Interview with Erle Levy, August 19, 2015

FERNHEIMER: So before we get officially started, I'm going to say that today is August 19th, 2015. And my name is Janice Fernheimer and I am associate professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies and director of Jewish studies. And it is my great honor and pleasure to be interviewing Erle Levy as part of the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project. Uh, and so even though I just said your name, I'm hoping that you will, uh, help me out by stating your name at birth.

LEVY: My name at birth was Erle Levy. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. And when and where were you born?

LEVY: Uh, January 4th, 1934, Good Samaritan Hospital, Lexington, Kentucky.

FERNHEIMER: January 4th, 1934, right here in Lexington.

LEVY: Right.

FERNHEIMER: And what were your parents' names and occupations?

LEVY: Uh, my mother's name was Pauline, middle name Gall, that was her maiden 00:01:00name, uh, Levy, Pauline Levy. My father was Hyman Vernon Levy.

FERNHEIMER: Vernon?

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: V-E-R-N-A-N?

LEVY: N-O-N, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And did you have brothers and sisters?

LEVY: I have a sister, B-- Barbara. But we called her Bobbie. Nobody calls her Barbara.

FERNHEIMER: Bobbie I-E or Bobby Y?

LEVY: B-O-B-B-I-E.

FERNHEIMER: And how old is she relative to you? When was she born?

LEVY: She was born four years later, '59. F-- '59.

FERNHEIMER: Thirty-nine?

LEVY: Thirty-eight.

FERNHEIMER: Thirty-eight, okay.

LEVY: (laughs) I'm sorry.

FERNHEIMER: That's okay. Uh, and what were your parents' occupations? What did your parents--

LEVY: --my mother was a stay-at-home mom and my father when I was born was in the poultry business.

FERNHEIMER: Here in town?

LEVY: Yes, on Vine Street, uh[MC1].

FERNHEIMER: Who--who was he in business with?

LEVY: Just himself. He called it City Poultry. It was just a few years but--maybe five or six years, seven years.

FERNHEIMER: And were your parents, uh, the first ones to live in Lexington or did you have family that came to the US before that?

LEVY: My grandparents on my mother's side lived here, the Galls, Phillip--Phillip and Rose Gall. My--my father's mother died about a year after I was born and his father was in Winchester, Kentucky. Prior to that he was on a farm somewhere outside of Winchester.

FERNHEIMER: So your family goes back to Kentucky quite a ways.

LEVY: Yeah. Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Do you--who was--who was the first one to move here? Do you know?

LEVY: Well, on my mother's side he came around in the teens, fif-- fif-- '15, 00:03:001915, '16.

FERNHEIMER: This was your mother's father.

LEVY: Father. Father.

FERNHEIMER: Father's father?

LEVY: My mother's father.

FERNHEIMER: And his name was?

LEVY: Phillip Gall.

FERNHEIMER: Phillip Gall.

LEVY: And my grandmother, I don't know what--she grew up in Baltimore. And how they met I'm not too sure. (laughs) I probably was told but I've forgotten if--

FERNHEIMER: --but she came here with him.

LEVY: She--

FERNHEIMER: --or she came to be with him.

LEVY: I guess so, yes, right. Her last name, she was a Scher.

FERNHEIMER: She was.

LEVY: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Hm.

LEVY: And, uh.

FERNHEIMER: My family is Scher.

LEVY: We may be related. Never can tell.

FERNHEIMER: S-C-H-E-R?

LEVY: S-C, uh, S-C-H-E-R. They were in Baltimore.

FERNHEIMER: Mine were in DC. We'll have to follow up on this.

LEVY: Well, that's close, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: What was her name?

LEVY: Rose.

FERNHEIMER: Rose Scher. And so she married Phillip and moved here roughly--do 00:04:00you know when they moved? No?

LEVY: No.

FERNHEIMER: Okay[MC2]. Uh, and your father's father was living in Winchester?

LEVY: Yeah, Udell Levy.

FERNHEIMER: What's his name?

LEVY: Udell.

FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that?

LEVY: U-D-E-L-L.

FERNHEIMER: And anyone before that?

LEVY: No. And their name was Versvovsky but they were Levites so they changed their name to Levy. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Can you spell Versvovsky for me?

LEVY: I just--V-E-R. It's a C in there. C-H-O-V maybe. I-S-K-Y. Something like that.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, so they changed their name when they moved to Kentucky or when they came to the US?

LEVY: Yeah. When they came to the US.

FERNHEIMER: And where did they come from?

LEVY: They came from--my--on my--on my father's side, uh, they came from 00:05:00Russia. From the Ukraine.

FERNHEIMER: Okay[MC3].

LEVY: And on my grandfather's side he was somewhere near there. I can't remember. Some other Russian--(laughs)--town.

FERNHEIMER: And your mother's side?

LEVY: My m-- mother's side, that's what I'm talking about.

FERNHEIMER: Oh okay.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So your mother's side came from Russia.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And your father's side.

LEVY: Poland.

FERNHEIMER: Poland. So you grew up here in Lexington.

LEVY: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Can you describe your childhood to me? Where'd you go to school? Uh, what did you do? Where did you live?

LEVY: Okay. We lived, uh, Ridgeway Road was the second house. First house was on a street called Shropshire Boulevard, which is somewhere off of, uh, 00:06:00Limestone. But I don't know if it's there anymore. And then they moved to Ridgeway when I was maybe a year old. And, uh, then moved down onto Fontaine. And then business got bad and we had to move in over my grandparents, the Galls, on the second floor of their duplex.

FERNHEIMER: Also on Fontaine.

LEVY: On Fontaine.

FERNHEIMER: Right. If I recall correctly we just drove past them.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: One was 1332.

LEVY: Yeah, 13--and 1320 or 1312, something like that.

FERNHEIMER: That was where your grandparents lived.

LEVY: Yeah. On my mother's side.

FERNHEIMER: On your mother's side.

LEVY: On my grand-- on my father's side they were in Winchester.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. And so on your--on your mother's side it was the poultry.

LEVY: No, my father's.

FERNHEIMER: That was your father's side.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: I'm sorry.

LEVY: My father had a poultry and his brother also sold poul-- had another place that they--they were in--they were in--they were competitors.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, really.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And so what was w-- the s-- one store was located in Winchester?

LEVY: No.

FERNHEIMER: No.

LEVY: Both of them here.

FERNHEIMER: Both here in Lexington.

LEVY: Both of--both of them on Vine Street. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Both on Vine Street.

LEVY: One block apart.

FERNHEIMER: And so--

LEVY: --but one sold mostly the--the b-- uncle sold mostly wholesale and sold to people that, uh, restaurants and things like that. And my father sold both retail and wholesale and eggs. Fact, when I was five or six, I was taken down there to--they used to put a--have a can and a light inside of it with a hole in the can and you held the egg up to it to make sure it was still good. There wasn't anything in it. And then if it was good you put it in the thing and they're selling the eggs retail.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. So your--your father's store was called--remind me again the name. And your uncle's store was--had a different name.

LEVY: Uh, I don't remember what his, uh, gr-- the uncle's, uh, name of it.

FERNHEIMER: What period of time was this roughly that they had the stores?

LEVY: Uh, th-- thir-- late thirties and forties, during the war, part-- partly during the war. Mostly thirties. Then in the forties my father sold his business and went into the restaurant business on Main Street next to the Strand Theatre. Was called the Barbecue restaurant. It's an interesting story if you want to hear it.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I do. I don't--

LEVY: --what--

FERNHEIMER: --where was the Strand Theatre? That's a va--

LEVY: --Strand Theatre was across the street from where used to be the railroad station. It, uh, in the block between Lime and Rose.

FERNHEIMER: Between Lime and Rose. Okay. So right at the cornerstone of 00:09:00campus now really.

LEVY: Uh, well, downtown though on Main Street.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Okay.

LEVY: Between Lime and Rose.

FERNHEIMER: Oh okay. So that's where the railroad station used to be.

LEVY: Yes. Railroad station was right there on Main Street.

FERNHEIMER: And so you were going to tell me an interesting story.

LEVY: Uh, the trains from Fort Knox would come through the station th-- through here and many times the train would stop and the soldiers that were on there would have to get off and get something to eat. Well, the restaurant was right across the street from the train station.

FERNHEIMER: This was the Barbecue restaurant.

LEVY: Yes. So when he--some of them--about three block--two blocks up was a wholesale meat place. And my father had a deal with the man who owned it who I don't remember his name. Uh, to sell him chickens. He was out--he was out of 00:10:00the poultry business but he'd made connections with this fellow and didn't want to have to pay, uh, taxes on it. So I had a little red wagon that you pull and he'd have me go down there. Now this was--what was I? Seven, eight, nine years old, during the war, and I had a little red wagon. I'd roll it up Main Street to the place and they'd load it up with chickens and I'd cover it with a rug or blanket and roll it back down to the Barbecue restaurant. That was my job. D-- I'd do it about twice a day when he knew he had a train coming. He had a friend who was in the, uh, what'd you call it? Like sold radios and appliances and--and the beginning of TV sets but they were not, you know, little screens, little round ones. And he--he had a, uh, place that he had taken this, uh, 00:11:00instrument or machine out of where you used to sit in a booth and you'd put a nickel in and play a song in each booth. And it would come on as, you know, depending on who put the nickel in first. Each one had the name of about eight songs.

FERNHEIMER: So this was like an early jukebox.

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. And then but we didn't have a jukebox. Now you got to realize I didn't even know what the hell I was doing. I was between age eight and ten I guess or eleven. And he had me--when he knew a train was coming, it would always be in the evening or after school. So I'd catch a bus, go downtown. And my job was he had a record player in the back of the restaurant. It w-- the restaurant was about this big. And he had a--somebody would put a nickel in there in the box. And it wouldn't play because there wasn't a real jukebox.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs)

LEVY: They would come up to my mother at the cash register and say, "Hey, I put a nickel in and--and, uh, it didn't play." And she said, "Well, what did you put the nickel in for?" And one of the songs was by the Andrews Sisters. So somebody would holler out, "Erle, Andrews Sisters." And I would take the record and put it on a phonograph.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs)

LEVY: And it would play. So there were about six records. My job was every time somebody said, "I put--I put a nickel in, I didn't get my song." I had to put that song on. And they got their money's worth but it was a big task to--and people never did catch on. But, uh.

FERNHEIMER: So you were an early DJ.

LEVY: An early DJ, yeah. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So this is all during the time when you were a schoolboy. Were--

LEVY: --right, I was between seven and--see, 1934, 1941 to '45. So I was, uh.

FERNHEIMER: And where did you go to school during that time?

LEVY: I went to Cassidy on--on Tates Creek or, uh, Cassidy Elementary. Morton Junior High right next door. And then Henry Clay.

FERNHEIMER: And during this time can you tell me a little bit about your parents' relationship to Judaism or your family? If there were family rituals or, uh, talk to me a little bit about that.

LEVY: Well, they were--(laughs)--kind of toward between being, uh, semi-Orthodox and they were--most of my mother's friends were at the temple. So they put me in both those places. I went to Sunday school at the temple. And I went to Hebrew school at the synagogue, heder. And when we--some days we would go to temple for the first day of Rosh Hashanah, and that's all they ever did. 00:14:00And then we'd go to shul for the second day, because they had two days.

FERNHEIMER: Right.

LEVY: Yom Kippur we always went to the synagogue. It was the one on Maxwell Street.

FERNHEIMER: Right. And what was--what was heder like, uh, at the synagogue? Was--

LEVY: --it was--

FERNHEIMER: --the synagogue was Orthodox at that time? Or more Orthodox?

LEVY: Uh, no, I'd say b-- closer to Conservative but yeah, they called themselves Orthodox. There were only two or three people in each class. (laughs) Sometimes only--the only one there. And you went, uh, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. After school.

FERNHEIMER: And so this was after school.

LEVY: Yeah. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

FERNHEIMER: And what did you learn in heder?

LEVY: Hebrew. How to read Hebrew.

FERNHEIMER: And anything else?

LEVY: That's all--well, I probably did but I forgot what else, you know, a little history, a little Jewish history and things like that, and then, uh, 00:15:00about what the prayers were w-- on the holidays. And, uh.

FERNHEIMER: What was--

LEVY: --and of course you--you did that also to get your bar mitzvah. To study for the bar mitzvah later.

FERNHEIMER: And so since you were--your family went to both the temple and the synagogue, where did you do your bar mitzvah? Or--

LEVY: --I ended up being confirmed at the temple and bar mitzvahed at the synagogue.

FERNHEIMER: And did confirmation take place at age thirteen when a bar mitzvah would take place? Or was it later?

LEVY: Can't remember. I think it was later. Yeah, it was later. Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Did they even do bar mitzvah, uh, or they only did confirmation at the temple?

LEVY: No. No. The temple only did--yeah. The s-- at the shul is where the bar mitzvahs were. That was thirteen.

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember any of your schoolmates or classmates from that time, who they were?

LEVY: Jewish ones?

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

LEVY: Yeah. Uh, Alan Bloomfield. Ivan Goldfarb. Sandy Bederman. Marylin 00:16:00Bederman. Uh, Jack Miller. Uh, shoot. Wish I practiced up on. Trying to think who else. Uh, wait a minute. I'll think of her name. Her father was in the photograph business. Uh, Myra Michaels (??). Uh.

FERNHEIMER: And these were all in your class or--

LEVY: --mm. No, they--no, they weren't in my class but they were--

FERNHEIMER: --cl--

LEVY: --a year or two one way or the other. Should have practiced up on names there.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, that's okay. Uh, anything that comes to you after you can--

LEVY: --yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --let me know. That's not a problem. Uh, so tell me about your--your parents. They had--they were in both the temple and the synagogue. That's pretty--was it unusual or--

LEVY: --yeah. Well, my mother wanted me to go to temple Sunday school. And--

FERNHEIMER: --why was that important to her?

LEVY: I guess because a lot of her friends' kids were there.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

LEVY: I suppose. Uh, she never told me. My sister also went temple Sunday school but she didn't get bar mitzvahed--bat mitzvahed. So she only, uh.

FERNHEIMER: So she didn't go to heder.

LEVY: No.

FERNHEIMER: Was it only boys in heder at the time?

LEVY: Yes. All, uh, all boys. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And did your family go to--so you described they did services one day at--

LEVY: --yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --temple and one day at--

LEVY: --well, the High Holidays were both--both at the shul, at the synagogue.

FERNHEIMER: Both at the shul.

LEVY: Both days.

FERNHEIMER: What about Fridays? Or Friday--

LEVY: --sometimes it was at temple and then Saturday morning at the synagogue. Friday night at the temple and Saturday morning at the synagogue.

FERNHEIMER: And did they keep the restaurant open on the Sabbath?

LEVY: I think they did. I'm not sure but I think so.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, I'm going to ask a question about--did they have any--was there 00:18:00kosher meat or were they interested in that at--

LEVY: --no. Wasn't kosher meat. He had a friend. Uh, it was, uh, what do you call it? Meat was not available to everybody. W-- there was a, uh.

FERNHEIMER: Because of the war or--

LEVY: --yeah, because of the war. But my father had a friend that he knew from when he was in the poultry business that worked at a building that sold wholesale meat all over the state. And that guy would--that was the meat that I carried down the street some days.

FERNHEIMER: In the wagon.

LEVY: In the wagon. But not every day. Uh, I mean he--he--he brought it down sometimes. But that's how he--because hard to get red meat during the war.

FERNHEIMER: Right.

LEVY: So and this w-- restaurant was based on red meat. Hamburgers and steaks. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: The Barbecue place.

LEVY: Yeah. Barbecue. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

LEVY: It wasn't barbecued. It was just cooked in the back in the kitchen. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So they--they just used the name.

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: But it wasn't the actual barbecue. Uh, can you tell me a little bit about Judaism and your family? What was the role of Jewish tradition in your childhood or what your parents taught you about Judaism?

LEVY: I think my grandparents talked to me more than my parents did. Yeah, they--they, uh, they had us do all the holidays. And most of the meals for the holidays were at my grandmother's, uh.

FERNHEIMER: And she was in Lexington or in Winchester?

LEVY: Yeah. No, here.

FERNHEIMER: Here.

LEVY: Uh, it was, uh, my mother's mother.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: My--on my father's side my grandmother died about a year after I was born.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: And then a few years later he moved here with his daughter, Tanya Herman. She was married to a man named Nathan Herman. Tanya was the sister of my father. And they moved here.

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember what year that was?

LEVY: Uh.

FERNHEIMER: Or what brought--

LEVY: --it was in the forties. I mean like I'm not sure. It was during the war.

FERNHEIMER: What brought them to Lexington?

LEVY: The business that he was in over there didn't work out. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Huh. What was the business?

LEVY: He was in some kind of shoe business. But he didn't do it very long.

FERNHEIMER: And did he try it here in Lexington as well or no?

LEVY: He went to work for one of the place--for Brown's Bootery, which was another Levy that owned a shoe business.

FERNHEIMER: But not the same Levys.

LEVY: No. Different--different Levys. Also a Hyman Levy.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, I--from what I understand there were three Hyman Levys--

LEVY: --right--

FERNHEIMER: --in town at the time.

LEVY: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: So one was your family.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Hyman Levy. One was Chicken Hyman, w--

LEVY: --Chicken Hyman was my father.

FERNHEIMER: Chicken Hyman was your father.

LEVY: Shoe Hyman was, uh, uh, the store called Brown's Bootery on Main Street.

FERNHEIMER: So that was Shoe Hyman.

LEVY: That was Shoe Hyman. No, no, that was Fat Hyman.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs)

LEVY: Shoe Hyman w-- worked for a store called--owned by the Meyerses. And he ran the sh-- he did the shoes in their store. He was Shoe Hyman. And Hyman at, uh, Brown's Bootery was Fat Hyman.

FERNHEIMER: And the Meyerses, were they also Jewish?

LEVY: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: M-E-Y-E-R or M-E--

LEVY: --M-Y-E-R-S I think.

FERNHEIMER: M-Y-E-R-S. Uh.

LEVY: They were on Main Street. They had a high-class clothing store. High-priced I guess clothing store. In the block where Purcell's used to be.

FERNHEIMER: Where what used to be?

LEVY: Uh, used to be a department store called Purcell's. It was between Mill Street and Broadway where the Hilton is now. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: What other shops do you remember that were Jewish-owned downtown at the time?

LEVY: Oh my gosh. Let's see. There was, uh, uh, Kaufman's which was owned by the Strauses.

FERNHEIMER: And what did they sell?

LEVY: Uh, men's clothes mainly.

FERNHEIMER: And where was that?

LEVY: It was on Main Street between Upper and sh-- and Limestone. Then there was Ben Snyder's, which was at the corner of Main and Lime. Then there was Wolf Wile's.

FERNHEIMER: What did Ben Snyder's sell?

LEVY: It was a department store. They sold--

FERNHEIMER: --okay--

LEVY: --women's clothes, men's clothes, uh, everything a small depart-- a small Macy's. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: A mini Macy's?

LEVY: Very sm-- a mini Macy's, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And who owned that?

LEVY: That was, uh[MC4].

FERNHEIMER: Was that the Snyders or was that someone else?

LEVY: No. It was--oh, I know it, I can't remember. Str--

FERNHEIMER: It'll come back to you.

LEVY: Then there was Wolf Wile's.

FERNHEIMER: W-E-I-L?

LEVY: W-I-L-E-S.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. And what was that?

LEVY: That was, uh, also higher-price, uh, clothes, women's and men's clothes.

FERNHEIMER: And was that owned by Wile?

LEVY: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: Owned by the Wiles.

FERNHEIMER: And where was that? Was it the next--

LEVY: --it's in, uh, uh, same block that the Hilton is in. (laughs) Between Mill Street and Short Street. Uh, Mill Street and Broadway. Then it moved. Wolf Wile's moved up next to where the Union Station was.

FERNHEIMER: Close to the restaurant your parents owned?

LEVY: Yeah, but it was after.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: After the war. And, uh, let's see. There was another clothing store. Well, the Wennekers had a shoe store. And then the--another clothing store was mainly women's was Hymson's, H-Y-M-S-O-N-S.

FERNHEIMER: That's Evelyn and Maurice?

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And where was--where was Wenneker's and Hymson's located?

LEVY: Hymson's was in the block between Lime and, uh, the viaduct, uh, Walnut. North side of Main Street. No. South. Yeah, north side of Main Street.

FERNHEIMER: And Wenneker's?

LEVY: Wenneker's was right next door to the Strand Theatre, which is about two 00:25:00bl-- two doors down from Wolf Wile's and three doors away from the Barbecue restaurant.

FERNHEIMER: So pretty close.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: You must know that one pretty well.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: You'd take your wagon past there.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Any other shops that you recall? That's quite a bit.

LEVY: Uh, there were more.

FERNHEIMER: Did the Millers have a shop then?

LEVY: Well, there was a Miller's that had a jewelry, uh, repair place.

FERNHEIMER: Is that the same as Jack Miller or a different Miller?

LEVY: No, that's different. His father I think was a lawyer, I. J. was a lawyer.

FERNHEIMER: So the jewelry repair.

LEVY: Yeah. There were more Jewish stores. I'm trying to think who else. If I'd been prepared, uh.

FERNHEIMER: That's okay. We can come back to this.

LEVY: Okay.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, uh, uh.

LEVY: There were a whole bunch of them.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

LEVY: On Main. The Rosenbergs were on--well, depends. There were three Rosenberg f--, uh, three Rosenberg stores. They were brothers but they had 00:26:00three different stores. Or cousins.

FERNHEIMER: What kind of stores were they? W-- is one tradit--

LEVY: Well, Joe Rosenberg was on Upper Street across the street from my grandfather's pawnshop and they had a pawnshop and jewelry store. And, uh, it was on Upper between Water and Main. Between the railroad tracks and Main. And then let's see. The--another Rosenberg was where the KU building--where the--it was at Limestone and Vine Street.

FERNHEIMER: Where the utility building--

LEVY: Where the K-- k-- Kentucky Utilities was. Yes, where they tore that down.

FERNHEIMER: And what was that?

LEVY: It was a jewelry store.

FERNHEIMER: Another jewelry store.

LEVY: Right. Rosenb-- and then there was another Rosenberg on North Lime between Main and Short. So there were one, two, three Rosenbergs. But only one 00:27:00of them was in the pawn business and that's the one on Upper Street. Joe Rosenberg's parents.

FERNHEIMER: And you mentioned your grandfather was also in the pawn business.

LEVY: Yeah. That--when I was six or seven every day pawnshop had to turn in a list of people that pawned something and what it was. Well, my grandfather couldn't write English at the time. And I was only six or seven. Uh, I know I was in elementary school. And he would have me come downtown and t-- and have me write up the police report which was picked up every day. A funny thing happened there. The guy that later became chief of police was the guy who came every day and picked up the report. Or every other day and picked up the report. Later he became the chief of police.

FERNHEIMER: Who was that?

LEVY: Think it was Hale. Uh, daggone.

FERNHEIMER: It'll come to you.

LEVY: So he always later on in life would always kid me when I'd see him somewhere. Says, "You know what his first job was? Writing a police report for me, and I couldn't read it." (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: (laughs)

LEVY: "I'd have to ask him what did he write here." Uh, uh, he t-- he did that several places where I was in a group where the--he was speaking or talking or something.

FERNHEIMER: And what--what did your grandfather speak? What was his first language?

LEVY: Yiddish.

FERNHEIMER: Yiddish.

LEVY: Yeah. And he spoke English sort of, yeah, but--

FERNHEIMER: --did he, uh, did they speak Yiddish in your family?

LEVY: When they didn't want us to know what they were saying.

FERNHEIMER: Did you learn at all?

LEVY: A little but not--not a lot.

FERNHEIMER: A bissel?

LEVY: Yeah, a bissel, right.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, are there any other memories from your childhood that you'd like to share? What was school like? Uh, were there other Jewish children in your elementary school class?

LEVY: Uh, Bloomfield was the only one I think. Everybody else was in another school. (laughs) There were others but elementarywise that's all I'm going to remember. Junior high some of the girls. Trying to think who. Should have gotten prepared.

FERNHEIMER: That's all right. Do you--do you remember feeling--did you know that you were Jewish? Did you feel different? Did you--

LEVY: --oh yeah, my grandparents made sure that I felt different. Even though my mother had me go to temple Sunday school, my grandmother and grandfather said, "He's also going to get bar mitzvahed." (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Why was that so important to them?

LEVY: Guess because they were semi-Orthodox but not--not really Orthodox Orthodox w--

FERNHEIMER: --how did--sorry, go on.

LEVY: They wanted to make sure I stayed Jewish.

FERNHEIMER: That was really important to them.

LEVY: Yes. Very. My grandmother had all the holidays. And she would invite friends for each of them. And, uh, in fact when I got married that instruction she gave Sara. It's going to be your job to take care of everybody on the holidays. (laughs) And she took it very seriously. She took her--took her back in the bedroom and this is before we got married. We were engaged. Said, "I want you to understand now what you're going to get into."

FERNHEIMER: Wow. So this was your grandmother was very--

LEVY: --yeah, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So, uh, and the instructions she gave were to do holidays and--

LEVY: --do hol-- when I'm not--when I'm no longer here you invite the family for all the holidays. Cook food for them. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Wow. How many other Jewish families were at the temple and at the synagogue at the time?

LEVY: I'm not sure. I'd say--I'm not sure. Th-- there were about probably 00:31:00twenty, twenty-five kids in the Sunday school classes.

FERNHEIMER: And that was from ages what to what?

LEVY: First grade to sixth grade. Well, yeah. Sixth, how old are you? Twelve, thirteen, till you were thirteen, so yeah. Maybe till seventh grade.

FERNHEIMER: So that was at the temple.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And then at the--

LEVY: --where they confirmed.

FERNHEIMER: Right. And at synagogue was it only--it was only boys? They only did heder? Or did they do anything for girls?

LEVY: Right. No girls.

FERNHEIMER: No girls.

LEVY: At that time. Later on they did. But no, it was all boys.

FERNHEIMER: And so how many young boys were--

LEVY: Three or four in each.

FERNHEIMER: So much smaller, uh.

LEVY: Much. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And is there any particular memory that stands out to you from that time that you'd like to share about your childhood or holiday or--

LEVY: --well, I--what I remember mostly is having to go to both places for the holidays. I got, uh, uh, I would go, uh, Rosh Hashanah Eve to temple and then 00:32:00the next day to synagogue. And of course had to walk from Fontaine Road down to Maxwell Street and back. So I remember walking that long distance.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, it was probably pretty warm because--

LEVY: --uh, some days, yeah, some days it was raining. But we walked it every time.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. And, uh, uh, what were services like? Were there a lot of families in attendance at that time?

LEVY: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the--the synagogue would pretty much fill up. If you didn't get there early you'd have to stand in the back.

FERNHEIMER: And were there people standing?

LEVY: Oh yeah, for--for the h-- for the High Holidays. Not--not for Shabbos but for High Holidays.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. Is there, uh, now that we've talked a little bit about, uh, 00:33:00your childhood, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your experiences here at UK? Uh, I know--

LEVY: --came to UK in '51, 1951.

FERNHEIMER: What, uh, what made you decide to come to UK? What were your--what was your major and what were your--

LEVY: --the cost made me go to UK, because it was not very much money then. I think if I'm not--I could be wrong but I think it was about $1,200 a year, and I was living in town, so I wasn't living in the dorms.

FERNHEIMER: So you stayed with your parents.

LEVY: Yeah. I stayed home. So I'd say that's why I went to UK. (laughs) The cost.

FERNHEIMER: And what did you study here?

LEVY: Commerce, business in, uh, in White Hall.

FERNHEIMER: And what was--what was your typical day as a student like as a business student, commerce student?

LEVY: Well, you had, uh, maybe--depended on the day. Three to five classes. 00:34:00Some days more--more hours than the other. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday were more hours than Tuesday and Thursday.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Almost the exact opposite of now. Most--

LEVY: --yeah, yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --people like to study Tuesday, Thursday.

LEVY: Yeah. L-- the classes were, yeah, most of them, most of the classes were Monday, Wednesday, Friday. But there were some that were Tuesday and Thursday but not Saturday. Uh, what was the subject we were on there?

FERNHEIMER: Just your typical day.

LEVY: Oh.

FERNHEIMER: Where did you eat? Did you eat on campus?

LEVY: Eat.

FERNHEIMER: Or at home?

LEVY: Uh, no. I ate breakfast at home and then the student union for lunch and sometimes student union for dinner depending on if I had a late class. Well, it was two dinners. (laughs) A snack. A snack dinner at the student union and a full dinner at home by the time I got there. Uh, c-- because, uh, most of the 00:35:00time, uh, I caught a, uh, had to catch a--I lived at home. I didn't live in the fraternity house. So I had to catch a bus back home. S-- sometimes the buses were not--I'd miss it or--and, uh, sometimes I'd walk all the way from campus to home.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, and what did you do to relax while you were a student?

LEVY: Hm. Went to the fraternity house. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: H-- how did you get involved with the fraternity? With--tell me about your experiences there. Which fraternity was it?

LEVY: ZBT. That was the only Jewish fraternity here. And most of the other fraternities wouldn't take any Jewish in--in them anyway. Uh, s-- we, uh, on days that I didn't have a lot of classes that's where I'd go. I'd go to the fraternity house on Tuesday and Thursday for example. I had more open hours. So it was on State Street and I'd go up there and loaf. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Loaf.

LEVY: In between classes. Uh, well, I'd see some of the guys coming in. Sometimes had lunch there. The housemother would make lunch for us.

FERNHEIMER: W-- what was a typical lunch at the fraternity house?

LEVY: Just a sandwich or soup. Yeah, it was--it was about it. Maybe a piece of fruit. That was about it.

FERNHEIMER: And who were--who were the other brothers? What--how did you get involved with Z-- ZBT?

LEVY: Well, a year ahead of me was another Lexingtonian, Ivan Goldfarb. And he was already in the fraternity. And think if that--he was the only one from Lexington. But he--we lived only a half a block apart on--off of Fontaine. He lived on Sycamore and I lived on Fontaine. So I knew him growing up. And he forced me into the fraternity. (laughs) Towards the fraternity anyway. And, 00:37:00uh, Jack Miller came a year or two behind us. Two years behind us I guess. There was, uh, Sandy Bederman was a Lexington guy. So there were--there were several Lexington. Think who else. M-- most--so that's all of the Lexington people that were in it. The others were from Louisville or New York.

FERNHEIMER: And did you Lexingtonians know each other beforehand from the Jewish community?

LEVY: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Jack was at the temple. I knew him there. Ivan was at the temple. I knew him there. I knew them through Sunday school. Alan Bloomfield.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

LEVY: Was also--they were all temple members though. They weren't synagogue members. The boys I knew at--Sandy Bederman at the shul. And there were the 00:38:00Wenn--, uh, Jim--Jim Wenneker was also at temple. He was a year ahead of me. He was in the fraternity.

FERNHEIMER: That's Wenneker, Wenneker shoes?

LEVY: Yes. Yeah. His father, Al Wenneker, and my father, Hyman Levy, were partners later on. They had a Howard Johnson Motor Lodge here. And the two of them owned it. That was my later job in college. (laughs) Working in the motel. The desk at Howard Johnson's. And going to Howard Johnson conventions. And--and there was a guy out of Louisville who owned the--the restaurant part.

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember who that was?

LEVY: No.

FERNHEIMER: Another Jewish guy or--

LEVY: --no, no, he wasn't Jewish. But he had--he had the franchise for the Howard Johnson restaurant. It was on Limestone, Nicholasville Road I guess you'd call it. It's where, uh, Zandale Shopping Center--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

LEVY: My father and Wenneker built the first. That was Zandale Center. They built that. And the motel was next door where Walgreens is and a vacant lot now. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) And so you worked there through college?

LEVY: Yeah. And part-time in high school. Yeah, sometimes cleaning rooms. Sometimes doing the laundry. And sometimes working the desk.

FERNHEIMER: And--

LEVY: --and then both--I don't know if I should put this in. You can block something out if it's not supposed to be here, right? There were people who--men who were meeting women at the rooms and they would sh-- pay me $5 to shut up. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Oh. So--

LEVY: --and never tell.

FERNHEIMER: So were they--

LEVY: --so embarrassing job.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) I imagine so. M-- when you say they were meeting women, were they meeting women not their wives? Were they meeting women, uh.

LEVY: Right, not--not their wives.

FERNHEIMER: Uh.

LEVY: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I imagine that you learn a lot working at the Howard Johnson.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Did you encounter folks from synagogue or temple ever?

LEVY: Sometimes, yeah. Can't tell you who though. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: I'm not asking. But--

LEVY: --because they wanted a special rate. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Oh, really?

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: A discount for the confidentiality?

LEVY: Because only a few hours.

FERNHEIMER: Oh.

LEVY: Not going to stay all night. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: I see.

LEVY: I think you ought to blank that out.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Well, we can revisit that at the end of the interview if you like. Uh, can--I want to circle back to the, uh, fraternity though.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit, uh, about--so I heard about some of the brothers who were in the fraternity at the time. What--what did--what did you all do in the fraternity? What were some of the activities? Uh, were there any other student organizations that you were involved in? Tell me about social 00:41:00life as a college student here at UK.

LEVY: Yes. Uh, I was in, uh, uh, what did they call it? If you had been in the boy scouts they had some kind of group that met maybe once or twice a month.

FERNHEIMER: Was it Eagle Scouts? Or no?

LEVY: No, you didn't have to be an Eagle. Just if you were in the boy scouts. They would meet in the student union building.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

LEVY: The--I don't remember the name of it. And it may not even have been an official--(laughs)--thing. But we met there. Uh, Hillel. The--most of the time the Hillel. We'd meet in the student union but sometimes on Sundays we'd go to temple--to the temple, where we could get food. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So you--you met in the student union when for Hillel? Were there--do you recall that there were dances sponsored by Hillel?

LEVY: We had dances but I'm not sure if it was Hillel or not. That's when my wife chased me.

FERNHEIMER: We're going to get to that.

LEVY: Uh, what else were the fraternity boys in? There were--there was a wide variety of, uh, courses that the guys at the fraternity were in. Some in engineering, some in business, some premed, uh, they didn't call it premed, they were chemistry or whatever, they didn't have a medical school or premed course here. But that's where they were headed. Uh.

FERNHEIMER: And so was there a lot of overlap between the, uh, students who were involved with the fraternity ZBT and--and Hillel? How many students were involved in Hillel? Do you recall?

LEVY: Oh, I'd say twenty to twenty-five, counting the girls, yeah. Uh, really I'd say that's about--sometimes there were only ten or twelve of us at meeting.

FERNHEIMER: And what did you discuss at those meetings for Hillel?

LEVY: Oh, the rabbi would make--temple rabbi would make a talk. And sometimes they would invite, uh, somebody from out of town, the--one of the Jewish organizations that they wanted us to join when we grow up--(laughs)--or when we graduate. You know, somebody would come from B'nai B'rith and, uh, different organizations would have a speaker.

FERNHEIMER: And who was the rabbi at the time? Was it Rabbi--at the temple.

LEVY: Uh.

FERNHEIMER: It wasn't Grafman, right? Or was it?

LEVY: Grafman was here but, uh, I don't think he--while I was in school I don't think that's--I don't remember the name.

FERNHEIMER: That's okay.

LEVY: Picture him. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. What did he look like?

LEVY: Uh, it went away. Shoot, I should remember.

FERNHEIMER: It'll come back.

LEVY: Could have practiced.

FERNHEIMER: You're doing great. Uh, so Hillel meetings. There was a talk by the rabbi. And a speaker from one of these Jewish organizations.

LEVY: Yeah. And then--and then sometimes we would practice d-- do a little play.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, really?

LEVY: Yeah. Do a--

FERNHEIMER: --tell me about these plays.

LEVY: Well, we just would meet with some of the girls that, you know, and they would--we're going to do a thing of a musical or just not really professional, just, uh, somebody could play the piano or play and then we'd pret-- sing. (laughs) Or some of the girls would dance.

FERNHEIMER: And who--was there an audience or was this just to--

LEVY: --the students.

FERNHEIMER: The students?

LEVY: Yeah. Hillel students. (laughs) Hillel kids.

FERNHEIMER: But there were only twenty or thirty of the Hillel kids.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Was there like five or six performing?

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And did you take turns or did you try out or--

LEVY: --yeah. Took turns. Jack Miller may remember more about that.

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember anything about a Hillel debating club? Or debating society?

LEVY: No.

FERNHEIMER: Harriett Rose mentioned something about a traveling Hillel debate society.

LEVY: May have been before me.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

LEVY: Or may have been after. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Well, I know she was before but--

LEVY: --I don't remember, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: I'm very curious.

LEVY: But while she was in school you mean?

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

LEVY: Yeah. I don't think they had it when I was there.

FERNHEIMER: Do you recall--was debating big on campus at the time just in general or--

LEVY: --not that I remember. But I may not have been in that group. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So--so you had these meetings. And was there a s-- like a social component to Hillel? Obviously if you were--

LEVY: --yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --dancing and singing and kind of just hanging out.

LEVY: Uh, once or twice a year they'd have some kind of dance. Uh, but it would be at temple, not at UK. UK--

FERNHEIMER: --w-- do you know why it was there?

LEVY: Well, uh, we may have had some synagogue, but I don't, uh, first off my head comes why we didn't--I think we were more Reform Jews than, uh, what we called Orthodox, but we weren't Orthodox at the shul. (laughs) But there were more Reform guys and girls at--at campus Jewish.

FERNHEIMER: About how many Jewish students do you think were on campus at the time?

LEVY: Fifty maybe. Maybe--maybe less.

FERNHEIMER: Uh.

LEVY: I'm not sure.

FERNHEIMER: And were most of them in either the fraternity or I know there was a sorority, Phi Sigma Sigma?

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, were there any who were--to your knowledge who you knew were Jewish but they weren't part of Hillel or they weren't part of the fraternity?

LEVY: No. No, I think everybody took part in one or the other, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And what was fraternity life like? What did you guys do? 00:47:00What--you told me about Hillel and sort of the meetings there. What--what was--what was ZBT like? Tell me about the house. Tell me about your activities.

LEVY: The house--the house was on State Street. There was, uh, three, seven, eight, ten, twelve, maybe thirteen, fourteen guys. No, there were three upstairs. So about seventeen and, uh, three or four stayed in the attic. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So seventeen plus four? Twenty-one?

LEVY: Let's see. There was a room on the left was two. The president, three. S-- three, and that's six. Four in that one, ten. Two in this one, twelve. And two or three upstairs. So it was, uh, uh, fourteen or fifteen guys living in the house.

FERNHEIMER: But you never lived in the house because you lived at home.

LEVY: Yeah, I lived at home. I wouldn't live there. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: No? How come?

LEVY: It was just too crowded. I mean the rooms were little bitty rooms and it 00:48:00was hardly to get out of bed you almost hit the other bed, uh, you know, it was one shower and one bathroom for all of them, so they drew numbers of who goes first. Uh, the night before you grab your number and that's what number when you get to do the shower. Which was in the basement. The shower was in the basement. The bathroom was upstairs.

FERNHEIMER: But there weren't stalls in the basement?

LEVY: Just one.

FERNHEIMER: Just one.

LEVY: One stall. Yeah. One shower stall.

FERNHEIMER: So one shower for about fourteen, fifteen guys?

LEVY: Yeah. And they'd fight over who was first and it would run out of hot water. And, uh, of course they worked it out also by the guys who had an early class and the ones that had later classes. So the early class guys got to go first so they could, uh, later guys or some days if you didn't have a class you 00:49:00didn't get to take a shower. (laughs) Like if your classes mostly were Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, you showered then, but Tuesday and Thursday you didn't get to, unless you did it late before you went to bed or something, you know. I mean I'm sure they took a shower, but not before class. May have done it in the evening, not as many were taking showers as they did in the morning.

FERNHEIMER: What else? Was there a space for folks to congregate not in the itty-bitty rooms? Was there like a social space?

LEVY: There was a living room and a dining room in the house. Uh, and they had a housemother who made them--cooked all the meals, with help from some of the guys each week would help her. So there was a living room, dining room. With a little room off to the side like a den where they studied. Was--house is still there. It's on State Street.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, it's still there.

LEVY: Yeah, it's still there.

FERNHEIMER: What number is it?

LEVY: One thirteen I think. It's about the--if they haven't torn it down this 00:50:00week--well, I think UK or somebody bought the block. But--but it's about the second or third house down on the right side of State Street if you're coming from Nicholasville Road. It's a yellow stucco house. Maybe third or fourth house down. Yeah, well, they may have torn down. So it's a yellow stucco on the right side of State Street, 113 was the address.

FERNHEIMER: And did they have social functions at the house as well like dances or parties?

LEVY: Not at the house. Uh, those--sometimes parties. But it was too small. Most of the stuff was at student union or someplace else.

FERNHEIMER: And what do you remember of the--the parties? Did they interact with other fraternities or--

LEVY: -mm-mm, no, didn't interact. Well, there was a--the president would go to a meeting with the other fraternity presidents.

FERNHEIMER: The interfraternity council?

LEVY: Yeah, yeah, right, they would go to that. But, uh, there wasn't a lot of interfraternity stuff. Uh, except if there was a--sometimes there was a competition. I'm trying to think what. Like softball games or something like that. They played each other. It was all--no official. It was just one of the guys would make a deal with one of the other guys in another fraternity, let's play softball, you know, or let's play basketball. That kind of thing. But n-- nothing, uh, official. Bowling. Did--there was a lot of bowling.

FERNHEIMER: Where--where was the bowling alley? Was it in the union or--

LEVY: --no, it was, uh, well, it's gone. But it was on the s-- how would I describe it? It was off Euclid across from where the Fine Arts Building is 00:52:00where Memorial Coliseum--(laughs)--

FERNHEIMER: --so there was a bowling alley in there?

LEVY: Yeah, it was a bowling alley. No. Next door to it.

FERNHEIMER: Next door.

LEVY: Yeah. Right--there were some restaurants on the corner of Rose and--and--and Euclid. And then the bowling alley.

FERNHEIMER: And how many guys--who--who was--who were some of your closest contacts I guess in the fraternity? Do you remember who you came in with in terms of pledge brothers or--

LEVY: --uh, see, I was the only one in my class from Lexington. From Louisville was Marty Solomon. And another fellow named Stuart Yussman. Jack Miller was behind us. Uh, Ivan Goldfarb.

FERNHEIMER: He was your class?

LEVY: He was a year ahead.

FERNHEIMER: A year ahead.

LEVY: Of me. Uh, the Lexingtonians, I think that was about--oh, Sandy 00:53:00Bederman. He was same year as Ivan, so two years ahead of me.

FERNHEIMER: How many brothers were in the fraternity total at about that time?

LEVY: I'd say sixteen or eighteen. That's a guess. See what everybody else says. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Well, we can also look in the--in the Kentuckians and the yearbooks and pull out the number.

LEVY: Yeah. Sixteen, eighteen, yeah, uh, think less than twenty.

FERNHEIMER: And how--how did the fraternity impact your Jewish identity or the way you thought about yourself?

LEVY: Oh, very much. Very much so.

FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about that?

LEVY: In what way?

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, tell me.

LEVY: Well, just being with--when you're in Lexington, I only had three Jewish friends. About four is all there were. So that was a big deal to have that many guys that, you know, could be friends. And then there--the sorority, the 00:54:00girls were from out of town. Except for one or two. Uh, so it was more of a Jewish life than you really had. Jewish life in a way that you're doing things with Jewish people. (laughs) Is what I mean. Not, uh.

FERNHEIMER: And did--was there an emphasis on holidays or anything like that in the fraternity? Or did they go--did--did the house go as a house to either temple or synagogue?

LEVY: They didn't go as a house. But all went one place or the other. Yeah. Most everybody did. Some didn't. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And how many--so you said there was a handful of folks from Louisville and Lexington and the--where did the rest of the--the brothers come from? You mentioned New York.

LEVY: New York. New York. Uh, let's see. Pittsburgh or Philadelphia, I can't remember. Pennsylvania. Then there was, uh, from, uh, Chicago. Trying to 00:55:00think of the names. If I had the names. Uh, m-- b-- n-- very few from the West. Most East.

FERNHEIMER: So, uh.

LEVY: And North.

FERNHEIMER: And why did they end up coming up to UK? Do you--

LEVY: --I think the ones from the big cities came because it was cheaper.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

LEVY: Even paying--(laughs)--even paying to get them down here, you know, train or bus or whatever was a whole lot less money than going to a school in Chicago or Philadelphia or, uh, uh, that's my assumption. Uh, nobody ever said I guess. You know, you're not going to say, "Oh, I came here because it's cheap." (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Right.

LEVY: Why did DuBow say he came to Kentucky?

FERNHEIMER: I'm trying to remember. I know, uh, a couple of folks talked about the quotas in the East and, uh, the quotas were--

LEVY: --yeah. Yeah. That too. Yeah. Was easier to get into UK.

FERNHEIMER: Uh. Um-hm.

LEVY: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Gradewise and everything I guess.

FERNHEIMER: I think DuBow had some family connections here in the hat business if I recall. Uh.

LEVY: Well, his father was in the hat business and the Meyerses had a store where they sold hats. And well, there were several stores here that sold hats. So that may have been--they must have been friends of his father, whatever, and that may have got him here.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. It's been a while. I have to relisten.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, so going back, you said, uh, it was really different to have this kind of large group of folks who were Jewish.

LEVY: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, and so was--would you say that Jewish life on c-- how would you say Jewish life on campus compared to your Jewish life in Lexington where you grew up in the temple and the synagogue?

LEVY: Jewishwise only because you had more Jewish friends. But I don't think it was--religiouswise I don't think it added anything, the fraternity. I don't 00:57:00think that added any religious meaning. Because it was always a battle to get everybody to go to synagogue or temple with you. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So they were more interested in hanging out and--

LEVY: --yeah. Yeah. They did like going to Hillel. Hillel meetings. But of course that may have been because they got a meal.

FERNHEIMER: So there was a meal in the student union or only when they were at the temple?

LEVY: Temple.

FERNHEIMER: And who provided the meal? The sisterhood or--

LEVY: I don't know. (laughs) Somebody did.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs)

LEVY: I don't really--I don't really know.

FERNHEIMER: --some things don't change, that's how you get students to activities.

LEVY: I don't even remember if we had to pay for anything. Uh, I don't remember.

FERNHEIMER: Uh.

LEVY: Probably had to pay something I would think. But--

FERNHEIMER: --so it sounds like Hillel is one of the things that took you off campus when you were--

LEVY: --yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --a student. Uh.

LEVY: Took me--well, I lived off campus too. But I came to campus every day.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. What--what--did you have any experiences with, uh, anti-Semitism on campus?

LEVY: Only the fraternities that wouldn't let any Jews in. (laughs) But nothing, uh, you know, bad. I mean we knew it, it was acceptable, and didn't want to get in there anyway.

FERNHEIMER: And what about growing up in Lexington? Did you have--can you describe any experiences with, uh.

LEVY: Anti-Semitic, I didn't run into anything. Really didn't.

FERNHEIMER: Not in the restaurant or the--all the stores?

LEVY: No. Really didn't run into anything.

FERNHEIMER: Why do you think that was?

LEVY: I don't know, now that you ask. It's, uh, I guess there were places we stayed away from but I don't remember where they were, but it was told to stay away from. (laughs) But I don't remember even where they were.

FERNHEIMER: Because of the fear that there would be--

LEVY: --yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --a negative experience?

LEVY: Yeah, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, what was your impression of Jewish life in Lexington at that time when you were a college student or--or earlier?

LEVY: In what way? When you say--

FERNHEIMER: --was it--that's a good question back. Uh.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: I'm trying not to lead you anywhere in particular.

LEVY: No. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: But I guess was it a positive thing? Was it, uh, a strong thing? Did you like being part of--was it--

LEVY: --yes. Oh yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --big, small, uh.

LEVY: No, I liked--I liked--that was the best thing about the fraternity is you got involved in a lot of Jewish stuff because a lot of the guys would do it.

FERNHEIMER: So can you give me an example of the kinds of things you'd get involved in?

LEVY: Well, Hillel was one, uh.

FERNHEIMER: So you found out about Hillel from the fraternity?

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: You didn't know about it from temple?

LEVY: No. No, I don't think so.

FERNHEIMER: And what was the benefit or the difference between the activities 01:00:00that Hillel put on and the activities that the fraternity put on?

LEVY: Well, the fraternities wasn't Jewish coordinated. It was either sports or--or games or, you know, that kind of thing. It wasn't--wasn't--wasn't religious.

FERNHEIMER: But Hillel did have more of a religious aspect?

LEVY: Well, because everybody was Jewish and they usually--the speaker or whatever they had was something to do with Judaism.

FERNHEIMER: Did Israel ever come up then?

LEVY: Probably did, but I don't remember it being very much.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

LEVY: Till after that.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, what were the highlights of your time as a student at UK?

LEVY: Meeting my wife. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Tell me about that.

LEVY: I guess that was the main, uh, main highlight of my college life. Sara, 01:01:00I didn't know this till we were married five or six years. She's already told you the story?

FERNHEIMER: I've heard some versions of the story but I want to hear your version.

LEVY: She--she came to--she came to campus. Well, uh, Ivan Goldfarb was dating her sister and they lived in Williamson, West Virginia.

FERNHEIMER: How did Ivan meet her sister Sonia?

LEVY: Here at school.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: And one time Ivan and Sonia invited me to go to Williamson to meet her sister, and I met her. And then a year later--

FERNHEIMER: --how old were you at the time?

LEVY: So it would have been, uh, let's see. Seventeen, eighteen, eighteen or nineteen.

FERNHEIMER: And she was about--

LEVY: --two years younger, seventeen--sixteen, seventeen.

FERNHEIMER: Sixteen or seventeen.

LEVY: They had me go down to Williamson. And met her. And then a few years later she came to UK, she says to get me. Of course I didn't know any of this until we were married six or seven years that she came--we were having an argument. She said, "You don't know what the hell is going on around you." What do you mean? She says, "Well, how do you think that, uh, when we had dinners I was always at your table? How do you think when we played bridge I was always at your table? How do you think when you got out of class in the White Hall and you were going towards student union eat lunch I was always sitting on a bench at the armory? S-- and some days you would say hello and some days you just went right on? And, uh, how do you think when we played bridge always we had bridge in the--I would be at your table?" And, uh, I had an uncle who let me use his car for every hour I babysat his kids.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Which uncle was this?

LEVY: Sidney Gall. H-- they had, uh, a pawnshop. And I would babysit his kids when he and his wife Zelda would go out. And every hour I babysat I got to use his car.

FERNHEIMER: What kind of car was it?

LEVY: Was a Nash Rambler.

FERNHEIMER: What year? Any idea?

LEVY: It would have been, uh, uh, fifties. Yeah, early fifties. And, uh, one day Sara said, "How do you think I was always in the backseat when you were dating?" It was a girl she called Freddy (??) the Body.

FERNHEIMER: Tell me about Freddy the Body.

LEVY: I don't even remember her real name anymore. First name was Freddy. And I had a date with her, couple, few dates. Several dates. But--

FERNHEIMER: --she was Jewish or not Jewish?

LEVY: No, not Jewish. Didn't intend, uh, just had to have somebody to go. She needed and I needed, if you were going to a dance or going to something you had to have a date. And, uh, Sara said, "How do you think I was always in the 01:04:00backseat of the car when you were dating Freddy or Lisa (??) or whatever?" I said, "I don't know." She says, "Well, I would--I would ask your fraternity brothers. 'Erle has got a car next weekend, and they're going,' to--to a movie or going to Joyland Park or going to--I'd say, 'Why don't you ask him if we can ride with him?'" So she'd be in the backseat. I didn't know she planned all that. "How do you think," she said, "when--when they had dances at--at the student union?" She--I didn't know this. Know any of this. She would get there early and change the place cards so that she and her date would be at the same table my--my date and I. They had little place cards and she's move people. Uh, she'd get there early and move the cards so she'd be sitting at my table.

FERNHEIMER: So you sat at a table when you were at these dances?

LEVY: Yeah, yeah, they had, you know, well, sometimes you eat dinner or lunch, depending on what it was. But she'd change the place cards. I didn't know it.

FERNHEIMER: Was this in the ballroom at the student--

LEVY: --in the student union, yeah. Well, different rooms in the student union. And then she said, "How do you think that when you had your uncle's car I was always in the backseat with whoever it was? Seeing what you were doing with the different girls that you were dating." I said, "I don't know." She said, "Well, uh, I would ask your fraternity brother, one of the fraternity brothers. 'Erle has got a car this weekend. Why don't you ask him if we can go with him?' To the movie or to the drive-in, uh, uh, drive-in movies. To the drive-in movie or he's got a car, why don't, uh, for the dance. Why don't--you don't want to have to catch a cab." Uh, so she knew everything was going on with me. I didn't know any of this[MC5] until after we were married.

FERNHEIMER: That's--(laughs)--

LEVY: --and she told me, "You don't know what the hell is going on around. How do you think I was always in the backseat of the car? How do you think I was always at your table?" She would change the place cards, I'd be at a different table.

FERNHEIMER: And you had no idea what was going on.

LEVY: No, she was--change the c-- no. She told me all this. She changed the cards so that she and her date would be at the s-- my table. She went to the registrar and asked my, uh, schedule, so that she knew. She told them she was my sister and she wanted my schedule so that she'd know where I was going to be.

FERNHEIMER: On campus.

LEVY: On campus. And she would--she knew what--when I got out for lunch and if she could she--she, uh, would sit, I don't know. Uh, uh, there's a building there they used to call the armory next to the student union.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

LEVY: Between the new White Hall, was old White Hall, but there was a building there. There was a bench out there for years. I guess it's gone now. But she'd sit there hoping that I would ask her to go to the student union and have lunch. And some days I did and some days I didn't. And sh-- to get there she had to come from the dorm, from the Fine--from the Fine Arts Building on Rose Street and run clear across campus in the time between quarter of and 12:00. 01:07:00I'm just coming down White Hall and walking very short. She'd get there. And I remembered after she told me that she was always sweaty and out of breath.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs)

LEVY: And that's because she'd been running to get into that seat. I didn't know any of this. Because she said I didn't know what the hell was going on. Dances, she'd change the place cards so she'd be at--she and her date would be there. She--

FERNHEIMER: --so how long was it before you actually asked her out for legitimate reasons?

LEVY: Probably a year. Yeah. I didn't, uh, I told you about my uncle letting me use the car. And she--so--

FERNHEIMER: --so you--so she was riding along in the backseat and miraculously showing up at the table at the dances.

LEVY: Never dawned on me.

FERNHEIMER: It took a year.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Before you actually asked her out.

LEVY: Right.

FERNHEIMER: On the regular.

LEVY: Right.

FERNHEIMER: And do you remember that first date with her?

LEVY: No.

FERNHEIMER: Do you have any--

LEVY: --not really, no.

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember--what was your courtship like? Can you tell me 01:08:00about that? Once you actually were intentionally courting after[MC6]--

LEVY: --it was probably eight or nine months. Yeah, wasn't very long before I said, "When I get out of here, let's get married." (laughs) So--

FERNHEIMER: --do you remember how you proposed?

LEVY: No. Just asked her to marry me, that's the only thing, yeah. I didn't get down on my knees or anything.

FERNHEIMER: And then you got married sh-- right after you graduated?

LEVY: Yes. Yeah, graduated in January and got married in January. End of January. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So this was nineteen fifty--

LEVY: --five.

FERNHEIMER: Five. And you all--did you stay in town after graduation?

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Been here ever since. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And what was your first job out of college?

LEVY: First job out of college was working, uh, for my father in, uh, he had a 01:09:00rental property that I would help keep straight. And, uh, and I got a real estate license to try to sell houses. And, uh, I did a little bit of everything. I still worked at the pawnshop, uh.

FERNHEIMER: This was your uncle's pawnshop or your grandfather's? Uh.

LEVY: My grandfather--my grandfather's. And uncle's. Same--same place.

FERNHEIMER: Same pawnshop?

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Okay, not like the Rosenbergs who had three different stores.

LEVY: No.

FERNHEIMER: They had the one pawnshop.

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. And then--then, uh, got into building houses and the sh-- like I say the Zandale Shopping Center. And then they went--I worked at the motel when they went in--when he went into the hotel business--motel business.

FERNHEIMER: And so this was after--you started in college. And did you continue to work there after college? After you'd gotten married?

LEVY: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: At the Howard Johnson?

LEVY: Yeah, there and just when, uh, when they--he would call me when somebody didn't show up. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: And, uh, I missed a question. Uh, I hope you'll--

LEVY: --okay--

FERNHEIMER: --forgive me for going back. Uh, uh, do you have any advice that you would give to UK students today?

LEVY: Mm.

FERNHEIMER: Or UK Jewish students?

LEVY: Try to get with them. Get with Hillel or whatever way you can keep your Jewish identity going to appreciate it and to meet other Jewish students.

FERNHEIMER: Why is that so important?

LEVY: Well, I just think Jewish life, marrying somebody Jewish, having kids that are Jewish is important.

FERNHEIMER: So--

LEVY: --my grandmother is in my head telling me that. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. You can see her sitting there. Well, uh, you brought up family. And I want to talk a little bit now about how Jewishness has figured 01:11:00into your adult life. Uh, you know, so we know you married Sara. Sara is also Jewish. Uh, how did it figure into the way that you created the family you built together? Uh, uh, you told me about, you know, you went to synagogue and temple.

LEVY: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Mostly because your grandparents--

LEVY: --um-hm--

FERNHEIMER: --emphasized that. Uh, how did you and Sara create a Jewish life? Or did you?

LEVY: We did the same thing. We belonged to both--paid dues at both organizations. Uh, the kids went to temple Sunday school and some services we went to both. One one night and the other one the next day, the other place. Uh, because we wanted them to be Jewish. But so we--we were in b-- the kids were all involved in all the stuff at temple s-- groups, Sunday school. So more temple groups than shul groups. But we went to shul for the--for the holidays. 01:12:00For different holidays[MC7] but--

FERNHEIMER: --so it sounds like there was religious observance at the synagogue.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And--and social life at--

LEVY: --yeah. Social at temple, yeah. Well, but the--but sometimes we went to temple services. But most of the time it was shul services. With the kids. I'm talking about w-- k-- kids all went to temple Sunday school.

FERNHEIMER: And tell me, you have--how many children do you have?

LEVY: They--they--four. They all--

FERNHEIMER: And their names and ages or years they were born?

LEVY: Laura. Laura was born in, uh, '52. Leslie was born in--

FERNHEIMER: So before you graduated?

LEVY: Oh wait, no. I'm sorry, '56.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: Yeah, Laura was born, married in '55. Laura was born in '56. Leslie was born in '58. Lisa[MC8][MC9] (??) was born in '60 and Phillip (??) was born in '61. Then we stopped. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: I imagine you had your hands full.

LEVY: It was hard.

FERNHEIMER: Uh.

LEVY: So they--they, uh, all went to temple Sunday school and t--

FERNHEIMER: --and they were confirmed or bar--

LEVY: --yeah, they were confirmed and two of them were bar mitzvahed. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: No bat mitzvahs.

LEVY: Bat mitzvahed. No. Well, the--well, she had something. Leslie had--I guess it was--maybe the temple did a bar mitzvah, I don't know. Just remember she did s-- some kind of--

FERNHEIMER: --bat mitzvah?

LEVY: Yeah. The--the other two girls didn't.

FERNHEIMER: And she was the--the youngest of the daughters?

LEVY: She was the--no, uh, second oldest--second oldest child.

FERNHEIMER: Second oldest.

LEVY: Right. She became Orthodox. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: This is the daughter who now lives in Israel?

LEVY: Yes. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And, uh, was--would you s-- tell me about your social networks. Uh, you said you socialized a lot at the temple. Who were some of the families 01:14:00that you did the holidays with or that you hung out with?

LEVY: Well, the holidays we did mostly at shul.

FERNHEIMER: At the synagogue itself?

LEVY: Well, at h-- I mean if we had something at home. But the temple was, uh, Bloomfield, Jack Miller, Ivan Goldfarb, uh, J-- Jimmy (??) Straus, Joe Wile, uh, did I say Wenneker?

FERNHEIMER: Uh, no.

LEVY: Yeah. Jim Wenneker.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

LEVY: Jack Miller. Uh.

FERNHEIMER: So these are the people that you would spend Shabbos with or that you'd go, I don't know--

LEVY: --no.

FERNHEIMER: No.

LEVY: No. I j-- I was just trying to think who it was that--Shabbos, you mean after, uh.

FERNHEIMER: Uh.

LEVY: Before sc-- while we were in school? Or after school?

FERNHEIMER: After school. D-- did you have--

LEVY: --after school--

FERNHEIMER: --family meals? Did you invite other families or--

LEVY: --we did after the kids got a little older. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I imagine that that--

LEVY: --yeah, while they were little we didn't, no. We had--she--she--she 01:15:00cooked for some people. Uh, I don't remember who came over but the--she--some Shabbos evenings we had people.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, would you say--when--how would you describe your involvement in the Jewish community? Did it move beyond the synagogue and the temple? Were there other organizations that you were involved with as an adult after college and after the fraternity?

LEVY: Uh, yeah, but I don't remember. Uh, B'nai B'rith for a w-- we had a B'nai B'rith for a while and then it kind of stopped and then now it's--they're back up again s--

FERNHEIMER: --and are you still involved today?

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, gosh, I don't remember. Sorry, I should have thought of--

FERNHEIMER: --that's okay. Do you have a very, uh, can you describe a vivid memory of Jewish life or ritual from your adult life?

LEVY: No. Ritual[MC10]. I'm not sure what you're asking.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, just a memory associated with Jewishness. It doesn't have to be a ritual, uh, if there's a strong one that stays--

LEVY: --well, I mean I enjoy going to High Holidays to synagogue. Uh, and some Shabboses. And, uh, of course since we were married Sara is always cooking for every holiday there is. She's cooking for people.

FERNHEIMER: She took your grandmother's, uh, promise to heart.

LEVY: Right. Sh-- right. She took her dishes. We still have all our kosher dishes for Passover. We use them every year when we have people for Passover. The dishes are in the cabinet. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Wow. That's pretty nice treasure to still have.

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Are they glass?

LEVY: China.

FERNHEIMER: China.

LEVY: And there's some glass too, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, what was the non-Jewish community's reaction to your 01:17:00Jewishness? Did you--

LEVY: --didn't really--wherever they didn't like them I didn't go. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So you knew to avoid it strategically.

LEVY: Yeah, yeah. I knew who--who was and who wasn't. And I had a lot of friends that were not Jewish in high school. In high school mainly.

FERNHEIMER: In college also or was it mostly the fraternity?

LEVY: In college it was mostly fraternity, yeah, mostly Jewish.

FERNHEIMER: And after college? I imagine with four children there wasn't a lot going on at all except kids, but--

LEVY: --no, right, right. Yeah. And mostly Jewish friends now, yeah. Yeah, uh, Jewish life. I mean our life after we were married and had kids was still mostly Jewish.

FERNHEIMER: And--

LEVY: --except for work.

FERNHEIMER: And you started telling me a little bit about work. Can you tell me? Uh, I know now you have, uh, the shop. Uh, tell me the name of the shop and how you got into the business.

LEVY: Well, first I was in the building business, building houses. Motel. And then building houses. Helping with the shopping center. Uh, then I had a--they had a vacant place in the Zandale Center and I--and another partner and I, we put in a coin laundry, which three times a week we had to go get machines fixed and take the change out of all the machines and, uh.

FERNHEIMER: When was this? Wh-- when did you start the coin laundry? And with whom?

LEVY: Uh, man named Bill Silliman who was also a partner in some house building. He was in the drywall business.

FERNHEIMER: Jewish or not Jewish?

LEVY: Not Jewish.

FERNHEIMER: Not Jewish.

LEVY: And, uh, we--we had that coin laundry together in the shopping center. And then I helped with the motel. And then I was building houses. Well, my 01:19:00father was building them, I was working for him. (laughs) Put it that way. Mostly, uh, veterans, uh, who w-- who, uh, had a G-- GI Bill VA--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

LEVY: --a hundred percent loan. Didn't have to have anything down. Just some--pay some closing costs. And we did several sh--, uh, subdivisions around town. Uh, uh.

FERNHEIMER: And how did you move from that into the lighting business?

LEVY: Well, I was in the building business and, uh, we had a--a friend of mine, DeWitt Hisle, was an accountant.

FERNHEIMER: DeWitt Hisle?

LEVY: DeWitt Hisle.

FERNHEIMER: Witt?

LEVY: DeWitt.

FERNHEIMER: DeWitt.

LEVY: He's still here. Uh, he was in the accounting business and he, uh, called us up one time and my partner Bill Silliman and w-- he was one of my partners in the building business, had several building companies that he was a 01:20:00partner. One of them we called Silliman and Levy. He called up one day and said, "A guy that owns the lighting store wants to sell it and he'll give us five years to pay him. And you guys know everybody in the building business. So I think you all ought to see about buying it from him." So we bought Kentucky Lighting.

FERNHEIMER: This was you and Silliman.

LEVY: Yeah. We bought Kentucky Lighting.

FERNHEIMER: And what year was that?

LEVY: Nineteen, uh, '58 or '60, somewhere along in there.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: Maybe '57 s-- after--

FERNHEIMER: --after one of your--which child?

LEVY: I had--already had two. So it had to be '60 or '61 that we bought--bought it. And, uh, we knew all the builders, because he was in the drywall business and I was building houses. So we wanted to furnish them, uh, lighting--lighting--light fixtures. So then on the other hand I was building 01:21:00houses and then, uh, built some efficiency apartments on Zandale and Lowry Lane. And then later on we built a big apartment project on Tates Creek Road we called the Greenhouse. But we sold it since then. Sara managed it. We sold it to a guy out of Philadelphia. It's still there. Uh, what was the question?

FERNHEIMER: Uh, just how you got into the lighting business.

LEVY: Well, that's how I got into it. And then in, uh, let's see, about--

FERNHEIMER: --so you've owned the store since the sixties or about--

LEVY: --s--, uh, seventies, uh, seventies.

FERNHEIMER: The seventies?

LEVY: Yeah. Yeah, seventies, uh, yeah. And, uh, but we had a manager there until he died. And then, uh, about that time Silliman and I split up. DeWitt 01:22:00Hisle, DeWitt, Bill, and I. And they wanted out. So I had to buy them out over a period of years. And then after I sold the apartments I went over to Kentucky Lighting full-time.

FERNHEIMER: And that was roughly when? In the--

LEVY: --uh, let's see. Probably about 2000 I think or 1999 or something. Maybe--I don't know. Uh, early--

FERNHEIMER: --so from the sixties or the seventies to about 2000--

LEVY: --yeah--yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --you were in business with Silliman and DeWitt?

LEVY: Well, I was with--and--

FERNHEIMER: --and doing the housing--

LEVY: --my own d-- y-- doing--I built some houses in my own name. I built some with Silliman. Uh, and DeWitt was with Kentucky Lighting. So we had to 01:23:00have--you had to have partners because you couldn't borrow--you had to borrow money to build the houses. So I always had to have somebody else cosign with me[MC11].

FERNHEIMER: Right.

LEVY: To borrow the money.

FERNHEIMER: Did you encounter any anti-Semitism in your business dealings or--

LEVY: --not that I'm aware of. I mean there were some--I was told there were some subcontractors who didn't want to work for me because I was Jewish. But I didn't care because they didn't want to work for me, so I--(laughs)--didn't bother any, you know.

FERNHEIMER: And at the lighting store?

LEVY: No, I haven't run into any that I know of.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, how have, uh[MC12], sorry I'm going back and forth between--

LEVY: --it's all right. Um-hm--

FERNHEIMER: --your professional life and between Jewish life. How would you say that things have changed in the Jewish community--and this is going to be a hard question for you I think.

LEVY: Mm.

FERNHEIMER: During the time that you've been here. Because you've been here your whole life.

LEVY: I think the Jewish community is much more outspoken than it was when I 01:24:00was younger.

FERNHEIMER: About--are there particular issues that you think are--

LEVY: --well, it's usually Israel. (laughs) That's probably the biggest one.

FERNHEIMER: And outspoken in what ways about Israel? Is Israel--tell me about the Jewish community's relationship to Israel here in Lexington.

LEVY: Well, there--there are some that are very pro-Israel and there are some that are not. Uh, some that--for example when they were raising, you know, different organizations were raising money, some wouldn't give you a dime. They might give to the temple or the synagogue, but they wouldn't give anything for any other Jewish appeals for--(laughs)--for Israel, Israel bonds.

FERNHEIMER: Through Federation.

LEVY: Well, there wasn't a Federation till later on. I don't remember what year Federation came. But prior to that different people, men and women, took 01:25:00on the responsibility of selling Israel bonds, uh.

FERNHEIMER: When did that start would you say? Was it in the sixties? After--

LEVY: --no, I'd say it was in the fifties it started. Yeah, I'd say. Yes.

FERNHEIMER: S-- so shortly after the found--

LEVY: --yeah, after they took over, yeah, Israel. Uh, yeah. It was somebody out of Cincinnati would come down and we'd have to hold a dinner, lunch, or something, let them talk, and then try to sell them $100 bonds or $500 bonds or a few guys $1,000 bonds.

FERNHEIMER: So would you say Israel is one of the biggest kind of measuring sticks of how the community has changed?

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So from sel-- selling bonds in the 1950s to--

LEVY: --well, I mean we didn't have a, uh, the what do you call it, the--

FERNHEIMER: --the Federation.

LEVY: --Federation till what, fifteen, twenty years ago.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

LEVY: Something like that. And I think that was probably a combination of the Anti-Defamation--of Israel and fighting people that didn't like Jews. (laughs) Or not fighting them but giving money to organizations that would help that. And Israel. I'd say Israel was one of the biggest things.

FERNHEIMER: And any other ways that the Jewish community has changed in the time since you were growing up here s--

LEVY: --well, there was no Federation.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

LEVY: Growing up. That's probably the biggest thing. And probably--

FERNHEIMER: --and how has--

LEVY: --I don't know if--if attendance is up or down from when--when I was younger. It seems like shul was--when it was on Maxwell Street was always crowded. You know, for every--every event. Uh, the temple was too. In fact 01:27:00they--they've enlarged since it was original. Uh, hm.

FERNHEIMER: So attendance, attitudes towards Israel. How would you describe the attitudes towards Israel now? Are they different in the synagogue and the temple? Can you generalize in that way or--

LEVY: --no, I really can't. I mean it's very strong at the synagogue. I can't say whether it is or isn't at the temple because the last ten or fifteen years I haven't really been to anything at temple other than a B'nai B'rith meeting or some rabbi speaking or some speaker coming in and speaking. But I haven't been to--probably haven't been to a temple service since the kids were confirmed. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER[MC13]: So now that the children have been grown up you--you spend more time at the synagogue would you say?

LEVY: Yes. Yes. Uh, we only--we only belong to the synagogue. We don't belong to both anymore.

FERNHEIMER: Mm. How come? Why is that?

LEVY: Because we wouldn't be going there. We're going to the synagogue. Uh, you know, events and stuff. Holidays and probably now have--we do have more friends that are synagogue. We still have some that are temple members. But m-- most of them are synagogue members.

FERNHEIMER: Would you say, uh, is there still--I've heard tell of a kind of divide socially between the synagogue and the temple. Would you say it's as strong now as it once was? Or did you notice this kind of divide?

LEVY: Well, we knew it earlier. It was very obvious. If it is now I'm not--I'm not really aware of it.

FERNHEIMER: So that's another thing maybe that's changed.

LEVY: I mean when--when our kids were in Sunday school and going to Hebrew school too, the temple people would say, "What are you, crazy or something? What are you putting them through all that? You know, why are you?" But--

FERNHEIMER: --and why did you? Why did you maintain those two memberships? 01:29:00Was it--

LEVY: --I think my grandmother and grandfather. (laughs) And Sara wanted to too. If she hadn't wanted to, they wouldn't have had to. And the kids, my mother's mother was very--great-grandmother to them. Or grandmother rather. To them. Or great-grandmother. And she loved having them on Shabbos and she would have, you know, have them for all the holidays. And that affected them I think. Two of them became Orthodox. (laughs) And I think it's due to my grandparents.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

LEVY: I mean the grandparents influenced having Sara and I have them do that.

FERNHEIMER: That brings me to another question. Uh, how would you say your Jewishness is different from that of your parents?

LEVY: Uh, my parents didn't go to services as often as we do. Uh, my parents 01:30:00didn't celebrate the hol-- the--the--the meal, uh, in other words, uh, instead of my mother having people for dinner, my grandmother did. So that kind of affected it too I guess, uh.

FERNHEIMER: So it skipped your mom's generation, went from--

LEVY: --yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --your grandmother to Sara.

LEVY: And--and a lot of the kids who had grandparents here--that had grandparents at the synagogue, the same thing with them. They--their--their parents weren't as, uh, interested in entertaining other people, having them for dinner or lunch or whatever after services or Shabbos dinner or the--the--the shul people did it way more than the temple people.

FERNHEIMER: And how--has that changed over the years? Or how has it changed over the years?

LEVY: I don't know. I know we still do it but I, you know, we used--we used to 01:31:00have Shabbos--well, still do. A lot of Shabbos dinners.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Have you st--

LEVY: --and Sara always has Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and, uh, most of the holidays.

FERNHEIMER: Passover.

LEVY: Passover. Yeah. In fact my grandmother got s-- made her swear that she would. Gave us all her Passover dishes and pots and pans and we still use them.

FERNHEIMER: That's pretty amazing.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Now you started to tell me a little bit about your children. Uh, so this question might sound a little repetitive but--

LEVY: --yeah.

FERNHEIMER: How does your relationship to Jewish identity and practice compare to theirs? You mentioned the two who became Orthodox.

LEVY: Right.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, what about the other two?

LEVY: Well, they, uh, the one in Saint Louis, Lisa, they go to services. They don't go to Friday service. They go to--to, uh, High Holidays. Different 01:32:00holiday services. And their kids were all confirmed. And one was bar mitzvahed.

FERNHEIMER: So they belong to a Reform congregation?

LEVY: Yeah, Reform. And, uh, Laura, uh, she also, they--she belonged to a Reform congregation. But she took part in a lot of the stuff at the temple.

FERNHEIMER: And how would you say h-- where you--how has where you grew up and lived affected your relationship with Judaism? Living here in Lexington.

LEVY: It was hard. Yeah, because there wasn't many--didn't have many friends that were Jewish. Uh.

FERNHEIMER: And yet you still managed to marry a Jewish woman.

LEVY: Yeah, that was--

FERNHEIMER: Raise four Jewish kids.

LEVY: Right. Right. But it was, uh, I guess again my grandmother and 01:33:00grandfather pushed that into me.

FERNHEIMER: So very powerful influence of your grandmother and grandfather.

LEVY: Yes. Yes. Very much so. And, uh, when, uh, I was younger and during the Second World War I had to help my grandfather, which I already told you. But every night at 5:30 or 6:00 they would have a minyan around the corner and have to--I'd have--I'd have to go with him to the minyan every--four days a week.

FERNHEIMER: Where was the minyan?

LEVY: On--see, how I would describe it now. It was, uh, in--in, uh, a store owned by a man named Abie Grossman. And it was on--well, they've got a hole in the ground now. But Joe Rosenberg's family was on the side of Upper Street where there's a hole now. Across the street was where my grandfather's store, Phillip Gall's. And around the corner was a man named Abie Grossman who had a 01:34:00secondhand clothing store. And that's where they met for minyans every night.

FERNHEIMER: So they didn't go to the synagogue, they just did it in the store.

LEVY: No. Right. Sometimes even the rabbi would come down the hill and come to the--to there. But all the Jewish guys would--because there were a lot of Jewish stores. But some of them were Reform. But some were syn--, uh, synagogue. And they would meet there every--every--four days a week. Monday through Thursday.

FERNHEIMER: And they had a minyan all four days?

LEVY: Yeah. Yes. Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Mostly from the shopkeepers.

LEVY: Most of them, yeah. Sh-- all the different shopkeepers closed up at 5:30 and went to minyan. (laughs) The--the--the Orthodox ones. There wasn't any Reform ones.

FERNHEIMER: Did they close on Saturday as well, d--

LEVY: --no. They weren't closed on Saturday. Saturday was the biggest business day. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: And what about the Jewish holidays? Like Rosh Hashanah or--

LEVY: --Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur they closed. Even the Ref-- even the 01:35:00temple people. There was--Main Street there was nothing open. I mean there were so many Jewish stores downtown that, uh, the other stores were happy when they were closed, but they just--they were--they were, uh, two days of Rosh Hashanah and one day Yom Kippur. Now some of the temple people were open on the second day of Rosh Hashanah. But some of the shul ones didn't.

FERNHEIMER: And so did that impact their relationship with other businesses downtown? The fact that they closed or opened? You said the other stores were happy.

LEVY: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Because I guess they had more opportunity then.

LEVY: Yeah, right, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, w--

LEVY: --there were a bunch of Jewish-owned stores downtown.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that you listed so many of them for me. Uh, any more come to mind?

LEVY: I'll think about them. I'll get you--finish the list.

FERNHEIMER: Sounds good.

LEVY: Did I get Lowenthal's on there?

FERNHEIMER: I don't think so. Where was Lowenthal's?

LEVY: It was a fur store. Sold furs. It was on Main Street.

FERNHEIMER: And what did they sell?

LEVY: Furs.

FERNHEIMER: Furs. Oh. I h-- I heard you say the first store.

LEVY: Yeah, fur.

FERNHEIMER: They u-- they sold furs.

LEVY: Fur. Furs. Yeah. Fur. M-- mostly. I mean they had other stuff too I guess but mostly that's what people went there for.

FERNHEIMER: And were they owned by the Lowenthals or by someone else?

LEVY: Um-hm. Yeah, Lowenthals.

FERNHEIMER: And--

LEVY: --I could make you a list. I may have left somebody off. Uh, Jewish-owned stores.

FERNHEIMER: That's w-- I might have you draw one for me when, uh.

LEVY: Okay.

FERNHEIMER: Th-- that w--

LEVY: --where they were on Main Street you mean?

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

LEVY: Yeah, I can--I can pretty much come up with them.

FERNHEIMER: That would be great. Looking back is there anything you would change about your relationship with Judaism or your Jewish identity or anything else?

LEVY: No, I don't think so. I've been happy with it. Two of my kids must have been. They went and stayed Orthodox. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Uh, is there anything else that I haven't asked about that you would like to share? And then I have one more question that I remembered I should have asked earlier.

LEVY: Give me the one more question. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Uh.

LEVY: I want one more question.

FERNHEIMER: How did your grandparents make it from Poland and Russia to Kentucky? How did they end up here? I should have asked this earlier.

LEVY: My--my grandfather--let me think. My grandmother was from Baltimore. And somewhere in his life he was in Baltimore and met her. That's how they got married.

FERNHEIMER: But how did he get from--well, he--he was the first generation to come from--

LEVY: --he--he was--yeah. In my family, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And so do you know how he ended up here?

LEVY: Not really. I think he was peddling and decided he liked--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm--

LEVY: --being up in the mountains and think coming out of Cincinnati he came 01:38:00down here. I guess just--don't know.

FERNHEIMER: So peddling. And what about the other side of the family?

LEVY: My father's side. He--my grandf-- my father's father first had a farm outside of Winchester and raised sheep and cattle. Then he opened up a clothing store in Winchester, Kentucky.

FERNHEIMER: And how did he land in Winchester? Do you know?

LEVY: I'm not sure. He married--my father's sister. No, that's my grandfather I'm talking about. His daughter, uh, daughter married a guy named Nathan Herman who also lived in Winchester. So they--

FERNHEIMER: --another Jewish guy.

LEVY: Yeah. And that's--my grandfather on my father's side lived with them for a while. And then they moved over here to Lexington. Uh.

FERNHEIMER: But not sure how either one ended up here in Kentucky.

LEVY: No.

FERNHEIMER: Peddling. That's--

LEVY: --yeah, that's--yeah, that's mostly what I know. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, yeah, that was the question I should have asked earlier. Uh, but is there anything else that you want to share, Erle? And I--I'll preface this by saying if the names or any of that comes back to you afterwards we'll make sure to add that in somehow.

LEVY: Names of--

FERNHEIMER: --stores or, uh, things that are--

LEVY: --I got to write them down. I'll have to write the stores down.

FERNHEIMER: That's fine.

LEVY: There were a bunch.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

LEVY: I mean on Rosh Hashanah Main Street was--

FERNHEIMER: --empty.

LEVY: Uh, you know, every time I think about it I'm thinking about the women all wore heels. Y-- on Main Street when you went down there on a Saturday the women were all dressed up in dresses and high-heeled shoes. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So it was a--it was an event to go shopping downtown.

LEVY: I guess. I guess. Because, uh, I can remember very well that I was always amazed at these women in their high heels on a--on a daytime, you know.

FERNHEIMER: So--so was it a problem when the shoe stores closed and they couldn't get them fixed?

LEVY: (laughs) I don't know. I don't know.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, well, if there's nothing else that you'd like to add at this time, I want to thank you for taking time out of your afternoon.

LEVY: Okay. Well, I hope I've been helpful.

FERNHEIMER: This has been tremendously helpful.

LEVY: Okay, good, good.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, uh, w-- wonderful to hear about all the different stores downtown. Uh, serious that we'll h-- we'll have you draw it out.

LEVY: It was. Yeah, I'll try to, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And get that into the digital record.

LEVY: Okay. I'll try to. I'll get some help from some people.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, because that--yeah. Uh, plan to recruit Mike Ades and a couple others to help.

LEVY: Mike will remember. He'll remember a lot of places too.

FERNHEIMER: And I think Janice Crane will know some.

LEVY: Yeah. Mike's father had--grandfather had a, uh, wholesale clothing, uh, wholesale--

FERNHEIMER: So the A-- was it called Ades?

LEVY: Ades. Ades. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So that's another one w--

LEVY: The building--the building, uh, it's a restaurant in it, Jewish fellow owns downtown on Main Street, uh, oh gosh, uh.

FERNHEIMER: Right now?

LEVY: Yes. I'm trying to think of his name. He's in--

FERNHEIMER: Oh, Natasha's. No.

LEVY: No. Natasha's. It's a big building. It's on Main Street. Golly.

FERNHEIMER: The tall one? The--

LEVY: --well, it--no, it's about three, four stories.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: Applebee's is in it.

FERNHEIMER: Applebee's downtown.

LEVY: Applebee. The company that runs Applebee's.

FERNHEIMER: Oh. Oh. Oh.

LEVY: Is in it. It's, uh, right near Kentucky Theatre across the street from the Kentucky Theatre. Up a little bit east. A redbrick building. It was wholesale. Had all kinds of wholesale stuff. That was Mike's father's place.

FERNHEIMER: And it's not off Esplanade.

LEVY: No.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: It's on past Esplanade. It was a restaurant and Jewish fellow owns it. I can't--me and my memory.

FERNHEIMER: Portofino?

LEVY: Yes. Yeah, that building was Mike Ades's grandfather's building. And father. But grandfather.

FERNHEIMER: Huh.

LEVY: And he had--he did wholesale everything. All kinds of stuff from clothing to things, you know, tissue, everything.

FERNHEIMER: And was it discount or was it--

LEVY: --no, it was wholesale.

FERNHEIMER: It was wholesale.

LEVY: Yeah, sold it to other stores.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Were there any discount stores downtown?

LEVY: No, not really.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

LEVY: I don't think so. They may have said they were but they weren't.

FERNHEIMER: No. Okay.

LEVY: (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you so much, Erle. I really appreciate it.

LEVY: Okay.

FERNHEIMER: Uh.

LEVY: Okay, hit off?

FERNHEIMER: I think, uh, we'll get it off in a second.

M: You're good to go whenever.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay, thank you. Thank you so much.

LEVY: Thank you.

FERNHEIMER: This was great.

LEVY: I hope.

FERNHEIMER: It was.

LEVY: I added something.

FERNHEIMER: You did. Where you--

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