Interview with Mark Bronner, November 10, 2016

CRANE: Okay. For official purposes, today is November 10, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane, and I'm part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I'm honored and delighted to be here today with Dr. Mark Bronner, a long-time resident of Louisville, a practicing physician, and someone who has a strong family presence in Kentucky, linking Jews in Lexington with Jews in Louisville. Although I've only known Mark for four years, I have enjoyed every minute I have spent with him. We are family. We are machatunim. He is the father of my wonderful daughter-in-law, Beth, and soon, God willing, we will share the role of grandparents to a sweet baby girl. I look forward to hearing the personal stories he has to share, and I'm eager to learn more about his family history, and his personal and professional life in Louisville as a Jewish physician. So let's begin by establishing some general information. What was your full name 00:01:00at birth?

BRONNER: Mark Howard Bronner.

CRANE: When and where were you born?

BRONNER: Louisville, Baptist Hospital--the old Baptist hospital which does not exist anymore.

CRANE: And when?

BRONNER: 1953.

CRANE: And what is your wife's full name, and where was she born?

BRONNER: My wife is--is--it depends on which middle name we're using. Susan--well, it's Susan Sims Bronner is, uh, I guess, what she uses.

CRANE: Sims?

BRONNER: Sims, uh-huh, which is her maiden name, and she was born in, uh, Kentucky, even though she lived most of her life in Indiana, before moving back to Kentucky.

CRANE: Okay. I know that you were married prior to Susan, to a woman who is the mother of your children, one of which, as I have already said, is my daughter-in-law. What is your first wife's name, and where was she born?

BRONNER: Uh, Anne Banks, and she was born in Louisville.

CRANE: I know that neither of your parents are alive, but for the record, and just because they are clearly a large part of your history and your stories, 00:02:00what are their names, and what where they--where were they born?

BRONNER: My mom was, uh, Betty Jane, or Betty Levy Bronner. My dad--Levy being her maiden name--my dad was born, uh, as Bob Bronner, no middle name, and he was born in Miami Beach.

CRANE: Was he a Bob or a Robert?

BRONNER: He was Robert, but everyone called him Bob.

CRANE: Okay, and he was born in?

BRONNER: Miami Beach--one of the--one of the few.

CRANE: What were your parents' occupations?

BRONNER: My--my mom was a housewife, and my dad was in real estate.

CRANE: And did your mother work outside the home at all, or help in the business?

BRONNER: She--

CRANE: And did your mother work outside the home at all, or help in the business?

BRONNER: She--she did not.

CRANE: Okay. And since I know that your maternal grandfather was not only a link between the Jews of Lexington and Louisville, but owned and operated, to some degree, the family business before your dad was part of it, what was his name and where was he from?

BRONNER: His name is Nat Levy, and he, um--his family originally emigrated from 00:03:00Russia. He came here when he was in his teens, and, uh--they, uh--most of the family ended up in Lexington, and uh so where he's from is, I guess, Russia.

CRANE: Do you know where in Russia?

BRONNER: We've heard different stories as far as exactly where they're from, so I couldn't tell you, but--I could not tell you for sure.

CRANE: What are the possible choices there?

BRONNER: I think he was, uh from the--more of the, uh--what's the bread basket area. Um, I'm not sure if, uh--honestly, we've heard so many different stories, uh, about the location, and, um, he really didn't want to talk about it much. He would tell stories about what he did during the Bolshevik revolution, which is why they fled from Russia, meaning, he was a rebel, he would blow up bridges, and, they would have to go in--yeah, they would have to go steal chickens so they had some food. Uh, he told some really, some interesting stories, but he 00:04:00wouldn't really talk much about where they were from.

CRANE: What were some of the stories?

BRONNER: Yeah--they would go and they would blow up bridges, um--

CRANE: --who's they?--

BRONNER: He and his brothers. They would--they would--and other people, in I guess what would be an underground, uh, but they would go out in the morning, and they would--somebody would give them something to blow something up, and they had a target, and they would go and they'd blow it up. And, uh, they didn't directly kill people. They were--they were just basically trying to slow people down, and um, there was a story--an interesting story, his sister, who, um, who, uh, apparently was a very pretty girl, and uh, some--the family was very wealthy in Russia, and, uh, there were some soldiers who came--I'm not sure exactly why, but they came and they were going to take the family away, and she came out, and--and basically talked them into coming back later in the day, and 00:05:00she said, "If you would come back later, you can all have me." And so she talked them into leaving and coming back later, which led to the family packing everything up that they could take in their hand, and they left, and that was the beginning of their emigration to the United States. So, and my--my-- great-grandfather got passage on a fishing boat, and--which was carrying some dead bodies, uh, across--yeah, I mean, it was bad times. He actually hid out underneath some dead bodies while he--while he got out of Russia. Then he made passage to the US and into Ellis Island, and the name--the family name was Vershvovsky--

CRANE: Would you spell that? Or, give it your best shot.

BRONNER: It's V-h-e-r-s-h-v-e-s-s-k-y, uh, or V-e-r-s--if I had it in writ--I have it in writing somewhere, but, are you going to make me write it down? I'll find it for you, how's that?

CRANE: Okay.

BRONNER: But the family name was Vershvovsky, and when my great-grandfather got to Ellis Island, and spoke not a lick of English, and they went apparently through a line, and they were asking them for their names, and the fellow in front of them said Levy. He thought it was the password to get into the country, so when they asked him his name, he didn't understand anything, but he thought he now knew the password, so he said Levy, and that became the family name. So, that's how they became Levys, and then when he got established, then he got the rest of the family there.

CRANE: That's a great story. Was he the only one on the boat?

BRONNER: Uh--that I don't know. I never heard that part of the story. He was the only one alive, as far as I know, yeah, aside from the people who were--who were--who were--who were sailing the boat.

CRANE: Okay. So, what was his wife's name, and where was she from?

BRONNER: You're asking--you're asking me things--I never knew her. You may know--know more than I do, as a historian.

CRANE: Uh Nat's wife.

BRONNER: Oh, Nat's wife--oh, that--oh, you see, I thought you were going back another generation.

CRANE: No, no.

BRONNER: Um, Nat's wife was Irma, Irma Wolf, and she was, uh--she was from the Louisville area.

CRANE: She was born here in Louisville?

BRONNER: I think she was born here in Louisville.

CRANE: Okay. We are also going to talk some about your paternal grandparents and their Louisville connections, so for the record, what were their names and where were they from?

BRONNER: Gosh. So, they--they originally were from New York, and, uh, they, uh--they uh --the one that we know the least about was Marvin, and, um, and he was, uh--I think he originally was from New York. They spent time here in Louisville. They ultimately moved to Miami, where he was in business for a number of years.

CRANE: Marvin was your grandfather?

BRONNER: Was my--was my--was my--

CRANE: --great--

BRONNER: Was my--was my paternal grandfather, who I never knew, because he passed away when my father was in his early teens, twelve or thirteen, and then 00:08:00his wife was Hannah, and, uh, I obviously never met her, because she--she--my mom knew her, so I'm not sure how old she was when she passed away, but I--but I-- never knew any grandparents on that side of the family.

CRANE: Do you know what their occupations were?

BRONNER: I think,uh, my grandmother on that side, uh, was a--was a -- housewife. I heard stories about her doing a lot of entertaining. Uh, I don't know if that was business related, or just that she was--uh, that she was social. And, my grandfather on that side was in several businesses. He was in the furniture business, and, uh, they apparently had the biggest furniture business in, uh, Miami, because Miami Beach was just a place you went to live so you didn't have to be in Miami, and, uh he, uh--he was also in the real estate business, which I didn't know until a couple of years ago, but he built a couple 00:09:00of things, and, um, and a number of other businesses along the way.

CRANE: Did your father talk much about them?

BRONNER: Very little. It was hard to get a story. My mom would tell us some stories, but, um, when I attempted to hear stories about my grandfather, at least, on that side, he was not--he would clam up. So, I know the little bit I've heard, but it's very little, and nothing from him.

CRANE: I know that you have two siblings. Uh, what are their names and ages relative to you?

BRONNER: I have, uh, Steven Robert Bronner, and he's two years younger. I have, uh, Hannah Barbara Bronner, and she goes by Barbara, and she's seven years younger, although I tell everybody she's older. She's not happy--

CRANE: --I'm sure she loves that one.

BRONNER: Yeah, she's not happy with me when I do that.

CRANE: (laughs) And what are their occupations?

BRONNER: My, um, my sister has a degree in social work, although she's not, uh--she took some time off to raise her family, so she's not been working for a 00:10:00couple of years. My brother is in real estate. He went into business with my father.

CRANE: And what are the names and ages of your children, your stepchildren, and your grandchildren--

BRONNER: --oh, you're going to be--

CRANE: --and this is a test.

BRONNER: Yeah, I'm sure.

CRANE: Okay.

BRONNER: So, my, uh--the oldest is John Wilhoit, who's my stepson, and he's, uh, thirty-six. Uh, my son Jonathan Bronner is about nine months younger. Uh, we then go down to Susan Wilhoit, my stepdaughter, who--they're step--they're stepchildren, so as long as I get the oldest one, I'm good. Um, and so, Susan is, uh, thirty-five, thirty-four, almost thirty--we're getting near March, so she'll be thirty-five then. And, uh, Meredith is a year younger, thirty-three. She's the one I can use, because I know she's exactly thirty years younger than I am. And then Beth is, uh, thirty-one--thirty-one, thirty-two. Yeah, uh, 00:11:00he's--Beth is a September baby, so sometime thirty-one, sometime thirty-two. September, she got to be thirty-two. Did I get them all? I think I got them all.

CRANE: How about the grandchildren?

BRONNER: The grandchildren. Well, there's seven grandchildren, and I have help over here with ages. Maya is eleven going on fifteen, good, and that's Maya Wilhoit, and then Isaac is fifteen going on really being nine? Well, nine going on twenty, I think, now. And then, uh, so those are the two oldest, and, uh, then if we get to Jonathan's children, we have Arianna, who is--God, this is really bad, you didn't prepare me for ages. Ari is five--yeah, Susan's going, "Five, yeah." Five going on fourteen. Her little brother is Levy, who is 00:12:00several years younger. He's three and a half, or so. And then we have Meredith and David's children. We have precocious Violet who's three, going on twenty-one, and then we have her younger sister, who is under six months, going on, gosh, I don't know--she's a handful. And then we have, uh, the almost, uh, uh--to arrive, youngest baby of Beth's, whose name I can't get out yet.

CRANE: That's okay. You did a good job there, Mark.

BRONNER: Well, thank you. (laughs) Usually I have to look at it in writing, because there's so many.

CRANE: And they're all darling.

BRONNER: They are.

CRANE: Let's talk some about how your family ended up in Louisville. I've listened to several previously recorded interviews of your mother and your father done into connection with the Louisville Jewish Community Center, and I've learned that your mother was born in Louisville, your father was born in 00:13:00Miami Beach, as you said, um, and where they were married, and then they moved into Louisville in 1951. What can you tell us about why they moved here, and why they left Miami?

BRONNER: Well, the main reason they moved here was, uh, was primarily because of job opportunity, which was, my grandfather, who said--what frequently happens, kids come back and go to work for me. And, so they basically, uh, they basically moved here for a job opportunity at that time, and, uh, I wasn't--even though I tell people that, that--that they had to get married, it was a shotgun wedding, I guess it wasn't, so--uh, but I did show up a couple years after they moved back here, so, uh--so primarily it was--it was opportunity, at that point. That's why they left, that's why they came here.

CRANE: And this was your grandfather's busi--

BRONNER: This was my grandfather's business. He was in real estate.

CRANE: And what did he do? What was that business like?

BRONNER: Well, obviously I wasn't there, but, um, mostly he--

CRANE: --you were almost there--

BRONNER: I was almost there, but I don't remember much of it. Uh, he would just--he would buy real estate, and, uh, manage real estate, sell real estate. He was involved in some home--not really home building. Uh,He, uh, he did have--he managed some small buildings, but I think mostly it was, he would, uh, he would buy some property, uh, build some shopping centers, and he would--he was involved in--it was more commercial than anything else at that time. It really wasn't, uh, um, uh, building subdivisions until my dad came, and then my dad wanted to be in the business, but he wanted to do something different, and so he started, uh, he started building, uh, personal homes, and subdivisions.

CRANE: What are some of the commercial sites that your grandfather was involved in in Louisville?

BRONNER: Um, the one is at Preston Highway--I'm trying to think of the name of 00:15:00the shopping center. Um, Glenview. Glenview Shopping Center. That's the one I remember, because he used to take us out there, um--there was a donut place. They used to go out there every week, and buy donuts, and bring them back, or, he'd take us out there and let us pick our own donuts.

CRANE: And what did you get?

BRONNER: What did we get? Oh, it was Dunkin Donut--donut sticks. They were the thing then.

CRANE: And, as far as the subdivisions, when your father started doing it, he built subdivisions. Where in Louisville?

BRONNER: Uh, went up Preston Highway, he built--I think it was called Blue Lick, uh, which were smaller homes, um--prices then were absurd, because I know he built our home that we lived in, um, for--for fifty years or more--he built that house. I think it cost $5,000, uh, at the time he built it, uh, but again, he was building it himself, you know, with his contractors. He was building subdivisions. Uh, he built houses out at Dale Hollow Lake, uh, when they were 00:16:00first building the lake. Um, he bought, uh--he built, uh, Dundee Estates, uh, developed one of those, uh, with my uncle Dick for a while, who had moved here briefly, um, and then, uh, he, uh, bought the Ross Todd estate with some partners, and he built, uh--he built, uh, private homes there, and then they had a, a real estate difficulty with builders--they were trying to unionize, and he finally became frustrated, and so he started building, uh, apartments, which is what he did basically the rest of his career.

CRANE: When you say your uncle Dick, was his name Richard?

BRONNER: Richard, right.

CRANE: Richard --, okay. And where is--and he passed away as well?

BRONNER: He did. Yeah.

CRANE: And he was a business partner of your--

BRONNER: He was a business partner, after he--he, uh--my uncle Dick did a lot of different things. Very interestingly, he was in the Dakotas, uh, trying to 00:17:00get in oil, and, uh, they were trying to--he had a lot of shale oil leases, and they--they thought they could develop that, and, it was not, uh--it was not something they were able to do very effectively at that time, so he had all kinds of, uh, of mineral rights, but it wasn't something they could mine very effectively, so he came back to Kentucky briefly. I think it was about '55, because his, uh, his son, uh, his son Rick was, I think--I've seen pictures of--of Rick at about a year old, and obviously, I was about two, so in that timeframe, he was here briefly, and he was here for several years. Um, and I know they were--they were working together, building part of Dundee Estates. They were looking at, uh, the--the funny story of the two of them, and there were many, was, they were both looking at construction sites, coming different directions, and they ran into each other, head-on--very slow, but head-on.

CRANE: In vehicles?

BRONNER: In vehicles, yeah. And, to hear the two of them scream at each other would have been funny. I was too young, but I've heard the story many times.

CRANE: What happened to the business?

BRONNER: Um, the business developed into, uh, numerous apartment projects, and, uh, Steve came into--my brother Steve came into the business, gosh, after he graduated from college, he went straight there, so that would have been, oh, '77 or thereabouts? And he went into business with dad, and, uh, they developed several other properties, and the business carries on today.

CRANE: And how is the business--besides ownership--changed over time?

BRONNER: Well, obviously, I think, things have modernized somewhat, because we have computers today, as opposed to--as opposed to, people used to come in and pay their rent, uh, in cash as opposed to--as opposed to check and bank check, 00:19:00and, um, I think, um, it was, um--well, my memory is, my grandfather going in and pulling the filters out of the furnaces, and washing them by hand himself, and then drying them outside and putting them back in. So, it was the Russian, uh, frugality, and then moving on to more practical things over time. Uh, and obviously we wouldn't try and do that nowadays.

CRANE: How old were you when your grandfather died?

BRONNER: Let's see. I was, uh--I was a medical student. It was--it would have been 197--well, actually, I had just graduated medical school. It was, uh--it would have been early July, 1980. I was born in '53.

CRANE: So what do you remember about him?

BRONNER: My grandfather?

CRANE: Yeah.

BRONNER: Oh, lots, yeah. Great guy, um, he--they lived several blocks away. 00:20:00They showed up every night, uh, um, an hour or so after dinner for a visit, and, uh, so, and, uh, so frequently we were still having dinner when they'd show up for a visit. He, uh, was, um, was a--a great big guy who was very fair. We'd sit and watch basketball games when they were on. He was always for the underdog. He'd be for--he'd be for UK [University of Kentucky] until UK was way ahead, and then he'd be for the underdog. And, he'd cheer for the underdog, or he'd be for U of L [University of Louisville], until U of L was ahead--he'd be for the underdog, and we would get all, "No, you don't want them to catch up," but he always wanted them to catch up. He thought it was fun for--to see some--to see a fair contest. He loved the horses. He went to Miles Park, uh, which doesn't, uh, exist anymore, and he would take Steve and I to Miles Park, he would sit us in a chair, he said, "What do you want to bet on?" And, he'd 00:21:00say, "Now, stay there and I'll be back," which was, uh, you know, the times where it was safe to do that, or at least presumed to be safe. You'd never do that today. And, he'd come back after the race was over and he'd say--he'd pull out two tickets, he said, "I'm sorry you lost," he'd say--and he'd pull out about four more, and say, "But I didn't." And, so we went numerous times with him. He loved his horses. He had a friend who, uh, who had a stable, who was developing racehorses. He'd go out with him. Uh, they actually named a racehorse after him, and, uh, have pictures of him riding horses. Um, and it goes on and on.

CRANE: Where was Miles Park?

BRONNER: Miles Park was at Algonquin Parkway.

CRANE: Oh, it's in Louisville.

BRONNER: In Louisville. It was in Louisville, yeah.

CRANE: Wow.

BRONNER: And, uh, it was a very small racetrack, before things got to where they are today, and, uh, it was--I don't know of the dates, because I was too young to know when it was going to be open, but--but it was, uh, you know, it 00:22:00was open, uh, pretty much, I think, when Churchill wasn't, it was open. So they raced a lot out there. And it burned down, and then they closed it.

CRANE: You said that your mother's given name was Betty Jane--

BRONNER: --Levy--

CRANE: --Levy Bronner, and then it became Bronner. And, clearly, um, she was a gracious and much-loved lady, but I know her as Gigi, which is how I was introduced to her. How did she get to be known as Gigi?

BRONNER: Uh, my son, who was the oldest of the--of the grandchildren, uh, I think he named her. I'm not sure--I don't remember exactly when, but, um, I don't know if that was--if that was short for "Grandma," or whatever it was, but he named her Gigi, and it stuck. So all the other kids call her Gigi. Matter of fact, almost everybody called her Gigi.

CRANE: Did you call her Gigi, your mother?

BRONNER: I did, yeah. I used to always call her Gigi as well.

CRANE: Describe your mother's role in your family and in the Louisville 00:23:00community, if you can.

BRONNER: I--I'm not sure I can. I mean, it was, h--in the family, she, um, she took care of all the, uh, of, uh, all the things that my dad did not. My dad was gone, so she was in the, uh, in the housemaker role, the homemaker role, which was huge in the '50s, and very much what people, what people did. You know, one spouse worked, the other spouse raised the family, which might well not be a bad idea nowadays, but it's not the way things are. She took us where we needed to go, she made sure we got there, um, she took care of the house, um, she entertained when we had people over, which was often. She was involved in charity work. Uh--

CRANE: What kinds of charities?

BRONNER: A lot of things through the JCC [Jewish Community Center]. Uh, a lot of, uh, other local charities. She did some things for Jewish Hospital. Um, um, honestly, I'd have to look at some of the lists. The list was huge, you 00:24:00know, when she--when she passed away, and I saw the list, I was stunned to see how much she did.

CRANE: You know, one of my favorite Jewish Lexington stories is about the three Hyman Levys that once lived there, and to keep them straight, we used to call them Little Hyman, or Shoe Hyman--some people called him Shoe Hyman; Fat Hyman; and Chicken Hyman. Uh, one of those Hymans--I guess it was Chicken Hyman--was related to you. Can you explain that relationship, and how he became known as Chicken Hyman?

BRONNER: Well, that part of the family, and, uh, my grandfather, because I've heard those stories frequently, uh, they would, uh, they made a living by riding the chicken train, which I can't imagine, but apparently there was a train that went to market in Chicago, and they filled it with a car full of chickens, and 00:25:00they made sure the chickens were safe, they were fed, and nobody stole them. And so they took them to be butchered in Chicago, and I think that's where the name came from.

CRANE: And where did this train start from, here?

BRONNER: You know, I don't know where it started from, but I know they got on it in Lexington, or somewhere out in the country. I suspect they probably brought the chickens to Lexington, they got on the train, and then went there from Lexington.

CRANE: And so, how are you connected to Chicken Hyman?

BRONNER: Well, uh, Nat was the son of Chicken Hyman, and he became one of the chickens, I guess. Um, and--because he rode the train, because I would hear stories about that.

CRANE: Okay, so he was your great-uncle?

BRONNER: Uh, right.

CRANE: Okay.

BRONNER: Right. Because the whole family--when they emigrated, the majority of the family, they emigrated to Lexington, so when the Lexington ties, fortunately or unfortunately, are coming back to me, because the kids are--(laughs)--the 00:26:00kids seem to be coming back to Lexington.

CRANE: Okay. Um, like many Jewish immigrants, your mother's family name was not originally Levy, but it was changed, and I know you've said this once before, and you've told the story, but just for the record, can you spell it again for me?

BRONNER: Oh, so you want to see if I do it the same way twice.

CRANE: Well, actually, we're doing this so that the person who transcribes this can spell it correctly.

BRONNER: Okay. I think it's--I think it's actually V-e-r-s--I don't know if there's a C or not--V-e-r-s-h-v-o-v-s-k-u, Vershvovsky.

CRANE: Okay, thank you.

BRONNER: And if you ask my wife, it's very funny to hear her pronounce it.

CRANE: Okay. Where was your mother's family from, and how did your mother's family end up in Kentucky.

BRONNER: Uh, I, uh, well, again, my grandfather was from Russia, um, and ended 00:27:00up in Lexington, and, uh, and, uh, met my mother--uh, met my grandmother here, fell in love with her, courted her, and, uh, ended up here, because this is where she was from.

CRANE: I've heard some family rumors that your grandfather had some connections with Al Capone. (laughs) What can you tell me about those rumors?

BRONNER: Those were some of the few stories we could get out of my dad.

CRANE: And this is your--the Bronner side of the family?

BRONNER: Yeah.

CRANE: Okay.

BRONNER: They lived all around Miami, um, and the story we heard was, they lived on an island. The next island over was where Al Capone lived, and his son, Sonny Capone, uh, was a friend of, uh, of my uncle Dick's, and my uncle Hank's, and thus, my dad, so they all were social, and they would just take their little boat from their backyard--they lived on an island on the Venetian Causeway, and they were on the water in the bay, and they would get into a boat, 00:28:00and they would go to--to the island where Al Capone lived, and go spend the day with Sonny, and vice versa, and I think Al was pretty--was pretty old, and not out very much, and functional, uh, but some of his, uh--it's funny, my mom used to call him, uh, called them his henchmen--were always there, um--because she actually, you know, she knew Sonny. Sonny actually went into the restaurant business when he got older in Miami, and, uh, so when they were younger, they would go to the restaurant, or when we went back, they would go to the restaurant, and, um, so, I don't know the tie-in. Uh, my brother and I have talked, and my sister, um--as we've gotten older, we have suspected that the furniture business--you know, you hear all these stories, that--that maybe they were--they were, um, taking some of the mob money, and they were running it through the business. I don't really know, but it makes for a good story.

CRANE: It does.

BRONNER: But I can't tell you that it's not true, either.

CRANE: I've learned from other interviews that before your father moved to Louisville, there were other Bronner family members that were living here. Two of them, um, I'd like to ask you about them. First, there was an Augusta Fox Bronner, who uh--who from what I could Google about her, was quite notable. Tell me what you know about Augusta Fox Bronner.

BRONNER: I think you know more than I do, uh, because you've Googled her recently. Uh, I used to hear about her from my mom, uh, that she lived--(laughs)--really what I heard was that she was here, she was a teacher, um, that she was very progressive, that she had a college degree, um--I would say Google her, you'll get more, if you want to put into it what you know, because you've Googled her recently--that would be great. We were talking about it beforehand, so--

CRANE: Um, I know that she lived, uh, from 1881 to 1966, and she was, um, was 00:30:00the daughter of Hannah Fox and Gustav Bronner, uh, and she was a clinical psychologist with expertise in juvenile delinquency. She taught at the Normal School for Women in Louisville, and she taught at Yale. Um, according to an interview that I listened to that your mother did, um, she was told by her pat--your mother's--your paternal grandmother, uh, that Augusta was your aunt, and that when they moved to Louisville, they should look her up. So, uh, did you ever meet her?

BRONNER: Not that I know, but, I mean, you're talking about--I would have been--I would have been very young at that point, because if she passed away--you said '66?

CRANE: Um-hm.

BRONNER: So, I mean, I would have been a kid.

CRANE: And you don't know if she has family here, or--

BRONNER: You know, there--there's only one other Bronner family here. Um, we 00:31:00know from, um, going way back, distant, that they all came from--they all came out of New York originally. They, uh--but that family is a Catholic family, uh, so we don't know their origin, obviously, we being Jewish family. Uh, I know a number of, uh--of the members of that family, but we don't know any direct tie-in to them.

CRANE: And what about Dr. Herbert Bronner, who was, again, according to your mother, was associated with the Jewish Hospital in its very, very early years?

BRONNER: Right.

CRANE: What do you know about him?

BRONNER: I know he was, uh, he was a staff president at one time. Um, I know his name was on a plaque in the entry--that's the first I knew about--well, when I started working at Jewish Hospital, you look at this plaque, and you see Bronner, and then you say, okay, who was this? Who was this guy? I've never 00:32:00heard of him. So, he was very prominent in the medical community, but I don't know a lot of details. I think he did some OB at a time when they didn't specialize in OB, uh, so most people were--were family practitioners, and they may have done more one--one area than another, but that's really--I don't know a lot of details. So, once again, you've been doing all the research--you may know more than I do.

CRANE: You know, the only thing that I know was, it was very strange that, um, you could be an OB/GYN, and also be doing hearing.

BRONNER: Um-hm.

CRANE: I mean, it was a strange--

BRONNER: --you did everything, yeah--

CRANE: --connection, um, with specialties.

BRONNER: Yeah. Well, there were no specialties, that's the thing, you know, so, specialties developed over time, but--but really, um--let's see, I was--in 1968, I fell through a glass door, and cut a flexor tendon on a hand, which meant that--that it had to be repaired surgically. There were no hand 00:33:00specialties. Dr. Kleinert, who is well known here, he was starting to take an interest in hand, but there was no specialty. So, if you were interested and you liked it, you set up shop and said, "Hey, I do--I do hand surgery, come see me, um, but I still will operate on your abdomen too at the same time." So, it's just over, you know, over the last thirty years or more that things really started to--to specialize, and, um, so everyone did everything.

CRANE: Okay. Your childhood. What was Judaism like in your family growing up?

BRONNER: Boy, that's a--how was it in my family? My mother was--first of all, we were--we grew up Reform. We went to Brit Shalom, which doesn't exist anymore.

CRANE: What was the name of it?

BRONNER: Brit Shalom. And--it merged with, uh, it merged with, uh, another temple, to become The Temple, which is the big Reform synagogue here. Uh, it 00:34:00was relatively small. Um, it, um, it was, um--it was somewhat family oriented, um, I want to say small--you know, as a kind, it's hard to gauge. What--what looked big as a kid was really pretty small, so I don't really know how many families were there, but, uh, a number of, uh, a number of those--I think five of those families, when they joined The Temple to merge, split off to become, uh, to become Temple Shalom, which has now grown to a sizable synagogue here. Um, what the synagogue--what the temple--we went for the high holidays, uh, we went to the Sunday school every week, uh, we went for some of the, uh, for some of the, uh, Jewish holidays. My mom was kind of the one who, uh, who pushed 00:35:00that we, uh, be actively involved in religion. Uh, the, uh--it's been very interesting, because being, uh--there was originally no bat mitzvah then. Girls didn't have anything done. Uh, bar mitzvah was more or less elective. You--you went to Sunday school, and you were confirmed, and/or you got bar mitzvahed. Um, I decided to be confirmed, so I was not bar mitzvahed. It wasn't--it just wasn't as big a deal in the Reform temple as it--as it seems to have gotten today. Um, again, my mom was the one who at least appeared to be more religious, as far as pushing things. My dad was the guy who'd take us to Sunday school, and he'd say, "Let's cut today. Come on, let's--we're going to have a sugar and cupcake run, and go to the dairy, and, uh, I'll have coffee, and, uh, 00:36:00we'll have ice cream and donuts." Uh, so that happened every so often. It probably wasn't the best example in the long run, but--but he did that. Uh, I don't know what his Jewish background was in Florida, but--but I do know that he was--he was far more religious, uh, than he ever let on when we were kids. Um, he, uh--he was always the usher at high holidays, and the joke was that the ushers would get everybody inside and then they would go and shoot craps, uh, while we were in synagogue--you know, a joke, obviously, but, uh, but, um, you know, that was--that was--my mom was one example, my dad was the less religious example, and we all fell somewhere in between. Now, we all had a Jewish identity, but I don't think that we--that we're--go to synagogue religious, like we see in the, in the other synagogues, and, uh, and I think everything has kind 00:37:00of progressed, uh, more today. I think it's much different today than it was then, although--although I think--i think, uh, we've become much more of a melting pot today than we ever were then.

CRANE: How did your family celebrate holidays?

BRONNER: Which ones?

CRANE: Any of them.

BRONNER: Well, obviously holidays were always family--family events. We were always together. Um, we invited other relatives who would come if they could come, but, uh, but we were always together. There were, uh, there were things that were, um--you didn't plan to do anything else. Now, it was hard to do anything else, because the stores were closed, uh, there was no place to go, you know, you got your food in preparation for it in advance, and, uh, you just didn't plan to go out, because there was nothing to do. If you went out, you went out for a ride, because there was nowhere to stop, including gas stations, so you better gas up before.

CRANE: What did your parents teach you about Judaism?

BRONNER: I think they taught me that it was an identity, uh, more than anything else, uh--

CRANE: What do you mean by that?

BRONNER: That there was, uh--well, I wasn't--well, I wasn't a temple-going Jew, I never got very much from it. Uh, I always felt that to go to temple and have somebody lead me in a ceremony that didn't allow me to think, uh, that was never something that I enjoyed very much or got much out of. Now, my mom made sure that we went, but I think my dad taught me more that you need to consider who you are and what you get from being Jewish, and, uh, and again, that identity was identified with the Jewish people. I identified with other people, obviously, but I knew that I was Jewish, and, uh, I knew that it was--I won't say a way of life, but I guess it kind of was a way of life, at that time, especially.

CRANE: How were your parents', uh, relationship to Judaism different than their parents' relationship to Judaism?

BRONNER: Boy. Um, I can't tell you about my paternal parents, because I don't know, uh, but again, my dad certainly had Jewish training, and my uncles had Jewish training. My dad had unique training, because he was recruited and went to a Catholic high school because of athletics, so he was also pretty well Catholic trained too. Um, he used that as an advantage, but he was obviously Jewish. Um, from my mom's side, I think my grandmother was, uh, a little more liberal than my grandfather. My grandfather was more religious, and he would go to the Reform temple, and he would go to--he would, uh--he was at home anywhere, and I'm not sure if that was his--his Russian background, or his acceptance into 00:40:00the Jewish community when they got here. I don't really know. That really was something we never talked about as kids. You know, I don't think we thought about it. Maybe more so as an adult, but it was another thing we never had a chance to ask.

CRANE: What--um, I know there's an age difference, a couple years between you and Steve and Barbara, but what were your Jewish experiences? How were they different?

BRONNER: I don't know that they were that much different in that--in that--in those years. Um, you know, we participated in--again, we went--we went to temple. Um, Barbara wasn't eligible, uh, to be bat mitzvahed, because it wasn't anything you thought about. Um, but we were deeply involved in the JCC, spent a lot of time there, um, were involved in--in Jewish clubs, which were very big, 00:41:00and are not so much anymore. Um, pretty much if you were a Jewish kid then, you joined a Jewish club, which gave you exposure to--indirect exposure to other Jewish kids, and Jewish girls, which was very big at the time, uh, still would be, I suppose, but it was very big then as a kid, and, uh, I think that's probably the thing that, uh, that involves you more than anything else in that part of Jewish community life.

CRANE: What were the clubs like?

BRONNER: It was social, but there were also--you know, there was--well, it ran the gamut. There were those that were very--uber-religious, and there were those that weren't so religious, but the religion in the ones that weren't religious, uber-religious, was still there. It was subtle, but it was there. Uh, I obviously gravitated to the one that was the more popular one, which, if I 00:42:00had to do again, I don't know if that's where I'd be, but, uh--just because of what I know today, but, uh, it was more or less a matter of, they were driven by athletics, for the most part, at that time, and then when you got in, there was a social component, and the social component entailed also the--the religious component, which you didn't really know as you were doing it, but as you'd become an adult, you'd start to see that.

CRANE: And these were all Jewish clubs associated with the--

BRONNER: --with the JCC, yeah--

CRANE: --the JCC. In one of the interviews that I listened to, I think it was of your father's, talked about what--it was his impression of what a wonderful opportunity his children had by participating in the JCC here in Louisville--

BRONNER: --um-hm--

CRANE: --and thought it just did wonders for you all. And, I'm just, um--what 00:43:00was the name of your club? What kinds of friends did you make? Um, do you still have those friendships, those relationships with the people that you grew up with, in--in those social circles?

BRONNER: Um, we were at a point where--I was in a--in a club called, uh, Pi, Pi Tau Pi. There were, I think, five or six different clubs at the time. Um, most of the people that I was affiliated with then moved away. Um, we actually started a faction where three clubs used to have social things, uh, unsanctioned social things together, because there were a number of us who were friends, and it was like any other--uh, they used to go around, and they would choose who they wanted in the club, and then they would come to the house and say, "Hey," you know--and you would list who you were interested in, but they would come to 00:44:00the house and say, um, "Hey, you're in our club," and you'd go with them, and, uh, and that was kind of how you got involved, and, um, it was, um, it was a good place to be in high school, because it filled your time, it kept you out of trouble, uh, it got you into, uh--got you into sports, and it got you into social life. Most of my friends from there moved away, they live in different places, um, different--different circles, um, and I have--I have friends locally--I wouldn't say that they're close friends, but, uh, but people I know well, from that time. But also, a lot of people, as I said, I'm not sure I would go in that direction today, because I have many, many friends who were in others of these clubs, and who might well be considered better friends than they were then. Uh, I think you learn things as you grow up, learn things about yourself as you grow up.

CRANE: What kind of--did you live in a Jewish neighborhood, if that's even a 00:45:00possibility? Um, there have been other people that I've spoken with, um, that have shared that they grew up in more of a neighborhood where there were lots of Jewish kids, and they went from their neighborhood to the JCC. Just wondering if the neighborhood that you grew up in, or the schools that you went to, if there was a strong Jewish population there?

BRONNER: Percentage-wise, I couldn't say. Yes, there was a strong Jewish population, um, or either that or we affiliated with those people, because we were involved in the Jewish club scene, but we were--we were a pretty mixed subdivision. We had a lot of different people of a lot of different religions, which really, for the most part, never came up. We didn't go to church with them, they didn't go to--to temple with us, uh, but we were all outside playing after school. We weren't inside--there was nothing to do inside. Uh, so we 00:46:00were all outside, and we'd go outside and we'd ride our bikes to somebody's house, and we'd do whatever--we'd play, whatever games we play--football, baseball, uh, and many nights, we would end up eating dinner at some neighbor's house, and again, uh, and maybe dinner at our house, but I don't know that it was specifically Jewish-oriented. I really don't think so.

CRANE: What was the non-Jewish community's reaction to your Jewishness?

BRONNER: I don't think it ever came up that I was aware of. Now, it may have been on the parental side, but--but I was never aware of any bias, for or against. At least, not where--not where I lived. If there--if it was there, I was not aware of it.

CRANE: Describe if you connected with any--besides the larger Jewish community that you connected with through the JCC, did you connect with even a bigger 00:47:00Jewish community? Did you all take field trips, uh, did you go to Cincinnati? Obviously, Lexington's a smaller Jewish community, so you're probably not going to go there, but--

BRONNER: No, we weren't going to go there. UK was there. No, we were all U of L fans.

CRANE: I'm going to ignore that one.

BRONNER: Honestly, really, there were a lot of people who did. Uh, the girls seemed to do that more than the men. There were some athletic--there were some athletic trips, if you, uh, had a very, uh--and again, basketball, we had a very good basketball team, uh, there were some national tournaments, um, uh--those would be in Atlanta, for the most part, but really, it was pretty much local, at least that I was involved in.

CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual growing up?

BRONNER: Wow. My most vivid memory. Gosh. Um, that's a hard question. You 00:48:00should have asked me that before, to think about it. I would say--and it's a crazy memory, honestly, but I think probably the most vivid memory was Sukkos, and, uh, going--they used to have big bushels of apples, and as a kid, you'd get to go and pick an apple. You'd go to services, you'd get to go pick an apple. It's a crazy memory, but that's probably it.

CRANE: That's okay. Before we get into your adult life, is there anything else unique or special that you would like to share about your family background or your childhood years?

BRONNER: Wow. Uh, nothing specific, unless you want to lead me somewhere.

CRANE: Well, I might in a little bit.

F2: What about schools when you were a child, and other Jewish kids in the schools that you went to? Which schools did you go to?

BRONNER: I went to Belknap Elementary, it was on Speed Avenue, which hasn't 00:49:00existed for a number of years, went to Highland Junior High--we went through sixth grade in elementary school, seventh, eighth, and ninth was junior high school, so I went to Highland, which is a middle school now, and then went to Atherton for high school. And--and it was mixed--you know, there was some Jewish kids, there were lots of other kids there. Uh, I had lots of Jewish friends growing up, because--I think primarily because of, uh, people in the Jewish club scene. I mean, I think that really was the glue that held that together.

CRANE: You mentioned, um, just a little while ago that it's different now. What did you mean by that?

BRONNER: Uh, when my kids grew up, that really wasn't something that--I don't know that it didn't exist, but it wasn't a priority. There were, uh, I think, somewhere--and probably because of decreased involvement, it--it turned into one or two clubs, and, uh, if you wanted to join, you came in and you joined whatever you wanted. Um, the involvement, the numbers were down, the numbers at 00:50:00JCC were down--it just, uh, it just was not the same, and my kids chose not to be involved in that.

CRANE: You know, did you grow up in a time period where you had high school clubs? Not Jewish--necessarily Jewish clubs at the JCC, but just high school clubs?

BRONNER: You mean so you could say on the yearbook that you were in the chess club, and the--

CRANE: Not the chess club, social clubs.

BRONNER: No, there were not. No. If there were, we were too busy participating in our clubs through the JCC, so that's really--that's really what we were into.

CRANE: So where did you go to college?

BRONNER: I went to Indiana University, um, started there in 1971, and, um, did not graduate--I graduated from U of L. Uh, I was at IU [Indiana University] for--well, really for three years, but really only had about two and a half years of credit, because I became--I got ill, and had to come home and be 00:51:00hospitalized. I went back, finished nine--nine hours one semester--the next semester, went back, got sick, had to go back, was hospitalized, went back, finished six hours--the next semester, went back, got sick, and dropped out, and took the rest of the year off, which was actually a--it was what needed to happen, but it was--in retrospect, it was pretty nice as far as teaching me that you didn't have to just keep up like you felt like you had to in one through twelve years, because it didn't seem to matter. So, after that, I--I enrolled at U of L--University of Louisville--and graduated from there.

CRANE: And when did you graduate from U of L?

BRONNER: If I was on track, I would have graduated in '75. I graduated in '76.

CRANE: And, what did you study?

BRONNER: I went in pre-med, science major, and stayed that.

CRANE: While you were in college, whether it be IU or U of L, describe any 00:52:00affiliation that you had with a Jewish organization, such as a fraternity or Hillel.

BRONNER: Right. I, uh, initially went into the dorm, because I wanted, uh, not to make any rash decisions about what I did, and after one semester, joined ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau], and moved into ZBT the next year.

CRANE: What was that like?

BRONNER: The fraternity?

CRANE: Um-hm.

BRONNER: When I joined ZBT, it was when fraternities were very down, they were very much on the outs, except at IU, fraternities were running strong, and it was--it was a great big fraternity house that, uh, had room to house about 120 people, which was massive, when you think about it, and they pretty much did. It was overflow at the time. It was, uh--it was a fun place to be. It was a good place to be. It was much like, uh, much like the people that I had, 00:53:00uh--that I had been with, uh, in high school, except much broader. Um, some of my friends from high school joined that fraternity. Um, it was, um--gosh, again, it wasn't the more religious fraternity, but there was religious--but there was--you know, they were--it was more of a Reform type atmosphere, and so there were--there were--we celebrated services, um, we had a lot of things that were social, and, uh, people generally did very well academically. A lot of bright guys there.

CRANE: And when you say that there was some--obviously it was a Jewish fraternity, there was some Jewishness to it, can you describe more of what that was like?

BRONNER: Well, let me also say there were a number of people in the fraternity who were not Jewish, and, uh, they just liked the fraternity and they liked the 00:54:00people there and they liked what they were doing. What was it like? Uh, there were some people who were more religious, and they would go to services. Um, actually, my first roommate at ZBT--actually, I had two, but one of them, his parents had been concentration camp survivors, and, uh, he was exceptionally religious, and he was involved with Hillel, and, uh, he was at services daily, uh, which was an interesting experience for me, because I'd not been exposed to anyone with that background, or that degree of, uh, being religious until him, and, uh, actually one morning I woke up, and I thought he was--I joked with him, I thought he was committing suicide--he would lay tefilin, and so he would strap himself up, and I'd go, "No, don't do it, nothing can be that bad!" So, he taught me a lot, uh, and we've communicated over the years, and uh, um, I have 00:55:00another--my other roommate, who was not Jewish--I have no idea what happened to him. Never seen or heard from him. So--and then, a number of other people, um, in that class, who I see or hear from intermittently, uh, probably more intermittent as the years go by. Uh, I think some of the social media makes it easier to look people up--that's been fun. Um, but, again, it was--I guess it was a situation where you could have as much Jewish, uh, involvement with--it was multiple different groups, you know--it, uh, it crossed all borders, so, uh, so you could be involved in everything, or nothing. It was very non-judgmental--that was one of the nice things about it.

CRANE: Did you have any affiliation with Hillel during that time that you were there?

BRONNER: Uh, not really. I was invited numerous times, but not really. As a 00:56:00matter of fact, high holidays, my roommate, uh, had me on the schedule with an aliyah, and I told him I had class, I couldn't go. I just--it was not--it was just not something I was--he was trying to get me involved, and it was not something that I was ready to be involved in at that time.

CRANE: Um, what was your social life like while you were at IU?

BRONNER: It was, uh, interesting. We had fraternity parties, uh, every weekend, um--had dated a number of different people, had a girlfriend here, uh, who would come up, uh, who would come up, uh, intermittently, uh, and we were--it was a great social life. IU's a great place. When I--when I left, my brother subsequently went there and graduated from IU, my sister subsequently went to IU and graduate from IU--must have been a good place, I set a good example.

CRANE: Okay, so you left IU and you came back--

BRONNER: --to Louisville--

CRANE: --to Louisville, and then what happened?

BRONNER: I went from Louisville undergrad to med school, at U of L, and graduated from there.

CRANE: And how was that transition?

BRONNER: I graduated from undergrad, and, uh, a few months later, started medical school. I mean, it was pretty seamless--I didn't have to go very far, I didn't have to do anything--the only thing that I did in the meantime was, I got married between undergrad and grad school. That was the only transition.

CRANE: Okay. Um, you married Anne between--after you graduated from college--

BRONNER: --college--

CRANE: --and before you started medical school.

BRONNER: Right.

CRANE: I'm assuming she was the one that came up to visit you at IU.

BRONNER: She was. She was.

CRANE: Describe the Jewish population of students, or the faculty, at U of L when you were in medical school.

BRONNER: Wow.

CRANE: Were there other Jewish kids in your--

BRONNER: Um, yeah, there were. I mean, a couple of my close friends were Jewish. Uh, I don't know that I sought them out--I guess we found each other, uh--and, uh, I don't think it was anything that was planned, I think it just happened.

CRANE: How does that happen?

BRONNER: I just think it's your background, you know? Sometimes--sometimes you'll hear a name, and you'll figure that guy's Jewish, or she's Jewish, and you--I don't know, I think, at least at the outset, when you don't know somebody, it set a common ground. Again, I think it's--it wasn't, uh, it just allowed you to--to feel like you came from the same place, and so--

CRANE: And are you still friends with these people? Did you stay in contact with them?

BRONNER: Um, a couple. A couple. Again, it's been a couple years.

CRANE: Since you graduated?

BRONNER: Yeah, a couple. I graduated in 1980, so it's been a few.

CRANE: Um, what was the--was there a Jewish medical staff, I mean, uh, at the university?

BRONNER: They were scattered. There were a few. There were a few. There was--

CRANE: Were they supportive, or, did you connect with them, with--

BRONNER: --you know, they--not really. You know, uh, they were there. I don't think they showed favoritism toward anyone. I really don't.

CRANE: And where did you do your internship or residency?

BRONNER: I went to Charleston, South Carolina to Medical University of South Carolina.

CRANE: And you did both of them there?

BRONNER: Internship, residency, and fellowship. I stayed for five years.

CRANE: Okay. How old were your children when you moved back to Louisville? I know they were--were they all born in South Carolina?

BRONNER: All born in South Carolina.

CRANE: And then you moved back to Louisville?

BRONNER: Moved back to Louisville. Beth, the youngest, was six months. Meredith was about two, Jonathan--Jonathan, uh, was almost--was about four.

CRANE: And what were holidays like in your home as your children were growing up?

BRONNER: Uh, holidays were fun, uh, whole family was there, uh, we would go 01:00:00to--to--to parents' houses, or they would come to our house, and it was a big family gathering, and my siblings that were here, they--we would all get together, one house or another.

CRANE: As an adult, explain your reasoning for either a continuing affiliation with your temple or why you've not continued.

BRONNER: Um, I was a member of Temple Shalom from 1985, when I moved back to Louisville, until recently--until about two years ago. Um, I was very fond of the rabbi, who's since--now retired, uh, Stanley Miles, um, I was involved in--in helping to develop the new building, uh, like a number of people there--children were involved, it was--Stanley was very good with the kids, as far as education. Uh, kids all moved away, girls decided not to come back home 01:01:00to be married, which seems to be the latest trend--they used to all come back home to be married, and now they want to be married where their friends are and where they're going to live, so they were married in other cities, and, uh, and there were some issues going on with, uh, with Temple Shalom, and family, so I dropped out of Temple Shalom, um,--which I won't get into, but there were issues and reasons, and I just decided that I would go to The Temple, the large Reform, uh, temple, which was, um, which was where my family went, and they were always going to come here. My mom went, and--basically what I found is that as the kids were going, I was going where my mom was, more than anything else. It was family.

CRANE: And where do your siblings go? Do they go to the same temple?

BRONNER: They go The Temple--the whole family, yeah.

CRANE: What supports and challenges were there for you in Louisville raising 01:02:00your--your kids Jewish, and did you actively--

BRONNER: The biggest support was family, I think, um, you know, um, having the family there on both sides was huge. That was the biggest reason probably to move back to Louisville. Um, I loved Charleston, I would have stayed there, but family, and, just opportunity, and cover--but probably family was the biggest reason to come back.

CRANE: Tell me about your children's involvement in their--uh, in the the Jewish community here as they were growing up.

BRONNER: Um, gosh. They started at Knesset Israel preschool, uh, that's where they started, uh, made a lot of friends there, some of whom have been lifelong friends, continue to be. Now, obviously, they've got another thirty years or so 01:03:00to get to where I am, and life takes people down different roads, but--but many of them have lifelong friends that are here, in different cities, and different places, and last weekend we were just, uh, at a wedding with a lot of Meredith's childhood friends that they went to preschool with, and, uh, and they had all become friends, uh, so my son and youngest daughter--all three of my kids were there, so, uh, so there was a--you know, there was a close relationship with all of them, and I think you get all that interrelationship, and if you can make it go as many years as this has gone, uh, that's good. Uh, you know, again, um, then they went to other schools, they were--and at that point, the JCC had declined some, so they really weren't involved in the club scene, but there was a time when they took all the confirmation classes, and they started teaching 01:04:00them together from all the different temples and synagogues. And, our rabbi, Stanley Miles, was deeply involved in that, and I think that got them involved in the--they met a lot of other kids that maybe they didn't know, uh, they started to have relationships from the standpoint of doing things with these other kids, and so, I think, starting at KI preschool and going forward, I think, was big. I can't tell you, relative to going to school and high school, but again, I know with my son, some of his closest friends even today, even though they live in different cities, uh, were, uh, my son's best friend he met at three. So, you know, so I think it obviously had an impact, and they went through school together.

CRANE: Knesset is a more Conservative--

BRONNER: --no--

CRANE: Orthodox, okay, now it's Conservative--

BRONNER: --it was very Orthodox at that time--

CRANE: --back--okay. Now it's--

BRONNER: --uh, it's kind of gone Conservative, Orthodox, middle ground, in order to survive.

CRANE: Conservadox. (laughs)

BRONNER: Yeah. In order to survive, yes.

CRANE: Okay. And so, why did you all make that choice, growing up in a Reformed temple, practicing Reform Judaism, why did you choose to send your kids to a more Conservative / Orthodox preschool?

BRONNER: Uh, knew people there, it was what was felt to be the best preschool at that time, though there was some others that we could have gone to, and in South Carolina, you know, you went to some of the generic preschools for a while, with my son, at least, and, uh, this was just a good place to be, and probably at the back of our minds, there was some Jewish connection there too, but again, it was citywide--I mean, it wasn't just Jewish kids there, it was felt to be a high-quality place.

CRANE: You know, you have a long history with the Louisville Jewish community. What are some of your thoughts on how the Jewish community has changed over your lifetime?

BRONNER: Um, gosh, I think, um, I've seen more people go farther away, their kids go farther away and not come back, which spreads people far and wide. Um, I think probably the biggest thing is intermarriage, which is not just here, I mean, it's everywhere. I think that's probably the biggest thing.

CRANE: How has, uh, the role of having a Jewish mayor--how do you see the role of Jerry Abramson on the Jewish community at large, or Jews in Louisville?

BRONNER: Well, he lied to us. He was supposed to be mayor for life. No, that was always the joke when Jerry was the mayor. I mean, I think it was something 01:07:00that the Jewish community silently took pride in, but didn't talk about outside of the Jewish community. He was highly involved in things. I know he had--he had, uh, interest in Jewish events, but again, I think he was very fair, and he, he showed his interest in everything. I think it was pretty much--I don't think he was especially unfair to anything, and I think he was a very good mayor.

CRANE: Do you think it changed anything towards lessening any anti-Semitic views in the community, if there are any or have been?

BRONNER: I mean, there obviously are, there obviously were, and some of them obviously still exist. I think they're--they're less, and I think they're less vocal. Um, you know, I can't say whether that had a lot to do with it or not. 01:08:00I would guess probably, over time, it did. Um, obviously it must have--he got elected, they knew he was Jewish, so it must have had some impact, because if you went back many years, it would never have happened, um, but--uh, I don't know that I've thought about that aspect of it, but I'm sure it did change things. I know when I was in--you know, I thought when I was in high school, we were working at polls for elections, and some of us got sent out--Dixie Highway, which was the south end of Louisville, which was--which was an area where, uh, Jewish people did not live, and I think many of the people there, uh, had never seen Jewish people before. I don't know how they found out--somebody said something that was not purely nice about the candidate, or someone, and they--and someone said, "Well, you know, I'm Jewish," and it was very interesting, uh, because I don't think they--I don't think they'd ever seen anyone who was Jewish, and recognized the fact that you couldn't tell us apart 01:09:00from anybody else.

CRANE: What's been the role of Israel of Zionism in your activities and of your identity as a Jew?

BRONNER: You know, I--I personally consider myself to be a Jewish-American. I have, um--I have not been particularly involved from that standpoint, because I, uh--I think they do need support, but, there were a lot of underhanded ways they approached me when I was younger, and because of that, I think I was very turned off by it.

CRANE: Would you like to just explain what you mean by underhanded?

BRONNER: Um, when--when they--again, probably one simple thing from when I was a teen, they would, um, they would have what's now morphed into Super Sunday, 01:10:00and they would--they would call you up and ask how much you want to give, and they'd say, "Your brother's giving $5, don't you want to beat him?" And then they'd call my brother back and say, "Well, he's giving $8, don't you want to beat him?" Um, you know, as an adult, I can make my own decisions, but, there was a degree of competitiveness that was going on, and I don't think that was the right way to approach things. Uh, again, those were people who were just interested in things, but, um, I would much rather have a charity that collects for charities as opposed to one who spends a lot of money on other things to be able to collect money, uh, and in recent years, when they've asked for a donation, my answer is, "Show me how much of the money is going to what--to where it's supposed to go. I want to know the breakdown." And, you know, to this day, I've never had anyone send me a breakdown, ever--telling me it's fairly poorly prepared, as far as these people who are calling me. So, again, those are the things that turn me off.

CRANE: Let's talk about your work as a physician. What area of medicine is 01:11:00your specialty?

BRONNER: Uh, gastroenterology.

CRANE: And how long have you been in practice?

BRONNER: I started private practice in 1985.

CRANE: And doing my homework, I learned that you were the founding medical director of the Kentucky chapter of the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America. If you could share some of the history behind this organization, and the role you have played, and why it became so important to you.

BRONNER: What year was that?

CRANE: I don't know.

BRONNER: I don't know--I don't remember either. It was a long time ago.

CRANE: It's been a while.

BRONNER: Yeah. Um, obviously I was--as--as I said, I came home from college a number of years, uh, because I got sick, and that's because I was ultimately diagnosed with Crohn's disease. My brother was diagnosed with Crohn's disease when he was nine, and at that time, nobody knew exactly what it was or how to treat it, and certainly not here, and, uh, he went to Chicago, where Dr. Joseph 01:12:00Kirsner practiced, and was diagnosed and treated, and for many years, as opposed to--pretty much here, they knew nothing, and they kind of say, "He's probably going to die," and my mom, not taking that for an answer, said, "Okay, we'll go elsewhere," and took him to Chicago, after doing her research, which probably was through World Book Encyclopedia at that time. Uh, you know, we didn't have the access to things we do today, and, uh, so basically, um, she went there, uh, my brother survived, did well--numerous surgeries, but I was involved in it--and I was always the healthy kid, and again, I got sick, and had, uh, developed the same disease when I was in college, so, um, it became very personal, and so, that was my tie-in, and--and I felt that any charity that supported research into inflammatory bowel disease was important. For a long time before that, 01:13:00before that group, uh, really existed, we donated to the Gastrointestinal Research Foundation, which is out of University of Chicago, founded by Joseph Kirsner, and then when things became broader with this organization, uh, really threw everything behind that. And, uh, when we decided to formulate a chapter, of which a number of people in this community, many of whom had a reason to become involved, because of inflammatory bowel disease personally or in their family, including my parents, uh, started up--we decided that we were going to formulate a chapter. They asked me as a GI doctor to be the medical director, and ultimately formed the first Kentucky chapter. A lot of hoops to jump through, but a lot of big people here helped get it going.

CRANE: And what's the status of this organization now?

BRONNER: The overall organization, Crohn's and Colitis Foundation?

CRANE: No, the chapter.

BRONNER: The chapter? Well, ultimately we had a very successful chapter for a 01:14:00number of years. Uh, the chapter folded, not because the chapter was unsuccessful, because the organization, which had undergone numerous reorganizations, decided to do it again. They decided they would save money by removing our local chapter director. Uh, I think he had about thirty minutes to pack up his things, and give his key, which was donated space by one of our board of directors--give his key to the person that came to town to relieve him of his duties, and they told nobody on our board, and we were all pretty much incensed by it, and I called the regional director when I heard about this, and asked--I really said I want to know one thing, and that is, was there malfeasance there, and if there was, just say yes, if not, say no. They said no, and they wanted to explain that this was their idea to make more money--they would save the salary of this person, and we were now going to be under the--so, the Indianapolis chapter director. Now, we existed before they had an 01:15:00Indianapolis chapter, and I think probably two or three weeks after we became under the Indianapolis chapter director, she was pregnant, and she was--she, uh, was taken off her feet for the remainder of her pregnancy, so there was nobody in the, uh--there were a lot of--we, uh, we had a lot of chiefs, but we didn't have enough Indians, and so pretty much the board and the people who drove the chapter, we all basically washed our hands of it at that time, and the chapter folded, which was--which was a pattern that happened a lot of places. It was a bad plan, and they finally decided that, uh, that that was a bad plan, and then over maybe ten years, they started to slowly reorganize. There is a chapter now. I don't think it's as successful or as big, but there is a chapter, which is a good thing for patients.

CRANE: I read an article online that stated that the Louisville Jewish Hospital 01:16:00was established in 1903, in part to provide facilities for Jewish doctors who were denied staff privileges elsewhere, and whose patients might prefer treatment in a Jewish environment.

BRONNER: Um-hm.

CRANE: What has been your relationship with the Jewish Hospital, and what do you know of the Jewish Hospital?

BRONNER: Well, obviously I wasn't involved in the original Jewish Hospital, which was a very small building with a small number of physicians. It ultimately got bigger, and moved to Chestnut Street in Louisville. When I came back to Louisville, I was working in two locations. I was recruited by a Jewish physician that I had grown up with his kids to go to the South End, and worked at Southwest Hospital out there, which has since folded, uh, a number of years 01:17:00back, uh, as a hospital entity, at least, uh, and also to work downtown at Jewish Hospital. So, I, uh, spent probably the majority of my career working at Jewish Hospital downtown. Uh, at one time, uh, probably spent the majority of my day down there, uh, doing inpatient care, and endoscopic care, and, uh, over time, things have kind of morphed and changed, and, uh, they're owned by a different company now. Things, in my mind, are somewhat in decline, but they decided that they wanted to, uh, I don't know, maybe five to eight years ago, they wanted to cater to the University of Louisville. They decided they were going to bring the University of Louisville staff--staff and faculty--into the hospital, and it wasn't just myself, it was, uh, GI [gastrointestinal], pulmonary, nephrology, and, they basically, if one of my patients came into the 01:18:00hospital, uh, with the now hospital system, uh, the hospitals would admit the patient, they would consult the specialties, my patient that I'd taken care of for ten or twenty years would be--uh, it was a consult put out for the university GI doctor to see them, they--it wasn't their fault, they wouldn't know what was going on--they'd go in to see the patient, who would say, "Oh, where's Dr. Bronner?" "Oh, you're his patient? Well, I'm here, let me take care of this." The next--"Well, I want to see Dr. Bronner." "Okay, I'll take care of that." The next day, they'd go down to the endoscopy unit for, for an endoscopy, and someone else would be there, and they'd say, "Well, where's Dr. Bronner?" "Oh, is he your doctor?" "Yes, where is he?" "Um, well, I don't know, but I'm here, um, let's just take care of this," and they're sick, so they said okay. I found out about this kind of practice after my patient would come back to see me in the hospital, and say, "You didn't know I was in the hospital, did you?" Obviously not. Um--so this went on, we complained to the administration, uh, were always told, um, "Oh, we're really sorry, we'll fix 01:19:00it." More and more, it didn't get fixed, and, so we didn't--we weren't told not to come back, we were kind of driven away by policy, and the same thing happened to the pulmonary doctors, uh, to the nephrologists, to where they pretty much had just University there, and that's a close alliance that they have now.

CRANE: So what caused this change?

BRONNER: Uh, that--the--I think times caused it, things changed. When I came to town, they were very big in a lot of areas. I think the--uh, the administration of the hospital--I think some of the people there, uh, were way ahead of the times and had some ideas, or way ahead of the times--they were doing hearts, which were very big then, and nobody else was doing anywhere near the number--they were doing hands, because of Dr. Kleinert, and they were an international hand center, and so it had, uh--it had international recognition 01:20:00for things that they were doing, and, um, there are a lot less hearts being done because of stent work now, and other places--well, they trained a lot of doctors who now have gone to other places who can do the same surgeries, so there are not that many hearts being done. Same thing with hands--they still have a great hand surgery, uh, service, but there are a lot of other places that do hands as well. Um, I think, uh, we began to do more and more outpatient work. Um, they had some--they had some infectious issues, which gave the hospital a shaky name for a while. Um, the location--the patient population, they had a--as many hospitals did, they had a unit that was--kind of like it was a hotel--after a surgery, I spent some time--it was very nice. Uh, the problem for the hospital was, it was very expensive to maintain, and to--to hold that unit, if the hospital was full--those were still hospital beds, so they had to be filled with 01:21:00whoever came in, even if you couldn't pay extra for the hospital bed, and they would have to staff it, uh, so ultimately that unit--that unit's closed, so again, it's kind of morphed more into a university hospital population, many of whom were on Passport, Medicaid--and the problem is that that doesn't pay enough to run a hospital. You know, you had to have more private patients to be able to run the hospital, and, uh, and so again, that got the hospital more in decline. They had a contract with the university, so the university was coming. The university didn't have the faculty to run University Hospital and Jewish Hospital, and they had people at Norton Hospital across the street, so, they'd run off a lot of their private physicians by then, uh, now they've sold out to KentuckyOne, which is primarily a Catholic-based hospital system. Uh, they've lost a ton of money, um, I don't think it's well run. Again, they've chased people off, um, they've not integrated well with the other hospital computer 01:22:00systems, um, they've made it very hard to get records, very hard to practice there, and, I don't know if they'll survive--if the hospital itself will survive in its current state. I don't know what'll happen.

CRANE: Let me see if I understand this. So, Jewish Hospital is now KentuckyOne.

BRONNER: Correct.

CRANE: And, the U of L hospital is separate, or--?

BRONNER: Separate, but again, they're in a similar--same contracts, and they staff and work there--

CRANE: --with KentuckyOne--

BRONNER: --with KentuckyOne. But U of L still has their own hospital that they need to keep filled, so it's kind of a secondary place to be.

CRANE: And so, what hospital do you practice out of, or do you utilize?

BRONNER: We use our own surgery center for the last sixteen years for outpatients, and then we practice on Audubon Hospital--Norton Audubon Hospital. That's the only place we go, and we went from--when I started, we went to seven 01:23:00hospitals a day. Now, we go to one.

CRANE: Jewish Hospital has, uh, made some changes over time, huh?

BRONNER: They have, big changes. I don't think all good.

CRANE: Um, tell me about any Jewish-related, unfriendly relationships you have had over the years as a practicing physician.

BRONNER: Unfriendly relationships in the way of--

CRANE: Well, initially, if Jewish Hospital was established in the 1900s, 1903, in order to give Jewish physicians a place to practice, um, obviously that's changed, but, um, has there been any reason or any incidences that have made you feel uncomfortable, or that have caused you any concern as a Jewish physician practicing in any of the hospitals or any incidents, because--because in fact 01:24:00you were Jewish?

BRONNER: I don't think so--as I started, there was--there was ever any concern relative to being in a certain hospital, and I practiced in Catholic hospitals, practiced in non-sectarian hospitals. I don't think I really had a problem. Maybe it was--maybe it was my specialty, which was lacking, um, and every so often I'd have a patient say something about those Jewish doctors, and I had to tell them that their doctor was one of them, which made them somewhat red in the face, and apologetic, and most of them still came back, uh, so it didn't seem to make much difference, as long as you were a good doctor. Um, the doctor--the medical staff at Jewish Hospital, when I started, was not just Jewish doctors, it was pretty much across the board. Um, but I think one of the things that's changed greatly is, there was a very strong Jewish community bias towards going 01:25:00to Jewish Hospital. If you were Jewish, you wanted to go to Jewish Hospital, and now, if you're Jewish, that's probably one of the last places you want to go, unless your doctor goes there and they want you to go there. Frequently, even, with the hospital system, you won't see your doctor, so why go there? Um, most of--a lot of my patients live out in the East End, they want to go to the East End hospitals. They'll go usually wherever I direct them. If I want them at Audubon, which is somewhat midtown, they'll go there, um, but to get someone to go to Jewish, I don't--I have more people now say that they don't want to go there, um, but again, the Jewish community did--they all wanted to be there, and so that was something that was very specific, that's drastically changed over the years. Um, but from the standpoint of my practice, I really never felt any bias. If there was any, I wasn't aware of it.

CRANE: Why do you think they don't want to go there now?

BRONNER: Um, I think it's location. Uh, they don't want to go downtown, and in 01:26:00reality, in the last few years, with the bridge building, and street changes, um, parking, um, failure to upgrade in to single bedrooms--you know, you really--we're in a society where if I go to the hospital, I like to have privacy--I don't want to share a room with somebody whose twenty family members are traipsing across me, and spending the night making noise in my room. Um, they aren't very tolerant of that, and they want to go someplace where they don't have to have that, so, they really--you know, they fail to keep up with the times, and their answer was they couldn't run the hospital if they took their numbers down. Um, but they really couldn't run the hospital if they didn't. Um, they still have--they still have very ill patients. The problem is, with payment system as it is today, you lose money on very ill patients, so, 01:27:00very--I mean, we went through the transplants, and the heart transplants, and took care of them. Um, you lost a lot of money, but the fact that you could be on the national news every night, people wanted to go to Jewish Hospital then. That doesn't happen anymore.

CRANE: I see. How has being raised Jewish, or how has--impacted your work as a physician, or has it?

BRONNER: I think it impacted my work in that I wanted to work at Jewish Hospital. Uh, I would say that would be--that would be part of the reason. Uh, otherwise, I don't know why I would have picked there as my primary--

CRANE: Your mother didn't want a Jewish doctor?

BRONNER: Well, that may be, yeah, that may be. She may have been whispering, "Go to Jewish Hospital." I know she gave me doctor kits from the time I could walk, so, um, I think I did it with my kids. It--it ultimately worked with some of them. But, yeah. But, so--and the stepdaughter, so--one got stuck on dogs, 01:28:00so she ended up being the vet, so, but, but ultimately, um, you know, I uh--I think probably, um, it was what you were supposed to be growing up, and I think I wanted to be part of that community, but at the same time, it didn't really matter what community I was part of, I just wanted to do my job and do it well.

CRANE: We talked a lot about different things, but I want to make sure that I've given you every opportunity to share the stories that you hold dear. So, what have we left out, and what would you like to share--something that you were not specifically asked about?

BRONNER: Oh, gosh, give me an area. You know, I mean, that's--

CRANE: I'm not going to do that.

BRONNER: You had to lead me into that one, because honestly, I, uh--

CRANE: Is there anything, um--any story that you would like to tell that we 01:29:00haven't covered that's important to you?

BRONNER: I'm sure there are many. I mean, I'm not helping you here at this point, but, um, you know, I'm sure there are many, but, uh, I can't come up with anything specific at this moment.

CRANE: Looking back, is there anything that you would change about your relationship to Judaism? Other than joining a different club.

BRONNER: Um, yeah--I think I'd like to be a member of multiple clubs, as opposed to one. I think that was--I think my relationship, uh, broached early--I-- I think that my parents were probably wrong, they should have been more assertive in, uh--in pushing me toward being bar mitzvah, I think that might have given me a better understanding, and more involvement in, uh, in some parts of Judaism as I was younger, but again, I went to Reform synagogue, most 01:30:00of it was in English, I didn't see a reason to learn Hebrew, um, and, you know, if you go to other synagogues, it was, uh--it was, uh, you better know a little Hebrew. But, again, the Jewish prayers, I knew all those by rote. I didn't have to be able to read Hebrew to--to now those things, and to do those things, and I spent plenty of time in temple, but I think that--I think probably one of the things that, uh, would--uh, would be to be bar mitzvah. I think, uh, that's one of the things probably I would regret today.

CRANE: You mean to have a bar mitzvah ceremony?

BRONNER: No. I could care less about the ceremony. The ceremonies were nothing--the ceremony at the synagogue, I mean--when you say ceremony, it's become too social for me. Um, it was, I'm going to study and have a ceremony and then I'm going to have a big party. Uh, the parties--you know, it was a family 01:31:00thing, it was a badge of honor to do, and it was a religious honor to do. Uh, I'm not sure it's the same today as it was then, so, that I would not like to do--uh, to study and learn more, I would like to do that. But I think we get wiser with age, too.

CRANE: That's true. Mark, it's been a pleasure, and on behalf of this project, I thank you for your time and your support.

BRONNER: Well, thank you.

CRANE: And, as always, it's been lovely.

[End of interview.]