00:00:00CRANE: For official purposes, today is March 18th, 2016, and my name is
Janice Crane. And I'm part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky
oral history project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I'm
honored to be here today with Mark Wides. Mark and I were raised in Lexington
about the same time. He's just a little older. And I suspect that we both have
similar and yet so very different experiences. So I'm really looking forward to
recording Mark's story, for myself and for others to hear. So let's begin.
WIDES: Let's go.
CRANE: For the record, what is your full name?
WIDES: Mark, middle initial E, or Edward, if you'd like, Wides.
CRANE: And when and where were you born?
WIDES: Uh, 2/10/48, uh, the old St. Joe Hospital, here in Lexington.
CRANE: Uh, are your parents alive? And what were your parents' names and where
were they from?
WIDES: Neither are alive. Uh, Dad was Norman Aaron Wides, was actually born in
Richmond, Kentucky, uh, 8/22/18. My mother was Betty Claire Mickler, born in
00:01:00Asheville, North Carolina, grew up in Lexington--or grew up, excuse me--in
Louisville. Dad grew up in Lexington. She was born on 8/22/26.
CRANE: Uh
WIDES: --so, yes, they did have the same birthday.
CRANE: That's interesting.
WIDES: Yeah.
CRANE: Uh, did your parents and/or maternal or paternal grandparents' names
change when they or their parents came to America, since your parents were born
here? Were their family names changed? Were your names always Wides or?
WIDES: --always Wides.
CRANE: And always Mickler?
WIDES: Um-hm.
CRANE: Okay.
WIDES: Or Ades.
CRANE: Ades!
WIDES: My grandmother was Ades.
CRANE: Oh! A relation to Mike Ades's family?
WIDES: Yeah. Cousin. Uh, my grandmother's fathe--uh, there's a relationship
there between my grandmother's parents and, uh, David Ades. I think, uh, Lily
00:02:00and David were first cousins.
CRANE: Okay!
WIDES: Mike was--uh, is David's son.
CRANE: Uh
WIDES: And then there it goes from there.
CRANE: What brought your family to Kentucky?
WIDES: That's a good question. Honestly, I do not know.
CRANE: Do you or did you--(Wides clears his throat)--have other relatives in
Lexington, at the time they came here? Or when did they come here?
WIDES: Uh, gee, I'm not sure when they came to--uh, uh, not knowing when they
came here--uh, are there other relatives?
CRANE: The Ade
WIDES: We're somewhat, uh, obviously, related to the Ades--uh, a, uh--also the
Mickler family, Bob Mickler and--late Bob Mickler and his daughters. Uh, that
00:03:00was a cousin. Uh, trying to think. Uh, directly also to the Cohen family,
Robert S. Cohen--
CRANE: --uh
WIDES: --Harry Cohen.
CRANE: Well, you did have some relatives. So
WIDES: (clears throat). Yeah.
CRANE: Uh, if you have siblings, what are their names and ages relative to you?
WIDES: I'm the oldest of four. Uh, I had a sister named Laura, who was, uh--no
longer with us, died in '75, uh, hit by a drunk driver on a Sunday afternoon--
CRANE: --uh
WIDES: --six weeks, to the day, after my mother passed away. Uh, have a sister
Betsy, born in '51, uh, currently still lives in Lexington, uh, not married, uh,
works as a come-to-you barber. Uh, and she's also a, uh, volleyball referee.
00:04:00
CRANE: Uh!
WIDES: And she travels the country, uh, periodically, uh, refereeing volleyball
tournaments, everything from clubs to high schools to colleges. And she's done
some SEC [Southeastern Conference] work, NAIA [National Association of
Intercollegiate Athletics]. She's done some pre-Olympic stuff. She's kind of
amazing, in that she's four-foot-eleven, maybe.
CRANE: Wow!
WIDES: So. But, uh, she has a good time doing that. And then, finally, I've
got a younger brother, Steven. Uh, and he's an attorney here in Lexington.
CRANE: Okay!--(Wides clears his throat)--Are you married?
WIDES: Married since 1970.
CRANE: Okay. And what is your wife's name? And where is she from?
WIDES: She's from here in Lexington. She's a member of the Fister clan, uh,
00:05:00grew up--both of us, obviously--here in Lexington. Yvonne is a year younger
than I am and formerly worked at UK [University of Kentucky], as a, uh, primary
coder for the Department of Medicine, at UK Hospital, just recently retired.
CRANE: And I know that you have children.
WIDES: (clears throat); We have
CRANE: --uh, but what are their names and ages and the names and ages of your grandchildren?
WIDES: Oh, I can do the
CRANE: --'cause I know you have grandchildren--
WIDES: --I can do that. We have, uh, three children. The oldest is Alison,
Alison Michelle. And she and her husband, John Kinningham, live in
Barbourville, actually what we call a suburb of Barbourville, called Walker,
Kentucky. It's in Knox County. They live on family property that has been
passed down, uh, in John's family since the Revolutionary War days. He has the
00:06:00original land grant that he recei--that his great-great-grandfather, whatever,
removed received for his service as a colonel in the Revolutionary War,
hand-signed by George Washington.
CRANE: Wow!
WIDES: They live on--it's approximately 700 acres. It's never been subdivided
or anything. So it's still in the family. It's really rural, uh, land, uh,
mostly timber, some--probably some oil shale there. Uh, John is in the timber
business. He's also what's called a landman. So he does that, uh, oil and gas,
uh, lease title searches for, uh, oil, uh, and gas, uh, exploration companies.
They have three children, Lily Claire, obviously named after my grandmother and
my mother--And she is six. She's in first grade. Uh, Joseph William--or,
00:07:00excuse me--William Joseph. He is, uh, five, goes to, uh, kindergarten
full-time. It's our only grandson. And then, finally, we have little Bella,
Bella Jane. And she's almost three. And, uh, she thinks she's the oldest and
should be in charge. Uh, second child is Brandon, Brandon Michael Wides. He
and his wife, Brittany--uh, both nurses. They live in Nicholasville. Uh, both
are nurses. He's a nurse--RN at, uh--here at UK. Brittany is a nurse at
Baptist. They have three girls between them, his from a first marriage, that
00:08:00didn't work out, uh, Alison Michelle. She's eleven, goes to East Jessamine
Middle School. Uh, Avery Madison is Brittany's, from a prior relationship. And
she goes to Red Oak Elementary. And then Bristol Kate is our youngest
grandchild. And she's about six weeks younger than Bella. Uh
CRANE: --uh
WIDES: That's what we got. Then we have a third child, uh, Justin Alan. And
he currently works for UK Athletics, and recently finally got his degree and is
actively searching for a full-time position, with all the perks and benefits
that go with that. He does have benefits here at UK but, uh, uh, not as much as
he would like. So.
CRANE: Uh
WIDES: That's what we got.
CRANE: What were your parents' occupations? Uh, I know you had a family
00:09:00business an --but if you could describe your family's business or
WIDES: My mother's wou--would be called today a domestic engineer. I.e., she
ran the family household. (clears throat). The family business that my dad and
uncle started--uh, he--by education, he was a, uh, 1939 graduate, University of
Kentucky, mechanical engineer. Uh, and they started a business in '46. And
we'll get into that, I think, I guess, a little bit later. But it started
primarily as a scrap business and slowly evolved, over the years, into--into a
structural steel, miscellaneous metals, and miscellaneous building, uh, supply company.
CRANE: Go ahead and tell us about the, uh, scrap metal business or whatever it
was, now, if you would, please.
WIDES: As best--uh, let me tell ya, uh, from--from my perspective. Uh,
00:10:00they--my dad got back from the war. He had been a prisoner of war of the
Japanese, uh, captured, actually, before, uh, the fall of Corregidor. Uh, and I
do have some recordings of where he actually did some interviews regarding that.
Uh, very interesting. But, uh--so he had some back pay built up, got a loan
from my grandmother, uh--my maternal grandmother, Lily. And he and my uncle, Ed
Wides, Edward Joseph Wides, uh, started, uh, a company called Wides Scrap
Metals. And as they developed they bought scrap and then resold it, obviously,
for a profit, which is what you wanted to do. And that's what a lot of--(clears
throat)--Jewish businesses got started, uh, that were in the metals business.
00:11:00Some are still in that business. Some sold those businesses to larger
companies. But that's basically how they got started. Prior to the start of
Wides Scrap, uh, my grandfather, Morris Wides, was a partner of Morris Baker.
So many people referred to it as Baker and Wides. Uh, I think that was the way
it was--was listed. Uh, and that was prior to World War II. Uh, my
grandfather, uh, uh, somehow lost his half of the business. It was my
grandmother Leah who was the brains behind that, uh, business, as far as the
00:12:00relationship between my grandfather and my grandmother--who we called little
grandmother, because she was so s--tiny, as opposed to Lily, who was just
Grandmother. Notice the, uh, formality of Grandmother, Grandmother, no- not
Pops, not anything else. Uh, and sometime during World War II, uh, Morris
Baker bought out, uh, pushed out--I'm not sure how that worked--Morris Wides.
Morris Wides went on to divorce my grandmother and marry somebody else. They
lived here in Lexington. [keys rattle]. Never met the man. He died before I
was born. Uh, but my name, as in most Jewish namings, Mark, was in honor of
00:13:00Morris Wides. The Edward portion was in honor of my grandf--maternal
grandfather, uh, Edward Mickler. Uh, Ed Mickler--Edward Mickler and, uh,
Skuller--Lena Skuller were brother and sister--
CRANE: --oh--
WIDES: --Skuller's, uh, jewelry store.
CRANE: Where the big clock stands, on
WIDES: --still stands. And hopefully, it will con
CRANE: --Lime--almost Lime and Main--
WIDES: --yeah--and hopefully will continue to stand.
CRANE: Okay.
WIDES: Uh--
CRANE: --and that's connection to the Cohens.
WIDES: That's the connection to the Cohens.
CRANE: Okay. Uh, how did your family connect with the other so that's the
connection your family had with the--the scrap metal
WIDES: That was the connection getting into and
CRANE: --into the scrap metal. Okay.
WIDES: --starting this business. I'm not sure what Ed was doing while, uh, Dad
was off at, uh, World War II. But when he got back, he took what, uh, little
00:14:00money he had, uh, from that plus this loan and they started this business. Uh,
and that was in 1946. The bu--the business continued, uh, until shortly after I
left in 1990. About two or three years later, it--it passed away--went
away--uh, which is another story. We might get into that a little bit. Uh, but
it slowly evolved, over the years. As you buy scrap, you get new--newer
than--than really old scrap. So they got some used beams. And you'd get a call
from someone who would say, "Can you give us a beam that will support this, uh,
roof" or--or "this wall?" or whatnot. And Dad, being an engineer, would say,
"Yes, I can do that. I've got something here that will work." Eventually, he
00:15:00would get more and more calls for this stuff. So he would have to start buying
new material. Uh, this material would come from either a mill or what was
know--what were known, and still are, as steel service centers. And these are
smaller entities. They're--they're a cross between someone like our company,
Wides--what later became Wides Material Company, and the mills. Because mills
have minimum orders that you have to place with them, in order to get material
from the mill. So you have to be pretty big, at that point. And we w--as a
company, were not that big. So we would buy from steel service centers, uh,
L--in Louisville--there were none in Lexington--in Louisville or Cincinnati.
And as we got into this, we found more steel service centers throughout the
00:16:00country that would bring stuff to us. And that's the way we'd compete and get
competitive numbers. Uh, then, as we got in doing the miscellaneous steel work
that we were doing, scrap, instead of being the predominant entity of Wides
Material, became maybe fifty-fifty. And we would start to get calls for--"Well,
you can get this. Can you get this product?" or "Can you get that product?" I
joined the company, uh, in 1968, couple years, uh, ou--after high school, still
going to UK, uh, school of architecture, uh, and started working there
part-time, started as a steel detailer and then gradually got involved in more
and more, eventually into quoting projects, designing projects, uh, selling, and
00:17:00so forth. And we ended up creating what now would be called a contract
engineering department or a fabrication department. Uh, but we would also do
things like doors and frames and hardware and toilet partitions, reinforcing
steel, uh, concrete accessories, uh, masonry accessories, even some wood
accessories, anything that--uh, it was all basically metal related. Uh, we
might be what you would consider maybe a Lowe's or Home Depot, before there was
a Ho--(Crane laughs)--Lowe's or Home Depot. Because we had a lot of other stuff.
CRANE: Different types of material.
WIDES: Correct. And we would get large companies come to us for these other
items. I was predominantly in charge of most of that. Uh, Ed was
00:18:00pro--predominantly in charge of the scrap. And Dad oversaw everything.
CRANE: When your--(Wides clears throat)--the company first got started, where
was it located, when it was--
WIDES: --started o--started, uh, uh--
CRANE: --in the scrap metal business?
WIDES: --started o--at 700 East Seventh Street--
CRANE: --okay--
WIDES: --stayed there the entire time.
CRANE: Okay.
WIDES: Uh, the buildings that were there when I left in 1990, even the
original, uh, portion of the office area, is still there. It's been covered up,
expanded, grown, but whatnot--currently was o--It was bought in 1994 or
something like that from Ed Wides and my father's second wife--uh, who sold it.
And I have no clue what happened with that money. But, uh, it was sold at an
00:19:00absolute auction, uh, because of all the damage that had been done to the
property over the years, from, uh, uh, all the scrap and the stuff that was in
the scrap, that had filtered down into the--the property itself. So we sold it
at absolute auction, with whoever bought it understanding that they would be
responsible for whatever PCBs [polychlorinated biphenyl] or, uh, solutions might
be there that would need to be, uh, cleaned an and removed.
CRANE: You mentioned that, during those early years, there were several Jewish
families that were in the scrap metal business.
WIDES: Correct.
CRANE: Uh, and you've mentioned the Bakers.
WIDES: Right.
CRANE: Were there others? And how did your family connect with, uh?
WIDES: There was one other, uh, was a company called Harry Gordon. Uh, I think
it was actually called Harry Gordon Scrap Metals. And later it became Harry
00:20:00Gordon Steel. They kept the scrap end of it. Eventually, that business was
sold off to a larger co company--(clears throat)--uh, the Gordons, I never knew
Mr. Gordon, Senior, Harry Gordon. I knew some o--I knew one of the Gordons,
uh, and Mort Norris, who was the son-in-law of, uh, Harry Gordon. And Mort ran
the steel end of it. Uh, the Gordons ran the scrap end of it--and buil--uh,
Mort built up a really good, uh, clientele. And that's the business that, uh,
exists today. (clears throat). It was originally started on Patterson Street.
The city and state recently bought the property, maybe two y--three years ago,
00:21:00because of the Newtown, uh, Road extension, going right through it. So Harry
Gordon Steel has since moved to--and relocated to Winchester, Kentucky.
CRANE: Oh!
WIDES: Uh, it is currently run, uh--owned and run by Ben Norris. And I'm sure
his brother Phillip has a small part of that, as well, who also works there.
But I would highly recommend that you, uh, contact Ben.
CRANE: Okay.
WIDES: Uh, I'll give you some contact information for that. Uh, Ben and I talk
probably once or twice a week, uh, always have--so--especially since I'm in the
business that I am now, not as much when I was competing against them. But, uh,
uh--but, as to how those families got along, very cordial. (laughs). I mean,
uh, uh, it's competition but it's--you know, you're
CRANE: --healthy competition.
00:22:00
WIDES: Uh, for the most part, yeah, I would think so.
CRANE: And doing some research on your family, I learned that your father had a
role with the UK yearbook, uh, in 1939. What, if anything, can you tell me
about his experience with the yearbook or his experience at UK?
WIDES: He was a member of ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau]. Beyond that, I have no clue!
CRANE: Okay. Did you know he was involved in
WIDES: --no
CRANE: --the UK yearbook?
WIDES: No.
CRANE: You might want to Google him. (laughs). Uh, there are some interviews.
And there--there is some information online about him.
WIDES: I have, uh, heard some of the interviews but only that stuff which, uh,
related to his experiences
CRANE: --in the war
WIDES: --World War II experience.
CRANE: Right.
WIDES: So pr--I have nothing on the other.
CRANE: Okay. What was your Judaism in your family like, growing up? How did
Jewishness figure into your childhood? And what traditions did you follow?
WIDES: Well, we were--I am a member of, uh, Temple Adath Israel. Uh, just
00:23:00typical. I mean, uh, I did everything that every other kid did, uh, played
baseball, you know, did all the other stuff. But, uh, when it came time to get
bar mitzvah--You know, I went to Sunday school every Sunday, uh, got
confirm--bar mitzvahed there--uh, High Holy Days. Didn't go to services
regularly on Friday night, but fairly regular. Especially as Dad got--you know,
we got older and so forth, I would go with him. Uh, still go--not as much. I'm
not real enamored with the new rabbi. But maybe he'll just have to grow on me.
Or maybe--whatever. He's--he's just different. So, uh--I had, years ago,
00:24:00served on the board. Don't do that anymore. Taught Sunday school for about ten
years. Don't do that anymore. Uh, mine is the predominant, uh, uh, acti--uh,
involvement at the temple. Betsy also goes. My brother does not. Kids were
not raised Jewish. Uh, my wife's Catholic. Uh, they did go to Sunday school,
uh, to a point. Uh, Brandon still has good friends th--and cousins around the
country, that he contacts. He was very active in the Youth Group. I was very
active in Youth Group, actually president of the temple Youth Group, when I was
a senior in high school. So between my traveling with swim teams and my duties
as president of the temple Youth Group, uh, I was pretty busy, uh, at the
00:25:00temple, as best I could.
CRANE: Uh
WIDES: --uh
CRANE: I grew up with most of my Jewish connections at the synagogue
WIDES: --corre
CRANE: --and I su--and su suspect that you grew up with most of your Jewish
connections at the temple. So what was it like for you, growing, uh--growing up
Jewish in Lexington, attending the temple? Uh, did you ? You said you went to
Sunday school. You said you had bar mitzvah. Did you socialize? And you said
you were the, uh, Youth Group president. Di ? Were those your core friends?
Did you socialize?
WIDES: Basically. I ha--you know, I had a--a multitude of friends and so
forth. The best man at my wedding was David Rose--
CRANE: --okay--
WIDES: --who we grew up with. Uh, we spent a lot of time together. But I
spent a lot of time with, uh, my--wh--gentile friends, if you would. Uh, as far
as, uh, you guys over at the--at the shul or, uh, synagogue, uh, yeah, the
00:26:00Rosenbergs--spent a lot of time with them--uh, even dated Joyce, off and on for
a little while. Uh, a lot of synagogue members had dual memberships. Not the
other way around. Not real sure why. But there were a lot of dual memberships.
Attended a lot of bar mitzvahs and/or parties at, uh--at the synagogue. So,
uh, you know, I had friends over there too. So.
CRANE: Okay. Where did you attend elementary, junior high, and, for the
record, high school? I actually know where you went to high school. But please
share that.
WIDES: Uh, elementary school, I started at the old Kenwick Elementary School--
CRANE: --uh--
WIDES: --on Henry Clay Boulevard--uh, later became Julia R. Ewan. She was
principal when I was there. Went there for three years, in the fourth grade
00:27:00switched to Cassidy Elementary, then went to junior high, which, now they call
that middle school, went to Morton Middle School, then on to Henry Clay. Now,
what's interesting about that was, at some point in time during that--that time,
I think it was between--it might have been between my sophomore and junior year,
they merged the school systems. But one of the things they wanted you to do was
you go to the school nearest you, that's in your district. Well, I lived on
Montclair Drive. That's the Lafayette School District. My parents had to pay a
tuition of some sort for me to go to, uh, Henry Clay and continue my education
at Henry Clay, which is, by the way, where my father graduated from. Had some
00:28:00of the same teachers he did. That was not a
CRANE: That's scary. (laughs)
WIDES: That was scary. Tha--you know, they remembered him. (Crane coughs).
Uh, and they remembered his twin sister. Uh, so they had to pay. The only
caveat, besides that, was you're responsible for your own transportation.
There's no school bus that's going come pick you up. There are city buses. You
can ride that or get a ride. So between the junior and senior year, wh--after
that was resolved, David and I would drive, in that big long white DeSoto that
he got from his grandmother. I don't know if you remember that or not. But it
was long, white. And it--it stretched from here to Nicholasville. It--it was big.
CRANE: As we both know, there were only a handful or two of Jewish students at
any school in Lexington--
WIDES: Um-hm.
CRANE: --during our school-age years. (Wides clears his throat). What was it
like for you, as a young Jewish male, during your school experiences? What
00:29:00impact did being Jewish have or have not, uh, on your school years?
WIDES: I always thought I was kind of special, because, uh--uh, never felt
segregated, uh, uh, ostracized, kept out of the loop, or anything. Uh, I was
involved in several activities in the school. Uh, you know, you're--you're on
the swim team. One year, I was, uh, actually on the football team, until I
broke a leg.
CRANE: Uh
WIDES: Uh, band, Key Club. Uh, there were just lots of activity. So I never
really felt it. There were times when, uh, uh--Passover, you know, I'd be
taking matzo sandwiches to--to school for lunch. Because obviously, I'm not
going be eating the--what's ever being served out of the cafeteria. Which, I
00:30:00still don't know what was being served out of there. But, you know, where the
old Henry Clay was, now the central office building, a couple restaurants across
the street, specifically, Clay's, spent a lot of time there at lunchtime.
CRANE: Eating those French fries and gravy.
WIDES: Lots of French fries and gravy, lots of French--and Coke, real Coke.
There--there was no such thing as Diet Coke or Coke Zero or whatever.
Occasionally, we'd get them to pour some cherry juice in it.
CRANE: Describe how or if you connected with the larger Jewish community in
Lexington. You've--you've touched on that a little bit by sharing that you had
friends at the synagogue. But what about Louisville or Cincinnati? Uh, what
was--uh, ho how were your Youth Group experiences connecting you with a larger
Jewish community? And what impact did that have?
WIDES: Uh, because of Youth Group, I would get to go to Fort Wayne. I'd go to,
uh, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, you know, and see all these kids from all these
00:31:00other towns, Terre Haute, you know, obviously Louisville, uh, and people that I
just didn't know. But they were just like you and me. And that was really kind
of neat, going to--Went to OFTY 2, to camp, one year. Went to NFTY 2, up in,
uh, Warwick, New York. Uh, gosh, that was fun. (coughs). Uh, and there were
three of us that went from, uh, our little, uh, you know, Ohio Valley, uh, OFTY
group. Rode the train, all the way up to Warwick--and back, two girls and me.
And, uh, that was good.
CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life or Jewish ritual, growing up?
00:32:00
WIDES: Well, I'll mention two. One was Hanukkah. My mother really decorated
the house for Hanukkah. It was an elaborate holiday. Uh, and there were
actually Hanukkah house decorating contests.
CRANE: At the temple?
WIDES: At the temple. And we actually won it several times.
CRANE: Oh!
WIDES: Uh, so I remember those.
CRANE: What were the decorations like?
WIDES: Just banners. It would say, "Happy Hanukkah." Whatever she could find
at, uh, the temple gift shop, or what she could make. There was no Internet, so
you can't go online and find everything that you can find today. Uh, lots of
00:33:00blue and gold, lots of blue and gold. Uh, and I remember--And I would invite my
neighbor from across the street, Pete Hemphill. You might remember Pete.
CRANE: Uh
WIDES: And he was my best friend, growing up, other than David. Uh, so he
would always come over. We'd invite him over for the first night, to light the
candles on the first night. And he always thought that was neat. Then Irene
and Walter would always invite me over to help decorate their Christmas tree,
regardless of when it was. And I thought that was kind of neat t--So we got to
share that back and forth. So that go--that addresses a little bit about how it
was to interact and so forth. Uh, and then the second, obviously, was my bar mitzvah.
CRANE: And what was that like, for you?
WIDES: Well, for me, it was--it was a little different. Uh, we had to
00:34:00transition rabbis, from when I started, to the rabbi that was the officiating
rabbi for my bar mitzvah. Joe Rosenblum is who I started with. Lovely man.
And then we got this guy named, uh, Rothman--(laughs)--Rabbi Rothman. And, uh,
he was different. Probably would never have gotten through my bar mitzvah had
it not been for another gentleman here in Lexington, by the name of Bill
Shraberg. Bill taught me all the Hebrew that I would ever need to know and then
some, got me through all the prayers. I spent many a day, uh, at the Shrabergs,
uh, doing my Hebrew lessons. That's where I learned Hebrew, not at the temple.
CRANE: So, uh
WIDES: So tha that was fun. And, uh, uh, I will forever be in my debt to--to
00:35:00Bill Shraberg for that. Uh, still see David, uh, uh--whenever I'm at temple, I
see him, uh, occasionally will see each other socially. But there's not as much
interaction, I don't think, today, on a deliberate basis, as there was, say, uh,
fifteen years ago, maybe twenty years ago, uh, at the temple, when, uh,
uh--There were a group of about six couples. And that's where everybody was.
They--we were doing everything, from trips to, uh, movies to dinners to
whatever, here in Lexington. Uh, as we all got older, started to branch out a
little bit more. And some o' the families didn't stay the same. (laughs).
CRANE: Uh--
WIDES: --so. But, uh
00:36:00
CRANE: --uh, before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything
else unique we should know about your family background or your childhood years,
that you'd like to share?
WIDES: Uh, at the moment, none that I can think of. But should I remember
something that I think might be interesting, uh, I'll spit it out.
CRANE: Okay. Let's--before we get into, uh, your college life, can we talk
about the pictures you brought? I noticed that you, uh--(Wides clears his
throat)--we probably should have talked about them when you were
WIDES: --uh
CRANE: --talking about the business but
WIDES: --I hope this doesn't glare. Uh, and I'll be more than happy to leave
these with you. And, uh, just give them back to me when you can.
CRANE: I will.
WIDES: This first picture, uh, is a picture of the very first truck that my
father and uncle owned. The gentleman behind the wheel is George. And, uh,
00:37:00George Jackson was the first employee they hired. And I remember Uncle George.
That's what I always called him, was Uncle George. And, uh, this is what they
would go and pick up the scrap in. And this is what they would also take down
the highway to Cincinnati or wherever they were selling it. (clears throat).
Excuse me. The second is a group of snapshots. Uh, this is loading--We had a
railroad siding at Wides Material, right there off Seventh Street. So we would
load scrap into the railroad cars and then that would go to the mills.
(coughs). You have to excuse me. Uh, so this is the first load being loaded.
Uh, just some miscellaneous--of cutting the scrap and getting it prepared to go.
00:38:00You had to get it cut down into sizes that they would accept at the mill. Uh,
this was a big--what we called an alligator shear. And it would just rip
through anything, literally. Loading another car. And then, as I said, we, uh,
slowly evolved into this steel business that we were doing. And this is a
picture--and this building actually still exists, on, uh, Delaware Avenue.
CRANE: Um-hm.
WIDES: Uh, it's where Room Service is now. And I got involved in that a little
bit, when I was first starting out in Wides Material. So, uh--oh, wait a
minute. No. This is the one at Kentucky Lighting. The one on Delaware was the
second--uh, was the second one. And that's the one I did. This is where
Kentucky Lighting was--is, on, uh
CRANE: --Winchester
00:39:00
WIDES: --Winchester Road, which is, obviously, still standing.
CRANE: Okay.
WIDES: S
CRANE: --thank you.
WIDES: I keep these on my wall at the o--at my office. I work out of the house.
CRANE: That's pretty nice. (Wides clears his throat). I know that you
graduated high school in June of 1966, and therefore probably started college
that following fall.
WIDES: Um-hm.
CRANE: So in 1966, why did you decided to attend the University of Kentucky?
WIDES: Got a partial, uh--scholarship help, uh, for the swim team. I was a
swimmer. And it wasn't much. Uh, I think it was more in name only. There--I
don't think it was, uh, much--uh, there might have been 100 bucks, if there was
anything. (clears throat). And
CRANE: --which would have paid a whole semester--
WIDES: --it was close--
CRANE: --back then.
WIDES: It was close. Twelve dollars an hour, I think, is what it cost when I
started college. And the--and the books were nowhere near as expensive as they
00:40:00are now, which, they're darn near as expensive as--as a semester of school,
anymore. But, uh, wasn't real sure what I was going do. I know I had, uh,
counseling meetings with, uh, Harriet Rose, who was a counselor at UK--I don't
know if you recall that or not--and trying to figure out what I should major in.
I thought, well, to the business--should I get into engineering, be like my
dad? I wasn't s--I had no clue, absolutely no clue. I would have been better
off not going to school. Uh, settled on engineering. So got enrolled in that.
And going to swim practice a lot and doing other things. And my grade-point
average that first semester was a 0.53. Now keep in mind I was an honor roll
00:41:00student at Henry Clay, Key Club, Beta Club, all that good stuff. But I guess
Henry Clay was just that easy. Uh, or maybe they just gave me the grades. I
have no clue. But, uh, probably partied a little bit more than I should have.
The next semester was a 3.2. And it stayed about 3, 3.4, something like that
the rest of the way through, until I decided I don't need this crap anymore.
I'm just going to go and do what I'm doing. Because I'm doing really well at
what I do, uh, selling all this steel, designing these buildings. I don't need
to finish this last semester of school. What's ?
CRANE: --so you left before you--the
WIDES: --I left before I graduated. S
CRANE: --what were your--while you were there, what were your living accommodations?
WIDES: Uh, started out living at home. Uh, later moved to an apartment--uh, or
00:42:00a house, actu--Hampton Court, with a friend of mine. I had transferred from
engineering to architecture. So, uh, the guy was year older than me, school of
architecture, said, "Hey I'm going to start" he was from Barbourville, by the
way, which, kind of tie between that and my daughter and son-in-law--uh, said,
"Why don't we rent this house together?" Uh, well, why not? This is great. So
there I am, out on my own finally, living the dream, working in the summer,
going to school part-time in the summer to try to catch back up, an--and just
get rid of some classes that I didn't want to take during the regular school
year, and then we were living in this house, this--on Hampton Court. And it was
an absolutely gorgeous home.
CRANE: Uh
00:43:00
WIDES: --and keep in mind--we'll preface that a little bit. Uh, in my Youth
Group days, specifically my last year, uh, being president and traveling around
especially the Louisville area and whatnot--and, uh, my family--uh, my mother's
family was from Louisville. Uh, got cousins who still live there. Uh, I met a
young lady. And we started dating while I was in high school. She ended up
going on to Ohio State. And at some point in time, uh, after I graduated--You
know, I'd go to Louisville, spend the night. We'd do whatever we would do. And
then I'd come back. I'd got a job as a lifeguard, uh, at a new pool that was
just opened up for the benefit of the Greater Lexington Aquatic Club. But it
00:44:00was actually opened up--uh, it was called GLAC, Greater Lexington Aquatic Club,
but it was opened for the benefit of the Greater Lexington Swim Association
which was the first and only swim team in central Kentucky. There are several
teams in central Kentucky now. The swimming accommodations aren't much better
than they were then. But we needed a place where we could get a dedicated
space, dedicated pool, uh, more than what UK and the Y had. So my dad, along
with three or four other gentlemen, pooled money together and bought the old,
uh, Cross Keys YMCA
CRANE: --uh
WIDES: --which also had a--or Cross Key, uh--it wasn't the Y then. It was just
the Cross Keys. There was an ice skating rink there. If you--outdoor rink
there, there was a pool.
CRANE: Uh
WIDES: They bought this place, uh, put a building over the twenty-five-meter
00:45:00portion of the pool, to enclose it in. And that's where we all went for swim
practice. But in that timeframe of buying that, uh, they opened the pool up to
the public to get members in to help pay the debt, obviously. So I was a
lifeguard. Uh
CRANE: --and this is while you were in college?
WIDES: Uh, this was be--this was right after high school
CRANE: --oh. Okay--
WIDES: --of '66. And the reason I'm getting to that is because of the girl and
then--who I subsequently met and married. Uh, and I'm walking around. There
were three of us, uh, that were the lifeguards. And you can imagine a pool that
size and only three lifeguards. But that's all we had. Uh, that's partially
00:46:00why I got the partial, walk on scholarship, if you will, because Wynn Paul was
the general manager of the club who was also the UK swim coach. So. Uh, that's
how I met my w--my future wife. Uh, she was the b blonde on the side of the
pool in the cute little bikini.
CRANE: Sunbathing.
WIDES: Oh, yeah. Uh, and I was--(coughs)--I was a little bit smaller than I am
now. But then, weren't we all, fifty years ago? (laughs).
CRANE: So describe a day in--in your life as a college student on UK's campus.
Uh, clearly, I think what you're telling me is that you had a girlfriend from
the beginning of college on.
WIDES: Correct.
CRANE: Okay. Uh, but what did you do? Where did you go? And, uh
WIDES: --typically
CRANE: --how did being Jewish impact your day-to-day experiences on campus?
00:47:00
WIDES: Being Jewish didn't really
CRANE: --okay
WIDES: --uh, have anything--uh, there--there was not very much involvement. I
was not involved with ZBT, which was the only Jewish, uh, fraternity on campus
at the time. Uh, not sure why. But just did--My father was a member of ZBT.
Uh, I was basically a--a commuter student, if you will. I would drive in, uh,
try to find parking, like everybody else. It was even bad--it was worse then, I
guess, than it is now. I'm not sure. Got my share of parking tickets. Go to
class. Uh, if I found a really good spot--uh, as the years we--as a couple
years went on and I transferred into the school of architecture--uh as you got
into the program, you got a little bit--uh, uh, you got s--your seniority, and
00:48:00started, really, moving into that as a full-time, uh, course of study, you would
be given a--an area--or you could, uh, stake out an area that would be your, uh,
area for your design work, e et cetera. So that would be your base of
operations. And I can remember, you know, uh, guys would bring in, uh,
hotplates, they'd bring in coffee pots. Uh, you'd have your own, uh, radios
there, for, uh, listening to music. Uh, some had small tape recorders. Because
back then, you--that's what you had. Uh, and that's how we got through. And I
would spend--I might park the car on Tuesday and not leave--(coughs)--get back
to the car until, you know, Thursday or Friday. I would spend all that time
00:49:00there. Uh, I guess we smelled pretty bad. I don't know. Uh, but, you know,
when you're in those design studios, it's--you're doing your other work, you're
going to the other classes, and then you go back to your base of operations.
Uh, I probably spent more time in the Pence Hall library than I did in this
library, at Margaret King. Because most of my course of study involved stuff
that would be found there as opposed to here. Uh, and then maybe I'd go over to
the Student Center, grab something to eat. Uh
CRANE: --Mark, it was my understanding that, while you were at the University
of Kentucky, you were involved to some degree in the establishment or an
attempted establishment of the Jewish fraternity AEPi [Alpha Epsilon Pi].
WIDES: That's correct.
CRANE: Uh, can you tell me a little bit about your involvement and any others
who--that you can remember that were involved and how and why AEPi came to be at
00:50:00UK or why it's no longer there or ?
WIDES: --don't know why it's no longer there. Uh, we got a--there was a
gentleman from University of Texas, Dr. John Perl (??).
CRANE: And, uh
WIDES: Remember John
CRANE: --I do remember him.
WIDES: He's the one who got it, basically, started, brought somebody down from
national and so forth, and invited me and, uh, uh, other people from the campus,
that I didn't know at that point in time but later came to know, people like,
uh, Ben Bayer--uh, uh, and then Bennett Bayer, later on--And, uh, found a house
UK owned and we sort of cleaned up, made up. Some of the things I remember from
that house--uh, reminiscent of what you see in the movie Animal House. I mean,
00:51:00it was, uh--there were times when it was kind of--you know, you look, uh, back
now, it was kind of scary. Keep in mind I was dating Vonne, a at that point in
time, and I had been. And I was more concerned--you know, I was going to do
this stuff with AEPi but I was more concerned--I was focused on her and what I
could get there--(clears throat)--young and stupid. But--uh, so I was really
the only member of AEPi--And we did establish the--the chapter there.
CRANE: Do you remember--was it Lambda?
WIDES: --Lambda Chi. Or is it Lambda Kappa?
CRANE: Lam--Lambda Kappa, I think, is
WIDES: --Lambda Kappa.
CRANE: Okay. And what year was that?
WIDES: Uh, that had to be around seven--uh, '69, '70, somewhere in that
neighborhood. And I remember, uh--You know, I was the only one seriously dating
anybody. Uh, Johnny was going to, uh, dental school here. And he was dating
00:52:00anybody and everybody that he could, uh--with.
CRANE: You could probably leave that out.
WIDES: Leave that part out? Uh
CRANE: --kidding.
WIDES: Uh, he was having a good time too. Uh, and then, uh
CRANE: --where was the fraternity house?
WIDES: It was on Maxwell. The house is still there. I think it's a sorority
house now. Should have been torn down. But I think they--UK came in and
renovated it. Uh, I'm sure we demolished it. I know that we went in an and did
some renovations on the inside, as far as, uh, uh, making some rooms--you know,
subdividing rooms and so forth, like that. And I'd stayed there for a while. I
know Vonne went over. It was a really bad kitchen. But we used what we had. I
know she went over and cooked some meals for everybody. And I remember
everybody really enjoyed it when they heard that Vonne was coming over to cook.
Vonne started out at UK, was going to school there, and went about two and a
00:53:00half years and said, uh, "I just don't want to do this" and got--started working
full-time--uh, and then ended up having a good career at UK.
CRANE: Do--uh, do you recall, besides, uh, Benjy Bayer--and you--any other?
WIDES: --Alan Stein became a member.
CRANE: Okay. Alan. Who else?
WIDES: I can see-I can see faces. Uh, uh, my memory's shot.
CRANE: You said Bennett?
WIDES: Bennett Bayer, later on.
CRANE: Okay.
WIDES: Uh, he became a member. Uh, I was--I was the first married member.
Because we got married in '70 and it was still--in fact most of those fraternity
brothers were at the wedding. Uh, there was a lot of free alcohol. That's why
they showed up, I believe. But, uh, we even conti--Vonne and I even continued
00:54:00to participate. Uh, she would go over and cook meals, for, you know, a year or
so after, uh, we got married. And then, uh--then it be--just became more, you
know, uh, I've got work to do, uh, she's got work to do. We had other things to do.
CRANE: How did? Uh, you said that Johnny, uh, brought someone down from national.
WIDES: He did.
CRANE: Do you don't recall who that was? Was it somebody else
WIDES: --he actually brought
CRANE: --from Houston?
WIDES: --somebody from Ohi--it was from Ohio University
CRANE: --oh, okay--
WIDES: --who was coming on behalf of national.
CRANE: Okay.
WIDES: I remember him. Uh, I can visually see. And I'll probably remember in
the shower, uh, two days from now, "Oh! That's who that was." Uh, little bit
00:55:00shorter than I am, little bit stockier than I am even now, uh, dark hair. And,
uh, he was a grad student or maybe a--was he a grad student or was he a teacher?
Maybe professor at Ohio University. I know he was from Ohio University. But
somehow, they got together an and brought this--brought this here.
CRANE: Can you describe some of the activities, um, the formal activities, and
role of AEPi on UK's campus?
WIDES: No. Don't remember. I remember the parties. But those weren't formal.
Certainly nothing to the benefit of the, uh, UK, uh, community.
CRANE: Uh, did AEPi interact with other, uh, Greek life on campus?
WIDES: We did, uh, to a point. I mean, we--uh, we had a representative on the
00:56:00council, of course, uh, you know, did have to work to maintain grades. Uh, I
know some of them did get involved in campus life, as individuals, not as,
uh--(clears throat)--not as a AEPi member so much as--but being part of the, uh,
IFC [Interfraternity Council], uh, getting involved there. Uh, Alan was a prime
example of that. Uh
CRANE: --how so?
WIDES: Well, he got--he go--he did a lot of, uh, campus--well, I guess it goes
back to what I just said we didn't do. But he did, as an individual. But he
was doing it because he was a member of AEPi. But I think--uh, I'm not sure if
it was because he was a member of AEPi or because he just wanted that
involvement. Maybe it was both--probably.
CRANE: How long did the fraternity last on campus?
WIDES: Don't know when it ended. I really do not know. Uh, I know I've had
00:57:00correspondence, over the last twenty-five, thirty years, about trying to bring
it back, and had a call, uh, maybe just two, three years ago, from somebody
wanting to bring it back. Uh, just coincidentally, my cousin-in-law, who's
married to my cousin, uh, Barry Schwartz, served as AEPi, uh, president, uh,
national president, several years ago, still sits on the board. But the call
was not from, uh, Barry. It was from someone else.
CRANE: What was the climate on campus?
WIDES: --oh, I know who the other person was, that
CRANE: --oh!
WIDES: --that helped start it here, Steve Coller (??).
CRANE: Oh!
WIDES: He was--he was the other individual, in addition to this, uh, young man
from, uh, Ohio University. So it was those three. (clears throat).
00:58:00
CRANE: Thank you. What was the climate on campus like for Jews to become
members of non-Jewish fraternities? And was ZBT still around
WIDES: --I don't think
CRANE: --at this ti?
WIDES: --uh, it was still around but, uh, uh--they never came after me at all.
I never really went over there. Uh, I don't know why--uh, on either side of
that. But they were minor. I think they were still living in a house over off
of, uh--was it Columbia, maybe?
CRANE: Rose Lane.
WIDES: Rose Lane. Excuse me. Rose Lane. But other than that, no, I don't
know. Uh, you have to understand the, uh, climate--political climate of the
time. Vietnam was at its height. Kent State occurred while I was--UK, the
00:59:00burning of the ROTC [Reserve Officer' Training Corps] building here at UK.
CRANE: That's true.
WIDES: Uh, you know, it was total antiestablishment. Uh, my hair, at that
point in time, was as long as yours is now. Uh, it just--it was a different
time--uh, in ways not much different than it is now. Uh, I think the, uh--the
discontent was--was more vocal and, uh, certainly a lot less violent than it is now.
CRANE: Do you think that had, uh, an impact on why AEPi di--w wasn't really
01:00:00grounded or ZBT wasn't as grounded as some of the other fraternities?
WIDES: (clears throat). Not sure about ZBT. Because they've been around for a
while, obviously. Uh, AEPi, maybe yes. Uh, it still is a very small Jewish
community, if you will, or Jewish population at UK. So if you got two, in
essence, predominant or almost exclusive, if you will, uh, Jewish fraternities,
where you've only got maybe thirty or forty, uh, Jewish men out of the total UK,
uh, enrollment, it's kind of tough to maintain two houses--with, uh, so few
me--numbers. And then we weren't always able to identify, you know, and then go
01:01:00out and grab them. We did get, uh, non-Jewish members at AEPi. Uh, and I
think, uh, over the years, as--you know, the other fraternities now are much
more all-inclusive. I'm sure there's exceptions.
CRANE: Describe, uh--(Wides clears his throat)--any experience you had with
other Jewish organizations on campus, such as Hillel.
WIDES: None with Hillel. Tried it, uh, once or twice, going to the thing that
was sponsored by the temple. And it was just--no.
CRANE: Okay. Did you have relationships with other Jewish students, outside of AEPi?
WIDES: Other than people like David Rose, who I grew up with, or Harry
Cohen--uh, grew up with, uh, uh, not really.
CRANE: Did your time at UK, your involvement with AEPi, uh, or growing up
01:02:00Jewish, did that that affect your--uh, your dating? Obviously not your
marriage. Uh
WIDES: --no. Uh, I was still your--your typical young male, other than I had a girlfriend.
CRANE: What was your Jewish life, uh--what was Jewish life in Lexington like,
when you were a student?
WIDES: Still went to temple, uh, semi-regularly. I would make sure--you know,
there for the holidays. Uh, you know, sometimes when I was at UK and you had,
you know, holidays where you'd have to miss class, you know, some of the
teachers and professors were understanding and some, "You're not here,
you're--you're going lose." They were not understanding whatsoever. Uh, there
01:03:00were times when, uh, I had to miss services, because I knew I would
not--(laughs)--uh, get credit for the class or for the work if I wasn't there.
And they wouldn't allow you to make it up. And I remember a couple times that
we had gone to the administration to say, "Hey, come on. Uh, they got to be a
little bit tolerant, to allow us," you know, "to go to Rosh Hashanah service" or
Yom Kippur or whatever it may have been. And, uh, somewhat met with a, uh,
stone wall. They just--uh, some were understanding, and understood it, I guess
those who grew up more cosmopolitan. There were some that just, "You're not
here, you don't get credit." In fact, you get counted down. And, uh, you know,
01:04:00you miss that class once and get--you lose that work, you don't miss it a second time.
CRANE: You've talked a little bit about your Jewish life after college, uh, and
why you stayed in Lexington, in order to continue working--and that your wife's
family is, obviously, from here as well.
WIDES: Um-hm.
CRANE: Uh, and you've mentioned, a little bit, about your kids--you know, what
it was like with your kids. They--uh, did they go to Sunday school? Uh, I guess
WIDES: All thr
CRANE: --can you describe your?
WIDES: --all three di--all three did
CRANE: --okay
WIDES: --especially while I was teaching.
CRANE: Okay.
WIDES: When I stopped teaching, uh, I think they--uh, we had them there for at
least one or two more years but, after that, it just stopped. Uh, like in any
marriage, there are really good times and there are some times that are kind of
tough. And it was at a tough time, for, uh, things that have nothing to do with
01:05:00being Jewish. It was just tough times with some other issues. And, uh, uh, I
was just struggling--we were struggling just to keep the family together, to
keep pushing forward, to get through that--those personal issues that we were
having. And I'll leave it at that.
CRANE: How was your Jewishness different from that of your parents? Or for
that matter, how is it different from that of your children, as well?
WIDES: Uh, my parents were raised Jewish. You--you know, Dad went to temple
all the time. I'm not real sure with my mother but I'm sure much the same. So
you were expected to date Jewish, marry Jewish. Uh, there was a lot of, uh,
discontent, if you will, one, because I was dating non Jewish and then became
01:06:00engaged. That b--made even a worse family situation, from my side, not hers.
Uh, the rabbi at the time was Bill Leffler. And, uh, he wanted nothing to do
with us, even went so far as to, uh, go to my future father-in-law and talk to
him. Uh, my dad was, "Okay, this is what you're going do. This is what you're
going do." My mother loved Vonne, so it didn't really matter to her. She was
much more open to that. My grandmother, uh, very much, uh, didn't like it but
liked Vonne. My uncle, Ed, Dad's brother, was really pissed. They eve--Ed and
01:07:00Evelyn even had us over for dinner one night. And basically, it was to
basically say, "You're going be disinherited from the family, if you do this, if
you keep going on like this. You need to stop this right now." We thought it
was just welcoming us to the family type of dinner and it was the intervention,
if you will. I guess that's what they call them now. (clears throat). And I
guess that was the beginning of the end with me and my uncle, with regard to,
uh, being able to, uh, either inherit Wides Material Company or be able to buy
Wides Material Company. My uncle was not a saint, by any stretch of the
imagination. Uh, I've got flaws. Uh, not even go there with what he had, lots
01:08:00of baggage, lots of baggage. So it was rather sanctimonious, to me, with, uh,
his attitude an and comments. Evelyn went along with him for a little while and
then decided, "You know, Vonne's not that bad. We kind of like her. And, oh,
by the way, she makes great matzo ball soup." She makes great chicken soup.
Sh- she fixes brisket better than anybody else in the family. You know. Uh,
she kept a pretty good, uh, if you will, somewhat Jewish household. Uh, so it
got through it. It got through it. So.
CRANE: And your kids?
WIDES: Uh, Alison, uh, I think she still considers herself Jewish. She allows
her kids to go to--to church every--every week or every other week or whatever,
because there is no other--there's no, uh--there's no other religion down there.
01:09:00There's this little Baptist religion and that's about it, down there in, uh,
Knox County. It's--so there--there is no Judaism down there, per se. But, you
know, wh when you talk with her, uh, when you see some of her writings, uh,
she's very much more comfortable, I would think, acknowledging herself as--as
Jewish than not. [Rustling] Brandon, uh, he's now decided that, uh--although he
still has a lot of Jewish friends and continues, to this day, corresponding with
those that he went to, uh, Youth Group camp with for a couple years, still to
this day corresponds with them. But he's, uh--he goes to Southland Christian
Church. So. And then Justin, uh, he's not an atheist. I don't think he's an
01:10:00agnostic either. He's just--it's not a point of r reference. He'll go with me
to temple, when I ask, if he's available. Uh, but it's not a point of reference
for him, whatsoever.
CRANE: What has been the role of Israel or Zionism in your activities or your
identity as a Jew?
WIDES: Uh, I would say my annual contributions to, uh--on Super Sunday. Uh,
sat on the board for several terms.
CRANE: The board?
WIDES: --of the
CRANE: --Federation?
WIDES: --Federation. Uh, was the co-chair of Super Sunday for two years. So,
01:11:00uh--And continue, to this day, you know, making my suppor--Never been to Israel.
That's on my bucket list. Vonne has no desire to go, whatsoever. But that is
on my bucket list. Dad went two or three times. Uh, my sister Laura lived in
Israel for about two years, on a kibbutz. Uh, and, when she came back, in,
uh she came back in '75, when my mom got real sick, uh, to be with her, and
then I think was planning on going back and then, unfortunately, never made it back.
CRANE: I highly recommend it--th the trip.
WIDES: It is--uh, you know, uh, uh, I watch with envy and read with envy what
01:12:00John Adland's been--you know, his trips and Marc Kline's trips and, uh, Steve
Coller, his trips that he's talked about. And, uh, I just have to do it. Uh,
that's--and I--I'm still physically able, that I can do the walking. Thank God
for Jeff Selby and my new knee. Uh, they make parts that really work. And, uh,
so, yeah, that's--that's number one on my bucket list.
CRANE: How have things changed in Lexington, uh, since you've been here, as far
as the Jewish community? Or do you see the changes?
WIDES: Hm. I think, overall, uh, the community is much more accepting. Uh, I
01:13:00never felt discriminated against--there--uh, as an individu--You know, maybe,
uh, the--maybe there were one or two people that--you know, just totally
ignorant. Uh, obviously, it's--it--uh, some things have changed. Like, you
know, there's Jewish members out at the Lexington Country Club. Uh, there's
even, uh, some, I think, at Idle Hour now, finally. Uh, these are clubs that,
you know, prohibited Jews. And I can remember growing up an and in high school,
you know, going to Cotillion. And, uh, well, they would have their dances at a
variety of places, including places that--normal activities, I couldn't go to.
Uh, like, Idle Hour Country Club, they would have a dance there or Lexington
01:14:00Country Club. Can't tell you how many dances I went to, both those places.
Never an issue. Uh, uh, there was that discrimination then. Uh, I know, when,
uh, we would have, uh--y--close the--the office for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur,
put the sign up out on the front gate, "Closed today for Jewish New Year" or Yom
Kippur, uh, our customers understood it. And we had customers from all over
central and eastern Kentucky. We'd put out a notice and mail it out a couple
weeks in advance, that we're going be closed. Uh, I know there were a couple
businesses--I don't think Baker Iron and Metal closed. I think they stayed
open. I think Harry Gordon Steel stayed open. But we closed. And the
01:15:00customers were very understanding. Did it cost us business? I don't think so.
I cannot address that directly. But, you know, they seemed to understand. They
wor--you know, when I would talk with people on the phone, no issue.
"Tha that's no pro" Totally different times of running business. There were
no computers. There were no fax machines. Well, later on there became a fax
machine. Uh, you know, no email, no instant message, no any of that, where you
expect, you know, instant gratification like you have today. Uh, I think that's
one of the things that helps keep me grounded a little bit, is that, uh, I'm
able to work with that but that doesn't control me, as much. Because I don't
need as much instant gratification as a lot of my customers need. Uh, my kids
01:16:00seem to want it but they seem to understand. And they're--they're working
through that and becoming much less of the instant gratification type. And,
uh--and I think that's to a--to the good.
CRANE: Looking back on your life, what, if anything, would you change about
your relationship with Judaism?
WIDES: This is on the record too. Uh, I would have demanded that the kids be
raised Jewish. I regret that to this day. I think it would have made them a
lot more grounded. Because it somewhat leaves them wandering, with--l lacking
that identity or any identity. Uh, that's my mistake. And I'll have to live
01:17:00with that. Uh, they've turned out to be pretty good people. But I think it
could've been so much better, in certain respects. Uh, I know one of, uh,
Brandon's closest friends was, uh, Alicia Rose. They talked all the time--never
dated. Uh, they were like brother and sister. And I think, uh--I think
that's--it's my biggest regret.
CRANE: Is there anything else that you would like to share, that I haven't
already asked you about, that this is Jewish history of central Kentucky, Lexington?
01:18:00
WIDES: Y yes, a little bit about, uh, you know, growing up here in Lexington,
fifty years ago, sixty years ago, and being Jewish here, uh, today. The
business climate has totally changed. Uh, you have a lot of--there were a lot
of values, I think, within the Jewish community, specifically in the Jewish
business community, that poured over into other, uh, outside businesses, you
know, gentile businesses, if you will, uh, that helped drive those businesses
with things like compassion and understanding. Uh, you don't have that today.
01:19:00It's just--it's just everybody thinks everything's supposed to be black and
white. And it's not all black and white. There's lots of grays.
CRANE: And why do you think those Jewish businesses had that impact on the
larger business community?
WIDES: I think because of the--the values that they had growing up, the work
ethic that they inherited from their parents--inherited from their parents. Uh,
and it wasn't just--You know, going along with work ethic and, uh, family ethics
an and relationship, uh, it all intertwined. And I don't think, to a great
01:20:00extent, it does that anymore, anywhere, in the society that we're in. Uh--I
wish it did but
CRANE: That's an interesting perspective. Uh, Mark, this has been lovely.
I've really enjoyed spending time with you and hearing, uh
WIDES: --we should do it more often
CRANE: --yeah!
WIDES: --off the record.
CRANE: Off the record. (clears throat). I agr
WIDES: Vonne wou--Vonne would love to meet you.
CRANE: That would be great. I would like to meet her.
WIDES: We would go have a glass of wine, or maybe a bottle or two.
CRANE: Thank you, so much, for doing this.
WIDES: Thank you for allowing me the time.
[End of interview.]
