Interview with Jack Miller, August 31, 2015

FERNHEIMER: For official purposes, uh, today is August 31st, 2015. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I am associate professor of writing, rhetoric, digital studies and director of Jewish studies. And it's my great honor and pleasure to be here today with Jack Miller. Um, and from this point forward, I will ask you some questions, which I know we've already talked about, either on the car ride or on other occasions. But--

MILLER: --yeah, and--

FERNHEIMER: --please forgive me for asking them again.

MILLER: No problem.

FERNHEIMER: What was your name at birth?

MILLER: Jack--uh, you want middle name?

FERNHEIMER: Sure.

MILLER: Jack Lee Miller.

FERNHEIMER: And when and where were you born?

MILLER: I was born here in Lexington, uh, November 29, 1935.

FERNHEIMER: And what were your parents' names and occupations?

MILLER: Uh, my mother was Beatrice [Fromberg?] Miller. And, uh, she just was a housewife. And--uh, not just, but she was a housewife. (laughs) And, uh, my 00:01:00father is, uh--his--he went by the name I period J period Miller. But it was actually [Isadore?] Jacob, Junior. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: And he was?

MILLER: He was a lawyer, sorry.

FERNHEIMER: That's okay. And did your parents or grandparents' names change when they came to the U.S.?

MILLER: Well, I know my grandfather's--uh, my--well, my mother's family did not change their name.

FERNHEIMER: The Frombergs?

MILLER: The Fromberg--yeah, it's, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And do you know where they came from and when?

MILLER: Uh, my grandfather--my--well, on my mother's side, uh, my grandfather's great grandfather, uh, was--uh, came from Germany. Uh, but his name's--was Fromberg at the time. And, to be honest with you, I don't know when, uh, my 00:02:00father's family came to this country.

FERNHEIMER: And they were Millers?

MILLER: They were Millers, I'm sure. But they go back at least three generations I know of. Miller didn't, uh--in Cincinnati.

FERNHEIMER: Do you--so, three generations of Millers in Cincinnati?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And so that was your--your father, I.J., his father--

MILLER: Father was, uh, the same thing. Isadore Jacob Miller.

FERNHEIMER: And one before that, as well?

MILLER: I think his name was, uh, Isaac, I think, the one beforehand was, uh--and I'm--I--not really exactly positive.

FERNHEIMER: And were they all lawyers?

MILLER: No, none of 'em were lawyers except ------(??) my father. Uh, my grandfather--uh, my father's father came to Lexington, uh, from Cincinnati right 00:03:00after the Civil War, uh, in the late 1870s, I guess it was. And, uh, had a store, uh, which was then--it was called Miller Brothers, and it was on the corner of Main Street and Broadway, here. Here in Lexington.

FERNHEIMER: Right where the Starbucks is now?

MILLER: Right where Starbucks is today, yes.

FERNHEIMER: And what kind of goods did they sell?

MILLER: It was sort of a general kind of store, I think.

FERNHEIMER: And they established--so, that was since the 1870s? He started it right away when he moved here?

MILLER: Yeah, uh, I think he--he--he--I think he came here to work for somebody--uh, I cannot tell you who he worked for. But, uh, pretty much after they first came here is just when he and--and--and he brought his brother down here. His brother--name was Benjamin. And, uh, uh, he passed away, apparently 00:04:00quite young, uh, and never was married. Um, I'm told. (laughs) And I've never seen any proof of it, but I'm told that after he passed away, uh, some other relatives, uh, donated money to, uh, the St. Joseph Hospital in his--for a room in his name.

FERNHEIMER: Huh.

MILLER: Uh--

FERNHEIMER: St. Joseph's here in Lexington?

MILLER: Here in Lexington, yeah. It was then probably on Second Street.

FERNHEIMER: But you haven't found the room.

MILLER: No, it--uh, I--I threaten periodically to--to go by the hospital and see if--you know, whatever happened to it or--if--if anything. I--you know, I don't know. I've never--I never have. I've--I've heard that for--you know, for a long time. But, uh, uh, I've never really done anything personally to--

FERNHEIMER: To follow up?

MILLER: To follow up on it.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

MILLER: And I don't know if any of my relatives have done that either, to be truthful.

FERNHEIMER: So, would have been in Benjamin Miller's name?

MILLER: Uh, yes.

FERNHEIMER: If it existed? And do you--you--do you know why he died or how he died?

MILLER: No, I don't.

FERNHEIMER: Oh.

MILLER: No, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Do you know when?

MILLER: No.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. And the store was started roughly in 1870. How long did it last?

MILLER: You know, there--I'm not--I'm--you know, I'm--I'm terrible--I'm really not--not sure. But it was for--apparently, like, good length of time. Uh, you know, I hadn't mentioned to you, but the--and you had talked--someplace in there, you were--mentioned the--talking about maybe discrimination. Uh, there's a story, uh, in the Lexington newspaper at the time--

FERNHEIMER: The Herald Leader?

MILLER: Yeah. Well, what--or whatever it was called at the time, I can't remember. Um, where--(laughs)--uh, at Christmas--but that year, it happened to fall on a Sunday. And, uh, the people in the store went out and--to the needy 00:06:00children and gave them all numbers, or had them pick numbers. And, uh, so--for presents on Christmas day. And, uh, apparently, uh, the--number of drunks, uh, picketed and--the store and caused all kinds of--of, uh, uh, noise about them being open on Sunday, even though the--the purpose of it was to give away, uh, gifts to the underprivileged children for Christmas.

FERNHEIMER: Huh.

MILLER: Uh, and the--the article, what--in the paper was sort of a tongue-in-cheek type of--of an article. It's a--I guess we would say it today, it was sort of sarcastic. (laughs) You know? And--in relation to, uh--I mean, it was--it was supportive. But, you know, it came across--you know, it started 00:07:00out somewhere--of the--you know, how they were--you know, the evil Jews were, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Were open on Sunday?

MILLER: Open on Sundays. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Huh. Well, do you have any idea what year that was?

MILLER: No, just--I--

FERNHEIMER: Do you have the article?

MILLER: Yeah, I've got it someplace at home.

FERNHEIMER: Wonderful. We might follow up with you if that's possible, to--

MILLER: Yeah, oh, sure, no problem.

FERNHEIMER: Or, if we can't find it through the search engine--

MILLER: Oh, I'm sure I can find it someplace.

FERNHEIMER: Do you have siblings?

MILLER: I had a--one brother. Well, actually, I had two brothers. One died before I was born. Uh, and, uh, then I had a--a younger brother, uh, Bob. Robert. And he passed away, also.

FERNHEIMER: How old was--was--how much younger than you was he?

MILLER: He was two and a half years younger than I am.

FERNHEIMER: And when did he pass? I'm sorry.

MILLER: Seventy-seven, something like that, I think.

FERNHEIMER: Oh.

MILLER: He had cancer.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And--

MILLER: No, it wasn't '77. Maybe '97.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. I was going to say, you were pretty young then.

MILLER: Yeah, no, it was--

FERNHEIMER: He would've been really young.

MILLER: No, no, but--

FERNHEIMER: --um--

MILLER: --but I'm not--I'm not--I'm terrible about remembering years. I'm just--

FERNHEIMER: Oh, that's okay. Um, so, you grew up here, in town, hmm?

MILLER: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood and what it was like to grow up in Lexington?

MILLER: Uh--

FERNHEIMER: And where'd you go to school?

MILLER: Well, I went to, uh, what then was University School, which was part of the university. It's where the Taylor Education Building is.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, yeah.

MILLER: Uh, I went to kindergarten there. Uh, was an all-day kindergarten. We took a nap, and they had a--a, uh--like, a courtyard, and it had a log cabin in 00:09:00it. So, it was--it was a--and I--and we took a nap. They had cots for us to take naps on. And then, uh, for elementary school, which is--in those days, first through sixth grade, uh, I went to, uh, [Kendrick?] School, which is--which became [Julia Ewing?], who had been the principal when--when, uh, I was there, and probably had been the only principal from the time that the school started until--'til then. I don't know, but--uh, you know, but she'd been there for many years. And then, after I got out of that, I went to, uh, back to U. High, University High School, from seventh grade, and graduated from there.

FERNHEIMER: And what--what was your experiences in elementary and high school like?

MILLER: Just, you know, I think--yeah, like any other normal person. Um, we, uh--one of my friends' father, uh, started a basketball team for us at--at 00:10:00[Kenwick?], uh, when we were in the sixth grade. And, uh, uh, so, that--you know, we--we had a group of us that played basketball, and probably--ten or twelve of us. I don't know how many people were on it, but, uh, it was fun. And, uh, then, when I went to U. High, it was, you know, everybody was just--it was a small school. We had thirty-six people in our graduating class.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

MILLER: Uh, and I think, for the most part, probably all of us went to school straight through ------(??) came to town and--and started there if somebody dropped out, because they--they had to limit the number of people that they would take in, so--and in those days, it was the only, uh, school that had 00:11:00student teachers.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay.

MILLER: Uh, they didn't have it in the--in the public school system.

FERNHEIMER: And where--where was U.--was U. High right on--

MILLER: It was--it--

FERNHEIMER: --campus?

MILLER: Yes. Well, it was in the Taylor Education Building.

FERNHEIMER: Also in the Taylor--

MILLER: --yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --Education Building.

MILLER: Um, the--the one side was for the elementary school, and the--as you're facing the building, the left side was for junior--junior high and high school.

FERNHEIMER: And did you live in the Kendrick neighborhood when you were growing up? Um--

MILLER: Kendrick neighborhood, yes. Lived on Holiday Road.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: Which backs up to what is now the Idle Hour--in those days, it was the Ashland Country Club.

FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh.

MILLER: And, uh, [Curley R. Bradley?] owned it. He was a horse--horse man. And, uh, everybody could belong, you know? It didn't--there was no discrimination about membership.

FERNHEIMER: When it was Ashland.

MILLER: When it was Ashland. Then Curley Bradley died, uh, they sold it to the people who started the--who made it the Idle Hour Country Club, which is what it still is now. But, uh, in--in those days, uh, it was, uh, there--no Jews were 00:12:00allowed. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: To Idle Hour, or--

MILLER: To Idle Hour, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Was your--were your family members when it was still Ashland?

MILLER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, our house backed up to the country club. I mean, we used to say that my dog was the only Jewish person that ever went over there. (laughter) 'Cause--'cause she would go over and grab--the putting green was right behind our house, and she'd go over and grab a golf ball and come running home with it. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Uh--(laughs)--well, can you tell me a little bit about your parents' relationship to Judaism?

MILLER: Well, they, uh--

FERNHEIMER: When you were growing up?

MILLER: Were they what?

FERNHEIMER: Your parents' relationship to Judaism while you were growing up?

MILLER: Well, uh, my grandfather--

FERNHEIMER: Which one?

MILLER: --was one of the founders of the--of the temple.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: And, uh, he never--he never was an officer, but he was one of the 00:13:00founders of it. Uh, my father, uh, became president of the temple at--you know, as time went on. And, uh, my mother was--(laughs)--she--she, uh, was a member of sisterhood. And, uh, she was in charge of selling the sisterhood calendars forever. I mean, she did it until she--'til she couldn't do anything anymore. Uh, I mean, that's what she did for--you know, that was her job. And, uh, we were--(laughs)--I don't know how to phrase this, but we were not traditional in the standpoint of--of, uh, of, uh Jewish--Jewishness. Uh, we had a Christmas tree. Uh, and, uh--until--until my--my brother, who ultimately became president 00:14:00of the National Federation of Temple Youth--until he became--became active in that. Um, uh, we had a Christmas tree. And--and he insisted that they stop doing it, which they did. But, uh, growing up, we always had a Christmas tree, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And did you call it a Christmas tree or did you call it a Hanukah bush?

MILLER: No, we called it a Christmas tree, uh, uh, and I--and I know that you're aware of--of my relationship with Rabbi [Grafman?].

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

MILLER: Uh, but--

FERNHEIMER: I'm going to ask you a few questions about that later.

MILLER: Yeah, I know, and I just--uh, but I--it--this sort of falls into that, because he would not--he would not come to the house during that season.

FERNHEIMER: Because of the tree?

MILLER: Because of the Christmas tree. Uh, you know, they might talk on the telephone, but he would not come to the house, because he wouldn't--didn't want to--you know, didn't want to be there with it. So, uh, you know, that was never talked about. But that was, uh, you know, that was a fact.

FERNHEIMER: And did you--when you were a child, did you know that this was unusual? Or was this just normal?

MILLER: I think it was more normal than it was unusual. Um, you know, in those days, uh, there were pretty strictly two congregations that were separate and apart, and the people who belonged, for the most part, were separate and apart. There were a number of people who--however, who belonged to both congregations. Uh, but for the most part, socially, interaction, there was none. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: And this was between the temple and the synagogue?

MILLER: Yeah, and, uh, you know, and, uh--which, you know, to look back on it, it was a shame. But that was--I mean, they--you know, there was--there was a--at--at one point in time, there was discussion about the--the, uh, 00:16:00consolidation of the two institutions. And, uh, I think probably the--the worship on--or the ways of worship on the High Holidays was probably one of the, uh, drawbacks for--uh, the inability to even, you know, logically or--or, you know, uh, realistically, uh, consider it.

FERNHEIMER: Because they were so different?

MILLER: Yeah, 'cause they were so different. Um, but, um, as far as my upbringing, uh, you know, most of my friends were--were members--their parents were members of the--the temple. Um, uh, I did not know very many, if any, of the kids of my age that were at the synagogue. I don't--tell you the truth, I don't even know how many there were--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

MILLER: --except those whose parents belonged to both institutions. Uh, I know that you've talked to at least one or maybe more of the people who were around at the time. But, uh, uh, they were--you know, most of those people, I think, just--uh, belonged to both congregations. Um, but times have changed. (laughs) And--and--and I think for the better.

FERNHEIMER: In terms of those relationships?

MILLER: In terms of--of--of interaction and--and, you know, congeniality, and--and doing things together. Uh, I think that's amazing. I think it's wonderful.

FERNHEIMER: Why do you think there was such a divide then, while you were growing up?

MILLER: I think that the--most--main part of it probably was that the temple was what is--is known as classical Reform. And, um, we had a choir, we had an 00:18:00organ. Um, you know, you--you interviewed Harriet, and--but she--she sang in the choir.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

MILLER: And, uh, uh, very little Hebrew was read at the temple. Um, I'm sure there's some--you know, I--you know, I can't sit here and remember, but I think that--you know, some of the prayers were, of course, in Hebrew. But, uh, it was always followed by the English transliteration. Uh, uh, and--and we had--when I grew up, we had no bar or bat mitzvahs at the temple. Um--

FERNHEIMER: Were you confirmed? Did they do--

MILLER: I was--we were confirmed, uh, and in--in my later life, uh, after having gotten married, uh, uh, we--we--I was part of one of the first B'nai 00:19:00mitzvah groups--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

MILLER: --that had a bar mitzvah, uh, which I'm glad I did. Um--

FERNHEIMER: When did you do that?

MILLER: Uh, I can't remember. In--in--in, you know, in--in later life. (laughter) It was after I got married. So, you know, it was--it was probably--it was probably--

FERNHEIMER: In the '80s or something?

MILLER: Yeah, something like--I was probably around--fifties, and--you know, uh, there were--think three of us in our--that group. Two women and me. Uh, and, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And you did it at the temple?

MILLER: Huh?

FERNHEIMER: Did you do it at the temple, here?

MILLER: At the temple, yeah. Uh, Joe Miller, uh, who is deceased, uh, [Sammy, is his?]--Sammy--you know, she was Miller, then she was--well, her--her, uh--[so, is?]--Joe was her brother. And [Frida?]--I mean, Sam--uh, Frida--uh, 00:20:00Fanny and--and Sherman were his parents and, uh, uh, they--he had the bar mitzvah, uh, and--and again, I--I don't remember ------(??) but--

FERNHEIMER: That's okay. Uh, so, growing up, confirmation was the big thing.

MILLER: Confirmation was the big thing. And, uh, we did have post-confirmation, also.

FERNHEIMER: How--

MILLER: And there were--there were three of us in my confirmation class.

FERNHEIMER: You and who else?

MILLER: [Leslie Abberson?], who lives in Louisville, and [Jonas Wheel?], and I--I don't know where Jonas lives nowadays.

FERNHEIMER: And they're both men?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Leslie, I'm not always sure.

MILLER: And then the class before me was two years before, uh, our confirmation class. And, if I'm not mistaken, they had three, also. It was Earl Levy, [Alan Bloomfield, and Myra?] Michaels. I think that's all they had in that class. 00:21:00So, there weren't that--I mean, you know, there was--there were years in between that, uh, there was no confirmation, because they just--they--the population was not such that, uh, uh, you know, they filled in every year. I mean, sometimes they did, but it's unusual.

FERNHEIMER: Pretty small class.

MILLER: Yeah, small classes.

FERNHEIMER: Can you describe--

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --aside from the Christmas tree, uh--(laughter)--what Judaism was like in your family? What was the role of Jewish tradition in--

MILLER: Well--

FERNHEIMER: --in your childhood, or what--

MILLER: --so, we--

FERNHEIMER: --your parents taught you--

MILLER: --well--

FERNHEIMER: --little bit?

MILLER: No, they didn't talk much about it. Uh, we would go to--of course, went to high holiday services.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

MILLER: My father was an usher, all the time, so he didn't sit in for services very much, uh, except for--when--for, uh ------(??) he would come in for that. 00:22:00Uh, but for the most part, he was the usher, and they stayed outside, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Was that by choice on his part?

MILLER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh, they would sit out and they would sit around and--you know, the men, they'd sit around and they'd talk and they smoke and, you know.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Cigarettes or pipes?

MILLER: Cigarettes. Cigarettes. (laughs) But, um, you know, and that's--it--it--when I went to--and I went--you know, this is going back about--about--about--doing that services, um, uh, I would not--go for the high--during the day for the High Holidays. I would go to school, uh, and, uh, you know, I can't say that most of the kids did, but I--'cause I don't--I didn't ask and I don't know. But, uh, uh, my guess is they went to school, too. And 00:23:00we--(laughs)--uh, I was at U. High, and we would walk from--sometimes from--we'd walk downtown to catch the bus to go home. Uh, other times, the parents would pick us up at, uh--we'd walk downtown, and we would go down Limestone and, uh, we would pass, uh, Maxwell Street, which is where the synagogue was at the time. And, uh, we would always see the old gentlemen sitting at the counter in the, uh, drugstore, drinking coffee and Cokes during the holidays, too, so--(laughter)--you know, I--I--you know, [it, like?]--it was kind of tough for the--uh, these--I would think for the older gentlemen to sit during the whole services, and even--even for Yom Kippur, they would, uh, be over there sometime, too, so, uh--you know, and we would know who they were. I mean, you know, 00:24:00it's--it's not as if we didn't know who they were, but, uh--uh, so, it was--it was--it was fun. I mean, you know, this--the only--I only had one--one instance where I would say that there was a showing of bias, and that is that, uh, one--one fellah who I always thought was a--you know, a friend. You know, friendly, anyway, called me a dirty Jew.

FERNHEIMER: What was the context?

MILLER: I don't know, something over a softball game or something. And I got into a fight with him. And he never said it again. And, uh, you know--but that's the only time that I--I remember anyone ever overtly saying anything about, you know, religion. I mean, they didn't talk about their religion, uh, you know, at least in front of me, uh--

FERNHEIMER: How old were you at the time, when this happened? This was high 00:25:00school? College?

MILLER: Yeah, it was in high school.

FERNHEIMER: And--

MILLER: And he's no longer living--(laughs)--the person that--he got killed boxing in the Army.

FERNHEIMER: Oh! (laughter) That's a difficult--

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --way to go.

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Um, are there any other vivid memories from your childhood that you'd want to share, uh--

MILLER: Well, I--you know, I--I think one of the--and I--I've mentioned him again--before, but I--I think probably one of the, uh, emotional losses that I felt was when Rabbi Grafman left Lexington. And I--and, uh, granted, I was only in the first grade, uh, but he left--he left Lexington on Pearl Harbor Day. And, uh, uh, he would come back periodically, uh, just to, you know, visit. And 00:26:00he would always stay at our house when he came back. And he was, you know, just a--a pleasant, uh, person to be around. I mean, I--uh, at least my recollection--I don't--you know, I--I didn't have him as a rabbi, as such, but, uh, you know--uh, but his daughter and I were very good friends, and I have--got a picture of the two of us in the first grade, dressed in--I guess as Mexicans or some--exactly what we were. It was for--so, I was--I don't remember what it was for, even. Probably Halloween or--yeah, I don't know what it was for, but, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And how did you--did you come to be close with her through school or because--

MILLER: Yeah, we went to school--

FERNHEIMER: Were your parents close or--

MILLER: We--well, both, I think. But we were at Kendrick School together, uh, 00:27:00you know, and, of course, I knew her before, you know, hand, because we'd be at their house and they would be at ours and, uh--

FERNHEIMER: So, your parents had a kind of close relationship with the rabbi.

MILLER: Yes, yeah. No, and of course, in those days, uh, as much as you can be close. And we didn't have--you know, uh, we didn't have, uh, rabbis very long. Uh, our--we would get--

FERNHEIMER: Why is that?

MILLER: Well, we--'cause we would get them, usually, out of HUC [Hebrew Union College], and Cincinnati was the only school of HUC at the time. And, uh, they would be here for two, three years, and then they would get, you know, jobs either paying better or in high--bigger congregations, and--and they would move on. Uh, but one of--(laughs)--and this goes up to at least--up in time, but, 00:28:00uh, the--the Union had biennials every--uh, convention.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

MILLER: Regional or national conventions every two years. And we would always have our, uh, former rabbis to a cocktail party at the--at the biennials. So, they stayed in--you know, we stayed in good terms with almost all of them. Uh, but, uh, you know, that didn't always ------(??) I mean, you know, there was--they weren't here long enough to--to--for people to get upset with them too much. So, uh--

FERNHEIMER: But obviously, he was here long enough for you to feel a real loss when--

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --he left.

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Tell me about your connection with Rabbi Grafman, uh--

MILLER: Well, I mean, I was--that was pretty much the connection, you know? It was--it was, you know, through the families. Uh, I--you know, I'd--and I know 00:29:00that you have seen the article, uh, or, oh, the--the letter from the Birmingham jail--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

MILLER: --uh, that he was--you know, he went to Birmingham when he left here, and stayed there until he died. Uh, but he was one of the seven clergy to sign that letter to, uh, Dr. King. And, uh, I always thought that was sort of cool, you know, that, uh, he was--he was ahead of his time in the reform movement, I think, uh, uh--

FERNHEIMER: In terms of the way he identified with--

MILLER: Yeah, I--yeah, those--it--on a--on a, uh, cultural level, he was much more liberal than--than necessarily the movement was, [I guess?].

FERNHEIMER: Do you mean specifically vis-à-vis race relations, or in a different way?

MILLER: In a--in--not relig--I mean, not religiously, but in--uh, you know, 00:30:00from the standpoint of--of cultural, uh, aspects of life. Uh, and probably was ahead of his time in the South, in particular. Uh, you know, because that's--you know, the South is not much for, you know, the integration movement, so, uh--you know, I always thought very highly of him, uh, and--

FERNHEIMER: Do--

MILLER: --uh, like I say, I would see him two or three times after he left here. He--the--'cause he would--like, he would stay with us, so I would see him, and we would--we never talked about anything in particular. But, you know, it was just sort of fun to--to, uh, to do that.

FERNHEIMER: Were you aware--at--at the time, when you were older and he came back to stay with you--of--of the letter he wrote and its significance?

MILLER: No. I didn't even know it until recent--in time--in, yeah, in recent times.

FERNHEIMER: And did he talk about things related to race relations in the synagogue or the temple?

MILLER: No. No, he just talked--just general talk, you know? He--I mean, he was just a--sort of a down-to-earth person when he wasn't doing his rabbinical stuff, you know? (laughs) And I don't know what he was like doing that, so I--you know, I'm--he may have been that way there, too, 'cause, you know, like I say, he was there forever, so, uh, couldn't have been too bad. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And did he ever come--not during the holiday season, but did he come to your house for Shabbas, or did you have--

MILLER: No, no.

FERNHEIMER: --Shabbat with him?

MILLER: No, no. And we didn't--we didn't, uh, do anything special for Shabbat, uh, growing up in--in--you know, it just--you know, was just another day, another meal.

FERNHEIMER: Were there family meals around holidays or--

MILLER: In those--in those days for--like, for--uh, uh, Seder, uh--

FERNHEIMER: For Passover?

MILLER: For Passover, they, uh--the Seder was at the temple. And, I--you know, my best guess is that there weren't that many that had, uh, you know, second day Seder in--uh, in people's homes. I--you know, I--if they did, I didn't know it. [But?]--

FERNHEIMER: When you went--

MILLER: But the--with the whole--you know, it was pretty much that--it was a congregational--

FERNHEIMER: Seder.

MILLER: --thing, yeah. I mean, it--and that was--pretty much most of the people from the congregation were there.

FERNHEIMER: How--how many people were in the congregation? Or how many would come for the--that congregational Seder?

MILLER: A lot. A lot, you know? I never count--[you know, they?]--

FERNHEIMER: More than a hundred?

MILLER: Oh, it wouldn't surprise me. Uh, but then again, I don't know ------(??) you know, how many people even belonged in those days.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

MILLER: ------(??) belong today, either, but--(laughs)--but, uh, uh, it--you know, everybody knew each other, you know? And, uh, uh, you know, until IBM [International Business Machines Corporation] came to Lexington, uh, there weren't many outsiders. I mean, I say outsiders. I mean, those people who were not either in business or in the professions or farming or whatever in Lexington. I mean, there was--lot of the same people.

FERNHEIMER: Lot of locals?

MILLER: Lot of locals.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And when did IBM come?

MILLER: Fifties, I think. I can't remember. And that was--you know, that was the beginning of industry moving to Lexington. And with that, a number of Jewish people would come--university growing, people would come to university. Uh, VA [Veterans Administration] Hospital brought in, uh, uh, the two top--I can 00:34:00remember--I don't remember age-wise, but the two top people at the VA Hospital were both Jewish. Uh, both of them belonged to the temple, but, uh, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And so, after you graduated from high school and you went on to study at UK [University of Kentucky].

MILLER: Right.

FERNHEIMER: Um--

MILLER: I went to law school at UK, graduated from law school.

FERNHEIMER: When did you decide to be a student at UK--(laughter)--and can you tell me a little bit about your experiences?

MILLER: There--there wasn't a--there wasn't a decision to be made. That's where I was going to go. (laughter) If I was going anyplace, I was going to University of Kentucky. Um, and, uh, I lived at home. I didn't live in the fraternity--uh, dorm. I didn't--when I joined a fraternity, I didn't live in 00:35:00the fraternity house. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: What did you study?

MILLER: Where did I study?

FERNHEIMER: What did you study?

MILLER: Oh, I studied, uh--

FERNHEIMER: What was your major?

MILLER: --well, I majored in political science. Uh, and I always tell people the reason I majored in that was because I had more hours in political science than anything else when I had to decide. (laughs) [So, was?]--um--

FERNHEIMER: It's not that different today. (laughs)

MILLER: No. Um, we did have a Jewish professor in political science.

FERNHEIMER: Who was that?

MILLER: Wish you hadn't asked me that.

FERNHEIMER: It'll come back to you.

MILLER: Yeah, I--

FERNHEIMER: Pretend I didn't.

MILLER: But, uh--(laughs)--I--I can still--you know, just a--as an aside and just sort of as a--I mean, he told us one thing, at the end of our--I took economic geography from him, and he said that the--when we were there taking our final, he said, "I just want to tell you something before this exam starts." He 00:36:00said, "When you finish the exam, forget everything that I have taught you, because in two years, it'll all change." [You know, and?], uh, I thought that was sort of nice to hear. (laughs) You know? But, uh, I don't--you know, to--to my recollection, he's--uh, he's the only one that I knew that I can think of off the top of my head that was Jewish that was--taught--teaching at UK at the time.

FERNHEIMER: And when were you a student? Just for the official record.

MILLER: At University of Kentucky.

FERNHEIMER: From when to when? From--

MILLER: Oh, I--I started UK in 1953 and graduated in '57.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: And then I started law school in '57, and I graduated in '62, I believe. And the reason, the--so much time is that I went--I'd take a year out to go to--I went in the Reserves to six--so, I had to serve six months on active 00:37:00duty, um--

FERNHEIMER: Where did you serve?

MILLER: Where? Fort Knox, and then Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And I--and I served--at that time, I was in the Medical Service Corps.

FERNHEIMER: What did you do?

MILLER: Uh, I took care of the payroll. (laughter) Uh, and--though we had a number of Jewish people in our Reserve unit, uh, uh, Bill [Winniker?] was in it. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: He was also in the fraternity, right?

MILLER: No, Bill wasn't. He didn't go to school here. He didn't go to, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Wasn't there a Winniker? Maybe it wasn't the--

MILLER: Jimmy.

FERNHEIMER: Jimmy Winniker.

MILLER: Jim, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: He played football.

MILLER: No, he--don't think he--no.

FERNHEIMER: No?

MILLER: I don't think so. I don't think so. He's big enough to have played football, but I don't think--I--you know, if he did--he was older than us, so--

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: Uh--

FERNHEIMER: Somebody mentioned Jimmy Winniker, and his parents owned a shoe store?

MILLER: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Downtown.

MILLER: Downtown. And--and the--one--the person who I--was in confirmation class with, the--Les Aberson, uh, his father--his--it was--his mother was related to the Winnikers, and his father ran the men's store, uh, while the--[Al Winniker?] and boys, I guess. And Jim, and--and their--and their mother, Mary, uh, ran the women's store.

FERNHEIMER: What were the stores called? Do you--

MILLER: It was called Winniker's.

FERNHEIMER: Winniker's?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And so, they had more than one store?

MILLER: Well, there was one store, but they were two--

FERNHEIMER: Two sides?

MILLER: Two sides sort of thing, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Where was it located?

MILLER: Down Main Street.

FERNHEIMER: And, sorry, and so if--we kind of--

MILLER: I know, we jumped around.

FERNHEIMER: I jumped around, that was my fault. Um, but you were telling me 00:39:00about your time in college, at UK. Can you tell me a little bit about the fraternity?

MILLER: Yeah, I was--uh, I pledged the fraternity, and--

FERNHEIMER: Which one?

MILLER: ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau], in--so, in '52.

FERNHEIMER: Who else was in your pledge class?

MILLER: Oh, God, wish you--I know Les Aberson was in there. Uh, Bill Golton. Uh, Billy Galton was from--was, uh--think he was from Winchester.

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember what his family did--

MILLER: No.

FERNHEIMER: --in Winchester?

MILLER: No.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Golton? G-O-L--

MILLER: G-O-L-T-O-N.

FERNHEIMER: --T-O-N?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: Uh--

FERNHEIMER: And Aberson? A-B-E?

MILLER: A-B-E-R-S-O-N.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. And Les was still here in Lexington?

MILLER: No, Les is Louisville.

FERNHEIMER: In Louisville.

MILLER: Yeah. Uh, well, at least--I think he's--I think he still lives there, but I don't--I'm not sure. I haven't seen him in--or talked to him in several years, but, uh--and then, Jerry Josselson.

FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that?

MILLER: J-O-S-S-E-L-S-O-N. He's from--he was from Ashland, Kentucky. And I'm just trying to--I--I can't--those are the ones that [sprang?]--you know, stick out in my mind. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember who your pledge master was?

MILLER: (laughs) Was probably Marty.

FERNHEIMER: Solomon?

MILLER: Yeah, but I'm not going to swear to it. But I--probably. (laughter) And--and we did have--just to--just as--just as a side--from when--when--my freshman year, our pledge class kidnapped one of our active members.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, really?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Which one?

MILLER: George [Spector?], who was from Pittsburgh.

FERNHEIMER: And what did you do with George Spector?

MILLER: We drove to, uh, Oxford, Ohio, to the University of [Miami?], to the ZBT house there.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Okay.

MILLER: And, uh, he got--uh, we took him on a Friday, and got up there Friday evening. And he was--to say he was livid may be an understatement, because George was a big basketball fan. And in those days, you didn't televise basketball games. And he couldn't get back to Lexington to see the basketball game.

FERNHEIMER: Oh.

MILLER: And he was so unhappy. (laughs) But we spent the weekend up there, [and it was?]--(laughs)

FERNHEIMER: And how many--how big was the house in Miami at the time?

MILLER: I don't--you know, it--probably about like us. I mean, there weren't that many.

FERNHEIMER: How many guys would you say?

MILLER: It's hard for me to--I--I wouldn't even guess. I--I can't even tell you how many we had here. Uh, I got--you know, we had a house mother. Her name was Mrs. Miller.

FERNHEIMER: Not related.

MILLER: Not related. Uh, she was a real pleasure.

FERNHEIMER: And how old was she, living in the house with these young--

MILLER: Uh, [maybe?]--

FERNHEIMER: Was she an older woman or a younger woman?

MILLER: Eh, she wasn't young, no. She was, you know, probably older. You know, middle-aged, above, but, uh, she would have dinner with us. And we'd only have dinner there. I guess--you know, I think they only had dinner. I can't remember if they had breakfast or not, but probably not.

FERNHEIMER: And would you eat there, even though you lived at home?

MILLER: I would eat dinner there sometime. Um, when I was a senior, I was president of the fraternity.

FERNHEIMER: So, that was in 1953?

MILLER: Six--'57.

FERNHEIMER: So, six--

MILLER: Fifty-six, '57, 'cause I graduated in '57, so, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And what were part of your--so, did you live in the house then? Or no?

MILLER: No, but we had a president's room.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, that's why I was asking.

MILLER: Uh, but--(laughs)--since I wasn't going to live there, some--it got, uh, preempted by one of the other fellahs that--you know, probably Jerry, uh, Josselson probably took it over. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember how many brothers were there when you were president?

MILLER: We had--there was one other fellah from Lexington that was there, was, uh, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Aside from Les?

MILLER: Uh, yeah. Um--(laughs)--Sidney--not Sidney. Casey Newman.

FERNHEIMER: Casey Newman.

MILLER: He's from here. He was from Lexington. Uh, you know, I can't remember--he was--he'd--I can't remember if he was one of the--if he was on--related to the Rosenbergs or--or not. I'm--I'm not con--I think so. I think--yeah, I think he may be a cousin of Joyce's. Joyce [Michener?].

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: Uh, I think. Um, but I'd say we probably had fifteen.

FERNHEIMER: Fifteen brothers?

MILLER: Probably, at least.

FERNHEIMER: How many, roughly, lived in the house?

MILLER: Well, we had three floors. Uh, lived at 123 State Street, the infamous State Street. (laughter) Uh, now it's infamous with the basketball--burning of the cars and all that kind of stuff, but, uh, wasn't in those days, was very--

FERNHEIMER: Couches. Couches, I think, right?

MILLER: Huh?

FERNHEIMER: That's what they like to burn now. Couches?

MILLER: Couches and cars and whatever, yeah. (laughs) Anything that they can get hold of [that lights?].

FERNHEIMER: No couches burning back then?

MILLER: No, no couches burning back then, and, uh--

FERNHEIMER: What was your typical celebration, or how did--did you guys go to the games to watch?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And tell me--

MILLER: And football.

FERNHEIMER: --about that. What was that like?

MILLER: Oh, it was fun. We'd go together. And, uh, you know, football, we--we beat Tennessee one year, which is always the last game of the season. And, uh, we stormed--along with--lot of other people, stormed the field at--and tore down the goal post. And, uh, uh, one of the fraternity brothers, uh, uh ------(??) I can't remember--[Pete?] is the younger one. Uh, but, uh, he dated a girl who was a ZTA [Zeta Tau Alpha]. And we tore the pole--the goal post down. And we took it and marched to the sorority house and gave it to them. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: We, as in ZBT?

MILLER: Uh-huh. (laughter) Yeah. Four or five of us, maybe six of us, you know?

FERNHEIMER: And you brought it to the ZTA house?

MILLER: Uh-huh. (laughs) ------(??)

FERNHEIMER: And--and how did they receive it?

MILLER: Oh, they loved it, yeah. (laughs) You know.

FERNHEIMER: And was ZTA mostly Jewish girls?

MILLER: [No, um?], no, I don't know if they had any. But, uh--

FERNHEIMER: But just because the one brother had a girlfriend there?

MILLER: Yeah. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit more about, um, your social life as a student? Were there other organizations you were involved with, uh--

MILLER: Hillel.

FERNHEIMER: Hillel.

MILLER: Uh-huh. They would--you know, and--and in--in those days, we had a pretty good number of Jewish students, you know. Uh, lot more than they have now, apparently. Um--

FERNHEIMER: How many students--Jewish students would you say in Hillel?

MILLER: Well, I would say we would have twenty or so, or more, to show up for Hillel. They would have, uh, dinner. I would say either once a week--either every Sunday or once a month, I can't remember which one it was. But it was always a Sunday dinner. And everybody would go there for dinner, 'cause we 00:47:00didn't have a dinner--Sunday dinner at the fraternity house.

FERNHEIMER: Fraternity house? (laughter)

MILLER: And we'd all go, you know, to--to, uh, Hillel.

FERNHEIMER: And so, where did the Hillel dinners take place?

MILLER: At temple.

FERNHEIMER: At Temple Adath Israel?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And how would you get there? Would you walk or drive or--

MILLER: We'd drive. You know, I--I--the--I think almost all of us had cars. Uh, I got my first car when I was a freshman.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah?

MILLER: And my [eighth?]--

FERNHEIMER: What was it?

MILLER: Well, it was a Nash Rambler convertible.

FERNHEIMER: A what kind?

MILLER: Nash Rambler.

FERNHEIMER: What color?

MILLER: Blue, I think, but I don't--I don't--that I can't--that I don't remember, but--(laughter)--probably--it was used. Uh, my aunt's second husband had passed away and left me--

FERNHEIMER: The convertible?

MILLER: No, left me--couple thousand dollars or something. And it was enough 00:48:00to buy the car. And, uh, so I--you know, I just--I loved it, you know? (laughter) And, uh--

FERNHEIMER: So, would you use it to drive to Hillel for--

MILLER: Oh, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --dinners?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And did you bring others with you?

MILLER: I'm sure I did, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: What did--do you recall what they served for dinner?

MILLER: I would just--cook meal, I mean, you know, women in the congregation would--

FERNHEIMER: Would make the meal?

MILLER: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: So, uh--

MILLER: It--probably once a month, I guess, but I'm not going to--

FERNHEIMER: And were there young women who would come, as well?

MILLER: Yeah, yeah. So, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Was it mostly folks from UK? Or was it also folks from ------(??)

MILLER: No, I don't--you know, I don't ever remember anybody from Transylvania. Uh, you know, and I don't know if there was any--to be honest, I don't know if there are even Jewish students at Transylvania at the time, uh--

FERNHEIMER: EKU [Eastern Kentucky University]? Anywhere else?

MILLER: No.

FERNHEIMER: Okay, uh--

MILLER: You know, I'm sure that there were, you know, uh, you know, one or two, maybe. But, uh, I don't remember any specific people that were--

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember the names of anyone who used to come--

MILLER: No, [because I wouldn't?] remember there being any, so I--you know, I--

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, or--or just the students who would go to--with you to Hillel?

MILLER: Oh, you know, I--you know, the--the ones I've mentioned, you know? George Spector and Marty Solomon and Early Levy and, uh, I know that you also--done an interview with, uh, Irv [Holsteen?].

FERNHEIMER: Not yet.

MILLER: [So, what--or?]--uh, or not ------(??) who was it? Somebody--

FERNHEIMER: [Gene Dubath?]?

MILLER: Gene [Dubau?]. Gene Dubau, maybe. Yeah, he was, uh, I think he may have been in Earl's class. I'm not even sure. Earl and Marty's. But, uh, uh, they were still here at--you know, when I was a freshman, so, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember anything about a Hillel debating society?

MILLER: Never heard of it.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: Was there one?

FERNHEIMER: The--apparently there was one. Harriet Rose mentioned it in her--

MILLER: Oh, must have been--

FERNHEIMER: --interview.

MILLER: --back in--it must have been back in her day.

FERNHEIMER: And--(laughter)--I'd never heard of such a thing, so I'm trying to find out more information about it.

MILLER: Never heard of it.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Not here, not at Miami, not--

MILLER: Not anywhere. I mean, it's--

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, so when you were president, what were the kinds of things that you had to do? Were you involved with other sororities or fraternities on campus or--

MILLER: Oh, I--I'm sure that we probably belonged to the inter-fraternity council. So, we would have had some connection, if they had meetings. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: Did you have to go? As the president?

MILLER: I'm sure. I'm sure. But it's not something that just strikes--you know, that stands out in my mind about it. It--but I'm--I'm--you know, I feel certain that we did, you know? I don't--we would--you know, it--it's a--as 00:51:00a--we did a lot of things that--you know, as--just as a group. I mean, we'd go out and have a drink here and there and, you know, and--and, uh, uh, we'd have parties at the fraternity house, often. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: Like, once a week or--

MILLER: Eh, maybe once a week, maybe once every couple weeks. But we would have them fairly regularly.

FERNHEIMER: Who did you all invite to the parties?

MILLER: The girls. (laughter) You know?

FERNHEIMER: What girls? From--

MILLER: [Well, Kitty?], you know. There was a Kitty somebody, but I can't remember her name. I just remember Kitty, now. Uh, Janice--

FERNHEIMER: Doctorow?

MILLER: --uh, Doctorow. Uh, um, probably, uh, I guess Kay Frankel, probably, was--[I don't know?]--she's not here any--in Lexington anymore. She lives up in Oxford, Ohio. She's in a--or Miami, someplace up there. She's in a--assisted 00:52:00living place up there. She got a son that lives up there.

FERNHEIMER: Was it mostly girls from the Phi Sigma Sigma--

MILLER: Yeah, yeah. FERNHEIMER: --sorority?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Were there other girls? Non-Jewish girls?

MILLER: No. Well, the--you know, there's--occasion--I mean, like, [Shelley Janowicz?], that's his name. I mean, he had the--one girlfriend. I think he's not a--longer living. Pete, his younger brother, is. Every once in a while, I'll see him on Facebook. (laughs) I don't ever communicate with him, but he's in--he's in Florida.

FERNHEIMER: He's in Florida.

MILLER: Uh, we were--you know, I was--I was friends with--and, you know, with at least one of the football players. Uh, not Jewish. Uh, we would--

FERNHEIMER: Who is that?

MILLER: I can't remember, but three--there were three of us that would take French together.

FERNHEIMER: Fraternity brothers or football player--

MILLER: One football player and then another fraternity brother and myself. And we'd--we'd sit ------(??) we had Pierre [Ship?], we used to call him. He was the French teacher. We always took him. He was strange, uh--(laughs)--and we would sit in the back of the classroom and make fun of him and--(laughs)--you know? But, uh--and then, uh, another one ------(??) [with the?]--Lou Michaels was--football player. And there was another Jewish fellah, and I can't remember who it was. And I--the three of us, Lou and--and the two of us took the economic geography course together. And the final exam, uh, two of us sat here 00:54:00and then Lou Michaels would sit in between us. (laughs) And he would sit there and look one side and look at the other. And the professor came back saying, "Now, look, fellahs, you can't cheat." Say, "We're not doing anything!" He said, "Well, just don't do it." (laughs) You know? The--Lou looked at us, he said, "He caught you cheating, did he?" (laughter) Nothing about him, but, you know, us, he--you know, we were cheating off of him! (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Were there consequences?

MILLER: No. He--I don't think he got any notes. I don't think he read it--could read anything, but he kept looking.

FERNHEIMER: He was trying.

MILLER: He was trying. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: How would you say your time in--at UK and also in ZBT, uh, impacted the way you thought about your Jewishness?

MILLER: Well, I don't really think it had much of an impact, as such. Uh, you 00:55:00know, it was--you know, from a--a social standpoint, uh, we didn't, for the most part, socialize with the non-Jewish people on campus. So, I guess to some degree that--I mean, I--I don't want to say that was discrimination, 'cause that may have been just us--maybe not feeling that we wanted to. I mean, I don't--I don't think that there was anything that stopped us from doing it. But I don't--you know, I didn't ever go to any other fraternity function for any other fraternity or--or sorority. Um, I don't remember anybody particularly talking about socializing with anybody outside of the fraternity. Um, but that's pretty 00:56:00much what we did. I mean, we--you know, and we would say a prayer, you know, before meals, you know? Uh, I don't know if we did the, uh, uh, prayer after the service--after meals or not. I'd--my guess is probably not. But, uh, uh--you know, and I don't know what--to be honest, uh--most of--many of the people--I have no idea, uh, what branch of--of, uh, of Judaism anybody, uh, practiced. Uh, you know, and I don't know if any of the meals were served, uh, 00:57:00would pass muster for kashrut. Uh, I would doubt that there was pork served. But then, I'm not going to swear to that, either. But, uh, it's--that's--it's not--that was nothing that I ever--was ever concerned about, uh--

FERNHEIMER: That would--that wasn't part of your realm as president?

MILLER: Or--or--or in life in general, you know?

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

MILLER: And, you know, again, until--getting married, you know, that--got to see a different perspective, which is not bad, is good. And, you know, we don't serve anything that's, you know, ham or pork or any of that kind of stuff at our house. And, you know, uh, (laughs) I had a fellah that practiced law in the 00:58:00same office where I was originally. Used to always have a Christmas party. And, uh, he would always have country ham. And, uh, I would eat it. And somebody came up to me and said, "Jack," he said, "I thought you were Jewish and you weren't supposed to eat ham." I said, "It's not. I blessed it and made it corned beef." (laughter) So, you know, it--but, uh, as far as, you know, college time was concerned, I--you know, I--I feel certain that there were, uh, at least Conservative branched individuals whose family belonged to that--or, you know, uh, so--I mean, I know Earl's parents belonged to both congregations.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

MILLER: Um, Earl's--Earl had a sister--or has a sister, Bobbi, who was younger. 00:59:00Younger than me. And, uh, uh, you know, I--my recollection is that she was very much--you know, just temple-wise, you know, uh, Earl is--he's--now more--is mostly synagogue, but I--but, you know, growing up, he belonged to--

FERNHEIMER: [To both?]?

MILLER: --both, yeah. Um, and, uh, at one point in time, um--I hate to talk--keep talking about myself, but, uh, one of the ------(??)

FERNHEIMER: Well, that's why I have you here. (laughs)

MILLER: Well, one of--one of the things that I did for many years, uh, was--I was advisor of the temple youth group.

FERNHEIMER: From when to when?

MILLER: God, I can't remember when I started and when I ended. But Bill [Leffler?] was president--was rabbi when I ended it, because--(laughs)--I was president of the congregation at the time, and--and, uh, he wasn't on our [add?] 01:00:00list at the time. And, uh--

FERNHEIMER: So, you were president of the congregation and the advisor to the youth group--

MILLER: Oh, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --at the same time?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

MILLER: And I was also adviser for the whole region of--of the Ohio Valley Federation of Temple Youth. I was advisor for the whole region, as well, uh, as well as local. But I did the whole region, too. And, um, um, forgot why--where I was going with this, but, um, Earl--uh, Earl belonged--uh, belonged to [the--I think Bobbi?] belonged to the youth group. We also--at that time, the synagogue did not have a youth group. Uh, there--there was, at one point in time, a--uh, what is the--

FERNHEIMER: USY [United Synagogue Youth]?

MILLER: USY--well, no, it wasn't USY. It was the, uh, AZA [Aleph Zadik Aleph], or BBYO [B'nai B'rith Youth Organization], actually. They had a BBYO, uh, at one point in time. But it went by the way of all things. Uh, but, uh, we had members, uh, whose parents only belonged to the synagogue, who we allowed to join the temple youth group. Uh, and as a matter of fact, I, uh, was instrumental at one point in time in getting, uh, permission from the board to allow, uh, non-temple members to be officers in the youth group.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

MILLER: Um, and, uh, you know, and people you might know. [Alan Stine?]--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

MILLER: --and Terri and Ricki, all three belonged to the, uh, youth group. 01:02:00Joyce Michener belonged. Um, I'm--and that--those stick out in my mind as--as, uh--and I'm sure there were others, too. But, uh--and there were two--there were two programs that stay out in my mind that I think--and I've tried to get them to institute it again sometime. Uh, and that one just made me remember it. Uh, I was in the county attorney's office at the time, also, and, uh, I arranged, uh, with, uh, some police officers--or a police officer, anyway, uh, with the knowledge of parents, but not of individuals--well, yeah, some individuals, that they came to a youth group meeting and arrested Alan--

FERNHEIMER: Oh! MILLER: --at the youth group meeting.

FERNHEIMER: For?

MILLER: Possession of marijuana. And they took him out and drove off. And I said, "[Whoops?], folks, we'd better have a meeting of the--you know, we'd better have a discussion here." This is from the--you know, of the other people who were at the youth group meeting. "And what are we going to do when Alan comes back? How are we going to treat him?" Well, the girls did not--Terri and Ricki did not know about it. And they were hysterical. They tried to call their parents, couldn't get them. And we sat there, and we had a discussion about what we were going to do, how we were going to treat him when he came back. Of course, then the police brought him back in and I told him what--told 01:04:00everybody this is what happened. But, um, it was--it was probably the best program I ever participated in. It really--I mean, it was just phenomenal, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And what did they decide in that meeting, how they were going to--

MILLER: Well--

FERNHEIMER: --treat him?

MILLER: --uh, it was--I mean, I don't think we ever came--with any final--you know, we [got?]--either got from the standpoint of we're just not going to let him come back to the standpoint we're going to have to treat him like we did--you know, have to understand, you know? Uh, you know, I--[think?] to say, I don't know who if anybody here uses marijuana. And I don't know if they did or not, to this day. But, uh, so, you know, it was--it was really a very good program. I mean, [it was--it?]--to me, you know, I--it's--it's the program that I remember, of all the programs we had. And we would have youth group meetings, 01:05:00temple youth group meetings, we'd have it twice a month. Once in the afternoon, where we would have a meeting, and, you know, just a--and we'd get together and just have a meeting about different things. And then we would have--the other time, we'd have a dinner meeting on the other Sunday, uh, where the--

FERNHEIMER: Always on Sundays?

MILLER: Always Sundays, afternoon. And we would have dinner. And, uh, the parents would all get together and--and, you know, alternate for fixing the--for fixing the meal. And then, the other program, which was, uh, I mentioned to you on the elevator, I think, coming up here, but--um, I took the region--or, you know, representatives from different--all the congregations in--within the region, uh, we took a--a trip. We were going to Washington, D.C.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

MILLER: Uh, we took a bus trip. Uh, we--everybody went to Cincinnati and 01:06:00caught the bus in Cincinnati, if I'm--remember right. But we may have started here and just gone to Cincinnati. (laughs) Um, and we arrived at--we were staying at the--I can't think of the name of the hotel, but it's right across the street from where the UAHC [Union of American Hebrew Congregations], uh, social action center either is or was, at least in those days.

FERNHEIMER: In D.C. or in Cincinnati?

MILLER: In D.C. In D.C. And we got to the hotel and found out that they were burning Washington. You know, Washington, the--the--I guess I--probably was--I guess when King was killed, I'm not sure. I can't remember what the--

FERNHEIMER: The context?

MILLER: Context, you know, context of it was. But, um, so, we didn't get to tour--(laughs)--much of Washington. But fortunately, we were able to do, 01:07:00programmatically, things, because all we had to do was walk across the street. Uh, but it was, uh, a--that was--I mean, we'd go to the top of the hotel and look out over Washington, and you could see Washington burning. I mean, it was just a--unbelievable sight, you know? You can see pictures of it all you want. Uh, but it was just unbelievable. And--and, uh, I think probably those people who were there probably will never--have forgotten it either. Uh, but, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And did you shift the conversation? Or, I guess, how did that shift the conversation?

MILLER: Well, I mean, yeah, we ended up--I mean, of course, we were going to be talking about social action anyway. Uh, but, uh, Dave [Sapperstein?] was, uh, head of the religious action center, and I think--as a matter of fact, I think he just retired. Uh, Rabbi--and--and, uh, I also, you know, I'd like to pat 01:08:00myself on the back, I guess, but, uh, at--at one of the union biennials, uh, there were three people who were--who--who--chairing the social action workshop. Dave Sapperstein, uh--God, I can't think of the rabbi--the other rabbi's name. He's very famous in the social action area. And Jack Miller. There were three of us--were chairing, which I thought was sort of exciting for me, you know, to be able--and those--you know, in that, uh, context, uh--

FERNHEIMER: This was in the '60s?

MILLER: Yeah, probably, or early '70s, maybe.

FERNHEIMER: So, would you say--uh, we started this part of the conversation talking about your--kind of your leadership role in ZBT, as president. Um--

MILLER: Well ------(??)

FERNHEIMER: --how would you say that your experiences as--

MILLER: Oh, I think it helps. I think it--I think that--and I think that--I think that being advisor to the youth group, you know, the organizational kind of standpoint, uh, uh, you know, it was, uh, always helpful. It was very helpful. Uh, you know, 'cause I--you know, you could--you say what did you learn being president? I can't tell you. But I know that I learned a lot of patience, you know? You got diverse kinds of people, uh, with diverse ideas and diverse opinions and, uh, you have to deal with all of it. And, uh, uh, 'cause that sort of role is--is very helpful.

FERNHEIMER: So, you talked a lot about these experiences as--as leading the youth and this kind of impactful experience of watching D.C. burn? How does 01:10:00that element of civil rights play into the way that you think about either your role as a leader or your role--or your Jewish identity? I think that was the question that sort of started as down this path.

MILLER: Well, um, it certainly made me aware of--more aware of--of, uh, the issues. Um, I've always been some--somewhat liberal, uh, from the standpoint of--of--of, uh, black/white relations. Probably not as much as some others. Uh, you know, my brother was much more outgoing in those areas than--than I was. 01:11:00But, um, we--we had a maid growing up. She lived at our house. She lived--she got--be off one day a week. Uh, we would go to her house and pick her up and sit in the house and talk to her and her daughter and son-in-law and nephew. Uh, we never called her maid or anything like that. It was Emma, you know? Uh, and, she would--she would take us out for--when we were kids. I mean, she would take us out for walks and, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Was she African American?

MILLER: Oh, yeah. Her--her son-in-law was--was the custodian of--I think it 01:12:00then was Johnson School, but I'm not sure what--someplace downtown. Uh, but, uh, she was--I mean, it--it--I never had any--you know, I--I'd--I didn't stay out of--of, uh, of, uh, the, uh, ten cent store because the blacks were going to sit at the counter. Uh, you know, it--you know, uh, [and it's?]--another person. I didn't--I wasn't--however, I wasn't like some other people I know who--who, uh, you know, would, uh, go sit in the back of the bus just because that's where the blacks were sitting. They would--the whites sat--these white people that I knew would go sit in the back of the bus, you know? (laughs) 01:13:00Well, I was--but I never paid any attention to it, you know? I'm not sure I could tell you that there were blacks sitting in the back of the bus, or not sitting in the front. I don't think I ever paid any attention to it. Um--

FERNHEIMER: Did you experience--or, I guess, let me rephrase that. How were your experiences when you walked through town with Emma? Were you a--did others treat you differently?

MILLER: No. No. Mr. Foley, who was our mailman, would stop and would give us rides and--in the back of his mail truck, you know? You know, was just--you know, my friends would call her--you know, they'd come to the house and they'd call her Emma, too, you know? It was not--

FERNHEIMER: Was it common?

MILLER: Uh--

FERNHEIMER: Did your friends also have--

MILLER: No.

FERNHEIMER: --live-in maids?

MILLER: No, no. None that I would have--no, none of my friends had any. So, I 01:14:00mean, it was just something that we had, you know?

FERNHEIMER: So, I guess related to that--it seems strange to transition this conversation back, but in some ways, um, did you have any experiences of anti-Semitism while you were a student at UK?

MILLER: No, no.

FERNHEIMER: And did you ever--well, you described going off campus for Hillel, which took place at the temple. Um, and can you tell me a little bit of--more about what Jewish life was like in Lexington at that time? And perhaps connected--well, start with that, and I have a follow-up question for you.

MILLER: Well, yeah, I mean, I think that most of Jewish life was either--was centered around the congregations. Uh, you know, people would--people would 01:15:00have functions in their homes, you know, and we'd have parties or something. But, uh, you know, I think that, you know, that the--um, just like I told you about Passover, you know, that was--that was a community function, you know? And--and, uh, I mean, both congregations now say, well, it's a community, uh, or congregational Seder. Uh, but many--in both congregations [were all?] three, probably. The [Havarah?].

FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. (laughter) I was, like, the third--right. The Havarah.

MILLER: Would, um, draw--uh, you know, more than--would have in somebody's home. But--but it's not--didn't have the exclusivity like it did then, or 01:16:00doesn't have the exclusivity that, like, it did then, uh, because there were, you know, more--you know, they would--there would be another Passover, another Seder, you know?

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

MILLER: And--and not necessarily that one would be more important than the other, but they--you know, they would be, certainly, different segments.

FERNHEIMER: Of the community? It sounds really separated.

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Um, what were some of the other highlights of your time as a student at UK?

MILLER: Oh, you know, I--I--I can't--I really can't think of highlights, as such, other than, you know, just the few different activities that happened, 01:17:00but, uh, you know, pledging, that was fun, you know? It was--I mean, in those days, you--you know, they--you had to--you had to wear--we had to wear, uh, at least one day a week, I guess, on whatever day ------(??) meeting was, we had to wear sack cloths underneath our clothes. Uh, you know, it was sort of a--what do they call it? Uh, you know, doing those kind of--stuff. Uh, you know, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Sort of like hazing?

MILLER: Hazing, yeah. It was--there was--it was sort of a--sort of a hazing sort of thing. Uh, which you--you can't do that anymore. Uh, you know, and, uh, I mean, it never--I don't think it ever got out of hand, hazing, at least in our fraternity. But, you know, there were just those kinds of things that we did. And I--you know, uh, it sort of brings you more together that you're--you 01:18:00know, you're--you're--you can [hate the actives?] and, you know, and, uh, when you're pledges, and--and, uh, you can--you're lowlife as a pledge, when you're inactive, and--(laughs)--you know, it--and--and, uh, uh, and the road trip that we took George on. And, uh, uh--(laughs)--uh--

FERNHEIMER: Do you have any advice you'd give to Jewish students at UK today?

MILLER: Well, I think they ought to have a fraternity again. Uh, you know, I don't know how many Jewish students there are at UK anymore. Uh, but they--after--after ZBT went out of business, uh, they--they--

FERNHEIMER: When did--when did the house close?

MILLER: [I don't know?].

FERNHEIMER: Do you know?

MILLER: I don't--

FERNHEIMER: --okay--

MILLER: --remember. It was after I was gone. Uh, we moved over to Maxwellton Court. They moved, uh--

FERNHEIMER: From State Street to Maxwell Court?

MILLER: Maxwellton Court, there by the College of the Bible, uh, off of Limestone.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: It's one of the streets up there. Uh, yeah, I--it just--it dwindled. I guess the--the population started diminishing and--and, uh, just wasn't enough--that--they started another fraternity. I can't remember which one it was. Jewish fraternity. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: Was it A-E-Pi [Alpha Epsilon Pi]?

MILLER: No, it was Phi something or other, but--

FERNHEIMER: --okay--

MILLER: --I think, but I can't remember. I think maybe Alan Stine was in that, but I--was in there, but I can't remember what it was, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: It's--Phi Delta Phi, that's a sorority, isn't it? Yeah. Or Phi Sigma something, I don't know. I can't remember, but--

FERNHEIMER: I'll ask.

MILLER: --the sorority went out of existence a lot sooner than the fraternity did.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. They never had a house--

MILLER: No.

FERNHEIMER: --and so--

MILLER: No, I think most of the girls lived in Jewell Hall, but--

FERNHEIMER: Jewell Hall?

MILLER: Uh-huh. Was there on--on, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Any other advice?

MILLER: ------(??)

FERNHEIMER: Besides starting a fraternity, or maybe a sorority?

MILLER: Uh, well, you know, I--[just to?]--I mean, I like what I hear that they're doing with the Hillel. Uh, I think that needs to be pushed.

FERNHEIMER: Why is that so important?

MILLER: Well, because it--as it exists now, that's the only Jewish, uh, activity on campus, far as I know. And--and, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And that's important?

MILLER: --you know, besides your--besides your program, of course, but--(laughter)--but, I mean, you know, that's--that--that, uh, that you generally look at in relation to sociological standpoint. And I, you know, I think it's--I think it's important, uh, in particular at that age to--to have something that you can, uh, hold onto or tie your--your know, tie your string 01:21:00around, uh, as a--you know, as a Jewish student. And, yeah, I think they probably--and I don't know if that's true or not, but I--my guess is that there are probably some Jewish students on campus that belong to other--that belong to fraternities and sororities that, in the past, did not have that. Um, but it's not the same, you know? It's--it's, uh--and it--uh, there's a--there's a fellah here in town who is not Jewish who was a ZBT someplace else, I don't know where he was. I can't remember. Uh, he used to work for me at the county attorney's office. Uh, but, uh, um, you know, I--I just--uh, you know, I think that it's--it's--it's important that there be some--something that--that they can 01:22:00associate each--with each other--with, and--and, uh, you know, that's why it's nice to--to have the Hillel, because there's nothing else that you can go to where there's other males and females [and?] ------(??) in together, individually and together, uh, on--on campus. And I just think that's terribly important.

FERNHEIMER: And the social component, the--

MILLER: Yeah, I mean, it's--especially in today's day and time, uh, you know?

FERNHEIMER: Well, you've already started to talk a little bit about the ways that Jewishness figured in your adult life after ZBT and after your time at UK, um, being president of the temple and advising the youth group and being the regional advisor. Were there other ways that you were involved with the Jewish community after college?

MILLER: Well--

FERNHEIMER: That--that already--

MILLER: --I was--

FERNHEIMER: --seems pretty impressive.

MILLER: Well, I was--I was one of the early presidents of what is now, uh, uh, 01:23:00Federation, before it was Federation, but I was--

FERNHEIMER: What was it called then? Central--

MILLER: Central Kentucky Jewish Association. And that's--uh, it's sort of a joke around--the people who were here at the time. Uh, I was opposed to creating CKJF [Central Kentucky Jewish Federation] initially.

FERNHEIMER: Because?

MILLER: I just didn't think there was any need for that sort of thing. Uh, and I changed my mind. Uh, we have meeting--we have meetings, [and--and now]--I guess it was when I was president. [It was to have?]--uh, but I would go to meetings and we would sit there and people would talk about it and the need for it and, you know, and what it should do and what it could do. And I changed my mind. And when we were talking about, uh, what a name should be, [it--you know, it?] ended up being CKJF. People thought they would call it JACK, Jewish 01:24:00Association of Central Kentucky. But the acronym JACK--(laughter)--that was a joke. But they--but that's what the--you know? (laughs) It's because of--you know, because of my initial, uh, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Reluctance, or--

MILLER: --reluctance to have such a--

FERNHEIMER: What changed your mind?

MILLER: I think that it was at a point in time when there was a need for--association between the different entities of the Jewish community.

FERNHEIMER: So, there was a--

MILLER: Together.

FERNHEIMER: --a need for an institutional--

MILLER: Inst--yeah, institutional kind of thing, you know?

FERNHEIMER: Uh--

MILLER: You know, it's one thing to have the temple and it's one thing to have the synagogue. It's one thing to have whatever the--Havarah that is now 01:25:00existing but it wasn't then. But, you know, it--it's the--the bringing together--you know, probably the only thing that we would do, even in those days, together, was have the service at the cemetery between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, you know? When the two rabbis would--would lead--(laughs)--the, uh, service at the cemetery. Uh, and I think that the people who were in favor showed me that this is the kind of stuff that needs to be expanded on. Uh, never thought that I would see the day that we had so many of the--so many programs--which I think is great, by the way--between the--

FERNHEIMER: Through the Federation--

MILLER: --but--no, no, between--

FERNHEIMER: Shared--

MILLER: --between--

FERNHEIMER: --between the--

MILLER: --the congregations, and Federation. Um, you know, and I--you know, I 01:26:00just think that--yeah, sometimes I think maybe--because of the continuity between the congregations is so good that maybe it's outlived its existence--its need for Federation.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

MILLER: I--I don't--I'm--I'm not saying that it has, but, you know, it's--it's--the initial reason for having it may not be the same thing that we need as a central point of having it now, [I mean?]--

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, as communities evolve--

MILLER: Right.

FERNHEIMER: --institutions evolve.

MILLER: Right. I mean, of course, that--the problem with that is that you're talking about whoever is here at this congregation and who's at this congregation, you know? That could--they could end up being at loggerheads with each other and then never--you know, so, but I don't anticipate that happening. But, I mean, what we have now is, uh, I think is going to be very, uh, 01:27:00progressive, uh, you know, 'cause Rabbi Wirtschafter's prior connection with the synagogue and with the community--uh, through his family, of course, but--'cause he was too young when he was here, but, uh, you know, I--it's--it's, uh, you know, it's there with him. And--and I think that, uh, you know, uh, I mean, his--his mother, as I'm sure you know, is one of the founders of--of, uh, Camp Shalom. Uh, or was one of the--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

MILLER: --and is--and this--in--initiating forces within it when they were here. Um, so, you know, and--and I think that--you know, I--well--well, I'm not [going to just?] get to that point--(laughter)--but, you know, I just think that--who--who--the--that the--Rabbi [Smolkin?] is--is a very outgoing kind of 01:28:00person, and I think Rabbi Wirtschafter's going to be that same sort of person. And I--I think that it will only be great for the two congregations and for the Jewish community in--in general.

FERNHEIMER: You--in your many roles over the years, what--what--I guess, um, I'm trying to formulate a question. I'm not doing a very good job of it.

MILLER: [That's?]--

FERNHEIMER: Uh, you--you've seen the communities evolve a lot.

MILLER: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Um, and it--what you've been describing is this very separate--uh, [it's almost?] separate, uh, socially between the temple and the synagogue that there was a need for a third institution to be formed, the Central Kentucky Jewish Federation, that--if--am I understanding correctly that part of the impetus for that was to form a space where the communities could come together?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Um, and as you've been talking right now about the sort of contemporary scene--

MILLER: Oh, I'm not saying that it ought to be done away with.

FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh.

MILLER: [Okay?], I'm not--you know, I don't want to come across as that. I'm just saying that--that, um--and, you know, and I think they do--I think programmatically, uh, I think that--that the, uh, federation is--is making available, uh, programs that, uh, can further, uh, the association with everybody who is Jewish in the community--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

MILLER: --which is, uh, which is--has got to be important. And, you know, and as--you know, knock on wood, uh, we haven't seen the--in Lexington, uh, we have not seen the, uh, viral, uh, anti-Semitism here that you've seen in a lot of 01:30:00other communities.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

MILLER: Uh, and I--and I think that--I think that's because, uh, we have, as a community, have made available contact between these groups that might, uh, be, uh, directed in those directions. That's--not very good way to say it. But, uh, you know, I--I think that--uh, I know when Rabbi [Kline?] was here and I--you know, I don't--haven't seen yet about, uh--uh, Rabbi Wirtschafter, I don't know what his feelings are in--in relation to the, um, uh, Middle Eastern 01:31:00religions in--you know, in this community. Rabbi Kline was very, um, active in--in, uh, working with and having, uh, uh, some of the, uh, people from the, uh, uh, Muslim community into the temple, and he went to their--and--and I think that those kinds of contacts, uh, are important in order to maintain the stability that, uh, to this point we have been very fortunate to have.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

MILLER: Uh, so, I--you know, I--I--uh, you know, uh, I think we need to know about everybody, you know? And--and, uh, when I say everybody, I mean all the 01:32:00different segments in this community that--that can be divisive. Uh, I mean, we've had--I know at the temple, we've had, uh, um, uh, the head of, uh, opera department at university--black gentleman, I can't remember what his name is. But, uh, he and his choir have been to the temple and sang, uh, and, uh, you know, I think that's good, you know? Because there's an involvement with a segment of the community. Um, and--and I think we've got to be aware of--of real life, you know? That's--that's--that's one of the things I think is great about having, uh, young rabbinical leaderships, uh, because I think that, you 01:33:00know, regardless of how strict or liberal or conservative or whatever that you--what term you want to be--is--of the individuals who are in leadership positions, whether they be rabbinical or lay, uh, uh, I think that the more we are open, the better this community will be as--as far as we're concerned, you know? I--we can't stop blacks or whites or whatever it might be killing the other, you know--we can't stop that. Uh, uh, but we can make it so that it does not focus on us, if that makes any sense. I--you know--

FERNHEIMER: Can you--tell me a little bit more about that. I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

MILLER: Well, uh, well, well, what--saying is that I think that the more we're--the more we are open to discussions with the various groups, whatever 01:34:00that might be, whether it be religious or, uh, economic or--or, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, race--I don't know what other term you use--that that will make--of course, there--always potential splinter individuals, but, uh, I think it will make it less--less, uh, open to antagonism, uh, between those groups and us, if that makes--if that makes any sense. I'm, uh--

FERNHEIMER: I think I understand what you're getting at. Um, sort of the more, uh, exposure--

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --it sounds like--

MILLER: Right.

FERNHEIMER: --to different groups and ideas, um, the better it is for the 01:35:00Jewish community?

MILLER: Yes, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Is that a--

MILLER: Right, I--you know, and that's what I--I'm looking at it from that standpoint that, you know, uh, sure, it's better for the individuals, too, to be able to be more open. But I'm talking about just as far as a group is concerned.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

MILLER: Uh, [am I?] suggesting maybe [you will?] have to go out and march for somebody? No, I'm not suggesting that is necessarily--uh, you can if you want to. Uh, that's an individual choice. But I'm talking about from the--from a group standpoint, uh--

FERNHEIMER: So, you're making a distinction between the Jewish community as a--as a collectivity and individual--

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --Jewish members--

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --of that community.

MILLER: Yeah. I mean, you're--you're never going to have unanimity about any of it. I mean, heaven forbid you should talk about politics--(laughs)--you know? (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Um, well, that--you've kind of touched a little bit on this, but, um, how--how would you describe the changes in the Jewish community that you've 01:36:00witnessed during the time that you've been here? And, you know, you have quite a--a good stretch to--to think about--

MILLER: Well, I think that--for the most part, I think that everybody--no, that's--that won't--that's too--I don't like that word. I think that for the most part, uh, I've seen more openness, um, as to--in--to be inclusive, uh, of everybody in the community, as opposed to being exclusive. Uh, you know, I--even though it's a synagogue or a temple program, I think it is open to the 01:37:00Jewish community. And I think that's--that's something that I wouldn't have seen growing up here, you know? It's a--it's--it's a much more inclusive community than it was eighty years ago, seventy years ago, you know? Uh--

FERNHEIMER: And why do you think that is?

MILLER: (laughs) I think that growing up, uh, we have seen so many changes in this world. Um, I think that our--our leadership, whether it be rabbinic or lay 01:38:00is much more liberal--and I don't mean that from a religious standpoint--much more open--

FERNHEIMER: --mm--

MILLER: --to inclusiveness. Um, I think maybe it begins on a social standpoint, uh, where Johnny and Harry, who belong to two different congregations, are friends because they went to school together, because they--you know, whatever it might be. And they--it--it spreads, you know? And--and I think that this is probably the biggest change in this community, you 01:39:00know? You know, forget how--you know, sure, the Reform movement has--has moved more towards the center. And sure, the Conservative movement has moved more to the center. Um, sure, there are members of the--each of the congregations who are di--you know, diametrically opposed to each other--each other, within their own community, [with?] their own congregations. But, from the standpoint of--of inclusiveness, I think that we have seen such an openness that I would never have believed, growing up, would have occurred.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

MILLER: Yeah, I've said--you know, and I know--now, you know, and I plead guilty--have said, you know, they're nothing but a bunch of--you know, [over 01:40:00here?], you know? And I know there are people that have said the same thing over here, you know, going this way. I can tell you that part of my change in attitude had to do with my wife. You know, she was not--yeah, I mean, when she first came to town, she taught Sunday school at the synagogue. After we got married, at one point she taught the class, you know, at every [place?]. I mean, you know, at the temple. But I've seen--you know, I've seen this--this difference--I look at--I look at one differently than I did forty years ago, you 01:41:00know? Sure, the world has changed, but so have I, you know? Yeah, you know, sometimes I'm not as comfortable at one--at, you know, at--you know, but--you know, I don't know--I don't--you know, I don't know Hebrew, you know? (laughs) You know, I can--I--I can--you know, I get--I probably could--never had a bar mitzvah if Susan hadn't bugged me. Not bugged me, that's not the right word. But hadn't done--been so helpful to me in learning to read the Hebrew, you know? I'd never thought about reading Hebrew, you know? And, you know, and John--and our--the--the temple--and I don't--I know there's been a change at the synagogue of the--of the, uh, prayer books--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

MILLER: --uh, at the temple. They're on their--their third or fourth change. The latest one, which I' m not knowing, the red, is much more gender neutral. 01:42:00Uh, but when--when--in the old Union prayer book, you know, yeah, there'd be some Hebrew in there, and occasionally [it'd] be read. But, like I said, we didn't have bar mitzvah or bat mitzvahs, you know? Confirmation, uh, I don't remember if we had to read any Hebrew or not, but--

FERNHEIMER: Mostly in English.

MILLER: --probably, you know, maybe the prayers before the--before and after the reading of the Torah. But, uh, you know, I--I think that there's been such a--an--there's such an openness in this community. I can't tell you about other places. But in this community, that--is--is heartwarming to see, you know? Uh--

FERNHEIMER: Can I shift the conversation a little bit?

MILLER: Sure.

FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about how your Jewishness is different from that of your parents?

MILLER: Oh--(laughs)--I'll--we have, uh, uh, so, when the kids are here, in particular, you know, we give presents for--for, uh, Chanukah. Uh, you know, uh, light--we don't always light the candles, because it's just the two of us, so--you know, we don't always do that. But we have the menorahs in the house. I don't think we had a menorah at our house growing up. I may be wrong, but I don't remember one. Uh, so, I--you know, I think that the--you know, I just--I just think that that's--um, I'm much more religious, I--uh, in some ways. Yeah, 01:44:00I--I'm not necessarily as religious as--uh, maybe I might want to be, but I don't go to services that often. I haven't been to the services at temple in some time. Uh, I go, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Has it changed over the years?

MILLER: Huh?

FERNHEIMER: Your relationship to Judaism, has it changed? Or how has it changed over the years?

MILLER: Well--

FERNHEIMER: You mentioned your wife as a kind of key moment.

MILLER: Yeah. I mean, I--I think that's true, I--you know, and--and, um, I listen more at services when I'm there. I--you know, I--my--I have--my attention span is never really very good. Um, but I--I find in myself--you know, in particular when the rabbis are talking, whether, you know, a sermon or--or whatever it might be, get--you know, talking about it, a prayer or 01:45:00whatever they might be talking about it--as some--you know, I will--I may not remember all what they said, but I tend to listen to 'em more than--than I did. Um, you know, I--I--I'm much less likely--well, 'cause I don't wear a watch that often anymore. But I'm much more likely not to be looking to see, you know, is it time--about time for the service to be over, um, then I used to be, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And if--you have children?

MILLER: One.

FERNHEIMER: One. It--how--you--one son?

MILLER: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: And how is your relationship to Jewish identity and practice compared to his?

MILLER: Oh, well, mine is much more. Uh, he married a non-Jewish girl. Uh, he--he joined the temple here, uh, so that he can go to services in New York, 01:46:00uh, without joining the congregation up there. Uh, but I think that probably for the High Holidays is the only time he'll go to services up there. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: And his children?

MILLER: Well, nothing yet. I don't know what's--

FERNHEIMER: They're still pretty small, right?

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Three and--

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --one or--

MILLER: [I mean?], he's--uh, you know, I don't know what's going to happen, and I--you know, uh, I think that they're not going to push any particular religion. Uh, they were married by--there's a group, apparently, in New York of clergy that will marry anybody. You know, different things. Well, it--they--they interviewed--and this one--the one that they end up choosing was a woman who had 01:47:00been Jewish. She converted to some non-Jewish religion. And then she has converted back to Judaism, so that the--(laughs)--so that the service, they did several of the--they--they broke the glass and they did--she did--they did prayers, you know, the Jewish prayers, and--uh, so, I mean, it was a--I mean, I don't think they ever talked about Jesus. I may be wrong, but I didn't hear it. But, uh, but it was--you know, they had some of the Christian stuff in there, you know? But it was a--it was a--it was that sort of a--a, uh, wedding. Uh, it was non-denominational sort of thing, but, um, but included everybody. So, 01:48:00you know, we'll just have to wait and see how that turns out.

FERNHEIMER: How would you say where you grew up and lived your adult life here in Kentucky has affected your Jewish identity or your relationship with Judaism?

MILLER: Oh, I think that growing up in a community this size, it probably is more than would have happened if I would--grown up in a bigger community, uh, because of the need for the relational situation, you know, [would?]--having a group--you know, if--if I was--if I was Jewish and it was just--if there was no congregation involved, it would have been very difficult to--for me to go to churches with--you know, because I need someplace to go. Uh, so, I--you know, I 01:49:00think that growing up here, uh, while--albeit, it was a small, uh--it was very, um, big, if that makes any sense. I mean, it was--it was a focal--I mean, all of my parents' friends were Jewish, or most of them. Um, and most of their association was, you know, outside of work, uh, [where?] my father was--was, uh--from a social standpoint was Jewish. Um, and, uh, I mean, there was never any question they were Jewish, you know, even though we had Christmas. Uh, it was just something that everybody did, you know? It was no big deal, you know?

FERNHEIMER: Christmas or--

MILLER: Yeah. I mean, it wasn't--we didn't celebrate the birth of Christ, you know? It was--it was a holiday, you know? Everybody celebrates Christmas, you know? I mean, that's just the way it was.

FERNHEIMER: Like Thanksgiving.

MILLER: Yeah. I mean, we--our--we had--my parents had friends down the street who were Jewish. We would go down to their house and decorate their Christmas tree Christmas Eve, you know? You know, it was--that's just things that--at least the people that my parents were around did that. You know, I mean, it's--yeah, no, it's not Jewish. But it wasn't something that was anti-Jewish. It was just another holiday.

FERNHEIMER: Is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to share?

MILLER: (laughs) I can't imagine--(laughs)--uh, you know, I--it's a--you know, 01:51:00I'm--I'm--it--I'm glad to--have been able to do this, because, you know, it--it--the [folks--uh, it?]--I got to look back at some of the things that--uh, you know, that you were going to talk about that I might not have gone back and re--re--looked at.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

MILLER: Yeah. I--you know, it's a--I don't have--I don't have the vivid memory that some people have about their--you know, like about at UK and that kind of stuff of--but, uh, to me, the things that are important, I remember, you know? And--and at least the things that are important to me, I remember. And--and, uh, you know, it's just like the--the different activities and things. You know, uh, and everything wasn't--don't get me wrong, everything wasn't 01:52:00hunky-dory, both--you know, at the--the temple and all that kind of stuff. There was--there was a lot of struggles, a lot of bad feelings that went on over the period of time. Um, and--and some pretty harsh things went on. But, uh, those things show--do pass, you know? And--and, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Anything in particular that you--

MILLER: --uh, that--

FERNHEIMER: --recall?

MILLER: Yeah, but I'm not going to talk about it. (laughs) Well, it--it's--it's--we had some difficulties over--over--over, uh, employee hiring and maintaining--and, uh, some people got to the point that they even left the 01:53:00congregation because of it. Uh, most of those people have come back. You know, the--the Havarah started, initially, as a result of the, uh, inability of women to participate in--in services. People left the synagogue because of that and started the Havarah. Most of those people have come back and joined both--still--keep both places, and some don't, uh, you know. And some just belong to that for whatever reason and not belong to either of the congregations. But, you know, everything isn't always--you know, you can't expect everything to--to--to operate, um, without problems. I mean, life--

FERNHEIMER: --yeah--

MILLER: --isn't that great, you know, to--for that to happen.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

MILLER: Uh, I wished it did. But, you know, and--and--and within the Jewish community, it's--it's the same thing. Yeah, you know, uh, uh, you know, and--and, you know, it--it was at one point when they were talking about joining the two congregations, we were--the--the temple bought a piece of property [out on Mount Table?] Road that was going to be used for a new temple. Uh, didn't happen. They sold it and made--profit on it, but, uh, it--you know, things--things change and things come back, you know? And--and, uh, uh, I--you know, I--I--for me, you know, I said it before, I think, but from a rabbinical standpoint, I think that I can't remember a time that both congregations have--have young, vibrant leadership. And--and I say young. To me, everybody's 01:55:00young, but--(laughs)--you know? But, uh, it--it--I think that it's--it's a--a--it's a--it's an encouraging situation, for--for the community of Lexington--

FERNHEIMER: --oh--

MILLER: --and central Kentucky, you know? I--I just, uh--I--I--I--you know, I'm--I'm--I'm very happy for it, uh, and, you know, at some point in time, I--maybe I'll start going back to--to services. (laughter) But, um, uh, I'm--I'm at a--I'm at an age where I'm one of these--the senior members now, so--(laughs)--um, you know, and--and that's--well, just let me finish this one thing and--

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

MILLER: Uh, we have a group that--that--that you probably heard about from some of these other people. But, uh, we're called the, uh, whatever ------(??) 01:56:00called, I can't think what we're called. But we have a group of fellahs that have lunch, uh, on--on--every Friday at different restaurants. And, um, it's fun. You know, it's a--it's a Jewish group at--you know, and--and Earl comes. Uh, but he's the only, as far as I--think, the only non-temple member that--that comes to the--to lunch. But, it's--

FERNHEIMER: Is it most--

MILLER: --it's certainly not keeping people out, uh, you know? It--um--

FERNHEIMER: Who else participates? I've heard a little bit about the lunch bunch.

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Does Mike [Adees?] go?

MILLER: No.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

MILLER: Yeah, I don't--I can't remember if Mike--[though?], see, Mike's still working, I think, so, uh, but I'll--it's--it's, uh--

FERNHEIMER: So, it's mostly retirees?

MILLER: Yeah, yeah, most--for the most part. I mean, Earl still works, but, uh, uh, I think, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Is there a president of the lunch bunch?

MILLER: No. (laughter) No. We vote every time--every Friday where we're going to go the next Friday. (laughs) It's a very--very democratic, with a small D, group. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: How big is lunch bunch?

MILLER: Oh, we usually have between eight and ten, eleven people.

FERNHEIMER: And what are the types of restaurants you frequent?

MILLER: Oh, we go--I mean, we go to Olive Garden, we go to the--uh, we go to a Mexican--restaurants, we go to Mandarin Chinese, we go to another Chinese, we go to--uh, uh, [was a?] steak place out there. Long something or long--Longhorn, uh, we go to Golden Corral, you know? We--we--we pretty much cross the--the, 01:58:00uh, town on place, and we try not to go downtown, 'cause there's no place to park. But, uh, we're--we're pretty open to almost anything. We go to the new places that--uh, somebody's always gone to 'em and, uh, uh, [is the?]--

FERNHEIMER: And is--

MILLER: --place there in front of [South Christian?] Church on Richmond Road. I can't remember what the name of that is. [Nelly's?] or--forget--I can't remember the name of it. We went there once and, uh, we went to [Koba?] once and--so, we've been--we go to all kinds of places.

FERNHEIMER: And it's mostly a social club?

MILLER: Oh, yeah, that's all it is. We just get together and chitchat. We--12:30 to 1:30-ish, you know? Thereabouts.

FERNHEIMER: Who--who--so, it's you, Earl--

MILLER: Marty, uh, [Bill Gemlen?], uh, uh, Dave--uh, Dan--uh, not Dan--yeah, Dan [Ayuris?], uh, uh, Marty, uh--

FERNHEIMER: More than one Marty?

MILLER: --Marty Kaplan.

FERNHEIMER: Oh.

MILLER: Uh, there's--there's three or--you know, there's--there's ------(??)

FERNHEIMER: Some other gentleman.

MILLER: Jerry--Jerry, you know, Jerry Wormser, as well. He comes and, uh, Harold Maker used to come, uh, and what's his name? Uh, I can't even remember what his name is now. Passed away. But, uh, he used to--belonged to the Havarah, so he used to come and--and, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Ned? Not Ned. I don't know that many names--

MILLER: [That?]--no, I can't [remember, but?]--

FERNHEIMER: --from the Havarah.

MILLER: But, uh, you know, we--it's a--it's just fun, you know, just to--go to the Good Foods co-op sometimes and--

FERNHEIMER: Nice. And--well, you wanted to make sure you included that before 02:00:00we conclude, so--

MILLER: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --tell me why, and then, uh--

MILLER: [Yeah, well?], why? Because it's Jewish and--but it's--we don't talk about religion very--yeah, we do talk about Israel some, but, uh, it's--it's--it's just fun to just--for no reason at all except to socialize, and it--uh, they have--you know, sometimes we go to lunch at the temple when they have that, uh--I can never pronounce it, but the luncheon on--seniors on--[or in the?]--uh, Fridays, you know? Uh, once a month. So, I mean, you know, we--we--it's just a--it's a--it's a Jewish--but it's a--it's a fun--just time--just to--us old folks to get together. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Well, I'm glad that you mentioned it and that we have it on the 02:01:00record, 'cause I've--

MILLER: Yeah. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: --been hearing little bits about it here and there. (laughter) Uh, but, um, I want to thank you for spending your afternoon with me--

MILLER: ------(??)

FERNHEIMER: --talking about all these different social organizations, um, and I hope that it would be okay, if we have some follow-up questions, that we--

MILLER: Sure.

FERNHEIMER: --send someone back up to--

MILLER: No problem.

FERNHEIMER: --meet with you. But thanks again, Jack. I really appreciate your--

MILLER: My pleasure.

FERNHEIMER: --time.

MILLER: Oh, my pleasure.

FERNHEIMER: Um--

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