Interview with Larry Kass, October 1, 2015

WALDMAN:--and rolling.

FERNHEIMER: Hello. Uh, my name is Janice Fernheimer. I am the director of Jewish Studies at the University of Kentucky. Today is October first, 2015, and it is my great honor and pleasure to be here with my collaborator, JT Waldman. And with Larry Kass of Heaven Hill, uh, Brands?

KASS: Brands. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: That recently changed, so I wanted to make sure I had that right.

KASS: Yes, it did change.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, thank you so much for being willing to spend an afternoon with us. This interview is part of a large collection called the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence: Jewish Kentucky Project. And it is part of a subset of interviews within that project dedi--dedicated to Jews and bourbon. And we're going to start just by asking us--asking you (laughs) to tell us a little bit about yourself. Um, where you were born, uh, what was your name at birth?

KASS: Sure.

FERNHEIMER: When were you born?

KASS: Sure.

FERNHEIMER: Are your parents still alive?

KASS: Right.

FERNHEIMER: Um, let's start with those, and then we'll keep going.

KASS: Okay. Sure. There's, uh, plenty there. Um, uh, I'm--Lawrence Peter 00:01:00Kass is my name, which is actually interesting, because I share a name with Yogi Berra, who just passed away. His name was Lawrence Peter Berra. And, uh, so people called me yogi when I was growing up, actually. (laughs) Um, a complete aside. But, um, I--I'm actually from, uh--born and raised in Connecticut, though I do try to kind of keep that quiet in the bourbon world. It's kind of an occupational liability to say you're from Connecticut in the bourbon world, I think. So I--um, but yeah, I was born and raised in--in Connecticut. And, um, uh, I came to Kentucky, uh, twenty-two years ago. Um, I was in advertising and marketing in New York, and, uh, had been in New York for about ten years, and got a little tired of--of living in New York. And it's g--a great place to live. But if you can't kind of strike the proper balance, it can--it can wear you out pretty quick. So, um, as I say, I was neither young enough nor rich 00:02:00enough to enjoy life in New York. (laughs) So, um, so I came to Kentucky. I actually had known Louisville--because I had a good friend in college that was from here, so I used to come here for Kentucky Derby every year, and of course, thought this was the greatest place in the world because there was Kentucky Derby, and wow, this place is great. So, um, I c--actually met m--my--who's now my wife here, and, uh, she actually moved up to New York. And, uh, after she lived up in New York for about six months, and I said, "I need to move out of New York, would you be interested in moving into Louisville with me?" And, uh--and so that's how that happened. Um, I was in advertising and marketing. Uh, as I mentioned, I worked for some big ad agencies in New York, and came here, and started an ad agency that ended up winning the Heaven Hill business. I was running the direct marketing part of that agency. And after they won the Heaven Hill business, I started working on the Heaven Hill account. And, um, after about two years there, I got the opportunity to come over and work at Heaven Hill, and I jumped at that opportunity and have been here ever since.

FERNHEIMER: What year was that?

KASS: Um, I joined the company in 1998. Um, so, um, I've been here, I'm going to seventeen years, something like that, almost eighteen years. It's--it's way longer than I had ever been at any other job before that. Uh, but it's a--it's a--it's just a great place to work, and, uh, I could talk more about that. But, um, and, uh, like I said, I was--I was born and raised in Connecticut. Um, I, uh, went to a conservative temple there. I spent, uh, the summer of my junior year in Israel, actually. That would have been 1978, which was an interesting time to be in Israel. That was right--I was actually probably one of the last groups that was in the Sinai before they handed it back to Egypt. Um, and, uh--um, uh, you know, as I h--I--I've been in the business, I guess, in a great time. Um, I've actually been in the business for a while, now. It's interesting, I'm actually--of all our competitors, our big company competitors, I'm--been in this business way longer than anybody else in any of the companies. 00:04:00They seem to come and go three or four times. But i--it's been a great time to be in the business from the standpoint of the--I mean, the bourbon world has just exploded in the past, really, seven, eight, ten years, something like that. So I got to see what it was like beforehand, and I got to see what it's like since then. So, um, so, what were the other--I know the background questions that you were asking me about.

FERNHEIMER: So, you know, take us a little bit away from bourbon--

KASS: Okay.

FERNHEIMER:--and then we're going to come back to bourbon.

KASS: Okay.

FERNHEIMER: So, uh, I'm sorry, and forgive me if you said, but what year were you born?

KASS: I was born in 1962.

FERNHEIMER: Nineteen sixty-two.

KASS: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: And are your parents still alive?

KASS: Uh, interestingly enough, it was actually--the new year just came and went, of course, and I was happy to see the last year end, because I lost both of my parents in the past year.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, I'm so sorry.

KASS: Actually, since April. Lost both of my parents, two and a half months apart. And my wife lost both of her parents in the past year, too.

FERNHEIMER: Oy.

KASS: So I--it's been--it's been a tough year for us with parents, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

KASS: Um, so, uh, you--

FERNHEIMER: I'm sorry to trench that up.

KASS: No, no, no, no, no. I--it's--it's--you know, uh, it--ah, it's something I think about all the time. You know, I--I, uh, uh, my--my mother, uh--my father s--ha--had multiple myeloma for many years. And--and multiple myeloma is generally manageable. Um, but he relied on my mother to do everything. And my mother had a sudden stroke and--and passed away very, very quickly. And once she went, he really just couldn't really function anymore. So--so we actually just sold the--I--I had been down to Florida--tha--they lived in Florida. It's the old Seinfeld thing. They're from Connecticut, but it's the law in Connecticut, so they're--now they're in Florida. It's that old Seinfeld joke. But, uh, I couldn't (clears throat)--I had been down there, I don't--seven times, eight times in the past (laughs) five months, I think.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

KASS: And my brother and I keep saying, if we never see another golf course community again, (laughs) we will be very, very happy. It's been--it's been, uh, a--a rough--rough go. But they were, uh, you know, uh, I--like I told my 00:06:00kids, I said, how tough this has been on us. Uh, you know, my kids lost all four of their grandparents, but--but what I do tell them, and it's very true. They had, you know, fifteen or nineteen, depending on which one, years of--of very strong grandparent influence in their lives. They were wonderful people, and, uh--and--while they'll be missed, they're--uh, you know, they're--they're--they continue to--to live on in us, as is o--often the case. And--and so--so, um, uh, yeah, I mean, my--my father was an orthodontist in Connecticut, and my mother was an educator, schoolteacher. Taught, actually was the supervisor, of LD programs, learning disabled programs for the city in Connecticut that I grew up in. So, uh, wonderful people. And, uh--and my wife is from here in Louisville, so, um, uh, and they share--her parents--uh, she's actually not Jewish. She's, uh--uh, from, you know, kind of, like, a blueblood Louisville family. So it was an interesting wedding here. And (laughs) Rabbi--Rabbi--uh--uh, Diamond at the temple was--was, uh--was the only one that would marry us. So--(laughs) so he married us. Uh, we got married at the Speed 00:07:00Museum, actually, in one of the galleries. It was nice. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, nice. And what were your parents' names? And when did your family come to the US?

KASS: Well, my parents were both born here. My--my father was Gerard Cass. Roddy was his nickname. And, uh, he was born in 1930, um, in, uh, the Bronx. And, uh, my mother, uh, Renee Kass--it was spelled "Renee," but it was p--it was always pronounced "ree-nee." Um, she was born in Waterbury, actually, in 1932. And my father and his family moved to Connecticut from New York when he was pretty young. And they kind of grew up together. And, um, they were quite poor. Uh, at the time, my grandfather owned a liquor store, interestingly enough.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

KASS: And, um, uh, so they, you know, kind of struggled. Um, my father--I went to, uh, high school at a prep school in Connecticut called Taft.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

KASS: Um, and my dad, interestingly enough, when he was 14, won a half 00:08:00scholarship to go to Taft, which was $750 at the time. And they couldn't afford the $375 to send him to Taft. At the time, it was just--kind of speaks to how poor they were at the time. And that always kind of informed them. Like a lot of people from their generation, they were always very conscious of money and keeping things in order. And so, uh, but, uh, uh, you know, they were just wonderful people, so--

FERNHEIMER: And, uh, so--so you said you were born here. And were they the first generation, the grandparents, to come?

KASS: They were first generation. Yeah, their parents--well, actually my, uh, father's father was born in Lithuania, I believe. My--my father's mother was born in Ohio, and nobody in our family can figure out to this day why she was born in Ohio. (laughs) Nobody can figure that out--one out. Um, and then on my mother's side, both of her parents were also from the old country. My--my grand--my maternal grandfather, actually, it was a fascinating story. He was 00:09:00born in 1900, he was conscript--conscript--conscripted into the Red Army--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

KASS: --and, uh, walked away from the Red Army in 1917, and walked from the Ukraine, walked from the Ukraine to Amsterdam, during the winter.

FERNHEIMER: Oof!

KASS: And I tell these stories about stealing, you know, frozen turnips from people's backyard gardens, and stowed away on a boat from Amsterdam to Montreal, and met his brother who was in Detroit, who came across into Canada, and brought him into the United States. So yeah, just kind of one of these fascinating old--you know, old country stories. I could never get him to talk about it very much, he didn't speak English particularly well. But, um--but, uh, he--he was really the only one of my grandparents that I knew. Um, my, uh--two of my grandparents died well before I was born, and my maternal--my paternal grandmother died when I was about five. So he was the only one that I really knew. But he was a very interesting old fellow, so--

FERNHEIMER: Oh. And do you have siblings?

KASS: I do. I have a brother, um, who, uh, lives in the Washington, DC area. 00:10:00He's--he's an attorney, um, and actually specializes in--in Israeli, um, businesses, in--in mergers and acquisitions, uh, with Israeli companies. So, uh, he was just recently with Nixon Peabody. He's moved to a smaller firm now, so, um, yeah, and he's there with his--uh, he's got a family of five there, and, uh, his--he's got two boys that are already, uh, done with college, and one daughter that he's looking--taking to look at colleges, right now, so--

FERNHEIMER: Oh. And is he older or younger?

KASS: He's two years older than I am. Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Mm. And h--how would you describe your parents, or your family's relationship to Judaism, and the way that you did or didn't practice as you were growing up?

KASS: Um, I mean, while we were not--I would--I would s--characterize this as not necessarily particularly religious-slash-observant. I mean, like a lot of Conservative Jews, we went on High Holidays, we'd go on the occasional Sabbath, 00:11:00uh, Shabbat here and there. But Judaism absolutely permeated every fabric, every fiber of our being. I mean, you know, it was more of a cultural lifestyle thing than a--than a religious thing with us. I mean, all my parents' friends were Jewish, uh, and, uh, you know, it just--uh, uh, you know, I went to Hebrew School, um, so I had an entire circle of Jewish friends growing up. And do--I mean, it was a--my parents were very, very conscious and cognizant of making sure that Judaism was important in our lives, no doubt about it.

FERNHEIMER: And how would you describe your own Jewish identity? Sorry if that didn't come out very clear.

KASS: Um, I--w--well, um, you know, I'm certainly proud. I'm, um--you know, it's interesting, I guess we go through these, uh, kind of individual, uh, cycles and whatnot. But, um, I've been--um, maybe it has something to do with 00:12:00the--my age, maybe it has something to do with the fact that I've lost my parents, but I certainly have been kind of f--feeling myself, uh, drawn back to Judaism more, perhaps than I have ever have in the past f--five years or so. Um, so, uh, you know, I--I--my wife is not Jewish, but, uh, I told her, and told my parents, that I was going to raise my--my two daughters Jewish, and I've done that. And, um--and so that's satisfying, and, um, my older daughter in particular has just gone to Israel for the fourth time. I've only been once, (laughs) she's been four times. Um, so, um, i--it--you know, it--it--it definitely is, uh--is an important kind of compass in my life these days. And--and again, I think as my--my parents--i--it was interesting losing my parents and kind of--you know, I had an appreciation for kind of the Jewish process of grieving and--and--and healing, you know? The--the Jewish law says 00:13:00that--that, you know, during shiva, you're supposed to--you know, you're supposed to not engage in social activities. You're supposed to not do a lot of things. But when it's over, you're supposed to do those things. And there's something important about that, I--uh, that, you know, there's something wise about that, that you lose track of a little bit when you're in the middle of it. So I found it particularly reassuring.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Yeah. I've always found the Jewish laws around mourning to be pretty helpful, and--and--

KASS: --yeah, sensible--

FERNHEIMER: --sensible. Um, you've told us a little bit about how you got to Kentucky, and also a little bit about how you met your wife. But I wonder if you might talk a little bit more about that, and, um--and also about your involvement in the Jewish communities, uh, both as growing up in Connecticut, but also here in Louisville, personally and professionally. You've sort of touched a little bit on that in your response.

KASS: Um, sure. Um, well, uh, in vo--in terms of involvement in the community, 00:14:00um, you know, when I was in Connecticut, um, I--I really left Connecticut when I went away to college. Um, so, uh, I was certainly involved in the Jewish community then. I w--I would say it was mostly at the urging of my parents, more than, um--uh, it was more of a--uh, perhaps a push strategy than a pull strategy, as we say in the marketing business. But, um--but, uh, I mean, since then, and--and certainly here in Louisville, um, I mean, I've--b--become quite involved. I mean, I've been on the board of Jewish family and career services here for, that's--I think I'm going seventh year, sixth year, um, which is just a wonderful organization. There--there--there are JFCS-like organizations all over the country that you're probably familiar with. And interestingly enough, I found myself kind of turning to the JFCS organization in Florida after with my parents, and u--using them for some resources. So, uh, j--a wonderful organization. And serves not only the Jewish community, but the--the greater 00:15:00community. So, um, and, uh, I--I certainly have been involved in--in the temple. Um, one of the ways that I certainly have been involved in the temple is kind of through my--my role as--here at Heaven Hill, and as somebody that's in--in the--the bourbon business, I had done a lot of different kind of events there, tastings for various youth organizations. Not, like, young, young--(laughs)--youth organizations. You know, young temple member organizations, legal drinking age members. Um, and, you know, we did, uh, a whole series of events there a few years ago as part of their--their main fundraising drive, which was kind of all around, uh, bourbon. So, um, that's kind of been interesting. And certainly, I can tell you in the past, really, four or five years, there has, with increasing frequency, been, um, interest from all over the country, actually. Some international interest, as well, in terms of Judaism and bourbon, Judaism in the distilled spirits business. And, 00:16:00uh, so--so quite topical for--for us to be talking.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So you--you talked a little bit about how things are changing in the--in the bourbon industry in the last few years. Can you tell us a little bit about how things have changed in the Louisville Jewish community just in the time that you've been here?

KASS: Um, sure. Uh, you know, i--i--i--it's--it's a remarkably vibrant community. I mean, um, I always think that the--the s--one of the best gauges of kind of how the community is doing is--is kind of the involvement of young people. And--and--and it's quite remarkable. There's, you know, a l--a lot of--of involvement from children all the way up at--at--at the temple and in the Jewish community in general in Louisville. Um, I mean, it's interesting, you know, there's kind of an old joke about, (laughs) you know, b--in the Northeast, kind of where my parents are from, you know, I said, you know, I'll go to Louisville, there's J--like, there are Jewish people in Louisville? I went out with a girl from Birmingham, Alabama. Like, a Jewish girl. There are Jews in 00:17:00Birmingham Ala--you know, they--it's just, it's kind of half a joke, but they really, you know, have a hard time understanding that. But--but really, I mean, here in Louisville, the--the--the Jewish community is, like it is in so many other places, I suppose, disproportionately influential, I would argue, in terms of--of their numbers. But, uh, um, actually, at this point, when I was considering coming here, of course, Jerry Abramson was--was mayor for life, as they joked. And, uh, so I was able to quickly tell my parents that they mayor's Jewish. So, (laughs) um, and actually at the time when I was going out with this girl from Alabama, the mayor of Birmingham was Jewish, interestingly enough. But so, you know, I--I didn't know a whole lot about the Jewish community in Louisville, uh, really before I moved here. Uh, I--I didn't know a whole lot about it, but, um, i--it's--it's a wonderful, wonderful Jewish community. Um, very, very, uh, tight knit, very, very responsible, socially responsible, socially aware. Um, just a--a--a great community.

FERNHEIMER: And so how has your time in Kentucky influenced the way that you 00:18:00think about Judaism? I'm sorry if I seem to be hammering on a horse, where we're going to move from Judaism to bourbon in just a second, but--

KASS: --no, no, of course--

FERNHEIMER: --there is a method to our madness. (laughs)

KASS: Sure, sure. No, I--I--I--I mean, uh, you know, I guess, similar to spending, I spent a summer in Birmingham. I mean, it's good--I--I--I told my parents, certainly, this, but, you know, somebody that kind of comes from the Northeast, you know, the New York area, it's very tunnel vision there. You kind of think the entire Jewish world is kind of like around there, in the Northeast, and certainly, there are--you know, New York is a very, very Jewish influenced city. Um, but to come to--so either spend a summer in Birmingham, or to spend time in--in Louisville is a good way to see that, um, the influence and importance of Judaism exp--extends well beyond, kind of, what a lot of people think is the traditional areas. And--uh, and so that's--that's, uh, comforting, 00:19:00and, uh, exciting to see. Um, the Jewish community here in Louisville, uh, there's a lot of great business leaders, community leaders, and--um, and they are all very, very involved in the Jewish community. And it's--uh, it's--it's very, very healthy. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So you mentioned that the rabbi at the time was the only rabbi willing to m--marry you and your wife. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the--more of the particulars about how you met, and what her name is, and what your children's names are, (laughs) and how old they are.

KASS: Sure. Those, those minor details. Um, yeah, my wife who's--uh, whose name is Ellen. Um, Ellen Horner was her--her maiden name. Um, uh, I--I--(laughs) it's kind of a funny story. I, um--she was--I mentioned, I come down to Derbies with a--a college buddy of mine. Uh, she was best friends with his sister. And, um, I--I used to come down to Derby. And, um, I would--I 00:20:00would definitely have a good time down here. I was, uh--um, didn't have a whole lot of time to do anything else other than party and have a good time. And, uh, you know, the idea of kind of, like, meeting a girl down here never really occurred to me, because I was down here for--for Derby. And, uh--and one year, I guess I let my guard down a little bit, (laughs) and, uh, I--uh, I met my wife, kind of in a romantic way, and--and it was actually a--a Derby fling that turned into a marriage. So, uh--so it--it was kind of an interesting story. She, uh--uh, and we have two children. Uh, my oldest, uh, Abby is nineteen now, going to be twenty in January. Um, and she's a sophomore at--at, uh, Boston University, BU. And my younger daughter, Lily, uh, is fifteen, about to turn sixteen, gulp. And, uh, she is a sophomore at Manual, and DuPont Manual, in the visual arts magnet. She's a very talented artist, so, um, yeah, I--uh, uh, two 00:21:00wonderful, wonderful girls.

FERNHEIMER: And how would you say your daughters' relationship to Judaism is different to or similar from--si--different from or similar to yours and your involvement in the Jewish community?

KASS: Sure. I--I mean, I think, uh, I mentioned earlier, my older daughter in particular has been to Israel a number of times. I mean, it's interesting. They--the--I think they're every bit as cognizant, proud, involved in Judaism as I am. But interestingly enough, I had parents, had very much kind of pushed me, pushed me. And--and--and everything kind of had--you know, they very much controlled my environment. I would say it's almost been the opposite with us. We really, um--you know, my wife is not Jewish. Uh, you know, lots of our friends are not Jewish. We don't--you know, it's a very different situation than certainly my parents growing up. But, my kids have almost ended up in the same place. And there's something nice about that. I think there's something about, you know, the--the--the religion and the culture and the way of life 00:22:00being appealing, no matter kind of which route you come at it from. Uh, and so we've kind of ended up in the same place, my kids and myself, and, uh, through very different routes.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm. Thanks. JT, do you want to switch?

WALDMAN: Sure. Well, you already answered my first question, which was kind of how you came to be involved in the bourbon industry in Heaven Hill. So I'll kind of, to--to save us from repeating that. So when--when watching the, um, Kentucky Bourbon Tales interview with Max Shapira, he--he talked a lot about the advantages of the distribution network--

KASS: --um-hm--

FERNHEIMER: --and how that really helped grow the business. Um, can you--can you kind of unpack that a little bit more for us, and kind of what that means?

KASS: Sure. Uh, I think what--you know, Max talks about this a lot, and--and, you know, I think a lot of businesses talk about being in the business of relationships, all that kind of cliché. But truly, I really do think that the distilled spirits business, particularly a number of years ago before there was 00:23:00a lot of consolidation, particularly the wholesale tier, really was a business of relationships. And Max is the son of one of the five brothers that founded the company right after prohibition; with no intention, by the way, of founding a distilled spirits company. They did it purely as an investment. But, the--the amazing thing about the business at that time, and really w--what remained in that, and unique about this bus- well, maybe perhaps not unique about this business, but certainly, uh, a part of this business for a long time, were that many of the business were family owned, particularly at the wholesale level. Um, distilled--the distilled spirits business itself, just to take a step back, is--is just--is a bit of a dinosaur in terms of the way it--it--it works, because we, Heaven Hill, are a supplier, producer, distiller. Whatever, we make the stuff. We, by law, cannot sell to anybody other than the wholesale 00:24:00tier. We cannot sell to a retailer, we--Lord knows we can't sell to a consumer. Uh, we can only sell to the wholesale tier, which obviously bothers the Costcos and Walmarts of the world a great deal, and they're trying to get--get that changed, in a way. But--but that's the way it is. That's the way the laws are. And because our customers really are wholesalers, those are the ones we sell to. Those are the ones that--that, particularly back in the day, that the relationships really were built with. And if you look around, more 20, 25, 30 years ago than now, because there has been so much merger and consolidation, particularly the wholesale tier. But if you look back at our customers, you literally can see each one of them being a family company at some point. And, more often than not, a Jewish family company. And you can literally--Max would be able to do this better than I, but could think of going around the company from Quality Wine and Spirits in Minnesota, the Gold and Barker family. In 00:25:00Florida, the Chaplin family, Southern Wine and Spirits, which has become the company that swallowed everybody else up. The Glazer family that formed Glazer's Distributing. Um, i--it just goes on and on and on. I mean, literally, the Fratens in Rhode Island. Uh, there's just most of the big distilled spirits, distributors, wholesalers, that we did business with, were A, family owned, B, Jewish family owned, and C, we did multigenerational business with them. In other words, Max's father probably started doing business with his peer at the family at the time, and then Max similarly was then doing business perhaps with the son, and--and on and on. So, um, that, I think, is what he was speaking to. That this relat--that this business really was built on relationships between families. Now, as I mention, that has--a lot of that 00:26:00has changed, really, for all intents and purposes, at the wholesale or--or distributor level, there's been an enormous amount of consolidation. Southern Wine and Spirits, Glazer's, Republic, Young's Market. There's three or four that have taken over everybody else. Here in Kentucky, for instance, we used to be Crown Distributing, uh, owned by the Levitch family that we've done business with since Max's father started doing business with, um--with the Levitches' father, uh, in 1940. Um, they are now part of Southern Wine--they're now Southern Wine and Spirits of Kentucky. So, um, but that--that was what Max was talking about, that our customers generally are family owned companies, many of them Jewish family owned companies, and these relationships, most of which did not involve anything other than a handshake. Very few contracts, anything like that, were built on this kind of, uh, uh, trust and relationship.

WALDMAN: And yet, what was interesting in the hour-long interview with--with, uh, Max, if you do a keyword search, the word "Jewish" doesn't appear 00:27:00once--(laughs)--and yet there's lots of mention of these distribution networks, and family, and education, and any--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

WALDMAN: --and anyone who's kind of tuned in to try and hear that subtext can kind of read into it. But w--why do you think that there was no mention o--of that explicitly?

KASS: Well, uh, you know, I mean, uh, because, you know, I mean, I--I think--I think there's a couple reasons. One, I think it partly has to do with the personality. Max is somebody that--that, uh, business is business with Max. And--and, um, the reason that we have the relationships with many of these people is--is obviously the family relationship types of things. The reason we continue to have relationships with them is because we do business together, we do profitable business together, we work well together. And at a certain level, that has nothing to do with being Jewish. That has simply to do with business. So, um--so while that certainly is the underpinnings of a lot of the r--the 00:28:00formations and the, uh--the kind of maintenance of those relationships, really, to a certain extent, as far as Max is concerned, that's almost neither here nor there, because it's all about are we doing good business by you, are you doing good business by us? So I suspect that that has a lot to do with it. Um, and it's--it's purely a personality thing. I mean, you know, uh, we have a big wholesaler convention every year. And we would meet with our wholesalers, and many of them would be the families, family members that I'm talking about from sons or, uh, multiple generational relationships. And some would come in and start throwing Yiddish phrases around, and boychik and this and that. And some wouldn't, and it's--it's purely, I think, a function of kind of how your personality is as to how much you dial that type of thing up. Uh, Max tends not to dial it up a whole lot. I mean, he's, uh--you know, uh, it's just his nature. Uh, and, uh--and--and I think partly a reflection of the fact that 00:29:00the--you know, he sees the company has, um, the--the portfolio, the profitability of the company, all those types of things, very much in line with everybody else's major suppliers who are not Jewish-owned. So that probably has something to do with it.

WALDMAN: He also mentioned a lot about how he would go to parties, and people would ask what he does for a living, and they'd be kind of captured by the art and mystery of bourbon?

KASS: Yeah.

WALDMAN: Could--could you un--what--what does that mean to you? What is the art and mystery of--of bourbon production?

KASS: Well, what Max said--and--and this kind of speaks to it. And--and he--he says this all the time, and it's very, very, true, is that basically, if you are sitting in a cocktail party, and you're--you're talking to somebody, and they ask you what you do, and you say, "I'm a doctor, I'm a lawyer, I'm in insurance." "Oh, that's interesting," then they take a sip of their drink and you tell them, "I--I make bourbon." You know, "Really? Tell me more about that." You know, I mean, it' s--it's just--it's one of those things that just tends to kind of, e--lead to more questions. And interest is just--it's just a 00:30:00little bit different and a little bit kind of interesting. And--and so, you know, I think that is a lot, kind of, what--uh, of what he meant there. There's a certain pride, I think, um, also, in--in being in the bourbon industry. Particularly nowadays. There maybe was not so much (laughs) probably 10, uh, 20 years ago. But, um, you know, it's interesting, they--and we'll probably talk a bit more about this, but certainly, we are--are having a great go at it right now. And, um, uh, uh, uh, Senator Stivers, uh, who is a--a prominent state senator here, um, really has talked about kind of what a signature industry is in the state of Kentucky. And it's--and it's an industry that is both growing, economically growing, and is one that you can talk about, and feel good talking about. And if you think about a lot of the quote-unquote signature industries in here in Kentucky--coal, tobacco, horseracing--they don't meet those criteria, 00:31:00both of them. Bourbon does, and--and so, um, eh, there is a certain pride, I think, when you can--particularly for people that are not from here, when you can talk about the fact that you are in Kentucky and you are making bourbon, and making it well. Um, so there's a--there's a certain kind of real, um, pride in--in doing that, and--and--and--and I think from a--you know, re--reciprocal standpoint, interest in--in people hearing about that as well, so--

WALDMAN: And I as--I watched an interview, uh, of you recently, when you were talking about how, um, you were in one of the warehouses, and how the bourbon is different from one row.

KASS: Um-hm.

WALDMAN: Each barrel is kind of its ow, like, snowflake, in essence, of--

KASS: --right, the magic, right, right--

WALDMAN: --of the magic. So is that--is that your experience when you go to places and tell people about what you do for a living? And--and you talk more about the science behind the process? Is that part of the magic?

KASS: Eh, I mean, a little bit, for sure. I mean, you know, this--this business is--is kind of--I mean, eh, when I was in adv--a--in the advertising 00:32:00business, I worked on kind of, you know, lots of different products, credit cards, and yogurt, and everything in the world. And, you know, this business is really--it's just layered, it's just got so much great stuff in it. I mean, it's got so much great history. I--I mean, it's got, um, these crazy characters, these amazing figures, these--um, it's got these places. Um, it's got a sense of place itself, because there's distilleries themselves, uh, in locations with great names. And, um, i--it's--it's got a whole lingo and language unto itself that's just interesting.

WALDMAN: What are some of your favorite names?

KASS: Uh, people's names, or l--lingo, like--

WALDMAN: Both. Both.

FERNHEIMER: Both.

KASS: Um, let's see. Uh, well, the lingo, I can tell you, there's--th--there's just great words. Uh, uh, like, um, the--there's just a language unto itself 00:33:00with bourbon, f--and some of it doesn't make any sense at all, and you don't really question it, you just go on. Um, like, here's a great one. Um, single barrel bourbons nowadays have become very, very popular. And, you know, before single barrel bourbons were around, basically, those were the barrels--the best barrels in the warehouses, that he warehousemen or the master distillers kind of knew, that's the really good barrel to sit up on the third or fourth rick in the southwest corner of brick house z. So generally, if somebody wanted to take a little bit of whiskey out of the barrel, they would go to one of those better barrels. And you could tell where the good barrels were in the warehouse, because the barrels below the good barrels, the warehousemen would rub up against to--to--on--to take some whiskey out of the barrel above it. So they would call those "shiners."--(laughs)--You look for a shiner, because their overalls or whatever they were wearing, would eventually shine the side of the 00:34:00barrel, because they kept rubbing up against it. So they said, you look for the shiners, and the one above the shiner would be the good barrel. I--you know, I just--I just think stuff like that's just very cool, you know? Um, if bourbon, by--by definition, obviously, it's got alcohol, high alcohol in it. As long as you keep your--your bourbon sealed, um, uh, closed, um, the alcohol will not escape, and it will stay forever, um, because alcohol will prevent anything bad from going in there. If you don't put the top on tight, or if the cork leaks a little bit, and the alcohol starts to be able to leave, the alcohol will eventually leave, and you essentially just have this grain liquid, and then bad things can grow in it. And when that starts to happen, if you've ever seen a bottle of bourbon that--that's happened to, it gets this stuff in it. And for some reason, the old timers refer to that as "mother." I have no idea where that comes from, but that's what they called it. It looked like this mass of 00:35:00st--it's just weird phrases like that that you kind of come across in the business that are just interesting. You know, and--and the business itself is so, um, you know, p--uh, we talk about this little--a little while, but part of the reason that I think bourbon is just so popular right now is, you know, everybody's into kind of artisanal, slow food, locavore, you know, how is--organic, how is everything made? Um, and bourbon just checks all of those boxes, just by definition, because it has to by--by government definition. And--and so, um, you know, i--it just plays so well in that space right now, and that's such a--kind of a popular space to be in right now, that it's just nice that we've always been there, and the world has kind of come around to us. And so you start to layer on that history, and sense of place, and the characters, and the language, and you start to get a pretty--a pretty just interesting solt--uh, social, cultural phenomenon, and a very cool one, I would argue, as 00:36:00well. That's--that's kind of--is really popular right now.

WALDMAN: Yeah. One of the more interesting terms I think related to the industry is, um, about rectifiers. Could--could you define what a rectifier is, and is there a correlation between rectifiers and--and Jewish purveyors? Or are they separate?

KASS: Um, well, y--you know, th--this has to do with, kind of, back in the day, uh, because, um, the distilled spirits world, I would say, before--well, before prohibition, but really before the turn of the century, was a pretty wild and wooly place. There was not a lot of regulation, there was not a lot of control. So, um, uh, i--in order to make your whiskey taste good, um, it may not be well made, but you wanted to--to be able to sell it, so you had to find ways, oftentimes, to make less than I--less than great whiskey palatable. So that was the idea of rectification, was to rectify whiskey which was not good. And 00:37:00you've--you read that they would--rectifiers, and this was back in the day, and a lot of it was unscrupulous, illegal, dangerous, everything from prune juice to tobacco juice, to iodine, whatever they might add to the whiskey to try and get it to taste better. That was the--the theory behind rectifying whiskey. That all completely went away, really with the Pure Food and Drug Act. And then the Taft Act of 1912, which kind of defined what we--between those two, and the Bottled-In-Bond Act. Between those, it kind of eliminated the possibility of people doing nefarious things to the supply chain, which is basically what rectification was. So, um, at our Evan Williams Bourbon Experience, uh--uh, visitors attraction here in Downtown Louisville, we, um, have a--uh, uh, a recreation of what Whiskey Row here in Louisville looked like in--in the late, uh, nineteenth century. And there were a lot of rectifiers around then, so we 00:38:00have several rectifier offices. And we talk about--uh, about rectification, and kind of what it was, so--

WALDMAN: And do you--was there a higher proportion of Jewish peddlers at that point?

KASS: To that point, well, you know, really, again, um, prior to prohibition, when the distilled spirits distribution world was different, you had a situation where, uh, uh a co--uh, a company or family that was producing whiskey, people would come to the distillery and essentially fill, uh, either buy bar--full barrels, or fill large jugs of some sort, and take those back to their store or retail establishment. And then customers would come in, then with their own jugs or other types of--of vessels, and fill those. Um, so that whole three-tier system that we talked about earlier really didn't exist back then. It was very, kind of, uh, wild and wooly in terms of what--what happened. Between that and rectification, you really didn't quite know what you were 00:39:00getting. But, um, y--you--you had a lot of--of--because there were kind of many tiers of the business back then, um, there were Jews that were involved, certainly at the retail level. And we know that there were a lot of--of Jewish families here in Louisville that owned retail establishments that sold basically their own. It was, like, private label whiskey. They would take their own, buy a barrel from a distiller, and put their old--old cornflower, or whatever it might be, label on it. And so there were many families that were doing that here in Louisville. Um, and there certainly were a number of families that were in--Jewish families that were involved in the rectifying business as well. Um, there were, at that point, a number of Jewish families that were actually on the supply side, on the producer side as well. Um, so well known, aside from, uh, people like the Bernheims, who were, you know, obviously very well known. There were a number of other, uh, prominent Jewish families that actually, uh, were whiskey makers. Um, so you had a lot of this involvement in rectification, in 00:40:00retailing, in--in wholesaling and distribution, and in the supply side, um, from Jewish families, really prior to prohibition. Um, once pro--prohibition and the depression and the war, and that kind of tripleheader hit, it really locked--knocked a lot of people in general that were in the distilled--distilled spirits business out of the business entirely. But obviously, a lot of the Jewish people that were as well. And many of them never came back in. Um, a--as was the case in--a lot, in--in other industries, it was about that time, really, World War II, post-World War II, when a lot of the Jewish families really said, "Time to become lawyers and doctors now." So a lot of them turned more to the professions than to the--the kind of wholesaler mercantile business at that point. Prior to that, though, there were many, many, many Jewish families that were involved, uh, in the retail--retail side.

FERNHEIMER: Can I jump in for one second? So you mentioned our conversation 00:41:00prior to this conversation, where you talked a little bit about the three-tier system. But just for the purposes of the interview, if you could re--rehash some of that, and--and about how that--that changed after the war into this, what we now know as the three-tier system.

KASS: Sure. Um, yeah, I mean, (clears throat) distilled spirits is, um, really a bit of a kind of a--an anachronism or a dinosaur baby in terms of consumer package goods. We're the only, um, consumer package goods that--that has this, um, non-bendable, completely inflexible three-tier system that we operate under. As a supplier, a distilled spirits manufacturer, we are required by law to only sell to wholesalers, distributors. They're the same thing. Um, i--in the case of a control state, like Ohio, or Virginia, North Carolina, where the state controls the sale and distribution of distilled spirits, we sell directly to the state. But we have to sell to that wholesale, that middle tier. That middle 00:42:00tier then can sell to retailers and to what we call on premise bars and restaurants. Um, the bars and restaurants and retailers then sell to the consumers. So I've always said, we call it a three-tier system , but really it's a four-tier system, you kind of got to include the consumers, the end user in it, but that's the way it works. I mean, as a supplier, we sell it to wholesalers, wholesalers have to sell them to retailers, and--and bars and restaurants. Bars and restaurants are the ones that then sell to consumers. So there's--there are these firewalls between them that, um, for somewhat anachronistic reasons now, um, but still, somewhat useful, many would argue, um, have remained. And so, um, that, uh--the way this distilled spirit system is set up, um, i--i--first of all, it's very different from the way it was before prohibition and--and the Depression and the war. So once this was set up, 00:43:00it--it really did change the game and change the players that were in it. And as I mentioned, many of them that were in it prior to it got out of it. But it also kind of set us on this course to, um--to be fairly rigid. I--it's--it--you know, uh, the world has changed so much in 50, 60 years. And really the way distilled spirits are sold has not changed a whole lot. It's been modernized, certain aspects of it, but really, there's not been a whole lot of changes to the system. Um, uh, the state of Washington, which used to be a control state, basically privatized a few years ago. That's about the biggest thing that's happened. Um, it's remained fairly s--stable and status quo since then. Um, that makes a lot of us happy, that makes others unhappy. Um, and--and so we'll kind of see where that all nets out, but as of right now, that--that definitely makes us a little bit different than everybody else, and kind of keeps 00:44:00those--those--the business very siloed in that way. Does that answer your question? (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Yeah.

WALDMAN: Um, so, on a--on a personal note, what--what--what piqued our interest in the--in the topic of the role of Jews in the bourbon industry was both of us have--took visits to the, um--the Bourbon Heritage Center in Bardstown.

KASS: Um-hm.

WALDMAN: And it was with a scrutinizing eye--because we both come from academic, uh, realms--where we noticed the Beams coming together to form Maganda Beams.

KASS: Right.

WALDMAN: Um, so can you--can you talk a little bit about how that was clearly a conscious decision by the designers, and I assume, Harry and Max?

KASS: Um-hm.

WALDMAN: Can you talk more about how other kind of aspects of Judaism influenced the creation of a heritage center? And then also, even the way with Evan Williams, you've created a kind of an experiential moment to help tell the story of bourbon. And as a people, we're known of--you know, we're--we're storytellers. Every holiday, you know, we--that's that joke.

KASS: Um-hm.

WALDMAN: You tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat.

KASS: Right, right.

WALDMAN: So h--how does--how does that play into these two kind of really important aspects of kind of--of--of preserving the history of bourbon as a whole within this, uh, region, but--but also kind of the Jewish angle into that?

KASS: Um, you know, in terms of kind of how Judaism manifests itself in - -in our company and--and in, say, in the Bourbon Heritage Center, you were very observant to--to see the Star of David there in the dot. Um, there's not a lot of very overt, um--I mean, i--i--i--there's just not a lot of kind of Jewishness about--necessarily about our brands, our companies. As a matter of fact, interestingly enough--and this kind of goes to another topic, the Is--the whole idea of Isaac Bernheim and--and Jews making whiskey but never being able to name the whiskey after themselves. The sold story about Isaac Bernheim, of course, is he had this great brand of whiskey, but he dare not name it Bernheim. He took the name of his attorney in Lexington, Mr. Harper, gave it his first two 00:46:00initials, Isaac Wolfe. IW Harper became his brand. Um, but so the--you know, the influence of Judaism is, uh, I would say subtle. Um, I mean, uh, so if--if you look at the Bourbon Heritage Center, you're not going to see a whole lot of, you know, here's a display on how the Shapiras, you know, coexisted with Judaism and--and you just don't see that. Um, because as I said before, I really--it--it just--it--it hasn't been a business b--probably because, again, what we talked about earlier, the fact that there--the--a lot of our customers were Jewish. It was never really an issue, it was just how business was done. It was just business as usual. So--but that being said, I mean, I think, uh--uh, clearly, it, you know, it--it informs--I mean, everything that I--particularly the family that owns the company, the Shapiras, have done. Um, the idea of--of kind of capturing stories and capturing history from--from Evan 00:47:00Williams, that--that your--your point is--is--is spot on there. Um, first of all, the challenge for us with the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience with that visitor center. I mean, we had the other visitor center in Bardstown, and like the other--our--our competitor's visitor center, it's at a big campus, big distillery. And while, here's warehouses, and here's bottling houses, and here's finished goods warehouses. And it's all this grandeur, and huge spaces, and lots of buildings. Well, we decided to build something at 6th and Main, in a little shotgun building, obviously, that whole model goes out the window. So we--we said, okay, how are we going to deliver the most powerful visitor experience here? It's going to be about Evan Williams, it's going to be about, uh, the--the--the man, the nameship of our flagship brand, but he was also this very important figure in the history of Louisville. So, um, we--we kind of did this immersive, uh, experience there where we said we--we--you know, we don't 00:48:00have a huge campus. We can't drive people around, we've got a shotgun building. The good thing about a shotgun building is this linear--you go straight back, you can tell a story, you come back the other way, you can tell more of a story. So that's kind of what we did. And, um, so yea, we, uh--it's very much about, kind of, initially, particularly about Evan Williams the man and--and, uh - -and, uh--uh, kind of, the role that he played as a figure in Louisville, as a--as a harbormaster and member of the Town Council. Um, and, uh, conveniently, as a--as a distiller of whiskey, we were able to kind of work both of those into the story. So--so, you know, these--uh, the--you know, the story of Evan Williams is one that we felt had not been really told from a historical, kind of, cultural s--uh, standpoint here. Um, you know, we always joked that we had this, um, uh, historical marker there at was kind of on 4th Street in front of the Vault House for many, many years, recognizing Evan Williams as the first, you know, commercial distiller, and is kind of where his still was. It actually 00:49:00wasn't quite near there at all. So we--(laughs)--we had it moved after we opened the Evan Williams center to pretty much where it was at 6th and--and Main there. And, uh, but my--my point there is we've always had them. My--the marker was there, long before we decided to build the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience. The--the--the--you know, the story was there. He was there, he put his--he built his still there. He was this important guy. So a lot of our brands--Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna, Fitzgerald, Dant, I mean, I could go on and on. Their--the--the story of those is really about his--key bourbon figures, kind of, forefathers in--in the bourbon business. So, um, that also means that when we're talking the stories of our brands, we're telling the stories of these old guys. So not a lot of Jewishness that necessarily works its way. (laughs) When we're talking about Elijah Craig, the Baptist minister from Scott County. It's not something that seems to--seems to--seems to bubble up much in the story. Clearly, when we talk about the company, it's a little 00:50:00bit of a different animal, but that's, uh--

WALDMAN: And you mentioned--so you've mentioned a lot of interesting things. You talk about forefathers, and you talked about really unique personalities. Where do the women fit into this equation? You know, the cliché is behind every strong man there's a stronger woman.

KASS: Right, right, right. A--and again, this will come up, but hopefully you have the chance to--to speak to--to Anne Shapira, who was the, uh--the widow of one of the five founding brothers. But she--she--she ta--I've heard her talk at length about this. Um, you know, (laughs) the--the women--you know, and it's interesting. You know, you got to understand this was certainly a--a different time back then. So the--the kind of influence that they could wield, and how they wielded that influence, was perhaps different than how it would be wielded or--or talked about now. But she always talks about how, you know, the--the--the brothers would get together, they--they just were so myopic and so tunnel vision on--on their business that, I mean, they--like, she would talk 00:51:00about they'd--they'd go--they'd do their sales meeting, and they'd literally, very fancy sales meeting, they--they'd get out a loaf of bread, they'd get out, like, a piece of salami. (laughs) They'd get out a jar of pickles, and they'd get out some newspaper. And they'd put the newspaper down on the table, and they'd start eating food. And--and she would come in and just see what they were doing. And she'd--oh my God! You know, and it--oh my God, you know? And it--and it just--it was more that--that--the--the--the women trying to keep the men normal, on track. Keeping their lives together, because they were so focused, probably to the exclusion of so many other things on just trying to keep their business going. Um, they just--a--and again, Max will certainly be able to speak to this better than I, but my--my--my very real sense is that, you know, the role they played was very much a--keeping their--the normalcy in their husbands' lives and their families' lives while these guys pursued this 00:52:00business. That was not a--first of all, not a--necessarily a traditional Jewish business, being a producer or distiller of spirits. A--and secondly, a business that was just, by itself, very--very kind of all consuming. So, um--so that's the sense that I get when you--you kind of hear about the--you know, the kind of, um, honest broker, common sense role that they played in steering them away from this world that they just were in. And--and saying, have you thought about all these things?

WALDMAN: You--you never heard of any other, um, more active roles of what--women in the industry? Whether in bottling or marketing? I know there's the myth of Maker's Mark wife coming up with the red wax. Are there any other--

KASS: There--so you're talking about in general, not just Jewish? Right?

WALDMAN: Either or. Either or.

KASS: Well, y--I mean, if you go back to Scotland, actually, um, interestingly enough, women, um, traditionally, and--and--and I give a lot of credence to this. Women are supposedly better nosers and tasters than men. They supposedly 00:53:00have better olfactory senses. So there were s--a number of women, particularly the scotch business that were kind of--Bessie Williamson is a very, very famous one. But she, you know, who just had wonderful s--sense of taste and--and smell, and were very, very important in terms of kind of, um, uh, organoleptic is the word that they like to use. You know, testing, and--and--and making sure that things a--are g--are as they should be, and determining when things are--are of proper age. So there's always kind of been that role. I mean, it's very interesting. It has been a--clearly, the whiskey--the distilled spirits business itself. If the stories that I've heard of what it was like 40 years ago, to say it was a chauvinistic business would be, uh, a gross understatement. It was very much a man's business for many, many years. Um, that clearly has changed a lot in so many different ways and on so many different levels. And all those different tiers that I talked about on women are--are absolutely, um, 00:54:00uh, have absolutely, uh, you know, equaled or surpassed men in many ways. But for many, many years, this was not exactly an--an equal opportunity business. Kate, uh, uh, Latts, who's Max's daughter, s--you know, when she's been with the company probably 15, 16 years now. She kind of noticed pretty quickly that when she would go to a lot of the kind of executive level meetings, there certainly were not a lot of women in those meetings. Certainly more now, more and more now than there ever have been, and--and certainly she can tell you about that. But, um, so, you know, i--it's--the business is changing a lot. Um, and, uh, you know, nowadays, the role that women play, uh, runs the gamut, I mean, from management roles to, um--to more of the lab, technical sensory roles. I mean, so it's--it's all across the board. Um, you know, a number of years where that was not the case, where women had influence, was--was areas where they--they--they could have influence, and--and certainly one of those was in 00:55:00terms of--of tasting.

WALDMAN: Are you also familiar with Maria the Hebrea, or Maria the Jewess, who's considered to be the inventor of the--

FERNHEIMER: --the still--

WALDMAN: --the still?

KASS: I haven't heard this one, no. Where--where--where is--where is--

WALDMAN: She's from Alexandra, Egyptian, ba--we're talking, like, thousands of years.

KASS: Okay. Yeah, yeah. It's because distillation actually was--it does go back either to the Moors or to the Egyptians.

WALDMAN: She's apparently credited as being the creator of the--of the still.

KASS: Well, uh, you know, typically, distillation--I mean, distillation was used to make perfume. It was used to make medicines--

WALDMAN: --exactly--

KASS: --it was used to make so many different things that kind of the idea of making alcohol with it was almost a--an afterthought, really. But, uh, yeah, I--you know, I mean, um, uh, (laughs) you know, I--Kate, at this point, really, if you want to talk about somebody. Again, we're--we're in a different time right now, but--but Kate certainly has been here at time when, you know, she's the one that runs basically all the marketing programs here. And, uh--and she, 00:56:00uh, certainly has i--is--I--I think it's safe to say one of the more high positioned women in this--in the--in the business right now. And, um--and--and she's, uh--uh, in and of hers--uh, in and of itself, has seen a--a pretty big seat change, and kind of the numbers of women and--and the--and the influence of women in just the 15 or 16 years that she's been here.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. So i--it's interesting that you--you--you shift the conversation to Kate and--and--and come back to the importance of family. One of the things that struck me--(laughs) perhaps this is the moment I'm in--in--in my own personal life, uh, with a new baby. And yesterday, we were stuck in the archives, uh, had a baby on my back, because the babysitter of course canceled at the last minute.--(laughs)--But Max beings--uh, he talks about this moment, how deeply engrained he was in the family business that obviously, he was too young to recall this memory. It must ha--have been a story told to him, but how he was a baby swaddled, uh, with his parents at the bottling plant? And--but he 00:57:00distinctly talks about both of his parents being there. And so it wasn't just--a--and--and you sort of allude to this in the way that, you know, you talk about nineteenth century women's ways, and the ways that women influence men. But both his parents were at the plant, and so it clearly was a kind of family, um--it was important to both parents in the family. And we look forward to speaking with Anne, uh, very soon. But I wonder if there were other women in the family who--who kind of appear in those sideways ways that women often do in these types of stories, at least in the past. Uh, at the plant, with the baby. Uh, walking in and making sure that they're eating dinner, or that, you know--

KASS: --sure, right, right, right--

FERNHEIMER: --they have something other than the pickles.

KASS: Well, you know, I mean, uh, family business being what it is, the family never stops thinking about the business. I mean, and I certainly know that it was that--that was the case with the Shapiras. There were five of them, five 00:58:00brothers with--you know, all of them except one married with families. So, I mean, there was a whole network, there that--that, if nothing else, relied (laughs) on the distillery for everything. Um, the--their--their Sunday night dinners were, for instance, always kind of, uh, um, you know, the subject of--interestingly enough, they always had a Sunday night dinner that--that was the subject of lots of legend. And the Beam family, as well, are distillers. They also did a Sunday night dinner that I always heard lots of stories about. But they would always get together. Um, you know, the--the stories that I would hear would--I think were probably pretty typical of--of these types of families and situations. They never not--they never didn't talk about business. I mean, it--it was never--there was never a sense of, "Okay, we're getting together for a holiday, for this, that, whatever. You know, we don't talk about business, it was just--it was just ever bit of their being was so wrapped up in it that that was just what they did all the time. Um, I suspect--and again, because of 00:59:00that--Max, you know, he tell--tells the stories about, you know, when he was real young about how he got to open the gates up for the trucks--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

KASS: --and things like that, and what a cool thing that was for a little kid to do. And--and, you know, I'm sure the reason he did that was his dad had to be able to play it, and his mother maybe went with her father to--for whatever reason, and Max had to go as well. And so again, that was one of those situations where, you know, I--I say this more often about our distillers, the Beams and anything, but it's like, you know, the--the--the whiskey doesn't take a day off. So the distiller can't take a day off. Really, the--the guy that owns the company can't take a day off either. I mean, Max, to this day, he goes in--he's gone in every Saturday, at least--and he goes on some Sundays, but he's going in every Saturday, I mean, for 40 years. Every Saturday, he goes in. As a matter of fact, he loves going in Saturdays because it's quiet, and he can get all this work done, and I get a million messages and emails and things from him on Saturdays because that's when he goes and gets stuff done. So it's a 01:00:00family-owned company, they live, eat, and breathe it. I think that--that went everywhere, the--the wives knew that, knew that the husbands were doing that. Not only provided support so that they could do that, but--but were there themselves, um--

FERNHEIMER: --hmm--

KASS: --to--to--to--to be at the businesses, so--

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And to continue on the family business line, you mentioned, when you were talking about all of the ways that Jewish families were involved in the business, uh, before prohibition, and since we're at the beginning of the research path right now, I wonder if you might be able to share some of the specifics of the names of the Jewish families that were involved before prohibition. And I wonder if you might do a wonderful rendition of that lovely song you recalled to us--

KASS: --oh no, no, no--

FERNHEIMER: --before. The--the--the video was rolling, because it was fabulous.--(laughs)--Uh, and it's also a great way to--to help t--um, trigger the memory about those names.

KASS: (laughs) Well, I mean, I'm going to have to--I'm going to have to go to my cheat sheet here. But, um, yeah, (laughs) uh, I got to keep my mouth shut 01:01:00next time.--(laughs)--The, uh--no, the--the--the--the--(laughs) I--uh, I--I, you know, kind of have done this present, you know, when we--again, to our--the earlier point about how topical and interested people have become in the past five, ten years, and kind of the role of--of, uh, distilled spirits and bourbon in Judaism, um, uh, I've ended up kind of talking to people about, you know, the different families that were involved in the different types of businesses. And--and it--it does end up with this list of--you know, this laundry list of Jewish names. And, uh--and the reference that I was making so that--so that people don't think I'm completely crazy is--is you're--you're going to need to--to--to--to reference this, and--and Google it, but it's the famous s--Jewish comedian-singer named, uh, Allan Sherman, uh, who--who, uh--who did, uh, "Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah, here I am in Camp Granada." That's what most people know him for. But on that same album--which is, I believe, called My Son, the Folk 01:02:00Singer, um, there is a song called "Shake Hands with your Uncle Max," I believe it's called. Um, and it's basically about him being a salesman, and he goes away, and he comes back, and his mother has all his friends and family there, and it's this whole laundry list of Stein with an e-i, Styn with a y, and Tidelman, Tidelbaum, Tidel--you know, all the--all the names. So, but i--if you look at the--the--the--the--retailers, on Main and Market Street, you have Rosenthals, Frankels, Blocks, Levys, Oppenheimers, Rosenbaums, Blooms, Flexners, Glogowers, Kleins, Loventhals, Kahns, Jacobs. Um, all families that, uh, had retail businesses, um, as I mentioned, selling whiskey, that they would bring in in a--probably a barrel from--from a--uh, a, uh--a supplier. So, um, wholesalers, uh, backrow Blot, Goldberg. Rectifiers, you had Rosenbaum, 01:03:00Dreyfus, Weiss, Simon, Greenbaum, Martin Hirsch, Louis Levy, IK Isaacs. So, um, again, uh, a lot of, kind of, um, fairly traditional Jewish names, but, uh, a lot of families here that--uh, that kind of trace the l--their business back to, at some point or another, distilled spirits.

FERNHEIMER: And you had mentioned there were even some additional families in the supply side before prohibition. Do you ha--do you remember who those--

KASS: Yeah, yeah. Um, th--they're actually, um, uh, the Barkhouse Family. Um, uh, Lo--and actually, the Barkhouse--Louis Barkhouse was the president of the Temple f--in the 1880s. Uh, the Sachs Family, the Schwartz Family. I--I could tell you all their brands, but these were all families--um, the Grabfelder family as well--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

KASS: --um, and Sam--not only was Samuel Grabfelder a--another president of the temple in the 1890s, but Max's wife Ellen is related to the Grabfelders--

FERNHEIMER: --hmm--

KASS: --as I found out after we started to do all this, they said, "Oh, you know, Ellen's actually a Gra--uh, a Grabfelder. So, um, so those are a lot of the families that--that were involved in making whiskey, primarily prior to prohibition. Um, post Prohibition, um, a lot of them, uh--uh, of course, there were the Bernheims as well, but, um, the Shapiras, actually, in terms of the ones that really kind of lasted post Prohibition. Then you had, you know, um, Jewish families that--that obviously ran Seagram's company, with the Bronfman family. Um, the Schenley Company was run--w--was run by the Rosenstiel Family. Um, the, uh, Publicker, uh, Company was another very large. That was the--the Publicker family. All Jewish families.

FERNHEIMER: And so speaking of Jewish families, and--who's still in the business and the--who's still around that, uh, if you have suggestions, obviously, Kate and Anne are very high (laughs) in our list of where to go next. 01:05:00But, uh, outside the Shapira family and outside the Bernheim family, that we know about, are there other people that you would recommend that we should definitely not miss talking to?

KASS: Sure.

FERNHEIMER: There's a good double negative for you. (laughs)

KASS: (laughs) Um, you--you--y--uh, you should definitely talk to the Levitch Family. Um, you know, in terms of--of, uh, the wholesalers. Um, they've been there and involved in the business, uh, for multiple generations. Um, so they are--are--are certainly a--uh, an important family for you to talk to. Um, other than that, uh a--and I--and I--did we mention--I mentioned Tom Block as well--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

KASS: --who's, uh--uh, the Bernheim's family's, uh--

FERNHEIMER: --Bernheim--

KASS: --uh, yeah, I think those are--those are probably the--the ones I think that--that, f--in terms of the continuity to today, probably, uh, are--are the ones you should--you should talk to.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

WALDMAN: Okay. So we're going to end on a--on a slightly different note. So yesterday, we--um, we went to the temple, and we met with Sydney-

KASS: --um-hm--

WALDMAN: --and y--she sh--she gave us access to, um, some of the archival, uh, 01:06:00information and--and images. And--and we came across this image, um, of an advertisement from Bernheim. And I'm hoping you can put on your marketing/advertising hat, and--and kind of tell us what you think this image, who it's trying to sell to, and what this image is about.

KASS: Hmm. I've never seen this before. Did--was this part of the--I guess I probably have seen it.

FERNHEIMER: It was in the same boxes. Unlike Max, who was swaddled, I had my son in one of those baby carriers on my back, and he was reaching in to look at these archival materials. (laughs) WALDMAN: And of--of all of the images that I found, I--I found this one to be very striking. Um--

KASS: Boy, it is really hard to say what this image could have been. I mean, it looks like a wedding, is that what it is?

FERNHEIMER: That was our best guess.

WALDMAN: But it's--it's, uh, clearly an advertisement for Prosperity Whiskey.

KASS: Prosperity Whiskey.

WALDMAN: But with--with such a pronounced African American, you know--

KASS: --um-hm--

WALDMAN: --uh, image there. Clearly, Bernheim was marketing to a specific 01:07:00demographic. Or what do--what do you think?

KASS: Oh, it's interesting. It says, "Complements of Bernheim Distributors." That is interesting. Uh, I--the--y--I mean, I--I almost wonder if this was a quote-unquote "advertisement," per se. I mean--

FERNHEIMER: What else would--would you imagine it might have been?

KASS: I--I mean, I don't know--I--I don't know if it--it as a--uh, it--it seems strange that they would put "Complements of Bernheim" on that. That just seems a strange wording, for some reason. Uh, I--you know, I can't begin to fathom a guess as to what this is. I mean, it--it seems fairly contrived. I mean, it seems fairly posed and set up, whatever it is. Um, I--I--it's hard for me to say what this could be. Uh, I mean, I guess it's somebody's vision of 01:08:00prosperity. (laughs) That's the best guess I can say. Um, oh, that's interesting. I mean, you don't see a lot of--of kind of cross-cultural advertising like that. You don't see a lot of--oh. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I--I mean, because you mentioned, kind of, the old boys' club. And so it's--it's intriguing to try and understand, you know, the role of African Americans, and Native Americans, and women, and kind of people who clearly were involved in this industry, but their story isn't necessarily told so often.

KASS: No, and particularly not in--in anything that is promotional of any sort like that. Um, yeah, I--I--you know, I--I'm really hard pressed, and--and, you know, I--that would be one that I would be interested to hear what a Mike Veitch, uh, historian, or even a Tom Block, who's a relative of the Bernheims, whether--

FERNHEIMER: --hmm--

KASS: --what his take on that might be. He might say, "Hmm, I--I'll need to get back to you on that one." But--but that's interesting, I hadn't seen--I--don't recall seeing that, actually, so, thank you. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: We--we--well, do you have more ques--

WALDMAN: That's all I have.

FERNHEIMER: I--we're--just want to close by thanking you so much for spending an afternoon talking with us, and helping us get on the record some of the tremendous institutional knowledge that you have. Um, we began the conversation before the conversation talking about the importance of--of compilation, of assembling material. And, um, something that you said during this interview really s--stood out to me, which his that it was so much a part of the business, that you didn't have to talk about it, that it--it was just understood. And yet, i--if you're an outsider coming into this industry, or if you're someone coming through the Bourbon Heritage Museum and you don't look up in the tasting room, you might never know that.

KASS: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: And so that was part of the--our motivation for meeting with you today, to get some of this onto the public record.

KASS: Sure, sure.

FERNHEIMER: And we're just very grateful that you were willing to meet with us, and spend this much time talking to us. And--and we're delighted to--to leave with a puzzle that hopefully, we'll all get to begin to solve together!

KASS: Yeah. I mean, you know, I--I--I feel like again, you know, there are so many other people you can talk to that are more primary-type source that--

FERNHEIMER: And we look forward to doing that, too!

KASS: Yeah. You know, Max will really be able to--to tell you more about, obviously, (laughs) more about the insights in terms of--of his family and how they chose to dial up or not dial up their religion within the business context. Uh, so, um, yeah, there--you know, the--the--the good thing is that, you know, the--there are still some really great people for you to talk to with great stories to be told, that need to be recorded. Without a doubt.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

KASS: So you all are doing a tremendous service.

FERNHEIMER: Oh. Thank you so much.

KASS: Okay.

FERNHEIMER: All right. Is there anything else that--I always like to ask this question before I officially-officially close, which is, is there anything that we didn't ask you about that you feel like we should know, or that we missed that you want to add to the record before we close it for today?

KASS: I--I--I don't think so. N--no, I mean, you know, really, this was more a 01:11:00kind of look back. You know, I mean, there is a lot to be talked about in terms of, kind of, the business to--I mean, because it's--you know, it's--uh, again, this goes back to what I talked about earlier. You know, it's--it's never been--I've been doing this a while, and it's in this just very incredible phase right now where, you know, we're really near--w--we're--we're just going up, so at some point, clearly, we're going to reach this plateau. But, um, i--i--you know, the--the--bourbon itself just has so much, kind of, cultural cachet right now, and just, from my perspective, I, you know, having tried for so long to get anybody to (laughs) understand what it is, and how it relates to the other whiskies. It--it just is--has been such a--a--kind of an amazing run here for the past five or six years. So I think there's a lot to--to be talked about in terms of, kind of, like, what the--what--what--what's going to happen from now 01:12:00on? You know, what--where the business will go now? Um, you know, what the--the international demand. Uh, that--was that--that whole--right now, we're h--we're struggling to keep our inventories in line, to just supply the domestic market.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

KASS: Um, a few years ago, the--two years ago, actually--the--the--the state always releases the export figures. And--and the--uh, actually, bourbon exports take down by, like, half a percent every day. It's like, (gasps) the bubble's burst. Oh my God, it's the end. No, we just don't have enough--

FERNHEIMER: --supp--

KASS: --juice to send to--to a lot of the international markets. So there's all this building that's going on right now. We're all just spending millions and millions of dollars--you know, we spent $25 million in the past four years on visitors and production facilities. And we have more planned. And so, um, i--it just--the s--uh, it's at this amazing point right now, and we keep on getting asked, you know, i--will it go b--will it continue, will it continue, will it continue? So that's--that whole idea is in--you know, that whole area 01:13:00is an interesting--it's a different subject, a subject we haven't touched a lot on.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

KASS: But, you know, again, there's--there's certainly plenty to look back on, so--

WALDMAN: Well, hopefully, our work can contribute to that part.

FERNHEIMER: What--

KASS: I hope so too, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Last follow-up on that. So we talked a lot about the Jewish past involvement in bourbon. And so as--as you bring up this question about the future, I wonder if you might speculate a little bit about the role of that Jewish past in helping to project forward to a--

WALDMAN: More kosher bourbons.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, the--the move to get kashrut ci--certification for bourbon, even though bourbon is a whiskey, so--

KASS: Uh, well, yeah, we're a--believe me, just because it is, as you know--

FERNHEIMER: --oh, I know--

KASS: --it runs through this line, the line's got to be kosher. So that's really where tha--all that comes in. But--but u--oh, I mean, i--wha--you know, you've never seen more visibility in terms of, kind of--proud visibility in terms of--of Jewish whiskey drinkers. Um, have you all heard about the Jewish 01:14:00whiskey company? Have you all heard about Jewbilee?

FERNHEIMER: Yes.

KASS: Okay. Um--

FERNHEIMER: But for the record, can you explain a little bit what it is?

KASS: Yeah, so I'll actually tell you the origin of Jewbilee. Um, there--there's been this Jewish whiskey company around for a while. And what they've done is just a bunch of--of, uh, religious, young, Jewish guys, and they did scotch, mostly. And it--this was a--there--there--what are traditionally called merchant bottlers, where this is a--a--a well-established practice in the scotch business, where they'll buy barrels from a distillery, and they will bottle it under their own name, basically, and they'll say this is a barrel from Glenmorangie, or wherever it may be. Um, so that's what the Jewish whiskey started as, just with their own little angle. They were Jewish, and they called themselves the Jewish Whiskey Company, and that was their thing. Um, about five years ago, the biggest whiskey show of the year--um, it's called Whiskey Fest. And they have Whiskey Fests--actually, there are now three--four markets, New York, Chicago, San Francis--no, three markets, New York, Chicago, and San 01:15:00Francisco. And they've been around for, like, twenty-one, twenty-two years. They've been around way longer than any other whiskey show has. And the one in New York, just as a--in and of itself, is a good example of kind of the--you know, how--how interested, um, uh, you know, Jews are in whiskey, because there are li--I mean, there's probably two thousand people that come to it, but they're--you just literally see hundreds and hundreds of--of--there's Hasidim there, lots of people with yarmulkes on. There actually is a kosher food section there. So I said, well, that says it all. There's actually a kosher food section at Whiskey Fest. Um, so there's always been this really strong, kind of consumer interest, that's been there. Um, but what happened was Whiskey Fest was always on. New York was traditionally on, like, a Tuesday night. Which, as far as we're concerned, was always a really good night to have it, because, uh, the bar owners could come. If you do it on a weekend, bar owners 01:16:00can't come, because they're too busy trying to--you know, it's a big night for them. So it was always a great night to do it. Well, the guy that runs it, who publishes a--a major whiskey magazine, decided, uh, four years ago or something, to do it over a weekend, and to make it a bigger event, and to separate, have one day of just seminars, and a show, and to really blow it out. And of course, (laughs) um, what became pretty obvious when he announced his intention to do that was, we said, well, what about all these Jewish people that are walking around here? None of them are going to be able to come to the Whiskey Fest. So sure enough, he said, "Eh, I know that, but I'm going to do this anyway." So what happened was the folks behind the Jewish Whiskey Company basically did a protest show against John. Um, and they called it Whiskey Jewbilee.--(laughs)--Uh, and they did it--the first one was at, like, the--was at, like, one of the Jewish centers in, like, I don't know, SoHo or something. 01:17:00It was very small, but it was really crowded, and really--um, and since then, it's kind of--no, since then, John has gone back to not doing over the weekend. But still, Jewbilee has actually managed to kind of keep quite a bit of--of power behind it, and--and has been a--a pretty--a pretty good event. So, um, so, you know, you've got--you know, we talked earlier about, you know, there's this awareness now, there's articles about, you know, kind of these various synagogues that, instead of, you know, having, you know, bad wine for owning Shabbat, they're serving, you know, 1942 Macallans or whatever. This is, uh, kind of a phenomenon right now. So--so there definitely is, um, a strong interest in contingent. I know, and personally know, a number of people who are either writers or, say, kind of in the business in some way shape or form, who are Jewish and who are very conscious of kind of writing about this, keeping this alive. So i--it's very much a strong undercurrent now that you've really 01:18:00only felt in the past four or five years. But--but definitely is there, and definitely is growing. And, you know, we--we talk--you know, it's interesting, you know, we--you know, i--I wouldn't say we downplayed it, but we never talked a whole lot about being a Jewish company before, and--and it's not like we lead with that so much either. But--but, you know, I mean, that's a--when you go to New York Whiskey Fest, that's a pretty nice thing to be. So, um, uh, it puts you in a good position. So--

FERNHEIMER: Mm. Well, thanks for putting us in a good position. Um--

KASS: Sure. I--yeah.

FERNHEIMER: I ho--

KASS: I hope I hav e

FERNHEIMER: And, uh, I think we'll actually be able to get you in a good position for your next meeting as well, so--

KASS: But I hope I, uh, will be able to--to talk to her, so.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Thank you so much.

KASS: Well, so, I mean, do you want to, um--let me know what you want to do in terms of--of speaking to people. Uh, like I said, I've spoken to--to Tom, uh, and, you know, Max knows.

FERNHEIMER: We would--any kind of--

WALDMAN: ------Any entrée you're--you're willing and able to provide would be 01:19:00fabulous. Yeah.

KASS: Well, yeah. I mean, I'm happy to--you know, and, you know, this is the type of thing that people would be happy, I'm sure, to talk to you about. Uh, you know, again, to our earlier point, there's--there's a lot of pride in this. So--um, so yeah, um, Tom, I can--I've already told him that I've--you know, I've spoken to you about him. And I think I can probably just--I'll just email him, copy you on it, and say--

FERNHEIMER: --okay, great, that'd be wonderful--

KASS: --I'll just introduce you to him, and email, and you can go ahead and get in contact with him. Because he--he would be really, a--a--a good person to--to talk to.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And I imagine Anne or Kate or Max would be a little bit harder to nail down with their schedules? I'm--

KASS: Uh, well, they will be. Um, uh, Anne will be easier than the other two, um, but, um, she's still remarkably busy.

FERNHEIMER: So how--how do we get a hold of Anne? I imagine she's not necessarily available.

KASS: I would say the way to do it would be through Harry's widow, through Judy.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

KASS: Yeah. So, um, that would be the best way to do that. So, um--

WALDMAN: We want to talk to Judy anyway, so--(laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Y--yeah.

KASS: Yeah, yeah. Judy would be a good person to talk to as well. Um, uh, so yeah, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Maybe after we close this, then we can talk contact information so it's not--(laughs)

KASS: Yeah.

END OF AUDIO FILE