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https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/d87410cba61f541e3ed13758cd2ba88d.jpeg
36b60e22f504a1ae237d661d2b2670c9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Stanley Saxe
Interview Keyword
Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington
University of Kentucky. College of Medicine
University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry
Jewish families.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh472_jk013 Interview with Stanley Saxe, December 3, 2015 2015oh472_jk013 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Minorities in higher education Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Religion Worship (Judaism) Discrimination. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Jews--Identity. Lexington (Ky.) Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington University of Kentucky. College of Medicine University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry Jewish families. Stanley Saxe Janice Crane 1:|21(1)|33(14)|52(4)|68(4)|83(16)|94(9)|102(12)|118(1)|127(6)|136(5)|146(5)|157(15)|169(10)|183(1)|199(12)|209(1)|219(12)|232(9)|242(11)|252(3)|263(18)|273(9)|284(10)|299(9)|310(13)|320(16)|332(1)|342(3)|351(11)|361(12)|371(18)|380(3)|387(15)|398(11)|407(6)|416(5)|427(12)|434(8)|443(9)|454(3)|463(5)|474(10)|483(10)|493(4)|502(2)|510(7)|521(1)|530(15)|539(10)|548(8)|556(6)|570(5)|580(14)|590(11)|603(15)|613(5)|620(6)|628(2)|635(16)|650(16)|665(10)|675(14)|685(1)|693(11)|701(7)|709(11)|719(12)|729(10)|739(1)|745(8)|754(1)|763(3)|773(2)|789(10)|801(2)|813(6)|821(2)|831(4)|844(9)|852(13)|866(4)|877(6)|888(8)|901(2)|911(1)|920(4)|929(5)|941(12)|952(7)|960(8)|969(5)|979(7)|990(17)|1000(4)|1008(7)|1016(16)|1028(12)|1037(10)|1049(15)|1056(14)|1066(10)|1078(8)|1089(1)|1098(2)|1107(4) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253338432" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 1 Family history and relationship to Judaism For official purposes, today is December 3rd, 2015. Dr. Stanley Saxe introduces himself and his family. He discusses his family's migration from Russia to America and his parents' life and work in the tobacco industry. He also describes his childhood in Malden, Massachusetts. Boston (Mass.) ; Congregations ; Entrepreneurs ; Gender in Judaism ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Great Depression ; Jewish communities ; Jewish practice ; Migration ; Orthodox Judaism ; Public schools ; Religious services ; Russia ; Tobacco ; Twentieth century Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. 42.430, -71.057 17 City of Malden, Massachusetts. 455 Anti-Semitism in higher education and American society in the 1930s What did your parents teach you about Judaism, and how did this impact your choices in life? From quotas limiting the number of Jewish students accepted to universities to the anti-Semitic rhetoric of public figures such as Charles E. Coughlin and Henry Ford, Saxe remembers the discrimination that he and his family experienced during the 1930s in Boston. 1930s ; Charles E Coughlin ; Education ; Henry Ford ; Immigration ; Jewish life ; Judaism ; News ; Newspapers ; Pamplets ; Radio ; The Protocols of the Elders of Zion Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Minorities in higher education 17 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/interview/henryford-antisemitism/ Article from PBS outlining Henry Ford's anti-Semitic beliefs and activities. More information: article from PBS outlining Charles E. Coughlin's anti-Semitic beliefs and activities (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevents/pandeAMEX96.html) 749 Jewish life at Boston University in the 1950s Where did you go to school? Saxe attributes his dedication to education to his parents' experience as immigrants and subsequent emphasis on education as a means to excel in America. He was unable to be very involved in Jewish life at Boston University due to his studies and his weekend job as a runner in the Market District. 1800s ; 1950s ; Blackstone Street ; Boston (Mass.) ; Boston University ; Colleges ; Education ; Food markets ; Hillel ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish organizations ; Market district ; Migration ; Outside markets ; Social life ; Work College students--Employment. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Emigration and immigration. ; Jewish families. 42.361, -71.056 17 Blackstone Street, Boston, MA http://www.bostonethnicmarkets.com/haymarket/photos/market1950sg1000.jpg A photo of Blackstone Street market during the 1950's. Photo reprinted in Boston’s North End by Anthony Mitchell Sammarco. Image found at http://www.bostonethnicmarkets.com 1134 Moving to Lexington in the 1960s So what brought you to Kentucky? Saxe describes his move to Seattle in order to pursue a post-doctoral opportunity in periodontics at the University of Washington. While in Seattle, Saxe was invited to join the newly established College of Dentistry at the University of Kentucky. He explains the qualities that convinced him and his wife to stay in Lexington, including the college's innovative practices and dedication to non-discrimination, and a thriving Jewish community. 1960s ; Boston (Mass.) ; Community ; Dentistry ; Education ; Family life ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish history ; Medical practice ; Migration ; Periodontics ; Relations with African Americans ; Seattle (Wash.) Minorities in higher education ; University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry 38.049, -84.499 17 Graves, Cox & ; amp Company, 325 W Main St, Lexington, Kentucky 40507 http://lexhistory.org/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Graves,%20Cox%20%2312.jpg?itok=weMv4z1S Image of local men's clothing store, Graves, Cox & ; amp Company. Photo hosted on http://lexhistory.org/wikilex/graves-cox-company. 2197 Adjusting to Jewish life in Lexington in the 1960s From a Jewish perspective, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make from Boston, to Seattle, to Kentucky? Saxes describes the biggest differences in regard to his Jewish practices between Boston, Seattle, and Lexington, particularly due to location relative to community centers and the values of each Jewish community. He also shares the story about how he was invited to attend holiday services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue by a friend when he first moved to Lexington, and he has been a member ever since. Chevy Chase ; Conservative Judaism ; Jewish communities ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Reform Judaism ; Rosh Hashanah ; Seattle (Wash.) Lexington (Ky.) ; Worship (Judaism) 37.998, -84.471 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue, 2048 Edgewater Ct, Lexington, Kentucky 40502 http://www.ozs.org/ Homepage of the Ohavay Zion Synagogue in Lexington, Kentucky. 2468 Employment and research at the University of Kentucky from the 1960s to the 2000s What was your position at the dental school, and, um, the specific areas of instruction or faculty responsibilities that you had? Saxe describes his work at the University of Kentucky, including his chairmanship of the department of periodontics, the establishment of courses in geriatric dentistry, and a major research project investigating the relationship between mercury dental fillings and the development of Alzheimer's disease with the Sanders-Brown Center on Aging. 1960s ; Alzheimer's disease ; Brains ; Dental amalgam ; Dental fillings ; Geriatric Dentistry ; Medical research ; Mercury ; Periodontics ; Periodontitis ; Sanders-Brown Center on Aging ; Silver fillings ; University employment ; University of Kentucky College of Dentistry ; University of Kentucky College of Medicine Universities and colleges--Research ; University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry ; University of Kentucky. College of Medicine 38.032, 84.508 17 University of Kentucky College of Dentistry. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10036842 PubMed abstract of Saxe et al's article, " ; Alzheimer's disease, dental amalgam and mercury," ; published in the Journal of the American Dental Association in February of 1999. 3114 Evolving attitudes in the Lexington Jewish community in the 1970s Um, I know that Dr. Wekstein was Jewish. What was it like for you to work with a fellow Jewish faculty, um, from the university? Saxe describes the shift to a more tolerant opinion about the role of women at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and his involvement with the establishment of a Havurah, or an egalitarian and alternative service, in the 1970s. 1970s ; Gender in Judaism ; Havurah ; Jewish communities ; Jewish practices ; Jewish religion ; Jewish tradition ; Jewish women ; Lexington Havurah (Lexington, synagogue) ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Role of women ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/havurah-judaism/ This article, from My Jewish Learning, describes the Havurah movement starting in the 1960s and 1970s. 3625 Discrimination in professional organizations and the creation of the American Society of Periodontists in 1960 As a, um, a Jew working at the University of Kentucky, describe any adjustments that you needed to make, um, if you needed to make them. Discrimination within the American Academy of Periodontology led to the creation of a new professional organization for periodontists, the American Society of Periodontists in 1960. 1950s ; 1960s ; American Society of Periodontists ; Consolidations ; Education ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Journal of Periodontology ; Journal publications ; Mergers ; Prejudice ; Professional conferences ; Professional organizations ; Racism ; University of Kentucky American Academy of Periodontology ; American Dental Association ; Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. 39.744, -104.987 17 The Brown Palace Hotel, 321 17th St, Denver, Colorado. Location of the first off-year meeting of the American Society of Periodontists. https://www.perio.org/about/AAP-history.html A history of the American Academy of Periodontology, including the merging with the American Society of Periodontists in 1967. Image of the official seal of the American Society of Periodontists: (https://www.perio.org/sites/default/files/1967-ASP-Seal.jpg). 4404 Jewish identity and more tolerant attitudes toward Jews in Lexington in the 1960s and 1970s Were there other Jewish faculty at the dental school while you were there? The University of Kentucky College of Dentistry's policy of non-discrimination, the relatively welcoming Lexington community, and the push for change by Jewish individuals migrating to Lexington in the 1960s and 1970s helped foster a supportive and active Jewish community. 1960s ; Education ; Fraternity ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish population ; Migration ; Prejudice ; Racism ; Social change ; University of Kentucky College of Dentistry Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry 17 https://dentistry.uky.edu/about-us " ; About Us" ; and mission statement of the University of Kentucky's College of Dentistry. 5278 Involvement with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass and interfaith and inter-community efforts While you were busy at the University, um, of Kentucky, uh, in the dental school, you were also very active in the Jewish community. Saxe outlines the many roles he has played in the Lexington Jewish community, including his time with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass. He also describes how raising his children Jewish was easier in a smaller community because the Jewish community was much more tight-knit and there was more interfaith and inter-community interactions. Board of directors ; Camp Shalom (Lexington, Ky.) ; Central Kentucky Jewish Federation (CKJF, later Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass) ; Community involvement ; Education ; Interfaith Council ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish women ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Responsibilities Jewish children ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 37.997, -84.480 17 Location of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, 1050 Chinoe Rd #112, Lexington, Kentucky. http://jewishlexington.org/camp-shalom Homepage of Camp Shalom. Established in 1968, it is the only Jewish day camp in central Kentucky. 5782 Lexington Jewish community's growth and change from 1960 forward So you've been here a long time. How has the Jewish community in Lexington changed over time? Saxe ascribes Lexington's Jewish community's growth to an influx of people moving into Lexington for jobs beginning in the 1960s and 1970s. Saxe describes his family's involvement in the Lexington Jewish community and their participation in Hadassah and Young Judaea. He also mentions Lexington's Jewish community's attitudes towards Israel, specifically the role of Lexington's Hadassah women leaders on a national scale. Community involvement ; Entrepreneurship ; Family life ; Hadassah ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish women ; Judy Saxe ; Migration ; Population growth ; Summer camps ; University of Kentucky ; Young Judaea ; Zionism Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.009, -84.470 17 Location of the Lexington chapter of Hadassah. http://www.hadassah.org/about/history.html History of Hadassah from the organization's official webpage. Information about the Lexington chapter of Hadassah: (https://jewishlexington.org/community-directory/lexington-chapter-of-hadassah) interview Dr. Stanley Saxe introduces himself and his family. He discusses his family's migration from Russia to America and his parents' life and work in the tobacco industry. He also describes his childhood in Malden, Massachusetts. From quotas limiting the number of Jewish students accepted to universities to the anti-Semitic rhetoric of public figures such as Charles E. Coughlin and Henry Ford, Saxe remembers the discrimination that he and his family experienced during the 1930s in Boston. Saxe describes his move to Seattle in order to pursue a post-doctoral opportunity in periodontics at the University of Washington. While in Seattle, Saxe was invited to join the newly established College of Dentistry at the University of Kentucky. Saxes describes the biggest differences in regard to his Jewish practices between Boston, Seattle, and Lexington, particularly due to location relative to community centers and the values of each Jewish community. He also shares the story about how he was invited to attend holiday services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue by a friend when he first moved to Lexington, and he has been a member ever since. Saxe describes the shift to a more tolerant opinion about the role of women at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and his involvement with the establishment of a Havurah, or an egalitarian and alternative service, in the 1970s. Saxe outlines the many roles he has played in the Lexington Jewish community, including his time with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass. Saxe describes his work at the University of Kentucky, including his chairmanship of the department of periodontics, the establishment of courses in geriatric dentistry, and a major research project investigating the relationship between mercury dental fillings and the development of Alzheimer's disease with the Sanders-Brown Center on Aging. Discrimination within the American Academy of Periodontology led to the creation of a new professional organization for periodontists, the American Society of Periodontists in 1960. CRANE: For official purposes, today is December 3rd, 2015 and my name is Janice Crane and I' ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I' ; m honored to be here today Dr. Stanley Saxe. Dr. Saxe, can you just tell me what your name was at birth? SAXE: Stanley Richard Saxe. CRANE: And when and where were you born? SAXE: I was born just north of Boston in Chelsea, Massachusetts on February 1st, 1932. CRANE: Okay, and are you parents alive? SAXE: No. My -- CRANE: What were their -- their names and their occupations? Um -- SAXE: My father, Harry Saxe, worked in, uh, as a -- as a -- worked f-- initially had his own tobacco store, up until the depression, on the water front in Boston and then he worked for a large wholesale tobacco company, uh, until -- uh, his retirement. Uh, my mother, uh, who was born in the North End of Boston, Anna Pearl Kaplan Saxe, uh, was the oldest of eight children of Russian immigrants. And, uh, they, uh, after she married my father, or the -- when she married my father, they lived in Malden, Massachusetts, uh, for the rest of their lives. And it' ; s the city in which I grew up and, uh, went through the grades, went through high school. CRANE: Did your, uh, grandparents when they -- were they born in the United States or were they born outside of the United States? SAXE: They were born outside of the United States ; as a young married couple in Russia, the immigrated to Boston. And, as I mentioned, they had eight children, uh, which my mother was the oldest . CRANE: And were there -- did they change their names when they came over or were -- SAXE: No. (laughs) CRANE: They got to stay the same. SAXE: Yes, yes indeed. They were, uh, my maternal grandfather was Raphael Kaplan and my maternal grandmother was Sarah Rachel Resnick, who then became Sarah Rachel Resnick Kaplan. And actually I' ; m named after my maternal grandmother, Stanley Richard named after Sarah Rachel. CRANE: Okay. Um, and if you have siblings, what are their names and ages relative to you? SAXE: I' ; m the last surviving sibling. I' ; m the youngest at age eighty-three now. Uh, I had an older brother, uh, Irving, uh, a sister, the second born, Sylvia. The second sister, Roberta, who was the third, and I was the fourth child. CRANE: And what is your wife' ; s name? SAXE: My wife' ; s name is Judith Shapiro Saxe. CRANE: And the names and ages of your children and your grandchildren? SAXE: (laughs) We have -- CRANE: This is a test. SAXE: (laughs) We have three children. Uh, the oldest of whom was born here in Lexington in 1963, that' ; s Harriet Anne. And that means that she just turned, uh, fifty-two. Um, the second oldest, who is just turned fifty, is our daughter Natalie Rose. And our third child, who is in another few days, uh, will become forty-eight, is Neal Alexander Saxe. CRANE: And your grandchildren? SAXE: Yes. Neal ha-- Neal and his wife, uh, have one daughter who is Heila who is eighteen years old and a college freshman. And our daughter Harriet has two girls, the oldest is Heila -- pardon me, Heila is our oldest granddaughter. Harriet' ; s oldest daughter is Zoe, and Zoe is fifteen. And uh the second and the young-- her second daughter, and our youngest granddaughter, is Zoe -- Zoe, pardon me, Zoe is fifteen, the oldest of Harriet' ; s two daughters. The youngest is Olivia and she is now thirteen. CRANE: Okay. How would you describe your parents, both your mother and your father' ; s relationship to Judaism? SAXE: They grew up in an, uh, in an area where there was only -- predominantly only Orthodox Judaism and, uh, they were, uh, and the -- and the synagogue that my father attended, it was much male oriented. Women, if they did attend, were relegated to the -- to a far distant balcony ; it was an Orthodox congregation. And, uh, they were observant but not, um, not fantastically observant. It was a -- it was very consistent with, uh, with our neighbors. It was uh, um, uh sort of a middle of the road Orthodox Judaism, I would say. CRANE: And how is Judaism in your -- what was Judaism in your family like growing up? How did being Jewish figure into your life? SAXE: Uh, I grew up in a, um, predominantly Jewish neighborhood in Malden. Um, and most -- I went to public schools there, most of the children were Jewish. Uh, if they weren' ; t Jewish, they were Catholic. Our neighbors were Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic and it wasn' ; t until I was in -- or getting ready to leave the local junior high school, which was only a block away, uh, and went to the Malden High School, which high school at that time was three years, ten, eleven, and twelfth grades, and we had the students coming in from the two other junior high schools in the city. And it was only at that time that I had realized that Christ-- not that -- I thought all Christians were Catholic because all the Christians that I had in school and played ball with on the street were Catholic and, um, we referred to the non-Catholic Christians, those were to all of us, both who -- all of the people Jewish and non-people in our neighborhood as the Yankees. CRANE: (laughs) SAXE: These were the Yankee -- Yankees were what then that name became WASP -- White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. CRANE: What did your parents teach you about Judaism and how did this impact your choices in life? SAXE: We, uh, it was -- it was always predominant because it -- it really dictated your life and when I was a small child, um, discrimination in, uh, in education, certainly in the colleges and the professional schools, was widely practiced. And that includes Harvard and Tufts, uh, there were quotas for undergraduates and, uh, there were quotas for, uh, students in the professional schools -- dentistry, medicine, law. And, um, it was very real. Um, my -- the second oldest, uh, in my mother' ; s family, she was the oldest, as I' ; ve said, her brother Barney -- it was a real immigrant story. My -- let me digress a little bit and say my maternal grandfather, uh, they lived in the North End of Boston, where most of the children were born, he had -- my grandfather -- uh, a paint and glass shop, uh, store in the North End. The oldest boy, my mother never attended college, but the oldest boy went to Harvard and -- Harvard Law School, the third child, the second oldest boy, Julius, uh, went to Tufts Medical School. At that time I think that one entered medical school, or could, directly from high school. Um, my uncle Lou, the next, uh -- oh, and then the next oldest, uh, of my aunts went to, um, not sure of the school, it was a like, uh, it -- it was a college equivalent school like my aunt Esther went to Sargent College which is now part of Boston University, but which was a physical education school for women, for teachers of physical education. My aunt Rose went to the New England Conservatory of Music, uh, then my uncle Lou -- there were eight children -- went to Tufts as an undergraduate and graduated from Boston University Law School. So, uh, and my youngest, uh, of the eight aunts and uncle-- uh, seven aunts and uncles, Albert, the only one who didn' ; t go to college, uh, my grandmother died when he was in his early teens, and uh, he never went to college. He did well in school, went to Malden High School, went to Boston Latin School because he lived with an aunt, and then went into the Army in the Second World War But education was extremely important and being Jewish and getting entry into professional schools was always a factor -- that' ; s one aspect of Judaism. And the other that we were always observant in terms of Kashrut, in terms of seeing that, you know, non-kosher foods didn' ; t come into that house. Uh, but, uh, Judaism was something that you practiced, but we also know that there were -- it was also a time, for example, of Father Coughlin on the radio. I remember going next door where my Uncle Barney and his wife were living and they would listen on the radio to Father Coughlin. This was -- that only ended at the time of the Second World War, but in the late ' ; 30s, when I was like seven, eight years old, uh, yeah. So anti-Semitism was, uh, was a real thing, it was broadcast publically and you were aware of it. Uh, you know, in much of the time. CRANE: The radio show itself was an anti-Semitic radio show? SAXE: Oh, yes. Father Coughlin, and I think it was out of Detroit, gave these anti-Semitic rants and it only ended at the t-- at the beginning of the Second World War. Yeah, Father Coughlin g-- and Henry Ford, uh, Henry Ford, uh, out of Dearborn, Michigan, uh, funded an anti-Semitic newsletter, essentially. Well known for its anti-Semitic, uh, backing, yeah. CRANE: Where did you go to school? SAXE: I went to, uh, the public schools in Malden. Um, which is two towns away from Boston, going a straight line it' ; s about five miles from the state house. Uh, I graduated Malden High School, uh, I -- my college, uh, college of liberal arts at Boston University and then the school of dental medicine at Harvard. Oh, and--(laughs)--and then I was -- I was a post doc at the University of Washington in Seattle and actually, uh, as post docs in dentistry, we were enrolled in the graduate school. Uh, so I was officially a student of, uh, a graduate student at the University of Washington and do have a degree from there as well. CRANE: When you were in college, um, what involvement did you have in Jewish organizations on campus? SAXE: Uh, there was a large Hillel, but I wasn' ; t, um, wasn' ; t really involved. Uh, actually, uh, when I was in dental school and there was an event, uh, at the Boston University Hillel house, I went with a couple of friends. We mostly were interested in -- in the social aspect and that' ; s actually where I met Judy, my wife. At the Hillel house in Boston U-- at the Boston University Hillel house. But in terms of participating in the activities as an undergraduate, I -- it was very minimal. CRANE: Were you in a -- a fraternity? SAXE: No. CRANE: OK. And what were your -- why were you not active in Hillel or a Jewish fraternity? Was there a particular reason? SAXE: Well, uh, we were pretty busy. I, um, I mean, I commuted from home. I commuted every day, we had class work. And then I always worked, uh, um, beginning in high school, I worked in market district in the north end of Boston. And I did that, uh, when I was still fifteen years old. And we were -- as kids, we were hired essentially off the books because we weren' ; t old enough and, um, it was all day on Saturday. When I saw all day on Saturday, we didn' ; t start -- this was in the meat market, the North End was a big shopping area, uh, Blackstone Street was actually closed off. Um, meat markets lined one side of the street, wagons with produce came in backed up to that side of the sidewalk, pushed carts filled up the rest of the street. Um, some on Friday, but the street was closed off on Saturdays. And, uh, we worked until, uh, ten, ten-thirty at night. We worked, uh, more than a fourteen hour day. Uh, I was a cashier and, uh, we, um, and a bundle boy. We, um, as kids, there were several of us, we work-- a lot of kids who worked there. Uh, there were counters inside the stores, but there were also -- the street was lined with what were called cases or outside display cases, and were so busy on a Saturday, we' ; d take the glass covers off. So there were shelves, refrigeration in the back of it, and there' ; d be one or two sellers, adult men, who would throw -- work with the customer -- there-- there' ; s a constant stream of people walking on the sidewalk and, uh, my--(laughs)--my, uh, my brother and my older sister, Sylvia, would tell me that when they worked there in the market district, the police would come to have -- to close the stores down because they would stay open until after twelve o' ; clock and there were blue laws in the city of Boston that stores could not be open on Sunday. So they' ; d say, " ; Boy, you know, you finished at ten, ten thir-- it' ; s pretty easy stuff." ; But anyway, I walked -- I worked through most of my high school time and all of my college time, uh, on Saturdays so no -- we were keeping busy with other things then tending a lot of social functions during the week. CRANE: Well, before we get too much into your life here in Kentucky, um, is there anything unique or anything else you would like to, um, share about your family background or your childhood years or your college years? SAXE: Well, I think that in some ways it was very typical. You know, as I mentioned, my maternal grandparents, uh, came as a young married couple to Boston and, uh, and education was very important for all of their children. Uh, as it was for my parents, um, my father came to Boston at about the age of fourteen, uh, his mother had died when -- a few years earlier, his father had remarried, and there were relatives and, uh, people they knew, uh, so he came to, uh, the port of Boston. And, uh, it was in many ways typical of many of the families, uh, where there were immigrants and the, uh, in the late 1800s and, um, and with the emphasis on education, of course, we all -- we all, but you know, we felt strongly that it was because of the, uh, the Jewish background and upbringing where education was -- and learning -- was valued and, uh, we wo-- we, uh, we grew up in that environment and, uh, um, so in many ways it was very typical of a -- of our neighbors and other family members. CRANE: So what brought you to Kentucky? SAXE: I mentioned that, um, I was a post doc at the University of Washington in Seattle and, um, why did I go to Seattle from New England and from the Boston area? The -- let me -- I' ; ll tell you an interesting story. When I told my mother in, uh, in 1958, when I finished dental school and Judy and I were married and Judy was out of college, uh, I said my -- to my mother, " ; We' ; re going to go to Washington." ; And she said, " ; Why so far away?" ; Thinking, of course, as most people in the area did, the District of Columbia because, uh, certainly at the end of the Second World War, when I was only thirteen, and the new Boston I-- Logan International Airport was created in Boston harbor, Boston was referred to -- they -- they advertise it as not just the hub, meaning the hub of New England, but the hub of the air universe. Now Boston was the center, and it was reinforced -- I mentioned the name of a couple of the colleges there, but there were a lot of colleges and universities and a lot of people came into Boston in order to attend school. Uh, the major hospitals were there, uh, the Mass General, the Ether Dome was known because in the 1840s the first use of ether -- that was it. If you -- that was the educational cultural center--(laughs)--certainly of the United States, as far as we were exposed to in the Boston area. And if you wanted to go to school, the -- you went to school in the Boston area ; few people left to do that that we knew of. So when I told my mother we' ; re going to go to Washington, she' ; s thinking Washington D.C. and why do you have to go so far away when most everything is right here in, uh, in Boston, in the area. And, uh, why did I go 3,000 miles away? Because my teacher, uh, at Harvard, who was teaching periodontics, uh, Paul Goldhaber, well I' ; m not sure he was even a regular faculty, he may have been only been a post-doctoral fellow at the time when I was in school, but within a few years later he not only rose in the ranks, he was the dean for many, many years, uh, at Harvard. Actually, he was the first Jewish dean ever in Harvard University, and he knew that. But, uh, I -- my -- his teacher at Columbia University was going out to University of Washington to set up a new program, a federally funded program in periodontics, the idea that would be a program that would foster clinician scholars, it would be researchers, and teachers, as well as practitioners in the specialty. And, uh, I, uh, I spoke to the, uh, it was Saul Schluger who was at Columbia University, I called him before he -- he left New York City to start that program during my last year in dental school. And--(laughs)--and, uh, he was quite a character and this great booming voice came out over the telephone and said, " ; Yes, send for an application. You' ; re the type of student we want." ; And I was convinced that' ; s the only place I wanted to go, and Judy and I went out there and I went out there with the idea I' ; d be there two years, at that time the post-doctoral programs are only two years in length, they' ; re three years now, then after two years I' ; d return east, no doubt to New England. Um, we didn' ; t because--(laughs)--I ended up on the faculty after I -- when I finished the program. Um, and, um, uh, and then was on the faculty for the next two years, uh, until I got a call one day, uh, here from Lexington about, uh, the new school being created at the University of Kentucky. CRANE: Wow. Okay. What, um, can you describe the considerations in moving here? Especially any discussions that you may have had about Jewish life in Lexington at the time? SAXE: Yeah. Uh, -- CRANE: Why did you come here? SAXE: Uh, in our fourth year in Seattle, I was, um, with my second year as a faculty member--(clears throat)--excuse me, and, uh, Judy, um, after our first year there s-- in Seattle, started the school of social working thinking that she might -- that she wouldn' ; t finish because it would -- would be at the end of our two years in Seattle, excuse me. But when I was in -- then when I was a -- was on the faculty, she went and finished the school of social work, and in our fourth year began work as a social worker at the Jewish Family Service in Seattle, where she was hired because she had a placement there. And, uh, so in our fourth year in Seattle, where Judy' ; s working, I' ; m working, we decided we really liked living in Seattle and we were going to, uh, to stay there. And, uh, but we lived in a -- in a little, but nice, apartment. We said that maybe we should buy a little house ; the big thing in Seattle at that time, and still was, what they called single unit detached dwellings. You would just buy a little house, but if we buy a house, we have no furniture. We never bought furniture, uh, that we would -- as if we were going to stay there. So we went and we bought, um, Danish modern couch from the store -- a well-known furniture store in Seattle and, um, about a week after the couch was delivered, I got this telephone call, uh, inviting me to come out, uh, to Lexington. And at that time, I had to make a couple of decisions in Seattle at the University of Washington, university -- the school was only about ten years old when I got there and it was still developing the medical center. University of Washington Medical Center. And, um, there was -- I was asked about heading a new hospital dental service, or there was this concept about -- and I -- about -- that was coming out -- promoted by one particular person in Salt Lake City who brought it to Seattle and was to consider the fact that, uh, the patient was really going to be supine, the dentist was going to sit down on one side of the patient, and assistant would be seated on the other side and would hand instruments to the dentist, but the instruments would be prepared in a package for the particular procedure, and I wasn' ; t so sure about that because I was trained as a surgeon and you stood up. And if a dentist sat down, the dentist reached out to a cabinet on the side of the, uh, next to the dentist and took out a -- perhaps a mirror and put it on this bracket table in front of the patient and then reached for another instrument and put that there -- the dentist selected his own instruments, you know they were all male, so it' ; s his, and most all the assistants were female. And this concept of sit down dentistry, uh, to go ahead and move on that -- so I had our stay in the department of periodontics, and then when I got the call from the University of Kentucky, that sounded rather interesting because the concept was things are going to be different than have been done in conventional dental schools up to that time. So I came out here to Lexington to visit and stayed here several days, and the exciting thing about the new -- this -- there were five people who have been doing the planning for the college of dentistry, led by Al Morris who had been appointed dean, who had come from the University of Pennsylvania. And that was the exciting aspect. Students were going to be treated respectfully, their -- even though there' ; s a faculty and a student relationship where colleague' ; s respect for the student, also the fact that periodontics would be in the first year of the curriculum, that is students would see patients in the first year of the curriculum and patients with teeth. In most dental schools at that time, the first patient that a student would see -- not in the first year necessarily, maybe the second year, most often the third year -- would be a person who was edentulous, who had no teeth. I guess that feeling was that the student could do no harm, or couldn' ; t do much harm. And this -- here at Kentucky, the idea was that preservation of the dentition was the most important thing and the st-- the dental student would be -- have contact with patients at -- immediately. At very beginning of, uh, their time in dental school. Uh, and, uh, students -- and the stories were told at that time and about other dental schools, some of them not too -- in adjoining states, that when the class -- the entering class first met, a person at the head of the room would say to them, " ; Look to the right, and look to your left because, uh, in a year, next year, one of you won' ; t be here." ; And that was, uh, not a rarity where it' ; s more students were taken into an entering class and whoever could survive, you know, saying that possibly only two thirds of them would survive and become second year students. So the concept of Kentucky, we' ; re here to keep students in school, to see that they learn, that their colleagues -- and have a concept of dentistry on -- on prevention and on the best possible technical care that there could be. It was very exciting because things were going to be really different from other, uh, from other dental schools. Uh, this is in, uh, early, early 1962, when I came to visit. Um, so one day, and I was here for several days, so one day I borrowed a car and drove down, and this was very important, I drove down Rose Street and Rose Street ended at Main Street, and there was the Mammoth Garage, which some people may remember--(laughter)--I parked the car in the Mammoth Garage and -- and then later I realized where -- where I -- where I was walking. I walked on what the north side of Main Street and I went in and out of every store and I -- until I got to what is Broadway, and then just the downtown area changed and I looked to see who was riding where on those old green crumley American buses that -- there were two way traffic on Main Street, crossed Main Street to the south side, went in and out of every store and at one point I went in to a men' ; s clothing store and I didn' ; t remember the name, but I later learned it was Graves Cox. And as you walked in, you could see it was a very nice men' ; s clothing store, quality men' ; s clothing store, and as was conventional with most men' ; s clothing stores, at -- one walked in, and the very beginning there would be a counter, glass cases where, uh, accessories would be sold -- neck ties, cufflinks, small items -- and behind the counter there was a middle aged black man dressed in a suit, coat, coat, and tie -- and, uh, and I looked around and I -- it was very significant. Here is a black clerk in a very nice clothing store up front meeting the public and that had a very, very profound effect. Some years later, I found out from a Lexington resident, and then not so long ago actually spoke with Joe Graves whose father owned the store with Mr. Cox and Joe had worked in the store, and I found out that this was a very unique situation ; this was a black person who was an employee at Graves Cox, he went off to medical school, uh, out of Lexington, came back because his wife was ill, and he got a job with -- then I think is when he began working for Graves Cox, and not as a clerk, and, uh, he was going to leave because he had a job in the U.S. Post Office, but Mr. Graves thought he was a very good employee and did not want him to leave and promoted him, uh, to a sales clerk job up front and he did very, very well. Uh, but it was a unique situation due to the Graves family, uh, and that -- but that one single incident, when I thought, " ; Well," ; --(laughs)--with a sample of no less than one, but I thought, " ; Ah, this is -- this -- this probably is the norm." ; And that, uh, and Judy and I decided that we could live in Lexington ; we didn' ; t expect to be here long. I told Judy went I went back that if we were to go to Kentucky, because we had to make a decision of what we would do in Seattle or come to Kentucky, we would be there at least -- this is now talking in Seattle -- we' ; d be there at least two years. You do something one year, you see how you can do it better the second year. And I said it could stretch out, we could be there three years. And if it really stretched out, we could be there four years. We had already now four years in Seattle, and then we' ; re off to the next place. Well--(laughs)--we had no children, uh, for, uh, until we came to Kentucky. Our three children were all born in Ken-- Lexington, and, uh, when the time came about accepting an offer to go elsewhere and the kids were still small, we really liked living in Lexington. Um, and, uh, this was in one particular offer when the kids were three, five, and seven, uh, to go back to Boston to my old dental school to head the department there in my specialty area. And, um, I had a Massachusetts dental license, I knew the area, I -- it was easy enough to do. But we really liked Lexington, and we decided that -- that we would stay. Actually, the house we live in now, some -- and have lived in for forty years now, we said, well, if we stayed in Lexington, we would build a house on the lot. We had bought a lot in the late 1960s on, uh, on the lake, on Lakeside Drive here in Lexington and we, uh, we said, " ; OK, we' ; ll do that." ; And it took a few years, and we didn' ; t move in until 1975, but we' ; ve still been in the house. But it was the, um, what brought us to Lexington was the attraction of the dental school and the uniqueness of the dental school which truly was unique and we did a lot of good things in those early years that gained a lot of national attention. But what kept us in Lexington, uh, this is now fifty-three years later, and I retired over eighteen years ago when I turned sixty-five, was the community. Uh, the entire Lexington community, including the, uh, the Jewish community. We really have enjoyed living in Lexington and, uh, and that is what has kept us here. CRANE: And we' ; re glad you came. From a Jewish perspective, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make from Boston to Seattle to Kentucky? SAXE: Uh, Seattle was, um, well when I -- when I lived in Boston, we lived -- as I said, I lived in Malden, a community of some 60,000, north of the city, so it, uh, and we traveled in even though it was only a few miles away into what was called, you know, town. Or in town, which was Boston. So I was living in a -- in a smaller community, and in Seattle we lived in the city, uh, and we did attend, uh, particularly after, uh, my student days, uh, uh, a con-- a small, new congregation that was very friendly and absolutely was a Reform congregation north of the University of Washington. But coming to Lexington, so, well I' ; ll tell you a little story--(laughs)--you want another anecdote. We came, uh, like the first of September for the, uh, the beginning of the new year, beginning of new academic year, and one day, and this was early one, I was at lunchtime at the Dave Greenwald' ; s Delicatessen in Chevy Chase. And I had met a, uh, Leonard Cohen, who lived on Breckenwood, was a neighbor of Leon and Harriet Cooper. And, uh, I' ; ll -- I' ; ll go back and talk about being recruited by the University of Kentucky shortly. But I was sitting in Greenwald' ; s delicatessen and Leonard Cohen and, uh, another gentleman were sitting at a table and I -- and I -- there were three of us at the table and this is September. And Leonard says to me, um, " ; What are you going to do about the holidays? Uh, the new year is coming up, Rosh Hashanah is coming up." ; And I said, " ; Well," ; and, " ; We haven' ; t done -- made any plans, I don' ; t know." ; And it turns out that Leonard is a member of, uh, what was called the Conservative congregation, Ohavey Zion synagogue, and the other fellow was a member of the reform congregation Temple Adath Israel. So Leonard says to me, he says, " ; Well," ; he says -- " ; This is a Friday night," ; -- he says, uh, " ; You should come to my synagogue," ; he said, " ; I' ; ll come by and pick you up." ; And so I turn and I look at the other fellow for a counter offer, and he sits there mute--(laughs)--he doesn' ; t say anything. So I said to Leonard, " ; Sure, you know, we' ; ll -- we' ; ll -- we' ; ll do that." ; So, uh, we went to, uh, Ohavay Zion. As I said, we had been going to some services that was a very small, friendly, new reform congregation in Seattle, and I felt, you know, we would be receptive to either. Uh, Judy' ; s background and her father, my father-in-law was a conservative rabbi, a very dynamic figure who set the standards for how rabbis should act. He was a -- when I met Judy, he had a congregation in South Florida and was there for decades until his retirement and then was still there. But just an extraordinary person and certainly a most extraordinary rabbi. Uh, so that set the standard for me. But anyway, at this point in time, so Friday night came and Leonard Cohen picked us up and we went to Ohavay Zion synagogue and met more people there, and it was the conservative synagogue, and, uh, and that' ; s -- we have been members now, of course it' ; s over half a century. CRANE: What was your position at the dental school? And, um, the specific areas of instruction or faculty responsibilities that you had? SAXE: I, um, I came as the only non-chair. Harry Bohannon, who was the -- who recruited me and who was the first chair of periodontics and later became associate dean and then dean of the college, was a very -- and still he is a very dynamic figure who recruited me to Lexington, and he was the chair -- and then I was -- and so he had another faculty person in periodontics, um, so I was the first non-chair when the chairs would have their meetings that first year or so, I was all by myself. Uh, but uh, Harry then went to become associate dean and, uh, four years later, or so, I was chair of the department of periodontics. At that time, we had multiple departments. They were university recognized, there was a reorganization a few years ago and the entire school just went to two university departments. But periodontics was a -- a uni-- it was a recognized department within the university that had its own -- its own budget, its own physical space, our own conference room. We had -- when I became chair in ' ; 66, I hired -- I had the ability to hire on three more people. We had five, maybe six full time people. Uh, and during that time, in our first years, we gained some notoriety because we developed the first animal model for periodontitis, periodontitis is the concert in periodontal diseases. It' ; s -- it' ; s, uh, loss of bone that holds the teeth and the jaws, and the reason why teeth have to be removed when teeth are lost. And there had been no animal model for periodontitis, and we developed one, you know, with the beagle dog and gave us some notoriety in the late ' ; 60s and early ' ; 70s. Then I, uh, we went on sabbatical. I came back, uh, uh, I co-- it was really a good time. I' ; d do whatever I wanted, I thought, within the college. You know, things changed and we opted not to leave, you know, to stay here. And, uh, our director of graduate studies, uh, and then I, uh, by the ' ; 80s, I became interested in aging and I became interested in aging, actually, through what we had been doing in periodontics because wanted to find out why some older adults maintained most all of their teeth and many older adults had no teeth. Uh, why some of -- really old, old adults could maintain all of -- most all of their dentition. And my background was well you looked as -- you look at something in the tissue, something in the cells, maybe it' ; s the microbiology, maybe it' ; s the organisms that are different that are living in the mouth and around the teeth and -- and I spent six months at the center on aging, the Sanders Brown Center on Aging in the mid ' ; 80s and the really changed -- instead of looking just at the, uh, the -- the biology and the, uh, of the -- of the tissues and the microbiology, uh, the whole concept of attitudes and beliefs and it expanded, uh, my interest and was a great opportunity and I came back to the college of dentistry and, uh, I was, uh, able, uh, with help from the administration that we were able to establish geriatric dentistry as a subject in the college of dentistry ; it' ; s difficult to get time in the curriculum because every hour is basically allocated in a college of dentistry, but we were able to get time in the curriculum and we were very fortunate that Doctor Bob Henry elected to come back to Lexington, uh, in the veteran' ; s administration. He was a student at the University of Kentucky in the college of dentistry and had gone off to do, uh, post-doctoral work and including in geriatric dentistry, and he was a great ally and supporter and co-worker. And together we, uh, put together courses in geriatric dentistry and had set up clinical experiences for the students. And uh, um, that was a really a very, very gratifying work and, uh, and there were a lot of, uh, many other schools around the country too who were beginning to institute programs in, uh, geriatrics and in geriatric dentistry. CRANE: Can -- can you briefly, uh, I guess in layman terms, describe what your findings were? Is this the work that you did with Doctor Wekstein? SAXE: Uh, yes, yeah. David, uh, as -- David Wekstein was instrumental in establishing a center on aging here at the University of Kentucky. He came to Lexington, he and his wife and one daughter at that time, also in the fall of 1962, he was a newly minted PhD from the University of Rochester, though he grew up in Boston. He and his wife grew up in Boston and David started a seminar series in aging when he was a faculty member in physiology. He was recruited as a -- a -- a new -- as I said, as a new PhD came to the department of physiology in the college of medicine here at Kentucky and, uh, he expanded that. He expanded the program, uh, and, uh, the original, uh, titles had to do with research in the biology of aging. And that evolved into what is now the Sanders Brown Center on Aging. And, uh, they -- the center and Bill Markesbery, who was the physician pathologist who headed the center, uh, were very helpful to me and supportive and, uh, in the, uh, in the early ' ; 90s, after we had established ourselves as, uh, as a geriatric dentistry program in the college, uh, we were able to do a major study on the role of, uh, the relationshi-- any relationship between dental amalgam and Alzheimer' ; s disease, and it was David who was instrumental in setting up, uh, their brain study, that is having non-demented older adults agree to give up their brains, uh, upon death for a study. Uh, families of Alzheimer' ; s patients are -- generally have been quite willing, and are quite willing to see that the Alzheimer' ; s, uh, person, uh, goes to autopsy and their brains are available. But having non-demented older adults was very important, and David was instrumental in setting that, uh, program up which has been still ongoing and very successful. So we were able to all-- to join with that and added our component of looking at, uh, dental amalgam in older adults, non-demented older adults as well as, uh, older adults with Alzheimer' ; s disease, and, uh, we were able to show, uh, that -- and we worked closely with Bill Markesbery and David and, uh, with, uh, statisticians, Doctor Kryscio who headed statistics and was really another phenomenal person to work with, and the chemists to do the analysis -- mercury analysis on the brain. And we were able to come up with various ways to measure the size, location, duration in the mouth of silver fillings and, uh, so anyway, the end result of that study after a number of years was to show that there' ; s--(laughs)--no relationship whatsoever to mercury levels in the brain and quite a number areas of the brain to Alzheimer' ; s disease and there' ; s no relationship to levels of mercury in the brain to the size, shape, location, duration in the mouth, to amalgams -- silver amalgams, silver fil-- so called silver fillings, no relationship whatsoever. CRANE: That' ; s good to know. SAXE: Now that' ; s been contested by -- there have been anti-amalgamists since dental amalgam was first used in the end of the last--(laughs)--more than the last, well over a hundred years ago. Uh, people who have, uh, claimed that dental amalgam was very bad and that the mercury is coming off -- small amounts of mercury do come off, rub surfaces, uh, but, uh, there' ; s no relationship to that and mercury in the brain and certainly no relationship to Alzheimer' ; s disease. CRANE: I know that Doctor Wekstein was Jewish, what was it like for you to work with, um, a fellow Jewish faculty, um, from the university? Was it different or the same, or--? SAXE: Well, we, uh, we both grew up in the Boston area. We were, uh, both undergraduates at Boston University, albeit when I graduated, David was just entering college. Um, uh, we also joined together -- well, he was a colleague, not just a professional colleague, but we were also, uh, joined together in, uh, part of the -- those people in the creation of the Lexington havurah, uh, in the 1970s, and um, so we worked together on that. David was a really dynamic individual, he and his family also joined Ohavay Zion synagogue, uh, and David was a real doer, and within a few years was presi-- very few years, was president of the congregation. Um, I was chair of the religious committee, I was on the board in those early years, and we attempted to make some changes, uh, which weren' ; t necessarily well received by the older establishment in the synagogue who didn' ; t want to see these changes made. Now they do exist. For example, the role of women -- an egalitarian congregation. Women were forbidden to go up onto the bema or the platform at the -- at the front of the sanctuary. When my daughter--(laughs)--when my daughter Harriet was Bat Mitzvahed at the age of 12, I was up there on -- and it was done on a Friday night, not on a Saturday morning because women were forbidden to touch the Torah. So the -- the Bat Mitzvah was held at Friday evening and I was allowed -- I was up on the -- on the bema, on the -- at the front of the congregation, but my wife Judy was not allowed. Uh, so we -- we -- uh, uh, anyway, those thing-- that evolved, and of course that' ; s, uh, just a matter of history now. The role of women is accepted and women in that congregation, of course, have, uh, assumed many roles and there have been, uh, the current president is a woman and there have been perhaps two, three other women who have been presidents in recent years. CRANE: That' ; s true. SAXE: But we' ; re talking about, uh, you know, early -- early -- the earlier 1960s. CRANE: What was -- can you maybe tell a little bit more about, um, the havurah and what the climate at the synagogue was like at the time that, um, that was formed and your role or even, um, and as you said Dr. Wekstein' ; s role in it and -- and how that impacted you working relationship? Or did it? SAXE: Well, um, beginning of the havurah, we -- it was formed by, uh, we had, uh, temple members, we had people who belonged to neither of the congregations, and we had perhaps more people from the synagogue. Well, we had tried -- we weren' ; t looking to leave the synagogue, Judy and I never left, we never gave up our membership in Ohavay Zion. We were looking to -- I mentioned the role of women, and also to have a little more animated, perhaps, service on Friday night. I, um, when I was chair of the religious committee at Ohavay Zion and -- must have been late ' ; 60s, maybe early ' ; 70s -- I went to the rabbi and I said, " ; We have some good voices in this congregation and perhaps we can enliven the singing if we asked a few people, four, five or so just to sit down toward the front," ; and the rabbi said, " ; No, that' ; s a choir." ; So what we wanted was just to have a little more animated service and we were -- felt strongly about the role of women, that women should participate in the service, in a service. And so we asked -- we said, " ; Well, perhaps we just had a service in a -- in another room, we just have a few people together to try out something in another room," ; and that wasn' ; t accepted. And it -- so we decided -- there were many -- we tried different things, wasn' ; t being accepted, so we were not looking to quit the synagogue at all, we just wanted to have what today might be called an alternative service where principally women would play a role and, uh, so we set together and, uh, and havurot, the plural of havurah, certainly the Somerville, Massachusetts havurah set the standard as being egalitarian and incorporating other material into the service, not just going page by page in the prayer book. So we decided that we would try a havurot -- a havurah, a single havurah basically to supplement what was going on in the community. And people joined who had belonged to neither congregation, particularly some young people, and we had people who were members and held significant roles in the temple, Temple Adath Israel, as well as from Ohavay Zion synagogue. And we didn' ; t look to compete in terms of starting as a -- having a school for children, that wasn' ; t in our, uh, view, in our vision. And, uh, we, uh, celebrate all the holidays and have continued to do so. And, uh, um, we still -- it' ; s much of a social organization. Uh, everybody' ; s -- and it' ; s peer led, that is everybody contributes in some way ; some people are quite -- and have been quite learned or knowledgeable and some not in terms of Judaism in ritual, and services, uh -- CRANE: And this was during -- it' ; s Rabbi Schwab that was actually the rabbi of this synagogue at the time? SAXE: Yes. CRANE: Okay. SAXE: So, uh, and then of course there have been, uh, you know, great changes that were -- we' ; re talking about in terms of being egalitarian and that were very important to us and have gone along and we' ; ve seen all -- we' ; ve seen both of the major congregations, uh, advance and be concerned about world events and world affairs and what' ; s going on and also in terms of the Jewish world and Israel and what' ; s, you know, universal events. CRANE: As a, um, a Jew working at the University of Kentucky, describe any adjustments that you needed to make, um, if you needed to make them -- SAXE: Ah, that' ; s -- CRANE: -- and how was your Jewishness treated by other faculty, staff, or students? SAXE: (laughs) That was a very, very important part of the University of Kentucky. When I was, um, as I mentioned, Doctor Harry Bohannon recruited me and in the early days, Harry and the other folks, and we all considered ourselves very good at recruiting. What Harry did when I was invited to come here and be here for several days was one evening he asked Roy Jarecky, who was the director admissions in the University of Kentucky college of medicine at that time, to bring together some young Jewish couples. I came here by myself on that first visit, and Roy did at his house, and I can remember there were perhaps four or five, or even more, Jewish couples who were there and I remember there was Harriet and Leon Cooper, and I remembered that particularly because Harriet had a southern accent and I remember going back to Seattle and describing this to Judy and saying I had met this woman with this southern accent -- this Jewish woman with a southern accent, I never met a Jewish woman with a southern accent before. I think Marty and Nicky Kaplan were there. Uh, uh, the Derrers may have been there, Barbara and Shelley Derrer may have been there. And there were others. But that I mention as Harry knew that I was Jewish, that Judy and I were Jewish and that being Jewish would be an important consideration. It wasn' ; t just us, I think he would -- any Jewish person that was being recruited, he would look to see what, uh, uh, that they felt, uh, comfortable. But, but he -- but he fe-- knew this brought together that evening, made it happen thanks to Roy Jarecky. And that was important that I knew there were Jewish couples there, couples our age or maybe a little older, uh, to find out about the community. And when we elected to come to Lexington, a couple who were very welcoming, of course, were Harriet and Leon. They -- they were truly outstanding. Leon still is, of course. But, uh, inviting people to their home and, uh, being a real force, a dynamic force in the Jewish community. And, uh, and a factor in us being -- joining Ohavay Zion synagogue in those early days. Um, the other thing about being recruited to the University of Kentucky, uh, now we' ; re talking times when I was in dental school in the, uh, in the mid ' ; 50s and, uh, and in the late ' ; 50s and early 1960s, there was overt discrimination against Jews, not only as students, which was ending at that time. When I went to Harvard, uh, the discrimination had ended. Um, I had a lot of, um, single syllable last name, uh, fellow students who were Jewish. But the fascinating thing was, I don' ; t know if you' ; d call it fascinating, but the truth was that, uh, that certain dental schools in the United States, uh, were low and did not hire Jewish faculty. Uh, the, uh, American Academy of Periodontology, I' ; m going to digress here for a little bit, when I was a post-doc, uh, there was, uh, led by Dr. Saul Schluger among others who would -- who was head of my program at the University of Washington when I was a post-doc there -- to create a new organiz-- professional organization, the American Academy of Periodontology was a semi-secret organization. In other words, a person could not just send in an application and say, " ; I want to join this professional organization." ; Uh, the American Academy of Periodontology also controlled the board certification for periodontists. Uh, the, uh, one hard to be vouched for by, uh, either one or two members of the organization to join. During my time, there was a well-known black periodontist who wanted to become a member of the American Academy and was refused -- in other words, they wouldn' ; t allow even if he had a, uh, current member to vouch for him. It was -- he wasn' ; t accepted as a member. Um, the officers of the organization were anointed by themselves, so there were a group of periodontists, including Saul Schluger, Walter Cohen from the University of Pennsylvania, and others, non-Jews, who decided we nee-- and also non-periodontists were members of the American Academy of Periodontology, were equal members. One president was an oral surgeon, one president was an oral pathologist, nothing against oral surgeons and oral pathologists, but this purported to be the specialty organization, the professional organization of periodontists in the United States. So those folks got together and created a new organization and it was called the American Society of Periodontists. When I was a faculty person at the--(laughs)--most junior faculty person at the University of Washington, we were going to hold our first meeting ever in Seattle and the plan was to have meetings at a dental school and utilize the facility of the school, and television was a new, uh, new means of uh, of adding onto to -- but were pure lectures and slides before that, having live television demonstrations of procedures at a professional meeting, utilizing the facility of the dental school. And the first one was held at the University of Washington and I was a lowly instructor, but I was chair of the local arrangements committee. It was called the American Society for Periodontists and membership was limited only to periodontists. And after this organization was created, within a couple of years -- and there were alternate meetings, every other year the meeting would be at a dental school and it would break away, uh, from the fall meeting time, uh, of the American Dental Association. At that time, the American Dental Association, and it still does, has its meetings in the fall. Any specialty organization had to, um, deal -- well, I shouldn' ; t say deal with, but the American Dental Association decided where and when the specialty organizations would meet. The oral surgeons, the oral pathologists, the orthodontists, the periodontists would assign them a hotel in the meeting city and generally they would met before the ADA meeting itself. And with this new organization, we were going to meet in the spring, not in September or October, in the ADA meeting city. Uh, within a couple of years, the old American Academy of Periodontology wanted to talk about merging, essentially, and I remember one meeting took place -- they came to a meeting we had in San Antonio, and we had representatives. And the first meeting, the first year, I think the joint meeting was -- may have been 1967 and may not -- no, 1967 was the first -- ah, when the American Society of Periodontists was formed, the plan was to have a meeting at a dental school every other year, and in between years, the meetings were going to be, uh, at this resort outside of Denver, um, and in the interims, we met at the Brown Palace Hotel in Denver. And the first year could be held at this resort, blocking the name of the resort, in Colorado, was 1967 because I remember being there in June 1967 when the six day war occurred in Israel and we were trying to get news out there in this resort. And actually that was the first and last year we had the meeting at that resort because most people preferred to be in the middle of a large city where you could walk out and have access to restaurants and museums and sights. But I remember that because it was 1967. And following that time, there was a merger and the agreement was that the name of the old organization would be used -- mostly because they controlled the board, which was accepted by the American Dental Association, that is the specialty board for periodontists. And we -- ah, and the merger also dictated who would be president of this new organization or the mergered organization, and first year it would be someone from the American Society, then it would be a person from the American Academy, and this was laid out for about five years in advance, and that was followed. And my own thinking was the only reason that the old organization was able to survive was because they held the board, the board certification. That was part of the old organization. And so it continues today, it' ; s quite, uh, it' ; s quite changed. This is, uh, you know, forty-five years later or so, and it' ; s the American Academy of Periodontology. One of the early things about the new, uh, new -- new in 1962, American Society of Periodontists that, uh, Saul Schruger said, " ; And we' ; re going to publish a journal every month." ; At that time, the American Academy was publishing, um, I' ; m not sure if it wasn' ; t even a quarterly, and it was a small little journal, and we' ; re going to have a lot of photographs. And there was a lot of black and white, and then color photographs in the journal of the American Society of Periodontists and it came out every month. And now the, uh, Journal of Periodontology been long well established, it does come out every month, and it' ; s online. But there had been a -- a -- evolution. But, uh, the, uh, racial and religious discrimination was a big factor, uh, in why there was a new organization created. CRANE: Were there other Jewish faculty at the dental school when you were there? SAXE: At the University of Washington? CRANE: No, Kentucky. SAXE: Oh, at the University of Kentucky. Ah. Well, that was a -- a -- one of the important reasons that this school, in terms of being progressive, this new projected school was that there would be no discrimination, no discrimination in the selection of students, and no discrimination in the selection of faculty -- no racial discrimination, no religious discrimination. And in at least one--(laughs)--and this was the beginning of several new dental schools certainly in the south east and not -- we' ; re the lower Midwest, I' ; m convinced, I know that. But in the south east, the new dental schools came where there were none, uh, in the -- in the south east, in Georgia, in Florida, uh, there were dental schools in Tennessee, there were dental schools in South Carolina. Uh, there was racial and religious discrimination and I think I may have mentioned that, for example. I won' ; t mention which southeastern school, but, uh, the dean was, uh, basically almost an avowed anti-Semite, the dean at that time, and he' ; s -- he had publically stated there would be no Jewish faculty. So the idea of having this school here, uh, in a state which is a border state, but that there would be no religious and no, uh, ethnic, and no racial discrimination, was very important. That if you' ; re going to go first class, you accept people on merit, not on the color of their skin or their religious affiliation. So, yeah, that was -- this -- and this -- this was also an innovative thing, uh, in the creation of the college of dentistry at the University of Kentucky. CRANE: What was your relationship with the other Jewish faculty? SAXE: Um, it wasn' ; t -- religion wasn' ; t important, we didn' ; t need, um, we didn' ; t need a click or, uh, no -- it didn' ; t, it wasn' ; t a consideration. I' ; ll tell you--(laughs)--one other story. When I was in the dental school, I guess in the early year or two, I went in the dental clinics. We had to spend a couple years in the medical school, there was no distinction, uh, when I went to dental school. We -- we -- there were sixteen of us and 114 medic-- maybe 114, 115 medical students. We were all treated the same, we did the exact -- at that time, in the 1950s, the curriculum was exactly the same. I did -- we who were in dentistry did tropical medicine, we did OBGYN, I won' ; t go too much into that, but we did -- were called young doctors. And then we went into the dental clinics, and the, um, being in the dental clinic -- so these are all dentists now. And a couple of the upper classmen -- well, first of all, I got an invitation to go to Tufts. There was a Jewish fraternity at the dental school at Tufts across town in Boston and I think I may have gone to that, probably sure I -- I went to whatever it was. Um, and they wanted to recruit students from Harvard to join their organization because we were a very small class, Harvard in dentists, as I said, there were only sixteen of us. I ended up in a graduating class of only twelve, so I knew I was in the top twelve of my class. But I said to an upperclassmen back in the dental school at Harvard about did -- didn' ; t any of the Harvard students or his classmates join this Jewish fraternity? And he looked at me and he said, " ; Do you want to join a fraternity that not all of your classmates can join?" ; And that was the end of it. You know, I never bothered with it. So yeah, there was--(laughs)--we, uh, it wasn' ; t -- it wasn' ; t a question when I was an undergrad -- I mean when I was a dental student. And, um, uh, and I don' ; t have any thoughts about that when I was both a graduate student and a -- and a faculty person at the University of Washington. I wasn' ; t aware of it if there was anything really about religious association or not, and certainly not at the University of Kentucky. That' ; s -- I mean, we sor-- we kind of prided ourselves on that. CRANE: I happen to know that there were at least a few Jewish students attended UK' ; s dental school while you were there, but wondering if there were more than just a few, and what was the percentage of dental students that were Jewish? SAXE: It was a small percentage. I think it -- just as there' ; s a small percentage of the Jewish population in Lexington. If you talk about Louisville, of course there' ; s, uh, a dental school right there in Louisville and al-- you know, it has been for many, many, many, many decades. Uh, so, uh, there were -- and the Jewish students, um, I' ; d say with -- so how many applicants did we have from Lexington? Only very few. Um, there were a couple of Lexington natives -- not natives, but young people who grew up in Lexington who came to the dental school. And then we had out of state students, we had out of state students from New York, we had out of state students from Texas. There were few, but they -- they -- probably more out of state. We had one, uh, actually, uh, a young woman who came from New York who, um, whose son also -- and then moved back, moved to New England -- uh, but whose son came here to the University of Kentucky to go to dental school and is currently on the faculty of the UK college of dentistry. But in terms of Jewish students, they were relatively few and of those few, I would say more than half came from out of state. CRANE: What -- what would be the attraction for an out of state Jewish student to come here to go to dental school? SAXE: Ah, well, as I' ; ve said -- I' ; ve been reti-- all right, maybe I didn' ; t say, I' ; ve been retired for eighteen years and while I have a--(laughs)--a post-retirement appointment, uh, in the last number of years, I -- I -- I really -- I, you know, I show up and I talk to some of the staff people who were still there. But, uh, I mention in the early years, we were unique in those early years and we did have a national reputation. Unique in how the curriculum was set up, uh, unique in that it attracted some very good people -- I' ; ll tell you an anecdote about that. In the early years, I was in a national meeting and someone came up to me and said -- this may have been in the late ' ; 60s -- and came up to me and said, " ; What' ; s going -- what' ; s -- what' ; s wrong at the University of Kentucky?" ; And I said, " ; Well, what do you mean what' ; s wrong? What' ; s wrong? What' ; s -- what' ; s -- what' ; s going on?" ; And the person said, " ; Well, so many people are leaving." ; And I said, " ; Oh yes. You know, so-and-so went down to be dean at this school," ; in the early days there was a new school at the University of Georgia and John Hickey went down to become dean. Uh, John DiBiaggio, uh, left and he became dean, uh, at Virginia, he went on to become president of Michigan State. Uh, he became president of the University of Connecticut. Uh, we had many people and when there was a new dental school in Florida, we had people who went down to become, uh, department chairs. Uh, we had department chairs at Kentucky who became deans at other schools, uh, and that' ; s what happened. It wasn' ; t as if they were leaving because they weren' ; t happy, but they were offered, uh, well, myself, you know, but I opted to stay here -- not to become a dean, but to head my area in my own school, which would be attractive. But it was the community, we decided to stay here at that time, that was a -- a very large pull. So there were people who did leave and, um, uh, because we -- and I say they left because the school had a very good reputation of attracting bright young people, uh, in as faculty and then these faculty -- many of them moved on to assume positions elsewhere, and that still goes on. If you look at, uh, deans of dental schools across the United States and people in positions in dentistry, uh, we' ; ve had our -- our -- perhaps more than our share of people who were students here and who were faculty here who' ; ve moved on to other dental schools. CRANE: Describe any specific resources the school offered to the Jewish students. Um, the relationship between the greater Lexington Jewish community and the Jewish students at the dental school. SAXE: (laughs) Well, I -- I don' ; t know if there was anything special except that the community -- the Jewish community, I think, was greatly influenced by the fact that Lexington grew a great deal in the 1960s and in the 1970s. This meant that a lot of folks came in, I can only speak for the medical center, who didn' ; t have families here in Lexington, that is blood relatives here in Lexington. That certainly was true when Judy and I came in the early 1960s and people who were coming at that time in the later ' ; 60s and in the ' ; 70s, so they relied on friendships for close associations and that type of environment, I think, would have encompassed Jewish students who wanted to -- or any students who wanted to reach out into the community because I think this has been a very welcoming community. And partly, uh, it may be the nature -- we have to give credit to, uh, to -- to the native Lexingtonians, to some of them, for creating this unique community and much of the credit goes to people who came in from other parts of the country. When we came in, and I' ; ll include myself, came in from other parts of the country, particularly from big cities, we' ; re used to the fact that the school system -- that one needs equality school system. Uh, you need social services, uh, that we saw in other cities and we expected and there was a demand, and the merger of the school systems between county and, uh, city. Uh, and the quality, uh, was promoted a lot by people who came in from other areas who, uh, look at people on the urban county council now, you look at Pam Miller who became mayor, people who came in from other places. Ralph Miller was recruited, came in from because of the University of Kentucky medical center, brought in people from other places who were concerned about the quality of life in this community and, uh, um, and then made it more attractive for other people to come in from elsewhere. But I think the medical center played a major, major role in that -- in -- in all of the colleges. Uh, talk about Je-- the first dean of what was then called the College of Allied Health-- Allied Health Sciences was Joe Hamburg. And -- who was Jewish -- and, uh, that was it. It was, um, I -- I had--(laughs)--we ha-- we now have, as you know, Mike Karp has a -- the, um, heading the medical center, you know, is a Jewish person who came in. Today we have, uh, a Jewish president of the University of Kentucky. Uh, and it' ; s all to the credit of the university that looked for, uh, the leadership and looked for the qualities in an individual that would be a benefit to the commonwealth and the university, not looking at their religious affiliation as the -- as a -- as an important factor. So, uh, Judy and I feel very comfortable in making the decision that we stayed in Lexington and there was no question when I was going to retire and I said -- I' ; ve been retired now for over eighteen years -- that we' ; re going to stay in Lexington, Lexington is our home, our kids are all across the country and now they' ; re concentrated in the Pacific Northwest, uh, this is true of many of the young people I guess in Lexington -- they' ; re looking to go to larger urban areas and other, uh, opportunities and challenges. But, um, we are very, very pleased to have made the decision to come to Lexington and to have stayed in Lexington. CRANE: Is it -- while you were busy at the University, um, of Kentucky in the dental school, you were also very active in the Jewish community. Um, you' ; ve already mentioned your role, um, as religious chair and board -- board members at the synagogue and the -- the havurah, but, uh, I know that you were also active in the federation, the Jewish federation. If you could just briefly tell just a little bit about that. SAXE: Yes. Uh, you know, as, uh, you -- when it' ; s heard, the current federation came out of, uh, what was a -- and what still is a, uh, a day camp during the summer that several, uh, Jewish women put together. Um, and by this time, it must have been uh, I' ; m not sure that -- when Camp Shalom, the first session -- in the late ' ; 60s, early ' ; 70s, um, and um, from that -- the -- and -- and one of the, um, a le-- and actually a native Lexingtonian was very important. This was not all from people who came into Lexington. Sue Friedman, who was--(laughs)--a native Lexingtonian and, uh, a social worker and a -- just an extraordinary human being, was concerned about social services, uh, in the city and in the Jewish community. And from Camp Shalom, the beginnings, the organization, the women who put it together, the need for an organization to exist not just during the summer--(laughs)--as a summer camp, but an all year round to provide social services also to meld together fundraising. Uh, and the first organization of which I was a member and I think I served as a secretary when it was called the Jewish Community Association or the JCA, uh, from the Jewish Community Association, uh, Dave Wekstein and Chuck Gorodetsky got together sort of on their own and decided there needed to be a new constitution and came up with the Central Kentucky Jewish Association. Uh, and from that, the Central Kentucky Jewish Association led to joining, uh, and becoming a federation into the Central Kentucky Jewish Federation and now we are the Jewish Federation of the, uh, Bluegrass. Uh, so I served on those boards in the past, and actually when I retired, talking about my retirement, I was asked to go on a couple of boards, one of which was the, uh, the Central Kentucky Jewish Federation and, uh, I did and then they said, " ; Well, you know, we really need somebody on the executive committee, we need a -- uh -- a vice president." ; And so I said, " ; Well, I can do that." ; And then after a bit they said, " ; You know, we really want to create line of succession so that, uh, perhaps next time around or next time around you would be the president." ; And I said, " ; Oh, no. I didn' ; t sign up to the be the president. They know -- been there, done that. I don' ; t want to be the president." ; So I came home and I told that story to Judy and she looked at me and she said, " ; You have a responsibility." ; So I became the president. Yeah, no, I think that we all feel a sense of responsibility and, uh, and -- and -- and that' ; s what does it. We have a responsibility because we take from this community, this is a good community in which to live, and one has to do something about it and participate and, uh, one has a responsibility. CRANE: What kind of supports and challenges were there, uh, in Lexington to raise your Jewish children? Or to raise your children Jewish? SAXE: To raise your children Jewish. Oh, I think it was, uh, it has been relatively easy, uh, because this being a smaller community. Uh, people talk about, uh, in large -- larger communities, I talk about New York, you' ; re surrounded by it. You know, the -- the bagel and the corned beef and the foods, they' ; re always there -- uh, nobody -- you know, you don' ; t have to do anything about this or that and the holidays are observed. But when you live in a smaller community, you have to work to see that there' ; s, uh, for example, in the public schools, a number of people have been concerned when there have been, uh, the classic things scheduled, exams, or--(coughs)--against, uh, major Jewish holidays, for example. Uh, this has been an -- and, uh, I think Judy has gone, certainly I know we' ; re talking a lot, and rightfully so, about Dave Wekstein who chaired the, uh, community relations community and with others going to the latest superintendent of schools, presenting a calendar, and saying, " ; These are the days of, uh, of the Jewish -- major Jewish holidays, and having a major public school event or scheduling exams, um, you know, major exams in the public schools on these dates creates problems." ; And, uh, but, uh, that, um, that' ; s been done. We' ; ve had a number of people who have committed to doing that. Oh, one of the things also we had in its day, the, uh, NCCJ -- National Conference of Christians and Jews, which then expanded to include Islam and -- and -- and others. But, um, we -- it' ; s eas-- it was easier to do and we had a discussion groups, um, we didn' ; t call it a discussion group, we called it an interfaith dialogue. Easier to do, I think, in -- in this city. I can remember going with Franklin Moosnick and George Zack to like rotary clubs, to service clubs, and because many of these people had -- they' ; d grown up in central Kentucky, had no contact, uh, with minorities. And, uh, George Zack would talk about growing up, uh, Greek Orthodox in the south, uh, I' ; d talk about being Jewish, I didn' ; t think that was terribly unique. And um, uh, but it was pretty straightforward and easy to do in a community of this size, so we went to the meetings, we talked a little bit, I didn' ; t think I was particularly unique--(laughs)--I' ; m not sure what I would talk about, people asked me questions. Um, but it was easy to do in this community. It, uh, of this size -- easy to get around, you identified names of lots of folks, uh, but again, um, you know, I' ; ve only lived in, uh, in -- in three different communities and most of my time spent in this one. CRANE: Okay. So you' ; ve been here a long time. How is the Jewish community in Lexington changed over time? SAXE: Oh, I think, first of all, I think the community perhaps would have changed regardless, but an important consideration was the, uh, new people coming into the community. Uh, brought in by IBM, brought in by the University of Kentucky, certainly the medical center contributed a lot of folks within a shorter period of time. IBM brought in those five hundred families, uh, when they first came. Uh, and the -- as Lexington began to grow, uh, and, uh, people who are looking to establish a business or a franchise and go to the most rapidly growing areas, certainly Lexington did that. So a lot of businesses and franchises came in, uh, in the ' ; 60s and the ' ; 70s and brought in a lot of different, uh, people. Brought in a number of Jewish people, uh, because of the work situation. Uh, and, um, that was one of -- that was a particular uniqueness of Lexington, its rapid growth. Certainly in the northeast, uh, I think like my home town sti-- still ha-- limited amount of space, but still has probably a population of 60,000, same as it did, you know, seventy-five years ago. Uh, the population, the, uh, the population has changed, uh, in terms of its background and ethnicity, but uh, uh Lexington had a -- has had a lot of room, uh, in which to grow physically and expand and its population has grown. And I' ; m meeting a lot of folks who have come in not only from other parts of the state but from outside, uh, the commonwealth. CRANE: What is your most vivid special memory of raising your children in Lexington in your Jewish life? SAXE: In the Jewish life, well, as I said, I think it was easy because of the size of the community, that the, uh, the children all went to Ohavay Zion' ; s Sunday school, uh, and, uh, it was -- it was easy to do. You didn' ; t have to work out to too complicated a transportation system, to see that they got there. Uh, um, and, uh, and then with the organizations in the city, uh, there were various events. Uh, so this synagogue existed and its Sunday school, uh, the havurah had events, uh, Hadassah -- I don' ; t know if that i-- really involved the children so much, but that, uh, Hadassah became a rather dynamic organization. Uh, and a lot of it from the women who were already resident in Lexington before our time, uh, to whom Judy, uh, owes a great deal, um, uh, uh, yeah. The -- these were women who were quite involved when Judy came and were helpful to her from the Ades Family and the Rosenberg family in pa-- that I can recall who were active. But in terms of the kids, um, uh, yeah, well through Hadassah. Hadassah, for example, sponsored young Judaea, which became a force for, uh, our children and for other young people, uh, through here in town and then certainly through the summer camps. Uh, there are a number of Jewish summer camps that kids here went to, uh, our kids went to the, uh, Young Judaea camps as small children and then as councilors until the high school camp, and then to the overseas program to the -- the -- the summer program in Israel and the year in Israel following high school. So Hadassah, as an organization in the city, and Young Judaea played a role, played a very important role in raising our kids Jewish. CRANE: Is there anything -- we' ; ve talked about all kinds of stuff today, um, certainly enjoyed listening to all your stories. Um, is there anything else that you would like to share that you haven' ; t already shared? Including, um, if you wanted to say something about Israel, um, politics, anything that you would just like to share before we end the interview? SAXE: Well, I think--(laughs)--uh, a couple of weeks ago, two or three weeks ago, we were in New York and, uh, we were in New York, uh, because Mike and Charlotte Beard' ; s son was married, and, uh, Mike and Charlotte came here. Mike, uh, pretty sure came here right after he received his PhD in political science from Oregon, came into the political science department, then chaired the political science department, became Dean of Arts and Sciences, and then moved on to become provost at Northeastern. But they always -- and now he' ; s in Washington, uh, work for an accrediting agency and now is, um, important, uh, in doing, uh, searching for academic leadership at do-- university presidents in Washington D.C. They always kept their ties with Lexington, always kept their tie with Lexington even, uh, after they left. Well even after they left, after they left it was very important to then, important to us. So we go to the wedding in, uh, in New York City and, uh, one of the things we do is to go to the new Hadassah with Judy and Gail Cohen and I, go up to visit the new Hadassah national office in -- in -- in Manhattan, they had moved, so they' ; re in some new offices and there I am, and I know some of the women that I had met, uh, before. Uh, and they' ; re recognized by many of the women there because they' ; d been on the national board for a long time, but also Gail Cohen and Judy Saxe are former national vice-presidents of Hadassah and the joke used to be -- and Marilyn Moosnick was the first, was a national vice-president of Hadassah and then Gail was and then Judy. And the joke was that Lexington, Kentucky must be a hot bed of Zionism because three national vice-presidents of Hadassah have from -- come from out in the country from this little town out god knows where, you know, somewhere west of New York City. And so that brought that home because we -- then I thought of that again about being a hotbed of Zionism, but it isn' ; t, but we have a lot of, uh, committed people, uh, and that has grown over the years. People who are committed, uh, to Zionism, people who are committed to the state of Israel. And we have had a lot of young people, a number of yo-- or young people who have done the year in Israel program, uh, and have visited at ot-- at other times. Um, so yes, I think there' ; s a -- a -- Lexington is a presence. Lexington, I might even say, is a force, uh, for, uh, pro-Israel or, uh, promotion of Israel and the defense of Israel. And a great concern for the welfare of Israel exists here in Lexington, Kentucky. CRANE: Well, I thank you very much for everything you' ; ve shared with us today. SAXE: Well, thank you. [End of audio file] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh472_jk013_saxe_ohm.xml 2015oh472_jk013_saxe_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Stanley Saxe, December 3, 2015
Description
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Dr. Stanley Saxe introduces himself and his family. He discusses his family's migration from Russia to America and his parents' life and work in the tobacco industry. He also describes his childhood in Malden, Massachusetts. From quotas limiting the number of Jewish students accepted to universities to the anti-Semitic rhetoric of public figures such as Charles E. Coughlin and Henry Ford, Saxe remembers the discrimination that he and his family experienced during the 1930s in Boston.
Saxe describes his move to Seattle in order to pursue a post-doctoral opportunity in periodontics at the University of Washington. While in Seattle, Saxe was invited to join the newly established College of Dentistry at the University of Kentucky. Saxes describes the biggest differences in regard to his Jewish practices between Boston, Seattle, and Lexington, particularly due to location relative to community centers and the values of each Jewish community. He also shares the story about how he was invited to attend holiday services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue by a friend when he first moved to Lexington, and he has been a member ever since. Saxe describes the shift to a more tolerant opinion about the role of women at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and his involvement with the establishment of a Havurah, or an egalitarian and alternative service, in the 1970s. Saxe outlines the many roles he has played in the Lexington Jewish community, including his time with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass.
Saxe describes his work at the University of Kentucky, including his chairmanship of the department of periodontics, the establishment of courses in geriatric dentistry, and a major research project investigating the relationship between mercury dental fillings and the development of Alzheimer's disease with the Sanders-Brown Center on Aging. Discrimination within the American Academy of Periodontology led to the creation of a new professional organization for periodontists, the American Society of Periodontists in 1960.
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2015oh472_jk013
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Minorities in higher education
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Religion
Worship (Judaism)
Discrimination.
Anti-Semitism
Antisemitism
Jews--Identity.
Lexington (Ky.)
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video
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https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/7491e1aa215d83b617f37b1dd0a08d05.jpeg
c677d75dc0e406866565934633dacd06
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Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Judy Saxe
Interview Keyword
Gender roles
Israel.
Religion and politics
Holidays.
Fasts and feasts--Judaism.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh471_jk012 Interview with Judy Saxe, December 1, 2015 2015oh471_jk012 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jewish families. Religion Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Jewish children Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Gender roles Israel. Religion and politics Holidays. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Judy Saxe Janice Crane 1:|20(15)|30(10)|46(1)|54(14)|70(13)|85(5)|96(11)|105(1)|113(16)|124(1)|133(12)|144(14)|157(6)|169(17)|182(5)|193(9)|210(3)|219(14)|233(3)|256(1)|264(16)|273(6)|283(7)|292(1)|303(14)|312(7)|324(11)|340(3)|350(2)|364(8)|374(5)|382(11)|393(4)|405(4)|415(12)|424(8)|433(12)|444(1)|456(7)|465(5)|474(10)|484(7)|495(8)|505(10)|515(11)|524(9)|533(14)|543(9)|559(13)|566(15)|580(4)|588(11)|598(11)|607(3)|617(6)|636(5)|645(3)|655(10)|664(13)|679(5)|688(17)|698(3)|708(7)|729(6)|740(5)|750(6)|758(3)|770(1)|781(1)|793(8)|804(5)|814(2)|823(12)|833(4)|842(4)|850(6)|860(3)|869(15)|879(4)|897(4)|910(12)|918(15)|928(3)|937(12)|948(5)|959(9)|972(11)|984(5)|994(3)|1003(17)|1014(16)|1025(11)|1036(1)|1045(11)|1063(8)|1071(12)|1080(12)|1091(3)|1100(15)|1115(14)|1124(3)|1132(10)|1141(9)|1150(5)|1159(14)|1170(2)|1181(5)|1191(5)|1206(12)|1216(2)|1223(16)|1232(5)|1241(6)|1248(12)|1256(4)|1265(9)|1275(4)|1287(1)|1295(7)|1305(13)|1315(8)|1325(3)|1339(3)|1355(8)|1365(9)|1383(11) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253337678" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family history For official purposes, today is December 1st, 2015. My name is Janice Crane, and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I'm honored to be here today with Judy Saxe. Judy Saxe discusses her family history. Her mother, Leila Sinaiko, was a physical education teacher. Her father, David Shapiro, was a rabbi. Her paternal grandparents were both born in Jerusalem. Her paternal grandparents came from a small town in Belarus. She has one younger brother currently living in Jerusalem. Her husband is Stanley Saxe, with whom she has three children, Harriet, Natalie and Neil. Belarus ; David Shapiro ; English ; Green Bay, Wisconsin ; Harriet Saxe ; Jerusalem ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project ; Judy Saxe ; Kapul ; Leila Sinaiko ; Madison, Wisconsin ; Natalie Saxe ; Neil Saxe ; Palestine ; Stanley Saxe ; University of Wisconsin ; Yiddish Families. ; Family histories. ; Family--history ; Jewish families. 53.709807, 27.953389000000016 17 Belarus 397 Relationship with Judaism Uh, your father was a rabbi, how would you describe your parents', both your mother and your father's, relationship to Judaism? Saxe discusses her and her family's relationship to Judaism. Both her father and her grandfather were rabbis. Judy Saxe examines her family customs of keeping kosher and Shabbat practices. Conservative ; First World War ; Haddassah ; Hebrew ; Henrietta Szold ; Holocaust ; Israel ; Jewish identity ; Kosher ; Madison, Wisconsin ; Nazism ; New York City ; Orthodox ; Poland ; Rabbi ; Second World War ; Shabbat ; University of Wisconsin ; World War I ; World War II ; Zionism ; Zionist Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 44.51915899999999, -88.01982599999997 17 Green Bay, Wisconsin, where Judy Saxe's father, David Shapiro, had a congregation. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Health/Hadassah.html The Jewish Virtual Library's documents on Haddassah, and its founder, Henrietta Szold. 1143 Jewish college life at Brandeis Uh, where did you go to school? Um-- Judy Saxe discusses the role of Judaism in her life in college at Brandeis University. She participated in the Student Zionist Organization and eventually took a year off school to do a work-study program in Israel. American Zionist Youth Commission ; Hadassah ; Hillel ; Israel ; IZFA ; Jewish Agency for Israel ; Student Zionist Organization ; The International Zionist Federation of America ; University of Washington ; Young Judea ; Zionism ; Zionist Brandeis University ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; Judaism. 42.36628450000001, -71.25873430000001 17 Brandeis University, where Judy Saxe studied sociology. 1448 Arrival to Kentucky in 1962 Before we get too much into your life here in Kentucky, is there anything unique we should know about your family background or childhood years that you haven't already mentioned? Judy Saxe discusses the series of events that led to her and her family living in Lexington, Kentucky. She was married to her husband, Stanley Saxe, in 1958, after which he got a job at the University of Washington so the pair moved to Seattle. Stanley Saxe was later recruited by the University of Kentucky to help start the dental school. In 1962, they moved to Lexington where they have stayed ever since. 1962 ; Brandeis University ; Florida ; Israel ; Jewish community ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Madison, Wisconsin ; Ohavay Zion ; Periodontics ; Seattle, Washington ; Stanley Saxe ; University of Kentucky ; University of Washington ; Young Judaea Dental schools ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Universities and colleges--Faculty. ; University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry 47.655, 122.308 17 The University of Washington, where Stanley Saxe attended and then taught for a few years. http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt712j683m9j_236 Stanley Saxe is listed on the Bulletin of the University of Kentucky in 1964 as a professor in periodontics at UK's dental school. 1790 Holiday observance in Lexington Describe Judaism in your home as an adult in Lexington and as a parent. Saxe discusses how her family observed the high holidays in Lexington, Kentucky. Her children were often the only Jewish children in their classes at school, prompting Saxe to come to school and explain Judaism on numerous occasions. Saxe taught at Hebrew and Sunday school for a number of years and eventually became the principal. Conservative ; Hadassah ; Hebrew schools ; Jewish ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Marilyn Moosnick ; Ohavay Zion ; Orthodox ; Rabbi Schwab ; Sunday School ; Synagogue ; Young Judaea Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Lexington (Ky.) 37.9986288, -84.47181260000002 17 Ohavay Zion Synogogue http://www.ozs.org/ The website for Ohavay Zion Synogoge 2294 Lexington Havurah beginning in 1977 I know that you were actively involved in the formation of the Havurah. Uh, can you first describe what the Havurah is, and tell about the Jewish community's climate that was key to its formation? Judy Saxe discusses the formation of the Lexington Havurah and how it has transformed today. 1977 ; Boston ; Brandeis University ; Conservative ; Havurah ; Ohavay Zion ; Ori Smith ; Orthodox ; Rabbi Schwab ; Reconstructionist Judaism ; Reform ; Reform movement ; Somerville, Massachusetts Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky https://jewishlexington.org/community-directory/the-lexington-havurah The Jewish Community of Lexington's website on Havurah as a synogogue. 3547 Raising Jewish children in Lexington 1960s-1980s Um, to the best of your ability, how did your children, not that we know what our children's thoughts and feelings are all the time, but how did your children feel about their Jewishness in Lexington? Judy Saxe discusses her children's experiences growing up Jewish in Lexington. Her son, Neil, at one point was in trouble for not praying at his soccer games. She also discusses the positive and negative sides of raising Jewish children in Lexington. 1960s ; 1980s ; Anti-Semitism ; Glendover School ; High holidays ; Jewish ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Merle Weckstein ; Natalie Saxe ; Neil Saxe ; Ohavay Zion ; Wisconsin Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 38.0076568, -84.50231309999998 17 Glendover Elementary School in Lexington, Kentucky. All three of Judy Saxe's children attended this school. 4115 Lexington Hadassah I know that you've been very involved with Hadassah. Both at the local and the national level. Um, if you could briefly explain what Hadassah is, and tell me about your involvement with Hadassah, both locally and nationally, um, when you got involved and why. Judy Saxe discusses her involvement with Hadassah both locally and nationally. Betty Rosenberg ; Frankie Yeaties ; Hadassah ; Hadassah Hospital ; Hannah Levi ; Israel ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Madison, Wisconsin ; Marilyn Moosnick ; Ohavay Zion ; Synagogue Sisterhood ; Temple Adath Israel ; Young Judaea ; Youth Aliyah ; Zionism ; Zionist Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Volunteers 40.7643899, -73.9759029 17 The national headquarters of Hadassah http://www.hadassah.org/ Hadassah's national website 4766 Lexington women's leadership in Hadassah since 1969 Judy, it's my understanding that not just yourself but, um, others that there's a, a s--disproportionate amount of women involved in Hadassah... Judy Saxe discusses why there have been so many women in leadership positions at Hadassah from Lexington since 1969 to now. 1969 ; Alex Cohen ; Anita Baker ; Becky Golden ; Betty Rosenberg ; Ellen Henson ; Esther Moskowitz ; Frankie Yeaties ; Gail Cohen ; Hadassah ; Hannah Levi ; Harriet Cooper ; Israel ; Jewish community ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Marilyn Moosnick ; National board ; Ohavay Zion ; Ross Moosnick ; Women in leadership ; Young Judaea ; Zionism ; Zionist Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Volunteers 38.05257599999999, -84.72994640000002 17 Versailles, Kentucky, whose Hadassah functions as part of the Lexington Hadassah chapter. 5234 Feelings on Israel Judy, I know that, um, you know, you come from a really significant Israeli background, you're... Judy Saxe discusses her views on Israel and its politics. Antisemitism ; Democratic ; Extremist ; Government ; Hitler ; Holocaust ; Homeland ; Israeli ; Jewish ; Jews ; Netanyahu ; Palestine ; Political views ; Refugees ; United States of America ; Western world ; Zionism ; Zionist Israel. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Politics and government ; Religion and politics 31.046051, 34.85161199999993 17 Israel 5664 Role in the Jewish Federation Besides your involvement in Hadassah, I know that you've been very active with the Jew, Jewish Federation. Judy Saxe discusses her involvement in the Jewish Federation. She has been involved with Camp Shalom for many years. She is also a member of the Jewish Community Association. Saxe was the director from 1981 to 1986. AIPAC ; Camp Shalom ; Central Kentucky Jewish Association ; Chuck Gordesky ; Congregation ; Dave Weckstein ; David Weckstein ; David Wheel ; Directors ; Earl Levi ; Federations of North America ; Gail Cohen ; Irv Rosenstein ; Jack Miller ; Jewish Community Association ; Jewish Community Forum ; Jewish Federation ; Judy Levine ; Kitzy Neuberger ; Leon Cooper ; Mike Bayer ; Molly Schwab ; Presidents ; Rabbis ; Romany Road ; Shelly Dare ; Southland Drive ; Stanley Rose ; Steve Caller ; Sue Friedman ; United Jewish Appeal ; Waller Avenue ; Waller Pharmacy ; Washington, D.C. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.02967, -84.51757629999997 17 Waller Avenue, where the office for the Federation once was located. http://jewishlexington.org/camp-shalom The website for Camp Shalom 6530 Funding for the Lexington Jewish Federation Today Judy, I just recently read that the funding for the Federation has declined. And I also read that Judy Wortman, who is the present director, is moving, and there's going to be a search for a new director. Judy Saxe discusses why she thinks funding for the Federation has decreased recently. Boston ; Directors ; Funding ; Fundraising ; Herschel Wheel ; Israel ; Jewish community ; Jewish Farmers of America ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish Future Farmers ; Judy Wortman ; Lexington ; Steve Kahler ; Wealth Fund raising ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 6970 Changes in Lexington's Jewish community from 1962 to 2015 Okay Judy, um, you've seen a lot in Lexington, you've been really active in several organizations, in the synagogue, in the Havurah and Hadassah, and, uh, the Federation, and if you could just-- Judy Saxe discusses the changes she has witnessed in Lexington's Jewish community over time. The Jewish community has increased in size, and consequently become more diffuse. The development of social services has become more sophisticated. She provides a narrative of strong community support, especially around funerals and supporting family members left behind. She discusses the Jewish community's attempt to both support Jewish community and the broader Lexington community. She also discusses the impact of greater assimilation on the preservation of Jewish identity. 1962 ; Acculturation ; Anti-Semitism ; Assimilation ; B'nai Brith ; God's Pantry ; Hadassah ; Havurah ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Jewish identity ; Judaism ; Lexington ; The Jewish Federation Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.08534899999999, -84.51849600000003 17 The address of God's Pantry in Lexington, Kentucky. This is where Judy Saxe and other members of the Jewish community help to stock shelves. https://www.godspantry.org/ The website for God's Pantry Food Bank. 7373 Change in Jewish gender roles Looking back, what, if anything, would you change about your relationship with Judaism, if there's anything? Judy Saxe discusses how she would change her relationship to Judaism. She expresses her desire to become a rabbi and calls attention to the way Jewish gender roles have changed throughout Saxe's entire life. Brandeis University ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Feminism ; Gender roles ; Hebrew Union College ; Jewish ; Jewish Theological Seminary ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Rabbis ; Sally Prizand Gender issues ; Jewish leadership ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Sex role 39.138374, -84.52022599999998 17 Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, Ohio. http://huc.edu/campus-life/cincinnati The website for Hebrew Union College interview Judy Saxe discusses her family history. She discusses her and her family's relationship to Judaism. Both her father and her grandfather were rabbis. Judy Saxe examines her family customs of keeping kosher and Shabbat practices. Judy Saxe discusses the role of Judaism in her life in college at Brandeis University. She participated in the Student Zionist Organization and eventually took a year off school to do a work-study program in Israel. Judy Saxe discusses the series of events that led to her and her family living in Lexington, Kentucky. Saxe discusses how her family observed the high holidays in Lexington, Kentucky. She discusses her children's experiences growing up Jewish in Lexington. Judy Saxe discusses the formation of the Lexington Havurah and how it has transformed today. Saxe discusses her involvement with Hadassah both locally and nationally. She discusses why there have been so many women in leadership positions at Hadassah from Lexington since 1969 to now. Saxe discusses her involvement in the Jewish Federation. Judy Saxe discusses her views on Israel and its politics. Judy Saxe discusses the changes she has witnessed in Lexington's Jewish community over time. She discusses how she would change her relationship to Judaism. She expresses her desire to become a rabbi and calls attention to the way Jewish gender roles have changed throughout her entire life. CRANE: For official purposes, today is December 1st, 2015. My name is Janice Crane, and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I' ; m honored to be here today with Judy Saxe. Thank you for doing this, Judy. Uh, what was your name at birth? SAXE: My name at birth was uh, actually Beverly Judith Shapiro. And my parents very quickly changed it to Judy. CRANE: That' ; s interesting. When and where were you born? SAXE: I was born September 19th, 1935, Madison, Wisconsin. CRANE: And are your parents alive? SAXE: No, my parents passed away uh, quite a number of years ago now. CRANE: And what were your parents' ; names? And their occupations? SAXE: My -- oh. My mother was uh, Leila Sinaiko, that' ; s spelled S-I-N-A-I-K-O, um, and she, uh, was a phys ed teacher. She went to -- graduated from the University of Wisconsin. My dad, uh, who was born in Palestine, in Jerusalem, uh, came as a young teenager to this country. Uh, ended up with both a rabbinical degree and a law degree. And um, wound up finally uh, working as a rabbi, but had done a number of other things as well. His name was David Shapiro. CRANE: Did your parents and/or grandparents names change when they came to America? SAXE: I don' ; t think so. I think um, I remember my paternal grandparents, my grandfather was Nahum, my grandmother was Nahama, and I don' ; t think they ever changed it. My grandmother actually never really learned English. Their -- their common language was really Yiddish. And um, my maternal grandparents um, my grandmother' ; s name was Rachel. So, it might have -- they might have used the Yiddish version at some point, but it was Rachel. My grandfather was Alex. And there was a kind of a Russianized form of it that uh, that evidently, they called him. But by the time I knew him, he was Alex, and that was how he was listed in -- in the obituary and all of that sort of thing. CRANE: And where were your grandparents from? SAXE: My paternal grandparents, um, actually both were born in Jerusalem. CRANE: Oh. SAXE: My grandmother was from an -- a very old, old family, many generations in Palestine, part of the Jewish community. And -- before it became Israel. And my grandfather' ; s parents migrated to Palestine in around 1850. My grandfather was born, along with multiple siblings, born in Jerusalem. My maternal grandparents, my grandfather -- well they came from a small town in Belarus, and -- called -- they called it Kapulya, but on the Russian maps, it' ; s -- Belarussian maps, it' ; s Kapul. And my grandmother originally came from Poland, and I do not remember how she met my grandfather, but they lived -- they were married and lived in Kapul, and uh, had, um, all but I think -- I think they had seven of their eight surviving children all in Belarus before they came to this country, and I believe one of my uncles, the youngest, was born here in the United States. But they came to Madison when they -- when they came, because my grandfather' ; s uh, other members of my grandfather' ; s family had already come to -- to Madison. CRANE: Do you have siblings, Judy? SAXE: I have a brother. CRANE: And what is his name, and where is he in the lineage? Is he older, younger? SAXE: Oh, he' ; s about uh, three and a half years younger than I am. And he was born in Green Bay, Wisconsin. My dad had a congregation there at the time he was born. Um, and um, he uh, he lives in Jerusalem. He went back to uh, Israel in 1959, actually as a student, and basically he never left. He -- he did a lot of traveling, he lived in Rome and worked in Rome for a number of years at one point, but he uh, basically lived in Israel the whole time. CRANE: And what is your husband' ; s name? SAXE: My husband' ; s name is Stanley. Stanley Richard Saxe. Um -- CRANE: And do you have um, children? And what are their ages and do you have grandchildren? And what are their ages? SAXE: Yeah. All -- all of the above. (laughter) I -- we have three children. The oldest is Harriet, who all of our children were born here in Lexington. Uh, the oldest is Harriet, who was born September 13th, 1963, and uh, the next one was Natalie, born November 17th, 1965. Uh, and Neil was born December 10th, 1967. Um, they all live in the state of Washington now. And uh, Harriet is the mother of our two younger granddaughters, Zoe, who' ; s almost 16, and Olivia who' ; s 13 and a half. And Natalie is not married, Neil has our oldest granddaughter, Hila, that' ; s spelled H-I-L-A, uh, it' ; s a Hebrew name which means uh, " ; halo" ; or " ; aura." ; And um, she was born in Jerusalem at Hadassah Hospital in August of 19-- no. Yeah, 1997. CRANE: Great family. Uh, your father was a rabbi, how would you describe your parents? Both your mother and your father' ; s relationship to Judaism? SAXE: Oh. Well um, you know, obviously with my dad being the rabbi, it was a very strong connection. It was -- he was a -- it was an interesting -- he was an interesting person in -- in terms of his Jewish identity. And uh, as was my grandfather, my grandfather uh, pretty naturally, as one would expect, was Orthodox. He was a rabbi. And he uh, he was Orthodox, but he was really very modern in his outlook. He was very interested in psychology, he um, you know, on the one hand, while he was Orthodox in his personal observance, he was not -- uh, he was not overly um, oppressive in terms of how he related to me, who was clearly not Orthodox. And um, my dad, uh, actually got his rabbinical ordination, semikhah, from my grandfather' ; s yeshiva, which he had established in uh, New York City. And uh, he -- so he was Orthodox in upbringing, and Orthodox in his training, but he really was Conservative, just out of personal conviction. Um, in terms of his approach to Judaism. And he was -- he was very vibrant. He had a wonderful personality, and he related really well to people. So as a rabbi, he was very popular. And um, it made it easy for people, he was very flexible with people about um, what they did and they didn' ; t do. So it made it very easy for people to relate to him. And confide in him. Um, and he always, you know, one of the things I -- and he was a very, really an ardent Zionist. So, there were two sort of major streams in our home. One was obviously a commitment to -- to Jewish living, and he used to say that uh, you know, you have to look at the positives of being -- to enjoy being Jewish. It was not a burden. And the other thing was that he had a -- a terrific commitment to the survival of the Jewish people, and -- and to the establishment of the state of Israel, as did my grandparents on both sides, really. But my paternal grandparents, um, my grandfather left Palestine at the time of the First World War, and my grandmother came with the children, uh, they ended up in Poland for a few years, and then -- until the war was over, and then came after the First World War was over. And my paternal grandparents removed to -- returned to Jerusalem in the early 1950s, and lived there until they died. And my uh, dad, I talk about that because my dad really had a lot of the same feelings, and one of the earliest things I remember was his talking about the British white paper, and what it meant in terms of um, not allowing Jews to re -- go to Palestine, and what this meant in terms of the Jewish communities in Europe, and what was happening, uh, during -- during the rise of Nazism in World War II, and after World War II. And he was very strongly committed to that, and involved in working toward the establishment of the state. And my mother also um, you know, was a very -- I would say that even though my maternal grandparents' ; orientation was Orthodox, they were not that -- they were not strict. Um, as strict about it, although it was a kosher home, and my grandfather was the pillar of a small little Orthodox congregation in Madison, and uh, you know, certainly attended synagogue regularly, uh, every Shabbat. Um, and they -- they too had a very strong commitment to the idea of a -- a Jewish state, a Jewish homeland. And um, Henrietta Szold, who was the founder of Hadassah, had a sister who lived in Madison, whose husband -- her brother-in-law was uh, in the department of psychology at the University of Wisconsin. And my grandmother and my mother and um, all of the family, you know, really had a very strong commitment to the idea of the um, establishment of a -- of a homeland. CRANE: When you um, described your home as being Orthodox and kosher, and yet you say it wasn' ; t strict, what did -- what do you mean by that? SAXE: Oh. Well my grandparents. OK, so my -- in my paternal grandparents' ; home, it was pretty strict. You didn' ; t light lights on Shabbat and you, you know, didn' ; t light a fire. Uh, when they returned to Jerusalem, and I was there for a year during uh, after they had come back, and I would go to visit, their -- in -- in uh, Jerusalem at that time, that was the ' ; 50s, they had these sort of little stoves that you would um, I guess they were electric, I don' ; t remember. It doesn' ; t matter so much whether they' ; re electric or gas, but the idea was that it was a stove that could be kept at a very low flame, and that was how they kept the food hot. And my grandmother would make cholent every Friday and, you know, if I came for lunch, and later my brother said the same thing, you know, you would come, and that was your Shabbat lunch. And they did not -- uh, they didn' ; t light lights, they didn' ; t, you know, use the telephone, they certainly didn' ; t ride, um, and it -- it was just their way of life, and -- and that was the way it was when they lived in Brooklyn, when I was little, before they had returned to Israel. And we would visit, and um, with my maternal grandparents, uh, they would turn on lights. My grandmother did not cook or sew on Shabbat, or iron or do anything of that sort. Uh, and my grandfather basically um, I guess, by the time I really remembered and knew him well, he was retired. But uh, he could walk around the corner to his synagogue, so he didn' ; t need to ride. And um, I don' ; t remember if they would play the radio, but they were not quite as strict in their observance as my paternal grandparents were. CRANE: And in your home growing up, what was that like? What was Judaism like there? SAXE: Oh, so -- yeah. So, so ours was already, I don' ; t know if you would call it more Americanized or whatever. But uh, my mother wouldn' ; t sew, she would turn on the stove, but she wouldn' ; t cook the cooking. She always -- we kept a kosher home, she always uh, you know, basically cooked for Shabbat on Friday. I mean, yeah, there -- we went through a long time when she would make her own challahs and so on, but it was all done on Friday. She really didn' ; t cook on Saturday. You know, of course my dad would -- would be at uh, services on Shabbat morning anyway, as a matter of course, and Friday night services. Uh, being a Conservative congregation, uh, they at that time, they had um, services -- late Friday night services, around eight o' ; clock at night. Um, you know, now a lot of Conservative congregations not -- you know, not only Orthodox but Conservative, and even Reform congregations, will have an earlier Friday night Erev Shabbat service, so that everybody, you know, does the Kabbalat Shabbat, welcomes Shabbat, and goes home for dinner. Um, when I was growing up in Conservative congregations, they would, you know, because people worked until five, six o' ; clock, whatever, so they would come home, they would have their dinner, and then come to services, you know, later in the evening on Friday night. But um, my dad walked all his life, walked to the synagogue on -- until after the last few years when he really, um, he could -- he was still mobile but it was very difficult for him to walk, and my brother would take him. Uh, he would -- went to live with my brother in Jerusalem, after my mother died. And my brother would take him to the synagogue, uh, for Shabbat morning services. But um, up until that time, he walked every -- on Shabbat. CRANE: What did your parents teach you about Judaism, and how did this impact the choices you made in life? SAXE: Oh. CRANE: That' ; s a tough one, huh? SAXE: Well, you know, I -- I lived -- I lived in a rabbi' ; s home, so um, we -- we celebrated holidays, I, you know, from a young age, even before my dad had his congregation in Green Bay, but particularly after that, we moved back to Madison and he did not have a congregation in Madison. Um, you know, it was just a given that I would go -- go to Hebrew school, that I would go to Sunday school, they certainly believed that I, as a girl, should be educated Jewishly. Uh, I think my mother always regretted that she had very little formal Jewish education, it was more of what she learned from her parents at home, and, you know, my grandmother in the kitchen kind of thing. But -- uh, and in later years, I remember she would go to Hebrew classes that, you know, the congregation would run adult Hebrew classes. Um, but uh, and uh, except for one summer, I -- every -- from the time I was about nine years old, I was going to Jewish camps, and I -- for a couple of summers, I went to Roma in Wisconsin, right after it was established. And there, it was -- the idea was to -- Hebrew immersion, and so I really, I began to learn conversational Hebrew, along with the more conventional Biblical Hebrew that I learned in Hebrew school. And um, so it was just, it was -- it was just sort of a -- a given that that was what we were going to do. Um, once I was -- (laughter) also, I belonged, in Madison, we moved -- we moved to Green Bay when I was about three, three and a half. We came back to Madison when I was about nine. And my dad didn' ; t -- as I said, did not have a congregation. So for a variety of reasons, we belonged to all three congregations that existed in Madison at the time. At the Orthodox congregation, because of my grandparents, at the Conservative congregation because my dad wanted -- and my mother wanted me to have the Hebrew school, you know, Jewish education. And the Reform congregation, because uh, he was a very good friend of the Reform rabbi, who was uh, a German refugee, and uh, who -- and they did not have Hebrew school, but they had a confirmation class. So I ended up being both bat mitzvah and confirmed. Bat mitzvah at the Conservative congregation, and confirmed in the Reform congregation. So, I had a lot of Jewish. (laughter) CRANE: They kept you busy. Uh, where did you go to school? Um -- SAXE: You mean what -- CRANE: University. SAXE: Oh, university? I went to Brandeis. CRANE: And what did you study there? SAXE: I majored in sociology. And um, and then I got a master' ; s degree in social work at the University of Washington. I was already married, and we um, went out to the University of Washington for Stanley uh, to take a uh, post doc -- two year post doc program in periodontics, and I ended up in graduate school there. CRANE: What involvement did you have in the Jewish organizations while you were on campus? And why, if you did? SAXE: Oh, on campus? CRANE: Mm-hmm. SAXE: Um, I got very involved, and when I -- when I was in high school still, the -- and especially in -- well, in Madison, um, the -- the then-main Jewish Zionist student organization was something called the International Zionist Federation of America, IZFA. And uh, I knew about it and had contact with it there, because uh, we were also friendly with the Hillel rabbi, and once I had gone to Roma, he had a sort of a Hebrew conversational group that would meet Sunday evenings at his home, and so I used to go, even though I was still in high school. By the time I got to Brandeis, and then we moved to Florida and I had two years of high school in Florida. So there, I got very involved in Young Judaea, which is a Zionist youth movement. And uh, so by the time I got to Brandeis, IZFA was really dying. It had been -- it was pretty left -- left-wing, I don' ; t know that that was the only reason, I think it just sort of had run its course. And had been, you know, at its strongest when the state of Israel -- when the War of Independence was going on, the state of Israel was established, and I got to college, it was 1953, I mean it wasn' ; t so long after Israel had been established. And um, it -- so there was a kind -- so I was involved on campus, and then there was a conference that was held to -- in New York, to discuss what kind of a campus Zionist national, nationwide -- campus Zionist organization we wanted to have. You know, what we would develop. And out of that came something called the Student Zionist Organization. Now all of this had been -- also was supported by uh, through some of the adult Zionist organizations like the ZOA, Zionist Organization of America, Hadassah, and they had actually formed something called the American Zionist Youth Commission. So, we came under -- the Student Zionist Organization came under their umbrella, and we got support from them. So um, I was very involved in that for the first two years at Brandeis. And then I took a year off, went to Israel on a work study program that was run by the Jewish Agency for Israel, and actually went as a representative of SZO. And with -- and to do that program, you had to make a commitment to come back and work within your organization or movement for two years. So, that' ; s what I did. (laughter) And um, we did a -- we organized, you know, a number of -- there were a group of us in the greater Boston area. And so, it wasn' ; t even so much what we did on individual campuses as what we tried to do within a broader scope and, you know, Boston has tens of universities and colleges, and thousands and thousands of Jewish students, so we ran some educational programs, we uh, kind of partnered with the Boston University Hillel, and ran a number of um, holiday programs, Chanukah and Purim, and uh -- which is how I met Stanley. Um, we uh, did some of the same thing at Harvard Hillel. So, it was really kind of a broader, you know, broader base. CRANE: Hmm. Before we get too much into your life here in Kentucky, is there anything unique we should know about your family background or childhood years that you haven' ; t already mentioned? SAXE: Oh gosh. Um, yeah I would say, yeah, I think -- I think one of the -- the most critical things that happened to me, there were a couple of things. One is that we moved from Wisconsin to Florida, and that was um, traumatic as me for a teenager but ended up being very beneficial in other ways. Because I got involved in Young Judaea, and through Young Judaea, I ended up going to Israel for the first time in 1952 for the summer. And that was really a -- a huge, um, it had a huge impact on me. Uh, it was really um, you know, it was something my -- my dad had always said we' ; ll -- we' ; ll go and visit when things settle down. And um, and then I ended up being the first one to go back, uh, from our family. Um, and I was there for six weeks, and it just um, it just was a pivotal time in my life. It was uh, and so it was then that I found out about this program that I did four years later, when I was in college. So I would say that was -- that was really significant. And also as a result of that move, I ended up at Brandeis. If I -- I' ; m not sure where I would have gone if we stayed in Madison, but if we had moved somewhere besides Florida, which uh, had a very strong element in the community that supported Brandeis, which was very new at the time, I probably would have ended up at a different campus, and, you know, would have had a very different experience. CRANE: Hmm. OK. So what brought you to Kentucky? SAXE: All right. So, skipping over a few years. So um, I met Stanley when um, I came back from Israel, from my year in Israel. And we were married in 1958. And he, uh, he -- I graduated from college, and he graduated from dental school, and decided that he wanted to uh, go on and uh, specialize in periodontics. And um, through a series of connections, which he' ; ll tell you about, um, we ended up in Seattle at the University of Washington, uh, for his program. And uh, which took two years and then he was teaching for a couple of years, and we were just about ready to settle in Seattle, because we really loved it. Um, and had really built a wonderful community of friends. And he got a call from the uh, dental school here, they had not started -- they were just getting ready to open the dental school, and he was recruited to come here in the department of periodontics. Uh, so he was part of the opening faculty in 1962. CRANE: Wow. SAXE: Uh, it was a very small group, very dynamic, very exciting. Uh, mostly, you know, we were among the youngest but, you know, nobody was very old. And uh, and that' ; s what got us here. CRANE: From a Jewish perspective, what was the biggest adjustment, moving to Lexington? SAXE: Um, it wasn' ; t -- it -- it really wasn' ; t uh, much of an adjustment. Growing up in Madison, which was basically a smaller Jewish community, not as small as Lexington, but a small town, small city, small town Jewish community, um, you know, it -- it was -- that was not so different. I -- what the big change really was that we came here, and we were no longer graduate students, and really began to feel a response -- an adult, grownup kind of responsibility to -- to get involved and be a part of the Jewish community. I mean, in -- in Seattle, um, yeah I went to services at various places and I had Jewish friends and, you know, and we would celebrate the holidays and the last year we were there, we did join a congregation. But it was, you know, still kind of operating on a graduate student mentality. So, I didn' ; t feel as much of a responsibility to uh, even though I was working within the Jewish community, at the Jewish family service. But, you know, I didn' ; t have that sense that I had to be, you know, take on some of the responsibility, and that certainly was something that happened here. I -- it wasn' ; t a shock, it -- it really was -- was kind of nice, because everybody was very welcoming. Ohabei Zion in particular was -- is a very warm congregation, and the people we met at the beginning were very welcoming, very supportive. And -- and basically, just about everybody that we met in the Jewish community was -- was really lovely. CRANE: Describe Judaism in your home as an adult in Lexington, and as a parent. SAXE: Well -- CRANE: And maybe how it was different between -- from what it was like when you were growing up. SAXE: Yeah, we um, yeah uh, we definitely tried to observe the holidays, and joining a congregation meant that we were, you know, if not every week, we were certainly attending synagogue more regularly, and certainly for the high holy days, and special occasions, and so on. And at home, just um, I remember the first -- I think it was the first Rosh Hashanah that we were here even, having another young couple over, and, you know, the cook -- cooking -- cooking myself, that was a big -- that really, for me, was a big change, because up until then, we always had friends, you know, grownup friends who would invite us for the holidays. And um, this was, you know, beginning to really build our own -- our own home, uh, around the holidays. And uh, once we started to have kids, um, you know, it became much more -- it became not only what we were doing for ourselves, but, you know, wanting to create that kind of an atmosphere, a positive atmosphere, for our children. So, you know, certainly, you know, having holiday meals, and holiday celebrations, and you know, giving the kids a sense of being Jewish, and growing up -- for them, growing up in Lexington, where they were, you know, very often, the only Jewish child in their class, you know, it meant very often, you know, I was, you know, the mom who trudged off to school to explain what it means to be Jewish in the classroom as part of a, you know, whatever um, you know, outreach. And it was -- but what I found in Lexington, I' ; m, you know, chances are, I know that there were country clubs that were restricted, but what I found in terms of our day to day life, the people we met and in the schools where my kids went um, you know, was more interest in what it was to be Jewish, because they had never met Jewish people before. And I remember um, one of the kids, uh, had a student teacher who was the wife of a minister, and she was so excited. (laughter) She' ; d never met a Jewish person before. So that was, you know, a lot of what our experience was, when the kids were little. And uh, and then becoming committed to things like Hebrew school, and Sunday school, and um, I did some teaching at the Hebrew school and Sunday school at Ohabei Zion, and I was -- ended up being the principal for, I don' ; t know, about five, six, seven years, something like that. Um, so it um, you know, it -- again, became part of our lives, you know, day to day lives, because uh, I was -- I was involved with things like that. And -- and the sisterhood. Um, and so on. CRANE: What were your children' ; s involvement in the synagogue or the religious school, the community activities? Um. SAXE: Well, their Hebrew school, you know, was a -- well Sunday school, as soon as they were old enough, which started really at a kindergarten level, uh, all the way through bar and bat mitzvah, and we really didn' ; t have -- we did, uh, when I was Sunday school principal, we started a class, um, for junior high, at the time that was junior high, uh, for junior high kids. So beyond bar and bat mitzvah, not every child in the congregation who was bar and bat mitzvah ended up in that -- those classes, but quite a number did. And um, that was something that I really -- and, you know, got support from the parents, and -- and the uh, the congregation. The idea that their Jewish education shouldn' ; t end with being bar or bat mitzvahed, that there really was more that they could do. So, it was a Sunday school class, if we had a good teacher, it was a good experience, if we didn' ; t have such a good teacher, it was not such a great experience. Um, we were very fortunate for a couple of years, when I was principal, um, I think probably more when my middle daughter Natalie, um, was -- was going through that -- that age, time, um, we had a really terrific, uh, woman who was a professional educator. And she -- you know, she really did a great job. But the kids, I think it was important for the kids, because it was another way to connect to their Jewish peers. You know, they didn' ; t all go to the same school, they didn' ; t necessarily see each other on a daily basis. The other thing that was important for all three of my kids was Young Judaea, which we established. There was the -- the congregation went from having just -- just before we came to Lexington, having uh, given up its formal affiliation with the Orthodox movement. And began to move toward a more Conservative approach, uh, one of the big things was the men and women sitting together instead of separate. And um, they um, uh, it -- but they were not affiliated with the Conservative movement. So, we weren' ; t -- uh, we weren' ; t involved with the Conservative youth -- youth groups at all. And Young Judaea, through Hadassah, and through -- largely through the impetus of Marilyn Moosnick, we started to establish Young Judaea groups for the different age levels here. And that really made a difference, because the kids, it meant it was something that reached across congregational lines, um, to some extent it was also their -- Young Judaea has camps, summer camps, and the kids were going to camp, so they were meeting not only um, having some of their Lexington friends go, but meeting kids from -- particularly from all over the Midwest. Uh, and some of those friendships still exist today. You know, 30, 40 years later, so um, so that was a part of it. Um, so -- and then, you know, because I was um, when I was Sisterhood president, really the kids were too small, it didn' ; t matter that much. But when I was Sunday school principal, they were all still in Sunday school, so that, you know, so they knew there was this close connection. And also, our oldest daughter Harriet actually worked for a couple of years while she was in high school as Rabbi Schwab' ; s assistant. He had already become blind, and needed somebody, you know, an assistant in the classroom when he taught Hebrew school. And she -- she was his assistant for several years. CRANE: I know that you were actively involved in the formation of the Havurah. Uh, can you first describe what the Havurah is, and tell about the Jewish community' ; s climate that was key to its formation? SAXE: Um, there was, in the ' ; 60s and ' ; 70s, the Havurah movement began. And it really, interestingly, it really began at Brandeis, way after I had left. But the original Havurah uh, was a group of students at Brandeis who wanted uh, something, there was a lot of um, feeling within the -- certainly the younger adult community, student community, younger adult community, that they wanted something that was not as structured as most congregations were, and are in many cases, that it was too stratified, it was too -- too rigid and, you know, it didn' ; t matter what the stream of Judaism but that, you know, that the -- the um, governmental social structure was very stratified, very kind of rigid. And so, a group of students got together, and they were knowledgeable about uh, Jewish things, and uh, they wanted something that would be egalitarian, and uh, really to find new ways to live their Judaism. And um, so there was -- a group began, um, in the Boston area. A lot of -- really out of Brandeis. And they had a house in Somerville, Massachusetts, um, where they -- they lived and they celebrated, and they actually wrote um, one of the -- one of the couples was -- a collaboration of several others, wrote a couple of guidebooks, um, that -- talking about ways to celebrate -- to observe Jewish -- Judaism and celebrate, you know, going back to recipes for making challah, but then how do you make um, a whole wheat challah? Because that' ; s healthier. Um, but, you know, ways to celebrate Sukkot, ways -- how, different -- a different approach to Pasoch so that when you had a Seder, you didn' ; t necessarily read from the Maxwell House Haggadah but there were, you know, they wrote their own Haggadahs and related it to current events and current times. Reconstructionist Judaism had done some of this, but this, you know, this was really the idea that you' ; re doing it for yourself and your peers and you' ; re doing it together. So, this was really a growing movement. In the meantime, here in Lexington, um, the Ohabei Zion was um, you know, was still very -- very much, even though they would call them -- might have called themselves conservative, as opposed to Orthodox, it certainly wasn' ; t Orthodox. But yeah, I mean for starts, because you had the mixed seating and, you know, there were other things. But, you know, there was still -- women were not counted in the minyan, girls could be bat mitzvahed, but only on Friday night. Um, that Rabbi Schwab really uh, I remember talking to him about teaching my daughter Harriet the Torah, and he was absolutely horrified at the thought. And I -- he said, " ; Why would you want to do that?" ; And I said, you know, we had a pretty good working relationship, he and I, and -- because I -- that' ; s when I was the principal. And he -- and he said, " ; Why would you want to do that?" ; And I said, " ; Well, I think it just would make it more meaningful for her if she, you know, was able to, you know, follow and kind of had that extra knowledge." ; " ; Well the next thing you know, she' ; s going to want to read Torah." ; And, you know, as far as he was concerned, that was just, you know, one of the -- the boundaries that he could not see being crossed. Um, when a number of people -- really, it was our -- sort of our peer group, who at the time were -- we were what, in our late thirties, into our forties, um, and our kids were -- were teenagers, uh, or soon to be teenagers, and we started, you know, talking about what we could do, for example, for girls to make it more meaningful for them, for -- to maybe make, you know, make the services more open, and uh, allow girls to -- to do more, and not necessarily cut them off as soon as they were bat mitzvahed. That was the other thing, the cutoff line was bat mitzvah, and then that was it. They got up on the bima to lead the Friday night services, and that was the end. Never again. And um, and other things, just to uh, you know, kind of broaden out, and uh, because there was that -- kind of that mood going through the American Jewish community. And in a lot of places and in a lot of ways, um, in the Reform movement, it was moving towards more traditional observances, you know, from what had been very -- in their definition, you know, very rigidly uh, you know, what they considered modern. And beginning to open themselves up to some of the customs and observances that they had kind of pushed aside. So there was -- there was just a whole new feeling, and um, and a group of us got together and we were just not happy with what was -- what was happening, and the kind of, not only the response from the rabbi, but then the response from the leadership of -- of the synagogue. There was a lot of bitterness at -- at that point towards us, because they felt that we were somehow stepping over our bounds, and there was very much a, sort of a climate that if the rabbi said this was the way it should be, that' ; s the way it had to be. And so, we formed what we called a Havurah, with the idea that we would follow Conservative practice, but that we -- and by that time, the Conservative movement was counting women that we would be egalitarian, that we would be peer-led, that we would basically create our own -- our own way of expressing our -- our Jewishness. And um, so when we started, for example, Stanley put -- my husband put together a um -- and -- and my dad was very supportive of this, and he really was very helpful. Um, he sat down, Stanley had been uh, chairman of the religious committee at -- at Ohabei Zion so he, you know, was pretty familiar with the ritual and stuff. But he sat down with my dad and over a period of a number of days, in those early days, just my dad went through all the high holy day services, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, uh, you know, what you could do that would be, you know, that -- that was basic and important to keep in, what you could perhaps uh, alter a little bit, or change a little bit. The conservative movement had put out a um, uh, a machzor, the prayer book for the high holy days, for young people. For kids. And there were wonderful readings in it, and wonderful adaptations of the service. So we took stuff from there, we took -- used, you know, the traditional machzor, and put together Rosh Hashanah services and had Rosh Hashanah services, had Yom Kippur services, had our own break the fast, and it was um, and everybody -- everybody who came and was a part of it, and there were -- I don' ; t remember how many there were to start, maybe 15, maybe 20 couples at the most, and not everybody was from the synagogue. There were people from the temple, who were affiliated with the temple, and there were quite a number of families, of young couples, who were here in Lexington, and were not interested in joining a congregation. They really came out of this um, you know, wave of -- of uh, anti-establishment feeling. And uh, a lot of them have since moved out of town, and any number of them are leaving lights in -- in the congregations now, they became leadership in the congregations, but this really brought them in. We also were very open to uh, people in mixed marriages, and we were also, at one point, we uh, were probably the first uh, congregation -- I mean, if -- if you want to characterize us as a congregation in the strictest sense of the word, what uh, to have a gay couple as membership. And they no longer live here, but they still talk about, when we have seen them and when people, you know, mutual um, friends have come back and forth or whatever, you know, we -- we still get very positive uh, feedback from them. It meant a lot, and they are very involved Jewishly, still, in their own community. CRANE: What year was this? When? SAXE: That this all happened? CRANE: Mm-hmm. SAXE: Let' ; s see, the Havurah began in 19-- we had our 30-year anniversary what, about 7, 8 years ago? So in about 19-- in the 1970s, uh, I' ; d have to go back. Um, yeah, because let' ; s see, ' ; 63, ' ; 76, ' ; 75. Right, oh and girls in the -- at Ohabei Zion had to be bat mitzvahed at age 12, not 13. So, let' ; s see. When Harriet was bat mitzvahed, it was ' ; 75, and Natalie was ' ; 77. So it was right around ' ; 77, ' ; 78 that we started. And um, there -- for a time, we had um, there were a lot of families that came in that had little kids, and sort of the original core, our kids were all bar and bat mitzvah and beyond. So it wasn' ; t so crucial for them, but um, there were quite a number of couples who joined, who had little children. And for a while, we ran our own preschool program. You know, I mean not a -- every day, but like a preschool Sunday school. And that was also with volunteers, and then it just got to the point where, you know, people ran out of steam and -- and resources, and the knowledge to really -- and motivation to go further. And that was a time when um, a lot of those younger couples who had not previously joined a congregation became affiliated with a congregation so their kids could go to religious school. It -- um, it was a significant time for them. And for their decision, some of them stayed with the Havurah, some of them left eventually. CRANE: So there was like, dual membership of -- SAXE: Yeah, yeah. We never -- some of our early Ohabei Zion people resigned from the synagogue, but a bunch of us stayed affiliated. So it was not all of one or the other. There was a lot of anger at Ohabei Zion that we had done this, um, and uh, but very interesting, because it -- soon after that, Rabbi Schwab became too ill -- well, he was getting increasingly debilitated, and the congregation realized that they needed to make preparations for when he could no longer officiate. And started a rabbinical search, and I was actually on the search committee that chose Ori Smith. And I interviewed him down in Florida before they brought him up here to be interviewed here in Lexington. And it was -- the decision was that -- and by then, also interestingly, there were already the next wave of the sort of the next generation of families came along, and they had the same concerns that we did, it wasn' ; t that we were so out of line, it was just that we happened to be the first. But, when the next group of young families came along and they were agitating for the same kind of thing, I think everybody realized that, you know, hey maybe, you know, we need to do something as a community, as a congregation. So, when the -- when we started the rabbinical search, it was with the understanding that whoever came in would be willing to have an egalitarian congregation, and that there would be this movement, this change, within the congregation. And I remembered interviewing Rabbi Smith in Florida, and talking about how, you know, what the expectations were. They wanted somebody who was traditional in the way he lead the service, but they wanted somebody who would be open to these changes. And um, and I must say that he was -- Ori Smith was very sensitive to that, and he came with a plan for how he wanted to transition, so that he would not offend Rabbi Schwab. He was very -- very sensitive to the fact that Rabbi Schwab had been the rabbi, and had these, you know, rules that he lived by, these standards that he lived by. Sadly, Rabbi Schwab died just about the time that Ori came. I, you know, it was just one of those things that happened. But, Ori really initiated, introduced, you know, training for the women, and counting the women in the minyan, and using women as part of the service. And I can still remember some of those early services at the old building, uh, on Maxwell Street, you know, when the women were beginning to do that, and it was -- it was a huge, huge step forward. And very emotional, I think, for a lot of women. And I found that true around the country. Um, when I uh, in the ' ; 80s, when I was the director for the Federation here in Lexington, and I would go to meetings for small community directors and things like that, you know, there were other communities, you know, going through similar -- not identical, but very similar kinds of experiences, and for women it was a very groundbreaking, very emotional time to suddenly find your status within Judaism changing. CRANE: Judy, you really are a wealth of information. SAXE: I' ; m sorry, what? CRANE: I said, you really are a wealth of information. (laughter) Um, how has the Havurah changed over time in Lexington? Is it still active? SAXE: Yeah. CRANE: OK. SAXE: The Havurah is still active, uh, we basically are aging in place. Um, over the years we had a lot of members who moved away. Uh, apart from people who, you know, still live in Lexington who were members and are no longer members. Um, at our peak we were probably about 40, 40 -- between 40 and 45 family units. Right now, we hover around -- around 30, between 30 and 35, probably low thirties. And that includes a lot of singles, um, we don' ; t really have anybody now who has young children. Most of us are grandparents. Um, I' ; m just trying to think, you know, of everybody who' ; s a member. Uh, we still, you know, are -- have adult children, certainly. Um, and we keep talking about what' ; s going to happen, you know, because we -- and we' ; ll get occasional, somebody will come into town, move into town, and, you know, who wants -- who' ; s attracted by the kind of uh, structure we have which is, you know, pretty loose, but it' ; s there. I mean we have officers, we try to meet at least once a month, we uh, we' ; ve had to make adaptations as we' ; ve shrunk. Uh, you know, for instance, on the high holidays, we do two days of Rosh Hashanah services, and generally a portion of our members go to their respective congregation. You know, congregational buildings on the first day, come the second day, or vice versa. So, we' ; re never sure if we' ; re going to have a minyan, although so far, we have. But, the people who -- those of us who are part of it, and not all of them are, you know, from the original group, quite a number have passed away. Even so, there' ; s -- there' ; s a lot of loyalty. And it' ; s very special, because it' ; s so small. And interestingly, a lot of big congregations, particularly um, in the Reform and Conservative movements, uh, have started Havurah within -- within the congregation, so that there will be a group that -- of young families, for example, that, you know, have kids about the same age, and they' ; ll meet for Shabbat dinner instead of going to the synagogue, or they' ; ll have extra celebrations or whatever. Um, but that' ; s had mixed success. So, we um, we still -- we still meet. We have -- once a year, we have an education retreat that is uh, probably why uh, you know, a certain portion of people stay as members, because even through much heartrending, soul searching, we' ; ve just decided that it should be for members only. We did agree that people could invite at least one or two guests uh, last year, and, you know, really ended up that it was still our same core. And we bring in -- we pay minimal dues, because we don' ; t have a building, we don' ; t have a rabbi. And um, so we -- the money that we accumulate, we use, you know, for something like edu-- an educational program. And we usually have some pretty -- pretty neat stuff. CRANE: Hmm. Um, to the best of your ability, how did your children, not that we know what our children' ; s thoughts and feelings are all the time, but how did your children feel about their Jewishness in Lexington? SAXE: Um, hmm. CRANE: Did they maybe describe any experiences with anti-Semitism in Lexington? Um, like what was the non-Jewish community' ; s reaction to them being Jewish? SAXE: The girls really didn' ; t, I don' ; t think much. Neil had um, was uh, was -- was a soccer player, and he went out for soccer at his high school, and ran into a coach -- well, they -- they prayed before every game. And he wouldn' ; t pray. (laughter) And the coach got very angry, and supposedly said something, alluded to his being Jewish. Uh, Stanley went over, had a talk with the coach, who said, " ; No, no, no, you know, just" ; -- but he felt that -- that, you know, Neil wasn' ; t showing respect, and whatever, whatever. And he dropped out of soccer. Um, at -- at the high school. There also, um, I think probably Natalie and Neil both, in terms of their high school experience especially, you know, the whole -- well, I -- wait, I take it back. When Natalie was six years old, and in first grade, um, you know, there' ; s a lot of Christmas that goes on in the schools. You know, and supposedly it' ; s not religious, it' ; s all secular stuff. But, uh, there' ; s a lot of holiday stuff that goes on. And um, she uh, clearly felt it, I -- I wasn' ; t even as aware of it, but her teacher told me that uh, she -- she was doing some assignment at her desk, and -- and the teacher walked over, and it was the first African-American teacher at Glendover School, and really a terrific gal. And clearly very sensitive to minority issues, and she said there was Natalie, saying something like um, happy, happy, I don' ; t know if it was Chanukah or whatever, and yucky, yucky Christmas. So, you know, clearly there was -- there was a consciousness about it. And when Neil was in second grade, his teacher had been -- was really known in the school as somebody who went all out with Christmas decorations, and put up a lot of religious pictures, you know, the -- the Virgin Mary, and all that kind of stuff. So, Merle Weckstein and I went over to talk to um, the teacher. Well we talked to the principal, and we talked to the teacher, and uh, she said well, you know, this is uh, something about uh, this is fine art that I' ; m putting up. That was it. " ; This is fine art." ; You know, it was some -- like a Rembrandt or a Reubens or something, of some saint. And we said, " ; Well then why couldn' ; t you put it up in, you know, show, do it a -- a section on fine art in March?" ; And she said, " ; Oh but then it wouldn' ; t be the right time of year." ; (laughter) So, you know, there -- there was stuff like that. But the -- but they really, I think, were pretty firmly -- had a pretty firm sense of themselves as Jews. Because I also um, uh, you know, they -- there were discussions, certainly when they were in high school, there were some discussions about holiday observance, and I know that -- that the kids spoke up in class. I mean, they were not afraid to uh, or reluctant, you know, to -- to talk about how they felt and what they thought was right. So, I think they all came through it with a pretty strong -- strong sense of identity. CRANE: What supports or challenges were there in raising your children Jewish in Lexington? SAXE: Wait, say that again? CRANE: What supports and challenges were there in raising your children Jewish in Lexington? SAXE: Oh, support and challenge? CRANE: Yeah. SAXE: Well, I think the uh, the Jewish community in general, and I think Ohabei Zion in particular, had -- was a -- is a -- it was and is a very close community. Um, now that our kids are out of -- out of Lexington, and we' ; re older, and we' ; re not around as much, you know, we' ; re not as involved, but it was very much a part of our lives. And there was a lot of support, and the other kids, whether they -- whether they loved each other, you know, there weren' ; t very many of any age group, so whether they loved each other so much or not, it didn' ; t matter. But there was still that -- there was a bond. And the parents, you know, there was a lot of support, uh, at the parent level. And just at the congregational level. Um, so that was -- that was very good. The other thing was really -- there were a couple of other things. One was that my parents were just uh, you know, that it was because um, they were so positive -- Jewishly identified in a very positive way, that was really part of my kids' ; , you know, environment, and their -- their life experience. Um, I think that the challenges were, which -- which I had growing up too, in -- in Wisconsin, because it was a, you know, small Jewish community in a, you know, very much a very small minority. Um, you know, almost everybody you know is not Jewish. And you' ; re sort of the novelty if you' ; re Jewish. And um, so, you know, what happens when they -- when they get to dating age, when they uh, when there are uh, activities that happen on Shabbat? Or even more significant, during the major Jewish holidays? Um, you know, always going through the issue of uh, teachers giving tests on Rosh Hashanah, you know, that kind of thing. Um, or other holidays when some of the more observant kids were staying home. Um, so that' ; s always a challenge. And um, I think -- you know, I really, I -- I -- I' ; ll have to ask my kids sometime how they felt about it in retrospect. Um, I think Neil, the youngest, was the most of -- of the three, um, was the most assertive about his being Jewish, and the most sensitive to uh, things that were going on in school, or in the broader community that were um, you know, sort of uh, you know, expressing the Christian spirit as opposed to a -- a nonsectarian holiday kind of a -- a feeling. But, you know, they all came through it. (laughter) Fortunately, I mean, or not everybody does, but -- but our kids, our kids really, really did, in -- in the sense that I think they still have that -- that sense of identity. CRANE: How does your relationship to Jewish identity, uh, compare to that of your children' ; s now? SAXE: Oh, I -- I' ; m probably more -- more um, more active in -- in observances than any of them are. And I -- I don' ; t think of myself as a particularly um, observant person in the sense of, you know, sitting down to Shabbat dinner every Friday night or, you know, whatever. But I' ; m prob-- probably more involved than they are, although um, my oldest granddaughter, interesting, um, my daughter-in-law ended up, they' ; re -- they live in a very small community up in northwestern Washington. And um, my daughter-in-law, who grew up in -- was born in the States, but grew up in Israel, has ended up teaching Hebrew at the Hebrew school there. And my granddaughter, for her last two years of high school, was actually a teaching assistant in the Hebrew school, and in the Sunday school there. So um, uh, they' ; re -- they sort of got pulled into it willy-nilly. (laughter) CRANE: It works. I know that you' ; ve been very involved with Hadassah. Both at the local and the national level. Um, if you could briefly explain what Hadassah is, and tell me about your involvement with Hadassah, both locally and nationally, um, when you got involved and why. And you certainly have a strong Zionist background, from your family. Um, but if you could just speak a little bit about that. SAXE: Uh, OK. So, when I was a kid, I was involved in Young Judaea, which um, very peripherally, I knew had some support from Hadassah. When I was in college I, you know, spoke about my college involvement, and I knew that there was some support. I knew that my -- my mother and my -- and her mother were -- and other Jewish women in Madison, you know, were -- were active in Hadassah, and I remember, you know, going, they would have uh, these mother child luncheons, you know, things like that. So I remember that, but by the time I got into high school, and even college, it was like that was, you know, something my mother did that my grandmother did when she was alive, and, you know, wasn' ; t for me. And it wasn' ; t until we came to Lexington, um, and that was part of what was so nice about the Lexington Jewish community. Every -- every Jewish women' ; s organization, the two sisterhoods from the Temple Adath Israel and Ohabei Zion, and Hadassah, and at that time, the um, the -- oh, oh, um, I' ; m all of a sudden blocking. Um, but another women' ; s organization that' ; s not here. But every um, I' ; ll remember it in -- in a minute. But anyway, uh, they would -- everybody that they could identify as newcomers, all the women, each of the organizations would have a luncheon in August or September, around the time of the -- the holidays, working around the holidays. And each organization had uh, one week of the month, you know, uh, Hadassah was, I remember the -- the programs were the first week of -- the first Wednesday of the month, the Synagogue Sisterhood was, I think, the second Tuesday of the month. You know, it was that kind of thing. And, but all the young -- the new women that came in were invited to an opening luncheon by each of the organizations, and um, as -- as guests. And each -- each one had a, you know, would have some kind of a special program. But the idea was to welcome them, to introduce them to the Jewish community, and to get to know them. I -- you know, it just was this wonderful, warm kind of reception. So, um, it was a natural for me to gravitate toward uh, toward Hadassah, because of its strong Israel orientation and, you know, the Sisterhood at Ohabei Zion because we joined Ohabei Zion. So, when I be-- so, and then my mother, who I think probably thought that we had really gone out into the -- the boonies, and, you know, what -- whatever was going to happen to our Jewish lives, uh, enrolled me as a life member in Hadassah. And I didn' ; t think much of it as -- at the time, but uh, I got involved, there -- Marilyn Moosnick was president of the chapter at the time, and she was, you know, very dynamic, very attractive, very appealing. But there was a whole group of women who uh, were -- were really just, you know, also equally involved and committed. I mean, everybody from Hannah Levi, who was one of the founders back in the late ' ; 30s, to people like Betty Rosenberg and Frankie Yeaties and um, I' ; m trying to think of some of the others. Um, you know, just who I considered older women. (laughter) But they were very, very welcoming, very accepting, and um so, you know, if you showed any interest, they were very quick to mentor you. So, that was on a local level that it was very easy for me to get involved in Hadassah. And on a more universal level, the idea that we supported um, the -- the medical center in -- in Israel, that we supported Youth Aliyah which had always been very much present in my life. My dad really was strongly committed to Youth Aliyah, and used to do a lot of speaking and fundraising for them. And that was basically a Hadassah project. And uh, just -- just the whole concept of what Hadassah stood for. Um, and then as I got more involved and started to be on the local chapter, and be -- and began to get involved in the region, which was at the time, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia. Uh, and meet, you know, meet other women, it just, it was just a wonderful other community of women and through -- especially in the ' ; 70s, as the women' ; s movement began to emerge and, you know, become very vocal and very prominent, Hadassah really went along with it. So, a lot of my um, evolution of -- in terms of -- of feminism. You know, my own personal feminism really came through Hadassah. Um, we had a great women' ; s discussion group here for many years, we had some really interesting seminars on a regional level, and then um, I went to my first national convention in 19-- I think it must have been 1971. And that was not only because it was a very exciting, you know, really to see thousands of women, and all working for the same thing, but, you know, uh, just by chance, met people who had connections to my family. I mean, my parents and so on, and so, it was a whole construct, and in 1970, in 1955, ' ; 56, when I was there for -- in Israel for the year studying, um, the original Hadassah Hospital was lost, was -- Israel lost access to the original Hadassah Hospital because the uh, Jordanians, uh, conquered the old city of Jerusalem, and the hospital was in the eastern part uh, beyond -- east of the -- the walls of the old city. And we did not have access to it. And Hadassah had to -- used just a whole smattering of buildings in the city in the west part of Jerusalem, uh, for clinics, until they could build a new medical center. In 1955, when I was there, uh, we went on a hike one day, a group of us, and the hike -- the leader said, took us to a spot outside of the city, and he said this is where there' ; s going to be, they' ; re building a new Hadassah Hospital. I knew about Hadassah, I knew about the medical work, and how it was all fractured and, you know, in different places. And he said, this is going to be the new hospital. And then in 1970, we came on -- my husband took a sabbatical, and we went to Israel, and he was teaching at the dental school at Hadassah. And at that time, it was the only dental school in the country, and lo and behold, there was -- here was this whole medical center, and this -- these -- in the hills, where I had been that used to be bare. I mean literally were bare, and here was this whole medical center. And it just was, you know, just was such an amazing emotional experience for me, and uh, you know, we got to meet people who were on the staff, and -- and it just -- just was a very unique thing. So, when I came back two years later, I became the chapter president, and that uh, meant that I was part of the region board, and then um, I became very active in the region, and ultimately became the region president, which made me a member of the national board. And that was in 1987. And uh, and I' ; ve been on the national board ever since, and it' ; s -- it just um, you know, Israel -- Israel is very important to me. And I can -- and I, you know, clearly remember uh, the stories that came out of the Holocaust, and I very clearly remember when Israel became -- when the vote was help in the United Nations for partition, and sitting with my grandmother, and listening on the radio to the results of the vote. And I remember when the state was declared, and how important that was for us. So, each of these things uh, is very much a part of my -- the fiber of my being. And uh, Israel has remained that way for me, and I -- you know, now my brother lives there. And uh, his kids were born there. We have other uh, you know, some other family, we have a lot of friends. Uh, and uh, and I still -- you know, I still feel that the work that Hadassah does, that that um, not only that it benefits Israel, but that it really offers an opportunity for the Jewish community here to have a very real and practical bond with the state of Israel that is not just, you know, something that' ; s -- that' ; s in theory, but there' ; s very -- their effects on the ground. CRANE: Judy, it' ; s my understanding that not just yourself, but um, others, that there' ; s a -- a disproportionate amount of women involved in Hadassah at the national level from this Lexington chapter. SAXE: (laughter). CRANE: And I' ; m -- I' ; m just curious why you think that has happened, um, here? Why does Lexington produce such phenomenal Hadassah leaders? SAXE: (laughter) Right, we go around -- CRANE: And maybe if you could even mention some of them, besides um -- SAXE: Oh, well yeah. Um, I think that -- that I think Marilyn Moosnick had a great deal to do with -- with what happened. But she wasn' ; t alone. I mean there were -- there were people like -- CRANE: Right. SAXE: -- Hannah Levi, there were people like -- I really need a -- a -- a directory to try and remember, but um, uh, the -- um, Esther Moskowitz, and Becky Golden, and you know, there just were -- yeah, you know, the old timers. Uh, and Frankie Yeaties, and Betty Rosenberg, and uh, I' ; m -- you know, just off the top of my head, I' ; m trying to think. Um, uh, who -- who worked, you know, some of them were presidents, some just worked, you know, as volunteers, um, you know, and I' ; m talking about a lot of these people who are no longer here, who have, you know, died, many years ago. But they -- there was that strong feeling of um, of purpose. And it kind of -- oh, Ellen Henson. You know, and Anita Baker, I mean it -- it really cut across all parts of the Jewish community. And whatever, you know, the -- the -- the separation between the Reform congregation and Ohabei Zion, whatever that was, Hadassah really bridged that. And um, so that was uh, so there was a strong core of support. So, Marilyn was a unique -- Harriet Cooper, you know, was somebody who, you know, was very involved. Um, but Marilyn was, you know, was a -- was a significant personality. I mean, her -- her whole -- the, you know, charisma that she had. But she really came out of a very supportive -- these women that I' ; m talking about, the older women, I mean they nurtured her, and supported her, it wasn' ; t that she sprang out of nothing. There was a -- there was really a strong base of support, so that, you know, if she came up with an idea to do something, I mean, people came along and there were -- they would do other things, and -- and, you know, or build on what she had done. So, um, she wasn' ; t fighting, you know, fighting against things, she really -- there was a very positive um, uh, climate. So, OK. So she became a region president. And that put her on the national board. And that was in 1970-- no, 1969. And then, we went off on sabbatical in 1970, Gail Cohen became president in 19-- of the chapter in 1970. And she also uh, you know, was -- was -- is particularly bright and capable, and she kind of got -- and when she became active on the regional level, she also became identified as somebody, you know, with terrific leadership qualities, and who could uh, really um, move into a -- a national position. So she was region president from ' ; 81 to ' ; 84. And that put her on the national board, and she' ; s been on the national board ever since. And Marilyn, you know, was already on the national board and, you know, so on. And then, I became president in 1987. And so then there were three people from the -- on the national board from Lexington, Kentucky. Which really was unusual, as far as the national board went. Because the way they had representation at that time, the system of representation was such that if you lived outside of the New York metropolitan area, it was a relatively small number of women who could be on the national board at any one time. I -- I don' ; t know, it -- it was um, you know, what it was, I guess we could have easily have not been reelected, because we had to go through election processes, I suppose we just as easily could have not been reelected. But I think we supported each other, I think that we got very strong support from our colleagues from our region. Um, it -- it just was a happenstance. Um, there' ; s a funny story when -- Alex Cohen and Ross Moosnick are the same age, and they were in Israel on Young Judaea, the year -- of course, the same year. And what you -- what you did at the time, you spent a certain amount of time in Jerusalem having conventional -- pretty much a conventional academic track, and then there were -- there was a period of time, broken up into several segments, where you would live on a kibbutz, or live on a moshav or, you know, do something that related to some special interest you had. And it just happened by chance that first, I forget whether it was Alex who came first or Ross, but they both ended up with the same family at different times on a moshav. And the -- the moshav father was just amazed that there were -- here were two kids from a little, you know, town in -- in Kentucky. From the United States that, you know, he' ; d barely heard from. He said, it must be a hotbed of Zionism. (laughter) And so that became -- that sort of became our -- our mantra, you know, we' ; re a hotbed of Zionism. And more recently, Lynn Ferness lives in Versailles, but, you know, it' ; s really part of the Lexington chapter of Hadassah. So uh, you know, there are still three of us on the national board. Uh, and it -- and it is kind of unusual. But -- CRANE: It is. SAXE: -- I think, I think we just, we' ; ve been very fortunate here, and what was a very positive supportive atmosphere. When we came in the -- in the ' ; 60s, has continued and I -- I really believe we are a very um, really a very special, it' ; s a very special community, and it' ; s a very special -- so as a result, Hadassah has really benefited from that. I mean, we' ; ve got -- again, it' ; s women from across the whole community, um, we are by and large very supportive of each other. Um, whereas you get, in some communities, you know, people are just more interested in tearing each other down than building each other up. And this has been something that I -- I think has -- is at the core of this -- of this community. CRANE: Judy, I know that um, you know, you come from a really significant Israeli background, you' ; re -- you know, your family was born in -- you have family members that were born in Palestine, you' ; ve been actively involved in the Jewish community, significantly Hadassah, um, how has all this impacted your own personal views about Israel now, its politics? SAXE: Good question. (laughter) Oh, I' ; ll tell you what I tell a lot of my non-Jewish friends when they ask me. So, I believe in the state of Israel, and I believe that -- I believe -- just to the very fiber of my being, that it -- it is a homeland for the Jews. Whether -- whether I' ; m living there or not. And I -- you know, and I really believe that we have a right to be there. We -- we have a historic right. Do I always agree with the government of the state of Israel? No. Do I always agree with the government of the United States of America? No. Does that mean that I have given up my citizenship in the United States of America if there' ; s a president or a political movement that' ; s going on that -- that is uh, abhorrent to me? I do not. I believe very firmly that, you know, in -- in this -- that this is a democratic country, that we are a heterogeneous country, that despite some of the awful, hateful things that happen. That there is an underlying foundation that, you know, that -- that will -- will survive. And I really feel the same way about Israel. It really, it' ; s -- it' ; s not a -- it' ; s not a democracy with the same kind of political structure that is here in the United States. But is it a democracy in the sense that there are citizens -- every citizen has rights? Yes. Is it a country where people can speak their minds? Very definitely. (laughter) Um, I think that sometimes, uh, because of that, um, you know, Israel gets -- gets a bad rep because you get extremist views there, just like you get extremist views here. Um, I think that um, both Jews and non-Jews are very quick to react -- to react to things that come out of Israel. Um, you know, it' ; s sort of like a little tender spot that you have, like you have a little sort on your -- on your arm and you keep rubbing at it because it itches, or hurts or whatever. You know, and it' ; s -- it' ; s -- it' ; s kind of there. But, um, it' ; s -- it' ; s a wonderful country. And they' ; ve taken in, I -- you know, if you look at the history of -- of Israel, and so many people who are quick to criticize it today have no sense of what the history of Israel is. I mean, listen there are a lot of Americans who have no sense of what the real history of the United States is, either. So, they, you know, they don' ; t understand what that -- that there was uh, there was a community there before the state of Israel was declared, that there was, you know, a growing Jewish presence before Hitler, the rise of Hitler. That it wasn' ; t -- yeah, did -- did the Holocaust have an impact on the ability uh, of the uh, the community there, the -- the Jews in Israel, to establish a state with support from the Western world? Yes, there -- there was that, it certainly had an impact, the reality, the Holocaust was just too horrendous for anybody to wrap their minds around. But, you know, then -- then Israel took in thousands of DPs. Israel took in thousands of refugees from Middle Eastern countries where the, the governments were -- were hostile to Israel and had attacked Israel, and they were either actively expelling the Jews, or um, doing -- you know, taking action against them. That meant that they -- they had to leave. Um, Israel has taken in Russians, Israel has taken in Ethiopians. They' ; re still taking in Ethiopians, they' ; re still taking in Russians. They' ; re taking in the French now because there is a lot of concern about anti-Semitism in France. They' ; ve taken in thousands from South -- from the South American countries because there have been various waves of anti-Semitism in South America. You know, so it' ; s a polyglot country, and depending on who' ; s coming in when, you know, depends for example, the signs you see on the stores, they' ; ll be in Hebrew and Arabic, when the Russians were coming, there was a lot of Russian, and a lot of signs in Russian. You still see a lot of that. Uh, you know, the Russians have really assimilated in terms of language. So on the -- they still are, you know, fairly significant um, national or ethnic uh, group, you know, and -- and have their own political uh, parties and issues. Um, similar things with the Ethiopian community. But, um, you know, Israel -- Israel, what, this is -- Israel is um, ' ; 52, so it' ; s 67 years old. I mean, we' ; re not talking about a country that' ; s been around for thousands of years. And it' ; s still evolving. Um, I -- I -- I' ; m not happy with the current government but, you know, I' ; m not a citizen. If I were a citizen, would I have voted for Netanyahu? Absolutely not. And I think that um, I think that -- that, you know, some of the things that have happened that are, you know, in terms of public relations for Israel' ; s image, you know, that are negative, I think are, you know, you can lay at his feet. But, he also, you know, let' ; s be realistic, he is -- among the right of center, he' ; s probably among the more moderate. There are people who are way more right-wing. But, you know, there are also people in the center and to the left of center. And, you know, who are working to balance that. And uh, uh, you know, will there be changes? I think there will. Is it going to happen in my lifetime? Who knows. But when I was a kid, I never thought there would be a state of Israel, either. So. CRANE: And there is. SAXE: And there is. (laughter) CRANE: Besides your involvement in Hadassah, I know that you' ; ve been very active with the Jew-- Jewish Federation. Without going into great detail, because I know you' ; ve done that in previous interviews, um, can you just share a little bit about what your role with the Federation has been over the years? Um, and -- and how it has changed over the years? SAXE: Oh. Well, let' ; s see. It started with the -- with Camp Shalom. Our famous uh, you know, the mother -- the mothers from the two Sisterhoods getting together and -- and starting um, Camp Shalom. And from that came uh, what we call the Jewish Community Association. Judy Levine was very, very much a leader in helping that to come about. And over a lot of objections from particularly the rabbis, because they saw this as somehow taking away from, you know, the -- the strength and the resources of the congregations, um, that quickly evolved and took over, and along with the camp, it -- it also absorbed the uh, Jewish Community Forum, which had been sort of a freestanding uh, but organizationally supported series of lectures. And uh, as -- and then, when the idea came about to really bring the campaign, which had been also a separate unit on its own, the UJA, United Jewish Appeal. And there were -- there was sort of a committee of -- of five men who um, whose -- who ran the United Jewish Appeal campaign here. And there were, you know, a lot of people who would help uh, you know supported it in terms of soliciting members of the community, Leon Cooper and Shelly Dare and David Weckstein, um, but who was -- was on the steering committee, I don' ; t remember exactly everybody. But um, people like Stanley Rose and David Wheel, and um, probably um, you know, I -- I don' ; t remember all of the others. But anyway, um, then the concept came about, you know, knowing that the Federations of North America existed, the idea of bringing the campaign and all of these elements together under one umbrella, and that was -- and Chuck Gordesky and Dave Weckstein were pretty instrumental in that, each being president of their respective congregations. And decided that this would be beneficial for the community, and uh, so Chuck was the first um, president of what was then the Central Kentucky Jewish -- became the Central Kentucky Jewish Association. And David was the second president, and then it went on, Judy Levine and Gloria, um, Katz, and Jack Miller. And not necessarily in that order. Um, and that was after the JCA, the Jewish Community Association, had been in existence for about six or eight years, and there had been a number of people, Gail Cohen had been a president and -- and Judy, and I mentioned Judy Levine, Mike Bayer, who doesn' ; t live here anymore. And then, anyway, they started CKJA, and uh, for a couple of years, they had somebody working as kind of a secretary administrative assistant, out of her home, um, Kitzy Neuberger, who doesn' ; t live here anymore. And then they decided that what they wanted to do was really establish an office and make it, you know, more of a functioning, you know, or conventionally functioning community organization, and also, affiliate with the federations -- Jewish Federations of North -- North America. And they wanted to hire somebody as a staff person. And that' ; s where I came in. And uh, I applied for the job. It was a part-time job, I loved the idea, it was community organization work and that had been part of what I had trained in, in graduate school. And um, I got hired, and we set -- set up an office in a little building, office building off of Southland Drive, and hired a -- a secretary, and um, we were there for a couple of years, and then we moved over to Waller Avenue, into the basement of one of the buildings that was owned by Steve Caller and Irv Rosenstein. And then from there, we moved to Romney Road. And by then, I was still the -- I was still the um, director. CRANE: How long were you the director? SAXE: I started in -- pardon? CRANE: How long were you the director? SAXE: Uh, 1981 to 1986. Who were the presidents? Judy Levine and Jack Miller, and Gloria Katz were the presidents that I worked with. And um, and then we moved over to Romney Road into the -- a basement apartment of one of those buildings in back of Waller Pharmacy. And um, uh, and then um, and that' ; s -- and I -- we were there, and I -- I must have been there for the better part of, at least a year. I mean, all these moves came pretty fast. Um, and uh, and then I stepped down. And so, it was -- it was an exciting time, because we uh, it was really beginning to run the campaign out of a central -- not just the idea of an office, but a central body, Earl Levi was the campaign chair when I began. And uh, his daughter Leslie was working for AIPAC, and so he initiated uh, a um, a one-day uh, trip to Washington D.C., to um, AIPAC trip, which was very exciting. And uh, subsequently we had at least three or four others. And um, you know, met with AIPAC, met with your Congress people, met with uh, heard from various Senators and Congressman speaking, met with AIPAC people, met with -- uh, visited the Israel embassy. Visited the Pentagon. I mean, it was um, really very interesting. AIPAC was able -- would basically set up these -- these trips, and it was really very -- very, very good, very educational. And then, ultimately, really after my time, they uh, organized some missions to Israel. Uh, which was very -- we also adopted, during -- during my tenure, was um, uh, oh, the um, uh, another block. But a project in Israel to pair American Jewish communities with Israeli communities, and focus some of the fundraising on channeling money to these communities, which were basically disadvantaged. And uh, you know, some of the lower income neighborhoods, the immigrant neighborhoods that had never quite made it beyond a certain level. And we paired with Louisville on a -- on a neighborhood in -- in Netanya. Um, so we did that, I remember visiting the neighborhood, and meeting some of the people, it was pretty neat. And um, uh, anyway, it was -- it was an exciting time, because we were growing, you know, the -- we -- the um, Jewish Community Forum really petered out, because speakers became way too expensive for us. What we used to be able to get people for, you know, $500, maybe $1,000, you know, all of a sudden, fees were going up to 5,000, and 10,000. We couldn' ; t afford it. But uh, but we ran camp, you know, Camp Shalom. And um, was important. And the other big thing that we did was to initiate a Jewish family service, and hire somebody as a social worker. And Molly Schwab, Rabbi Schwab' ; s daughter, was one of our first social workers. Um, and that was -- that was important. Because when -- when we -- when we started to talk about developing a community-wide Jewish organization, Sue Friedman, who really also deserves a lot of uh, recognition and acknowledgement, um, was really one of the -- also one of the leaders, and more than that, helping to formulate a direction. And one of the things she was concerned about was um, aging, people who were aging in the community, and meeting their needs. And we um, carried out a -- a survey of every older Jewish adult we could identify in the community. This was in the early ' ; 70s. The interesting thing, not long after the camp was established, and so this was sort of the next project. One of the interesting things we discovered at that time was basically, almost every older Jewish adult at that time was from Lexington and had family here. And did not express any need for any kind of outside help, because their families were here to take care of them. I mean, you know, look at your family, or look at um, or the Himesons, or -- or all the Levis or, you know, whoever it was. There was a whole family network and that' ; s who took care of them. And it really wasn' ; t until really in the ' ; 80s, when I was the director that we began to find older adults who had either come here to be with their children, for instance who had come to the university, and then the kids left, the children -- the son or daughter left, and the older parent was still here, often in a nursing home or needing extra assistance of some kind. And -- or there were even some notably, some older people who had come here because the University of Kentucky offered the Donovan Scholars program, and they saw this as a good place to retire, and all of a sudden, we had older adults who were in need of care, support, whatever it was. And they didn' ; t have that family network. So that was one element. There also were the Russians, we started the Russian -- the program of bringing in Russians at that time. Uh, there were families who needed assistance and support, so that was another element. Not, you know, not large numbers, but still in all, they needed -- they needed help. And then, we began to, you know, as -- as we began to offer these kinds of services, all of a sudden, there were -- not all of a sudden, but gradually, I should say gradually, there were people who really needed other kinds of social services, whatever it was. I mean, we went through a time when I was still working, when there were any number of families who were looking to adopt, and one of the things that I was doing was helping to find sources for them, resources for them to go to, to, you know, have -- carry out an adoption. I didn' ; t do that myself, but, you know, at least to help them find those resources. Uh, and uh, you know, so there were all these things that became apparent, that either had not been so apparent before, or because the community was, up until really, IBM and the university began to expand, had been, you know, so much a localized community. You know, these were families who came and established businesses, and sometimes uh, you know, it would go on for several generations or whatever, or even if they spread out into other things like say, you know, David Aidey, so Lewis had -- his son still had the, you know, the uh, whatever it was, you know, he did with the wholesale -- CRANE: Dry goods. SAXE: Um, yeah, dry goods. Thank you. Um, you know, Mike became an attorney, and his David became a fireman. But, you know, they were still here. And um, all of a sudden we were getting families that came, like us and -- and all of, a lot of our closest friends, we banded together because we were here without our parents, and this is not where we were born and grew up, and -- but we all were about the same age, we all had kids about the same age, and it was a very natural bonding, and that was part of really what helped bring about Camp Shalom. You know, we saw a need for our -- our age group, our generation. CRANE: Judy, I just recently read that the funding for the Federation has declined. And I also read that Judy Wartman, who is the present director, is moving, and there' ; s going to be a search for a new director. Judy will certainly be missed, but um, can you just share your thoughts about why the funding for the Federation has declined, and what, if any, changes the Federation board may be looking for in a new director. SAXE: I' ; m not totally certain why the funding has declined. I know that in the early years, certainly a significant part of fundraising was tied to Israel. And there were crises, the Six Day War, the Yom Kippur War, uh, the uh, bringing in the Russians, bringing in the Ethiopians, so there was a, you know, an emergent cause. Um, you know, so I don' ; t know if it' ; s because we don' ; t have crises and to motivate people, that could be one thing. It -- I don' ; t think it' ; s one -- any one single thing, I think it' ; s much more complex than that. I think that may be part of it. I think that a lot of the younger generations don' ; t -- just don' ; t see this as a significant um, uh, target for their -- their philanthropic giving. I think that um, some of the wealthier, the older wealthier families who gave significantly, um, are no longer with us. Um, I think that some of the wealthier families who are with us, um, just don' ; t see this as a priority. They don' ; t have that attachment. On the other hand, there are some of the wealthier families who do give significantly, but not enough of them. In a bigger city, um, you know, and I um, have spent a -- I know people in Boston, for instance, who are very involved with the Fed -- their Federation, and what goes on in, for my own professional experience, even though it' ; s in the past, um, you know, you get -- you have people who can afford to give significantly. And I mean, in the hundreds of thousands, or the millions. And um, they have to be courted, they have to be developed. Um, I think that some have been, some have just held themselves -- very consciously, have held themselves apart. Um, and it' ; s -- it' ; s a real -- it' ; s a real problem. I think also, it' ; s very difficult to get people to volunteer to do some of the hands-on kinds of work that -- that our -- my parents were doing that we were doing, that, as the generations have gone on, they' ; ve moved away from that. Um, it' ; s very hard to get people to volunteer to solicit. Um, and when you do, um, you know, we -- even though we try, for example, here, uh, in Lexington, to reach out to everybody we possibly can. You know, if you get somebody to commit at 18 or $36, that' ; s wonderful because they feel that they' ; re a part of it, and we want them to feel that way. But, 18 and $36 is not going to do it. You need tens of thousands of dollars to really make it go, and you need -- you need a -- a core of people. You know, in the -- for a community the size of Lexington, you need, in the tens of people who do that. In the bigger cities, you have hundreds. And we don' ; t -- and we don' ; t have one -- the closest we probably have had is somebody like Steve Kahler, who has that kind of depth of commitment and feeling about it. And um, he' ; s not around as much anymore, um, his -- his peers are not necessarily um, participating at the same -- at a similar level. Um, and, you know, you get retired faculty people like us, and, you know, we -- I would say from what I know, we -- we probably do OK in terms of what we contribute. But um, you need a lot more -- I don' ; t think um, a lot of our peers do that as well. And um, and it' ; s -- so it' ; s tough. It' ; s very tough. And as a result, the money that we give to Israel, and Israel causes, or causes beyond the local Jewish community, has declined. And, you know, it' ; s kind of a catch-22, so then it isn' ; t something you go to somebody and say listen, you know, we' ; re giving to -- in the old days, um, um, uh, what' ; s his name? Wheel. Not David. Um, Herschel. Herschel Wheel, you know, had um, was a farmer. He -- he raised sheep. He sold -- he was a significant purveyor of wholesale lamb meat, right? And when -- and when they had this old UJA committee, one of the things they gave to was the Jewish Farmers of America. Because that' ; s what Herschel wanted, you know? Well, he participated and he was very generous, but by golly, some of that money went to the Jewish Farmers of America -- or it was Jewish Future Farmers, I don' ; t -- you know, but it was that kind of a thing. And we don' ; t -- we don' ; t raise enough money to do that kind of thing, and some of the -- and I don' ; t, I' ; m not sure that we have people in the community who would up their participation or become more involved if -- if we did. I don' ; t know if they have that sense of, you know, what' ; s beyond -- beyond Lexington. CRANE: Interesting. OK Judy. Um, you' ; ve seen a lot in Lexington, you' ; ve been really active in several organizations, in the synagogue, in the Havurah and Hadassah, and uh, the Federation, and if you could just -- leadership roles that various people have had, if you could somehow, sum up how -- what you see as the changes that you' ; ve witnessed in Lexington, Jewish community, over the years. Has it changed? SAXE: Oh yeah. CRANE: And what do you see as the most significant? SAXE: Um, OK. So, when we came it was a very small, fairly inbred Jewish community, but very, very close. I' ; ve talked about this, you know, very close, I felt very warm and supportive. Um, we' ; ve grown, so that um, none of us really know everybody in the Jewish community anymore, even -- even if I probably never knew everybody, I certainly felt as if I knew almost everybody. And um, uh, so we' ; re -- we' ; re bigger, we' ; re not huge, we' ; re still a small Jewish community, but um, I think being bigger, that it' ; s a little more diffuse, because I think that even with the Federation, even with an organization like Hadassah, or even B' ; nai Brith, which struggles to, you know, keep going and really also reaches out beyond the congregational boundaries. It' ; s very -- it' ; s -- it' ; s a challenge to reach out and connect with all these people. Um, so I think that' ; s a change. I think um, you know, that -- and on the other hand, there are ways in which we' ; re more sophisticated. Um, you know, as -- as with being able to offer professional Jewish social service uh, resources. Um, we um, I think there' ; s still -- there' ; s still a strong thread of -- of support, mutual support. Um, you know, where do we -- where do I see it now? I see it sadly, when I go to funerals. And you, you know, you see -- see that cutting across lines that people really care enough that they reach out. And it' ; s not only funerals, but it' ; s the care and support for the -- for the family members that are left behind. And I see it on, to a certain extent, with some of our older community members who um, you know, are in need of support, supportive services. And the fact that it' ; s not simply turned over to a social worker, but that there are volunteers in the community who still feel that they want to reach out and do something in that way, I think it' ; s um, just as a general comment, not even so much about Lexington. Um, but true heroes, well people get a lot more satisfaction out of being able to do something hands-on. Now they may be very selective about what they' ; re -- what they' ; re going to do, but that' ; s very meaningful. So, you know, I -- as I think about it, for example, we -- which is something that has changed, and I think for the better, you know, that publicizing to the community that we go to help stock um, the shelves at -- at God' ; s Pantry, that um, the temple uh, provides a lot of support to uh, one of the local, you know, nearby elementary schools, as does the synagogue, doing the backpack -- backpacking things. So, um, I think we are trying, as a Jewish community to um, you know, while -- while we retain our Jewish identity, to really also be a part of the community at large. It brings challenges. One, I was interviewed, what is it now, about 20, 25 years ago. And the question was, do you think it' ; s easier to be Jewish now than it was 50 years ago? Well, you know, that was, we' ; re talking, back in the ' ; 20s, ' ; 30s, ' ; 40s, 50 years ago. And there was a lot of anti-Semitism visible, expressed anti-Semitism in this country. And certainly in Europe, and um, so, you know, people said it -- the saying was in Yiddish, " ; It' ; s hard to be a Jew," ; because you were constantly afraid that you were going to be attacked in some way, and you certainly, you know, were -- were limited in what you could do professionally because there were laws, or quotas, so that you couldn' ; t just apply to any university or go to any school. In some ways, and my -- my reaction at that time was, I think it' ; s harder today, because you really have to work harder to retain your Jewish identity, because there aren' ; t the restrictions on your movement, on your choice of professions, on your choice of a mate, on your whatever it is, on how you behave. You can do -- do whatever you want. So I -- to get back to the Federation, I think it' ; s a struggle for the Federation as well, in a sense, an institutional struggle, to create and maintain that identity as a central address for the Jewish community, and in a positive way that will help it to not only continue to exist, but to grow and to develop and to evolve as the needs -- as the needs evolve. Did I make sense? (laughter) CRANE: Yes. Looking back, what if anything would you change about your relationship with Judaism, if there' ; s anything? SAXE: Hmm. CRANE: Would you do anything differently? SAXE: I' ; ve said this a lot in recent years, I probably would have become a rabbi. (laughter) CRANE: Wow. SAXE: I -- you know, when I -- when I graduated from college, basically women -- you know, not every woman, obviously, but, you know, the most common thing for women to do, you became a nurse or a teacher, or a social worker. Um, you know, it wasn' ; t as common for women to be working outside the home, it was really sort of at the beginning of that. I remember a classmate of mine, and -- at um, Brandeis who was a really good mathematician, and she was going into some of the early um, developing work with computers about which I knew absolutely nothing. But, uh, you know, or -- or you might go into some sort of an academic, maybe higher level academic role. But the seminaries weren' ; t taking women in those days. It was only after we were here in Lexington, I remember when Sally Prizand -- Prizand, graduated from Hebrew Union College up in Cincinnati, and it was such a big deal. And then, the struggle until the Jewish Theological Seminary, which is Conservative, began to accept women. Um, and I don' ; t know, a few years ago, I thought if things had been different then, I very probably would have applied to a rabbinical school. And because it really combines all these things that I like, working with people, um, within a Jewish context. Um, educating, not -- not so much the structured schoolroom kind of thing, but, you know, in a broader sense. So, I guess that -- that would be a change. CRANE: Well Judy, it has been wonderful chatting with you. And before we end this interview, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to share that I' ; ve not asked you about, that you think would be important for us to know? SAXE: Oh gosh. (laughter) This has been a -- a really, I' ; ve enjoyed this, because it' ; s been very thought provoking. CRANE: Me too. SAXE: Um, no I really -- CRANE: Think about -- SAXE: -- at this point, I guess -- I guess the only other thing I would say is that, um, you know, we came here by chance, and it has turned out to be a very good choice. And uh, we never expected to be here more than three or four years, you know, and here we are 50 -- 53 years later. And um, it' ; s -- it' ; s been a good, good place to grow and mature, and to live. CRANE: Thank you. Those of us that were already here were delighted you came. SAXE: (laughter). [END OF AUDIO FILE] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh471_jk012_saxe_ohm.xml 2015oh471_jk012_saxe_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh471_jk012_saxe_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Judy Saxe, December 1, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Judy Saxe discusses her family history. She discusses her and her family's relationship to Judaism. Both her father and her grandfather were rabbis. Judy Saxe examines her family customs of keeping kosher and Shabbat practices.
Judy Saxe discusses the role of Judaism in her life in college at Brandeis University. She participated in the Student Zionist Organization and eventually took a year off school to do a work-study program in Israel. Judy Saxe discusses the series of events that led to her and her family living in Lexington, Kentucky. Saxe discusses how her family observed the high holidays in Lexington, Kentucky. She discusses her children's experiences growing up Jewish in Lexington.
Judy Saxe discusses the formation of the Lexington Havurah and how it has transformed today. Saxe discusses her involvement with Hadassah both locally and nationally. She discusses why there have been so many women in leadership positions at Hadassah from Lexington since 1969 to now. Saxe discusses her involvement in the Jewish Federation.
Judy Saxe discusses her views on Israel and its politics. Judy Saxe discusses the changes she has witnessed in Lexington's Jewish community over time. She discusses how she would change her relationship to Judaism. She expresses her desire to become a rabbi and calls attention to the way Jewish gender roles have changed throughout her entire life.
Identifier
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2015oh471_jk012
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jewish families.
Religion
Jews--Identity.
Worship (Judaism)
Judaism.
Lexington (Ky.)
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Jewish children
Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington
Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/4284cbf4e70f264abaa03ffe5adfa93e.jpeg
3da69c3cc9d33b0c96ec4d026a80505e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
George Schwartzman
Interview Keyword
Holidays.
Family histories.
Religion
Jewish families.
Jewish children
College campuses.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh435_jk011 Interview with George Schwartzman, October 22, 2015 2015oh435_jk011 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) College environment College students--Social conditions College students--Religious life Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Governors--Election Politics and government Universities and colleges--Religion. Holidays. Family histories. Religion Jewish families. Jewish children College campuses. George Schwartzman Janice Crane 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253325308" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family origins and early childhood For official purposes, today is October 22nd, 2015. George Schwartzman discusses how he was born in Buffalo, New York on December 15th, 1945, and talks about his family's arrival in the U.S. He also discusses growing up in a Jewish home and how the holidays he and his family celebrated influenced him. They played a big part in his life and he really enjoyed going to services on the High Holidays. Buffalo (N.Y.) ; Jewish holidays ; Lithuania ; Russia Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 42.886447, -78.878369 17 Buffalo, New York. George's birthplace. 568 Jewish life on the University of Kentucky campus in the 1960s Uh, can you share--you mentioned that you weren't crazy about your fraternity life, um, that you were a ZBT. Can you describe what that was like and share what you liked about it or what you didn’t like about it? Schwartzman speaks about the existence of Jewish life on the University of Kentucky's campus. He talks about his involvement in Hillel as well as Zeta Beta Tau. However, even though he was a member of both, he preferred to attend Hillel events. Schwartzman also talks about living in Haggin Hall his freshmen year. He was president of Hillel at UK sometime between 1963-1967. Dormitories ; Hillel ; Jewish ; Roommates ; State Street ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College environment ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion 38.039712, -84.495076 17 Location of the Hillel House http://kyhillel.org Hillel Website 1206 Jewish Lexington How did your time at UK impact your Jewish identity? Schwartzman deviates from the initial asked question, and talks about how wonderful and beautiful Lexington is. He also speaks of his current home in Indian Wells, California. Schwartzman discusses his children's experiences with Judaism. He mentions how he has to pick and choose where to go for the holidays. He also mentions about how he frequently went to Temple with Fanny Miller. The Millers were close friends of his. Campus ; Hillel ; Jewish ; Social Life ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 33.717631, -116.340755 17 George's current home Indian Wells, California. http://www.ozs.org Ohavay Zion Synagogue, one of the two temples in Lexington. 1916 George's children Are your children practicing Jews now? Schwartzman discusses his children, and how both of them married South African Jews. He speaks about the way his children observe all the major holidays but aren't frequent Temple goers. However, his daughter-in-law is sending her children to an Orthodox Chabad school. One of Schwartzman's children recently moved to Scottsdale, Arizona. He often has to pick and choose which child's holiday celebrations to attend. Kosher ; South Africans ; Synagogue Families. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 33.494170, -111.926052 17 Scottsdale, Arizona. Home of one of Schwartzman's children. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/South_Africa.html History on the Jews of South Africa. 2434 Lexington, Kentucky What else would you like to share that I haven’t asked you about? Schwartzman discusses the many differences between Lexington and California. He emphasizes how special Lexington is because of its small but great atmosphere. He also speaks of the architecture and beauty of the buildings there. Architecture ; California ; Kentucky Lexington (Ky.) 38.040584, -84.503716 17 Lexington, Kentucky http://www.visitlex.com Lexington Visitor's Website 2557 California governor election of 2003 But it’s big. It’s immense. You can get lost. I’ll give you an example, I’ll tell you an interesting story. Schwartzman ran for California Governor in the recall election of 2003. He ran against Arnold Schwarzenegger and received 12,382 votes when Schwarzenegger received almost 4 million. He talks about how only 135 people were qualified to run. Gary Coleman barely beat him for an 8th place finish in the race. 2003 ; Arnold Schwarzenegger ; California ; Gary Coleman ; Votes Governors--Election ; Politics and government 17 http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/09/us/california-recall-also-rans-just-being-game-was-enough-for-some-who-came-away.html New York Times article on the infamous California recall election of 2003. 2799 " ; Homeland" ; television show This is more just for the, uh, sake of the interview because I find it sort of interesting. I know that you have a special relationship with a, um--one of the stars of “Homeland.” So if you could just share a little teeny bit of that. Schwartzman talks about how he met Marsha Patinkin on J-Date. They hit it off pretty well and were married for a little over three years until she passed away. Her brother was Mandy Patinkin. " ; Homeland" ; ; J-Date ; Mandy Patinkin ; Marsha Patinkin Homeland (Television program : 2011- ) ; Jewish families. ; Television programs. 41.878114, -87.629798 17 Birthplace of Many Patinkin. Chicago, Illinois http://www.mandypatinkin.org Mandy Patinkin's Personal Website 2909 Advice for Jewish students at UK Um, is there anything that you would share or recommend, um, for a Jewish student coming to UK based on your experiences? Schwartzman emphasizes that Kentucky is a state with not that large of a Jewish population. He applauds President Capilouto for all the hard work he has done to make a Jewish presence known on UK's campus. He also stresses how the construction on UK's campus is leading the future of schools across the country. It is a great way to recruit new students to the university. He continues to say that Jewish life is significantly building on campus and is moving in a positive direction. Eli Capilouto ; Rosh Hashanah College administrators ; College buildings. ; College campuses. ; College environment ; College presidents ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Universities and colleges--Administration. ; Universities and colleges--Religion. 38.036421, -84.502063 17 Home of President Eli Capilouto http://www.uky.edu/UKHome/ University of Kentucky's Website Oral History George Schwartzman discusses his birth in Buffalo, New York, and talks about his family's arrival in the U.S. He also discusses growing up in a Jewish home and how the holidays he and his family celebrated influenced him. Schwartzman speaks about the existence of Jewish life on the University of Kentucky's campus. He talks about his involvement in Hillel as well as Zeta Beta Tau. He was president of Hillel at UK sometime between 1963-1967. He discusses the current climate at UK for Jewish students. Schwartzman discusses his children, and how both of them married South African Jews. He speaks about the way his children observe all the major holidays but aren't frequent Temple goers. However, his daughter-in-law is sending her children to an Orthodox Chabad school. Schwartzman ran for California Governor in the recall election of 2003. He ran against Arnold Schwarzenegger and received 12,382 votes when Schwarzenegger received almost 4 million. He talks about how only 135 people were qualified to run. Gary Coleman barely beat him for an 8th place finish in the race. No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh435_jk011_schwatrzman_ohm.xml 2015oh435_jk011_schwatrzman_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh435_jk011_schwatrzman_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
George Schwartzman, October 22, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
George Schwartzman discusses his birth in Buffalo, New York, and talks about his family's arrival in the U.S. He also discusses growing up in a Jewish home and how the holidays he and his family celebrated influenced him. Schwartzman speaks about the existence of Jewish life on the University of Kentucky's campus. He talks about his involvement in Hillel as well as Zeta Beta Tau. He was president of Hillel at UK sometime between 1963-1967. He discusses the current climate at UK for Jewish students.
Schwartzman discusses his children, and how both of them married South African Jews. He speaks about the way his children observe all the major holidays but aren't frequent Temple goers. However, his daughter-in-law is sending her children to an Orthodox Chabad school.
Schwartzman ran for California Governor in the recall election of 2003. He ran against Arnold Schwarzenegger and received 12,382 votes when Schwarzenegger received almost 4 million. He talks about how only 135 people were qualified to run. Gary Coleman barely beat him for an 8th place finish in the race.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2015oh435_jk011
Subject
The topic of the resource
College environment
College students--Social conditions
College students--Religious life
Jews--Identity.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
Governors--Election
Politics and government
Universities and colleges--Religion.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/edc4cc8fc1112679a0c4805ee54ccfb5.jpeg
a08f977b7209e8c14466729d66d9c9a1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Leon Cooper
Interview Keyword
Race relations--United States
Race discrimination
Emigration and immigration.
African Americans--Relations with Jews.
Childhood
Racism
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Hospitals--Kentucky--Lexington
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh434_jk010 Interview with Leon Cooper, October 16, 2015 2015oh434_jk010 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Genealogy Discrimination United States. Navy. United States. Navy--Military life World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. Engineering Education Technological innovations International Business Machines Corporation. Lexington (Ky.) Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish businesspeople Religion Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Jews--Identity. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Race relations--United States Race discrimination Emigration and immigration. African Americans--Relations with Jews. Childhood Racism Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Hospitals--Kentucky--Lexington Leon Cooper Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|18(12)|44(7)|81(11)|92(3)|113(12)|146(8)|161(8)|180(6)|197(6)|217(1)|233(1)|252(5)|268(2)|277(5)|288(8)|297(8)|313(12)|335(10)|348(5)|364(14)|398(11)|413(4)|442(6)|451(1)|459(3)|476(10)|489(10)|508(11)|521(4)|532(3)|541(5)|561(13)|573(5)|594(8)|608(2)|618(8)|653(3)|674(2)|693(1)|707(15)|728(17)|757(1)|781(7)|793(7)|807(14)|821(9)|832(8)|847(6)|864(14)|881(5)|901(11)|910(6)|926(3)|934(9)|947(16)|966(10)|989(1)|1000(15)|1021(12)|1035(6)|1066(12)|1077(9)|1093(7)|1104(9)|1114(16)|1123(13)|1134(7)|1157(11)|1174(3)|1182(1)|1192(12)|1203(16)|1221(2)|1237(2)|1248(3)|1268(3)|1281(8)|1288(17)|1296(12)|1314(1)|1339(2)|1349(10)|1366(18)|1381(11)|1397(8)|1418(11)|1427(3)|1438(12)|1465(5)|1478(12)|1485(11)|1498(14)|1514(13)|1533(9)|1564(8)|1582(13)|1602(12) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253324613" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family information / background Hello, my name is Janice Fernheimer. Cooper describes his parents, his two siblings, his wife, and his three children. His father, Isadore Cooper, and mother, Dora Cooper, both grew up in shtetls in Eastern Europe and immigrated to the United States separately around 1919 and the early 1920s, respectively. They came to Norfolk, Virginia due to a family tie from his mother’s side. 1919 ; 1920 ; 1927 ; Cattle ; Cooper family ; Dora Cooper ; East European immigrants ; Family history ; Grocery stores ; Harriet Rudman ; Isadore Cooper ; Kiev (Ukraine) ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Norfolk (Va.) ; Parents ; Roksik (Lithuania) ; Shtetl Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Genealogy ; Livestock 36.8508, -76.2859 17 Norfolk (Va.) http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/shtetl-in-jewish-history-and-memory/ " ; Shtetl and Jewish History in Memory" ; . Background on what a shtetl was, what life was like the shtetls. 342 Naval service and Jewish identity in the Navy Um, and I understand that you were in the service? Was it the Navy? Is that correct? Cooper served in the Navy in 1945 and 1946 and was let out when the war was over to attend college. After graduating in 1950, he came back to serve another two years. Cooper talks about Jewish identity in relation to his Naval service and his reason for enlisting. He talks about giving up some aspects of kashrut but maintained parts of the practice such as not eating meat with milk. He discusses celebrating holidays while on duty and bonding with other Jewish navy men. Cooper retired from the Navy in 1968. 1945 ; 1946 ; 1950 ; 1952 ; 1968 ; Active duty ; Aircraft carriers ; Enlisted ; Hebrew ; Jewish ; Jews in the United States military ; Kashrut ; Kosher ; Ladino ; Lieutenant commanders ; Matzah ; Matzoh ; Military discrimination ; Military enlistment ; Military service ; Navy Reserves ; Norfolk (Va.) ; Passover ; World War 2 ; World War II ; WWII ; Yiddish ; Yom Kippur Discrimination ; United States. Navy--Military life ; United States. Navy. ; World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. 17 http://www.aleph-institute.org/history-of-jews-in-the-us-military.html " ; History of Jews in the US Military" ; 632 Involvement with IBM and word processing Wow. I’m going to switch gears a little bit. Cooper clarifies that while he was one of the first engineers on the team that developed the technology that opened up the doors for word processing, he was not involved with the invention of the IBM Selectric during his time at IBM. 1950 ; 1952 ; 1957 ; 1958 ; International Business Machines (IBM) ; Magtape Selectric Typewriter ; Mechanical engineering ; New York ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; Tom Eblen ; Typewriters ; VPI ; Word processing Engineering ; International Business Machines Corporation. 17 http://www.kentucky.com/news/business/article44485857.html Tom Eblen: IBM retiree tells how he helped invent word processing in Lexington 721 College and career outside of the Navy Um, but tell me a little bit about kind of those years in between, uh, your time in the, the service and then you went to college. Cooper went to school at Virginia Tech from 1946-1950 and studied mechanical engineering. After graduating in 1950 he went back into the Navy to serve for two more years before retiring from service. After his retirement, he decided to focus his career on his mechanical engineering background and applied for a position at IBM not knowing that IBM began transitioning from mechanical punch card equipment to computers in 1950. Colleges ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Virginia Tech Education ; Employment ; Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University 17 http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/ibm100/us/en/icons/selectric/ The Selectric Typewriter 804 IBM shifts focus to computers Well, it turns out, that 1950 is when IBM was transitioning from the mechanical card punching to computers. Cooper discusses the beginnings of word processing. He talks about the challenges typists would face when they wanted to create multiple copies of a document and how time consuming it was. They were hoping to create a typewriter that could record the keystrokes and allow the typist to more efficiently create copies of a document. The inventions were fairly successful but were soon superseded by other inventions and newer technology. IBM Selectric ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Inventions ; Jewish involvement in mechanization ; Mag tape ; Selectric ; Technology ; Typewriters ; Word processing International Business Machines Corporation. ; Technological innovations 17 https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/modelb/modelb_milestone.html Timeline of IBM typewriter milestones 1058 Move and transition to Lexington, Kentucky When did you move from Poughkeepsie to Lexington? Cooper moved to Lexington in March of 1958 with his wife and two children--his third child was born later in Lexington. The first thing Cooper looked for when coming to Lexington was a conservative synagogue because the absence of a synagogue would have been a deal breaker. The culture and atmosphere of the Lexington community was similar to the small community he experienced in Virginia. There were about 90,000 people living in Lexington during this time and the Jewish community was about 2,000. Many people came to Lexington for the Chandler Medical Center. Cooper transitions into a discussion of the Hadassah Medical Center and the Lexington Jewish community's interaction with both medical centers. 1958 ; Balls (dances) ; Chandler Hospital ; Chandler Medical Center ; Community involvement ; Dress balls ; Hadassah ; Hadassah Medical Organization ; Jewish businesses ; Marilyn Moosnick ; Move to Kentucky ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (OZS) (Lexington, Ky.) ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; Small businesses ; Small town life ; Synagogues ; Virginia Academic medical centers ; Hospitals--Kentucky--Lexington ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Medical care--Kentucky ; Religion 31.7662, 35.1494 17 Hadassah Medical Center, Ein Kerem (Jerusalem) http://www.hadassah-med.com/about/history History of Hadassah Medical Organization 1324 IBM and Japanese word processing I’m going to go back to the word processing just for a minute, cause I wonder, uh, uh, if you could tell me a little bit about the differences in Japanese and Chinese word processing? Cooper discusses working on a Japanese typewriter at IBM and the challenges they faced creating a type writer to print characters that were not alphanumeric and condensing a language with over 10,000 characters into a single keyboard. Cooper discusses cultural challenges they faced that may be the reason this invention never got past the experimental phase. 1970s ; Alphanumeric characters ; Chinese ; Code ; Culture ; Experimental ; Human Factors Group ; Inkjet printers ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Japanese ; Kanji characters ; Languages ; Typewriters ; Women Engineering ; International Business Machines Corporation. ; Technological innovations 17 1645 Retirement from IBM / starting QED Medical You were--you retired shortly--well, I don’t know about shortly, but a few--ten years later, right? Cooper retired from IBM in 1982 and immediately created his own company known as QED Medical--a medical technology company based in Lexington. While at IBM he was involved with some medical technology projects which is where he became enamored with medical work and even picked up a small side project creating a medical device for a surgeon. He used this experience as his motivation to create QED Medical. Cooper also discusses his children's involvement with the company. 1982 ; Businesses ; Competitors ; Family businesses ; Family involvement ; Medical research ; Medical technology ; QED Medical ; Retirement ; Small businesses ; Technology Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://www.qedisit.com/ QED Medical Website 2021 Involvement and leadership within the Lexington Jewish community Well, you've talked a little bit about your family’s involvement in the business, and I want to switch gears a bit, again. Cooper talks about his transition into the Lexington community and how his experiences in Poughkeepsie were not much different than Lexington. He talks about how he quickly got involved in synagogue affairs and leadership. He was President of the Synagogue on two separate occasions, he had leadership roles within the UJA, he and other members of the congregation collected bonds for Israel, and he was involved with the B’nai Brith organization. He explains that all of his service efforts have been within the Jewish community because there are enough people to do everything else. He wanted to put his efforts where they could do the most good and therefore sees these positions as the most important in his life. B'nai Brith ; Bonds ; Butcher shops ; Community involvement ; Hillel ; Israel ; Israel bonds ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kosher delis ; Leadership ; Ohavay Zion Synagagoue (OZS) (Lexington, Ky.) ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; President of the Synagagoue ; Small town life ; Synagogues ; United Jewish Appeal (UJA) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 37.9986, -84.4718 17 Ovahay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; http://doczz.net/doc/4160789/february-2016-bulletin---ohavay-zion-synagogue Ohavay Zion Synagogue bulletin from February 2016. Includes events that were held there in February. 2658 Establishing a Jewish Burial Society in Lexington One of the things that you did as part of that effort is to reestablish the chevra kadisha here. Cooper delves into reestablishing the chevra kadisha, or burial society. He talks about the need and importance of having this service in Lexington and what this service does for people. 1990 ; Burial societies ; Cemeteries ; Chevra kadisha ; Death ; Jewish cemeteries ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Kentucky ; Meyer's Funeral Home ; Rabbi Smith Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 17 https://d2sghkvizede3b.cloudfront.net/106/214/Shalom%25208-13web.pdf Shalom newsletter from the Jewish Federation of the bluegrass. Including an article called " ; The Jewish Cemetery in Lexington" ; that talks about the founding of the Chevra Kadisha. 3129 Raising Jewish children in 1960s Lexington Um, I’m going to come back to the family stuff again. Leon discusses challenges of raising Jewish children in Lexington, Kentucky, and the changes in society from then to now. He talks about going to his children's schools to teach their classes about Jewish customs ; religiously biased prayers in schools ; and the challenges they faced being conservative Jews in the bible belt. He has adopted an attitude that he can't do as much as he wishes to change attitudes towards Judaism, but does believe that different things are being done now to better accommodate Jewish students. 1950s ; 1960s ; 1970s ; Bible belt ; Challenges ; Children ; Christianity ; Christmas ; Conservative Judaism ; Easter ; Family life ; Family values ; Hannukah ; Jewish ; Jewish children ; Jewish Christmas ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Judaism ; Kids ; Rosh Hashanah ; Yom Kippur Education ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. 39.21586619999999, -84.4294327 17 Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass http://www.jewishlexington.org Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass 3310 Social events at Ohavay Zion Synagogue / changes within the community Um, can you tell me a little bit about the social events at OZ--that took place at OZS in the ’50s and ’70s? Cooper discusses various social events at OZS from the 1950s to the 1970s. Some examples include a Yom Kippur ball for the adults to celebrate Yom Kippur and a theatre group, The Center Players. All events were synagogue functions and not community functions. Cooper discusses why he thinks these kinds of events don't take place in the synagogue today. He also talks about how the Lexington Jewish community is diverse in terms of the kinds of Jewish congregations they accommodate (reform, conservative, orthodox) and how that is a strength of the community. He also talks about the organizations that are being created now to bring unity to the newer generations within the community and how with each rabbi things will change. 1960s ; 1970s ; A Gold We Got (Song) ; Anything Goes (Song) ; Breaking the fast ; Celebrations ; Chabad ; Conservative Judaism ; Jewish women ; Music ; My Fair Sadie (Song) ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (OZS) (Lexington, Ky.) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Rabbis ; Reform Judaism ; Shul ; Social events ; The Center Players ; Theater ; Women's roles ; Yom Kippur ; Yom Kippur ball ; Younger generations Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 17 https://fedweb-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/fed-67/2/MarchShalom2015web.pdf The link to an article on Harriet Cooper (Leon's deceased wife) and her involvement in the social events of the Lexington Jewish Community at OZS specifically. 3595 Camp Shalom and other Jewish organizations What about Federation? You were around when Federation was formed, right? Cooper discusses the beginnings of two important community organizations: Camp Shalom and Federation. Carol Wirtshafter was the first head of Camp Shalom and was a driving force in its creation. Soon after the camp was established they created Federation which would host forum speakers to talk to the community and supply money for the camp and other endeavors. Back then, Federation was run by volunteers and now they have paid professionals running the organization. 1970 ; Camp Shalom ; Central Kentucky Jewish Federation (CKJF) ; Community involvement ; Forum series ; Forum speakers ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Volunteer work Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 17 https://jewishlexington.org/camp-shalom Camp Shalom website 3747 Social and cultural differences within the Lexington Jewish community Another question, sort of back in the idea of these social circles. Cooper discusses how he is the first generation in his family born in America and everyone he knew growing up was as well. He was bewildered when he came to Lexington he met people who were fifth and sixth generation Jewish Americans but he found that the community was ready to accept everyone. The Lexington Jewish community, whether one belonged to the Temple or the Shul, made connections with each other. He also discusses how he met very few Yiddish speakers in Lexington. It was mostly the older men with whom he could speak Yiddish with. Community ; Cultural acceptance ; First generation ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (OZS) (Lexington, Ky.) ; Rafi Finkel ; Synagogues ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, Ky.) ; Yiddish ; Yiddish scholars Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 17 https://ingeveb.org/blog/digital-futures-the-great-hope-of-yiddish-ocr Interview with Rafi Finkel about the future and hope for the Yiddish language. 3968 Interfaith interactions What--this is a--moving a little in a different direction. Um, what was the non-Jewish community’s reaction to your Jewishness here in Lexington? Cooper discusses holding an education event in the 1960s for the non-Jewish community of Lexington to learn more about Jewish customs and holidays. It was put together in the circle where Cooper lived. Each Jewish family in the neighborhood would open up their homes and each was set up to represent a different holiday. It was highly successful and they had many people from churches who came to take the holiday tour. Church ; Community involvement ; Education ; Holidays ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holiday tours ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish tradition ; Lexington community ; Non-Jewish Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 17 http://www.kentucky.com/news/nation-world/national/article107475697.html Recent article in the Herald Leader explaining Yom Kippur and how to respect those observing the holiday to the general Lexington population 4134 Experiences with anti-Semitism Have you had any--or what have your experiences been with anti-Semitism? Cooper discusses how he was able to blend in more with the general population since he could not be identified as Jewish from his name or appearance. He also discusses how he learned how to deal with antisemitism in a less emotional way. He did experience antisemitism, specifically citing an example of Catholic private schools in Virginia looking to beat Jewish people up. He also discusses running into unpleasant people while at IBM. He fears that antisemitism will come back to America. Antisemitism ; Catholic ; Easter ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; Sacred Heart ; Violence ; Virginia Discrimination. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 http://www.wtvq.com/2017/01/31/henry-clay-hs-student-speaks-swastika-found-henry-clay-hs/ Recent article and interview with a Lexington Jewish high school student speaking out about anti-Semitic instances at Henry Clay High School. 4282 Personal experiences with race relations The blacks, interestingly enough, growing up in Virginia, uh, I took the, uh, Jim Crow laws as gospel. Cooper discusses how while growing up, his interactions with African Americans were similar to most interactions during the time of the Jim Crow laws. It wasn't until a particular instance when he was driving age and an interaction with their maid made him realize how deeply bothered he was by the treatment of African Americans. He explains that these race relations hit him harder than the antisemitism he experienced. He also discusses the interaction between the Jewish community and the African American community in Lexington in the 1950s, citing specific instances with IBM policies. 1950 ; Anti-Semitism ; Country clubs ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Jim Crow Laws ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; Relations with African Americans ; Virginia African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Race discrimination ; Race relations--United States ; Racism 17 http://www.vahistorical.org/collections-and-resources/virginia-history-explorer/jim-crow-civil-rights-virginia History of Jim Crow laws in Virginia 4576 Generational differences in Jewish identity--His parents Um, so many different things to cover. Cooper discusses the similarities and differences between his parents' Jewishness and his family's Jewishness, as well as his personal Jewish identity. His parents grew up in small Jewish towns in Eastern Europe, and he talks about how both his parents were very devout. Their move to the United States was a bigger change for them than Cooper's move to Lexington was for him. He talks about how they had to adapt to a non-majority Jewish society. Cooper believes that he celebrates holidays better now than in his childhood. Cooper also discusses his memories of family gatherings growing up. Aleph Zadik Aleph (AZA) ; Cheder ; East European immigrants ; Family gatherings ; Family traditions ; Hebrew ; Hebrew school ; Jewish ; Jewish communities. ; Jewish education ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Jewish schools ; Jewish society ; Jewish stores ; Judaism ; Kashrut ; Kosher ; Seder ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Shtetl ; Traditional food Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 38.90005300000001, -77.02319899999998 17 National headquarters of AZA, Washington, D.C. (now the male wing of BBYO.) http://bbyo.org/azabbg/history_of_aza/ The history of Aleph Zadik Aleph 4900 Generational differences in Jewish identity--His children And what about your children c--in, in comparison to your sense of Jewishness. Cooper discusses the Jewishness of his children. His two sons married converts and keep Kosher homes but her daughter does not. He talks about how his kids and grandkids are straying from Jewish customs and how he believes Jewish traditions won't continue past his children. Children ; Circumcision ; Converting to Judaism ; Generational change ; Generations ; Grandchildren ; Jewish ; Jewish customs ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Marriage ; Younger generations Jewish children--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 17 4996 Socializing among other Jewish youth How would you say where you grew up or and have lived your adult life here in Kentucky has affected the way that you think about Judaism or your relationship with Judaism? Cooper discusses how he knew all the Jewish girls from Baltimore to Jacksonville, and discusses how organizations like AZA allowed the Jewish youth to partake in non-Jewish customs (like prom) with people they could relate to. He then discusses how he met his wife Harriet. Aleph Zadik Aleph (AZA) ; Community ; Community interaction ; Dating ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish youth ; Marriage ; Prom Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 37.1383, -80.5506 17 Radford University http://bbyo.org/azabbg/history_of_aza/ History of AZA 5304 Advice to students / challenges the Jewish community is facing Is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you would like to share? Cooper discusses why he thinks Lexington is a great community and a great place to grow up. He believes it is only going to get better and cites the positive interactions between all the rabbis. He also gives advice to current UK Jewish students and offers his take on challenges that the Jewish community is currently facing and could face in the future. He talks briefly about Israel and the issues Jews are facing in Europe. He doesn't think things are going to get better over there but believes things in the U.S. will get better. He also talks about how there's nothing Jewish in Kentucky outside of Lexington and Louisville. American-Jewish community ; Europe ; France ; Germany ; Globally ; Hillel ; Israel ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish persecution ; Jewish population ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Locally ; United States ; University of Kentucky (UK) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 38.0307, -84.5040 17 University of Kentucky http://kyhillel.org Hillel at the University of Kentucky 5709 Changing family names I knew I’d forget something. I’m glad we’re able to get back on here. Leon, can you tell me if Cooper was shortened, and if, if so, when? And by whom? Cooper talks about how his father was not the first in his family to come to America. He had two sisters and a brother come here and they shortened their last name from Kyperstein to Cooper and so when his father came over he came over as Cooper. His mother's family shortened their family name to Aframe from Aframowitz. Some of Cooper's father's family came over as Kyperstein. Aframe ; Aframowitz ; Assimilation ; Changing last names ; Cooper ; East European immigrants ; Family names ; Jewish names ; Kyperstein ; Last names Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Jews--Identity. 17 Oral History Leon Cooper was born in Norfolk, Virginia in 1927 and came to Lexington with his wife, Harriet, and two of his three children during the mid-twentieth century (the third was born in Lexington). He came to Lexington after serving in the Navy on two separate occasions. His enlistment came as a response to the dangers confronting Jewish people around the world and his desire to take part in the fight in WWII. He talks about the changes in his Jewish identity in the Navy and the community he felt with the other servicemen. After the Navy, he moved to Lexington to work for IBM. Cooper was one of the first engineers on the mag tapes electric typewriter—an innovation that opened the door to modern day word processing. The discussion of his career with IBM and with QED Medical—a medical technology company he created after retiring from IBM—leads into the discussion of his experiences in the Lexington Jewish community. He talks about his and his family’s move into the community, Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and their quick involvement with leadership roles and community events. His uplifting stories of community events such as the Yom Kippur Ball convey the unity everyone felt in this Jewish community. Personal encounters with anti-Semitism and negative race relations ground his stories in the reality of the time. In this interview with Janice Fernheimer, Cooper describes his life through the context of Jewish identity and belonging to a community. FERNHEIMER: Hello, my name is Janice Fernheimer. I' ; m Associate Professor of Writing, Rhetoric, and Digital Studies, and Director of Jewish Studies, and it is my great honor and pleasure to have the opportunity to spend the next couple of hours speaking with Leon Cooper as part of the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project. Uh, Leon, some of these questions are going to look familiar to you, uh, probably because I sent them to you before we started this interview, but um, I hope that you might be willing to state your name at birth for me, to get us started today? COOPER: Leon Milton Cooper. FERNHEIMER: And when and where were you born? COOPER: Norfolk, Virginia at the Protestant hospital, on August 27th, 1927. FERNHEIMER: And, what were your parents' ; names and occupations: COOPER: Isadore Cooper, my father, was a grocer. He had a grocery store as long as I can remember. My mother was Dora Cooper, and she was a housewife. In those days, women didn' ; t have many occupations, especially those coming from overseas. FERNHEIMER: Where were they born? COOPER: Excuse me? FERNHEIMER: Where were your parents born? I' ; m sorry, I' ; ll -- COOPER: My father was -- FERNHEIMER: -- speak up. COOPER: -- from a small town northeast of Kiev, in the Ukraine. My mother was in a small town north of Vilnius, in Lithuania, Roksik. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? COOPER: R-O-K-S-I-K. FERNHEIMER: Roksik. And when did they come to the United States? COOPER: They came separately. My father came, um, in about 1919. My mother, in about ' ; 20 or ' ; 21. FERNHEIMER: And, do you have siblings? COOPER: I do. FERNHEIMER: What are their names and ages relative to you? COOPER: I have a sister who' ; s nine years younger, Barbara Cooper. I had a brother that was a year and a half younger who died in March. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry. COOPER: Yeah, uh -- FERNHEIMER: Hard year. COOPER: It' ; s been a terrible year. FERNHEIMER: And what was his name? COOPER: Arnold. FERNHEIMER: Arnold. And, oh, what was the birth name of your wife, and the names of your children and grandchildren? COOPER: She, uh, was born Harriet Rudman. No middle name. In Winston-Salem, North Carolina. FERNHEIMER: Rudman. Was -- one -- COOPER: Rudman. R-U-D-M-A-N. FERNHEIMER: And, your children? COOPER: My children -- FERNHEIMER: ----(??)---- COOPER: -- are -- Lynn was my first born daughter. And she was born in January of ' ; 55. Then Ira was born in February of ' ; 57. And Andy in April of ' ; 59. FERNHEIMER: And is there anything unique we should know about your family background or your childhood years? COOPER: Well, both of my parents came from shtetls in eastern Europe, and all of their friends came from similar shtetls, and all of the relatives did. Actually, my first language was Yiddish, because nobody spoke anything else. And I' ; m really hard-pressed to figure out how I learned enough English to get into the first grade, but obviously I did, from somewhere. But it was an interesting, uh, community. They all had similar status in life, and they were all merchants of some sort, and scrap business, grocery business, restaurant business. And, uh, they shared, uh, all the good and bad times together. It was rather nice. FERNHEIMER: How did they get to Norfolk? COOPER: I think -- I was trying to find that out myself -- and I think my mother' ; s brother ended up in Norfolk, and he was responsible for bringing a lot of his family here. Other family settled up in, uh, Connecticut. FERNHEIMER: Ah. COOPER: Putnam, Connecticut. Got into the livestock business. Cattle. Which is what they did in, in Europe, surprising. I didn' ; t know any of our people were doing that, but -- FERNHEIMER: My family were live stockers, eh -- COOPER: Were they? FERNHEIMER: Well, that was what I was told. My father' ; s family, yeah. COOPER: Well -- FERNHEIMER: Also shocking to me. (laughs) COOPER: That' ; s my mother' ; s side. My father' ; s side, they were all in the grocery business. And they ended up in Norfolk because during hard times, when things got bad in Los Angeles or Chicago, wherever they were, my father would bring them to Norfolk and put them in business in a store. So we ended up with just about everybody in the Norfolk, Portsmouth, Tidewater area. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So most of your family was there growing up. Most of your family was there while you were growing up. COOPER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Um, and I understand that you were in the service. Was it the Navy? Is that correct? COOPER: It was. FERNHEIMER: And -- COOPER: I -- FERNHEIMER: -- when was that? COOPER: I enlisted in the Navy at 17, and, uh, served in ' ; 45 and ' ; 46. And the war ended in ' ; 45. And, uh, they let us out in time to go to college. So I got out in August of ' ; 46. Then I was called back in the service when I got out of college in 1950, and served two more years. And was released in active duty, uh, in 1952. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about your experiences being a Jewish person in the -- in the Navy? COOPER: Actually, it was fascinating. I, I, I had to give up kashrut, of course, and that was, um, kind of difficult to do. Not difficult, but strange. And there were still things I wouldn' ; t eat. I' ; d have to ask them what they were serving. But I got used to it. You had to. They -- nobody, uh -- FERNHEIMER: Where was your red line? What was it that you wouldn' ; t eat? COOPER: Pork. And shellfish. And milk with meat. That was it. Um, if they served a steak or a lamb chop, that -- no problem. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) That was all right. COOPER: That was okay. I, I ate that. I had no -- no qualms about that. But one time on the ship, at Yom Kippur, for break the fast, they had pork chops -- FERNHEIMER: (laughs) COOPER: -- which I thought was kind of, uh, not very nice. I had to pass those up for the vegetables. FERNHEIMER: I bet. Uh, did you -- were -- did you feel that your other service, uh, men treated you differently? COOPER: No. I thought it was, uh, they was fine. Uh, there were others on, uh, on shore or in -- uh, on the ship, and we sort of bonded together. We were at sea one Yom Kippur, and strangely enough, I was on an aircraft carrier, which is quite large. (coughs) Excuse me. They had matzas onboard. It would not surprise me that they had a siddur, but it did surprise me that they had matzas for the high holidays. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. COOPER: So in the ship' ; s library, we assembled, and there must have been 12, 15 of us for the Yom Kippur services. We were interrupted every once in a while from general quarters or something, but, uh, all in all, we, uh, we did our, our Yom Kippur. And then at Passover, the ship was in Greece. And I took a bunch of guys, the officers, into Athens, to shul. And they said, " ; Well what are we going to do here? We can' ; t speak Greek." ; I said, " ; But I know Yiddish." ; And I got there, and it was the first time, at that tender age of 25 or so, that I learned that all Jews don' ; t speak Yiddish. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) I was wondering about that. COOPER: They speak, uh, Ladino. Or Hebrew. And we were lost. Uh, there was one person who I could communicate with, but other than that, it was a big surprise. Because every Jew I ever knew up until then spoke Yiddish. And so, uh, it was an interesting experience, being in the Navy and being Jewish. FERNHEIMER: What -- what made you decide to enlist in the la-- in the Navy versus the Army -- COOPER: The war was going on. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. COOPER: And Hitler was treating us badly. And I needed my parents' ; permission, at 17, and surprisingly they f-- signed up for me to go, because they felt the same way I did. We had to get this thing over with, and I was just the guy to do it. So, uh, everybody I knew was going in the service. There wasn' ; t anybody -- FERNHEIMER: Yeah. COOPER: -- slacking back in those days. So me, and, and all of my classmates, uh, ended up in some service or another. I chose the Navy because I like, uh -- being in Norfolk, I was familiar with a lot of the Navy. And it turned out to be a good decision. I enjoyed it. And I stayed in the Reserves, uh, ' ; til I retired in about ' ; 68 -- FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: -- with the rank of Lieutenant Commander. So it served me well, and I served well. FERNHEIMER: Wow. I' ; m going to switch gears a little bit. It' ; s going to feel a little bit weird, um, to kind of fast forward a little bit in your life. Um, about this time last year, it was, Tom Eblen published a great article on his bo-- blog -- called " ; The Bluegrass and Beyond" ; about your involvement with the IBM team that developed word processing. And I understand that your job with IBM and the invention of the IBM Selectric, um, is what brought you here to Kentucky from Poughkeepsie in 1958? Is that correct? COOPER: Yes, but let me set the record straight. FERNHEIMER: Please do. COOPER: The Selectric was a marvelous, uh, product, and did amazingly well. My fingerprints are not on that product at all. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. COOPER: I had nothing to do with it. Word processing is another matter. I was the first engineer on the, uh, mag tapes electric typewriter, which kind of -- according to the writers in Jeopardy, which this was one of the questions -- it opened up the door for word processing for the rest of the world. I didn' ; t realize it was that significant. You want to talk about this some more? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Tell me -- can you back up and -- I know there was -- he wrote a, a good article, though I guess some of it was -- I' ; m glad we got the record straight here. (laughter) Um, but tell me a little bit about kind of those years in between, uh, your time in the -- the service -- and then you went to college. Where did you go to school? COOPER: Virginia Tech. Was VPI at the time. And I took mechanical engineering. Graduated in, um, the spring of 1950. And I was back in the Navy in August. Uh -- FERNHEIMER: And -- COOPER: -- and got out in August of ' ; 52. And, uh, a shipmate, uh, asked me one day up on the bridge in mid-watch, " ; What are you going to do when you get off the ship?" ; I said, " ; Well, I really don' ; t know." ; And he said, " ; Have you ever heard of International Business Machines?" ; I said, " ; What do they do?" ; He said, " ; They make punch card equipment." ; I said, " ; Wow, that' ; s right up my alley. I' ; m a mechanical engineer." ; So, uh, one day the ship was in port. I put on my dress blues, and walked into the IBM office. And I got invited for an interview up in Poughkeepsie. And the first question they asked me was, " ; How would you start and stop a magnetic tape in three milliseconds?" ; I said, " ; Wait a minute, what' ; s that got to do with punch card equipment?" ; Well, it turns out, that 1950 is when IBM was transitioning from the mechanical card punching to computers. It was a very exciting time to be there with them. Uh, and I liked to worked on an entire machine. The big computers were just too much. No one person understood -- well, I won' ; t say " ; no." ; Hardly anybody understood the whole workings of it. And I wanted a machine I could work on that, uh, I can understand it all. Well, we started talking about the mag tape and the typewriters. And my manager said, " ; What we need is a recording device that captures the keystroke so you can play it back." ; Now, up until that time, if a typist wanted to send a bunch of the same letter -- FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. COOPER: -- she -- and I say " ; she" ; because mostly they were women -- would take sheaf of, of, uh, paper, and slip carbons in between each, uh, every two of them. And then start typing. And a typist who could type 90 words a minute went down to 8 or 12, because if you hit the wrong key, you had to roll them out, and, and erase every copy. So simply enough, what they wanted was something were you could type the original message, and backspace, and hit the right key, and then throw away that piece of paper. Put in the carbon back, and type eight copies flawlessly. Well, that' ; s what we started making. And as we got further and further, we said, " ; Hey, y-- we can do a lot more than this." ; And as it turned out, we ended up with two tapes where you could take information off this tape and then do a lot of things which we do much easier today, and then put it on the second tape. And then, you had a composite tape with all the corrections and everything else. It turned out to be a reasonably good product. A $10,000 typewriter. And it sold fairly well. Uh, but as technology progressed, um, we more and more got sort of, uh, superseded. We were still using relays for storage, and, and a lot of the components from the old, uh, keypunch to do some of the work we wanted to do. So, that was a fascinating project. I' ; m glad I had a hand in it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, that' ; s -- it' ; s amazing. I mean, my background is in writing, rhetoric, and digital studies here, so it' ; s pretty exciting to hear that we have one of the founders of word processing right here -- COOPER: Well -- FERNHEIMER: -- in Lexington Jewish community. COOPER: It was not a solo operation. There was an army of us working -- working on that. I happened to be the first guy on the scene, and built the first plate model proving that you could record on a tape, and then play it back to the typewriter. FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: So, that was in 1957 or so. FERNHEIMER: How many people were on your team? COOPER: Well after they moved down here, there were, you know, three, four, eight, ten, twelve, and the more we got into doing all these fancy steps, uh, the more people we needed. And, uh, then, of course, getting it into production was a whole other matter. So it turned out to be, uh, quite a project. And I' ; m glad to be -- to have been a part of it. FERNHEIMER: When did you move from Poughkeepsie to Lexington? COOPER: Nineteen fifty-eight. March of ' ; 58. FERNHEIMER: And who came with you at the time? COOPER: We had -- of course my wife, and we had two children, Lynn and Ira. They were born in Poughkeepsie at Vassar Hospital. And, um, Andy was born here in Kentucky. We lived in Wappingers Falls. It' ; s a little bedroom community south of Poughkeepsie, like Georgetown is to Lexington. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And did you have any -- could you talk to me a little bit about your considerations in moving here, especially any discussions you might have had about Jewish life in Lexington at that time? COOPER: When I had the opportunity to come here, the first thing I looked for was a Conservative synagogue. If there were no -- if there was no Conservative synagogue, I would not have come here, because I thought that was a very important part of my life, our family life. So I came, and there was Ohabei Zion, which was, uh, great. And they had the temple Adath Israel, uh, Reform congregation. And, uh, the truth is, that was the most important thing I looked for. My wife and I are both from Virginia, so coming here from uh, Hudson Valley, was no big, uh, cultural shock for us. As a matter of fact, my wife never got warm in five and a half years in the Hudson Valley. So it was, uh, a welcome relief to come, come here. Uh, the town was about 90,000 when we came, and they were mostly merchants here. They owned the stores or worked in the stores, and their ports were -- FERNHEIMER: They, the Jewish people, or they -- COOPER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. COOPER: The Jewish stores. Meijers, and Hymson, and Kaufman, and Wilth (??), and Wild, and, and all of these people. Um, and they closed on Rosh Hashanah, and they closed on Yom Kippur. It was kind of nice. Uh, there were, of course, some, uh, professional people also. But until IBM came, and then the medical center opened up, uh, there was not any real influx of, uh, Jewish people to Lexington. FERNHEIMER: And when -- so, when you came -- that was -- most of Lexington' ; s downtown was mostly Jewish-owned shops at that time, right? COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Uh -- COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: M-- almost all of Main Street, um. So those merchants -- when you say -- i-- 90,000 -- that was the size of Lexington, of course, right? As a whole, not just the Jewish community? COOPER: No, the whole town. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. How big was the Jewish community then, would you say? Uh, how many -- COOPER: Two thousand. FERNHEIMER: Uh, so that is different from now. COOPER: Well, it' ; s about 2,500 isn' ; t it? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. It depends who you ask. Twenty-five hundred, thirty-five hundred. COOPER: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Bu-- COOPER: But the, the medical center brought a lot of Jewish couples to town. FERNHEIMER: When did that open? Do you recall? COOPER: Sixty-two. I -- believe I' ; m right. FERNHEIMER: I' ; ll -- COOPER: It was an interesting time, um, Jan. It opened at the same time that the Hadassah Hospital in -- at Ein Kerem -- opened in Jerusalem. My wife, and uh, Marilyn Mostik (??) were co-chairs of the Hadassah twinning group that twinned those two openings together. We had fancy dress balls, and dinners, and everything. And brought the director of the Hadassah Hospital over to Lexington. And, uh, it was quite a to-do. And that was about ' ; 62. The Chandler Medical Center. And a lot of faculty came who were Jewish, and boosted, our, uh, population considerably. FERNHEIMER: The numbers in the community. I' ; m going to go back to the word processing for just a minute, because I wonder, uh, uh, if you could tell me a little bit about the difference in Japanese and Chinese word processing? I have a note here to ask you about this. COOPER: Do you? FERNHEIMER: I do. And I -- I -- I have to confess, Beth helped ask some of these questions, and so I -- I was -- COOPER: Well Beth isn' ; t -- FERNHEIMER: -- hoping to get some -- to get some background on that from her, where this was coming from. So this is coming from Beth. I' ; m channeling her right now. COOPER: Well, I' ; m going to tell you -- FERNHEIMER: From Indonesia. COOPER: I' ; m going to tell you more than you need to know. But with the advent of the, uh, ink jet printer, we could print kanji characters. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. COOPER: Which are -- are different in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. But the ink jet didn' ; t care what it printed. It just printed a picture. And it could print a Japanese character as well as it could print a -- uh, alphanumeric character. So, I worked on a Japanese typewriter, which was a fascinating, uh, assignment. The problem wasn' ; t printing, because we could do that. The problem was getting information into it. There must be -- and I' ; m quoting you some old numbers from the ' ; 70s -- 10,000 kanji characters in the Japanese language. For any discipline, there' ; s probably 3,000. The typewriter that the Japanese had was called a wabin (??). And it was a tray of maybe 3,000 type slugs. And the operator moved that tray under a picker, and when she got the right character, she would -- again, I say she -- would push down and a finger would lift that character, wipe it past a ribbon, and bang it into the paper. And it was just, uh, curiously a very difficult thing to comprehend, how someone could learn where every character was on that thing. So our biggest problem was to take the 3,000 characters and compress them into a typewriter keyboard. I worked with the Human Factors Group in San Jose, run by, uh, Dick Hirsch, and we became quite friendly. I' ; d send him a box of matzos every Pesach so he could remember who he was. But anyway, what we did was to get a group of women who were born in Japan, educated in Japan, and fluent in the kanji language. And the biggest supply of them in this country is in the San Francisco Bay area. So going to San Jose w-- seemed like a reasonable thing to do. So we developed a code for several strokes to get a kanji character, and trained a bunch of these women to -- to do that. And they got pretty good. The problem with it was cultural. I don' ; t think the Japanese wanted us to tell them how to do this. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. COOPER: And we never got past the experimental stage with it. Uh, it gave me many trips to Japan, which was quite nice. And, uh, it was a fascinating project. FERNHEIMER: And when were you working on that? That was in the ' ; 60s? COOPER: The ' ; 70s. FERNHEIMER: The ' ; 70s. COOPER: Yeah, we didn' ; t have ink jet until then, and uh, it was in, uh, maybe the middle-to-latter ' ; 70s. Uh, a fascinating program. Now, Japanese of course, goes like Hebrew and Farsi and Arabic, right to left. Or, down the page. But that wasn' ; t a problem either. Although going right to left does pose problems, but maybe you don' ; t want to talk about that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, do you -- do you have experience working with, uh, other language, uh, typewriters? I mean, I -- my husband, Jim, has a collection of Arabic and Hebrew typewriters in his home office, in his office office here on campus. But if you have experience working them, I would like to hear. COOPER: Only -- only Japanese. Only Japanese. But the big problem -- and I talked to people who were working on them -- going from right to left works okay, except if you have something like a - a big number. Six thousand, eight hundred and fifty-two. You got to know what that whole number is -- FERNHEIMER: Right. COOPER: To start printing it. So we needed a little memory. And, uh, that was the big problem in doing that. But -- and I' ; m not even sure how they solved it. I didn' ; t get involved in the -- FERNHEIMER: Yeah. You were -- you retired shortly -- well, I don' ; t know about shortly -- but a few -- 10 years later, right? COOPER: Eighty-two. FERNHEIMER: In ' ; 82? Um -- COOPER: IBM had a very generous program to reduce the people on board. We learned " ; we." ; IBM learned lesson in the Hudson Valley -- we do not want to be the, uh, dominant financial factor in the area. We were up in the Hudson Valley, and when IBM took a hit, the whole place kind of got depressed. So they had a very sensible arrangement here, where if we got the -- a number -- like 5,000 -- we' ; d open up another location. Which we did, in Austin, Texas. And then they got up. And then we opened up Boulder, Colorado, to keep from taking too big a position in the finances of the region. It was a very, um, responsible thing to do. So why am I telling you this? FERNHEIMER: Oh, because I was going to -- I asked you -- well, I didn' ; t really ask you a question. Um, when you retired from IBM in 1982, you created a new company, QED Medical. And so I wanted you to tell me a little bit about that new company, and how it came to be, and your continued involvement with. COOPER: In the middle ' ; 60s, I had the job of running the exploratory engineering group in Lexington. Thomas J. Watson, Jr. issued a decree that anywhere there' ; s an engineering facility near a medical facility, we are to offer them all the assistance they needed at no cost. In the middle ' ; 60s, IBM had a Dr. Eisman who was in charge of surgery, and the VA had a doctor -- I think his name was Molette. These were both prolific inventors, and they took almost all of the effort of my department working on their medical devices. We actually built the artificial heart for a cow for one of the -- FERNHEIMER: This is at IBM or at QED? COOPER: IBM. This is back in the ' ; 60s. And we did a lot of fascinating things. And I became, uh, enamored with, uh, medical work. And then we had friends -- Marty and Marsha Blacker -- in town. He was a professor of, uh, neurosurgery at UK. And we were out to dinner with him one night, and he was telling me the problems they had -- or he had -- getting enough illumination in a s-- in a bore hole in a skull to do work. And I said it didn' ; t look like too serious a problem. So, um, another engineer and I put together a system, which wasn' ; t unique -- we just put together what we could find -- and built the unit for him that he really liked. And so when time came for me to think about what I was going to do when I got out of IBM, I thought, well that' ; s probably a pretty good business. So I -- I retired in August of ' ; 52, took Labor Day weekend off -- FERNHEIMER: Fifty-two or eighty-two? COOPER: Eighty-two. Excuse me. FERNHEIMER: Okay. I was going to say. COOPER: No, no, no. I' ; m confusing you. It' ; s ' ; 82. Took Labor Day weekend off, and um, rented a space, hired a bookkeeper and a shop foreman, and we started building these units. FERNHEIMER: So they were a special kind of lamp? I -- I just want to be clear on the -- COOPER: It' ; s a fiber optic. It' ; s a light source and a fiber optic hose that brought the light up to the, uh, to the headlight, which was situated in a -- in a headband. And then the light came between your eyes, off the tip of your nose, into whatever cavity the doctor was working on. And you could focus the light, or make it smaller, so that you didn' ; t get glare from the surrounding bone and tissue. And that was ' ; 82. And then in ' ; 85, my son decided he thought he wanted to get into the business. In ' ; 89 my daughter did, and in ' ; 95, my other son did. So I was able to supply my three children with, uh, with, uh, occupation, which was quite good. FERNHEIMER: And you still work there, yeah? COOPER: I still show up there. And the best thing I can do is stay out of their way, which they -- and so he has an office for me, and if he needs me, he' ; ll call me, but, uh, I let him run it, because it' ; s his business now, not mine. We do not run the same business formula, but I get out of his way. It' ; s the nicest thing I can do. My daughter, on the other hand, started another company, so she' ; s not involved with the two boys anymore. So -- FERNHEIMER: What did she start? Just out of curiosity. COOPER: A different company. She found a new maker, and she' ; s now in the business with them. Uh, I mean, the same business, but, uh, Ira and Andy are the two who, uh, are running the business that I started. FERNHEIMER: The QED. COOPER: Actually, yeah. The QED. FERNHEIMER: And what is -- what' ; s the name of Lynn' ; s company or just -- COOPER: BFW. FERNHEIMER: BFW. Well, you talked a little bit about your family' ; s involvement in the business, and I want to switch gears a bit, again. Of course, I -- we' ; re talking about gears -- I realize this is kind of a bad pun -- to talk about your involvement in the Lexington Jewish community. Uh, I know -- even though it' ; s well before I was here -- that ever since you first settled in Lexington that you' ; ve been involved in the local Jewish community. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about your experience getting settled in this community. COOPER: It was easy to do. There was a very friendly community, and both Harriet and I were interested in getting involved. And so, uh, we showed up at the synagogue, and within two years I was president, so, you know, it didn' ; t take much. And then Harriet turned out to be the membership chairman for Hadassah, Council of Jewish Women, and the synagogue at various times. So getting involved in the community was -- if you wanted to do it, it was an easy thing to do. FERNHEIMER: And can you tell me a little bit about -- you said the transition from Poughkeepsie wasn' ; t too tough. That it was kind of similar, or at least not so different here than it was in Virginia for both of you. COOPER: It was a smaller community, um, than it was in Tidewater, Virginia. But the people are friendly. There are a lot of people came down from New York who turned around and went right back. The cultural shock was something too much for their system. But for Harriet and for me, and it was coming home. Uh, we were familiar with, with, uh, the culture and, and the friendliness of the people. And we, uh, we had no trouble getting established. We were anxious to do what we could, and they were anxious to have someone come and do it, what we could do. So. And, and there wasn' ; t much different. Uh, up in, uh, the Hudson Valley, even though Poughkeepsie had a -- an Orthodox, and a Conservative, and a Reformed congregation, we still had to drive to Beacon to get our kosher meat. Uh, so that' ; s what we had to do here, too. FERNHEIMER: Where did -- I was -- I was going to ask about the kosher meat. Where did you get it at that time? COOPER: Louisville or Cincinnati. FERNHEIMER: There was no Trader Joe' ; s then. COOPER: There was nothing here. Empire chickens were frozen in the store, but other than that, there was no market, actually, and uh, it wasn' ; t around. But, we were used to that. FERNHEIMER: Was Guller' ; s still around at -- COOPER: Guller? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. COOPER: Yes. Yes. But not all that long. He wasn' ; t around. Well, I -- I may be talking out of turn here, because I don' ; t know exactly when he closed, but, uh -- FERNHEIMER: But do you remember his kosher butcher shop -- COOPER: I do. FERNHEIMER: -- when you first -- COOPER: I do. FERNHEIMER: -- moved to town. COOPER: Right there by Transy. Uh, I think it was Fourth and one of those streets that go the other way. Uh, yeah. We -- we did shop with him, too. But, uh, he closed up and moved, I guess with his daughter and son-in-law in Cincinnati. FERNHEIMER: And did a lot of, um, members of the, the synagogue at that time also keep kosher? I know -- COOPER: No, I wouldn' ; t say. FERNHEIMER: -- now it' ; s a pretty small percentage. COOPER: A lot of the original members that came from Europe certainly did. Uh, their children, uh, lot of them did or didn' ; t. But, uh, there wasn' ; t that much. I think there may be more now that there were -- was then. FERNHEIMER: Oh, really? COOPER: Yeah, it' ; s kind of neat. FERNHEIMER: Uh. I know you' ; ve been very involved in th-- as you' ; ve mentioned -- as president, and a bunch of different leadership roles -- at OZS, at the Federation, at B' ; nai Brith, and some other Israel-related activities. Can you tell me a little bit about the various leadership roles you' ; ve had, and, and maybe which ones you think were most important? COOPER: Well, of course I was president of the synagogue on two separate occasions. And I think that was very important. Uh, the UJA I think is extremely important. Back when I was a kid in high school, I used to follow my father around. This is before Israel. And he used to speak at the UJA rallies. FERNHEIMER: United Jewish Appeal, correct? COOPER: United Jewish Appeal. It' ; s called something else now. I can' ; t remember ----(??)---- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m just making sure. I' ; m talking -- you' ; re ta-- I think you' ; re talking about the thing I think you' ; re talking about. So, yes. COOPER: Yeah. United Jewish Appeal. And he would speak to them in Yiddish, and they were his tayere khaveyrim -- his dear friends. And they all shared his background. And I really loved listening to him talk -- talk to them. So I' ; ve been imbued with the UJA spirit from back in high school. And I think that' ; s an extremely important, uh, function that needs support. Bonds -- another matter. Uh, with a lot of help, we were able to raise quite a bit. Three -- four million dollars in, uh, Israeli bonds. Surprisingly, isn' ; t it? FERNHEIMER: When was this? COOPER: Well, they had a program that was fascinating. Uh, if you could get 20 people together, they would pay 150 bucks a year to the Federation, and we can borrow a half a million dollars from the bank. FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: And we did this, one, two, three, four, maybe five times. And, uh, after, um, five years, the bond matured. Or seven years, whichever. And um, the bank got its money back. Fifth Third was quite, um, cooperative in this venture. They fu-- furnished the money for quite a few of those -- FERNHEIMER: And -- COOPER: -- Israel bonds. FERNHEIMER: This was in the ' ; 60s, the ' ; 70s, the ' ; 80s? COOPER: No, no, no. It was probably in the early 2000s or -- FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. I didn' ; t realize it was that recent. COOPER: I could be confused, but I think that' ; s right. FERNHEIMER: I -- I actually didn' ; t know anything about -- that precedes my arriving here in Lexington, so, um. COOPER: Okay. And, uh, the U.S. government put a stop to that program. I think -- well, I don' ; t want to go into detail as to why, but we did quite well. We had temple people and shul people working together, and it was no trouble to amass 20 who wanted to participate in it. And that was the bonds, UJA, and the shul, and -- of course, B' ; nai Brith. I grew up in ACA and Hillel. And I had a fondness for the B' ; nai Brith organization. And, uh, I' ; m just happy to see that, uh, we had one here. Actually, it' ; s about 150 years old. At our birthday, we read minutes of the meetings during the Civil War -- FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: -- of the B' ; nai Brith Lodge here in Lexington. FERNHEIMER: You all still -- COOPER: Fascinating. FERNHEIMER: You still have those minutes? Who -- COOPER: I don' ; t. FERNHEIMER: They do, though. COOPER: I know who has them, yes. FERNHEIMER: Wh-- okay. We can talk about that later. COOPER: It' ; s at the temple. They' ; re at the temple. FERNHEIMER: Are they? Wow. Um, that' ; s pretty amazing. So what did they say? Those minutes from the Civil War? COOPER: Well, they were fascinating about, you know, we never seceded in, in, uh, Kentucky. And uh, they were talking about what' ; s going on, and what we could do, and raise money for the soldiers, and so forth. Uh, the other -- FERNHEIMER: Which soldiers? The Union or the Confederacy? COOPER: You know -- FERNHEIMER: Or both. COOPER: -- I don' ; t remember. Yeah, um, I don' ; t remember where our sympathies lied. Uh, lay. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. That' ; s a good question for my students. To go take a look. COOPER: They can go to the temple and get those minutes and find out. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um. So y-- you think those -- the, the work with the Israel bonds, and your role as president were some of the most important leaderships positions you had in the community. Why -- why is that? COOPER: Well, I haven' ; t done anything in the general community. I -- all my efforts have been in the Jewish community. And working for the shul was fine, but it' ; s a limited group of people. Local. And worthwhile. But the others involved the world. The, um, UJA, with the Jewish Agency, and HIAS, and, and, uh. Of course, bonds for Israel, uh. One of my trips over there, they showed us a road that they were building that, uh, we don' ; t know if it was our bonds, but they were built with bonds that were bought in this country, uh, for Israel. So yeah, I feel that' ; s a very important part of my life. FERNHEIMER: Um. You said -- you put all your community effort into the Jewish community. Why is that? COOPER: There are enough people to do everything else. We' ; ve got a limited population here, and I can' ; t spread myself too thin. And, uh, I' ; m not one of the pillars of the community -- of the general community -- so I put my effort where I think they' ; ll do the most good. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s a good -- good, uh -- I like the way you think about that. Um. One of the things that you did as part of that effort is to reestablish the chevra kadisha here. And that is the, um, for others who are watching this later, that is the, uh, committee that takes care of the dead. COOPER: Burial society. The first thing that a Jewish community did when they went into a place was to establish a burial society. And at the time, and I' ; m going back to the middle-to-late ' ; 80s, you -- are you familiar with what the chevra kadisha does? FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. They -- I -- you can -- but -- feel free to talk about it, um. COOPER: There are two groups. One prepares the body for burial, and the second group sits with the body from then until the funeral. So up until the middle ' ; 80s -- or ' ; 87, 6 -- if anyone wanted that service, they either had to take the body to Louisville, to the Meyers funeral home -- FERNHEIMER: Oh my. COOPER: -- or ask Meyers to send over a crew to Milwards or Kerr Brothers to take care of the body. It occurred to me -- and I don' ; t remember what position I was in, maybe it was religious chairman -- that this is foolish. We shouldn' ; t have to have people pay that extra fare to do this. There' ; s no reason why we can' ; t do it ourselves. Rabbi Smith was the rabbi of the shul then, and so I approached him, and he thought it was a marvelous idea, and we got together and started planning for putting a group together. And it' ; s not something you do right away. You got to study, and learn, and do things. We thought the best thing would be to hire -- not hire -- to recruit, enlist -- doctors and nurses because they' ; re used to dealing with -- with bodies. FERNHEIMER: Bodies. COOPER: So it wasn' ; t until the summer of 1990 that we were able to take care of our first body. Which we did. By that time, we had a group of men for the tahara, a group of women for the tahara, and, uh, a lineup of people who were willing to sit with the bodies. And they weren' ; t all doctors. It turns out that that' ; s a fallacy. It really doesn' ; t matter. The most enheartening thing about it is, that it is a good thing to do. And it was the response of the people. Uh, we never got a " ; I' ; m too tired," ; or " ; I don' ; t feel like it." ; If anybody didn' ; t come to do it, they had a very good reason for not doing it. And it made them feel good to perform this service. You know, it' ; s one of the services that they can' ; t repay you for -- FERNHEIMER: Right. COOPER: -- so that' ; s what makes it so important. And since that time, uh, we don' ; t record a number, but we take care of anybody in the whole community who wishes to have that service done. FERNHEIMER: So that' ; s one of the organizations that spans across the synagogue and the temple here in Lexington? COOPER: It' ; s a synagogue function, but we will -- FERNHEIMER: Prepare anybody. COOPER: -- service anybody in the community. We' ; ve done, uh, actually I can only think of one temple member. We did a -- a prisoner at the Federal Correction Institute who died and wanted to get shipped back to Israel. And we performed that tahara on this person. Uh, but most -- they' ; re all shul people. Men or women, and uh, it is a most, uh, serious business, and I' ; m really pleased that it' ; s going on. My son is now one of the co-chairs of the men' ; s tahara, and, and that pleases me. FERNHEIMER: What' ; s involved in the tahara process for folks who aren' ; t familiar with that, within the Jewish ritual? COOPER: You bathe the body, and then you purify the body with water. Just run a steady stream of water -- a certain amount, which is specified. And then we dress the body in, uh, shrouds. The clothes that the high priest would wear. And then we put the body in the casket. Close the lid. And except for family members who wish to see him, for all practical purposes, it' ; s closed. Sealed. We have three rules. You -- you must have a kosher casket, which means all wood, no metal. You' ; ve got to agree to the shroud. And you cannot have a public viewing of the body. FERNHEIMER: And the shroud, it' ; s all white, right? COOPER: Excuse me? FERNHEIMER: It' ; s all white? COOPER: Yes. Linen. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, and is this the -- the c-- the committee that does this, the burial society, is it connected to the Spinoza Burial Society that was initially part of the -- COOPER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. COOPER: It is not. The Spinoza Society runs the cemetery. FERNHEIMER: Okay. COOPER: And if you want to read some fascinating stuff, Mike Aideys (??) has a report of the Spinoza Society. The first cemetery that was bought and used was where, on Tate' ; s Creek, where Morton Junior High is now? FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. COOPER: That was the Jewish cemetery. And it turns out that they decided, after several years, it was too far from the center of town for the horse and buggy to take a coffin in the winter time. And that' ; s when they made arrangements to, uh, buy land from the Lexington Cemetery. They bought the first plot, which is now totally full. And then they bought a second lot, which is filled up. Most all of the people involved in the beginning lot, I could say all of them, were temple members. Because they were here first. The -- the, uh, Reform Jews from Germany and -- started the temple Adath Israel years before the Ohabei Zion crowd showed up. So they' ; re mostly, uh, people who, uh, belonged to the temple. And Mike has a report of the -- of that burial society. I don' ; t think it was called Spinoza then. It is now. And it -- the committee is temple and synagogue members combined. FERNHEIMER: Both. Hmm. That' ; s fascinating. COOPER: Yeah, it' ; s separate from the chevra kadisha. FERNHEIMER: Um, I' ; m going to come back to the family stuff again. I know we keep going back and forth between community and family, but I know that they' ; re very interconnected in a lot of ways. Um, what supports and challenges did you find trying to raise Jewish children in Lexington during the ' ; 50s, and the s-- from the ' ; 50s to the ' ; 70s while you were here? Of course this rings a very special note with me now, but. COOPER: That' ; s right. Well, this being the Bible Belt, the schools had no knowledge, or maybe interest, in doing anything different than Christmas and Easter. And I know the parents had a lot of trouble trying to introduce something for their children in the schools. I remember Harriet schlepping to school with a menorah every Hanukah to talk to the class about Hanukah, which everybody thought was the Jewish Christmas. And, um, functions, like the PTA or graduation, there were always prayers that, uh, are biased in one direction, uh, which you don' ; t seem to be able to get -- get rid of, or get away from. And, uh, it' ; s hard to instill a -- a universal feeling into these people. This is the Bible Belt, and, and it' ; s what they' ; re used to doing. And -- it used to make me very upset, and I' ; ve taken a -- a different tack. I -- I can' ; t afford to get all that worked up anymore. I don' ; t have any children there. Um, and I' ; m leaving it up to other people to try to get around that. I don' ; t think you saw anything in the papers about Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Pesach. It just don' ; t exist. FERNHEIMER: So, you don' ; t think things have -- I guess, let me try and ask a question instead of making a statement here. Um. Would you say things have changed at all, now, compared to when you were raising children? COOPER: Oh, I think they have. I think we have the Federation now, which we didn' ; t have then. And we have a -- I forgot what it' ; s called. A community action, or community something group. And it' ; s their charge to go to the school boards and tell them what days are the holidays -- the important holidays for the year. And I -- I think that has changed. And I think there are more kids in school now than there were when my kids were going. FERNHEIMER: Jewish kids, you mean? COOPER: Mm-hmm. Jewish kids. FERNHEIMER: Um. Can you tell me a little bit about the social events at OZ -- that took place at OZS in the ' ; 50s and ' ; 70s? I' ; m told there was a Yom Kippur ball? COOPER: Isn' ; t that amazing? I find trouble wrapping my head around that too. But after break the fast, we' ; d take our kids home with a babysitter. We had hired a band. And we' ; d go back to the shul and dance. And I can' ; t -- FERNHEIMER: After having just broken the fast? I' ; m impressed. COOPER: I am too, actually. There were several couples. Eddie and Ann Stein were the -- were the precipitators. And then Franklin and Marilyn Moslik, and Harriet and, and I were in the forefront of that. And we would do that. A-- and kids today shake their head. They just can' ; t believe we did that. But we did that. Um. FERNHEIMER: What kind of music was it? What kind of band? COOPER: Oh, it was four, five piece band. Um, and we decorated the hall. The real decoration was our matzos ball after Pesach. And, uh, we did that too. And then we had a theater group. FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: S-- the Center Players. And we put on a -- several plays. One of them was My Fair Sadie, and uh, actually, we had to run an extra week because more people wanted to see it than we could seat. FERNHEIMER: When was this? COOPER: Sixties. FERNHEIMER: The ' ; 60s. COOPER: And the early s-- maybe early ' ; 70s, yeah. We did Anything Goes, and we did, uh, well Marilyn wrote A Gold We Got, as something like Camelot, but it was Gold We Got. And we had a good time putting on plays. This was a synagogue function, not a community function. And it was, uh, it was fun. FERNHEIMER: Wow. What a different kind of -- I can' ; t even imagine that now. I mean I guess I can, but it' ; s so different from, uh -- COOPER: It is. But -- and I don' ; t know why we were so different than kids today. Yes, I guess I do. The wives work today, and, and they didn' ; t back then. They had all the time. Not that they were busy with kids and family. Of course, I' ; m not demeaning that. But, uh, they didn' ; t have jobs. The men worked, and the women did other things. But we enjoyed getting together and -- and doing those things. I can' ; t imagine it happening today either. It would be nice if we had a theater group again, or just did a play, would be interesting. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So you -- that' ; s some of the things that have changed in the Jewish community during the time that you' ; ve been here. Are there some other things that you might want to discuss? I don' ; t know if there are community practices, or different rabbis, or relations -- COOPER: Well -- FERNHEIMER: -- between the synagogue and the temple? I' ; ve just given you a whole slew of things. COOPER: I think one of the strengths of this community is the fact that we have a shul, and we have a temple. People who come here aren' ; t forced into a -- an institution that they don' ; t really want to belong to. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. COOPER: They do have a choice. And now, we have a Chabad. A Chabad rabbi has moved to town, and I think that' ; s a good -- a good move. Now, maybe some Orthodox people would consider accepting employment here in, in Lexington. We -- we never had that before. So I think that' ; s a strength of the community. I think the education committees of the two shul and temple are trying to at least get the older kids together so they can know each other. FERNHEIMER: Mm. COOPER: It' ; s a shame to have them grow up and -- and not know who the other kids are. There aren' ; t that many around. So, that depends a lot on who the rabbis are, as to how much they want to share. And I think we' ; re fortunate now that we both have rabbis that would be interested in that kind of, uh, arrangement. So maybe it will change even more than it has in the past. FERNHEIMER: What about Federation? You were around when Federation was formed, right? Because it -- it -- COOPER: Oh, yeah. FERNHEIMER: It wasn' ; t always here. COOPER: No, it wasn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: Um, do you want to ta-- COOPER: And it started with Camp Shalom. FERNHEIMER: Tell me a little bit about that. I' ; ve heard a lot about Camp Shalom and these kind of -- not -- kind of as an aside on another conversation, so I want to hear a little bit more about that. COOPER: Well, we had a bunch of kids here, and uh, we thought it would be a good idea at the time. FERNHEIMER: When was this? This was in the ' ; 60s or in the ' ; 70s? COOPER: It had to been in the ' ; 70s. I' ; m not good at that, but, uh -- FERNHEIMER: We' ; ll check. We' ; ll check. I know that they had -- there was some plaques up at Federation. I can look at the dates. COOPER: Interestingly enough, the woman who was the first head of the Camp Shalom is the mother of the new rabbi at the temple. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s what I' ; ve heard -- been told. Her name -- COOPER: Carol Wirtschafter was a driving force in, in, uh, creation of, uh, Camp Shalom, and the first director. And, um, the women ran it, and then we got them -- out of that came the, the Federation. And we used to have, uh, forum speakers come, and uh, speak in the community, uh, under the auspices of the Federation. FERNHEIMER: So Federation grew out of the formation of -- of Camp Shalom? How -- how did that -- COOPER: No, it just -- was -- at the same time. We just got that going, and then, uh, decided that maybe there were other things we want to do, other than that. So we needed money for Shalom, and needed money for, um, the forum series, and so forth, so we formed the Federation. And, uh, it' ; s still going. Of course, we had volunteer workers then. And now we, we pay professional people to run it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So when it -- when it first formed, it was the Central Kentucky -- tell me. Do you remember the name? COOPER: No. FERNHEIMER: A different name. I' ; ll look it up. Um. Another question, sort of back in the idea of these social circles. I know that -- I mean, just hearing you talk about these balls that you guys put on, um, makes it think that there were very strong social connections for you here in this community. Maybe, um, can you help me think out loud about the differences you experienced moving in -- in the circles? You sort of mentioned this before. The folks from New York who came down, and couldn' ; t take it, and so they moved back. And the folks who were born here, and, and grew up here, and stayed here, and the sort of Jewish community members who came in, and out, and maybe moved on. Um, what -- what was the difference between those different kinds of Jewish social circles here in town? COOPER: Well, I told you. My experience growing up has been everybody came from a shtetl somewhere. I' ; m the first generation born in this country, and most everybody I knew was the first born in this country. To come here and find fifth and sixth generation Americans, that bewildered me. I couldn' ; t imagine -- couldn' ; t imagine that. But there were. There were people who' ; d been here for a long time. And that was strange for me. But, um, the community was ready to accept us. We had no trouble. Either the temple or the shul, and, and, uh, I did not notice any -- anything worth talking about. We had some very good friends at the temple, and uh, I' ; m sure they had friends other than us at -- at the synagogue. But, uh, I -- I don' ; t know what I can tell you that would be enlightening. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um. What -- was there -- were there Yiddish speakers? Did you guys speak Yiddish ever at synagogue, or at temple, or in the shops when you were here in the early years? COOPER: Um, no. Uh, the older guys, when I came here, all spoke Yiddish. And then they were dying off. Um. Rafi Finkel, of course, is a Yiddish scholar. I never knew there was a Yiddish grammar until he told me that. I didn' ; t know that. I thought people just picked it up and spoke it. Oscar Haber was another one. A Holocaust survivor. And I used to take him places, and I loved talking to him in, in Yiddish, because the first thing you lose is vocabulary. And until you hear it and get the rhythm, you' ; ve kind of lost. But, speaking with him, uh, helped bring a lot of that back for me. But there isn' ; t a lot of Yiddish spoken here now. There -- there was a Yiddish speaker at the temple who, uh, gave a talk at the shul once, and I' ; m trying to think of his name. I can' ; t do it. And, uh, he was a scholar like, uh, Rafi, in -- in the Yiddish language. But nobody -- I -- I can' ; t find, uh, Yiddish speakers. FERNHEIMER: What -- this is moving in a little bit different direction. Um, what was the non-Jewish community' ; s reaction to your Jewishness here in Lexington? COOPER: Well, a lot of them had never seen one before, or known that they have seen one before, and were fascinated. One of the most successful things we did at the -- at the shul -- and this goes back to the ' ; 60s. In the circle where I live, there were enough Jewish families that we put together a holiday walking tour, where each home was decorated for a particular holiday. Judy and Sa-- Judy and Stanley Sacks were the first, and they were Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. We were Sukkos and Sukkos Torah. And then there was Hanukah, and then there was Pesach, and then -- at different homes were set up. And then the last home we served tea and cake. And that was highly successful. We got busloads of people from churches who came to do the tour. FERNHEIMER: So this was a tour that your neighborhood community put on for the non-Jewish community as an educational -- COOPER: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: -- uh, endeavor? COOPER: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Wow. How many years did you do this? COOPER: I don' ; t know we did it more than one. But there was some temple people involved, and synagogue people involved. Uh, and it was interesting how it worked out. We had just enough homes to do all the holidays for the year. FERNHEIMER: What year was this that you did it? COOPER: The ' ; 60s. I' ; ll have to go back and find the year. FERNHEIMER: And what prompted you to do this, uh, the neighborhood group? COOPER: What you asked, the question. To introduce the community to who we were. FERNHEIMER: Huh. COOPER: And we thought this would be a wonderful way to do it. Um, and they brought busloads of people from churches. We charged a dollar a head, to keep out the riffraff. It was uh, uh, very successful. And still, um, it' ; s a mystery to a lot of people what we do, and how we celebrate holidays, and so forth. But, uh, I have never encountered a serious problem with -- with our neighbors. FERNHEIMER: Have you had any -- or what have your experiences been with anti-Semitism? Uh. COOPER: Well, with a name like Cooper, and no distinguishing features, I was privy to a lot of conversations that I would not have heard otherwise. And, um, again, I learned to deal with them in a little less emotional way. But yeah, I witnessed it. At -- in high school, at Easter time, the Catholic kids from the Sacred Heart and other churches used to come looking for us, because -- I was told -- that all of their teachers came from Europe, where there was still that strong anti-Semitism, and they got them fired up at Easter, and they came running out in the street, and uh -- I' ; m back in Virginia now. And, uh, it -- we didn' ; t want to run into any of them at that time of year. FERNHEIMER: What would happen? I mean, what were they looking to do? COOPER: They' ; d beat you up. That' ; s all. They' ; d beat you up. Um, and it -- IBM, which was extremely, uh, generous for the holidays and everything -- I had no problem with the company. I ran across a few people in the company who I had unpleasantness with. And, uh, I guess everybody has these experiences, if you take them seriously. So, yeah, I' ; ve had my experiences with anti-Semitism, and I think -- I' ; m afraid -- that, uh, if the economy gets real bad, it' ; ll come back and haunt us again. Over here. Europe is another story. I think, uh, things are going to get worse in Europe. FERNHEIMER: Is there a particularly vivid incident that stands out in your mind, other than those sort of scary Easter Sundays in Virginia? COOPER: No, I don' ; t. I -- I' ; m -- nothing scarred me. Uh, the blacks, interestingly enough. Growing up in Virginia, uh, I took the, uh, Jim Crow laws as Gospel. You know, you -- they would drink in their own fountains. You know, black and white fountains. Come in the back door of theaters and sit in the balcony. And all of that. And, uh, I guess I' ; m ashamed to say it. I didn' ; t take much thought of that until I was 16 and got my driver' ; s license. And we had a maid -- years, since I was growing up -- who took care of us. And when I got my license, I was going to drive her home one day. And I opened up the front door to the car. FERNHEIMER: And she was African American, I -- I' ; m -- COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: -- gathering? COOPER: Annie was African American. And she said, " ; Are you crazy, boy?" ; I said, " ; Are you afraid to ride with me?" ; She said, " ; You know I can' ; t get in the front seat with you." ; In Virginia, there was a law. She couldn' ; t ride in the front seat of a car with me. So she had to sit in the back, and I had to drive her home. And then it occurred -- it still bothers me. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry. COOPER: That this is what they put up with. So, I think that hit me more than, uh, anti-Semitism. I -- I can handle that. FERNHEIMER: And so did that -- after that experience driving Annie home, did -- did that change the way you interacted with her? COOPER: Yeah, yeah. And I got involved in voting, and all that, and, uh, yeah. It did. I was immune to it before. Didn' ; t affect me one way or another. But it did then. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. That was a -- I mean, you' ; ve seen so many changes in your life. COOPER: You live long enough, you seem them all. FERNHEIMER: Um. Yeah. So did you notice that -- I mean, I don' ; t know. I -- this is a kind of off-the-cuff question, but -- here in Lexington, what were the relations like between the Jewish community and the African American community? Or were there intersections, um. You talked about the ' ; 50s and the ' ; 60s. That' ; s sort of a prime time in American history, when lots of change was happening. Uh, you think about the merchants downtown, um, in a position to either impact some of that change, or, or to not impact. COOPER: I wasn' ; t. I think the black community here behaved very responsibly. Much more so than, than we did. And, uh, working at IBM, I had friends that I wouldn' ; t have met otherwise. You know, one of the things, when IBM came here, they only had places in Poughkeepsie, and Endicott, New York, and they always had a country club. And when they came here, they couldn' ; t have a country club, because they would have had to let all the employees participate. And in the middle ' ; 50s, the blacks weren' ; t allowed in these places. And so IBM had to rethink that whole country club thing. FERNHEIMER: Uh, because -- because of the customs here in Kentucky? COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. So instead, they built the park that everybody could go to, but there was no country club like they had in the other two locations. This was their third location other than, uh, Poughkeepsie and Endicott. FERNHEIMER: So, up north, was everyone allowed to join the country clubs that IBM sponsored? Did they have African American emp-- employees? COOPER: Oh, yeah. And, oh yes. Yes. And here also. But they couldn' ; t all join the country club here. The blacks couldn' ; t play golf on the golf course, or any of that. FERNHEIMER: So IBM just side-stepped it by not having one at all? COOPER: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. Um. COOPER: Well, that' ; s all they could do. They weren' ; t going to get new laws passed in ' ; 55, 6. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Um. So many different things to cover. I know -- I want to come back a little bit to some of the family stuff. Um, how would you say your -- the Jewishness of you and your family is different from or similar to that of your parents' ; sense of Jewishness? COOPER: Oh, well. They came from shtetls. And, um, that was their whole life, because they had no life. And w-- we talk about the blacks over here. The Jews were no better over there in the -- well, they were a lot worse, actually. Lived in ghettos, and, and had no hope of ever getting out of them. And so religion was the big thing in their lives. And like with my father. He -- his father traveled around teaching Hebrew, and, uh, he went -- he had a good education in his cheder, his Hebrew school. Um, and um, my mother' ; s family was also extremely devout. And coming here was a change for them. Far bigger change than my moving here from up north. Uh, they had to adopt to working on Saturdays, which was pretty hard to take. Uh, but they had to do it. And it -- it gave them a lot of -- lot of problems. You could either not do it, or do it and, uh, feel terrible about it, or just give in and do it. But if you own a store -- a grocery store -- you can' ; t close on Saturday. And so my father did -- opened -- and, uh, there was a -- it was quite different. Um. To tell you the truth, though, I think I observe more holidays better than they did. Um, our seders. One of the things when we built our house was the dining room had to open into the living room so we could have a long seder table. And uh, I don' ; t remember seders as full as when we -- we had them. Uh, so we -- we do things better than they did. And I don' ; t know if they were looking out for their kids, to make us more American, or what they were doing, but -- I, um, I think our family was, uh, did well, compared to them, in this country. FERNHEIMER: In terms of maintaining Jewish identity? COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Does that -- COOPER: Yes. Uh, they didn' ; t have an identity problem over there. I mean, everybody -- they were told who they were. And told what they could do and what they couldn' ; t do. Where they had to live. The Pale of Settlement and all that stuff. Uh. Yeah, I think we do better -- that we did better than they did, as far as observing the holidays. FERNHEIMER: And, is there a particular holiday that you have a , a, a good memory or a vivid memory of how your family would, uh, celebrate, that you' ; d like to share? COOPER: Grow-- growing up, you mean? FERNHEIMER: Either growing up or the family you' ; ve created. COOPER: To tell you the truth, I, I, I don' ; t, except family get-togethers. There were -- every Sunday, we would either go to their, uh -- FERNHEIMER: Your parents? COOPER: -- famil-- my -- with my parents. When I was growing up. We' ; d either go to the house of his sisters and brothers, or they would come to our house. And it was these family gatherings that I have more fond memories of than, than the holidays. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about one of those that stands out. COOPER: Well, every Sunday we would go either -- they lived across Elizabeth River in Portsmouth. And we' ; d go back and forth. And we' ; d eat all this cholesterol-inducing food. FERNHEIMER: Like what? COOPER: Like creamed herring. And, and cream sauce. And, uh, pickled herring. And, uh, blintzes with sour cream, and all milchik meals. But they were loaded with, uh, cholesterol stuff. They were very good. And, uh, I have fond memories of that -- playing with my cousins -- than I do of, uh, of holiday celebrations. And Friday nights, of course, at home. We' ; d have, uh, roast chicken almost every Friday night, and potatoes in the meal. Uh, and that was -- that was nice. FERNHEIMER: And what about your children c-- in, in comparison to your sense of Jewishness. COOPER: Well, interestingly enough, two of my -- my two boys married converts who keep kosher homes. My daughter doesn' ; t. Uh, and I think, uh, I think they' ; ll be a step away than I was with them. It seems to be the way it goes. I would love to see it go up, but I don' ; t have any hopes of that. My, uh, oldest granddaughter just made me a great-granddaddy Wednesday. FERNHEIMER: Aw, congratulations. COOPER: Thank you. FERNHEIMER: Mazel tov. COOPER: And she' ; s decided to have the kid circumcised in the hospital, which kind of disturbs me, but I can' ; t get involved in that. So I -- I don' ; t think it' ; s going to continue much past my kids, unfortunately. FERNHEIMER: Why do you think that is? COOPER: I think they get further away from it. That it doesn' ; t mean as much to them. And they get involved in the general community, and uh, and it just isn' ; t that important. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. How would you say where you grew up or and have lived your adult life here in Kentucky has affected the way that you think about Judaism or your relationship with Judaism? COOPER: Growing up in Kentucky, you ques-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m sorry. Growing up in Virginia, but living your adult life here in Kentucky. Both places that most people would consider part of the south. COOPER: Yeah. The nice thing about my growing up, and here I' ; m going to go counter to -- to intuition. I was happy that the -- the gentiles had no use for us in those days. I mean, I didn' ; t need them. They didn' ; t need me. But I knew every girl from Baltimore to Jacksonville -- Jewish girl. Because we used to go to AZA conventions, and they' ; d all come, because we didn' ; t go to proms. We -- we didn' ; t have any reason to go to proms. We didn' ; t date anybody else. We just dated each other, and then times when there were so few, you would grab an opportunity. ACA had, uh -- are you familiar with the AZA? FERNHEIMER: AZA is Aleph Zadik Aleph, right? COOPER: Yeah, and it' ; s -- FERNHEIMER: And it' ; s a Jewish fraternal organization? COOPER: Yeah. High school. And, and we used to have parties. And we' ; d go from Baltimore down to -- to, uh, well, maybe not Jacksonville, but Charleston. And, um, I thought it was great. I -- I didn' ; t need anything more than that. So that worked fine for me. Now, it doesn' ; t matter. It doesn' ; t seem to be that important to be with your own pe-- and maybe that' ; s a good thing. I -- I don' ; t happen to think so, but I don' ; t run the world. FERNHEIMER: Is that how you met Harriet? Did you meet her through AZA? COOPER: No. How I met Harriet was different than that. FERNHEIMER: If you feel comfortable, I would love to hear it. If you don' ; t feel comfortable, I understand. COOPER: Well, if we have time, I' ; ll be happy to tell you about it. FERNHEIMER: We' ; ve got some time. COOPER: Harriet and I went to school 12 miles apart for three years and never met. FERNHEIMER: In Virginia? COOPER: Never met. ' ; Til my senior year. She went to Radford, which was down the road from Virginia Tech. And my senior year, we were both out with someone, and my date introduced me to Harriet. And I knew her date, because he was from Tech. And then I graduated. I got a job with Dupont. Dupont sent me to their nylon plant in Martinsville, Virginia. Which happened to be where Harriet lived. The first day -- this is July of 1950. So I walk down the street into Globman' ; s Department Store, and I recognized her working behind the jewelry counter. She was home for the summer from school. This -- she was a year behind me. And she was working at the department store. And I saw her and I remembered meeting her, which surprised her, because I' ; m not very good at that. And this was July of ' ; 50. And we started hanging around together. And we only had a month, because in August I was back in the Navy. And the Navy sent me to the Naval Air Station in Norfolk. And uh, that was it. And then on homecoming weekend in October, I, uh, I got a three-day leave and drove to her school, and took her to Blacksburg, where Tech was. And we spent the weekend at the -- my homecoming, uh, 1950. And then I went back in the Navy, and uh, I don' ; t think I saw her again. The Navy sent me out to California, and on the way back, in May, I stopped at her school and have her a ring. And we were married in August. That' ; s how that happened. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s a nice story. COOPER: So I never knew her until I went to work in Martinsville for one month. So we didn' ; t spend much time together before we got married. FERNHEIMER: And how long were you married? COOPER: Sixty-three years. So it worked. Very well, actually. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. That' ; s a nice story. COOPER: Yeah, I think about it a lot. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Was there anything else that I haven' ; t asked you that you would like to share that you think would be important to talk about in terms of anything, really. In terms of your -- COOPER: Well, you -- FERNHEIMER: -- involvement with word processing, or the Jewish community, or, um, anything. COOPER: You seem to have covered it quite well. FERNHEIMER: Um, we' ; ve still got a little bit of time, so I wanted to ask you that. COOPER: Well, ask me a question. FERNHEIMER: Is there anything that you would offer as advice to Jewish students here at UK, or Jewish students -- Jewish -- Jewish people here in Kentucky, now, the next generation, uh? COOPER: S-- FERNHEIMER: Advice, or caveats, or, I don' ; t know. COOPER: Well, I don' ; t either. I -- I -- I think this is a wonderful place to bring up a family. Um, what I missed here was water. Growing up in, uh, Tidewater, Virginia, we had the ocean, the bay, the river, and here all we got' ; s this little pond behind my house. And, um, I miss -- I miss that. But as -- other than that, this is a -- it' ; s a very nice community to grow up in. I' ; m happy. I' ; m glad I didn' ; t pursue any other, uh. I had a chance to move with IBM somewhere else. And it could have been a good move, professionally. And I chose not to do it. And I have no regrets about not doing it. Um, I was asked to go back up north to the headquarters, and I would not ask Harriet to move back up north. She just did not care for it at all. So that sort of cemented my position with the company, and, uh, with this place. It' ; s good that I didn' ; t go anywhere. My mother came and lived her for four years. She died here, at our house, in ' ; 68. Um. I think it' ; s only going to get better because we' ; ll have more people at the medical center, and uh, uh it' ; s just going to be a better place. I think the two rabbis are getting along beautifully. I -- it' ; s a very nice Chabad rabbi who showed up, so I think that' ; s going to enhance the community. So I' ; m looking forward to, uh, things getting better. FERNHEIMER: What do you think some of the challenges the Jewish community will face in the future, uh, might be, or are? COOPER: Well, I think -- more than this community, you mean? Israel is going to be in deep -- more trouble -- unless they can settle something down. You know, it' ; s interesting that most of the turmoil going over there now has nothing to do with Israel. It' ; s Syria, and ISIS, and these other people who are fighting each other, and, and Israel' ; s out of the picture. But I -- I think Israel' ; s in -- in, uh, in danger. And I -- and I hope they' ; re going to be smart enough to side -- side-step it. I think, uh, Europe is going to -- to turn again. With all the Muslims coming in, it got to be not good for the Jewish population. I mean, 800,000 more in, uh, Germany, um, and they' ; re having trouble in Germany already. And even surprisingly Scandinavia is having trouble. It, um, is not a good -- not a good scene. And I -- and I don' ; t know what we can do -- FERNHEIMER: " ; We" ; -- who' ; s -- COOPER: -- to make it any better. FERNHEIMER: Who' ; s the " ; we" ; there? COOPER: The rest of the -- of the Jewish community in -- around the world. I don' ; t know what we can do to make it better, unless help all of them go to Israel, uh, leave. I know a lot of them have left France and gone, and I don' ; t understand how people can go back to Germany, but apparently they have quite a Jewish population in Germany. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. COOPER: And, um, I think things are not going to get better for them over there. I don' ; t see them getting worse over here. I think we' ; re -- established ourselves quite, quite well. And, uh -- FERNHEIMER: Here in the U.S. broadly, or here specifically in -- COOPER: U.S. -- FERNHEIMER: -- Kentucky? COOPER: U.S. U.S. Kentucky' ; s a different story. We -- we' ; re -- we' ; re not a blip on the radar here at all. You get outside of Louisville and Lexington, and there' ; s nothing. There' ; s nothing Jewish outside of Louisville and Lexington. We' ; ve got the only synagogues between Huntington, and Louisville, and Cincinnati, and Knoxville. FERNHEIMER: There are synagogues. They' ; re just not all operating. COOPER: Well, they' ; re not. I guess that' ; s what I' ; m talking about. But I think in -- in the country, uh, we' ; ve got people in good positions, and they' ; re behaving responsibly, and we' ; ve got nothing to -- to be ashamed of. FERNHEIMER: Uh, and you' ; re talking -- the " ; we" ; there is the Jewish-American community? COOPER: Yeah. Yes. FERNHEIMER: All right. Well, if you -- if there' ; s nothing else you' ; d like to add, Leon, I just want to thank you for spending an afternoon with me, uh -- COOPER: Well -- FERNHEIMER: -- talking about a lot of different things. And I hope it will be okay. I might have some students who want to follow-up with you about some of the things we talked about, and we said, " ; Oh, I can' ; t remember the date," ; or this or that. Uh, if that would be okay. COOPER: I' ; m not going anywhere. I' ; ll be here. FERNHEIMER: That' ; d be great. So. COOPER: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you. COOPER: Well, thank you. I hope your project goes well. FERNHEIMER: I -- we do, too. I -- this is a great contribution, so I really appreciate it. I knew I' ; d forget something. I' ; m glad we' ; re able to get back on here. Leon, can you tell me if Cooper was shortened, and if -- if so, when? And by whom? COOPER: My father wasn' ; t the first in his family to come over here. He had, uh, two sisters and a brother. And they shortened the name from Kyperstein to Cooper. He had an uncle in Philadelphia who kept Kyperstein. But when he came over, um, he came over as, uh, Cooper. My mother' ; s family name was Abramovitz. FERNHEIMER: How did they get from Abramovitz to -- COOPER: A -- Aframowitz. FERNHEIMER: Aframowitz to Rudman? COOPER: Oh, no. Not my -- I' ; m talking about my mother, not my wife. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry. COOPER: My mother. FERNHEIMER: And did they shorten that, also? COOPER: To Aframe. A-F-R-A-M-E. FERNHEIMER: Okay. COOPER: And their -- that became Aframe. And, uh, Kyperstein became, uh, Cooper. The last people to come over on my father' ; s side was his mother. My only grandparent to come over. And his two younger sisters. They came over as Kyperstein. FERNHEIMER: And how was Kyperstein spelled? Was it with a " ; C" ; also? COOPER: It was a Cyrillic spelling. K-Y-P-E-R. You know, that sort of thing. I happened to go to the Department of Interior where they have a floor full of, uh, reels of, uh, microfiche. Of every ship that ever landed. And everybody that was ever on it. And one of my aunts wrote a story of coming over here, and they had the second sailing of the Aquitania. So I went there, and I said, " ; Do you have a tape of the second sailing of the Aquitania?" ; And she did. And I put it on the machine, and I crank through, and there' ; s my bubbe and my two aunts. And they came under Kyperstein. Uh, that was interesting. I printed that out. That' ; s the only record I have of my, uh, parents coming over. FERNHEIMER: Wow. That' ; s pretty cool. And when did you find those records? COOPER: This had to be back in the ' ; 90s. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Thanks for allowing us to get that on the record. COOPER: Okay. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections and Digital Programs, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh434_jk010_cooper_ohm.xml 2015oh434_jk010_cooper_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh434_jk010_cooper_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leon Cooper, October 16, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Leon Cooper was born in Norfolk, Virginia in 1927 and came to Lexington with his wife, Harriet, and two of his three children during the mid-twentieth century (the third was born in Lexington). He came to Lexington after serving in the Navy on two separate occasions. His enlistment came as a response to the dangers confronting Jewish people around the world and his desire to take part in the fight in WWII. He talks about the changes in his Jewish identity in the Navy and the community he felt with the other servicemen. After the Navy, he moved to Lexington to work for IBM. Cooper was one of the first engineers on the mag tapes electric typewriter—an innovation that opened the door to modern day word processing. The discussion of his career with IBM and with QED Medical—a medical technology company he created after retiring from IBM—leads into the discussion of his experiences in the Lexington Jewish community. He talks about his and his family’s move into the community, Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and their quick involvement with leadership roles and community events. His uplifting stories of community events such as the Yom Kippur Ball convey the unity everyone felt in this Jewish community. Personal encounters with anti-Semitism and negative race relations ground his stories in the reality of the time. In this interview with Janice Fernheimer, Cooper describes his life through the context of Jewish identity and belonging to a community.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2015oh434_jk010
Subject
The topic of the resource
Genealogy
Discrimination
United States. Navy.
United States. Navy--Military life
World War, 1939-1945--Veterans.
Engineering
Education
Technological innovations
International Business Machines Corporation.
Lexington (Ky.)
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
Jewish businesspeople
Religion
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Jews--Identity.
Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/8fb2fcd3f6d0f746fdf48b8513399c69.jpeg
bc918cef6c12680c9459256d53b03088
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lee Shai Weissbach
Interview Keyword
Lexington (Ky.)
Jews--Identity.
Religion
Worship (Judaism)
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh433_jk009 Interview with Lee Shai Weissbach, October 20, 2015 2015oh433_jk009 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Family histories. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Universities and colleges--Research University of Louisville Universities and colleges--Faculty. Judaism. Jewish families. Immigrants Emigration and immigration. Lexington (Ky.) Jews--Identity. Religion Worship (Judaism) Lee Shai Weissbach Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|21(11)|52(6)|75(9)|93(4)|110(5)|134(5)|155(10)|186(7)|199(6)|210(2)|230(6)|257(12)|273(1)|300(7)|318(10)|331(5)|356(3)|371(14)|388(6)|407(12)|422(13)|443(14)|455(1)|475(3)|504(5)|517(11)|528(11)|540(10)|552(6)|563(7)|585(13)|616(8)|648(5)|668(13)|697(8)|720(3)|740(4)|751(9)|765(1)|779(1)|789(11)|804(9)|815(11)|843(6)|861(4)|887(12)|905(6)|922(15)|938(4)|950(9)|966(2)|982(3)|999(6)|1009(9)|1020(2)|1036(9)|1052(6)|1064(2)|1100(9)|1111(6)|1123(9)|1145(5)|1183(1)|1203(14)|1222(4)|1233(4)|1246(5)|1261(4)|1281(3)|1298(6)|1328(3)|1345(11)|1359(3)|1398(6)|1412(7)|1423(6)|1454(9)|1470(14)|1485(13)|1505(6)|1522(9)|1537(4)|1558(2)|1584(3)|1598(7)|1610(5)|1624(14)|1640(3)|1661(4)|1681(8)|1697(10)|1725(6)|1737(5)|1747(16)|1767(8)|1787(14)|1804(7)|1816(11)|1832(11)|1862(9)|1893(4)|1912(1)|1923(10)|1937(12)|1965(2)|1982(2)|1998(3)|2015(7) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253323862" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family and upbringing So my name is Janice W. Fernheimer. Weissbach explains how he was born in pre-state Palestine on May 14th of 1947. His father was born in Alexandria, Egypt and his mother in Norfolk, Virginia. They met in Tel Aviv, Israel in the 1930s. They immigrated to the United States in 1952 and settled down in Cincinnati, Ohio. His parents opened the Yavneh Day School which was the community Hebrew school of Cincinnati where they both taught Hebrew. Alexandria (Egypt) ; American Express ; Ashkenazi ; Balfour Declaration ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Galil ; Haifa ; Hebrew ; Hebrew Speaking Society ; Israel ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Maurice Weissbach ; Miriam Weissbach ; New York (N.Y.) ; Norfolk (Va.) ; Observant ; Orthodox Judaism ; Palestine ; Pogroms ; Romania ; Tel Aviv ; University of Haifa ; World War II ; Yavneh Day School ; Yodfat Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish families. 32.7940463, 34.98957100000007 17 Haifa, Israel 825 Immediate family and arrival in Louisville, Kentucky I'm gonna ask you more questions about that memoir in a little bit-- Weissbach's wife, Sharon Goller (later Sharon Weissbach) was born in Lexington, Kentucky where her grandfather worked as a kosher butcher. Her family moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she met Lee Shai while they were members of the Habonim youth group. The Habonim youth group was a Labor Zionist Youth Group. Their involvement in the youth group put them together for many years as youth before they began dating just before college. They both attended the University of Cincinnati as undergraduates and graduated together. They adopted two children, Jacob Zvi Weissbach and Maya Weissbach. Jacob works at the National Museum of American Jewish History in Philadelphia and Maya works at the Anthropologie store in Louisville. Lee Shai and Sharon both finished their PhDs in Boston. Lee Shai began looking for work at universities with active Jewish communities when he was offered a job at the University of Louisville. Anthropologie Store ; Boston (Mass.) ; Boston College ; Brandeis University ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Conservative Movement ; Habonim ; Indiana University ; Jacob Zvi ; Kosher butchers ; Labor Zionist youth group ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Maya Weissbach ; National Museum of American Jewish History ; Nativ College Leadership Program ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; School of the Art Institute of Chicago ; Sharon Goller ; Three Rivers (Mich.) ; University of Louisville ; University of Pittsburgh ; Wapakoneta (Ohio) ; Zvi Hirsch Education ; Employment ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 39.1031182, -84.51201960000003 17 Cincinnati, Ohio 1469 Jewish life and the Jewish Studies program at the University of Louisville Yeah. So, wow, 37 years is a long time to spend-- Weissbach discusses how he was hired at the University of Louisville to fill a French history teaching position. He had written his doctoral dissertation on child labor in nineteenth century France. He also began teaching Jewish history courses because he had an interest in it from his previous research in France. He eventually was given a state grant to hire someone in a Jewish Studies full-time position. One problem he discusses is the instability with a Hebrew language professor at the university. He discusses the Jewish community of Louisville and how they have maintained Jewish programming despite harder financial times with the Jewish Community Center and Jewish Federation in Louisville. He then describes the Jewish student life at the University of Louisville, which has always been small, and their Hillel program. American Jewish history ; Bucks for Brains Program ; Chabad ; Conservative Temple ; Hebrew language course ; Hillel ; Jewish Community Center ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Jewish history ; Jewish Studies ; Louisville Jewish students ; Natalie Polzer ; Reform Temple ; Soviet Jewish Immigration ; University of Louisville College environment ; College students--Religious life ; College teachers--Social conditions ; Judaism. ; Universities and colleges--Faculty. ; University of Louisville 38.21504520000001, -85.76015569999998 17 University of Louisville 2135 Working in the field of Jewish history I know that you--you've talked a li--a bit about your graduate work at Harvard, in French history, and in fact, that's how you got the job at University of Louisville. Weissbach discusses how his research into French Jewish history became very comparative to research into small town Jewish communities in the United States. This revelation led him to finding communities with approximately 1000 Jews but he could not find census data that tracked people by religion. In order to find these communities he first set out to find all of the synagogues of Kentucky which led to his book " ; Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History" ; in 1995. He later wrote the book " ; Jewish Life in Small-Town America" ; which focused on the case of the Jewish community in Lexington, Kentucky. " ; Jewish Life in Small-Town America" ; ; " ; Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History" ; ; AJS Review ; Census ; French Jewish history ; Harvard ; Kentucky Humanities Council ; Small-town Jews ; Synagogue ; University of Louisville Emigration and immigration. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Universities and colleges--Research 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky 2741 Researching small-town Kentucky Jewish communities All right. I want to pause a minute to-- Weissbach discusses the various Jewish communities in Kentucky outside of Louisville and Lexington that he wrote about in his book " ; Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History." ; The Jewish communities typically followed migration patterns into the state, with many of the first appearing along the Ohio River. The small Jewish communities of Kentucky adapted their own identities and often had to compromise between different degrees of observance in Judaism to exist. These various Jewish communities existed in the Kentucky cities listed in the keywords below. " ; Jewish Louisville: Portrait of a Community" ; ; Ashland (Ky.) ; B'nai B'rith ; Carly Ely ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Colorado Springs (Colo.) ; Covington (Ky.) ; East European Jews ; German Jews ; Greater Cincinnati Area ; Henderson (Ky.) ; Hopkinsville (Ky.) ; Jewish communities in Kentucky ; Jewish Federation ; Journal of American Jewish History ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Locust Grove Historic Home ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Main Street Merchants ; Newport (Ky.) ; Ohio River ; Orthodox Judaism ; Owensboro (Ky.) ; Paducah (Ky.) ; Pittsburgh (Penn.) ; Reform Judaism ; Southern Illinois Jewish Federation ; synagogue ; Yiddish ; Yud Schwartz Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Universities and colleges--Research ; Worship (Judaism) 37.0833893, -88.60004779999997 17 Paducah, Kentucky 3732 Kentucky Judaism Um, but, uh, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about--uh, you've mentioned some of this, you know, stability, and--and in--and mobility, but if there are some other key components to the narratives that shape the way that Kentucky Jews either think about themselves, or that others think about the narrative of-- Weissbach discusses some of the factors that impacted Kentucky Judaism over time. These factors include proximity to a major city, the Civil war, Sephardim, degree of observance, and various businesses. Weissbach also makes an attempt to help Dr. Fernheimer with the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project by suggesting names of people for her to interview in the future. He also discusses how Jews began to become involved in Kentucky politics. Anshei Sfard (Louisville, synagogue) ; Auerbach ; Bernheim ; Cincinnati Metropolitan Area ; Conservative Judaism ; Covington (Ky.) ; East European Jews ; German Jews ; Hasidic Jews ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Hyman Family ; Institute for Southern Jewish Life ; International Business Machines (IBM) ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish Confederates ; Jewish Federation ; Kentucky Jews during the Civil War ; Kentucky Jews in politics ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Main Street Merchants ; Mansbach family ; Marnie Davis ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Morris Weintraub ; Northern Kentucky ; Paducah (Ky.) ; Rabbis ; Reform Judaism ; Rhodes (Spain) ; Sephardic Jews ; Shapira Family ; Shofar (journal) ; Simcha Kling ; The Union ; World War II Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Politics and government ; Religion ; Religion and politics ; Worship (Judaism) 38.2262282, -85.6483404 17 Anshei Sfard Synagogue in Louisville, Kentucky 4996 Personal and Jewish community life Um, but it's interesting that you start talking about your own, uh, personal involvement in the community. And actually, that's sort of where I'd like to go next. Weissbach discusses the impact Kentucky Judaism had on his home family life, which he said was very little. He says the congregation at synagogue has been his and his wife's Jewish anchor, while the Jewish community found at Jewish summer camps served as such for his kids. Weissbach and his family have attended both Adath Jeshurun and Keneseth Israel synagogues off and on during the time that they have lived in Louisville. He talks about the disappearance of kosher butchers, the closing of the Jewish day school, and the contemplated merger of the two conservative synagogues. He also discusses Jewish programming through the Jewish community center and the Jewish studies department at the University of Louisville. Adath Jeshurun Synagogue (Louisville, Ky.) ; Camp Ramah ; Chavurah movement ; Crichton ; Eliahu Academy ; Eliahu Spivak ; Etgar Keret ; Gary Zola ; Highlands (Louisville, Ky.) ; Jewish Community Center ; Jewish counterculture ; Jewish Film Festival ; Jewish programming ; Jewish Studies Program ; Kenesseth Israel Synagogue (Louisville, Ky.) ; Levine family ; Strathmore neighborhood ; United Synagogue Youth Movement ; Vaad kashrut Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.224086, -85.67484000000002 17 Keneseth Israel Synagogue in Louisville, Kentucky 6040 Family's Jewish observance So I, I wonder, uh, can you talk a little bit about--these might seem like kind of strangely personal questions after these large questions-- Weissbach discusses how his family has progressively become less observant with his children. Weissbach says he will not do any casual shopping on Shabbat but will spend money if necessary to enjoy the day of Shabbat such as paying an admission fee to the zoo. His son will spend money on Shabbat but still observes, while his daughter rarely will observe Shabbat at all. American Jewish history ; Jewish observance ; Jewish programs ; Kentucky Jewish history ; Lee Shai Weissbach ; Rosh Hashanah ; Seder ; Shabbat ; University of Kentucky ; University of Louisville Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 Oral History Weissbach explains how he was born in pre-state Palestine in 1947. His father was born in Alexandria, Egypt and his mother in Norfolk, Virginia. They met in Tel Aviv, Israel in the 1930s. They immigrated to the United States in 1952 and settled down in Cincinnati, Ohio. His parents opened the Yavneh Day School which was the community Hebrew school of Cincinnati where they both taught Hebrew. Weissbach's wife, Sharon Goller (later Sharon Weissbach) was born in Lexington, Kentucky where her grandfather worked as a kosher butcher. Her family moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she met Lee Shai while they were members of the Habonim youth group. The Habonim youth group was a Labor Zionist Youth Group. Their involvement in the youth group put them together for many years as youth before they began dating just before college. Weissbach discusses how he was hired at the University of Louisville to fill a French history teaching position. He also began teaching Jewish history courses, and eventually was given a state grant to hire someone in a Jewish Studies full-time position. Weissbach discusses how his research into French Jewish history became very comparative to research into small town Jewish communities in the United States which led to his books " ; Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History" ; and " ; Jewish Life in Small-Town America." ; Weissbach discusses the impact Kentucky Judaism had on his home family life, which he said was very little. FERNHEIMER: So my name is Janice W. Fernheimer. I an associate professor of writing rhetoric and digital studies, and the director of the Jewish Studies program here at the University of Kentucky. Today is October 20th, 2015, and it is my great pleasure and honor to have the renowned professor Lee Shai Weissbach with me. I hope I' ; ve pronounced your name correctly. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Yes. Very good. FERNHEIMER: Um, to--to give us an interview as part of the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project. And if that' ; s not a mouthful, I' ; m not sure what is. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Well, I' ; m glad to be a participant. Thank you for inviting me. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s really--uh, I was--just before the cameras were rolling was telling professor Weissbach how much of an honor truly it is to have the opportunity to meet you in person, and--and to get you to talk about things Jewish and Kentucky with you, because if anyone has really put Jewish Kentucky on the map, it is you. Um-- WEISSBACH: Well I appreciate that. And again, it' ; s--uh, it' ; s--I kind of backed into it in some ways. I think perhaps, we' ; ll talk a little bit about how I got interested in Jewish Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Yes! WEISSBACH: But, uh, I' ; m glad to be here. FERNHEIMER: Let' ; s start at the very beginning. WEISSBACH: The very beginning. FERNHEIMER: The very beginning. What was your name at birth, and when and where were you born? WEISSBACH: My name at birth was Lee-Shai Weissbach, with a hyphen between the Lee and the Shai, in Hebrew. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: Because I was born in pre-state Palestine, uh, exactly a year to the day before the state. So May 14th, 1947. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. WEISSBACH: In Haifa. Um, my family came to the States when I was five and a half years old. So basically, I grew up in America, and still am primarily an American. I tell people that I spent six years in Israel, from ages zero to five, and then from age 59 to 60, when I had a Fulbright fellowship at the University of Haifa. (Fernheimer laughs) So back in my birth town at that point. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. I don' ; t think I knew that you were born there. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um, so part--part of this anticipates my next question-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --which is, um, are your parents alive, and where were they born, and when did they come to the US, and what were their names and occupations? WEISSBACH: This is--do we have enough tape for this? (laughs) Uh, my father was born in Alexandria, Egypt-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, wow-- WEISSBACH: --to an Ashkenazi Jewish family. His generation was the only generation. There was a large Ashkenazi community in Alexandria. I' ; m not sure of the original origin of my grandfather on my father' ; s side. I know my grandmother on my father' ; s side was born in Romania, and I suspect sh--her family came to Egypt after the Romanian pogroms of 1878, because there was quite a bit of migration of Jews out of Romania, for sure. And one of the places they went were to port cities around the Mediterranean, including Alexandria, Egypt, which is where my father was born. My, uh, my mother was born in Alexandria--sorry, in Norfolk, Virginia. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) OK. WEISSBACH: Because I had one parent born in Alexandria and one in Norfolk, but not Virginia. Egypt and Virginia. That' ; s because my grandfather, born in Lithuania, came to the United States in the mass migration of East European Jews in 1904, and ended up in Norfolk, where some members of the family had already come. So my mother, who was, uh, oldest surviving child, was born there in 1909. FERNHEIMER: And what was her name? WEISSBACH: Her name was Miriam Weissbach. FERNHEIMER: And what was your father' ; s name? WEISSBACH: My father' ; s name was Maurice, M-a-u-r-i-c-e. Both of them, obviously, had transnational connections from the very beginning. Um, my grandfather on my mother' ; s side was an ardent Zionist, and decided in 1921, with the Balfour Declaration, that he should put his money where his mouth was, as it were, and took the family--my mother was then 12--uh, took the family to Israel, to Palestine. And he remained there the rest of his life. Just as a side note-- FERNHEIMER: Is this the one that you wrote the--that you edited the book about? WEISSBACH: Yes. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: So that grandfather wrote a memoir, which he finished in the 1940s. And I recently translated the memoir from Hebrew, edited it, added footnotes and an introduction, and chapter introduction, and it was published about a year ago by Stanford University Press. So his backstory is quite readily available. And my father kicked around--he actually ran away from home, didn' ; t finish high school, and ended up in Cuba, and then in the United States, and then back to Palestine. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: So my parents met in the 1930s in Tel Aviv. My brother was born in Israel before World War II. And I was born after World War II, so there' ; s over 10 years between us. And the explanation for that is that there was a war in between us. FERNHEIMER: Wow. What' ; s your brother' ; s name? WEISSBACH: My brother' ; s name is Yehuda, and he Hebraized the name, kind of working off of--of Weissbach, which means " ; a white brook." ; He fudged it somewhat, and took the name Agmor-- FERNHEIMER: --Agmor-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm, from agam or, right? Uh, he passed away just six months ago, actually. FERNHEIMER: Oh. I' ; m very sorry to hear that. WEISSBACH: Uh, he had had a stroke several years before that, and he was in quite bad shape, unfortunately, for the last few years of his life. But he left five children and eighteen grandchildren that, uh, my wife and I are quite close to. We try to get to Israel every couple of years, uh, or so, and we' ; ve managed to do that over the last 20 or 30 years. So we' ; re connected to that branch of the family, my brother' ; s family. FERNHEIMER: The Agmors. WEISSBACH: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And are they mostly in Haifa, where you were born? Or are they all throughout-- WEISSBACH: That' ; s another--that' ; s another question (laughs) that could take an e--easily an hour to answer. Um, they are in a co--in what was a collective settlement in the Galil. It' ; s now privatized. It' ; s called Yodfat. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: At the site of ancient Yodfat, which was the last stronghold of the Jews against the Romans in ancient times. As Masada was in the south, Yodfat was in the north. And in the 1960s, when the Israeli government was trying to increase the Jewish population of the Galilee, this settlement was established. And my brother was one of the founders. So they are still--all the children remained at Yodfat, even though they work in various places. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: And they kind of commute. Um, then they' ; re--they' ; re all interesting, wonderful families, actually. But, uh, they' ; re a fixture at Yodfat, basically. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And did you have any other siblings? Or is it-- WEISSBACH: No, just the one brother. FERNHEIMER: Just the one brother. And how--he was older than you? WEISSBACH: Yes, t--by ten and a half years. So he actually--I guess the missing piece there is, when we came, I was five and a half, but he was already sixteen. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. WEISSBACH: And never really wanted to adjust to America. So after three years here with the family, he went back to Israel on his own at nineteen, and remained there the rest of his life. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: In fact, his English was always heavily accented. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: That' ; s--that' ; s pretty amazing when you think about the k--the kind of different timing, and how that--that impacts the different paths. WEISSBACH: Yes. Mm. I sometimes joke that we both grew up as only children. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. I can see how that big shift of difference would--would make that experientially so. How would you describe your parents' ; relationship to Judaism, and what did they teach you about Judaism? WEISSBACH: My mother came from a fairly observant family, as is--is revealed my grandfather' ; s memoir. She, of my grandfather' ; s five children, was the most observant, only she was not highly observant. In Israel, she kept a kosher home in part because of her father, my grandfather. I think, yeah, if she were on her own, she wouldn' ; t have necessarily been very careful about the kashrut. She was never a strict Sabbath observer, but Friday night dinner was always a Sabbath dinner of some sort. Um, and she kept that approach when she came to America, that is, to be traditional without being Orthodox. Let' ; s put it that way. My father, on the other hand, uh, grew up in a very assimilated Egyptian Jewish home. He went to school in French and British schools in--in Alexandria. Eventually, he spoke nine languages. But the first two were--or the first three, really, were French, English, and Arabic. And then he acquired several other languages, partly because of his service in World War II with the British Army. At the end of the war, he was stationed in Greece, for example, and Greek was his weakest language, but he spoke Greek as well. Passably. Passable Greek. Um, so he was quite heavil--highly assimilated, never really observant in any sense. Uh, though he didn' ; t object to my mother' ; s keeping a kosher home. Um, what--one of the things they both shared, really, was an attachment to Jewish culture, and to the Hebrew language. Um, my father, for example, was the longtime--uh, a longtime officer of the Hebrew Speaking Society in Cincinnati, Ohio, which is where the family ended up. Uh, I guess that' ; s a missing piece also of this trajectory. When we came to America when I was five and a half--that was 1952--we spent a year in New York, and then moved to Cincinnati, which is where I grew up. FERNHEIMER: What brought you from New York to Cincinnati? WEISSBACH: Uh, work. My father was working for American Express in New York, and got a promotion to move to the Cincinnati office. And then, uh, they were opening the Yavneh Day School, which was the community Hebrew school, day school in Cincinnati. And she became the first--first grade teacher. So she was recruited to teach. So since they both had work opportunities in Cincinnati, that' ; s where we--that' ; s where we moved. FERNHEIMER: A--and tell me again--you might have already said this-- WEISSBACH: --mm-- FERNHEIMER: --but your parents' ; names? Uh-- WEISSBACH: Maurice and Miriam. FERNHEIMER: Maurice and Miriam. And so she was teaching at the Yavneh School in Cincinnati? WEISSBACH: And she had a long career. Uh, again, uh, a little side note. I just, last weekend, was at my fiftieth high school reunion in Cincinnati. FERNHEIMER: Oh wow! WEISSBACH: And at least a half a dozen people came up to me there and said, " ; You know, your mother was my Hebrew teacher." ; (laughs) So there--there are strong Cincinnati connections. Uh, yes, and sh--she had probably about a twenty-five or thirty-year career in teaching, as a principal of an afternoon Hebrew school, and as a longtime teacher in a day school. So-- FERNHEIMER: And so you--you remained--I' ; m assuming, but correct me if it' ; s not a correct assumption--(laughs) that you were fluent in Hebrew from living in Israel? Um, did you--were you able to retain that while you were here in the US? WEISSBACH: Well, uh, no. First of all, the--the language at home was really primarily English. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: That' ; s the language--that, uh, was easiest for my father and my mother to share. My mother' ; s Hebrew was obviously excellent. She--she went to high school at the Gymnasia Herzliya in Tel Aviv, which was the first Hebrew-speaking high school in pre-state Palestine. Um, but English was the language that we tended to speak i--in Amer--uh, in Israel before we came to America. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. Interesting. WEISSBACH: When we came to America, I forgot all of my Hebrew. I had been to kindergarten, nursery school at least. Yeah, nursery school, because at--Kindergarten, I did in New York. In nursery school, I, of course, learned Hebrew, and was fluent in Hebrew. In that sense, I was bilingual. But when we came, I didn' ; t use my Hebrew at all. And I only started to return to my Hebrew, uh, at the age of ten when I made my first visit back to Israel after having left at the age of five. Uh, uh, and since then I' ; ve tried to keep it up. Obviously, it helped that I was--that I was there for the year, sabbatical year. My spoken Hebrew is much better than either my reading or my writing. Uh, and in fact, for a while, I hesitated to do the translation project I talked about with my grandfather' ; s memoir. But, uh, a very well-known poet in Israel who I know, Hava Pinhas-Cohen-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --convinced me that my Hebrew was good enough to do the translation. So I tackled it, and it was--uh, it was not easy, but I think the result is very good. And I--if I say so myself. (laughs) Uh, but it was interesting to learn a lot of translation theory along the way. Memoir theory, I had to familiarize myself with those fields, as well as with kind of pure history, or pure social and political history. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And I can ask you more questions about that memoir in a little bit. WEISSBACH: OK. FERNHEIMER: I want to focus a little bit on family, uh, for just a few more minutes, if--if I may. WEISSBACH: Sure. FERNHEIMER: Um, what is your wife' ; s name? I understand that she comes from Lexington, Kentucky. WEISSBACH: Yes. Her name is--was, before we married--Sharon Goller, G-o-l-l-e-r. FERNHEIMER: OK, G-o-l-l-- WEISSBACH: --l-e-r. FERNHEIMER: Relation, or not relation to the Gullers? WEISSBACH: Yes, it' ; s--uh, the two branches of the family pronounce it differently. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: Um, yes, her grandfather had a kosher butcher here, and was a--a--really a mainstay of Ohavay Zion Synagogue. But her branch of the family, as her father moved to Cincinnati, uh, when my wife--my future wife (laughs) at that point--was six years old, or so. So both she and I ended up in Cincinnati from different places, uh, in the early 1950s. Um, her mother was actually from Wapakoneta, Ohio, and they had met in Cincinnati at one point. That is, my wife' ; s father and mother had met in Cincinnati. So Cincinnati was a familiar place. Um, we knew each other slightly in Hebrew School and, uh, we were--were at the same high school, although we were a year apart. She' ; s a year older than I am. Uh, in high school, but a--the main connection, the main connection we had with each other, was through Habonim, the Labor Zionist youth group. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: Which, uh, had an active program in Cincinnati, where we eventually became leaders of--of the city chapter, and which had a summer camp--one of a network of Habonim summer camps--in Three Rivers, Michigan, where the two of us spent many summers as campers, and then as staff. So, uh, so we became a couple by the time we were in college. She actually spent a year in Israel between high school and college on the Habonim Year Program. And that' ; s when I caught up, so we started college together, and graduated together (laughs) at the University of Cincinnati. And we got married between our junior and senior year. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: Yeah. It was ridiculously young, but it seems to have worked. We' ; re headed towards our forty-eighth anniversary. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Mazel tov, that' ; s quite an accomplishment. Uh, do you all have children? WEISSBACH: We have two children. FERNHEIMER: What are their names and ages, and dates of birth, and where were they born? WEISSBACH: Both children are adopted. We--after Cincinnati, after UC, we moved to Boston, where, uh, the--the move was initially for me to attend graduate school at Harvard, although along the way, my wife started a graduate program as well. She was trained at Cincinnati as a teacher of the deaf. FERNHEIMER: Oh, OK. WEISSBACH: So for five years in Boston, she taught deaf children, but then decided she wanted to do special education research. So she started a doctoral program, and eventually got her PhD at Boston College. Uh, and in that period, uh, we--not being able to have children ourselves, signed up for an adoption, waited a number of years. And our son arrived on the day of our tenth anniversary. FERNHEIMER: Oh, that' ; s a really nice mechaya, as you' ; d say. WEISSBACH: Exactly, exactly. It' ; s a--we no longer have to buy each other presents, you know? You can' ; t top that. Um, actually, he was born in Boston. We had just moved to Louisville, and, uh--and then found out the first week we were there that the child was available. Our almost three-year wait was over. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: So we picked him up in Boston, and he grew up as a Kentuckian. His name is, uh, Jacob Zvi, Yakov Zvi. But he goes by the nickname " ; Cobie." ; Everybody knows him as Cobie. Um, he' ; s actually named for the Zvi, who' ; s Zvi Hirsch, but of Lexington grandfather of my wife, which makes him his great-grandfather. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. WEISSBACH: Was Zvi Hirsch, so the Zvi is for--for that name. And the Jacob is after my wife' ; s father, also a Lexington native. So the--the Kentucky connections are much stronger on my wife' ; s side, obviously, than on mine. Although I think when she left at six, if you had asked her to predict the future, would she be back in Kentucky, she would see no reason. But now, we' ; ve been back for 37 years. FERNHEIMER: Oh. WEISSBACH: Um, Cobie, uh, went to school at the University of Pittsburgh. He did actually a year program in Israel between high school and college as well. Uh, the Nativ Program, the Conservative Movement. Got his undergraduate degree Pitt, and his master' ; s degree in Jewish communal service at Brandeis. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: At Pitt, he met his wife, Shira. Uh, and, uh, they now live in Philadelphia. They have two kids, so we have two grandchildren. FERNHEIMER: Mazel tov. WEISSBACH: Rina and Ari. Um, and he is--they--they stayed in Boston for a few years, uh, but then moved to Philadelphia, where Cobie got a job at the National Museum of American Jewish History, where he' ; s now director of development. And Shira is education director at a large Conservative synagogue. FERNHEIMER: Wonderful. And what year was he born? You-- WEISSBACH: He was born in 1978. FERNHEIMER: Nineteen seventy-eight. And you said you have another child? WEISSBACH: Yes. As soon as we got to Kentucky, we signed up for another adoption. You know, the first time around--this is something that parents that have biological children don' ; t get to do. We got to choose the sex. (laughs) First time around, we said we don' ; t care. Since we got a son, we asked for a daughter the second time. That' ; s Maya, who was born in 1982, and we adopted early in 1983 when she was about eight months old. FERNHEIMER: Oh. WEISSBACH: Uh, so she obviously grew up here as well. Did her--she did a year in Indiana University, but didn' ; t like it. So then after a short break, she finished a degree in Fine Arts at, uh, the School of the Art Institute in Chicago. She' ; s now living in Louisville, trying to do some art. She' ; s interested somewhat in film as well. Uh, working at the Anthropologie store in Louisville, doing some design work for them, which is nice, although mostly it' ; s kind of retail work. So she' ; s supporting herself, which you can' ; t always say about children who are artists. And it' ; s not completely clear if she' ; ll want to stay in Louisville, or what her long-term future is. Uh, so she' ; s 33 now, and we' ; ll see. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, that' ; s pretty exciting. Uh, so 37 years is a long time to be in Louisville. I want you to kind of go back (laughs) to that initial, uh--I--I presume it' ; s the University of Louisville that brought you to Louisville. WEISSBACH: Yes, exactly. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Um, can you tell me a little bit about the thought processes that you and your wife kind of--the conversations you had about discussing, uh-- WEISSBACH: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --uh, that move? And then we' ; ll--I' ; ll have some other questions about Louisville. (laughs) WEISSBACH: OK. Um, we were in Boston when I finished my degree and started looking for a job. And it was in the period when, as today, jobs for--in the humanities, especially, for PhDs, new PhDs, are few and far between. There are many more people available. And it actually took me three years to get a tenure-track job. In those three years, I did part-time teaching in Boston. The good thing was that my wife finished her work towards a PhD as well. But when I--in searching for a job, we had a kind of litmus test for where we would be willing to move. And the test was, we would move any place that had a Jewish day school and a kosher butcher. And the reason for that is--one is obvious, that is that we are involved in Jewish life and we wanted to make sure there was a Jewish infrastructure. But just as important was that we realized you could not find a city with a Jewish day school and a kosher butcher that didn' ; t also have a decent zoo, and a symphony orchestra, and an airport with a reasonable flight schedule. Uh, and a lot of other things like that that create, you know, quality of life. So that became a test. And, uh, I applied for a number of things, obviously, in--in the three-year period, and while I was doing part-time teaching in the Boston area. But Louisville was the first tenure-track position that was in a city which, at the time, had a Jewish day school and a kosher butcher. And, uh, which was attractive from that point of view. And of course, it wasn' ; t too foreign for us, having grown up in Cincinnati, and for Sharon having been born in Kentucky. So I--I actually published this as a--as an introduction to one of my articles. FERNHEIMER: I' ; ve read this. WEISSBACH: Yes. FERNHEIMER: I' ; ve read it, but I want it on the record. (laughs) So--so forgive me for asking anyway. WEISSBACH: Yes. She was working at a research firm that was run by Boston College, and was staffed primarily by doctoral students at the college. And when her colleagues there heard that she was coming to Kentucky, they said, " ; Isn' ; t that scary for you to move to Kentucky from Boston, Massachusetts, of all places?" ; And she said, " ; No, it' ; s really not that scary, because I' ; m familiar with it. I was actually born in Kentucky." ; And their response was, " ; You were born in Kentucky? We thought you were Jewish!" ; (laughs) I' ; ll tell that story tomorrow night at my talk, too. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s a good one. It-- WEISSBACH: --it is-- FERNHEIMER: --it' ; s a great one. And it' ; s a great way to start an article. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So, wow, 37 years is a long time to spend-- WEISSBACH: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --at one institution. Um, can you tell me a little bit about how, uh, Jewish life at the University of Louisville and Jewish studies has changed-- WEISSBACH: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --during the time that you' ; ve been there? WEISSBACH: Well, there was no Jewish studies program at all when I came 37 years ago. Uh, I was actually hired primarily to fill a French history position. My doctoral work--my doctoral dissertation--was on child labor in nineteenth century France. And it had a small Jewish component. I wrote a little bit about the reaction of the Jewish community to child labor legislation, because it involved Sunday restrictions on work, and that meant for observant Jewish families, two days when children couldn' ; t work. And for some families, that was significant. So there was a little Jewish piece. But, um, and I had done a field in Jewish history in graduate school, as well as in French history and in social and economic history. And so I had always had the interest in Jewish history, but the dissertation was kind of mainstream French social history, French institutional history. But the ad for the job at the University of Louisville said that they were interested also in a comparative perspective. So the fact that I had an interest in Jewish history was actually a plus and not a minus. And there was no objection where, after I got to Louisville, um, I proposed, uh, a survey of Jewish history as well. So I introduced it one year, uh, a Jewish history component. That is, a one-semester course. It went well. Uh, and it got enough enrollment and enough interest that I split that into a two-semester course. And then later, as I got more involved in American Jewish history, I added a course, an upper-level course in American Jewish history specifically. So I was teaching three Jewish history courses, as long--uh, along with courses in French history, two-semester survey, a course on the French Revolution, uh, a general nineteenth century Europe course that I' ; d taught a few times. Because of the work on child labor, I also did a family history course at one point. Um, and there were a few other professors that taught courses with some Jewish content, but again, no Jewish studies program as such. I, early on in my career there, saw the advantages and--and, in fact, the need for a Jewish studies position, that, uh, my feeling was the university itself would benefit. Certainly Jewish students--of which there weren' ; t all that many--would benefit from it, but also, the general student population would have an opportunity to learn about, what for them would be a different culture, a different religious group, and so forth. Um, so it was always kind of on my agenda, although I--I probably, if I went to my files and pulled out the first letter I wrote to the Jewish Federation, saying that maybe the Federation should take a hand in trying to engineer some sort of--or at least advocate a--a Jewish studies position of some sort. Probably goes back 20 years, maybe 25 years. And of course, as you probably know, we finally did get that position partly funded by the Jewish Fund for--uh, Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence, partly by, uh, a state grant, so-called Bucks for Brains Program, was partly responsible for that as well. So, uh, more and more individual courses were being added. Now we have an actual chair in Jewish studies. The main missing component is there' ; s never been a Hebrew language component that was stable and ongoing. There had been some part-time instructors in Hebrew language over, I think, already 37 years ago, there--there was some part-time teaching of Hebrew language. But that still is a--a gap in the Jewish studies program at Louisville, and hopefully will be filled one of these years in the not-to-distant future. Um, you know, it' ; s hard to remember exactly what things were like 37 years ago in general, right? Uh, I know statistically, the quality of our students has improved in terms of the scores they come in with from high school, in terms of the geographic distribution of students that come. You know, as the--as the reputation of the school improves, it draws more and more out of state students. So the school is getting--is getting better in that sense, in terms of its academic quality. I must say that I, in individual courses, didn' ; t feel a huge shift over the 37 years. But there were always some wonderful students in--in all of my classes, uh, especially upper-level classes. And--and I truly believe that a student of U of L, like a student at UK, uh, can get an absolutely first-rate education, if that student is a little bit careful about choosing the right courses and talking to people about which professors have--uh, have high standards, and--and really put a lot of effort into teaching. Uh, certainly with--because of the job market, we were drawing faculty from top universities all over the country. I' ; m sure that' ; s true of UK, too. So--so it' ; s gotten to be a better school in that sense. Uh, Jewish life generally in Louisville, the--the size of the Jewish population hasn' ; t changed all that much. When we came, that was one of the periods when s--Jews from the Former Soviet Union were starting to come. FERNHEIMER: What year was that? Uh, remind me. WEISSBACH: I came in 1978. FERNHEIMER: OK. Oh, that' ; s right. When your son was born. WEISSBACH: Right. Right. Right. Um-- FERNHEIMER: --sorry, I didn' ; t mean to-- WEISSBACH: --I--yeah, it' ; s all right. I would say that in recent years--well, some of the Jewish institutions in the city have fallen on hard times financially. That was true of the Jewish Community Center. The Jewish Federation has also had its ups and downs. I think in recent years, it' ; s been down somewhat in terms of its activism. I don' ; t know about fundraising. I don' ; t really keep track of that. I don' ; t think there' ; s been a huge change. Uh, but in terms of programming and so forth, I would say there' ; s a bit of a decline. Fortunately, the slack has been picked up by the various congregations. So there' ; s still a lot of good Jewish programming going on, especially on the part of the two Reform temples and the two Conservative congregations in town. Um, there' ; s, of course, a Chabad, which also contributes to the general Jewish programming in the community. FERNHEIMER: We have one too, now. (laughs) WEISSBACH: You have your own Chabad rabbi? FERNHEIMER: We just got one. WEISSBACH: OK. FERNHEIMER: I believe he' ; s related to the one in Louisville. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Ah. FERNHEIMER: I think it' ; s, uh, his son, if I' ; m not mistaken. WEISSBACH: Oh. It could well be, because--because there are several of his children that would be about the right age now to get involved that way. Okay, next leading question? FERNHEIMER: Next leading question. WEISSBACH: I' ; m not giving you any short answers. FERNHEIMER: No, no, that' ; s--I--that' ; s great. That' ; s actually what, uh, we want to hear more about. So it sounds like, um, I--I guess, were there key factors that you--that you mentioned a little bit, the economics, that--that played a role in the downt--or in the sort of decline in Federation programming. But were there key factors, uh, aside from obviously, the--the Bucks for Brains, and the--the support from the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: And, like, what other, I guess, elements on campus needed to come together to make it possible for--for the--for the Jewish studies program properly-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --but also, I don' ; t know, what--what exists in terms of Jewish life there at University of Louisville for Jewish students? Is there a Hillel, or-- WEISSBACH: Yeah. There is a Hillel, a small Hillel. Um, it' ; s been there all along, but it' ; s always been-- FERNHEIMER: --(coughs) excuse me-- WEISSBACH: --again, because the Jewish student population is so small, that' ; s--that' ; s one of the main factors that keeps the Hillel program very, um, uh, modest. FERNHEIMER: How many students at U of L generally, and how many would you guess are Jewish? WEISSBACH: Um, gee, I--I' ; m always confused about -----------(??)----------. People have asked me that. I would say probably about twenty thousand, something like that, with the professional schools. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Something like that. That probably counts part-time students, too. Uh, and Jewish students, maybe in the range of a couple of hundred, most. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: And so Hillel has never had more than fifteen, twenty, twenty-five active participants. Um, there' ; s a long tradition of--of Louisville Jewish students going away. If they stay in state, they tend to come to UK. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Or at least that' ; s--that' ; s kind of--I don' ; t know that empirically, but that' ; s kind of what I' ; ve heard all--over all the years. Um, if they go out of state, Indiana is one of the places they go. Or, of course, they go to some of the--some of the top East Coast schools as well. But, um, but very few stay in--in Louisville. Um, so in terms of--of Jewish student life, Hillel is a small component, but not a strong presence. The Hillel director, it' ; s always been a kind of low on the list of priorities for one individual at the Federation. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: That' ; s how it' ; s been--that position' ; s been funded. So again, um, the--the real big change is adding some Jewish faculty. Actually, there is a--another--a woman who--Natalie Polzer-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --who was on a term appointment, and just got, uh, tenure. Her term appointment was converted to a tenure track. So now there are two people for whom Jewish studies is their main field. Um, there are a couple of people that do some Jewish literature material. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Uh, there' ; s one sociologist, recently retired, that used to do a, kind of, religious sociology with an emphasis on Judaism. So there' ; s always been some--something--a sampling of Jewish studies courses along--across the disciplines, but never a coherent program until now. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Now, meaning, last two, three years. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. And, oh, did this impact the courses that you were teaching in--in Jewish American history, or Jewish-- WEISSBACH: Uh, no. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: OK. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Uh, other than it was something that--that I think the Jewish studies program was interest--was happy to be able to add to the list of courses available. Uh, in any given year, I never taught more than one of those courses. I tended--tended to use the survey course as a kind of feeder for the next year. I would offer the upper level American Jewish history course, something like that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WEISSBACH: But, uh, but I haven' ; t--I didn' ; t feel--uh, the courses were always well-enrolled, the Jewish studies--the Jewish history courses. So I think the creation of a Jewish studies program didn' ; t have a great impact. Uh, didn' ; t increase enrolment. FERNHEIMER: Oh. I know that you--you' ; ve talked a li--a bit about your graduate work at Harvard, and French history, and in fact, that' ; s how you got the job at University of Louisville. I wonder if you could tell me how and when your research interests began to shift from French child labor laws to, uh--and the work that you did your graduate training in-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --to the research and writing that was eventually published in your book, The Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History in 1995? Pretty shortly after you arrived in Louisville for-- WEISSBACH: Right. Uh, of course, that was the second book. The first book was a book based on my doctoral dissertation on child labor. FERNHEIMER: Right. WEISSBACH: But the transition went something like this. I' ; d always been interested in Jewish history. I was interested in labor issues and in children. So at one point, because of some of the literature I was coming across in the work on child labor, I decided to do a study of Jewish apprenticeship programs in France. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: I thought maybe a book, but it didn' ; t turn out to be a book, but it turned out to be an article of which I' ; m very proud. And it was my first published Jewish history piece. Uh, um, I forget what the title of the article was. It appeared in the AJS Review, if I' ; m not mistaken. I should have a copy of my own CV in front of me. (Fernheimer laughs) Uh, I also did another article comparing Jewish apprenticeship programs with general apprenticeship programs sponsored primarily by Catholic institutions or by secular institutions. This is all French history. And in the process of doing that work, I got--I started to realize more and more that, though the story of French Jews is almost always told as a story of Jews in Paris, or maybe one or two other large cities, like Bordeaux, uh, or Alsace, which, uh, again, is--was for--by the end of the nineteenth century, was detached from France. But French history, generally--especially French Jewish history--concentrated on big cities. And I realized through the apprenticeship program, the apprenticeship, uh, article, that there' ; s stuff going on in small towns also. So I thought I would do--I would look at small towns in France. It was at that point that I had small children, and a wife with a career, which made it hard to get to France for long periods of time. So I said, let me do something comparative. I' ; ll do small-town Jews in small towns in France, compared with Jews in small towns in America. One of the things I knew early was that the migration patterns were similar, because in the nineteenth century, Jews were spreading out across France simply because it had been illegal before the French Revolution for Jews to live in most of France. And when the restrictions were removed, Jews started to spread out throughout the country. In America, at about the same time, you had westward migration movements, which meant the creation of new Jewish communities in small towns all over the United States as well. So I thought a comparison might be interesting. When I did that, when I made that decision, I started to look at material on Jews in small towns in America, and realized that there was almost none. That there were some amateur accounts of individual small-town communities, but no systematic, scholarly, uh, project which looked at Jewish life in small-town America. So that became my major topic, which involved me for 20 or 25 years. And that was the third book-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --called Jewish Life in Small-Town America. Along the way, (laughs) um--well, let me say, early in that project, I did a case study, one specific small town, which had fewer than a thousand Jews, and was an interesting town where I could do some local research, and where I had a personal connection through my wife. And that town happened to be Lexington, Kentucky. And it turned out to be an interesting study, really, which showed me that Jewish life in a smaller community like Lexington' ; s, um, was quite different from Jewish life in big cities, or even in midsize cities. Uh, and that' ; s one of the main themes of the book on Jews in small towns, is the way that--the difference, you know, where the dividing line is between even midsize cities and small towns. Since this is video, I should use my hands more. (Fernheimer laughs) Um, along the way, I got--I asked myself the question, where other--what--in what other small towns were there Jewish communities? And that developed into the study of synagogues. I figured if you can find where the synagogues were, you' ; ll know more about the lay of the land in terms of Kentucky. And I got a small grant from the Kentucky Humanities Council to simply find historic synagogues. Where were they? Uh, of course, I wanted to include Louisville in that as well. But it turns out to be--actually, my--my dream was to come up with a visual, uh--a visual image of every synagogue that has ever stood in Kentucky, and came up one short. But just developing the database in the first place was, uh, an interesting challenge. I don' ; t remember the exact numbers off the top of my head. You can book an index to (??)--to the tables in the book, obviously, but there are about 50 buildings that I came up with. Uh, about half of them built as synagogue buildings, and the other half converted from other uses. About half of them still standing, so I could go look at them now. Half of them gone. So I relied on archival materials as well, obviously. And some were really, uh, great revelations. You know, a real a-ha movement that--that any researcher really cherishes. For example, when I realized that there was an image of Kentucky' ; s first synagogue, which burned in 1866, I think, um, there was an image of it, because there was a bird' ; s-eye view map-- FERNHEIMER: --I remember, um-- WEISSBACH: --very popular approach to mapping in the nineteenth century. With intricate detail of every building in it, and I could find the--the synagogue, Kentucky' ; s first synagogue, built in 1849, in that map. So I had an image. Again, it wasn' ; t a perfect representation. I' ; ll show it tomorrow night in my talk. Um, so it was an interesting research project. And in fact, I published the book Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History, which most studies of synagogue architecture take--uh, take a--an art history approach. And I took a social history approach, which was quite different. And also, added a long essay at the end of that book, which, um--which describes those project as a case study, which one could do in other places as well, and learn a lot from just locating the building and seeing what the buildings were like. I, myself, did a project on Detroit synagogues, which was very similar, uh, which was funded by Wayne State University and published as a brochure by them. Um, if I had it to do over, I would have given that book a slightly different title. FERNHEIMER: Yeah? WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: What would that be? WEISSBACH: Um, something like, just to make it clear that it' ; s really a gen--uh, that it' ; s a case study and not just about Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: Uh, something like Synagogue Architecture in Middle America, maybe. The example of Kentucky, or-- FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: So that' ; s a--that' ; s a project I undertook, kind of, while I was working on the Small-Town Jews. And Small-Town Jews was a national study. I developed a database there, um, by looking at the best population figures we have. Of course, pop--Jewish population figures are always hard to come by, because the US government never asked people their religion. FERNHEIMER: Right. WEISSBACH: So census documents, uh, only partly helpful. And--and I use them, I think, creatively, census documents. But fortunately, there were some Jewish institutions that collected statistics as well. And the best figures we have are from 1927 and 1937. So I used the 1927 statistics, and on that basis, I came up with a list of 490 towns that had more than a hundred Jew--or at least a hundred Jews in 1927, but fewer than a thousand. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Which is how I defined the towns I' ; d be interest--interested in. Lexington, at the time, had somewhere--it was one of the larger small towns. It had somewhere around seven or eight hundred Jews in the 1920s. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: And then I looked at what I sometimes call epidemiology. That is, the same way that epidemiologists look for patterns that explain disease, I was looking for patterns that explain what Jewish life was like in small towns, what kind of professions Jews were in, how they organized their religious life, how they even got to these small towns, what brought them to the small towns. And the more individual towns I looked at, the more I could see a pattern, so that I could apply it. And then anybody interested in a specific town could answer the question, is my town typical or atypical? FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: It' ; s interesting--either way, it' ; s interesting, whether your--your community is typical or not, or--or atypical. But now, one has something to--to compare it to. Um-- FERNHEIMER: OK. Sorry. WEISSBACH: Yeah, go ahead. FERNHEIMER: All right. I want to pause a minute to-- WEISSBACH: --uh-huh-- FERNHEIMER: --to--to talk a little bit a--more about specifically the Kentucky case example. Uh, obviously, this is the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Collection. WEISSBACH: Right. Right. FERNHEIMER: And so I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the various Jewish communities that still exist in Kentucky outside of Lexington and Louisville at the time that you began your research. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: And a--also, now, uh, and how they came to be established there, and what happened with them. And I realized that most of this is in your book, and I have read that book. But I--I want for us to have some of this on the record, and sort of, what were some of the surprises that you encountered doing that research? Um-- WEISSBACH: Yeah. Um, I don' ; t think I encountered any great surprises. But it was all interesting to see where these towns were. Some interesting patterns emerged, for example, that so many of the small towns that had Jewish communities were along the Ohio River. And that kind of would be logical if you think about it, but to--to actually see it on a map, to actually, uh--uh, see it on the basis of hard evidence, really tells you something about migration patterns within the state. Um, when I started the work--and this--now, the book is about 20 years old now--um, there were obviously significant communities in Louisville and Lexington, as you said. And there was still a community, a small community in Paducah-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --which maintained its synagogue building. In truth, I haven' ; t kept up carefully with the history of all these small towns, what happened to them. I think there' ; s still a small number of Jews in Paducah that are maintaining the synagogue. It is, um, on the circuit of the Southern Illinois Jewish Federation which serves a number of small towns in Southern Illinois, and includes Paducah. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Which I didn' ; t really know when I was doing the research, but, uh, I was invited to a program for them. Their office is in St. Louis, actually. And they--you know, they have kind of circuit riding professionals that go to these small towns. Uh, and I did a program for them at one point, and realized that Paducah was included in their orbit. Uh, Owensboro has a fascinating building, and perhaps my favorite historic synagogue in--in Kentucky. Which again, is being maintained because, if I' ; m not mistaken, there' ; s a--there' ; s a--an endowment that keeps it functioning. Although its long-term future still is a question. It was a question twenty years ago. The number of Jews in Owensboro is probably a dozen or fewer. Um, and there' ; s not a--that I' ; m aware of, not an ongoing program of services or education or cultural programs or anything in Owensboro. And the long-term future of that building, I think, is in doubt. Uh, at one point, I heard that there was some discussion of looking for a Louisville institution to take over stewardship, but I don' ; t think anything came of that. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: So that' ; s still a question that' ; s up in the air. Henderson, uh, working my way across--along the Ohio. Henderson has a building still standing, but no Jewish population to speak of at all. Um, then Louisville, and then as you move farther east, Newport and Covington, which in some ways--and this was actually an interesting case study for me in--in looking at Jewish history of small towns--which in some ways is part of the Greater Cincinnati Area. And you have to understand it that way today, in the twenty-first century. And even in the late twentieth century, I think you' ; d have to understand it that way. But in the 1920s and in the 1930s and earlier, these communities had their own--they could literally see Cincinnati across the river, but they had their own identities. They had their own institutions, their own synagogues, their own kosher butchers. That was true in the--in the region of many large cities. Uh, I know that' ; s the case, for example, in Pittsburg, where if you go five or ten miles out of Pittsburgh, you find a small town with a small Jewish community, and they might as well be a hundred miles from Pittsburgh. Even in--in Northern New Jersey, where you can see Manhattan across the river, until, um--until there were new bridges, and you had to go by ferry, those communities were quite isolated. And again, they had their own institutions, their own core families. So--so Newport and Covington, not only did they historically see themselves as separate from Cincinnati, up until World War II, at least, but they saw themselves as separate from each other, even though they are adjacent towns in Northern Kentucky. Um, they each had their own congregation, and kind of their own key families, and so forth. Uh, then Ashland, Kentucky, which was an interesting case study also, because as small as the population was, I think it' ; s--at its peak, it had something like a hundred and fifty or two hundred Jewish residents. And there were two congregations maintained there, because-- FERNHEIMER: --oh-- WEISSBACH: --the original congregation became Reform, and the small number of families that maintained an Orthodox perspective started their own congregation, built their own little building. So I guess that' ; s one of the surprising things, you might say. I use Ashland as an example. There are a few other examples like that, too, where at their peak, the co--the community has no more than about a hundred and fifty, two hundred Jews. And yet two congregations are maintained. Uh, on the other hand--again, this is one of the interesting things about studying small towns. The more common situation is, you have Orthodox Jews and Reform Jews, East European Jews, German Jews, in these small towns, and they' ; re forced to cooperate in ways that they don' ; t cooperate in larger cities. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: Even in midsize cities. Those elements in the community can' ; t, from a practical point of view, can' ; t possibly maintain their own congregation, and so forth. So, uh, so they cooperate with each other. And so I think that kind of cross, subcultural, uh, uh, cooperation is--is unique to small towns. What else can I tell you about, uh--uh, the only kind of inland community, besides Lexington' ; s, is, uh, Hopkinsville. And I don' ; t know much about that. Um, uh, important to me only because there was a small synagogue building, which, uh, collapsed under heavy snowfall, if I remember correctly. A roof collapsed, and their community couldn' ; t maintain the building. FERNHEIMER: Is there any threads that you want to share that kind of drew these different Jewish communities into Kentucky, or that landed the--uh, I' ; m not phrasing that question very well at all. Um-- WEISSBACH: Yeah. I don' ; t think there was any specific appeal f--uh, of Kentucky as such, as much as I like the state and feel myself a Kentuckian after thirty-seven years. FERNHEIMER: Lyle Lovett would be proud. WEISSBACH: Uh, and--yeah. Um, I don' ; t think that Kentucky held out any special interest for Jews, Jewish migrants. I think that--that what Jew--drew Jews to small towns, or to big cities, was primarily economic, uh, opportunity. Uh, these small towns are basically--the small towns are towns made up primarily of mainstream--ma--Main Street merchants and their families, people that clerks and bookkeepers and so forth that worked in these small retail establishments. Uh, in--in Louisville, there was also something of a Jewish working class. There were--there was a--a, uh--uh, there were the needle trades, and there was, I think, some also, uh, tobacco that involves some Jews. But again, now we' ; re getting into what' ; s typical of--of midsize and large Jewish communities, and where manufacturing involves Jews a lot. But, uh, even Lexington, even though it was, again, on the larger side, was primarily a community of merchants. Uh, and to find somebody that was actually a wage-earning laborer, or--or even a professional, historically. Now, of course, today, if you look at small-town Jews, they' ; re primarily professionals, doctors, lawyers, accountants, and so forth. Um, managers, in business. But, uh--but historically, uh, it' ; s been that retail niche that Jews have filled. And I don' ; t think there' ; s anything particularly attractive about Lexington, except that it' ; s, of course, convenient to get there early on, even in the nineteenth century, coming from Pittsburgh, coming from Cincinnati. Uh, there' ; s a natural route of transportation. So when looking for a--uh, a place where there was economic opportunity might well land in a--in an Ohio River town in Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Is there, uh, any particular story--you' ; ve shared a few already that are particularly interesting, that you uncovered, that--that you think are representative of kind of national trends-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --of small-town Jews, or s--this merchant class that you' ; re discussing? WEISSBACH: Yeah. Uh, trying to think, uh, you' ; re right to intuit that--that when I talk about these--these small towns, I try to find interesting anecdotes to--to go with the descriptions. Trying to think if I' ; ve--if I--uh, if there' ; s any specific one from--from Louisville. Actually, uh, the story of Yud Yud Schwartz, the poet, who lived here in Lexington for some time, and wrote a long epic poem in Yiddish about Jewish life in Kentucky, which is fictionalized, really. I mean, there are--others have looked at the details of that poem and--and seen that it' ; s--some of it' ; s invented. But it still gives you a sense of that. Uh, I use that example sometimes, if the large--in terms of the larger picture, to point out that there are pockets of high Jewish culture, even in some of these small towns. So that' ; s an example. Uh, also, it' ; s an example of how Yiddish culture survives in small towns. Uh, if only for a generation. The immigrant generation itself still lives primarily in Yiddish. Uh, I--there was a--published about 20 years ago, a special edition of the newspaper in Ashland on religion in Ashland. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: And there was a large spread about the Jews of Ashland, and it begins with this--with this, uh, word picture, which says, you know, I' ; m--I forget what the main shopping street is--and it says, you know, " ; On the main shopping street in Ashland, you can hear as much Yiddish as English." ; And you don' ; t think of that for Ashland, Kentucky. But, um, so--so when I talk about the survival of Yiddish, at least for a generation, when I talk about a high culture and--and the survival of that, some Jewish culture, uh, another example I use is--is a tombstone I came across in Colorado Springs, Colorado, uh, where the--the person buried is described as a Yiddish and Hebrew poet, and there' ; s a lengthy Hebrew poem inscribed on the tombstone. You don' ; t think of Colorado Springs, Colorado as a center of great Jewish culture in--in America. So those--those are kind of little surprises you sometimes find that, um--that enlighten, that--uh, enliven the story of small-town Jews. FERNHEIMER: Um, are there perhaps one or two essays--of course, yours (laughs)--that you might point folks to, uh, to better understand a more complete history of Jews in Kentucky? I know that--that there' ; s quite an extensive bibliography in the synagogue book, and I have, um, ventured into the small-town book just yet-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --but I imagine that it--there are-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --wonderful resources there, too. WEISSBACH: Well, for Louisville, there is, uh, a kind of coffee table book which was done by a first-rate historian, Carly Ely-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --who is now the director of the, uh, Locust Grove Historic Home in Louisville, who has a PhD in history from Brandeis, University, if I' ; m not mistaken. Quite sure of that. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell her last name? WEISSBACH: E-l-y. FERNHEIMER: E-l-y. WEISSBACH: Carol Ely. FERNHEIMER: And what is the coffee book called? WEISSBACH: Uh, it' ; s called, um, Jewish Louisville: Portrait of a Community. FERNHEIMER: Oh, yes. I have this book. (laughs) WEISSBACH: OK. So that--for Louisville, that' ; s--uh, that' ; s an important contribution. Again, sponsored by the Federation. Uh, quite well done, although not based on a great deal of deep research. I think that, uh, the Federation forced Carol to--to adopt a pretty tight timeline to get the book done. And, uh, it depends heavily on secondary sources, although many of them are obscure--obscure, also. Um, but that' ; s an important book, in addition, and an important addition to Kentucky--the bibliography of Kentucky Jewish history. Um, and it--and again, it--it tries to tell the whole story, and not just of synagogue buildings, as my book has. But I have published other, uh--other accounts that are, again, primarily interested in small towns. There' ; s an early article of mine, which actually won a prize as the best article in local history in the Journal of American Jewish History in the year it was published. Uh, which looks at mobility and stability in small towns, and it uses three Kentucky examples: Lexington, Paducah, and Owensboro. Those--yeah, so those are the three, because Owensboro, again, once had a substantial community of 300 or so Jews. And there, by looking at things like Synagogue membership lists, and B' ; nai B' ; rith membership lists, and some census material and so forth, um, I--I tried to point out that there are two sides to the coin that often, our images, these small towns have some key families, and that' ; s who' ; s there. You know, if you mention a small town, people will say right away--especially, you know, people that are--that know local history superficially, you might say, uh, I knew this Jew from Hopkinsville. And they' ; ll say, oh yeah, that' ; s the Levy family and the Cohen family. All right? And--and in many cases, there are these key families that have been there for several generations that are prominent. But just as important, and often missed, is that there' ; s a cycling of other Jewish individuals through these communities, who arrive, either don' ; t make it, or don' ; t like it, and move on. And there' ; s always--as we were talking about before, there' ; s always economic attraction for small times. Uh, so new families might move in, uh, especially if they know somebody who' ; s already there. So i--both a story of stability with some key families, and mobility, where you' ; ve got a constant--and of course, when people come in from other places they bring the culture of those other places. They' ; re often coming from big cities, so they bring big city culture into small towns. And the ones who move out of small towns, perhaps they' ; re born there and then move on, have this small-town experience in their background, which remains important in their lives throughout. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. That' ; s part of what we hope to capture in some of these interviews-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --as we--we, uh, are bringing a variety of different folks in from across the Commonwealth. WEISSBACH: Mm. FERNHEIMER: Um, and it' ; s interesting that you mention how those experiences that--that shape them, growing up in these small towns are, you know, I think sometimes that the rest of the United States thinks that Kentucky is one giant small town. WEISSBACH: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: Um, but, uh, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about--uh, you' ; ve mentioned some of this, you know, stability, and--and in--and mobility, but if there are some other key components to the narratives that shape the way that Kentucky Jews either think about themselves, or that others think about the narrative of-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --of Kentucky Jews, if we could even call it that-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --that thing. Because I know that there are these, even here in Lexington, there' ; s the--the families that have been there. And there--there' ; s Tugen Hyman and Little Hyman and Pat Hyman. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And they' ; re all three branches of the same Hyman family. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, but then there' ; s also, you know, the university, and there was IBM, and there are these, uh, local things that attract people who come in and out. And so-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --perhaps that--that whole-- WEISSBACH: --yeah. Well, look, that--that--one of the things that does is explain what happens--why some of these small-town communities die out completely, and some remain somewhat stable in terms of remaining small-town communities. And some grow. And Lexington is a good example of a community that actually grew, that up until World War II had never got to a thousand Jews. But after the war, by the sixties, seventies, eighties, because of the university, because of IBM, because it was an important regional center, um, it grew--uh, I' ; ve seen various figures. What' ; s--what' ; s the figure you give when people say how many Jews are in Lexington? FERNHEIMER: I think when we' ; re--when I' ; m in recruiting mode, I think it' ; s twenty-five hundred or three thousand. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: I--I usually go to the Institute for Southern Jewish Life and look up what they' ; re reporting. WEISSBACH: Right. Well, that' ; s about what I say too, now. But that' ; s quite different from the 800 that we' ; re--that may have constituted a small-town community before World War II. So--but there are only about--of my 490 towns, only about ten percent, only about fifty of them grew into something more substantial. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Um, about half of them disappeared, either because all the Jews left, like in Henderson, let' ; s say. Or because they got swallowed up into metropolitan areas. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: You can no longer think of Covington, Kentucky' ; s community, or the Jews of Covington, as part of the Covington Jewish Community. First of all, there' ; s no Covington Jewish institutions per se, all right? And also, just like everybody else that' ; s in Northern Kentucky, they' ; re part of the Cincinnati Metropolitan Area, all right? Commuting is easy, everybody has a car, most families have--many families have two cars, right? Where, in the twenties and thirties, it was unusual to have a car, and there were certainly no interstate highways, and no computers that could connect you immediately with--with, uh, institutions in the nearby big cities. So in that way, it' ; s been typical. Um, I published another piece, I think it' ; s the one where I--where I introduce it with the story of my wife and her move to Kentucky, uh, that looks at Kentucky' ; s Jewish history as a microcosm of national Jewish history, because Louisville is a large enough city with a large enough Jewish population that in some ways mirrors what' ; s going on in other midsize and even large Jewish cities, Jewish communities. So it has that example, uh, with multiple congregations, with something of a Jewish working class as well as a Jewish middle class historically. And, uh--and that' ; s comparable to other medium and big-size cities. But it also has this whole array of small-town Jewish communities, which makes it a good example of--of national trends. And the whole--the whole, kind of, standard, uh, discussion of the German Jews coming first, broadly speaking, and then East European Jews coming later. That narrative, which has to be fine-tuned, but it' ; s basically true, can be witnessed in--in Kentucky as a--as a state. Um, so in that sense, Kentucky can be used as a--as a case study. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. You' ; ve sort of anticipated my question, which is based, of course, on your research, but it' ; s how the story of Kentucky Jews corroborates, undermines, or extends the story of the American Jewish experience. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Uh, I think it fits quite nicely. Now, the American Jewish experience itself is much more complex than something we can talk about in a--in a brief interview like this. Um, and one might even say the American Jewish experience is, right? But in--in terms of broad strokes, what we usually teach in survey courses and so forth, Kentucky pretty much fits that--that pattern. Um, when you get into, uh, oh, discussions of the Civil War, which have been held in a--you know, have been taking place because of the hundred and fiftieth anniversary in recent years. FERNHEIMER: The sesquicentennial. WEISSBACH: Sesquicentennial. Um, you know, Kentucky in--in a way, fits the pattern of other border states. And the Jewish community reflects some of that as well. You had Jewish Confederates in Kentucky, and--although most of the Jewish population was in Louisville and was more loyal to the Union, we have examples of Jewish Confederates in Kentucky, too. So there' ; s another case where not only do we have, um--and of course, nationally, also, there were some Jews who identified with the Union, and some who identified with the South, especially in southern cities. Uh, so there' ; s an example of not only Kentucky' ; s Jewish history paralleling what' ; s going on in the country as a whole, where you have disagreements between pro--pro-Southerners and pro-Northerners, uh, but it also parallels American history more generally. Um, so yeah, I mean, it--it would be interesting for Kentuckians, and especially for Kentucky Jews, if there was something really unusual about the Jewish population here or the Jewish experience at Kentucky. But, um--but I--there' ; s nothing that I would point to. Maybe if I thought about it after this interview on my way home, I could-- FERNHEIMER: --(laughs) you' ; re welcome to send us some follow-up-- WEISSBACH: --yeah. (laughs) But, uh--but nothing jumps out as something--as something I would talk about in that respect. FERNHEIMER: Wow. A couple of sort of, uh, one-off questions. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Did you encounter any--I--I know that there was the influence on the architecture of that one very unusual synagogue, but did you encounter a--a lot of Sephardic Jews, or any Sephardic Jews in the research that you did in Kentucky? WEISSBACH: Trying to think if I ever came across one Sephardic Jew? FERNHEIMER: Uh-- WEISSBACH: Um, in--in modern times, late twentieth century, I mean, there are a few Jews of Sephardic background in Louisville that I knew. But historically, uh, I' ; m not aware of any. Even the congregation in Louisville that' ; s called Anshei Sfard, which means " ; Children of Spain," ; right, you might think is Sephardic. It isn' ; t really, it' ; s just because there are certain conventions of Sephardic Jews that Hasidic Jews picked up. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: So there are congregations all over the country with, uh, Sfar--with " ; Sfard" ; in their name, that have nothing to do with Sephardic Jews, but rather with some ritual and liturgical conventions of--uh, of some Orthodox groups. So, um, there are certain centers in the United States that have attracted Sephardic Jews over time. But I--I' ; m not aware of any migration of any group, even a small group--again, not impossible that one could find an individual here and there. I didn' ; t come ac--I--nothing jumps out. But certainly, no--no groups of Jews as such. The only small-town--I didn' ; t find in any town, actually, that I studied, a whole community of Sephardic Jews. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: The closest I came was Montgomery, Alabama, which does have a Sephardic Jewish community. But Montgomery had something like two or three thousand Jews in the 1920s, which put it outside the range of the small communities I was studying. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. Yeah, our president, uh, of the university comes from a Sephardic community in Alabama, uh, that hails from Rhodes. WEISSBACH: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: Uh, so that' ; s a currently local connection. WEISSBACH: Yes. FERNHEIMER: But--but I was very curious about that, because-- WEISSBACH: Hmm. Well, there is a Kentucky Sephardic Jew. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Right. Our f--our very first. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, and I guess, uh, I--I know this wasn' ; t the subject of your specific research, but it is an area that we' ; re very interested in, which is, um, if you know anything about the involvement of--of Jewish, uh, individuals or groups in the--the bourbon industry here. I know that certainly in Paducah, that was very, uh--Bernheim was historically a very important figure, and the Shapiras with Heaven Hill currently. Um, but I wonder-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --if you encountered that along the way around the edges of some of the synagogue research you did. WEISSBACH: Um, n--no, not in--not in connection with the synagogue research. In terms of the small town connections, uh, occasionally, um, Bernheim actually wrote a little study of c--of Paducah Jews. So that was very useful to my research. And I guess, even on the history of the synagogue there, but--but mainly on the small-town connection. And also, I just recently published an article on, uh, Kentucky Jews during the Civil War. And there was one Jewish arfi--officer who was promoted by, uh, kind of made famous by, uh, I' ; m--I' ; m trying to think if that' ; s a Bernheim publication or not? I' ; ll--I' ; ll hold back on this, because I' ; m not sure of exactly where--where I know this story from. (Fernheimer laughs) But there' ; s a--a--a Jewish Army officer who gets killed in action. Uh, a Union officer who--whose story is published, and I think it' ; s published by Bernheim itself. Um, and of course, in Louisville, there are a number of--of Jewish distilling families. The Shapiras, for example. But I didn' ; t come across them. Again, it--he--Bernheim is an outlier in the sense that he' ; s involved in manufacturing rather than retail sales. And he moves to Louisville pretty quickly after getting established in--in, uh, Paducah. FERNHEIMER: Paducah. WEISSBACH: Um, Marnie Davis, whose is about-- FERNHEIMER: --wonderful-- WEISSBACH: --yes. Um, Marnie actually s--uh--when she did her research at Louisville, had dinner with us a couple of times, and, uh, we got to know each other pretty well at--at that point. So I would refer you to her. FERNHEIMER: We' ; re very grateful she' ; s coming in spring to give us a talk. Yeah. WEISSBACH: Oh, is she? Good. Really nice. FERNHEIMER: Uh, yeah. WEISSBACH: Good. Give her my regards. FERNHEIMER: I--I' ; d be happy to do so. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Although I think I' ; ll see her in about a week and a half-- FERNHEIMER: In Nashville? WEISSBACH: …in Nashville, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, I just wanted to ask that question, because we--we' ; ve got a small subset that we' ; re working on-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --at the interview collection. It' ; s also a personal research interest. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um, it seems that, obviously, moving to Kentucky in this--this project, you started with the--the small-town life became something that really shifted the--the trajectory of your career-- WEISSBACH: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --from the book on Detroit' ; s synagogues, and the patterns of American Jewish life to Jewish life in small-town America, and then finally the edited and annotated version of your grandfather' ; s memoir. Um, I wonder, can you talk a little bit about, you know, was it the sh--the move to Kentucky? Was it the--the--the part of life you were in, uh, navigating small children and a working wife? And, uh-- WEISSBACH: Yeah. I think part of the--part of the reason for the shift from France to America was really practical. Um, but--but I' ; d always had this interest in, specifically, for the synagogue architecture book. If you had asked me in high school what I was going to be when I grew up, I probably would have said an architect. And one of the reasons I sh--I switched to history when I was in college, I didn' ; t--I mean, I never studied architecture, but I decided on history as a major, is because I realized that everything has a history. And in fact, I got to my senior year in college without enough credits in any given field to graduate. (Fernheimer laughs) So I said, what' ; s going on here? Why do I have some credits in music and some credits in literature and some credits in political science and some credits in history, but I don' ; t have enough in any field? And I said, it' ; s because I' ; m interested in so many different things, and they all have a history. So I, kind of, scrambled and took a bunch of history courses, uh, end of my senior year, enough to graduate. But there' ; s the interest in architecture going way back. And--and it fulfilled itself by doing a book where I studied architecture. Uh, I haven' ; t completely lost interest in the French material. And in fact, um, I did a--a piece a while back, I don' ; t remember the title of it off the top of my head, where I did compare small-town Jews in America and in France. Again, never turned into a major project or a book project, but I did talk about that. That was in the journal Shofar, published, I think. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Um-- FERNHEIMER: Given what you know about relatively recent Kentucky Jewish history-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --if you had to identify ten people (Weissbach laughs) either in Louisville or in the broader Commonwealth, that would be absolutely necessary to interview, who would they be, for you? Um, and I realize that you did this research twenty years ago-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --and some of these people may or may not still be with us, or still be in Kentucky. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, but, uh, just in terms of thinking about a representative picture of the Commonwealth' ; s Jewish history? WEISSBACH: No answer. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: No answer. OK. WEISSBACH: I really--it' ; s--it' ; s just--it' ; s too hard a question. Especially, you know, ten people, because then you start saying--especially since you' ; ve tagged on the idea to get a representative, so-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, I know-- WEISSBACH: --so, you know? So you' ; d want--you' ; d want people to represent different niches in society, and you want somebody who' ; s important in the business world. You' ; d want somebody who' ; s important in the cultural world. You' ; d want--you' ; d want a specific Jewish leader, like a rabbi. Uh, and you can think, perhaps, of s--of longtime rabbis that might be interesting to--to interview. Um, trying to think who the longest serving rabbis in--in Louisville, for example, are. Um, and again, it' ; s hard because it' ; s so close. Uh, you know, one of the great figures who had a national presence as well as a local presence was Simcha Kling, a Conservative rabbi in Louisville. He' ; s--he' ; s been dead for quite a while now, but that' ; s the kind of person I was--I was thinking of. I think some of the important Reform rabbis are gone too, so--and it would be hard for me to say which of the contemporary rabbis would be a good example of a rabbinic leader and that you really should interview. And ideally, all the rabbis who' ; ve served here for maybe a decade or more in this--in the Commonwealth should be interviewed. So again, business leaders, cultural leaders, religious leaders, institutional leaders, uh, people involved in Federation work, for example. And there a number of--and again, I--I can' ; t pick out the exact name. Political leaders along the way. Um, um, we haven' ; t had a lot. Uh, Jerry Abramson comes to mind. I said I wouldn' ; t mention any names, but there' ; s an example. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WEISSBACH: Uh, Morris Weintraub would be an interesting one. He' ; s been dead for about forty years now, (laughs) but he was Speaker of the House. Uh, and somebody who I actually knew as a youngster because he was in--uh, growing up in Cincinnati, my parents knew him. And, uh--and he was a Northern Kentucky political leader, and served in the Kentucky house. Uh, so he' ; s somebody who--eh, who was, uh, I--and I' ; m not certain of this, but I think he may have been the first Jewish elected, uh, Kentucky state representative, or senator. Not sure of that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, there were some mayors earlier, but-- WEISSBACH: Yeah, mayors. Mayors, uh, the--there' ; s a disproportionate representation of Jewish mayors in small towns. That' ; s an interesting phenomenon, too. FERNHEIMER: Why is that? WEISSBACH: I think because, first of all, they see it as good for business to be politically active. And because they have a lot of visibility as Main Street merchants. You know, if everybody buys their clothes from the same Mr. Goldberg, or their shoes from Mr. Cohen, you know, when he decides to run for office, it' ; ll be a familiar--name recognition in politics is always very important. I think that' ; s part of it. Part of it is, uh, not to make it too mercenary, right, part of it is civicmindedness. They want to improve their talents. But I think part of it is, it' ; s good for business if they' ; re seen as public spirited. Uh, and it gets them elected, because they' ; re known to such a large part of the population. So--so I--I go back to my basic answer. I can' ; t give you a list of ten. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Any others, though, that stand out besides Abramson that might be worth thinking about? Cer--certainly in the smaller towns where you had a bit more-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --experience than some. WEISSBACH: Right. Um, I' ; m not in touch or aware of anybody in--in Paducah. Owensboro really has nobody now. Newport and Covington don' ; t have a Jewish life that I' ; m aware of. Uh, and maybe there' ; s some former Newport Covington families in Cincinnati now, but again, I' ; m not in touch with. Um, there' ; s the Ashland family, the key Ashland family, was the Ma--Mansbach family. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? WEISSBACH: M-a-n-s-b-a-c-h. And the daughter of that family is very prominent in the Louisville Jewish community now. And in fact, there' ; s a lectureship named for her in women' ; s studies. I' ; m blocking on her name. But if we Google " ; Women' ; s studies, University of Louisville" ; -- FERNHEIMER: --we can turn her up-- WEISSBACH: --yes. So she probably could talk about Ashland' ; s Jewish community, and her father' ; s role in it. And it was a fairly large family. I think--again, I think he was a merchant, but was most responsible for building a small Orthodox synagogue. It' ; s--and serve that community. FERNHEIMER: Say that-- WEISSBACH: Auerbach. FERNHEIMER: Auerbach? WEISSBACH: Yes, is her name. A-u-e-r. Ashland. Hopkinsville, I don' ; t know anybody. Lexington, you probably know better than I. Um-- FERNHEIMER: Louisville is actually surprisingly challenging, given how many-- WEISSBACH: --yeah, well, maybe because it' ; s too big. Because if you wanted to pick out one family that was important, say, in the professions, or in the--or in the, um, the business world, or cultural life, it would be hard without offending a lot of people. Or even just, you know, who would be the best person? I--I can' ; t tell you. Um, and I think a lot of the old families are represented by people in the Reform community. Since we' ; re involved in the more traditional community, I don' ; t even know a lot of those people who might come from prominent families. It' ; s--it' ; s just big enough that you don' ; t know everybody, yeah? Uh, I think even with two or three thousand Jews in Lexington, even--and even though you haven' ; t been here all that long, you probably have a pretty good handle on who some of the older, more prominent families are. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m beginning--finally beginning to get a little bit less green. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, but, uh, it' ; s interesting that you start talking about your own, uh, personal involvement in the community. And actually, that' ; s sort of where I' ; d like to go next. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um, not--we' ; ve talked about your professional commitments and your research trajectory. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about the way Kentucky influenced your personal and Jewish community life, and what it was like raising two adopted children in Louisville-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --during the time that your kids were growing up? WEISSBACH: Yeah. Uh, the answer is Kentucky had very little influence on it. in fact, one of the things we realized early on is that, um, there was a--I' ; ll say--I' ; ll use the word " ; danger." ; It was a danger that if we relied on Kentucky Jewish life to define our Jewish life, it might be a little too provincial. Because after all, we are a little bit out of the way. Even though Louisville and Lexington are substantial communities, it' ; s not a New York or a Philadelphia or a Washington, or Boston, which is of course the community we know best. Uh, and that it was important for us to keep larger connections. So we' ; ve been involved in--in, uh--first of all, we' ; ve maintained a lot of friendships in--in various places around the country. Uh, especially friendships that developed in our Boston days, when we were involved in the early stages of the chavurah movement-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-- WEISSBACH: --uh, informal fellowships that have prayer services and study sessions in people' ; s own homes and so forth. Uh, that was a--that was a development of the 1970s, primarily. Kind of counterculture. I said I' ; d use air quotes, but counter--Jewish counterculture development, uh, that we were involved those, and we' ; ve maintained those connections. Uh, with children specifically, we realized also that it was important for them to have connections beyond Kentucky if they were going to grow up with--to be kids with a--a Jewish identity and with a wider perspective. And of course, with that, also goes a larger perspective in general. So our kids went, uh, for many years to Camp Ramah in Wisconsin, and maintained that connection. Our son, especially, was very involved in the United Synagogue Youth Movement. Uh, he' ; s very connected with Jewish Life, obviously, in his work life now, too. Our daughter, less so. But I think that the--the Camp Ramah experience was formative for her. And so she has maintained, uh, an element of a Jewish identity. Again, not as--not as strongly as our son, but, uh, uh, congregational life has been important to us. Again, it' ; s a kind of anchor. FERNHEIMER: Which congregation are you members of? WEISSBACH: We' ; ve been members--over the years, over 37 years, we' ; ve managed to quit the two Conservative congregations. Twice. (laughs) So initially, we were members of Adath Jeshurun, then we moved to Keneseth Israel, which at the time, was not a Conservative congregation. It called itself " ; traditional." ; Then we moved back to Adath Jeshurun, uh, and now, for the last ten years or so, we' ; ve been members of Keneseth Israel again. So it depended on what fit our needs at a given point. One of the reasons--one--one of the shifts back was that when our kids were school age and going to camp, there were more young families of that--in that cohort at Adath Jeshurun. So even though we' ; ve been members of Keneseth Israel and moved over to AJ, as it' ; s called, um, because the kids, for example, who went to Camp Ramah, tended to be there. But, um, when--when Keneseth Israel became Conservative and egalitarian, that was an attraction to move back to Keneseth Israel, also. So kind of our ideal is a kind of, um, very traditional religious practice and liturgy. But egalitarian in approach, in terms of women' ; s participation, which we had in Boston early on, which you can find fairly easily in big cities, but that' ; s rarer here. So for example, Adath Jeshurun, which we joined initially, was egalitarian, which was an attraction for us, but not as traditional as we liked. Uh, so that took us over to Keneseth Israel after a while. So that' ; s one sign that Louisville is a big enough city to live a rich Jewish life in, because you can quit a synagogue and there' ; s another one that fills the need. FERNHEIMER: Right. WEISSBACH: And that was even--you know, and that' ; s only two of the congregations. FERNHEIMER: And what were--were you involved, um, in any kind of leadership roles? Or was your wife involved? WEISSBACH: Uh, we--we-- FERNHEIMER: Or obviously, you talked about your children, and certainly, your son has become very involved. WEISSBACH: Right. Well, we' ; ve both been on s--on the synagogue boards along the way. Uh, I haven' ; t been deeply involved in Federation work, but I' ; ve been on some Federation committees along the way. Uh, I' ; ve sometimes been called on for individual programs, like to introduce a speaker or to--to consult on who might be invited by a congregation or by the Federation. Um, so I would say, uh, neither of us has held highly visible positions. My wife actually, uh, in recent Jewish history--recently Louisville Jewish history--this was a kind of significant milestone. There was a study, uh, considering the merger of the two Conservative congregations. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: And my wife was the co-chair of that. There was--she represented s--there was one co-chair form Keneseth Israel and one from Adath Jeshurun. Uh, so she was the co-chair from Keneseth Israel. And that--that, uh, the decision was made not to merge. But that was an--an interesting and important, kind of, step. I think that probably will come, that merger will come in the future, but the congregations weren' ; t ready for it yet. FERNHEIMER: What pre--precipitated the move to discuss merging in the first place? WEISSBACH: Uh, the fact that both congregations have aging populations, attendance is down in both congregations, um, both of them are maintaining big buildings. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Um, but in fact, one of the things that got in the way was the fact that each group said, " ; If we merge, we have to use our building." ; (laughs) And Adath Jeshurun, in terms of my interest in synagogue architecture, has actually done a major multimillion dollar renovation of their building. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: On the other hand, the most--the most, uh, prominent artistic feature of any Kentucky synagogue are the glass windows--faceted glass windows at Keneseth Israel. So to give up that building as a Jewish institution would be a real shame. So that' ; s one of the--one of the things that caused a breakdown. FERNHEIMER: Mm. OK. WEISSBACH: Also, a question of, uh, what the rabbinic leadership would look like. Uh, so as I said, I think it will happen eventually for financial reasons. But not in the immediate future. FERNHEIMER: What would you say would be some of the most significant things that have changed in the Louisville Jewish Community in the time that you' ; ve been living in Louisville and raising your family? WEISSBACH: Well, the disappearance of the last kosher butcher. Actually, there were--when we moved to Louisville, just before we moved the phone book still had three kosher butchers in it. By the time we got there, about a year later, there' ; s only one still functioning. And, uh--and that-- FERNHEIMER: Who is that? WEISSBACH: That was, uh, Crichton. FERNHEIMER: And where was he located? WEISSBACH: It was called, uh, in the Strathmore neighborhood, it' ; s in the Highlands. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Highlands is the-- FERNHEIMER: --faculty neighborhood, is from what I know of it. WEISSBACH: That' ; s--that' ; s interesting. I' ; ll tell you a little anecdote. In 1978, when I got the offer at Louisville, we had to decide where we' ; d look for a house. So I, being a social scientist, took a map of Louisville, and I took a Louisville phonebook, and I plotted on the map where every member of the history department lived. FERNHEIMER: Wow. This was before geo--Google Maps. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Before Google Maps. And I had to do it by hand. And I also plotted where the synagogues were, and I plotted where all the Levines lived. I picked one distinctive Jewish name. There were about twelve or fourteen Levines in the phone book, and I plotted them. And lo and behold, more than half of the Levines, and more than half of the history professors, lived in the Highlands. (Fernheimer laughs) So there was no question where we were going to live. And also, the--uh, all three traditional synagogues were in that--were in that neighborhood. So the--the two Reform temples were further out a little. Uh, so yes, so the butcher was in the Highlands. And of course, the Jewish Community Center is--it' ; s in the Highlands, too, although kind of at the edge of the Highlands on the Expressway. Um, so the--the last kosher butcher clo--has closed. There is kosher meat available through--there is a vaad kashrut, uh, and they' ; ve had an arrangement with one of the Kroger stores to have fresh kosher meat, although that' ; s been--had its ups and downs in terms of availability and quality. Trader Joe' ; s has kosher meat, so it' ; s not really a problem. But when you lose the institution of a kosher butcher, where you, you know, run into other members of the Jewish community on a Friday afternoon, or--or on a Sunday, getting corned beef or something, that' ; s gone. Day school, got an even bigger problem. Day school closed. Our kids went through fifth grade, and then from middle school shi--shifted to public school. And a few years later, they were already combining middle school grades, because there weren' ; t that many kids going. Then the--the enrollment kept dropping, and the problem of finding qualified teachers, really trained Jewish educators, are not usually attracted to smaller communities. So I think that combination. Uh, the Chabad has tried to continue to run a little day school, and I think they have a program with about 15 kids in it. Um, there is a group of young parents that are talking about trying to start a--a new day school. But I don' ; t know how f--how far that' ; s going to get. FERNHEIMER: When did the day school close? And when did the last butcher close? Roughly. WEISSBACH: Roughly, yeah. Probably, butcher was there for about 10 years after we came, so I would say it closed in the late eighties, early nineties, maybe. And the day school went until--let' ; s see. Maya would have finished fifth grade around that. Uh, also--also, in the mid-nineties, I would say. And-- FERNHEIMER: And--and what was the name of the day school, again? WEISSBACH: It was called the Eliahu Academy, named for a donor in the early fifties-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- WEISSBACH: --or mid-fifties, uh, who put up what was then a huge sum. What I heard was he put up ten thousand dollars, which is nothing these days. But at the time, uh, he got naming rights. I believe the family name was Spivak. Eliahu Spivak. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: Um, so it became called the Eliahu Academy in Louisville Jewish Day School. FERNHEIMER: Um, those were some pretty significant changes. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um-- WEISSBACH: So again, I--I would say that there' ; s been a--a decline. Not a--not a radical decline, but clearly a decline in terms of Louisville' ; s Jewish institutional life. About five or eight years ago, something like that, the Federation and the Jewish Community Center merged to save costs. The center stopped most of its Jewish programming. They had had somebody that was involved specifically in Jewish programming, and that' ; s disappeared. Membership--uh, again, this is, uh--I don' ; t have official figures, but I' ; ve heard that as much as seventy percent or eighty percent even of the members of the Jewish Community Center now are non-Jews who joined for the facilities, for the racquetball courts and the swimming pool, and so forth. Um, it has a good theater program, but they put on plays--primarily plays with no Jewish content, and most of the people who act in them are not Jewish. Uh, and there' ; s a--a little art gallery, uh, which doesn' ; t necessarily emphasize Jewish themes. So again, it serves as a cultural resource generally, but Jewish content has clearly declined. Uh, there used to be much more programming of a Jewish nature. There is still a Jewish Film Festival-- FERNHEIMER: --oh-- WEISSBACH: --which is part of the--Louisville' ; s--of the--of the JCC' ; s program. FERNHEIMER: And would you say the decline in programming is because there' ; s a decline in interest? Or you had mentioned before the sort of aging population and the declining participation in these two s--uh, cons--I' ; m presuming, sort of Conservative-ish synagogues. Um, and I imagine that that' ; s sort of a--uh, is--or I' ; m asking a question. Is that a microcosm of sort of the larger trends across all the communities? I know you said you' ; re not as familiar with the reform congregations. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Um, well, part of the decline in populations in the Conservative congregations is that some--is that the younger families, if they affiliate, move to the Reform congregations. So I think they haven' ; t suffered as much in terms of declining population. Um, but yeah, I think--I think it' ; s a question of interest. It gets--um, uh, I don' ; t know what the best adjectives to use would be, but, well, I' ; ll give you an example from this week. A very important and very successful and very fascinating Israeli writer, Etgar Keret-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --spoke in Louisville last Friday. And he drew a--a crowd, I would say, of about fifty, sixty people, of whom maybe eight or ten were community members who came to the university. This was a project of the Jewish Studies Program. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WEISSBACH: So there were quite a few students in the writing program, a few students from Jewish Studies, who came. And it was a wonderful program for them. But the fact that so few people from a community of eight or nine thousand to hear this--this great, great writer, really is an indication of--of lack of interest and enthusiasm for Jewish programming. I think that' ; s part of the explanation. Part of it also is financial. Uh, to--to get a--a highly recognized name, uh, we need a lot of money. So, uh, so yeah, I mean, again, I don' ; t want to paint too bleak a picture, because some of the slack is being taken up, in fact, by the university, who' ; s bringing it--Sander Gilman is coming, for example, coming November, I think, next month. So there--there is stuff going on, but in terms of attracting people, that' ; s as much of a problem as actually planning the programs. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m familiar with this, uh-- WEISSBACH: --yeah, sure-- FERNHEIMER: --with this narrative. Um-- WEISSBACH: How many people came to the Gary Zola talk, for example? FERNHEIMER: Uh, we had a pretty--I mean, for us, it was a--a respectable community showing. I think there were some s--uh, probably about 35, 40 people from the community. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um, and that was pretty good for us. WEISSBACH: That' ; s certainly respectable. FERNHEIMER: There was a timing issue with the end of Chag and the beginning of the program-- WEISSBACH: --right, right-- FERNHEIMER: --and I think had that been a little bit less murky, we might have had more. But he had a very--we had a very difficult scheduling-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --his schedule, our schedule, trying to make things work. WEISSBACH: Right. Right. FERNHEIMER: Um, so, but that--it was not, uh, atypical for us. WEISSBACH: Yeah. There' ; s a kind of myth, also at--at the university that it' ; s hard to get to campus, that parking is a problem and that, uh, you don' ; t want to be in that part of the city late at night. FERNHEIMER: In Louisville? WEISSBACH: In Louisville. But I think that' ; s partly an excuse. And again, it' ; s a real--it' ; s a real issue with some older people, for sure. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I--I wonder, um, can you talk a little bit about--these might seem like kind of strangely personal questions after these large questions about-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --but, um, how--how is your Jewishness different from or similar to that of your parents' ; , and different from or similar to that of your children? WEISSBACH: Wow. FERNHEIMER: You' ; ve--you' ; ve sort of talked about-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --around this in a little bit. WEISSBACH: Um, in terms of my parents, well, my father died fairly young. I was seventeen when he died. And he was-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-- WEISSBACH: --fifty-six. And his approach never changed much. I mean, he was never terribly knowledgeable of Jewish law or Jewish history. But, uh, very interested in Jewish culture and the Hebrew language and so forth. And in that sense, I--uh, I--I' ; ve--I got my involvement in Jewish life from my parents, for sure. Especially from my mother, who came from a much more traditional background, and was involved professionally in Jewish life, Jewish teaching. So I would say it' ; s probably similar in philosophy, and even in practice, to my mother' ; s approach. Um, my children have gone in two different directions. And my son is--again, probably less observant. And not that we' ; re highly observant, but, um, but less observant than we are. I mean, for example, we don' ; t do general shopping on Shabbat, my wife and I. We' ; ll spend money if it' ; s something that' ; s for Shabbat. You know, if--if you' ; re going to the zoo on a Saturday afternoon and you have to pay admission, that wouldn' ; t keep us from going. But to go buy shoes on Saturday afternoon because you need a new pair of shoes is something we would say doesn' ; t fulfill the spirit of Shabbat. Uh, my son, even though Friday night is important, and the kids are in Jewish programs, and so they' ; re raising their kids, very Jewishly involved, uh, obviously, my daughter-in-law is involved as an educator. But--but they do shop on Shabbat. So I would say they' ; re slightly less--less observant. My daughter, uh, has strayed much farther in terms of observance. Uh, unlike--my wife and I keep kosher. Not on the very strictest standards, but we do. And so do our--and so does my son and his wife. But our daughter stopped keeping kosher. She actually has a job which--where she has to work in a store on Shabbat. Uh, now that she' ; s in Louisville, we would love to have her come Friday nights for dinner, and she does occasionally. Of course, she came Rosh Hashanah, for example, and she came for the Seder. But most Friday nights, she' ; s working. So that' ; s--that' ; s, obviously, a much lower level of observance and involvement. Um, still has her eye open for Jewish culture. I think probably hearing news about Israel is more important to her than hearing news about Argentina. But, uh, they' ; re also a little less engaged than either our son or--or us. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: So you never know. And, uh--uh, I' ; ve sometimes wondered, (laughs) sometimes wondered whether the adoption part of this has anything to do with anything. And I think the answer is no, because you hear these stories with biological children all the time, that--that the two--you know, two children that are very different from each other in many different ways. And it' ; s true, also, in terms of--of our son' ; s interest in practical stuff in Jewish history, in Jewish life, um, and--uh, and our daughter is the artist. You know, lots of families have an artist and somebody else that' ; s more practical. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. I--uh, generational change between families is something that' ; s really interesting. WEISSBACH: You have all this ahead of you to see how--how your-- FERNHEIMER: --(laughs) yeah-- WEISSBACH: --child will end up. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WEISSBACH: How similar to you or how different. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, uh, I wonder, is there anything else that we--that I haven' ; t asked you that you think would be important to share on the record? WEISSBACH: Mm. FERNHEIMER: Either--uh, in any of these areas that we' ; ve sort of loosely covered today? WEISSBACH: Yeah. Well, I must say, I had no idea what direction this--this interview would go in when I agreed to come in and--and be interviewed. I found it interesting. I think we' ; ve had a chance to--to the extent that somebody might be interested in my experience, personally, I think they' ; d have a lot of information available. And more importantly, I think they have a bit of a window into my research on Kentucky, and on American Jewish history generally. Um, I frankly had not really thought about, you know, what' ; s something I want to be sure to fit in while--while we' ; re talking. Uh, and maybe it' ; s because you' ; ve done a good job preparing questions and being an interviewer. But, uh, I don' ; t think there' ; s anything that I want to jump on and say, " ; Oh, here' ; s one more thing." ; You know? FERNHEIMER: Uh, I want to thank you for your openness and--and willingness to come to be interviewed and be part of this project. Like I said at the beginning of the interview, really--if--if there' ; s something of a--of a subfield that' ; s developing on Kentucky Jewish history, um, you know, it' ; s--it' ; s thanks to you, and the pioneering work that you and some other scholars have done in this area. Certainly, um, it' ; s been an honor to hear about how that work really was (laughs) impacted by the very practical nature of life with small children. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Yes. Well, I was very glad to do it. And--and I must say, I sometimes have to pinch myself and say I enjoy doing this kind of work, this kind of research, this kind of writing so much. And I can' ; t believe people pay me to do it. So--so I' ; ve been very fortunate. I think that having made that decision to become a historian, and then at the last minute as I was graduating for college, uh, was--was the right decision. And again, I thank you for the invitation, and for--for the very good job as an interviewer. FERNHEIMER: Oh. Maybe that inspires one last question, which is do you have some advice to give to students who are either involved in oral history work or doing--working--studying at University of Louisville and studying at University of Kentucky, Jewish or not? What--what would be your sort of parting last words (laughs) for-- WEISSBACH: --um-- FERNHEIMER: --for students to think about? WEISSBACH: Yeah. Well use the opportunity. I would say use the opportunity of colle--of a college education to explore as many areas as you' ; re drawn to. Uh, don' ; t worry too much about having a practical skill when you come out. College is about learning generally, what we call in Hebrew torah lishma, learning for the sake of learning. It' ; s about an opportunity to learn how to write well, to communicate well, to think critically. And the individual major doesn' ; t matter that much. Then, as you move on from there, that' ; s when you have to start thinking about what--what kind of career do you actually want? So I would say, you know, if--if--to a student at UK or U of L, if you' ; re interested in Jewish studies, either as a Jewish student or a--or a non-Jewish student. If you' ; re interested in Jewish studies but you' ; re afraid you won' ; t get a job in the field, don' ; t let that stop you, because if you can demonstrate that you' ; ve learned to write, learned to think, learned to read critically, learned how to do research, right? Research skills are important in almost any field that you might want to get into. Uh, go for it. FERNHEIMER: Well, I think that' ; s-- WEISSBACH: --and good luck to you. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s a great place to close the interview. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Good. FERNHEIMER: Um, and, uh, we' ; re very much looking forward to your talk. So thanks for coming in today, Professor Weissbach. WEISSBACH: Thank you. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s been a pleasure. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh433_jk009_weissbach_ohm.xml 2015oh433_jk009_weissbach_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh433_jk009_weissbach_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lee Shai Weissbach, October 20, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Weissbach explains how he was born in pre-state Palestine in 1947. His father was born in Alexandria, Egypt and his mother in Norfolk, Virginia. They met in Tel Aviv, Israel in the 1930s. They immigrated to the United States in 1952 and settled down in Cincinnati, Ohio. His parents opened the Yavneh Day School which was the community Hebrew school of Cincinnati where they both taught Hebrew. Weissbach's wife, Sharon Goller (later Sharon Weissbach) was born in Lexington, Kentucky where her grandfather worked as a kosher butcher. Her family moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she met Lee Shai while they were members of the Habonim youth group. The Habonim youth group was a Labor Zionist Youth Group. Their involvement in the youth group put them together for many years as youth before they began dating just before college.
Weissbach discusses how he was hired at the University of Louisville to fill a French history teaching position. He also began teaching Jewish history courses, and eventually was given a state grant to hire someone in a Jewish Studies full-time position. Weissbach discusses how his research into French Jewish history became very comparative to research into small town Jewish communities in the United States which led to his books "Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History" and "Jewish Life in Small-Town America." Weissbach discusses the impact Kentucky Judaism had on his home family life, which he said was very little.
Identifier
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2015oh433_jk009
Subject
The topic of the resource
Family histories.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Universities and colleges--Research
University of Louisville
Universities and colleges--Faculty.
Judaism.
Jewish families.
Immigrants
Emigration and immigration.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/fe41e6d56118f3682c4ef7f8258bb3de.jpeg
ba58966199e3e30576d98e2bdd1e823a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
J. T. Waldman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Larry Kass
Interview Keyword
Jewish children
Jewish families.
Childhood
Emigration and immigration.
Family histories.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh432_jk008 Interview with Larry Kass, October 1, 2015 2015oh432_jk008 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jews--Identity. Women in the whiskey industry Bourbon whiskey. Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Alcohol industry. Distilleries--Kentucky Family-owned business enterprises. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish children Jewish families. Childhood Emigration and immigration. Family histories. Larry Kass Janice W. Fernheimer J. T. Waldman 1:|33(5)|45(13)|60(12)|76(1)|114(13)|138(12)|153(5)|174(8)|190(1)|213(3)|231(8)|245(8)|257(9)|277(13)|290(11)|303(11)|320(11)|336(8)|353(8)|368(16)|380(9)|397(1)|418(5)|430(7)|443(1)|454(9)|469(2)|487(14)|500(5)|522(5)|534(5)|557(6)|576(9)|589(9)|602(8)|615(1)|630(2)|642(5)|657(6)|671(4)|685(15)|699(10)|711(10)|723(4)|755(3)|770(6)|782(1)|795(7)|809(5)|823(5)|840(7)|853(1)|872(13)|885(8)|898(1)|927(10)|942(5)|959(2)|973(10)|991(1)|1016(7)|1029(14)|1040(3)|1058(6)|1075(16)|1107(2)|1134(9)|1149(13)|1171(3)|1195(8)|1222(3)|1234(6)|1254(8)|1284(14)|1305(10)|1318(4)|1331(10)|1344(10)|1374(4)|1403(7) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253339281" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 1 Personal and professional background Hello. Uh, my name is Janice Fernheimer. I am the Director of Jewish Studies at the University of Kentucky. Larry Kass introduces himself and talks about his childhood in Connecticut. He describes his career as an advertising and marketing executive in New York before moving to Kentucky to work for Heaven Hill Distillery in 1998. Both his parents died within the past year, and Kass attributes the rituals and traditions of Conservative Judaism with helping him deal with his loss. He also discusses his family history, including his maternal grandfather fleeing the Russian Red Army in 1917, walking from Ukraine to Amsterdam, stowing away on a boat to Montreal, Canada, and eventually migrating to America. Advertising ; Amsterdam ; Attorneys ; Bourbon ; Bronx (New York, N.Y.) ; Connecticut ; Conservative Judaism ; Death ; Detroit (Mich.) ; East European immigrants ; Family life ; Family values ; First generation ; Gerard Cass ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Intermarriage ; Israel ; Kentucky ; Lawrence Peter Berra ; Lawrence Peter Kass ; Liquor ; Liquor stores ; Lithuania ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Marketing ; Montreal ; New York (N.Y.)Nixon Peabody ; Northern Jews ; Ohio ; Old country ; Poverty ; Prep school ; Rabbi Diamond ; Red Army ; Renee Kass ; Roddy Kass ; Scholarships ; Speed Museum ; Taft ; Taft Prep School ; Waterbury (Conn.) ; Yogi Berra Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. 37.939, -86.176 17 Location of Heaven's Hill Distillery in Brandenburg, Kentucky. http://www.pbs.org/redfiles/rao/gallery/old/redarmy.html PBS article about the Russian Red Army. 637 Maintaining a Jewish identity and practicing Judaism in Louisville And how would you describe your parents' or your family’s relationship to Judaism… Kass describes his family’s relationship to Judaism as well as his own personal Jewish identity. He maintains that for his family Judaism was more of a cultural lifestyle than it was a religious one. His parents ensured that he was raised with a strong Jewish identity and he has done the same for his children. Since moving to Louisville, Kass has been an active member in the Louisville Jewish community, including a seven year stint as a member of the Jewish Family and Career Services and as an active member of his Temple. Abby Kass ; Acculturation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Boston University ; Bourbon ; Child-rearing ; Community involvement ; Conservative Judaism ; Culture ; Death ; Distilleries ; DuPont Manual High School ; Ellen Horner ; Generational changes ; Halacha (Jewish law) ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Hebrew school ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Interfaith marriage ; Intermarriage ; Israel ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Family Services ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish population ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Kentucky Derby ; Lily Kaas ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Mourning ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Shiva ; Southern Jews ; Youth organizations Childhood ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. 38.225, -85.651 17 Location of the Jewish Family and Career Services at 2821 Klempner Way, Louisville, Kentucky. https://www.jfcslouisville.org/about-jfcs/#timeline History of the Jewish Family and Career Services (JFCS). 1338 History of Heaven Hill Distillery from 1935 J.T. do you want to-- Kass describes the founding of Heaven Hill Distillery in the years following Prohibition and outlines the changes in the bourbon distilling and wholesale distribution industry from being several family-owned, primarily Jewish, operations to fewer consolidated companies. The distilled spirits industry was considered an " ; industry of relationships" ; between families. In particular, because of American liquor distribution laws, Heaven Hill is prohibited from selling their products to anyone but wholesale businesses. As a result, most of the relationships were between distilleries and wholesalers, who were primarily Jewish family businesses. However, that has changed in recent years due to consolidation of businesses. Baker ; Boychik ; Building businesses ; Business ethics ; Business relationships ; Chaplin ; Community ; Consolidation ; Conventions ; Crown Distributing ; Family businesses ; Glazer ; Glazer’s Distributing ; Gold ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish networks ; Levitch ; Liquor businesses ; Max Shapira ; Mergers ; Prohibition ; Relationships ; Small businesses ; Southern Wine and Spirits ; Wholesale ; Yiddish Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Entrepreneurship ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 17 http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/05/the-jewish-origins-of-kentucky-bourbon/392408/ An article from the Atlantic titled " ; The Jewish Origins of Kentucky Bourbon." ; 1896 History of the distilled spirits industry in the United States from the early 1900s Can I ask, I watched an interview, uh, of you recently when you were talking about how, um, you were in one of the warehouses and how the bourbon is different from one row-- Kass shares some of his favorite bourbon lingo and phrases, including " ; single-barrel," ; " ; shiner," ; and " ; mother." ; He also describes the history of the distilling industry starting with the role of rectifiers and the Food and Drug Act and the Taft Act of 1912, and discusses why bourbon has seen an explosion in popularity in recent years, primarily due to the artisanal, local foods movement. He also touches on the role of Jewish families in both the supply and distribution of whiskey and explains how many families did not return to the industry after Prohibition, the Great Depression, and World War I. Artisan ; Bourbon barrels ; Cultural acceptance ; Cultural preservation ; Culture ; Distilling ; Family businesses ; Great Depression ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; History ; Jewish businesses ; Language ; Lingo ; Liquor businesses ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Master distillers ; Mothers ; Peddlers ; Phrases ; Place ; Privatization ; Prohibition ; Pure Food and Drug Act ; Rectifier ; Retail business ; Shiner ; Single-barrel bourbon ; Taft Act of 1912 ; Whiskey ; World War I Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Entrepreneurship ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 https://www.malts.com/en-gb/whisky-guide/the-lingo/ An extensive dictionary of whiskey terms and lingo. 2650 Bourbon’s Jewish heritage Uh, so on, on a personal note what, what, what piqued our interest in, in the topic of the role of Jews in the bourbon industry... Kass goes into detail about the Jewish families who were involved in bourbon production before and after Prohibition and their influences on the industry, although Jewish branding is not overt. In particular he describes how Isaac Bernheim, who created I.W. Harper bourbon whiskey, named it after his lawyer. However, the Jewish Community of Louisville established the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience to tell the story of Heaven Hill Distillery's founder from a culturally and historically Jewish point-of-view. Bourbon Heritage Center ; Cultural preservation ; Culture ; Evan Williams Bourbon Experience ; I. W. Harper ; Isaac Bernheim ; Isaac Wolfe Bernheim ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish history ; Shapira family ; Visitors centers Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky--History. 38.256, -85.759 17 Location of Evan Williams Bourbon Experience at 528 W Main St, Louisville, Kentucky. 3004 Role of women in the bourbon industry And you mentioned--so you've mentioned a lot of interesting things. Kass talks about myths of the distilling industry and how women were involved in the industry, including their growing role in helping to manage businesses, whiskey tasting, the creation of the Maker's Mark wax stamp, and the creation of the distilling process itself in ancient Egypt. Anne Shapira ; Bessie Williamson ; Changes ; Gender ; Gender equality ; Husbands ; Influence ; Jewish women ; Kate Latts ; Maker's Mark ; Maria the Hebrea ; Maria the Jewess ; Nosers ; Olfactory senses ; Organoleptic ; Scotch ; Scotland ; Tasters ; Tasting ; Wives Alcohol industry. ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry 17 http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1094-alchemy#anchor2 Encyclopedia entry on Alchemy and Maria the Jewess from Jewish Encyclopedia online. 3387 Bourbon as a family business So it's interesting that you, you shift the conversation to Kate and, and, and come back to the importance of family. Kass talks more about bourbon as a family business, and talks specifically about the Jewish families that were involved in the business. " ; My Son the Folk Singer" ; (album) ; " ; Shake Hands with your Uncle Max" ; (song) ; Allan Sherman ; Barkhouse ; Block ; Bloom ; Blot ; Dreyfus ; Elijah Craig ; Evan Williams ; Family businesses ; Flexner ; Frankel ; Glogower ; Goldberg ; Grabfelder ; Greenbaum ; Harper ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; I. K. Isaacs ; Jacob ; Kahn ; Klein ; Levy ; Louis Levy ; Loventhal ; Martin Hirsch ; Max Shapira ; Oppenheimer ; Prohibition ; Publicker ; Rosenbaum ; Rosensteel ; Rosenthal ; Saxe ; Schwartz ; Simon ; Stein ; Tidelbaum ; Tidelman ; Weiss Bourbon whiskey ; Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 3954 Historical Bernheim advertisement Okay so we're going to end on a, on a slightly different note. Kass gives his opinion on an advertisement the interviewers found in the archives. The ad seems to be targeting African American consumers at a time when this would have been unusual. Archives ; Bernheim ; Demographics ; Minorities ; Prosperity Whiskey Advertising. ; African Americans in the whiskey industry ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Marketing. ; Sales promotion. ; Target marketing. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 17 4247 Reflections on the future of bourbon All right. Is there anything else that--I always like to ask this question before I officially, officially close. Kass reflects on the future of bourbon as interest in bourbon as an artisanal and cultural icon has increased domestic demand, while trying to keep up with demand for bourbon abroad. Jewish pride in the history and future of whiskey, according to Kass, is at an all time high. Jewish whiskey drinkers founded the Whiskey Jewbilee in 2012, a Jewish whiskey sampling event, because Whiskey Fest in New York, the largest whiskey show in the country, held its event over a weekend which prohibited Jewish whiskey drinkers from attending. Building businesses ; Chicago, Illinois ; Demand ; Distilleries ; Economic boom ; Future ; Globalization ; History ; Jewish history ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Jewish Whiskey Company ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; New York City, New York ; San Francisco, California ; Scotch ; Visibility ; Whiskey Jewbilee ; WhiskeyFest Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Economic conditions. ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 40.780, -73.977 17 Location of the first Whiskey Jewbilee at West Side Institutional Synagogue, 120 W 76th St, New York, New York. http://forward.com/food/343294/whisky-jewbilee-all-grown-up/ Article from Forward describing Whisky Jewbilee's changes over time, " ; Whisky Jewbilee, All Grown Up." ; Oral History Larry Kass talks about his childhood in Connecticut. He describes his career as an advertising and marketing executive in New York before moving to Kentucky to work for Heaven Hill Distillery in 1998. He also discusses his family history, including his maternal grandfather fleeing the Russian Red Army in 1917, walking from Ukraine to Amsterdam, stowing away on a boat to Montreal, Canada, and eventually migrating to America. Kass describes his family’s relationship to Judaism as well as his own personal Jewish identity. His parents ensured that he was raised with a strong Jewish identity and he has done the same for his children. Since moving to Louisville, Kass has been an active member in the Louisville Jewish community, including a seven year stint as a member of the Jewish Family and Career Services and as an active member of his Temple. Kass describes the founding of Heaven Hill Distillery in the years following Prohibition and outlines the changes in the bourbon distilling and wholesale distribution industry from being several family-owned, primarily Jewish, operations to fewer consolidated companies. He describes the history of the distilled spirits industry in the United States from the early 1900s, and shares some of his favorite bourbon lingo and phrases. Kass goes into detail about the Jewish families who were involved in bourbon production before and after Prohibition and their influences on the industry, as well as women's role in the industry. Kass reflects on the future of bourbon, and describes the Whiskey Jewbilee, a Jewish whiskey sampling event. WALDMAN:--and rolling. FERNHEIMER: Hello. Uh, my name is Janice Fernheimer. I am the director of Jewish Studies at the University of Kentucky. Today is October first, 2015, and it is my great honor and pleasure to be here with my collaborator, JT Waldman. And with Larry Kass of Heaven Hill, uh, Brands? KASS: Brands. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: That recently changed, so I wanted to make sure I had that right. KASS: Yes, it did change. FERNHEIMER: Uh, thank you so much for being willing to spend an afternoon with us. This interview is part of a large collection called the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence: Jewish Kentucky Project. And it is part of a subset of interviews within that project dedi--dedicated to Jews and bourbon. And we' ; re going to start just by asking us--asking you (laughs) to tell us a little bit about yourself. Um, where you were born, uh, what was your name at birth? KASS: Sure. FERNHEIMER: When were you born? KASS: Sure. FERNHEIMER: Are your parents still alive? KASS: Right. FERNHEIMER: Um, let' ; s start with those, and then we' ; ll keep going. KASS: Okay. Sure. There' ; s, uh, plenty there. Um, uh, I' ; m--Lawrence Peter Kass is my name, which is actually interesting, because I share a name with Yogi Berra, who just passed away. His name was Lawrence Peter Berra. And, uh, so people called me yogi when I was growing up, actually. (laughs) Um, a complete aside. But, um, I--I' ; m actually from, uh--born and raised in Connecticut, though I do try to kind of keep that quiet in the bourbon world. It' ; s kind of an occupational liability to say you' ; re from Connecticut in the bourbon world, I think. So I--um, but yeah, I was born and raised in--in Connecticut. And, um, uh, I came to Kentucky, uh, twenty-two years ago. Um, I was in advertising and marketing in New York, and, uh, had been in New York for about ten years, and got a little tired of--of living in New York. And it' ; s g--a great place to live. But if you can' ; t kind of strike the proper balance, it can--it can wear you out pretty quick. So, um, as I say, I was neither young enough nor rich enough to enjoy life in New York. (laughs) So, um, so I came to Kentucky. I actually had known Louisville--because I had a good friend in college that was from here, so I used to come here for Kentucky Derby every year, and of course, thought this was the greatest place in the world because there was Kentucky Derby, and wow, this place is great. So, um, I c--actually met m--my--who' ; s now my wife here, and, uh, she actually moved up to New York. And, uh, after she lived up in New York for about six months, and I said, " ; I need to move out of New York, would you be interested in moving into Louisville with me?" ; And, uh--and so that' ; s how that happened. Um, I was in advertising and marketing. Uh, as I mentioned, I worked for some big ad agencies in New York, and came here, and started an ad agency that ended up winning the Heaven Hill business. I was running the direct marketing part of that agency. And after they won the Heaven Hill business, I started working on the Heaven Hill account. And, um, after about two years there, I got the opportunity to come over and work at Heaven Hill, and I jumped at that opportunity and have been here ever since. FERNHEIMER: What year was that? KASS: Um, I joined the company in 1998. Um, so, um, I' ; ve been here, I' ; m going to seventeen years, something like that, almost eighteen years. It' ; s--it' ; s way longer than I had ever been at any other job before that. Uh, but it' ; s a--it' ; s a--it' ; s just a great place to work, and, uh, I could talk more about that. But, um, and, uh, like I said, I was--I was born and raised in Connecticut. Um, I, uh, went to a conservative temple there. I spent, uh, the summer of my junior year in Israel, actually. That would have been 1978, which was an interesting time to be in Israel. That was right--I was actually probably one of the last groups that was in the Sinai before they handed it back to Egypt. Um, and, uh--um, uh, you know, as I h--I--I' ; ve been in the business, I guess, in a great time. Um, I' ; ve actually been in the business for a while, now. It' ; s interesting, I' ; m actually--of all our competitors, our big company competitors, I' ; m--been in this business way longer than anybody else in any of the companies. They seem to come and go three or four times. But i--it' ; s been a great time to be in the business from the standpoint of the--I mean, the bourbon world has just exploded in the past, really, seven, eight, ten years, something like that. So I got to see what it was like beforehand, and I got to see what it' ; s like since then. So, um, so, what were the other--I know the background questions that you were asking me about. FERNHEIMER: So, you know, take us a little bit away from bourbon-- KASS: Okay. FERNHEIMER:--and then we' ; re going to come back to bourbon. KASS: Okay. FERNHEIMER: So, uh, I' ; m sorry, and forgive me if you said, but what year were you born? KASS: I was born in 1962. FERNHEIMER: Nineteen sixty-two. KASS: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And are your parents still alive? KASS: Uh, interestingly enough, it was actually--the new year just came and went, of course, and I was happy to see the last year end, because I lost both of my parents in the past year. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m so sorry. KASS: Actually, since April. Lost both of my parents, two and a half months apart. And my wife lost both of her parents in the past year, too. FERNHEIMER: Oy. KASS: So I--it' ; s been--it' ; s been a tough year for us with parents, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. KASS: Um, so, uh, you-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m sorry to trench that up. KASS: No, no, no, no, no. I--it' ; s--it' ; s--you know, uh, it--ah, it' ; s something I think about all the time. You know, I--I, uh, uh, my--my mother, uh--my father s--ha--had multiple myeloma for many years. And--and multiple myeloma is generally manageable. Um, but he relied on my mother to do everything. And my mother had a sudden stroke and--and passed away very, very quickly. And once she went, he really just couldn' ; t really function anymore. So--so we actually just sold the--I--I had been down to Florida--tha--they lived in Florida. It' ; s the old Seinfeld thing. They' ; re from Connecticut, but it' ; s the law in Connecticut, so they' ; re--now they' ; re in Florida. It' ; s that old Seinfeld joke. But, uh, I couldn' ; t (clears throat)--I had been down there, I don' ; t--seven times, eight times in the past (laughs) five months, I think. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. KASS: And my brother and I keep saying, if we never see another golf course community again, (laughs) we will be very, very happy. It' ; s been--it' ; s been, uh, a--a rough--rough go. But they were, uh, you know, uh, I--like I told my kids, I said, how tough this has been on us. Uh, you know, my kids lost all four of their grandparents, but--but what I do tell them, and it' ; s very true. They had, you know, fifteen or nineteen, depending on which one, years of--of very strong grandparent influence in their lives. They were wonderful people, and, uh--and--while they' ; ll be missed, they' ; re--uh, you know, they' ; re--they' ; re--they continue to--to live on in us, as is o--often the case. And--and so--so, um, uh, yeah, I mean, my--my father was an orthodontist in Connecticut, and my mother was an educator, schoolteacher. Taught, actually was the supervisor, of LD programs, learning disabled programs for the city in Connecticut that I grew up in. So, uh, wonderful people. And, uh--and my wife is from here in Louisville, so, um, uh, and they share--her parents--uh, she' ; s actually not Jewish. She' ; s, uh--uh, from, you know, kind of, like, a blueblood Louisville family. So it was an interesting wedding here. And (laughs) Rabbi--Rabbi--uh--uh, Diamond at the temple was--was, uh--was the only one that would marry us. So--(laughs) so he married us. Uh, we got married at the Speed Museum, actually, in one of the galleries. It was nice. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Oh, nice. And what were your parents' ; names? And when did your family come to the US? KASS: Well, my parents were both born here. My--my father was Gerard Cass. Roddy was his nickname. And, uh, he was born in 1930, um, in, uh, the Bronx. And, uh, my mother, uh, Renee Kass--it was spelled " ; Renee," ; but it was p--it was always pronounced " ; ree-nee." ; Um, she was born in Waterbury, actually, in 1932. And my father and his family moved to Connecticut from New York when he was pretty young. And they kind of grew up together. And, um, they were quite poor. Uh, at the time, my grandfather owned a liquor store, interestingly enough. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. KASS: And, um, uh, so they, you know, kind of struggled. Um, my father--I went to, uh, high school at a prep school in Connecticut called Taft. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. KASS: Um, and my dad, interestingly enough, when he was 14, won a half scholarship to go to Taft, which was $750 at the time. And they couldn' ; t afford the $375 to send him to Taft. At the time, it was just--kind of speaks to how poor they were at the time. And that always kind of informed them. Like a lot of people from their generation, they were always very conscious of money and keeping things in order. And so, uh, but, uh, uh, you know, they were just wonderful people, so-- FERNHEIMER: And, uh, so--so you said you were born here. And were they the first generation, the grandparents, to come? KASS: They were first generation. Yeah, their parents--well, actually my, uh, father' ; s father was born in Lithuania, I believe. My--my father' ; s mother was born in Ohio, and nobody in our family can figure out to this day why she was born in Ohio. (laughs) Nobody can figure that out--one out. Um, and then on my mother' ; s side, both of her parents were also from the old country. My--my grand--my maternal grandfather, actually, it was a fascinating story. He was born in 1900, he was conscript--conscript--conscripted into the Red Army-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- KASS: --and, uh, walked away from the Red Army in 1917, and walked from the Ukraine, walked from the Ukraine to Amsterdam, during the winter. FERNHEIMER: Oof! KASS: And I tell these stories about stealing, you know, frozen turnips from people' ; s backyard gardens, and stowed away on a boat from Amsterdam to Montreal, and met his brother who was in Detroit, who came across into Canada, and brought him into the United States. So yeah, just kind of one of these fascinating old--you know, old country stories. I could never get him to talk about it very much, he didn' ; t speak English particularly well. But, um--but, uh, he--he was really the only one of my grandparents that I knew. Um, my, uh--two of my grandparents died well before I was born, and my maternal--my paternal grandmother died when I was about five. So he was the only one that I really knew. But he was a very interesting old fellow, so-- FERNHEIMER: Oh. And do you have siblings? KASS: I do. I have a brother, um, who, uh, lives in the Washington, DC area. He' ; s--he' ; s an attorney, um, and actually specializes in--in Israeli, um, businesses, in--in mergers and acquisitions, uh, with Israeli companies. So, uh, he was just recently with Nixon Peabody. He' ; s moved to a smaller firm now, so, um, yeah, and he' ; s there with his--uh, he' ; s got a family of five there, and, uh, his--he' ; s got two boys that are already, uh, done with college, and one daughter that he' ; s looking--taking to look at colleges, right now, so-- FERNHEIMER: Oh. And is he older or younger? KASS: He' ; s two years older than I am. Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Mm. And h--how would you describe your parents, or your family' ; s relationship to Judaism, and the way that you did or didn' ; t practice as you were growing up? KASS: Um, I mean, while we were not--I would--I would s--characterize this as not necessarily particularly religious-slash-observant. I mean, like a lot of Conservative Jews, we went on High Holidays, we' ; d go on the occasional Sabbath, uh, Shabbat here and there. But Judaism absolutely permeated every fabric, every fiber of our being. I mean, you know, it was more of a cultural lifestyle thing than a--than a religious thing with us. I mean, all my parents' ; friends were Jewish, uh, and, uh, you know, it just--uh, uh, you know, I went to Hebrew School, um, so I had an entire circle of Jewish friends growing up. And do--I mean, it was a--my parents were very, very conscious and cognizant of making sure that Judaism was important in our lives, no doubt about it. FERNHEIMER: And how would you describe your own Jewish identity? Sorry if that didn' ; t come out very clear. KASS: Um, I--w--well, um, you know, I' ; m certainly proud. I' ; m, um--you know, it' ; s interesting, I guess we go through these, uh, kind of individual, uh, cycles and whatnot. But, um, I' ; ve been--um, maybe it has something to do with the--my age, maybe it has something to do with the fact that I' ; ve lost my parents, but I certainly have been kind of f--feeling myself, uh, drawn back to Judaism more, perhaps than I have ever have in the past f--five years or so. Um, so, uh, you know, I--I--my wife is not Jewish, but, uh, I told her, and told my parents, that I was going to raise my--my two daughters Jewish, and I' ; ve done that. And, um--and so that' ; s satisfying, and, um, my older daughter in particular has just gone to Israel for the fourth time. I' ; ve only been once, (laughs) she' ; s been four times. Um, so, um, i--it--you know, it--it--it definitely is, uh--is an important kind of compass in my life these days. And--and again, I think as my--my parents--i--it was interesting losing my parents and kind of--you know, I had an appreciation for kind of the Jewish process of grieving and--and--and healing, you know? The--the Jewish law says that--that, you know, during shiva, you' ; re supposed to--you know, you' ; re supposed to not engage in social activities. You' ; re supposed to not do a lot of things. But when it' ; s over, you' ; re supposed to do those things. And there' ; s something important about that, I--uh, that, you know, there' ; s something wise about that, that you lose track of a little bit when you' ; re in the middle of it. So I found it particularly reassuring. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Yeah. I' ; ve always found the Jewish laws around mourning to be pretty helpful, and--and-- KASS: --yeah, sensible-- FERNHEIMER: --sensible. Um, you' ; ve told us a little bit about how you got to Kentucky, and also a little bit about how you met your wife. But I wonder if you might talk a little bit more about that, and, um--and also about your involvement in the Jewish communities, uh, both as growing up in Connecticut, but also here in Louisville, personally and professionally. You' ; ve sort of touched a little bit on that in your response. KASS: Um, sure. Um, well, uh, in vo--in terms of involvement in the community, um, you know, when I was in Connecticut, um, I--I really left Connecticut when I went away to college. Um, so, uh, I was certainly involved in the Jewish community then. I w--I would say it was mostly at the urging of my parents, more than, um--uh, it was more of a--uh, perhaps a push strategy than a pull strategy, as we say in the marketing business. But, um--but, uh, I mean, since then, and--and certainly here in Louisville, um, I mean, I' ; ve--b--become quite involved. I mean, I' ; ve been on the board of Jewish family and career services here for, that' ; s--I think I' ; m going seventh year, sixth year, um, which is just a wonderful organization. There--there--there are JFCS-like organizations all over the country that you' ; re probably familiar with. And interestingly enough, I found myself kind of turning to the JFCS organization in Florida after with my parents, and u--using them for some resources. So, uh, j--a wonderful organization. And serves not only the Jewish community, but the--the greater community. So, um, and, uh, I--I certainly have been involved in--in the temple. Um, one of the ways that I certainly have been involved in the temple is kind of through my--my role as--here at Heaven Hill, and as somebody that' ; s in--in the--the bourbon business, I had done a lot of different kind of events there, tastings for various youth organizations. Not, like, young, young--(laughs)--youth organizations. You know, young temple member organizations, legal drinking age members. Um, and, you know, we did, uh, a whole series of events there a few years ago as part of their--their main fundraising drive, which was kind of all around, uh, bourbon. So, um, that' ; s kind of been interesting. And certainly, I can tell you in the past, really, four or five years, there has, with increasing frequency, been, um, interest from all over the country, actually. Some international interest, as well, in terms of Judaism and bourbon, Judaism in the distilled spirits business. And, uh, so--so quite topical for--for us to be talking. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So you--you talked a little bit about how things are changing in the--in the bourbon industry in the last few years. Can you tell us a little bit about how things have changed in the Louisville Jewish community just in the time that you' ; ve been here? KASS: Um, sure. Uh, you know, i--i--i--it' ; s--it' ; s a remarkably vibrant community. I mean, um, I always think that the--the s--one of the best gauges of kind of how the community is doing is--is kind of the involvement of young people. And--and--and it' ; s quite remarkable. There' ; s, you know, a l--a lot of--of involvement from children all the way up at--at--at the temple and in the Jewish community in general in Louisville. Um, I mean, it' ; s interesting, you know, there' ; s kind of an old joke about, (laughs) you know, b--in the Northeast, kind of where my parents are from, you know, I said, you know, I' ; ll go to Louisville, there' ; s J--like, there are Jewish people in Louisville? I went out with a girl from Birmingham, Alabama. Like, a Jewish girl. There are Jews in Birmingham Ala--you know, they--it' ; s just, it' ; s kind of half a joke, but they really, you know, have a hard time understanding that. But--but really, I mean, here in Louisville, the--the--the Jewish community is, like it is in so many other places, I suppose, disproportionately influential, I would argue, in terms of--of their numbers. But, uh, um, actually, at this point, when I was considering coming here, of course, Jerry Abramson was--was mayor for life, as they joked. And, uh, so I was able to quickly tell my parents that they mayor' ; s Jewish. So, (laughs) um, and actually at the time when I was going out with this girl from Alabama, the mayor of Birmingham was Jewish, interestingly enough. But so, you know, I--I didn' ; t know a whole lot about the Jewish community in Louisville, uh, really before I moved here. Uh, I--I didn' ; t know a whole lot about it, but, um, i--it' ; s--it' ; s a wonderful, wonderful Jewish community. Um, very, very, uh, tight knit, very, very responsible, socially responsible, socially aware. Um, just a--a--a great community. FERNHEIMER: And so how has your time in Kentucky influenced the way that you think about Judaism? I' ; m sorry if I seem to be hammering on a horse, where we' ; re going to move from Judaism to bourbon in just a second, but-- KASS: --no, no, of course-- FERNHEIMER: --there is a method to our madness. (laughs) KASS: Sure, sure. No, I--I--I--I mean, uh, you know, I guess, similar to spending, I spent a summer in Birmingham. I mean, it' ; s good--I--I--I told my parents, certainly, this, but, you know, somebody that kind of comes from the Northeast, you know, the New York area, it' ; s very tunnel vision there. You kind of think the entire Jewish world is kind of like around there, in the Northeast, and certainly, there are--you know, New York is a very, very Jewish influenced city. Um, but to come to--so either spend a summer in Birmingham, or to spend time in--in Louisville is a good way to see that, um, the influence and importance of Judaism exp--extends well beyond, kind of, what a lot of people think is the traditional areas. And--uh, and so that' ; s--that' ; s, uh, comforting, and, uh, exciting to see. Um, the Jewish community here in Louisville, uh, there' ; s a lot of great business leaders, community leaders, and--um, and they are all very, very involved in the Jewish community. And it' ; s--uh, it' ; s--it' ; s very, very healthy. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So you mentioned that the rabbi at the time was the only rabbi willing to m--marry you and your wife. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the--more of the particulars about how you met, and what her name is, and what your children' ; s names are, (laughs) and how old they are. KASS: Sure. Those, those minor details. Um, yeah, my wife who' ; s--uh, whose name is Ellen. Um, Ellen Horner was her--her maiden name. Um, uh, I--I--(laughs) it' ; s kind of a funny story. I, um--she was--I mentioned, I come down to Derbies with a--a college buddy of mine. Uh, she was best friends with his sister. And, um, I--I used to come down to Derby. And, um, I would--I would definitely have a good time down here. I was, uh--um, didn' ; t have a whole lot of time to do anything else other than party and have a good time. And, uh, you know, the idea of kind of, like, meeting a girl down here never really occurred to me, because I was down here for--for Derby. And, uh--and one year, I guess I let my guard down a little bit, (laughs) and, uh, I--uh, I met my wife, kind of in a romantic way, and--and it was actually a--a Derby fling that turned into a marriage. So, uh--so it--it was kind of an interesting story. She, uh--uh, and we have two children. Uh, my oldest, uh, Abby is nineteen now, going to be twenty in January. Um, and she' ; s a sophomore at--at, uh, Boston University, BU. And my younger daughter, Lily, uh, is fifteen, about to turn sixteen, gulp. And, uh, she is a sophomore at Manual, and DuPont Manual, in the visual arts magnet. She' ; s a very talented artist, so, um, yeah, I--uh, uh, two wonderful, wonderful girls. FERNHEIMER: And how would you say your daughters' ; relationship to Judaism is different to or similar from--si--different from or similar to yours and your involvement in the Jewish community? KASS: Sure. I--I mean, I think, uh, I mentioned earlier, my older daughter in particular has been to Israel a number of times. I mean, it' ; s interesting. They--the--I think they' ; re every bit as cognizant, proud, involved in Judaism as I am. But interestingly enough, I had parents, had very much kind of pushed me, pushed me. And--and--and everything kind of had--you know, they very much controlled my environment. I would say it' ; s almost been the opposite with us. We really, um--you know, my wife is not Jewish. Uh, you know, lots of our friends are not Jewish. We don' ; t--you know, it' ; s a very different situation than certainly my parents growing up. But, my kids have almost ended up in the same place. And there' ; s something nice about that. I think there' ; s something about, you know, the--the--the religion and the culture and the way of life being appealing, no matter kind of which route you come at it from. Uh, and so we' ; ve kind of ended up in the same place, my kids and myself, and, uh, through very different routes. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. Thanks. JT, do you want to switch? WALDMAN: Sure. Well, you already answered my first question, which was kind of how you came to be involved in the bourbon industry in Heaven Hill. So I' ; ll kind of, to--to save us from repeating that. So when--when watching the, um, Kentucky Bourbon Tales interview with Max Shapira, he--he talked a lot about the advantages of the distribution network-- KASS: --um-hm-- FERNHEIMER: --and how that really helped grow the business. Um, can you--can you kind of unpack that a little bit more for us, and kind of what that means? KASS: Sure. Uh, I think what--you know, Max talks about this a lot, and--and, you know, I think a lot of businesses talk about being in the business of relationships, all that kind of cliché. But truly, I really do think that the distilled spirits business, particularly a number of years ago before there was a lot of consolidation, particularly the wholesale tier, really was a business of relationships. And Max is the son of one of the five brothers that founded the company right after prohibition ; with no intention, by the way, of founding a distilled spirits company. They did it purely as an investment. But, the--the amazing thing about the business at that time, and really w--what remained in that, and unique about this bus- well, maybe perhaps not unique about this business, but certainly, uh, a part of this business for a long time, were that many of the business were family owned, particularly at the wholesale level. Um, distilled--the distilled spirits business itself, just to take a step back, is--is just--is a bit of a dinosaur in terms of the way it--it--it works, because we, Heaven Hill, are a supplier, producer, distiller. Whatever, we make the stuff. We, by law, cannot sell to anybody other than the wholesale tier. We cannot sell to a retailer, we--Lord knows we can' ; t sell to a consumer. Uh, we can only sell to the wholesale tier, which obviously bothers the Costcos and Walmarts of the world a great deal, and they' ; re trying to get--get that changed, in a way. But--but that' ; s the way it is. That' ; s the way the laws are. And because our customers really are wholesalers, those are the ones we sell to. Those are the ones that--that, particularly back in the day, that the relationships really were built with. And if you look around, more 20, 25, 30 years ago than now, because there has been so much merger and consolidation, particularly the wholesale tier. But if you look back at our customers, you literally can see each one of them being a family company at some point. And, more often than not, a Jewish family company. And you can literally--Max would be able to do this better than I, but could think of going around the company from Quality Wine and Spirits in Minnesota, the Gold and Barker family. In Florida, the Chaplin family, Southern Wine and Spirits, which has become the company that swallowed everybody else up. The Glazer family that formed Glazer' ; s Distributing. Um, i--it just goes on and on and on. I mean, literally, the Fratens in Rhode Island. Uh, there' ; s just most of the big distilled spirits, distributors, wholesalers, that we did business with, were A, family owned, B, Jewish family owned, and C, we did multigenerational business with them. In other words, Max' ; s father probably started doing business with his peer at the family at the time, and then Max similarly was then doing business perhaps with the son, and--and on and on. So, um, that, I think, is what he was speaking to. That this relat--that this business really was built on relationships between families. Now, as I mention, that has--a lot of that has changed, really, for all intents and purposes, at the wholesale or--or distributor level, there' ; s been an enormous amount of consolidation. Southern Wine and Spirits, Glazer' ; s, Republic, Young' ; s Market. There' ; s three or four that have taken over everybody else. Here in Kentucky, for instance, we used to be Crown Distributing, uh, owned by the Levitch family that we' ; ve done business with since Max' ; s father started doing business with, um--with the Levitches' ; father, uh, in 1940. Um, they are now part of Southern Wine--they' ; re now Southern Wine and Spirits of Kentucky. So, um, but that--that was what Max was talking about, that our customers generally are family owned companies, many of them Jewish family owned companies, and these relationships, most of which did not involve anything other than a handshake. Very few contracts, anything like that, were built on this kind of, uh, uh, trust and relationship. WALDMAN: And yet, what was interesting in the hour-long interview with--with, uh, Max, if you do a keyword search, the word " ; Jewish" ; doesn' ; t appear once--(laughs)--and yet there' ; s lots of mention of these distribution networks, and family, and education, and any-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- WALDMAN: --and anyone who' ; s kind of tuned in to try and hear that subtext can kind of read into it. But w--why do you think that there was no mention o--of that explicitly? KASS: Well, uh, you know, I mean, uh, because, you know, I mean, I--I think--I think there' ; s a couple reasons. One, I think it partly has to do with the personality. Max is somebody that--that, uh, business is business with Max. And--and, um, the reason that we have the relationships with many of these people is--is obviously the family relationship types of things. The reason we continue to have relationships with them is because we do business together, we do profitable business together, we work well together. And at a certain level, that has nothing to do with being Jewish. That has simply to do with business. So, um--so while that certainly is the underpinnings of a lot of the r--the formations and the, uh--the kind of maintenance of those relationships, really, to a certain extent, as far as Max is concerned, that' ; s almost neither here nor there, because it' ; s all about are we doing good business by you, are you doing good business by us? So I suspect that that has a lot to do with it. Um, and it' ; s--it' ; s purely a personality thing. I mean, you know, uh, we have a big wholesaler convention every year. And we would meet with our wholesalers, and many of them would be the families, family members that I' ; m talking about from sons or, uh, multiple generational relationships. And some would come in and start throwing Yiddish phrases around, and boychik and this and that. And some wouldn' ; t, and it' ; s--it' ; s purely, I think, a function of kind of how your personality is as to how much you dial that type of thing up. Uh, Max tends not to dial it up a whole lot. I mean, he' ; s, uh--you know, uh, it' ; s just his nature. Uh, and, uh--and--and I think partly a reflection of the fact that the--you know, he sees the company has, um, the--the portfolio, the profitability of the company, all those types of things, very much in line with everybody else' ; s major suppliers who are not Jewish-owned. So that probably has something to do with it. WALDMAN: He also mentioned a lot about how he would go to parties, and people would ask what he does for a living, and they' ; d be kind of captured by the art and mystery of bourbon? KASS: Yeah. WALDMAN: Could--could you un--what--what does that mean to you? What is the art and mystery of--of bourbon production? KASS: Well, what Max said--and--and this kind of speaks to it. And--and he--he says this all the time, and it' ; s very, very, true, is that basically, if you are sitting in a cocktail party, and you' ; re--you' ; re talking to somebody, and they ask you what you do, and you say, " ; I' ; m a doctor, I' ; m a lawyer, I' ; m in insurance." ; " ; Oh, that' ; s interesting," ; then they take a sip of their drink and you tell them, " ; I--I make bourbon." ; You know, " ; Really? Tell me more about that." ; You know, I mean, it' ; s--it' ; s just--it' ; s one of those things that just tends to kind of, e--lead to more questions. And interest is just--it' ; s just a little bit different and a little bit kind of interesting. And--and so, you know, I think that is a lot, kind of, what--uh, of what he meant there. There' ; s a certain pride, I think, um, also, in--in being in the bourbon industry. Particularly nowadays. There maybe was not so much (laughs) probably 10, uh, 20 years ago. But, um, you know, it' ; s interesting, they--and we' ; ll probably talk a bit more about this, but certainly, we are--are having a great go at it right now. And, um, uh, uh, uh, Senator Stivers, uh, who is a--a prominent state senator here, um, really has talked about kind of what a signature industry is in the state of Kentucky. And it' ; s--and it' ; s an industry that is both growing, economically growing, and is one that you can talk about, and feel good talking about. And if you think about a lot of the quote-unquote signature industries in here in Kentucky--coal, tobacco, horseracing--they don' ; t meet those criteria, both of them. Bourbon does, and--and so, um, eh, there is a certain pride, I think, when you can--particularly for people that are not from here, when you can talk about the fact that you are in Kentucky and you are making bourbon, and making it well. Um, so there' ; s a--there' ; s a certain kind of real, um, pride in--in doing that, and--and--and--and I think from a--you know, re--reciprocal standpoint, interest in--in people hearing about that as well, so-- WALDMAN: And I as--I watched an interview, uh, of you recently, when you were talking about how, um, you were in one of the warehouses, and how the bourbon is different from one row. KASS: Um-hm. WALDMAN: Each barrel is kind of its ow, like, snowflake, in essence, of-- KASS: --right, the magic, right, right-- WALDMAN: --of the magic. So is that--is that your experience when you go to places and tell people about what you do for a living? And--and you talk more about the science behind the process? Is that part of the magic? KASS: Eh, I mean, a little bit, for sure. I mean, you know, this--this business is--is kind of--I mean, eh, when I was in adv--a--in the advertising business, I worked on kind of, you know, lots of different products, credit cards, and yogurt, and everything in the world. And, you know, this business is really--it' ; s just layered, it' ; s just got so much great stuff in it. I mean, it' ; s got so much great history. I--I mean, it' ; s got, um, these crazy characters, these amazing figures, these--um, it' ; s got these places. Um, it' ; s got a sense of place itself, because there' ; s distilleries themselves, uh, in locations with great names. And, um, i--it' ; s--it' ; s got a whole lingo and language unto itself that' ; s just interesting. WALDMAN: What are some of your favorite names? KASS: Uh, people' ; s names, or l--lingo, like-- WALDMAN: Both. Both. FERNHEIMER: Both. KASS: Um, let' ; s see. Uh, well, the lingo, I can tell you, there' ; s--th--there' ; s just great words. Uh, uh, like, um, the--there' ; s just a language unto itself with bourbon, f--and some of it doesn' ; t make any sense at all, and you don' ; t really question it, you just go on. Um, like, here' ; s a great one. Um, single barrel bourbons nowadays have become very, very popular. And, you know, before single barrel bourbons were around, basically, those were the barrels--the best barrels in the warehouses, that he warehousemen or the master distillers kind of knew, that' ; s the really good barrel to sit up on the third or fourth rick in the southwest corner of brick house z. So generally, if somebody wanted to take a little bit of whiskey out of the barrel, they would go to one of those better barrels. And you could tell where the good barrels were in the warehouse, because the barrels below the good barrels, the warehousemen would rub up against to--to--on--to take some whiskey out of the barrel above it. So they would call those " ; shiners." ; --(laughs)--You look for a shiner, because their overalls or whatever they were wearing, would eventually shine the side of the barrel, because they kept rubbing up against it. So they said, you look for the shiners, and the one above the shiner would be the good barrel. I--you know, I just--I just think stuff like that' ; s just very cool, you know? Um, if bourbon, by--by definition, obviously, it' ; s got alcohol, high alcohol in it. As long as you keep your--your bourbon sealed, um, uh, closed, um, the alcohol will not escape, and it will stay forever, um, because alcohol will prevent anything bad from going in there. If you don' ; t put the top on tight, or if the cork leaks a little bit, and the alcohol starts to be able to leave, the alcohol will eventually leave, and you essentially just have this grain liquid, and then bad things can grow in it. And when that starts to happen, if you' ; ve ever seen a bottle of bourbon that--that' ; s happened to, it gets this stuff in it. And for some reason, the old timers refer to that as " ; mother." ; I have no idea where that comes from, but that' ; s what they called it. It looked like this mass of st--it' ; s just weird phrases like that that you kind of come across in the business that are just interesting. You know, and--and the business itself is so, um, you know, p--uh, we talk about this little--a little while, but part of the reason that I think bourbon is just so popular right now is, you know, everybody' ; s into kind of artisanal, slow food, locavore, you know, how is--organic, how is everything made? Um, and bourbon just checks all of those boxes, just by definition, because it has to by--by government definition. And--and so, um, you know, i--it just plays so well in that space right now, and that' ; s such a--kind of a popular space to be in right now, that it' ; s just nice that we' ; ve always been there, and the world has kind of come around to us. And so you start to layer on that history, and sense of place, and the characters, and the language, and you start to get a pretty--a pretty just interesting solt--uh, social, cultural phenomenon, and a very cool one, I would argue, as well. That' ; s--that' ; s kind of--is really popular right now. WALDMAN: Yeah. One of the more interesting terms I think related to the industry is, um, about rectifiers. Could--could you define what a rectifier is, and is there a correlation between rectifiers and--and Jewish purveyors? Or are they separate? KASS: Um, well, y--you know, th--this has to do with, kind of, back in the day, uh, because, um, the distilled spirits world, I would say, before--well, before prohibition, but really before the turn of the century, was a pretty wild and wooly place. There was not a lot of regulation, there was not a lot of control. So, um, uh, i--in order to make your whiskey taste good, um, it may not be well made, but you wanted to--to be able to sell it, so you had to find ways, oftentimes, to make less than I--less than great whiskey palatable. So that was the idea of rectification, was to rectify whiskey which was not good. And you' ; ve--you read that they would--rectifiers, and this was back in the day, and a lot of it was unscrupulous, illegal, dangerous, everything from prune juice to tobacco juice, to iodine, whatever they might add to the whiskey to try and get it to taste better. That was the--the theory behind rectifying whiskey. That all completely went away, really with the Pure Food and Drug Act. And then the Taft Act of 1912, which kind of defined what we--between those two, and the Bottled-In-Bond Act. Between those, it kind of eliminated the possibility of people doing nefarious things to the supply chain, which is basically what rectification was. So, um, at our Evan Williams Bourbon Experience, uh--uh, visitors attraction here in Downtown Louisville, we, um, have a--uh, uh, a recreation of what Whiskey Row here in Louisville looked like in--in the late, uh, nineteenth century. And there were a lot of rectifiers around then, so we have several rectifier offices. And we talk about--uh, about rectification, and kind of what it was, so-- WALDMAN: And do you--was there a higher proportion of Jewish peddlers at that point? KASS: To that point, well, you know, really, again, um, prior to prohibition, when the distilled spirits distribution world was different, you had a situation where, uh, uh a co--uh, a company or family that was producing whiskey, people would come to the distillery and essentially fill, uh, either buy bar--full barrels, or fill large jugs of some sort, and take those back to their store or retail establishment. And then customers would come in, then with their own jugs or other types of--of vessels, and fill those. Um, so that whole three-tier system that we talked about earlier really didn' ; t exist back then. It was very, kind of, uh, wild and wooly in terms of what--what happened. Between that and rectification, you really didn' ; t quite know what you were getting. But, um, y--you--you had a lot of--of--because there were kind of many tiers of the business back then, um, there were Jews that were involved, certainly at the retail level. And we know that there were a lot of--of Jewish families here in Louisville that owned retail establishments that sold basically their own. It was, like, private label whiskey. They would take their own, buy a barrel from a distiller, and put their old--old cornflower, or whatever it might be, label on it. And so there were many families that were doing that here in Louisville. Um, and there certainly were a number of families that were in--Jewish families that were involved in the rectifying business as well. Um, there were, at that point, a number of Jewish families that were actually on the supply side, on the producer side as well. Um, so well known, aside from, uh, people like the Bernheims, who were, you know, obviously very well known. There were a number of other, uh, prominent Jewish families that actually, uh, were whiskey makers. Um, so you had a lot of this involvement in rectification, in retailing, in--in wholesaling and distribution, and in the supply side, um, from Jewish families, really prior to prohibition. Um, once pro--prohibition and the depression and the war, and that kind of tripleheader hit, it really locked--knocked a lot of people in general that were in the distilled--distilled spirits business out of the business entirely. But obviously, a lot of the Jewish people that were as well. And many of them never came back in. Um, a--as was the case in--a lot, in--in other industries, it was about that time, really, World War II, post-World War II, when a lot of the Jewish families really said, " ; Time to become lawyers and doctors now." ; So a lot of them turned more to the professions than to the--the kind of wholesaler mercantile business at that point. Prior to that, though, there were many, many, many Jewish families that were involved, uh, in the retail--retail side. FERNHEIMER: Can I jump in for one second? So you mentioned our conversation prior to this conversation, where you talked a little bit about the three-tier system. But just for the purposes of the interview, if you could re--rehash some of that, and--and about how that--that changed after the war into this, what we now know as the three-tier system. KASS: Sure. Um, yeah, I mean, (clears throat) distilled spirits is, um, really a bit of a kind of a--an anachronism or a dinosaur baby in terms of consumer package goods. We' ; re the only, um, consumer package goods that--that has this, um, non-bendable, completely inflexible three-tier system that we operate under. As a supplier, a distilled spirits manufacturer, we are required by law to only sell to wholesalers, distributors. They' ; re the same thing. Um, i--in the case of a control state, like Ohio, or Virginia, North Carolina, where the state controls the sale and distribution of distilled spirits, we sell directly to the state. But we have to sell to that wholesale, that middle tier. That middle tier then can sell to retailers and to what we call on premise bars and restaurants. Um, the bars and restaurants and retailers then sell to the consumers. So I' ; ve always said, we call it a three-tier system , but really it' ; s a four-tier system, you kind of got to include the consumers, the end user in it, but that' ; s the way it works. I mean, as a supplier, we sell it to wholesalers, wholesalers have to sell them to retailers, and--and bars and restaurants. Bars and restaurants are the ones that then sell to consumers. So there' ; s--there are these firewalls between them that, um, for somewhat anachronistic reasons now, um, but still, somewhat useful, many would argue, um, have remained. And so, um, that, uh--the way this distilled spirit system is set up, um, i--i--first of all, it' ; s very different from the way it was before prohibition and--and the Depression and the war. So once this was set up, it--it really did change the game and change the players that were in it. And as I mentioned, many of them that were in it prior to it got out of it. But it also kind of set us on this course to, um--to be fairly rigid. I--it' ; s--it--you know, uh, the world has changed so much in 50, 60 years. And really the way distilled spirits are sold has not changed a whole lot. It' ; s been modernized, certain aspects of it, but really, there' ; s not been a whole lot of changes to the system. Um, uh, the state of Washington, which used to be a control state, basically privatized a few years ago. That' ; s about the biggest thing that' ; s happened. Um, it' ; s remained fairly s--stable and status quo since then. Um, that makes a lot of us happy, that makes others unhappy. Um, and--and so we' ; ll kind of see where that all nets out, but as of right now, that--that definitely makes us a little bit different than everybody else, and kind of keeps those--those--the business very siloed in that way. Does that answer your question? (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Yeah. WALDMAN: Um, so, on a--on a personal note, what--what--what piqued our interest in the--in the topic of the role of Jews in the bourbon industry was both of us have--took visits to the, um--the Bourbon Heritage Center in Bardstown. KASS: Um-hm. WALDMAN: And it was with a scrutinizing eye--because we both come from academic, uh, realms--where we noticed the Beams coming together to form Maganda Beams. KASS: Right. WALDMAN: Um, so can you--can you talk a little bit about how that was clearly a conscious decision by the designers, and I assume, Harry and Max? KASS: Um-hm. WALDMAN: Can you talk more about how other kind of aspects of Judaism influenced the creation of a heritage center? And then also, even the way with Evan Williams, you' ; ve created a kind of an experiential moment to help tell the story of bourbon. And as a people, we' ; re known of--you know, we' ; re--we' ; re storytellers. Every holiday, you know, we--that' ; s that joke. KASS: Um-hm. WALDMAN: You tried to kill us, we survived, let' ; s eat. KASS: Right, right. WALDMAN: So h--how does--how does that play into these two kind of really important aspects of kind of--of--of preserving the history of bourbon as a whole within this, uh, region, but--but also kind of the Jewish angle into that? KASS: Um, you know, in terms of kind of how Judaism manifests itself in - -in our company and--and in, say, in the Bourbon Heritage Center, you were very observant to--to see the Star of David there in the dot. Um, there' ; s not a lot of very overt, um--I mean, i--i--i--there' ; s just not a lot of kind of Jewishness about--necessarily about our brands, our companies. As a matter of fact, interestingly enough--and this kind of goes to another topic, the Is--the whole idea of Isaac Bernheim and--and Jews making whiskey but never being able to name the whiskey after themselves. The sold story about Isaac Bernheim, of course, is he had this great brand of whiskey, but he dare not name it Bernheim. He took the name of his attorney in Lexington, Mr. Harper, gave it his first two initials, Isaac Wolfe. IW Harper became his brand. Um, but so the--you know, the influence of Judaism is, uh, I would say subtle. Um, I mean, uh, so if--if you look at the Bourbon Heritage Center, you' ; re not going to see a whole lot of, you know, here' ; s a display on how the Shapiras, you know, coexisted with Judaism and--and you just don' ; t see that. Um, because as I said before, I really--it--it just--it--it hasn' ; t been a business b--probably because, again, what we talked about earlier, the fact that there--the--a lot of our customers were Jewish. It was never really an issue, it was just how business was done. It was just business as usual. So--but that being said, I mean, I think, uh--uh, clearly, it, you know, it--it informs--I mean, everything that I--particularly the family that owns the company, the Shapiras, have done. Um, the idea of--of kind of capturing stories and capturing history from--from Evan Williams, that--that your--your point is--is--is spot on there. Um, first of all, the challenge for us with the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience with that visitor center. I mean, we had the other visitor center in Bardstown, and like the other--our--our competitor' ; s visitor center, it' ; s at a big campus, big distillery. And while, here' ; s warehouses, and here' ; s bottling houses, and here' ; s finished goods warehouses. And it' ; s all this grandeur, and huge spaces, and lots of buildings. Well, we decided to build something at 6th and Main, in a little shotgun building, obviously, that whole model goes out the window. So we--we said, okay, how are we going to deliver the most powerful visitor experience here? It' ; s going to be about Evan Williams, it' ; s going to be about, uh, the--the--the man, the nameship of our flagship brand, but he was also this very important figure in the history of Louisville. So, um, we--we kind of did this immersive, uh, experience there where we said we--we--you know, we don' ; t have a huge campus. We can' ; t drive people around, we' ; ve got a shotgun building. The good thing about a shotgun building is this linear--you go straight back, you can tell a story, you come back the other way, you can tell more of a story. So that' ; s kind of what we did. And, um, so yea, we, uh--it' ; s very much about, kind of, initially, particularly about Evan Williams the man and--and, uh - -and, uh--uh, kind of, the role that he played as a figure in Louisville, as a--as a harbormaster and member of the Town Council. Um, and, uh, conveniently, as a--as a distiller of whiskey, we were able to kind of work both of those into the story. So--so, you know, these--uh, the--you know, the story of Evan Williams is one that we felt had not been really told from a historical, kind of, cultural s--uh, standpoint here. Um, you know, we always joked that we had this, um, uh, historical marker there at was kind of on 4th Street in front of the Vault House for many, many years, recognizing Evan Williams as the first, you know, commercial distiller, and is kind of where his still was. It actually wasn' ; t quite near there at all. So we--(laughs)--we had it moved after we opened the Evan Williams center to pretty much where it was at 6th and--and Main there. And, uh, but my--my point there is we' ; ve always had them. My--the marker was there, long before we decided to build the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience. The--the--the--you know, the story was there. He was there, he put his--he built his still there. He was this important guy. So a lot of our brands--Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna, Fitzgerald, Dant, I mean, I could go on and on. Their--the--the story of those is really about his--key bourbon figures, kind of, forefathers in--in the bourbon business. So, um, that also means that when we' ; re talking the stories of our brands, we' ; re telling the stories of these old guys. So not a lot of Jewishness that necessarily works its way. (laughs) When we' ; re talking about Elijah Craig, the Baptist minister from Scott County. It' ; s not something that seems to--seems to--seems to bubble up much in the story. Clearly, when we talk about the company, it' ; s a little bit of a different animal, but that' ; s, uh-- WALDMAN: And you mentioned--so you' ; ve mentioned a lot of interesting things. You talk about forefathers, and you talked about really unique personalities. Where do the women fit into this equation? You know, the cliché is behind every strong man there' ; s a stronger woman. KASS: Right, right, right. A--and again, this will come up, but hopefully you have the chance to--to speak to--to Anne Shapira, who was the, uh--the widow of one of the five founding brothers. But she--she--she ta--I' ; ve heard her talk at length about this. Um, you know, (laughs) the--the women--you know, and it' ; s interesting. You know, you got to understand this was certainly a--a different time back then. So the--the kind of influence that they could wield, and how they wielded that influence, was perhaps different than how it would be wielded or--or talked about now. But she always talks about how, you know, the--the--the brothers would get together, they--they just were so myopic and so tunnel vision on--on their business that, I mean, they--like, she would talk about they' ; d--they' ; d go--they' ; d do their sales meeting, and they' ; d literally, very fancy sales meeting, they--they' ; d get out a loaf of bread, they' ; d get out, like, a piece of salami. (laughs) They' ; d get out a jar of pickles, and they' ; d get out some newspaper. And they' ; d put the newspaper down on the table, and they' ; d start eating food. And--and she would come in and just see what they were doing. And she' ; d--oh my God! You know, and it--oh my God, you know? And it--and it just--it was more that--that--the--the--the women trying to keep the men normal, on track. Keeping their lives together, because they were so focused, probably to the exclusion of so many other things on just trying to keep their business going. Um, they just--a--and again, Max will certainly be able to speak to this better than I, but my--my--my very real sense is that, you know, the role they played was very much a--keeping their--the normalcy in their husbands' ; lives and their families' ; lives while these guys pursued this business. That was not a--first of all, not a--necessarily a traditional Jewish business, being a producer or distiller of spirits. A--and secondly, a business that was just, by itself, very--very kind of all consuming. So, um--so that' ; s the sense that I get when you--you kind of hear about the--you know, the kind of, um, honest broker, common sense role that they played in steering them away from this world that they just were in. And--and saying, have you thought about all these things? WALDMAN: You--you never heard of any other, um, more active roles of what--women in the industry? Whether in bottling or marketing? I know there' ; s the myth of Maker' ; s Mark wife coming up with the red wax. Are there any other-- KASS: There--so you' ; re talking about in general, not just Jewish? Right? WALDMAN: Either or. Either or. KASS: Well, y--I mean, if you go back to Scotland, actually, um, interestingly enough, women, um, traditionally, and--and--and I give a lot of credence to this. Women are supposedly better nosers and tasters than men. They supposedly have better olfactory senses. So there were s--a number of women, particularly the scotch business that were kind of--Bessie Williamson is a very, very famous one. But she, you know, who just had wonderful s--sense of taste and--and smell, and were very, very important in terms of kind of, um, uh, organoleptic is the word that they like to use. You know, testing, and--and--and making sure that things a--are g--are as they should be, and determining when things are--are of proper age. So there' ; s always kind of been that role. I mean, it' ; s very interesting. It has been a--clearly, the whiskey--the distilled spirits business itself. If the stories that I' ; ve heard of what it was like 40 years ago, to say it was a chauvinistic business would be, uh, a gross understatement. It was very much a man' ; s business for many, many years. Um, that clearly has changed a lot in so many different ways and on so many different levels. And all those different tiers that I talked about on women are--are absolutely, um, uh, have absolutely, uh, you know, equaled or surpassed men in many ways. But for many, many years, this was not exactly an--an equal opportunity business. Kate, uh, uh, Latts, who' ; s Max' ; s daughter, s--you know, when she' ; s been with the company probably 15, 16 years now. She kind of noticed pretty quickly that when she would go to a lot of the kind of executive level meetings, there certainly were not a lot of women in those meetings. Certainly more now, more and more now than there ever have been, and--and certainly she can tell you about that. But, um, so, you know, i--it' ; s--the business is changing a lot. Um, and, uh, you know, nowadays, the role that women play, uh, runs the gamut, I mean, from management roles to, um--to more of the lab, technical sensory roles. I mean, so it' ; s--it' ; s all across the board. Um, you know, a number of years where that was not the case, where women had influence, was--was areas where they--they--they could have influence, and--and certainly one of those was in terms of--of tasting. WALDMAN: Are you also familiar with Maria the Hebrea, or Maria the Jewess, who' ; s considered to be the inventor of the-- FERNHEIMER: --the still-- WALDMAN: --the still? KASS: I haven' ; t heard this one, no. Where--where--where is--where is-- WALDMAN: She' ; s from Alexandra, Egyptian, ba--we' ; re talking, like, thousands of years. KASS: Okay. Yeah, yeah. It' ; s because distillation actually was--it does go back either to the Moors or to the Egyptians. WALDMAN: She' ; s apparently credited as being the creator of the--of the still. KASS: Well, uh, you know, typically, distillation--I mean, distillation was used to make perfume. It was used to make medicines-- WALDMAN: --exactly-- KASS: --it was used to make so many different things that kind of the idea of making alcohol with it was almost a--an afterthought, really. But, uh, yeah, I--you know, I mean, um, uh, (laughs) you know, I--Kate, at this point, really, if you want to talk about somebody. Again, we' ; re--we' ; re in a different time right now, but--but Kate certainly has been here at time when, you know, she' ; s the one that runs basically all the marketing programs here. And, uh--and she, uh, certainly has i--is--I--I think it' ; s safe to say one of the more high positioned women in this--in the--in the business right now. And, um--and--and she' ; s, uh--uh, in and of hers--uh, in and of itself, has seen a--a pretty big seat change, and kind of the numbers of women and--and the--and the influence of women in just the 15 or 16 years that she' ; s been here. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So i--it' ; s interesting that you--you--you shift the conversation to Kate and--and--and come back to the importance of family. One of the things that struck me--(laughs) perhaps this is the moment I' ; m in--in--in my own personal life, uh, with a new baby. And yesterday, we were stuck in the archives, uh, had a baby on my back, because the babysitter of course canceled at the last minute.--(laughs)--But Max beings--uh, he talks about this moment, how deeply engrained he was in the family business that obviously, he was too young to recall this memory. It must ha--have been a story told to him, but how he was a baby swaddled, uh, with his parents at the bottling plant? And--but he distinctly talks about both of his parents being there. And so it wasn' ; t just--a--and--and you sort of allude to this in the way that, you know, you talk about nineteenth century women' ; s ways, and the ways that women influence men. But both his parents were at the plant, and so it clearly was a kind of family, um--it was important to both parents in the family. And we look forward to speaking with Anne, uh, very soon. But I wonder if there were other women in the family who--who kind of appear in those sideways ways that women often do in these types of stories, at least in the past. Uh, at the plant, with the baby. Uh, walking in and making sure that they' ; re eating dinner, or that, you know-- KASS: --sure, right, right, right-- FERNHEIMER: --they have something other than the pickles. KASS: Well, you know, I mean, uh, family business being what it is, the family never stops thinking about the business. I mean, and I certainly know that it was that--that was the case with the Shapiras. There were five of them, five brothers with--you know, all of them except one married with families. So, I mean, there was a whole network, there that--that, if nothing else, relied (laughs) on the distillery for everything. Um, the--their--their Sunday night dinners were, for instance, always kind of, uh, um, you know, the subject of--interestingly enough, they always had a Sunday night dinner that--that was the subject of lots of legend. And the Beam family, as well, are distillers. They also did a Sunday night dinner that I always heard lots of stories about. But they would always get together. Um, you know, the--the stories that I would hear would--I think were probably pretty typical of--of these types of families and situations. They never not--they never didn' ; t talk about business. I mean, it--it was never--there was never a sense of, " ; Okay, we' ; re getting together for a holiday, for this, that, whatever. You know, we don' ; t talk about business, it was just--it was just ever bit of their being was so wrapped up in it that that was just what they did all the time. Um, I suspect--and again, because of that--Max, you know, he tell--tells the stories about, you know, when he was real young about how he got to open the gates up for the trucks-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- KASS: --and things like that, and what a cool thing that was for a little kid to do. And--and, you know, I' ; m sure the reason he did that was his dad had to be able to play it, and his mother maybe went with her father to--for whatever reason, and Max had to go as well. And so again, that was one of those situations where, you know, I--I say this more often about our distillers, the Beams and anything, but it' ; s like, you know, the--the--the whiskey doesn' ; t take a day off. So the distiller can' ; t take a day off. Really, the--the guy that owns the company can' ; t take a day off either. I mean, Max, to this day, he goes in--he' ; s gone in every Saturday, at least--and he goes on some Sundays, but he' ; s going in every Saturday, I mean, for 40 years. Every Saturday, he goes in. As a matter of fact, he loves going in Saturdays because it' ; s quiet, and he can get all this work done, and I get a million messages and emails and things from him on Saturdays because that' ; s when he goes and gets stuff done. So it' ; s a family-owned company, they live, eat, and breathe it. I think that--that went everywhere, the--the wives knew that, knew that the husbands were doing that. Not only provided support so that they could do that, but--but were there themselves, um-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- KASS: --to--to--to--to be at the businesses, so-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And to continue on the family business line, you mentioned, when you were talking about all of the ways that Jewish families were involved in the business, uh, before prohibition, and since we' ; re at the beginning of the research path right now, I wonder if you might be able to share some of the specifics of the names of the Jewish families that were involved before prohibition. And I wonder if you might do a wonderful rendition of that lovely song you recalled to us-- KASS: --oh no, no, no-- FERNHEIMER: --before. The--the--the video was rolling, because it was fabulous.--(laughs)--Uh, and it' ; s also a great way to--to help t--um, trigger the memory about those names. KASS: (laughs) Well, I mean, I' ; m going to have to--I' ; m going to have to go to my cheat sheet here. But, um, yeah, (laughs) uh, I got to keep my mouth shut next time.--(laughs)--The, uh--no, the--the--the--the--(laughs) I--uh, I--I, you know, kind of have done this present, you know, when we--again, to our--the earlier point about how topical and interested people have become in the past five, ten years, and kind of the role of--of, uh, distilled spirits and bourbon in Judaism, um, uh, I' ; ve ended up kind of talking to people about, you know, the different families that were involved in the different types of businesses. And--and it--it does end up with this list of--you know, this laundry list of Jewish names. And, uh--and the reference that I was making so that--so that people don' ; t think I' ; m completely crazy is--is you' ; re--you' ; re going to need to--to--to--to reference this, and--and Google it, but it' ; s the famous s--Jewish comedian-singer named, uh, Allan Sherman, uh, who--who, uh--who did, uh, " ; Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah, here I am in Camp Granada." ; That' ; s what most people know him for. But on that same album--which is, I believe, called My Son, the Folk Singer, um, there is a song called " ; Shake Hands with your Uncle Max," ; I believe it' ; s called. Um, and it' ; s basically about him being a salesman, and he goes away, and he comes back, and his mother has all his friends and family there, and it' ; s this whole laundry list of Stein with an e-i, Styn with a y, and Tidelman, Tidelbaum, Tidel--you know, all the--all the names. So, but i--if you look at the--the--the--the--retailers, on Main and Market Street, you have Rosenthals, Frankels, Blocks, Levys, Oppenheimers, Rosenbaums, Blooms, Flexners, Glogowers, Kleins, Loventhals, Kahns, Jacobs. Um, all families that, uh, had retail businesses, um, as I mentioned, selling whiskey, that they would bring in in a--probably a barrel from--from a--uh, a, uh--a supplier. So, um, wholesalers, uh, backrow Blot, Goldberg. Rectifiers, you had Rosenbaum, Dreyfus, Weiss, Simon, Greenbaum, Martin Hirsch, Louis Levy, IK Isaacs. So, um, again, uh, a lot of, kind of, um, fairly traditional Jewish names, but, uh, a lot of families here that--uh, that kind of trace the l--their business back to, at some point or another, distilled spirits. FERNHEIMER: And you had mentioned there were even some additional families in the supply side before prohibition. Do you ha--do you remember who those-- KASS: Yeah, yeah. Um, th--they' ; re actually, um, uh, the Barkhouse Family. Um, uh, Lo--and actually, the Barkhouse--Louis Barkhouse was the president of the Temple f--in the 1880s. Uh, the Sachs Family, the Schwartz Family. I--I could tell you all their brands, but these were all families--um, the Grabfelder family as well-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- KASS: --um, and Sam--not only was Samuel Grabfelder a--another president of the temple in the 1890s, but Max' ; s wife Ellen is related to the Grabfelders-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- KASS: --as I found out after we started to do all this, they said, " ; Oh, you know, Ellen' ; s actually a Gra--uh, a Grabfelder. So, um, so those are a lot of the families that--that were involved in making whiskey, primarily prior to prohibition. Um, post Prohibition, um, a lot of them, uh--uh, of course, there were the Bernheims as well, but, um, the Shapiras, actually, in terms of the ones that really kind of lasted post Prohibition. Then you had, you know, um, Jewish families that--that obviously ran Seagram' ; s company, with the Bronfman family. Um, the Schenley Company was run--w--was run by the Rosenstiel Family. Um, the, uh, Publicker, uh, Company was another very large. That was the--the Publicker family. All Jewish families. FERNHEIMER: And so speaking of Jewish families, and--who' ; s still in the business and the--who' ; s still around that, uh, if you have suggestions, obviously, Kate and Anne are very high (laughs) in our list of where to go next. But, uh, outside the Shapira family and outside the Bernheim family, that we know about, are there other people that you would recommend that we should definitely not miss talking to? KASS: Sure. FERNHEIMER: There' ; s a good double negative for you. (laughs) KASS: (laughs) Um, you--you--y--uh, you should definitely talk to the Levitch Family. Um, you know, in terms of--of, uh, the wholesalers. Um, they' ; ve been there and involved in the business, uh, for multiple generations. Um, so they are--are--are certainly a--uh, an important family for you to talk to. Um, other than that, uh a--and I--and I--did we mention--I mentioned Tom Block as well-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- KASS: --who' ; s, uh--uh, the Bernheim' ; s family' ; s, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --Bernheim-- KASS: --uh, yeah, I think those are--those are probably the--the ones I think that--that, f--in terms of the continuity to today, probably, uh, are--are the ones you should--you should talk to. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WALDMAN: Okay. So we' ; re going to end on a--on a slightly different note. So yesterday, we--um, we went to the temple, and we met with Sydney- KASS: --um-hm-- WALDMAN: --and y--she sh--she gave us access to, um, some of the archival, uh, information and--and images. And--and we came across this image, um, of an advertisement from Bernheim. And I' ; m hoping you can put on your marketing/advertising hat, and--and kind of tell us what you think this image, who it' ; s trying to sell to, and what this image is about. KASS: Hmm. I' ; ve never seen this before. Did--was this part of the--I guess I probably have seen it. FERNHEIMER: It was in the same boxes. Unlike Max, who was swaddled, I had my son in one of those baby carriers on my back, and he was reaching in to look at these archival materials. (laughs) WALDMAN: And of--of all of the images that I found, I--I found this one to be very striking. Um-- KASS: Boy, it is really hard to say what this image could have been. I mean, it looks like a wedding, is that what it is? FERNHEIMER: That was our best guess. WALDMAN: But it' ; s--it' ; s, uh, clearly an advertisement for Prosperity Whiskey. KASS: Prosperity Whiskey. WALDMAN: But with--with such a pronounced African American, you know-- KASS: --um-hm-- WALDMAN: --uh, image there. Clearly, Bernheim was marketing to a specific demographic. Or what do--what do you think? KASS: Oh, it' ; s interesting. It says, " ; Complements of Bernheim Distributors." ; That is interesting. Uh, I--the--y--I mean, I--I almost wonder if this was a quote-unquote " ; advertisement," ; per se. I mean-- FERNHEIMER: What else would--would you imagine it might have been? KASS: I--I mean, I don' ; t know--I--I don' ; t know if it--it as a--uh, it--it seems strange that they would put " ; Complements of Bernheim" ; on that. That just seems a strange wording, for some reason. Uh, I--you know, I can' ; t begin to fathom a guess as to what this is. I mean, it--it seems fairly contrived. I mean, it seems fairly posed and set up, whatever it is. Um, I--I--it' ; s hard for me to say what this could be. Uh, I mean, I guess it' ; s somebody' ; s vision of prosperity. (laughs) That' ; s the best guess I can say. Um, oh, that' ; s interesting. I mean, you don' ; t see a lot of--of kind of cross-cultural advertising like that. You don' ; t see a lot of--oh. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I--I mean, because you mentioned, kind of, the old boys' ; club. And so it' ; s--it' ; s intriguing to try and understand, you know, the role of African Americans, and Native Americans, and women, and kind of people who clearly were involved in this industry, but their story isn' ; t necessarily told so often. KASS: No, and particularly not in--in anything that is promotional of any sort like that. Um, yeah, I--I--you know, I--I' ; m really hard pressed, and--and, you know, I--that would be one that I would be interested to hear what a Mike Veitch, uh, historian, or even a Tom Block, who' ; s a relative of the Bernheims, whether-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- KASS: --what his take on that might be. He might say, " ; Hmm, I--I' ; ll need to get back to you on that one." ; But--but that' ; s interesting, I hadn' ; t seen--I--don' ; t recall seeing that, actually, so, thank you. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: We--we--well, do you have more ques-- WALDMAN: That' ; s all I have. FERNHEIMER: I--we' ; re--just want to close by thanking you so much for spending an afternoon talking with us, and helping us get on the record some of the tremendous institutional knowledge that you have. Um, we began the conversation before the conversation talking about the importance of--of compilation, of assembling material. And, um, something that you said during this interview really s--stood out to me, which his that it was so much a part of the business, that you didn' ; t have to talk about it, that it--it was just understood. And yet, i--if you' ; re an outsider coming into this industry, or if you' ; re someone coming through the Bourbon Heritage Museum and you don' ; t look up in the tasting room, you might never know that. KASS: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And so that was part of the--our motivation for meeting with you today, to get some of this onto the public record. KASS: Sure, sure. FERNHEIMER: And we' ; re just very grateful that you were willing to meet with us, and spend this much time talking to us. And--and we' ; re delighted to--to leave with a puzzle that hopefully, we' ; ll all get to begin to solve together! KASS: Yeah. I mean, you know, I--I--I feel like again, you know, there are so many other people you can talk to that are more primary-type source that-- FERNHEIMER: And we look forward to doing that, too! KASS: Yeah. You know, Max will really be able to--to tell you more about, obviously, (laughs) more about the insights in terms of--of his family and how they chose to dial up or not dial up their religion within the business context. Uh, so, um, yeah, there--you know, the--the--the good thing is that, you know, the--there are still some really great people for you to talk to with great stories to be told, that need to be recorded. Without a doubt. FERNHEIMER: Okay. KASS: So you all are doing a tremendous service. FERNHEIMER: Oh. Thank you so much. KASS: Okay. FERNHEIMER: All right. Is there anything else that--I always like to ask this question before I officially-officially close, which is, is there anything that we didn' ; t ask you about that you feel like we should know, or that we missed that you want to add to the record before we close it for today? KASS: I--I--I don' ; t think so. N--no, I mean, you know, really, this was more a kind of look back. You know, I mean, there is a lot to be talked about in terms of, kind of, the business to--I mean, because it' ; s--you know, it' ; s--uh, again, this goes back to what I talked about earlier. You know, it' ; s--it' ; s never been--I' ; ve been doing this a while, and it' ; s in this just very incredible phase right now where, you know, we' ; re really near--w--we' ; re--we' ; re just going up, so at some point, clearly, we' ; re going to reach this plateau. But, um, i--i--you know, the--the--bourbon itself just has so much, kind of, cultural cachet right now, and just, from my perspective, I, you know, having tried for so long to get anybody to (laughs) understand what it is, and how it relates to the other whiskies. It--it just is--has been such a--a--kind of an amazing run here for the past five or six years. So I think there' ; s a lot to--to be talked about in terms of, kind of, like, what the--what--what--what' ; s going to happen from now on? You know, what--where the business will go now? Um, you know, what the--the international demand. Uh, that--was that--that whole--right now, we' ; re h--we' ; re struggling to keep our inventories in line, to just supply the domestic market. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. KASS: Um, a few years ago, the--two years ago, actually--the--the--the state always releases the export figures. And--and the--uh, actually, bourbon exports take down by, like, half a percent every day. It' ; s like, (gasps) the bubble' ; s burst. Oh my God, it' ; s the end. No, we just don' ; t have enough-- FERNHEIMER: --supp-- KASS: --juice to send to--to a lot of the international markets. So there' ; s all this building that' ; s going on right now. We' ; re all just spending millions and millions of dollars--you know, we spent $25 million in the past four years on visitors and production facilities. And we have more planned. And so, um, i--it just--the s--uh, it' ; s at this amazing point right now, and we keep on getting asked, you know, i--will it go b--will it continue, will it continue, will it continue? So that' ; s--that whole idea is in--you know, that whole area is an interesting--it' ; s a different subject, a subject we haven' ; t touched a lot on. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. KASS: But, you know, again, there' ; s--there' ; s certainly plenty to look back on, so-- WALDMAN: Well, hopefully, our work can contribute to that part. FERNHEIMER: What-- KASS: I hope so too, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Last follow-up on that. So we talked a lot about the Jewish past involvement in bourbon. And so as--as you bring up this question about the future, I wonder if you might speculate a little bit about the role of that Jewish past in helping to project forward to a-- WALDMAN: More kosher bourbons. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, the--the move to get kashrut ci--certification for bourbon, even though bourbon is a whiskey, so-- KASS: Uh, well, yeah, we' ; re a--believe me, just because it is, as you know-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, I know-- KASS: --it runs through this line, the line' ; s got to be kosher. So that' ; s really where tha--all that comes in. But--but u--oh, I mean, i--wha--you know, you' ; ve never seen more visibility in terms of, kind of--proud visibility in terms of--of Jewish whiskey drinkers. Um, have you all heard about the Jewish whiskey company? Have you all heard about Jewbilee? FERNHEIMER: Yes. KASS: Okay. Um-- FERNHEIMER: But for the record, can you explain a little bit what it is? KASS: Yeah, so I' ; ll actually tell you the origin of Jewbilee. Um, there--there' ; s been this Jewish whiskey company around for a while. And what they' ; ve done is just a bunch of--of, uh, religious, young, Jewish guys, and they did scotch, mostly. And it--this was a--there--there--what are traditionally called merchant bottlers, where this is a--a--a well-established practice in the scotch business, where they' ; ll buy barrels from a distillery, and they will bottle it under their own name, basically, and they' ; ll say this is a barrel from Glenmorangie, or wherever it may be. Um, so that' ; s what the Jewish whiskey started as, just with their own little angle. They were Jewish, and they called themselves the Jewish Whiskey Company, and that was their thing. Um, about five years ago, the biggest whiskey show of the year--um, it' ; s called Whiskey Fest. And they have Whiskey Fests--actually, there are now three--four markets, New York, Chicago, San Francis--no, three markets, New York, Chicago, and San Francisco. And they' ; ve been around for, like, twenty-one, twenty-two years. They' ; ve been around way longer than any other whiskey show has. And the one in New York, just as a--in and of itself, is a good example of kind of the--you know, how--how interested, um, uh, you know, Jews are in whiskey, because there are li--I mean, there' ; s probably two thousand people that come to it, but they' ; re--you just literally see hundreds and hundreds of--of--there' ; s Hasidim there, lots of people with yarmulkes on. There actually is a kosher food section there. So I said, well, that says it all. There' ; s actually a kosher food section at Whiskey Fest. Um, so there' ; s always been this really strong, kind of consumer interest, that' ; s been there. Um, but what happened was Whiskey Fest was always on. New York was traditionally on, like, a Tuesday night. Which, as far as we' ; re concerned, was always a really good night to have it, because, uh, the bar owners could come. If you do it on a weekend, bar owners can' ; t come, because they' ; re too busy trying to--you know, it' ; s a big night for them. So it was always a great night to do it. Well, the guy that runs it, who publishes a--a major whiskey magazine, decided, uh, four years ago or something, to do it over a weekend, and to make it a bigger event, and to separate, have one day of just seminars, and a show, and to really blow it out. And of course, (laughs) um, what became pretty obvious when he announced his intention to do that was, we said, well, what about all these Jewish people that are walking around here? None of them are going to be able to come to the Whiskey Fest. So sure enough, he said, " ; Eh, I know that, but I' ; m going to do this anyway." ; So what happened was the folks behind the Jewish Whiskey Company basically did a protest show against John. Um, and they called it Whiskey Jewbilee.--(laughs)--Uh, and they did it--the first one was at, like, the--was at, like, one of the Jewish centers in, like, I don' ; t know, SoHo or something. It was very small, but it was really crowded, and really--um, and since then, it' ; s kind of--no, since then, John has gone back to not doing over the weekend. But still, Jewbilee has actually managed to kind of keep quite a bit of--of power behind it, and--and has been a--a pretty--a pretty good event. So, um, so, you know, you' ; ve got--you know, we talked earlier about, you know, there' ; s this awareness now, there' ; s articles about, you know, kind of these various synagogues that, instead of, you know, having, you know, bad wine for owning Shabbat, they' ; re serving, you know, 1942 Macallans or whatever. This is, uh, kind of a phenomenon right now. So--so there definitely is, um, a strong interest in contingent. I know, and personally know, a number of people who are either writers or, say, kind of in the business in some way shape or form, who are Jewish and who are very conscious of kind of writing about this, keeping this alive. So i--it' ; s very much a strong undercurrent now that you' ; ve really only felt in the past four or five years. But--but definitely is there, and definitely is growing. And, you know, we--we talk--you know, it' ; s interesting, you know, we--you know, i--I wouldn' ; t say we downplayed it, but we never talked a whole lot about being a Jewish company before, and--and it' ; s not like we lead with that so much either. But--but, you know, I mean, that' ; s a--when you go to New York Whiskey Fest, that' ; s a pretty nice thing to be. So, um, uh, it puts you in a good position. So-- FERNHEIMER: Mm. Well, thanks for putting us in a good position. Um-- KASS: Sure. I--yeah. FERNHEIMER: I ho-- KASS: I hope I hav e FERNHEIMER: And, uh, I think we' ; ll actually be able to get you in a good position for your next meeting as well, so-- KASS: But I hope I, uh, will be able to--to talk to her, so. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Thank you so much. KASS: Well, so, I mean, do you want to, um--let me know what you want to do in terms of--of speaking to people. Uh, like I said, I' ; ve spoken to--to Tom, uh, and, you know, Max knows. FERNHEIMER: We would--any kind of-- WALDMAN: ------Any entrée you' ; re--you' ; re willing and able to provide would be fabulous. Yeah. KASS: Well, yeah. I mean, I' ; m happy to--you know, and, you know, this is the type of thing that people would be happy, I' ; m sure, to talk to you about. Uh, you know, again, to our earlier point, there' ; s--there' ; s a lot of pride in this. So--um, so yeah, um, Tom, I can--I' ; ve already told him that I' ; ve--you know, I' ; ve spoken to you about him. And I think I can probably just--I' ; ll just email him, copy you on it, and say-- FERNHEIMER: --okay, great, that' ; d be wonderful-- KASS: --I' ; ll just introduce you to him, and email, and you can go ahead and get in contact with him. Because he--he would be really, a--a--a good person to--to talk to. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And I imagine Anne or Kate or Max would be a little bit harder to nail down with their schedules? I' ; m-- KASS: Uh, well, they will be. Um, uh, Anne will be easier than the other two, um, but, um, she' ; s still remarkably busy. FERNHEIMER: So how--how do we get a hold of Anne? I imagine she' ; s not necessarily available. KASS: I would say the way to do it would be through Harry' ; s widow, through Judy. FERNHEIMER: Okay. KASS: Yeah. So, um, that would be the best way to do that. So, um-- WALDMAN: We want to talk to Judy anyway, so--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: Y--yeah. KASS: Yeah, yeah. Judy would be a good person to talk to as well. Um, uh, so yeah, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Maybe after we close this, then we can talk contact information so it' ; s not--(laughs) KASS: Yeah. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh432_jk008_kass_ohm.xml 2015oh432_jk008_kass_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Title
A name given to the resource
Larry Kass, October 1, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Larry Kass talks about his childhood in Connecticut. He describes his career as an advertising and marketing executive in New York before moving to Kentucky to work for Heaven Hill Distillery in 1998. He also discusses his family history, including his maternal grandfather fleeing the Russian Red Army in 1917, walking from Ukraine to Amsterdam, stowing away on a boat to Montreal, Canada, and eventually migrating to America. Kass describes his family’s relationship to Judaism as well as his own personal Jewish identity. His parents ensured that he was raised with a strong Jewish identity and he has done the same for his children. Since moving to Louisville, Kass has been an active member in the Louisville Jewish community, including a seven year stint as a member of the Jewish Family and Career Services and as an active member of his Temple.
Kass describes the founding of Heaven Hill Distillery in the years following Prohibition and outlines the changes in the bourbon distilling and wholesale distribution industry from being several family-owned, primarily Jewish, operations to fewer consolidated companies. He describes the history of the distilled spirits industry in the United States from the early 1900s, and shares some of his favorite bourbon lingo and phrases. Kass goes into detail about the Jewish families who were involved in bourbon production before and after Prohibition and their influences on the industry, as well as women's role in the industry. Kass reflects on the future of bourbon, and describes the Whiskey Jewbilee, a Jewish whiskey sampling event.
Identifier
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2015oh432_jk008
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jews--Identity.
Women in the whiskey industry
Bourbon whiskey.
Entrepreneurship
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
Alcohol industry.
Distilleries--Kentucky
Family-owned business enterprises.
Whiskey industry--Kentucky
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
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https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/b943fc6476d702d12179bcf9d533daa4.jpeg
7809299c36ec66790776a5e7e5e5457a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jack Miller
Interview Keyword
Holidays.
Fasts and feasts--Judaism.
Military service, Voluntary--United States.
Family histories.
Civil rights demonstrations
College students--Religious life
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh343_jk007 Interview with Jack Miller, August 31, 2015 2015oh343_jk007 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Childhood Jewish children Jewish families. Religion Jews--Identity. United States--Race relations. African Americans--Relations with Jews. Worship (Judaism) Greek letter societies. University of Kentucky Holidays. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Military service, Voluntary--United States. Family histories. Civil rights demonstrations College students--Religious life Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jack Miller Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|29(3)|51(4)|75(8)|94(11)|121(10)|151(9)|163(8)|198(3)|237(10)|250(4)|262(13)|306(1)|340(5)|348(4)|372(7)|387(1)|399(2)|418(9)|433(13)|460(8)|486(6)|521(10)|537(13)|547(14)|562(6)|587(8)|603(15)|619(10)|642(12)|661(3)|677(11)|701(8)|729(2)|747(1)|766(4)|800(16)|820(1)|859(3)|895(9)|943(3)|972(4)|993(1)|1027(7)|1047(8)|1085(9)|1105(5)|1131(12)|1171(9)|1213(4)|1238(11)|1274(4)|1297(1)|1317(13)|1333(10)|1353(3)|1361(7)|1367(17)|1381(11)|1393(4)|1412(3)|1434(3)|1450(8)|1458(1)|1472(13)|1489(10)|1506(3)|1522(7)|1536(12)|1553(8)|1565(5)|1573(13)|1583(7)|1591(14)|1615(6)|1630(4)|1641(9)|1659(9)|1672(6)|1698(3)|1731(3)|1757(1)|1766(7)|1790(5)|1807(5)|1832(10)|1852(8)|1873(10)|1886(3)|1904(6)|1925(4)|1935(12)|1945(12)|1953(12)|1966(5)|1982(9)|2016(2)|2024(5)|2032(7)|2042(7)|2054(9)|2061(11)|2075(7)|2088(10)|2101(12)|2121(11)|2140(6)|2162(1)|2170(10)|2181(12)|2188(15)|2207(4)|2220(3)|2234(6)|2248(2)|2259(6)|2275(8)|2297(6)|2319(10)|2339(3)|2365(11)|2381(8) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253337238" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family background For official purposes, today is August 31st, 2015. Jack Miller was born in Lexington, Kentucky on November 29th, 1935. Jack's family originated from Germany. There were also three generations of Millers that had been living in Cincinnati. His family origins in Cincinnati can be traced back to the late 1800s. Ancestry ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Germany Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. 51.165691, 10.451526 17 Germany http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityofcincinnati/ A link offering the history of the city of Cincinnati 169 Establishment of a law firm and Miller Brothers General Store And were they all lawyers? Miller's family opened a general store on the corner of Main street and Broadway. Starbucks is located there today. The store was a general store opened sometime in the 1870s. Jack also operated a law firm after he graduated in 1962. Benjamin Miller Entrepreneurship ; General stores ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.048659,-84.499160 17 Location of where Starbucks is today. Former location of Miller Bros. 449 Siblings / childhood Do you have siblings? Miller had two brothers. However, one of his brothers passed away before he was born. His other brother Robert also passed, and he was about 2.5 years younger than Jack. Jack attended primary school at the Taylor Education building. He was an active member of the school's basketball team. Jack discusses all of the sports and silly games he used to play as a kid. Basketball ; Brothers ; Death Childhood ; Education--Kentucky ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 38.040625,-84.507259 17 Location of Taylor Education Building. http://ukcc.uky.edu/cgi-bin/dynamo?maps.391+campus+0001 History of Taylor Education Building 756 Religious observation Uh--(laughs)--well can you tell me a little about your parents' relationship to Judaism when you were growing up? Miller discusses how and why his family put up a Christmas tree even though they were heavily involved in Temple life. He also mentions the divide between the Temple and the Synagogue. He was also a part of the first B'nai Mitzvah group, however, this didn't occur until later in life. B'nai Mitzvah ; Christmas ; Hanukah ; National Federation of Temple Youth Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 37.998629, -84.471813 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue http://www.ozs.org Synagogue's website 1290 Societal trends at Temple Can you describe, aside from the Christmas tree, uh, what Judaism was like in your family? Miller discusses Jewish life around the High Holidays, and how he had only been involved in one issue of someone saying something nasty about Jews. He also discusses how his father, along with other men in the congregation, would smoke cigarettes outside of the Temple on the holidays. Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Cigarettes ; Discrimination. ; Perspectives ; Religious Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1728 Relationship to Rabbi Grafman Tell me about your connection with Rabbi Grafman. Rabbi Grafman was one of the seven clergy men to sign the " ; Letter to Birmingham Jail," ; which was written on April 16, 1963. Miller also discusses more about his relationship with Rabbi Grafman, as well as how he felt about race relations. He discusses Jewish holiday observance in the community as well. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Letter to Birmingham Jail ; Race ; South African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Racism ; United States--Race relations. ; Worship (Judaism) 33.496346, -86.823036 17 Birmingham City Jail http://police.birminghamal.gov/bureaus/support-operations/jail/ Birmingham City Jail 2067 College and active military experience And so after you graduated from high school and you went on to study at UK. Miller discusses how he attended the University of Kentucky undergraduate and post-graduate programs. He graduated in 1962. Miller served in Fort Knox and then Fort Jackson, South Carolina. He took a year off from school because he was required to serve at least six months of active duty. He was a part of the Medical Corp. Law school ; University of Kentucky. College of Law College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; Military service, Voluntary--United States. 42.644692, -83.145301 17 University of Kentucky http://jackson.armylive.dodlive.mil Fort Jackson Training Base Website 2560 Jewish life on the University of Kentucky campus Um, when I was a senior, I was president of the fraternity. Miller talks about being president of his fraternity, as well as its location and what social life was like. He also talks about being involved in Hillel. Fraternities ; Fraternity president ; Hillel College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. 38.030516, -84.511271 17 123 State Street, Lexington, Kentucky. Location of the fraternity house. 3287 Involvement in Jewish communal life How would you say your time in--at UK and also in ZBT, uh, impacted the way you thought about your Jewishness? Miller thinks back to how he was only really involved with Jewish events on campus. He also discusses how he was president of the congregation as well as an advisor to the youth group while he was a student. Discrimination ; Judaism ; Prayer Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. 17 http://www.zbt.org Zeta Beta Tau Website 4194 Impact of race relations So, you talked a lot about these experiences as, as leading the youth and this kind of impactful experience of watching D.C. burn. Miller talks about how their maid Emma was Black, but they never called her maid. She was treated very respectfully and most of the time they would talk about different issues. He also goes into detail about how growing up Jewish has made him look at the larger picture in life. Civil rights ; Jewish ; Maids African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; United States--Race relations. 38.907192, -77.036871 17 Washington, D.C. 4706 Advice to Jewish students at UK today Do you have any advice you'd give to Jewish students at UK today? Miller's advice to current Jewish students consists of bringing back the fraternity, as well as keeping any Jewish organizations on campus alive. Fraternity ; Greek life ; Hillel College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; University of Kentucky 38.039712, -84.495076 17 Current location of the Hillel House http://kyhillel.org UK's Hillel website Oral History Jack Miller was born in Lexington, Kentucky. His family originated from Germany. Miller's family opened a general store on the corner of Main street and Broadway. Starbucks is located there today. The store was a general store opened sometime in the 1870s. Jack also operated a law firm after he graduated in 1962. Miller discusses how and why his family put up a Christmas tree even though they were heavily involved in Temple life. He also mentions the divide between the Temple and the Synagogue. He was also a part of the first B'nai Mitzvah group, however, this didn't occur until later in life. Miller also discusses his relationship with Rabbi Grafman, one of the seven clergy men to sign the " ; Letter to Birmingham Jail," ; to Martin Luther King, which was written on April 16, 1963. Miller discusses how he attended the University of Kentucky undergraduate and post-graduate programs. Miller talks about being president of his fraternity, as well as its location and what social life was like. He also talks about being involved in Hillel. He graduated in 1962. Miller served in Fort Knox and then Fort Jackson, South Carolina. He took a year off from school because he was required to serve at least six months of active duty. He was a part of the Medical Corp. FERNHEIMER: For official purposes, uh, today is August 31st, 2015. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I am associate professor of writing, rhetoric, digital studies and director of Jewish studies. And it' ; s my great honor and pleasure to be here today with Jack Miller. Um, and from this point forward, I will ask you some questions, which I know we' ; ve already talked about, either on the car ride or on other occasions. But-- MILLER: --yeah, and-- FERNHEIMER: --please forgive me for asking them again. MILLER: No problem. FERNHEIMER: What was your name at birth? MILLER: Jack--uh, you want middle name? FERNHEIMER: Sure. MILLER: Jack Lee Miller. FERNHEIMER: And when and where were you born? MILLER: I was born here in Lexington, uh, November 29, 1935. FERNHEIMER: And what were your parents' ; names and occupations? MILLER: Uh, my mother was Beatrice [Fromberg?] Miller. And, uh, she just was a housewife. And--uh, not just, but she was a housewife. (laughs) And, uh, my father is, uh--his--he went by the name I period J period Miller. But it was actually [Isadore?] Jacob, Junior. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And he was? MILLER: He was a lawyer, sorry. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. And did your parents or grandparents' ; names change when they came to the U.S.? MILLER: Well, I know my grandfather' ; s--uh, my--well, my mother' ; s family did not change their name. FERNHEIMER: The Frombergs? MILLER: The Fromberg--yeah, it' ; s, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And do you know where they came from and when? MILLER: Uh, my grandfather--my--well, on my mother' ; s side, uh, my grandfather' ; s great grandfather, uh, was--uh, came from Germany. Uh, but his name' ; s--was Fromberg at the time. And, to be honest with you, I don' ; t know when, uh, my father' ; s family came to this country. FERNHEIMER: And they were Millers? MILLER: They were Millers, I' ; m sure. But they go back at least three generations I know of. Miller didn' ; t, uh--in Cincinnati. FERNHEIMER: Do you--so, three generations of Millers in Cincinnati? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And so that was your--your father, I.J., his father-- MILLER: Father was, uh, the same thing. Isadore Jacob Miller. FERNHEIMER: And one before that, as well? MILLER: I think his name was, uh, Isaac, I think, the one beforehand was, uh--and I' ; m--I--not really exactly positive. FERNHEIMER: And were they all lawyers? MILLER: No, none of ' ; em were lawyers except ------(??) my father. Uh, my grandfather--uh, my father' ; s father came to Lexington, uh, from Cincinnati right after the Civil War, uh, in the late 1870s, I guess it was. And, uh, had a store, uh, which was then--it was called Miller Brothers, and it was on the corner of Main Street and Broadway, here. Here in Lexington. FERNHEIMER: Right where the Starbucks is now? MILLER: Right where Starbucks is today, yes. FERNHEIMER: And what kind of goods did they sell? MILLER: It was sort of a general kind of store, I think. FERNHEIMER: And they established--so, that was since the 1870s? He started it right away when he moved here? MILLER: Yeah, uh, I think he--he--he--I think he came here to work for somebody--uh, I cannot tell you who he worked for. But, uh, pretty much after they first came here is just when he and--and--and he brought his brother down here. His brother--name was Benjamin. And, uh, uh, he passed away, apparently quite young, uh, and never was married. Um, I' ; m told. (laughs) And I' ; ve never seen any proof of it, but I' ; m told that after he passed away, uh, some other relatives, uh, donated money to, uh, the St. Joseph Hospital in his--for a room in his name. FERNHEIMER: Huh. MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: St. Joseph' ; s here in Lexington? MILLER: Here in Lexington, yeah. It was then probably on Second Street. FERNHEIMER: But you haven' ; t found the room. MILLER: No, it--uh, I--I threaten periodically to--to go by the hospital and see if--you know, whatever happened to it or--if--if anything. I--you know, I don' ; t know. I' ; ve never--I never have. I' ; ve--I' ; ve heard that for--you know, for a long time. But, uh, uh, I' ; ve never really done anything personally to-- FERNHEIMER: To follow up? MILLER: To follow up on it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: And I don' ; t know if any of my relatives have done that either, to be truthful. FERNHEIMER: So, would have been in Benjamin Miller' ; s name? MILLER: Uh, yes. FERNHEIMER: If it existed? And do you--you--do you know why he died or how he died? MILLER: No, I don' ; t. FERNHEIMER: Oh. MILLER: No, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you know when? MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And the store was started roughly in 1870. How long did it last? MILLER: You know, there--I' ; m not--I' ; m--you know, I' ; m--I' ; m terrible--I' ; m really not--not sure. But it was for--apparently, like, good length of time. Uh, you know, I hadn' ; t mentioned to you, but the--and you had talked--someplace in there, you were--mentioned the--talking about maybe discrimination. Uh, there' ; s a story, uh, in the Lexington newspaper at the time-- FERNHEIMER: The Herald Leader? MILLER: Yeah. Well, what--or whatever it was called at the time, I can' ; t remember. Um, where--(laughs)--uh, at Christmas--but that year, it happened to fall on a Sunday. And, uh, the people in the store went out and--to the needy children and gave them all numbers, or had them pick numbers. And, uh, so--for presents on Christmas day. And, uh, apparently, uh, the--number of drunks, uh, picketed and--the store and caused all kinds of--of, uh, uh, noise about them being open on Sunday, even though the--the purpose of it was to give away, uh, gifts to the underprivileged children for Christmas. FERNHEIMER: Huh. MILLER: Uh, and the--the article, what--in the paper was sort of a tongue-in-cheek type of--of an article. It' ; s a--I guess we would say it today, it was sort of sarcastic. (laughs) You know? And--in relation to, uh--I mean, it was--it was supportive. But, you know, it came across--you know, it started out somewhere--of the--you know, how they were--you know, the evil Jews were, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Were open on Sunday? MILLER: Open on Sundays. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Huh. Well, do you have any idea what year that was? MILLER: No, just--I-- FERNHEIMER: Do you have the article? MILLER: Yeah, I' ; ve got it someplace at home. FERNHEIMER: Wonderful. We might follow up with you if that' ; s possible, to-- MILLER: Yeah, oh, sure, no problem. FERNHEIMER: Or, if we can' ; t find it through the search engine-- MILLER: Oh, I' ; m sure I can find it someplace. FERNHEIMER: Do you have siblings? MILLER: I had a--one brother. Well, actually, I had two brothers. One died before I was born. Uh, and, uh, then I had a--a younger brother, uh, Bob. Robert. And he passed away, also. FERNHEIMER: How old was--was--how much younger than you was he? MILLER: He was two and a half years younger than I am. FERNHEIMER: And when did he pass? I' ; m sorry. MILLER: Seventy-seven, something like that, I think. FERNHEIMER: Oh. MILLER: He had cancer. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And-- MILLER: No, it wasn' ; t ' ; 77. Maybe ' ; 97. FERNHEIMER: Okay. I was going to say, you were pretty young then. MILLER: Yeah, no, it was-- FERNHEIMER: He would' ; ve been really young. MILLER: No, no, but-- FERNHEIMER: --um-- MILLER: --but I' ; m not--I' ; m not--I' ; m terrible about remembering years. I' ; m just-- FERNHEIMER: Oh, that' ; s okay. Um, so, you grew up here, in town, hmm? MILLER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood and what it was like to grow up in Lexington? MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And where' ; d you go to school? MILLER: Well, I went to, uh, what then was University School, which was part of the university. It' ; s where the Taylor Education Building is. FERNHEIMER: Oh, yeah. MILLER: Uh, I went to kindergarten there. Uh, was an all-day kindergarten. We took a nap, and they had a--a, uh--like, a courtyard, and it had a log cabin in it. So, it was--it was a--and I--and we took a nap. They had cots for us to take naps on. And then, uh, for elementary school, which is--in those days, first through sixth grade, uh, I went to, uh, [Kendrick?] School, which is--which became [Julia Ewing?], who had been the principal when--when, uh, I was there, and probably had been the only principal from the time that the school started until--' ; til then. I don' ; t know, but--uh, you know, but she' ; d been there for many years. And then, after I got out of that, I went to, uh, back to U. High, University High School, from seventh grade, and graduated from there. FERNHEIMER: And what--what was your experiences in elementary and high school like? MILLER: Just, you know, I think--yeah, like any other normal person. Um, we, uh--one of my friends' ; father, uh, started a basketball team for us at--at [Kenwick?], uh, when we were in the sixth grade. And, uh, uh, so, that--you know, we--we had a group of us that played basketball, and probably--ten or twelve of us. I don' ; t know how many people were on it, but, uh, it was fun. And, uh, then, when I went to U. High, it was, you know, everybody was just--it was a small school. We had thirty-six people in our graduating class. FERNHEIMER: Wow. MILLER: Uh, and I think, for the most part, probably all of us went to school straight through ------(??) came to town and--and started there if somebody dropped out, because they--they had to limit the number of people that they would take in, so--and in those days, it was the only, uh, school that had student teachers. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. MILLER: Uh, they didn' ; t have it in the--in the public school system. FERNHEIMER: And where--where was U.--was U. High right on-- MILLER: It was--it-- FERNHEIMER: --campus? MILLER: Yes. Well, it was in the Taylor Education Building. FERNHEIMER: Also in the Taylor-- MILLER: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --Education Building. MILLER: Um, the--the one side was for the elementary school, and the--as you' ; re facing the building, the left side was for junior--junior high and high school. FERNHEIMER: And did you live in the Kendrick neighborhood when you were growing up? Um-- MILLER: Kendrick neighborhood, yes. Lived on Holiday Road. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Which backs up to what is now the Idle Hour--in those days, it was the Ashland Country Club. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. MILLER: And, uh, [Curley R. Bradley?] owned it. He was a horse--horse man. And, uh, everybody could belong, you know? It didn' ; t--there was no discrimination about membership. FERNHEIMER: When it was Ashland. MILLER: When it was Ashland. Then Curley Bradley died, uh, they sold it to the people who started the--who made it the Idle Hour Country Club, which is what it still is now. But, uh, in--in those days, uh, it was, uh, there--no Jews were allowed. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: To Idle Hour, or-- MILLER: To Idle Hour, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was your--were your family members when it was still Ashland? MILLER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, our house backed up to the country club. I mean, we used to say that my dog was the only Jewish person that ever went over there. (laughter) ' ; Cause--' ; cause she would go over and grab--the putting green was right behind our house, and she' ; d go over and grab a golf ball and come running home with it. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Uh--(laughs)--well, can you tell me a little bit about your parents' ; relationship to Judaism? MILLER: Well, they, uh-- FERNHEIMER: When you were growing up? MILLER: Were they what? FERNHEIMER: Your parents' ; relationship to Judaism while you were growing up? MILLER: Well, uh, my grandfather-- FERNHEIMER: Which one? MILLER: --was one of the founders of the--of the temple. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: And, uh, he never--he never was an officer, but he was one of the founders of it. Uh, my father, uh, became president of the temple at--you know, as time went on. And, uh, my mother was--(laughs)--she--she, uh, was a member of sisterhood. And, uh, she was in charge of selling the sisterhood calendars forever. I mean, she did it until she--' ; til she couldn' ; t do anything anymore. Uh, I mean, that' ; s what she did for--you know, that was her job. And, uh, we were--(laughs)--I don' ; t know how to phrase this, but we were not traditional in the standpoint of--of, uh, of, uh Jewish--Jewishness. Uh, we had a Christmas tree. Uh, and, uh--until--until my--my brother, who ultimately became president of the National Federation of Temple Youth--until he became--became active in that. Um, uh, we had a Christmas tree. And--and he insisted that they stop doing it, which they did. But, uh, growing up, we always had a Christmas tree, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And did you call it a Christmas tree or did you call it a Hanukah bush? MILLER: No, we called it a Christmas tree, uh, uh, and I--and I know that you' ; re aware of--of my relationship with Rabbi [Grafman?]. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Uh, but-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m going to ask you a few questions about that later. MILLER: Yeah, I know, and I just--uh, but I--it--this sort of falls into that, because he would not--he would not come to the house during that season. FERNHEIMER: Because of the tree? MILLER: Because of the Christmas tree. Uh, you know, they might talk on the telephone, but he would not come to the house, because he wouldn' ; t--didn' ; t want to--you know, didn' ; t want to be there with it. So, uh, you know, that was never talked about. But that was, uh, you know, that was a fact. FERNHEIMER: And did you--when you were a child, did you know that this was unusual? Or was this just normal? MILLER: I think it was more normal than it was unusual. Um, you know, in those days, uh, there were pretty strictly two congregations that were separate and apart, and the people who belonged, for the most part, were separate and apart. There were a number of people who--however, who belonged to both congregations. Uh, but for the most part, socially, interaction, there was none. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And this was between the temple and the synagogue? MILLER: Yeah, and, uh, you know, and, uh--which, you know, to look back on it, it was a shame. But that was--I mean, they--you know, there was--there was a--at--at one point in time, there was discussion about the--the, uh, consolidation of the two institutions. And, uh, I think probably the--the worship on--or the ways of worship on the High Holidays was probably one of the, uh, drawbacks for--uh, the inability to even, you know, logically or--or, you know, uh, realistically, uh, consider it. FERNHEIMER: Because they were so different? MILLER: Yeah, ' ; cause they were so different. Um, but, um, as far as my upbringing, uh, you know, most of my friends were--were members--their parents were members of the--the temple. Um, uh, I did not know very many, if any, of the kids of my age that were at the synagogue. I don' ; t--tell you the truth, I don' ; t even know how many there were-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --except those whose parents belonged to both institutions. Uh, I know that you' ; ve talked to at least one or maybe more of the people who were around at the time. But, uh, uh, they were--you know, most of those people, I think, just--uh, belonged to both congregations. Um, but times have changed. (laughs) And--and--and I think for the better. FERNHEIMER: In terms of those relationships? MILLER: In terms of--of--of interaction and--and, you know, congeniality, and--and doing things together. Uh, I think that' ; s amazing. I think it' ; s wonderful. FERNHEIMER: Why do you think there was such a divide then, while you were growing up? MILLER: I think that the--most--main part of it probably was that the temple was what is--is known as classical Reform. And, um, we had a choir, we had an organ. Um, you know, you--you interviewed Harriet, and--but she--she sang in the choir. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: And, uh, uh, very little Hebrew was read at the temple. Um, I' ; m sure there' ; s some--you know, I--you know, I can' ; t sit here and remember, but I think that--you know, some of the prayers were, of course, in Hebrew. But, uh, it was always followed by the English transliteration. Uh, uh, and--and we had--when I grew up, we had no bar or bat mitzvahs at the temple. Um-- FERNHEIMER: Were you confirmed? Did they do-- MILLER: I was--we were confirmed, uh, and in--in my later life, uh, after having gotten married, uh, uh, we--we--I was part of one of the first B' ; nai mitzvah groups-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --that had a bar mitzvah, uh, which I' ; m glad I did. Um-- FERNHEIMER: When did you do that? MILLER: Uh, I can' ; t remember. In--in--in, you know, in--in later life. (laughter) It was after I got married. So, you know, it was--it was probably--it was probably-- FERNHEIMER: In the ' ; 80s or something? MILLER: Yeah, something like--I was probably around--fifties, and--you know, uh, there were--think three of us in our--that group. Two women and me. Uh, and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And you did it at the temple? MILLER: Huh? FERNHEIMER: Did you do it at the temple, here? MILLER: At the temple, yeah. Uh, Joe Miller, uh, who is deceased, uh, [Sammy, is his?]--Sammy--you know, she was Miller, then she was--well, her--her, uh--[so, is?]--Joe was her brother. And [Frida?]--I mean, Sam--uh, Frida--uh, Fanny and--and Sherman were his parents and, uh, uh, they--he had the bar mitzvah, uh, and--and again, I--I don' ; t remember ------(??) but-- FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. Uh, so, growing up, confirmation was the big thing. MILLER: Confirmation was the big thing. And, uh, we did have post-confirmation, also. FERNHEIMER: How-- MILLER: And there were--there were three of us in my confirmation class. FERNHEIMER: You and who else? MILLER: [Leslie Abberson?], who lives in Louisville, and [Jonas Wheel?], and I--I don' ; t know where Jonas lives nowadays. FERNHEIMER: And they' ; re both men? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Leslie, I' ; m not always sure. MILLER: And then the class before me was two years before, uh, our confirmation class. And, if I' ; m not mistaken, they had three, also. It was Earl Levy, [Alan Bloomfield, and Myra?] Michaels. I think that' ; s all they had in that class. So, there weren' ; t that--I mean, you know, there was--there were years in between that, uh, there was no confirmation, because they just--they--the population was not such that, uh, uh, you know, they filled in every year. I mean, sometimes they did, but it' ; s unusual. FERNHEIMER: Pretty small class. MILLER: Yeah, small classes. FERNHEIMER: Can you describe-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --aside from the Christmas tree, uh--(laughter)--what Judaism was like in your family? What was the role of Jewish tradition in-- MILLER: Well-- FERNHEIMER: --in your childhood, or what-- MILLER: --so, we-- FERNHEIMER: --your parents taught you-- MILLER: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --little bit? MILLER: No, they didn' ; t talk much about it. Uh, we would go to--of course, went to high holiday services. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: My father was an usher, all the time, so he didn' ; t sit in for services very much, uh, except for--when--for, uh ------(??) he would come in for that. Uh, but for the most part, he was the usher, and they stayed outside, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was that by choice on his part? MILLER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh, they would sit out and they would sit around and--you know, the men, they' ; d sit around and they' ; d talk and they smoke and, you know. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Cigarettes or pipes? MILLER: Cigarettes. Cigarettes. (laughs) But, um, you know, and that' ; s--it--it--when I went to--and I went--you know, this is going back about--about--about--doing that services, um, uh, I would not--go for the high--during the day for the High Holidays. I would go to school, uh, and, uh, you know, I can' ; t say that most of the kids did, but I--' ; cause I don' ; t--I didn' ; t ask and I don' ; t know. But, uh, uh, my guess is they went to school, too. And we--(laughs)--uh, I was at U. High, and we would walk from--sometimes from--we' ; d walk downtown to catch the bus to go home. Uh, other times, the parents would pick us up at, uh--we' ; d walk downtown, and we would go down Limestone and, uh, we would pass, uh, Maxwell Street, which is where the synagogue was at the time. And, uh, we would always see the old gentlemen sitting at the counter in the, uh, drugstore, drinking coffee and Cokes during the holidays, too, so--(laughter)--you know, I--I--you know, [it, like?]--it was kind of tough for the--uh, these--I would think for the older gentlemen to sit during the whole services, and even--even for Yom Kippur, they would, uh, be over there sometime, too, so, uh--you know, and we would know who they were. I mean, you know, it' ; s--it' ; s not as if we didn' ; t know who they were, but, uh--uh, so, it was--it was--it was fun. I mean, you know, this--the only--I only had one--one instance where I would say that there was a showing of bias, and that is that, uh, one--one fellah who I always thought was a--you know, a friend. You know, friendly, anyway, called me a dirty Jew. FERNHEIMER: What was the context? MILLER: I don' ; t know, something over a softball game or something. And I got into a fight with him. And he never said it again. And, uh, you know--but that' ; s the only time that I--I remember anyone ever overtly saying anything about, you know, religion. I mean, they didn' ; t talk about their religion, uh, you know, at least in front of me, uh-- FERNHEIMER: How old were you at the time, when this happened? This was high school? College? MILLER: Yeah, it was in high school. FERNHEIMER: And-- MILLER: And he' ; s no longer living--(laughs)--the person that--he got killed boxing in the Army. FERNHEIMER: Oh! (laughter) That' ; s a difficult-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --way to go. MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, are there any other vivid memories from your childhood that you' ; d want to share, uh-- MILLER: Well, I--you know, I--I think one of the--and I--I' ; ve mentioned him again--before, but I--I think probably one of the, uh, emotional losses that I felt was when Rabbi Grafman left Lexington. And I--and, uh, granted, I was only in the first grade, uh, but he left--he left Lexington on Pearl Harbor Day. And, uh, uh, he would come back periodically, uh, just to, you know, visit. And he would always stay at our house when he came back. And he was, you know, just a--a pleasant, uh, person to be around. I mean, I--uh, at least my recollection--I don' ; t--you know, I--I didn' ; t have him as a rabbi, as such, but, uh, you know--uh, but his daughter and I were very good friends, and I have--got a picture of the two of us in the first grade, dressed in--I guess as Mexicans or some--exactly what we were. It was for--so, I was--I don' ; t remember what it was for, even. Probably Halloween or--yeah, I don' ; t know what it was for, but, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And how did you--did you come to be close with her through school or because-- MILLER: Yeah, we went to school-- FERNHEIMER: Were your parents close or-- MILLER: We--well, both, I think. But we were at Kendrick School together, uh, you know, and, of course, I knew her before, you know, hand, because we' ; d be at their house and they would be at ours and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, your parents had a kind of close relationship with the rabbi. MILLER: Yes, yeah. No, and of course, in those days, uh, as much as you can be close. And we didn' ; t have--you know, uh, we didn' ; t have, uh, rabbis very long. Uh, our--we would get-- FERNHEIMER: Why is that? MILLER: Well, we--' ; cause we would get them, usually, out of HUC [Hebrew Union College], and Cincinnati was the only school of HUC at the time. And, uh, they would be here for two, three years, and then they would get, you know, jobs either paying better or in high--bigger congregations, and--and they would move on. Uh, but one of--(laughs)--and this goes up to at least--up in time, but, uh, the--the Union had biennials every--uh, convention. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Regional or national conventions every two years. And we would always have our, uh, former rabbis to a cocktail party at the--at the biennials. So, they stayed in--you know, we stayed in good terms with almost all of them. Uh, but, uh, you know, that didn' ; t always ------(??) I mean, you know, there was--they weren' ; t here long enough to--to--for people to get upset with them too much. So, uh-- FERNHEIMER: But obviously, he was here long enough for you to feel a real loss when-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --he left. MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about your connection with Rabbi Grafman, uh-- MILLER: Well, I mean, I was--that was pretty much the connection, you know? It was--it was, you know, through the families. Uh, I--you know, I' ; d--and I know that you have seen the article, uh, or, oh, the--the letter from the Birmingham jail-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --uh, that he was--you know, he went to Birmingham when he left here, and stayed there until he died. Uh, but he was one of the seven clergy to sign that letter to, uh, Dr. King. And, uh, I always thought that was sort of cool, you know, that, uh, he was--he was ahead of his time in the reform movement, I think, uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: In terms of the way he identified with-- MILLER: Yeah, I--yeah, those--it--on a--on a, uh, cultural level, he was much more liberal than--than necessarily the movement was, [I guess?]. FERNHEIMER: Do you mean specifically vis-à-vis race relations, or in a different way? MILLER: In a--in--not relig--I mean, not religiously, but in--uh, you know, from the standpoint of--of cultural, uh, aspects of life. Uh, and probably was ahead of his time in the South, in particular. Uh, you know, because that' ; s--you know, the South is not much for, you know, the integration movement, so, uh--you know, I always thought very highly of him, uh, and-- FERNHEIMER: Do-- MILLER: --uh, like I say, I would see him two or three times after he left here. He--the--' ; cause he would--like, he would stay with us, so I would see him, and we would--we never talked about anything in particular. But, you know, it was just sort of fun to--to, uh, to do that. FERNHEIMER: Were you aware--at--at the time, when you were older and he came back to stay with you--of--of the letter he wrote and its significance? MILLER: No. I didn' ; t even know it until recent--in time--in, yeah, in recent times. FERNHEIMER: And did he talk about things related to race relations in the synagogue or the temple? MILLER: No. No, he just talked--just general talk, you know? He--I mean, he was just a--sort of a down-to-earth person when he wasn' ; t doing his rabbinical stuff, you know? (laughs) And I don' ; t know what he was like doing that, so I--you know, I' ; m--he may have been that way there, too, ' ; cause, you know, like I say, he was there forever, so, uh, couldn' ; t have been too bad. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And did he ever come--not during the holiday season, but did he come to your house for Shabbas, or did you have-- MILLER: No, no. FERNHEIMER: --Shabbat with him? MILLER: No, no. And we didn' ; t--we didn' ; t, uh, do anything special for Shabbat, uh, growing up in--in--you know, it just--you know, was just another day, another meal. FERNHEIMER: Were there family meals around holidays or-- MILLER: In those--in those days for--like, for--uh, uh, Seder, uh-- FERNHEIMER: For Passover? MILLER: For Passover, they, uh--the Seder was at the temple. And, I--you know, my best guess is that there weren' ; t that many that had, uh, you know, second day Seder in--uh, in people' ; s homes. I--you know, I--if they did, I didn' ; t know it. [But?]-- FERNHEIMER: When you went-- MILLER: But the--with the whole--you know, it was pretty much that--it was a congregational-- FERNHEIMER: Seder. MILLER: --thing, yeah. I mean, it--and that was--pretty much most of the people from the congregation were there. FERNHEIMER: How--how many people were in the congregation? Or how many would come for the--that congregational Seder? MILLER: A lot. A lot, you know? I never count--[you know, they?]-- FERNHEIMER: More than a hundred? MILLER: Oh, it wouldn' ; t surprise me. Uh, but then again, I don' ; t know ------(??) you know, how many people even belonged in those days. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: ------(??) belong today, either, but--(laughs)--but, uh, uh, it--you know, everybody knew each other, you know? And, uh, uh, you know, until IBM [International Business Machines Corporation] came to Lexington, uh, there weren' ; t many outsiders. I mean, I say outsiders. I mean, those people who were not either in business or in the professions or farming or whatever in Lexington. I mean, there was--lot of the same people. FERNHEIMER: Lot of locals? MILLER: Lot of locals. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And when did IBM come? MILLER: Fifties, I think. I can' ; t remember. And that was--you know, that was the beginning of industry moving to Lexington. And with that, a number of Jewish people would come--university growing, people would come to university. Uh, VA [Veterans Administration] Hospital brought in, uh, uh, the two top--I can remember--I don' ; t remember age-wise, but the two top people at the VA Hospital were both Jewish. Uh, both of them belonged to the temple, but, uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And so, after you graduated from high school and you went on to study at UK [University of Kentucky]. MILLER: Right. FERNHEIMER: Um-- MILLER: I went to law school at UK, graduated from law school. FERNHEIMER: When did you decide to be a student at UK--(laughter)--and can you tell me a little bit about your experiences? MILLER: There--there wasn' ; t a--there wasn' ; t a decision to be made. That' ; s where I was going to go. (laughter) If I was going anyplace, I was going to University of Kentucky. Um, and, uh, I lived at home. I didn' ; t live in the fraternity--uh, dorm. I didn' ; t--when I joined a fraternity, I didn' ; t live in the fraternity house. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: What did you study? MILLER: Where did I study? FERNHEIMER: What did you study? MILLER: Oh, I studied, uh-- FERNHEIMER: What was your major? MILLER: --well, I majored in political science. Uh, and I always tell people the reason I majored in that was because I had more hours in political science than anything else when I had to decide. (laughs) [So, was?]--um-- FERNHEIMER: It' ; s not that different today. (laughs) MILLER: No. Um, we did have a Jewish professor in political science. FERNHEIMER: Who was that? MILLER: Wish you hadn' ; t asked me that. FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come back to you. MILLER: Yeah, I-- FERNHEIMER: Pretend I didn' ; t. MILLER: But, uh--(laughs)--I--I can still--you know, just a--as an aside and just sort of as a--I mean, he told us one thing, at the end of our--I took economic geography from him, and he said that the--when we were there taking our final, he said, " ; I just want to tell you something before this exam starts." ; He said, " ; When you finish the exam, forget everything that I have taught you, because in two years, it' ; ll all change." ; [You know, and?], uh, I thought that was sort of nice to hear. (laughs) You know? But, uh, I don' ; t--you know, to--to my recollection, he' ; s--uh, he' ; s the only one that I knew that I can think of off the top of my head that was Jewish that was--taught--teaching at UK at the time. FERNHEIMER: And when were you a student? Just for the official record. MILLER: At University of Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: From when to when? From-- MILLER: Oh, I--I started UK in 1953 and graduated in ' ; 57. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: And then I started law school in ' ; 57, and I graduated in ' ; 62, I believe. And the reason, the--so much time is that I went--I' ; d take a year out to go to--I went in the Reserves to six--so, I had to serve six months on active duty, um-- FERNHEIMER: Where did you serve? MILLER: Where? Fort Knox, and then Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And I--and I served--at that time, I was in the Medical Service Corps. FERNHEIMER: What did you do? MILLER: Uh, I took care of the payroll. (laughter) Uh, and--though we had a number of Jewish people in our Reserve unit, uh, uh, Bill [Winniker?] was in it. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: He was also in the fraternity, right? MILLER: No, Bill wasn' ; t. He didn' ; t go to school here. He didn' ; t go to, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Wasn' ; t there a Winniker? Maybe it wasn' ; t the-- MILLER: Jimmy. FERNHEIMER: Jimmy Winniker. MILLER: Jim, yeah. FERNHEIMER: He played football. MILLER: No, he--don' ; t think he--no. FERNHEIMER: No? MILLER: I don' ; t think so. I don' ; t think so. He' ; s big enough to have played football, but I don' ; t think--I--you know, if he did--he was older than us, so-- FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Somebody mentioned Jimmy Winniker, and his parents owned a shoe store? MILLER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Downtown. MILLER: Downtown. And--and the--one--the person who I--was in confirmation class with, the--Les Aberson, uh, his father--his--it was--his mother was related to the Winnikers, and his father ran the men' ; s store, uh, while the--[Al Winniker?] and boys, I guess. And Jim, and--and their--and their mother, Mary, uh, ran the women' ; s store. FERNHEIMER: What were the stores called? Do you-- MILLER: It was called Winniker' ; s. FERNHEIMER: Winniker' ; s? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And so, they had more than one store? MILLER: Well, there was one store, but they were two-- FERNHEIMER: Two sides? MILLER: Two sides sort of thing, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Where was it located? MILLER: Down Main Street. FERNHEIMER: And, sorry, and so if--we kind of-- MILLER: I know, we jumped around. FERNHEIMER: I jumped around, that was my fault. Um, but you were telling me about your time in college, at UK. Can you tell me a little bit about the fraternity? MILLER: Yeah, I was--uh, I pledged the fraternity, and-- FERNHEIMER: Which one? MILLER: ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau], in--so, in ' ; 52. FERNHEIMER: Who else was in your pledge class? MILLER: Oh, God, wish you--I know Les Aberson was in there. Uh, Bill Golton. Uh, Billy Galton was from--was, uh--think he was from Winchester. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember what his family did-- MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: --in Winchester? MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Golton? G-O-L-- MILLER: G-O-L-T-O-N. FERNHEIMER: --T-O-N? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And Aberson? A-B-E? MILLER: A-B-E-R-S-O-N. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And Les was still here in Lexington? MILLER: No, Les is Louisville. FERNHEIMER: In Louisville. MILLER: Yeah. Uh, well, at least--I think he' ; s--I think he still lives there, but I don' ; t--I' ; m not sure. I haven' ; t seen him in--or talked to him in several years, but, uh--and then, Jerry Josselson. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? MILLER: J-O-S-S-E-L-S-O-N. He' ; s from--he was from Ashland, Kentucky. And I' ; m just trying to--I--I can' ; t--those are the ones that [sprang?]--you know, stick out in my mind. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you remember who your pledge master was? MILLER: (laughs) Was probably Marty. FERNHEIMER: Solomon? MILLER: Yeah, but I' ; m not going to swear to it. But I--probably. (laughter) And--and we did have--just to--just as--just as a side--from when--when--my freshman year, our pledge class kidnapped one of our active members. FERNHEIMER: Oh, really? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Which one? MILLER: George [Spector?], who was from Pittsburgh. FERNHEIMER: And what did you do with George Spector? MILLER: We drove to, uh, Oxford, Ohio, to the University of [Miami?], to the ZBT house there. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Okay. MILLER: And, uh, he got--uh, we took him on a Friday, and got up there Friday evening. And he was--to say he was livid may be an understatement, because George was a big basketball fan. And in those days, you didn' ; t televise basketball games. And he couldn' ; t get back to Lexington to see the basketball game. FERNHEIMER: Oh. MILLER: And he was so unhappy. (laughs) But we spent the weekend up there, [and it was?]--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: And how many--how big was the house in Miami at the time? MILLER: I don' ; t--you know, it--probably about like us. I mean, there weren' ; t that many. FERNHEIMER: How many guys would you say? MILLER: It' ; s hard for me to--I--I wouldn' ; t even guess. I--I can' ; t even tell you how many we had here. Uh, I got--you know, we had a house mother. Her name was Mrs. Miller. FERNHEIMER: Not related. MILLER: Not related. Uh, she was a real pleasure. FERNHEIMER: And how old was she, living in the house with these young-- MILLER: Uh, [maybe?]-- FERNHEIMER: Was she an older woman or a younger woman? MILLER: Eh, she wasn' ; t young, no. She was, you know, probably older. You know, middle-aged, above, but, uh, she would have dinner with us. And we' ; d only have dinner there. I guess--you know, I think they only had dinner. I can' ; t remember if they had breakfast or not, but probably not. FERNHEIMER: And would you eat there, even though you lived at home? MILLER: I would eat dinner there sometime. Um, when I was a senior, I was president of the fraternity. FERNHEIMER: So, that was in 1953? MILLER: Six--' ; 57. FERNHEIMER: So, six-- MILLER: Fifty-six, ' ; 57, ' ; cause I graduated in ' ; 57, so, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And what were part of your--so, did you live in the house then? Or no? MILLER: No, but we had a president' ; s room. FERNHEIMER: Uh, that' ; s why I was asking. MILLER: Uh, but--(laughs)--since I wasn' ; t going to live there, some--it got, uh, preempted by one of the other fellahs that--you know, probably Jerry, uh, Josselson probably took it over. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you remember how many brothers were there when you were president? MILLER: We had--there was one other fellah from Lexington that was there, was, uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Aside from Les? MILLER: Uh, yeah. Um--(laughs)--Sidney--not Sidney. Casey Newman. FERNHEIMER: Casey Newman. MILLER: He' ; s from here. He was from Lexington. Uh, you know, I can' ; t remember--he was--he' ; d--I can' ; t remember if he was one of the--if he was on--related to the Rosenbergs or--or not. I' ; m--I' ; m not con--I think so. I think--yeah, I think he may be a cousin of Joyce' ; s. Joyce [Michener?]. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Uh, I think. Um, but I' ; d say we probably had fifteen. FERNHEIMER: Fifteen brothers? MILLER: Probably, at least. FERNHEIMER: How many, roughly, lived in the house? MILLER: Well, we had three floors. Uh, lived at 123 State Street, the infamous State Street. (laughter) Uh, now it' ; s infamous with the basketball--burning of the cars and all that kind of stuff, but, uh, wasn' ; t in those days, was very-- FERNHEIMER: Couches. Couches, I think, right? MILLER: Huh? FERNHEIMER: That' ; s what they like to burn now. Couches? MILLER: Couches and cars and whatever, yeah. (laughs) Anything that they can get hold of [that lights?]. FERNHEIMER: No couches burning back then? MILLER: No, no couches burning back then, and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: What was your typical celebration, or how did--did you guys go to the games to watch? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And tell me-- MILLER: And football. FERNHEIMER: --about that. What was that like? MILLER: Oh, it was fun. We' ; d go together. And, uh, you know, football, we--we beat Tennessee one year, which is always the last game of the season. And, uh, we stormed--along with--lot of other people, stormed the field at--and tore down the goal post. And, uh, uh, one of the fraternity brothers, uh, uh ------(??) I can' ; t remember--[Pete?] is the younger one. Uh, but, uh, he dated a girl who was a ZTA [Zeta Tau Alpha]. And we tore the pole--the goal post down. And we took it and marched to the sorority house and gave it to them. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: We, as in ZBT? MILLER: Uh-huh. (laughter) Yeah. Four or five of us, maybe six of us, you know? FERNHEIMER: And you brought it to the ZTA house? MILLER: Uh-huh. (laughs) ------(??) FERNHEIMER: And--and how did they receive it? MILLER: Oh, they loved it, yeah. (laughs) You know. FERNHEIMER: And was ZTA mostly Jewish girls? MILLER: [No, um?], no, I don' ; t know if they had any. But, uh-- FERNHEIMER: But just because the one brother had a girlfriend there? MILLER: Yeah. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit more about, um, your social life as a student? Were there other organizations you were involved with, uh-- MILLER: Hillel. FERNHEIMER: Hillel. MILLER: Uh-huh. They would--you know, and--and in--in those days, we had a pretty good number of Jewish students, you know. Uh, lot more than they have now, apparently. Um-- FERNHEIMER: How many students--Jewish students would you say in Hillel? MILLER: Well, I would say we would have twenty or so, or more, to show up for Hillel. They would have, uh, dinner. I would say either once a week--either every Sunday or once a month, I can' ; t remember which one it was. But it was always a Sunday dinner. And everybody would go there for dinner, ' ; cause we didn' ; t have a dinner--Sunday dinner at the fraternity house. FERNHEIMER: Fraternity house? (laughter) MILLER: And we' ; d all go, you know, to--to, uh, Hillel. FERNHEIMER: And so, where did the Hillel dinners take place? MILLER: At temple. FERNHEIMER: At Temple Adath Israel? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And how would you get there? Would you walk or drive or-- MILLER: We' ; d drive. You know, I--I--the--I think almost all of us had cars. Uh, I got my first car when I was a freshman. FERNHEIMER: Yeah? MILLER: And my [eighth?]-- FERNHEIMER: What was it? MILLER: Well, it was a Nash Rambler convertible. FERNHEIMER: A what kind? MILLER: Nash Rambler. FERNHEIMER: What color? MILLER: Blue, I think, but I don' ; t--I don' ; t--that I can' ; t--that I don' ; t remember, but--(laughter)--probably--it was used. Uh, my aunt' ; s second husband had passed away and left me-- FERNHEIMER: The convertible? MILLER: No, left me--couple thousand dollars or something. And it was enough to buy the car. And, uh, so I--you know, I just--I loved it, you know? (laughter) And, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, would you use it to drive to Hillel for-- MILLER: Oh, yeah. FERNHEIMER: --dinners? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And did you bring others with you? MILLER: I' ; m sure I did, yeah. FERNHEIMER: What did--do you recall what they served for dinner? MILLER: I would just--cook meal, I mean, you know, women in the congregation would-- FERNHEIMER: Would make the meal? MILLER: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: So, uh-- MILLER: It--probably once a month, I guess, but I' ; m not going to-- FERNHEIMER: And were there young women who would come, as well? MILLER: Yeah, yeah. So, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was it mostly folks from UK? Or was it also folks from ------(??) MILLER: No, I don' ; t--you know, I don' ; t ever remember anybody from Transylvania. Uh, you know, and I don' ; t know if there was any--to be honest, I don' ; t know if there are even Jewish students at Transylvania at the time, uh-- FERNHEIMER: EKU [Eastern Kentucky University]? Anywhere else? MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay, uh-- MILLER: You know, I' ; m sure that there were, you know, uh, you know, one or two, maybe. But, uh, I don' ; t remember any specific people that were-- FERNHEIMER: Do you remember the names of anyone who used to come-- MILLER: No, [because I wouldn' ; t?] remember there being any, so I--you know, I-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah, or--or just the students who would go to--with you to Hillel? MILLER: Oh, you know, I--you know, the--the ones I' ; ve mentioned, you know? George Spector and Marty Solomon and Early Levy and, uh, I know that you also--done an interview with, uh, Irv [Holsteen?]. FERNHEIMER: Not yet. MILLER: [So, what--or?]--uh, or not ------(??) who was it? Somebody-- FERNHEIMER: [Gene Dubath?]? MILLER: Gene [Dubau?]. Gene Dubau, maybe. Yeah, he was, uh, I think he may have been in Earl' ; s class. I' ; m not even sure. Earl and Marty' ; s. But, uh, uh, they were still here at--you know, when I was a freshman, so, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you remember anything about a Hillel debating society? MILLER: Never heard of it. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Was there one? FERNHEIMER: The--apparently there was one. Harriet Rose mentioned it in her-- MILLER: Oh, must have been-- FERNHEIMER: --interview. MILLER: --back in--it must have been back in her day. FERNHEIMER: And--(laughter)--I' ; d never heard of such a thing, so I' ; m trying to find out more information about it. MILLER: Never heard of it. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Not here, not at Miami, not-- MILLER: Not anywhere. I mean, it' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, so when you were president, what were the kinds of things that you had to do? Were you involved with other sororities or fraternities on campus or-- MILLER: Oh, I--I' ; m sure that we probably belonged to the inter-fraternity council. So, we would have had some connection, if they had meetings. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Did you have to go? As the president? MILLER: I' ; m sure. I' ; m sure. But it' ; s not something that just strikes--you know, that stands out in my mind about it. It--but I' ; m--I' ; m--you know, I feel certain that we did, you know? I don' ; t--we would--you know, it--it' ; s a--as a--we did a lot of things that--you know, as--just as a group. I mean, we' ; d go out and have a drink here and there and, you know, and--and, uh, uh, we' ; d have parties at the fraternity house, often. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Like, once a week or-- MILLER: Eh, maybe once a week, maybe once every couple weeks. But we would have them fairly regularly. FERNHEIMER: Who did you all invite to the parties? MILLER: The girls. (laughter) You know? FERNHEIMER: What girls? From-- MILLER: [Well, Kitty?], you know. There was a Kitty somebody, but I can' ; t remember her name. I just remember Kitty, now. Uh, Janice-- FERNHEIMER: Doctorow? MILLER: --uh, Doctorow. Uh, um, probably, uh, I guess Kay Frankel, probably, was--[I don' ; t know?]--she' ; s not here any--in Lexington anymore. She lives up in Oxford, Ohio. She' ; s in a--or Miami, someplace up there. She' ; s in a--assisted living place up there. She got a son that lives up there. FERNHEIMER: Was it mostly girls from the Phi Sigma Sigma-- MILLER: Yeah, yeah. FERNHEIMER: --sorority? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Were there other girls? Non-Jewish girls? MILLER: No. Well, the--you know, there' ; s--occasion--I mean, like, [Shelley Janowicz?], that' ; s his name. I mean, he had the--one girlfriend. I think he' ; s not a--longer living. Pete, his younger brother, is. Every once in a while, I' ; ll see him on Facebook. (laughs) I don' ; t ever communicate with him, but he' ; s in--he' ; s in Florida. FERNHEIMER: He' ; s in Florida. MILLER: Uh, we were--you know, I was--I was friends with--and, you know, with at least one of the football players. Uh, not Jewish. Uh, we would-- FERNHEIMER: Who is that? MILLER: I can' ; t remember, but three--there were three of us that would take French together. FERNHEIMER: Fraternity brothers or football player-- MILLER: One football player and then another fraternity brother and myself. And we' ; d--we' ; d sit ------(??) we had Pierre [Ship?], we used to call him. He was the French teacher. We always took him. He was strange, uh--(laughs)--and we would sit in the back of the classroom and make fun of him and--(laughs)--you know? But, uh--and then, uh, another one ------(??) [with the?]--Lou Michaels was--football player. And there was another Jewish fellah, and I can' ; t remember who it was. And I--the three of us, Lou and--and the two of us took the economic geography course together. And the final exam, uh, two of us sat here and then Lou Michaels would sit in between us. (laughs) And he would sit there and look one side and look at the other. And the professor came back saying, " ; Now, look, fellahs, you can' ; t cheat." ; Say, " ; We' ; re not doing anything!" ; He said, " ; Well, just don' ; t do it." ; (laughs) You know? The--Lou looked at us, he said, " ; He caught you cheating, did he?" ; (laughter) Nothing about him, but, you know, us, he--you know, we were cheating off of him! (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Were there consequences? MILLER: No. He--I don' ; t think he got any notes. I don' ; t think he read it--could read anything, but he kept looking. FERNHEIMER: He was trying. MILLER: He was trying. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How would you say your time in--at UK and also in ZBT, uh, impacted the way you thought about your Jewishness? MILLER: Well, I don' ; t really think it had much of an impact, as such. Uh, you know, it was--you know, from a--a social standpoint, uh, we didn' ; t, for the most part, socialize with the non-Jewish people on campus. So, I guess to some degree that--I mean, I--I don' ; t want to say that was discrimination, ' ; cause that may have been just us--maybe not feeling that we wanted to. I mean, I don' ; t--I don' ; t think that there was anything that stopped us from doing it. But I don' ; t--you know, I didn' ; t ever go to any other fraternity function for any other fraternity or--or sorority. Um, I don' ; t remember anybody particularly talking about socializing with anybody outside of the fraternity. Um, but that' ; s pretty much what we did. I mean, we--you know, and we would say a prayer, you know, before meals, you know? Uh, I don' ; t know if we did the, uh, uh, prayer after the service--after meals or not. I' ; d--my guess is probably not. But, uh, uh--you know, and I don' ; t know what--to be honest, uh--most of--many of the people--I have no idea, uh, what branch of--of, uh, of Judaism anybody, uh, practiced. Uh, you know, and I don' ; t know if any of the meals were served, uh, would pass muster for kashrut. Uh, I would doubt that there was pork served. But then, I' ; m not going to swear to that, either. But, uh, it' ; s--that' ; s--it' ; s not--that was nothing that I ever--was ever concerned about, uh-- FERNHEIMER: That would--that wasn' ; t part of your realm as president? MILLER: Or--or--or in life in general, you know? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: And, you know, again, until--getting married, you know, that--got to see a different perspective, which is not bad, is good. And, you know, we don' ; t serve anything that' ; s, you know, ham or pork or any of that kind of stuff at our house. And, you know, uh, (laughs) I had a fellah that practiced law in the same office where I was originally. Used to always have a Christmas party. And, uh, he would always have country ham. And, uh, I would eat it. And somebody came up to me and said, " ; Jack," ; he said, " ; I thought you were Jewish and you weren' ; t supposed to eat ham." ; I said, " ; It' ; s not. I blessed it and made it corned beef." ; (laughter) So, you know, it--but, uh, as far as, you know, college time was concerned, I--you know, I--I feel certain that there were, uh, at least Conservative branched individuals whose family belonged to that--or, you know, uh, so--I mean, I know Earl' ; s parents belonged to both congregations. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Um, Earl' ; s--Earl had a sister--or has a sister, Bobbi, who was younger. Younger than me. And, uh, uh, you know, I--my recollection is that she was very much--you know, just temple-wise, you know, uh, Earl is--he' ; s--now more--is mostly synagogue, but I--but, you know, growing up, he belonged to-- FERNHEIMER: [To both?]? MILLER: --both, yeah. Um, and, uh, at one point in time, um--I hate to talk--keep talking about myself, but, uh, one of the ------(??) FERNHEIMER: Well, that' ; s why I have you here. (laughs) MILLER: Well, one of--one of the things that I did for many years, uh, was--I was advisor of the temple youth group. FERNHEIMER: From when to when? MILLER: God, I can' ; t remember when I started and when I ended. But Bill [Leffler?] was president--was rabbi when I ended it, because--(laughs)--I was president of the congregation at the time, and--and, uh, he wasn' ; t on our [add?] list at the time. And, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, you were president of the congregation and the advisor to the youth group-- MILLER: Oh, yeah. FERNHEIMER: --at the same time? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Wow. MILLER: And I was also adviser for the whole region of--of the Ohio Valley Federation of Temple Youth. I was advisor for the whole region, as well, uh, as well as local. But I did the whole region, too. And, um, um, forgot why--where I was going with this, but, um, Earl--uh, Earl belonged--uh, belonged to [the--I think Bobbi?] belonged to the youth group. We also--at that time, the synagogue did not have a youth group. Uh, there--there was, at one point in time, a--uh, what is the-- FERNHEIMER: USY [United Synagogue Youth]? MILLER: USY--well, no, it wasn' ; t USY. It was the, uh, AZA [Aleph Zadik Aleph], or BBYO [B' ; nai B' ; rith Youth Organization], actually. They had a BBYO, uh, at one point in time. But it went by the way of all things. Uh, but, uh, we had members, uh, whose parents only belonged to the synagogue, who we allowed to join the temple youth group. Uh, and as a matter of fact, I, uh, was instrumental at one point in time in getting, uh, permission from the board to allow, uh, non-temple members to be officers in the youth group. FERNHEIMER: Mm. MILLER: Um, and, uh, you know, and people you might know. [Alan Stine?]-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --and Terri and Ricki, all three belonged to the, uh, youth group. Joyce Michener belonged. Um, I' ; m--and that--those stick out in my mind as--as, uh--and I' ; m sure there were others, too. But, uh--and there were two--there were two programs that stay out in my mind that I think--and I' ; ve tried to get them to institute it again sometime. Uh, and that one just made me remember it. Uh, I was in the county attorney' ; s office at the time, also, and, uh, I arranged, uh, with, uh, some police officers--or a police officer, anyway, uh, with the knowledge of parents, but not of individuals--well, yeah, some individuals, that they came to a youth group meeting and arrested Alan-- FERNHEIMER: Oh! MILLER: --at the youth group meeting. FERNHEIMER: For? MILLER: Possession of marijuana. And they took him out and drove off. And I said, " ; [Whoops?], folks, we' ; d better have a meeting of the--you know, we' ; d better have a discussion here." ; This is from the--you know, of the other people who were at the youth group meeting. " ; And what are we going to do when Alan comes back? How are we going to treat him?" ; Well, the girls did not--Terri and Ricki did not know about it. And they were hysterical. They tried to call their parents, couldn' ; t get them. And we sat there, and we had a discussion about what we were going to do, how we were going to treat him when he came back. Of course, then the police brought him back in and I told him what--told everybody this is what happened. But, um, it was--it was probably the best program I ever participated in. It really--I mean, it was just phenomenal, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And what did they decide in that meeting, how they were going to-- MILLER: Well-- FERNHEIMER: --treat him? MILLER: --uh, it was--I mean, I don' ; t think we ever came--with any final--you know, we [got?]--either got from the standpoint of we' ; re just not going to let him come back to the standpoint we' ; re going to have to treat him like we did--you know, have to understand, you know? Uh, you know, I--[think?] to say, I don' ; t know who if anybody here uses marijuana. And I don' ; t know if they did or not, to this day. But, uh, so, you know, it was--it was really a very good program. I mean, [it was--it?]--to me, you know, I--it' ; s--it' ; s the program that I remember, of all the programs we had. And we would have youth group meetings, temple youth group meetings, we' ; d have it twice a month. Once in the afternoon, where we would have a meeting, and, you know, just a--and we' ; d get together and just have a meeting about different things. And then we would have--the other time, we' ; d have a dinner meeting on the other Sunday, uh, where the-- FERNHEIMER: Always on Sundays? MILLER: Always Sundays, afternoon. And we would have dinner. And, uh, the parents would all get together and--and, you know, alternate for fixing the--for fixing the meal. And then, the other program, which was, uh, I mentioned to you on the elevator, I think, coming up here, but--um, I took the region--or, you know, representatives from different--all the congregations in--within the region, uh, we took a--a trip. We were going to Washington, D.C. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. MILLER: Uh, we took a bus trip. Uh, we--everybody went to Cincinnati and caught the bus in Cincinnati, if I' ; m--remember right. But we may have started here and just gone to Cincinnati. (laughs) Um, and we arrived at--we were staying at the--I can' ; t think of the name of the hotel, but it' ; s right across the street from where the UAHC [Union of American Hebrew Congregations], uh, social action center either is or was, at least in those days. FERNHEIMER: In D.C. or in Cincinnati? MILLER: In D.C. In D.C. And we got to the hotel and found out that they were burning Washington. You know, Washington, the--the--I guess I--probably was--I guess when King was killed, I' ; m not sure. I can' ; t remember what the-- FERNHEIMER: The context? MILLER: Context, you know, context of it was. But, um, so, we didn' ; t get to tour--(laughs)--much of Washington. But fortunately, we were able to do, programmatically, things, because all we had to do was walk across the street. Uh, but it was, uh, a--that was--I mean, we' ; d go to the top of the hotel and look out over Washington, and you could see Washington burning. I mean, it was just a--unbelievable sight, you know? You can see pictures of it all you want. Uh, but it was just unbelievable. And--and, uh, I think probably those people who were there probably will never--have forgotten it either. Uh, but, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And did you shift the conversation? Or, I guess, how did that shift the conversation? MILLER: Well, I mean, yeah, we ended up--I mean, of course, we were going to be talking about social action anyway. Uh, but, uh, Dave [Sapperstein?] was, uh, head of the religious action center, and I think--as a matter of fact, I think he just retired. Uh, Rabbi--and--and, uh, I also, you know, I' ; d like to pat myself on the back, I guess, but, uh, at--at one of the union biennials, uh, there were three people who were--who--who--chairing the social action workshop. Dave Sapperstein, uh--God, I can' ; t think of the rabbi--the other rabbi' ; s name. He' ; s very famous in the social action area. And Jack Miller. There were three of us--were chairing, which I thought was sort of exciting for me, you know, to be able--and those--you know, in that, uh, context, uh-- FERNHEIMER: This was in the ' ; 60s? MILLER: Yeah, probably, or early ' ; 70s, maybe. FERNHEIMER: So, would you say--uh, we started this part of the conversation talking about your--kind of your leadership role in ZBT, as president. Um-- MILLER: Well ------(??) FERNHEIMER: --how would you say that your experiences as-- MILLER: Oh, I think it helps. I think it--I think that--and I think that--I think that being advisor to the youth group, you know, the organizational kind of standpoint, uh, uh, you know, it was, uh, always helpful. It was very helpful. Uh, you know, ' ; cause I--you know, you could--you say what did you learn being president? I can' ; t tell you. But I know that I learned a lot of patience, you know? You got diverse kinds of people, uh, with diverse ideas and diverse opinions and, uh, you have to deal with all of it. And, uh, uh, ' ; cause that sort of role is--is very helpful. FERNHEIMER: So, you talked a lot about these experiences as--as leading the youth and this kind of impactful experience of watching D.C. burn? How does that element of civil rights play into the way that you think about either your role as a leader or your role--or your Jewish identity? I think that was the question that sort of started as down this path. MILLER: Well, um, it certainly made me aware of--more aware of--of, uh, the issues. Um, I' ; ve always been some--somewhat liberal, uh, from the standpoint of--of--of, uh, black/white relations. Probably not as much as some others. Uh, you know, my brother was much more outgoing in those areas than--than I was. But, um, we--we had a maid growing up. She lived at our house. She lived--she got--be off one day a week. Uh, we would go to her house and pick her up and sit in the house and talk to her and her daughter and son-in-law and nephew. Uh, we never called her maid or anything like that. It was Emma, you know? Uh, and, she would--she would take us out for--when we were kids. I mean, she would take us out for walks and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was she African American? MILLER: Oh, yeah. Her--her son-in-law was--was the custodian of--I think it then was Johnson School, but I' ; m not sure what--someplace downtown. Uh, but, uh, she was--I mean, it--it--I never had any--you know, I--I' ; d--I didn' ; t stay out of--of, uh, of, uh, the, uh, ten cent store because the blacks were going to sit at the counter. Uh, you know, it--you know, uh, [and it' ; s?]--another person. I didn' ; t--I wasn' ; t--however, I wasn' ; t like some other people I know who--who, uh, you know, would, uh, go sit in the back of the bus just because that' ; s where the blacks were sitting. They would--the whites sat--these white people that I knew would go sit in the back of the bus, you know? (laughs) Well, I was--but I never paid any attention to it, you know? I' ; m not sure I could tell you that there were blacks sitting in the back of the bus, or not sitting in the front. I don' ; t think I ever paid any attention to it. Um-- FERNHEIMER: Did you experience--or, I guess, let me rephrase that. How were your experiences when you walked through town with Emma? Were you a--did others treat you differently? MILLER: No. No. Mr. Foley, who was our mailman, would stop and would give us rides and--in the back of his mail truck, you know? You know, was just--you know, my friends would call her--you know, they' ; d come to the house and they' ; d call her Emma, too, you know? It was not-- FERNHEIMER: Was it common? MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Did your friends also have-- MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: --live-in maids? MILLER: No, no. None that I would have--no, none of my friends had any. So, I mean, it was just something that we had, you know? FERNHEIMER: So, I guess related to that--it seems strange to transition this conversation back, but in some ways, um, did you have any experiences of anti-Semitism while you were a student at UK? MILLER: No, no. FERNHEIMER: And did you ever--well, you described going off campus for Hillel, which took place at the temple. Um, and can you tell me a little bit of--more about what Jewish life was like in Lexington at that time? And perhaps connected--well, start with that, and I have a follow-up question for you. MILLER: Well, yeah, I mean, I think that most of Jewish life was either--was centered around the congregations. Uh, you know, people would--people would have functions in their homes, you know, and we' ; d have parties or something. But, uh, you know, I think that, you know, that the--um, just like I told you about Passover, you know, that was--that was a community function, you know? And--and, uh, I mean, both congregations now say, well, it' ; s a community, uh, or congregational Seder. Uh, but many--in both congregations [were all?] three, probably. The [Havarah?]. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. (laughter) I was, like, the third--right. The Havarah. MILLER: Would, um, draw--uh, you know, more than--would have in somebody' ; s home. But--but it' ; s not--didn' ; t have the exclusivity like it did then, or doesn' ; t have the exclusivity that, like, it did then, uh, because there were, you know, more--you know, they would--there would be another Passover, another Seder, you know? FERNHEIMER: Mm. MILLER: And--and not necessarily that one would be more important than the other, but they--you know, they would be, certainly, different segments. FERNHEIMER: Of the community? It sounds really separated. MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, what were some of the other highlights of your time as a student at UK? MILLER: Oh, you know, I--I--I can' ; t--I really can' ; t think of highlights, as such, other than, you know, just the few different activities that happened, but, uh, you know, pledging, that was fun, you know? It was--I mean, in those days, you--you know, they--you had to--you had to wear--we had to wear, uh, at least one day a week, I guess, on whatever day ------(??) meeting was, we had to wear sack cloths underneath our clothes. Uh, you know, it was sort of a--what do they call it? Uh, you know, doing those kind of--stuff. Uh, you know, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Sort of like hazing? MILLER: Hazing, yeah. It was--there was--it was sort of a--sort of a hazing sort of thing. Uh, which you--you can' ; t do that anymore. Uh, you know, and, uh, I mean, it never--I don' ; t think it ever got out of hand, hazing, at least in our fraternity. But, you know, there were just those kinds of things that we did. And I--you know, uh, it sort of brings you more together that you' ; re--you know, you' ; re--you' ; re--you can [hate the actives?] and, you know, and, uh, when you' ; re pledges, and--and, uh, you can--you' ; re lowlife as a pledge, when you' ; re inactive, and--(laughs)--you know, it--and--and, uh, uh, and the road trip that we took George on. And, uh, uh--(laughs)--uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you have any advice you' ; d give to Jewish students at UK today? MILLER: Well, I think they ought to have a fraternity again. Uh, you know, I don' ; t know how many Jewish students there are at UK anymore. Uh, but they--after--after ZBT went out of business, uh, they--they-- FERNHEIMER: When did--when did the house close? MILLER: [I don' ; t know?]. FERNHEIMER: Do you know? MILLER: I don' ; t-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- MILLER: --remember. It was after I was gone. Uh, we moved over to Maxwellton Court. They moved, uh-- FERNHEIMER: From State Street to Maxwell Court? MILLER: Maxwellton Court, there by the College of the Bible, uh, off of Limestone. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: It' ; s one of the streets up there. Uh, yeah, I--it just--it dwindled. I guess the--the population started diminishing and--and, uh, just wasn' ; t enough--that--they started another fraternity. I can' ; t remember which one it was. Jewish fraternity. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was it A-E-Pi [Alpha Epsilon Pi]? MILLER: No, it was Phi something or other, but-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- MILLER: --I think, but I can' ; t remember. I think maybe Alan Stine was in that, but I--was in there, but I can' ; t remember what it was, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: It' ; s--Phi Delta Phi, that' ; s a sorority, isn' ; t it? Yeah. Or Phi Sigma something, I don' ; t know. I can' ; t remember, but-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; ll ask. MILLER: --the sorority went out of existence a lot sooner than the fraternity did. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. They never had a house-- MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: --and so-- MILLER: No, I think most of the girls lived in Jewell Hall, but-- FERNHEIMER: Jewell Hall? MILLER: Uh-huh. Was there on--on, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Any other advice? MILLER: ------(??) FERNHEIMER: Besides starting a fraternity, or maybe a sorority? MILLER: Uh, well, you know, I--[just to?]--I mean, I like what I hear that they' ; re doing with the Hillel. Uh, I think that needs to be pushed. FERNHEIMER: Why is that so important? MILLER: Well, because it--as it exists now, that' ; s the only Jewish, uh, activity on campus, far as I know. And--and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And that' ; s important? MILLER: --you know, besides your--besides your program, of course, but--(laughter)--but, I mean, you know, that' ; s--that--that, uh, that you generally look at in relation to sociological standpoint. And I, you know, I think it' ; s--I think it' ; s important, uh, in particular at that age to--to have something that you can, uh, hold onto or tie your--your know, tie your string around, uh, as a--you know, as a Jewish student. And, yeah, I think they probably--and I don' ; t know if that' ; s true or not, but I--my guess is that there are probably some Jewish students on campus that belong to other--that belong to fraternities and sororities that, in the past, did not have that. Um, but it' ; s not the same, you know? It' ; s--it' ; s, uh--and it--uh, there' ; s a--there' ; s a fellah here in town who is not Jewish who was a ZBT someplace else, I don' ; t know where he was. I can' ; t remember. Uh, he used to work for me at the county attorney' ; s office. Uh, but, uh, um, you know, I--I just--uh, you know, I think that it' ; s--it' ; s--it' ; s important that there be some--something that--that they can associate each--with each other--with, and--and, uh, you know, that' ; s why it' ; s nice to--to have the Hillel, because there' ; s nothing else that you can go to where there' ; s other males and females [and?] ------(??) in together, individually and together, uh, on--on campus. And I just think that' ; s terribly important. FERNHEIMER: And the social component, the-- MILLER: Yeah, I mean, it' ; s--especially in today' ; s day and time, uh, you know? FERNHEIMER: Well, you' ; ve already started to talk a little bit about the ways that Jewishness figured in your adult life after ZBT and after your time at UK, um, being president of the temple and advising the youth group and being the regional advisor. Were there other ways that you were involved with the Jewish community after college? MILLER: Well-- FERNHEIMER: That--that already-- MILLER: --I was-- FERNHEIMER: --seems pretty impressive. MILLER: Well, I was--I was one of the early presidents of what is now, uh, uh, Federation, before it was Federation, but I was-- FERNHEIMER: What was it called then? Central-- MILLER: Central Kentucky Jewish Association. And that' ; s--uh, it' ; s sort of a joke around--the people who were here at the time. Uh, I was opposed to creating CKJF [Central Kentucky Jewish Federation] initially. FERNHEIMER: Because? MILLER: I just didn' ; t think there was any need for that sort of thing. Uh, and I changed my mind. Uh, we have meeting--we have meetings, [and--and now]--I guess it was when I was president. [It was to have?]--uh, but I would go to meetings and we would sit there and people would talk about it and the need for it and, you know, and what it should do and what it could do. And I changed my mind. And when we were talking about, uh, what a name should be, [it--you know, it?] ended up being CKJF. People thought they would call it JACK, Jewish Association of Central Kentucky. But the acronym JACK--(laughter)--that was a joke. But they--but that' ; s what the--you know? (laughs) It' ; s because of--you know, because of my initial, uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Reluctance, or-- MILLER: --reluctance to have such a-- FERNHEIMER: What changed your mind? MILLER: I think that it was at a point in time when there was a need for--association between the different entities of the Jewish community. FERNHEIMER: So, there was a-- MILLER: Together. FERNHEIMER: --a need for an institutional-- MILLER: Inst--yeah, institutional kind of thing, you know? FERNHEIMER: Uh-- MILLER: You know, it' ; s one thing to have the temple and it' ; s one thing to have the synagogue. It' ; s one thing to have whatever the--Havarah that is now existing but it wasn' ; t then. But, you know, it--it' ; s the--the bringing together--you know, probably the only thing that we would do, even in those days, together, was have the service at the cemetery between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, you know? When the two rabbis would--would lead--(laughs)--the, uh, service at the cemetery. Uh, and I think that the people who were in favor showed me that this is the kind of stuff that needs to be expanded on. Uh, never thought that I would see the day that we had so many of the--so many programs--which I think is great, by the way--between the-- FERNHEIMER: Through the Federation-- MILLER: --but--no, no, between-- FERNHEIMER: Shared-- MILLER: --between-- FERNHEIMER: --between the-- MILLER: --the congregations, and Federation. Um, you know, and I--you know, I just think that--yeah, sometimes I think maybe--because of the continuity between the congregations is so good that maybe it' ; s outlived its existence--its need for Federation. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. MILLER: I--I don' ; t--I' ; m--I' ; m not saying that it has, but, you know, it' ; s--it' ; s--the initial reason for having it may not be the same thing that we need as a central point of having it now, [I mean?]-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah, as communities evolve-- MILLER: Right. FERNHEIMER: --institutions evolve. MILLER: Right. I mean, of course, that--the problem with that is that you' ; re talking about whoever is here at this congregation and who' ; s at this congregation, you know? That could--they could end up being at loggerheads with each other and then never--you know, so, but I don' ; t anticipate that happening. But, I mean, what we have now is, uh, I think is going to be very, uh, progressive, uh, you know, ' ; cause Rabbi Wirtschafter' ; s prior connection with the synagogue and with the community--uh, through his family, of course, but--' ; cause he was too young when he was here, but, uh, you know, I--it' ; s--it' ; s, uh, you know, it' ; s there with him. And--and I think that, uh, you know, uh, I mean, his--his mother, as I' ; m sure you know, is one of the founders of--of, uh, Camp Shalom. Uh, or was one of the-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --and is--and this--in--initiating forces within it when they were here. Um, so, you know, and--and I think that--you know, I--well--well, I' ; m not [going to just?] get to that point--(laughter)--but, you know, I just think that--who--who--the--that the--Rabbi [Smolkin?] is--is a very outgoing kind of person, and I think Rabbi Wirtschafter' ; s going to be that same sort of person. And I--I think that it will only be great for the two congregations and for the Jewish community in--in general. FERNHEIMER: You--in your many roles over the years, what--what--I guess, um, I' ; m trying to formulate a question. I' ; m not doing a very good job of it. MILLER: [That' ; s?]-- FERNHEIMER: Uh, you--you' ; ve seen the communities evolve a lot. MILLER: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Um, and it--what you' ; ve been describing is this very separate--uh, [it' ; s almost?] separate, uh, socially between the temple and the synagogue that there was a need for a third institution to be formed, the Central Kentucky Jewish Federation, that--if--am I understanding correctly that part of the impetus for that was to form a space where the communities could come together? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, and as you' ; ve been talking right now about the sort of contemporary scene-- MILLER: Oh, I' ; m not saying that it ought to be done away with. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. MILLER: [Okay?], I' ; m not--you know, I don' ; t want to come across as that. I' ; m just saying that--that, um--and, you know, and I think they do--I think programmatically, uh, I think that--that the, uh, federation is--is making available, uh, programs that, uh, can further, uh, the association with everybody who is Jewish in the community-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --which is, uh, which is--has got to be important. And, you know, and as--you know, knock on wood, uh, we haven' ; t seen the--in Lexington, uh, we have not seen the, uh, viral, uh, anti-Semitism here that you' ; ve seen in a lot of other communities. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Uh, and I--and I think that--I think that' ; s because, uh, we have, as a community, have made available contact between these groups that might, uh, be, uh, directed in those directions. That' ; s--not very good way to say it. But, uh, you know, I--I think that--uh, I know when Rabbi [Kline?] was here and I--you know, I don' ; t--haven' ; t seen yet about, uh--uh, Rabbi Wirtschafter, I don' ; t know what his feelings are in--in relation to the, um, uh, Middle Eastern religions in--you know, in this community. Rabbi Kline was very, um, active in--in, uh, working with and having, uh, uh, some of the, uh, people from the, uh, uh, Muslim community into the temple, and he went to their--and--and I think that those kinds of contacts, uh, are important in order to maintain the stability that, uh, to this point we have been very fortunate to have. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Uh, so, I--you know, I--I--uh, you know, uh, I think we need to know about everybody, you know? And--and, uh, when I say everybody, I mean all the different segments in this community that--that can be divisive. Uh, I mean, we' ; ve had--I know at the temple, we' ; ve had, uh, um, uh, the head of, uh, opera department at university--black gentleman, I can' ; t remember what his name is. But, uh, he and his choir have been to the temple and sang, uh, and, uh, you know, I think that' ; s good, you know? Because there' ; s an involvement with a segment of the community. Um, and--and I think we' ; ve got to be aware of--of real life, you know? That' ; s--that' ; s--that' ; s one of the things I think is great about having, uh, young rabbinical leaderships, uh, because I think that, you know, regardless of how strict or liberal or conservative or whatever that you--what term you want to be--is--of the individuals who are in leadership positions, whether they be rabbinical or lay, uh, uh, I think that the more we are open, the better this community will be as--as far as we' ; re concerned, you know? I--we can' ; t stop blacks or whites or whatever it might be killing the other, you know--we can' ; t stop that. Uh, uh, but we can make it so that it does not focus on us, if that makes any sense. I--you know-- FERNHEIMER: Can you--tell me a little bit more about that. I' ; m trying to wrap my head around it. MILLER: Well, uh, well, well, what--saying is that I think that the more we' ; re--the more we are open to discussions with the various groups, whatever that might be, whether it be religious or, uh, economic or--or, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, race--I don' ; t know what other term you use--that that will make--of course, there--always potential splinter individuals, but, uh, I think it will make it less--less, uh, open to antagonism, uh, between those groups and us, if that makes--if that makes any sense. I' ; m, uh-- FERNHEIMER: I think I understand what you' ; re getting at. Um, sort of the more, uh, exposure-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --it sounds like-- MILLER: Right. FERNHEIMER: --to different groups and ideas, um, the better it is for the Jewish community? MILLER: Yes, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Is that a-- MILLER: Right, I--you know, and that' ; s what I--I' ; m looking at it from that standpoint that, you know, uh, sure, it' ; s better for the individuals, too, to be able to be more open. But I' ; m talking about just as far as a group is concerned. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Uh, [am I?] suggesting maybe [you will?] have to go out and march for somebody? No, I' ; m not suggesting that is necessarily--uh, you can if you want to. Uh, that' ; s an individual choice. But I' ; m talking about from the--from a group standpoint, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, you' ; re making a distinction between the Jewish community as a--as a collectivity and individual-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --Jewish members-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --of that community. MILLER: Yeah. I mean, you' ; re--you' ; re never going to have unanimity about any of it. I mean, heaven forbid you should talk about politics--(laughs)--you know? (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um, well, that--you' ; ve kind of touched a little bit on this, but, um, how--how would you describe the changes in the Jewish community that you' ; ve witnessed during the time that you' ; ve been here? And, you know, you have quite a--a good stretch to--to think about-- MILLER: Well, I think that--for the most part, I think that everybody--no, that' ; s--that won' ; t--that' ; s too--I don' ; t like that word. I think that for the most part, uh, I' ; ve seen more openness, um, as to--in--to be inclusive, uh, of everybody in the community, as opposed to being exclusive. Uh, you know, I--even though it' ; s a synagogue or a temple program, I think it is open to the Jewish community. And I think that' ; s--that' ; s something that I wouldn' ; t have seen growing up here, you know? It' ; s a--it' ; s--it' ; s a much more inclusive community than it was eighty years ago, seventy years ago, you know? Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And why do you think that is? MILLER: (laughs) I think that growing up, uh, we have seen so many changes in this world. Um, I think that our--our leadership, whether it be rabbinic or lay is much more liberal--and I don' ; t mean that from a religious standpoint--much more open-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-- MILLER: --to inclusiveness. Um, I think maybe it begins on a social standpoint, uh, where Johnny and Harry, who belong to two different congregations, are friends because they went to school together, because they--you know, whatever it might be. And they--it--it spreads, you know? And--and I think that this is probably the biggest change in this community, you know? You know, forget how--you know, sure, the Reform movement has--has moved more towards the center. And sure, the Conservative movement has moved more to the center. Um, sure, there are members of the--each of the congregations who are di--you know, diametrically opposed to each other--each other, within their own community, [with?] their own congregations. But, from the standpoint of--of inclusiveness, I think that we have seen such an openness that I would never have believed, growing up, would have occurred. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. MILLER: Yeah, I' ; ve said--you know, and I know--now, you know, and I plead guilty--have said, you know, they' ; re nothing but a bunch of--you know, [over here?], you know? And I know there are people that have said the same thing over here, you know, going this way. I can tell you that part of my change in attitude had to do with my wife. You know, she was not--yeah, I mean, when she first came to town, she taught Sunday school at the synagogue. After we got married, at one point she taught the class, you know, at every [place?]. I mean, you know, at the temple. But I' ; ve seen--you know, I' ; ve seen this--this difference--I look at--I look at one differently than I did forty years ago, you know? Sure, the world has changed, but so have I, you know? Yeah, you know, sometimes I' ; m not as comfortable at one--at, you know, at--you know, but--you know, I don' ; t know--I don' ; t--you know, I don' ; t know Hebrew, you know? (laughs) You know, I can--I--I can--you know, I get--I probably could--never had a bar mitzvah if Susan hadn' ; t bugged me. Not bugged me, that' ; s not the right word. But hadn' ; t done--been so helpful to me in learning to read the Hebrew, you know? I' ; d never thought about reading Hebrew, you know? And, you know, and John--and our--the--the temple--and I don' ; t--I know there' ; s been a change at the synagogue of the--of the, uh, prayer books-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --uh, at the temple. They' ; re on their--their third or fourth change. The latest one, which I' ; m not knowing, the red, is much more gender neutral. Uh, but when--when--in the old Union prayer book, you know, yeah, there' ; d be some Hebrew in there, and occasionally [it' ; d] be read. But, like I said, we didn' ; t have bar mitzvah or bat mitzvahs, you know? Confirmation, uh, I don' ; t remember if we had to read any Hebrew or not, but-- FERNHEIMER: Mostly in English. MILLER: --probably, you know, maybe the prayers before the--before and after the reading of the Torah. But, uh, you know, I--I think that there' ; s been such a--an--there' ; s such an openness in this community. I can' ; t tell you about other places. But in this community, that--is--is heartwarming to see, you know? Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Can I shift the conversation a little bit? MILLER: Sure. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about how your Jewishness is different from that of your parents? MILLER: Oh--(laughs)--I' ; ll--we have, uh, uh, so, when the kids are here, in particular, you know, we give presents for--for, uh, Chanukah. Uh, you know, uh, light--we don' ; t always light the candles, because it' ; s just the two of us, so--you know, we don' ; t always do that. But we have the menorahs in the house. I don' ; t think we had a menorah at our house growing up. I may be wrong, but I don' ; t remember one. Uh, so, I--you know, I think that the--you know, I just--I just think that that' ; s--um, I' ; m much more religious, I--uh, in some ways. Yeah, I--I' ; m not necessarily as religious as--uh, maybe I might want to be, but I don' ; t go to services that often. I haven' ; t been to the services at temple in some time. Uh, I go, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Has it changed over the years? MILLER: Huh? FERNHEIMER: Your relationship to Judaism, has it changed? Or how has it changed over the years? MILLER: Well-- FERNHEIMER: You mentioned your wife as a kind of key moment. MILLER: Yeah. I mean, I--I think that' ; s true, I--you know, and--and, um, I listen more at services when I' ; m there. I--you know, I--my--I have--my attention span is never really very good. Um, but I--I find in myself--you know, in particular when the rabbis are talking, whether, you know, a sermon or--or whatever it might be, get--you know, talking about it, a prayer or whatever they might be talking about it--as some--you know, I will--I may not remember all what they said, but I tend to listen to ' ; em more than--than I did. Um, you know, I--I--I' ; m much less likely--well, ' ; cause I don' ; t wear a watch that often anymore. But I' ; m much more likely not to be looking to see, you know, is it time--about time for the service to be over, um, then I used to be, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And if--you have children? MILLER: One. FERNHEIMER: One. It--how--you--one son? MILLER: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And how is your relationship to Jewish identity and practice compared to his? MILLER: Oh, well, mine is much more. Uh, he married a non-Jewish girl. Uh, he--he joined the temple here, uh, so that he can go to services in New York, uh, without joining the congregation up there. Uh, but I think that probably for the High Holidays is the only time he' ; ll go to services up there. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And his children? MILLER: Well, nothing yet. I don' ; t know what' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: They' ; re still pretty small, right? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Three and-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --one or-- MILLER: [I mean?], he' ; s--uh, you know, I don' ; t know what' ; s going to happen, and I--you know, uh, I think that they' ; re not going to push any particular religion. Uh, they were married by--there' ; s a group, apparently, in New York of clergy that will marry anybody. You know, different things. Well, it--they--they interviewed--and this one--the one that they end up choosing was a woman who had been Jewish. She converted to some non-Jewish religion. And then she has converted back to Judaism, so that the--(laughs)--so that the service, they did several of the--they--they broke the glass and they did--she did--they did prayers, you know, the Jewish prayers, and--uh, so, I mean, it was a--I mean, I don' ; t think they ever talked about Jesus. I may be wrong, but I didn' ; t hear it. But, uh, but it was--you know, they had some of the Christian stuff in there, you know? But it was a--it was a--it was that sort of a--a, uh, wedding. Uh, it was non-denominational sort of thing, but, um, but included everybody. So, you know, we' ; ll just have to wait and see how that turns out. FERNHEIMER: How would you say where you grew up and lived your adult life here in Kentucky has affected your Jewish identity or your relationship with Judaism? MILLER: Oh, I think that growing up in a community this size, it probably is more than would have happened if I would--grown up in a bigger community, uh, because of the need for the relational situation, you know, [would?]--having a group--you know, if--if I was--if I was Jewish and it was just--if there was no congregation involved, it would have been very difficult to--for me to go to churches with--you know, because I need someplace to go. Uh, so, I--you know, I think that growing up here, uh, while--albeit, it was a small, uh--it was very, um, big, if that makes any sense. I mean, it was--it was a focal--I mean, all of my parents' ; friends were Jewish, or most of them. Um, and most of their association was, you know, outside of work, uh, [where?] my father was--was, uh--from a social standpoint was Jewish. Um, and, uh, I mean, there was never any question they were Jewish, you know, even though we had Christmas. Uh, it was just something that everybody did, you know? It was no big deal, you know? FERNHEIMER: Christmas or-- MILLER: Yeah. I mean, it wasn' ; t--we didn' ; t celebrate the birth of Christ, you know? It was--it was a holiday, you know? Everybody celebrates Christmas, you know? I mean, that' ; s just the way it was. FERNHEIMER: Like Thanksgiving. MILLER: Yeah. I mean, we--our--we had--my parents had friends down the street who were Jewish. We would go down to their house and decorate their Christmas tree Christmas Eve, you know? You know, it was--that' ; s just things that--at least the people that my parents were around did that. You know, I mean, it' ; s--yeah, no, it' ; s not Jewish. But it wasn' ; t something that was anti-Jewish. It was just another holiday. FERNHEIMER: Is there anything that I haven' ; t asked you about that you' ; d like to share? MILLER: (laughs) I can' ; t imagine--(laughs)--uh, you know, I--it' ; s a--you know, I' ; m--I' ; m--it--I' ; m glad to--have been able to do this, because, you know, it--it--the [folks--uh, it?]--I got to look back at some of the things that--uh, you know, that you were going to talk about that I might not have gone back and re--re--looked at. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: Yeah. I--you know, it' ; s a--I don' ; t have--I don' ; t have the vivid memory that some people have about their--you know, like about at UK and that kind of stuff of--but, uh, to me, the things that are important, I remember, you know? And--and at least the things that are important to me, I remember. And--and, uh, you know, it' ; s just like the--the different activities and things. You know, uh, and everything wasn' ; t--don' ; t get me wrong, everything wasn' ; t hunky-dory, both--you know, at the--the temple and all that kind of stuff. There was--there was a lot of struggles, a lot of bad feelings that went on over the period of time. Um, and--and some pretty harsh things went on. But, uh, those things show--do pass, you know? And--and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Anything in particular that you-- MILLER: --uh, that-- FERNHEIMER: --recall? MILLER: Yeah, but I' ; m not going to talk about it. (laughs) Well, it--it' ; s--it' ; s--we had some difficulties over--over--over, uh, employee hiring and maintaining--and, uh, some people got to the point that they even left the congregation because of it. Uh, most of those people have come back. You know, the--the Havarah started, initially, as a result of the, uh, inability of women to participate in--in services. People left the synagogue because of that and started the Havarah. Most of those people have come back and joined both--still--keep both places, and some don' ; t, uh, you know. And some just belong to that for whatever reason and not belong to either of the congregations. But, you know, everything isn' ; t always--you know, you can' ; t expect everything to--to--to operate, um, without problems. I mean, life-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah-- MILLER: --isn' ; t that great, you know, to--for that to happen. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: Uh, I wished it did. But, you know, and--and--and within the Jewish community, it' ; s--it' ; s the same thing. Yeah, you know, uh, uh, you know, and--and, you know, it--it was at one point when they were talking about joining the two congregations, we were--the--the temple bought a piece of property [out on Mount Table?] Road that was going to be used for a new temple. Uh, didn' ; t happen. They sold it and made--profit on it, but, uh, it--you know, things--things change and things come back, you know? And--and, uh, uh, I--you know, I--I--for me, you know, I said it before, I think, but from a rabbinical standpoint, I think that I can' ; t remember a time that both congregations have--have young, vibrant leadership. And--and I say young. To me, everybody' ; s young, but--(laughs)--you know? But, uh, it--it--I think that it' ; s--it' ; s a--a--it' ; s a--it' ; s an encouraging situation, for--for the community of Lexington-- FERNHEIMER: --oh-- MILLER: --and central Kentucky, you know? I--I just, uh--I--I--I--you know, I' ; m--I' ; m--I' ; m very happy for it, uh, and, you know, at some point in time, I--maybe I' ; ll start going back to--to services. (laughter) But, um, uh, I' ; m--I' ; m at a--I' ; m at an age where I' ; m one of these--the senior members now, so--(laughs)--um, you know, and--and that' ; s--well, just let me finish this one thing and-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: Uh, we have a group that--that--that you probably heard about from some of these other people. But, uh, we' ; re called the, uh, whatever ------(??) called, I can' ; t think what we' ; re called. But we have a group of fellahs that have lunch, uh, on--on--every Friday at different restaurants. And, um, it' ; s fun. You know, it' ; s a--it' ; s a Jewish group at--you know, and--and Earl comes. Uh, but he' ; s the only, as far as I--think, the only non-temple member that--that comes to the--to lunch. But, it' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: Is it most-- MILLER: --it' ; s certainly not keeping people out, uh, you know? It--um-- FERNHEIMER: Who else participates? I' ; ve heard a little bit about the lunch bunch. MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Does Mike [Adees?] go? MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Yeah, I don' ; t--I can' ; t remember if Mike--[though?], see, Mike' ; s still working, I think, so, uh, but I' ; ll--it' ; s--it' ; s, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, it' ; s mostly retirees? MILLER: Yeah, yeah, most--for the most part. I mean, Earl still works, but, uh, uh, I think, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Is there a president of the lunch bunch? MILLER: No. (laughter) No. We vote every time--every Friday where we' ; re going to go the next Friday. (laughs) It' ; s a very--very democratic, with a small D, group. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How big is lunch bunch? MILLER: Oh, we usually have between eight and ten, eleven people. FERNHEIMER: And what are the types of restaurants you frequent? MILLER: Oh, we go--I mean, we go to Olive Garden, we go to the--uh, we go to a Mexican--restaurants, we go to Mandarin Chinese, we go to another Chinese, we go to--uh, uh, [was a?] steak place out there. Long something or long--Longhorn, uh, we go to Golden Corral, you know? We--we--we pretty much cross the--the, uh, town on place, and we try not to go downtown, ' ; cause there' ; s no place to park. But, uh, we' ; re--we' ; re pretty open to almost anything. We go to the new places that--uh, somebody' ; s always gone to ' ; em and, uh, uh, [is the?]-- FERNHEIMER: And is-- MILLER: --place there in front of [South Christian?] Church on Richmond Road. I can' ; t remember what the name of that is. [Nelly' ; s?] or--forget--I can' ; t remember the name of it. We went there once and, uh, we went to [Koba?] once and--so, we' ; ve been--we go to all kinds of places. FERNHEIMER: And it' ; s mostly a social club? MILLER: Oh, yeah, that' ; s all it is. We just get together and chitchat. We--12:30 to 1:30-ish, you know? Thereabouts. FERNHEIMER: Who--who--so, it' ; s you, Earl-- MILLER: Marty, uh, [Bill Gemlen?], uh, uh, Dave--uh, Dan--uh, not Dan--yeah, Dan [Ayuris?], uh, uh, Marty, uh-- FERNHEIMER: More than one Marty? MILLER: --Marty Kaplan. FERNHEIMER: Oh. MILLER: Uh, there' ; s--there' ; s three or--you know, there' ; s--there' ; s ------(??) FERNHEIMER: Some other gentleman. MILLER: Jerry--Jerry, you know, Jerry Wormser, as well. He comes and, uh, Harold Maker used to come, uh, and what' ; s his name? Uh, I can' ; t even remember what his name is now. Passed away. But, uh, he used to--belonged to the Havarah, so he used to come and--and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Ned? Not Ned. I don' ; t know that many names-- MILLER: [That?]--no, I can' ; t [remember, but?]-- FERNHEIMER: --from the Havarah. MILLER: But, uh, you know, we--it' ; s a--it' ; s just fun, you know, just to--go to the Good Foods co-op sometimes and-- FERNHEIMER: Nice. And--well, you wanted to make sure you included that before we conclude, so-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --tell me why, and then, uh-- MILLER: [Yeah, well?], why? Because it' ; s Jewish and--but it' ; s--we don' ; t talk about religion very--yeah, we do talk about Israel some, but, uh, it' ; s--it' ; s--it' ; s just fun to just--for no reason at all except to socialize, and it--uh, they have--you know, sometimes we go to lunch at the temple when they have that, uh--I can never pronounce it, but the luncheon on--seniors on--[or in the?]--uh, Fridays, you know? Uh, once a month. So, I mean, you know, we--we--it' ; s just a--it' ; s a--it' ; s a Jewish--but it' ; s a--it' ; s a fun--just time--just to--us old folks to get together. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, I' ; m glad that you mentioned it and that we have it on the record, ' ; cause I' ; ve-- MILLER: Yeah. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: --been hearing little bits about it here and there. (laughter) Uh, but, um, I want to thank you for spending your afternoon with me-- MILLER: ------(??) FERNHEIMER: --talking about all these different social organizations, um, and I hope that it would be okay, if we have some follow-up questions, that we-- MILLER: Sure. FERNHEIMER: --send someone back up to-- MILLER: No problem. FERNHEIMER: --meet with you. But thanks again, Jack. I really appreciate your-- MILLER: My pleasure. FERNHEIMER: --time. MILLER: Oh, my pleasure. FERNHEIMER: Um-- END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh343_jk007_miller_ohm.xml 2015oh343_jk007_miller_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh343_jk007_miller_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jack Miller, August 31, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Miller was born in Lexington, Kentucky. His family originated from Germany. Miller's family opened a general store on the corner of Main street and Broadway. Starbucks is located there today. The store was a general store opened sometime in the 1870s. Jack also operated a law firm after he graduated in 1962.
Miller discusses how and why his family put up a Christmas tree even though they were heavily involved in Temple life. He also mentions the divide between the Temple and the Synagogue. He was also a part of the first B'nai Mitzvah group, however, this didn't occur until later in life. Miller also discusses his relationship with Rabbi Grafman, one of the seven clergy men to sign the "Letter to Birmingham Jail," to Martin Luther King, which was written on April 16, 1963.
Miller discusses how he attended the University of Kentucky undergraduate and post-graduate programs. Miller talks about being president of his fraternity, as well as its location and what social life was like. He also talks about being involved in Hillel. He graduated in 1962. Miller served in Fort Knox and then Fort Jackson, South Carolina. He took a year off from school because he was required to serve at least six months of active duty. He was a part of the Medical Corp.
Identifier
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2015oh343_jk007
Subject
The topic of the resource
Childhood
Jewish children
Jewish families.
Religion
Jews--Identity.
United States--Race relations.
African Americans--Relations with Jews.
Worship (Judaism)
Greek letter societies.
University of Kentucky
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/effa220ef28f300a044748968b041700.jpeg
1764ca8c9269f82bb8ebaf6f05f61cc5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Erle Levy
Interview Keyword
Entrepreneurship
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
Holidays.
Marriage
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh319_jk006 Interview with Erle Levy, August 19, 2015 2015oh319_jk006 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Jewish children Religion Jewish businesspeople College students--Social conditions College students--Religious life Greek letter societies. Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Entrepreneurship Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Holidays. Marriage Erle Levy Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|21(11)|63(3)|82(6)|138(11)|172(6)|204(12)|241(3)|274(3)|295(12)|319(7)|329(6)|342(4)|365(9)|380(7)|409(8)|440(12)|461(16)|502(4)|533(3)|563(3)|606(4)|634(9)|660(3)|696(9)|719(10)|762(2)|784(12)|801(8)|836(3)|859(3)|880(8)|917(3)|936(11)|960(6)|987(13)|1003(1)|1022(1)|1037(14)|1057(10)|1086(11)|1130(8)|1152(2)|1169(12)|1192(10)|1230(7)|1271(7)|1298(3)|1319(3)|1339(16)|1361(9)|1380(4)|1393(8)|1419(8)|1445(3)|1462(9)|1492(6)|1516(2)|1553(3)|1581(4)|1621(7)|1646(10)|1668(6)|1685(2)|1712(3)|1727(12)|1748(5)|1768(4)|1810(5)|1836(13)|1862(2)|1893(5)|1912(7)|1943(3)|1978(3)|2021(7)|2041(3)|2068(10)|2095(2)|2115(16)|2142(7)|2166(4)|2183(2)|2204(12)|2236(3)|2255(10)|2280(5)|2302(6)|2319(4)|2341(3)|2358(16)|2378(7)|2407(10)|2427(13)|2443(4)|2471(13)|2498(3)|2542(8)|2571(10)|2589(12)|2624(12)|2659(10)|2703(2)|2755(4) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253336883" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Introduction So before we get officially started, I'm going to say that today is August 19th, 2015. And my name is Janice Fernheimer and I am Associate Professor of Writing, Rhetoric, and Digital Studies and Director of Jewish Studies. Erle Levy discusses family lineage in Lexington. 1934 ; Baltimore (Md.) ; Barbara (Bobbie) Levy ; City Poultry ; Good Samaritan Hospital ; Hyman Vernon Levy ; Jewish ; Kentucky ; Pauline Gall Levy ; Phillip Gall ; Poland ; Rose Gall ; Rose Scher ; Russia ; Uedell Levy ; Verchovisky ; Vine Street [new name of Water Street] (Lexington, Ky.) ; Winchester (Ky.) Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.04291, -84.500433 17 Coordinates for Good Samaritan Hospital (where Erle Levy was born) in 1934. http://ukhealthcare.uky.edu/goodsamaritan/ Good Samaritan Hospital today. 334 Childhood and family origins So, you grew up here in Lexington. Levy discusses his childhood in Lexington, including his family's origins in Europe and Kentucky. 1930s ; 1940s ; Jukeboxes ; Limestone Road ; Main Street ; Music ; Poultry ; Record players ; Ridgeway Road ; Shropshire Boulevard ; Soldiers ; Strand Theatre ; The Barbecue Restaurant ; Vine Street ; World War II Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/8403/photos Strand Theatre, Lexington, Kentucky 774 Early school years, 1941-1945 So this is all during the time when you were a schoolboy. Levy discusses his childhood school life in Lexington. 1941-1945 ; Cassidy Elementary ; Elementary schools ; Henry Clay High School ; High schools ; Middle schools ; Morton Junior High ; Tates Creek Road Education--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish children ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.0159100, -84.4691000 17 Henry Clay GPS coordinates http://www.henryclay.fcps.net Henry Clay now 800 Childhood Judaism And during this time can you tell me a little bit about your parents' relationship to Judaism or your family? If there were family rituals or, uh, talk to me a little bit about that. Erle discusses his childhood life in relation to Judaism and family traditions. Alan Bloomfeild ; Bar mitzvahs ; Confirmation ; Conservative Judaism ; Gender segregation ; Hebrew ; Heder ; High Holy Days ; Ivan Goldfarb ; Jack Miller ; Jewish ; Marylin Bederman ; Maxwell Street ; Modern-Orthodox ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Orthadox ; Rosh Hashanah ; Sabbath ; Sandy Bederman ; Shabbat ; Shabbos ; Shul ; Sunday school ; Synagogues ; Temple Adath Israel ; Yom Kippur Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/39/19/9b/39199bb7891eaf2ae1a337f37af3e6e9.jpg Ohavay Zion Synagogue during the 1940s 1080 Jewish businesses in downtown Lexington Uh, I'm going to ask a question about--did they have any--was there kosher meat or were they interested in that at-- Levy discusses the Jewish businesses that existed in Lexington in the mid-twentieth century. Ben Snyder's ; Bissel ; Brown's Bootery ; Department store ; Department stores ; Downtown Lexington ; English ; Evelyn and Maurice Hymson ; Hilton (Lexington, Ky.) ; Hyman Levy ; Hymsons ; I. J. Miller ; Jewelry repair ; Jewelry stores ; Jewish ; Joe Rosenberg ; Kaufman's ; Kentucky Utilities ; Kosher ; Limestone Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Main Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Men's clothes ; Mill Street and Broadway ; Myers ; Nathan Herman ; Non-Kosher ; North Limestone Street ; Pawn stores ; Pawnshops ; Police reports ; Restaurant ; Rosenberg's ; Sabbath ; Shabbat ; Shabbos ; Strand Theatre ; Strauss's ; Tanya Herman ; The Barbecue Place ; Union Station ; Upper Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Walnut Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Water Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Wholesale meat ; Winniker's ; Wolf Wile's ; World War II ; Yiddish Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://www.kentuckytheater.com/images/eastmain1948.jpg Downtown Lexington, Kentucky, 1950s 1708 Family and childhood memories And what--what did your grandfather speak? What was his first language? Levy discusses his family and childhood memories and the importance of maintaining Jewish identity for his family. He discusses his Jewish education at the Temple (Adath Israel) and the Synagogue (Ohavay Zion). Alan Bloomfield ; Bar mitzvahs ; Confirmation ; English ; Fontaine Road ; Heder ; High Holidays ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Language ; Marriage ; Maxwell Street ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; Orthodox ; Religious observance ; Rosh Hashanah ; Temple Adath Israel ; Tradition ; Yiddish ; Yom Kippur Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.isjl.org/uploads/2/4/2/2/24228391/5019558.jpg Temple Adath Israel. 1977 University of Kentucky in the 1950s Wow. Is there, uh--now that we've talked a little bit about, uh, your childhood, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your experiences here at UK? Uh, I know-- Levy discusses his time at the University of Kentucky and his experiences in the Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) fraternity. 1951 ; Alan Bloomfield ; Business ; Commerce ; Fraternity ; Howard Johnson's motel ; Ivan Goldfarb ; Jack Miller ; Jewish ; Jewish fraternity ; Jim Wenneker ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Sandy Bederman ; Shul ; State Street ; Student life ; Student Union ; Sunday school ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel ; University of Kentucky (UK) ; Whitehall Classroom Building ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h9zsjWv2lTk/UjGfhz4MxbI/AAAAAAAAGgs/xDvOf36i9HA/s1600/070504pv.jpg Whitehall Classroom Building 2442 Zeta Beta Tau and UK student life Uh, can--I want to circle back to the, uh, fraternity though. Levy discusses his time in the ZBT Jewish fraternity and his college social life at the University of Kentucky. 113 State Street ; Anti-Semitism ; B'nai B'rith ; Bowling ; Boy Scouts ; Conservative Jews ; Fraternities ; Hillel ; Ivan Goldfarb ; Jack Miller ; Jewish fraternity ; Kentuckians ; Kentucky ; Marty Solomon ; Musicals ; Nicholasville Road ; Orthodox Jews ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Plays ; Rabbis ; Reform Jews ; Sandy Bederman ; Stuart Yussman ; Student Union ; Theatre ; University of Kentucky (UK) ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.030429, -84.51088199999998 17 GPS location of the ZBT house. https://coedmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/emory-zbt.jpg?quality=88 ZBT house 3648 Marriage Uh, what were the highlights of your time as a student at UK? Levy discusses meeting his (future) wife during college. 1955 ; Barker Hall ; Buell Armory ; College ; Drive in movies ; Graduation ; Ivan Goldfarb ; Jewish ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Nash Rambler ; Student Union ; Tradition ; University of Kentucky (UK) ; Whitehall Classroom Building ; Williamson (W. Va.) College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Marriage 17 https://libraries.uky.edu/images/uarptour/gymarmor.jpg Buell Armory 4125 Post-graduation And you all--did you stay in town after graduation? Levy discusses his life after UK, his marriage, and his life as a businessman. Howard Johnson motel ; Real estate business ; Real estate license ; Zandale Shopping Center Employment--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. 17 4212 Advice to current Jewish UK students and Jewish adult life And, uh, I missed a question. Uh, hopefully you'll-- Levy gives advice to current University of Kentucky Jewish students, and discusses his life as a Jewish adult. He talks about the shift seen with girls being allowed to be bat mitzvahed. B'nai B'rith ; Bat mitzvahs ; Bill Silliman ; College ; Confirmed ; DeWitt Hisle ; Family ; GI Bill ; Israel ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Jewish identity ; Jewish observance ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Kentucky Lighting ; Kosher for Passover ; Late 1950s ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Orthodox ; Ritual ; Sabbath ; Shabbat ; Shabbos ; Students ; Sunday school ; Temple Adath Israel ; Tradition ; University of Kentucky (UK) Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.ozs.org Ohavay Zion Synagogue today, where Levy attends services. 5021 Jewish community and personal perspectives Um, how have--um, I'm sorry I'm going back and-- Levy discusses his perspective on how the Jewish community has changed in Lexington, and of how his own Jewishness has changed. He talks about the social divide between Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Temple Adath Israel in Lexington. Advocacy ; Antisemitism ; Closed businesses for Jewish holidays ; High Holy Days ; Israel Bonds ; Jewish ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Minyan ; Orthodox Judaism ; Phillip Gall's store ; Rosh Hashanah ; Sabbath ; Shabbat ; Shabbos ; Social divide ; State of Israel ; Yom Kippur Holidays. ; Israel ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Religion and politics ; Worship (Judaism) 17 https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3361/3480830203_5331deec55.jpg Women from B'nai B'rith selling Israel Bonds. Oral History Erle Levy discusses family lineage in Lexington, Kentucky and Europe. He discusses his childhood school life in Lexington, and his childhood life in relation to Judaism and family traditions. He talks about the Jewish businesses that existed in Lexington in the mid-twentieth century. Levy discusses his time at the University of Kentucky and his experiences in the Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) fraternity. He talks about meeting his (future) wife during college. He discusses his life after UK, his marriage, and his life as a businessman. Levy discusses his perspective on how the Jewish community has changed in Lexington, and of how his own Jewishness has changed. He talks about the social divide between Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Temple Adath Israel in Lexington. FERNHEIMER: So before we get officially started, I' ; m going to say that today is August 19th, 2015. And my name is Janice Fernheimer and I am associate professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies and director of Jewish studies. And it is my great honor and pleasure to be interviewing Erle Levy as part of the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project. Uh, and so even though I just said your name, I' ; m hoping that you will, uh, help me out by stating your name at birth. LEVY: My name at birth was Erle Levy. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. And when and where were you born? LEVY: Uh, January 4th, 1934, Good Samaritan Hospital, Lexington, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: January 4th, 1934, right here in Lexington. LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: And what were your parents' ; names and occupations? LEVY: Uh, my mother' ; s name was Pauline, middle name Gall, that was her maiden name, uh, Levy, Pauline Levy. My father was Hyman Vernon Levy. FERNHEIMER: Vernon? LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: V-E-R-N-A-N? LEVY: N-O-N, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And did you have brothers and sisters? LEVY: I have a sister, B-- Barbara. But we called her Bobbie. Nobody calls her Barbara. FERNHEIMER: Bobbie I-E or Bobby Y? LEVY: B-O-B-B-I-E. FERNHEIMER: And how old is she relative to you? When was she born? LEVY: She was born four years later, ' ; 59. F-- ' ; 59. FERNHEIMER: Thirty-nine? LEVY: Thirty-eight. FERNHEIMER: Thirty-eight, okay. LEVY: (laughs) I' ; m sorry. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. Uh, and what were your parents' ; occupations? What did your parents-- LEVY: --my mother was a stay-at-home mom and my father when I was born was in the poultry business. FERNHEIMER: Here in town? LEVY: Yes, on Vine Street, uh[MC1]. FERNHEIMER: Who--who was he in business with? LEVY: Just himself. He called it City Poultry. It was just a few years but--maybe five or six years, seven years. FERNHEIMER: And were your parents, uh, the first ones to live in Lexington or did you have family that came to the US before that? LEVY: My grandparents on my mother' ; s side lived here, the Galls, Phillip--Phillip and Rose Gall. My--my father' ; s mother died about a year after I was born and his father was in Winchester, Kentucky. Prior to that he was on a farm somewhere outside of Winchester. FERNHEIMER: So your family goes back to Kentucky quite a ways. LEVY: Yeah. Yes. FERNHEIMER: Do you--who was--who was the first one to move here? Do you know? LEVY: Well, on my mother' ; s side he came around in the teens, fif-- fif-- ' ; 15, 1915, ' ; 16. FERNHEIMER: This was your mother' ; s father. LEVY: Father. Father. FERNHEIMER: Father' ; s father? LEVY: My mother' ; s father. FERNHEIMER: And his name was? LEVY: Phillip Gall. FERNHEIMER: Phillip Gall. LEVY: And my grandmother, I don' ; t know what--she grew up in Baltimore. And how they met I' ; m not too sure. (laughs) I probably was told but I' ; ve forgotten if-- FERNHEIMER: --but she came here with him. LEVY: She-- FERNHEIMER: --or she came to be with him. LEVY: I guess so, yes, right. Her last name, she was a Scher. FERNHEIMER: She was. LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Hm. LEVY: And, uh. FERNHEIMER: My family is Scher. LEVY: We may be related. Never can tell. FERNHEIMER: S-C-H-E-R? LEVY: S-C, uh, S-C-H-E-R. They were in Baltimore. FERNHEIMER: Mine were in DC. We' ; ll have to follow up on this. LEVY: Well, that' ; s close, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: What was her name? LEVY: Rose. FERNHEIMER: Rose Scher. And so she married Phillip and moved here roughly--do you know when they moved? No? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay[MC2]. Uh, and your father' ; s father was living in Winchester? LEVY: Yeah, Udell Levy. FERNHEIMER: What' ; s his name? LEVY: Udell. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? LEVY: U-D-E-L-L. FERNHEIMER: And anyone before that? LEVY: No. And their name was Versvovsky but they were Levites so they changed their name to Levy. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Can you spell Versvovsky for me? LEVY: I just--V-E-R. It' ; s a C in there. C-H-O-V maybe. I-S-K-Y. Something like that. FERNHEIMER: Uh, so they changed their name when they moved to Kentucky or when they came to the US? LEVY: Yeah. When they came to the US. FERNHEIMER: And where did they come from? LEVY: They came from--my--on my--on my father' ; s side, uh, they came from Russia. From the Ukraine. FERNHEIMER: Okay[MC3]. LEVY: And on my grandfather' ; s side he was somewhere near there. I can' ; t remember. Some other Russian--(laughs)--town. FERNHEIMER: And your mother' ; s side? LEVY: My m-- mother' ; s side, that' ; s what I' ; m talking about. FERNHEIMER: Oh okay. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So your mother' ; s side came from Russia. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And your father' ; s side. LEVY: Poland. FERNHEIMER: Poland. So you grew up here in Lexington. LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Can you describe your childhood to me? Where' ; d you go to school? Uh, what did you do? Where did you live? LEVY: Okay. We lived, uh, Ridgeway Road was the second house. First house was on a street called Shropshire Boulevard, which is somewhere off of, uh, Limestone. But I don' ; t know if it' ; s there anymore. And then they moved to Ridgeway when I was maybe a year old. And, uh, then moved down onto Fontaine. And then business got bad and we had to move in over my grandparents, the Galls, on the second floor of their duplex. FERNHEIMER: Also on Fontaine. LEVY: On Fontaine. FERNHEIMER: Right. If I recall correctly we just drove past them. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: One was 1332. LEVY: Yeah, 13--and 1320 or 1312, something like that. FERNHEIMER: That was where your grandparents lived. LEVY: Yeah. On my mother' ; s side. FERNHEIMER: On your mother' ; s side. LEVY: On my grand-- on my father' ; s side they were in Winchester. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And so on your--on your mother' ; s side it was the poultry. LEVY: No, my father' ; s. FERNHEIMER: That was your father' ; s side. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m sorry. LEVY: My father had a poultry and his brother also sold poul-- had another place that they--they were in--they were in--they were competitors. FERNHEIMER: Oh, really. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And so what was w-- the s-- one store was located in Winchester? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: No. LEVY: Both of them here. FERNHEIMER: Both here in Lexington. LEVY: Both of--both of them on Vine Street. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Both on Vine Street. LEVY: One block apart. FERNHEIMER: And so-- LEVY: --but one sold mostly the--the b-- uncle sold mostly wholesale and sold to people that, uh, restaurants and things like that. And my father sold both retail and wholesale and eggs. Fact, when I was five or six, I was taken down there to--they used to put a--have a can and a light inside of it with a hole in the can and you held the egg up to it to make sure it was still good. There wasn' ; t anything in it. And then if it was good you put it in the thing and they' ; re selling the eggs retail. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So your--your father' ; s store was called--remind me again the name. And your uncle' ; s store was--had a different name. LEVY: Uh, I don' ; t remember what his, uh, gr-- the uncle' ; s, uh, name of it. FERNHEIMER: What period of time was this roughly that they had the stores? LEVY: Uh, th-- thir-- late thirties and forties, during the war, part-- partly during the war. Mostly thirties. Then in the forties my father sold his business and went into the restaurant business on Main Street next to the Strand Theatre. Was called the Barbecue restaurant. It' ; s an interesting story if you want to hear it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I do. I don' ; t-- LEVY: --what-- FERNHEIMER: --where was the Strand Theatre? That' ; s a va-- LEVY: --Strand Theatre was across the street from where used to be the railroad station. It, uh, in the block between Lime and Rose. FERNHEIMER: Between Lime and Rose. Okay. So right at the cornerstone of campus now really. LEVY: Uh, well, downtown though on Main Street. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Okay. LEVY: Between Lime and Rose. FERNHEIMER: Oh okay. So that' ; s where the railroad station used to be. LEVY: Yes. Railroad station was right there on Main Street. FERNHEIMER: And so you were going to tell me an interesting story. LEVY: Uh, the trains from Fort Knox would come through the station th-- through here and many times the train would stop and the soldiers that were on there would have to get off and get something to eat. Well, the restaurant was right across the street from the train station. FERNHEIMER: This was the Barbecue restaurant. LEVY: Yes. So when he--some of them--about three block--two blocks up was a wholesale meat place. And my father had a deal with the man who owned it who I don' ; t remember his name. Uh, to sell him chickens. He was out--he was out of the poultry business but he' ; d made connections with this fellow and didn' ; t want to have to pay, uh, taxes on it. So I had a little red wagon that you pull and he' ; d have me go down there. Now this was--what was I? Seven, eight, nine years old, during the war, and I had a little red wagon. I' ; d roll it up Main Street to the place and they' ; d load it up with chickens and I' ; d cover it with a rug or blanket and roll it back down to the Barbecue restaurant. That was my job. D-- I' ; d do it about twice a day when he knew he had a train coming. He had a friend who was in the, uh, what' ; d you call it? Like sold radios and appliances and--and the beginning of TV sets but they were not, you know, little screens, little round ones. And he--he had a, uh, place that he had taken this, uh, instrument or machine out of where you used to sit in a booth and you' ; d put a nickel in and play a song in each booth. And it would come on as, you know, depending on who put the nickel in first. Each one had the name of about eight songs. FERNHEIMER: So this was like an early jukebox. LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. And then but we didn' ; t have a jukebox. Now you got to realize I didn' ; t even know what the hell I was doing. I was between age eight and ten I guess or eleven. And he had me--when he knew a train was coming, it would always be in the evening or after school. So I' ; d catch a bus, go downtown. And my job was he had a record player in the back of the restaurant. It w-- the restaurant was about this big. And he had a--somebody would put a nickel in there in the box. And it wouldn' ; t play because there wasn' ; t a real jukebox. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: They would come up to my mother at the cash register and say, " ; Hey, I put a nickel in and--and, uh, it didn' ; t play." ; And she said, " ; Well, what did you put the nickel in for?" ; And one of the songs was by the Andrews Sisters. So somebody would holler out, " ; Erle, Andrews Sisters." ; And I would take the record and put it on a phonograph. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: And it would play. So there were about six records. My job was every time somebody said, " ; I put--I put a nickel in, I didn' ; t get my song." ; I had to put that song on. And they got their money' ; s worth but it was a big task to--and people never did catch on. But, uh. FERNHEIMER: So you were an early DJ. LEVY: An early DJ, yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So this is all during the time when you were a schoolboy. Were-- LEVY: --right, I was between seven and--see, 1934, 1941 to ' ; 45. So I was, uh. FERNHEIMER: And where did you go to school during that time? LEVY: I went to Cassidy on--on Tates Creek or, uh, Cassidy Elementary. Morton Junior High right next door. And then Henry Clay. FERNHEIMER: And during this time can you tell me a little bit about your parents' ; relationship to Judaism or your family? If there were family rituals or, uh, talk to me a little bit about that. LEVY: Well, they were--(laughs)--kind of toward between being, uh, semi-Orthodox and they were--most of my mother' ; s friends were at the temple. So they put me in both those places. I went to Sunday school at the temple. And I went to Hebrew school at the synagogue, heder. And when we--some days we would go to temple for the first day of Rosh Hashanah, and that' ; s all they ever did. And then we' ; d go to shul for the second day, because they had two days. FERNHEIMER: Right. LEVY: Yom Kippur we always went to the synagogue. It was the one on Maxwell Street. FERNHEIMER: Right. And what was--what was heder like, uh, at the synagogue? Was-- LEVY: --it was-- FERNHEIMER: --the synagogue was Orthodox at that time? Or more Orthodox? LEVY: Uh, no, I' ; d say b-- closer to Conservative but yeah, they called themselves Orthodox. There were only two or three people in each class. (laughs) Sometimes only--the only one there. And you went, uh, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. After school. FERNHEIMER: And so this was after school. LEVY: Yeah. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. FERNHEIMER: And what did you learn in heder? LEVY: Hebrew. How to read Hebrew. FERNHEIMER: And anything else? LEVY: That' ; s all--well, I probably did but I forgot what else, you know, a little history, a little Jewish history and things like that, and then, uh, about what the prayers were w-- on the holidays. And, uh. FERNHEIMER: What was-- LEVY: --and of course you--you did that also to get your bar mitzvah. To study for the bar mitzvah later. FERNHEIMER: And so since you were--your family went to both the temple and the synagogue, where did you do your bar mitzvah? Or-- LEVY: --I ended up being confirmed at the temple and bar mitzvahed at the synagogue. FERNHEIMER: And did confirmation take place at age thirteen when a bar mitzvah would take place? Or was it later? LEVY: Can' ; t remember. I think it was later. Yeah, it was later. Yes. FERNHEIMER: Did they even do bar mitzvah, uh, or they only did confirmation at the temple? LEVY: No. No. The temple only did--yeah. The s-- at the shul is where the bar mitzvahs were. That was thirteen. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember any of your schoolmates or classmates from that time, who they were? LEVY: Jewish ones? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Yeah. Uh, Alan Bloomfield. Ivan Goldfarb. Sandy Bederman. Marylin Bederman. Uh, Jack Miller. Uh, shoot. Wish I practiced up on. Trying to think who else. Uh, wait a minute. I' ; ll think of her name. Her father was in the photograph business. Uh, Myra Michaels (??). Uh. FERNHEIMER: And these were all in your class or-- LEVY: --mm. No, they--no, they weren' ; t in my class but they were-- FERNHEIMER: --cl-- LEVY: --a year or two one way or the other. Should have practiced up on names there. FERNHEIMER: Oh, that' ; s okay. Uh, anything that comes to you after you can-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --let me know. That' ; s not a problem. Uh, so tell me about your--your parents. They had--they were in both the temple and the synagogue. That' ; s pretty--was it unusual or-- LEVY: --yeah. Well, my mother wanted me to go to temple Sunday school. And-- FERNHEIMER: --why was that important to her? LEVY: I guess because a lot of her friends' ; kids were there. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: I suppose. Uh, she never told me. My sister also went temple Sunday school but she didn' ; t get bar mitzvahed--bat mitzvahed. So she only, uh. FERNHEIMER: So she didn' ; t go to heder. LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Was it only boys in heder at the time? LEVY: Yes. All, uh, all boys. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And did your family go to--so you described they did services one day at-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --temple and one day at-- LEVY: --well, the High Holidays were both--both at the shul, at the synagogue. FERNHEIMER: Both at the shul. LEVY: Both days. FERNHEIMER: What about Fridays? Or Friday-- LEVY: --sometimes it was at temple and then Saturday morning at the synagogue. Friday night at the temple and Saturday morning at the synagogue. FERNHEIMER: And did they keep the restaurant open on the Sabbath? LEVY: I think they did. I' ; m not sure but I think so. FERNHEIMER: Uh, I' ; m going to ask a question about--did they have any--was there kosher meat or were they interested in that at-- LEVY: --no. Wasn' ; t kosher meat. He had a friend. Uh, it was, uh, what do you call it? Meat was not available to everybody. W-- there was a, uh. FERNHEIMER: Because of the war or-- LEVY: --yeah, because of the war. But my father had a friend that he knew from when he was in the poultry business that worked at a building that sold wholesale meat all over the state. And that guy would--that was the meat that I carried down the street some days. FERNHEIMER: In the wagon. LEVY: In the wagon. But not every day. Uh, I mean he--he--he brought it down sometimes. But that' ; s how he--because hard to get red meat during the war. FERNHEIMER: Right. LEVY: So and this w-- restaurant was based on red meat. Hamburgers and steaks. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: The Barbecue place. LEVY: Yeah. Barbecue. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Wow. LEVY: It wasn' ; t barbecued. It was just cooked in the back in the kitchen. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So they--they just used the name. LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: But it wasn' ; t the actual barbecue. Uh, can you tell me a little bit about Judaism and your family? What was the role of Jewish tradition in your childhood or what your parents taught you about Judaism? LEVY: I think my grandparents talked to me more than my parents did. Yeah, they--they, uh, they had us do all the holidays. And most of the meals for the holidays were at my grandmother' ; s, uh. FERNHEIMER: And she was in Lexington or in Winchester? LEVY: Yeah. No, here. FERNHEIMER: Here. LEVY: Uh, it was, uh, my mother' ; s mother. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: My--on my father' ; s side my grandmother died about a year after I was born. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And then a few years later he moved here with his daughter, Tanya Herman. She was married to a man named Nathan Herman. Tanya was the sister of my father. And they moved here. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember what year that was? LEVY: Uh. FERNHEIMER: Or what brought-- LEVY: --it was in the forties. I mean like I' ; m not sure. It was during the war. FERNHEIMER: What brought them to Lexington? LEVY: The business that he was in over there didn' ; t work out. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Huh. What was the business? LEVY: He was in some kind of shoe business. But he didn' ; t do it very long. FERNHEIMER: And did he try it here in Lexington as well or no? LEVY: He went to work for one of the place--for Brown' ; s Bootery, which was another Levy that owned a shoe business. FERNHEIMER: But not the same Levys. LEVY: No. Different--different Levys. Also a Hyman Levy. FERNHEIMER: Uh, I--from what I understand there were three Hyman Levys-- LEVY: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --in town at the time. LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: So one was your family. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Hyman Levy. One was Chicken Hyman, w-- LEVY: --Chicken Hyman was my father. FERNHEIMER: Chicken Hyman was your father. LEVY: Shoe Hyman was, uh, uh, the store called Brown' ; s Bootery on Main Street. FERNHEIMER: So that was Shoe Hyman. LEVY: That was Shoe Hyman. No, no, that was Fat Hyman. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: Shoe Hyman w-- worked for a store called--owned by the Meyerses. And he ran the sh-- he did the shoes in their store. He was Shoe Hyman. And Hyman at, uh, Brown' ; s Bootery was Fat Hyman. FERNHEIMER: And the Meyerses, were they also Jewish? LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: M-E-Y-E-R or M-E-- LEVY: --M-Y-E-R-S I think. FERNHEIMER: M-Y-E-R-S. Uh. LEVY: They were on Main Street. They had a high-class clothing store. High-priced I guess clothing store. In the block where Purcell' ; s used to be. FERNHEIMER: Where what used to be? LEVY: Uh, used to be a department store called Purcell' ; s. It was between Mill Street and Broadway where the Hilton is now. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What other shops do you remember that were Jewish-owned downtown at the time? LEVY: Oh my gosh. Let' ; s see. There was, uh, uh, Kaufman' ; s which was owned by the Strauses. FERNHEIMER: And what did they sell? LEVY: Uh, men' ; s clothes mainly. FERNHEIMER: And where was that? LEVY: It was on Main Street between Upper and sh-- and Limestone. Then there was Ben Snyder' ; s, which was at the corner of Main and Lime. Then there was Wolf Wile' ; s. FERNHEIMER: What did Ben Snyder' ; s sell? LEVY: It was a department store. They sold-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- LEVY: --women' ; s clothes, men' ; s clothes, uh, everything a small depart-- a small Macy' ; s. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: A mini Macy' ; s? LEVY: Very sm-- a mini Macy' ; s, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And who owned that? LEVY: That was, uh[MC4]. FERNHEIMER: Was that the Snyders or was that someone else? LEVY: No. It was--oh, I know it, I can' ; t remember. Str-- FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come back to you. LEVY: Then there was Wolf Wile' ; s. FERNHEIMER: W-E-I-L? LEVY: W-I-L-E-S. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And what was that? LEVY: That was, uh, also higher-price, uh, clothes, women' ; s and men' ; s clothes. FERNHEIMER: And was that owned by Wile? LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Owned by the Wiles. FERNHEIMER: And where was that? Was it the next-- LEVY: --it' ; s in, uh, uh, same block that the Hilton is in. (laughs) Between Mill Street and Short Street. Uh, Mill Street and Broadway. Then it moved. Wolf Wile' ; s moved up next to where the Union Station was. FERNHEIMER: Close to the restaurant your parents owned? LEVY: Yeah, but it was after. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: After the war. And, uh, let' ; s see. There was another clothing store. Well, the Wennekers had a shoe store. And then the--another clothing store was mainly women' ; s was Hymson' ; s, H-Y-M-S-O-N-S. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s Evelyn and Maurice? LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And where was--where was Wenneker' ; s and Hymson' ; s located? LEVY: Hymson' ; s was in the block between Lime and, uh, the viaduct, uh, Walnut. North side of Main Street. No. South. Yeah, north side of Main Street. FERNHEIMER: And Wenneker' ; s? LEVY: Wenneker' ; s was right next door to the Strand Theatre, which is about two bl-- two doors down from Wolf Wile' ; s and three doors away from the Barbecue restaurant. FERNHEIMER: So pretty close. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: You must know that one pretty well. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: You' ; d take your wagon past there. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Any other shops that you recall? That' ; s quite a bit. LEVY: Uh, there were more. FERNHEIMER: Did the Millers have a shop then? LEVY: Well, there was a Miller' ; s that had a jewelry, uh, repair place. FERNHEIMER: Is that the same as Jack Miller or a different Miller? LEVY: No, that' ; s different. His father I think was a lawyer, I. J. was a lawyer. FERNHEIMER: So the jewelry repair. LEVY: Yeah. There were more Jewish stores. I' ; m trying to think who else. If I' ; d been prepared, uh. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. We can come back to this. LEVY: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Uh, uh, uh. LEVY: There were a whole bunch of them. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: On Main. The Rosenbergs were on--well, depends. There were three Rosenberg f--, uh, three Rosenberg stores. They were brothers but they had three different stores. Or cousins. FERNHEIMER: What kind of stores were they? W-- is one tradit-- LEVY: Well, Joe Rosenberg was on Upper Street across the street from my grandfather' ; s pawnshop and they had a pawnshop and jewelry store. And, uh, it was on Upper between Water and Main. Between the railroad tracks and Main. And then let' ; s see. The--another Rosenberg was where the KU building--where the--it was at Limestone and Vine Street. FERNHEIMER: Where the utility building-- LEVY: Where the K-- k-- Kentucky Utilities was. Yes, where they tore that down. FERNHEIMER: And what was that? LEVY: It was a jewelry store. FERNHEIMER: Another jewelry store. LEVY: Right. Rosenb-- and then there was another Rosenberg on North Lime between Main and Short. So there were one, two, three Rosenbergs. But only one of them was in the pawn business and that' ; s the one on Upper Street. Joe Rosenberg' ; s parents. FERNHEIMER: And you mentioned your grandfather was also in the pawn business. LEVY: Yeah. That--when I was six or seven every day pawnshop had to turn in a list of people that pawned something and what it was. Well, my grandfather couldn' ; t write English at the time. And I was only six or seven. Uh, I know I was in elementary school. And he would have me come downtown and t-- and have me write up the police report which was picked up every day. A funny thing happened there. The guy that later became chief of police was the guy who came every day and picked up the report. Or every other day and picked up the report. Later he became the chief of police. FERNHEIMER: Who was that? LEVY: Think it was Hale. Uh, daggone. FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come to you. LEVY: So he always later on in life would always kid me when I' ; d see him somewhere. Says, " ; You know what his first job was? Writing a police report for me, and I couldn' ; t read it." ; (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: " ; I' ; d have to ask him what did he write here." ; Uh, uh, he t-- he did that several places where I was in a group where the--he was speaking or talking or something. FERNHEIMER: And what--what did your grandfather speak? What was his first language? LEVY: Yiddish. FERNHEIMER: Yiddish. LEVY: Yeah. And he spoke English sort of, yeah, but-- FERNHEIMER: --did he, uh, did they speak Yiddish in your family? LEVY: When they didn' ; t want us to know what they were saying. FERNHEIMER: Did you learn at all? LEVY: A little but not--not a lot. FERNHEIMER: A bissel? LEVY: Yeah, a bissel, right. FERNHEIMER: Uh, are there any other memories from your childhood that you' ; d like to share? What was school like? Uh, were there other Jewish children in your elementary school class? LEVY: Uh, Bloomfield was the only one I think. Everybody else was in another school. (laughs) There were others but elementarywise that' ; s all I' ; m going to remember. Junior high some of the girls. Trying to think who. Should have gotten prepared. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s all right. Do you--do you remember feeling--did you know that you were Jewish? Did you feel different? Did you-- LEVY: --oh yeah, my grandparents made sure that I felt different. Even though my mother had me go to temple Sunday school, my grandmother and grandfather said, " ; He' ; s also going to get bar mitzvahed." ; (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Why was that so important to them? LEVY: Guess because they were semi-Orthodox but not--not really Orthodox Orthodox w-- FERNHEIMER: --how did--sorry, go on. LEVY: They wanted to make sure I stayed Jewish. FERNHEIMER: That was really important to them. LEVY: Yes. Very. My grandmother had all the holidays. And she would invite friends for each of them. And, uh, in fact when I got married that instruction she gave Sara. It' ; s going to be your job to take care of everybody on the holidays. (laughs) And she took it very seriously. She took her--took her back in the bedroom and this is before we got married. We were engaged. Said, " ; I want you to understand now what you' ; re going to get into." ; FERNHEIMER: Wow. So this was your grandmother was very-- LEVY: --yeah, yeah. FERNHEIMER: So, uh, and the instructions she gave were to do holidays and-- LEVY: --do hol-- when I' ; m not--when I' ; m no longer here you invite the family for all the holidays. Cook food for them. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. How many other Jewish families were at the temple and at the synagogue at the time? LEVY: I' ; m not sure. I' ; d say--I' ; m not sure. Th-- there were about probably twenty, twenty-five kids in the Sunday school classes. FERNHEIMER: And that was from ages what to what? LEVY: First grade to sixth grade. Well, yeah. Sixth, how old are you? Twelve, thirteen, till you were thirteen, so yeah. Maybe till seventh grade. FERNHEIMER: So that was at the temple. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And then at the-- LEVY: --where they confirmed. FERNHEIMER: Right. And at synagogue was it only--it was only boys? They only did heder? Or did they do anything for girls? LEVY: Right. No girls. FERNHEIMER: No girls. LEVY: At that time. Later on they did. But no, it was all boys. FERNHEIMER: And so how many young boys were-- LEVY: Three or four in each. FERNHEIMER: So much smaller, uh. LEVY: Much. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And is there any particular memory that stands out to you from that time that you' ; d like to share about your childhood or holiday or-- LEVY: --well, I--what I remember mostly is having to go to both places for the holidays. I got, uh, uh, I would go, uh, Rosh Hashanah Eve to temple and then the next day to synagogue. And of course had to walk from Fontaine Road down to Maxwell Street and back. So I remember walking that long distance. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, it was probably pretty warm because-- LEVY: --uh, some days, yeah, some days it was raining. But we walked it every time. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And, uh, uh, what were services like? Were there a lot of families in attendance at that time? LEVY: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the--the synagogue would pretty much fill up. If you didn' ; t get there early you' ; d have to stand in the back. FERNHEIMER: And were there people standing? LEVY: Oh yeah, for--for the h-- for the High Holidays. Not--not for Shabbos but for High Holidays. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Is there, uh, now that we' ; ve talked a little bit about, uh, your childhood, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your experiences here at UK? Uh, I know-- LEVY: --came to UK in ' ; 51, 1951. FERNHEIMER: What, uh, what made you decide to come to UK? What were your--what was your major and what were your-- LEVY: --the cost made me go to UK, because it was not very much money then. I think if I' ; m not--I could be wrong but I think it was about $1,200 a year, and I was living in town, so I wasn' ; t living in the dorms. FERNHEIMER: So you stayed with your parents. LEVY: Yeah. I stayed home. So I' ; d say that' ; s why I went to UK. (laughs) The cost. FERNHEIMER: And what did you study here? LEVY: Commerce, business in, uh, in White Hall. FERNHEIMER: And what was--what was your typical day as a student like as a business student, commerce student? LEVY: Well, you had, uh, maybe--depended on the day. Three to five classes. Some days more--more hours than the other. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday were more hours than Tuesday and Thursday. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Almost the exact opposite of now. Most-- LEVY: --yeah, yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --people like to study Tuesday, Thursday. LEVY: Yeah. L-- the classes were, yeah, most of them, most of the classes were Monday, Wednesday, Friday. But there were some that were Tuesday and Thursday but not Saturday. Uh, what was the subject we were on there? FERNHEIMER: Just your typical day. LEVY: Oh. FERNHEIMER: Where did you eat? Did you eat on campus? LEVY: Eat. FERNHEIMER: Or at home? LEVY: Uh, no. I ate breakfast at home and then the student union for lunch and sometimes student union for dinner depending on if I had a late class. Well, it was two dinners. (laughs) A snack. A snack dinner at the student union and a full dinner at home by the time I got there. Uh, c-- because, uh, most of the time, uh, I caught a, uh, had to catch a--I lived at home. I didn' ; t live in the fraternity house. So I had to catch a bus back home. S-- sometimes the buses were not--I' ; d miss it or--and, uh, sometimes I' ; d walk all the way from campus to home. FERNHEIMER: Uh, and what did you do to relax while you were a student? LEVY: Hm. Went to the fraternity house. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: H-- how did you get involved with the fraternity? With--tell me about your experiences there. Which fraternity was it? LEVY: ZBT. That was the only Jewish fraternity here. And most of the other fraternities wouldn' ; t take any Jewish in--in them anyway. Uh, s-- we, uh, on days that I didn' ; t have a lot of classes that' ; s where I' ; d go. I' ; d go to the fraternity house on Tuesday and Thursday for example. I had more open hours. So it was on State Street and I' ; d go up there and loaf. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Loaf. LEVY: In between classes. Uh, well, I' ; d see some of the guys coming in. Sometimes had lunch there. The housemother would make lunch for us. FERNHEIMER: W-- what was a typical lunch at the fraternity house? LEVY: Just a sandwich or soup. Yeah, it was--it was about it. Maybe a piece of fruit. That was about it. FERNHEIMER: And who were--who were the other brothers? What--how did you get involved with Z-- ZBT? LEVY: Well, a year ahead of me was another Lexingtonian, Ivan Goldfarb. And he was already in the fraternity. And think if that--he was the only one from Lexington. But he--we lived only a half a block apart on--off of Fontaine. He lived on Sycamore and I lived on Fontaine. So I knew him growing up. And he forced me into the fraternity. (laughs) Towards the fraternity anyway. And, uh, Jack Miller came a year or two behind us. Two years behind us I guess. There was, uh, Sandy Bederman was a Lexington guy. So there were--there were several Lexington. Think who else. M-- most--so that' ; s all of the Lexington people that were in it. The others were from Louisville or New York. FERNHEIMER: And did you Lexingtonians know each other beforehand from the Jewish community? LEVY: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Jack was at the temple. I knew him there. Ivan was at the temple. I knew him there. I knew them through Sunday school. Alan Bloomfield. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Was also--they were all temple members though. They weren' ; t synagogue members. The boys I knew at--Sandy Bederman at the shul. And there were the Wenn--, uh, Jim--Jim Wenneker was also at temple. He was a year ahead of me. He was in the fraternity. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s Wenneker, Wenneker shoes? LEVY: Yes. Yeah. His father, Al Wenneker, and my father, Hyman Levy, were partners later on. They had a Howard Johnson Motor Lodge here. And the two of them owned it. That was my later job in college. (laughs) Working in the motel. The desk at Howard Johnson' ; s. And going to Howard Johnson conventions. And--and there was a guy out of Louisville who owned the--the restaurant part. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember who that was? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Another Jewish guy or-- LEVY: --no, no, he wasn' ; t Jewish. But he had--he had the franchise for the Howard Johnson restaurant. It was on Limestone, Nicholasville Road I guess you' ; d call it. It' ; s where, uh, Zandale Shopping Center-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. LEVY: My father and Wenneker built the first. That was Zandale Center. They built that. And the motel was next door where Walgreens is and a vacant lot now. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) And so you worked there through college? LEVY: Yeah. And part-time in high school. Yeah, sometimes cleaning rooms. Sometimes doing the laundry. And sometimes working the desk. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: --and then both--I don' ; t know if I should put this in. You can block something out if it' ; s not supposed to be here, right? There were people who--men who were meeting women at the rooms and they would sh-- pay me $5 to shut up. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Oh. So-- LEVY: --and never tell. FERNHEIMER: So were they-- LEVY: --so embarrassing job. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) I imagine so. M-- when you say they were meeting women, were they meeting women not their wives? Were they meeting women, uh. LEVY: Right, not--not their wives. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I imagine that you learn a lot working at the Howard Johnson. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Did you encounter folks from synagogue or temple ever? LEVY: Sometimes, yeah. Can' ; t tell you who though. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I' ; m not asking. But-- LEVY: --because they wanted a special rate. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Oh, really? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: A discount for the confidentiality? LEVY: Because only a few hours. FERNHEIMER: Oh. LEVY: Not going to stay all night. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I see. LEVY: I think you ought to blank that out. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Well, we can revisit that at the end of the interview if you like. Uh, can--I want to circle back to the, uh, fraternity though. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit, uh, about--so I heard about some of the brothers who were in the fraternity at the time. What--what did--what did you all do in the fraternity? What were some of the activities? Uh, were there any other student organizations that you were involved in? Tell me about social life as a college student here at UK. LEVY: Yes. Uh, I was in, uh, uh, what did they call it? If you had been in the boy scouts they had some kind of group that met maybe once or twice a month. FERNHEIMER: Was it Eagle Scouts? Or no? LEVY: No, you didn' ; t have to be an Eagle. Just if you were in the boy scouts. They would meet in the student union building. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: The--I don' ; t remember the name of it. And it may not even have been an official--(laughs)--thing. But we met there. Uh, Hillel. The--most of the time the Hillel. We' ; d meet in the student union but sometimes on Sundays we' ; d go to temple--to the temple, where we could get food. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So you--you met in the student union when for Hillel? Were there--do you recall that there were dances sponsored by Hillel? LEVY: We had dances but I' ; m not sure if it was Hillel or not. That' ; s when my wife chased me. FERNHEIMER: We' ; re going to get to that. LEVY: Uh, what else were the fraternity boys in? There were--there was a wide variety of, uh, courses that the guys at the fraternity were in. Some in engineering, some in business, some premed, uh, they didn' ; t call it premed, they were chemistry or whatever, they didn' ; t have a medical school or premed course here. But that' ; s where they were headed. Uh. FERNHEIMER: And so was there a lot of overlap between the, uh, students who were involved with the fraternity ZBT and--and Hillel? How many students were involved in Hillel? Do you recall? LEVY: Oh, I' ; d say twenty to twenty-five, counting the girls, yeah. Uh, really I' ; d say that' ; s about--sometimes there were only ten or twelve of us at meeting. FERNHEIMER: And what did you discuss at those meetings for Hillel? LEVY: Oh, the rabbi would make--temple rabbi would make a talk. And sometimes they would invite, uh, somebody from out of town, the--one of the Jewish organizations that they wanted us to join when we grow up--(laughs)--or when we graduate. You know, somebody would come from B' ; nai B' ; rith and, uh, different organizations would have a speaker. FERNHEIMER: And who was the rabbi at the time? Was it Rabbi--at the temple. LEVY: Uh. FERNHEIMER: It wasn' ; t Grafman, right? Or was it? LEVY: Grafman was here but, uh, I don' ; t think he--while I was in school I don' ; t think that' ; s--I don' ; t remember the name. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. LEVY: Picture him. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. What did he look like? LEVY: Uh, it went away. Shoot, I should remember. FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come back. LEVY: Could have practiced. FERNHEIMER: You' ; re doing great. Uh, so Hillel meetings. There was a talk by the rabbi. And a speaker from one of these Jewish organizations. LEVY: Yeah. And then--and then sometimes we would practice d-- do a little play. FERNHEIMER: Oh, really? LEVY: Yeah. Do a-- FERNHEIMER: --tell me about these plays. LEVY: Well, we just would meet with some of the girls that, you know, and they would--we' ; re going to do a thing of a musical or just not really professional, just, uh, somebody could play the piano or play and then we' ; d pret-- sing. (laughs) Or some of the girls would dance. FERNHEIMER: And who--was there an audience or was this just to-- LEVY: --the students. FERNHEIMER: The students? LEVY: Yeah. Hillel students. (laughs) Hillel kids. FERNHEIMER: But there were only twenty or thirty of the Hillel kids. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Was there like five or six performing? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And did you take turns or did you try out or-- LEVY: --yeah. Took turns. Jack Miller may remember more about that. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember anything about a Hillel debating club? Or debating society? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Harriett Rose mentioned something about a traveling Hillel debate society. LEVY: May have been before me. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Or may have been after. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, I know she was before but-- LEVY: --I don' ; t remember, yeah. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m very curious. LEVY: But while she was in school you mean? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Yeah. I don' ; t think they had it when I was there. FERNHEIMER: Do you recall--was debating big on campus at the time just in general or-- LEVY: --not that I remember. But I may not have been in that group. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So--so you had these meetings. And was there a s-- like a social component to Hillel? Obviously if you were-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --dancing and singing and kind of just hanging out. LEVY: Uh, once or twice a year they' ; d have some kind of dance. Uh, but it would be at temple, not at UK. UK-- FERNHEIMER: --w-- do you know why it was there? LEVY: Well, uh, we may have had some synagogue, but I don' ; t, uh, first off my head comes why we didn' ; t--I think we were more Reform Jews than, uh, what we called Orthodox, but we weren' ; t Orthodox at the shul. (laughs) But there were more Reform guys and girls at--at campus Jewish. FERNHEIMER: About how many Jewish students do you think were on campus at the time? LEVY: Fifty maybe. Maybe--maybe less. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: I' ; m not sure. FERNHEIMER: And were most of them in either the fraternity or I know there was a sorority, Phi Sigma Sigma? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, were there any who were--to your knowledge who you knew were Jewish but they weren' ; t part of Hillel or they weren' ; t part of the fraternity? LEVY: No. No, I think everybody took part in one or the other, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And what was fraternity life like? What did you guys do? What--you told me about Hillel and sort of the meetings there. What--what was--what was ZBT like? Tell me about the house. Tell me about your activities. LEVY: The house--the house was on State Street. There was, uh, three, seven, eight, ten, twelve, maybe thirteen, fourteen guys. No, there were three upstairs. So about seventeen and, uh, three or four stayed in the attic. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So seventeen plus four? Twenty-one? LEVY: Let' ; s see. There was a room on the left was two. The president, three. S-- three, and that' ; s six. Four in that one, ten. Two in this one, twelve. And two or three upstairs. So it was, uh, uh, fourteen or fifteen guys living in the house. FERNHEIMER: But you never lived in the house because you lived at home. LEVY: Yeah, I lived at home. I wouldn' ; t live there. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: No? How come? LEVY: It was just too crowded. I mean the rooms were little bitty rooms and it was hardly to get out of bed you almost hit the other bed, uh, you know, it was one shower and one bathroom for all of them, so they drew numbers of who goes first. Uh, the night before you grab your number and that' ; s what number when you get to do the shower. Which was in the basement. The shower was in the basement. The bathroom was upstairs. FERNHEIMER: But there weren' ; t stalls in the basement? LEVY: Just one. FERNHEIMER: Just one. LEVY: One stall. Yeah. One shower stall. FERNHEIMER: So one shower for about fourteen, fifteen guys? LEVY: Yeah. And they' ; d fight over who was first and it would run out of hot water. And, uh, of course they worked it out also by the guys who had an early class and the ones that had later classes. So the early class guys got to go first so they could, uh, later guys or some days if you didn' ; t have a class you didn' ; t get to take a shower. (laughs) Like if your classes mostly were Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, you showered then, but Tuesday and Thursday you didn' ; t get to, unless you did it late before you went to bed or something, you know. I mean I' ; m sure they took a shower, but not before class. May have done it in the evening, not as many were taking showers as they did in the morning. FERNHEIMER: What else? Was there a space for folks to congregate not in the itty-bitty rooms? Was there like a social space? LEVY: There was a living room and a dining room in the house. Uh, and they had a housemother who made them--cooked all the meals, with help from some of the guys each week would help her. So there was a living room, dining room. With a little room off to the side like a den where they studied. Was--house is still there. It' ; s on State Street. FERNHEIMER: Oh, it' ; s still there. LEVY: Yeah, it' ; s still there. FERNHEIMER: What number is it? LEVY: One thirteen I think. It' ; s about the--if they haven' ; t torn it down this week--well, I think UK or somebody bought the block. But--but it' ; s about the second or third house down on the right side of State Street if you' ; re coming from Nicholasville Road. It' ; s a yellow stucco house. Maybe third or fourth house down. Yeah, well, they may have torn down. So it' ; s a yellow stucco on the right side of State Street, 113 was the address. FERNHEIMER: And did they have social functions at the house as well like dances or parties? LEVY: Not at the house. Uh, those--sometimes parties. But it was too small. Most of the stuff was at student union or someplace else. FERNHEIMER: And what do you remember of the--the parties? Did they interact with other fraternities or-- LEVY: -mm-mm, no, didn' ; t interact. Well, there was a--the president would go to a meeting with the other fraternity presidents. FERNHEIMER: The interfraternity council? LEVY: Yeah, yeah, right, they would go to that. But, uh, there wasn' ; t a lot of interfraternity stuff. Uh, except if there was a--sometimes there was a competition. I' ; m trying to think what. Like softball games or something like that. They played each other. It was all--no official. It was just one of the guys would make a deal with one of the other guys in another fraternity, let' ; s play softball, you know, or let' ; s play basketball. That kind of thing. But n-- nothing, uh, official. Bowling. Did--there was a lot of bowling. FERNHEIMER: Where--where was the bowling alley? Was it in the union or-- LEVY: --no, it was, uh, well, it' ; s gone. But it was on the s-- how would I describe it? It was off Euclid across from where the Fine Arts Building is where Memorial Coliseum--(laughs)-- FERNHEIMER: --so there was a bowling alley in there? LEVY: Yeah, it was a bowling alley. No. Next door to it. FERNHEIMER: Next door. LEVY: Yeah. Right--there were some restaurants on the corner of Rose and--and--and Euclid. And then the bowling alley. FERNHEIMER: And how many guys--who--who was--who were some of your closest contacts I guess in the fraternity? Do you remember who you came in with in terms of pledge brothers or-- LEVY: --uh, see, I was the only one in my class from Lexington. From Louisville was Marty Solomon. And another fellow named Stuart Yussman. Jack Miller was behind us. Uh, Ivan Goldfarb. FERNHEIMER: He was your class? LEVY: He was a year ahead. FERNHEIMER: A year ahead. LEVY: Of me. Uh, the Lexingtonians, I think that was about--oh, Sandy Bederman. He was same year as Ivan, so two years ahead of me. FERNHEIMER: How many brothers were in the fraternity total at about that time? LEVY: I' ; d say sixteen or eighteen. That' ; s a guess. See what everybody else says. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Well, we can also look in the--in the Kentuckians and the yearbooks and pull out the number. LEVY: Yeah. Sixteen, eighteen, yeah, uh, think less than twenty. FERNHEIMER: And how--how did the fraternity impact your Jewish identity or the way you thought about yourself? LEVY: Oh, very much. Very much so. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about that? LEVY: In what way? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, tell me. LEVY: Well, just being with--when you' ; re in Lexington, I only had three Jewish friends. About four is all there were. So that was a big deal to have that many guys that, you know, could be friends. And then there--the sorority, the girls were from out of town. Except for one or two. Uh, so it was more of a Jewish life than you really had. Jewish life in a way that you' ; re doing things with Jewish people. (laughs) Is what I mean. Not, uh. FERNHEIMER: And did--was there an emphasis on holidays or anything like that in the fraternity? Or did they go--did--did the house go as a house to either temple or synagogue? LEVY: They didn' ; t go as a house. But all went one place or the other. Yeah. Most everybody did. Some didn' ; t. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And how many--so you said there was a handful of folks from Louisville and Lexington and the--where did the rest of the--the brothers come from? You mentioned New York. LEVY: New York. New York. Uh, let' ; s see. Pittsburgh or Philadelphia, I can' ; t remember. Pennsylvania. Then there was, uh, from, uh, Chicago. Trying to think of the names. If I had the names. Uh, m-- b-- n-- very few from the West. Most East. FERNHEIMER: So, uh. LEVY: And North. FERNHEIMER: And why did they end up coming up to UK? Do you-- LEVY: --I think the ones from the big cities came because it was cheaper. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Even paying--(laughs)--even paying to get them down here, you know, train or bus or whatever was a whole lot less money than going to a school in Chicago or Philadelphia or, uh, uh, that' ; s my assumption. Uh, nobody ever said I guess. You know, you' ; re not going to say, " ; Oh, I came here because it' ; s cheap." ; (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Right. LEVY: Why did DuBow say he came to Kentucky? FERNHEIMER: I' ; m trying to remember. I know, uh, a couple of folks talked about the quotas in the East and, uh, the quotas were-- LEVY: --yeah. Yeah. That too. Yeah. Was easier to get into UK. FERNHEIMER: Uh. Um-hm. LEVY: Yeah, yeah, that' ; s true. Gradewise and everything I guess. FERNHEIMER: I think DuBow had some family connections here in the hat business if I recall. Uh. LEVY: Well, his father was in the hat business and the Meyerses had a store where they sold hats. And well, there were several stores here that sold hats. So that may have been--they must have been friends of his father, whatever, and that may have got him here. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. It' ; s been a while. I have to relisten. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, so going back, you said, uh, it was really different to have this kind of large group of folks who were Jewish. LEVY: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, and so was--would you say that Jewish life on c-- how would you say Jewish life on campus compared to your Jewish life in Lexington where you grew up in the temple and the synagogue? LEVY: Jewishwise only because you had more Jewish friends. But I don' ; t think it was--religiouswise I don' ; t think it added anything, the fraternity. I don' ; t think that added any religious meaning. Because it was always a battle to get everybody to go to synagogue or temple with you. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So they were more interested in hanging out and-- LEVY: --yeah. Yeah. They did like going to Hillel. Hillel meetings. But of course that may have been because they got a meal. FERNHEIMER: So there was a meal in the student union or only when they were at the temple? LEVY: Temple. FERNHEIMER: And who provided the meal? The sisterhood or-- LEVY: I don' ; t know. (laughs) Somebody did. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: I don' ; t really--I don' ; t really know. FERNHEIMER: --some things don' ; t change, that' ; s how you get students to activities. LEVY: I don' ; t even remember if we had to pay for anything. Uh, I don' ; t remember. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: Probably had to pay something I would think. But-- FERNHEIMER: --so it sounds like Hillel is one of the things that took you off campus when you were-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --a student. Uh. LEVY: Took me--well, I lived off campus too. But I came to campus every day. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. What--what--did you have any experiences with, uh, anti-Semitism on campus? LEVY: Only the fraternities that wouldn' ; t let any Jews in. (laughs) But nothing, uh, you know, bad. I mean we knew it, it was acceptable, and didn' ; t want to get in there anyway. FERNHEIMER: And what about growing up in Lexington? Did you have--can you describe any experiences with, uh. LEVY: Anti-Semitic, I didn' ; t run into anything. Really didn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: Not in the restaurant or the--all the stores? LEVY: No. Really didn' ; t run into anything. FERNHEIMER: Why do you think that was? LEVY: I don' ; t know, now that you ask. It' ; s, uh, I guess there were places we stayed away from but I don' ; t remember where they were, but it was told to stay away from. (laughs) But I don' ; t remember even where they were. FERNHEIMER: Because of the fear that there would be-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --a negative experience? LEVY: Yeah, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, what was your impression of Jewish life in Lexington at that time when you were a college student or--or earlier? LEVY: In what way? When you say-- FERNHEIMER: --was it--that' ; s a good question back. Uh. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m trying not to lead you anywhere in particular. LEVY: No. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: But I guess was it a positive thing? Was it, uh, a strong thing? Did you like being part of--was it-- LEVY: --yes. Oh yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --big, small, uh. LEVY: No, I liked--I liked--that was the best thing about the fraternity is you got involved in a lot of Jewish stuff because a lot of the guys would do it. FERNHEIMER: So can you give me an example of the kinds of things you' ; d get involved in? LEVY: Well, Hillel was one, uh. FERNHEIMER: So you found out about Hillel from the fraternity? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: You didn' ; t know about it from temple? LEVY: No. No, I don' ; t think so. FERNHEIMER: And what was the benefit or the difference between the activities that Hillel put on and the activities that the fraternity put on? LEVY: Well, the fraternities wasn' ; t Jewish coordinated. It was either sports or--or games or, you know, that kind of thing. It wasn' ; t--wasn' ; t--wasn' ; t religious. FERNHEIMER: But Hillel did have more of a religious aspect? LEVY: Well, because everybody was Jewish and they usually--the speaker or whatever they had was something to do with Judaism. FERNHEIMER: Did Israel ever come up then? LEVY: Probably did, but I don' ; t remember it being very much. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Till after that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, what were the highlights of your time as a student at UK? LEVY: Meeting my wife. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Tell me about that. LEVY: I guess that was the main, uh, main highlight of my college life. Sara, I didn' ; t know this till we were married five or six years. She' ; s already told you the story? FERNHEIMER: I' ; ve heard some versions of the story but I want to hear your version. LEVY: She--she came to--she came to campus. Well, uh, Ivan Goldfarb was dating her sister and they lived in Williamson, West Virginia. FERNHEIMER: How did Ivan meet her sister Sonia? LEVY: Here at school. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And one time Ivan and Sonia invited me to go to Williamson to meet her sister, and I met her. And then a year later-- FERNHEIMER: --how old were you at the time? LEVY: So it would have been, uh, let' ; s see. Seventeen, eighteen, eighteen or nineteen. FERNHEIMER: And she was about-- LEVY: --two years younger, seventeen--sixteen, seventeen. FERNHEIMER: Sixteen or seventeen. LEVY: They had me go down to Williamson. And met her. And then a few years later she came to UK, she says to get me. Of course I didn' ; t know any of this until we were married six or seven years that she came--we were having an argument. She said, " ; You don' ; t know what the hell is going on around you." ; What do you mean? She says, " ; Well, how do you think that, uh, when we had dinners I was always at your table? How do you think when we played bridge I was always at your table? How do you think when you got out of class in the White Hall and you were going towards student union eat lunch I was always sitting on a bench at the armory? S-- and some days you would say hello and some days you just went right on? And, uh, how do you think when we played bridge always we had bridge in the--I would be at your table?" ; And, uh, I had an uncle who let me use his car for every hour I babysat his kids. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Which uncle was this? LEVY: Sidney Gall. H-- they had, uh, a pawnshop. And I would babysit his kids when he and his wife Zelda would go out. And every hour I babysat I got to use his car. FERNHEIMER: What kind of car was it? LEVY: Was a Nash Rambler. FERNHEIMER: What year? Any idea? LEVY: It would have been, uh, uh, fifties. Yeah, early fifties. And, uh, one day Sara said, " ; How do you think I was always in the backseat when you were dating?" ; It was a girl she called Freddy (??) the Body. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about Freddy the Body. LEVY: I don' ; t even remember her real name anymore. First name was Freddy. And I had a date with her, couple, few dates. Several dates. But-- FERNHEIMER: --she was Jewish or not Jewish? LEVY: No, not Jewish. Didn' ; t intend, uh, just had to have somebody to go. She needed and I needed, if you were going to a dance or going to something you had to have a date. And, uh, Sara said, " ; How do you think I was always in the backseat of the car when you were dating Freddy or Lisa (??) or whatever?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know." ; She says, " ; Well, I would--I would ask your fraternity brothers. ' ; Erle has got a car next weekend, and they' ; re going,' ; to--to a movie or going to Joyland Park or going to--I' ; d say, ' ; Why don' ; t you ask him if we can ride with him?' ; " ; So she' ; d be in the backseat. I didn' ; t know she planned all that. " ; How do you think," ; she said, " ; when--when they had dances at--at the student union?" ; She--I didn' ; t know this. Know any of this. She would get there early and change the place cards so that she and her date would be at the same table my--my date and I. They had little place cards and she' ; s move people. Uh, she' ; d get there early and move the cards so she' ; d be sitting at my table. FERNHEIMER: So you sat at a table when you were at these dances? LEVY: Yeah, yeah, they had, you know, well, sometimes you eat dinner or lunch, depending on what it was. But she' ; d change the place cards. I didn' ; t know it. FERNHEIMER: Was this in the ballroom at the student-- LEVY: --in the student union, yeah. Well, different rooms in the student union. And then she said, " ; How do you think that when you had your uncle' ; s car I was always in the backseat with whoever it was? Seeing what you were doing with the different girls that you were dating." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know." ; She said, " ; Well, uh, I would ask your fraternity brother, one of the fraternity brothers. ' ; Erle has got a car this weekend. Why don' ; t you ask him if we can go with him?' ; To the movie or to the drive-in, uh, uh, drive-in movies. To the drive-in movie or he' ; s got a car, why don' ; t, uh, for the dance. Why don' ; t--you don' ; t want to have to catch a cab." ; Uh, so she knew everything was going on with me. I didn' ; t know any of this[MC5] until after we were married. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s--(laughs)-- LEVY: --and she told me, " ; You don' ; t know what the hell is going on around. How do you think I was always in the backseat of the car? How do you think I was always at your table?" ; She would change the place cards, I' ; d be at a different table. FERNHEIMER: And you had no idea what was going on. LEVY: No, she was--change the c-- no. She told me all this. She changed the cards so that she and her date would be at the s-- my table. She went to the registrar and asked my, uh, schedule, so that she knew. She told them she was my sister and she wanted my schedule so that she' ; d know where I was going to be. FERNHEIMER: On campus. LEVY: On campus. And she would--she knew what--when I got out for lunch and if she could she--she, uh, would sit, I don' ; t know. Uh, uh, there' ; s a building there they used to call the armory next to the student union. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Between the new White Hall, was old White Hall, but there was a building there. There was a bench out there for years. I guess it' ; s gone now. But she' ; d sit there hoping that I would ask her to go to the student union and have lunch. And some days I did and some days I didn' ; t. And sh-- to get there she had to come from the dorm, from the Fine--from the Fine Arts Building on Rose Street and run clear across campus in the time between quarter of and 12:00. I' ; m just coming down White Hall and walking very short. She' ; d get there. And I remembered after she told me that she was always sweaty and out of breath. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: And that' ; s because she' ; d been running to get into that seat. I didn' ; t know any of this. Because she said I didn' ; t know what the hell was going on. Dances, she' ; d change the place cards so she' ; d be at--she and her date would be there. She-- FERNHEIMER: --so how long was it before you actually asked her out for legitimate reasons? LEVY: Probably a year. Yeah. I didn' ; t, uh, I told you about my uncle letting me use the car. And she--so-- FERNHEIMER: --so you--so she was riding along in the backseat and miraculously showing up at the table at the dances. LEVY: Never dawned on me. FERNHEIMER: It took a year. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Before you actually asked her out. LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: On the regular. LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: And do you remember that first date with her? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Do you have any-- LEVY: --not really, no. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember--what was your courtship like? Can you tell me about that? Once you actually were intentionally courting after[MC6]-- LEVY: --it was probably eight or nine months. Yeah, wasn' ; t very long before I said, " ; When I get out of here, let' ; s get married." ; (laughs) So-- FERNHEIMER: --do you remember how you proposed? LEVY: No. Just asked her to marry me, that' ; s the only thing, yeah. I didn' ; t get down on my knees or anything. FERNHEIMER: And then you got married sh-- right after you graduated? LEVY: Yes. Yeah, graduated in January and got married in January. End of January. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So this was nineteen fifty-- LEVY: --five. FERNHEIMER: Five. And you all--did you stay in town after graduation? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Been here ever since. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And what was your first job out of college? LEVY: First job out of college was working, uh, for my father in, uh, he had a rental property that I would help keep straight. And, uh, and I got a real estate license to try to sell houses. And, uh, I did a little bit of everything. I still worked at the pawnshop, uh. FERNHEIMER: This was your uncle' ; s pawnshop or your grandfather' ; s? Uh. LEVY: My grandfather--my grandfather' ; s. And uncle' ; s. Same--same place. FERNHEIMER: Same pawnshop? LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay, not like the Rosenbergs who had three different stores. LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: They had the one pawnshop. LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. And then--then, uh, got into building houses and the sh-- like I say the Zandale Shopping Center. And then they went--I worked at the motel when they went in--when he went into the hotel business--motel business. FERNHEIMER: And so this was after--you started in college. And did you continue to work there after college? After you' ; d gotten married? LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: At the Howard Johnson? LEVY: Yeah, there and just when, uh, when they--he would call me when somebody didn' ; t show up. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And, uh, I missed a question. Uh, I hope you' ; ll-- LEVY: --okay-- FERNHEIMER: --forgive me for going back. Uh, uh, do you have any advice that you would give to UK students today? LEVY: Mm. FERNHEIMER: Or UK Jewish students? LEVY: Try to get with them. Get with Hillel or whatever way you can keep your Jewish identity going to appreciate it and to meet other Jewish students. FERNHEIMER: Why is that so important? LEVY: Well, I just think Jewish life, marrying somebody Jewish, having kids that are Jewish is important. FERNHEIMER: So-- LEVY: --my grandmother is in my head telling me that. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. You can see her sitting there. Well, uh, you brought up family. And I want to talk a little bit now about how Jewishness has figured into your adult life. Uh, you know, so we know you married Sara. Sara is also Jewish. Uh, how did it figure into the way that you created the family you built together? Uh, uh, you told me about, you know, you went to synagogue and temple. LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Mostly because your grandparents-- LEVY: --um-hm-- FERNHEIMER: --emphasized that. Uh, how did you and Sara create a Jewish life? Or did you? LEVY: We did the same thing. We belonged to both--paid dues at both organizations. Uh, the kids went to temple Sunday school and some services we went to both. One one night and the other one the next day, the other place. Uh, because we wanted them to be Jewish. But so we--we were in b-- the kids were all involved in all the stuff at temple s-- groups, Sunday school. So more temple groups than shul groups. But we went to shul for the--for the holidays. For different holidays[MC7] but-- FERNHEIMER: --so it sounds like there was religious observance at the synagogue. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And--and social life at-- LEVY: --yeah. Social at temple, yeah. Well, but the--but sometimes we went to temple services. But most of the time it was shul services. With the kids. I' ; m talking about w-- k-- kids all went to temple Sunday school. FERNHEIMER: And tell me, you have--how many children do you have? LEVY: They--they--four. They all-- FERNHEIMER: And their names and ages or years they were born? LEVY: Laura. Laura was born in, uh, ' ; 52. Leslie was born in-- FERNHEIMER: So before you graduated? LEVY: Oh wait, no. I' ; m sorry, ' ; 56. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Yeah, Laura was born, married in ' ; 55. Laura was born in ' ; 56. Leslie was born in ' ; 58. Lisa[MC8][MC9] (??) was born in ' ; 60 and Phillip (??) was born in ' ; 61. Then we stopped. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I imagine you had your hands full. LEVY: It was hard. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: So they--they, uh, all went to temple Sunday school and t-- FERNHEIMER: --and they were confirmed or bar-- LEVY: --yeah, they were confirmed and two of them were bar mitzvahed. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: No bat mitzvahs. LEVY: Bat mitzvahed. No. Well, the--well, she had something. Leslie had--I guess it was--maybe the temple did a bar mitzvah, I don' ; t know. Just remember she did s-- some kind of-- FERNHEIMER: --bat mitzvah? LEVY: Yeah. The--the other two girls didn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: And she was the--the youngest of the daughters? LEVY: She was the--no, uh, second oldest--second oldest child. FERNHEIMER: Second oldest. LEVY: Right. She became Orthodox. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: This is the daughter who now lives in Israel? LEVY: Yes. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And, uh, was--would you s-- tell me about your social networks. Uh, you said you socialized a lot at the temple. Who were some of the families that you did the holidays with or that you hung out with? LEVY: Well, the holidays we did mostly at shul. FERNHEIMER: At the synagogue itself? LEVY: Well, at h-- I mean if we had something at home. But the temple was, uh, Bloomfield, Jack Miller, Ivan Goldfarb, uh, J-- Jimmy (??) Straus, Joe Wile, uh, did I say Wenneker? FERNHEIMER: Uh, no. LEVY: Yeah. Jim Wenneker. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Jack Miller. Uh. FERNHEIMER: So these are the people that you would spend Shabbos with or that you' ; d go, I don' ; t know-- LEVY: --no. FERNHEIMER: No. LEVY: No. I j-- I was just trying to think who it was that--Shabbos, you mean after, uh. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: Before sc-- while we were in school? Or after school? FERNHEIMER: After school. D-- did you have-- LEVY: --after school-- FERNHEIMER: --family meals? Did you invite other families or-- LEVY: --we did after the kids got a little older. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I imagine that that-- LEVY: --yeah, while they were little we didn' ; t, no. We had--she--she--she cooked for some people. Uh, I don' ; t remember who came over but the--she--some Shabbos evenings we had people. FERNHEIMER: Uh, would you say--when--how would you describe your involvement in the Jewish community? Did it move beyond the synagogue and the temple? Were there other organizations that you were involved with as an adult after college and after the fraternity? LEVY: Uh, yeah, but I don' ; t remember. Uh, B' ; nai B' ; rith for a w-- we had a B' ; nai B' ; rith for a while and then it kind of stopped and then now it' ; s--they' ; re back up again s-- FERNHEIMER: --and are you still involved today? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, gosh, I don' ; t remember. Sorry, I should have thought of-- FERNHEIMER: --that' ; s okay. Do you have a very, uh, can you describe a vivid memory of Jewish life or ritual from your adult life? LEVY: No. Ritual[MC10]. I' ; m not sure what you' ; re asking. FERNHEIMER: Uh, just a memory associated with Jewishness. It doesn' ; t have to be a ritual, uh, if there' ; s a strong one that stays-- LEVY: --well, I mean I enjoy going to High Holidays to synagogue. Uh, and some Shabboses. And, uh, of course since we were married Sara is always cooking for every holiday there is. She' ; s cooking for people. FERNHEIMER: She took your grandmother' ; s, uh, promise to heart. LEVY: Right. Sh-- right. She took her dishes. We still have all our kosher dishes for Passover. We use them every year when we have people for Passover. The dishes are in the cabinet. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. That' ; s pretty nice treasure to still have. LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Are they glass? LEVY: China. FERNHEIMER: China. LEVY: And there' ; s some glass too, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, what was the non-Jewish community' ; s reaction to your Jewishness? Did you-- LEVY: --didn' ; t really--wherever they didn' ; t like them I didn' ; t go. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So you knew to avoid it strategically. LEVY: Yeah, yeah. I knew who--who was and who wasn' ; t. And I had a lot of friends that were not Jewish in high school. In high school mainly. FERNHEIMER: In college also or was it mostly the fraternity? LEVY: In college it was mostly fraternity, yeah, mostly Jewish. FERNHEIMER: And after college? I imagine with four children there wasn' ; t a lot going on at all except kids, but-- LEVY: --no, right, right. Yeah. And mostly Jewish friends now, yeah. Yeah, uh, Jewish life. I mean our life after we were married and had kids was still mostly Jewish. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: --except for work. FERNHEIMER: And you started telling me a little bit about work. Can you tell me? Uh, I know now you have, uh, the shop. Uh, tell me the name of the shop and how you got into the business. LEVY: Well, first I was in the building business, building houses. Motel. And then building houses. Helping with the shopping center. Uh, then I had a--they had a vacant place in the Zandale Center and I--and another partner and I, we put in a coin laundry, which three times a week we had to go get machines fixed and take the change out of all the machines and, uh. FERNHEIMER: When was this? Wh-- when did you start the coin laundry? And with whom? LEVY: Uh, man named Bill Silliman who was also a partner in some house building. He was in the drywall business. FERNHEIMER: Jewish or not Jewish? LEVY: Not Jewish. FERNHEIMER: Not Jewish. LEVY: And, uh, we--we had that coin laundry together in the shopping center. And then I helped with the motel. And then I was building houses. Well, my father was building them, I was working for him. (laughs) Put it that way. Mostly, uh, veterans, uh, who w-- who, uh, had a G-- GI Bill VA-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- LEVY: --a hundred percent loan. Didn' ; t have to have anything down. Just some--pay some closing costs. And we did several sh--, uh, subdivisions around town. Uh, uh. FERNHEIMER: And how did you move from that into the lighting business? LEVY: Well, I was in the building business and, uh, we had a--a friend of mine, DeWitt Hisle, was an accountant. FERNHEIMER: DeWitt Hisle? LEVY: DeWitt Hisle. FERNHEIMER: Witt? LEVY: DeWitt. FERNHEIMER: DeWitt. LEVY: He' ; s still here. Uh, he was in the accounting business and he, uh, called us up one time and my partner Bill Silliman and w-- he was one of my partners in the building business, had several building companies that he was a partner. One of them we called Silliman and Levy. He called up one day and said, " ; A guy that owns the lighting store wants to sell it and he' ; ll give us five years to pay him. And you guys know everybody in the building business. So I think you all ought to see about buying it from him." ; So we bought Kentucky Lighting. FERNHEIMER: This was you and Silliman. LEVY: Yeah. We bought Kentucky Lighting. FERNHEIMER: And what year was that? LEVY: Nineteen, uh, ' ; 58 or ' ; 60, somewhere along in there. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Maybe ' ; 57 s-- after-- FERNHEIMER: --after one of your--which child? LEVY: I had--already had two. So it had to be ' ; 60 or ' ; 61 that we bought--bought it. And, uh, we knew all the builders, because he was in the drywall business and I was building houses. So we wanted to furnish them, uh, lighting--lighting--light fixtures. So then on the other hand I was building houses and then, uh, built some efficiency apartments on Zandale and Lowry Lane. And then later on we built a big apartment project on Tates Creek Road we called the Greenhouse. But we sold it since then. Sara managed it. We sold it to a guy out of Philadelphia. It' ; s still there. Uh, what was the question? FERNHEIMER: Uh, just how you got into the lighting business. LEVY: Well, that' ; s how I got into it. And then in, uh, let' ; s see, about-- FERNHEIMER: --so you' ; ve owned the store since the sixties or about-- LEVY: --s--, uh, seventies, uh, seventies. FERNHEIMER: The seventies? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah, seventies, uh, yeah. And, uh, but we had a manager there until he died. And then, uh, about that time Silliman and I split up. DeWitt Hisle, DeWitt, Bill, and I. And they wanted out. So I had to buy them out over a period of years. And then after I sold the apartments I went over to Kentucky Lighting full-time. FERNHEIMER: And that was roughly when? In the-- LEVY: --uh, let' ; s see. Probably about 2000 I think or 1999 or something. Maybe--I don' ; t know. Uh, early-- FERNHEIMER: --so from the sixties or the seventies to about 2000-- LEVY: --yeah--yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --you were in business with Silliman and DeWitt? LEVY: Well, I was with--and-- FERNHEIMER: --and doing the housing-- LEVY: --my own d-- y-- doing--I built some houses in my own name. I built some with Silliman. Uh, and DeWitt was with Kentucky Lighting. So we had to have--you had to have partners because you couldn' ; t borrow--you had to borrow money to build the houses. So I always had to have somebody else cosign with me[MC11]. FERNHEIMER: Right. LEVY: To borrow the money. FERNHEIMER: Did you encounter any anti-Semitism in your business dealings or-- LEVY: --not that I' ; m aware of. I mean there were some--I was told there were some subcontractors who didn' ; t want to work for me because I was Jewish. But I didn' ; t care because they didn' ; t want to work for me, so I--(laughs)--didn' ; t bother any, you know. FERNHEIMER: And at the lighting store? LEVY: No, I haven' ; t run into any that I know of. FERNHEIMER: Uh, how have, uh[MC12], sorry I' ; m going back and forth between-- LEVY: --it' ; s all right. Um-hm-- FERNHEIMER: --your professional life and between Jewish life. How would you say that things have changed in the Jewish community--and this is going to be a hard question for you I think. LEVY: Mm. FERNHEIMER: During the time that you' ; ve been here. Because you' ; ve been here your whole life. LEVY: I think the Jewish community is much more outspoken than it was when I was younger. FERNHEIMER: About--are there particular issues that you think are-- LEVY: --well, it' ; s usually Israel. (laughs) That' ; s probably the biggest one. FERNHEIMER: And outspoken in what ways about Israel? Is Israel--tell me about the Jewish community' ; s relationship to Israel here in Lexington. LEVY: Well, there--there are some that are very pro-Israel and there are some that are not. Uh, some that--for example when they were raising, you know, different organizations were raising money, some wouldn' ; t give you a dime. They might give to the temple or the synagogue, but they wouldn' ; t give anything for any other Jewish appeals for--(laughs)--for Israel, Israel bonds. FERNHEIMER: Through Federation. LEVY: Well, there wasn' ; t a Federation till later on. I don' ; t remember what year Federation came. But prior to that different people, men and women, took on the responsibility of selling Israel bonds, uh. FERNHEIMER: When did that start would you say? Was it in the sixties? After-- LEVY: --no, I' ; d say it was in the fifties it started. Yeah, I' ; d say. Yes. FERNHEIMER: S-- so shortly after the found-- LEVY: --yeah, after they took over, yeah, Israel. Uh, yeah. It was somebody out of Cincinnati would come down and we' ; d have to hold a dinner, lunch, or something, let them talk, and then try to sell them $100 bonds or $500 bonds or a few guys $1,000 bonds. FERNHEIMER: So would you say Israel is one of the biggest kind of measuring sticks of how the community has changed? LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So from sel-- selling bonds in the 1950s to-- LEVY: --well, I mean we didn' ; t have a, uh, the what do you call it, the-- FERNHEIMER: --the Federation. LEVY: --Federation till what, fifteen, twenty years ago. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Something like that. And I think that was probably a combination of the Anti-Defamation--of Israel and fighting people that didn' ; t like Jews. (laughs) Or not fighting them but giving money to organizations that would help that. And Israel. I' ; d say Israel was one of the biggest things. FERNHEIMER: And any other ways that the Jewish community has changed in the time since you were growing up here s-- LEVY: --well, there was no Federation. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Growing up. That' ; s probably the biggest thing. And probably-- FERNHEIMER: --and how has-- LEVY: --I don' ; t know if--if attendance is up or down from when--when I was younger. It seems like shul was--when it was on Maxwell Street was always crowded. You know, for every--every event. Uh, the temple was too. In fact they--they' ; ve enlarged since it was original. Uh, hm. FERNHEIMER: So attendance, attitudes towards Israel. How would you describe the attitudes towards Israel now? Are they different in the synagogue and the temple? Can you generalize in that way or-- LEVY: --no, I really can' ; t. I mean it' ; s very strong at the synagogue. I can' ; t say whether it is or isn' ; t at the temple because the last ten or fifteen years I haven' ; t really been to anything at temple other than a B' ; nai B' ; rith meeting or some rabbi speaking or some speaker coming in and speaking. But I haven' ; t been to--probably haven' ; t been to a temple service since the kids were confirmed. (laughs) FERNHEIMER[MC13]: So now that the children have been grown up you--you spend more time at the synagogue would you say? LEVY: Yes. Yes. Uh, we only--we only belong to the synagogue. We don' ; t belong to both anymore. FERNHEIMER: Mm. How come? Why is that? LEVY: Because we wouldn' ; t be going there. We' ; re going to the synagogue. Uh, you know, events and stuff. Holidays and probably now have--we do have more friends that are synagogue. We still have some that are temple members. But m-- most of them are synagogue members. FERNHEIMER: Would you say, uh, is there still--I' ; ve heard tell of a kind of divide socially between the synagogue and the temple. Would you say it' ; s as strong now as it once was? Or did you notice this kind of divide? LEVY: Well, we knew it earlier. It was very obvious. If it is now I' ; m not--I' ; m not really aware of it. FERNHEIMER: So that' ; s another thing maybe that' ; s changed. LEVY: I mean when--when our kids were in Sunday school and going to Hebrew school too, the temple people would say, " ; What are you, crazy or something? What are you putting them through all that? You know, why are you?" ; But-- FERNHEIMER: --and why did you? Why did you maintain those two memberships? Was it-- LEVY: --I think my grandmother and grandfather. (laughs) And Sara wanted to too. If she hadn' ; t wanted to, they wouldn' ; t have had to. And the kids, my mother' ; s mother was very--great-grandmother to them. Or grandmother rather. To them. Or great-grandmother. And she loved having them on Shabbos and she would have, you know, have them for all the holidays. And that affected them I think. Two of them became Orthodox. (laughs) And I think it' ; s due to my grandparents. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: I mean the grandparents influenced having Sara and I have them do that. FERNHEIMER: That brings me to another question. Uh, how would you say your Jewishness is different from that of your parents? LEVY: Uh, my parents didn' ; t go to services as often as we do. Uh, my parents didn' ; t celebrate the hol-- the--the--the meal, uh, in other words, uh, instead of my mother having people for dinner, my grandmother did. So that kind of affected it too I guess, uh. FERNHEIMER: So it skipped your mom' ; s generation, went from-- LEVY: --yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --your grandmother to Sara. LEVY: And--and a lot of the kids who had grandparents here--that had grandparents at the synagogue, the same thing with them. They--their--their parents weren' ; t as, uh, interested in entertaining other people, having them for dinner or lunch or whatever after services or Shabbos dinner or the--the--the shul people did it way more than the temple people. FERNHEIMER: And how--has that changed over the years? Or how has it changed over the years? LEVY: I don' ; t know. I know we still do it but I, you know, we used--we used to have Shabbos--well, still do. A lot of Shabbos dinners. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Have you st-- LEVY: --and Sara always has Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and, uh, most of the holidays. FERNHEIMER: Passover. LEVY: Passover. Yeah. In fact my grandmother got s-- made her swear that she would. Gave us all her Passover dishes and pots and pans and we still use them. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s pretty amazing. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Now you started to tell me a little bit about your children. Uh, so this question might sound a little repetitive but-- LEVY: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: How does your relationship to Jewish identity and practice compare to theirs? You mentioned the two who became Orthodox. LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: Uh, what about the other two? LEVY: Well, they, uh, the one in Saint Louis, Lisa, they go to services. They don' ; t go to Friday service. They go to--to, uh, High Holidays. Different holiday services. And their kids were all confirmed. And one was bar mitzvahed. FERNHEIMER: So they belong to a Reform congregation? LEVY: Yeah, Reform. And, uh, Laura, uh, she also, they--she belonged to a Reform congregation. But she took part in a lot of the stuff at the temple. FERNHEIMER: And how would you say h-- where you--how has where you grew up and lived affected your relationship with Judaism? Living here in Lexington. LEVY: It was hard. Yeah, because there wasn' ; t many--didn' ; t have many friends that were Jewish. Uh. FERNHEIMER: And yet you still managed to marry a Jewish woman. LEVY: Yeah, that was-- FERNHEIMER: Raise four Jewish kids. LEVY: Right. Right. But it was, uh, I guess again my grandmother and grandfather pushed that into me. FERNHEIMER: So very powerful influence of your grandmother and grandfather. LEVY: Yes. Yes. Very much so. And, uh, when, uh, I was younger and during the Second World War I had to help my grandfather, which I already told you. But every night at 5:30 or 6:00 they would have a minyan around the corner and have to--I' ; d have--I' ; d have to go with him to the minyan every--four days a week. FERNHEIMER: Where was the minyan? LEVY: On--see, how I would describe it now. It was, uh, in--in, uh, a store owned by a man named Abie Grossman. And it was on--well, they' ; ve got a hole in the ground now. But Joe Rosenberg' ; s family was on the side of Upper Street where there' ; s a hole now. Across the street was where my grandfather' ; s store, Phillip Gall' ; s. And around the corner was a man named Abie Grossman who had a secondhand clothing store. And that' ; s where they met for minyans every night. FERNHEIMER: So they didn' ; t go to the synagogue, they just did it in the store. LEVY: No. Right. Sometimes even the rabbi would come down the hill and come to the--to there. But all the Jewish guys would--because there were a lot of Jewish stores. But some of them were Reform. But some were syn--, uh, synagogue. And they would meet there every--every--four days a week. Monday through Thursday. FERNHEIMER: And they had a minyan all four days? LEVY: Yeah. Yes. Yes. FERNHEIMER: Mostly from the shopkeepers. LEVY: Most of them, yeah. Sh-- all the different shopkeepers closed up at 5:30 and went to minyan. (laughs) The--the--the Orthodox ones. There wasn' ; t any Reform ones. FERNHEIMER: Did they close on Saturday as well, d-- LEVY: --no. They weren' ; t closed on Saturday. Saturday was the biggest business day. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And what about the Jewish holidays? Like Rosh Hashanah or-- LEVY: --Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur they closed. Even the Ref-- even the temple people. There was--Main Street there was nothing open. I mean there were so many Jewish stores downtown that, uh, the other stores were happy when they were closed, but they just--they were--they were, uh, two days of Rosh Hashanah and one day Yom Kippur. Now some of the temple people were open on the second day of Rosh Hashanah. But some of the shul ones didn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: And so did that impact their relationship with other businesses downtown? The fact that they closed or opened? You said the other stores were happy. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Because I guess they had more opportunity then. LEVY: Yeah, right, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, w-- LEVY: --there were a bunch of Jewish-owned stores downtown. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, yeah, I' ; m glad that you listed so many of them for me. Uh, any more come to mind? LEVY: I' ; ll think about them. I' ; ll get you--finish the list. FERNHEIMER: Sounds good. LEVY: Did I get Lowenthal' ; s on there? FERNHEIMER: I don' ; t think so. Where was Lowenthal' ; s? LEVY: It was a fur store. Sold furs. It was on Main Street. FERNHEIMER: And what did they sell? LEVY: Furs. FERNHEIMER: Furs. Oh. I h-- I heard you say the first store. LEVY: Yeah, fur. FERNHEIMER: They u-- they sold furs. LEVY: Fur. Furs. Yeah. Fur. M-- mostly. I mean they had other stuff too I guess but mostly that' ; s what people went there for. FERNHEIMER: And were they owned by the Lowenthals or by someone else? LEVY: Um-hm. Yeah, Lowenthals. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: --I could make you a list. I may have left somebody off. Uh, Jewish-owned stores. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s w-- I might have you draw one for me when, uh. LEVY: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Th-- that w-- LEVY: --where they were on Main Street you mean? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Yeah, I can--I can pretty much come up with them. FERNHEIMER: That would be great. Looking back is there anything you would change about your relationship with Judaism or your Jewish identity or anything else? LEVY: No, I don' ; t think so. I' ; ve been happy with it. Two of my kids must have been. They went and stayed Orthodox. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Uh, is there anything else that I haven' ; t asked about that you would like to share? And then I have one more question that I remembered I should have asked earlier. LEVY: Give me the one more question. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: I want one more question. FERNHEIMER: How did your grandparents make it from Poland and Russia to Kentucky? How did they end up here? I should have asked this earlier. LEVY: My--my grandfather--let me think. My grandmother was from Baltimore. And somewhere in his life he was in Baltimore and met her. That' ; s how they got married. FERNHEIMER: But how did he get from--well, he--he was the first generation to come from-- LEVY: --he--he was--yeah. In my family, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And so do you know how he ended up here? LEVY: Not really. I think he was peddling and decided he liked-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- LEVY: --being up in the mountains and think coming out of Cincinnati he came down here. I guess just--don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: So peddling. And what about the other side of the family? LEVY: My father' ; s side. He--my grandf-- my father' ; s father first had a farm outside of Winchester and raised sheep and cattle. Then he opened up a clothing store in Winchester, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: And how did he land in Winchester? Do you know? LEVY: I' ; m not sure. He married--my father' ; s sister. No, that' ; s my grandfather I' ; m talking about. His daughter, uh, daughter married a guy named Nathan Herman who also lived in Winchester. So they-- FERNHEIMER: --another Jewish guy. LEVY: Yeah. And that' ; s--my grandfather on my father' ; s side lived with them for a while. And then they moved over here to Lexington. Uh. FERNHEIMER: But not sure how either one ended up here in Kentucky. LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Peddling. That' ; s-- LEVY: --yeah, that' ; s--yeah, that' ; s mostly what I know. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, yeah, that was the question I should have asked earlier. Uh, but is there anything else that you want to share, Erle? And I--I' ; ll preface this by saying if the names or any of that comes back to you afterwards we' ; ll make sure to add that in somehow. LEVY: Names of-- FERNHEIMER: --stores or, uh, things that are-- LEVY: --I got to write them down. I' ; ll have to write the stores down. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s fine. LEVY: There were a bunch. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: I mean on Rosh Hashanah Main Street was-- FERNHEIMER: --empty. LEVY: Uh, you know, every time I think about it I' ; m thinking about the women all wore heels. Y-- on Main Street when you went down there on a Saturday the women were all dressed up in dresses and high-heeled shoes. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So it was a--it was an event to go shopping downtown. LEVY: I guess. I guess. Because, uh, I can remember very well that I was always amazed at these women in their high heels on a--on a daytime, you know. FERNHEIMER: So--so was it a problem when the shoe stores closed and they couldn' ; t get them fixed? LEVY: (laughs) I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: Uh, well, if there' ; s nothing else that you' ; d like to add at this time, I want to thank you for taking time out of your afternoon. LEVY: Okay. Well, I hope I' ; ve been helpful. FERNHEIMER: This has been tremendously helpful. LEVY: Okay, good, good. FERNHEIMER: Uh, uh, w-- wonderful to hear about all the different stores downtown. Uh, serious that we' ; ll h-- we' ; ll have you draw it out. LEVY: It was. Yeah, I' ; ll try to, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And get that into the digital record. LEVY: Okay. I' ; ll try to. I' ; ll get some help from some people. FERNHEIMER: Uh, because that--yeah. Uh, plan to recruit Mike Ades and a couple others to help. LEVY: Mike will remember. He' ; ll remember a lot of places too. FERNHEIMER: And I think Janice Crane will know some. LEVY: Yeah. Mike' ; s father had--grandfather had a, uh, wholesale clothing, uh, wholesale-- FERNHEIMER: So the A-- was it called Ades? LEVY: Ades. Ades. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So that' ; s another one w-- LEVY: The building--the building, uh, it' ; s a restaurant in it, Jewish fellow owns downtown on Main Street, uh, oh gosh, uh. FERNHEIMER: Right now? LEVY: Yes. I' ; m trying to think of his name. He' ; s in-- FERNHEIMER: Oh, Natasha' ; s. No. LEVY: No. Natasha' ; s. It' ; s a big building. It' ; s on Main Street. Golly. FERNHEIMER: The tall one? The-- LEVY: --well, it--no, it' ; s about three, four stories. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Applebee' ; s is in it. FERNHEIMER: Applebee' ; s downtown. LEVY: Applebee. The company that runs Applebee' ; s. FERNHEIMER: Oh. Oh. Oh. LEVY: Is in it. It' ; s, uh, right near Kentucky Theatre across the street from the Kentucky Theatre. Up a little bit east. A redbrick building. It was wholesale. Had all kinds of wholesale stuff. That was Mike' ; s father' ; s place. FERNHEIMER: And it' ; s not off Esplanade. LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: It' ; s on past Esplanade. It was a restaurant and Jewish fellow owns it. I can' ; t--me and my memory. FERNHEIMER: Portofino? LEVY: Yes. Yeah, that building was Mike Ades' ; s grandfather' ; s building. And father. But grandfather. FERNHEIMER: Huh. LEVY: And he had--he did wholesale everything. All kinds of stuff from clothing to things, you know, tissue, everything. FERNHEIMER: And was it discount or was it-- LEVY: --no, it was wholesale. FERNHEIMER: It was wholesale. LEVY: Yeah, sold it to other stores. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Were there any discount stores downtown? LEVY: No, not really. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: I don' ; t think so. They may have said they were but they weren' ; t. FERNHEIMER: No. Okay. LEVY: (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you so much, Erle. I really appreciate it. LEVY: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: Okay, hit off? FERNHEIMER: I think, uh, we' ; ll get it off in a second. M: You' ; re good to go whenever. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay, thank you. Thank you so much. LEVY: Thank you. FERNHEIMER: This was great. LEVY: I hope. FERNHEIMER: It was. LEVY: I added something. FERNHEIMER: You did. Where you-- END OF AUDIO FILE[MC14] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections and Digital Programs, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh319_jk006_levy_ohm.xml 2015oh319_jk006_levy_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Erle Levy, August 19, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Erle Levy discusses family lineage in Lexington, Kentucky and Europe. He discusses his childhood school life in Lexington, and his childhood life in relation to Judaism and family traditions. He talks about the Jewish businesses that existed in Lexington in the mid-twentieth century.
Levy discusses his time at the University of Kentucky and his experiences in the Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) fraternity. He talks about meeting his (future) wife during college. He discusses his life after UK, his marriage, and his life as a businessman. Levy discusses his perspective on how the Jewish community has changed in Lexington, and of how his own Jewishness has changed. He talks about the social divide between Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Temple Adath Israel in Lexington.
Identifier
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2015oh319_jk006
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jews--Identity.
Worship (Judaism)
Jewish children
Religion
Jewish businesspeople
College students--Social conditions
College students--Religious life
Greek letter societies.
Jewish families.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
Format
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video
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https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/f0d2a7931301748b440532f991083aa7.jpeg
757cd05135d6c18ee5aaf409511b80ce
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marty Solomon
Interview Keyword
Computer science.
Computers.
Universities and colleges--Faculty.
Jewish businesspeople
Anti-Semitism
Small business--Ownership
Antisemitism
Discrimination.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh317_jk005 Interview with Marty Solomon, August 17, 2015 2015oh317_jk005 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Religion Worship (Judaism) African Americans--Social conditions. United States--Race relations. University of Kentucky United States. Army Air Forces United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps Greek letter societies. College students--Social conditions Bourbon whiskey Whiskey industry Computer science. Computers. Universities and colleges--Faculty. Jewish businesspeople Anti-Semitism Small business--Ownership Antisemitism Discrimination. Marty Solomon Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|31(5)|57(12)|72(7)|82(15)|112(8)|134(15)|155(5)|171(11)|185(17)|212(9)|232(10)|276(8)|299(6)|319(11)|348(6)|374(11)|386(15)|424(10)|442(4)|456(3)|464(5)|485(4)|499(5)|513(3)|527(8)|543(11)|558(8)|574(15)|594(12)|608(12)|627(11)|646(9)|666(4)|679(15)|694(2)|707(12)|725(1)|739(9)|758(4)|775(3)|790(15)|800(4)|823(2)|875(3)|894(7)|913(11)|931(15)|949(5)|976(6)|989(12)|1000(11)|1013(2)|1023(2)|1035(7)|1052(5)|1079(10)|1091(11)|1105(12)|1119(5)|1143(11)|1157(10)|1174(9)|1200(2)|1214(8)|1231(16)|1263(4)|1273(15)|1284(8)|1295(9)|1311(12)|1324(9)|1333(13)|1346(16)|1358(7)|1375(10)|1386(1)|1398(7)|1410(9)|1428(4)|1438(7)|1450(3)|1461(11)|1472(1)|1489(2)|1498(6)|1514(3)|1525(2)|1535(11)|1552(9)|1562(1)|1582(6)|1592(13)|1603(10)|1622(12)|1640(10)|1660(3)|1676(2)|1687(5)|1701(5)|1730(12)|1755(12)|1792(13)|1811(13)|1835(3)|1850(14)|1874(4)|1891(9)|1927(5)|1938(3)|1956(5)|1966(3)|1976(18)|2000(4)|2014(2)|2034(8)|2046(14)|2063(12)|2086(2) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253336443" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family background, Prohibition, and the bourbon industry Um, so, to get us started today, I'm going to say, uh, today is August 17th-- Marty Solomon speaks about his early life growing up on the south side of Chicago, and how he and his family came to live in the state of Kentucky. His parents worked in the bourbon industry and he grew up working in a distillery where they produced Old Blair Bourbon. He talks about how rural women would work on the bottling line in the distillery. Beatrice Newfield Solomon ; Bottling plants ; Bourbon industry ; Chicago (Ill.) ; David Karp ; Julie (Solomon) Karp ; Kentucky ; King Lear ; Loretto (Ky.) ; Martin Berthold Solomon ; Martin Solomon Sr. ; Melvin Kessler ; Old Blair ; Robert Kessler ; Seagrams ; The Great Depression ; World War 2 ; World War II ; WW2 ; WWII Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Prohibition. ; Whiskey industry ; Women in the whiskey industry 37.6353403, -85.4007952 17 Loretto, Kentucky 555 High school Jewish fraternities in Louisville, Kentucky But, uh, the greatest th--one of the great things about my childhood was, uh, there were two Jewish fraternities in Louisville. Solomon describes his later youth in Louisville and his membership with Pi Tau Pi, a chapter of AZA in the 1940s. The Jewish high school fraternities would compete in different events. Solomon thinks that his membership in this fraternity was one of the instrumental aspects of his Jewish identity. Aleph Zadik Aleph (AZA) ; Bernie Solomon ; Bowman Hall (University of Kentucky) ; Carl Rankin ; Connie Goldberg ; Earl Levy ; Gil Levich ; Henry Abraham ; Highland Junior High School ; Jack Steinberg ; Jimmy Winniker ; Louisville Male High School ; Michael Solomon ; Pi Tau Pi ; Tom Reynolds ; University of Kentucky ; Youth Men's Hebrew Association (YMHA) ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Greek letter societies. ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.2254832, -85.65046129999996 17 Location of Jewish Community Center in Louisville, Kentucky 1317 Jewish-owned department stores in Lexington in the 1950s You know, Main Street in Lexington, I don't know if you have heard about this but it--there were fifteen Jewish stores on Main Street. Solomon briefly talks about some of the Jewish-owned stores in downtown Lexington from the early 1950s, and the " ; townies" ; that were members of Zeta Beta Tau with him that had families that owned or worked in these stores. Ben Snyder Store ; Blumfield's ; Delta Delta Delta ; Earl Steinberg ; Gil Levich ; Homecoming parade ; Hyman's ; Jack Steinberg ; Madge Barnett ; Main Street (Lexington Ky.) ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Pledge master ; Pledges ; Ronny Tiller ; Tots and Teens ; Winniker's Shoe Store ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Entrepreneurship ; Greek letter societies. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership -85.65046129999996, -84.50845900000001 17 Main Street in Lexington, Kentucky 1384 Life as a member of Zeta Beta Tau at the University of Kentucky Anyway, Jimmy was our pledge master, and so he--we--we--he would meet with us and tell us what to do, you know? Solomon describes his life as an undergraduate brother of the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity, including descriptions of the house, events he participated in, fraternity customs, and the dynamics of chapter meetings. This includes an anecdote about pledging. Alan Blumfield ; Babe Ruth ; Champale ; Delta Delta Delta sorority ; Earl Steinberg ; Eugene DuBow ; Fraternities ; Gil Levich ; Harriet Rose ; Hillel ; Inter-Fraternity Council (IFC) ; Jack Miller ; Jack Steinberg ; Jewish fraternity ; Jewish sorority ; Jimmy Winniker ; Joe Kennedy ; Kennedy Book Store ; Lou Gehrig ; Madge Barnett ; Murderer's Row ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Ronny Tiller ; Sorority ; State Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Stuart Yussman ; Teddy Bregg ; The Kentuckian ; The Paddock (bar) ; University of Tennessee ; Walgreen's College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; College students--Social networks ; Greek letter societies. ; University of Kentucky 38.030429, -84.51088199999998 17 Former location of the ZBT House at 113 State Street, Lexington, Kentucky. This house is no longer standing but many of the surrounding houses are. http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt7tmp4vjc28_282/viewer The yearbook page for Zeta Beta Tau in the year 1955 when Marty Solomon was president. It includes events the fraternity participated in that year in addition to the name of every chapter officer, member and pledge. 2989 ROTC and Solomon's early years in Air Force training So when I graduated, uh, w--I was in the, uh, ROTC. Solomon talks about his training to be a pilot in the Air Force which led to his first experience working with an African-American, as well as his work in aircraft maintenance. He talks about racism in Illinois in the 1950s and how the military helped its Black officers. He then discusses some of the campus climate at the University of Kentucky regarding racism and antisemitism. Air craft maintenance ; Air Force ; Bill Dixon ; Captain Stern ; Chanute Air Force Base ; Harlingen (Tex.) ; Kappa Alpha Order ; Pilot Training ; Rantoul (Ill.) ; Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC) ; Rosh Hashanah ; Yom Kippur African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Integration ; United States--Race relations. ; United States. Army Air Forces ; United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps ; University of Kentucky 40.2889062, -88.14384869999998 17 Former location of Chanute Air Force Base (now decommissioned) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Chanute_Air_Force_Base_-_1964.jpg Aerial photo of Chanute Air Force Base where Solomon underwent training in airplane maintenance 3975 Life and graduate school after the Air Force When I left I--well when I--I had an interesting experience. Solomon discusses his time soon after he left the Air Force, including time living in Louisville with his parents and making the decision to go back to school to become a CPA and then later get his PhD. Certified Public Accountant (CPA) ; Dale Osburn ; Dr. Koulson ; Federal reserve ; Furniture stores ; Jim Gibson ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Masters of Business Administration (MBA) ; Monroe Accounting Machines ; University of Texas at Arlington Economics ; Employment--Kentucky ; Jewish families. 38.25266469999999, -85.75845570000001 17 Louisville, Kentucky 4282 Career in computer science 1960-1997 And, uh, the, uh--when I was a, uh--started teaching, uh--another--you know sometimes things that look like disasters turn out to be real opportunities. Solomon talks about the time he spent teaching undergraduate statistics and how he became involved with computer science in the early years of the computer. He worked on punch cards that could process linear regressions through the computer. Solomon then describes his numerous professional roles working in computer science at Ohio State University, the University of South Carolina, and the University of Utah. Chief Information Officer ; Computing ; Director of Computing ; McVey Hall ; Ohio State University ; University of Kentucky ; University of South Carolina ; University of Utah Computer science. ; Computers. ; Universities and colleges--Faculty. 40.0141905, -83.0309143 17 The Ohio State University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_programming_in_the_punched_card_era#/media/File:FortranCardPROJ039.agr.jpg A punched card similar to what Solomon would have used with his computer. 5066 Jewish identity Uh, now I did spend some time--in U, in Utah we had one temple. Solomon compares Jewish life in Salt Lake City, Utah with Jewish life in Lexington, Kentucky. He also compares Jewish life in the conservative temple in Lexington with the reform temple in Lexington. He also describes his current Jewish life in Lexington, and his early Jewish life with his parents. He concludes by discussing his personal positions on a variety of Jewish issues such as spirituality, the Israel/Palestinian conflict, and some reflections on his family's Jewish upbringing. Adath Israel ; B'nai B'rith ; B'nai B'rith Youth Organization (BBYO) ; Bar Mitzvah ; Bill Fish ; Confirmation ; Conservative congregation ; Early Levy ; Eli Capilouto ; Elizabeth Solomon ; Gary Yarus ; Hamas ; Haphtarah ; Hebrew ; Hezbollah ; High holy days ; Israel-Palestinian conflict ; Jewish Federation ; Jimmy Droughtman ; Lexington Jewish community ; Morris Weiss ; North American Federation of Temple Youth (NFTY) ; Ohavay Zion ; Orthodox congregation ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Rabbi Klein ; Rabbi Smolkin ; Reform congregation ; Reform Judaism ; Robert Kessler ; Sarah Levy ; Shabbat services ; Synagogue ; Temple ; Unitarian Church ; Utah Jewish Community Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 37.9986288, -84.47181260000002 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue http://www.slcjcc.org/ The website of the Jewish Community Center of Salt Lake City Oral History Marty Solomon speaks about his early life growing up on the south side of Chicago, and how he and his family came to live in the state of Kentucky. His parents worked in the bourbon industry and he grew up working in a distillery where they produced Old Blair Bourbon. Solomon describes his later youth in Louisville and his membership with Pi Tau Pi, a chapter of AZA in the 1940s. Solomon briefly talks about some of the Jewish-owned stores in downtown Lexington from the early 1950s. Solomon describes his life as an undergraduate brother of the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity, including descriptions of the house, events he participated in, fraternity customs, and the dynamics of chapter meetings. This includes an anecdote about pledging. Solomon talks about his training to be a pilot in the Air Force. He talks about racism in Illinois in the 1950s and how the military helped its Black officers. He then discusses some of the campus climate at the University of Kentucky regarding racism and anti-Semitism. Solomon talks about the time he spent teaching undergraduate statistics and how he became involved with computer science in the early years of the computer. Solomon compares Jewish life in Salt Lake City, Utah with Jewish life in Lexington, Kentucky. He also compares Jewish life in the conservative temple in Lexington with the reform temple in Lexington. He also describes his current Jewish life in Lexington, and his early Jewish life with his parents. He concludes by discussing his personal positions on a variety of Jewish issues such as spirituality, the Israel/Palestinian conflict, and some reflections on his family's Jewish upbringing. FERNHEIMER: Um, so, to get us started today, I' ; m going to say, uh, today is August 17th-- SOLOMON: It' ; s August 17th-- FERNHEIMER: --2015. SOLOMON: --2015. FERNHEIMER: Thank you for joining us in the studio today. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I' ; m associate professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies and the director of Jewish studies here. And it' ; s great honor and pleasure to have the opportunity to interview-- SOLOMON: Marty Solomon. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And let me, uh-- SOLOMON: Retired professor from the University of Kentucky. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So, let--I' ; m going to begin with some sort of questions that I probably already know the answers to, but--so that we have the--the--here for the record. Uh, what was your name at birth? SOLOMON: My name--Martin Berthold (??) Solomon, Jr. FERNHEIMER: And where and when were you born? SOLOMON: Chicago, Illinois, eighth of August, 1933. FERNHEIMER: And, um, uh, what--and what were your parents' ; names and occupations? SOLOMON: Dad was a--Martin Solomon, Sr. Dad was an attorney, uh, in Chicago, where I was born. Uh, Mother was a housewife. And, uh, we lived on the South Side of Chicago. And when, uh-- FERNHEIMER: What was your mom' ; s name? SOLOMON: Beatrice. FERNHEIMER: Beatrice Solomon? SOLOMON: Beatrice Newfeld Solomon. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell Newfeld? SOLOMON: Newfeld was her maiden name. FERNHEIMER: N-E-W-F-E-L-D? SOLOMON: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: Um, Dad was a lawyer, and in 1936--well, ' ; 34, ' ; 35 was the Depression, Great Depression, and Dad was a--out of work, actually. There weren' ; t--there wasn' ; t a lot of work for attorneys in those days. Uh, and it--my uncle, who lived next door, was a salesman, and he was out of work. So, my dad and my uncle heard that, uh, well, during the Depression, during the--during the Depression and during Prohibition, liquor was, uh, uh, hard to--hard to get. Most of the distilleries were shut down, and Dad and, uh, my uncle, in 1936, heard that there was money to be made in Kentucky in the--in the, uh, distillery business. FERNHEIMER: What was your uncle' ; s name? SOLOMON: David. David Karp. FERNHEIMER: David Karp. K or C? SOLOMON: K. K-A-R-P. Dave W. Karp. And so, Dave, uh, and Dad came to Kentucky to look around, and they found this distillery was, uh, owned by a fellah named King Lear--(laughs)--believe it or not. And King, uh, was an older fellah, wanted to retire. So, he cut a deal with my dad and uncle to run the distillery for him. And every year they ran it, they would--they would earn, um, a percentage of the ownership. And over a period of years, they owned the distillery. And, uh, during that time, uh, Prohibition was ended. But there still weren' ; t many distilleries, so anybody that could make liquor could make a lot of money. Was--you--you just--you could make it in your bathtub and make money. But they--they did very well for a while. And then, after--uh, and during the war, it was even more, uh--during Second World War, the, uh, government required the distilleries to--to convert, uh, I think fifty percent of their capacity to make grain alcohol for the Army, for medical purposes. So, liquor was even in tighter supply. And, uh, they can--sell all they could make. But after the war--now, Seagram' ; s started advertising Three Feathers and Four Roses and just captured the whole market, and the little guys were shut out. So, they, uh, got out of distillery business. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Where was the distillery that they were-- SOLOMON: It was in Loretto, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Dad would--Dad and, uh--would--Dad was the, uh--ran the distillery, and Dave was the salesman. He' ; d go out on the road and sell, uh, to, uh, liquor stores. FERNHEIMER: And was Dave your father' ; s brother or your mother' ; s-- SOLOMON: Dave was my--uh, my--my--Dad' ; s sister, uh, was Dave' ; s wife. So, Dave was my-- FERNHEIMER: Brother-in-law? SOLOMON: My--my--what? My uncle. FERNHEIMER: Your uncle. SOLOMON: Yeah, he was my uncle. FERNHEIMER: Related by marriage, though. SOLOMON: By marriage, yeah. Julie--Julie Solomon was my dad' ; s sister. And Julie Solomon got married to Dave Karp, so she became Julie Karp. And, uh, that' ; s the way that was. FERNHEIMER: How long were--so, about what years were they in the distilling business? Uh, from about ' ; 30--he' ; s down to (??)-- SOLOMON: Thirty-six. FERNHEIMER: --' ; 36 to-- SOLOMON: About ' ; 47, something like that. FERNHEIMER: And do you remember the names of the--the spirits they made or the-- SOLOMON: They made--yeah, their brand was called Old Blair. FERNHEIMER: Old Blair. SOLOMON: B-L-A-I-R. But they also made wine. I don' ; t remember the name of the wine, but I' ; d go down on summers--in the summertime, and I' ; d work in the bottling plant. And they had this long conveyor where, uh, a machine would fill bottles with either wine or liquor and be put on a conveyor belt. And, uh, the women would be on both sides of this conveyor belt, and they would--they' ; d--someone would put the front label on, someone would put the back label on. Then they' ; d put acelecyle (??) on top and cap it. And then, at the end, they' ; d put them in cases, marked--and close up the case. It was--lot of fun. But it was very hot. No air conditioning. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I imagine. (laughter) Were there--do you remember, were there any Jewish women on the bottling line? SOLOMON: No, no, these were--these were country women, of--out in the sticks, you know? They had nothing else. There' ; s no industry in that area except at this distillery. FERNHEIMER: And do you remember any of the women who were there? Any -----------(??) SOLOMON: No, they were older women. I was a kid. FERNHEIMER: So, how old were you when you were working and about how old were they? SOLOMON: Oh, I was probably, uh--well, let' ; s see, I was, uh--1940, I was seven years old. -----------(??) So, I was eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve years old, in that area. These were forty, fifty year old women. Country women who--I never knew any of them, actually. I just worked beside them. But only for, like, a month or a month and a half at a time during the summer. But, uh, I was lucky enough to--to live next door to two Jewish guys, twins, who became my best friends in, uh, growing up. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: -----------(??) SOLOMON: --two different guys. One was very, very--uh, smart kid who was, uh, interested in learning and--and, uh, literature and things like that. And the other one was interested in sports. But anyway, they became my best friends. And because of them, in-- FERNHEIMER: And what were their names? SOLOMON: In my teenage--Robert and Melvin Kessler. Robert went on to become a, uh, an orthopedic surgeon. And Melvin actually died of, uh, ALS [amyotrophic lateral sclerosis] when he was very young. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: Melvin never wanted to go to college. He just wanted to, uh, he wanted to play bridge. (laughs) Bridge was his thing. As a matter of fact, I played bridge with him only once. And, uh, I was not as--he was very, very good. And I was a--no, (??) I was a novice, and we--we were playing bridge in this big room, um, duplicate bridge. Very, very high-test, high--high--a very tense--when you play duplicate bridge, it' ; s very tense. People are--they' ; re very competitive. Everybody wants to have the high card, high board. And I' ; ll never forget--I made a bad bid once. And, uh, when the cards came down, he looked at my hand and he stood up and he said, " ; God damn you!" ; (laughs) And I slumped down in my chair and I said to myself I' ; ll never do this again. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How old were you when you were playing bridge with Melvin? SOLOMON: About (??) fifteen, maybe, yeah. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And where was that? Is that here? SOLOMON: In Louisville. Louisville, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: In Louisville. SOLOMON: But, uh, the greatest thing--one of the great things about my childhood was, uh, there were two Jewish fraternities in Louisville. Teen--high school fraternities. One was called AZA [Aleph Zadik Aleph] and one was--was called, um--that was the other fraternity. And mine was called Pi Tau Pi. FERNHEIMER: Pi Tau Pi. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about Pi Tau Pi. SOLOMON: Pi Tau--we probably had about thirty, forty kids who were in the fraternity, and we' ; d--we' ; d, uh--we had a basketball team. And, uh, but AZA had a basketball team, so we' ; d play basketball against each other at the--at the--in those days, Louisville had a, uh, YMHA. Young Men' ; s Hebrew Association, with a building and a gym, a basketball court, the whole thing. And, uh, we had a great rivalry, there and they (??)--we had dances, we had get-togethers. Uh, it was a--it was wonderful, uh, it was--it was something that, uh, kids in Lexington just don' ; t have, you know? They--teenagers--Jewish teenagers in Lexington, uh, they get lost in the shuffle. They-- FERNHEIMER: You mean today or then? SOLOMON: Today, today, yeah. That' ; s one of my--I' ; d like to see us do something better with teenage kids, ' ; cause they--you know, they--today, they get bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed, and then you never see ' ; em again. And, uh, that wasn' ; t the case in--in Louisville when I was a kid. We had these--the Jewish fraternities, and they kept us together. And, uh, it--it, uh, kinda reinforced our Judaism. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Were you born in Louisville? SOLOMON: In Chicago. FERNHEIMER: You were born in Chicago. How old were you when you moved to Louisville? SOLOMON: Uh, six. FERNHEIMER: Six. And-- SOLOMON: Oh, wait a minute, ' ; 36--three. FERNHEIMER: Three. So, you moved when you were-- SOLOMON: We moved in ' ; 3--no, no, I' ; m sorry, six. We moved in ' ; 39. I' ; m sorry. I got it backward. I was six. (laughs) I was right the first time. FERNHEIMER: So, your dad had moved down here a little bit earlier to get started? Or he just-- SOLOMON: --mm-- FERNHEIMER: --came down here to start the business in ' ; 36? SOLOMON: Well, he made a couple of trips, but then we moved--actually moved stock, lock, and barrel in, uh, in--then (??) ' ; 39. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: And, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And you moved to Louisville? SOLOMON: To Louisville, uh-huh. Next door to the Kesslers, just by accident. Uh, but that was a great thing for me, to meet the Kesslers. They were good, wonderful friends. And-- FERNHEIMER: Do you have brothers and sisters? SOLOMON: Hmm? FERNHEIMER: Sorry for interrupting you. Do you have siblings? Brothers and sisters? SOLOMON: I have two brothers. I had two brothers. Uh, one brother, Michael, lives in Denver. He' ; s a-- FERNHEIMER: -----------(??) SOLOMON: --uh, retired, uh, a psychiatric social worker. He, uh, did mostly marriage counseling of rich people. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And was he older than you or younger than you? SOLOMON: He' ; s--he' ; s the middle--middle child. I' ; m the oldest. Michael is the middle son. FERNHEIMER: How many years between you? SOLOMON: And he' ; s, uh, two and a half--uh, three years younger than I am. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: And then, Bernie was the youngest. Bernie was two years younger than Michael. Bernie became a--the, uh, director of the Jewish community center in, uh, Salt Lake City. FERNHEIMER: Huh. SOLOMON: Which had a relatively small Jew--400 families. But he, uh--they had a wonderful community center there. A single temple, as a matter of fact, with--they had a--a conservative, uh--well, anyway, that was after a while. But when I was a teenager, uh, most of the kids in our fraternity would go to the University of Kentucky when they went to college. And so--and they became, uh, ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau]--they--they entered (??)--they joined the ZBT fraternity. So, I knew these guys. They were my high school friends. They were maybe a year ahead of me. So, when the time came for me to go to college, it was just naturally natural that I would go to the University of Kentucky, because they were--my friends were there. FERNHEIMER: Can you--do you recall the names of some of the--the young men that were involved in the fraternity with you and-- SOLOMON: Oh, yeah, yeah. Lots of them. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Can you tell--list them for me so-- SOLOMON: Well, Henry Abraham was one of my closest friends in high school, and he--he went to the University of Kentucky. Uh, Irv--uh, Irv--uh, Irv. (laughs) Irv. FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come back to you. SOLOMON: It' ; ll come back to me. Uh, of course, there--and I had already known, uh, Earl Levy. Now, Earl lived in Lexington, but I lived in Louisville, but we knew each other. FERNHEIMER: How did you know each other? From-- SOLOMON: I dated a girl from Lexington when I was in high school in Louisville. FERNHEIMER: How did you meet her? SOLOMON: Uh, I don' ; t know--(laughter)--tell you the truth. Some kind of a Louisville-Lexington dance or something like that, maybe. FERNHEIMER: For the Jewish community or just in general? SOLOMON: Yeah, Jewish--Jewish kind of a--maybe the fraternity put that on, maybe the--uh-- FERNHEIMER: What was her name? SOLOMON: Uh, Connie Goldberg. And, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, you met Earl through Connie? SOLOMON: Probably. That I don' ; t remember, how I met Connie. Uh, not Connie. Not Connie Goldberg. Um, Connie was her sister. FERNHEIMER: (laughter) Connie Goldberg' ; s sister. SOLOMON: Connie Goldberg' ; s sister, yeah. Uh, boy, that really was a--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: I didn' ; t mean to throw you. It' ; ll come back. SOLOMON: Don' ; t tell her that. (laughs) That would be embarrassing. (laughs) Ah, anyway, so, uh, ah, the fraternity would have high school kids come to the campus on weekends. FERNHEIMER: So, ZBT fraternity did? (??) SOLOMON: ZBT fraternity here in the University of Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: And what year was this? This was-- SOLOMON: Uh, 1950. FERNHEIMER: So, you were still in high school, and you were coming-- SOLOMON: I was in high school, and they invited--they invited high school--Jewish high school kids from Louisville to come up and spend the weekend at the fraternity house. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Uh, Friday night, Saturday night, and then--so, uh, I came up on one weekend and got to know a lot of the guys. And that reinforced my interest in the University of Kentucky as well as ZBT fraternity. But when I came to college, they--they had a rule that, um, you had to spend the first, uh, semester in the dorms. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: You couldn' ; t go into a fraternity directly. So, I moved into (??) Bowman Hall and, uh, had two--two great roommates. Uh, Tom Reynolds went on to become a physician. And, uh, the other--other roommate, he became an--a physician, also. Carl Rankin. Carl became a physician, the--both of them became physicians. Anyway, uh, but I wanted to join the fraternity. The University of Kentucky had a rule, though, that you couldn' ; t join a fraternity unless you had a--I think a C+ average. Uh, so, that was really--uh, uh, I wasn' ; t really a--a good student in high school. I mean, I was--I' ; d do enough to get by. And, uh, sometimes not quite enough to get by. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Where did you go to high school? In Louisville? SOLOMON: In Louisville Male High School. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? SOLOMON: M-A-L-E. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: And, uh, it' ; s interesting, in--in Louisville, uh, until--well, now, I was, uh, a teenager. All the schools were, uh, segregated as far as gender. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. SOLOMON: They had a girls' ; high school and boys' ; high schools. And then they had a black high school downtown. FERNHEIMER: And was there, like, a women' ; s--or the female high school that was sort of paired with the male high school or-- SOLOMON: No, they were just all-- FERNHEIMER: For social functions and things? SOLOMON: --totally independent. FERNHEIMER: Mm. SOLOMON: But, uh--now, why was I telling you that? Anyway-- FERNHEIMER: They were segregated by gender and by race. SOLOMON: Right, right. There were all--there were no--all the schools were--were segregated. No blacks were ever in a--my high school, or even my junior high school, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And where did you go to junior high school? I' ; m sorry, I was supposed to have asked these already. SOLOMON: Junior high school' ; s called Highland Junior High School. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: Uh, and it was really a disadvantage because, you know, none of us ever met a black person in our whole school careers. Uh, and, uh, it--it--I' ; ll tell you a little bit later why--why that was important. But anyway, uh, in high school, we' ; d--as I say, we' ; d come up to the fraternity house--so, I had to make a--a C+--uh, I know where I was going--C+ average to get in. I was never--really good student, and I was particularly not interested in math. But, uh, I had this one course, and--when I was a freshman, a five hour algebra course. And I decided if I could make an A in that course, I could make almost nothing in the other ones and still be able to join the fraternity. (laughter) So, I--(laughs)--so, I went to my professor, this little German fellah. Uh, wonderful, wonderful man. Can' ; t remember his name, but he was wonderful. And, uh, I went to him and--and--early in the course, and I said--I said, " ; You know, I' ; m--uh, want to get into a fraternity, and I have to make some pretty good grades. What do I have to do to get an A in this course?" ; And he said, " ; Vell, um, vell, you should--in the back of the textbook, there are about five hundred problems." ; He said, " ; Work every one of them." ; And so, I did. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: All five hundred? SOLOMON: I went home every night, I' ; d work some more of those problems. And that was one of the greatest things that happened to me, because I really got excited about mathematics. (laughs) I was never excited about mathematics. But it would turn out to be fun. It was like a--a puzzle! Just like working puzzles. And--and when you got to the end of the puzzle, it was great that you solved it. And, uh, so it was a lot of fun. I made an A in the course, I got into the fraternity. (laughs) And, uh, course, that set me onto my, uh, interest in math, which is a great blessing for me. And, uh, so, then I got--we, uh, uh, had a pledge class in--in the ZBT fraternity. Earl Levy, uh, let' ; s see, uh, Jack Steinberg was in our class. Uh, Gil Levich (??) from Louisville. Jack was from Louisville, Jack Steinberg. Earl Levy, course, from Lexington. Um, gosh, and a guy named Jimmy Winniker (??) was our pledge master. Jimmy was a--a football player who went into the Army and played football for the Arm--well, they, you know, the Army had this group of athletes that would actually play sports, basketball and football, just to entertain the troops. And Jimmy was a football--big football player. Big guy. FERNHEIMER: Jewish guy? SOLOMON: Huh? Jewish guy. And Jimmy, uh, got out of the Air--Army and, uh, went--actually went to school at Washington University for a couple of years, played football, and got hurt, I think. Then he came to the University of Kentucky, where he--his father and mother owned a, uh, shoe store. FERNHEIMER: Oh, which-- SOLOMON: Called Winniker' ; s Shoe Store, which was very, very successful. Everybody bought their shoes from the Winnikers. FERNHEIMER: Where was the shoe store located? SOLOMON: On--on Main Street. You know, Main Street in Lexington--I don' ; t know if you have heard about this, but it--there were fifteen Jewish stores on Main Street. There were clothing stores, shoe stores, department stores. Uh, -----------(??) as I say, there might have been fifteen of ' ; em. The--uh, and most of the big--the--a lot of the Jewish families were into retailing. Uh, the Meyers, the--the Wildes, the--the, uh, Haymens, (??) the, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Haymen or Hyman? (??) SOLOMON: Hymans. FERNHEIMER: Hyman. SOLOMON: Hymans. The, uh, Blumfields. (??) Uh, there was a Ben Snyder store down there with a--Jewish owned. Um, there was a--a Tots and Teens. That was--the Hymans (??) owned, the Tots and Teens. So, anyway, there were all these stores, but the Winnikers had this immense store of--shoe store, and--a women' ; s shoe store. And, uh, made--made a lot of money in that business. Anyway, Jimmy was our pledge master, and so he--we--we--he would meet with us and tell us what to do, you know? He' ; d give us assignments. And one day, he gave us an assignment to, um, to get the pledge--the sorority pin of Madge Barnett. Now, Madge Barnett was the Kentuckian Queen that year. Most--well, a most gorgeous, gorgeous young lady. And so, we had to go to the--her--she was a Tri-Delta. A Tri-Delt. So, we trudged over to the Tri-Delt house one night. And we' ; re all standing around the front door, and who' ; s--it--you know, there were--as (??)--I think six of us, seven of us. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember who was there? SOLOMON: Well, Earl and Jack Steinberg, Gil Levich--I' ; m trying to remember the other three, four in our pledge class and I--I don' ; t know why I' ; m blocking on them, because I know ' ; em so well. Anyway, the question was who' ; s going to--who' ; s going to actually try to get the pin? (laughter) FERNHEIMER: Did you have a strategy mapped out? SOLOMON: No. But they decided--I guess they voted me to do the deed, do the dirty deed. So, I knocked on the door, and who came to the door? Was Madge. And I almost melted, you know? It was sort of, like--(babbles) (laughs)--what am I gonna say, what am I gonna do? So I just told her that we were--uh, we were--we were pledges of fraternity, and we were tasked to get her sorority pin. She stood there, she took it off and handed it to me. She said, " ; Just bring it back." ; And I thought that was so nice! (laughs) So, we did that. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So, there wasn' ; t any issue between--or was there any issue between--did they know--did she know that the fraternity you were part of was the Jewish fraternity? Or was there, uh-- SOLOMON: I don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m not asking a very good question, here. Can you tell me a little bit about the relations between ZBT as a Jewish fraternity and--and these other houses in-- SOLOMON: Well, all the other fraternities--all the other fraternities, uh--I shouldn' ; t say all of them. Most of them, apparently, required a person to be, uh, Christian. And they had to take a Christian oath to become a member. So, even a couple of the guys--oh, uh, another one of our--our, uh, pledges was, uh, Ronny Tiller. Now, Ronny was a guy who played football for one year and then he got hurt. But Ronny was--he--when he came to campus, he started to pledge another fraternity. And, uh, it got to the point where they asked him to pledge to either Jesus or Christianity or something. And, of course, he wouldn' ; t do that. And he found out that there was a Jewish fraternity. When we came to campus in those days, they' ; d give us a--a religious preference card, and you could fill out your--your religion. And so, the, um, student--student services would give each fraternity, uh, uh, information about incoming freshmen, if they wanted to rush them. And, of course, we got all these cards for Jewish kids, and we' ; d contact them and tell them that there was a Jewish fraternity. Most of them--I--I--I don' ; t know about most. A lot of them would then come over and want to become members. But there wasn' ; t any--uh, I don' ; t think there was any animosity between, uh, the Jewish fraternity and other fraternities. I think they just--we just didn' ; t have much to do with each other. FERNHEIMER: So, when you did, like--when you planned dances or other events, did you invite them or did they invite you or-- SOLOMON: No. No, the only thing that we--every year, there' ; d be a, uh, parade, and each fraternity would have a float in the parade. But we' ; d have our float, they' ; d have their float. Sororities would have their floats. There was a Jewish sorority, as well, Phi Sigma Sigma. Uh, they had about six--six or seven girls. FERNHEIMER: Total or just in-- SOLOMON: Total. FERNHEIMER: Oh. SOLOMON: Not--not many. (laughs) We had about--at one point, we probably had about thirty people. We had a--a fraternity house on State Street, 113 State Street. It was an old house that had been kinda converted. There was a--a hall--well, it was--originally, it had one bathroom upstairs and one bedroom and bathroom downstairs. And, uh, somebody in the--earlier on had put some, uh, latrines in a hallway. So, we had a--some toilets and sinks in a hallway. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How many people lived in the fraternity house? SOLOMON: About twenty. Now, yeah, we' ; d have--like, in my--in my room--I had different rooms during the years. But in my room, we had four people. Had two double length--two double deck beds, and most of the rooms had two double deck beds. So, there' ; d be, uh, four, eight, sixteen. And then, in the roof, there was a--oh, attic room that had five people. Twenty-one--about--maybe twenty-five people lived in the--there was a president' ; s room. So, about twenty-five people. And then, in the basement, there was this huge shower that had about ten showerheads. So, you shower down there. FERNHEIMER: And did you live in the fraternity house the whole time you were in college except that first semester? SOLOMON: Yeah, the whole time. Yeah, it was wonderful. The--it was a-- FERNHEIMER: Tell-- SOLOMON: --real bonding of people. And, uh, uh, we' ; d go--we' ; d have dinner there, uh, every night except, uh, Sunday. And most of us would go down to Walgreen' ; s--there was a drugstore, Walgreen' ; s, on Main Street. And every Sunday, they' ; d have all the fish you could eat for, like, a dollar and fifty or something like that. And so, that was the Sunday dinner. But it--during the week, we' ; d have dinner every night, you know? Dining room. And, uh, not only the people that lived there but the people--the townies, people lived in town would also come. Sandy Beterman (??) was a townie. Uh, and Earl, of course. Uh, Jimmy Winniker was a townie. Uh, Alan Blumfield was a townie. Uh, Jack Miller was a townie. Uh, those are the ones I can remember. FERNHEIMER: Who were the gentlemen you lived with over the years in the house, do you -----------(??) SOLOMON: Different people each year. We' ; d move around. One year, I lived in the attic with five--four other guys. One year, I lived in a room with three other guys. And one room I--actually, I think one year I might' ; ve been in--in a room with only two of us. Teddy Bregg (??)--oh, that' ; s another one. Teddy was a--in our pledge class. And Stuart Yussman. Now, Stuart was the-- FERNHEIMER: He was from Louisville, right? SOLOMON: Louisville. He was the Clark Gable of the whole group. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What do you mean by that? SOLOMON: A women' ; s man. (laughter) All the women just loved Stuart. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Did he date mostly Jewish women? Non-Jewish women? All women? Any and all? SOLOMON: Most of the guys didn' ; t date--there weren' ; t that many Jewish women to date. Uh, and, you know, the--half of ' ; em nobody wanted to date. (laughs) For whatever reason. So, most people dated non-Jewish girls. Uh, but we' ; d have a party every Saturday night. That was another great thing about the fraternity, for me. I was a very shy person. Uh, and, um, they had a rule in our fraternity house that you could either bring a date to the party--every Saturday night, we' ; d have a party in the basement. And you could either bring a date to the party or you' ; d have to wait on other people. (laughter) So, it was a great incentive to get a date. But I' ; ll never forget sitting on the phone--you know, I' ; d pick up the phone to call somebody, and I' ; d get--they' ; d answer the phone, I' ; d hang up. (laughter) I was so shy! But that--in--uh, incentive drove me to get a date--(laughs)--almost every Saturday night with somebody. It just had to be somebody, ' ; cause I didn' ; t want to wait on other people. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um, what do you mean by waiting on other people? What did you--what did they serve at-- SOLOMON: --in-- FERNHEIMER: --at these parties? What--was it-- SOLOMON: Oh, you' ; d--you' ; d, uh, serve, uh--you' ; d pick up, uh, trash. You' ; d, uh--I don' ; t remember what we did. Just wait on ' ; em. But you had to bring ' ; em, uh, ice or bring ' ; em glasses or something like that, I suppose. FERNHEIMER: Was there punch? Were there cookie--what did you--what was on-- SOLOMON: Potato chips, maybe. It was in the basement. We had a big room, in the party room in the basement of the fraternity house. And, uh, that' ; s where we' ; d have our parties. FERNHEIMER: What--what were they--was there music? Describe the party for me. SOLOMON: People just bring the liquor and, uh, beer. And we' ; d have music--they have a--a--I guess some kind of a--I guess -----------(??) I don' ; t know if--the radio or phonograph. We' ; d have music and, uh, dancing. People would dance. FERNHEIMER: What were some of the dances? SOLOMON: Uh, slow dances. They were--didn' ; t--I don' ; t think we had any fast dances. (laughter) Mostly hugging. (laughter) You know, the--uh, a substitute for hugging, or excuse for hugging. Uh, but anyway, that--that pushed me to--to be a little bit more outgoing than I had been, because I' ; d--now I could pick up a phone and call--call a girl and get a date. Uh, but then--then a really--one important thing happened to me in the fraternity. When I became a--a junior--every year, we' ; d elect a new president in the fraternity. And, uh, when I was a junior, somebody said, " ; Well, um, uh, what about Marty for president?" ; And somebody came to me and said, " ; How ' ; bout running for president?" ; And I said, " ; Oh, God, I couldn' ; t do that. I' ; m--I' ; m not a leader. I' ; m just--oh, I--I wouldn' ; t know what to do in the" ; --and they convinced me to run for president, and I did. And it changed my life. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about that. SOLOMON: Because I realized I could do something. (laughs) You know? I wasn' ; t this little shy guy that--that couldn' ; t do anything. I could be president of a fraternity. And it was pretty--pretty awesome! I would go to inter--interf-fraternity council meetings. I' ; d be the president. I had a little gavel that ran (??)--that--I could put on my fraternity pin. People on--in other fraternities would contact me periodically for information or something and talk to me as the president. I had a private room in the fraternity house. I would hold meetings. FERNHEIMER: What did you all discuss at your fraternity meetings? SOLOMON: Uh, everything under the sun. You know, the--the meal menu, what we -----------(??) was--are we getting too much of this or too much of that? We had a--a--we hired--we employed a, uh, a house mother. She lived in the house. The--all the fraternities had to have a house mother to try to keep them from being, you know, too audacious, uh--(laughter)--uh, and she kinda helped--kept the--the level of, uh, audacity down. But, um-- FERNHEIMER: Did she prepare meals? Or did she just-- SOLOMON: She managed the kitchen. And so, she would, uh, order things, uh, actually over the phone. And there was a company that would come and deliver food. And she would have--she' ; d manage a cook. We had a--there was a cook, part-time cook. Uh, but we would, uh--everything--you know, there' ; d be some complaint. One guy would have a complaint against another guy. Uh, we' ; d have all kinds of, uh, altercations. Sometimes--we had one guy that had a serious problem with drinking and, uh, drugs, I guess. And, uh, when we went home for, uh, Christmas vacation, everybody would go home except him. He just--he didn' ; t have any place to go. His parents were gone or something. So, he stayed in the house, and when we all came back from Christmas break, all our books were gone. Well, turns out he' ; d--he had taken the books and sold them to Kennedy Bookstore to get some money. And, uh, this was a big deal that we talked about, you know? And-- FERNHEIMER: What--what was--what--what did you all decide to do about this? SOLOMON: You know, we didn' ; t do anything. We went to Kennedy' ; s, Kennedy' ; s gave us the books back. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SOLOMON: Uh, Mr. Kennedy was a--just a wonderful man. He' ; d--uh, it was interesting about Kennedy. Oh, he' ; s still alive and I see him periodically. But when--when I was in, uh, undergraduate, uh, these--the university had a bookstore right on campus. And Kennedy had this bookstore across from--where it is now. And, uh, the university bookstore had an advantage over Kennedy' ; s, because it didn' ; t have to pay sales taxes. It was part of the university. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: But Kennedy had to pay sales tax, so he had a--economic disadvantage. And yet, the university bookstore was going broke and Kennedy was making a fortune. So, one day I went over to see Joe and I said--we got to know each other a little bit. I said, " ; Joe, how is it that you, uh, you' ; re making money and the bookstore' ; s going broke?" ; He said, " ; Well," ; he said, " ; it' ; s very simple." ; He said, " ; To the people that work at the university bookstore, the owner is a faceless thing, an organization. A university. A government." ; He said, " ; The people that work for me work for a human being. I' ; m Joe Kennedy." ; And he said, " ; They' ; re like my kids." ; He said, " ; If they have problems, they come to me and talk about ' ; em. We talk about ' ; em. Sometimes I' ; ll loan them money, and sometimes I' ; ll get ' ; em out of jail." ; So, he said, " ; It' ; s a different world." ; And, uh, so he was such a really nice guy, he gave us the books back. I don' ; t think he even asked for the money, ' ; cause we didn' ; t have it. He' ; d already spent the money. But, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was he allowed to stay in the house after this? SOLOMON: We--we--we had a big talk with him and he--he said that he was under the influence of drugs and the--he was really a bad guy. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Who was this? Or-- SOLOMON: His name was--his name was Ned Fogler. He was a con man. Real con man. FERNHEIMER: Where--was he from Lexington or-- SOLOMON: No, he was--I think he was from New York. But, uh, he put on a good show and he--he--it--he exhibited a lot of remorse. And so, I think everybody said okay, we' ; ll just let it go. So, he didn' ; t do anything after that that was outrageous. But anyway, so we' ; d have things to talk about in fraternity meetings. Uh, and we' ; d--or we would have to decide, you know, who' ; s going to--there' ; d be a person--there was always a kind of the kitchen manager, would help the house mother plan meals, you know? What--what do the boys like, you know? Do they like fried chicken, do they like--would-- FERNHEIMER: Your (??)--the kitchen manager was one of the fraternity brothers themselves? The kitchen manager, was it one of the fraternity brothers? Or was some-- SOLOMON: Yeah, one of the fraternity brothers. So, you' ; d have--and then we had committees--so, committees would report on things like the next parade, who' ; s going to--what kind of a--a float are we going to have? How are we going to fund it? Uh, or is there--is there going to be a group going to Ohio State for the weekend? And we' ; ll put a group together to go up and visit the ZBT chapter at Ohio State or something. So, we always had things to talk about. Now, you remember interview Gene Dubau, (??) but Gene was president before I was. FERNHEIMER: Wait, he--what year were you president? SOLOMON: Fifty-four, fifty-- FERNHEIMER: And he was the year right before you, in ' ; 53, right? SOLOMON: No, I' ; m sorry. He was two--two presidents before me. Uh, Stuart Yussman was president in ' ; 54. I was president in ' ; 55. But anyway, we had four of us--were really thick. Earl Levy, myself, Stuart Yussman, and Teddy Bregg. The four of us were like four horsemen. And we--at the end of a fraternity meeting, we' ; d always have good and welfare. And good and welfare meant each person could speak their piece. You' ; d go ' ; round the room, anything you had to say--if you wanted to say anything--you didn' ; t have to say anything, but you could complain about something, you could congratulate somebody about something, or you could just let off steam or whatever you wanted to do. And usually, we' ; d go around pretty fast, you know? It' ; s, " ; Uh, Joe, what' ; s your--" ; " ; I pass." ; " ; I pass." ; " ; I pass." ; Well, they' ; d get--the four of us would sit together, and not a--we would never pass. We' ; d always have something to say. Well, Gene was president at the time. And Gene was from New York. And it--course, the New York Yankees was the prominent baseball team at the time, when he was a kid. And, uh, there were four Yankee players in the line-up. Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, uh, I can' ; t remember the other two. But anyway, there were four of ' ; em, they call them, uh, the--not the Four Horsemen, but the, uh, Murderer' ; s Row. Murderer' ; s Row, that' ; s what they called these four baseball players, and--but anyway, because none of us would ever pass--we' ; d always have something to say, Gene labeled us Murderer' ; s Row. (laughter) So, the four of us became Murderer' ; s Row. FERNHEIMER: There were--if I recall, there' ; s some images of Murderer' ; s Row in-- SOLOMON: Right, we-- FERNHEIMER: --The Kentuckian-- SOLOMON: --had a-- FERNHEIMER: --with you all dressed up. SOLOMON: We had a bear skin--we' ; d use--always play--the University of Tennessee would be our, uh, rivals in football. And the fraternity, uh, at Tennessee and the fraternity at Kentucky would always challenge each other for a bearskin. Actually, it was a piece of plastic, I think. But it would have--you' ; d have something on it. It would say, you know, " ; 1955 Kentucky--Kentucky twenty-six, Tennessee twenty-two" ; or what--and so, each year, one of us would have to buy a bearskin for the other--or they' ; d buy one for us. And we bought one for the -----------(??) Murderer' ; s Row. Uh, we got one from them, I guess. Anyway, I--somehow it happened. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit more about the regular activities of the fraternity? So, it sounds like you had a regular dance on Saturday nights. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And you had regular meetings to discuss-- SOLOMON: Regular meetings-- FERNHEIMER: --business. SOLOMON: --every week. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- SOLOMON: And (??) I think they were on Wednesday nights. FERNHEIMER: Wednesday nights. SOLOMON: I think it' ; s--yeah. (??) FERNHEIMER: You had elections every year. SOLOMON: Every year. FERNHEIMER: What-- SOLOMON: We had a-- FERNHEIMER: --were there other-- SOLOMON: --dinner every night. FERNHEIMER: Were there other officers besides president that were elected? SOLOMON: Yeah, there was president, vice-president, uh, there was a treasurer and secretary. FERNHEIMER: And did people tend to go through the ranks? Like, someone would start as secretary and then move their way up? Or was it willy-nilly? SOLOMON: I' ; m not sure that there was a vice-president. Not--there might not have been. I think there was a president, a secretary, and a-- FERNHEIMER: Treasurer? SOLOMON: Treasurer. Treasurer. FERNHEIMER: And the pledge master, was that an elected role? SOLOMON: I think that was one that' ; s--(laughs)--they had to find somebody that would volunteer. It wasn' ; t a--it wasn' ; t a fun job. You know, it was a lot of work to work with the pledges and teach them the things that they needed to know about the fraternity. Had to teach ' ; em the Greek lang--the Greek alphabet. (laughs) That' ; s one thing you had to learn. You had to learn the Greek alphabet. FERNHEIMER: The Greek alphabet. And what else did they have to learn about the-- SOLOMON: Uh, the history of the fraternity. Some--some aspects of history. Uh, some aspects of the university, I guess. I' ; m not--it wasn' ; t a very rigorous kind of a curriculum--(laughs)--I' ; ll say that. FERNHEIMER: Was there a quiz? SOLOMON: Huh? No, no. FERNHEIMER: Was--and you' ; d--you-- SOLOMON: There was Hell Night. Hell Night was a time when they put us through all kinds of embarrassing situations. It was a very, uh--uh, hazing. It was a--you know, was just--there wasn' ; t--it wasn' ; t violent in a physical sense. It was violent in a psychological sense, you know? They would strip you down to--and be naked and have to parade around and, uh, things like that. But it was a--it' ; s just a rite of passage, you know? Everybody had to do it. FERNHEIMER: So, aside from doing things like requesting the pin of the Kentucky Queen, like you-- SOLOMON: The what? FERNHEIMER: You reported the story of--of having to request the pin from the Kentucky Queen. I was-- SOLOMON: Well, that was just--I--that was just a--periodically, the pledge master would have the pledges do something. Uh, you know, just on a whim. Whatever he wanted to do. He might say you' ; d have to go out in the woods and find a piece of cedar and bring it back. Or, you know, whatever he decided to do. Just--just to keep the pledges in line and make them realize they were pledges. (laughs) They weren' ; t quite real people yet, you know? It' ; s sort of like the Marines. They break you down then build you back up. (laughter) So, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, so, okay, pledge activities, the dances. Other activities, uh, that you recall that were regularly part of the fraternity life? SOLOMON: No, just mostly hanging out together, drinking beer on Friday. Friday, uh, afternoons, we' ; d typically go to a place called The Paddock and have a beer. The Paddock was a bar on the corner of, uh, Euclid and, um, Rose (??) Street--now where there' ; s that little strip mall. FERNHEIMER: And what kind of beer was popular then? SOLOMON: Uh, I' ; m not sure what other people drank, but I--I was--uh, I really liked a thing called Champale. FERNHEIMER: Champale? And-- SOLOMON: Champale. I don' ; t think they make it anymore. But it was a kind of a combination of champagne and beer. And it really tasted good until, one night, I drank more than I should have. I got back home, in the fraternity house. I don' ; t know how I got there, but--and I' ; d lie--I laid down, and the room started spinning. And it started spinning. And I got sick as a dog. I mean, I was--I don' ; t know if I' ; ve ever been that sick again. But I never wanted to see Champale again. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Best not. SOLOMON: So, I switched to--I guess I switched to some kind of beer and--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: So, regular Friday nights there. Um, in a couple of the other interviews, I heard, uh--and I know Harriet Rose (??) was there a little bit earlier, about ten years, almost, before you at UK. But she talked about, um, I--a debating society, uh, that came out of, uh, the Hillel organization. Do you know anything about that? She thought that some of the fraternity--that the Hillel and the Jewish fraternity, there was a lot of overlap between membership. Is that something that you recall? SOLOMON: You know, I don' ; t know. Gene was, I think, a--involved in Hillel. I never got involved in Hillel for some reason. I don' ; t know why. I--uh-- FERNHEIMER: Were most of the fraternity brothers--the--so, you weren' ; t, but Gene was. SOLOMON: I don' ; t recall many of ' ; em--I don' ; t recall people being in Hillel, really. I--in fact, I found out about Gene' ; s involvement in Hillel only within the last year. FERNHEIMER: Really? SOLOMON: I didn' ; t even know about it while we were--while we were, uh, you know, uh, undergraduates, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Did you know of Hillel? Did you know that it existed? SOLOMON: I don' ; t think I even knew of Hillel. I don' ; t even think I knew it existed, what it was. I--I certainly don' ; t recall ever going to a meeting, such a meeting. I--I would' ; ve, I think, if I' ; d--I' ; d known about it, but-- FERNHEIMER: Were there-- SOLOMON: --I don' ; t think it was well, uh, advertised for some--I don' ; t know, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Were there other student organizations that you were involved with in addition to the fraternity? SOLOMON: No, just, uh, just the fraternity. It was a really thick group. A lot of neat guys, uh, bonded together, went places together. We' ; d--sometimes, we' ; d get in a car and go to--as I say, the place like Ohio State and stay there--weekend. They' ; d put us up. And sometimes people would come to our fraternity and--from other places. Uh, and then, once in a while, had to do some--I' ; d study, and I' ; d (??)--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: And what was your major while you were at UK? SOLOMON: I was in the business school. A business major. Business, uh, uh, in the business school--business and economics, you know, that kind of stuff. When I was an undergraduate. And then, uh, uh, so when I graduated, went in--I was in the ROTC [Reserve Officers' ; Training Corps], that--the university had a--a course called ROTC. Air Force ROTC. And you could join in your junior year. It was--it was actually classes that you took. It was--you got credit, uh, college credit for ROTC. But the nice thing is, they' ; d pay you, I think, fifty dollars a month. Something like that. So, I--I wanted the fifty dollars a month to pay for my beer. (laughs) So, I joined the ROTC, but the nice thing about it was you could go into the--then Air Force as an officer when you graduated. And I wanted to go into the Air Force and fly airplanes. I wanted to be a pilot. And they said, " ; Great, that' ; s what we need. We need more pilots." ; So, I' ; m getting ready to--my junior year, um--now, my junior year, they sent us to, um, boot camp down in Harlingen, Texas, the hottest place in the world. (laughs) You don' ; t want to go to Harlingen, Texas. But, uh, that was about a four week--uh, living in hell. I mean, it was--they put you through paces, you had to do calisthenics every morning, you had to run every afternoon, you had to keep your, uh, room spotless--spotless. Uh, we did get to go out on the shooting range and--and, uh, learn how to use weapons. But anyway, uh, I bit my fingernails as a--as a kid--as a--as a--undergraduate, I bit my fingernails. Well, the Air Force had a--a rule that if you bit your fingernails, you couldn' ; t, uh, go into pilot training and (??)-- FERNHEIMER: How--why was that? SOLOMON: Well, it was a--it was a--their--symptom of a person that was not steady enough or reliable enough to become a pilot. But we had a Jewish guy who was the head of the ROTC, Air Force ROTC program at the University of Kentucky named Captain Stern. And Captain Stern took a liking to me and realized I had this problem with my nails. And so, he called my mother in Louisville--(laughs)--and talked to my mother about my biting my nails. So, she came up here, and the two of them met with me to talk about how do I stop biting my nails? And they tried several things. My mother finally coated my nails with something. Was terrible tasting stuff, and that got me off--stopped--allowed me to stop biting my nails. So, I was ready to go in the Air Force to become a pilot. I was so excited. And when I graduated, I went to, um, this, uh, kind of a clearinghouse down in Texas. And I was getting ready to get orders to go to a pilot training--and they called me in one day and they said, " ; We' ; ve got some bad news." ; I said, " ; What' ; s that?" ; And this was back, by the way--in 1955, they said they were going to deemphasize pilot training--pilot, uh--uh, piloting--piloted aircraft and emphasize drones. FERNHEIMER: In 1955? SOLOMON: Was 1955, that early. And they had closed half of their pilot training programs. And one of them that they closed was mine. So, they said I--I guess I wasn' ; t able to go into pilot training. So, I--I went into aircraft maintenance, which was fun. But, uh, I never got to be a pilot. (laughs) -----------(??) so I went--that--now, that was an interesting, uh, part of my life, but it didn' ; t have anything to do with college. But when I went into the--the aircraft maintenance school, uh, they bunked me with a guy, a black guy from the--Washington. Bill Dixon. FERNHEIMER: Washington, D.C.? SOLOMON: Washington, D.C. The guy--Bill had--had first year of medical school, then he went into the Air Force. He became--he wanted to become a pilot, also, but--and he washed out of pilot training for some reason. FERNHEIMER: And this was 1955. SOLOMON: Fifty-five. And, uh, anyway, uh, they had this program where I had to--they had--be two people bunked together in a--what they call bachelor' ; s officer' ; s quarters. And I happened to be bunked with--or assigned to the same BOQ as Bill Dixon. And it was the first black guy I ever got to really know, ' ; cause I never met a black guy in school. Never met a black guy in college. And we became bosom buddies. I mean, as close a--friends as you could imagine. We' ; d go to places together, we would, uh, drink together. Uh, and they had a rule-- FERNHEIMER: And this was in Texas? SOLOMON: In--no, this was--now, this was--we went--the school we went to was in Illinois, in Rantoul, Illinois. Chanute Air Force Base. FERNHEIMER: And, okay, can I stop here for-- SOLOMON: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --a second to ask a couple questions? SOLOMON: Sure. FERNHEIMER: When you guys went out to socialize, were you treated differently because you were with him and he was a person of color, at the time? SOLOMON: Well, we--most of what we did was on the base. FERNHEIMER: Mm. SOLOMON: You know, the base was color blind. But, uh, after, uh, after we were in the BO--BA--well, (??) bachelor' ; s officer' ; s quarters for the first four months--uh, we were required to be there. But after that, we could move out into town if we wanted to. And he was married and had a baby, which--couldn' ; t bring to the base for the first four months. But he wanted them to bring his wife and baby to live with them. And so, he wanted to go out and get a--an apartment. And we were so close, I said, " ; Well, let' ; s go get apartments next door to each other." ; And so, we decided that that' ; s what we were going to do. So, he would, uh--he would--now, Bill--Bill, if you got on the phone with Bill, you wouldn' ; t know he was black, uh, ' ; cause he was from Washington, D.C. and he kinda had a--a neutral sounding voice. So, he' ; d call for an apartment and they' ; d say, " ; Sure, come on out." ; But when he' ; d get there, they' ; d see he was black and they would say, " ; Oh, you know, we just rented that apartment. Sorry about that." ; And that happened to him, like, three times. And so, it was really bothering me, because, uh, here was my good friend and they--he couldn' ; t get an apartment. We' ; d--we wanted to get apartments together, and he wanted to bring his baby and his wife, and this was very disconcerting to both of us. So, we went to the--there was assistant base commander who was--black guy. And we went to see him, and he was astounded. He didn' ; t realize--uh, Rantoul, Illinois' ; s a little country, Illinois town. Probably no more than-- FERNHEIMER: How do you spell it? SOLOMON: Uh, R-A-N-T-O-U-L. Rantoul, Illinois. About a hundred miles south of Chicago. Probably about three thousand people that lived there. I mean, really teeny town, and totally dependent on the Air Force Base, because there were probably twenty thousand people on the base. (laughs) Uh, all the--drugstore, the grocery stores, they all depended on the--they were all dependent on the base. Well, anyway, the--the general, uh, lived on the base. They had nice, big--big houses for the generals, and he didn' ; t realize that there was this problem. So, he said, " ; Well, I' ; m going to fix that." ; So, he issued an order that said the town of Rantoul is off limits. No military people can enter the town until Dixon gets an apartment. (laughs) Well, that afternoon, the phones started ringing. And he had three offers for an apartment. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. SOLOMON: And so, he--the two of us got apartments right next door to each other. He brought his wife and his baby, and the two of us, we' ; d party to--we' ; d eat lunch, we had dinner to--he' ; d eat at my house, I' ; d eat at his house. His wife would fix dinner for us. And we just became really good friends. And it, you know, was an experience that I think most white people never have. A really close black friend. It' ; s very unusual. I mean, how would that happen? How do you have a really close black friend--and--and I was just lucky enough to, uh, accidentally get bunked with him in the--in the Air Force. Anyway, he--he--he went back to medical school, got a--his medical degree, got on the drugs and killed himself. FERNHEIMER: Oh. SOLOMON: Sad story, but-- FERNHEIMER: How--sorry, go on. SOLOMON: No, that' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: That is very sad. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: How did you--how would you describe your relationship with Bill Dixon impacting the way that you thought about yourself and your own identity? Did-- SOLOMON: Well, I think it--it made me--I learned--learned a lot about the black community from him, and the--how tough it is to live in the black community. I--I would go to Washington, uh, and--after we were out of the Air Force, and I was working. I' ; d go to conventions in Washington periodically and, uh, we' ; d go to dinner together. But he' ; d--one night he wanted me to come to his house for dinner and I--he said, " ; But now don' ; t drive to my house." ; I said, " ; Why' ; s that?" ; He said, " ; Well, it' ; s very dangerous for white people." ; So, he said, " ; I' ; ll--you--you drive to this place and I' ; ll drive there and I' ; ll pick you up and I' ; ll bring you back to my house, because you--you must not drive here." ; It was a really--you know, there' ; s a lot of animosity about white--black--black community has--I--I guess you' ; d call it a lot of hatred for white people, and a lot of white people have a lot of hatred for black people. And it' ; s--continues today, you know? But it was really bad in Washington, D.C. Especially Washington. FERNHEIMER: And this was in the late ' ; 50s? SOLOMON: But anyway, it made me--I don' ; t know, it probably changed my whole life about how I feel about black people. I never had an opportunity to know one, really know a person, deeply, and share stories and family, I--stories and history and heartaches and things like that with another human being. It' ; s a--I thought it was a--just a great accidental experience for me. FERNHEIMER: And did he know you were Jewish? SOLOMON: Oh, yeah, sure, sure, why, (??) he was--he was, uh, more of an atheist, I guess, than anything else. He wasn' ; t interested in religion. And I wasn' ; t that interested in Judaism, either, at the time. I didn' ; t--I don' ; t think I ever went to temple when I was in the Air Force. We' ; d--we--end up in the officer' ; s quarters drinking beer more than--(laughs)--more--more of the time. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And what about--I' ; m going to take us back a little bit--when you were a student at the fraternity, uh, UK, uh, how did that impact the way you think about your identity or your Jewish identity? SOLOMON: Uh, well, because I was, uh, part of Jewish--community, the fraternity, that was my--that was my world. That was my Jewish world. And, uh, most--I don' ; t think most of us went to temple, except may high--high holy holidays. Uh, we didn' ; t go to temple on Friday nights. Uh, probably be, you know, going out to parties, uh, or something like that more of the time than temple. I--I think I went to temple on Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and that was about it. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So, was that--you said--you mentioned that football games took you off campus sometimes, to other universities. And it sounds like the holidays brought you off campus to the local synagogue or temple-- SOLOMON: --uh-huh-- FERNHEIMER: --at the time. Do you have any impressions of Jewish life in Lexington at the time you were a university student? SOLOMON: I--well-- FERNHEIMER: Or can you describe your impressions of-- SOLOMON: I got to know the parents of a lot of these kids. The Winnikers' ; parents--uh, especially Earl Levy' ; s parents would--I' ; d be over at their house, at Earl' ; s house half the time. I mean, they' ; d--his mother and father would--kind of took me in as a--another kid, another--another child in their family, almost. And the Blumfields, uh, were, uh, I knew them. So, some of the parents were very, uh, inviting to, uh, young--young Jewish kids. So, we had a--that kind of a relationship, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Well, did you--were there any experiences of anti-Semitism while you were at the university? SOLOMON: You know, I didn' ; t experience that. Uh, I thought about that not too long ago. Why--why wasn' ; t there anti-Semitism in--in--but there wasn' ; t at the University of Kentucky. I didn' ; t experience it. If--there was -----------(??) the KAs (??) were known to be very, very bigoted, especially about blacks. Course, there weren' ; t any blacks in--in undergraduate college when--when I was--as--undergraduate. We had a graduate student in the--grad--a graduate--black graduate student, I think. But black students weren' ; t--weren' ; t allowed to enroll at the University of Kentucky until after I graduated, as an undergraduate. Uh, but I never experienced any anti-Semitism. Uh, it might have been there and it might have been, uh, covert. But it--I never experienced it. I don' ; t know why. You' ; d think that there would be some. FERNHEIMER: So, not in the university, not in the--in the military? Did you have any experience-- SOLOMON: No, not in the military, either. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: I was very lucky, uh--I, uh--(laughs)--I' ; m--in fact, in my whole life, I' ; ve almost never experienced anti-Semitism, personally. Yeah, I' ; ve heard people say things once in a while. You know, " ; Don' ; t Jew me down," ; or--uh, I had an--a discussion once with a person who was, uh--uh, I--I mean, you know, I was saying, " ; Well, most people want more money. That' ; s really what most people are after." ; They said, " ; Oh, no, no, no, no. Most people want to do the right thing." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know what rock you' ; re living under." ; And they said, " ; Well, that' ; s just because you' ; re--Jewish background. You don' ; t understand." ; (laughs) I said, " ; What? (laughs) What do you mean by that?" ; (laughs) FERNHEIMER: When was that? That was later in life? Earlier in life? SOLOMON: That was about a year ago. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. SOLOMON: Yeah, yeah. I thought that was almost comical. FERNHEIMER: And that was here in town? SOLOMON: Uh, no, that was actually, uh, in another city. But, uh, I--I was on vacation and talking to a person. But anyway, uh, that--I actually almost never experienced anti-Semitism. I was very fortunate, I guess, in that regard-- FERNHEIMER: Uh -- SOLOMON: --uh-- FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me--um, you told me a little bit about your experiences in the military and your involvement in the Jewish fraternity in college was pretty strong. Um, what' ; s your involvement in the Jewish community like now? Or -----------(??) SOLOMON: Now? FERNHEIMER: --as an adult after college? SOLOMON: Well, after college, I, uh--after (??)--worked at several different universities and retired in, uh, 1997. Uh, when I left, I--well, when I--had an interesting experience. When I came back to college, at the University of Kentucky in 1958--I came back to graduate school. In the--well, when I graduated, went into the Air Force, stayed in the Air Force for a couple years. Got out of the Air Force, went back to, uh--got married, uh, went back to Louisville to work with my dad. Always wanted to be in business with my dad. My dad had a little, uh, unfinished furniture store, and he would make furniture for people. They' ; d come in and say, " ; I want a bookcase that' ; s this wide, that tall, this many shelves." ; Uh, and so he would do that. So, I--I went into business with him, but we didn' ; t have enough money for me to get a salary. (laughs) So, I lived with--we lived--my wife and my baby and my, uh, self, we lived with my mother and dad, which was a disaster. And I worked with him in the business for about a year and--uh, maybe two--and realized that wasn' ; t going to work. So, I decided to go back to college and get a degree and become an accountant and get--become a CPA [certified public accountant] and go out and make money. And so, uh, I--when I got back to college, I--uh, well, I had some--so (??)--experiences, so many wonderful experience--and the first thing that happened was they--and, uh, go to graduate school, to--in order to go to graduate school, I had to get an adviser. So, they--they assigned me an adviser, a guy named, uh, Dr. Kuhlson. (??) And what was his first name? Anyway, Kuhlson was a strange fellow. He would--he' ; d look strange and he' ; d look at you in a strange way, you know? But he was--we were working on my schedules and, uh, I told him what courses I wanted to take, and he looked at that and he said, " ; Mmm, well, you sure you want to take these courses?" ; I said, " ; Well, I--I have to take this course and that course to be" ; --said, " ; They' ; re prerequisites to what I want to take next year, which is prerequisites to one other thing." ; (??) " ; Oh," ; he said, " ; Well," ; he said, " ; I might not see you next year." ; I said, " ; Why' ; s that?" ; He said, " ; Well, because you' ; ll probably flunk out." ; I said, " ; Why is that?" ; He said, " ; These are some of the hardest courses we' ; ve got, and you' ; re taking three of them in one semester. I don' ; t think that' ; s a good idea." ; I said, " ; Well--have to do it." ; But it scared the heck out of me. And, of course, in high school, I just kind of breezed along and didn' ; t pay much attention, did--did as little as I had to do, and I realized I had to work hard. And I did. And that saved me, because--(laughter)--every night, I' ; d go home and really study. And it got me through. But I had, uh, two friends that, uh, are--uh, befriended in--in graduate school when I was going--getting an MBA [master' ; s degree in business administration]. I was going to get my MBA--took about a year and a half to get the MBA, and then I was going to go out and get a job as an accountant. But they were going on to get Ph.D.s [Doctor of Philosophy]. And so, we became very, very close friends. We' ; d study together, we would go out and drink together. Uh, let' ; s see, one of them was married--both of them were married, and I--and I was married. All three of us were married, yeah. And, uh, we-- FERNHEIMER: And was your wife and family here in town when you-- SOLOMON: Yeah. Well, we--when I moved--we moved from Louisville--and when I went to graduate school, of course, they came with me. So, we became three families that were close together, and after a while I decided, well, they' ; re going to go get Ph.D.s, why don' ; t I--I' ; m going to stay with ' ; em. (laughter) So, three of us went through the Vh.D.--Ph.D. program together. FERNHEIMER: Who were the friends? SOLOMON: Dale Osburn (??) was one of them. Dale went on--he got a Ph.D. in economics--well, we all got Ph.D.s in economics. Uh, got Ph.D. in economics and went on to work for the Federal Reserve. And then, he went on to become the chairman of the economics department at the University of Texas in Dallas. And then Jim Gibson--now, neither of these guys were Jewish. Jim Gibson was my other compatriot. And Jim, uh, went off and--and be--worked at the--as a professor at the University of Texas, Arlington. I think he' ; s--worked there until he retired. And then he came back here, and we--we see each other now and then. Actually, I see both of them periodically. Dale--Dale lives in Texas, and he comes here about once a year. And Jim lives in Danville, and I see him a couple times a year. But anyway, we were very close. And, uh, the--uh, when I was a--started teaching, uh, another--you know, sometimes things that look like disasters turn out to be real opportunities. And, uh, one of the biggest changes--uh, turning points in my life came when I was a--a--teaching. When I first came back to graduate school, uh, I had to support myself somehow, so I--I got a job teaching--uh, well, first of--I found a job as a--a research associate to this professor who was doing, uh, research on coal mines in eastern Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: And, uh, my job was to do statistical analysis for him. He would bring in data and I would do some, uh, multiple correlations, multiple regressions on the data so he could predict things like income and these sorts of things. Uh, but to do one regression, we had these, uh, accounting machines called Monroe accounting machines. And to do one regression would take about an hour, maybe an hour, two hours. But then, when you did that one regression, you had to do it a second time, because there were so many steps, you wanted to see if you made any mistakes. And if you had the same--got the same results the second time as you got the first time. And then, if they were different, you had to do it a third time to see which of the two was correct. But it took hours, hours to do one of these things. And so, I heard that there was a computer in the university, over in McVey Hall. So, I went over there one day and I--there was this guy with--happened to be the director. And I got to--I--into conversation with him, and I said, uh, " ; Can--can a computer do statistical--multiple regressions?" ; " ; Oh," ; he said, " ; that' ; s what they' ; re made--made for. That--that' ; s--that' ; s their shtick, you know? That' ; s what they can do." ; I said, " ; Really?" ; He said, " ; Yeah." ; He said--I said, " ; How--can you show me how to do that?" ; He said, " ; Well, yeah." ; He said, " ; The, uh, you take these little cards and you punch up your data and do that--punch up your old (??) data," ; and he showed me how to do that. And he said, " ; When you get finished, come and see me." ; So, it took me about, oh, an hour to punch up all the data. And I took it back to him and he said -----------(??) deck of cards to--I don' ; t know if you ever seen a punched card, but they' ; re--they' ; re about that long--they' ; re like a card--cardstock, like a credit card thick, and about that big. And you punch little holes in ' ; em, and the holes are numbers or letters. So, he took this deck of cards and he put it in this computer reader, pressed a button. The cards went ch-ch-ch-ch, went through the thing. And within ten seconds, the results started printing. And I thought my God, that is a miracle. That is what I' ; ve been looking for! So, I wanted to learn everything I could about computers. FERNHEIMER: What year was this? SOLOMON: Huh? FERNHEIMER: What year was this that you brought the-- SOLOMON: This was about 1960, ' ; 61, maybe. And, uh, so every afternoon, uh, when I had some time, I' ; d go over there to learn more about computers. He' ; d give me a book once in a while and I' ; d take it home and read it and then come back. I got to know him pretty well and, uh, he taught me a lot. But I was teaching statistics courses--uh, but--oh, I--when I finished my job on--with the statistician--as a--I got a job teaching, uh, undergraduates statistics courses. And I taught--first semester, I taught one course, the next semester I taught two. I finished my course work, and so I ended up teaching four sections of basic statistics. And I was getting two hundred and fifty dollars a month. And it wasn' ; t quite enough to make ends meet with a wife and a baby and a car and utilities and insurance and--so, one day, I went to the dean and I said, uh, " ; Dean," ; I said, " ; Uh, you know, I' ; m having a hard time getting by on two hundred and fifty dollars a month. Is there any way I could get a--maybe a little raise of some kind?" ; He said, " ; Marty," ; he said, um, he said, " ; I got bad news and bad news." ; He said, " ; The first bad news is I just got a budget cut, and I can' ; t possibly give you any more money." ; But he said, " ; The other bad news is, you know, every summer, you' ; ve been teaching a course for us. And this summer, they cut out my budget for summer school, so I won' ; t have a job for you this summer." ; And I thought oh my God, my world' ; s coming to an end. What am I gonna do? I--you know, I--I--so, I walked out of his office, distraught, just dismayed, and who comes across the campus but John Hamlin, the guy from the computing center? And he said, " ; How you doing?" ; I said, " ; Well," ; I said, " ; okay." ; He said, " ; Let--let me ask you." ; He said, " ; What are you going to be doing this summer? What are you going to be doing this summer?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know." ; He said, " ; Well," ; he said, " ; let me tell you, I just got a grant, and I need somebody to work over at the computing center this summer." ; I said, " ; I' ; m your man! I' ; m your man!" ; (laughs) He said, " ; But there' ; s only one problem." ; I said, " ; What' ; s that?" ; He said, " ; Well, it' ; s only a half-time job." ; I said, " ; Oh." ; He said, " ; It only pays two hundred and fifty dollars a month." ; (laughter) I thought, mmm! (laughs) Wait a minute! A half-time job that pays two hundred and fifty dollars a month, and I' ; ve been working full time for two hundred and fifty dollars a month. I' ; m gonna go with you! (laughs) So, I went over there and worked that summer. The next year, I worked for him half time. And the next year, I worked for him full time. And, uh, that was my start in computing. Uh, changed my whole life, ' ; cause, you know, I started out to be an accountant, then I got into computers--computing. And the--then, unfortunately, a--a couple years later, the director got killed in a--airplane accident, and they made me director of the computing center, which, again, changed my whole life. It just was a--a wonderful thing. And a--a--you know, instead of being a--one faculty member in a department of fifty, I was one director in a department of, you know, one. (laughs) And so, uh, so that, uh, that turned out to be a great experience for me. But it was, you know, at--when I walked out of the dean' ; s office, I was so distraught, I was--thought that my world was coming to an end, and it turned out it was a--just an--opening a door to a marvelous new opportunity. FERNHEIMER: And how many years did you direct the computing center? From--which years? SOLOMON: Till ' ; 83. FERNHEIMER: So, from--and when did you start? SOLOMON: Uh, about 19--probably about ' ; 65, ' ; 68, something like that. I--I started as a programmer, and then I became assistant director, and then, when the director got killed, I became the director. Uh, but then that opened the door for me, and they had an opening at Ohio State as the director of computing there, which was a--a nice bump in pay and a--course, a bigger university. So, I took that job and, uh, this funny thing, when I went to the--Ohio State, uh, the president at Ohio State had a--uh, had a routine in which he' ; d interview each new employee personally. Every new employee. And when the--my turn to--to, uh, be interviewed, I went to his office and sat down, and we had a nice chat. And somehow, it' ; s--during the conversation, he--he said, " ; I' ; m going to be here for about seven years." ; And I thought that' ; s strange. I said, " ; Why would you say that?" ; He said, " ; Well," ; he says, " ; I have seven publics." ; He said, " ; I' ; ve got the students, see, I got the faculty, I' ; ve got the football fans, I' ; ve got the legislature, I' ; ve got the governor, uh, I' ; ve got this, I' ; ve got that." ; He said, " ; Now, every year, I' ; m going to make a big decision that' ; s going to piss off one of those." ; (laughs) He said, " ; Now, in seven years, I' ; m going to make a decision that pisses off every one of them, and I' ; m going to be gone." ; (laughs) And sure enough, in seven years, he was gone. (laughter) But I went to him--before he left, I said--I said, " ; You know, Mr. President, I--I--you' ; re--you ever thought about having--creating a vice president for computing?" ; I was director of computing. And he said, " ; No." ; He said, " ; I' ; ve--I' ; ve tried that out" ; --and he was president at Wyoming before that. He said, " ; We had that at Wyoming and I don' ; t--it didn' ; t work very well. So, I' ; m not going to do that here." ; So, I thought, well, okay, but I' ; d really like to be a vice president. And so, there--turned out that there was a guy at the University of South Carolina who was a voice president who died. He' ; d had a heart attack, he died. And there was an opening there, so I sent a resume over, and sure enough, I got the letter back saying come on over for an interview. So, I went over for an interview. And, uh, interviewed and went home, nothing happened. I thought, well, that was--that' ; s that. But then, about a month later, I get this phone call from this secretary. She said, " ; We want you to come here and look for a house." ; I thought look for a house? (laughs) " ; I don' ; t have a job!" ; She said, " ; Oh, you' ; ll have the job." ; (laughs) So, I went to the University of South Carolina as a vice president, and that was a great experience. And the guy there was the--uh, provost was a wonderful, wonderful guy. Uh, Art Smith. And, uh, he helped me a lot. Uh, but then the president at South Carolina got himself into trouble--actually went to jail, and a new president came in. Well, while they were looking for a new president, Art put his hat in the ring to be president. And it turned out Art didn' ; t get the job, and he was--but he wanted to be president somewhere. And he ended up as president at the University of Utah. So, when he went to Utah, uh, at some point he called me and asked me if I wanted to come to Utah, and I said, " ; Well" ; --he said, " ; I--I want to create a job for you here at the University of Utah, a chief information officer." ; So, I said--uh, I said, " ; Great, great." ; Yeah, I' ; d love to work for this guy. So, that' ; s when I went to University of Utah. I was there for two years, and he left, and I just--that was 197--1997. When he left, I decided to retire. FERNHEIMER: And then you moved back to-- SOLOMON: Came back here, yeah. FERNHEIMER: So, through all this experience, when you were developing your expertise in computing and computer science, and you had your family with you, tell me a little bit about what your Jewish life looked like then. Were you members of temple or synagogues? Did you--what--what kinds of values did you focus on with your children? SOLOMON: I was just a workaholic. I--I--and that' ; s one of the greatest--probably--uh, when I look back--you know, there' ; s an old saying, nobody ever--on their dying--deathbed ever said I spent too little time at the office. Uh, but I was one of those people that--I' ; d work seven days a week. Uh, I didn' ; t spend enough time with my family. Uh, ended up with a divorce. (laughs) And, uh, one child that, uh, was alienated from. So, I--both of them. I had two daughters, they--I was really alienated from both of them until later on. And, uh, one of ' ; em died. The other one became real--great friend of mine. She' ; s now a wonderful friend, daughter. But it was--uh, I spent almost all the time working. Uh, I--now, I did spend some time in--in Utah, we had one temple. Uh, it was a--interesting thing, because they had a--a--a Conservative congregation, a Reform congregation, and an Orthodox congregation in one temple with one rabbi. (laughs) And they' ; d have--uh, Friday night, they' ; d have Reform services. Saturday morning, they' ; d have Conservative services. And then, they had a little chapel, uh, which would hold about twenty-five people and, uh, they would have, uh, Orthodox services there on Friday night. Uh, but that was a--well, a great experience, ' ; cause, uh, everybody was part of the same melting pot, in a sense, but, uh, with their own identities, you know? So, I spent a lot of time there. Course, my brother was the--before that, my brother was the--I think I mentioned he was the director of the Jewish community center, and he had a great--he died before I moved to Utah. But, uh, he had a great reputation, so I--I--when I came there, everybody had open arms for me, uh, in the Jewish community. So, I got to know a lot of people, had a great experience there. FERNHEIMER: How--how--describe the kind of differences or similarities in your experiences in Utah and your experiences here in Kentucky in Jewish life. SOLOMON: How are they different? FERNHEIMER: Or how are they similar? Just--can you tell me a little bit about one in comparison to the other? SOLOMON: Uh, well, actually, it' ; s--when I was in Utah, I think I' ; d go to temple maybe once every two months. High holy days, of course. When I came back to Lexington, I was always--I' ; ve never been in a--a--anything but a Reform temple. When I was a kid in Louisville, we were members of a Reform temple -----------(??) Israel. And they didn' ; t even have bar mitzvahs. It was--you had confirmations. It was that liberal. That was that--almost secular, you know? Uh, everything was in English. There was no Hebrew in services in those days. Uh, kids didn' ; t learn Hebrew. I didn' ; t--I never learned Hebrew. Uh, when I came back to, uh, Lexington, moved back here after I retired, my best friends Earl and Sarah Levy--and they were in the synagogue, the--or--Conservative synagogue. So, I decided to join the synagogue, but I' ; d never been in a--Conservative synagogue before. And it was a shock. (laughs) ' ; Cause, you know, the only three English--the only four English words that are ever used in the synagogue is " ; You may be seated." ; (laughter) They--everything else is in Hebrew, you know? And I don' ; t know a word of Hebrew. (laughs) So--but it was, uh, a nice--I wanted to support the--the, uh, synagogue financially. Uh, but then, uh, I also decided I wanted to support the temple as well. So, I joined both of them. And so, I--uh, now I typically go to services on Friday night at the temple and--and services on Saturday morning at the synagogue. And so, I have friends in both, uh, both places. And as we, you know, mentioned earlier, this--they' ; re two different worlds. Uh, the people in the synagogue -----------(??) traditionally socialize with people in the synagogue. People in the temple socialize with people in the temple. And very seldom do you have any, uh, cross-fertilization, I guess you' ; d call it. We have a group of guys that have, uh, a--Jewish guys that have Friday lunch every week. And everybody in the group is from the temple except Earl Levy. Earl comes, but he' ; s the only synagogue guy, ' ; cause--and so, it' ; s a--very seldom do you see a--a--any kind of a get-together with a mixture. And I-- FERNHEIMER: --um-- SOLOMON: --that' ; s too bad. FERNHEIMER: How--how did the lunch bunch come about, this group of gentlemen who have lunch--who--who else goes? Earl, you-- SOLOMON: Oh, there were--there' ; re about twelve people that are--uh, I don' ; t know how it came about, but just one day somebody said to me, years ago, " ; There' ; s a group that gets together for lunch every Friday, why don' ; t you join us?" ; And I said, " ; Well, sure!" ; You know? So, I--I joined. And, uh, I joined B' ; nai B' ; rith. Now there' ; s another organization, B' ; nai B' ; rith. And it has about twenty-five members, thirty members. It' ; s another, uh, nice organiza--they have two functions a year. You get--uh, typically you go to a baseball game once a year, and then typically, there' ; s a--or three things a year. Baseball game, outing, a, uh, sports cookout, and then some kind of a brunch with a speaker, a--typically something to do with state government or city government or some dignitary, you know, like (??)-- FERNHEIMER: Huh. Couple years ago, they sponsored one with President Capilouto, right? Was that B' ; nai B' ; rith? SOLOMON: Right, right, B' ; nai B' ; rith, right. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, so those three things--how many people are members of--the B' ; nai B' ; rith, it' ; s a men' ; s organization? Or is it B' ; nai B' ; rith-- SOLOMON: Well, there are some women--uh, wives, typically, that are--that come. They' ; re members, I guess. It' ; s typically a men' ; s organization. Been a--it' ; s been a men' ; s--or--I guess. Probably about thirty--about (??) thirty people. And, uh, so there' ; s a temple, the synagogue and the B' ; nai B' ; rith are the three organizations that I spend most of my--my time with, you know? Uh-- FERNHEIMER: How would you say your Jewishness is different from or similar to that of your parents? SOLOMON: My parents were very secular. We didn' ; t talk about Judaism in our family. Uh, I' ; m not even sure that when I was a kid we went to high holy days services. I went to--I remember I went to Sunday school. But with--yeah, (??) Sunday school was a place where on Sunday, you know, there' ; d be a--some--a volunteer teacher who would talk about Bible stories. I think they--they--they tried to teach us the Hebrew alphabet. (laughs) Well, I learned alpha--(laughs) Aleph, Aleph, Aleph. Uh, I learned the Greek alphabet better than the Jewish alphabet. (laughs) The Hebrew alphabet. Uh, I don' ; t remember--you know, they were very non--they were very secular. They--I don' ; t remember religion being brought up in the family. Now, in our fraternity, there was a lot of talk about Judaism. Uh, we--course, we were all Jewish, and we' ; d be proud of that, you know? We were real--very proud of being Jewish. Uh, but not in my family. And my brothers, same way. They, uh--although my brother' ; s, uh, kids were bar mitzvahed. I was never bar mitzvahed because I' ; m--uh, I was confirmed. You had to give a speech, that' ; s all you had to do. And I don' ; t even remember what I talked about, but, uh, yeah, it was very secular in my growing up. Uh, that' ; s probably why, when I went to college, I didn' ; t really spend any--much time going to temple. I' ; d just go to temple sometimes when some of the other guys were going, and I' ; d go with them. But it wasn' ; t like a commitment. Uh, since I came back to, uh, college, to--to Lexington--I' ; ve been here now fifteen years, uh, I made a much greater commitment to Judaism than I ever did before. I don' ; t know why except, uh, the community, being part of the community, part of the Jewish community made me feel good. Uh, part of something, you know? You want to be part of something. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So, that--it sounds like your relationship to Judaism has--has changed a lot over the years, uh-- SOLOMON: What worries me is that--uh, the future. You know, in the--in Lexington, these, uh, Jewish kids will get bat mitzvahed or bar--bar mitzvahed. They come to--they--uh, before they' ; re bar mitzvahed, you see ' ; em in--in temple or in synagogue, uh, periodically, and then they get bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed, you never see ' ; em again. And, uh, part of the reason for that is there isn' ; t what--what I had when I was growing up was we had this Jewish fraternity, uh, which allowed kids to get together, have fun together, go places together, do things together. And they don' ; t have that in Lexington, and it' ; s--it' ; s--uh, for some years now, there' ; s--temple has had a--a Jewish youth group called, uh, NFTY [North American Federation of Temple Youth]. And the synagogue has had a youth group called BBYO [B' ; nai B' ; rith Youth Organization]. And neither one of ' ; em have much mass. You know, I don' ; t know how many kids from either [??] but the--apparently, there aren' ; t very many kids. And for years, I' ; ve been trying to get ' ; em to put ' ; em--put these together, at least to have it--that in common. Um, with more kids together--would probably be a good thing. But, uh, up until now, the rabbi at the temple was vehemently against that. I don' ; t know whether he thought Conservative people would pollute the kids or--(laughs)--what. But, um, he--well, he didn' ; t want to have any part of it. Now, the new rabbi coming in, I think, is more, uh, amenable. We' ; re going to try to see if we can' ; t get something done there. But, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, Rabbi Klein was not in favor of -----------(??) SOLOMON: He was definitely not. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Not in favor. Uh, but Rabbi Smolkin (??) is. And, uh, I think Rabbi Werchafter (??) is, also. I talked to him briefly about it, and he said that was one of the things on his to-do list. Now, I took--I took that as a yes. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: So, uh-- FERNHEIMER: How does your relationship to Jewish-- SOLOMON: But the other thing about today that worries me is that-- FERNHEIMER: Sorry, I didn' ; t-- SOLOMON: You know, as Reform Judaism becomes more traditional--you know, there' ; s more Hebrew, there' ; s more, uh, uh, attention to the Torah than there used to be, uh, more attention to, uh, uh, Haphtarah, reading the Haphtarah in the Reform that the young people are--I think that--I think that' ; s going to turn them off even more. I think it--they' ; re going to see this as--well, the--first of all, they don' ; t see religion as very relevant any--in--in the first place. And I think when we--we go--we move more to--traditionally, they' ; re going to see--of it--even less relevant. And I don' ; t think that' ; s good for the--for Judaism. Uh, but that' ; s the way things are going, and--no question about it. FERNHEIMER: I--I' ; m sorry, I didn' ; t mean to interrupt you before. SOLOMON: No, no, go ahead. FERNHEIMER: But while we' ; re talking about children, I want to ask about--how does your relationship to Jewish identity in practice compare to your children' ; s relationship to Jewish identity and practice? SOLOMON: Oh, that' ; s a sad story. (laughs) Uh, when I got married, uh, well, my--before I got married, my wife-to-be wasn' ; t Jewish. She was from a little town in eastern Kentucky. Belfry, Kentucky, uh, which had one Jewish family. And, you know, in the--in the hills, they always thought--as Jews as kind of strange people, you know? Kind of suspicious, then--then--different, real different. In fact, in some places, they' ; d have a--a Jewish family and they' ; d--you know, instead of calling him Mr.--Mr. Rose, Mr. Jones, Mr.--" ; the Jew" ; . You know, " ; the Jew came in here the other day." ; Uh, anyway, she came from one of those little towns where they had no Jewish people. And, uh, probably a lot of anti-Semitism, just because Jews are different, you know? But anyway, we were--wanted to get married, and we went to see the rabbi in Louisville. And he said, " ; Well," ; he said, " ; I--I' ; ll marry you under one condition, and that is if you agree to bring your children up Jewish." ; So, her parents came to this meeting, my parents came to the meeting, my brothers came to the meeting, her--her brothers came to the meeting. We all agreed that' ; s what we' ; re going to do. So, we--I was in the Air Force at the time, so we get back in the Air Force and the baby' ; s born. And, lo and behold, about two years later, she came to me and she said, " ; I can' ; t do this." ; I said, " ; What do you mean you can' ; t do this?" ; She said, " ; I can' ; t bring up the children Jewish." ; I said, " ; Why is that?" ; She said, " ; Because they' ; ll be discriminated against all the rest of their lives, and I don' ; t want that for my children." ; And I told her, " ; Well, it wasn' ; t like--wasn' ; t that bad and, yeah, there' ; s discrimination, but it' ; s--this is what we agreed to!" ; She said, " ; I can' ; t do it. Can' ; t do it. Can' ; t do it." ; So, they grew up without any religious training at all. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Uh, she became part of the Unitarian Church, and the Unitarian Church is sort of like a social club, you know? They don' ; t really talk about religion. They talk about social issues, which is probably--may--as important if not more important religion! (laughs) Uh, but--uh, they didn' ; t get any religious training at all. Uh, so I--I feel badly about that, but that' ; s the way it--it happened, you know? FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry, I didn' ; t mean to bring up something-- SOLOMON: No, no, that' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: --difficult, uh-- SOLOMON: It wasn' ; t--no, it' ; s not difficult. Actually, uh, it' ; s the way things are. You can' ; t, you know, cry over spilled milk. FERNHEIMER: How did you meet your wife, uh, from this small town? SOLOMON: In college. FERNHEIMER: In college? SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: At UK? SOLOMON: At UK, yeah, uh--uh, actually, I took her to a fraternity--one of our fraternity parties, and we started dating after that, and one thing lead to another. FERNHEIMER: So, was there a lot of mixed dating while you were in the fraternity? SOLOMON: Yeah. I' ; d say almost nobody dated Jewish girls. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And why was that? SOLOMON: Uh, I don' ; t know. Uh, I think maybe, uh--uh, non-Jewish girls were more attractive to guys, you know? They were blondes and svelte and, uh, things like that. Uh, I--I don' ; t know. I--I never--I never dated a Jewish girl in the whole time I was in college. I--I didn' ; t date that many women. I probably dated four different women--(laughs)--in four years. But, uh, I wasn' ; t big in dating, uh, but I had to take somebody to that Saturday night party! (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So, you-- SOLOMON: I--I didn' ; t want to wait on other people. FERNHEIMER: -----------(??) SOLOMON: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, how would you say, uh-- SOLOMON: There weren' ; t very many Jewish girls, that' ; s part of it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: Yeah, there were only about six or seven Jewish girls that we knew about. FERNHEIMER: So, there were way more men, Jewish men-- SOLOMON: Yeah, about thirty or-- FERNHEIMER: --on campus at the time. SOLOMON: --thirty or so men, yeah. So-- FERNHEIMER: That' ; s not a lot of women to go around. SOLOMON: No, not at all. FERNHEIMER: And did-- SOLOMON: And--you know, and--and just to be frank, most of the Jewish girls weren' ; t very good-looking, which--which didn' ; t help them a--a lot, you know? FERNHEIMER: Did--were they interested in dating--in Jewish men? Or were they here to date whomever when they were here? Did they-- SOLOMON: -----------(??) FERNHEIMER: --socialize with you, the sorority, Phi Sigma Sigma? SOLOMON: I' ; m sure they wanted to date. I mean, I--I, well, I would just assume they did. Uh, everybody likes to go out and have fun. Uh, but I don' ; t--can' ; t answer that question. I just don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. While you were president, were there organized functions with the Z--Jewish fraternity and the Jewish sorority? Or they-- SOLOMON: --no-- FERNHEIMER: --did their own things? SOLOMON: They did their own things. Uh, I don' ; t ever remember a joint activity with the sorority. FERNHEIMER: Any sorority or that sorority? SOLOMON: Any sorority. Uh, mostly guys would just get a date on their own and we' ; d have our own party. FERNHEIMER: At the house. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, how would you say where you grew up in Kentucky and where you' ; ve lived your adult life has affected where--your relationship with Judaism? SOLOMON: Uh, well, I said, in my earliest life, earlier life, when I was a kid, we--I had very little connection--except for my--when I got into high school with--with the Pi Tau Pi fraternity. And some of those guys I' ; m still close with today. Uh, fact, about five years ago, I--I called--there were six or seven of ' ; em that were--live in Louisville, and we all got together and had dinner one night. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SOLOMON: And this was from--God, 195--uh, ' ; 54, ' ; 55. FERNHEIMER: Who--who was-- SOLOMON: I mean--yeah, uh, ' ; 50. No, 1948, ' ; 49. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Who are the gentlemen who are still there in Louisville who were part of Pi Tau Phi? SOLOMON: Who were the what? FERNHEIMER: Who are the gentlemen who are still there who are-- SOLOMON: Oh, gosh, uh, Morris Weiss is a cardiac surgeon. Robert Kessler is a--was a--orthopedic surgeon. Bobby Hertzfeld is a--I think he' ; s an attorney. Bill Fish had (??) owned a clothing store. Uh, Jimmy Droughtman (??), I think, did something with stocks. Uh, yeah, there were a dozen more. FERNHEIMER: And that' ; s the same Robert Kessler who was your next door neighbor? SOLOMON: Yes, Robert. Yeah, Kessler. Yeah. We--uh, back--about five years ago, we had dinner together. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SOLOMON: (laughs) So, uh, yeah, uh, but then, uh, I--I went through a period where I had very little connection with Judaism. Uh, when I was in the Air Force and when I was at these other universities. And then when I--but when I came back to Lexington, I got reconnected with the Jewish community. FERNHEIMER: What was the impetus to reconnect? SOLOMON: Well, my relation--started with my relationship with Earl and Sarah, and Earl and--Earl and Sarah are--are very, um, uh, involved. Sarah knows everybody in the Jewish community. (laughs) And Earl--uh, Earl, he goes to synagogue most every Saturday morning. So, I go there, too. Uh, and then I get involved with, uh, the different groups, the--like--like the lunch group, uh, B' ; nai B' ; rith. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: So, I just--I just keep--keep involved with the Jewish community. Stay involved, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And what' ; s the best part of that for you? SOLOMON: Feeling part of a--I think it' ; s like kids that, you know, become members of a gang. They want--they need a place to belong. They need a place to believe that they' ; re part of something, uh, other than themselves. And I think that' ; s what a Jewish community does for me. It makes me feel part of something bigger. Uh, friends that--uh, it' ; s always good to have friends. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: So, it makes me feel good. FERNHEIMER: Looking back, is there anything you would change about your relationship with Judaism over the years? SOLOMON: Uh, I just wish my kids had been fortunate enough to, uh, get--be involved in Judaism, but they--uh, my daughter is very--you know, the one that' ; s still living is very happy. She' ; s, uh--I guess she' ; s happy. Uh, she doesn' ; t--I think there' ; s a--just kind of religious void in her life that would probably make her feel more a part of something. I don' ; t think she feels part of something except for, you know, the two of us, we have a wonderful relationship. But it' ; s just--it' ; s different to have--be part of a community. FERNHEIMER: Mm. SOLOMON: I don' ; t think she has that. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: And, uh, she calls herself Jewish, but she doesn' ; t do anything about it. (laughs) She calls herself Jewish because I' ; m Jewish, I think. Uh, and, uh, she comes--when--sometimes she' ; ll come here and we' ; ll go to services together. But other than that, she doesn' ; t participate in--where she--and she lives in Columbus, Ohio. FERNHEIMER: And what' ; s her name? SOLOMON: Huh? FERNHEIMER: What' ; s her name? SOLOMON: Elizabeth. FERNHEIMER: Elizabeth-- SOLOMON: --uh-huh-- FERNHEIMER: --Solomon. SOLOMON: Elizabeth Solomon. FERNHEIMER: (inudible) SOLOMON: She works for the, uh, Department of Education in Ohio where they oversee the, uh, school lunch program. FERNHEIMER: Oh. SOLOMON: She' ; s a nutritionist. And they, uh, make--try to make sure that lunches are what they' ; re supposed to be. The right content of calories, fat, sugar, all those things, you know? But, uh, anyway-- FERNHEIMER: One last question for you, Marty, which is--is there anything else you' ; d like to share with me about being Jewish, about living in Kentucky, about what it means to be a Kentuckian who' ; s also Jewish, or anything else I didn' ; t ask about that you' ; d like to share before-- SOLOMON: Uh, I don' ; t know. I guess--I--I think what--what Judaism has brought to me is the, uh, the notion that, uh, God is with me. You know, I, uh, I think that, uh, God is my, uh, conscience. And, uh, every time I start to do something, uh, there' ; s a guy sitting over here. (laughs) And he' ; s--he' ; s saying, " ; Wait a minute. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Think about that. Think about that." ; And, uh, I think Judaism has brought that to me. Uh, and I really do think a lot about right and wrong and, uh, trying to do the right thing. Not that I' ; m bragging, but it' ; s just, uh, something that, uh, that' ; s come to me through Judaism. Now, maybe it' ; s--would come to me some other way, I don' ; t know. But I think Judaism has brought that concept of morality to me. First of all, we talk about it a lot in Colel on Saturday mornings. FERNHEIMER: At the temple, correct? SOLOMON: At the temple. Uh, occasionally we talk about it in services. Not often, but occasionally. FERNHEIMER: And that' ; s at the synagogue? SOLOMON: Either place. FERNHEIMER: Or--either place. SOLOMON: Either place. Uh, I--uh, I get into a lot of discuss--arguments with my Jewish friends because--about Israel, because most of my Jewish friends are, uh, unconditionally supporters of Israel. Whatever they do, it' ; s okay. It' ; s good. It' ; s necessary or it' ; s required or it' ; s justified or it' ; s whatever. And I don' ; t feel that way. Uh, and I think that, uh, I used to, uh, have big, terrible arg--not terrible. Long arguments with Rabbi Roberts, uh, and I told--I' ; d say to him, " ; You know, Rabbi, you shouldn' ; t--you know, every time you--you have a service, in part of the service we say God--uh, peace is our most precious gift. And that' ; s just bullshit. (laughs) Because we don' ; t believe that." ; He said--" ; You know, if we really believed that, we' ; d be working on peace with the Palestinians every day. But we' ; re not. We don' ; t." ; " ; Oh," ; he' ; s--you know, he' ; d say, " ; Well, you know, you can' ; t work with terrorists, you can' ; t do that." ; Peace is not our most precious gift. I think it is. But most Jews don' ; t. At--at least they don' ; t--they don' ; t live their--they don' ; t talk--walk the talk. Walk the talk. And I just wish people--more people would. But, you know, it' ; s funny about--if you say anything supportive of Palestinians, you' ; re typically called a--uh, anti-Semite or you' ; re called a pro-Palestinian, an anti-Israeli, you know? And I say to people, " ; You got to look at both people--these are people. They' ; re all people. They' ; re all--we' ; re all people, you know? And every human being' ; s a person." ; And that really bothers me about Judaism--is--is that we' ; re very hypocritical. Most Jews are hypocritical, you know? They, uh, they say, " ; Well, we had to kill two thousand Gazans because they were sending rockets over." ; And you say, " ; Well, wait a minute, well, why don' ; t we talk about--we' ; re going to do it again, but before we do it again, why don' ; t we sit down and talk to them about what' ; s the problem and how do we deal with the problem? Can we solve the problem?" ; But no, we just sit back and say we can' ; t negotiate with those people, so we' ; ll have to kill them again. Have to kill ' ; em. It just bothers me. Really bothers me. But you can' ; t--you can' ; t really talk about it. Gary--I don' ; t know if you know Gary Yaras? (??) FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: Well, Gary' ; s very outspoken about this, but he' ; s a pariah now in the Jewish community. You know, he' ; s a pariah. They--he--he' ; s--he published an article in Shalom that was--some people took issue with. He was--it was very anti-Zionist. Uh, the--well, just what I' ; ve been talking about, where we' ; re not talking enough about peace. We talk more about war. But--and he was castigated for that article. Just--in fact, the--Shalom printed a retraction later, saying they shouldn' ; t have even published. FERNHEIMER: And that was recently, right? The-- SOLOMON: Huh? FERNHEIMER: When was the article published? Yaras' ; s article? SOLOMON: About three or four months ago. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, it was pretty recent. SOLOMON: And the--the publication committee of Shalom--of the Jewish Federation was pulled over the coals for having published such a--such an article that disagreed with--with the majority of Jews. No, can' ; t disagree with people. And that' ; s so bothersome to me. It' ; s--it' ; s censorship. But that' ; s the way our community is. The Jewish community is so--they feel that Israel is their baby, and you never talk bad about your baby. FERNHEIMER: When--and when you say our community, you mean the whole Jewish community or the Lexington Jewish committee? SOLOMON: The majority--I think the majority--well, certainly the majority of the Jewish community in Lexington. You--you just can' ; t talk about--I talk--I talk to people about the--the boycott--the BDS [Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions] movement that' ; s going on around the country. And it' ; s growing. And people say, " ; Oh, that' ; s just anti-Semitism." ; And I say, " ; No, it' ; s not anti-Semitism! People are concerned about the way Palestinians are being treated, about the way the land is being grabbed up, the way that Eastern (??)--Jews of Jerusalem--Arabs are being treated. They' ; re concerned about those things. It isn' ; t anti-Semitism. It' ; s anti-policies." ; " ; No, it' ; s just anti-Semitism. They don' ; t--you know, at--BDS is just anti-Semit--" ; and they don' ; t--they don' ; t get it. Don' ; t get it. So, if you talk about this, you' ; re liable to be labeled an anti-Semite. It' ; s sad. FERNHEIMER: And--and that' ; s in both communities. SOLOMON: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Both at the temple and the synagogue, you-- SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: In your estimation? SOLOMON: Yeah. Very few people take a long view of this and have any criticism whatsoever for Israel. And, uh--but that bothers me. But it, uh--nothing I can do about it. I--I--I wrote an article about, uh--well, that' ; s another story. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: No, it--last bit. You wrote an article for Shalom or-- SOLOMON: Yeah, I wrote an article about the greatest threat to--see, I think one of the great threats to Israel is not--not Iran, not Hamas, not Hezbollah. I think it' ; s the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community in Israel, because they' ; re very fundamentalist, and they' ; re growing at a rate that within--by 2070, they' ; ll be the majority if the--if nothing changes. And when they become the majority, I think there' ; s a possibility they' ; re going to pass draconian laws that say you--you must not do this, you must not do that. You must eat kosher, you must--if you--if you drive on Saturday, you go to jail. I mean, no--no telling what they' ; re going to do. And when they have those kinds of laws, people are going to leave. They' ; re not going to live under those conditions. And so I wrote this article, it said, uh, " ; Dateline 2070, today Israel died. (laughs) She put up a good fight. She worked hard, made a lot of great inventions, allowed a place for all Jews to come from all over the world. But in the end, Judaism killed her." ; FERNHEIMER: Hmm. (laughter) And when was that? When did you publish (??)-- SOLOMON: Well, I submitted it to Shalom and they rejected it. They wouldn' ; t publish it, so-- FERNHEIMER: Do you still have the article? SOLOMON: I resubmitted it and changed a few things. Instead of saying that the Ultra-Orthodox will pass these laws, I put in there, you know, basically they--they might pass these laws and we' ; ll see. And they might--they might publish it under those circumstances. But we' ; ll see. We' ; ll--we' ; ll see. But, you know, it--it' ; s--if you criticize Israel in any way, it' ; s dangerous. People don' ; t want to hear that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: You know? Israel' ; s my baby. Don' ; t talk--my--that bad about my baby. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: My--part of my family, you know? I don' ; t know--want anybody talk badly about my daughter. FERNHEIMER: Right. SOLOMON: And no matter what she does, I' ; m going to stand by my daughter. If she happens to get in trouble, I' ; m going to stand by my daughter, you know? And that' ; s the way people are about Israel. I don' ; t care what she does, what she does, how she does it, whatever, I' ; m going to stand by her and support her. And I--sometimes I think that that' ; s not a friend. I think that' ; s a--I think a friend tries to help somebody do the right thing, and not always just say, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah, you' ; re doing the right thing." ; I--I think that' ; s dangerous. I mean, if I' ; d--if I told my daughter everything she did was wonderful and never told her, you know, " ; You shouldn' ; t do that," ; I wouldn' ; t be doing her any favors. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: And I think the same thing about Israel. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: But, uh, most people don' ; t--don' ; t agree. FERNHEIMER: Well, I thank you for sharing that today. SOLOMON: Yeah, sure. FERNHEIMER: And for sharing your afternoon with me, as well. SOLOMON: Oh, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And allowing me-- SOLOMON: Well, thank you for having me. I-- FERNHEIMER: And I hope that if we have some follow-up questions, you might be willing to either come back or talk to another person-- SOLOMON: --okay-- FERNHEIMER: --uh, about your time here at UK. But thank you so much, Marty. SOLOMON: You' ; re-- FERNHEIMER: I really appreciate it. SOLOMON: You' ; re welcome. Welcome. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh317_jk005_solomon_ohm.xml 2015oh317_jk005_solomon_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh317_jk005_solomon_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marty Solomon, August 17, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Marty Solomon speaks about his early life growing up on the south side of Chicago, and how he and his family came to live in the state of Kentucky. His parents worked in the bourbon industry and he grew up working in a distillery where they produced Old Blair Bourbon. Solomon describes his later youth in Louisville and his membership with Pi Tau Pi, a chapter of AZA in the 1940s. Solomon briefly talks about some of the Jewish-owned stores in downtown Lexington from the early 1950s.
Solomon describes his life as an undergraduate brother of the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity, including descriptions of the house, events he participated in, fraternity customs, and the dynamics of chapter meetings. This includes an anecdote about pledging. Solomon talks about his training to be a pilot in the Air Force. He talks about racism in Illinois in the 1950s and how the military helped its Black officers. He then discusses some of the campus climate at the University of Kentucky regarding racism and anti-Semitism. Solomon talks about the time he spent teaching undergraduate statistics and how he became involved with computer science in the early years of the computer.
Solomon compares Jewish life in Salt Lake City, Utah with Jewish life in Lexington, Kentucky. He also compares Jewish life in the conservative temple in Lexington with the reform temple in Lexington. He also describes his current Jewish life in Lexington, and his early Jewish life with his parents. He concludes by discussing his personal positions on a variety of Jewish issues such as spirituality, the Israel/Palestinian conflict, and some reflections on his family's Jewish upbringing.
Identifier
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2015oh317_jk005
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jewish families.
Jews--Identity.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
Religion
Worship (Judaism)
African Americans--Social conditions.
United States--Race relations.
University of Kentucky
United States. Army Air Forces
United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps
Greek letter societies.
College students--Social conditions
Bourbon whiskey
Whiskey industry
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/6c9854babe7b97aa4b1053f6f213ac1d.jpg
5c6de1d9a7580766c3cbb05e57ed0f04
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Harriet Rose
Interview Keyword
Jewish leadership
Lexington (Ky.)--Social life and customs
Dating (Social customs)
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
University of Kentucky
College students--Social conditions
Integration
Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.
Racism
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh316_jk004 Interview with Harriet Rose, August 13, 2015 2015oh316_jk004 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Kentucky--Social conditions Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. African Americans--Segregation Civil rights movements--United States Jews--Identity. Religion Worship (Judaism) Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Jewish leadership Lexington (Ky.)--Social life and customs Dating (Social customs) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 University of Kentucky College students--Social conditions Integration Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations. Racism Harriet Rose Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|1(1)|8(13)|23(8)|39(10)|64(1)|86(3)|139(9)|168(1)|188(12)|212(3)|215(9)|251(4)|281(6)|296(1)|329(4)|343(1)|356(7)|385(6)|401(8)|422(4)|435(8)|459(2)|488(6)|500(12)|529(12)|564(5)|571(15)|596(1)|620(3)|651(8)|672(7)|690(11)|713(5)|745(9)|763(7)|797(11)|835(9)|861(10)|876(6)|899(10)|916(7)|925(8)|945(3)|962(3)|995(9)|1023(5)|1033(8)|1076(12)|1088(15)|1129(6)|1146(7)|1171(6)|1198(9)|1234(10)|1262(5)|1279(2)|1313(3)|1331(17)|1351(4)|1363(11)|1387(11)|1410(6)|1425(13)|1455(9)|1489(6)|1521(5)|1551(4)|1569(13)|1597(13)|1610(3)|1629(18)|1650(5)|1658(1)|1670(1)|1699(8)|1722(13)|1738(7)|1770(13)|1829(7)|1846(11)|1871(4)|1895(5)|1924(6)|1948(5)|1986(3)|1999(11)|2029(8)|2038(1)|2056(7)|2079(5)|2087(6)|2095(3)|2124(3)|2146(10)|2170(1)|2194(9)|2202(7)|2214(6)|2246(3)|2263(3)|2274(7)|2309(1)|2332(1)|2349(11)|2363(10)|2379(3)|2392(2)|2397(6)|2409(6)|2414(10)|2429(5) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253335955" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 0 Family background The studio is relatively new. Harriet Rose discusses her family and her ancestry. Harriet's parents are Isadore Abraham and Hilda Rosenthal. Her siblings are Vivian Abraham Marx Shreburg and Irvin J. Abraham. Harriet Rose grew up living in Lexington, although her family lived in several different places such as Shelbyville and St. Louis, before settling in Lexington. Abraham ; Adath Israel ; Harriet Grace Abraham ; Hilda Rosenthal ; Irvin J. Abraham ; Isadore Abraham ; Jacob Abraham ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; National Conference of Jewish Women ; Services ; Shelbyville (Ky.) ; Sunday School ; Temple ; Teresa Roman ; Vivian Abraham Marx Shreburg Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 38.2120144, -85.22356660000003 17 Shelbyville, Kentucky http://www.ashland.fcps.net/about-our-school The website for Ashland elementary school, where Harriet Rose went to school. 916 Judaism in childhood And what about--can you tell me about, a little bit, um, the role of Jewish tradition in your childhood? Rose discusses her Jewish traditions and identity growing up. She went to Sunday school every Sunday growing up and was eventually confirmed at her temple, Adath Israel. Adath Israel ; Al Roman ; Confirmation ; David Moore ; David Wheel ; Edith Wheel ; Jewish ; Kerry Rosenthal ; Rabbi Milton Grafman ; Reform ; Sunday school ; Temple ; Traditions ; Vivian Wheel Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky. 1386 First experience of anti-Semitism I don't know how much you want to know, but my friends were mostly Gentile, because all my schoolmates were. None of the three girls that were my Sunday schoolmates were in the same class with me. High school was the first time that Rose realized that she was different because of her religion when she wasn't invited to certain clubs because she was Jewish. Anti-semitism ; Different ; Henry Clay High School ; Jewish ; Rabbi Milton Grafman Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky http://www.henryclay.fcps.net/ The website for Henry Clay High School, where Rose attended. 1548 College life And was there other--um, was that the first of other experiences to come, or was-- Rose did not think that she would go away for school, but she was awarded a scholarship to Brenau College. She attended there for a year before transferring to the University of Kentucky as a music major. She discusses her college life at UK and how she spent her free time. Brenau College ; Dating ; Kentucky Classification Battery ; Music ; Radio Brenau University ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; University of Kentucky 34.304, -83.819 17 Brenau University https://www.brenau.edu/ The current website for Brenau University, where Rose attended college for one year. 1988 Jewish social life in college Uh, but back to when you were an undergraduate as a student--or a student as an undergraduate... Rose socialized mainly with students involved in Hillel, and they would often have dances with the Jewish students at Transylvania University. Adath Israel ; Dances ; Fraternity ; Hillel ; Jewish students ; Murray Rago ; Social ; Synagogue ; Temple ; Transylvania University College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; University of Kentucky 38.052177, -84.49368349999997 17 Transylvania University http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7k3j390v3c/data/0259/0259.pdf Yearbook picture of the University of Kentucky Hillel in 1938 2160 Debate team And I know you talked a little bit about a debating society in-- The University of Kentucky's Hillel had a debating society that would take place at the temple. The UK debate team had a competition with the debate team at the University of Michigan. Larry Sherman was one of the men who participated in UK's Hillel debate team. Sherman and Rose were named the outstanding boy and outstanding girl in Hillel in 1941. Adath Israel ; Debate society ; Debates ; Debating team ; Fannie Miller ; Hillel ; Larry Sherman ; Sherman Miller ; Temple College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; University of Kentucky ; University of Michigan 42.27623749999999, -83.74131030000001 17 The University of Michigan 2364 Meeting her husband So the debate took place at the Temple? Rose met her husband, Stan Rosenberg, in Dayton, Ohio and they were married 11 weeks later. Cleveland (Ohio) ; Dating ; Dayton (Ohio) ; Debates ; Debating society ; Hershel Lowenthal ; Irving Ziger ; Married ; Michigan ; Stan Rosenberg Marriage 39.7589478, -84.19160690000001 17 Dayton, Ohio, where Harriet met her husband. 2714 Sororities Um, were, were there other organizations you were involved with or did Hillel take up all of our time? At Brenau College in Georgia, Rose was invited and then uninvited to join a sorority because she was Jewish. Alpha Gamma Delta ; Brenau College ; Fraternity ; Jewish ; Sorority Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Brenau University ; College students--Attitudes. ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; Discrimination. ; Greek letter societies. 34.303076, -83.818871 17 Address of Brenau College, where Harriet attempted to join a sorority but faced anti-semitism. 2854 Dating And we were, uh--I was still pretty. I dated a lot. Rose dated Jewish and non-Jewish boys often, but asked her mother for permission to date a Jewish boy from the other congregation in Lexington. She discusses what they would do and eat on dates. Dances ; Dating ; Gentiles ; Hillel ; Jewish ; Marvin Rabin ; Maysville (Ky.) ; Non-Jewish ; Orthodox Judaism ; Romance ; Social ; Transylvania University ; Wing's Tea House Dating (Social customs) ; Interfaith dating ; Lexington (Ky.)--Social life and customs 43.0730517, -89.40123019999999 17 Madison, Wisconsin. The city where a friend who Harriet Rose once dated, Marvin Rabin, lived when they reconnected. https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/obituaries/2013/12/13/marvin-rabin-conductor-founded-youth-orchestras-dies/xMMm8I2vGWVQP5jCBpmtpN/story.html Marvin Rabin's obituary. 3217 Jewish identity How did the Temple reach of to the Hillel students? Rose says that her Jewish identity was not impacted by her time at UK, but at the Temple. Rose and her husband were very active in their Temple, Adath Israel. Rose taught Sunday school at the Temple from the time she was 15 years old. Adath Israel ; Gentiles ; Jewish identity ; Rabbi Milton Grafman ; Sunday school ; Temple Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0356548, -84.48284509999996 17 Temple Adath Israel in Lexington, Kentucky. http://www.lextai.org/ The website for the temple Adath Israel 3439 Feelings of family within the Jewish community Okay, um, what would you say--what advice, I guess, would you give to Jewish students who are enrolled at UK today? When Rose was younger, if somebody was Jewish, they were just like a member of the family to her, no matter what. Community ; Family ; Jewish Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky http://ccarnet.org/ Website for the Central Conference of American Rabbis 3530 Rabbi Grafman So you've talked a little bit about your relationship--or the fact that Rabbi Grafman was the rabbi during this very formative period for you. Rose admires and is very fond of Rabbi Milton Grafman. He discussed the Nazism in Germany before anybody else did. Grafman was involved, along with other clergymen in Birmingham, Alabama, with writing a letter to Martin Luther King, Jr. while King was in jail. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Central Conference of American Rabbis ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Germany ; Milton Grafman ; Nazism ; Rabbis Civil rights movements--United States ; Jewish leadership ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 33.5206608, -86.80248999999998 17 Birmingham, Alabama. http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/09a/mlk_day/statement.html A copy of a letter written by 8 Alabama clergymen, including Rabbi Grafman, to Martin Luther King Jr. while he was in prison. 3720 Race relations Um, did he talk very much about his attitudes about race relations or segregation while he was rabbi? Rose discusses her and her husband's role in race relations in Lexington. Stan Rosenberg brought the Urban League to Lexington and won the brotherhood award from the National Conference of Christians and Jews. Rose and her husband hosted Lexington's first integrated dinner party. Charlie Schwartz ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Ed Gilson ; Harry Sykes ; Idle Hour Country Club ; Nathan Kazis ; National Conference of Christians and Jews ; Party ; Rabbi Milton Grafman ; Stan Rosenberg ; Urban League African Americans--Segregation ; Discrimination. ; Integration ; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations. ; Race relations--United States ; Racism 38.027655, -84.46627999999998 17 Address of the Idle Hour Country Club http://nul.iamempowered.com/affiliate/urban-league-lexington-fayette-county The Urban League's website for the Lexington chapter. 5371 Temple leadership Um, we've touched a little bit on a couple of these closing questions that I have... Rose discusses Temple leadership throughout the years. Adath Israel ; Central Kentucky Jewish Association ; Federation ; Harold Baker ; Temple Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington 17 http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt76q52f8201_40 Yearbook page from when Harriet Rose was the director of Counseling and Testing at UK. 5566 Zionism When did Federation come to Lexington? Rose discusses Zionism's role in the split of the Jewish congregations in Lexington, as well as Zionism in general. American Council for Judaism ; Hadassah ; Temple Adath Israel ; Zionist Religion ; Zionism. 17 http://www.hadassah.org/ Homepage of the Hadassah organization 5941 Differences in the Lexington Jewish congregations Um, so I guess you started to talk a little bit about the situation in--contemporary situation. Rose discusses the differences between the Temple and the Synagogue, the two Jewish congregations of Lexington. Congregations ; Conservative ; Reform Judaism ; Synagogue ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.lextai.org/about-us/our-history History of Temple Adath Israel in Lexington, Kentucky, and its leadership. 6211 Judaism now How would you say your Jewishness is different from that of your parents? Rose discuss her Jewish beliefs and how her Judaism differs from that of her parents. Intellectual ; Israel ; Jewish identity ; Jewishness Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 Oral History Harriet Rose discusses her family and her ancestry. She grew up living in Lexington, and discusses her Jewish traditions and identity growing up. She went to Sunday school every Sunday growing up and was eventually confirmed at her temple, Adath Israel. High school was the first time that Rose realized that she was different because of her religion when she wasn't invited to certain clubs because she was Jewish. She discusses her college life at both Brenau College and the University of Kentucky, including her participation on the debate team, dating, and her experiences with discrimination in sororities. Rose discusses her and her husband's role in race relations in Lexington. Stan Rosenberg brought the Urban League to Lexington and won the brotherhood award from the National Conference of Christians and Jews. Rose and her husband hosted Lexington's first integrated dinner party. Rose says that her Jewish identity was not impacted by her time at UK, but at the Temple. Rose and her husband were very active in their Temple, Adath Israel. Rose taught Sunday school at the Temple from the time she was 15 years old. Rose discusses the differences between the Temple and the Synagogue, the two Jewish congregations of Lexington. (off-topic conversation ; not transcribed) [01:37] FERNHEIMER: Hello. Today is August 13th, 2015. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I am Director of Jewish Studies here at the University of Kentucky, and it is my great honor and pleasure to interview Ms. Harriet Rose, um, as part of the JHFE Jewish Kentucky Oral History Collection. Um, and I' ; m going to preface the beginning of my questions by saying that I know that Ms. Rose was interviewed earlier, in the ' ; 80s, and, in fact, her c-- her interview lives in the online portion of the Louie B. Nunn collection of Jewish Lexington Community, or Lexington Jewish Community. I should' ; ve checked that. Um, And so some of these questions maybe cover some of the same ground, but I' ; m gonna ask them and move kind of quickly past them, um, so that we can go a little bit deeper into some other aspects. Um, can you state your name, uh, at birth, and when and where you were born? ROSE: My name at birth was Harriet Grace Abraham. I was born in Shelbyville, Kentucky, September 13th, 1920. FERNHEIMER: And what were your parents' ; names and occupations? ROSE: Isadore and Hilda--Isadore Abraham and Hilda Rosenthal. Her occupation was having me. My father was, at that time, a, a rapid calculator on the tobacco market. FERNHEIMER: A rapid calculator. What does that mean? ROSE: Well, he-- Well, that was before people had calculators, and he was a--he followed the auctioneers around and, in his head, figured out what the farmers were going to get for the tobacco. And he was very, very bright, and could multiply the numbers on freight trains as they went by. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: Gave me an awful complex. I thought only men could do that. Found out later that wasn' ; t true. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And did your parents, um, and/or grandparents change their name-- I guess when--how did your--let' ; s start one more question back: how, how did they come to live in Shelbyville? ROSE: My grandmother was born in, uh, St. Louis. My grandfather was born in Germany, and came to this country-- I' ; m sorry, I don' ; t have the dates in my head, but i-in the 1800s. Why he went to St. Louis, nobody' ; s quite sure. But at any rate, her-- FERNHEIMER: --and what was his name? ROSE: Hmm? FERNHEIMER: Your grandfather' ; s? ROSE: Oh, Jacob Abraham. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Her name was Teresa Roman. Uh, she had brothers who didn' ; t quite approve of her dating a greenhorn. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And he got tired of having his brothers-in-law tell him what to do, so he moved to Louisville. Why, I' ; m not sure, but he had trained as a butcher in Germany, and he found that there was no slaughterhouse or butcher shop in Shelbyville. So he, his wife, and his first two children moved to, uh, Shelbyville, whereupon he had ten more children. FERNHEIMER: So he had a total of twelve children? ROSE: Yes. But that-- FERNHEIMER: --do you know all-- ROSE: --his, his father in Germany had fifteen. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. And do you know all their names? ROSE: I know everything about them. I' ; m, I' ; m in the process of writing a book. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wonderful. ROSE: And my helper on the book got into all kinds of genealogy, which really wasn' ; t my intention--(laughs)--but I know a lot about, about my family. FERNHEIMER: Wow. D-d-do you know the names off the top of your head, or do you have to look in your book? ROSE: Oh, I know the names. FERNHEIMER: Could you sh-- would you share them with us? ROSE: Uh-- Uh-- Itzka- Itz--- FERNHEIMER: Itzhak? ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Abraham. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And her name was Rosa. FERNHEIMER: Uh, Abraham' ; s wife, or--? ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: And that was my great-grandfather and grandmother. And my--you want to know all those fifteen children? (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I' ; m curious, yeah. ROSE: Well, there was-- I wish I' ; d brought the book with me. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. If you don' ; t--if you don' ; t remember off the top of your head, we can do follow-up. That' ; s okay, too. ROSE: Oh, good. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- ROSE: Um-- FERNHEIMER: But I am curious. And they were all in Louisville? Or they were-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --they were in Shelbyville? ROSE: They, they were--they were all in Germany. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: And--but most of them came to this country. They did not come to Kentucky, however. FERNHEIMER: They-- ROSE: --one uncle did, Oscar. FERNHEIMER: Oscar, and his last name was Abraham? ROSE: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Ha-- Hancha, and they lived in Harrisburg, and they had three children. All of them are dead. FERNHEIMER: And they must--and they came in the--what year? ROSE: In the 1860s. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Wow. So your family' ; s been in Kentucky for quite some time. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Do you have siblings? And if so, what are their names and ages relative to you? ROSE: I had a sister. Her name was Vivian Abraham Marx Shreburg. (laughs) She' ; s dead. My brother has just moved from Louisville to Florida. His name is Irvin J. Abraham. He married a lovely girl named Joanne, and they had two children. My sister had two children, two sons. I had two sons. None of us followed the family--(laughs)--example with multiple children. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And-- Wow. (laughs) Yeah, from twelve to two, it' ; s a big difference. (both laugh) Um, and so you grew up here, in Kentucky. ROSE: Yes. I' ; m--we moved to Lexington when I was four. FERNHEIMER: Uh, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood, and growing up here? Where did you go to school--? ROSE: All right. I lived first on Aurora Avenue -- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --and then on 101 Victory-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --and then at 196 North Ashland, across the street from Ashland School-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --and that was my elementary school and my kindergarten. And the temple, Adath Israel, was right up the street. So my earliest memory is going to Sunday school. FERNHEIMER: When did you start going to Sunday school? ROSE: I think I was probably five. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And did your family go--did they have Friday night services then, or Sat-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: It was an--it was a really reform temple. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And did your family go on Friday nights, or--? ROSE: My father couldn' ; t be bothered much. His father said to him, " ; As soon as you can, you join the temple." ; My grandfather went to Louisville, uh, to temple in Louisville, but he also had services in Shelbyville for the--a few of the Jewish families. My grandmother had two sisters who moved to Shelbyville: um, Mary Sanders and N-Nettie Gorman. Nettie Sanders had three or four children, and, and two of, um, the Gormans-- I, I' ; m doing this badly. Nettie Gorman, Mary Sanders, and Teresa Roman were sisters. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And Teresa was your grandmother, right? ROSE: Yes. And her mother came to live with them, with my grandmother. FERNHEIMER: So their mother, all three of their mother, came to live with your grandmother, Teresa. ROSE: Right. FERNHEIMER: And their m-- okay. In Shelbyville. ROSE: N-- yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Mary died. Nettie and her family went back to St. Louis. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And Teresa stayed with your grandfather in St.-- ROSE: --yes, for-- FERNHEIMER: --s-- and so-- ROSE: --all those years. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: --they had all come from St. Louis to Shelbyville, but you don' ; t know why. ROSE: Oh, I--Grandma came because Grandpa came. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Right. ROSE: And, and they stayed there until Grandpa died, and there was a--we have a headline from the, from the Shelbyville paper after Grandpa died, and my uncle Adolf and my aunt Rosaline Gertrude and my grandmother moved to Lexington. It was called " ; The Passing of the House of Abraham." ; FERNHEIMER: Ah. I, I' ; ve heard of this story, and I don' ; t know if it was from your earlier interview, or through another interview that-- ROSE: --I didn' ; t--some of it I didn' ; t even know when I was interviewed before. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Um, so it sounds like--okay, so once you got from Shelbyville to Lexington you got settled very close to where the synagogue lives--or the temple. ROSE: The temple. FERNHEIMER: Uh, here--I know here the distinction-- ROSE: --you know the difference? FERNHEIMER: I know the difference. There' ; s a big difference, and I' ; m not confused. ROSE: Okay. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um, but, uh, the temple, uh, is where you all lived very close, and-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --so you started going to Sunday school from a pretty young age. Does your family go to services? Can you tell me a little bit about your family' ; s relationship to Judaism as you were a child? ROSE: My mother was, uh, very involved. My father was not very involved. His favorite statement about going to temple was, " ; I just hate all, all those gettin' ; ups and gettin' ; downs." ; (both laugh) But we belonged because that was our identification. And also, my father' ; s brother, Morris, and his wife, Gertrude, already lived here, and so did Betty and Barney Miller, my father' ; s sister. So it was just appropriate for us to join the temple. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. So you had both--you had family already involved at the temple. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And were there other families who were not blood related that your family did holidays or other things with, or--? ROSE: The temple was very small at that point, and the Jewish holidays we all celebrated together. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: I thought they were all kin to me. FERNHEIMER: Oh. (laughs) ROSE: I was-- FERNHEIMER: --did they have celebrations at the temple itself, or--? ROSE: Well, uh, we had a Seder at the temple. In fact, I didn' ; t know what a home seder was until I got married and moved--went to Cleveland, and after that we had a home seder. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. ROSE: When I came back here. FERNHEIMER: When you say your mom was really involved with the temple, what did that mean? ROSE: Well, women made the temple run, the sisterhood. She was president of the sisterhood. She was president of the National Conference of Jewish Women-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --Council, Council of Jewish Women. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And we spent-- I remember rolling matzo balls in the kitchen where mother was, and Mrs. Fire, and her maid. Everybody did the same things. We had a congregational dinner once a year, and mother was very often chairman. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Of the dinner? ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And what about--can you tell me about, a little bit, the role of Jewish traditions in your childhood? W-were they all temple-related, or were there family traditions? ROSE: Oh, the family had many traditions, but, as I said, they were Reform Jews, and aggressively Reform, I think. My grandmother was a second generation in America, and-- This is complicated, but my grandmother' ; s brother married my mother' ; s-- My mother came from a family called Rosenthal. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: There were six or seven children in that family. Kerry Rosenthal married Al Roman, so they w-- we--we are double cousins with some of them. Um, mother was a niece to Aunt Kerry and Al Roman, so she knew the Abrahams-- FERNHEIMER: --bef-- bef-- ROSE: --well, before they were Mama and Papa they were Aunt Teresa and Uncle Jake to her. My father met my mother when he went to his sister' ; s funeral. She married somebody in St. Louis, and, and during the war, the First World War, she died of the flu. She was pregnant. And so when he in--went to St. Louis, he, he met the prettiest wom-- girl he' ; d ever seen, he said, my mother, and they were married two years after that. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And so after--they married in St. Louis, and-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --and then they moved to Shelbyville. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And then they moved to Lexington. ROSE: And Frankfort was in there s-- for a while. FERNHEIMER: In between? ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, what did your parents teach you about Judaism? ROSE: I don' ; t know. I was confirm-- I went to Sunday school every Sunday. Everybody did that we knew. Uh, if some--if a, a child didn' ; t come to Sunday school, he was either sick or his parents went out of town. It was just what we did on Sunday morning. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And we were confirmed. Um, I was confirmed with three other girls. In the temple there are the pictures of all our confirmation classes. Have you seen them? FERNHEIMER: I have seen. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s pretty remarkable, actually. ROSE: Well, I, I, I thought that was just the way it went, and it was. Uh, Louisville was just like that with the Reform Jews. What my f-- family taught me about Judaism? Everything I knew, I guess, but it was all temple-related. It was--I knew the holidays. We observed the holidays, the whole--the Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Nobody ever fasted. My mother was confirmed in St. Louis in, in a Reform temple. There were only two intermarriages in the--all those twelve Abraham children. One was to an Orthodox woman--(both laugh)--and the other was to a Baptist. And, and so it didn' ; t make any difference, except my cousin Leonard was a son of the Orthodox woman, and he was instructed when he had bacon at my grandfather' ; s house to tell his other grandfather it was corn beef. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) That' ; s pretty awesome. ROSE: Nobody kept kosher. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, any--is there any one particular, particularly vivid memory from your childhood that you' ; d like to share? ROSE: I' ; ve many vivid memories. Uh, do you have any, any--do you have Vivian Wheel on your list of--to be interviewed? FERNHEIMER: Uh, not yet. Tell me about Vivian. ROSE: Well, Vivian' ; s family was Orthodox, but she married David Wheel-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --who was--whose grandmother played cards with my grandmother five nights a week. And-- FERNHEIMER: --what kind of cards did they play? ROSE: I guess it was gin--it was rummy, but it wasn' ; t gin at that point. They didn' ; t know that. And I don' ; t know what else. But David Moore, his brother, would bring Mammy Isaacs to my grandmother' ; s house, and they played cards. And, and their mother, Edith Wheel, was my Sunday school teacher. She was the principal of the Sunday school. Her husband had died during the war, and she and her mother and two sons lived here, and she was from Louisville, so she really made the Jewishness in the Sunday school. FERNHEIMER: Ah, so she, she was kind of the force behind it. ROSE: Yes, she was definitely the force behind the Sunday school that I grew up in. In fact, she drew maps of the Fertile Crescent, and, and when--the first time I went to Israel, I wrote a postcard saying, " ; I' ; m walking on what you told me about all those years." ; She was frequently my Sunday school teacher, because there were volunteers who taught, and wherever there was a vacancy she taught. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How many students were in your Sunday school class? You said you were confirmed with three-- ROSE: --three, four-- FERNHEIMER: --three other women, so were you-- ROSE: --um-hm, no boys. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: And we knew who-- FERNHEIMER: --and who were the women? Just so we know. Uh-- ROSE: Uh, well, they' ; re all dead. Um, Helen Ades --I think she' ; s dead--Miriam Blum, and Judy Wheel. FERNHEIMER: So she--Judy Wheel was the daughter of Edith Wheel? No. ROSE: No, there was a different fa-- they were related, but it wasn' ; t-- FERNHEIMER: --the same family. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, so four--so you and three other women all the way, all those years. ROSE: We were girls. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: We didn' ; t get to be women till we were grown up. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: That' ; s pretty amazing. Um, well, if there' ; s not one particular thing, sit on it, and maybe something will come. ROSE: Oh, confirmation. Uh, the temple got--well, I adored our rabbi, Milton Grafman. He came the year before I was confirmed, I think. FERNHEIMER: And that would' ; ve been what year? ROSE: I was twelve. Thirty-two. FERNHEIMER: Okay. So he came in 1932. ROSE: Yeah. I don' ; t know how much you want to know, but my friends were mostly Gentile, because all my schoolmates were. None of the three girls that were my Sunday schoolmates were in the same class with me. I skipped a lot, and I looked a little older, and when Rabbi Grafman came and apportioned us to classes, he didn' ; t know what to do with me, and the older girls didn' ; t want me in that class, so he put me in the class where I was the same age but not the same grade. And I went--I, when I went to high school-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --at Henry Clay, I found out I was different, because all my people I had been associated with, the Gentiles, went into clubs, and I wasn' ; t invited. FERNHEIMER: Was it that you weren' ; t invited, or were you not allowed? There' ; s a slight difference. ROSE: Well, they didn' ; t invite me. I, I suppose I wasn' ; t allowed, but it was the first time I found out I was different-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --from them. FERNHEIMER: What-- ROSE: --I was pretty, and I was smart, and I was one of them up to that point. And that was a great shock. It was the first time being Jewish meant anything disagreeable. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And the rabbi was a tremendous help, and-- FERNHEIMER: --Rabbi Grafman. ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And where did he come from? He was here for a short while, and then he moved to Alabama, right? ROSE: Well, it was--it felt like a long time. He was here from, from ' ; 32 to ' ; 41, ' ; 42, maybe. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: And for us, to have a rabbi that stayed that long was remarkable. FERNHEIMER: Was it unusual? ROSE: Yes, it was. Most--we' ; re so close to Hebrew Union College-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --that we usually got a graduate, um, who stayed a year or so. FERNHEIMER: And then moved on to-- ROSE: --uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: --somewhere else. Hmm. ROSE: He was the first of our long-time rabbis. FERNHEIMER: And what did he do to help you--? It sounds like--would it be fair to characterize your treatment in high school as your first experience with anti-Semitism? ROSE: Yeah, I think so. That was my first experience. FERNHEIMER: And was there other--was that the first of other experiences to come, or was-- ROSE: --oh we duplicated it when we got to college. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: I went to--I-- I--there was no possibility of my going away to school, except that I scored the highest score on the Kentucky Classification Battery, which was given to all the high school seniors in Kentucky. And I hadn' ; t hit a lick, really, in school, and my teachers were very surprised, and I was very surprised, too. And I was a singer, and I won--I got a superior in the state contest. So Brenau College in Gainesville, Georgia was converting from a conservatory to a college, and they came and offered me a scholarship. And my father said we couldn' ; t afford it, and then they ra-- they raised the ante, and I went away to school my first--my, my freshman year. FERNHEIMER: So you went to the conservatory in, in Georgia for the first year? ROSE: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: And did you finish there? ROSE: Oh, no. One year was enough. Well, really, my tea-- my voice teacher let me know at the end of that year she was not returning. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: So I was going back, but then it was so simple, I just walked down Euclid Avenue, and then went to the old alumni gym, and arranged a student to come to the university as a transfer student that day. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Wow. And what year was that? When did you start at the University of Kentucky? ROSE: Well, I graduated high school in ' ; 37. I went away in, uh, the fall of ' ; 38. FERNHEIMER: And can you tell me a little bit about your experiences in university at the University of Kentucky? What were your major studies, and what were-- ROSE: --I was a music major, because you didn' ; t-- Well, obviously I was, and you didn' ; t have to take math--(laughter)--and that was great. FERNHEIMER: And, uh, and what, what were the main activities that you occupied yourself with while in college, aside from your studies? Um-- ROSE: --boys. FERNHEIMER: Boys. Uh, Jewish boys? Non-Jewish boys? All boys? ROSE: All, all kind of boys. And I was in the radio. I t-- I told you at the top of McVey Hall-- FERNHEIMER: --uh-huh. ROSE: --was WBKY, only it wasn' ; t that name then. And I worked there. That was-- FERNHEIMER: What did you do? ROSE: Well, I was a director of voice music. And I got programs together. And loved it. FERNHEIMER: So were the programs for the radio show? Did they go--? ROSE: The radio, yes. We, we broadcast. FERNHEIMER: And what, what kind of programs did you bring, or did you like to bring? ROSE: I did, I did one called, uh, Songs of Our Fathers. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. ROSE: It was music, not only Jewish, but, uh, Christian, too. FERNHEIMER: How did the campus react to hearing these Jewish songs? ROSE: They never listened. FERNHEIMER: Oh. (laughs) ROSE: But some rabbi somewhere did, and he wrote saying it was a wonderful program. " ; If you' ; re gonna do anything like it, let me know," ; ' ; cause he just happened on to it accidentally. FERNHEIMER: W-- do you remember where he was from, or where--? ROSE: No, I really don' ; t, and I don' ; t know his name. I just thought it was lovely. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. How long did you do that, the radio programs? ROSE: I worked there, uh, for th-the three years I was in college. FERNHEIMER: So you graduated in 1941? Okay. ROSE: Right. FERNHEIMER: And you studied music. K-- where did you live? Did you live at home, or did you live on campus? ROSE: I lived at home. I was a town girl. We lived, at that point, at 432 Hollywood Drive. FERNHEIMER: And can you describe a typical day in your life as a college student? What did you do? Where did you go? What did you eat? Study? Who did you socialize with? How did you relax? ROSE: I--well, I walked to school, ' ; cause it was down, just down Euclid Avenue. Sometimes I had a date for breakfast. FERNHEIMER: Where would you go to eat? ROSE: Oh, uh, we didn' ; t go to eat. We just had a date. (both laugh) As a matter of fact, it was--the music and art and drama departments were in a building, a little frame building, which burned later, and they--then they moved to Singletary. But, um, I associated with the people in the music department. The--we all took the same courses. FERNHEIMER: So there was a strong cohort. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And did you eat mostly with your family at home, or were there--were there cafeterias on campus? Tell me what campus was like. It' ; s hard to imagine. Uh, it looks different every day right now. ROSE: Well, it looked the same for a long time. (laughter) You know where Alumni Gym is? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Or was. ROSE: Was. May--it may not be now. It was right around there. We took classes. Oh, and, and some of-- I-- The Taylor Education Building-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --were some of our classes, and, uh, eh, wherever arts and sciences were taught. Uh, Miller Hall, I know I had languages there. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: I took French and German, both. Later German. I, I graduated in ' ; 41. I came back in ' ; 60, and got my master' ; s and PhD. FERNHEIMER: Wow. In what field? ROSE: Counseling psychology. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. And then you went on to direct the counseling center here-- ROSE: And testing center, um-hm. FERNHEIMER: From when to when did you do that? So three degrees from UK. ROSE: Yeah. I' ; m-- (laughs) I was an undergraduate, graduate student, a faculty member, and an administrator-- FERNHEIMER: --wow, so a long-- ROSE: --I knew the whole place. FERNHEIMER: You knew it inside and out. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Um, but back to when you were an undergraduate as a student, uh, or a student as an undergraduate, um, I know--you' ; ve mentioned in your earlier interview that you were involved with Hillel, and-- ROSE: --well, Hillel--the temple made a real effort with Jewish students. We went to temple Friday nights. We had dances after temple, and-- FERNHEIMER: --this was for the University of Kentucky college students? ROSE: Yes, and Transylvania. FERNHEIMER: And Transylvania. So you guys came together to socialize at the temple. ROSE: Yes. We didn' ; t--the, the synagogue people, and we did not socialize much. FERNHEIMER: So Hillel was mostly a Reform Jewish affair? Affair isn' ; t the right word. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Uh, organization at that time? ROSE: I don' ; t know why it was, but Hillel was here. There were students-- We paid no attention to who belonged. There were all those boys, and we were girls. And we attracted them. And-- FERNHEIMER: --this is at the dances, or in general? ROSE: At the dances, and, and, and they came to temple, and they were invited to, uh, Seders and things like that. FERNHEIMER: How many students would you say participated in Hillel at that time? Or how many Jewish students do you remember on campus at that time? ROSE: Damn few. Maybe twenty. FERNHEIMER: Twenty. And, uh, do you remember their names, the ones who came regularly to the dances? How many were at Transylvania, or does the twenty include those at Transylvania, as well? ROSE: That included them. It was not a Jewish college. It was not a place-- It didn' ; t matter. There was one Jewish professor. FERNHEIMER: Who was that? ROSE: Murray Rago. He was the head of Back To Reality. His mother--his wife and my mother were best friends. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And where did he come from? ROSE: East somewhere. FERNHEIMER: So there were twenty students involved with Hillel. Were these the same students who were involved with the Jewish fraternity at the time? ROSE: Yes. There were, that' ; s all there were. FERNHEIMER: So there--was there a distinction between ZBT and Hillel? ROSE: ZBT didn' ; t exist. It was something--it was called something else. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And it--I think-- FERNHEIMER: --that' ; s right. ROSE: --for-- it was formed maybe the year I graduated. FERNHEIMER: And there was a Jewish sorority at one point in time, as well. Was that after you were already gone-- ROSE: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --from UK as a student? Okay. And I know you talked a little bit about a debating society-- ROSE: --well, there was a-- FERNHEIMER: --in your last interview. ROSE: --there was a debating team. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell--? This was a specifically Hillel debating team. Tell me about that. I' ; m fascinated. ROSE: Are you really? FERNHEIMER: Really. ROSE: I don' ; t know anything about it, except they were pretty good, but they were all boys. FERNHEIMER: All boys. ROSE: Yeah. And--well, girls didn' ; t do things like that. FERNHEIMER: They didn' ; t do debate. ROSE: No, not-- FERNHEIMER: --not at that time. ROSE: --at that time. The reason I talked about that was the University of Michigan sent their Hillel debating time here to bi-- to debate ours. And-- FERNHEIMER: --so it was a big enough thing that there were actual intercollegial debating matches. ROSE: Right. And one of the guys--uh, I went to that, ' ; cause I--we went to everything that was Jewish in any way. FERNHEIMER: Who were the students who did the debating from the UK Hillel? Do you remember? ROSE: Larry Sherman, I' ; m sure, was one of them. He and I won--were named the outstanding boy and outstanding girl in Hillel, uh, se-- senior year in college. FERNHEIMER: So in ' ; 41? ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And what did that mean, outstanding boy and girl? ROSE: How do I know? (laughter) FERNHEIMER: Who d-- who made the decision? ROSE: I don' ; t know! FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Might' ; ve been Fannie and Sher-- and Sherman Miller. They may have been-- They probably had something to do with it. FERNHEIMER: F-Fannie and, and Sherman? ROSE: And Sherman Miller. Um, they had three children. (laughs) Joe Miller, who was a lawyer, and died recent-- fairly recently, and, um, Faith, who died-- Sammy, who is a girl, was lately president of, of the temple. Oh, Fannie Miller was a professor of education, and a very good teacher. And, um, she was very much involved with the youth of the temple. But she came--you know, she wasn' ; t much older than I was, so-- FERNHEIMER: So was she kind of like the staff organizer, or--? I' ; m trying to think about the models I know from Hillel now. ROSE: I wouldn' ; t worry with it, ' ; cause I don' ; t think they were those models. It was a place for socializing, and, obviously, debate, because it was a team. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And so Larry, Larry Sherman was one of the debaters? Uh, do you recall? ROSE: I' ; m sure he was. FERNHEIMER: Any other names that you can recall? Do you know what s-- what did they debate? What--? ROSE: I haven' ; t any idea. (laughter) I was this--I was a girl, a music major, social. FERNHEIMER: And so you went just to observe-- ROSE: --because I-- FERNHEIMER: --or to support? ROSE: --because that was a thing you did. If there was a pro-- a Jewish program at temple, you went. FERNHEIMER: So the debate took place at the temple? ROSE: Yes, it was at the temple. I had a date with somebody else named Harold, uh, Lowenthal. What was his name? (laughs) Hershel, Hershel Lowenthal. One of the boys on the debate team from Michigan wanted--he asked me out that night. I was really pretty. I didn' ; t know it, but I was. And I said, " ; Well, I have a date. May-- maybe you could go with us." ; And Hershel said no, he couldn' ; t go with us. (both laugh) So he went back to the hotel and wrote me a letter, and we corresponded. He-- FERNHEIMER: --this is the gentleman from Michigan. ROSE: Irving Ziger. FERNHEIMER: Irving Ziger? ROSE: Uh-huh. This is a long story. (laughs) And he in Michig-- I was a senior, he was a senior. We were out of school. Senior week was still to be in Michigan. He wrote me and asked me to come. And my mother talked--he talked to my mother, and, and I went to Michigan for senior week, had a lovely time. We wrote for years. Then I went to Mason County, Maysville, to teach music. FERNHEIMER: After you graduated. ROSE: And I stayed there a year and a half. They were paying me almost nothing. And I was dating men on the tobacco market, and mother didn' ; t like that, so-- And my sister, who wasn' ; t--who hadn' ; t gotten a degree, went to work in the war for Air Service Command in Dayton, and she was making more money than I was--(laughs)--and my mother didn' ; t like whom I was dating. And anyway, so I took the civil serv-- servi-- service exam, and I ace exams, always, so I got a job making more than Vivian was in, in Dayton, Ohio. We went to the Jewish community center the first night I was in Dayton. She was--had been there. I met some guys, and I had three dates as a result of that night. (laughter) And one of them was from Cleveland. And I said, " ; Oh, did you know Irv Ziger? ' ; Cause I met him in this way." ; And he went out with Stanley Rosen-- his name was Rosenberg at that time--and said, " ; There' ; s a cute new Jewish girl in town, and, and she knows Irv Ziger," ; who was Stan' ; s friend. I assumed-- Oh, he called me to go out. I assumed-- FERNHEIMER: --the boy you met? Do you remember his name? ROSE: Oh, no. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: He didn' ; t--he didn' ; t matter. (both laugh) He was--you d-- probably don' ; t know, but in those days you dated everybody who asked you until you got a ring on your finger. That was your major goal in life, to get married. What else could you do? You could teach school or you could get married? So-- FERNHEIMER: --you could probably have babies. That was also probably an option, but only after you got married, generally. ROSE: I--mostly it was afterwards. (laughs) Um, I told--I wrote to Irv--I was still corresponding with him, and saying I was going to Dayton to work for Service Command. He wrote back and said, " ; You' ; ll probably meet Stan Rosenberg. He' ; s one of Cleveland' ; s best." ; When Stan called me, I assumed Irv had written to him, too. He hadn' ; t. He just got this recommendation of a cute new Jewish girl in town. Well, eleven weeks later we got married. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: He was a, a nice boy from a Reform family, and he had good table manners, which lots of people didn' ; t, and it was a war. FERNHEIMER: So he--but he has no connection to the debating society, other than that you met the other guy-- ROSE: --through him. FERNHEIMER: --uh, uh, Zigert, uh-- ROSE: --Ziger. FERNHEIMER: --Ziger, Ziger, Irv Ziger-- ROSE: --um-hm. FERNHEIMER: --was the debater from the University of Michigan. Okay, now I can understand-- ROSE: --um-hm. FERNHEIMER: --how the debating society was a pretty important thing. ROSE: It really wasn' ; t, but it w-- it worked out nicely in my life. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And so you don' ; t remember the topics or anyone else, other than Larry Sherman, who debated. Were they d-- just--do you know if they debated other Hillel debating teams because they--? Were they allowed, or did they debate other non-Jewish groups? ROSE: I presume they did. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: The debate was a pretty big thing on the UK campus at that time. FERNHEIMER: Were there many societies who participated in debate at that time? Or was it f-- in the fraternities or sororities? Just--? ROSE: In the fraternity I never knew what they did. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. This is very interesting. I will--I' ; m going to do some research and follow up on this. (laughs) Um, can you tell me, uh, I guess-- ROSE: --Larry Sherman' ; s son is in town still, Harold. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And he plays music. ROSE: Yes. Larry did, too. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, were, were there other organizations you were involved with, or did Hillel take up all of your time? ROSE: There were even honoraries in music who didn' ; t invite me. In fact, my Gentile friends said, " ; If, if you' ; re not inviting Harriet, we' ; re not joining." ; FERNHEIMER: So, different from your experience from high school. ROSE: Yes. Well, I didn' ; t tell you about my first year of college. FERNHEIMER: No. Tell me. ROSE: At Brenau College there were only six Jewish girls, and none of them-- FERNHEIMER: --this was in Georgia. ROSE: --came from my kind of Jews. FERNHEIMER: So they weren' ; t Reform. They were-- ROSE: --no. I was rushed by several sororities. I assumed everybody knew I was Jewish. My name was Abraham. And there was a girl I' ; d graduated from high school with there. Uh, I loved Alpha Gamma Delta, and they loved me, and they invited me to join. FERNHEIMER: This is-- ROSE: --and the next day they uninvited me, because you had to say you believed in Jesus Christ as your savior, and I wouldn' ; t say that. So I was in a--I was welcome with them, and they really sincerely did make me welcome at everything except sorority functions. But nobody. Well, in high school I didn' ; t--nobody was still my friend. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: They were still my friends, but I' ; d had this experience over and over. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And-- FERNHEIMER: And that sorority experience, that was at UK or that was in Georgia? ROSE: U-- no, that was in Georgia. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: At UK, I never went near sororities. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And couldn' ; t have if I' ; d wanted to. That was pre-title anything. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And we were, uh-- I was still pretty. I dated a lot. FERNHEIMER: Jewish? Non-Jewish? Did it matter? ROSE: Both. FERNHEIMER: D-- was that a distinction you made when it--when you were dating? Did it ma-- ROSE: --no, and my p-- my parents didn' ; t, either. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: In fact-- FERNHEIMER: --so the tobacco men that your mom didn' ; t like in Maysville, it was that they did tobacco, th-- not that they were not Jewish. ROSE: It, it was just as--they were without their wives, and-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --and, uh, things happened. Um, there was a graduate student who was Jewish, and we had a romance. But as I said, you dated everybody who asked you. There was no such thing as going steady in those times. In fact, he went--he got to be very famous. He was a musician, and he was awarded something big three or four years ago. And I looked him up on Google and called him up. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What' ; s his name? ROSE: His name was Marvin Rabin. And I thought he was coming through the telephone, he was so glad to hear from me. And we were, at that point, ninety and ninety-three. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: He said, " ; Well, I' ; ve got to see you." ; I said, " ; You must be kidding. I don' ; t travel anymore." ; He said, " ; Well, I' ; m coming to Lexington," ; and he did. FERNHEIMER: Where was--where did he live? Where did he travel from? ROSE: Uh, Madison. FERNHEIMER: Wisconsin? ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: Yeah. He had his son bring him down here. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And that was just three years ago? Four years ago. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Three years? ROSE: Yeah, he died last year. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry to hear that. But-- ROSE: It was lovely. FERNHEIMER: To see him. And so he was here during that time, as well. He was at UK. ROSE: Yes, and with Depression, dating meant maybe you went to, uh, Wing' ; s Tea House. FERNHEIMER: Where was that? ROSE: It was downtown. It was the only Chinese restaurant. It had terrible food, but we didn' ; t know it. We thought it was great. And it was the grandfather of the Wing now that has a restaurant. He fed lots of boys from the east who, who were broke, at that time, and he even allowed them to take their dates there, have dinner, and Marvin was one of those. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. Wing' ; s? Wing' ; s? How is it spelled? W-i-n-g? ROSE: Uh-huh. Wing' ; s Tea House. FERNHEIMER: And where' ; s the restaurant now that the grandson owns? ROSE: I' ; m not sure where it is. It was on the, on, uh, the beltline for a long time, but down--it was--it was on the second floor of a building at the corner of Main Street and Upper-- FERNHEIMER: --uh-huh. ROSE: --South, when I was allowed to go there. But you said did it matter whether they were Jewish or not. When a Jewish boy from the synagogue invited me to go to the movies-- FERNHEIMER: --the synagogue, not the temple. ROSE: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --I said, " ; I' ; ll have to ask my mother." ; And my mother asked my Aunt Betty, because the family was--every, every--they were nosy to every degree. And then Betty said, " ; Oh, Hilda, you don' ; t want her to get mixed up with those kids." ; FERNHEIMER: And was it because they were more rel-- ROSE: --Orthodox. FERNHEIMER: More religious. ROSE: You do know that there was a time after Reform Jews came here and got established when the Jews from Eastern Europe began to come that never the twain met. FERNHEIMER: Right. And that was true here in Lexington, as well. ROSE: Oh, boy. It was very true. FERNHEIMER: So the only time you asked your mother for permission about dating was about a boy in the synagogue, as opposed to someone who wasn' ; t Jewish-- ROSE: --he was the first boy who ever invited--well, no, a Gentile boy that had taken me to the movies before that. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Oh. But that wasn' ; t an issue. That wasn' ; t something you needed to ask your mom-- ROSE: --he came--we went on the bus down to-- Well, he--it didn' ; t make any difference that he wasn' ; t, wasn' ; t Jewish. We were children. FERNHEIMER: How old were you when you had your-- ROSE: --well, I was fourteen when this conversation with Aunt Betty took place. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: And probably I was ten or twelve. The movie that I went to with the Gentile boy on the bus-- FERNHEIMER: --yes. ROSE: --was Dracula. For years I spent--I was under the seat most of the time, ' ; cause it was so scary, and for years I slept with a blanket over my throat. I should never have gone to that movie. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Uh, um-- So did you continue to go to the movies on your dates in college? Was that also part of it, that--? ROSE: That' ; s probably all we did, uh, and then we went to dances. FERNHEIMER: Dances. And so-- ROSE: --uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: --you talked a little bit about the dances. The dances were organized by Hillel? Organized by the temple, but they took-- ROSE: --organized by the temple. Somebody played the piano and we danced. FERNHEIMER: And it was mostly the kids from the university who would go-- ROSE: --and Transy. FERNHEIMER: --and Transy, who would go over. And so-- ROSE: --and the-- FERNHEIMER: --how did the temple reach out to the Hillel students? Did they ha-- was-- ROSE: --uh, we probably had a rabbi who, who, uh, who got some of his salary, maybe, from Hillel. FERNHEIMER: So he was part of this national-- ROSE: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --organization. Do you remember who the rabbi was then? No. ROSE: I know who the--all the rabbis were, but which--well, that was still-- FERNHEIMER: --which one-- ROSE: --Grafman. FERNHEIMER: It was still Grafman. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Okay. So, um-- Wow. I guess how would you--this is kind of a big question, but how would you say your time at UK--and you have quite a bit of time at UK, uh, in different capacities--impacted your Jewish identity? ROSE: It didn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Not at all. ROSE: No. I--my Jewish identity was established at the temple. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: That was-- My husband and I were very active in the temple. I taught Sunday school from the time I was fifteen. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: I sang in the choir all the time, until I left here. And I belonged. I still am an ardent temple member, not goer. I, I go to things that interest me now. But one of my earliest memories was my mother was program chairman for sisterhood. We four little girls were dressed in boyel, and doing a, a dance called the Four Seasons. I was spring. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Who were the other girls? Who-- ROSE: The ones in my Sunday school class. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. Wow. So temple really was the big forma-- forma-- formative experience. ROSE: Yes, it was, and it--it was our Jewish identity. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: It-- Everybody-- Our parents had some Jewish friends, but not, not first-class Gentiles. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What does that mean? ROSE: Not the horsey set, or-- FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: Although my friends had been the children of the horsey set. When I got to high school they weren' ; t anymore. FERNHEIMER: They weren' ; t the--the--well, they weren' ; t your friends, or they--? ROSE: They weren' ; t my friends. FERNHEIMER: I see. So up until high school it was-- ROSE: --when--then you-- FERNHEIMER: --there was-- ROSE: --when we began to be nubile, uh, class took over, religious class. We were probably-- We certainly were not rich, but even the rich Jews' ; children were s-- they were street friendships, not, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --like acquaintances. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. So you talked a little bit about anti-Semitism in high school. Did you have any of those experiences at UK, as well? ROSE: Really not. FERNHEIMER: Um, so it sounds like the temple took you off campus when you were at UK. How would you describe Jewish life in Lexington at that time? ROSE: As far as I was concerned, it was lovely. I dated everybody. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, what would you say-- What advice, I guess, would you give to Jewish students who are enrolled at UK today? ROSE: Well, quite different a-advice. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. ROSE: And I wouldn' ; t have to give it to them. I mean, there, there is a Jewish society here now. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Um-- ROSE: --I thought when I was young, uh, if they were Jewish, they were okay. I didn' ; t-- How can I say this? They didn' ; t have to be smart or mannerly or anything. They were just like a member of the family. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And do you feel differently now? ROSE: Yes, I' ; m very selective. (both laugh) Of course I am. FERNHEIMER: And-- ROSE: --as a--as a matter of fact, all my friends, my real friends, are Jewish, but my scars from those early days didn' ; t begin to go away until graduate school, I guess. FERNHEIMER: Really? ROSE: I always let people know quickly that I was Jewish, ' ; cause I didn' ; t want to be hurt by anything they said. FERNHEIMER: Mm. So you' ; ve talked a little bit about your relationship, or the fact that Rabbi Grafman was the rabbi during this very formative period for you, um, and in your earlier interview you mentioned you were very fond of him, and actually you did-- ROSE: --oh, very. FERNHEIMER: --to-- today, as well. Could you tell me a little bit more about your relationship with him, and maybe provide a kind of character sketch of him? ROSE: Character sketch of him-- He was-- He, he didn' ; t allow himself to be dictated to by the powers that be at temple, although he left--when he left, he left because of money, and when he left in ' ; 42 there wasn' ; t any money, but he could--he went to Birmingham, and stayed for the rest of his life. Every--well, I can' ; t say everybody adored him, but those of us--uh, the kids adored him. And he and his lovely wife had good friends. They would' ; ve been between my f-- parents' ; generation and mine in age. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: He was, uh-- He talked about Nazism before anybody knew what was happening in Germany. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: In 1937, he was talking about it. FERNHEIMER: How did he know, or did he have family? ROSE: I don' ; t know. Maybe from union, the union, uh, or CCAR. You know what that is? FERNHEIMER: CCAR? ROSE: Central Conference of American Rabbis. FERNHEIMER: C-- Rabbis, okay, yes, I do know. ROSE: I don' ; t know how he knew, but, uh, he was-- W-we knew at the temple what was happening at the temple in Germany-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --because of him. Maybe for other reasons, too. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Were there--was there activism, uh, temple on behalf, or in support, or, um, is it just something that you kind of knew about, or--? ROSE: We knew about it. Uh, my father had a dairy, but--he was in the dairy business. And they--when the Germans could leave, he brought a German family here. He provided employment for, for them. FERNHEIMER: Was he the sponsor? I know the-- ROSE: --yes, he was the sponsor. FERNHEIMER: And what family? Do you remember who it was? No. Were they--they were Jewish, I assume? ROSE: Oh, yes. And there were a number of refugee families that came here. FERNHEIMER: Mm. Um, did he talk very much about his attitudes about race relations or segregation while he was rabbi? ROSE: At that point, I don' ; t think any, anything went on, went out about, uh-- I don' ; t think there was a problem about the blacks, the colored people. FERNHEIMER: In the ' ; 40s. ROSE: Then. My husband was very much involved in race relations. He brought, um, the Urban League to Lexington. He was one of the people who, who wanted things to be different. He also won the brotherhood award for the National Conference of Christians and Jews. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. In what year? This is-- ROSE: --well, it was the year before he died. Uh-- Eighty-four. FERNHEIMER: Eighty-four. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And that' ; s Stan, right? ROSE: Yeah. He was a very civic man. He did--all his do-gooding was public. Mine was private with students and faculty. FERNHEIMER: In, um, in a recent story in the Forward, um-- ROSE: --yes. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: --you talked a little bit about your experiences with your husband, and-- ROSE: --um-hm. FERNHEIMER: --uh, the story, for those who would want to look it up, is by Josh Nathan-Kazis, " ; Which Side Were We ON? Kentucky Slavery, Mine Wars, and Segre-- uh, Segregation." ; And he talked a little bit about a situation with an African American family, um-- ROSE: --that was our rabbi at that time, uh, Leffler. FERNHEIMER: Leffler. ROSE: And, uh, a professor at the university named Sedler. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. And in that article, Nathan Kazis talks about the way the issue divided the temple, um, and, of course, how your husband was--helped bring, uh, the Urban League chapter into the city. And he talked about a party that you hosted that was an integrated party. ROSE: Yep. FERNHEIMER: And I was wondering, could you share some details about that? He says--and he quotes you--" ; I served wine punch." ; (laughter) But he said it was the first integrated party that you attended. Were, were there-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --other integrated social functions in the city-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --at the time? And this was in-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --what year? Nineteen sixty-three? Four? ROSE: I don' ; t really remember the year. At this point, years get all mixed up in, in my life. (laughs) Um, Rabbi-- FERNHEIMER: --I understand ROSE: --Rabbi Leffler was here for quite a long time. FERNHEIMER: And he was the rabbi after Milton? ROSE: N-- oh, no, there have been FERNHEIMER: Or there' ; s, there' ; s several in between. ROSE: Several in between. But he stayed a long time. Longer than we really wanted him to stay. (both laugh) Um-- FERNHEIMER: --and why is that? Th-- why did he stay longer, and why is it that the congregation was ready for him--? Was it the congregation that was ready for him to go-- ROSE: --oh, yes. FERNHEIMER: --or--? Okay. ROSE: Oh, yes. ' ; Cause he wasn' ; t-- (laughs) He wa-- he was not a very good rabbi. I don' ; t really-- And I don' ; t remember really why. I just know he, he was a pain in the neck a lot of the time. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: Um-- How did we get to that? FERNHEIMER: We were talking about the-- ROSE: --oh. FERNHEIMER: --party that you hosted. ROSE: The party was-- FERNHEIMER: Who did you invite? H-how--? ROSE: It--the mem-- there were people who sponsored--who were board members of the Urban League. They, they brought ' ; em-- FERNHEIMER: And they were African American, or they were white? ROSE: Some were, were African American, but the ones who wouldn' ; t--mostly didn' ; t come. Their wives certainly didn' ; t. They, when they were organizing the Urban League to get here, they, they put people on the board, invited people on the board, who were l-- first-class Gentiles. (laughs) I always call them the horsey set. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: The, uh, civic leaders, so to speak. FERNHEIMER: So wealthy whites? ROSE: Some wealthy. I guess they were wealthy. At that point money seemed not very important. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: Um, they were--would belong to Idle Hour Country Club, some of them, or Lexington Country Club, where Jews weren' ; t, you know-- FERNHEIMER: Allowed. ROSE: Don' ; t you know that story? FERNHEIMER: Which story? ROSE: The story about how we had a country club, and they bought it out from under us? FERNHEIMER: No, I don' ; t. Tell me about that. ROSE: Okay. FERNHEIMER: There was a Jewish country club? ROSE: It wasn' ; t Jewish, but Lexington Country Club was the social club. Jews were not invited. Um, there--also, Catholics were not terribly welcome. And there was a, a ty-- a gambler from Florida who lived here with his wife who was Catholic. They turned her and him down for membership in Lexington Country Club, so he bought her a country club and called it Ashland Country Club. It was on the--you know where Idle Hour is now? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: That was Ashland. And many Jews belonged, including my family. And lots of us at that time lived in Fairway. All of us. Us white Jews--excuse that, that horrible thinking, but we--they, they belonged to c-- the country club and played golf there. FERNHEIMER: And who, who else belongs were--it' ; s not just Jews, but there were Catholics there? ROSE: Oh, lots, lots of people. Um-- FERNHEIMER: --but no one of color, no African Americ-- ROSE: --n-- well, nobody b--- Nobody of color belonged anywhere-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --at that point. Um, during the war, the-- FERNHEIMER: --the first one? ROSE: Two. FERNHEIMER: The second one. ROSE: I, uh--Lexington Country Club got in financial trouble. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. ROSE: And they admitted some what I call second-class Gentiles. After the war, they wanted to get rid of them, or they didn' ; t want to belong to them anymore. So the horsey set, first class Gentiles, bought--uh, the, the gambler had died. I can' ; t remember his name, but it' ; ll come to me. So they bought I-- uh, what was then Ashland Country Club, and simply didn' ; t renew the membership for the Jews and the--and some other people. There was a man, a builder, who said to my fath-- his name was Ed Gilson--he was dro-- his membership was dropped, as well as ours, and all the Jews. Um-- FERNHEIMER: --so there were quite a number of Jews who were members at Ashland. ROSE: Yes, lots. Um-- FERNHEIMER: --how many families, would you say? ROSE: Forty, fifty. FERNHEIMER: Families? Wow. ROSE: And Ed Gilson lived in Fairway. In fact, he had built most of Fairway. And he, he bought--he built a road from his house over to Ashland Club so he wouldn' ; t have to even go to Main Street. He could just walk through to play golf. He was dropped. He said to my father, " ; Izzy, where are us Jews and sons of bitches gonna play golf? I know why dropped you, ' ; cause you' ; re Jewish. I must just be a plain sonofabitch." ; FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Wow. And what year was that? Do you remember? ROSE: Um-- FERNHEIMER: After the war? ROSE: Yes, after the war. And Stan and I-- Were we here yet? It was-- We came back in ' ; 49, so it was in the early ' ; 50s. We weren' ; t members, but my father and mother were. We didn' ; t have any money. FERNHEIMER: And that, that was before Stan started his business, or when Stan started his business? ROSE: His business came later. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, so the party came later, then, too. ROSE: Yes, the party was in the ' ; 50s, some-- No, it was in the ' ; 60s, ' ; cause we were in our new house. FERNHEIMER: And where was your house? ROSE: Um, 712 Beechmont Road. It' ; s my son' ; s house now. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --and tell me about the party. ROSE: Stan came home from a meeting and said, " ; We' ; ve hired a, a, a director for the, uh, Urban League, and we--uh, some of us thought we should have a party to welcome him. And none of the--nobody volunteered. None of the whites volunteered. Would you do it?" ; And I said, " ; Of course." ; So we had a Sunday afternoon reception. My, my maid told me on the day of the party--she knew we were going to do it--that she--she said, " ; You don' ; t know that I' ; m, uh, a cousin t-to Harry Sykes' ; s wife, Gwendolyn." ; And I said no. Harry Sykes was a--the president of the Urban League. They' ; d asked Stan to be ; he said it should be a black man, a colored man, we said at those points. And so Harry Sykes would--who had been a pro basketball player, was the president of the Urban League. And I, of course, invited--I don' ; t know who was invited, ' ; cause Stan--they took care of who was invited, but certainly the--all the board members were, and their wives. None of the wives came. Some of the board members did. I--it was an integrated party. I had-- (laughs) And I said I served wine punch. FERNHEIMER: And what did--what did your other friends at temple think about you-- ROSE: --some of them came. They were involved in it. They n-- that was do-gooding, and it--and the temple was always--they were always do-gooders. They were rolling bandages during the war, and, and Stan and Charlie Schwartz, who was the--all those Yankees who came to join us were active in trying to find a--to integrate tow-- the town peacefully instead of the way other people were integrating, with great difficulty. FERNHEIMER: And what was the--how did they imagine that peaceful integration would take place? ROSE: Well, Stan went up and down Main Street to all the Jewish merchants, encouraging and--them to hire people on the floor who was col-- who were colored, not just janitors. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Was he successful? ROSE: And they did. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: They did. ROSE: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: And w-when did that happen, that they first started hiring--? ROSE: In the ' ; 60s, ' ; 50s and ' ; 60s. FERNHEIMER: So late ' ; 50s, early ' ; 60s. ROSE: Yeah, when-- FERNHEIMER: --before the national trend. ROSE: I don' ; t know when, when the national trend started, but we certainly knew that there were problems with integration. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: My son' ; s-- Rick was a senior in high school, maybe a junior when, uh, the schools were integrated. When would that have been? He was born in ' ; 45. FERNHEIMER: So early ' ; 60s? ROSE: He would, um-- Yeah, the early-- FERNHEIMER: --or late ' ; 50s? ROSE: --' ; 60s. FERNHEIMER: So-- ROSE: And it was a difficult time. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. ROSE: Our colored schools were not so bad, and when we--integration was very hard on people. Not many of the colored teachers went into--were integrated, and so the blacks students had all kinds of feelings, and the white students had all kinds of feelings. FERNHEIMER: So you said this--the, the teachers of color weren' ; t inc-- weren' ; t part of the integration? So-- ROSE: --some of them were, but not-- Black students did better with black teachers. The teachers said, " ; You behave or I' ; ll tell your mother," ; you know. And, and they didn' ; t have the discipline problems in the black schools that the blacks created in the white schools. FERNHEIMER: What, what do you mean they created? How, how did--? Tell me a little bit about that. ROSE: They, they-- I don' ; t think the black students res-- for the most part, respected the white teachers. They didn' ; t feel at home. They were miserable. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And there were many, many discipline problems, and white teachers who left. FERNHEIMER: And this was in Lexington. ROSE: In the early ' ; 60s. FERNHEIMER: In--so right about the same time that you were having this party-- ROSE: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --was when integration was taking place in the schools. ROSE: Yep. FERNHEIMER: And you, your--the friends that you had from temple came to the party. ROSE: Some of them. FERNHEIMER: So was there a difference in attitude towards social integration in terms of-- ROSE: --there wasn' ; t-- FERNHEIMER: --shop-keeping or education, or--? ROSE: There wasn' ; t any social integration. It just didn' ; t happen. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Um, I want to come back to Rabbi Grafman, if you' ; ll allow me, for a minute, ' ; cause he was--he came to be pretty famous in his own right after he left Lexington-- ROSE: --yes, he did. FERNHEIMER: --uh, because of the letter that the clergymen wrote to Martin Luther King. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Um, did you keep in touch with him after he, uh, moved to Alabama? F: Um, can you hold on-- ROSE: --for a while. F: --one second? FERNHEIMER: Hang on one second. F: I need to-- I' ; m not sure how the card switch-- ROSE: --in fact-- FERNHEIMER: Hold on one second. We' ; re gonna switch cards. ROSE: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Sorry about that. F: I thought that it was supposed to go straight into-- FERNHEIMER: I thought so, too. ROSE: You' ; re going to edit this, aren' ; t you? FERNHEIMER: There' ; ll be a little bit of editing. ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: You' ; ll have a chance to look at it, as well. ROSE: I' ; m sorry--I' ; m--you know, I' ; m saying what I think, and-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah, and I' ; m glad. (both laugh) Uh, I' ; m really grateful for it, and it' ; s a difficult period of time to talk about, so it' ; s hard for me to ask questions, too, uh, especially since, you know, this is our first meeting out of the field. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- ROSE: --well, that' ; s all right. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- F: Okay. ROSE: And I' ; m being as honest as I possibly can, remembering what I remember. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Are we good? F: Yeah. You--I switched the cards. For some reason it, it didn' ; t continue-- FERNHEIMER: --so do you think we lost some, or no? F: I' ; m not one hundred-- I was just looking at it, and then I looked up and it was blinking, so I don' ; t think we lost anything. FERNHEIMER: Okay. All right. ROSE: You asked if we kept in touch with Rabbi Grafman. Yes, in, in the beginning, especially. His wife developed tuberculosis, and he knew exactly whom to call to get her admitted to the Julius Marks Sanitarium here. So, uh--and then our temple was always involved in the union meetings, and at one in the temple here there' ; s a picture of our former rabbis altogether at, at one of the conventions. And when we had a--our hundredth anniversary-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --some of them--well, I remember from the seventy-fifth, he came in, he said, " ; I don' ; t know where the years went, but when I left--his parents was--Iz and Helen were decorating with flowers for the congregational dinner, and I came in and Iz and Helen are still decorating with flowers for, for the dinner we' ; re having." ; FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: It was, uh-- He loved us, and we loved him. Uh, he was part of us. Can I say that? FERNHEIMER: Was--yeah. Was he--what, what made him--I mean, there' ; s a ver-- a real warmth that-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --in the way that you talk about him, and-- ROSE: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --I' ; m, I' ; m trying to get at some of the tangibles that, that helped to create that kind of warmth. ROSE: Well, he established the youth choir, and he was very lucky, ' ; cause there were some good voices. And, and we got such praise, and we were-- FERNHEIMER: --did you perform publicly, outside of the temple? ROSE: Oh, no. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: But we did the high holy days. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And it was a great part of our warmth of feeling, of belonging. He was wonderful with the youth, with-- And he had very good friends with a y-young marriage at that point. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: He was just a very warm guy. And very ethical. Somebody for us to look up to. FERNHEIMER: So when he--when he signed the letter to Doc-- Dr. Marth-- Martin Luther King, would you say that the kinds of attitudes that he and the other clergy people expressed were shared by a lot of the members of the temple at the time? ROSE: Not a lot. FERNHEIMER: Not a lot. ROSE: They were shared, but if you read what I said in that, uh, foreword-- FERNHEIMER: --I did, I did. ROSE: --it depended on what kind of threat they were fee-- feeling. And Stan felt no threat from--in his business. FERNHEIMER: Right. It was a very powerful quote, actually, about-- ROSE: --whose ox was being gored. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And-- ROSE: --um-hm. FERNHEIMER: --and about the, the way that Stan' ; s work with the junk business wasn' ; t--it didn' ; t--it wasn' ; t impacted by segregation in the same way that someone who was a property owner, who earned their livelihood-- ROSE: --right. FERNHEIMER: --that, that stood out-- ROSE: --uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: to me from that article. Uh, and so would you say that--I, I, I don' ; t want to put words in your mouth. Describe a little bit more that kind of s-- the, the ways that you perceived segregation impacting the Jewish community. ROSE: I don' ; t think it impacted it much. I don' ; t think-- I don' ; t think-- Well, many things were impacting the Jewish community at that time. Uh, the malls were coming, so that what, what had been an up and down Main Street Jewish affair, many businesses went out there or left, went out there or left. Bernie Miller' ; s is the only one still downtown. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --Rosenberg' ; s, also. ROSE: Oh. FERNHEIMER: Right? The jeweler? ROSE: Oh. Well, yeah, one of ' ; em. There were two Rosenberg families. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I have heard that story. Right, one Rosenberg is still there. Uh, so, okay, so the malls were impacting, uh, Jewish businesses? ROSE: Yes, and great changes were occurring. People were not really very worried about the blacks-- FERNHEIMER: --and-- ROSE: --except where they made a fuss. FERNHEIMER: Who made a fuss? Who' ; s the " ; they" ; there? ROSE: Uh, the blacks, the organizations that took up. FERNHEIMER: And by " ; fuss" ; you mean--? What kind of fuss were they making? ROSE: Well, Stan was making a fuss. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, it sounds like Stan was successful in his fuss, if you' ; re saying-- ROSE: --oh, he was. FERNHEIMER: --they, they actually began to hire people of color in-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --salespeople-- ROSE: --a few. FERNHEIMER: --positions. ROSE: A few. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember the stores that were the first to hire? ROSE: Meyers was one. But Alec, who had been the janitor and the, the helper with parties was put on the floor to sell. FERNHEIMER: And did he--did--Alec is a man? And did he do well? ROSE: I have no idea. (laughs) God. After--when I got my PhD, I invited some of the people from the university, and some of, of our close friends to a party, and Alec was there serving. And one of the girls in the graduate program really made a pass at Alec, who was a little drunk, and-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --and one of our friends took him home, because that wasn' ; t gonna do. W-- we weren' ; t saying-- Lexington was not ready for interracial dating. FERNHEIMER: That was in what year? In the s-- in-- ROSE: --I got my PhD in ' ; 64. FERNHEIMER: So in the middle of the ' ; 60s. So that, that wasn' ; t--it wasn' ; t ready at that time-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --in your opinion. And-- ROSE: --in my opinion, and in everybody' ; s opinion. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So--but at that--by that point it was more common to have-- Were, were there other people of color at the party, or only Alec, who was serving? ROSE: I don' ; t think there was anybody except Alec. FERNHEIMER: And this party was before or after the Urban League party that you hosted? ROSE: Much before. FERNHEIMER: Much before. Okay. So the Urban League party was maybe the later ' ; 60s. ROSE: If you, if you' ; re going to talk about integrated parties, the way they were integrated is the servants were black. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Do you think that hosting that integrated party impacted your relationships with other people in your social network? No? ROSE: We were always strange. (both laugh) You know, I went back to school when women didn' ; t go back to school. I-- The day I got invited to go into the doctoral program--as I said, I test marvelous, and the big--I didn' ; t realize it at the time, but they were trying to establish a, a program in counseling psychology. And I thought I was so lucky they invited me t-to not get a master' ; s, to go on and get my PhD. I now know--I was grateful then--I was the first PhD in counseling psychology, and they wanted that program to succeed, and they weren' ; t being charitable to me. I--they saw me-- They used me, in a sense. I--this I, I' ; ve just come to know. Writing my autobiography has done a great deal for me. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I imagine. When did you start writing your autobiography? ROSE: About four years ago. FERNHEIMER: And how close are you to finishing? ROSE: I' ; m ready for it to be finished. Uh, the person who is to--whom I have hired to put it together has had various things happen in her life, and actually I looked at our contract, and I signed it two years ago, and she' ; s had a knee operation, and-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, wow. ROSE: --a house that was sold, and one that-- bought, and, and various things to distract her, and right now we' ; re in a distraction period, so I don' ; t know when it' ; s coming out, if it' ; s going to. FERNHEIMER: I imagine working on that has helped you reflect back on some things. ROSE: Oh, loads. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- ROSE: --if I-- I really should' ; ve brushed up on, on, on dates and things before I came, but--except I didn' ; t know what we were gonna talk about. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, if you' ; ll allow us to, to revisit with you, then I imagine we can come back and get some of those dates, as well. ROSE: All right. FERNHEIMER: Um, we' ; ve touched a little bit on a couple of these closing questions that I have, um, about kind of your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual. I asked a version of that thinking about your childhood, but I guess I' ; m more curious about kind of, in retrospect, your, your most vivid memory of Jewish life. ROSE: Well, our temple was, uh, was led by a, a series of men, always--almost always men until recently, who made a commitment to be on the board first, then to be, uh, chosen to be treasurer, secretary, first vice president--no, second vice president, first president, and then president. They made a commitment for twelve years of their lives. We were their handmaidens. FERNHEIMER: The women. ROSE: The wives. And, and we went to--we did everything together. Our social life was combined-- Well, they-- I, I--this comes out so badly, but socially we belonged to each other, and we were the people who took the responsibility of managing the temple. We didn' ; t have, uh, an administrator. When you were the treasurer you did the work, and when you were the secretary you did the work, or your wife did. And so it was more than the temple itself ; it was our lives w-- were that twelve years, uh, or fourteen years of togetherness. FERNHEIMER: And so you socialized mainly with the other people who were in-- ROSE: --people who were in, involved in the same-- FERNHEIMER: --positions of-- ROSE: --interests, um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Those leadership positions. ROSE: And when-- Harold Baker was one of those, and when talk--people talked about when the federation came here-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --he said--and he was wise--" ; I don' ; t want them, because there, there are not enough leaders." ; And our leaders had always come from within. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And, and there wasn' ; t enough leadership to choose from. FERNHEIMER: When did federation come to Lexington? ROSE: Well-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m trying to remember, as well. It had two different names. There was Central Kentucky-- ROSE: --Central Kentucky, yeah. And that was a, an attempt to establish an integration between the synagogue and the temple, and, and that wasn' ; t ever going to work then. So the Central Kentucky Jewish Association came. And it--a lot of it had to do with Zionism. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: It-- FERNHEIMER: --tell me about that. ROSE: Nobody has told you about that? (laughs) FERNHEIMER: About Zionism? In connection to the split between the temple and the synagogue? ROSE: The--well, the-- FERNHEIMER: No, actually, that' ; s a genuine question in terms of--I, I-- Tell me about the role that Zionism played in that split. ROSE: It was not-- It, it didn' ; t play any role in the split, but it play, played a great role in the attempt to get together, uh, to work together. Hada-- when Hadassah came, that was part of it. FERNHEIMER: And when did, when did--do you recall when Hadassah came? I' ; ll-- ROSE: --in the ' ; 40s, ' ; 30s. FERNHEIMER: And they--and, and Zionism was part of the mission. ROSE: Uh, well, Hadassah is a Zionist organization. FERNHEIMER: Yes. ROSE: And there wasn' ; t any move to Zionism before that. FERNHEIMER: So they brought the ideas about Zionism with them. ROSE: And where did they come from? Some other place. Yankees. FERNHEIMER: So, I mean, within the Reform movement, Zionism was a dividing factor itself. ROSE: And I don' ; t know how things ran at the synagogue. I really don' ; t. But I know that the integration of the temple, the management of the temple, was a--women were integral in many ways. They didn' ; t have the offices, but they ran the place. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And sisterhood was very important. FERNHEIMER: And were many members of the sisterhood also members of Hadassah, or was that-- ROSE: --some of them were. I can' ; t quote-- FERNHEIMER: Well, i-it' ; s interesting that you bring that up, because that' ; s roughly around the same time, right? The late ' ; 60s, with race relations, and integration in the city, and that' ; s also around the time of the ' ; 67 war, and, and that had a big impact-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --uh, on a national level. I don' ; t know what-- ROSE: --well, it--the war had a big im-- impact everywhere. FERNHEIMER: Zionism, all right. That' ; s, uh, another question we--if I' ; m lucky enough to have a second opportunity, we' ; ll, we' ; ll talk more about that, uh, unless there' ; s--is there anything else you want to add about that right now? ROSE: Well, I was a member of the American Council for Ju-- Judaism, which was formed as an--in opposition to the state of Israel, because it, its principle was that American Jews were going to have to pay, not money, but the positions of American Jews was going to be a-- badly affected. And if there was ever anything that was demonstra-- demonstrating that, it is the situation now, right now, with the war, whether we will have that peace treaty with Iran, and what' ; s going on in our Congress, and whether our Con-- Senators, with large rep-- with large Jewish representation, rep-- representing large Jewish voters, large numbers, who are considering whether they should vote in favor of that treaty, and, and the Netanyahu and his opinions-- FERNHEIMER: --you' ; re speaking of the treaty with Iran. ROSE: --yes--what--and I' ; m speaking of its being exactly what formed the opposition to the state of Israel. FERNHEIMER: So y-- and, and Zionism came into this conversation now as we were talking a bit about the split, and so would you characterize one of the congregations as more or less Zionist, or--? ROSE: Well, the synagogue and--was certainly more Zionist, but there were, uh, temple members who were very large in the Zionist movement, not in-- FERNHEIMER: --how was-- ROSE: --not in APAC, but, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And was that divisive within the temple? ROSE: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: We didn' ; t care. Nobody cared much what, uh, what you thought. Evelyn Thompson said to me, " ; You' ; re either with or us against us." ; FERNHEIMER: And where would--where did she stand? ROSE: Oh, she was an ardent Zionist. FERNHEIMER: Non-Zionist. ROSE: Uh-huh, a Hadassah lady. I never joined Hadassah. FERNHEIMER: Wait, she was a non-Zionist Hadassah lady? ROSE: Oh, no. She was a, an ardent Zionist. FERNHEIMER: Okay, that' ; s-- I wanted to make sure that I understood that correctly. Um, so I guess you started to talk a little bit about the situation in--contemporary situation. I wonder if you can talk about how you think things have changed in the Jewish community during the long period that you' ; ve been here. ROSE: Oh, it' ; s so different. So different. And part of it, I realize as I talk about it, uh, is that we were a Southern village-- FERNHEIMER: --Lexington. ROSE: --and after the war, people were--discovered us. FERNHEIMER: The second war? World War Two? ROSE: Yeah. The second war. And they came. And Jews from the East came. And they--many of them joined the temple because the temple had something to offer them, but in the process they changed the temple, too. FERNHEIMER: How so? ROSE: It was--well, it' ; s--it happened with Reform Judaism and conservative everywhere. It' ; s not exclusive in Lexington, but we thought it was as it was happening. Um, there really should just be one conservative synagogue now. There' ; s so much-- FERNHEIMER: --here in Lexington? ROSE: Yeah. There, uh-- They integrated so much that there are very few people who think the things I think. My temple is, is-- It still says it' ; s reform, but it' ; s not reform in, in--not classical reform. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: Nor, I think, is the shul what it was when everybody over there kept kosher, and everybody was--didn' ; t work on--walk on Shabbos and things like that. The, uh, the mores have changed. The rabbinate have changed. FERNHEIMER: And so it sounds very different. Uh, you' ; ve described a stark difference such that you had to ask your mother for permission to date someone-- ROSE: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --from the synagogue-- ROSE: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --and if I unders-- ROSE: --to, to go out to the movies in a car. He just happened to be from the synagogue. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Ah, okay. So it was, it was more the dating than the-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --the fact that he was from synagogue. ROSE: If--there wasn' ; t social integration much. FERNHEIMER: Between the two congregations. ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: But now I hear you saying--and correct me if I' ; m misunderstanding--that, that there' ; s not such a stark difference between-- ROSE: There isn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: And so that' ; s a big change. Um-- ROSE: --and-- FERNHEIMER: --anything--? ROSE: Even our prayer books. Course, I don' ; t know what goes on at the synagogue, but I know that our prayer books are, are different from what were the prayer books when I grew up. FERNHEIMER: How are they different? What do they--? ROSE: They-- They have taken the framework that was cla-- classical Judaism and pushed it over in the corner, and now it' ; s--the music is very different. The, uh, the creation of the Jewish camps-- FERNHEIMER: --summer camps? ROSE: --yeah, summer camps for young people, and guitar music, and songs that, that the, uh, union of American Hebrew congregations created, and I know why they did it, in, in self-preservation, and they have done it, and it' ; s the outgrowth of the camp movement to keep young people involved. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: It' ; s all very different. FERNHEIMER: Mm. How would you say your Jewishness is different from that of your parents? Speaking of difference. ROSE: It' ; s much more--it' ; s more intellectual. FERNHEIMER: Hm. ROSE: And that' ; s what attracts me to Judaism: its intellectual qualities. My parents were Jewish because they were born Jewish, and, in their custom, their families were Jewish, and that was totally their-- They weren' ; t, weren' ; t educated into thought. My father had a sixth-grade education. My mother had an eighth-grade education. I was the first, second member of my family, of my--I' ; m the oldest grandchild. One uncle went to college before me. I was the first one to, in this generation, to get a master' ; s degree, uh, and I' ; m the only PhD-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --uh-- FERNHEIMER: If you have children, how does your relationship to Jewish identity and practice compare to theirs? ROSE: Well, both my sons married Gentiles, first. Um, the second--my second son' ; s second wife is Jewish, and she and I do fine. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: How would you say living here in Kentucky has impacted the way that you think about your relationship with Judaism? ROSE: I think had I lived in the--in-- I think the Gentiles made me a better Jew. FERNHEIMER: What-- ROSE: --they, they established that I was something different from them, and so, having been that, I went aggressively into my kind of Judaism. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And I wouldn' ; t be anything else, ever, now, or, or since, since I learned enough. FERNHEIMER: Is there anything else that I haven' ; t asked about that you' ; d like to share about Judaism, or being a Jew in Kentucky, or your experiences at UK? Anything that I missed that you' ; d like to get on the record? ROSE: No, I don' ; t think so. I like it. I like being a Jew. My kind of Jew. FERNHEIMER: Could you have been your kind of Jew outside of Kentucky? ROSE: Oh, I think so. It would' ; ve been more difficult. FERNHEIMER: Can you give me a brief des-- definition of your kind of Jew? ROSE: Well, first place, I' ; m not all wound up in, in, uh, in Israel. I think American Jews--Jews in America, the place of Jews in America, in the long run, politically, will suffer. Um--(coughs)--I like the influence we' ; ve had in most ways. Certainly I' ; m proud of the, uh, of the musici-- of the music contribution, and of the medical contribution, and, and-- Um, the fact that cr-- mostly we' ; re not in the criminal class. (coughs) I don' ; t know how to say all this. I like being a Southern Jew. I don' ; t want to be a Northern Jew. I don' ; t like Northern Jews. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What makes, what makes Southern Jews so special? And I guess, as part of that, Kentucky Jews? ROSE: What makes us so special? I think most of us were a credit to our people. Most of us. And, and a credit to Judaism. (coughs) Because we were so civilized. FERNHEIMER: And by " ; civilized," ; what do you mean? ROSE: Educated leaders in good causes. (coughs) Not looking down on, on the blacks, for instance, because I don' ; t think we did. There were--the others did, other people did, but we didn' ; t. (coughs) I-- I think--I used to think of Jews as all admirable people. I don' ; t think of anybody as honorable anymore. (laughs) I was prouder of Jews than I am now. And I don' ; t know if it' ; s because we have a twenty-four/seven press, and I know more about everybody than I used to know. I look at the, uh-- Jews, in my mind, were famous because of good things that they did, not on Wall Street. The more I come to know, we' ; re not different from other people, and Judaism has not made us different-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --which it should' ; ve done. And it' ; s in the honor, in, in what we study. I see more, uh, criminal activity. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: I don' ; t know what--if this m-makes any sense, and I don' ; t know if it' ; s just my age. FERNHEIMER: It sounds like the more, the more you--the more you know, the harder it is to love. (laughs) ROSE: Yes, it is. FERNHEIMER: Um-- Uh-- Um-- So that' ; s a real different place to end up than when, uh, asked you to talk about your kind of Jew. Uh, anything else that-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --you' ; d like to add? Well, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to let me ask you so many questions today. (laughs) Um, I really appreciate it. ROSE: You were feeling honored by my presence. You probably aren' ; t at this point. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Oh, that' ; s not true. Uh, I' ; m honored to have had the opportunity to talk with you and learn so much, um, and I thank you. I think-- ROSE: Um-hm. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections and Digital Programs, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh316_jk004_rose_ohm.xml 2015oh316_jk004_rose_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Title
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Harriet Rose, August 13, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Harriet Rose discusses her family and her ancestry. She grew up living in Lexington, and discusses her Jewish traditions and identity growing up. She went to Sunday school every Sunday growing up and was eventually confirmed at her temple, Adath Israel. High school was the first time that Rose realized that she was different because of her religion when she wasn't invited to certain clubs because she was Jewish. She discusses her college life at both Brenau College and the University of Kentucky, including her participation on the debate team, dating, and her experiences with discrimination in sororities. Rose discusses her and her husband's role in race relations in Lexington. Stan Rosenberg brought the Urban League to Lexington and won the brotherhood award from the National Conference of Christians and Jews. Rose and her husband hosted Lexington's first integrated dinner party.
Rose says that her Jewish identity was not impacted by her time at UK, but at the Temple. Rose and her husband were very active in their Temple, Adath Israel. Rose taught Sunday school at the Temple from the time she was 15 years old. Rose discusses the differences between the Temple and the Synagogue, the two Jewish congregations of Lexington.
Identifier
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2015oh316_jk004
Subject
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Kentucky--Social conditions
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
African Americans--Segregation
Civil rights movements--United States
Jews--Identity.
Religion
Worship (Judaism)
Anti-Semitism
Antisemitism
Discrimination.
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video