Interview with Harriet Rose, August 13, 2015

(off-topic conversation; not transcribed)

[01:37]

FERNHEIMER: Hello. Today is August 13th, 2015. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I am Director of Jewish Studies here at the University of Kentucky, and it is my great honor and pleasure to interview Ms. Harriet Rose, um, as part of the JHFE Jewish Kentucky Oral History Collection. Um, and I'm going to preface the 00:02:00beginning of my questions by saying that I know that Ms. Rose was interviewed earlier, in the '80s, and, in fact, her c-- her interview lives in the online portion of the Louie B. Nunn collection of Jewish Lexington Community, or Lexington Jewish Community. I should've checked that. Um, And so some of these questions maybe cover some of the same ground, but I'm gonna ask them and move kind of quickly past them, um, so that we can go a little bit deeper into some other aspects. Um, can you state your name, uh, at birth, and when and where you were born?

ROSE: My name at birth was Harriet Grace Abraham. I was born in Shelbyville, Kentucky, September 13th, 1920.

FERNHEIMER: And what were your parents' names and occupations?

ROSE: Isadore and Hilda--Isadore Abraham and Hilda Rosenthal. Her occupation 00:03:00was having me. My father was, at that time, a, a rapid calculator on the tobacco market.

FERNHEIMER: A rapid calculator. What does that mean?

ROSE: Well, he-- Well, that was before people had calculators, and he was a--he followed the auctioneers around and, in his head, figured out what the farmers were going to get for the tobacco. And he was very, very bright, and could multiply the numbers on freight trains as they went by.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

ROSE: Gave me an awful complex. I thought only men could do that. Found out later that wasn't true.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. And did your parents, um, and/or grandparents change their 00:04:00name-- I guess when--how did your--let's start one more question back: how, how did they come to live in Shelbyville?

ROSE: My grandmother was born in, uh, St. Louis. My grandfather was born in Germany, and came to this country-- I'm sorry, I don't have the dates in my head, but i-in the 1800s. Why he went to St. Louis, nobody's quite sure. But at any rate, her--

FERNHEIMER: --and what was his name?

ROSE: Hmm?

FERNHEIMER: Your grandfather's?

ROSE: Oh, Jacob Abraham.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: Her name was Teresa Roman. Uh, she had brothers who didn't quite approve of her dating a greenhorn.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: And he got tired of having his brothers-in-law tell him what to do, so he moved to Louisville. Why, I'm not sure, but he had trained as a butcher in 00:05:00Germany, and he found that there was no slaughterhouse or butcher shop in Shelbyville. So he, his wife, and his first two children moved to, uh, Shelbyville, whereupon he had ten more children.

FERNHEIMER: So he had a total of twelve children?

ROSE: Yes. But that--

FERNHEIMER: --do you know all--

ROSE: --his, his father in Germany had fifteen. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Wow. And do you know all their names?

ROSE: I know everything about them. I'm, I'm in the process of writing a book.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, wonderful.

ROSE: And my helper on the book got into all kinds of genealogy, which really wasn't my intention--(laughs)--but I know a lot about, about my family.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. D-d-do you know the names off the top of your head, or do you 00:06:00have to look in your book?

ROSE: Oh, I know the names.

FERNHEIMER: Could you sh-- would you share them with us?

ROSE: Uh-- Uh-- Itzka- Itz---

FERNHEIMER: Itzhak?

ROSE: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: Abraham.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: And her name was Rosa.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, Abraham's wife, or--?

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: And that was my great-grandfather and grandmother. And my--you want to know all those fifteen children? (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: I'm curious, yeah.

ROSE: Well, there was-- I wish I'd brought the book with me.

FERNHEIMER: That's okay. If you don't--if you don't remember off the top of your head, we can do follow-up. That's okay, too.

ROSE: Oh, good.

FERNHEIMER: Uh--

ROSE: Um--

FERNHEIMER: But I am curious. And they were all in Louisville? Or they were--

ROSE: --no.

FERNHEIMER: --they were in Shelbyville?

ROSE: They, they were--they were all in Germany.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: And--but most of them came to this country. They did not come to 00:07:00Kentucky, however.

FERNHEIMER: They--

ROSE: --one uncle did, Oscar.

FERNHEIMER: Oscar, and his last name was Abraham?

ROSE: Uh-huh.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: Ha-- Hancha, and they lived in Harrisburg, and they had three children. All of them are dead.

FERNHEIMER: And they must--and they came in the--what year?

ROSE: In the 1860s.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Wow. So your family's been in Kentucky for quite some time.

ROSE: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Do you have siblings? And if so, what are their names and ages relative to you?

ROSE: I had a sister. Her name was Vivian Abraham Marx Shreburg. (laughs) She's dead. My brother has just moved from Louisville to Florida. His name is Irvin J. Abraham. He married a lovely girl named Joanne, and they had two 00:08:00children. My sister had two children, two sons. I had two sons. None of us followed the family--(laughs)--example with multiple children.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And-- Wow. (laughs) Yeah, from twelve to two, it's a big difference. (both laugh) Um, and so you grew up here, in Kentucky.

ROSE: Yes. I'm--we moved to Lexington when I was four.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood, and growing up here? Where did you go to school--?

ROSE: All right. I lived first on Aurora Avenue --

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --and then on 101 Victory--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --and then at 196 North Ashland, across the street from Ashland School--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --and that was my elementary school and my kindergarten. And the temple, Adath Israel, was right up the street. So my earliest memory is going to Sunday school.

FERNHEIMER: When did you start going to Sunday school?

ROSE: I think I was probably five.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. And did your family go--did they have Friday night services then, or Sat--

ROSE: --yes.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: It was an--it was a really reform temple. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: And did your family go on Friday nights, or--?

ROSE: My father couldn't be bothered much. His father said to him, "As soon as you can, you join the temple." My grandfather went to Louisville, uh, to temple in Louisville, but he also had services in Shelbyville for the--a few of the 00:10:00Jewish families. My grandmother had two sisters who moved to Shelbyville: um, Mary Sanders and N-Nettie Gorman. Nettie Sanders had three or four children, and, and two of, um, the Gormans-- I, I'm doing this badly. Nettie Gorman, 00:11:00Mary Sanders, and Teresa Roman were sisters.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. And Teresa was your grandmother, right?

ROSE: Yes. And her mother came to live with them, with my grandmother.

FERNHEIMER: So their mother, all three of their mother, came to live with your grandmother, Teresa.

ROSE: Right.

FERNHEIMER: And their m-- okay. In Shelbyville.

ROSE: N-- yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: Mary died. Nettie and her family went back to St. Louis.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. And Teresa stayed with your grandfather in St.--

ROSE: --yes, for--

FERNHEIMER: --s-- and so--

ROSE: --all those years. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: --they had all come from St. Louis to Shelbyville, but you don't know why.

ROSE: Oh, I--Grandma came because Grandpa came. (both laugh)

FERNHEIMER: Right.

ROSE: And, and they stayed there until Grandpa died, and there was a--we have a headline from the, from the Shelbyville paper after Grandpa died, and my uncle 00:12:00Adolf and my aunt Rosaline Gertrude and my grandmother moved to Lexington. It was called "The Passing of the House of Abraham."

FERNHEIMER: Ah. I, I've heard of this story, and I don't know if it was from your earlier interview, or through another interview that--

ROSE: --I didn't--some of it I didn't even know when I was interviewed before.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. Um, so it sounds like--okay, so once you got from Shelbyville to Lexington you got settled very close to where the synagogue lives--or the temple.

ROSE: The temple.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, here--I know here the distinction--

ROSE: --you know the difference?

FERNHEIMER: I know the difference. There's a big difference, and I'm not confused.

ROSE: Okay. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Um, but, uh, the temple, uh, is where you all lived very close, and--

ROSE: --yes.

FERNHEIMER: --so you started going to Sunday school from a pretty young age. Does your family go to services? Can you tell me a little bit about your family's relationship to Judaism as you were a child?

ROSE: My mother was, uh, very involved. My father was not very involved. His 00:13:00favorite statement about going to temple was, "I just hate all, all those gettin' ups and gettin' downs." (both laugh) But we belonged because that was our identification. And also, my father's brother, Morris, and his wife, Gertrude, already lived here, and so did Betty and Barney Miller, my father's sister. So it was just appropriate for us to join the temple.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. So you had both--you had family already involved at the temple.

ROSE: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: And were there other families who were not blood related that your family did holidays or other things with, or--?

ROSE: The temple was very small at that point, and the Jewish holidays we all celebrated together.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: I thought they were all kin to me.

FERNHEIMER: Oh. (laughs)

ROSE: I was--

FERNHEIMER: --did they have celebrations at the temple itself, or--?

ROSE: Well, uh, we had a Seder at the temple. In fact, I didn't know what a home seder was until I got married and moved--went to Cleveland, and after that we had a home seder.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow.

ROSE: When I came back here.

FERNHEIMER: When you say your mom was really involved with the temple, what did that mean?

ROSE: Well, women made the temple run, the sisterhood. She was president of the sisterhood. She was president of the National Conference of Jewish Women--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --Council, Council of Jewish Women.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: And we spent-- I remember rolling matzo balls in the kitchen where mother was, and Mrs. Fire, and her maid. Everybody did the same things. We had 00:15:00a congregational dinner once a year, and mother was very often chairman. (both laugh)

FERNHEIMER: Of the dinner?

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: And what about--can you tell me about, a little bit, the role of Jewish traditions in your childhood? W-were they all temple-related, or were there family traditions?

ROSE: Oh, the family had many traditions, but, as I said, they were Reform Jews, and aggressively Reform, I think. My grandmother was a second generation in America, and-- This is complicated, but my grandmother's brother married my mother's-- My mother came from a family called Rosenthal.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: There were six or seven children in that family. Kerry Rosenthal married Al Roman, so they w-- we--we are double cousins with some of them. Um, mother was a niece to Aunt Kerry and Al Roman, so she knew the Abrahams--

FERNHEIMER: --bef-- bef--

ROSE: --well, before they were Mama and Papa they were Aunt Teresa and Uncle Jake to her. My father met my mother when he went to his sister's funeral. She married somebody in St. Louis, and, and during the war, the First World War, she died of the flu. She was pregnant. And so when he in--went to St. Louis, he, 00:17:00he met the prettiest wom-- girl he'd ever seen, he said, my mother, and they were married two years after that.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. And so after--they married in St. Louis, and--

ROSE: --yes.

FERNHEIMER: --and then they moved to Shelbyville.

ROSE: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: And then they moved to Lexington.

ROSE: And Frankfort was in there s-- for a while.

FERNHEIMER: In between?

ROSE: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, what did your parents teach you about Judaism?

ROSE: I don't know. I was confirm-- I went to Sunday school every Sunday. Everybody did that we knew. Uh, if some--if a, a child didn't come to Sunday school, he was either sick or his parents went out of town. It was just what we did on Sunday morning.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: And we were confirmed. Um, I was confirmed with three other girls. In 00:18:00the temple there are the pictures of all our confirmation classes. Have you seen them?

FERNHEIMER: I have seen.

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: It's pretty remarkable, actually.

ROSE: Well, I, I, I thought that was just the way it went, and it was. Uh, Louisville was just like that with the Reform Jews. What my f-- family taught me about Judaism? Everything I knew, I guess, but it was all temple-related. It was--I knew the holidays. We observed the holidays, the whole--the Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Nobody ever fasted. My mother was confirmed in St. Louis in, in a Reform temple. There were only two intermarriages in the--all those twelve Abraham children. One was to an Orthodox woman--(both laugh)--and 00:19:00the other was to a Baptist. And, and so it didn't make any difference, except my cousin Leonard was a son of the Orthodox woman, and he was instructed when he had bacon at my grandfather's house to tell his other grandfather it was corn beef.

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) That's pretty awesome.

ROSE: Nobody kept kosher.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, any--is there any one particular, particularly vivid memory from your childhood that you'd like to share?

ROSE: I've many vivid memories. Uh, do you have any, any--do you have Vivian Wheel on your list of--to be interviewed?

FERNHEIMER: Uh, not yet. Tell me about Vivian.

ROSE: Well, Vivian's family was Orthodox, but she married David Wheel--

FERNHEIMER: --mm.

ROSE: --who was--whose grandmother played cards with my grandmother five nights 00:20:00a week. And--

FERNHEIMER: --what kind of cards did they play?

ROSE: I guess it was gin--it was rummy, but it wasn't gin at that point. They didn't know that. And I don't know what else. But David Moore, his brother, would bring Mammy Isaacs to my grandmother's house, and they played cards. And, and their mother, Edith Wheel, was my Sunday school teacher. She was the principal of the Sunday school. Her husband had died during the war, and she and her mother and two sons lived here, and she was from Louisville, so she really made the Jewishness in the Sunday school.

FERNHEIMER: Ah, so she, she was kind of the force behind it.

ROSE: Yes, she was definitely the force behind the Sunday school that I grew up in. In fact, she drew maps of the Fertile Crescent, and, and when--the first time I went to Israel, I wrote a postcard saying, "I'm walking on what you told me about all those years." She was frequently my Sunday school teacher, because there were volunteers who taught, and wherever there was a vacancy she taught. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: How many students were in your Sunday school class? You said you were confirmed with three--

ROSE: --three, four--

FERNHEIMER: --three other women, so were you--

ROSE: --um-hm, no boys.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

ROSE: And we knew who--

FERNHEIMER: --and who were the women? Just so we know. Uh--

ROSE: Uh, well, they're all dead. Um, Helen Ades --I think she's dead--Miriam Blum, and Judy Wheel.

FERNHEIMER: So she--Judy Wheel was the daughter of Edith Wheel? No.

ROSE: No, there was a different fa-- they were related, but it wasn't--

FERNHEIMER: --the same family.

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, so four--so you and three other women all the way, all those years.

ROSE: We were girls. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

ROSE: We didn't get to be women till we were grown up. (both laugh)

FERNHEIMER: That's pretty amazing. Um, well, if there's not one particular thing, sit on it, and maybe something will come.

ROSE: Oh, confirmation. Uh, the temple got--well, I adored our rabbi, Milton Grafman. He came the year before I was confirmed, I think.

FERNHEIMER: And that would've been what year?

ROSE: I was twelve. Thirty-two.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. So he came in 1932.

ROSE: Yeah. I don't know how much you want to know, but my friends were mostly Gentile, because all my schoolmates were. None of the three girls that were my Sunday schoolmates were in the same class with me. I skipped a lot, and I looked a little older, and when Rabbi Grafman came and apportioned us to classes, he didn't know what to do with me, and the older girls didn't want me in that class, so he put me in the class where I was the same age but not the same grade. And I went--I, when I went to high school--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --at Henry Clay, I found out I was different, because all my people I had 00:24:00been associated with, the Gentiles, went into clubs, and I wasn't invited.

FERNHEIMER: Was it that you weren't invited, or were you not allowed? There's a slight difference.

ROSE: Well, they didn't invite me. I, I suppose I wasn't allowed, but it was the first time I found out I was different--

FERNHEIMER: --mm.

ROSE: --from them.

FERNHEIMER: What--

ROSE: --I was pretty, and I was smart, and I was one of them up to that point. And that was a great shock. It was the first time being Jewish meant anything disagreeable.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: And the rabbi was a tremendous help, and--

FERNHEIMER: --Rabbi Grafman.

ROSE: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And where did he come from? He was here for a short while, and then he moved to Alabama, right?

ROSE: Well, it was--it felt like a long time. He was here from, from '32 to 00:25:00'41, '42, maybe.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

ROSE: And for us, to have a rabbi that stayed that long was remarkable.

FERNHEIMER: Was it unusual?

ROSE: Yes, it was. Most--we're so close to Hebrew Union College--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --that we usually got a graduate, um, who stayed a year or so.

FERNHEIMER: And then moved on to--

ROSE: --uh-huh.

FERNHEIMER: --somewhere else. Hmm.

ROSE: He was the first of our long-time rabbis.

FERNHEIMER: And what did he do to help you--? It sounds like--would it be fair to characterize your treatment in high school as your first experience with anti-Semitism?

ROSE: Yeah, I think so. That was my first experience.

FERNHEIMER: And was there other--was that the first of other experiences to come, or was--

ROSE: --oh we duplicated it when we got to college.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: I went to--I-- I--there was no possibility of my going away to school, 00:26:00except that I scored the highest score on the Kentucky Classification Battery, which was given to all the high school seniors in Kentucky. And I hadn't hit a lick, really, in school, and my teachers were very surprised, and I was very surprised, too. And I was a singer, and I won--I got a superior in the state contest. So Brenau College in Gainesville, Georgia was converting from a conservatory to a college, and they came and offered me a scholarship. And my father said we couldn't afford it, and then they ra-- they raised the ante, and 00:27:00I went away to school my first--my, my freshman year.

FERNHEIMER: So you went to the conservatory in, in Georgia for the first year?

ROSE: Uh-huh.

FERNHEIMER: And did you finish there?

ROSE: Oh, no. One year was enough. Well, really, my tea-- my voice teacher let me know at the end of that year she was not returning.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: So I was going back, but then it was so simple, I just walked down Euclid Avenue, and then went to the old alumni gym, and arranged a student to come to the university as a transfer student that day. (both laugh)

FERNHEIMER: Wow. And what year was that? When did you start at the University of Kentucky?

ROSE: Well, I graduated high school in '37. I went away in, uh, the fall of '38.

FERNHEIMER: And can you tell me a little bit about your experiences in university at the University of Kentucky? What were your major studies, and what were--

ROSE: --I was a music major, because you didn't-- Well, obviously I was, and you didn't have to take math--(laughter)--and that was great.

FERNHEIMER: And, uh, and what, what were the main activities that you occupied yourself with while in college, aside from your studies? Um--

ROSE: --boys.

FERNHEIMER: Boys. Uh, Jewish boys? Non-Jewish boys? All boys?

ROSE: All, all kind of boys. And I was in the radio. I t-- I told you at the top of McVey Hall--

FERNHEIMER: --uh-huh.

ROSE: --was WBKY, only it wasn't that name then. And I worked there. That was--

FERNHEIMER: What did you do?

ROSE: Well, I was a director of voice music. And I got programs together. And loved it.

FERNHEIMER: So were the programs for the radio show? Did they go--?

ROSE: The radio, yes. We, we broadcast.

FERNHEIMER: And what, what kind of programs did you bring, or did you like to bring?

ROSE: I did, I did one called, uh, Songs of Our Fathers.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

ROSE: It was music, not only Jewish, but, uh, Christian, too.

FERNHEIMER: How did the campus react to hearing these Jewish songs?

ROSE: They never listened.

FERNHEIMER: Oh. (laughs)

ROSE: But some rabbi somewhere did, and he wrote saying it was a wonderful program. "If you're gonna do anything like it, let me know," 'cause he just happened on to it accidentally.

FERNHEIMER: W-- do you remember where he was from, or where--?

ROSE: No, I really don't, and I don't know his name. I just thought it was lovely. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Wow. How long did you do that, the radio programs?

ROSE: I worked there, uh, for th-the three years I was in college.

FERNHEIMER: So you graduated in 1941? Okay.

ROSE: Right.

FERNHEIMER: And you studied music. K-- where did you live? Did you live at home, or did you live on campus?

ROSE: I lived at home. I was a town girl. We lived, at that point, at 432 Hollywood Drive.

FERNHEIMER: And can you describe a typical day in your life as a college student? What did you do? Where did you go? What did you eat? Study? Who did you socialize with? How did you relax?

ROSE: I--well, I walked to school, 'cause it was down, just down Euclid Avenue. Sometimes I had a date for breakfast.

FERNHEIMER: Where would you go to eat?

ROSE: Oh, uh, we didn't go to eat. We just had a date. (both laugh) As a matter of fact, it was--the music and art and drama departments were in a building, a little frame building, which burned later, and they--then they moved 00:31:00to Singletary. But, um, I associated with the people in the music department. The--we all took the same courses.

FERNHEIMER: So there was a strong cohort.

ROSE: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: And did you eat mostly with your family at home, or were there--were there cafeterias on campus? Tell me what campus was like. It's hard to imagine. Uh, it looks different every day right now.

ROSE: Well, it looked the same for a long time. (laughter) You know where Alumni Gym is?

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Or was.

ROSE: Was. May--it may not be now. It was right around there. We took classes. Oh, and, and some of-- I-- The Taylor Education Building--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --were some of our classes, and, uh, eh, wherever arts and sciences were taught. Uh, Miller Hall, I know I had languages there.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: I took French and German, both. Later German. I, I graduated in '41. I came back in '60, and got my master's and PhD.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. In what field?

ROSE: Counseling psychology.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. And then you went on to direct the counseling center here--

ROSE: And testing center, um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: From when to when did you do that? So three degrees from UK.

ROSE: Yeah. I'm-- (laughs) I was an undergraduate, graduate student, a faculty member, and an administrator--

FERNHEIMER: --wow, so a long--

ROSE: --I knew the whole place.

FERNHEIMER: You knew it inside and out.

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Um, but back to when you were an undergraduate as a student, uh, or a student as an undergraduate, um, I know--you've mentioned in your earlier interview that you were involved with Hillel, and--

ROSE: --well, Hillel--the temple made a real effort with Jewish students. We went to temple Friday nights. We had dances after temple, and--

FERNHEIMER: --this was for the University of Kentucky college students?

ROSE: Yes, and Transylvania.

FERNHEIMER: And Transylvania. So you guys came together to socialize at the temple.

ROSE: Yes. We didn't--the, the synagogue people, and we did not socialize much.

FERNHEIMER: So Hillel was mostly a Reform Jewish affair? Affair isn't the right word.

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Uh, organization at that time?

ROSE: I don't know why it was, but Hillel was here. There were students-- We 00:34:00paid no attention to who belonged. There were all those boys, and we were girls. And we attracted them. And--

FERNHEIMER: --this is at the dances, or in general?

ROSE: At the dances, and, and, and they came to temple, and they were invited to, uh, Seders and things like that.

FERNHEIMER: How many students would you say participated in Hillel at that time? Or how many Jewish students do you remember on campus at that time?

ROSE: Damn few. Maybe twenty.

FERNHEIMER: Twenty. And, uh, do you remember their names, the ones who came regularly to the dances? How many were at Transylvania, or does the twenty include those at Transylvania, as well?

ROSE: That included them. It was not a Jewish college. It was not a place-- 00:35:00It didn't matter. There was one Jewish professor.

FERNHEIMER: Who was that?

ROSE: Murray Rago. He was the head of Back To Reality. His mother--his wife and my mother were best friends.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. And where did he come from?

ROSE: East somewhere.

FERNHEIMER: So there were twenty students involved with Hillel. Were these the same students who were involved with the Jewish fraternity at the time?

ROSE: Yes. There were, that's all there were.

FERNHEIMER: So there--was there a distinction between ZBT and Hillel?

ROSE: ZBT didn't exist. It was something--it was called something else.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: And it--I think--

FERNHEIMER: --that's right.

ROSE: --for-- it was formed maybe the year I graduated.

FERNHEIMER: And there was a Jewish sorority at one point in time, as well. Was that after you were already gone--

ROSE: --yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --from UK as a student? Okay. And I know you talked a little bit 00:36:00about a debating society--

ROSE: --well, there was a--

FERNHEIMER: --in your last interview.

ROSE: --there was a debating team.

FERNHEIMER: Can you tell--? This was a specifically Hillel debating team. Tell me about that. I'm fascinated.

ROSE: Are you really?

FERNHEIMER: Really.

ROSE: I don't know anything about it, except they were pretty good, but they were all boys.

FERNHEIMER: All boys.

ROSE: Yeah. And--well, girls didn't do things like that.

FERNHEIMER: They didn't do debate.

ROSE: No, not--

FERNHEIMER: --not at that time.

ROSE: --at that time. The reason I talked about that was the University of Michigan sent their Hillel debating time here to bi-- to debate ours. And--

FERNHEIMER: --so it was a big enough thing that there were actual intercollegial debating matches.

ROSE: Right. And one of the guys--uh, I went to that, 'cause I--we went to everything that was Jewish in any way.

FERNHEIMER: Who were the students who did the debating from the UK Hillel? Do 00:37:00you remember?

ROSE: Larry Sherman, I'm sure, was one of them. He and I won--were named the outstanding boy and outstanding girl in Hillel, uh, se-- senior year in college.

FERNHEIMER: So in '41?

ROSE: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And what did that mean, outstanding boy and girl?

ROSE: How do I know? (laughter)

FERNHEIMER: Who d-- who made the decision?

ROSE: I don't know!

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: Might've been Fannie and Sher-- and Sherman Miller. They may have been-- They probably had something to do with it.

FERNHEIMER: F-Fannie and, and Sherman?

ROSE: And Sherman Miller. Um, they had three children. (laughs) Joe Miller, who was a lawyer, and died recent-- fairly recently, and, um, Faith, who died-- 00:38:00Sammy, who is a girl, was lately president of, of the temple. Oh, Fannie Miller was a professor of education, and a very good teacher. And, um, she was very much involved with the youth of the temple. But she came--you know, she wasn't much older than I was, so--

FERNHEIMER: So was she kind of like the staff organizer, or--? I'm trying to think about the models I know from Hillel now.

ROSE: I wouldn't worry with it, 'cause I don't think they were those models. It was a place for socializing, and, obviously, debate, because it was a team.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. And so Larry, Larry Sherman was one of the debaters? Uh, do you recall?

ROSE: I'm sure he was.

FERNHEIMER: Any other names that you can recall? Do you know what s-- what did they debate? What--?

ROSE: I haven't any idea. (laughter) I was this--I was a girl, a music major, social.

FERNHEIMER: And so you went just to observe--

ROSE: --because I--

FERNHEIMER: --or to support?

ROSE: --because that was a thing you did. If there was a pro-- a Jewish program at temple, you went.

FERNHEIMER: So the debate took place at the temple?

ROSE: Yes, it was at the temple. I had a date with somebody else named Harold, uh, Lowenthal. What was his name? (laughs) Hershel, Hershel Lowenthal. One of the boys on the debate team from Michigan wanted--he asked me out that night. I was really pretty. I didn't know it, but I was. And I said, "Well, I have a date. May-- maybe you could go with us." And Hershel said no, he couldn't go with us. (both laugh) So he went back to the hotel and wrote me a letter, and 00:40:00we corresponded. He--

FERNHEIMER: --this is the gentleman from Michigan.

ROSE: Irving Ziger.

FERNHEIMER: Irving Ziger?

ROSE: Uh-huh. This is a long story. (laughs) And he in Michig-- I was a senior, he was a senior. We were out of school. Senior week was still to be in Michigan. He wrote me and asked me to come. And my mother talked--he talked to my mother, and, and I went to Michigan for senior week, had a lovely time. We wrote for years. Then I went to Mason County, Maysville, to teach music.

FERNHEIMER: After you graduated.

ROSE: And I stayed there a year and a half. They were paying me almost 00:41:00nothing. And I was dating men on the tobacco market, and mother didn't like that, so-- And my sister, who wasn't--who hadn't gotten a degree, went to work in the war for Air Service Command in Dayton, and she was making more money than I was--(laughs)--and my mother didn't like whom I was dating. And anyway, so I took the civil serv-- servi-- service exam, and I ace exams, always, so I got a job making more than Vivian was in, in Dayton, Ohio. We went to the Jewish community center the first night I was in Dayton. She was--had been there. I met some guys, and I had three dates as a result of that night. (laughter) And one of them was from Cleveland. And I said, "Oh, did you know Irv Ziger? 00:42:00'Cause I met him in this way." And he went out with Stanley Rosen-- his name was Rosenberg at that time--and said, "There's a cute new Jewish girl in town, and, and she knows Irv Ziger," who was Stan's friend. I assumed-- Oh, he called me to go out. I assumed--

FERNHEIMER: --the boy you met? Do you remember his name?

ROSE: Oh, no.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: He didn't--he didn't matter. (both laugh) He was--you d-- probably don't know, but in those days you dated everybody who asked you until you got a ring on your finger. That was your major goal in life, to get married. What else could you do? You could teach school or you could get married? So--

FERNHEIMER: --you could probably have babies. That was also probably an option, but only after you got married, generally.

ROSE: I--mostly it was afterwards. (laughs) Um, I told--I wrote to Irv--I was 00:43:00still corresponding with him, and saying I was going to Dayton to work for Service Command. He wrote back and said, "You'll probably meet Stan Rosenberg. He's one of Cleveland's best." When Stan called me, I assumed Irv had written to him, too. He hadn't. He just got this recommendation of a cute new Jewish girl in town. Well, eleven weeks later we got married.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

ROSE: He was a, a nice boy from a Reform family, and he had good table manners, which lots of people didn't, and it was a war.

FERNHEIMER: So he--but he has no connection to the debating society, other than that you met the other guy--

ROSE: --through him.

FERNHEIMER: --uh, uh, Zigert, uh--

ROSE: --Ziger.

FERNHEIMER: --Ziger, Ziger, Irv Ziger--

ROSE: --um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: --was the debater from the University of Michigan. Okay, now I can understand--

ROSE: --um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: --how the debating society was a pretty important thing.

ROSE: It really wasn't, but it w-- it worked out nicely in my life.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. And so you don't remember the topics or anyone else, other than Larry Sherman, who debated. Were they d-- just--do you know if they debated other Hillel debating teams because they--? Were they allowed, or did they debate other non-Jewish groups?

ROSE: I presume they did.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: The debate was a pretty big thing on the UK campus at that time.

FERNHEIMER: Were there many societies who participated in debate at that time? Or was it f-- in the fraternities or sororities? Just--?

ROSE: In the fraternity I never knew what they did.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm. This is very interesting. I will--I'm going to do some research and follow up on this. (laughs) Um, can you tell me, uh, I guess--

ROSE: --Larry Sherman's son is in town still, Harold.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And he plays music.

ROSE: Yes. Larry did, too.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, were, were there other organizations you were involved with, or did Hillel take up all of your time?

ROSE: There were even honoraries in music who didn't invite me. In fact, my Gentile friends said, "If, if you're not inviting Harriet, we're not joining."

FERNHEIMER: So, different from your experience from high school.

ROSE: Yes. Well, I didn't tell you about my first year of college.

FERNHEIMER: No. Tell me.

ROSE: At Brenau College there were only six Jewish girls, and none of them--

FERNHEIMER: --this was in Georgia.

ROSE: --came from my kind of Jews.

FERNHEIMER: So they weren't Reform. They were--

ROSE: --no. I was rushed by several sororities. I assumed everybody knew I 00:46:00was Jewish. My name was Abraham. And there was a girl I'd graduated from high school with there. Uh, I loved Alpha Gamma Delta, and they loved me, and they invited me to join.

FERNHEIMER: This is--

ROSE: --and the next day they uninvited me, because you had to say you believed in Jesus Christ as your savior, and I wouldn't say that. So I was in a--I was welcome with them, and they really sincerely did make me welcome at everything except sorority functions. But nobody. Well, in high school I didn't--nobody 00:47:00was still my friend.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: They were still my friends, but I'd had this experience over and over.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: And--

FERNHEIMER: And that sorority experience, that was at UK or that was in Georgia?

ROSE: U-- no, that was in Georgia.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: At UK, I never went near sororities.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: And couldn't have if I'd wanted to. That was pre-title anything. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: And we were, uh-- I was still pretty. I dated a lot.

FERNHEIMER: Jewish? Non-Jewish? Did it matter?

ROSE: Both.

FERNHEIMER: D-- was that a distinction you made when it--when you were dating? Did it ma--

ROSE: --no, and my p-- my parents didn't, either.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: In fact--

FERNHEIMER: --so the tobacco men that your mom didn't like in Maysville, it was that they did tobacco, th-- not that they were not Jewish.

ROSE: It, it was just as--they were without their wives, and--

FERNHEIMER: --mm.

ROSE: --and, uh, things happened. Um, there was a graduate student who was Jewish, and we had a romance. But as I said, you dated everybody who asked you. There was no such thing as going steady in those times. In fact, he went--he got to be very famous. He was a musician, and he was awarded something big three or four years ago. And I looked him up on Google and called him up. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: What's his name?

ROSE: His name was Marvin Rabin. And I thought he was coming through the 00:49:00telephone, he was so glad to hear from me. And we were, at that point, ninety and ninety-three.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

ROSE: He said, "Well, I've got to see you." I said, "You must be kidding. I don't travel anymore." He said, "Well, I'm coming to Lexington," and he did.

FERNHEIMER: Where was--where did he live? Where did he travel from?

ROSE: Uh, Madison.

FERNHEIMER: Wisconsin?

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

ROSE: Yeah. He had his son bring him down here. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: And that was just three years ago? Four years ago.

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Three years?

ROSE: Yeah, he died last year.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. But--

ROSE: It was lovely.

FERNHEIMER: To see him. And so he was here during that time, as well. He was at UK.

ROSE: Yes, and with Depression, dating meant maybe you went to, uh, Wing's Tea House.

FERNHEIMER: Where was that?

ROSE: It was downtown. It was the only Chinese restaurant. It had terrible food, but we didn't know it. We thought it was great. And it was the 00:50:00grandfather of the Wing now that has a restaurant. He fed lots of boys from the east who, who were broke, at that time, and he even allowed them to take their dates there, have dinner, and Marvin was one of those. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Wow. Wing's? Wing's? How is it spelled? W-i-n-g?

ROSE: Uh-huh. Wing's Tea House.

FERNHEIMER: And where's the restaurant now that the grandson owns?

ROSE: I'm not sure where it is. It was on the, on, uh, the beltline for a long time, but down--it was--it was on the second floor of a building at the corner of Main Street and Upper--

FERNHEIMER: --uh-huh.

ROSE: --South, when I was allowed to go there. But you said did it matter 00:51:00whether they were Jewish or not. When a Jewish boy from the synagogue invited me to go to the movies--

FERNHEIMER: --the synagogue, not the temple.

ROSE: --right--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --I said, "I'll have to ask my mother." And my mother asked my Aunt Betty, because the family was--every, every--they were nosy to every degree. And then Betty said, "Oh, Hilda, you don't want her to get mixed up with those kids."

FERNHEIMER: And was it because they were more rel--

ROSE: --Orthodox.

FERNHEIMER: More religious.

ROSE: You do know that there was a time after Reform Jews came here and got established when the Jews from Eastern Europe began to come that never the twain met.

FERNHEIMER: Right. And that was true here in Lexington, as well.

ROSE: Oh, boy. It was very true.

FERNHEIMER: So the only time you asked your mother for permission about dating was about a boy in the synagogue, as opposed to someone who wasn't Jewish--

ROSE: --he was the first boy who ever invited--well, no, a Gentile boy that had taken me to the movies before that. (both laugh)

FERNHEIMER: Oh. But that wasn't an issue. That wasn't something you needed to ask your mom--

ROSE: --he came--we went on the bus down to-- Well, he--it didn't make any difference that he wasn't, wasn't Jewish. We were children.

FERNHEIMER: How old were you when you had your--

ROSE: --well, I was fourteen when this conversation with Aunt Betty took place.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: And probably I was ten or twelve. The movie that I went to with the Gentile boy on the bus--

FERNHEIMER: --yes.

ROSE: --was Dracula. For years I spent--I was under the seat most of the time, 'cause it was so scary, and for years I slept with a blanket over my throat. I should never have gone to that movie. (both laugh)

FERNHEIMER: Uh, um-- So did you continue to go to the movies on your dates in college? Was that also part of it, that--?

ROSE: That's probably all we did, uh, and then we went to dances.

FERNHEIMER: Dances. And so--

ROSE: --uh-huh.

FERNHEIMER: --you talked a little bit about the dances. The dances were organized by Hillel? Organized by the temple, but they took--

ROSE: --organized by the temple. Somebody played the piano and we danced.

FERNHEIMER: And it was mostly the kids from the university who would go--

ROSE: --and Transy.

FERNHEIMER: --and Transy, who would go over. And so--

ROSE: --and the--

FERNHEIMER: --how did the temple reach out to the Hillel students? Did they ha-- was--

ROSE: --uh, we probably had a rabbi who, who, uh, who got some of his salary, maybe, from Hillel.

FERNHEIMER: So he was part of this national--

ROSE: --yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --organization. Do you remember who the rabbi was then? No.

ROSE: I know who the--all the rabbis were, but which--well, that was still--

FERNHEIMER: --which one--

ROSE: --Grafman.

FERNHEIMER: It was still Grafman.

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. So, um-- Wow. I guess how would you--this is kind of a big question, but how would you say your time at UK--and you have quite a bit of time at UK, uh, in different capacities--impacted your Jewish identity?

ROSE: It didn't.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Not at all.

ROSE: No. I--my Jewish identity was established at the temple.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: That was-- My husband and I were very active in the temple. I taught Sunday school from the time I was fifteen.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

ROSE: I sang in the choir all the time, until I left here. And I belonged. I still am an ardent temple member, not goer. I, I go to things that interest me 00:55:00now. But one of my earliest memories was my mother was program chairman for sisterhood. We four little girls were dressed in boyel, and doing a, a dance called the Four Seasons. I was spring. (both laugh)

FERNHEIMER: Who were the other girls? Who--

ROSE: The ones in my Sunday school class.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. Wow. So temple really was the big forma-- forma-- formative experience.

ROSE: Yes, it was, and it--it was our Jewish identity.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: It-- Everybody-- Our parents had some Jewish friends, but not, not first-class Gentiles. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: What does that mean?

ROSE: Not the horsey set, or--

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: Although my friends had been the children of the horsey set. When I got to high school they weren't anymore.

FERNHEIMER: They weren't the--the--well, they weren't your friends, or they--?

ROSE: They weren't my friends.

FERNHEIMER: I see. So up until high school it was--

ROSE: --when--then you--

FERNHEIMER: --there was--

ROSE: --when we began to be nubile, uh, class took over, religious class. We were probably-- We certainly were not rich, but even the rich Jews' children were s-- they were street friendships, not, uh--

FERNHEIMER: --like acquaintances.

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm. So you talked a little bit about anti-Semitism in high school. Did you have any of those experiences at UK, as well?

ROSE: Really not.

FERNHEIMER: Um, so it sounds like the temple took you off campus when you were 00:57:00at UK. How would you describe Jewish life in Lexington at that time?

ROSE: As far as I was concerned, it was lovely. I dated everybody.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, what would you say-- What advice, I guess, would you give to Jewish students who are enrolled at UK today?

ROSE: Well, quite different a-advice.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

ROSE: And I wouldn't have to give it to them. I mean, there, there is a Jewish society here now.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Um--

ROSE: --I thought when I was young, uh, if they were Jewish, they were okay. I didn't-- How can I say this? They didn't have to be smart or mannerly or 00:58:00anything. They were just like a member of the family.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And do you feel differently now?

ROSE: Yes, I'm very selective. (both laugh) Of course I am.

FERNHEIMER: And--

ROSE: --as a--as a matter of fact, all my friends, my real friends, are Jewish, but my scars from those early days didn't begin to go away until graduate school, I guess.

FERNHEIMER: Really?

ROSE: I always let people know quickly that I was Jewish, 'cause I didn't want to be hurt by anything they said.

FERNHEIMER: Mm. So you've talked a little bit about your relationship, or the fact that Rabbi Grafman was the rabbi during this very formative period for you, um, and in your earlier interview you mentioned you were very fond of him, and 00:59:00actually you did--

ROSE: --oh, very.

FERNHEIMER: --to-- today, as well. Could you tell me a little bit more about your relationship with him, and maybe provide a kind of character sketch of him?

ROSE: Character sketch of him-- He was-- He, he didn't allow himself to be dictated to by the powers that be at temple, although he left--when he left, he left because of money, and when he left in '42 there wasn't any money, but he could--he went to Birmingham, and stayed for the rest of his life. Every--well, I can't say everybody adored him, but those of us--uh, the kids adored him. And 01:00:00he and his lovely wife had good friends. They would've been between my f-- parents' generation and mine in age.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: He was, uh-- He talked about Nazism before anybody knew what was happening in Germany.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: In 1937, he was talking about it.

FERNHEIMER: How did he know, or did he have family?

ROSE: I don't know. Maybe from union, the union, uh, or CCAR. You know what that is?

FERNHEIMER: CCAR?

ROSE: Central Conference of American Rabbis.

FERNHEIMER: C-- Rabbis, okay, yes, I do know.

ROSE: I don't know how he knew, but, uh, he was-- W-we knew at the temple what 01:01:00was happening at the temple in Germany--

FERNHEIMER: --mm.

ROSE: --because of him. Maybe for other reasons, too.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. Were there--was there activism, uh, temple on behalf, or in support, or, um, is it just something that you kind of knew about, or--?

ROSE: We knew about it. Uh, my father had a dairy, but--he was in the dairy business. And they--when the Germans could leave, he brought a German family here. He provided employment for, for them.

FERNHEIMER: Was he the sponsor? I know the--

ROSE: --yes, he was the sponsor.

FERNHEIMER: And what family? Do you remember who it was? No. Were they--they were Jewish, I assume?

ROSE: Oh, yes. And there were a number of refugee families that came here.

FERNHEIMER: Mm. Um, did he talk very much about his attitudes about race 01:02:00relations or segregation while he was rabbi?

ROSE: At that point, I don't think any, anything went on, went out about, uh-- I don't think there was a problem about the blacks, the colored people.

FERNHEIMER: In the '40s.

ROSE: Then. My husband was very much involved in race relations. He brought, um, the Urban League to Lexington. He was one of the people who, who wanted things to be different. He also won the brotherhood award for the National Conference of Christians and Jews.

FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. In what year? This is--

ROSE: --well, it was the year before he died. Uh-- Eighty-four.

FERNHEIMER: Eighty-four.

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: And that's Stan, right?

ROSE: Yeah. He was a very civic man. He did--all his do-gooding was public. Mine was private with students and faculty.

FERNHEIMER: In, um, in a recent story in the Forward, um--

ROSE: --yes. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: --you talked a little bit about your experiences with your husband, and--

ROSE: --um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: --uh, the story, for those who would want to look it up, is by Josh Nathan-Kazis, "Which Side Were We ON? Kentucky Slavery, Mine Wars, and Segre-- uh, Segregation." And he talked a little bit about a situation with an African American family, um--

ROSE: --that was our rabbi at that time, uh, Leffler.

FERNHEIMER: Leffler.

ROSE: And, uh, a professor at the university named Sedler.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. And in that article, Nathan Kazis talks about the way the 01:04:00issue divided the temple, um, and, of course, how your husband was--helped bring, uh, the Urban League chapter into the city. And he talked about a party that you hosted that was an integrated party.

ROSE: Yep.

FERNHEIMER: And I was wondering, could you share some details about that? He says--and he quotes you--"I served wine punch." (laughter) But he said it was the first integrated party that you attended. Were, were there--

ROSE: --yes.

FERNHEIMER: --other integrated social functions in the city--

ROSE: --no.

FERNHEIMER: --at the time? And this was in--

ROSE: --no.

FERNHEIMER: --what year? Nineteen sixty-three? Four?

ROSE: I don't really remember the year. At this point, years get all mixed up in, in my life. (laughs) Um, Rabbi--

FERNHEIMER: --I understand

ROSE: --Rabbi Leffler was here for quite a long time.

FERNHEIMER: And he was the rabbi after Milton?

ROSE: N-- oh, no, there have been

FERNHEIMER: Or there's, there's several in between.

ROSE: Several in between. But he stayed a long time. Longer than we really wanted him to stay. (both laugh) Um--

FERNHEIMER: --and why is that? Th-- why did he stay longer, and why is it that the congregation was ready for him--? Was it the congregation that was ready for him to go--

ROSE: --oh, yes.

FERNHEIMER: --or--? Okay.

ROSE: Oh, yes. 'Cause he wasn't-- (laughs) He wa-- he was not a very good rabbi. I don't really-- And I don't remember really why. I just know he, he was a pain in the neck a lot of the time.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: Um-- How did we get to that?

FERNHEIMER: We were talking about the--

ROSE: --oh.

FERNHEIMER: --party that you hosted.

ROSE: The party was--

FERNHEIMER: Who did you invite? H-how--?

ROSE: It--the mem-- there were people who sponsored--who were board members of the Urban League. They, they brought 'em--

FERNHEIMER: And they were African American, or they were white?

ROSE: Some were, were African American, but the ones who wouldn't--mostly didn't come. Their wives certainly didn't. They, when they were organizing the Urban League to get here, they, they put people on the board, invited people on the board, who were l-- first-class Gentiles. (laughs) I always call them the horsey set.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: The, uh, civic leaders, so to speak.

FERNHEIMER: So wealthy whites?

ROSE: Some wealthy. I guess they were wealthy. At that point money seemed not very important.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: Um, they were--would belong to Idle Hour Country Club, some of them, or Lexington Country Club, where Jews weren't, you know--

FERNHEIMER: Allowed.

ROSE: Don't you know that story?

FERNHEIMER: Which story?

ROSE: The story about how we had a country club, and they bought it out from 01:07:00under us?

FERNHEIMER: No, I don't. Tell me about that.

ROSE: Okay.

FERNHEIMER: There was a Jewish country club?

ROSE: It wasn't Jewish, but Lexington Country Club was the social club. Jews were not invited. Um, there--also, Catholics were not terribly welcome. And there was a, a ty-- a gambler from Florida who lived here with his wife who was Catholic. They turned her and him down for membership in Lexington Country Club, so he bought her a country club and called it Ashland Country Club. It was on the--you know where Idle Hour is now?

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: That was Ashland. And many Jews belonged, including my family. And lots 01:08:00of us at that time lived in Fairway. All of us. Us white Jews--excuse that, that horrible thinking, but we--they, they belonged to c-- the country club and played golf there.

FERNHEIMER: And who, who else belongs were--it's not just Jews, but there were Catholics there?

ROSE: Oh, lots, lots of people. Um--

FERNHEIMER: --but no one of color, no African Americ--

ROSE: --n-- well, nobody b--- Nobody of color belonged anywhere--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --at that point. Um, during the war, the--

FERNHEIMER: --the first one?

ROSE: Two.

FERNHEIMER: The second one.

ROSE: I, uh--Lexington Country Club got in financial trouble.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

ROSE: And they admitted some what I call second-class Gentiles. After the war, 01:09:00they wanted to get rid of them, or they didn't want to belong to them anymore. So the horsey set, first class Gentiles, bought--uh, the, the gambler had died. I can't remember his name, but it'll come to me. So they bought I-- uh, what was then Ashland Country Club, and simply didn't renew the membership for the Jews and the--and some other people. There was a man, a builder, who said to my fath-- his name was Ed Gilson--he was dro-- his membership was dropped, as well as ours, and all the Jews. Um--

FERNHEIMER: --so there were quite a number of Jews who were members at Ashland.

ROSE: Yes, lots. Um--

FERNHEIMER: --how many families, would you say?

ROSE: Forty, fifty.

FERNHEIMER: Families? Wow.

ROSE: And Ed Gilson lived in Fairway. In fact, he had built most of Fairway. And he, he bought--he built a road from his house over to Ashland Club so he wouldn't have to even go to Main Street. He could just walk through to play golf. He was dropped. He said to my father, "Izzy, where are us Jews and sons of bitches gonna play golf? I know why dropped you, 'cause you're Jewish. I must just be a plain sonofabitch."

FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Wow. And what year was that? Do you remember?

ROSE: Um--

FERNHEIMER: After the war?

ROSE: Yes, after the war. And Stan and I-- Were we here yet? It was-- We 01:11:00came back in '49, so it was in the early '50s. We weren't members, but my father and mother were. We didn't have any money.

FERNHEIMER: And that, that was before Stan started his business, or when Stan started his business?

ROSE: His business came later.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, so the party came later, then, too.

ROSE: Yes, the party was in the '50s, some-- No, it was in the '60s, 'cause we were in our new house.

FERNHEIMER: And where was your house?

ROSE: Um, 712 Beechmont Road. It's my son's house now. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: --and tell me about the party.

ROSE: Stan came home from a meeting and said, "We've hired a, a, a director for the, uh, Urban League, and we--uh, some of us thought we should have a party to 01:12:00welcome him. And none of the--nobody volunteered. None of the whites volunteered. Would you do it?" And I said, "Of course." So we had a Sunday afternoon reception. My, my maid told me on the day of the party--she knew we were going to do it--that she--she said, "You don't know that I'm, uh, a cousin t-to Harry Sykes's wife, Gwendolyn." And I said no. Harry Sykes was a--the president of the Urban League. They'd asked Stan to be; he said it should be a black man, a colored man, we said at those points. And so Harry Sykes would--who had been a pro basketball player, was the president of the Urban 01:13:00League. And I, of course, invited--I don't know who was invited, 'cause Stan--they took care of who was invited, but certainly the--all the board members were, and their wives. None of the wives came. Some of the board members did. I--it was an integrated party. I had-- (laughs) And I said I served wine punch.

FERNHEIMER: And what did--what did your other friends at temple think about you--

ROSE: --some of them came. They were involved in it. They n-- that was do-gooding, and it--and the temple was always--they were always do-gooders. They were rolling bandages during the war, and, and Stan and Charlie Schwartz, who was the--all those Yankees who came to join us were active in trying to find 01:14:00a--to integrate tow-- the town peacefully instead of the way other people were integrating, with great difficulty.

FERNHEIMER: And what was the--how did they imagine that peaceful integration would take place?

ROSE: Well, Stan went up and down Main Street to all the Jewish merchants, encouraging and--them to hire people on the floor who was col-- who were colored, not just janitors.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Was he successful?

ROSE: And they did. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: They did.

ROSE: Uh-huh.

FERNHEIMER: And w-when did that happen, that they first started hiring--?

ROSE: In the '60s, '50s and '60s.

FERNHEIMER: So late '50s, early '60s.

ROSE: Yeah, when--

FERNHEIMER: --before the national trend.

ROSE: I don't know when, when the national trend started, but we certainly knew 01:15:00that there were problems with integration.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: My son's-- Rick was a senior in high school, maybe a junior when, uh, the schools were integrated. When would that have been? He was born in '45.

FERNHEIMER: So early '60s?

ROSE: He would, um-- Yeah, the early--

FERNHEIMER: --or late '50s?

ROSE: --'60s.

FERNHEIMER: So--

ROSE: And it was a difficult time.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

ROSE: Our colored schools were not so bad, and when we--integration was very hard on people. Not many of the colored teachers went into--were integrated, 01:16:00and so the blacks students had all kinds of feelings, and the white students had all kinds of feelings.

FERNHEIMER: So you said this--the, the teachers of color weren't inc-- weren't part of the integration? So--

ROSE: --some of them were, but not-- Black students did better with black teachers. The teachers said, "You behave or I'll tell your mother," you know. And, and they didn't have the discipline problems in the black schools that the blacks created in the white schools.

FERNHEIMER: What, what do you mean they created? How, how did--? Tell me a little bit about that.

ROSE: They, they-- I don't think the black students res-- for the most part, respected the white teachers. They didn't feel at home. They were miserable.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: And there were many, many discipline problems, and white teachers who left.

FERNHEIMER: And this was in Lexington.

ROSE: In the early '60s.

FERNHEIMER: In--so right about the same time that you were having this party--

ROSE: --yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --was when integration was taking place in the schools.

ROSE: Yep.

FERNHEIMER: And you, your--the friends that you had from temple came to the party.

ROSE: Some of them.

FERNHEIMER: So was there a difference in attitude towards social integration in terms of--

ROSE: --there wasn't--

FERNHEIMER: --shop-keeping or education, or--?

ROSE: There wasn't any social integration. It just didn't happen.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Um, I want to come back to Rabbi Grafman, if you'll allow me, for a minute, 'cause he was--he came to be pretty famous in his own right 01:18:00after he left Lexington--

ROSE: --yes, he did.

FERNHEIMER: --uh, because of the letter that the clergymen wrote to Martin Luther King.

ROSE: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Um, did you keep in touch with him after he, uh, moved to Alabama?

F: Um, can you hold on--

ROSE: --for a while.

F: --one second?

FERNHEIMER: Hang on one second.

F: I need to-- I'm not sure how the card switch--

ROSE: --in fact--

FERNHEIMER: Hold on one second. We're gonna switch cards.

ROSE: Okay.

FERNHEIMER: Sorry about that.

F: I thought that it was supposed to go straight into--

FERNHEIMER: I thought so, too.

ROSE: You're going to edit this, aren't you?

FERNHEIMER: There'll be a little bit of editing.

ROSE: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: You'll have a chance to look at it, as well.

ROSE: I'm sorry--I'm--you know, I'm saying what I think, and--

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, and I'm glad. (both laugh) Uh, I'm really grateful for it, and it's a difficult period of time to talk about, so it's hard for me to ask questions, too, uh, especially since, you know, this is our first meeting out of the field.

ROSE: Yes.

FERNHEIMER: Uh--

ROSE: --well, that's all right.

FERNHEIMER: Uh--

F: Okay.

ROSE: And I'm being as honest as I possibly can, remembering what I remember.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Are we good?

F: Yeah. You--I switched the cards. For some reason it, it didn't continue--

FERNHEIMER: --so do you think we lost some, or no?

F: I'm not one hundred-- I was just looking at it, and then I looked up and it was blinking, so I don't think we lost anything.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. All right.

ROSE: You asked if we kept in touch with Rabbi Grafman. Yes, in, in the beginning, especially. His wife developed tuberculosis, and he knew exactly whom to call to get her admitted to the Julius Marks Sanitarium here. So, uh--and then our temple was always involved in the union meetings, and at one in the temple here there's a picture of our former rabbis altogether at, at one of 01:20:00the conventions. And when we had a--our hundredth anniversary--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --some of them--well, I remember from the seventy-fifth, he came in, he said, "I don't know where the years went, but when I left--his parents was--Iz and Helen were decorating with flowers for the congregational dinner, and I came in and Iz and Helen are still decorating with flowers for, for the dinner we're having."

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: It was, uh-- He loved us, and we loved him. Uh, he was part of us. Can I say that?

FERNHEIMER: Was--yeah. Was he--what, what made him--I mean, there's a ver-- a real warmth that--

ROSE: --yes.

FERNHEIMER: --in the way that you talk about him, and--

ROSE: --well--

FERNHEIMER: --I'm, I'm trying to get at some of the tangibles that, that helped to create that kind of warmth.

ROSE: Well, he established the youth choir, and he was very lucky, 'cause there were some good voices. And, and we got such praise, and we were--

FERNHEIMER: --did you perform publicly, outside of the temple?

ROSE: Oh, no.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: But we did the high holy days.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: And it was a great part of our warmth of feeling, of belonging. He was wonderful with the youth, with-- And he had very good friends with a y-young marriage at that point.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: He was just a very warm guy. And very ethical. Somebody for us to look up to.

FERNHEIMER: So when he--when he signed the letter to Doc-- Dr. Marth-- Martin 01:22:00Luther King, would you say that the kinds of attitudes that he and the other clergy people expressed were shared by a lot of the members of the temple at the time?

ROSE: Not a lot.

FERNHEIMER: Not a lot.

ROSE: They were shared, but if you read what I said in that, uh, foreword--

FERNHEIMER: --I did, I did.

ROSE: --it depended on what kind of threat they were fee-- feeling. And Stan felt no threat from--in his business.

FERNHEIMER: Right. It was a very powerful quote, actually, about--

ROSE: --whose ox was being gored.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And--

ROSE: --um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: --and about the, the way that Stan's work with the junk business wasn't--it didn't--it wasn't impacted by segregation in the same way that someone who was a property owner, who earned their livelihood--

ROSE: --right.

FERNHEIMER: --that, that stood out--

ROSE: --uh-huh.

FERNHEIMER: to me from that article. Uh, and so would you say that--I, I, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Describe a little bit more that kind of s-- the, the ways that you perceived segregation impacting the Jewish community.

ROSE: I don't think it impacted it much. I don't think-- I don't think-- Well, many things were impacting the Jewish community at that time. Uh, the malls were coming, so that what, what had been an up and down Main Street Jewish affair, many businesses went out there or left, went out there or left. Bernie Miller's is the only one still downtown.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: Uh--

FERNHEIMER: --Rosenberg's, also.

ROSE: Oh.

FERNHEIMER: Right? The jeweler?

ROSE: Oh. Well, yeah, one of 'em. There were two Rosenberg families. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: I have heard that story. Right, one Rosenberg is still there. Uh, so, okay, so the malls were impacting, uh, Jewish businesses?

ROSE: Yes, and great changes were occurring. People were not really very worried about the blacks--

FERNHEIMER: --and--

ROSE: --except where they made a fuss.

FERNHEIMER: Who made a fuss? Who's the "they" there?

ROSE: Uh, the blacks, the organizations that took up.

FERNHEIMER: And by "fuss" you mean--? What kind of fuss were they making?

ROSE: Well, Stan was making a fuss. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Well, it sounds like Stan was successful in his fuss, if you're saying--

ROSE: --oh, he was.

FERNHEIMER: --they, they actually began to hire people of color in--

ROSE: --yes.

FERNHEIMER: --salespeople--

ROSE: --a few.

FERNHEIMER: --positions.

ROSE: A few.

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember the stores that were the first to hire?

ROSE: Meyers was one. But Alec, who had been the janitor and the, the helper 01:25:00with parties was put on the floor to sell.

FERNHEIMER: And did he--did--Alec is a man? And did he do well?

ROSE: I have no idea. (laughs) God. After--when I got my PhD, I invited some of the people from the university, and some of, of our close friends to a party, and Alec was there serving. And one of the girls in the graduate program really made a pass at Alec, who was a little drunk, and--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --and one of our friends took him home, because that wasn't gonna do. W-- we weren't saying-- Lexington was not ready for interracial dating.

FERNHEIMER: That was in what year? In the s-- in--

ROSE: --I got my PhD in '64.

FERNHEIMER: So in the middle of the '60s. So that, that wasn't--it wasn't ready at that time--

ROSE: --no.

FERNHEIMER: --in your opinion. And--

ROSE: --in my opinion, and in everybody's opinion. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So--but at that--by that point it was more common to have-- Were, were there other people of color at the party, or only Alec, who was serving?

ROSE: I don't think there was anybody except Alec.

FERNHEIMER: And this party was before or after the Urban League party that you hosted?

ROSE: Much before.

FERNHEIMER: Much before. Okay. So the Urban League party was maybe the later '60s.

ROSE: If you, if you're going to talk about integrated parties, the way they were integrated is the servants were black.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Do you think that hosting that integrated party impacted your relationships with other people in your social network? No?

ROSE: We were always strange. (both laugh) You know, I went back to school when women didn't go back to school. I-- The day I got invited to go into the doctoral program--as I said, I test marvelous, and the big--I didn't realize it at the time, but they were trying to establish a, a program in counseling psychology. And I thought I was so lucky they invited me t-to not get a master's, to go on and get my PhD. I now know--I was grateful then--I was the first PhD in counseling psychology, and they wanted that program to succeed, and they weren't being charitable to me. I--they saw me-- They used me, in a 01:28:00sense. I--this I, I've just come to know. Writing my autobiography has done a great deal for me. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: I imagine. When did you start writing your autobiography?

ROSE: About four years ago.

FERNHEIMER: And how close are you to finishing?

ROSE: I'm ready for it to be finished. Uh, the person who is to--whom I have hired to put it together has had various things happen in her life, and actually I looked at our contract, and I signed it two years ago, and she's had a knee operation, and--

FERNHEIMER: --oh, wow.

ROSE: --a house that was sold, and one that-- bought, and, and various things to distract her, and right now we're in a distraction period, so I don't know 01:29:00when it's coming out, if it's going to.

FERNHEIMER: I imagine working on that has helped you reflect back on some things.

ROSE: Oh, loads.

FERNHEIMER: Uh--

ROSE: --if I-- I really should've brushed up on, on, on dates and things before I came, but--except I didn't know what we were gonna talk about. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Well, if you'll allow us to, to revisit with you, then I imagine we can come back and get some of those dates, as well.

ROSE: All right.

FERNHEIMER: Um, we've touched a little bit on a couple of these closing questions that I have, um, about kind of your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual. I asked a version of that thinking about your childhood, but I guess I'm more curious about kind of, in retrospect, your, your most vivid memory of Jewish life.

ROSE: Well, our temple was, uh, was led by a, a series of men, always--almost 01:30:00always men until recently, who made a commitment to be on the board first, then to be, uh, chosen to be treasurer, secretary, first vice president--no, second vice president, first president, and then president. They made a commitment for twelve years of their lives. We were their handmaidens.

FERNHEIMER: The women.

ROSE: The wives. And, and we went to--we did everything together. Our social 01:31:00life was combined-- Well, they-- I, I--this comes out so badly, but socially we belonged to each other, and we were the people who took the responsibility of managing the temple. We didn't have, uh, an administrator. When you were the treasurer you did the work, and when you were the secretary you did the work, or your wife did. And so it was more than the temple itself; it was our lives w-- were that twelve years, uh, or fourteen years of togetherness.

FERNHEIMER: And so you socialized mainly with the other people who were in--

ROSE: --people who were in, involved in the same--

FERNHEIMER: --positions of--

ROSE: --interests, um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Those leadership positions.

ROSE: And when-- Harold Baker was one of those, and when talk--people talked about when the federation came here--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --he said--and he was wise--"I don't want them, because there, there are not enough leaders." And our leaders had always come from within.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: And, and there wasn't enough leadership to choose from.

FERNHEIMER: When did federation come to Lexington?

ROSE: Well--

FERNHEIMER: I'm trying to remember, as well. It had two different names. There was Central Kentucky--

ROSE: --Central Kentucky, yeah. And that was a, an attempt to establish an 01:33:00integration between the synagogue and the temple, and, and that wasn't ever going to work then. So the Central Kentucky Jewish Association came. And it--a lot of it had to do with Zionism.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: It--

FERNHEIMER: --tell me about that.

ROSE: Nobody has told you about that? (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: About Zionism? In connection to the split between the temple and the synagogue?

ROSE: The--well, the--

FERNHEIMER: No, actually, that's a genuine question in terms of--I, I-- Tell me about the role that Zionism played in that split.

ROSE: It was not-- It, it didn't play any role in the split, but it play, played a great role in the attempt to get together, uh, to work together. 01:34:00Hada-- when Hadassah came, that was part of it.

FERNHEIMER: And when did, when did--do you recall when Hadassah came? I'll--

ROSE: --in the '40s, '30s.

FERNHEIMER: And they--and, and Zionism was part of the mission.

ROSE: Uh, well, Hadassah is a Zionist organization.

FERNHEIMER: Yes.

ROSE: And there wasn't any move to Zionism before that.

FERNHEIMER: So they brought the ideas about Zionism with them.

ROSE: And where did they come from? Some other place. Yankees.

FERNHEIMER: So, I mean, within the Reform movement, Zionism was a dividing factor itself.

ROSE: And I don't know how things ran at the synagogue. I really don't. But I know that the integration of the temple, the management of the temple, was a--women were integral in many ways. They didn't have the offices, but they ran 01:35:00the place.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: And sisterhood was very important.

FERNHEIMER: And were many members of the sisterhood also members of Hadassah, or was that--

ROSE: --some of them were. I can't quote--

FERNHEIMER: Well, i-it's interesting that you bring that up, because that's roughly around the same time, right? The late '60s, with race relations, and integration in the city, and that's also around the time of the '67 war, and, and that had a big impact--

ROSE: --yes.

FERNHEIMER: --uh, on a national level. I don't know what--

ROSE: --well, it--the war had a big im-- impact everywhere.

FERNHEIMER: Zionism, all right. That's, uh, another question we--if I'm lucky enough to have a second opportunity, we'll, we'll talk more about that, uh, 01:36:00unless there's--is there anything else you want to add about that right now?

ROSE: Well, I was a member of the American Council for Ju-- Judaism, which was formed as an--in opposition to the state of Israel, because it, its principle was that American Jews were going to have to pay, not money, but the positions of American Jews was going to be a-- badly affected. And if there was ever anything that was demonstra-- demonstrating that, it is the situation now, right now, with the war, whether we will have that peace treaty with Iran, and what's 01:37:00going on in our Congress, and whether our Con-- Senators, with large rep-- with large Jewish representation, rep-- representing large Jewish voters, large numbers, who are considering whether they should vote in favor of that treaty, and, and the Netanyahu and his opinions--

FERNHEIMER: --you're speaking of the treaty with Iran.

ROSE: --yes--what--and I'm speaking of its being exactly what formed the opposition to the state of Israel.

FERNHEIMER: So y-- and, and Zionism came into this conversation now as we were talking a bit about the split, and so would you characterize one of the 01:38:00congregations as more or less Zionist, or--?

ROSE: Well, the synagogue and--was certainly more Zionist, but there were, uh, temple members who were very large in the Zionist movement, not in--

FERNHEIMER: --how was--

ROSE: --not in APAC, but, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And was that divisive within the temple?

ROSE: No.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

ROSE: We didn't care. Nobody cared much what, uh, what you thought. Evelyn Thompson said to me, "You're either with or us against us."

FERNHEIMER: And where would--where did she stand?

ROSE: Oh, she was an ardent Zionist.

FERNHEIMER: Non-Zionist.

ROSE: Uh-huh, a Hadassah lady. I never joined Hadassah.

FERNHEIMER: Wait, she was a non-Zionist Hadassah lady?

ROSE: Oh, no. She was a, an ardent Zionist.

FERNHEIMER: Okay, that's-- I wanted to make sure that I understood that correctly. Um, so I guess you started to talk a little bit about the situation 01:39:00in--contemporary situation. I wonder if you can talk about how you think things have changed in the Jewish community during the long period that you've been here.

ROSE: Oh, it's so different. So different. And part of it, I realize as I talk about it, uh, is that we were a Southern village--

FERNHEIMER: --Lexington.

ROSE: --and after the war, people were--discovered us.

FERNHEIMER: The second war? World War Two?

ROSE: Yeah. The second war. And they came. And Jews from the East came. And they--many of them joined the temple because the temple had something to offer them, but in the process they changed the temple, too.

FERNHEIMER: How so?

ROSE: It was--well, it's--it happened with Reform Judaism and conservative everywhere. It's not exclusive in Lexington, but we thought it was as it was happening. Um, there really should just be one conservative synagogue now. There's so much--

FERNHEIMER: --here in Lexington?

ROSE: Yeah. There, uh-- They integrated so much that there are very few people who think the things I think. My temple is, is-- It still says it's reform, but it's not reform in, in--not classical reform.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: Nor, I think, is the shul what it was when everybody over there kept kosher, and everybody was--didn't work on--walk on Shabbos and things like that. The, uh, the mores have changed. The rabbinate have changed.

FERNHEIMER: And so it sounds very different. Uh, you've described a stark difference such that you had to ask your mother for permission to date someone--

ROSE: --well--

FERNHEIMER: --from the synagogue--

ROSE: --yeah.

FERNHEIMER: --and if I unders--

ROSE: --to, to go out to the movies in a car. He just happened to be from the synagogue. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Ah, okay. So it was, it was more the dating than the--

ROSE: --yes.

FERNHEIMER: --the fact that he was from synagogue.

ROSE: If--there wasn't social integration much.

FERNHEIMER: Between the two congregations.

ROSE: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: But now I hear you saying--and correct me if I'm misunderstanding--that, that there's not such a stark difference between--

ROSE: There isn't.

FERNHEIMER: And so that's a big change. Um--

ROSE: --and--

FERNHEIMER: --anything--?

ROSE: Even our prayer books. Course, I don't know what goes on at the synagogue, but I know that our prayer books are, are different from what were the prayer books when I grew up.

FERNHEIMER: How are they different? What do they--?

ROSE: They-- They have taken the framework that was cla-- classical Judaism and pushed it over in the corner, and now it's--the music is very different. The, uh, the creation of the Jewish camps--

FERNHEIMER: --summer camps?

ROSE: --yeah, summer camps for young people, and guitar music, and songs that, that the, uh, union of American Hebrew congregations created, and I know why 01:43:00they did it, in, in self-preservation, and they have done it, and it's the outgrowth of the camp movement to keep young people involved.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

ROSE: It's all very different.

FERNHEIMER: Mm. How would you say your Jewishness is different from that of your parents? Speaking of difference.

ROSE: It's much more--it's more intellectual.

FERNHEIMER: Hm.

ROSE: And that's what attracts me to Judaism: its intellectual qualities. My parents were Jewish because they were born Jewish, and, in their custom, their families were Jewish, and that was totally their-- They weren't, weren't 01:44:00educated into thought. My father had a sixth-grade education. My mother had an eighth-grade education. I was the first, second member of my family, of my--I'm the oldest grandchild. One uncle went to college before me. I was the first one to, in this generation, to get a master's degree, uh, and I'm the only PhD--

FERNHEIMER: --um-hm.

ROSE: --uh--

FERNHEIMER: If you have children, how does your relationship to Jewish identity and practice compare to theirs?

ROSE: Well, both my sons married Gentiles, first. Um, the second--my second son's second wife is Jewish, and she and I do fine. (both laugh)

FERNHEIMER: How would you say living here in Kentucky has impacted the way that you think about your relationship with Judaism?

ROSE: I think had I lived in the--in-- I think the Gentiles made me a better Jew.

FERNHEIMER: What--

ROSE: --they, they established that I was something different from them, and so, having been that, I went aggressively into my kind of Judaism.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: And I wouldn't be anything else, ever, now, or, or since, since I learned enough.

FERNHEIMER: Is there anything else that I haven't asked about that you'd like 01:46:00to share about Judaism, or being a Jew in Kentucky, or your experiences at UK? Anything that I missed that you'd like to get on the record?

ROSE: No, I don't think so. I like it. I like being a Jew. My kind of Jew.

FERNHEIMER: Could you have been your kind of Jew outside of Kentucky?

ROSE: Oh, I think so. It would've been more difficult.

FERNHEIMER: Can you give me a brief des-- definition of your kind of Jew?

ROSE: Well, first place, I'm not all wound up in, in, uh, in Israel. I think American Jews--Jews in America, the place of Jews in America, in the long run, 01:47:00politically, will suffer. Um--(coughs)--I like the influence we've had in most ways. Certainly I'm proud of the, uh, of the musici-- of the music contribution, and of the medical contribution, and, and-- Um, the fact that cr-- mostly we're not in the criminal class. (coughs) I don't know how to say all this. I like being a Southern Jew. I don't want to be a Northern Jew. I 01:48:00don't like Northern Jews. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: What makes, what makes Southern Jews so special? And I guess, as part of that, Kentucky Jews?

ROSE: What makes us so special? I think most of us were a credit to our people. Most of us. And, and a credit to Judaism. (coughs) Because we were so civilized.

FERNHEIMER: And by "civilized," what do you mean?

ROSE: Educated leaders in good causes. (coughs) Not looking down on, on the blacks, for instance, because I don't think we did. There were--the others did, 01:49:00other people did, but we didn't. (coughs) I-- I think--I used to think of Jews as all admirable people. I don't think of anybody as honorable anymore. (laughs) I was prouder of Jews than I am now. And I don't know if it's because we have a twenty-four/seven press, and I know more about everybody than I used to know. I look at the, uh-- Jews, in my mind, were famous because of good 01:50:00things that they did, not on Wall Street. The more I come to know, we're not different from other people, and Judaism has not made us different--

FERNHEIMER: --mm.

ROSE: --which it should've done. And it's in the honor, in, in what we study. I see more, uh, criminal activity.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

ROSE: I don't know what--if this m-makes any sense, and I don't know if it's just my age.

FERNHEIMER: It sounds like the more, the more you--the more you know, the harder it is to love. (laughs)

ROSE: Yes, it is.

FERNHEIMER: Um-- Uh-- Um-- So that's a real different place to end up than when, uh, asked you to talk about your kind of Jew. Uh, anything else that--

ROSE: --no.

FERNHEIMER: --you'd like to add? Well, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to let me ask you so many questions today. (laughs) Um, I really appreciate it.

ROSE: You were feeling honored by my presence. You probably aren't at this point. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Oh, that's not true. Uh, I'm honored to have had the opportunity to talk with you and learn so much, um, and I thank you. I think--

ROSE: Um-hm.

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