Interview with Madeline Abramson, September 14, 2016

ELY: It's September 14th, 2016. I'm Carol Ely, and I'm here with Madeline Abramson, and we are doing an interview for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, sponsored by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. So, thank you, Madeline, for agreeing to come in and answer questions for us.

ABRAMSON: Thank you, I'm delighted to be here.

ELY: So, we're going to go somewhat chronologically, but skip back and forth between your personal life, and your community pursuits, so I'm just going to start with the absolute basics. When and where were you born?

ABRAMSON: I was born, um, on October 20th, 1955, uh, here in Louisville.

ELY: And your parents, uh, are they native Louisvillians too?

ABRAMSON: Yes, my parents, uh--my mother's name was Mary Winifred Barry, my father's name was, uh, Jack Luke Malley--they were fourth-generation Louisvillians.

ELY: So they lived in the city itself, and not in the, um, surrounding counties?

ABRAMSON: That's correct. I grew up out in the Iroquois Park neighborhood of Louisville.

ELY: And do you have brothers and sisters?

ABRAMSON: I have two older sisters. My eldest sister, um, Judy, passed away in 1987, alav hashalom. My other sister, Ellen, is married and lives in Brownsville, Kentucky, about an hour and a half from Louisville.

ELY: So, Iroquois Park area was fairly suburban then?

ABRAMSON: Well, it was a, um, middle-class neighborhood just south of downtown Louisville.

ELY: And did you go to the public schools then?

ABRAMSON: No, at that time I went to a small Catholic school in our--within our neighborhood, and also attended a small girls' Catholic high school, which, my mother had attended the same one.

ELY: And did you go to your parish church in the community?

ABRAMSON: Yes.

ELY: And what was the name of the church?

ABRAMSON: That was St. John Vianney.

ELY: And, was your family very active in the church?

ABRAMSON: We were active, uh, I think, to a certain extent, in the life of the church. One of my earliest memories of volunteering--my sister Ellen and I would walk up on Saturday mornings to put the church bulletin--to staple the church bulletin together, but I guess you couldn't really call it volunteer work, because when we were finished, we got to get a Coke out of the Coke machine, and that was a big deal to us at the time.

ELY: So, your family celebrated all the holidays--Christmas, Easter--very involved with the church, or a lot of home celebrations?

ABRAMSON: Really more of a family celebration. My mother was one of nine children, all of whom but one raised their families in Louisville, so, we had a 00:03:00big extended family, and gathered for holidays often at my grandmother's home at the corner of Seventh and Saint Catherine, a big old house in Old Louisville, and had really festive gatherings, then always had a smaller, little more subdued gathering with my, um, Dad's family, just because it was a smaller group.

ELY: And it was a pretty Catholic neighborhood back then?

ABRAMSON: Yes, uh, the majority of the people in the neighborhood were Catholic families.

ELY: So, you had a somewhat fairly religious upbringing, it was part of your--describe more--(laughs)--about the role of religion in your life then.

ABRAMSON: Well, I think, we attended mass regularly. We were involved in the church activities--uh, I think what was fairly typical, for a family at that time.

ELY: Can you remember growing up, whether you had any contact with Jewish 00:04:00people, or Jewish religion, or what you knew and thought about it?

ABRAMSON: Well, I didn't have, um, a great deal of knowledge about the religion in particular, but I did--there was a lovely family that operated the variety store a couple of blocks from my home, um, Helen--excuse me--Helen Friedman's--I have to stop, that's not the right--would you ask me that again, please? (laughs)

ELY: Can you remember back then what you knew and thought about Jews and Judaism growing up?

ABRAMSON: I didn't know a great deal about, uh, the Jewish faith at the time, but I did know a wonderful family who operated the variety store a couple of blocks from our home, Henry and Francie Friedman, and got to know them over the years. My mother never drove a car, so we walked, and did all of our shopping 00:05:00and errand-running pretty much in the neighborhood for the most part. What was interesting about the upbringing is, um, you don't learn a great deal, um, in the Catholic tradition--at that time you didn't really learn a great deal about the Old Testament, or in many cases, the New Testament. It was more of ,um, um, the catechism, an interpretation for you, as opposed to really learning and studying on your own.

ELY: So, you didn't really have any kind of education that taught you about different religions, about Judaism, that Jews were just--a different sort of person who lived in your neighborhood?

ABRAMSON: That's right. When you think--today, I think it's much different, but at that time, in the '50s and '60s, at least in our, uh, world, there was not a great deal of study of comparative religions like we have today, I think.

ELY: And, your father, what kind of work did he do? Talk about him a little 00:06:00bit. What was he like?

ABRAMSON: My father was just a very outgoing, gregarious man. He was a wonderful father, and I have so much admiration for him, because he didn't complete college, but he went to work as a computer programmer for a company called American Air Filter, and retired from there in his late '60s, and when I think now the way technology and computers change every couple of years, or less than that, he basically had to reinvent himself professionally every couple of years, and at the time, I didn't necessarily appreciate and understand that, but now, knowing how difficult change can be--you know, any time I get an upgrade to my iPhone, it's--you know, cause for panic, and yet he went from COBOL to FORTRAN, which were all computer languages that he had to learn, um, on a 00:07:00regular basis, so he was really a very bright, bright man.

ELY: And was he involved in the community, any organizations or positions, or--

ABRAMSON: He was not a big volunteer, uh, in the community. He did some things with our school, but I credit him for the reason that I like to volunteer, because when we were growing up, if my sister and I would have a complaint, which we generally would, about things--how things were handled in the world, or in school, he would listen for a bit, and then he would quote Eldridge Cleaver. He'd say, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." And, of course, as a typical kid, I would roll my eyes, but, you know, it sunk in, and he was right, because you can't just sit on the sidelines. If you see something that needs to be addressed, then you need to figure out your part in that, and, uh, he really taught me that, not so much by example, I think, but 00:08:00just by sharing his wisdom.

ELY: That's interesting that that's who he chose to quote.

ABRAMSON: It is interesting, because that would be a pretty unlikely source, I think, for him to quote--uh, be quoting Eldridge Cleaver in the '60s. But, he was a--he was a special man.

ELY: Sounds like it. And, um, your mother, what was she, she, up to while your Dad was mastering computer languages?

ABRAMSON: Well, my mother was the consummate stay-at-home Mom, and she, as I mentioned, she didn't drive a car, so we went places--walked or took the bus, and she did a great deal to help care for her mother, and I remember as a child going in on the bus with her often, or later, when I could drive, just to help, uh, my grandmother around the house. But, she was a prolific reader, and letter writer. Uh, her family had been in the newspaper business, so she had a real 00:09:00love of learning, and language, and always made sure that our home was open and welcome to all of the neighborhood kids and--and cousins, so, she made a wonderful life for us.

ELY: So, growing up in the 1960s, there was a lot of racial change in Louisville, racial tension, racial harmony in different places. Were you aware of that, growing up? Was your family involved in any way?

ABRAMSON: No, I really was not aware of that, and, looking back on it now, it seems almost inconceivable that I was not aware of it, but I guess, uh, we lived in a pretty insular neighborhood, and with uh, our life really revolving around, uh, church and school, and we were just not as aware what was going on in the community. I'm sure my parents were, and I guess they felt as though they were 00:10:00trying to shield us from some of the unrest going on--so I really was not aware of it.

ELY: And, did, uh, you feel that your parents had particular expectations for you and your sister of what your lives would be like, how you would develop as people?

ABRAMSON: I think that they wanted us to be, obviously, be good people, be accepting people, tolerant people. I know when I was in high school, we had two African-American young women in my small class of 73 students, and one became one of my dearest friends, and she stayed in my house, and I visited her home in the, the, West End, and that was something that--it was not seen as anything singular, just, Maria was my friend and I was her friend, so I think that, um, 00:11:00you know, my parents just expected us to be, um--treat people the way we would want to be treated.

ELY: And, uh, you decided to go to college, and where did you go, and--

ABRAMSON: Well, my college career, if you will, took a rather checkered path, let's say. I--I started out at Jefferson Community College at the time, and earned an associate degree in real estate, and I got my real estate license, and sold a little real estate to try to finance my continuing college career, but I decided I really didn't--I liked real estate, but I was not a good salesperson, so, uh, went back to University of Louisville, and earned an associate degree as a paralegal, and worked as a paralegal. And at the time, I was going to school at night, and working on a bachelor of Liberal Studies. And sometime in the 00:12:00late seventies, I decided to take a semester off, which turned into about a thirty-year hiatus, so I actually been--began to return to school sporadically when my son was little, and taking classes at Bellarmine University, and finally, knuckled down and got serious about finishing, and earned my bachelor of arts degree from Bellarmine at the end of 2013.

ELY: Inspiring story, for all those people--(laughs)--who are struggling to get through it.

ABRAMSON: Well, I love to tell people, young people in particular--I use myself as sort of a cautionary tale, because you don't want to be my age and be the only one in your statistics class that has to put on cheater glasses to see the buttons on her graphing calculator, so it's not a path I would recommend to people, but, um, it was important to me to earn that.

ELY: So, during this, uh, interim period in your college career, did you work as a paralegal?

ABRAMSON: Yes, I worked as a paralegal, uh, in the real estate area for a large law firm, and then, um, actually joined a contract paralegal service with, uh, two or three other women, and we did contract work, uh, for a few years, and then I returned to working full-time for an attorney, at the time for a savings and loan--so I continued working as a paralegal up until, uh, shortly after my, uh, my son arrived.

ELY: And did you continue to be affiliated with the Catholic Church you'd grown up in?

ABRAMSON: No, I did not. I really, by the time I got to college, I was really somewhat disaffected--not so much from the individuals as part of the Church--I had great respect for so many priests, and nuns, and the good work that they 00:14:00were doing in the community, but I had all my life just had some--I guess some challenges with some of the doctrine of, uh, the Church--the concept of original sin, um, other things, and so I was really not practicing anything for many, many years. And that was what was such a joy when I did discover Judaism. I thought, Well, this is what, uh, I was looking for, really, about your own relationship with God, and your study of the Torah to learn. Um, it was just a real--it was a great eye-opener for me.

ELY: And did you discover Judaism in a sense by discovering your husband?

ABRAMSON: Oh, yes that--that's--

ELY: -----------(??) Jerry Abramson -----------(??)

ABRAMSON: --yes--

ELY: --get that out there.

ABRAMSON: When I met my husband--now-husband--Jerry Abramson, and began to 00:15:00spend, obviously, more time with his, with his family, um, then it really piqued my interest in learning more, and then when we started talking about marriage, and uh, spending our lives together, I knew this was something that was important to both of us, that we can find some commonality, uh, in our faith, and so that's--I began to study, and learn, and then converted prior to our marriage.

ELY: Who did you study with? How did you go about it?

ABRAMSON: Well, I studied--took classes in, throughout the local Jewish community. Some were taught by my brother-in-law, Rabbi Stanley Miles, other ones that I attended at various, um, programs through the various temples and synagogues, and then certainly read a great many books--Rabbi Kling's book on 00:16:00Embracing Judaism--did a great deal of reading on my own, but also, certainly, the classes were a very valuable part of my learning experience.

ELY: How did your family react to your decision to become Jewish?

ABRAMSON: My family was very supportive. Uh, first of all, they loved Jerry, and they obviously--they loved me, and they knew that for many years, that I didn't really have a faith home, and they were happy, not only that, uh, that I had Jerry, but that I had a faith that uh, that I embraced.

ELY: Did you feel accepted by the Jewish community?

ABRAMSON: I not only felt accepted by the Jewish community, I've always felt embraced by the Jewish community from day one, and, and still do, that I feel--I feel that I am a part of this Jewish community.

ELY: Many people say that they feel like they always were Jewish, they just recognized it late.

ABRAMSON: (laughs) That's a good way to put it, because I knew I was looking for something for a very long time, and I just didn't know what was out there. Part of me wishes I had been more curious during those years that I was really disaffected--that I had done a better job of, of searching, but it came to me at the right time.

ELY: Do you feel a continuity between the values you grew up with and the values that you see now as Jewish values?

ABRAMSON: Very much so. I think there are so many similarities in the core of our two faith traditions, and when you look at the, um, our tikkun olam, our mission to repair the world, that's something that was really a part of 00:18:00Catholicism, uh, to a certain extent, in service, uh, and you look at groups like the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth, who've had a tradition of, again, of serving the underserved in our community and our world, um, ever since those--the congregation was started. So, there--we have a lot in common.

ELY: And, uh, did you enjoy, uh--so, embracing Judaism involves embracing a whole new set of holidays, and giving up some, uh, favorites. Was that a problem, or was that exciting?

ABRAMSON: It was not a problem, because you get to a point in life when you realize what's really important in your life. Sure, it was fun when I was growing up to put up the Christmas tree, and decorate, but it really didn't have 00:19:00anything to do with my religious fervor, it was just--it was fun to do. Um, so, uh, but embracing the new holidays that are very family-centered--Rosh Hashanah, Passover--it brings our families together to celebrate. I mean, that's a--I have new traditions now.

ELY: Did your, uh, family of origin come and celebrate the Jewish holidays with you? Did you have everybody over for Passover?

ABRAMSON: No, they did not, uh--my family didn't come celebrate the holidays with us. I guess what, uh, my sister-in-law, Sheila Miles, uh, generally gathered our family together for the Jewish holidays. You know, our holiday was Thanksgiving, and we would have both families together. Uh, we would generally do something in the spring. We would have both families together for brunch, 00:20:00and cookouts, but I guess we--we sort of picked the secular holiday of Thanksgiving for our house, knowing that both families would be comfortable there.

ELY: So, just to backtrack a little bit, so how did you meet Jerry?

ABRAMSON: Well, that's, uh--as we talked about, I was a paralegal working in a law firm at the time called Brown, Todd, and Haber, and he was an attorney with a law firm called Greenebaum Doll & McDonald, and I happened to be over at the office for a meeting of the Louisville Association of Paralegals, our professional group, and one of the paralegals introduced me to him. So, I can't say--we laugh about this--can't say it was love at first sight, because we dated off and on for seven years--(laughs)--so it took a while, but now we've been married for over twenty-seven wonderful years.

ELY: And, he encouraged you--how did he react to the religious differences 00:21:00between you? What was his take on what should happen, and what could happen?

ABRAMSON: Well, he encouraged me to, to learn more about Judaism, and, and see where I felt comfortable, and so he was very supportive of my learning process, and has been all along the way, as I've continued to participate, and take education--adult education courses, and went through the Milton program, and he's been very encouraging of that.

ELY: And it helps to have a rabbi in the family. So, your sister Sheila's married to Rabbi Stanley Miles, so, you, I believe, belong to two congregations?

ABRAMSON: That's right. We belong to Knesses Israel, the congregation where my husband and his family--where my husband grew up, and we also belong to Temple 00:22:00Shalom, where my brother-in-law, Rabbi Stanley Miles, is rabbi emeritus--he recently retired, and so I have Stanley, and then of course I have--Sheila is a wealth of knowledge herself. I mean, she kept, she keeps a kosher home, so I learned a lot about kashrut, the laws of kashrut from, from Sheila. She's also going to be the incoming president of the central district of Women of Reform Judaism. She's been, um, chair of Women of Temple Shalom, so she's so actively involved in synagogue life that, uh, she's been a great source of knowledge for me as well.

ELY: So you would consider her kind of a role model, mentor in a way?

ABRAMSON: Oh, yes. As a sister. (laughs)

ELY: And, when you got together with Jerry, you were aware he had political ambitions? Was that something you discussed?

ABRAMSON: Yes, at the time, he was--well, when we married, he was already 00:23:00Mayor, but when we were dating, yes, I knew he had political ambitions, and I was proud of him. He had served on the old Board of Aldermans, so he served as a City Councilperson. At that time, he had served as General Counsel to Governor Jon Y. Brown, so he had a taste of public service, and I knew that's what he wanted to do.

ELY: So then you stepped into the role of--very public role as the wife of the Mayor, and what did that feel like?

ABRAMSON: Well, it was one of those things that I wish--if you knew what you were really going to end up doing in life, we probably would have done things differently. I also said I would have taken a public speaking course. I would have taken elocution lessons. I would have done certain things differently, but we never really know what our life holds for us, so you just embrace it, and it was a wonderful experience to be able to participate in some many great things, 00:24:00uh, in our community over those years. I think the last year Jerry was Mayor, I gave four fifth-grade commencement speeches, so I just had the opportunity to do such special things in and around the community, and see all the good work going on.

ELY: What were some of the things--you were very involved in the community. What were some of your, um, projects and efforts that--that, the long list of community boards and uh-- (laughs)

ABRAMSON: Well, I always tried to make my volunteer service somewhat reflective of the community in general, because I remember when, uh, right before Jerry and I were married, someone came to me and said, "Well, what is your issue going to be?" I said, "Issue, my issue?" And they said, well, you know, Barbara Bush, at the time, has literacy, and somebody else has this, and Martha Wilkinson had the GED program. And I said, "I don't feel as though it's my place to put my 00:25:00issue to the comm-- out to the community, I want to hear what the community needs." So, I was able to be involved with--and I'm still involved with organizations like our local American Red Cross, like Maryhurst that serves physically and sexually abused teenage girls. I've held a number of officer positions with National Council of Jewish Women, so I've been able to, um, I think, enjoy and embrace a lot of the nonprofit activities in the Jewish community. I served on the Clothe a Child program for a number of years down in the West End, so, again, I tried to make my volunteer activities reflective of all the community's interests.

ELY: And, uh, you were a very publicly Jewish family in a community that had 00:26:00maybe eight thousand to ten thousand Jews, and hundreds of thousands of other sorts of people. How did that feel? Did you feel conspicuous? Did you feel you needed to be a sort of a special role model?

ABRAMSON: Well, I think, obviously, we were proud of our Judaism, and embraced it. It wasn't anything we ever tried to, you know, hide from people, uh, because that's who we were, that's who we are. I think that we never encountered any challenges to that from, uh, from anyone in the general community. People were very positive, very welcoming. I felt, in some ways, like we were a two-person crew trying to educate the community on the Jewish holidays, because of the, the frustrations that come--that still come with, sometimes, major public events being scheduled on a Jewish holiday.

ELY: I remember one year, Thunder Over Louisville had to be moved, because it was Passover.

ABRAMSON: That's right, and one year, uh, they didn't move it, and we didn't attend Thunder Over Louisville. And--so I think that some of it is just--you get frustrated, and think, can't you look at a calendar? But then, people don't realize that our holidays start at midnight the night before, and then, having two-day holidays just throws the general community off completely, and it's sometimes difficult to explain why some people celebrate Rosh Hashanah for two days, and other Jewish people celebrate it for one day, so we used to laughingly say, "If we as Jews can't figure out our holiday schedule sometimes, why should we expect everybody else in the community to?"

ELY: Were there any other issues where you felt you were, uh, in an educational role as far as the community goes about Judaism and Jews?

ABRAMSON: Yes, over the years, people have asked a lot of questions, and I 00:28:00remember specifically having a conversation with a person with whom I worked, and explained as best I could, you know, a condensed version of Judaism, and what I believed, and at the end of the conversation, she said, "OK, now I get it. So, you don't celebrate Christmas but you celebrate Easter." And I was--(laughs)--"No. Let's start again." But--so there, so it was more a curiosity, but I was happy--I think that people in the community felt very comfortable asking me questions about Judaism, because many times they were worried, that they didn't want to offend someone, so they--I think they felt that since I had a Christian background, a Christian upbringing, that I would understand why they had questions. And so, I embraced that, and I was always happy, um, to answer people's questions to the best of my ability, to help them 00:29:00better understand our faith tradition.

ELY: And, your son was born during this time?

ABRAMSON: Um-hm.

ELY: Tell us about him.

ABRAMSON: Yes, in 1991. And, uh, gosh, it's hard to believe--he will be twenty-five on October 18th of this year, 2016. So, that, as we all know, when a child comes into your family, that changes everything, and it's certainly been a wonderful, um, just a wonderful experience. We are so fortunate as parents to have such a great son, and he, of course, went--uh, grew up attending Sunday school at Temple Shalom, he was bar mitzvah'd at, um, Temple Shalom, but always would attend high holiday services with us. Generally, we would go to Knesses Israel the first day, Temple Shalom the second day--divide things up between 00:30:00the, the two shuls. So, uh, and, he's a member now, a full member of Temple Shalom.

ELY: It seems to be a Louisville tradition for people to belong to more than one house of worship, which is not something you see other places. So, while, uh, your son was growing up, you were involved with community work primarily, and, uh, raising your family, and uh, there was a period when Jerry was not Mayor, he--term limits took him out of office for a while, I believe he taught and practiced law?

ABRAMSON: That's correct.

ELY: And, was that a huge change in your life at that time?

ABRAMSON: It was a big change. It was a big change for me, it was a big change for our son, because we had really--we were so used to the rather hectic schedule he kept as Mayor, and even though he would be incredibly busy, he would do things like he would come home to have dinner with us, or be with us at 00:31:00dinner time, and then go back out to go to some things if I hadn't been going with him. And so, then, when he had what I would call a more traditional schedule, and started showing up at the door at--(laughs)--4:30, it was a little startling, because my son and I had our routines, and I think for Jerry, it was tough at first, because the office of Mayor had been so consuming in everything we did as a family, most of the time, and he hadn't--he was not one who was playing golf on the weekends. He didn't have a great many hobbies, so it took him a little bit, I think, to find his new routine, and then just about the time I think he was finding a new routine, and then he decided, when we had merged government, and ran for metro Mayor.

ELY: So then you were back in pretty much the same position as before. Well, the merged city county was a little bit different. It was a bigger 00:32:00constituency, more people--were there any differences in your role, as far as, uh, what you were expected to do?

ABRAMSON: Well, yes, because I was really expected to participate in more activities in the entire community, which was, which was fun, whereas before, I was more confined to the city limits, the old city limits, so I really tried to make sure that I was involved all over the county. And so, when I would be invited by a school out in a suburban area, I would make a special effort to go, because I wanted people to know that we personally had embraced the entire metro community, and wanted to be there for all of them.

ELY: And, I know we're following Jerry's career a little bit, but obviously, that had a strong impact on you. So, when he accepted the Lieutenant Governor 00:33:00position, ran for it, and took that, did you continue to live in the same house in Louisville, and he commuted? Is that the way that worked?

ABRAMSON: Yes, that's how it works, and I'd like to back up just a little bit, because, uh, Steve Beshear, Governor Beshear, actually came to Jerry back in 2006, I think, and suggested that Jerry run for Governor, but at the time, our son was just getting ready to--you know, starting to think about going into high school, and wanted to play football, and wanted to sing in the chorus, and, you know, Jerry knew that running for Governor is a 24/7 job for at least a year, year and a half, going around the state, and, you know, he made--he prioritized our family, and I'm certainly grateful for that. And so Governor Beshear then went back to Jerry and said that he decided he was going to run, so he ran and 00:34:00served his first term, and then came to Jerry and asked Jerry to run for him, as Lieutenant Governor, so we stayed in our home in Louisville, and commuted back and forth each day, which was, again, made it harder on Jerry, but he didn't really want to uproot us, uh, to move to Frankfort, at the time. So, again, he made that decision for our family. But, it was a wonderful opportunity for us to get to know people around the state, and travel, but it would have been easier if we'd gone to Frankfort. But, as I say, he didn't want to move our son out of high school at the time.

ELY: So, were there duties and expectations on you, in that role of the wife of Lieutenant Governor?

ABRAMSON: Well, that's interesting, because there really is no description at all for the role of the spouse of the Lieutenant Governor, but fortunately, we had a very close working relationship with the Beshears, so, I was asked to do, 00:35:00um, a number of things, which I enjoyed. I used to always laugh that somebody would call in to the Governor's office--I can remember an example, I think there was an event, something in eastern Kentucky, and asked for the Governor, and the Governor couldn't attend, the First Lady couldn't attend, Jerry was busy on something else, so it's like, well, we want to send somebody, so, uh--to represent the Governor, so they would ask me, and nine times out of ten, I always said yes, because I loved getting out in the state, and meeting new people, and seeing all the good things that were going on. So, I really took advantage of the opportunity that they wanted me to help represent the state. And then, the Governor asked me to be chair of both the Kentucky Commission on Women, as well as the Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts, so those were two additional volunteer roles that I took on at the request of the Governor.

ELY: I noticed a couple times you mentioned volunteer work on behalf of women. Is that something that is dear to your heart?

ABRAMSON: It is, and I think growing up in a house, uh, with two sisters, and I've always been, uh, sensitive to--and certainly in my professional life, I've been, uh, sensitive to the issue of opportunities for women and girls, and increasing those opportunities, and certainly, having been involved with an organization like National Council of Jewish Women for over twenty-five years, you couldn't find stronger advocates for the needs of women and girls. Uh, I've chaired the Women for Women luncheon, and again, uh, working with Maryhurst and with the Commission on Women. You know, I wanted to do what I can for greater opportunities for women and girls, because we all know about pay equity. We 00:37:00celebrate Pay Equity Day, which is not really a celebration, it's to call attention to, uh, the disparity in pay, and I think that--I still see that women and girls not necessarily--particularly young women--not realizing that, in this world, that all careers are open to them, and that they don't nec--although traditional roles for women, careers are wonderful, I want young women to know that wherever they dream, they can be, they can get there. So, I've enjoyed being a part of that effort.

ELY: And you've also been an advocate for the arts, as well. In what organizations, what ways?

ABRAMSON: Well, I am--I have--how should I say this? I have absolutely no artistic ability of any kind, but I have always enjoyed the arts, and I know my father's older sister, when I was little, took us regularly to the Speed Museum, 00:38:00and so I've--I loved the arts from afar, but even when I was in my twenties, I served on a young professionals board for the ballet, and for the opera, and then, when my son was little, I joined the Stage One Children's Theater board, because I wanted to support--it was just a great fit, and able to take advantage of those opportunities for him. So, I'm--I'm just a big believer in what the arts can do for the soul, and the spirit, and even as an economic development engine for the, for the community. So, as I said, I've just--and I have an appreciation for the arts, but I don't have any lingering artistic ability that I'm yearning to do. (laughs)

ELY: Did you feel that statewide you could have an impact on people that, uh, 00:39:00in the arts, or in, uh, roles for women and girls, that, uh, you were able to provide something that was needed out there?

ABRAMSON: Yes, certainly--with the Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts, we have a couple of ways--since we are the state arts organization, we can reach out in the state. We run the Governor's School for the Arts program, which each year, uh, brings talented juniors from across the state.

ELY: And you on the board of the Kentucky Center?

ABRAMSON: Yes, I'm currently chair of the board of the Kentucky Center, so we operate Governor's School for the Arts, and we also, uh, operate teacher training programs around the, around the state, so we try to get out into the state, and spread the, um, arts opportunities, because many smaller, more rural communities don't necessarily have those opportunities, and they, they have--they don't have in their schools a great deal of budget for arts, or for 00:40:00the band, so many times we feel like it's part of our job--and I think all of our arts organizations--Stage One, the ballet--they try to do that outreach into the state, because we're just so spoiled in Louisville that we can--we could go to an arts activity of some kind every day of the week, and it's not like that in other parts of the state.

ELY: And, in recent years, your husband's been commuting to Washington DC regularly on President Obama's staff for uh municipal governance affairs, I believe?

ABRAMSON: Well, Jerry's title is Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Intergovernmental Affairs, so what that long title means is, he is the liaison from the White House to governors, mayors, county officials, also to Indian tribes. He's the liaison to native Americans, and he--not only does he 00:41:00help with the President's--get the President's message out to, um, to mayors and governors and county officials, he in turn brings their concerns and suggestions into the White House, and given his experiences, as a Mayor, really, as a county official, when he was--because after merger, he was technically the Mayor and the county judge, and then as a Lieutenant Governor, he really brings a unique perspective to that position, because of his professional history.

ELY: Was--is anything expected of you as part of his work in Washington?

ABRAMSON: No, other than fun things. I get to go up for the White House Chanukah party, and the White House holiday dinner, but there--did not have any kind of an official, or really supporting role from his, from his work standpoint.

ELY: So, has he encouraged the administration to note those Jewish holidays, like Chanukah, and Passover?

ABRAMSON: Well, he said that President Obama, certainly this administration, has been, uh--is very well connected to the Jewish community, and I think the President has hosted seders every year in the White House, so before Jerry ever got there, I think there was a strong emphasis on the President's part about having a positive, strong relationship with the Jewish community.

ELY: So, you've stayed here, stayed grounded in Louisville. Has it given you an opportunity, now that your son is on his own and your husband's in Washington, to really spend time on causes that are close to you?

ABRAMSON: Well, it's been an opportunity and it's been a challenge. When Jerry first went to DC, we weren't sure at the time if I would join him full-time or not, but what we quickly learned is that he was working such an intense schedule 00:43:00that he would leave our apartment at seven in the morning, and get home anywhere from 7:30 to 10 o'clock at night, and traveling quite a bit, that it just--it didn't make a lot of sense for me to be up there full-time, so it's been--I think it's much harder on him from a loneliness factor than it has been for me here surrounded by friends, and family, but it's--it has given me flexibility to spend more time on some of the activities I've enjoyed. It's also given me the opportunity to spend some more time with friends, to do things with them, so I'm--as I say, it's been much easier for me than it has been for him.

ELY: Um-hm. Let me see here. Who--can you think, looking back on all this, of people that you really consider to be your mentors, people who have influenced you, people that you've leaned on for advice and counsel?

ABRAMSON: Well, I think that many of the, uh, people I've worked with in the nonprofit arena have been tremendous mentors to me, whether it's Judy Lambeth, the president of Maryhurst, or whether it's the people I've served on the board with at the Jewish Hospital & St. Mary's Foundation. Over the years, I've learned so much about, um, healthcare, and the challenges that we face in this community, in this nation, with equity and healthcare, and, so I feel as though drawing from my service with Jewish Hospital and St. Mary's is where I've really learned that--I guess I've learned what I don't know, I've learned the questions to ask, so I think that organization has had a tremendous influence on me.

ELY: Um-hm. And, have you traveled to Israel? Have you had that opportunity?

ABRAMSON: No, I have not had the opportunity, uh, as of yet, and I certainly hope to do that someday. I think my husband's been there three times, I believe. Um, so someday.

ELY: Someday. And, uh, things have obviously--things change all the time. You came into the Jewish community, I guess, in the uh, seventies, eighties. Uh, how have you seen things change in the relationship between the Jewish community in Louisville and the wider community, since you have a role in influencing both?

ABRAMSON: Well, I came into the Jewish community in the eighties, and I guess, really--I have not seen a great deal of change in, I guess, in my experience, other than--I see the community hasn't evolved, that some institutions that were such bedrocks, I guess when my husband was growing up--some things like BBYO 00:46:00have sort of struggled to, uh, keep the momentum going in some areas, because, I think, of the competition that--the way my husband explains it to me growing up, that the Jewish kids were more involved at the center, and--because maybe they didn't feel as welcome to participate in activities in the general community. From what I've seen, Jewish people, Jewish kids are welcome in every aspect of this community, which is a good thing, but it's also been a challenge, I think, to keep some of the Jewish institutions, um, going as strongly as we would like, just for that very reason.

ELY: And, do you currently sit on the boards of any Jewish organizations--National Council, or--

ABRAMSON: Yes, I serve on the National Council of Jewish Women Louisville section, and that's really--and I'm also on the advisory council for Jewish 00:47:00Family and Career Services. But, one thing I've noticed, and I guess sort of--maybe the benefit of not having that history of growing up in the Jewish community, I hear sometimes people lament, oh, there's not as much going on, or maybe there's--things aren't as well attended, but when I look at the email I've received from the JCL, you could do something, some Jewish-related activity every night of the week, whether it's something going on at the center, or pizza for the pantry for JFCS, or just, Sunday night, there was a great rebbe soul music festival at Temple Shalom, so I see a very vibrant, uh, community that has something for everyone.

ELY: In some ways, the synagogues and temples have gone back to what they were before as places that produce arts and learning, away from a more centralized 00:48:00community. Uh, do you take an active role in, in your synagogue, temple?

ABRAMSON: I should probably take a more active role, but--

ELY: --I wasn't blaming you--

ABRAMSON: --no, but I'm a--I'm a member of the Women of Temple Shalom, and try to participate in those activities generally--if there's a call for volunteers to bake, or something, uh, then I'll do that, but I've not served in a position as an officer in either Temple Shalom or Knesses--and I admire the people who do, because that's a tough job.

ELY: Um-hm. So, uh, soon Jerry plans to move back to Louisville. How do you see the future opening up for you?

ABRAMSON: Well, I, I can't wait. He--this November, it will have been two years, so hope to have him home sometime in January, and, and figure out what 00:49:00the next steps will be. I know he loved teaching. It wouldn't surprise me if he would want to return to teaching in some capacity, but that's really the conversation we're having now, is what the next step will be.

ELY: And what about for you? What dreams do you still have to fulfill?

ABRAMSON: Well, I think that I would like--one of the things I learned from returning to college later in life is that it's--how important it is to keep learning and keep challenging yourself, and I don't think I've done that enough. I love to read. I love, as I say, to participate with volunteer organizations, but just the whole process of studying, whether it's to take more Milton classes, or join the Veritas group at Bellarmine, or at least make a commitment to attend more lectures that are offered in the Jewish community--the new Lillian Seligman alav hashalom's family-endowed lecture series, or the 00:50:00Goldstein/Leibson lecture series, to take advantage of more of that, so that I can continue to learn and not get stagnant.

ELY: Maybe travel? Maybe Israel?

ABRAMSON: Yes, maybe so.

ELY: And, is there anything I haven't asked you that you really think should be part of the archival record about your experience personally in Louisville?

ABRAMSON: I think--one thing I would like to add, I just alluded to it briefly, but my work over the years with Jewish Hospital & St. Mary's Foundation, because I first joined the Jewish Hospital Foundation--was asked to join in the early '90s, and of course, Jewish Hospital merged with Caritas, the Caritas organization, and became the Jewish Hospital & St. Mary's Foundation, and having served on that over the years--again, to see the two faith traditions, and the 00:51:00Sisters of Charity of Nazareth who founded St. Mary and Elizabeth's Hospital, and Our Lady of Peace, and then certainly the Jewish community and its--with starting Jewish Hospital, but to see the way these two faith traditions combined and have worked so beautifully together over the years, I think, says something about our two communities, and about our city, because many times, I've heard people say, Well, that's not going to work--you know, a Catholic hospital organization, a Jewish hospital organization--

ELY: --there were a few issues--

ABRAMSON: --yes, and--but, it's really, for the most part, has, I think, worked beautifully, in that despite some doctrinal differences, if that's the word, that had to be worked out, that the goal was always delivering healthcare, particularly to the underserved community, and I just think being a part of that 00:52:00has been really a very special part of my life.

ELY: Well, I thank you for doing this interview. It was, uh, really wonderful to talk with you today.

ABRAMSON: Thank you, Carol.

F1: Can I pop in one additional question?

ELY: Yes. Oh, please do.

F1: I'm curious about your son, and what he's up to now, what his college journey has been like, his connection or relationship to Louisville now, and his relationship to Judaism.

ABRAMSON: Well, my son--our son--attended public school and graduated from Male High School, which was a wonderful experience. He played football, he sang in the chorus, he ran track, he took advantage of all the opportunities, fun opportunities schools can provide, and then we took him to visit a number of colleges, and then he decided that he wanted to stay in town and attend 00:53:00Bellarmine University, so we said, "That's fine, but if you want to stay in town, you have to live in the dorm, and get out on your own somewhat." And that was a wonderful experience for him. He graduated as a Communications major, and currently works doing digital and social media for the Convention and Visitors Bureau, and he's training for the ironman, which, I'm not sure where that came from, but he's, he's training for the ironman, and has done very well in some of the sprint and Olympic triathlons in which he's competed. But, he's also on the program committee at the JCC, and--so, I think I'm encouraged by the fact that he wants to get involved in the community, and figure out ways to give back. He's still--he attends the regular services with us at temple occasionally, but is always there for the high holidays, and so I feel as though, um, he's just 00:54:00got a great--he's a great young man, and he's got a great life right now. He's engaged, just bought his first house, so, life is certainly good for him.

ELY: Great. Well thank you.

ABRAMSON: Thank you.

END OF AUDIO FILE