8 10 305 https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/370afa8ceb06c010e45dadc7916031b0.jpeg 069fec250cb26f462128853d920fcd33 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice W. Fernheimer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kate Shapira Latts Interview Keyword Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Holidays. Family histories. Childhood Jewish children OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh153_jk025 Interview with Kate Shapira Latts, May 24, 2016 2016oh153_jk025 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Alcohol industry. Bourbon whiskey Distillation. Distilleries--Kentucky Distillers. Family-owned business enterprises. Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Women in the whiskey industry Women--Employment. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Holidays. Family histories. Childhood Jewish children Kate Shapira Latts Janice W. Fernheimer 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253339721&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Growing up with the family business, Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Hello. Um, uh, today--for official purposes, today is May 24th, uh, 2016. My name is Janice Fernheimer. Kate Shapira Latts discusses her family and growing up in a family business. Her family runs Heaven Hill, and from an early age Latts was very proud and interested in her family's company. The family business was prevalent in all aspects of the Shapiras' lives. Kate conducted childhood science experiments on the alcohol yields of several types of wheat. Latts was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1971. Her mother is Ellen Shapira, her father is Max Shapira, and her brother is Andy Shapira. Andy Shapira ; Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Chattanooga (Tenn.) ; Chattanooga, Tennessee ; Civil War ; Ellen Shapira ; Family businesses ; Florida ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Max Shapira ; Paramount Foods ; University of Kentucky ; West Coast Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Childhood ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 38.244, -85.781 17 Heaven Hills Distilleries, Inc. 480 Jewish identity in childhood I wonder, can you talk a little bit about the ways that Jewishness figured into your life growing up? Latts discusses the influences that formed her Jewish identity and how it has shaped her life. She was very active in the National Council of Jewish Women's junior council leadership development program. She also attended Camp Birch Trail in Minong, Wisconsin. B'nai Brith Youth Organization (BBYO) ; Camp Birch Trail ; Chapel Hill ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Duke University ; Freeman Center ; Hadassah ; Hillel ; Israel ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish identity ; Jewishness ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Minong (Wis.) ; Minong, Wisconsin ; National Council of Jewish Women ; Neil Simon ; North Carolina ; Proctor and Camble ; Summer camps ; Wisconsin Childhood ; Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Recreation ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 46.096, -91.861 17 Camp Birch Trail in Minong, Wisconsin 968 Jewish family traditions I wonder if I can take you back a little bit to talk about kind of how your parents, um, in--in--shared Judaism with you. Latts discusses how her parents, Ellen and Max Shapira, shared Judaism with her. She tells stories of how her family used to celebrate Christmas every year. Latts says on the subject, &quot ; there was never a question of our Jewish identity. It was just a cultural thing that we did.&quot ; Latts discusses how, even though her large family all went to different synagogues, they would always celebrate the Jewish holidays together. Adath Jeshurun Synagogue (Louisville) ; Andy Shapira ; Christmas ; Ellen Shapira ; Family traditions ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; Jewish holidays ; Keneseth Israel Synagogue (Louisville) ; Kosher ; Max Shapira ; Reform Judaism ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; The Last Night at Ballyhoo ; Traditions ; United States Families. ; Family histories. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1656 Female role models Do you have any female role models in your family that, that you think of that helped you imagine who you might become? Latts discusses the cumulative experiences that influenced her aspirations and ambitions. One woman who inspired Latts was her aunt, also named Ellen Shapira (same name as Kate's mother), who had a meaningful career in the 1980s, a time when it was not the status quo to do so. Latts continues to discuss the social norms in our society today and society's view on women in the workplace. 1980s ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Brown-Forman Corporation ; Canada ; Center for Responsive Politics ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Chicago, Illinois ; Distilled spirits industry ; Duke University ; Family ; Female role models ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mary Berrazotto ; North America ; Social norms ; Trailblazing ; Washington (D.C.) ; Washington, D.C. ; Women in the workplace Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Childhood ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry ; Women--Employment. 37.809, -85.4669 17 Bardstown (Ky.) 2523 Work-life balance But to get back to your particular industry-- Latts discusses her role in her family's business, Heaven Hill, where she is the Vice President of Marketing. She says that she loves her job because it is very fast-paced and she deals with a wide variety of projects every day, from marketing issues to commercials that they shoot with the rapper 2 Chainz. She also discusses the social norms of women with careers and the dynamics of working with her family. 2 Chainz (Artist) ; Allan Latts ; Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Family businesses ; Family dynamics ; Hypnotiq ; Kentucky ; Lunazul ; Mexico ; New York ; Social norms ; Tequila ; Vodka ; Women in the workplace Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry ; Women--Employment. 17 3046 Jews in the bourbon industry Are there any industry legends or fables that you feel like would be useful for us to know about? Latts discusses an industry legend, Bill Samuels. Samuels started Maker's Mark and created a mystique and allure about the brand. Latts discusses the lack of racial diversity in Heaven Hill's management, which she attributes to the relatively small pool of eligible applicants in Louisville, Kentucky. Latts also discusses why there are so many Jewish people in the industry. African Americans ; Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Bill Goldring ; Bill Samuels ; Bourbon festivals ; Buffalo Trace Distillery. ; Chaplin family ; Diversity ; Fables ; Fireball ; Glazer family ; Industry legends ; Jews ; Kentucky ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Maker’s Mark Distillery ; Maria the Jewess ; New Orleans (La.) ; New Orleans, Louisiana ; New York ; Southern Wine and Spirits ; Texas Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish families. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 29.951, -90.07 17 New Orleans (La.) 3422 Accomplishments and advancement potential for women Um, switching gears a little bit-- Latts tells the stories behind the names of some brands Heaven Hill produces, such as Larceny and Black Heart. Latts goes on to discuss some of her proudest moments in the industry, such as the creation of the first pomegranate liqueur, Pama. She also discusses the evolution of marketing in today's world. Latts notes that her daughter, Lindsay, wants to work in the family business when she grows up. Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Blackheart spiced rum ; Captain Morgan ; Elijah Craig bourbon whiskey ; Evan Williams bourbon whiskey ; Jake Latts ; John Fitzgerald ; Kentucky ; Larceny Kentucky Straight Bourbon ; Larry Kass ; Lindsay Latts ; Old Fitz ; PAMA Pomegranate Liqueur ; Pirates ; Spiced rum Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Branding (Marketing) ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry 17 4029 Jewish values in business You talked so much about the, the intertwining of family and business... Latts discusses the Jewish values that her family and Heaven Hill find most important, such as hard work, education, and family. She does note, however, that these values are not at all limited to the Jewish religion. African Americans ; Allan Latts ; Bernheim Distribution ; Bourbon Heritage Center ; Catholic ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Chicago, Illinois ; Education ; Evan Williams bourbon whiskey ; Family ; Hard work ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish values ; Jewishness ; New York ; Prosperity Whiskey ; Starbucks Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 41.878, -87.629 17 Chicago (Ill.) interview Kate Shapira Latts is one of the only women in a high executive position at her family’s business, Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. She was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1971. From an early age, Latts remembers feeling very proud of and interested in the family business. She recalls doing childhood science experiments to see which grains or mash blends provided the highest yields of alcohol. She explains that her Jewish identity was shaped by many things, including her family’s Jewish values and her experiences at Camp Birch Trail in Minong, Wisconsin, a primarily-Jewish all girls’ summer camp. She was also very active in the National Council of Jewish Women’s junior council leadership development program. Kate Shapira Latts was inspired from a young age by her aunt, who had a meaningful executive career as well as a family in the 1980s, a time when it was not the status quo to do so. In her interview, Latts discusses the challenges professional women face in a mostly male-dominated industry. While she explains that she loves her job, she also points out that working with her family in the family business requires a special work-life balance. No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh153_jk025_latts_ohm.xml 2016oh153_jk025_latts_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh153_jk025_latts_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kate Shapira Latts, May 24, 2016 Description An account of the resource Kate Shapira Latts is one of the only women in a high executive position at her family’s business, Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. She was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1971. From an early age, Latts remembers feeling very proud of and interested in the family business. She recalls doing childhood science experiments to see which grains or mash blends provided the highest yields of alcohol. She explains that her Jewish identity was shaped by many things, including her family’s Jewish values and her experiences at Camp Birch Trail in Minong, Wisconsin, a primarily-Jewish all girls’ summer camp. She was also very active in the National Council of Jewish Women’s junior council leadership development program. Kate Shapira Latts was inspired from a young age by her aunt, who had a meaningful executive career as well as a family in the 1980s, a time when it was not the status quo to do so. In her interview, Latts discusses the challenges professional women face in a mostly male-dominated industry. While she explains that she loves her job, she also points out that working with her family in the family business requires a special work-life balance. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh153_jk025 Subject The topic of the resource Alcohol industry. Bourbon whiskey Distillation. Distilleries--Kentucky Distillers. Family-owned business enterprises. Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Women in the whiskey industry Women--Employment. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/374ce03d0f2da5d8fa9f1d2766295e64.jpg 9379faab64c552a602e080f7fd088519 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mike Ades Interview Keyword Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company Jewish Hospital St. Joseph Hospital Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission The Plantory Social reformers Law schools. Jewish physicians. Medical care Education, Higher OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh149_jk024 Interview with Mike Ades, June 22, 2016 2016oh149_jk024 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Louisville (Ky.) Family histories. Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Religion Worship (Judaism) Discrimination. Hospitals Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jews--Identity. Lawyers--Kentucky Jewish lawyers Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company Jewish Hospital St. Joseph Hospital Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission The Plantory Social reformers Law schools. Jewish physicians. Medical care Education, Higher Mike Ades Janice Crane 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253329158&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family background For official purposes, today is June 22nd, 2016. My name is Janice Crane, and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Mike Ades (born March 1st, 1940) begins the interview by detailing his family background, including that his mother worked as a housewife and his father owned and operated a family dry goods business. He discusses how his grandfather, David Ades, immigrated from Lithuania around 1895. He discusses how his family played an integral role in the founding of Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Mike's grandfather David Ades and his brother Max Ades being the two founders. He talks about how his grandfather received the Optimus Cup in the 1950s for his work in civic and service organizations in the community. 1882 ; 1940 ; David Ades ; Francis Lederman ; Good Samaritan Hospital on Harrison Ave ; Isaac Lederman ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Lithuania ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Louis Ades ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Michael Lederman Ades ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0422246, -84.5006583 17 Good Samaritan Hospital on Harrison Ave 1222 Growing up in the Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company in the 1940s From previous interviews and research and conversations that I’ve had with, um, other members of the Jewish community, it’s clear that there were small--some of these small general stores... Ades discusses a general history of his knowledge of the Jewish-owned stores in Lexington, Kentucky. He notes that he never noticed that there was any discrimination against Jewish-owned stores or anything that really separated them from the community at-large. He then discusses the dry goods business that his family owned and operated. The Ades family owned and operated the Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company in Lexington, Kentucky from 1925 to 1977. Ades discusses how even today he still will drive by the old building, located at 249 West Main Street, because it holds very fond memories of his childhood, from playing with the toys on the third floor as a young boy to working at the store over the summers in high school. Ades Dry Goods ; Ades Lexington Dry Goods Company ; Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Building ; Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company ; Big business ; Dry goods ; Jewish ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish merchants ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Small businesses Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.044211, -84.49421799999999 17 Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Building 1637 History of family involvement with Jewish Hospital and St. Joseph Hospital Let’s leave Lexington and the ’80s for a bit and talk some about your maternal grandfather, Dr. Isaac Lederman, from Louisville. I found several interesting articles about him dating back to the late-1800s. Ades talks about his maternal grandfather, Dr. Isaac Lederman, mainly through what he knows from articles written about his grandfather and what few stories his mother told him growing up about how his grandfather was a very prominent physician. He talks about how his grandfather worked at Jewish Hospital until his passing. He then goes on to discuss how his family has a history of serving on boards for Jewish Hospital and St. Joseph Hospital in Lexington in the 1950s, and even how he himself is now on the board for KentuckyOne Health, which owns Jewish Hospital. 1890 ; 1896 ; David Ades ; Isaac Lederman ; Jewish Hospital ; Louisville Hospital ; Louisville, Kentucky ; St. Joseph Hospital ; University of Louisville ; University of Louisville Medical School Families. ; Family histories. ; Hospitals ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jewish physicians. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care 38.2490, -85.7513 17 Jewish Hospital, Louisville (Ky.) 2021 Growing up Jewish in Lexington, Kentucky in the 1950s Mike, you have a strong Kentucky background going back to the 1800s on both sides of your family, and your family history, especially here in Lexington, is clearly rooted in the Jewish community. So what was Judaism in your family like growing up? Ades discusses growing up in a Jewish family. He discusses how his grandparents (who immigrated from Lithuania) belonged to Ohavay Zion Synagogue, which was an Orthodox congregation at the time and would eventually become a conservative congregation. He talks about how his grandparents kept a kosher home, how they would go for Shabbos every Friday night to their grandparents' home, and how his grandfather would close the dry goods store on the high holidays and walk to the synagogue. He also discusses how his grandfather was a member of Temple Adath Israel, a reform congregation. Ades talks about how his father grew up in both Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and married a reform Jewish woman, and how this impacted his life growing up in a Jewish household because as a child he too split his Jewish observance between the two local Lexington congregations like his father before him. However, he says that he doesn't see growing up between the two congregations as being any sort of challenge or disadvantage in any way. High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Reform Judaism ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0357, -84.4828 17 Temple Adath Israel 2795 Growing up Jewish--Parental influences vs educational influences What did your parents teach you about Judaism? Ades discusses how growing up in a Jewish household and his familial influences on Jewish life differed from life as a Jewish student in school. He talks about how his parents and grandparents served as examples for living a Jewish life through their respect for family, membership in both congregations, and community involvement. He talks about being a Jewish student at Henry Clay High School, including how being a Jewish student was being a part of a very small close-knit minority. Ades says that he never experienced any anti-Semitism as a high school student. He then goes back to his family influence on his Jewish identity and talks about one of his most vivid memories growing up being going to his grandfather's house for Shabbos. Henry Clay High School (Lexington) ; Holiday Road (Lexington) ; Jewish ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish tradition ; Judaism ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Morton Junior High School (Lexington) ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0151968, -84.47270700000001 17 Henry Clay High School, Lexington (Ky.) 3712 University of Pennsylvania in the late 1950s / Meeting his future wife Harriet at Yale Law School in the 1960s Where did you go to college, and what did you study? Ades talks about his time as a college student at the Wharton School of Finance at the University of Pennsylvania. He ended up taking his junior year abroad at Edinburgh University in Scotland and traveled to many places in Europe. Upon returning to the United States he changed his major to political science and then applied to law school. He attended law school at Yale Law School in New Haven, Connecticut. During his time at the University of Pennsylvania he joined a Jewish fraternity, Phi Epsilon Pi. He met his wife Harriet during his third year of law school and they married on July 11th just after he graduated. They have been married for 51 years. 1950s ; 1960s ; Colleges ; Edinburgh University ; Phi Epsilon Pi ; Scotland ; University of Pennsylvania ; Yale Law School ; Yale University College students--Social conditions ; Education, Higher ; Law schools. ; Marriage ; Universities and colleges. 39.9522188, -75.1932137 17 University of Pennsylvania 4298 Raising Jewish children and impact of family values on children's observance of Judaism Describe any major differences or similarities that you and Harriet had growing up Jewish that might have impacted how you raised your kids. Ades discusses his and his wife Harriet's Jewish upbringings and how they both approached raising Jewish children. He says that his wife was raised in a more Reform Jewish background, while he became more active in the conservative Ohavay Zion Synagogue. However, his wife ended up having a stronger feeling toward conservative Judaism that he did, which is why they maintained their membership more at Ohavay Zion over Temple Adath Israel. They both knew they wanted to raise their children Jewish and had their children pursue early education through Ohavay Zion (noting the fact that they did not split membership for their children between the Temple and the Synagogue.) He talks about how some of his children increased the level of Judaism in their life by deciding to keep Kosher and go to Israel but then later drifted away from Judaism. His son David became an active member of Ohavay Zion in Lexington and later an active member of a Reform congregation in Durham, North Carolina. Conservative Judaism ; Israel ; Jewish ; Jewish education ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Jewish religion ; Jewish society ; Jewish tradition ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Reform Judaism ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 7.9986, -84.4718 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue 4964 Leadership roles in the Jewish community and Spinoza Society As long as I've known you you've been such a constant and critical piece of the fabric of the Lexington Jewish community, Mike. Ades talks about his various leadership roles in the community as well as his work with the Spinoza Society. He tells us that his primary motivation for taking on these leadership roles is from his grandfather David Ades and how involved his grandfather and his parents were in the Jewish community. He also tells us that the experiences he had growing up Jewish (Bar Mitzvah, confirmation, etc.) greatly impacted his feelings toward Judaism and the Jewish community, as well as being in a Jewish fraternity. He then talks about his work with the Spinoza Society (a society founded in 1880 that created a place for Jews in Lexington to be buried together.) Ades became a member in the mid-1980s and has since served on the board of the society and as the chair. Cemeteries ; Jewish ; Jewish burials ; Jewish cemeteries ; Jewish communities ; Jewish life ; Jewish traditions ; Leadership ; Spinoza Society Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 5588 Israel and Zionism influencing identity What was the--what has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your activities and of your identity as a Jew? Ades discusses how Israel and Zionism has played a role and impacted his personal Jewish identity. Through Sunday school and youth groups he became aware of the significance of the Holocaust and Israel. He wanted to spend a few months in Israel over the summer before returning from his year abroad in Edinburgh but his parents were strongly against it so he returned home. His feelings about Israel were reinforced through his work in United Jewish Appeal, and in 1972 he went on a UJA mission to Israel. Later in life he and his wife Harriet went back to Israel and other places in eastern Europe that held prominent history from the Holocaust. He went once more to Israel in 1992 sponsored by Hebrew University. He says that the attachment to Israel and Zionism has always been a part of his life. Eastern Europe ; Jewish ; Sunday school ; United Jewish Appeal ; Zionism Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) ; Israel. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 5912 Work as an attorney with Stoll, Keenon, &amp ; Park (1965-1980) and Greenebaum, Doll, &amp ; McDonald (1980-onward) Mike, let’s talk about your work as an attorney for a little bit. What area of law is your specialty? Ades discusses his time as an attorney. He became a part of Stoll Keenon &amp ; and Park in 1965 and was the only Jewish member at the time. His law practice over the next 15 years was about half release and half general law work. He became a partner in the firm after about 6 years. In 1980, he switched law firms to the Lexington office of the Greenbaum Doll &amp ; McDonald firm (at the persistence of his wife's brother) and specialized just in commercial real estate. Attorneys ; Commercial law ; Greenebaum Doll &amp ; McDonald ; Greenebaum, Doll, &amp ; McDonald ; Real estate ; Stoll Keenon &amp ; Park ; Stoll, Keenon, &amp ; and Park Jewish lawyers ; Lawyers--Kentucky 17 6082 Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission Mike, I don't know if you've ever Googled yourself-- Ades talks about his time as treasurer of the Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission. He describes the organization as being formed in the early 1960s and fighting discrimination in all aspects of the community. Within a year of joining he became treasurer. Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission Discrimination. ; Social action 38.029187, -84.51771500000001 17 Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission 6287 Work with healthcare institutions in the 1970s and 1980s And an article I found mentioned, um, and you spoke a little bit about, your position with both the Saint Joseph Healthcare System and the KentuckyOne Health. Ades discusses his work with various healthcare and medical institutions including KentuckyOne Healthcare and St. Joseph Healthcare. In the mid-1980s he served for 3 years on the advisory board of the Humana Hospital in Lexington, which was sold in the late 1980s to Jewish Hospital in Louisville. Ades was then asked to serve on the Lexington board for Jewish Hospital, which was then sold a year later to St. Joseph Hospital and Ades was again asked to serve on the advisory board. He then was asked to go on the board of KentuckyOne Health when they bought out St. Joseph and Jewish Hospital and served for three years (which he recently renewed). He had no prior hospital experience before serving on all of these boards. Catholic Health Initiative ; Jewish ; Jewish Hospital ; KentuckyOne Health ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Louisville, Kentucky ; St. Joseph Hospital Hospitals ; Jewish physicians. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care 38.032462, -84.5236511 17 St. Joseph Hospital, Lexington (Ky.) 6569 Work with the Plantory organization in the 1970s Explain what the Plantory is, and tell us what your role with the relatively new nonprofit has been and what you know about its beginnings and its relationship to the Kentucky Conference for Community and Justice. Ades talks about his work with the Plantory non-profit organization. He talks about the history of the Plantory, which began as a national organization at the National Conference of Christians and Jews in the 1920s that held conferences to facilitate conversations and work between Christians and Jews. Ades says that he joined the board of the Lexington chapter in the 1970s and left in the 1980s. Christians ; Interfaith council ; Jewish ; Jews ; The Plantory Christianity ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 38.05978140000001, -84.49189309999997 17 The Plantory 6870 Most rewarding leadership experience You know, we've probably barely touched on all of your civic leadership roles. Ades discusses his most rewarding leadership experience, which he says was during his time as president of Ohavay Zion Synagogue under the direction of Rabbi Schwabb in the mid-1980s. He talks about how the rabbi was very ill and many members in the synagogue believed that the synagogue should become more egalitarian. He discusses the conflict between the conservative views of some of the members of the congregation and the orthodox views of the rabbi and other members. He talks about how when Rabbi Schwabb passed away, a new rabbi (Rabbi Uri Smith) came into the congregation who was more open to the idea of female participation. He notes that not a single member left the congregation because of the change, though some may have disapproved, and he feels that it made the congregation stronger. 1980s ; Conservative Judaism ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish women ; Judaism ; Leadership ; Orthodox Judaism ; Transition periods Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Rabbis ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 37.9986, -84.4718 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue 7184 Jewish identity and its impact on his work as an attorney and civic leader What role, if any, has your faith, your Jewishness, had on your work as an attorney or as a civic leader? Ades says that the traditional ethical values of Judaism (being involved in the community, helping others who are less fortunate, and doing the right thing and encouraging others to do the same) which come from both his Jewish faith and heritage certainly shaped who he is as a member of the Lexington community and are a few of the main reasons behind why he does so much communal work with human rights organizations. Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Jewish religion ; Jewish tradition ; Judaism ; Lexington, Kentucky Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Social reformers ; Worship (Judaism) 40.7127837, -74.00594130000002 17 Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass interview Mike Ades begins the interview by detailing his family background, including how in 1895 his grandfather, David Ades, immigrated from Lithuania to Baltimore, Maryland and then later joined his brother in Lexington, Kentucky. He discusses how his family played an integral role in the founding of Ohavay Zion Synagogue: Mike's grandfather, David Ades, and his brother Max Ades were two of the synagogue’s original founders in 1912. The Ades family owned and operated the Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company in Lexington, Kentucky from 1925 to 1977. Ades discusses how even today he still will drive by the old building located at 249 West Main Street because it holds very fond memories of his childhood, from playing with the toys on the third floor as a young boy to working at the store over the summers in high school. He also discusses how his grandfather was a member of Temple Adath Israel (a Reform congregation in Lexington, Kentucky.) Mike talks about how his father grew up in both Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and married a reform Jewish woman, and how this impacted his life growing up in a Jewish household as his Jewish upbringing was split between both the conservative Ohavay Zion Synagogue and the reform Temple Adath Israel. Ades also discusses his various leadership roles in the community as well as his work with the Spinoza Society. He says that his primary motivation for taking on these leadership roles is from his grandfather, David Ades, and how involved his grandfather and his parents were in the Jewish community. He then talks about his work with the Spinoza Society (a society founded in 1880 that created a place for Jews in Lexington to be buried together). Mike became a member in the mid-1980s and has since served on the board of the society and as the chair. He goes on to discuss his practice as a commercial attorney, his work with the Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission, various healthcare institutions, and the Plantory organization. He concludes the interview by discussing how the traditional ethical values of Judaism (being involved in the community, helping others who are less fortunate, and doing the right thing and encouraging others to do the same) which stem not only from his Jewish faith but also his Jewish heritage, helped shaped who he is as a member of the Lexington community. They also help to explain why he has done, and continues to do, so much community-based service for not only the Lexington Jewish community, but the Lexington community in general. No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh149_jk024_ades_ohm.xml 2016oh149_jk024_ades_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh149_jk024_ades_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mike Ades, June 22, 2016 Description An account of the resource Mike Ades begins the interview by detailing his family background, including how in 1895 his grandfather, David Ades, immigrated from Lithuania to Baltimore, Maryland and then later joined his brother in Lexington, Kentucky. He discusses how his family played an integral role in the founding of Ohavay Zion Synagogue: Mike's grandfather, David Ades, and his brother Max Ades were two of the synagogue’s original founders in 1912. The Ades family owned and operated the Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company in Lexington, Kentucky from 1925 to 1977. Ades discusses how even today he still will drive by the old building located at 249 West Main Street because it holds very fond memories of his childhood, from playing with the toys on the third floor as a young boy to working at the store over the summers in high school. He also discusses how his grandfather was a member of Temple Adath Israel (a Reform congregation in Lexington, Kentucky.) Mike talks about how his father grew up in both Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and married a reform Jewish woman, and how this impacted his life growing up in a Jewish household as his Jewish upbringing was split between both the conservative Ohavay Zion Synagogue and the reform Temple Adath Israel. Ades also discusses his various leadership roles in the community as well as his work with the Spinoza Society. He says that his primary motivation for taking on these leadership roles is from his grandfather, David Ades, and how involved his grandfather and his parents were in the Jewish community. He then talks about his work with the Spinoza Society (a society founded in 1880 that created a place for Jews in Lexington to be buried together). Mike became a member in the mid-1980s and has since served on the board of the society and as the chair. He goes on to discuss his practice as a commercial attorney, his work with the Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission, various healthcare institutions, and the Plantory organization. He concludes the interview by discussing how the traditional ethical values of Judaism (being involved in the community, helping others who are less fortunate, and doing the right thing and encouraging others to do the same) which stem not only from his Jewish faith but also his Jewish heritage, helped shaped who he is as a member of the Lexington community. They also help to explain why he has done, and continues to do, so much community-based service for not only the Lexington Jewish community, but the Lexington community in general. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh149_jk024 Subject The topic of the resource Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Louisville (Ky.) Family histories. Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Religion Worship (Judaism) Discrimination. Hospitals Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jews--Identity. Lawyers--Kentucky Jewish lawyers Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/b73672841d01ee8d321bb9280835c74b.jpg 191993c00b02ecef1ecb513150b17fb1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arwen Donahue Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Benjamin Baker Interview Keyword Families. Family histories. Jewish children Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh062_jk022 Interview with Benjamin Baker, May 13, 2016 2016oh062_jk022 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Religion Worship (Judaism) Families. Family histories. Jewish children Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Benjamin Baker Arwen Donahue 1:|35(7)|46(10)|69(3)|89(6)|99(8)|117(3)|126(8)|139(5)|148(1)|168(11)|180(9)|193(9)|202(6)|218(14)|233(12)|245(7)|253(10)|268(9)|289(11)|297(11)|309(3)|324(6)|346(4)|354(5)|366(1)|382(1)|398(3)|408(12)|421(5)|435(17)|455(11)|466(3)|475(10)|491(10)|497(12)|503(9)|509(4)|518(8)|528(13)|538(11)|552(14)|560(9)|570(16)|579(1)|594(6)|601(12)|640(4)|650(7)|676(1)|684(6)|699(12)|713(2)|727(16)|739(5)|750(7)|760(5)|776(11)|785(2)|793(7)|804(6)|820(15)|828(6)|836(6)|849(6)|864(16)|871(13)|879(11)|892(4)|901(5)|911(2)|919(12)|929(9)|938(2)|948(12)|955(4)|967(10)|978(15)|987(9)|1011(5)|1022(4)|1041(8)|1055(4)|1068(4)|1089(13)|1100(12)|1116(2)|1126(12)|1143(3)|1155(12)|1167(2)|1196(8)|1209(15)|1218(5)|1228(4)|1235(1)|1250(3)|1261(11)|1283(6)|1294(8)|1304(9)|1322(11)|1330(4)|1345(7)|1361(7)|1379(9)|1410(3)|1423(5)|1438(7)|1449(6)|1459(2)|1471(11)|1482(5)|1495(1)|1505(4)|1515(7)|1525(13)|1538(8) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253328697&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family history Alright. It's May 13th, 2016. Ben Baker describes his family's history, primarily focusing on his mother's side. His maternal grandfather, who was originally from New York, owned a clothing store in Lexington on the corner of N. Mill Street and E. Main Street, which remained open until sometime in the 1950s. He also traveled around the southeast United States and managed stores that were closing. He came to the Lexington area in part because he had relatives living in Paris, Kentucky. Baker family ; Barbara Francis Baker ; Barbara Strauss ; Entrepreneurship ; Family values ; Gloria Baker Feinstein ; Jewish businesses ; Michael J. Baker ; Migration ; Moving ; New York (N.Y.) ; Peddlers ; Peddling ; Roos family ; Small businesses ; Traveling salesman Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Paris (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.048, -84.499 17 Former location of Ben Baker's maternal grandfather's clothing store on the corner of N. Mill St. and E. Main St., Lexington, Kentucky. 257 Family generational shift from Orthodox to Reform Judaism Um, I had the impression from interviewing your father that his parents were very, um, very open to change. Baker's paternal grandparents practiced Orthodox Judaism before immigrating from Poland. After arriving in the United States, however, Morris Baker helped found Ohavay Zion Synagogue in 1912. After his death in 1946, Baker's maternal grandmother attended Temple Adath Israel with her children, in part because it was difficult to maintain a more strict Jewish practice in a small Southern town. Bar mitzvahs ; East European immigrants ; Family values ; Harold Baker ; History ; Jewish history ; Jewish practices ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; Lexington history ; Morris Baker ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Poland ; Reform Judaism ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Small town life ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Immigrants--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.043, -84.502 17 First location of Ohavay Zion Synagogue (currently Joe Bologna's Restaurant and Pizzeria). Located at 120 W. Maxwell St. http://www.ozs.org/history-2/history/epiloguefounders/ List of original founders, including Morris Baker, that established Ohavay Zion Synagogue in Lexington, Kentucky in 1912. 465 Working at Baker Iron and Metal in 1964 And what about your involvement, um, with the family business, when you were a boy? Baker describes working in the family business, from customer service and clerical work during the summer as a child in 1964 to helping run the business full-time after graduating college in 1972. His father, Harold Baker, continued to have a significant presence in the business and contributed to marketing, outreach to industrial accounts, and customer service. Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Family businesses ; Family values ; Harold Baker ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish economic niche ; Scrap metal ; Shelley Dehr ; Small businesses Childhood ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.079, -84.473 17 Location of Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal Co. at 740 Rockcastle St, Lexington, Kentucky. http://www.bakeriron.com/about-us &quot ; About Us&quot ; section of Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal Co. 685 Celebrating Jewish life as a child in the 1950s and 1960s Going back to your family background and a bit-- you mentioned that it was important to you to have family here in Kentucky when you were, when you were growing up. Holidays were a highlight for Baker during his childhood because they always involved large family gatherings. In recent years, however, Baker has had to start inviting friends over for holidays because many members of his family are unable to attend due to location or disability. He also discusses his Jewish education and identity and how it affected his childhood experiences, from missing school during the High Holidays and being unable to attend events on Friday nights. Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Decline of Jewish population ; Family life ; Family values ; Generational change ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jewish education ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Public schools ; Sunday school ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Childhood ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1064 Attending Deerfield Academy in Deerfield, Massachusetts from 1965 to 1968 So when you went to Ashland, Cassidy, and Morton were your friendships across the board-- Although the public schools in Lexington did not offer Jewish students excused absences for religious holidays, Baker did not experience much anti-Semitism in Lexington. He does remember an incident of anti-Semitism involving other students while attending high school at Deerfield Academy in Deerfield, Massachusetts where he was excluded from signing up for a dorm room with a group of students. This led to Baker seeking out a university with a larger Jewish population and eventually attending Northwestern University from 1968 to 1972. Colleges ; Deerfield (Mass.) ; Deerfield Academy ; Friendship ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; High schools ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish population ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Northwestern University ; Prejudice ; Public schools ; Secular ; Universities Anti-Semitism. ; Antisemitism. ; College students--Religious life ; Education ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. 42.545, -72.608 17 Deerfield Academy, 7 Boyden Ln, Deerfield, Massachusetts. https://web.archive.org/web/20071215044208/http://www.deerfield.edu/admissions/index.cfm?page_ID=16 History of Deerfield Academy, located in Deerfield, Massachusetts. 1455 Returning to Lexington in 1972 And what happened while you were there that made you realize you wanted to come back and be involved with the family business? Baker returned to Lexington after he graduated from Northwestern University in 1972 to help run Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal. He notes that many children of parents in the Lexington scrap metal business ended up returning to Lexington and working in the family business as well. He also discusses the importance that Judaism played in his life during college, becoming involved with Temple Adath Israel, and meeting his wife, Ruth Gordon Baker. Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Board of directors ; Cohen family ; Conventions ; Family businesses ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish economic niche ; Jewish identity ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish networks ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Leadership ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Migration ; Religious practices ; Scrap metal ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) College students--Religious life ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 38.004, -84.171 17 Location of Harry Gordon Steel, located at 695 N Main St, Winchester, Kentucky. http://www.lextai.org/about-us/our-history History section of the Temple Adath Israel website. 1609 Evolving role of Judaism in Baker's life When you were in college did you maintain a Jewish practice? Sense of Jewish ritual? While attending Northwestern University, Baker admits that it was difficult to maintain Jewish practices and that he was more concerned with college life. He and his family are avid fans of the University of Kentucky's (UK) men's basketball team, and he describes the only basketball game he attended while in college - the UK Wildcats versus the Northwestern University Wildcats. He became a member of Temple Adath Israel when he returned to Lexington in 1972 and quickly took on a leadership role. Although the role of Judaism in Baker's life was initially to meet other Jewish contemporaries, it has evolved into a spiritual force in his life. Basketball ; Board of directors ; College life ; College sports ; Community ; Community involvement ; Courting ; Harry Gordon Scrap ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish networks ; Jewish practices ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Northwestern University ; Religious practices ; Ruth Gordon Baker ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Kentucky College students--Religious life ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 2018 Changes in Reform Judaism as a reaction to assimilation and intermarriage So how did you, um--how did your own practice of Judaism differ, how did it, how does it differ from that of your parents, if at all? As Jews became more assimilated and married gentiles at a greater rate in recent decades, most Reform congregations became more conservative in their religious services in order to maintain a sense of Jewish identity and community. Baker discusses how Temple Adath Israel has followed the national pattern of leaning more conservative in recent years. Changing practices include incorporating Hebrew into services and increased congregation participation. He also discusses Temple Adath Israel's growing openness to including non-Jewish spouses in services and rituals such as bar and bat mitzvahs in order to keep mixed-faith families as a part of the Temple's congregation. Assimilation ; Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Board of directors ; Congregations ; Decline of Jewish population ; Generational change ; Intermarriage ; Jewish identity ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jewish religion ; Jewish tradition ; Reform Judaism ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/us/poll-shows-major-shift-in-identity-of-us-jews.html Article from the New York Times titled &quot ; Poll Shows Major Shift in Identity of U.S. Jews.&quot ; 2784 Service on the Temple's board of directors in the 1980s and 1990s And when you started being involved in the board, um, I read that, I read in the history book, um, the, the Centennial history book, uh, on Temple Adath Israel, that came out in 2003 or 2004-- Baker served on Temple Adath Israel's board in many different positions for twelve years and he explains the line of succession for the Temple's board. He discusses how he believes that his service, which detracted time from his family, negatively influenced his children's views of Judaism. He also talks about the causes for the generational decline in Temple attendance which includes the economic stagnation in Lexington, the out-migration of young people, and a focus on family activities as opposed to social activities. Board of directors ; Decline of Jewish population ; Family life ; Generational change ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Jewish society ; Population growth ; Succession ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Worship (Judaism) 17 3065 Declining Temple attendance in the 2000s I, I think that, uh, in the se--when I was--when I came back from school in the seventies and eighties, uh, socially there--this was a way for me to, uh, meet young families, young, young couples and so Ruth and I were very excited about this possibility... Attendance at Temple Adath Israel reached its zenith during the seventies and eighties due to young people moving back to Lexington after college and the economic boom in the area. Baker and his wife, Ruth Gordon Baker, attended the Temple and were able to meet other young couples and they remain active members of the Temple. In recent years, however, the Temple's congregation has shrunk due to an aging congregation, the out-migration of young Jews, and economic stagnation resulting in fewer people moving to Lexington. Baker is dedicated to fighting for a Reform Jewish presence in Lexington for the next generation but is grappling with the challenge of increasing Temple membership and stabilizing Temple finances. He does not foresee a viable solution to this problem at the moment. Board of directors ; Civic involvement ; Community ; Community involvement ; Decline of Jewish population ; Generational changes ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish population ; Jewish tradition ; Migration ; Population growth ; Reform Judaism ; Role of communal institutions ; Ruth Gordon Baker ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Kentucky ; University of Kentucky Hospital Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 3817 Working in the scrap metal industry from the 1970s to 2002 Well, let's go back and talk, y--more about the ir--scrap iron business, iron and metal business. Baker talks about his time working for Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal. The employees at Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal were very supportive of Baker when he first started working, and in turn he supported them by trying to find them work at the business during economic downturns and hiring several children of current employees. He explains the obstacles that the business faced, from a cyclical economy to losing contracts due to geography and location. He also describes the competition and camaraderie that he shared with other business owners and the eventual selling of the company to the Cohens in 2002 due to health concerns. Antisemitism ; Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Blues family ; Building businesses ; Business obstacles ; Cohen family ; Discrimination ; Economic interdependence ; Education ; Family businesses ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish economic niche ; Jewish networks ; Jewish practices ; Klempner family ; Mansbach family ; Prejudice ; Religious practices ; Scrap metal Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 4684 Gentile-Jewish relations in the family scrap metal business I'm, I'm interested in what the atmosphere was like at the, at the conventions, and at the meetings, if you have Jewish b--if you have businesspeople from all over the place who, the majority of whom were Jewish, was there any particular, um--would, would somebody who just walked in have noticed, in some way, that there was a-- Scrap metal has historically been a predominantly Jewish industry, and Baker describes his experiences as a Jew dealing with gentiles in the business, from attending national conventions and competing for contracts with gentile businesses, to relations with his gentile employees. He also remembers working with his father, and his father's continued involvement in the company until they sold it in 2002. Antisemitism ; Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Discrimination ; Family businesses ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Harold Baker ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Prejudice ; Religious life ; Religious practices ; Scrap metal ; Stores closing for holidays Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 5120 Connection with the larger Jewish community as a child Um, wondered, going back to your childhood and youth, just to pick up on a couple questions that I neglected to ask you earlier: did you connect at all with the larger Jewish community in Louisville or Cincinnati, such as, you know, through youth groups, parties, um, et cetera? While growing up, Baker was able to connect with other Jewish kids at a regional summer camp in Zionsville, Indiana, giving him a different Jewish experience than attending services in Lexington. Attending the summer camp allowed him to share experiences with the larger Jewish community, such as attending Shabbat services with other people his age. Bar mitzvahs ; Conclave ; Indianapolis (Ind.) ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Reform Judaism ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Summer camps ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Youth organizations ; Zionsville (Ind.) Childhood ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. 39.923, -86.283 17 Location of URJ Goldman Union Camp Institute at 9349 Moore Rd, Zionsville, Indiana. http://guci.org/about/ About section of the URJ Goldman Union Camp Institute, a Reform Jewish summer camp in Zionsville, Indiana. 5482 Israel's influence on Baker's Jewish identity Did you ever, at, at a certain point, get a sense of, um, Jewish--or get, get very interested in Jewish history and Jewish identity, sort of internationally... The Six Day War in 1967 was one of the first times that Baker identified with an international event as a Jew. Since then he has followed current events relating to Israel and visited the country with his wife, some friends, and his Rabbi, Jon Adland, in 1994. It was one of the first times that Baker was able to experience Jewish life as the default. Although some in the Lexington Jewish community feel a strong connection to Israel, Baker does not feel remorse for making his home in Lexington. Community ; Holocaust ; International relations ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Munich Massacre ; Munich, Germany ; News ; Political discourse ; Rabbi Jon Adland ; Rose family ; Six Day War ; Small town life ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Zionism Israel. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism 17 6204 Raising children Jewish in Lexington, Kentucky Uh, did you h, have anything to add about your approach to giving your children a sense of their Jewish heritage, and Jewish identity, and how you passed that along to them? Although their children were raised Jewish and Baker's daughter had a Jewish wedding and visited Israel with them in 1994, Baker's children do not actively participate in Temple Adath Israel. Baker and his wife gave their children the &quot ; tools&quot ; for Judaism but never forced them into it. Baker does not attribute his children's unwillingness to participate in Judaism to assimilation into a dominantly Christian culture. Child-rearing ; Cultural acceptance ; Cultural preservation ; Family life ; Family values ; Holidays ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; John Adland Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. 17 6510 Temple relations with the Synagogue and the Federation of the Bluegrass And then d--have you had any kind of relationship with the Synagogue? In recent years, Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue have begun to develop a more friendly relationship. Baker attributes this to rabbinic leadership at both institutions and the more tolerant attitude of newcomers in the Lexington Jewish community. In a community as small as Lexington, Baker welcomes the budding relationship between the two congregations. He also discusses his relationship with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, which was originally only a fundraising organization but has since expanded the number of services it offers. Baker explains that the competition between Temple Adath Israel and the Federation for community leaders and the schism within the Temple's congregation over a rabbi in 1986 shrunk the Temple's pool of young leaders. Bill Leffler ; Board of directors ; Community involvement ; Generational change ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Morris Baker ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Small town life ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 37.997, -84.479 17 Location of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass at 1050 Chinoe Rd #112, Lexington, Kentucky. http://www.jewishlexington.org/ Homepage of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass. interview Ben Baker describes his family's history, primarily focusing on his mother's side. His maternal grandfather, who was originally from New York, owned a clothing store in Lexington on the corner of N. Mill Street and E. Main Street, which remained open until sometime in the 1950s. Baker's paternal grandparents practiced Orthodox Judaism before immigrating from Poland. After arriving in the United States, however, Morris Baker helped found Ohavay Zion Synagogue in 1912. After his death in 1946, Baker's maternal grandmother attended Temple Adath Israel with her children, in part because it was difficult to maintain a more strict Jewish practice in a small Southern town. Baker describes working in the family business, Baker Iron &amp ; Metal, from customer service and clerical work during the summer as a child in 1964 to helping run the business full-time after graduating college in 1972. Holidays were a highlight for Baker during his childhood because they always involved large family gatherings. In recent years, however, Baker has had to start inviting friends over for holidays because many members of his family are unable to attend due to location or disability. He also discusses his Jewish education and identity and how it affected his childhood experiences, from missing school during the High Holidays and being unable to attend events on Friday nights. He became a member of Temple Adath Israel when he returned to Lexington in 1972 and quickly took on a leadership role. Although the role of Judaism in Baker's life was initially to meet other Jewish contemporaries, it has evolved into a spiritual force in his life. He describes the changes in Reform Judaism as a reaction to assimilation and intermarriage, trends in Temple attendance throughout the decades, and the relationship between Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue. DONAHUE: All right. It&#039 ; s May 13th, 2016, I&#039 ; m Arwen Donahue, and I&#039 ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence, and I&#039 ; m honored to be here, today, with Mr. Ben Baker. Uh, we interviewed Ben&#039 ; s father, Harold Baker, a little under two weeks ago, on May third, so we&#039 ; re especially happy to have this chance for intergenerational perspective. So let&#039 ; s start today with, uh, your date of birth? BAKER: September 10th, 1950. DONAHUE: Okay, and where were you born? BAKER: Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington. DONAHUE: Great. What was your name at birth, your full name? BAKER: Benjamin Roos Baker. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Roos is my mother&#039 ; s maiden name, so I was the only one that got, uh, a family name, of the three of us. DONAHUE: And that&#039 ; s-- BAKER: --of the four of us-- DONAHUE: --that&#039 ; s R, R-O-- BAKER: R-double-- DONAHUE: --O-S? BAKER: Correct. DONAHUE: Yeah, okay. Um, so we know f--your parents&#039 ; names, and your father explained a little bit about the family history. I just wonder if you have any, um, since we didn&#039 ; t talk very much about your mother&#039 ; s history, we talked more about your father&#039 ; s family history, if you have anything you can say about your mother&#039 ; s family, where they came from? BAKER: Um, Mom was born in Lexington, she was an only child. Her grandfath--her father was one of two children, they were from New York, and he came to Lexington to open up a business, a men&#039 ; s clothing store, or women&#039 ; s clothing store, I guess. And he had several businesses, really, was, he traveled around Southeast United States doing closeouts: when stores would close, he would come and do the last four months, or five months, of a business&#039 ; existence, and then he&#039 ; d come back to Lexington. Uh, my grandmother on my mother&#039 ; s side had a sister who lived in Paris. DONAHUE: Paris, Kentucky? BAKER: Um-hm. So the two families were very close. They also only had one child, uh, her name is Barbara Straw, she is still living, she&#039 ; s ninety-two. So it w--I was very fortunate, in that my father had a sister living here, my mother had a cousin living here. So family was very important, as far as growing, as, when I was growing up. So. DONAHUE: What was the name of the clothing store that your mother&#039 ; s father had, do you know? BAKER: I cannot answer that for you. I can tell you its-- DONAHUE: --but they had-- BAKER: --location, but I can&#039 ; t tell you our--the name of it. DONAHUE: Okay. Tell me its location, though. BAKER: Um, one block west of the courthouse, of the old courthouse, at the corner of Main Street and Mill. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: On the same side of the street as the courthouse. DONAHUE: And was that still in operation during your childhood? BAKER: Um, it was in existence, um, but my grandfather, uh, did not age well, and so I&#039 ; m not sure how long the business existed after I was born, so. DONAHUE: Um-hm, um-hm. And, um, did you have brothers and sisters? BAKER: I have an older brother who lives in San Francisco, a sister who, younger sister, who lives in Kansas City, and a third, a second sister, who lives in Seattle. DONAHUE: What are their full names? BAKER: Michael J. Baker, who was born in 1947 ; Gloria Baker Feinstein, who was born in 1954 ; and Barbara Francis Baker, who was born in 1959. DONAHUE: Okay, thank you. Um, I had the impression, from interviewing your father, that his parents were very, um, very open to change, they came to the United States, and they were, um, at least his father&#039 ; s father, Morris Baker, was, uh, hel--a founder of the synagogue, and had come, he said, from Poland, and was, come fr--had come from an Orthodox background, but he didn&#039 ; t hold onto that, the Orthodox tradition, he later became a member of the temple, and embraced Reform Judaism. And, uh, I wondered if you just had any reflections on, uh, what it was that made your grandparents kind of open to that change and, and whether that-- BAKER: Well, I interpreted what Dad said a little differently than you. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: I don&#039 ; t think that my grandparents were as receptive to the change as my parents. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Uh, my grandparents remained--well, my grandfather died in &#039 ; 46, so, um. He died before any of his grandchildren were ever born. Uh, but, uh, I don&#039 ; t, I think my, my grandmother on my dad&#039 ; s side probably attended, uh, the temple only because her children were attending the temple. But I think her main place of worship was the synagogue. Um, she died when I was young. Ten, eleven, so &#039 ; 62, &#039 ; 63, someplace in that area (??). DONAHUE: I wondered, because it seemed as if, coming from Poland, and from a place that had very, um, Orthodox traditions, and then coming to a new country, and, um, being willing to not keep kosher, and, uh, and being willing to have your children go to a Reform temple, where men and women worship together, struck me as being open, fairly open to change. BAKER: Well, I think, I think that statement is correct. Um, keeping kosher in small town USA is a challenge. Um, logistic-wise, and expense-wise. Now, yes, there was a butcher, uh, on Upper Street, I think, but it&#039 ; s a real challenge to try to keep kosher, uh, according to all the laws that are set down. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Um, and I think that my mother was always a member of the temple, uh, and my father became involved in the temple, uh, after he was bar mitzvahed, uh, and it just, it was easier. He doesn&#039 ; t speak Hebrew, uh, and at the time the services at the synagogue were in Hebrew, and it, uh, was, was just, uh, a more comfortable place for my parents, I can&#039 ; t speak for my grandparents. DONAHUE: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And what about your involvement, um, with the family business, when you were a boy? Did you have much awareness of what was going on in the business, and did you kind of spend time in there, in the, in the Baker Iron and Metal business? BAKER: Uh, I started working summers in either 1964 or 1965. Uh, so I was fifteen. I worked every summer, I sometimes worked Christmas vacation, or, once I got into high school. So I, I really was the only one of the four children that spent any time at the office. Uh, probably my sophomore year of college, I realized that I had an opportunity, and so I told my father that I would be coming back to Lexington after I graduated in &#039 ; 72, uh, to work with him. He was excited, this is, you know, whenever you have a family business, you always hope that one of your offspring is going to, uh, show an interest in coming back to the family business. Uh, there was never any pressure, so it wasn&#039 ; t like, &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; re the designated one that&#039 ; s coming back to, to Lexington.&quot ; But, as I said, none of the other members of my family showed any real interest in doing this, so. It worked out fine. DONAHUE: So when you were fifteen and sixteen, and started going over to the office, was that out of any kind of family pressure at all, or was that-- BAKER: No-- DONAHUE: --just your own decision? BAKER: No, it was my own decision to make some money--(laughs)--it wasn&#039 ; t any other reason, so. DONAHUE: And when you got there, were you interested in what was going on there, did you get, uh, engaged by the business end of it? BAKER: Well, in, in the, my early years, it was strictly clerical work. Uh, I might answer the phone, uh, might be cashier, paying customers, uh, but it was up until, uh, the time I graduated from college, most of what I did was strictly clerical. Uh, it wasn&#039 ; t until after I came back from, in &#039 ; 72, and started working full-time, that I got involved in, uh, in what was going on outside of the confines of the office. So. DONAHUE: Was your father, during that period, involved in all aspects of the business? BAKER: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. Yes. He did have a man that was working, had two, two people that had worked with him: a man by the name of Shelley Derrer (??), who was, um, I&#039 ; m not exactly sure what Shelley&#039 ; s title was, but he did some of the marketing, called around on some of the industrial accounts, and then he had a skill man that had been with him for twenty-plus years, uh, that he relied on, who opened up the business every morning, and, uh, knew all the customers that came in across the scale. So he was very valuable. Uh, but Dad did the vast majority of the marketing, called on many of the industrial plants that we did business with, so. DONAHUE: Going back to your family background and, a bit, you mentioned that it was important to you to have family here in Kentucky when you were, when you were growing up. Did you, um, did your family gather together for holidays, or wh--how often? How, how was that family? How did you experience that family togetherness? BAKER: Oh. We always gathered for, uh break the fast, for, uh, Passover, uh, always celebrated one night of Hanukkah together, where everybody bought presents for everybody else, and the kids were spoiled badly. Um, so it was always, uh, a major event in our house, to, for that. Um, and then when we were a little bit older, and, um, uh, the family started having, um, bar and bat mitzvahs, obviously that was a major family event. And in the--those particular times, family from out of town would come to Lexington to celebrate as well. Uh, but for just the regular holidays, that was strictly, um, those families that lived in Lexington. But it was always, uh, always a family occasion. And that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s so odd, now, because I always had, uh, especially for Passover, we always had so much family living in Lexington, that we had no problem filling our table. Uh, now that we have so few members of, of our family living in Lexington, or those that are capable of coming, uh, we now have started inviting, uh, close friends. Uh, just because it, it&#039 ; s a, it&#039 ; s an occasion that you want to share, uh, and not just limit it to immediate family, so. DONAHUE: So about how many people would you have around your table, during your childhood? BAKER: Oh, this year we had twelve-- DONAHUE: --um-hm-- BAKER: --uh, we&#039 ; ve had as many as sixteen or eighteen, um, when my, uh, when I was growing up, we would have the adult table and the children&#039 ; s table, and you always wanted to graduate from the children&#039 ; s table to sit at the adult table, uh, and then always complained when the, one of the adults ended up sitting at the children&#039 ; s table, because it inhibited what the kids could do. Um, so I can remember, uh, going to, uh, aunts on, the aunt on my father&#039 ; s side, and the aunt on my, and the cousin on my, uh, mother&#039 ; s side, uh, where we would have sixteen, or twenty, uh, just because we had a big family, you know. I mean, they&#039 ; re f--there, there were six in my family, and then when you ask each of the cousins, you know, it, it grows without asking anybody else from outside of the family to show up, so. But they were always fun occasions. DONAHUE: And how did your parents approach your Jewish education? BAKER: Well, I went to Sunday School, uh, I went to, uh, Hebrew School, which was always on Monday afternoon, after public school. Uh, wasn&#039 ; t a very good Hebrew student, language has always been a challenge for me. Um-- DONAHUE: Was that mainly to learn for your bar--for the purposes of your bar mitzvah? BAKER: Yes. Strictly for my bar mitzvah, yeah. And so it, you are, it&#039 ; s--forty years ago, fifty years ago, when I did this--(laughs)--it was more memorization than being able to pick up a book and read what, uh, what was on the printed page. Uh, hopefully they&#039 ; re doing things differently now, but when I went through this, uh, it was strictly, uh, at least from what I remember, it was memorization. So. DONAHUE: Did you have a sense of Jewish identity that was important to you, or did you have a sense of, of doing, uh, of fulfilling your parents&#039 ; wishes with your Jewish education? Where did that stand in your own psychology? BAKER: Um, well, I really don&#039 ; t think that it impacted me one way or the other, uh, probably until the age of fifteen or sixteen, uh, I mean, I knew that, uh, Friday nights, I wasn&#039 ; t going to be doing, uh, I wasn&#039 ; t going to basketball games, or, or things of that nature. And it was more situational because, uh, my parents were going to services. Maybe we didn&#039 ; t tag along, but my parents were going to services, and it just wasn&#039 ; t convenient to do other activities. Um, I think that, uh, because I missed school for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, really, those are the only two holidays that you, uh, abstain from going to school, I knew I was a little different. But it wasn&#039 ; t a situation that, uh, I was waving a flag and saying, &quot ; I&#039 ; m Jewish, I&#039 ; m different,&quot ; there were not that many Jewish kids in any of the public schools. I mean, we were spread out throughout Lexington, so there wasn&#039 ; t er, uh, if there were more than four or five Jewish kids at Ashland, or Cassidy, or Morton, uh, that really was, uh, exceptional. And those are the three schools that I went to, the public schools that I went to in Lexington. I went away to school for high school, uh, and that&#039 ; s where my, uh, I realized that there was, uh, a difference. So. DONAHUE: So when you went to Ashland, Cassidy, and Morton, were your friendships across the board, with Jewish and non-Jewish students? BAKER: Um-hm, most definitely. Yes, most definitely. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And did you experience any--any anti-Semitism at all? BAKER: Not in Lexington. No, I wasn&#039 ; t aware of, um, being treated differently, or people saying things, no, not at all. DONAHUE: Hm. Where did you go to high school? BAKER: Uh, Deerfield Academy, in Deerfield, Massachusetts. DONAHUE: And describe what happened, there, that made you feel more like you were-- BAKER: Well, it-- DONAHUE: --differentiated because of-- BAKER: --my-- DONAHUE: --your religion? BAKER: My sophomore and junior year, I didn&#039 ; t feel uncomfortable. I was surprised by the number of Jewish students that were there. And it was an all-boys&#039 ; school when I was there, from &#039 ; 65 to &#039 ; 68. Uh, it, there were 550 students, and maybe ten percent of the school, maybe a little bit more, was Jewish. But most of the students came from, uh, not very religious backgrounds. So the number of people that would go into the closest town, which was Greenfield, for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur services, were maybe ten, maybe fifteen. Uh, it just, uh, they, it wasn&#039 ; t important to them. Um, my senior year, I realized that, uh, some of the people that I thought were my friends, uh, were, had some anti-Semitic strains to their, the activities and the relationship between the, between us. Um, I, nothing I could do about it, uh, I didn&#039 ; t make any loud noises or anything, I just accepted it, and kept my head down, and finished out my year, and, knowing that I wasn&#039 ; t going to see them again, and life would go on. So. DONAHUE: How did that get expressed, what, what did you see? BAKER: Um, well, the thing that, that struck me was that the way you sign up for dorms, is you get X number of people together, and as a group, you sign up to be living in a, from a sophomore dorm, to a junior dorm, a junior to a senior dorm. Each year. And between my sophomore year and my junior year, there was a group of eight of us that signed up together, and all of us lived on the same floor. Um, when we got ready to sign up for my senior year, they made a point of making sure I didn&#039 ; t join them, the same group of people. Uh, the sad thing was that, because I signed up by myself, I end up being on the same floor with those eight people who had told me that they didn&#039 ; t want me, uh, to sign up with them for senior year. I assumed, because I was the only non-Jew-- DONAHUE: --you were the only Jew-- BAKER: - -I was the only Jew among the eight or nine, that that was the rationale behind it. May--whether I was reading into it or not, I have no idea, but so. DONAHUE: Hm. How did that impact your sense of Jewish identity, did that make you feel more--? BAKER: Um, I, I came away from it, realizing that, when I got ready to apply for college, I was looking for a school that had a larger Jewish population, so that, um, I had a greater population to pick from, as far as friends going forward. Um, so I applied to the University of Pennsylvania, Northwestern, and Washington University in St. Louis, each of them that have a, uh, higher percentage of Jewish students than most colleges in the United States, so. So. DONAHUE: And which one did you wind up attending? BAKER: I went to Northwestern. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: So. Long time ago. (both laugh). DONAHUE: What years were you there? BAKER: [Nineteen] sixty-eight through seventy-two. DONAHUE: What were your interests, and your hopes and dreams at the time? BAKER: Well, I went in thinking I was going to be a math major. Uh, what I was going to do with it, I had no idea, but I thought I&#039 ; d be a math major. And that lasted two quarters ; when, what I understood at math, and what they were teaching at math, were not necessarily the same. So I changed to social psychology, and, as I said, I decided, sometime during my sophomore year, maybe my junior, that I was, um, coming back to Lexington, so I was more interested in developing the people skills that you would need to run a business. I didn&#039 ; t necessarily want the--to go into a business program, uh, it was too late in the game to change horses, change courses. So I didn&#039 ; t do that, uh, that might have been beneficial, but it was too late in the process. So it, um, it was just a, it was a positive experience, as far as just developing, so that, when I came back to be involved in a small business, such as our family business, that, uh, I had some skills that, uh, developed over the four years that I was at Northwestern, so. DONAHUE: And what happened while you were there, that made you realize you wanted to come back and be involved with the family business? BAKER: I don&#039 ; t know if there was any one particular thing. Um, it just, I, I felt comfortable with the family business, uh, I saw an opportunity, I liked Lexington, Lexington had been my home all my life, um, and I just, I thought that would be a good place to live, so, as I said, I don&#039 ; t think there was any one particular incident or episode that caused me to, to say, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m headed back to Lexington.&quot ; It, that generation of young people whose families had scrapyards, it&#039 ; s surprising, the number of people from--who are a couple years older than I am to a couple years younger--how many gravitated back to their family businesses. I mean, the company that bought us out in 2003-- DONAHUE: The Cohen family-- BAKER: The Cohen family. The--both of, of the children, of the boys, that is, came back in the family business. One is three years older than me, and the other is three or four years younger than me. And both of them gravit--after college, gravitated back to, uh, being in the family business, so. DONAHUE: Did you have close relationships with some of those families, while you were growing in (??)? BAKER: Uh, I had none. Dad had the relationships, I didn&#039 ; t. My relationships developed after being in the business, uh, going to, uh, we have a, we had a local chapter that was based in Cin--Cincinnati, so the, all the dealers from, uh, Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky would come down--and parts of West Virginia--would come to Cincinnati on a quarterly basis, for meetings. And I would meet them, uh, I would see them at, uh, seminars, uh, national conventions, so because our parents knew each other, and because we had similar locations, uh, similar problems, uh, we kind of gravitated to each other, so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. I&#039 ; d like to get back and talk about that in a bit, but first, um, when you were in college, did you maintain a Jewish practice, sense of Jewish ritual, did you go to services, or--? BAKER: None whatsoever. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Did you miss that at all? BAKER: Um, no. DONAHUE: Did being there give you any, being away from your, uh, from Lexington, from Kentucky, from your family, and from your Jewish life here, kind of give you any perspective on, um, the, the community, that maybe you didn&#039 ; t realize when you were in the middle of it, growing up? BAKER: At the time, probably not. Um, when you are a college student, when I was a college student, maybe not everyone. When I was a college student, you were living at the moment, you&#039 ; re not necessarily, um, delving deep into why you&#039 ; re doing certain things. Uh, the only--uh, I&#039 ; m an avid sports fan for UK sports. And one of the years that I was at Northwestern, Kentucky played Northwestern in basketball. And both Kentucky&#039 ; s and Northwestern&#039 ; s nicknames were Wildcats. That was the only basketball game I went to in four years. And it was really nice, because I could stand up and say, &quot ; Go Cats!&quot ; DONAHUE: Right. (laughs). BAKER: And no one knew who I was cheering for. Um, my parents, uh, always made arrangements to go to the Mideast Regionals, and because, back then, they kept all the schools within a certain region, so Kentucky always played in the Mideast Regional. And they were the only school from the Southeastern Conference that got to go. We went to Columbus, we went to Madison, Wisconsin, I went to the Final Four in College Park, Maryland, um. Nah, we, those were the things that I thought about, more than, uh, the Jewish aspect of, of my life. It&#039 ; s sad to say, but that&#039 ; s the truth--(laughs)--so. DONAHUE: Well, when you came back to Lexington, after you graduated in 1972, did you immediately get back involved in, with temple activities-- BAKER: --I did-- DONAHUE: --and--? BAKER: I did. Uh, I joined the temple within two or three months after coming back to Lexington, um, because I knew a high percentage of the families that were here, uh, they got me involved in committee work, maybe too quickly, uh, and then I was asked to serve on the board, to run for the board. Um. After I&#039 ; d been here for, probably, seven or eight years. And so. Yes, I became involved. And then my wife and I were married in 1977, so yes, we were both involved. She had, she was born Jewish, uh, her family&#039 ; s, her family resigned from the temple when she was very young, but she knew how important the temple, and Judaism, were to me, so it was not a problem for her to be as involved as I was. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What&#039 ; s her name? BAKER: Ruth Gordon Baker. DONAHUE: Okay. So is she, it, the, part of the Gordon family that was also-- BAKER: She is-- DONAHUE: --involved in the scrap business? BAKER: She is. Was. They&#039 ; re no longer in the--but, yes. She was George&#039 ; s youngest child, uh, so. DONAHUE: How did you, did you know her through your childhood, then? BAKER: No. She is, um, four and a half years younger, I knew her brother and one of her older s--sisters, um, but when I left Lexington at the age of fifteen, she was only ten. So, uh, that, um, there really weren&#039 ; t any reasons for our paths to cross. Uh, and as I said, her father resigned from the temple, so as I was growing up in the business, I knew the name, Harry Gordon Scrap, um, but it wasn&#039 ; t until I went to her cousin&#039 ; s bar mitzvah, and I met her, and this was in, uh, 1976, uh, that I even knew she existed, so. And we started dating, I got mar--we were married a year later. DONAHUE: Was your commitment to the temple, uh, was there a combination of, uh, that it--let me see how to frame the question--did it feed you spiritually and socially, culturally, was it tradition, or what was the primary, what was the core of the importance of that experience, that connection, for you? BAKER: There definitely was a spiritual aspect, but I think, early on, the social aspect was, uh, much more important. I mean, here I was, a young, single individual, coming back to Lexington, uh, I was looking for ways of meeting contemporaries, uh, so this was, um, a good way of meeting that. And I&#039 ; d really come to the conclusion that I was hoping to find someone Jewish, and that&#039 ; s a real challenge in a small community, that&#039 ; s not related, or it&#039 ; s not somebody that you knew from, you know, umpteen years ago, so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: So, fortunately, Ruth filled all of those things. DONAHUE: But you weren&#039 ; t conscious that you were looking for someone Jewish at the time? BAKER: Um, I probably was. I probably was. So. DONAHUE: So how did you, um, how did your own practice of Judaism differ, how did it, how does it differ from that of your parents, if at all? BAKER: Uh, well, Reform has evolved. Reform Judaism has evolved over the forty-four years that I&#039 ; ve been a member of the temple. Um, early on, there was very little Hebrew, um, there was mostly--services were mostly in English, the choir, which my mother was, for a long time, was the only participant, except for the holidays, um, sang a few songs, the congregation very rarely participated. As things have progressed over the years, I think there is, uh, a movement to get back to a more traditional service, uh, there is an increase in Hebrew, there is a more participatory singing program, uh, where the, the objective is to try to get the, the congregation to, um, be an active part of it. I&#039 ; m old school, uh, um, I can do many of the prayers, I can follow along with many of the prayers in Hebrew. Um, I have no voice, so the singing is, um, almost verboten. My wife gives me dirty looks, so once our children were confirmed, which is the age of sixteen, the number of Friday night services that we went to has decreased. Um, I guess over the last thirty years, I can only remember one or two High Holiday services that I&#039 ; ve missed, um, but I look at it as, I&#039 ; m a past leader of the congregation. And there is a s--there is a support factor. To say, this is important to me, this should be important to the next generation, and if my contemporaries don&#039 ; t show up, then why should the next generation feel that it&#039 ; s important? As I have, uh, said for the last thirty-five years of leadership, I want to make sure that there&#039 ; s a Reform Jewish presence in Lexington for the next generations to come. And without the emotional support, without the, um, some financial support, without my presence, uh, I can&#039 ; t very well say that and not--if I don&#039 ; t show up and do things, then my words just are very hollow. So. DONAHUE: Has the--do you feel that the temple in Lexington has, um, kind of followed along with the mainstream of Reform Judaism across the United States, or, or are there ways that it&#039 ; s, that it does things its, its own way and has kind of had to work out its own identity? BAKER: Um, I&#039 ; m not that familiar with other congregations, other than what I read. Uh, I do--I&#039 ; m very close to a former rabbi that was here up until 2003, and I know how his congregation has evolved. And I would say, to a, a large degree, Temple Adath Israel has done the same, uh. I think that the, the movement as a whole has be--has adopt--has adapted, or adopted, a more traditional way of worshipping, uh, and uh, I think that we are part of that group. DONAHUE: So ba--then, getting back to the question about how your Judaism differs from that of your parents, in a way it sounds as if you&#039 ; re a little more traditional than your parents were, is that what you&#039 ; re saying? BAKER: Um, the congregation has moved that way. I don&#039 ; t know if Ruth and I have moved that way. Um, as I said, we don&#039 ; t go to Friday night services very often, uh, the service is different, it&#039 ; s not right, it&#039 ; s not wrong, it&#039 ; s just different. Uh, I don&#039 ; t have the same comfort level with the service as I did twenty years ago. That&#039 ; s just me. There are other people that have been here the same length of time, and have gone through the same slow changes, and are ecstatic with it. It&#039 ; s just whatever comfort level you have, and our comfort level is not, uh, as great as others, so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: So I--yes, the Temple Adath Israel is more conservative today than when my parents first joined in 1946, as a family, as a couple, um, definitely more conservative today than, uh, when I was growing up. Um, but there&#039 ; s still a few holdouts of people who liked the, the old ways. DONAHUE: And just to be sure I understand, the conservatism, is that because that&#039 ; s the, the way that all of Reform Judaism is moving-- BAKER: --I think so. And I think that, if you would ask members of the synagogue, I think, to a certain degree, they have moved to a more orthodox service. There&#039 ; s, they would still classify themselves as Conservative, but it&#039 ; s a more, um, orthodox service than, that it was twenty-five years ago. And I think part of it is the fact that there was a fear--this is my interpretation, never been said by anybody else--there was a fear that young people were being too assimilated within the larger community. And, if they didn&#039 ; t become immersed, to a certain degree, in Hebrew, and didn&#039 ; t feel comfortable, then the chances of them continuing to, being Jewish, whether Reform or Conservative, going forward, uh, were probably diminished. Uh, so. The Jewish community has, um, significant problems as far as numbers. And the assimilation rate, intermarried rates, are very high, and if the, if one or--th--one of the spouses is not, uh, very very comfortable, then the chances of that family remaining Jewish, uh, go down pretty significantly, I would think. DONAHUE: There was a time, wasn&#039 ; t there--tell me if I&#039 ; m wrong about this, but--when, um, interfaith couples wouldn&#039 ; t have been as welcomed, maybe, in the temple, as they are today? Isn&#039 ; t that right? BAKER: Oh, I think that, um, well. I can only speak for the last thirty-five years, f--for me. And it has been very welcoming and, because there were, as I was growing up, there were many interfaith families, um, and I think that over time, they realized that th--th--the powers that be, the leaders of the movement, realized that they had to do even more, or they were going to lose a significant portion of the Jewish population to either not being involved, or becoming involved in another religion. So they, they wanted to reach out to the non-Jewish spouse, not necessarily to convert them, but for them to feel comfortable. And many of my contemporaries, uh, have non-Jewish spouses who have been very involved, um, never converted. Some have, but not, some haven&#039 ; t. But it was, um, I think that the, the welcoming portion of it, uh, was a critical factor in keeping some of them Jewish, and raising their families Jewish. So. DONAHUE: Did conversations like that come up during your time on the board? BAKER: Oh, most definitely. DONAHUE: Um-hm? BAKER: Most definitely. Because we had to try to figure out, um, what we could do as far as outreach, uh, there was always the question by the rabbis, as far as, uh, when a family was bar or batm--having a bar or bat mitzvah, what level of participation the non-Jewish spouse was going to be able to, how they were going to be able to participate. Um, so, and other than doing prayers, uh, the objective was to make them feel as comfortable, and include them in every facet of the service, and of the celebration, uh, as we could, other than that one particular portion. So when the Torah is passed from parents to child, the non-Jewish spouse, if they wanted to participate, was encouraged, um. For many years, the parents would sit on the Bima with their child, and the non-Jewish spouse was, it was almost insisted that they be there so that they could be supportive of their child, even if they weren&#039 ; t necessarily comfortable in, uh, the service itself. But if they&#039 ; ve made it to the seventh grade by then, uh, there was a, a certain level of comfort, uh, for the non-Jewish parent. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: So. DONAHUE: Yeah, I imagine if they&#039 ; re, if they&#039 ; re encouraging their child to have the bar or bat mitzvah, it means-- BAKER: Yeah-- DONAHUE: --that, suggests-- BAKER: --most definitely-- DONAHUE: --a certain level of commitment. BAKER: Most definitely. DONAHUE: And when you started being involved in the board, um, I read that, I read in the history book, um, the Centennial history book, uh, on Temple Adath Israel, that came out in 2003 or 2004-- BAKER: 2003. DONAHUE: Um, that, in order to be president of the congregation, you had to serve, I believe, for maybe eight years-- BAKER: Forever-- DONAHUE: --on the board before that. (laughs). BAKER: Forever. (laughs). DONAHUE: Eight years on the board, and then two years as president, and then two years following that as past president. BAKER: Well, the hope was that you would go through all of the different, uh, chairs of being an officer. So you would start as secretary, and you&#039 ; d spend two years there, and two years as treasurer, two years as second vice, two years as first vice. And then, if you survived, then you would go in as president. Um, I skipped a couple of steps along the way, I was never secretary, I was never second vice president. Uh, but I did serve two years as president, in 1989 to 1991, and then the person that succeeded me, when I would have been immediate past president, only served one year, and he moved out of the community. So I ended up serving three years. And then, while I was still immediate past president, one of the, I guess the first, vice president, resigned, and they threw me back in as first vice president, so I ended up serving one more year as first vice president, two more years as president, two more years as--so for--there was a period of time, there, I think, for thirteen years, I was on the executive committee thirteen or fourteen years in a row. Um-- DONAHUE: That&#039 ; s a big chunk-- BAKER: --so it was a long-- DONAHUE: --a big chunk of your life. (laughs). BAKER: --it was a long time. (laughs). DONAHUE: Yeah. BAKER: It was a long time. So. DONAHUE: And uh, what, what, what did that commitment mean, uh, in, in terms of your, your life? Uh, year by year, how mu--how much of a commitment was it? BAKER: Um, it was a lot. Uh, and my kids resented it. DONAHUE: Hm. BAKER: Um, I was president of the congregation before the age of forty, and when you&#039 ; re--that meant that I had a, uh, child that was ten, and a child that was seven. And when you spend a minimum of two nights a month away, and you go to committee meetings, uh, when you don&#039 ; t necessarily show up for some activities because you&#039 ; re either working or you&#039 ; re doing something at temple, um, it creates some resentment that Dad&#039 ; s being pulled away from something. And that&#039 ; s what happened, that&#039 ; s--no, I can&#039 ; t change it, that&#039 ; s what happened. Uh, we have we&#039 ; re--we&#039 ; re fortunate, now, in that the officers that were, the people that we&#039 ; re picking to be officers, most of the time their children are gone, or their children are a little bit older, so that there&#039 ; s a little more independence between that, the children, and their parents. Uh, but my kids resented it. No, no question about it. DONAHUE: Hm. BAKER: It impacted how they look at Judaism today, uh, because of the amount of time that I spent doing other things. So. DONAHUE: Hm. How did it impact that? BAKER: Neither one of them are involved. Both of them live in Lexington a moment, at the moment, uh, neither one of them, both of them are single, and that might have something to do with it. Um, our daughter was a member for several years, but she came away feeling it was more family-oriented, and there wasn&#039 ; t much for a single female. Uh, my son just moved back to Lexington, uh, seven months ago, and he&#039 ; s shown no inclination to, uh, want to get involved with the temple, so. I, I think that, uh, in this, when I was, when I came back from school, in the seventies and eighties, um, socially, there, this was a way for me to, uh, meet young families, young couples. And so Ruth and I were very excited about this possibility, because there were a lot of young families, our contemporaries, coming in--to Lexington at the same time. So we had a network of eight, ten, twelve families that we, or couples, that we saw, our kids grew up together, um, it&#039 ; s not that important to our kids now. So. DONAHUE: Were those couples that you and Ruth were socializing with moving in for university jobs, or-- BAKER: For a variety-- DONAHUE: --variety? BAKER: A variety. I mean, some of them were Lexingtonians, and once they got married, then, then the couples, um, became friends, uh, but there were some that came in from outside, either for--I mean, there was one that came to work for, uh, for the bank, uh, there was another one who went to, went to school here, graduated from law school here and, and stayed, he and his wife. Um, but many of them were, uh, native Lexingtonians that, uh, I grew up with, and once they got married, then it was just very convenient for families to get together. So. DONAHUE: So for your children&#039 ; s generation, there just aren&#039 ; t as many people for them to socialize with that are their own age? BAKER: Not through the Jewish community. Most of the kids that they, um, went to religious school with, no longer live in Lexington. Whereas, I was thinking about this as I was driving over, of my confirmation class, and there were probably fifteen or sixteen in my confirmation class, probably half of them still live in Lexington. It doesn&#039 ; t mean that I see any of them, but there was a higher percentage of, uh, my contemporaries who&#039 ; s, who remained in Lexington. Uh, and then there were people a couple years older, and a couple years younger, who have stayed in Lexington, either because of family businesses, or, um, they just took jobs in Lexington and just stayed. So. DONAHUE: Do you feel like, um, part of that, the generational shift, has to do with, um, if people are committed to their Jewish identities, that they&#039 ; d, that they&#039 ; re not, that they want to be in a, in communities that have a larger Jewish population? Do you th--or, do you have any insight about that? BAKER: I think that&#039 ; s probably a true statement. Um, I think that many of my children&#039 ; s friends went away to school and didn&#039 ; t come back. They met someone, they got married, they took jobs in other communities, um. How observant, how involved some of their friends are in other communities, I would be reluctant to say, I&#039 ; m just not, uh, I haven&#039 ; t followed the, tracked, of, of what they&#039 ; ve done since they left Lexington, so I can&#039 ; t say. So. DONAHUE: And then, when you said earlier that you feel that you&#039 ; ve stayed involved with the temple primarily because you have invested so much in keeping Reform Judaism alive in this community, um, can you kind of describe what, what the heart of what you want to keep alive is, what part of that tradition means the mo--means the most to you? BAKER: Um, I want the next generation of kids to appreciate a Jewish life. Without a Ref--and there&#039 ; s a difference between a Reform, and a Conservative, and an Orthodox, obviously--ah, and you have certain freedoms, being Reform, that you certainly don&#039 ; t have as, being, through, or--Orthodox. Uh, you have a few more freedoms than you do when you&#039 ; re being Conserv--in a Conservative background. But I, I want to make sure it&#039 ; s an option that&#039 ; s available. Um-- DONAHUE: Which of those freedoms are most meaningful to you? BAKER: Um, haven&#039 ; t thought about that, that&#039 ; s an interesting question. Um-- DONAHUE: We can come back to it if you want-- BAKER: Okay, I&#039 ; ll have to think about that. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: But the, for a long time, not to change the subject, but for a long time, the temple was very small, 175 families, and then there was an explosion of new families coming in, y--to Lexington, as we discussed before. Either because of business, because of, uh, the university, the VA hospital brought many families, uh, to Lexington. And the congregation grew significantly. Uh, 1985, 1986, we finally reached 300 families. Well, for a congregation that had been sitting in the 175, 200 for a long time, that was a fifty percent increase, as far as families were concerned. Uh, when I was going to religious school, there were probably--or, well, when my kids were going to religious school--there were probably 140 kids in religious school, from Pre-K up to tenth grade. Now, we have sixty-five. The congregation is getting older, the influx of younger families has--I won&#039 ; t say stopped, but it&#039 ; s not as significant as it was years ago. The university is not attracting the same number of Jewish families that they were before, where there&#039 ; d be, from the hospital or from the, uh, the rest of the university, uh, business is not expanding in Lexington, so there&#039 ; s a real challenge, as far as finding, or attracting, people to, to join the temple. So when you lose somebody, either because of death, or because they no longer want to be involved, that has a significant impact on a wide range of things, and because one of the issues that is most critical to me is the financial aspect of it, uh, when we lose members, uh, the financial support, your base, dwindles as well. And as we are aging, that population--my father&#039 ; s contemporaries, um, who have been extremely supportive, both financially, and spiritually, and so many other ways--five years from now, ten years from now, they&#039 ; re not going to be there. Who&#039 ; s going to be the n--who&#039 ; s going to step up to do the things that they have been doing for a long, long time? And, unless you develop a strong sense of being, of necessity, of responsibility, um, the chances of our being here, as we know it, as it&#039 ; s constructed today, twenty years from now, that&#039 ; s going to be a real challenge. So it, it, that&#039 ; s the important aspect, as far as I&#039 ; m concerned, is finding a way to ensure that the next generation, and the generation after that, has the opportunity, the same opportunity that my parents and my grandparents afforded us. So. DONAHUE: Do you see any paths to meeting that challenge? BAKER: No. I really don&#039 ; t--(laughs)--um, um, I mean, we&#039 ; re no longer of childbearing age, so that&#039 ; s, that kills that idea--(laughs)--um, most of my contemporaries are the same way, uh, and too many of them, their children don&#039 ; t live in central Kentucky. Uh, so. So I&#039 ; m not optimistic. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Sadly. DONAHUE: Um-hm. During your presidency, um, your two terms as president, what, you mentioned that part of your focus was, well, a lot of your focus was on welcoming people, and drawing more people in, and I think I read that you had some success with that, with increasing membership during those years? BAKER: Oh, yes, there was no question about it. But there were several factors. One, we had a, um, young rabbi, John Adland, who had a, whose family was going, was, was aging as, along the way, so, uh, he was participating in the education of his children along with other children, um, there was an, an influx of young families, and young families attract other young families. Either by word of mouth, or coming from another community, and it was important to have their children educated. Uh, so the, the population of the congregation, certainly, grew during that time. Um, and in addition to that, the, my contemporaries became more successful--whether they were businessmen, or doctors, or whatever, or professionals of any type--and we certainly encouraged them to be more supportive, financially, than they were when they started, uh, how ever many years earlier. So we had a posi--we were in a position, uh, of financial stability, uh, we were able to put money aside for rainy days, uh, so. There, there were some things that we were able to do that we&#039 ; re not in a position to do at the moment, so. Y--it, it&#039 ; s sad when a religious entity has to look at more than just the spiritual aspect of it, but if you want a full-time rabbi, you have to have the finances to do that. And if you want to maintain a building, you have to have the finances to do that. And someone has to look at the business side of a religious entity, while others are looking at the spiritual side. And if you don&#039 ; t have the two, uh, and if they&#039 ; re not both working hand-in-hand, eventually one&#039 ; s going to collapse. Or both will collapse, I guess, so--(laughs)--yeah. So. DONAHUE: Well, let&#039 ; s go back and talk, y--more about the ir--scrap iron business, iron and metal business. You mentioned, a while ago, the, coming, coming into the business, you started 1972 or 1973-- BAKER: Seventy-two-- DONAHUE: --and, um, how you had started to kind of get to know other families, from going to conventions, and meetings, and-- BAKER: --um-hm-- DONAHUE: --or maybe you could just go back to that time and talk about how it was, how you learned the reins of the, of the business, and also just, if you could reflect on, since the scrap metal business was so much at that time in a--among the Jewish population, or, or among the population of people who owned scrap metal businesses, so many, such a high percentage were Jewish, uh, maybe you could reflect on that, that kind of sense of community that you, you may have found there, in that business. BAKER: Well, there are two different aspects, and I&#039 ; ll, I&#039 ; ll address the training portion first. Uh, Dad made a comment, on more than one occasion, that, if he had his rathers, I would have gone to work for someone else before coming back to Lexington. Uh, because it would have brought a fresh perspective back to Baker Iron and Metal. Uh, I was very fortunate that my father had a core group of people who had worked with, for him, for a long time. And they realized that, eventually, I was going to be their boss. And they made every attempt to teach me, and were very patient, and wanted me to understand, not only what they were doing but why they were doing it, and how it impacted the whole picture, so that I would have a better understanding of the running of the company. Uh, the scrap business is a cyclical business. There are times when we are very busy, where the industrial accounts are very busy because the economy is booming, and we don&#039 ; t have time to breathe, we didn&#039 ; t have time to breathe. There are other times that it, the economy slows down, and the demand for scrap goes way down, and then you&#039 ; re really scrambling to try to find things to keep people busy, so you&#039 ; re able to retain that core group of people for the next boom period. So that, uh, I was very, very fortunate, uh, that they realized that their future was tied to my future. And they wanted to make sure that, um, Baker Iron and Metal was going to be there for the next twenty, thirty years, to keep them--and in many instances, their children--there were some whose ch--ah, followed their father, fathers, into the business, um, so we had second generations, just as I was third generation, uh, there were some that were second generation that, because they felt this was a stable business, that they could s--bring their kids into. DONAHUE: How many employees did you have? BAKER: Well, it fluctuated, it--it, I think at the high point, we were probably just over a hundred, uh, at low points we were probably forty-five or fifty, uh, that included crane operators, truck drivers, people in the office, uh, people who cut steel all day long. I mean, most of the stuff we did was manual, uh, we had laborers who pushed wheelbarrows, drove forklifts. Uh, so we had a variety--we had maintenance people, so we had a variety of people and, depending on the cycle we were in, we would increase or decrease, uh, our head count to be able to take care of the volumes that we were, were getting. Um, as far as the people that I became friendly with, the people that, um, were helpful, many of the dealers the, that my father was friendly with, came from small towns, relatively small towns. Middletown, Ohio, who was, that family, the Cohen family, was the one that eventually bought us out. But then there was another family, in Zanesville, Ohio, whose families were going through the same, uh, challenges, that we were in Lexington. Um, and it, it, so we kind of gravitated--ah, Kenny and Jack were both a little bit older, but because my father was close to their fathers, it just, it was easy, and we would talk on the phone, uh, we would buy material from each other, sell material to each other, uh. In the case of the Cohens, uh, they had--(cough)--they had a, uh, an industrial account outside of Middletown, Square D, which was in Lexington at the same time--(clears throat)--so my father and Wilbur would compare notes. So then Kenny and I would compare notes later on, because we were both bidding on, uh, those accounts, and we were, uh, experiencing similar situations, as far as the types of material, and the best markets for those material, to sell them at things, things of that nature, so. And then there were, uh, families in Louisville, the Klempner family, uh, we didn&#039 ; t compete to a great degr--ah, degree with them, uh, there, there were, uh, there&#039 ; s one or two families in Cincinnati, but uh, for a ci--for a city the size of Cincinnati, it was interesting that the amount of industry in Cincinnati that generated steel wasn&#039 ; t that significant. In the scrap business, those people that are next to a steel mill have a real advantage over people who are landlocked, like Lexington, uh, so there was, there were two steel mills in Ashland, so the Mansbach family was able to expand their business because they had a consumer there, there was a mill in Cincinnati, uh, initially it was called Interlake, and then it became Newport Steel, there was a large mill, AK Steel, in Middletown , so the Cohens had something where they were bringing scrap back to the mill, versus bring it--for example, if we had an account in Frankfort, we had to bring the material back from Frankfort to Lexington, and then ship it to a steel mill outside the area. Where, if a dealer in Cincinnati had that same account, he was already transp--transporting that material back to th--similar area. And if you lived on a river, you could ship material on a river, uh, much cheaper than you could ship it by truck or by rail. So there were certain advantages that, uh, other dealers had that we didn&#039 ; t. And then, in the mid-2000s, uh, early 2000s, turn of the century, uh, the next generation of children didn&#039 ; t necessarily want to go in the business, so there became a number of families, businesses, that became available. And the big got bigger, so that&#039 ; s how, uh, it was a combination of things. My s--my children didn&#039 ; t want to go into the scrap business, uh, I had some health problems in 2000--or, 1999, and my father thought, well, he had had the same health problems, I had a heart attack in 1999, and he said, &quot ; Why put Ben through this even longer?&quot ; So that&#039 ; s when we decided that, uh, if we could find somebody to buy it, uh, then we would, we weren&#039 ; t wedded to it, to, for eternity, and get out and move on to something else. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And--(coughs)--the Cohen family, did you, you described knowing them before, and you, and working with them some, um, were you, did you give them the chance, di--I mean, did you put out the word and far and wide and they just answered to it, or did you just make an offer to them? BAKER: I think they came to us. Now, whether Dad sent a message to the Cohens, that he would be interested, whether they had approached him previously and said, &quot ; If you&#039 ; re ever interested, please let us know,&quot ; I don&#039 ; t know all the inner workings of what transpired. Um, memory is something that you lose as you get older--(laughs)--um, so I just, I just know that, uh, they came to us in 2002, and we spent the next seven or eight months working out the logistics to, to do it. They had been buying up other small businesses, medium-size businesses, in the southern Ohio area, so it was not, uh, they were the logical person to, to exp--to expand into central Kentucky. DONAHUE: When you talked about how the cities and t--towns that had, that were near steel mills, had advantages that you didn&#039 ; t have, uh, how did your business adapt to not having those advantages, and how did, how did you compete? BAKER: Um, in certain situations, we couldn&#039 ; t. On ferrous, on steel and cast. On non-ferrous, it wasn&#039 ; t as much of a problem. But on ferrous items, um, certain situations, we couldn&#039 ; t. Uh, so if we lost an account, an industrial account, to, uh, the Klempners, or the Blues, or to the Man--or Mansbach, there wasn&#039 ; t much we could do about it. DONAHUE: Was there ever a sense of, um, or--can you describe the sense, was there a sense of community among you and the other people in the metal business? Um, or was there a sense that you were competing with each other enough that you, or, or even that there was enough distance between you, physically, that you didn&#039 ; t get to form personal relationships? BAKER: Um, I think, for the most part, the--you were selective. I think that there were certain geographical areas where people didn&#039 ; t bother you and you didn&#039 ; t bother them, uh, just because, after a while, transportation costs, if you&#039 ; re moving it by truck, just it got to be pro--prohibitive. So we wouldn&#039 ; t go into Cincinnati to pull scrap back to Lexington. It was not unusual for someone to do it the other way, but it wasn&#039 ; t--so the Cohens never really came down here, uh, the Mansbach would only come down to Morehead, or Mount Sterling, the dealers out of, uh, out of Louisville very rarely came into central Kentucky. But you h--have a dealer in Frankfort that was very competitive, and he was faced with very similar problems to, to what we were faced with. Um, so I think, as far as the relationship between the dealers in these small--in Middletown, and Zanesville, and Columbus, and--I think that, uh, it just evolved and there really wasn&#039 ; t, uh, I think that it was, we didn&#039 ; t necessarily go seek each other out, but when we saw each other, there was a mutual understanding of the challenges that one faces, being in a small business. So. DONAHUE: I&#039 ; m interested in what the atmosphere was like at the, at the conventions, and at the meetings, if you have Jewish b--if you have businesspeople from all over the place who, the majority of whom were Jewish, was there any particular, um, would, would somebody who just walked in have noticed, in some way, that there was a-- BAKER: No-- DONAHUE: There wasn&#039 ; t particular food that-- BAKER: --no-- DONAHUE: --was, like, or, or-- BAKER: --no. No, I think that the, um, I mean, I, I don&#039 ; t ever remember seeing shrimp being served, and we didn&#039 ; t have pork for any of the meals-- DONAHUE: --no bacon for breakfast? (laughs). BAKER: No, but, uh, I think that, you know, most of those places, you end up having chicken, or you have steak, and go from there, but no, I think that it was just understood. Because there was a, you have no way of knowing if, how observant one dealer was, versus how unobservant another one was, so why offend anybody? You know. And then, and many of the people that they hired were not necessarily Jewish, uh, many of the, and because the, um, brokerage firms that would buy, that were s--that were, the middle man between the steel mill and the dealer, they weren&#039 ; t necessarily Jewish, so it--everybody was there for one objective, and that was either to learn, or for the social aspect of it, uh, it wasn&#039 ; t necessarily a religious ac--activity at all. There was none of that whatsoever. DONAHUE: D--did you ever encounter conversations, or, um, or any g--hear any sign of people talking about maybe experiencing anti-Semitism in, within the business? BAKER: No. No. DONAHUE: You didn&#039 ; t experience anything l--like that yourself? BAKER: No. I mean, it might have occurred, there might have been an industrial account that said, that weren&#039 ; t going to do business with us, but it was not overt. Uh, I mean, I didn&#039 ; t know what the thinking was on the dec--I didn&#039 ; t know what the decision-making process was when an industrial account made a decision to do business with X versus Y, uh. You know, they could say, &quot ; Well, your price wasn&#039 ; t as good,&quot ; our price might have been better, but there was something else, another factor involved, I have no idea. But it was not overt. DONAHUE: And your employees, would, did, was the, were the relationships-- BAKER: No. DONAHUE: Pretty good? Did they express curiosity about Judaism? BAKER: Very rarely, very rarely. It, we were, well. The gates were closed on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but our employees still came to work. So it was not a day off for them, uh. Many of those, because we still had industrial accounts that we had to service, so it wasn&#039 ; t a situation that we could say, &quot ; Well, we&#039 ; re not going to be here today, uh, if you have scrap that, if you have a container that needs to be changed, we&#039 ; ll come by tomorrow,&quot ; that just wasn&#039 ; t going to, that wasn&#039 ; t going to happen, so we had to be available, uh, for whenever industrial accounts needed us. Uh, so th--but it was never, I don&#039 ; t ever remember anybody ever questioning why you&#039 ; re not here, or anything of that nature. And I was at the office, uh, I worked at Baker Iron and Metal full-time for thirty-one years, and I don&#039 ; t remember it happening, so. DONAHUE: Were there ever times, during Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, when you had to be interrupted f--to do something related to business? BAKER: Um, well, because most people we were doing business were Jewish as, as well, so I mean that, you know. Um, I always went down to the office before services. Or I would end up going to the office at the end of the day, just to check in, to see what was going on, see if there were any questions that needed to be answered or things like that. But fortunately, we had, uh, great staff that, when push come to shove, they would always be able to, most of the time, they&#039 ; d be able to solve a problem if it, if they needed to postpone the answer, then they could postpone the answer, but so. It wasn&#039 ; t a situation that I was pulled away from services and th--you know, for X, Y, or Z reason, no. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Didn&#039 ; t have cell phones back then, so I didn&#039 ; t, so. Once I star--once I arrived at Ashland Avenue, no one, uh, no one bothered me very much, so. DONAHUE: How, what kind of business relationship did you and your father have? BAKER: Um, looking back on it, it was great. But when you&#039 ; re living it day-to-day, you always have strains. Uh, you always, when you&#039 ; re thirty, and you think that your way is better than the way it&#039 ; s being done, I&#039 ; m sure I wasn&#039 ; t very diplomatic in some of the things that I did along the way. Um, but we had a great relationship, I was very fortunate. DONAHUE: Did he remain vitally involved in the business, up until 2003? BAKER: Very much so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. So were you kind of co--ah-- BAKER: No, I was running the business. He would only come in for maybe two or three hours a day. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Uh, but he wanted to know what was going on, he wanted to be involved in the, all the major decisions, when we were bidding an industrial account, he wanted to sit in on the conversation to, uh, to see if, uh, the margins were correct, and things like that. Uh. For the majority of ferrous contracts, you would sell the material the first of the month, and I would sit down with him and go over what we anticipated selling for that month, and things of that nature, so. Yes, he was very much involved. And I was glad to have the, the support and the guidance, and so. DONAHUE: I don&#039 ; t think you said what your children&#039 ; s names are? BAKER: My daughter is Erin, E-R-I-N, she is thirty-six. My son is Greg, and he was born in 1982, so he&#039 ; s now thirty-four. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Wow is correct. (laughs). DONAHUE: It&#039 ; s good. Okay. Um, let&#039 ; s take a short break. Okay. Um, wondered, going back to your childhood and youth, just to pick up on a couple questions that I neglected to ask you earlier: did you connect at all with the larger Jewish community in Louisville or Cincinnati, such as, you know, through youth groups, parties, um, et cetera? BAKER: I went to camp, v--Reform Jewish camp in Zionsville, which is just north of Indianapolis, uh, I guess, starting my sophomore year. And that--sophomore year in high school--and that afforded me the opportunity to meet other young people from across Ohio, Indiana, West Virginia, parts of Tennessee. That was the, really, the first time. And that really was an eye-opener, as far as I was concerned. Uh. DONAHUE: How so? BAKER: Well, I think that, um, it broadened my horizons beyond New Circle Road. Uh, as far as meeting people, and experiencing, sharing, ex--sharing things with them, uh, so I would, I went to Indianapolis for New Year&#039 ; s Eve, a couple years, because I became very close with some people from Indianapolis, uh, I&#039 ; d really looked forward to going back to camp, um, the two succeeding years after that. Uh, I was away at school, so I didn&#039 ; t get to see any of these people during the year, when there would be conclaves, uh, so this really, it&#039 ; s a time during the summer, really, was my only opportunity, unless I visited them when I was on vacation. So this, that was a, a real eye-opening opportunity for me. DONAHUE: And when you talk about getting a sense of the world outside of New Circle Road, was it a spepe--specifically Jewish world that you-- BAKER: Yes-- DONAHUE: --were getting a sense of? BAKER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, my p--um, my parents had shown, we traveled a lot when I was growing up, uh, so I had seen, um, things, but I had never seen it from a Jewish perspective. And when you go to a Jewish camp and you&#039 ; re immersed in, uh, in Judaism, and everybody there is Jewish, it, you just, you share experiences that you don&#039 ; t have at a, uh, non-religious camp, um, you don&#039 ; t have it when you are traveling around the United States, or when you&#039 ; re going to Europe, or anything like that, so. DONAHUE: Can you remember any examples of the-- BAKER: --oh, just, uh, I remember Shabbat services Friday night, uh, where everybody had to wear white, and you&#039 ; d just, uh, you know, you, it was, everybody sharing, doing the same thing. Uh, after every meal, we would sing songs, uh, in my first year, you know, it was all foreign to me, uh, but by the, my third year, it, it just was very natural, and, and very exciting. I, I really looked forward to, uh, to doing that. Um, let&#039 ; s see, what else. Oh, it&#039 ; s just, um, Hebrew wasn&#039 ; t that critical, so it, that wasn&#039 ; t as major a part of it, but it just, it was just doing things with other Jewish kids that was so exciting for me. Because I really hadn&#039 ; t had that opportunity, other than going to religious school, uh, I certainly didn&#039 ; t get it at Deerfield, so this was a real opportunity for me. DONAHUE: So when you went to Shabbat services at Temple Adath Israel, when you were a young person, it w--it was different, was it different primarily because you weren&#039 ; t just with other people in your age group, or were the rituals themselves very different? BAKER: Oh. Looking back on it, I would say it was just the age group, um, this was, wasn&#039 ; t yesterday, it was the day before, it was a long time ago. (laughs). DONAHUE: Right. BAKER: So I, I&#039 ; m guessing it was just sharing it with people my age that was so exciting. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. About how many people your age were there in-- BAKER: Oh, there were probably-- DONAHUE: --in the temple community? BAKER: A 150, maybe 200. DONAHUE: That&#039 ; s at the, in, in Indiana-- BAKER: Um-hm-- DONAHUE: --in the Indiana camp? BAKER: Um-hm. DONAHUE: And then how many were there, roughly, in the temple community? BAKER: Oh, it would be maybe, there were probably fifty or sixty that would come to Shabbat services, but I would say the vast majority of them were, uh, my parents&#039 ; contemporaries, or, you know, fifteen years older than me. The number of my contemporaries, of my classmates that would come on any given Friday night would be very few, and even if it was for the High Holy Days, you wouldn&#039 ; t necessarily sit with them, you would sit with your family. So you weren&#039 ; t sharing with your classmates, you were sharing with your family. Uh, when I went to camp, I was sharing with people my age. And so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And did you ever, at, at a certain point, get a sense of, um, Jewish, or get, get very interested in Jewish history and Jewish identity, sort of internationally, and what was going on with Jewish life in a, on a wider scale? BAKER: Um, the Six-Day war happened when I was--it was either 1967 or 1968, I think. DONAHUE: 1967, I think. BAKER: Yeah. So I was seventeen. And y--I became more aware of what was happening in Israel. The Holocaust really wasn&#039 ; t discussed a great deal, it was still too fresh in people&#039 ; s minds. Um, so this really was the first international incident, Jewish international incident. I can still remember, uh, the Cuban Missile Crisis from 1963 or 1962, whenever it was. Um, seemed--probably 1963, because my brother was away at school, and my parents were discussing, he was in, he was in Massachusetts as well, and they were discussing if they were going to bring him home, because they, was he going to be safer in Lexington than he would be in Massachusetts, in case something really serious happened? Um, but the Six-Day war, really, was the first Jewish international event that transpired. And then, obviously, the, the massacre, the Olympics in Munich, uh, was another, uh, significant international incident that, um, was very impactful on a young mind, so. And then you just, I don&#039 ; t say that I became immersed in it, but I became aware. And, because I liked to read about current events, uh, it was, uh, just natural that I would gravitate towards stories about Israel, what was happening. Uh, so. DONAHUE: And have you always followed Israel closely since then? BAKER: Um, I would say that I en--I read the articles, I listen to the stories, um, we visited Israel, and--(sighs)--eight--in 1993, 1994. Um, and I like to read articles about places that I have been because I have a much better frame of reference, so when, when Ruth and I have traveled to some, places that you wonder where they are on the map, and I see a headline from that particular country, I&#039 ; ll read the article, whereas I might not have read it prior to going? Well, the same thing&#039 ; s true with Israel. I, I have a certain understanding of geographic places and things, so I, I get an, a feel of what&#039 ; s going on. And then, when you read the article, you have a, it has a, it&#039 ; s more impactful to me than reading an article about Vietnam, or Indonesia, or something like that. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: And, obviously, there&#039 ; s a, uh, religious aspect to it that I don&#039 ; t have on sev--some other places, but because I was fortunate enough to visit that, uh, it has, has some bearing to it. DONAHUE: How have issues of Israel and Zionism played out in the community, at the temple? Is there, is there a sense, an ongoing conversation about those issues at the temple? BAKER: Uh, I&#039 ; m sure there is. There are certain members of the temple that are much more strongly attached to Israel than I am, who feel very strongly, either one way or the other, about politics in Israel. Uh, I am more liberal in my thinking than some others, and so the, there are some people that I grew up with who are very, very conservative, and who, um, feel very strongly that Israel needs to, uh, squash their neighbors--that might be too strong a word, but uh--and who feel that they should be expanding to protect their citizens. Um, we don&#039 ; t necessarily have conversations about Israel, because they know where I stand, and I know where they stand. (laughs). DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: And there&#039 ; s no reason to get into adversarial relationships if you don&#039 ; t have to. At least I don&#039 ; t, so. DONAHUE: What about within your family, have conversations about-- BAKER: I think that-- DONAHUE: --about Israel, and Israel&#039 ; s fate, been important? BAKER: R--no, it, it, I think all of us are pretty much like-minded, uh, as far as my immediate family&#039 ; s concerned, and uh, it very rarely comes up. I think, of the, of the four kids, I think I&#039 ; m the only on--only one that&#039 ; s been to Israel. Surprisingly. Uh, my s--brother and sisters and I have been very fortunate to see a lot of the world, but I think I&#039 ; m the only one that&#039 ; s been to Israel. DONAHUE: Why was it important to you to go? BAKER: Um, our rabbi was going to lead a tour. DONAHUE: This was Rabbi Adland? BAKER: Um-hm. And his children and our--and our children were within shouting distance of each other, age-wise, and there were another family that had a, or Harriet Rose&#039 ; s son, and wife, and daughter were going, so it just, it seemed the right time. My children were fourteen and eleven, and it just seemed the right time to let them experience this, uh. And I felt going with the rabbi was a much better way than us trying to do it on our own, he was going to show us things that we would never have found. And it was correct, so. DONAHUE: Did that have any impact on your Jewish identity? BAKER: Um, probably. Um, I think it just, um, it made certain things more real--just as when I went to camp and I was immersed with living a Jewish life for, for ten days, or two weeks, whatever it was--because Israel has a preponderance of Jews, you, you live the life, whether you want to or not. Uh, you just accept the fact. I re--I remember talking to people who come from certain parts of New York City, and joining a congregation wasn&#039 ; t important to them, because they were just living a Jewish life. All of their friends were Jewish, all of their neighbors were Jewish. Well, when you experience it in Israel, just about everything you&#039 ; re doing is from a Jewish perspective. Uh, so I, I think that it, you would be pretty hard not to come away with an enhanced experience, and, and your Judaism, uh, enhanced as well. DONAHUE: Did you ever feel drawn to being immersed in, in that kind of experience yourself? BAKER: No, no. DONAHUE: So no second thoughts about making a home in-- BAKER: No-- DONAHUE: --Kentucky? BAKER: No. No. I was well-established when we were there in 1994, and so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Um, do you have any other vivid memories of Jewish life and ritual from your early days that just st--stands out? BAKER: Um, I have s--I have pictures in my mind that my parents took, of consecration. When I was five years old, and my--(coughs)--grandfather, and my father, were on the Bima with this tiny little five-year-old kid, and my mother was singing in the choir, so here were three generations of, of Bakers that, uh, were deeply involved--or, two generations, and then little me--ah, in the congregation. It, I remember that. Uh, there are little things. I mean, we had a, uh, teacher by the name of Edith Will, of third grade, and we made menorahs out of clay, and I kept that menorah probably until I was twenty. It was just a face, and it was ugly, but it was, um. I remember my bar mitzvah, uh, there are just, you know, there are just, the things that you can flash back on that are, are incidents in your life. Now, whether they were because I have seen photographs, and so the photographs keep, keep reminding me of them, or it&#039 ; s just that certain things are engrained, I have no idea. I don&#039 ; t know how the mind works, but that&#039 ; s it. So. DONAHUE: Mm. Was your bar mitzvah a significant occasion for you? BAKER: I was glad it was over. DONAHUE: (laughs). BAKER: Um, it was a, it was a challenge. As I said, my Hebrew isn&#039 ; t very good, uh, I don&#039 ; t like sitting down, or standing up in front of people and talking, uh, so to get up and lead the service, um, even though what we did in 1963 was nothing compared to what the, the kids are doing now, uh, it still was a, uh, I wasn&#039 ; t very comfortable. In the process--(laughs)--I&#039 ; ll leave it at that. So. DONAHUE: Do you have any grandchildren? BAKER: I do not. DONAHUE: Yeah, you said, your, your two children are single. BAKER: I have two granddogs, but--three granddogs--but I don&#039 ; t have any grandchildren. DONAHUE: Granddogs? (laughs). And did you h--have anything to add about your approach to giving your children a sense of their Jewish heritage, and Jewish identity, and how you passed that along to them? BAKER: No, I, I think that, um, the only comment I would make is that I gave them the tools. What they did with it after that, once they ma--matured, that was their decision. Uh, we didn&#039 ; t feel, by f--we encouraged, but we didn&#039 ; t insist. Because it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s their lives. And um, so. All we did was we gave them th--the tools. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Did the trip to Israel have-- BAKER: --I don&#039 ; t-- DONAHUE: --an, an impact on them? BAKER: As far as my daughter was concerned, it was another notch on her belt. Because she likes to count countries, and so this was another one that she could cross off her list. I hate to say it that way, but. The contest, and the original contest, was to get to all fifty states. And now that everybody&#039 ; s accomplished that, now they&#039 ; re trying to see who can catch up with their mother as far as countries are concerned. And our daughter&#039 ; s the only one that&#039 ; s competing, because everybody else said, &quot ; Forget it.&quot ; (laughs). DONAHUE: But the mind is such a complex thing, it might come out in some, some other way later. BAKER: That&#039 ; s true, that&#039 ; s very true. DONAHUE: And they, they attended, did they attend, um, Sunday school at the temple-- BAKER: Um-hm-- DONAHUE: --as well, and? BAKER: Both of them were bar or bat mitzvahed-- DONAHUE: Um-hm-- BAKER: --both of them were confirmed-- DONAHUE: Um-hm-- BAKER: --um, yes. DONAHUE: And you talked about how, by the time, in more recent years, there were, there were not as many, you had to, for the High Holy Days, you had to invite friends around the table because there wasn&#039 ; t as much family. BAKER: Correct. DONAHUE: Was that the case when you were raising your own children? BAKER: No, because, um, my mother was still alive, uh, I had aunts, cousins that were still in Lexington, that were mobile, uh, but uh, some of those cousins have moved away, and some of those aunts and uncles have passed away. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Do you think your, uh, children, did they, um, get a--as invested in the holidays themselves, like that they would look forward to them, or did they, did you have a sense that the holidays were meaningful to them in the same way that they were to you? BAKER: Looking back, I would have to say no. It wasn&#039 ; t as meaningful to them. I think they were doing it because we did it, but as the opportunity has afforded themselves, afforded itself for them, uh, they don&#039 ; t participate. I mean, neither one of them were--came to Passover. Uh, my son was out of town, but my daughter didn&#039 ; t come to Passover at our house. Um, so. DONAHUE: I, somebody else we interviewed for this project talked about how, because of living in a majority-Christian culture, that Christmas was sort of challenging for him, because there&#039 ; s this sort of, the, the decorate your house phenomenon, and the have a Christmas tree phenomenon, that there was some social pressure to do those things. Um, was that ever a factor for you, or-- BAKER: It really wasn&#039 ; t-- DONAHUE: --for your children? BAKER: I mean, we, my wife always made a point of decorating for Hanukkah, um, and my son was married for about three years, and, uh, she wasn&#039 ; t Jewish, they were married by a rabbi, by John Adland, as a matter of fact, but I think that, during those years, there might have been a Christmas tree up, um, I didn&#039 ; t object, I couldn&#039 ; t say anything, my wife who, uh, grew up in more--many of my wife&#039 ; s friends were, uh, not Jewish, so she always was around a Christmas tree when she was much younger, so to her it wasn&#039 ; t as difficult as it was for me, um, but, as I said, we gave them the tools, and what they do as adults is what they&#039 ; re going to do. I can&#039 ; t change it. So. But no, I, I don&#039 ; t think that there was much pressure on us, as far as Christmas. DONAHUE: Yeah. And then have you had any kind of relationship with the synagogue? I know your grandfather was a founder of it. BAKER: Well, I was listening to my father&#039 ; s response to that. And when I was growing up, I knew practically no one from the synagogue. Um, there were a few people that I knew because they were old Lexingtonians, and their families had kind--our families had kind of crossed paths, and so I, there were a few. But there weren&#039 ; t very many. Um, a--and it&#039 ; s really sad, for a community the size of Lexington, the Jewish community the size of Lexington, that there were these two entities whose paths very rarely crossed. That&#039 ; s not the case, now, because I think the, the religious schools do more things together, and I think there&#039 ; s a--more activities between the two congregations than there once was. And a lot of it depends on the rabbinic leadership. If the rabbinic leadership, if they don&#039 ; t, if there&#039 ; s not a good relationship between the two rabbis, it&#039 ; s a challenge for the two congregations to do things together. Uh, the old Lexington, it was us and them. There&#039 ; s an influx of new families who don&#039 ; t have the history from forty, fifty, sixty years ago, and they say, &quot ; This is foolish. We are too small, our kids need to know each other, we need to interact.&quot ; So there&#039 ; s a much better relationship, today, than there was when I was growing up, no question about it. DONAHUE: Was that an issue that you addressed during your presidency of the, of the board? BAKER: (sighs). Not really. We had our own problems, and we didn&#039 ; t, you know, I, that was not a h--that was not one of the priorities that I had. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What about involvement with other Jewish organizations in the area, like the Jewish Federation, were you involved with-- BAKER: --well, when I was growing up, Federation was strictly a fundraising entity. Uh, and it&#039 ; s only been in the last twenty-five years that, uh, they have a camp, they have a social worker, uh, they have an executive director, and they&#039 ; ve expanded their horizons, as far as what they were, what they&#039 ; re doing, um. But, as I said, for the vast majority of the time, it was just a, um, fundraising, uh, opportunity. And it was t--pretty much run by, uh, local or individual members, it wasn&#039 ; t run by, uh, an organization as it is now, where they have their own board, and their own executive director, and uh, things of that nature, so. For--I mean, in a community of our size, there&#039 ; re only so many people that are willing to be leaders. And the Federation, from my perspective, was draining people from being either temple leaders or synagogue leaders. Uh, so during my time in the late eighties and, and nineties, I think there was a certain adversarial relationship, because if they found somebody that was talented enough to be a leader, they didn&#039 ; t necessarily share. Because there wasn&#039 ; t enough time, if somebody was working, to be involved with Federation, and be involved with temple as well. And it-- DONAHUE: Yeah, that&#039 ; s an interesting point. BAKER: And, and that made it very difficult, as far as training leaders. I became president of the congregation in, in the, when I was thirty-eight, because the congregation, our congregation, Temple Adath Israel, split over a rabbi. And many of those young families that were, should have been in positions of leadership, went to the synagogue. And so all of a sudden there was a void among leaders in our congregation. And that&#039 ; s the reason I commented that, now that we&#039 ; ve gotten people other than Jonathan Miller, who&#039 ; s in his forties, other than getting people, uh, we&#039 ; re getting back to the people, getting people in their fifties and sixties, which is, uh, much better as far as I&#039 ; m concerned. Because they&#039 ; re just, there are only so many ways that somebody in their thirties can be pulled. Well, if you, if Federation is trying to pull people, and the temple&#039 ; s trying to pull people, and the, the pool of prospective leaders is shrinking, then you can see that it just, makes it difficult. So sometimes it becomes adversarial, which is unfortunate. DONAHUE: What was the split over the rabbi that you mentioned? BAKER: Um, this man&#039 ; s name was Bill Leffler, uh, there was uh, there were some families that were not happy with the way he was working with the youth, and that just spilled over to a variety of other issues. Um, Bill came when I was fifteen, because I was confirmed by Bill, and he resigned when I was treasurer of the congregation, so that was 1985, 1986, uh, so he was here for thirty years. And it split the congregation, uh, there was not another congregation formed, which happens in many cities, but we lost some really good people who should have been officers of the congregation. So it sped up the process, for me and many of my contemporaries, and it&#039 ; s taken us fifteen years to work through that, to finally get to, uh, some wiser people who&#039 ; ve had--some more mature people, let&#039 ; s put it that way. (laughs). DONAHUE: Okay. Um, is there anything that you would change about your relationship with Judaism, looking back? BAKER: (pause). Not that I&#039 ; m aware of. Um, I was immersed when it was critical for my ch--family, uh, I have--Ruth and I have kind of withdrawn from certain aspects of it, uh, the educational aspect is not important, as important to me, now, as it was twenty-five years ago, um, the social aspect is important, uh, but our f--most of our other friends don&#039 ; t participate. They&#039 ; re members, but aren&#039 ; t necessarily active either, and, I remember when I was in leadership, and I was seeing what my parents were, were doing, and how they were pulling back, and their contemporar--their friends were pulling back, and I said, &quot ; This isn&#039 ; t fair to us, we need them,&quot ; well, now I&#039 ; m doing exactly what my parents did, so. It&#039 ; s unfortunate. But I can&#039 ; t change it. DONAHUE: But you gave, you gave a lot of, a lot of your life. BAKER: Well, I&#039 ; m still on the board. DONAHUE: Oh, okay. BAKER: Thirty-five years later. DONAHUE: Yeah. BAKER: So. DONAHUE: Is there anything else that I haven&#039 ; t asked you about, that you&#039 ; d like to add? BAKER: No. You&#039 ; ve done a wonderful job. DONAHUE: You&#039 ; ve done a wonderful job. (laughs). BAKER: Well, I don&#039 ; t know about that. You&#039 ; ve done a wonderful job--(laughs)--so. DONAHUE: Thank you so much for coming, and spending the time today. BAKER: You&#039 ; re very welcome. How does one get a copy of this or, you said you, it was available on their website, or whatever? DONAHUE: Yeah. BAKER: How does one do that, so that if someone in my family was foolish enough to say, &quot ; We would like to see your interview,&quot ; that uh. DONAHUE: Yeah. Are you still recording? Guess we, guess we could stop and have this conversation. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh062_jk022_baker_ohm.xml 2016oh062_jk022_baker_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh062_jk022_baker_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Benjamin Baker, May 13, 2016 Description An account of the resource Ben Baker describes his family's history, primarily focusing on his mother's side. His maternal grandfather, who was originally from New York, owned a clothing store in Lexington on the corner of N. Mill Street and E. Main Street, which remained open until sometime in the 1950s. Baker's paternal grandparents practiced Orthodox Judaism before immigrating from Poland. After arriving in the United States, however, Morris Baker helped found Ohavay Zion Synagogue in 1912. After his death in 1946, Baker's maternal grandmother attended Temple Adath Israel with her children, in part because it was difficult to maintain a more strict Jewish practice in a small Southern town. Baker describes working in the family business, Baker Iron & Metal, from customer service and clerical work during the summer as a child in 1964 to helping run the business full-time after graduating college in 1972. Holidays were a highlight for Baker during his childhood because they always involved large family gatherings. In recent years, however, Baker has had to start inviting friends over for holidays because many members of his family are unable to attend due to location or disability. He also discusses his Jewish education and identity and how it affected his childhood experiences, from missing school during the High Holidays and being unable to attend events on Friday nights. He became a member of Temple Adath Israel when he returned to Lexington in 1972 and quickly took on a leadership role. Although the role of Judaism in Baker's life was initially to meet other Jewish contemporaries, it has evolved into a spiritual force in his life. He describes the changes in Reform Judaism as a reaction to assimilation and intermarriage, trends in Temple attendance throughout the decades, and the relationship between Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh062_jk022 Subject The topic of the resource Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Religion Worship (Judaism) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/d122ddaaa2f64176d4a7137beb04920b.jpeg 7accaf2343b56be764f84c75832e0d5e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Martin Kaplan Interview Keyword Discrimination. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Family histories. Jewish families. OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh059_jk021 Interview with Martin Kaplan, May 12, 2016 2016oh059_jk021 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Lexington (Ky.) Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Religion University of Kentucky. Medical Center Physicians--Kentucky Military service, Voluntary--United States. United States. Army Air Forces Medical education Universities and colleges. Discrimination. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Family histories. Jewish families. Martin Kaplan Janice Crane 1:|20(7)|42(3)|61(18)|93(10)|118(5)|143(5)|164(12)|173(13)|184(3)|194(3)|204(14)|212(13)|229(7)|241(2)|255(2)|271(10)|279(3)|299(9)|311(4)|331(3)|345(10)|360(3)|387(8)|404(12)|419(11)|443(3)|455(8)|468(1)|479(2)|492(6)|507(3)|520(2)|539(1)|547(1)|559(7)|585(4)|595(15)|608(5)|621(3)|638(3)|652(12)|661(5)|669(10)|686(4)|698(12)|711(8)|720(13)|739(14)|758(8)|773(2)|793(9)|801(10)|809(9)|819(13)|832(11)|844(6)|859(13)|878(14)|889(2)|903(6)|914(2)|926(3)|940(3)|950(3)|969(4)|981(4)|989(14)|999(10)|1009(13)|1024(10)|1034(3)|1046(13)|1056(3)|1067(2)|1077(11)|1084(13)|1095(13)|1106(16)|1113(15)|1127(1)|1145(10)|1160(13)|1169(2) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253328350&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family history and Jewish life growing up in New York City For official purposes, today is May the 12th, 2016. My name is Janice Crane. And I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewi, Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I'm honored to be here today with Dr. Martin Kaplan. So let's begin. For the record, what was your name at birth? Dr. Martin Kaplan was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1928 and raised in the Bronx, New York City. Both of his parents, Samuel (born in 1899) and Clara Kaplan worked as school teachers. His father was a Russian immigrant from a village named Olshan near Vilna, Lithuania. Dr. Kaplan has one brother, Ray Kaplan. Dr. Kaplan has 3 children, Janet Kaplan, Lisa (Kaplan) Ward, and David Kaplan. All three children were born to his first wife, Hazel (Nickie) Kaplan. His second and current wife's named is Odette Saada Kaplan. Both of Dr. Kaplan's parents were raised in Orthodox Jewish homes but became more liberal with their Judaism in their own homes. Dr. Kaplan recalls lighting Shabbat candles, having a bar mitzvah, and keeping kosher at home, but seldom attended synagogue. He also discusses some systemic anti-Semitism within both the Dupont company and Columbia University with respect to their reluctance to accept many Jews into their organizations. Bar mitzvahs ; Brooklyn (N.Y.) ; Canarsie (N.Y.) ; Clara Kaplan ; Clara Sussman ; Columbia University ; David Kaplan ; DuPont ; Flushing (N.Y.) ; Hazel &quot ; Nickie&quot ; (Nixon) Kaplan ; Hebrew School ; High Holy Days ; Jacob Ward ; Janet Kaplan ; Jersey City (N.J.) ; Kosher ; Lisa (Kaplan) Ward ; Morocco ; Odette Kaplan ; Orthodox Judaism ; Pushelat (Lithuania) ; Queens (N.Y.) ; Ray Kaplan ; Romania ; Samuel A. Kaplan ; Shtetl ; Syracuse University ; The Bronx (N.Y.) ; Vilna (Lithuania) ; Yiddish Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 40.8447819, -73.8648268 17 The Bronx, New York http://imgur.com/D0WiuqC Dr. Martin and Odette Kaplan 884 Undergraduate studies at Syracuse University in the 1940s Okay. Where did you attend undergraduate school? And what did you study? After graduating from DeWitt Clinton High School, Dr. Kaplan attended the City College of New York for one year. He then transferred to Syracuse University, his father's alma mater. Kaplan majored in chemistry and was persuaded to become a doctor by one of his professors. He was a member of various clubs in order to expand his resume for medical school. He spent some time campaigning for third party presidential candidate, Henry Wallace, in the 1948 election. Brooklyn College ; Chemistry Major (Syracuse University) ; City College ; City College of New York ; French Club ; Harry Truman ; Henry Wallace (1948) ; Hunter College ; Queens College ; Richard Nixon ; Syracuse University College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; College students--Social networks ; Universities and colleges. 43.03841949257998, -76.13536033546552 17 Syracuse University https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Henry-A.-Wallace-Townsend.jpeg Henry Wallace 1325 Time in medical school at SUNY Downstate Medical Center / experiences in the U.S. military I happen to be personally aware that you are, although retired now, a medical doctor who specialized in allergies and immunology. Dr. Kaplan went to medical school at State University of New York Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, New York. He completed an internship at Long Island College Hospital and began a residency in pediatrics at Brooklyn Jewish Hospital. He joined the United States Air Force between the Korean and Vietnam wars because of the likelihood he would be drafted as a doctor. He was stationed at Greenville, South Carolina where he would later meet his first wife Nicki Nixon. Although he wanted to work in pediatrics while he was stationed there, he instead worked in obstetrics delivering babies. After his time in the military was over, he moved back to Syracuse to finish his pediatric residency only to add an additional year of residency in allergy medicine. While in Greenville, he attended the local reform synagogue. His wife converted to Judaism through the rabbi at the conservative synagogue in Greenville. Dr. Kaplan adds an anecdote about how he became a Yankee fan. Allergists ; Brooklyn Jewish Hospital ; Conservative Judaism ; Doctor draft ; Greenville (S.C.) ; Immunology ; Jewish conversion ; Korean War ; Long Island College Hospital ; Long Island College of Medicine ; Mel Ott ; New York Giants ; New York Yankees ; Obstetrics ; Reform Synagogue ; State University of New York Downstate Medical Center ; Syracuse (N.Y.) ; United States Air Force ; Vietnam War Jews--Identity. ; Medical education ; Military service, Voluntary--United States. ; Physicians ; United States. Army Air Forces ; Universities and colleges. ; Worship (Judaism) 40.655431, -73.945718 17 State University of New York Downstate Medical Center https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-waymarking-images/e2e55e63-13e9-4dd3-9c1d-b90dca2b6934_d.jpg Sign commemorating the Donaldson Air Force Base in South Carolina. 1967 Lexington, Kentucky medical community in the 1950s and 1960s When did you move to Kentucky? Dr. Kaplan moved to Lexington, Kentucky in 1959 where he joined an allergy practice with Dr. Maurice Kaufmann and Dr. Lloyd Mayer. He discusses the medical community that existed in Lexington at this time and the Jewish doctors that he could recall. Soon after he moved to Lexington, the University of Kentucky began its own medical center. The Fayette Medical Society began as a result and its first president was a Jew named Dr. Rankin. Dr. Franklin Moosnick ; Dr. Jack Hill ; Dr. Ken Gerson ; Dr. Larry Hemmings ; Dr. Lloyd Mayer ; Dr. Maurice Kaufmann ; Dr. Neven Gardner ; Dr. Rankin ; Fayette County Medical Society ; Lexington Medical Society ; University of Kentucky Medical Center Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Physicians--Kentucky ; University of Kentucky. Medical Center 38.031695, -84.50909230000002 17 University of Kentucky Medical Center 2707 Involvement in the Lexington Jewish community 1959-present Describe the importance of connecting to some part of the Jewish community, when you arrived in Lexington. Upon moving to Lexington, Dr. Kaplan joined Temple Adath Israel, the only reform temple in the city. He also joined B'nai Brith. He became president of the congregation at one point when there was an attempted &quot ; uprising&quot ; against the Rabbi of the time--Rabbi Leffler. He goes on to name the different rabbis of the congregation over his years of membership. He discusses his current wife's membership in the Hadassah organization. Hadassah has a disproportionately active chapter in Lexington in relation to the total population of the city due to the leadership of its current members. Dr. Kaplan then discusses how the Jewish community of Lexington helped support his Jewish lifestyle with resources such as the Temple, the Federation, and Jewish Summer Camps for children. B'nai Brith ; Camp Young Judea ; Dr. Bang ; Dr. Ken Gerson ; Dr. Milt Gellin ; Dr. Stan Saxe ; Gail Cohen ; Hadassah ; Jewish Federation ; Judy Saxe ; Kosher ; Lexington Medical Society ; Marilyn Moosnick ; Odette Kaplan ; Rabbi Adland ; Rabbi Leffler ; Rabbi Marc Kline ; Rabbi Roberts ; Rabbi Rothman ; Shabbat ; Tel Yehuda ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, Ky.) ; University of Kentucky ; VA Hospital Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0356369, -84.48284489999997 17 Temple Adath Israel, Lexington, Kentucky https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Hadassa_ein_karem.jpg Hadassah Ein Karem 3722 Dr. Kaplan's Jewish identity How did your relationship to Judaism and your practices differ from that of your parents? Dr. Kaplan explains his relationship with Judaism in comparison to his parents' and his children's. He also describes the evolution of his Jewish identity as he has moved throughout life from The Bronx to Greenville, South Carolina, to eventually Lexington, Kentucky. He describes his support of Zionism and his family's connection to the Holocaust growing up. His wife, Odette, has family that immigrated to Israel from Morocco in the 1950s and 1960s so since his marriage to her, his support of Israel and Zionism has grown. He also tells two stories. The first about calling a friend in New York where his son asked if Dr. Kaplan knew Daniel Boone and the other about visiting the rabbi that married him and his first wife in Israel. He concludes by talking about family that he found later in life that survived the Holocaust and immigrated into Israel. Arabs ; Daniel Boone ; David Kaplan ; Fess Parker ; French Village ; Greenville (S.C.) ; Hamburg (Germany) ; Holocaust ; Israel ; Jacob Ward ; Jerusalem ; Jews ; Lisa (Kaplan) Ward ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Morocco ; Odette Kaplan ; World War II ; Zionism Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion ; Religion and politics ; Worship (Judaism) 31.78185, 35.23552700000005 17 Islamic (Arab) Quarter of Jerusalem https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Fess_Parker_as_Daniel_Boone.JPG Fess Parker as Daniel Boone interview Dr. Martin Kaplan was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1928 and raised in the Bronx, New York City. Both of his parents, Samuel (born in 1899) and Clara Kaplan worked as school teachers. His father was a Russian immigrant from a village named Olshan near Vilna, Lithuania. Both of Dr. Kaplan's parents were raised in Orthodox Jewish homes but became more liberal with their Judaism in their own homes. Dr. Kaplan recalls lighting Shabbat candles, having a bar mitzvah, and keeping kosher at home, but seldom attended synagogue. He also discusses systemic anti-Semitism. After graduating from DeWitt Clinton High School, Dr. Kaplan attended the City College of New York for one year. He then transferred to Syracuse University, his father's alma mater. Dr. Kaplan went to medical school at State University of New York Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, New York. He joined the United States Air Force between the Korean and Vietnam wars because of the likelihood he would be drafted as a doctor. He was stationed at Greenville, South Carolina where he would later meet his first wife Nicki Nixon. His wife converted to Judaism through the rabbi at the conservative synagogue in Greenville. Dr. Kaplan moved to Lexington, Kentucky in 1959 where he joined an allergy practice with Dr. Maurice Kaufmann and Dr. Lloyd Mayer. He discusses the medical community that existed in Lexington at this time and the Jewish doctors that he could recall. Upon moving to Lexington, Dr. Kaplan joined Temple Adath Israel, the only reform temple in the city. He also joined B'nai Brith. He became president of the congregation at one point when there was an attempted &quot ; uprising&quot ; against the Rabbi of the time--Rabbi Leffler. He goes on to name the different rabbis of the congregation over his years of membership. He discusses his current wife's membership in the Hadassah organization. Dr. Kaplan explains his relationship with Judaism in comparison to his parents' and his children's. He describes his support of Zionism and his family's connection to the Holocaust growing up. CRANE: For official purposes, today is May the 12th, 2016. My name is Janice Crane. And I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky oral history project, funded by the Jewi-Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I&#039 ; m honored to be here today with Dr. Martin Kaplan. So let&#039 ; s begin. For the record, what was your name at birth? KAPLAN: Martin Paul Kaplan. CRANE: And when and where were you born? KAPLAN: Brooklyn, New York. To be exact, I only lived there for one year. CRANE: Okay. Where did you go after that? KAPLAN: Queens, Flushing, New York, for one year, and then the Bronx. There was a reason for the--My father was a high school teacher, just starting out. He was transferred from a school in Brooklyn to a school in Queens and then the Bronx. So then we stayed in the Bronx. CRANE: What were your parents&#039 ; names? KAPLAN: Uh, Samuel A. Kaplan and Clara Kaplan. CRANE: And what was your mother&#039 ; s maiden name? KAPLAN: Clara Sussman. CRANE: Where were they from and what were their occupations? You&#039 ; ve mentioned that your father was a schoolteacher. KAPLAN: Yeah. He wa(clears his throat)--he was born in Russia. Was actually the Lithuanian part of Russia, at that time. And he came over here at age seven. And he went to Syracuse University too, at the College of Forestry. And then he became a schoolteacher, a year or two before I was born. My mother was born here, in U -US, lived CRANE: And did your mother have an occupation outside the home? KAPLAN: Uh, yeah. She became school-schoolteacher, elementary schoolteacher, uh, which she did before she got married. CRANE: Uh, in speaking with your grandson, who happens to be here as well, listening to us today, Jacob Ward, he had also mentioned that your--uh, part of your family had come from Lithuania. And I was just curious as to where in Lithuania they might have come from. KAPLAN: It was a village near Vilna. And I have the name o&#039 ; the village at home but I couldn&#039 ; t tell ya. CRANE: I was just, uh, sort of curious, because my family roots were also from a shtetl in Lithuania called Pushelat, like many of the Jewish people around Lexington. KAPLAN: Yeah. CRANE: And I was always wondering if there&#039 ; s just one more family that&#039 ; s somehow connected. Uh, did your parents&#039 ; or grandparents&#039 ; names change, when they came to this country? KAPLAN: No. CRANE: Okay. Uh, do you have siblings? And if so, what are their names and ages relative to you? KAPLAN: Yeah. My brother, Ray, is seven years younger than me CRANE: --okay KAPLAN: --lives in Philadelphia. (coughs) CRANE: Just the two of you? KAPLAN: Yes. CRANE: Okay. And what is your wife&#039 ; s full name? KAPLAN: Odette Kaplan. Her middle name is Saada, S a a d a. CRANE: And like you said, she was born in Morocco. KAPLAN: Yes. CRANE: Okay. And I know you were married prior to--uh, to Odette. And what was your first wife&#039 ; s name? KAPLAN: Uh, Nickie . CRANE: And her maiden name. KAPLAN: Her maiden name was, uh--Oh. WARD: No, was Nixon, right? KAPLAN: No, Nixon was--&#039 ; Cause they change--Yeah, it was Nixon. That&#039 ; s right. Yeah. CRANE: Okay. And this is for the real test. And the names and ages of your children and your grandchildren, Jacob being one of them. KAPLAN: Names and ages, not birth year but just age. CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: Well, Jacob, I would say, is twenty-two or close to it--(laughs)--Lisa is uh, she was born in 1960. That would be, uh CRANE: --you can do the year KAPLAN: --&#039 ; 40--1940--1960, she was born. CRANE: Okay. KAPLAN: So she&#039 ; s--forty--fifty-six. Yeah. And Janet was born in 1951, so she would be 65. CRANE: Those are grandchildre--? Those are KAPLAN: --those are children CRANE: --children. Okay. And you have more children? KAPLAN: Three children. WARD: An KAPLAN: --and then, uh--because my wife has children. CRANE: Okay. WARD: And then Dave. What year was David born? KAPLAN: Well, let&#039 ; s see. We were talking about oh! Lisa, Jacob, and David. David was born in 1971. CRANE: Okay. KAPLAN: So he is 46, yeah. CRANE: How would you describe your parents&#039 ; , both your mother and your father&#039 ; s, relationship to Judaism? KAPLAN: Well, my father was born into a Orthodox family. His parents--at least his father was very strictly Orthodox. Uh, so that&#039 ; s the background. I guess that&#039 ; s what you asked. Because my father did not continue to be Orthodox. My mother was born into a typically Orthodox family, not as JD: --do you--do y KAPLAN: --not as strict-- JD: --do you recall spending time with your grandparents and what it was like, uh, spending time in the Orthodox homes? KAPLAN: I never spent much time with my-- WARD: --uh-- KAPLAN: --paternal grandparents. Uh, let&#039 ; s see. My grandfather lived in part of Brooklyn called Canarsie, uh, visited occasionally. He was, uh he spoke a little English, mostly Yiddish--uh, obviously. Uh, and, uh, my grandmother died when I was a--two years old, so, of course, I didn&#039 ; t know her. But I was never very close to that c or grandfather. And my mother CRANE: --do you speak Yiddish? KAPLAN: Do I? No. My parents did not speak Yiddish, even though their brothers and sisters, uh, did. Uh, well, at least my father&#039 ; s brother and sister spoke Yiddish. Uh, my mother&#039 ; s--my mother&#039 ; s parents came from Romania. And, uh--uh, but she was born here, aft after they arrived. She had five--five siblings. And that was a--I mean, nominally Orthodox. Uh, but I don&#039 ; t think my maternal grandfather went to the synagogue very often. Does that cover what you asked? CRANE: Um-hm. What was Judaism in your family like, growing up with your parents? KAPLAN: Well, I went to what was called Hebrew school. I mean, it was typical Hebrew school, and, uh, an hour, uh, in the afternoon after regular school, where--did--mostly r read from the Siddur. Didn&#039 ; t learn much Hebrew language. But that was the way it was done then. And then I had a bar mitzvah, at the usual time. And, uh, after that I never went to the synagogue, unless I was visiting an aunt or somebody who is going to the synagogue and we joined them. But my--my parents did not go to the synagogue. And, uh, my mother kept strictly kosher in the home. That was the main manifestation of Judaism. CRANE: And holidays? Did you observe the holidays? KAPLAN: Well, I&#039 ; d say we didn&#039 ; t observe the holidays. In fact, on the High Holy Days, my father would go to school and teach, even though the high school was, uh, probably seventy-five, eighty percent Jewish and the classes were very small. They didn&#039 ; t call of school but, uh--And, uh, as I recall, sometimes I would go to high school during the High Holy Days, also. It varied. So you could see, I was not very observant. CRANE: What did your parents teach you about Judaism? And how what you learned from them impact--impacted your life. KAPLAN: I don&#039 ; t think, uh, I ever discussed Judaism with my parents. I don&#039 ; t think it ever came up. Except occasionally you&#039 ; d talk about anti-Semitism. Uh, but, uh, as I said, si since they weren&#039 ; t very observant, uh, uh, there was no--uh, no, there was--there were no expectations. Uh, never--never came up, that I can recall. CRANE: What--what did you all discuss about anti-Semitism? KAPLAN: Well, there were incidents. My mother described a couple of, uh, incidents where he--uh, she was harassed, growing up. Uh, she grew up in Jersey City, New Jersey. And, uh, that made an impression on her. I think that that was always in the back of her mind. Uh, and then, uh, of course, uh, when I was in high school, I mentioned the possibility that I might want to go in to engineering or science. And, of course, always came up that it was hard for Jews to get a job in, uh--in the major--uh, for instance, DuPont, which was a big company that hired chemists, uh, didn&#039 ; t hire Jews, or very few. And, uh, let&#039 ; s see. What were the other examples? Well, applying to college. I mean, I ex the only, uh, experiences I ever had--you didn&#039 ; t ask me--the only experience I ever had was in apply-applying to, uh--to college. &#039 ; Cause I applied to Columbia University and I had a top grade-point average but I wasn&#039 ; t accepted. And I learned that they had a quota system. They only took so many Jews from the Bronx and so many from--(Crane laughs) --you know, they didn&#039 ; t want to be inundated. That was always the fear, in some of the top universities. Of course, that--you know, that&#039 ; s totally changed now. CRANE: Uh, that&#039 ; s uh interesting--uh, what is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual, growing up? KAPLAN: Did you say ritual? CRANE: Um-hm. Yes. KAPLAN: Well, I didn&#039 ; t grow up with any rituals, except, you know, I--I knew that we ate strictly kosher food. What other rituals? CRANE: Or what&#039 ; s your fondest memory, growing up--Jewish memory, growing up? KAPLAN: Fancy that you should ask me that, because I&#039 ; d never thought of it, as to whether I had any Jewish memories. You know, it was accepted. All m my family was entirely Jewish--(Ward coughs) -- and, uh, I didn&#039 ; t know very many non-Jews, either in school or anyplace. Uh CRANE: --I guess growing up New York makes it a little bit different, because it&#039 ; s more common there to be Jewish than KAPLAN: --yes. Well, as an example, I went to a high school which was about 80 percent Jewish. Now at that time, the Bronx--the population o&#039 ; the Bronx was about 50 percent Jewish-- F1: --uh KAPLAN: --more than any other borough. I mean, New York City was about a third Jewish, at that time. But, uh--And the neighborhood we lived in was almost entirely Jewish. So, uh, that&#039 ; s--you know, you grew up in apartment houses and, uh, the apar-partment residents were almost all Jewish. Only the superintendent, or the super, as we called him, wasn&#039 ; t Jewish. So I--I don&#039 ; t have any other, uh, strictly Jewish memories, until I went away from home. CRANE: Okay. Where did you attend undergraduate school? And what did you study? KAPLAN: Well, I went, for a year, to City College-at City College of New York, uh, which at that time had zero tuition. Maybe it still does. I don&#039 ; t know much about the present City College. You know, the C the College of the City of New York, as they called it at that time, had Brooklyn College, Queens College, Hunter College, and City College--City College. And--and an interesting place. But then I decided that I wanted to go out of town. And I transferred to, uh, Syracuse University, for three years. CRANE: And what did you study while you were there? KAPLAN: I majored in chemistry. CRANE: That&#039 ; s quite a challenge. What involvement, if any, did you have in Jewish organizations, while you were in college? Were you in a Jewish fraternity or--? KAPLAN: No, uh, no Jewish fraternity, although they were there. There were three, uh--two or three. Uh, did I go to services? There were Jewish services occasionally, at a building--I don&#039 ; t think I ever went to--to Jewish services or had any connection--My roommates and I had--about three different roommates, while I was there. They were Jewish. As a matter of fact, the university had a habit, when they--when they, uh, reserved rooms in a--in a, uh, residence hall, dormitory, they would, uh, attempt to pair Jews together. You know, there were two students in a--in a room. And although I never heard it, uh, officially--but they did assign Jewish students together. But I don&#039 ; t recall any other Jewish involvement, at all. CRANE: It&#039 ; s interesting. Because New York--you know, you grew up in such a very Jewish presence there. KAPLAN: Yeah. CRANE: And the university you picked also had a very strong Jewish presence. And so, uh, perhaps it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s more challenging to think of something that&#039 ; s uniquely Jewish, because you were sorta surrounded by that. KAPLAN: Well, that&#039 ; s true. I mean, maybe you&#039 ; ll ask me that question. But I didn&#039 ; t really show much curiosity, until I lived in a place where there were very few Jews-- CRANE: --and we will get there-- KAPLAN: --which was when I was--That&#039 ; s when I was in the Air Force. Yeah. CRANE: Uh, describe any involvement you had, when you were in college, in non-Jewish organizations. What was your university experience like, besides studying a lot to--(clears her throat)--do well in chemistry? KAPLAN: Oh, let&#039 ; s see. I was a member of a few clubs, was a member o&#039 ; the French Club and, uh--Let&#039 ; s see. There was another club. I went out for track and field. That&#039 ; s not a club. But, you know, I don&#039 ; t re remember. CRANE: That&#039 ; s okay. KAPLAN: I think I was a member of one or two clubs. &#039 ; Cause I knew I needed to have a couple extracurricular activities, when I was applying--I was applying, uh, for a graduate student or, later, m switched to medical school. But, uh, yeah, I went out--uh, I did some track. CRANE: What was your experience like? I heard, uh, little glimpses that there might have been some political aspirations, when you were in college, this KAPLAN: --well, no. I went out and campaigned for Henry Wallace CRANE: --ah!-- KAPLAN: --joined a group, which went to a few places. Do you remember Henry Wallace? CRANE: No, I don&#039 ; t. KAPLAN: He was a third-party candidate in 1948, left-wing. That&#039 ; s when Truman beat Nixon. But, uh, nobody expected Ni Truman to do very well and this third party developed, of people who di didn&#039 ; t think that Truman was, uh, liberal enough. So I worked with them, for a year. CRANE: S- so the third party was more liberal than ? KAPLAN: --than Truman&#039 ; s p yeah, than the Democratic Party. Yes. I don&#039 ; t even know if the party had a name. Maybe it was the Progressive Party or--But, uh--Yeah, uh, uh, Henry Wallace. He was an interesting person. CRANE: How well did he do? KAPLAN: Didn&#039 ; t do as well. At first they thought he was going to do very well. And, you know, Henry Wallace had been vice president, for one term, until Roosevelt changed vice presidents. And then he became Secretary of Agriculture. And he was very well known. But, uh, he ended up not getting more than a f- few percent--uh, small percentage o&#039 ; the vote. CRANE: What--what do you feel was the most significant part of your college experience? KAPLAN: Mm. That&#039 ; s a good question. I would say making friendships. I met a number of peo small number. But, uh--Also, I had--I had jobs, part-time jobs, which were interesting. CRANE: What did you do? KAPLAN: I don&#039 ; t&#039 ; know how much they impressed me. But, uh CRANE: --what did you do? KAPLAN: I worked in the kitchen and dining--dormitory dining area, serving food, maybe cleaning up in the back too. And I worked as a--an assistant to the man who--to the--in the laboratory, where they set up experiments for general chemistry courses. And I would assist in, uh--in setting up the equipment. CRANE: Hm. I happen to be personally aware that you are, although retired now, a medical doctor who specialized in allergies and immunology. KAPLAN: Yes. CRANE: However, I&#039 ; m not totally clear where you went to medical school and where you did your internship and residency or, for that matter, how you decided on your area of specialty. So for the record, where did you go to medical school? KAPLAN: You know, you didn&#039 ; t ask me why I chose medicine. CRANE: I did, just then-- KAPLAN: --why-- CRANE: --why you d KAPLAN: --why-- CRANE: Oh! Why did you? KAPLAN: --why. Because I started out in chemistry. CRANE: Oh. Okay. And, uh, I had a professor, in a basic chemistry course, who said, &quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re such a good student. But why do you want to be a chemist?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Chemists&quot ; --you know--&quot ; don&#039 ; t make much money. Here I am. I&#039 ; m an instructor.&quot ; He was in the department. And he&#039 ; s only make a small salary. Professors were not very well paid, back then. He said--he said, &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t you go to medical school?&quot ; Well, I--that was in the back of my mind. Because I still thought--I didn&#039 ; t know if I wanted to do that. And I was majoring in chemistry and I thought it would be interesting to--uh, to go on in chemistry. And as a matter of fact, I did--I--I started in graduate school, at Purdue, to work for a master&#039 ; s in chemistry. But in the meantime, my medical school acceptance came in, late. So I switched at that point, which made my mother happy, of course-- CRANE: --I&#039 ; ll bet!-- KAPLAN: --maybe my--(laughs)--father too. CRANE: So where did you go to medical school? KAPLAN: Uh, it was called State University of New York Downstate Medical Center, in Brooklyn. That was the first year it was called that. It was taken over. The--the medical school was taken over by the state of New York. It had been Long Island College of Medicine, a private medical school, uh. An -and the state took over that medical school and also the Syracuse Medical School. And, uh, that became--Syracuse became Upstate and the Brooklyn medical school became Downstate. CRANE: And you were there for four years? KAPLAN: Four years, yes. CRANE: And then you did residency and internships where? KAPLAN: Well, I started my internship at, uh--it was called Long Island College Hospital, which was part o&#039 ; the s medical school system. That was a internship for a year. And then I started a residency in pediatrics, at, uh, a hospital called, uh, Brooklyn Jewish Hospital, which no longer exists. And about halfway through, I was, uh--uh, I had to apply for a commission. There was a doctor draft, at that time. This was between Korea and Vietnam. And there was no dra the, uh, draft had been discontinued for everybody else, uh, except for doctors and dentists, because there was a shortage. So the law said that doctors could be drafted. But to avoid being drafted as a private, you applied for a commission--which is what I did and got the commission, and was in the Air Force for two years. CRANE: And when you say you applied for a commission, does tha you--you go in as a captain or--? Uh, I mean, you go in as KAPLAN: --I went in as a, uh, first lieutenant. CRANE: First lieut KAPLAN: --and then, after a while, they changed the law. The doctors all became captains. So I became a captain. CRANE: In the Air Force. KAPLAN: In the Air Force, yes. CRANE: And where were you stationed? KAPLAN: Greenville, South Carolina. CRANE: Hm! Uh, tell me about your experience in Greenville, South Carolina, in the military. KAPLAN: I enjoyed it. I liked the military. I even considered staying in longer. Changed my mind. Uh, I had asked to be assigned to pediatric duty. Because, uh, at that time, some o&#039 ; the Air Force hospitals took care of children or other dependents. There were--and I guess they--some--military hospitals still do. But that wasn&#039 ; t a military hospital. It was just an airbase that had a medical unit. So I went in expecting to do pediatrics and, when I got there, they said, &quot ; Oh, we don&#039 ; t do pediatrics anymore. We send our children to town. But we do obstetrics and gynecology.&quot ; And, uh, the--they happened to need a, uh--an additional obstetrician. So they asked me would I like, uh, to do obstetrics, especially since I could take care o&#039 ; the babies in the nursery, as a pediatrician. So I said, yeah, that was better duty than working in the--uh, what they called the dispensary, you know, seeing all the airme-airmen as they came in with minor problems. So I--I did obstetrics, for almost the entire two years that I was in. Delivered a lot of babies. CRANE: When did you decide to become a, uh, allergist? KAPLAN: Allergist. Well, I considered staying i- in obstetrics. But then I ch decided to continue in pediatrics. And I went back to, uh, additional pediatric residency, in order to meet the requirements. And in my last year of pediatrics, I, uh, talked to a, uh, allergy specialist. And I ha I did my last year of, uh, pediatric residency in Syracuse, went back to Syracuse. And, uh, I got interested in allergy through this particular practice, especially. And, uh, I decided that I would take an extra year, uh, in allergy, so that I could do pediatrics with a subspecialty in allergy. By the time I finished allergy training, I found that, uh, it was easier to do allergy as a s as an allergist rather than as a pediatrician with allergy. So I did that. I looked for a position in allergy. And that&#039 ; s how I go came here. CRANE: Describe how or if your Jewishness impacted the time you spent in the service. KAPLAN: Yeah. CRANE: You were no longer around all the Jewish people that you had been in New York. KAPLAN: Yeah. You you&#039 ; re right. It impacted--uh, Greenville had a small Jewish population. And there were two synagogues, Reform and Conservative. And, uh, I started going to the Reform synagogue and met some people. And the other impact was that--uh, that I met my future wife while I was in the military. She was a nurse at the hospital where I was doing my where CRANE: --in South Carolina. KAPLAN: In Greenville, South Carolina. And, uh--and we got married, uh, shortly after--well, just within a week or so after, uh, I completed my duty. And, uh--and she had decided to convert to Judaism, which she did through a rabbi--a Conservative rabbi in--in Greenville. So we were married by that rabbi. CRANE: Okay. So before we get too much into your adult and your professional life or your move to Kentucky, is there anything unique we should know about your family background, your childhood years, or the time you spent in college or medical school or the military, that you haven&#039 ; t already shared, that you would like to? KAPLAN: Well, there must be. CRANE: You can always just-- KAPLAN: --I mean, there were a lot of little (laughs)--you know, I--I can remember little stories here and there. But as far as an important, uh, influence CRANE: --the stories are always good. KAPLAN: Well, there are little stories like how I became a Yankee fan and, uh--and, uh--Let&#039 ; s see. Well, medical school had--you know, there were always interesting occurrences. W CRANE: --how did you become a Yankee fan, first? KAPLAN: Well, the rabbi at the Hebrew school where I was attending was able to get a bunch o&#039 ; tickets for the Giant game, the New York Giants. Uh, or the New York Giants were--in New York then. Now they&#039 ; re in San Francisco. So I--I went along with a lot of my fellow students. And I sat next to one who--and I kn- knew very little about baseball. I think I was eight years old or nine years old. I was sitting next to this student friend who kept telling me how much he hates the Giants. See, uh, we were watching the Giant game. The Giants had Mel Ott and other top players. He said, &quot ; I hate the Giants. I love the Yankees.&quot ; So I went home and decided, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to be a Yankee fan too.&quot ; So from then on, I became interested in baseball and have followed the Yankees ever since CRANE: --good for you! KAPLAN: --loyal fan. CRANE: All right. When did you move to Kentucky? KAPLAN: Nineteen fifty-nine. CRANE: And what brought you here? KAPLAN: Well, when I was in my, uh--uh, I had a, uh, allergy fellowship in Washington, DC. And, uh, as I was there, I decided to look around, see where I could go into practice. I didn&#039 ; t necessarily, uh, want to stay in New York. In fact, I had the feeling I&#039 ; d like to leave New York--New York City. So I--uh, I looked at, uh, certain ads, uh, doctors who wanted an associate. And, uh, then I went to a--a convention, an allergy convention. I think it was in Chicago. And, uh, I got in touch--well, before I got there, I got in touch with two--I think three physicians who were looking for an associate, including Lexington. I talked to all of them. I decided I&#039 ; d like to see what the practice in Lexington was like. And I--I came here, flew here, first without my wife, jus just me. An and, uh, then later--well, I think I decided that that was a good position for me, here in Lexington. And then later, my wife and I flew, uh, here. And, uh, we confirmed that we&#039 ; d like to live here. My wife was happy about it. &#039 ; Cause she was from South Carolina. She thought, &quot ; Kentucky, well, that&#039 ; s, uh--that&#039 ; s like being back in the South.&quot ; CRANE: Definitely not New York. KAPLAN: (laughs) So, uh--Yeah, I was considering a practice in Connecticut, Stamford, Connecticut, which is not far from New Yor--And, uh--and so I&#039 ; ve been here ever since. I joined a practice. I don&#039 ; t know if you ever knew Maurice Kaufmann. That was before you saw me in practice. CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: Uh, his son is still active in the Jewish Community. CRANE: I remember him. Okay. So you were born in New York. You went to college and medical school in New York. KAPLAN: College CRANE: --New York KAPLAN: --well, New York state. CRANE: R KAPLAN: --I went to college at Syracuse. Yeah. CRANE: Okay. New York and Kentucky are very different, including the fact that, unlike Kentucky, New York has a very significant Jewish presence. So what were your considerations in moving here, if any? Were you concerned about what it was gonna be like? Or was your experience in South Carolina enough to make you feel comfortable leaving the big c the big city an ? KAPLAN: --oh, I looked into it. Because, uh, as I said, I became more interested in Judaism in South Carolina. And then, getting married, my wife being a converted Jew, it was imp--uh--portant for me--&quot ; I&#039 ; d better find out about how to continue interest in Judai &quot ; So I did look into it. Uh, I mean, like I&#039 ; m sure, when I was here, I, uh, asked about, uh, synagogues here in Lexington and Jewish population and so on. And it was satisfactory. CRANE: What kind of adjustments did you have to make, from living in New York to living in Kentucky? KAPLAN: Well, I really don&#039 ; t recall adjustments. It was easier living here. I liked it from the beginning. You know, it&#039 ; s, uh--was easy to get around, you know. There were no four to five-hour rides on the subway, here in Lexington. So, uh--but, as far as adjustments, uh, of course, I--I had, uh, to adjust being away from family. But I don&#039 ; t recall that it bothered me very much. It bothered my mother a whole lot. In fact, she couldn&#039 ; t understand it. When she told a friend or relative that her son had moved to Kentucky, they were astounded. Kentucky, no one knew about how especially a Jew would move to Kentucky. CRANE: Tell me about your medical practice. What was the structure like? You started with, uh, Dr. Kaufmann? KAPLAN: Yes. CRANE: And was it just the two of you? KAPLAN: No. He was in practice with Lloyd Mayer. Did you know Lloyd Mayer? Uh, they had been practicing together. And the three of us were practicing for two or three years. And then things happened and, uh, Lloyd Mayer left the practice and set up his own. He continued in solo practice, uh--No, no. H he was in solo practice for a year--then he took o uh, for a number of years. Then he took on an associate. Uh, Dr. Kaufmann and I were practicing, just the two of us, for about ten years. And then we took on an associate--and then later another associate in the practice. Uh, you know, we&#039 ; ve had additional MDs in the practice ever since. CRANE: I suspect that being a specialist means that many of the patients you saw were referrals from other physicians in the community. KAPLAN: Yeah, not only from Lexington, all over eastern and central Kentucky. Excuse me. CRANE: Since you were new to the community, how did you go about establishing relationships with other physicians in the area? KAPLAN: Well, through my senior partner. I mean, I--matter of fa I made an effort to visit a number of the physicians who were good referral sources. And, uh, you know, the number of MDs in Lexington was much smaller, at that time. And, uh, I got to know almost--almost all o&#039 ; them, at meetings and, uh, you know, just working together with patients. CRANE: Explain the positive or negative effects that being Jewish had on your practice, if any. KAPLAN: I don&#039 ; t think it had any effect. I m no one ever questioned--If there were doctors who didn&#039 ; t like Jews, they wouldn&#039 ; t sent patients to us. But they would CRANE: --did the Jewish--other Jewish doctors in Lexington send you more patients? KAPLAN: Uh, you know, there were so few. There was Dr. Moosnick. Uh, did you know him--Rosie Moosnick&#039 ; s father? CRANE: Uh, Franklin. KAPLAN: Franklin, yeah. He would refer a few patients. And, uh CRANE: --uh, he was lots of people&#039 ; s doctors, back then. KAPLAN: Oh! He was very much admired in the community, not just the--not just the, uh, Lexington community--uh, I mean, not just the Jewish community but the whole community. There was--there were a few--very few Jewish doctors, at the time. Of course, the University of Kentucky Medical Center was just getting started. And then, of course, the number of Jewish doctors increased--as it has to the present day--but--and those in practice too. There was one doctor--Rankin. Forget his first name. He was a Jewish doctor, an internist. And, uh, he became--uh, he was pretty well known in the community. He became, uh, president of the, uh, Fayette County--Now it&#039 ; s--It was called Fayette County--now it&#039 ; s the Lexington Medical S Society. And I remember his wife saying to me--(Ward coughs)--&quot ; Look at what&quot ; --so-and-so--&quot ; Rankin has accomplished. A Jew has become president o&#039 ; the Medical Society.&quot ; I mean, she thought was phenomenal. Maybe--Well, I don&#039 ; t think that, uh, even by that time--That wou -would have been fifteen years or so after I arrived, twenty years. Uh, I don&#039 ; t think there was very much anti-Semitism in the medical community. And, of course, it was becoming much less in every community, you know, and, uh, part of Lexing-Lexington society. But he became president o&#039 ; the Medical Society. Franklin became president o&#039 ; the Medical Society two years later. And, uh CRANE: --were they the only other Jewish physicians that were around then? KAPLAN: Thinking. No, there--there couldn&#039 ; t have been more than four or five. Of course, there were the three of us-- CRANE: --uh-- KAPLAN: --Kaufmann, Mayer, and Kaplan, all Jews, in allergy practice. And, uh, not too long after that, Ken Gerson went into practice. Did you know Ken Gerson? He was a--he was a Jewish allergist. CRANE: I don&#039 ; t remember that name. KAPLAN: Uh, so there were the four of us. Uh, now--now there are no Jewish allergists in Lexington, just--You know, allergy is a small practice. You know, there may be twelve allergist, all together, in--in Lexington. And, uh--(clears his throat)--I don&#039 ; t think an of &#039 ; em are Jewish now. CRANE: What was it like having, uh, Jewish partners in your practice? Was that more--I mean, more special or? KAPLAN: --no, I don&#039 ; t think it affected the practice at all. And, uh, in fact, it wasn&#039 ; t too many years after that we started taking on--we--we had Dr. Goiser, who only stayed with us a few years. And then we had--Larry Hemmings came, a few years after that, and then, after that, Jack Hill and Neven Gardner, who re both retired very recently, last summer. None of &#039 ; em were Jewish. And I don&#039 ; t think, uh, it made any difference whether my associates were Jewish or not. CRANE: Describe the importance of connecting to some part of the Jewish community, when you arrived in Lexington. You mentioned just a little bit about your wife, at the time, uh, converting and you wanting to stay connected, because that was sort of the right thing to do, to KAPLAN: --oh, right away, uh, I mean, we looked up--we joined Temple Adath Israel right way, upon arrival. And, uh, I became active, and my wife too, not too many--uh, qui shortly after that. I also joined B&#039 ; nai B&#039 ; rith, which was more active then, and became president within a couple years. CRANE: What was B&#039 ; nai B&#039 ; rith like then? KAPLAN: Well, we had about 120 men or 30 men, at--at the peak. And we met--It wasn&#039 ; t, uh, extremely active. I mean, we met three or four times during the year, with evening meetings. And we had a couple other activities. We had--uh, some of us would--were a volunteer group that would go to the, uh, VA hospital, the one on Leestown Pike, to, uh--to talk to patients. There were a few other activities. And, uh, I think my wife joined Hadassah, uh, at that time. CRANE: I know you were also the president at the temple, at one time. KAPLAN: Yeah. I became president relatively young. CRANE: And what was that like? KAPLAN: Uh, it was, uh--I enjoyed it, for the most part. I mean, there were--there were some problems, especially when I first became president. I don&#039 ; t know if it&#039 ; s something that should be mentioned publicly. CRANE: You c KAPLAN: --do you remember Rabbi Leffler? CRANE: I sure do. You could discretely share whatever you want. KAPLAN: Do you remember when there was, uh, an uprising against Rabbi Leffler? Do you go that far back? (laughs) I mean, there was a group--the--the temple board decided to dismiss him. But then there was a g organized group from the congregation that decided they wanted to keep him. So it went to the congregational meeting. And a decision was made to keep Rabbi Leffler. And that was the year that I became president. WARD: Uh-- KAPLAN: Some o&#039 ; the major figures in the temple either resigned or cut their dues in protest. But, uh, it really didn&#039 ; t affe--uh, uh, well, you are not a member of Adath Israel, I don&#039 ; t think, so you probably don&#039 ; t know too much about it. But, uh, Rabbi Leffler stayed a few more years. Then he was again asked to leave. And this--this time he-- CRANE: --he was there twenty years?-- KAPLAN: --didn&#039 ; t protest. He was there twenty years, yes. CRANE: What are the concerns, if you remember, uh, that some o&#039 ; the congregants had that were opposed to keeping him? KAPLAN: Well, the ones that were, uh, spoken about most were the--they said he didn&#039 ; t get along with children very well, in religious school he was not--and it&#039 ; s qu it&#039 ; s true. He was not the type--the warm type personality that new how to deal with children. And, uh, then there were other beefs. Yeah. I liked him, although he was not the warm type rabbi that, uh, we&#039 ; ve had since then. CRANE: How many rabbis has the temple had, since you&#039 ; ve been there? Rabbi Leffler was there when you came? KAPLAN: No. There were two before that. CRANE: Uh KAPLAN: --there was one who was there for about a year, after I arrived. And he went to St. Louis. And there was a Rabbi Rothman, who c stayed for two or three years--and then Leffler, for twenty years. And since then, you probably know who came after that, Adland and--you know, an CRANE: --oh, that&#039 ; s right. And after--there was John Adland and after him was Marc Kline? KAPLAN: Marc Kline, yes. CRANE: And then KAPLAN: --well, Rabbi Roberts was a, uh, interim rabbi-- CRANE: --oh, that&#039 ; s right-- KAPLAN: --and now our current--our current rabbi. CRANE: According to the Temple Adath Israel Web site--it has you down that you are still an active member of the temple. So what is it that motivates you to continue to be active at the temple? KAPLAN: Well, I have a profound interest in Judaism, and, uh, both from the standpoint of faith in its teachings and, uh, a desire to associate--be with other Jews. That&#039 ; s, uh, my organization. CRANE: What was Judaism in your home like as an adult, living in Lexington? KAPLAN: (sniffs) Well, we, uh--most of it, I think, was connected with Temple Adath Israel. Y you know, because whatever it&#039 ; s, uh, doing, we would attend. And so this was always on the calendar. Uh, I mean, we, uh--let me see. My wife did not keep kosher. We, of course, raised children at the temple. So we participated in their religious school activities. Uh, we celebrated the holidays. We lighted candles on Friday night. CRANE: That&#039 ; s pretty good. Uh--and your--your present wife, she&#039 ; s also a, uh, active member of the temple. KAPLAN: Yeah, she is, and Hadassah. Are you a member of Hadassah? Because that&#039 ; s her major interest. CRANE: Tell us about that. Tell me a little bit about her involvement in Hadassah. KAPLAN: Well, she, uh--I think she joined right away, after we got married. She had not been active--her--her first husband was not Jewish. She was born Jewish, of course, but her first husband was not. And she did no--although she maintained an interest in--in Judaism, all the years, she was not active in anything. Uh, but, after we got married, uh, she learned about the temple and about Hadassah. And she would attend meetings. And then, uh, she&#039 ; s a member of the board. And then she was asked to be president. And she hadn&#039 ; t been that--member that long. But, uh, she was asked to become president, which she did, for two years. That was about six, eight years ago. But she&#039 ; s continue to be active since. CRANE: I find it amazing that Lexington, Kentucky, is such a small little place, compared to the United States as a whole, and there are so many leaders--Hadassah leaders that come out of Lexington, at a national level. I mean, there&#039 ; s been, uh, Judy Saxe and, uh, Marilyn Moosnick, and-- KAPLAN: --Gail Cohen-- CRANE: --Gail Cohen. And, you know, I&#039 ; ve read lots about Odette. I mean, there&#039 ; s lots of women who have very strong Jewish connection, uh, and go, uh KAPLAN: --it is--it is unusual. I think they have 300, 310 members in Lexington--uh, considering the size, is, uh, amazing. Uh, the Jewish population in Lexington is about 2,000, maybe 3,000. &#039 ; Cause they really don&#039 ; t know. A lot of those are hidden. Uh, and Louisville is 10,000. Louisville doesn&#039 ; t even have an active Hadassah chapter now. CRANE: What do you attribute this to? KAPLAN: Well, leadership, uh, people like Judy Saxe, who, uh, became active many years ago. And, uh--yeah, what--what you&#039 ; ve said is recognized by Hadassah people--leadership, all over. On a national--on the national level, they know that a Lexing--Lexington is very active in Hadassah, at a proportion to the population. And I think it has to do with those who--who lead and, you know, set the tone. CRANE: What supports and challenges were there, uh, that you had to face, in raising your children in Lexington? KAPLAN: Excuse me. What challenges and what else? CRANE: Uh, what supports were there to raise Jewish children in Lexington? What were some o&#039 ; the supports that were around? Obviously, the temple. And what were some o&#039 ; the challenges that you all had to deal with? KAPLAN: Well, of course, the supports had to do with the temple, and then the, uh--uh, the community center, Federation, uh, with the sh--the, uh--you know, the children&#039 ; s day camp, during the summer. Uh, the supports--and you&#039 ; re talking about Jewish supports. CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: I&#039 ; d say it was the temple, more than any, uh WARD: Uh KAPLAN: --they went to religious school. CRANE: What was your relationship with, uh, the Federation? (Ward sniffs) KAPLAN: We uh CRANE: --were you all involved? KAPLAN: --I was on--I was on the board about six years. Yeah, I might say it was the--the summer camps. My son went to Camp Young Judea, which is a subsidiary of, uh--(clears his throat)--of Hadassah, although I think it&#039 ; s become independent now. And that&#039 ; s where he really developed a closeness to Judaism. He went to a--after he, uh--after he was too old for--for, uh, Young Judea, he went to a camp for older kids, I think sophomores in high school, in--in New York--it&#039 ; s called--upper New York state. It&#039 ; s called Tel Yehuda--where he had so--So, uh, he really developed a--a closeness to, uh, Judaism that way. CRANE: Were you involved in other organizations or groups, uh, within the greater Lexington community? Were you active in? KAPLAN: --non-Jewish groups? CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: I really haven&#039 ; t been--other than medical. I mean, uh, Medical Society and the allergy groups. And I was on the voluntary faculty of--for UK, for many years. Means I donate time to, uh, help teach medical students and residents, you know, like an afternoon a week. CRANE: How did you get involved in that? KAPLAN: Oh, there was, uh, always an open invitation for specialists who wished to assist in the, uh, teaching program to do so. I don&#039 ; t think very many do. But, uh, it was no problem to, uh--Oh, uh, uh, I must say, though, that it was easy for me, perhaps, because I joined the pediatric allergy teaching program, which was led by Ken Gerson, who I mentioned before. He was on the part-time faculty, for a while. Then he, uh, had his own practice. But later, I switched to a different--to an adult allergy clinic--uh, Dr. Bang--uh, for a number of years. So, uh, uh--I mean, this was a community effort, t- to do that. CRANE: Were there other Jewish doctors that you, uh, met, through your volunteer work at the university-- KAPLAN: --uh CRANE: --as the Medical Center grew? KAPLAN: I don&#039 ; t think that that led to it. Uh, uh, in the early years, I knew all of the faculty--pediatric faculty doctors. I don&#039 ; t think any of &#039 ; em were Jewish--up to the present time. But, uh, uh, that--that was it. I just--you know, by just being there, uh, I did meet some other Jewish doctors. Well, there were Jewish dentists. I don&#039 ; t know if I met them, though, through the medical school--you know, Stan Saxe and Milt Gellin. I think there were Jewish dentists on the faculty. CRANE: How did your relationship to Judaism and your practices differ from that of your parents? KAPLAN: Uh, well, my--uh, uh, I&#039 ; ve been much closer to organized Judaism than my parents ever were. I--uh, as explained before, my parents had no connection to--to any synagogue or Jewish organization, that, uh, I can recall. CRANE: And how is KAPLAN: --I mean, the main connection was with family, who--your Jewish family. So, uh, tha I think tha that was it-- CRANE: --and how is yours different from that of your children&#039 ; s? KAPLAN: Well, you know, uh, two of my three children I mentioned David before and then Lisa--And, uh, you know, so Lis Lisa is Jacob&#039 ; s mother. CRANE: I know tha KAPLAN: --and, uh, she&#039 ; s been--you know, has sent the children to--to, uh, Jewish school--think they still call it Hebrew school--in, uh--in Louisville. So, uh--so two of my three children have been active in Judaism. My other daughter has not shown much interest. CRANE: And where&#039 ; s she? KAPLAN: She lives in Louisville also. CRANE: So all three of your children. KAPLAN: My chil yeah, they all live in Louisville, or close, uh, the vicinity. CRANE: Uh--That&#039 ; s not too far away. KAPLAN: No. I&#039 ; m fortunate that way. CRANE: How has your Judaism and your practice changed, over the years? Or has it? KAPLAN: How has? Wha? Excuse me. CRANE: How has, uh, your Judaism, your personal spiritual beliefs and practices, changed over the years, from when you grew up to moving to South Carolina to moving to Lexington to? You know, I know that your--your family were raised Orthodox, you&#039 ; re members of a Reform temple. But I don&#039 ; t really, uh, know whether you feel more connected or less connected than you did. I&#039 ; m just curious as to how you feel it has changed, over time. KAPLAN: My connection to Judaism? CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: Well, I thought I, uh, brought that out, the fact that, uh, until--until I went into the military, my Judaism was just a given. I mean, it was--I accepted it. Didn&#039 ; t perturb me that I was Jewish. I can&#039 ; t say that I had any special feelings one way or another. It was just an ac an acceptance, part of my life--uh, but not in an active fashion. Uh, as an adult, especially since moving to Lexington, it&#039 ; s been a much more important part of my life. And, uh, I mean, uh, J Judaism, to me, is a, uh--has a spiritual a aspect which answers many of my questions, thoughts about life in general--and then an interest in the actual, uh, history and- and, uh--Or, uh, uh, you know, I read books about Judaism. Certainly closer than I ever was before. It&#039 ; s important to me. CRANE: What has been the role of Israel and Zionism, in your activities and of your identity as a Jew? KAPLAN: Well, you know, I became aware of the Holocaust after World War II. Trying to think. &#039 ; Cause my grandparents came over here a long time before World War II but I recall them--uh, at least my mother&#039 ; s parents, uncles, and aunts stating that, uh, they--they never get close touch with family members. Back then, you didn&#039 ; t make long distance phone calls. I guess you could have written letters. But they didn&#039 ; t keep in very close touch. And then, uh, when the war was over, they realized that there was, uh, no contact at all. And they would just pass such remarks as &quot ; Well, they&#039 ; re all gone,&quot ; you know, because of the Holocaust. But it was never discussed--uh, probably not--uh, maybe not in presence, &#039 ; cause I was younger then. Uh, my thought--Of course, I&#039 ; ve always been a strong, uh, r supporter of Israel, from the very beginning and, uh--and believed in the Zionist concept, at a time when not all Jews believed that. And, of course, since--since my marriage to Odette, I&#039 ; ve been even closer. Because she has family in Israel. We&#039 ; ve been there several times. CRANE: Did her family leave Morocco and move to Israel? KAPLAN: Uh, her brother and sister did. And it&#039 ; s mainly their--their children--Well, her brother didn&#039 ; t move there till much more recently. But her sister, uh, went to Israel even before--Well, Odette go WARD: --uh-- KAPLAN: --arranged for her to go there, at the same time that she left for the US. By that time, Jews--and by the--uh--see. She left in the early sixties. F1: Uh KAPLAN: --in the fifties and sixties, uh, Jews in Morocco were deciding that they had to leave, even though they weren&#039 ; t treated as badly in Morocco, perhaps, as other, uh, Near Eastern and North African, uh, countries. But still, i- it was not very pleasant for them, especially after Israel became a state. And they started leaving. And, uh, my wife was concerned that her sister would not fare very well without her. And, uh, they were--they were raised by their grandfather, actually. And she arranged for her--for her sister to go to Israel, even though she was just a young teenager. Uh, and, of course, the s sister has twelve--(laughter)--uh, &quot ; twelve&quot ; --uh, has five children. And it&#039 ; s their children who, we&#039 ; ve--you know, we&#039 ; ve gone to their weddings. And, of course, through them we know other Jews living in Israel. So, of cour--that m means that we&#039 ; re a lot closer than most Jewish families, because of family in Israel. CRANE: Did your family come from--uh, come over here dur after the Bolshevik Revolution? When did they leave Russia, or Lithuania? KAPLAN: No, they were, uh, much older than that. My father left Russia in 1906, when he was seven years old. And, uh--and all the siblings, some came before him, some with him. Uh, my mother&#039 ; s parents came here shortly before she was born, in 1904. So they came, you know, maybe 1902. So that was long-- CRANE: --and they all settled in KAPLAN: --and they all and so that was long before--uh, before--well, somewhat before the Bolshev--uh, Revolution, yeah, fifteen years before. CRANE: Hm. Looking back, what, if anything, would you change about your relationship with Judaism? KAPLAN: Well, this would be divided into two areas. Since I&#039 ; ve been in Lexington and since--since I was married and before, I wouldn&#039 ; t change anything. I--I don&#039 ; t think I have any regrets about my life or absence of connection with Judaism before I was in the military, about age twenty-five to twenty sev uh, twenty-seven to twenty-nine. Uh, yeah, uh, it just isn&#039 ; t something I have any regrets or--or thoughts about. It&#039 ; s just part of life. CRANE: Are there any stories that you would like to share, that are important to you? Your grandson&#039 ; s sitting over there. And I personally love stories and think it would be really nice, if there was something you could share, for the record--a great tale. KAPLAN: Doesn&#039 ; t have to be about Judaism then, does it? CRANE: No. Just a special story. KAPLAN: Well, when I was, uh, uh--shortly after moving to Lexington, I was back in New York. And I called a friend in Manhattan. Uh, and he wasn&#039 ; t home. But his son--uh, I think was six or seven years old at the time--answered the phone. And I don&#039 ; t know where his mother was. But I said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; ll talk to you.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Just tell your--just tell your father that, uh--that Martin from Kentucky called.&quot ; He says, &quot ; Kentucky? Do you know Daniel Boone?&quot ; You know, there was a program, a TV--a weekly TV show, at that time, about Daniel Boone. Fact, there was a famous actor--is it Fess Parker?--who played Daniel Boone. And it was really a program that the children like to watch--you know, recurring program, week to week. So, of course, the children knew Daniel Boone, in Kentucky. So I got a kick outta that. CRANE: Okay. Is there anything else you would like to share, about your practice, funny stories, serious stories? KAPLAN: Mm. There must be stories. Let me see. About Judaism, about? CRANE: --a special vacation. KAPLAN: Well, you know, uh, always enjoyed travel. And, uh, travel to Israel has always been delightful to me. You know, the first-- WARD: --uh-- KAPLAN: --the first trip I made to Israel, uh, that was before I was married to Odette. I was still married to Nickie. And, uh, we had heard that the rabbi who married us, in Greenville, had retired--I think he went somewhere else first but then he retired and moved to Israel. So we decided to look him up. It was Nicky and me an- and our son, David. Uh, David was about seventeen. The other--our other two children, Lisa and Janet, I guess, were off on their own by that time. So we looked him up and we went to a--a place called French--French Village, I think it&#039 ; s called--on the outskirts of Jerusalem. And we visited. And it was delightful to return--to see the rabbi who had married us. And he was in Israel. And he had this-- WARD: --uh-- KAPLAN: --this k apartment. And we could overlook the Arab part of Jerusalem from--uh, from his apartment. And he said that they had a--they had a woman who would help them in the house, and very faithful, but she had to leave, a week or two before that, &#039 ; cause she was getting a tough time from her family because she was working for Jews. Now this was not--I&#039 ; m sure that this is not, uh, typical of all--because many East Jerusalemites, I&#039 ; m sure, work in West Jerusalem. But--so it wasn&#039 ; t that unusual. But it struck us that this was--You know, this was way back, 1988. And there was already such feeling between Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem--probably still--uh, probably always was, from the very beginning. But I recall that incident. And, uh, I remember meeting a cousin--second cousin in Israel, oh, no more than five years ago, who I had never known. Another cousin of mine had found out about her. And, uh, it seems that that--that, uh, woman&#039 ; s grandmother and my grandfa--we--father were brothers and sisters. And she was a Holocaust survivor and came to Israel way back, I think--She came here about 1950, to Israel. And the family never knew about her. I mean, she just--there was no way of her communicating, I guess. Uh, and, uh, I&#039 ; ve been back a couple times since and have met her. She lives outside of Haifa. CRANE: She&#039 ; s your second cousin. WARD: Uh KAPLAN: --she--she&#039 ; s a little--a few years younger than me--well, about ten years younger. Let&#039 ; s see. Ho how would you call it? If her--if our grandparents were brothers and sisters, that makes us at least some kinda cousin. I&#039 ; ve always called it second cousin. CRANE: The way I understand it, uh, you had the same grandparents, you&#039 ; re first cousins. If you had the same great grandparents, you&#039 ; re second cousins. So if they were siblings, then you are second cousins, &#039 ; cause you share the same great-grandparents. KAPLAN: Well, they wer we didn&#039 ; t share grandparents or great-grandparents but there was a mother-- WARD: --uh KAPLAN: --brother-sister connection there. Uh, well, I&#039 ; ll call it second cousin. (laughter) CRANE: Uh KAPLAN: --w we always enjoy--we enjoy seeing them. But the amazing thing to me is that they&#039 ; ve lived there for sixty years and, uh, we never knew about them. Uh, apparently, uh, you know, when they came to Israel--could they have made a connection or, uh ? Well, there was no connection. They had--uh, you know, my grandparents had been here for fifty years, so--you know, sight unseen. Uh, they just never made any connection after that. That was always interesting to me. Uh, we, uh, enjoy seeing &#039 ; em, for that reason. CRANE: Do you know, uh, your great great grandparents&#039 ; names--your great? KAPLAN: --great-great-grandparents. CRANE: Your--your great-grandparents, uh. KAPLAN: No. I don&#039 ; t know if I ever--I ever knew them. You know, my--my grandfa--my father never talked about his, uh, experiences in Russia. Well, he probably didn&#039 ; t remember much. He was only six or seven when he came here. And I never questioned him. I--I wondered why I didn&#039 ; t try to get more information. But a first cousin of mine looked into it. You know, now people are always going to Ancestry.com. You can find out things. I don&#039 ; t know if you can find out about Lithuania. But, uh, uh, we have the name of the ship that they came over from Hamburg. Uh, uh, I guess they traveled to Hamburg, Germany, and then took a ship. We know the name o&#039 ; the ship. We know the name of the, uh--of the village that they lived in in Russia, with some history of that village--well, a couple pages history, of everything that went on in that shtetl and even before it became a shtetl. So, uh--But I haven&#039 ; t looked further. You know, a lot of people are on--go to Ancestry.com now. WARD: You need to share that with your grandson. KAPLAN: Yeah, what about it, Jacob? (Jacob laughs) We&#039 ; ll look it up. WARD: We&#039 ; ll check it out one day. CRANE: Well KAPLAN: --I&#039 ; ll t I&#039 ; ll let you kn I&#039 ; ll show you what I have. You know, it never occurred to me to, uh--to share that. CRANE: I have so enjoyed this. And thank you, so much, for the opportunity to listen to your stories and share your experiences with us. KAPLAN: Uh, it&#039 ; s been a good experience for me too, t--well, thanks for, uh--for choosing me. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh059_jk021_kaplan_ohm.xml 2016oh059_jk021_kaplan_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh059_jk021_kaplan_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Martin Kaplan, May 12, 2016 Description An account of the resource Dr. Martin Kaplan was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1928 and raised in the Bronx, New York City. Both of his parents, Samuel (born in 1899) and Clara Kaplan worked as school teachers. His father was a Russian immigrant from a village named Olshan near Vilna, Lithuania. Both of Dr. Kaplan's parents were raised in Orthodox Jewish homes but became more liberal with their Judaism in their own homes. Dr. Kaplan recalls lighting Shabbat candles, having a bar mitzvah, and keeping kosher at home, but seldom attended synagogue. He also discusses systemic anti-Semitism. After graduating from DeWitt Clinton High School, Dr. Kaplan attended the City College of New York for one year. He then transferred to Syracuse University, his father's alma mater. Dr. Kaplan went to medical school at State University of New York Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, New York. He joined the United States Air Force between the Korean and Vietnam wars because of the likelihood he would be drafted as a doctor. He was stationed at Greenville, South Carolina where he would later meet his first wife Nicki Nixon. His wife converted to Judaism through the rabbi at the conservative synagogue in Greenville. Dr. Kaplan moved to Lexington, Kentucky in 1959 where he joined an allergy practice with Dr. Maurice Kaufmann and Dr. Lloyd Mayer. He discusses the medical community that existed in Lexington at this time and the Jewish doctors that he could recall. Upon moving to Lexington, Dr. Kaplan joined Temple Adath Israel, the only reform temple in the city. He also joined B'nai Brith. He became president of the congregation at one point when there was an attempted "uprising" against the Rabbi of the time--Rabbi Leffler. He goes on to name the different rabbis of the congregation over his years of membership. He discusses his current wife's membership in the Hadassah organization. Dr. Kaplan explains his relationship with Judaism in comparison to his parents' and his children's. He describes his support of Zionism and his family's connection to the Holocaust growing up. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh059_jk021 Subject The topic of the resource Lexington (Ky.) Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Religion University of Kentucky. Medical Center Physicians--Kentucky Military service, Voluntary--United States. United States. Army Air Forces Medical education Universities and colleges. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/2882cf6efe5cc6882dadc1b51d4b3c43.jpeg 557c02a76bc4eb212d8823f0afc4c1be Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arwen Donahue Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Harold Baker Interview Keyword Family histories. Jewish children Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Childhood OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh057_jk020 Interview with Harold Baker, May 3, 2016 2016oh057_jk020 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Small business--Ownership Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington World War, 1939-1945 Religion Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. Family histories. Jewish children Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Childhood Harold Baker Arwen Donahue 1:|24(12)|39(3)|69(11)|93(6)|115(5)|136(13)|152(4)|160(13)|172(10)|185(8)|205(1)|217(4)|226(5)|236(8)|249(10)|269(3)|280(2)|295(16)|311(7)|327(7)|344(5)|359(4)|371(4)|381(9)|392(7)|406(5)|421(4)|438(11)|448(4)|464(4)|474(3)|491(13)|516(3)|541(2)|555(6)|572(12)|593(5)|609(13)|620(6)|636(4)|646(8)|658(14)|674(10)|689(9)|703(9)|714(2)|728(3)|740(5)|767(3)|795(3)|806(10)|822(4)|833(7)|850(4)|865(15)|872(7)|883(8)|902(7)|913(15)|927(15)|949(10)|959(12)|970(12)|993(12)|1009(14)|1031(12)|1041(10)|1066(9)|1091(3) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253328083&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family history It's, uh, May 3rd, 2016, and my name is Arwen Donahue. I'm part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Fund for Historical Excellence Oral History Project, and I'm very pleased to welcome Harold Baker today to, uh, be interviewed for our oral history project. Thank you so much for coming. Baker's father and mother immigrated from Poland and Lithuania, respectively, in the early 1900s and settled with family in the Lexington area. His father sold his business in Winchester and established Baker Metal in an old hemp factory in 1921. Although he did not have much experience with the scrap metal business as a child, Baker attended the College of Commerce at the University of Kentucky in preparation to take over the family business. He signed up with the United States Army in 1943, and eventually took over the business after the war in 1945. Baker's Scrap Metal ; Building businesses ; Business obstacles ; Centralia (Ill.) ; Chain immigration ; Childhood ; Colleges ; Commerce ; Cyclical business ; Danville (Ky.) ; East European immigrants ; Education ; Evelyn Baker ; Family businesses ; Gloria Baker ; History ; Ida Wides ; Jake Green ; Joe Green ; Military service ; Morris Baker ; Scrap metal ; Small businesses ; Stores ; Sylvia Green ; United States Army ; Universities ; University of Kentucky ; Winchester (Ky.) Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. 38.055, -84.484 17 Location of Baker's scrap metal business on the corner of W. 7th St and N. Limestone St., Lexington, Kentucky. 368 United States military service during World War II Tell me about your experience in the army. Did you, did you enlist? Before taking over the family business, Baker enlisted in the United States Army in 1943 and was stationed at the U.S. military base in Natal, Brazil. He returned to Kansas City, Missouri in 1945 and eventually married his childhood sweetheart, Anita Roos. When his father fell ill, he returned home to Lexington and took over the family business. Anita Roos ; Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Courting ; Family businesses ; History ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish marriage ; Kansas City (Mo.) ; Marriage ; Military bases ; Military service ; Music ; Natal (Brazil) ; New York (N.Y.) ; Scrap metal ; United States Army ; World War II Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. 5.779, 35.200 17 Location of Natal, Brazil. http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Framework/ch12.htmLink An overview of the establishment of the United States Armed Forces in Brazil in 1940 from the United States Center of Military History. 736 Jewish life in Lexington in the 1920s and 1930s How important was Judaism in your family growing up, and how did you, how did you practice Judaism? Although his parents grew up Orthodox, he and his family began attending services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Baker attended Sunday school at Temple Adath Israel. Baker eventually became a member of the Temple Adath Israel congregation with his wife, and the congregation became a centerpiece of their social life. He also talks about his extracurricular activities while attending University High and later Henry Clay High School, which included a role on the yearbook, newspaper, and student council. He was not as active in extracurricular activities while at the University of Kentucky, which he attributes to not being part of a fraternity. Anita Roos ; Bar mitzvahs ; Civic clubs ; Civic involvement ; Henry Clay High School (Lexington) ; High schools ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Judaism ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Prejudice ; Reform Judaism ; Religious life ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; School clubs and organizations ; Sunday school Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; University of Kentucky ; Worship (Judaism) 38.040, -84.507 17 Location of Taylor Education Building, formerly University High School. http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt7sf7664q86_1100_1 Image of the education buildings of the old University High School, 1930s. Image from the Kentucky Digital Library. 1187 Running the scrap metal business in the 1950s and 1960s Well, tell me more about the business, then. Baker was originally supposed to take over his family's gasoline distribution business, but when his father died in 1945 they sold it and Baker took over the scrap metal business instead. Baker describes the cyclical nature of the scrap metal industry, which would boom around every four or five years. The business grew after IBM (International Business Machines) opened in Lexington in 1956. Baker also discusses the importance of building connections with other scrap business owners and of attending industry conventions in addressing business obstacles. Although nearly 90% of scrap metal businesses were Jewish-owned, Judaism did not play a large role in the industry or at conventions. Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Blue family ; Building businesses ; Charlie Schwartz ; Cohen family ; Competitors ; Conventions ; Cyclical business ; Dave Bollatin ; Family businesses ; Gasoline business ; Gordon family ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Jay Bollatin ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish networks ; Jewish population ; Junk business ; Klempner family ; Mansbach family ; Marvin Bing ; Munich family ; Rod Ratliff ; Scrap metal ; Small businesses ; Stan Rose ; Steel mills Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 2037 The role of Judaism growing up in 1920s and 1930s Lexington Um, can you give me a sense of what your Jud--what your Jewishness meant to you? Judaism was an influential part of Baker's life, as a cultural, social, and religious force. He attended Temple Adath Israel on Friday nights where his wife sang in the choir. Although he maintained a Jewish identity while attending the University of Kentucky, the Jewish fraternity, Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) had not been formed yet. Baker also remembers an instance of anti-Semitism as a child when someone called him a name and they got into a fight, but otherwise he describes Lexington as a relatively accepting town. A. B. Grossman's Store ; Baker family ; Culture ; Fraternity ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Prejudice ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Ruth Gordon Baker ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Kentucky ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Holidays. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Worship (Judaism) 38.042, -84.494 17 Location of A. B. Grossman's store on Water Street, Lexington, Kentucky. 2245 Learning about the Holocaust in the 1930s Well I'm, I'm, I'm wondering what it was like for you being in college, like, I assume you were at UK [University of Kentucky] when World War II started in 1939, and how much did you know about what was going on in Europe, the Holocaust, and how did, how did that translate into Jewish life in Lexington? When World War II broke out in 1939, Baker learned about the persecution of the European Jewish community from his father, who read the Jewish Daily Forward and spoke with family members in Europe. Most English newspapers did not carry information regarding the Holocaust and most school courses did not cover it. Before there was an established Synagogue or Temple to practice at, the Jewish community would practice at local Jewish stores, including A. B. Grossman's store located on Water Street. A. B. Grossman ; Cultural acceptance ; German Jews ; Holocaust ; International relations ; Jewish Daily Forward ; Jewish persecution ; Jewish practices ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Morris Baker ; News ; Newspapers ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Services ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; World War II Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) ; Holocaust. ; Religion ; World War, 1939-1945 ; Worship (Judaism) 38.043, -84.494 17 Water Street, Lexington, Kentucky. Location of A. B. Grossman's store. 2626 Selling the family scrap metal business in 2003 I just came across a quote from The Forward that I wanted to read to you and see what you have, have to say about it. Um, &quot ; Scrap metal is one of the oldest Jewish businesses in America. As it goes the way of globalization, a particularly Jewish, if mostly unnoticed way of life disappears with it.&quot ; Do you have any reaction or thoughts about that? Several scrap metal businesses merged in the 1990s due to economic pressures, and Baker talks about the decision to sell his business to the Cohens in 2003. He also describes his role as a temple leader in the '50s and as temple president from 1961 to 1963, including the challenge of expanding the building due to a growing congregation. Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Building businesses ; Business obstacles ; Consolidation ; Family businesses ; Globalization ; Jewish businesses ; Mergers ; Scrap metal Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://forward.com/news/1258/history-e2-80-99s-scrap-heap-families-sell-off-yards-a/ Article from Forward, &quot ; History’s Scrap Heap: Families Sell Off Yards, and Legacy.&quot ; 2908 Leadership positions with Temple Adath Israel in the 1950s and 1960s What are your children's names, and when they were--when were they born? Baker raised his children with a strong Jewish identity, even though he believes that their practice differs from his. Baker describes his involvement with Temple Adath Israel which included administrative roles, fundraising, and contributing to Temple expansion and the hiring and firing of rabbis. He was also the president of the board from 1961 to 1963. The major challenge that he faced as president was the decision to move the Temple on Tabor Road, but they eventually sold that property and expanded the current building. Many families were members of both the Temple and Ohavay Zion Synagogue, which Baker believes contributed to a healthy relationship between both congregations. Baker also discusses his involvement with B'nai Brith. B'nai Brith ; Bar mitzvahs ; Ben Baker ; Bobby Baker ; Child-rearing ; Cohen family ; Generational changes ; Gloria Baker ; Jewish education ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Michael Baker ; Modern life ; News ; Population growth ; Religious life ; Religious practices ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Temple expansion Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Worship (Judaism) 17 3502 Changing landscape of Lexington's Jewish identity You mentioned your grandchildren. Would you tell me their names? Baker discusses the changes in the Jewish community in Lexington that he has witnessed, including the declining membership at Temple Adath Israel in recent years. He highlights the role that Israel has had in the formation of Jewish identity in the Lexington Jewish community, especially before Israeli independence. Finally, he discusses his role as a temple leader in the expansion of Temple Adath Israel. B'nai Brith ; Child-rearing ; Civic clubs ; Civic involvement ; Family values ; Generational changes ; Generations ; History ; Holidays ; International relations ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Jewish tradition ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Membership ; Moving ; News ; Sunday school ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Temple Expansion ; Zionism Israel. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 37.997, -84.480 17 Location of the Lexington chapter of B'nai Brith at 1050 Chinoe Rd, Ste 112, Lexington, Kentucky. http://www.bnaibrith.org/about-us.html History of B'nai Brith International. interview Baker's father and mother immigrated from Poland and Lithuania, respectively, in the early 1900s and settled with family in the Lexington area. His father established Baker Metal in an old hemp factory in 1921. Baker attended the College of Commerce at the University of Kentucky in preparation to take over the family business. He signed up with the United States Army in 1943, and eventually took over the business after the war in 1945. Baker talks about the decision to sell his business to the Cohens in 2003. Although his parents grew up Orthodox, he and his family began attending services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Baker attended Sunday school at Temple Adath Israel. Baker eventually became a member of the Temple Adath Israel congregation with his wife, and the congregation became a centerpiece of their social life. Baker raised his children with a strong Jewish identity, even though he believes that their practice differs from his. Baker describes his involvement with Temple Adath Israel which included administrative roles, fundraising, and contributing to Temple expansion and the hiring and firing of rabbis. Baker discusses the changes in the Jewish community in Lexington that he has witnessed, including the declining membership at Temple Adath Israel in recent years. When World War II broke out in 1939, Baker learned about the persecution of the European Jewish community from his father, who read the Jewish Daily Forward and spoke with family members in Europe. Most English newspapers did not carry information regarding the Holocaust and most school courses did not cover it. DONAHUE: It&#039 ; s, uh, May 3rd, 2016, and my name is Arwen Donahue. I&#039 ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Fund for Historical Excellence Oral History Project, and I&#039 ; m very pleased to welcome Harold Baker today to, uh, be interviewed for our oral history project. Thank you so much for coming. BAKER: Thank you. DONAHUE: What is your full name? BAKER: Harold Joseph Baker. DONAHUE: And when--what is your date of birth? BAKER: April 23rd, 1921. DONAHUE: Were you born--where were you born? BAKER: In Lexington, Good Samaritan Hospital. DONAHUE: Okay. Can you tell me something about your family background? How did your family come to the Kentucky--to the Bluegrass Region? BAKER: Well, to go back originally, my father came from Poland, which was then part of Russia, and uh, he came to this country in nineteen--uh, let&#039 ; s see, he was sixteen. He came in 1906, and uh, my mother&#039 ; s family came from, also what was part of Russia, Lithuania, and they came to this country in 1900. DONAHUE: Do you know the names of the towns where they had come from? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: And do you know what brought them to Lexington? BAKER: I think, uh, that they had either relatives or friends who lived in this area. My father originally came to Danville, Kentucky, and they settled with his sister over there. And my mother originally lived in Centralia, Illinois, and they had family here, so they also moved to Lexington. DONAHUE: Did your family change its name when they came to the United States? BAKER: I have no idea what the original name was. DONAHUE: Okay-- BAKER: I just don&#039 ; t know it. DONAHUE: Yeah, okay. And what were your--what was your father&#039 ; s name, and your mother&#039 ; s name? BAKER: Morris, and Ida. DONAHUE: Okay. And what was your mother&#039 ; s maiden name? BAKER: Wides, W-i-d-e-s. DONAHUE: Okay. And, um, do you have siblings? BAKER: I had two sisters, uh, both of who have died. DONAHUE: What were their names? BAKER: Gloria and Evelyn. DONAHUE: Were they--what how--what were their ages relative to you? BAKER: Both were six--I was the middle child, and the others were six-and-a-half years older, and six-and-a-half years younger. DONAHUE: Okay. I understand that the Baker family started recycling in 1921? BAKER: It was called junk business then. DONAHUE: Junk business. BAKER: But, uh, uh, my dad, uh, recently had a store in Winchester, I believe, and then, uh, gave that up and went in with his brother-in-the law, the scrap business in Lexington, they bought a--uh, an old hemp factory, which was at Seventh and Limestone. And they started the operation there. DONAHUE: Was the business in Winchester, was that the--related to the Jake--to the Joe Green family? BAKER: Not that I know of. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Now where&#039 ; s Joe Green from? DONAHUE: Well, uh, Sylvia Green, his daughter-in-law, do you know Sylvia Green? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: She--she, um, immigrated after the war--after World War II to Kentucky, and she married Jake Green, and they settled in Winchester, and his family had a dry goods store in Winchester--Jewish family who was involved with a--uh, synagogue for a long time. I just was curious-- BAKER: Oh. DONAHUE: --if they were connected with that business. BAKER: Not that I know of. DONAHUE: Okay. Um, so the junk business, and it was in an old hemp factory, uh, did you work with that business as a child? Did you grow up kind of helping out there? BAKER: Uh, just listening to my mother and father talk, I wasn&#039 ; t involved with the business in any way at that time, uh. DONAHUE: What memories do you have of it? What was--what was the atmosphere like there? BAKER: Well, the, um, business had its ups and downs, and I knew when we were going through depressed periods, but, uh, besides that, I really had very little contact as a youngster. DONAHUE: What were your own hopes and dreams as a child? BAKER: Well, I think the family just assumed, since I was the male, they just assumed that I would go into the business, so they never had any indication of going in any other direction. I did graduate from the university, and then went into the business, although I graduated from university and went into the Army, and then into the business. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And, so you always knew when you were growing up that you would somebody go into the business-- BAKER: Yes, I think so. It was just assumed, yes. DONAHUE: And when you were studying at--at the university, what--what university did you attend? BAKER: I attended University of Kentucky, and I was in the commerce college. DONAHUE: Um-hm. So you were preparing to take over the family business? BAKER: Well I don&#039 ; t know if commerce college-- DONAHUE: --(laughs)-- BAKER: --was much preparation, but I was headed in that direction, yeah. DONAHUE: Okay. Tell me about your experience in the Army, did you--did you enlist? BAKER: Well I--huh, I came through the university, and in the, um, late thirties, and early forties, well I graduated in &#039 ; 42, and, uh, I realized that we were going to war. I know the country didn&#039 ; t realize it, but, it was just because of our history in &#039 ; 17, &#039 ; 18, and our closeness to England, that I felt that we were going to war. So, um, I took advanced military, and so I came out as a lieutenant, and, uh, uh, I eventually came out of the Army as a captain. I&#039 ; d been a captain for quite a while. DONAHUE: Mm. Where did you serve? BAKER: Uh, I served in Brazil. We had a national Army airline all over the world, and we had a base in Brazil, Natal, Brazil, and uh, I went down there and--uh, let&#039 ; s see, February of &#039 ; 43 and came home in April of &#039 ; 45. I was in charge of a cargo warehouse. Uh, Natal was a jumping-off place for Africa. At that time, this airline that the United States had flew from Florida to Brazil to Africa, and then to the Far East, and uh, so Natal was just one stopping place along the way, although it was a really large base. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And, did you know at that time what you were going to do after you-- BAKER: I assumed I was going into the, uh, business. DONAHUE: Yeah. Can you describe returning to Lexington and getting into the business? BAKER: Um, let&#039 ; s see, I have to think about this now. I got out of the Army in April. Well, I--I had leave time, so it was stretched out until April. I actually got out of the Army in January the 26th of &#039 ; 43. I mean, &#039 ; 45. And, uh, I married a week later. DONAHUE: Wow. (laughs) BAKER: Uh, I married Anita Roos, and uh, we went on our honeymoon, and uh, I called home one day, and, &quot ; Mother said you better come home, dad&#039 ; s sick.&quot ; And so we drove back home, and, uh, I went into the business, since my dad died, I think, and, uh, about ten days after I got there, March 13th. DONAHUE: How--how did you meet your wife? Had you been courting her while you were in the Army-- BAKER: Oh, huh, yeah. We, uh--I knew her from Sunday school. At that time, she was thirteen ; I was fifteen. And we started dating on and off until we got married. DONAHUE: How do you spell her last name? Her maiden name? BAKER: R-o-o-s, Roos. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Anita was--had a beautiful voice. DONAHUE: You met in her in Sunday school, and you were dating on and off, and was--was that, um--so when you went off to the Army, had you made a commitment to one another? BAKER: No, no. Neither way. DONAHUE: Hm. BAKER: When I came home--oh, came back to this country, I was stationed in, uh--Kansas City, and I had a position in the Army that I had the right to go down to personnel and write my own orders, and I could fly any place I wanted to in the country. So, uh, for three months, every month, I flew to New York. She was living in New York in that time, and, uh, on the third trip, we became engaged. DONAHUE: What was she doing in New York? BAKER: Uh, she was taking music lessons, um, voice lessons, and then I think she had a small job but it wasn&#039 ; t much. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Was she--did she have a career as a musician? BAKER: Um, after she came back to Lexington, she sang, uh, but, uh, primarily as a--as a wife and mother. DONAHUE: How important was Judaism in your family growing up, and how did you--how did you practice Judaism? BAKER: Well, both mother and dad came from Orthodox backgrounds, and, uh, as they lived in Lexington, they became less Orthodox, and at--as I was growing up, they belonged to both the Reform and the temple--temple and the Orthodox synagogue. And, uh, Anita&#039 ; s background was the temple, so, uh, after we married, it wasn&#039 ; t hard for us to start going to the temple. And actually, the synagogue at that time did their services in Hebrew. And so, it was a question of during the service that you went to, what page you were on, because you couldn&#039 ; t--I couldn&#039 ; t follow the Hebrew, so we were both, uh, comfortable in the temple. DONAHUE: So, do you know anything about the story of why your parents moved away from Orthodox Judaism and towards Reform Judaism? BAKER: Uh, I can&#039 ; t figure it out. They--that was the way they were. Uh, I think they were more comfortable with less Orthodoxy. DONAHUE: So you would go--what was your weekly routine as a--as a young person? Would you go to both--to services at both the temple and the synagogue? BAKER: Went to services as a youngster at the synagogue. Uh, as I said, I went to the temple when I was about fourteen, and went to Sunday school at temple. But, uh, as far as the High Holy Days services was concerned, I went to the synagogue. DONAHUE: Did you have a bar mitzvah? BAKER: I had a bar mitzvah, and that was really the turning point because mother and dad want--wanted me to be a member of the synagogue, a part of the synagogue family, until I was fourteen, I did. They wanted a bar mitzvah. DONAHUE: Because at the--at the temple, there--they were not doing bar mitzvahs at the time. BAKER: They were not doing bar mitzvahs, that&#039 ; s correct. DONAHUE: And were you happy to make that change to go to the temple? BAKER: I went with the tide. Yes, I was very well satisfied. DONAHUE: Was it--did you enjoy going to--to the temple for services? What did it mean to you? BAKER: Well, after Anita and I married, um, she sang in the choir, and, um--so we usually went on Friday night. She went--and if I didn&#039 ; t, but I usually went too, and, uh, temple life was very important to me. To us. DONAHUE: What about friendships? Were most of your friends through-- BAKER: Most friends were Jews, that&#039 ; s right. I had some gentile friends, as Anita had some gentile friends. But the majority of our social life was Jewish. DONAHUE: Where did you attend school? BAKER: I went to, um--Ashland, then to, uh, University High, or what they called it at the time, um, well--senior high was called University High, uh, parked--it was, I can&#039 ; t recall the name of it, at that time. And, um--what was the question? DONAHUE: Where you went to school, did you--did I see something about Henry Clay High School? Did you go to Henry Clay as well-- BAKER: I went to Henry Clay, yes, then I went to the University of Kentucky. DONAHUE: Yeah. Yeah, I approached that question a little backwards, because we talked about the University of Kentucky before we talked about your, uh, earlier education. BAKER: Well, uh, I did very well at Henry Clay. I was very active in the school activities. And, uh, I enjoyed Henry Clay. I was more involved in high school than I was in college. I just went to classes in college. I didn&#039 ; t have any activities. DONAHUE: What activities were you involved in? BAKER: At Henry Clay? Oh, I was on the, uh--annual, that we put out. I was on the High Times¸ which was the high school paper. Uh, I was in the, uh--um, in the, uh, what&#039 ; s called, student council. I just had a lot of activities in high school. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Why do you think you were more involved in high school than you were when you were in college? BAKER: That, I can&#039 ; t answer. I don&#039 ; t know. It was just easier doing it in high school. I wasn&#039 ; t a member of a fraternity, and I think, uh, if you were a member of a fraternity, you fell into certain positions, or activities, and that didn&#039 ; t happen with me. DONAHUE: What was it like as a Jewish boy attending public schools in Lexington? BAKER: Well I don&#039 ; t know that Jewish boys, made any difference. I think I was just the average student. DONAHUE: You didn&#039 ; t experience any anti-Semitism? BAKER: I don&#039 ; t think so. Not--at that time, there was a certain feeling that some people were anti-Semitic. And the family used to talk about this person, or that person being anti-Semitic. But I didn&#039 ; t run into any of that. DONAHUE: Did you have any kind of sense that you were in a--that you were different than the--than the majority, and did that matter to you, if so? BAKER: I don&#039 ; t think it mattered. DONAHUE: Well, tell me more about the business, then. Go--go-- BAKER: --The scrap business-- DONAHUE: --getting back--getting back to your return from World War II in 1945, and you discovered that your father had this--------(??)? BAKER: Well, as a youngster--well I first I have to tell you that we were both in the gasoline business and scrap business. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: My father, uh, his brother-in-law had started a, uh, wholesale gasoline business. They were distributors for city service. So, I think it was always my intention, or my father&#039 ; s intention, that when I went into the business, I&#039 ; d go into the gasoline business rather than the scrap business. So, uh, when he died, we sold the gasoline business, and, uh, I was to run the scrap business, see what I could do with it. DONAHUE: What--what made you decide to sell the gasoline business? BAKER: Well I--my mother&#039 ; s brothers came into town, and they were looking out for her interest. And here I was, a youngster who had no business experience, except for over the summer vacation period, so, uh, they decided that it&#039 ; d be best for her that they sell the gasoline business and give me a crack at the scrap business, that they did. DONAHUE: So, you--your, was--do you think that the family&#039 ; s expectation was that you&#039 ; d have a chance after you returned from the war to spend time with your father learning the ropes? BAKER: No, I think it was my father&#039 ; s intention that I, uh, run the gasoline business, that we&#039 ; d grow that business, and, uh, so, it didn&#039 ; t work out that way. DONAHUE: And was--just--was the economy better for the scrap business at that point, or was-- BAKER: Well, the scrap business depended upon the steel mills to buy the scrap. And so, uh, the business cycle in the United States at that time was about every four years, there&#039 ; d be demand for scrap. Well, there was always demand for scrap, but at times, it would drop down, the prices would drop very low, so there was a cycle there, and so, uh, I--I worked--I figured it out, and I worked it out, and it worked out fine. DONAHUE: Did you enjoy the work? BAKER: I did. Uh, I really enjoyed the business. I did well, and I enjoyed it. DONAHUE: Can you describe to me what--what it was like, what--what your day-to-day routine was, where you would get the metal? BAKER: Well, until 1956, there was very little industry in this area, and so we bought from the farmers, we bought from the garages. Uh, they would bring it in to us, and, uh, uh--we would accumulate it, and ship out carloads, or railroad carloads. After 1956, and IBM [International Business Machines Corporation] came to town, and Square D came in train, and the whole area developed small industrial plants, and any industrial plant that had their product metal, uh, would have scrap, and so our business grew. DONAHUE: And did you form relationships with--with the people who would--who would bring metal? Were there--were there certain clients who you had who you would see regularly, or was it different people every day? BAKER: Well, as far as after 1956, the industrial plants were important customers because they were reducing the tonnages. But, uh, the, um--regular truckers, some made a living out of it, that had routes, where they would go out in certain parts of state and buy and then bring them to us. Uh others, uh, just did occasionally. But we had certain, uh, customers that, uh, came in quite often. DONAHUE: Now I&#039 ; ve--I read, I think, that one person estimated that maybe as many as ninety percent of the owners of scrap metal businesses in the United States were Jewish. BAKER: They probably were, a big percentage. DONAHUE: What--was that, uh, meaningful to you in any way, that it was a-- BAKER: --It wasn&#039 ; t meaningful, it, uh--I think that, um, when Jews came to this country, uh, they were learning English, and, uh, they were looking for businesses to get into, or ways to make a living, and it was easy to start a scrap business, or what was called a junk business at that time. So, many Jews were in the business, yes. DONAHUE: I read that, uh, scrap metal, um, owner--business owner from Alabama would--said that, uh, he would look forward every year--his family would look forward every year to conventions, scrap mental conventions, because it was like a-- BAKER: --Which is true-- DONAHUE: --big family reunion. (laughs) BAKER: Well, for me, it was a--a learning experience. Here, I started out the business without any background in the business. And when I went to the conventions, and they would have, uh, ways of--of studying, and, uh, I learned so much. And then, just by sitting down with other dealers, and learning and hearing their experiences. And many of them were going through the same thing I was, because at the time that I went into the business, all over the country, young men were coming home to their family businesses, and coming to conventions and meetings, learning, just as I was learning. So we had, uh, seminars, and uh, we had workshops, and we learned from each other. DONAHUE: Were there social, uh, events there as well at the--at the conventions, where people would-- BAKER: I think there was, um, social, yes. DONAHUE: And did you--did you make use of those national networks, in your business in any way? BAKER: Oh, I think it was very helpful, very helpful. It was a learning experience after--for me, and I think for many other young men throughout the country. DONAHUE: Can you recall any--any stories, or particular experiences, or people that you met that--that have stayed with you? BAKER: No, I can&#039 ; t recall any stories. Uh, if you want me to tell you a little bit about the scrap business, I can. DONAHUE: Absolutely, yeah. BAKER: Um, we were buying scrap metal, both iron, copper, aluminum, and non-ferrous metals, and uh, the consumers were the steel mills and the refineries who were providing copper and aluminum, and, um, so it was a question of--of finding sources, or finding outlets for your material, and, um--and they would buy as they needed it. They were making new steel, making--refining copper, the brasses, and, uh--it was quite a large business. DONAHUE: Would representatives from those refineries go to the conventions as well? BAKER: Oh, sure. DONAHUE: And did they--were those businesses, did they tend to be Jewish-owned as well? BAKER: Um, some were. Some were not. Of the mills, none of--I don&#039 ; t recall any of the mills being Je--yes, it was a mill, in, uh--near Ashland, Colton (??) was Jewish-owned. But, uh, they were not--most of them were not involved with Judaism. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Did you work in any way with, um, other businesses within the state, other scrap metal businesses? Did you coordinate in any way? BAKER: Well, we were the largest in the Lexington area. And so, we would buy from the smaller towns, smaller dealers, halfway to Louisville, halfway to Cincinnati, halfway to Ashland, and to the south, we went quite a ways. And, uh, so, we would have our regular customers, as they had their regular customers. DONAHUE: Can you recall the--the names of some of those businesses that you worked with? BAKER: Well, there was Mansbach family in Ashland, Kentucky. And, uh, the Klempner family in Louisville, Blue (??) family in Louisville. Um, uh, the Cohen family in Middletown, Ohio. DONAHUE: And the Cohen family eventually bought your business. BAKER: You&#039 ; re right, you&#039 ; re correct. DONAHUE: And what about the other businesses in Lexington, the Gordon family? BAKER: The Gordon family, and the Munichs (??) had yards. And then, Ian Norn Wides started up a yard. DONAHUE: Was there any sense of, uh--of competition among you or-- BAKER: I don&#039 ; t think the competition was, uh, harsh, or bitter. It was just--it was competition. There was another operation in Lexington called Frankfort Scrap that Rod Ratliff (??) started. DONAHUE: And were your relationships with people in the business, um, were they friendships, as well as business relationships? BAKER: Some were. DONAHUE: And, I--I have, maybe pushing farther on this, but, was the-- BAKER: --oh yeah, push it-- DONAHUE: --was your--was your sense of, uh--of shared Jewishness at all important? Did that ever come up in conversation? BAKER: Uh, I don&#039 ; t think so. I don&#039 ; t think so. DONAHUE: Just--just the feeling of that you&#039 ; re all--people doing the same kind of work? BAKER: No, just--it was just competition, DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Uh, there was no bitterness. There was no great friendship. DONAHUE: And, uh, so your--then--who were your great friends? BAKER: Uh, growing up, um, a young man by the name of Marvin Bing was my closest friend. Are you asking that, or as you asking as adults? DONAHUE: Oh, both. BAKER: Well, uh, I had a man working for me by the name of Stan Rose. We were friendly with him. Uh, Charlie Schwartz, who was at the Veterans Hospital. Um-- DONAHUE: You can say something if you want. BAKER: What&#039 ; d you say? DONAHUE: I heard your son say something. I wondered if you wanted to put something-- BEN: Dave Bollatin (??). DONAHUE: Dave Bollatin? BAKER: Dave Bollatin, right. DONAHUE: Okay, so do you know Jay Bollatin? BAKER: Sure. DONAHUE: Okay. We&#039 ; re--I&#039 ; m going to be interviewing him in a few months. Uh--um, can you give me a sense of what your Jewishness meant to you? Was it-- BAKER: Oh, it was very important. Our lives revolved around the temple. DONAHUE: Was it a--would you describe it as, um, cultural, or more religious, or a mix of the two? How did--how-- BAKER: I think it was a mixture of the two. DONAHUE: Was there anything about--can you come up with any example of how you expressed or practiced your Judaism that were--that were most meaningful to you? Was it--was it holidays? Was it--any examples? BAKER: Well because Anita sang in the choir, I went to temple quite often on Friday night. And, um, the holidays were very important to us. DONAHUE: And later on in your life, did you experience any kind of anti-Semitism? I asked you about your--your experience as a child, but, uh, how about later? BAKER: I don&#039 ; t recall any specific problem. It&#039 ; s just that, uh, when I was growing up, and even later on, I think there was a--a feeling that there were some Christians who did not like Jews, for one reason or another. But I didn&#039 ; t find any great anti-Semitism. DONAHUE: You didn&#039 ; t notice--you didn&#039 ; t experience it personally? BAKER: I didn&#039 ; t. DONAHUE: You just were aware that there was a cultural-- BAKER: No, it was just a, uh--uh, there was some discussion about, that this person didn&#039 ; t like Jews, or, anti-Semitic but, uh, I personally didn&#039 ; t have any problems. DONAHUE: What about at the University of Kentucky? Did you--did you experience any-- BAKER: No. DONAHUE: --were you involved with any Jewish organizations there? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: There was a Jewish fraternity, I believe. BAKER: They started after I left. DONAHUE: I see. BAKER: They were in the--they were evolving to a fraternity. They had a local at the time, but, uh, they were just--it was coming about. Thinking about, uh, anybody being anti-Semitic, I remember, uh, when I was eleven, twelve, thirteen years old, uh, having a fight, fist fight, uh, somebody called me, uh, a name, and we had a fight. But that was the only problem I ever had. And that wasn&#039 ; t serious. The next day, we were playing baseball. DONAHUE: (laughs). What did the person call you? BAKER: I forgot the exact name. DONAHUE: But it was some kind of slur? BAKER: Slur, that&#039 ; s right. It wasn&#039 ; t important ; it happened. DONAHUE: Well I&#039 ; m--I&#039 ; m--I&#039 ; m wondering what it was like for you being in college, like, I assume you were at UK [University of Kentucky] when World War II started in 1939, and how much did you know about what was going on in Europe, the Holocaust, and how did that translate into Jewish life in Lexington? BAKER: Well my dad read a Jewish paper called The Forward, and so he was somewhat aware of what was going on. The English papers didn&#039 ; t carry much, but he had relatives there, and he was very much aware, and he didn&#039 ; t talk to the family about it, though. DONAHUE: When you went to services at the temple, do you recall talking about the plight of European Jews as a community? BAKER: Yes. And, um, men would come around asking for money. Lots of money was raised for European Jews. DONAHUE: Did you have cousins that you knew of who were still there? BAKER: I didn&#039 ; t know--I didn&#039 ; t know any of my relatives in Europe, no. DONAHUE: And would you have conversations--your dad would read the paper, and would your family have conversations? BAKER: Dad didn&#039 ; t talk about it. DONAHUE: He didn&#039 ; t. Was--were there discussions in any of your class, in a--in an academic context about what was going on politically? BAKER: I don&#039 ; t think so. It&#039 ; s hard to remember, but I don&#039 ; t think so. I don&#039 ; t think any of us realized how bad the situation was. Even Dad who was reading the Jewish paper didn&#039 ; t realize the extent of it. DONAHUE: When did you realize the extent of it? BAKER: It&#039 ; s hard to say. I think so much came out after the war that we didn&#039 ; t hear about during the war. DONAHUE: Did that have any impact on you personally, and on your--on your Jewish identity, learning what had happened to the majority of Jews in Europe? BAKER: I don&#039 ; t think so. DONAHUE: Let me just look. So your father was one of the founders of Ohavay Zion, is that right? But he didn&#039 ; t have a sense of deep--did he maintain a membership to-- BAKER: Oh, absolutely. DONAHUE: --both the synagogue and--and the temple? BAKER: Yes, he--uh, synagogue was his--was the closest of his--of houses of prayer, but, uh, he did belong to both. DONAHUE: I&#039 ; ve heard that members of Lexington&#039 ; s Jewish community in the early days, um, used to gather at downtown stores for minions, for prayer. Did you--did you experience anything like that? BAKER: Well, after dad died, I went to, uh, evening services at the stores downtown, um, for a while, and, uh, I think that was a continuous situation that they--continue to have services downtown. DONAHUE: Do you recall what store--stores you would go to? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: AB Grossman&#039 ; s store was the one that I had heard specific reference to on Water Street. BAKER: Uh, there used to be some Jewish stores on Water Street. DONAHUE: Oh, did your family--you mentioned that they kind of moved away from Orthodoxy. Did they keep kosher through your childhood? BAKER: Mother kept kosher as long as she lived. DONAHUE: And your father? BAKER: My father, uh, was not as kosher as my mother. DONAHUE: What about you and your own household? BAKER: Well no, no, no. DONAHUE: I just came across a quote from The Forward that I wanted to read to you and see what you have--have to say about it. &quot ; Scrap metal is one of the oldest Jewish businesses in America. As it goes the way of globalization, a particularly Jewish, if mostly unnoticed way of life disappears with it.&quot ; Do you have any reaction or thoughts about that? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: I&#039 ; ve read that beginning in the 1990s, that many respected, established names in the scrap metal industry began to kind of fall away as the--as the businesses consolidated and were--were bought by larger firms. BAKER: I think the businesses are still primarily Jewish. I&#039 ; ve been away from it for quite a while, but there&#039 ; s all Jewish names still involved. DONAHUE: What--what did the--do you recall that--that time, you were still in the business in the 1990s, was there a--um, distinct change in the atmosphere for your business? BAKER: Well, you had more consumers of scrap, it--it started out that you had your bigger consumers used a small percentage of scrap, their mix. Then later on they--built what were called electric furnaces that used one hundred percent scrap. So there was more demand for scrap. DONAHUE: More demand for scrap and--and fewer businesses, is that right? BAKER: Well, there were more businesses consuming scrap, and so the prices were better in the later years, as demand for scrap went up. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Were many of the families that you knew selling their--selling their businesses at that point, because the prices were good, and it was a time to--get out? BAKER: Uh, there was some consolidation, but, uh, I&#039 ; ve been out of the business for quite a while, but, uh, I think the same families continue to run the businesses. DONAHUE: Tell me about your decision to sell the business to the Cohen family in 2003. BAKER: Well, uh, my oldest son did not come into the business. My second son did come into the business, and he was helping to run the business, and he ran the business, and, um, he had a medical problem and, um, uh, I just thought that, uh--that I didn&#039 ; t want the medical problem to become worse if--the pressure of the business was bothering him. So I decided to sell. DONAHUE: Was that a--bittersweet decision for you? BAKER: Uh, of course, I--I&#039 ; d been working in the business all my life, and so, uh, it was a change. DONAHUE: What did you do after you sold the business? BAKER: Well I was already up in my years, so, uh, I did then what I do now, read the paper, read books. DONAHUE: What subjects interest you as far as your book-reading? BAKER: I&#039 ; m sorry? DONAHUE: What subjects do you like to read about? BAKER: Well actually, I said books, but it really mostly magazines. DONAHUE: Oh. BAKER: Periodicals. DONAHUE: Keep up with a--wide range of subjects. BAKER: Right, um-hm. DONAHUE: What are your children&#039 ; s names, and when they were--when were they born? BAKER: Michael was born in &#039 ; 47. Ben, who&#039 ; s with me, was born in &#039 ; 50. Gloria was born in &#039 ; 54, and Bobby was born in &#039 ; 58. DONAHUE: And how did you and your wife approach your children&#039 ; s Jewish education? BAKER: Well, we sent them to Sunday school. DONAHUE: Was it important to you that they--that they maintained-- BAKER: Oh, absolutely. DONAHUE: --strong Jewish identity? BAKER: Sure. DONAHUE: Did you find that their practice of Judaism differed from your own in any significant way? BAKER: Well, yes, I think so, but we accepted what they wanted to do. DONAHUE: How--how did it differ? BAKER: Oh, I don&#039 ; t think they went to services as often as we did. But they brought their children up to be Jews. DONAHUE: So all of your grandchildren have--have been raised within-- BAKER: Oh yes, absolutely. DONAHUE: --the Jewish tradition as well? BAKER: Um-hm. DONAHUE: Okay. Tell me about some of the activities that Temple Adath Israel-- BAKER: Well, I was very much involved with temple, because, as I said Anita sang, and I became involved in the administration of the temple. So, uh, I became an officer, and I was very active. DONAHUE: What were your particular--what, in particular, were you involved with? BAKER: Uh, well just the general administration of the temple, the hiring and firing of the rabbi--the hiring of the rabbis, and, uh, raising money. Building--the discussion about building a new temple, and then, decision to stay where we were, and expand that temple, that building. DONAHUE: What years were you involved, as an officer, with the temple? BAKER: Well I think, uh, in the--I was president of the temple in &#039 ; 61 to &#039 ; 63, so, uh, I was very active in the fifties. DONAHUE: And what were the--what did you see as being the greatest challenges facing the temple at that time? BAKER: Well, in the fifties, the temple was growing rapidly, and there was some discussion that we would build a new building, so, uh, we bought a piece of property on Mount Tabor road, and then decision was to sell that property and use the money, plus other monies that we raised to expand the temple structure we were in. DONAHUE: On Ashland? BAKER: On Ashland Avenue, right. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And, so the mem--the membership was expanding. What was due to, Lexmark? BAKER: Well I think originally, the temple was started by the original Jews in Lexington, the German Jews, and the synagogue was started by the, uh, Russian Jews, and, um, the synagogue services were held in Hebrew. And so, it made it difficult for the--the younger families coming in who didn&#039 ; t speak Hebrew to participate in the synagogue services. So many of them started to join the temple, and the temple was growing rapidly. And there was some discussion that we would have to bu--build a larger temple, and we bought a piece of property on Mount Tabor Road, and then decided to tell that and use the money for the expansion of the old structure. DONAHUE: Can you describe what the relationship was, in your experience, between the synagogue and the temple? BAKER: It was always fine ; no problem. DONAHUE: Were there many families that overlapped as you did between them? BAKER: Yes, there were--families belonged to both, as we did for a long time. DONAHUE: And you--you ment--you mentioned something about not learning Hebrew yourself. Did you learn enough to do your bar mitzvah, and no more than that? BAKER: Well, uh, for a young man, until he was thirteen, he studied for the bar mitzvah. But that was just to learn to sp--read Hebrew. He didn&#039 ; t learn to speak the language. So, uh, the synagogue for a long time had their services strictly in Hebrew. There was times they eventually had, uh, English and Hebrew, where the temple was more open to the English prayers. DONAHUE: Did your parents speak English together? Did they speak any other language in the home? BAKER: They would talk about something they didn&#039 ; t want me to understand, they spoke in Yiddish. (laughs). DONAHUE: Okay. Well you didn&#039 ; t learn any Yiddish? BAKER: Uh, a few words. I really, uh, did not learn the language. DONAHUE: Is there anything else that you can tell me about, uh, your experience with the temple? BAKER: Well, as you understand, the, uh--original Jews came to this land, uh--came from Orth--came from both German and Orthodox, or Russian background. The German Jews came early. Uh, they started coming here--well I think there were families here as early as the Civil War, maybe even earlier. Well, the Gratz family was even earlier. Uh, there were not enough to organize a temple until 1903. And we celebrated our hundredth anniversary in 2003. Um, the Russian Jews who came later were primarily Orthodox. But, uh, it was time, they became comfortable in the temple, with more Reform. DONAHUE: How do you feel about where the temple stands today? Do you feel that it&#039 ; s thriving, doing well, compared with when you were its president? BAKER: Well I&#039 ; m not that close to it any longer, but as far as I know, they&#039 ; re doing fine, as is the synagogue. DONAHUE: And how do you feel about the Jewish community in Lexington overall, as far as how--how well it&#039 ; s doing ; how vital it is? BAKER: Uh, I think there&#039 ; s a lot of activity. As far as I know, they&#039 ; re doing fine. DONAHUE: Are you involved with other Jewish organizations? BAKER: Uh, no, not today. DONAHUE: Have you been? BAKER: Yes, I was, uh, involved with, what was called B&#039 ; nai B&#039 ; rith, and, uh, I guess that&#039 ; s primarily it. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What was your involvement with B&#039 ; nai B&#039 ; rith? BAKER: Well, uh, I used to go to all the meetings, and if they had, uh, activities, I would try to be active. DONAHUE: What kind of focus was there in--in those meetings? What--what were they trying to accomplish? BAKER: Well, I think it was, um, a question of bringing Jews together who wanted to be together, and, uh, that was primarily it. DONAHUE: Um-hm. You mentioned your grandchildren. Would you tell me their names? BAKER: Yes, um, my oldest son--son is, um--I had a loss of memory for a minute. Uh-- DONAHUE: You want to--that&#039 ; s fine. You want to just come back to it? It&#039 ; ll--it&#039 ; ll--it&#039 ; ll probably come back to you. BAKER: Dan (??), spinning room (??) Help me with the first name. BEN: Sam. BAKER: Sam, Molly, and Joshua, and Steph, and uh, Andrew were the first child--first children of the--first child. And then Ben and--or, Ben&#039 ; s children are, uh, Greg and Roo-- BEN: No. BAKER: Uh, Greg and Aaron. And, uh, the third girl, the first girl, third child, is, uh--Max and Abby. And, uh, Abby&#039 ; s, uh, husband&#039 ; s name is Sam too. And their children are, uh, Henry, Clara, and Lucy. And then the seventh grandchild, or great-grandchild is, um--is there a child, Moe? BEN: No, Leo was the most recent. BAKER: Leo, Leo. Okay. DONAHUE: So how many great--great-grandchildren? BAKER: I have seven great-grandchildren. DONAHUE: Seven great-grandchildren. Uh-huh. BAKER: Thank you, Ben. BEN: You left out Bobby&#039 ; s daughter, Anna. BAKER: Well, Bobby&#039 ; s, uh, child is Anna. DONAHUE: Anna. Um, what--what are holidays like in your home? BAKER: Well, originally, uh, they were--it was a big occasion, but I&#039 ; m by myself now, being----------(??) here. But it&#039 ; s nothing like it was. DONAHUE: Would you have friends, neighbors over for--for Passover, for-- BAKER: Well, we used to have this--what was called Seder, and that was a big occasion. We still have it, but it&#039 ; s not as important and big as it was years ago. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What supports and challenges were there to raising your own children in Lexington, as far as, um, you--I know you mentioned they were raised in the temple. Did you--was it challenging to find the resources you need to give them the Jewish education that you wanted them to have? BAKER: No, I think we were satisfied with what the temple was doing. DONAHUE: What has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your life? BAKER: Well, I think that, uh, the country of Israel was important, uh, as I was maturing, uh, they were working towards their independence, and so, they would send representatives over to raise money, and, uh, they would have meetings, and it was more important than it is today. Uh, I&#039 ; ve been to Israel twice, and, uh, I have a connection with Israel, but, uh, it&#039 ; s not as important as it was years ago. DONAHUE: And why--why is that? BAKER: Well I think, that they were working towards their independence. Once they got their independence, uh, they--they didn&#039 ; t rely on American Jews as much as they had. DONAHUE: Do you think that the concern within Lexington&#039 ; s Jewish community for what happens in Israel has diminished significantly? BAKER: You don&#039 ; t get much discussion of it, you know. I guess there is concern, but you don&#039 ; t hear discussion. DONAHUE: Is it something that you personally give much thought to anymore? BAKER: No, I don&#039 ; t give it a lot of thought. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: I&#039 ; m glad they&#039 ; re prospering. DONAHUE: Is there anything else you&#039 ; d like to say about how things have changed within Lexington&#039 ; s Jewish community since you&#039 ; ve been--in the course of your life? BAKER: Well I think, uh, our temple activities were more important in my younger years, than they are today. Um, those Jews who want to be active, and involved, are. And those who want to step back, away from it, do that too. DONAHUE: Why do you think they--those activities were more important in the past than they are today? BAKER: What was the question? DONAHUE: Why do you think that those activities were more important in the past than they are today? BAKER: Well I think going back to when Israel was trying to get its independence, there was something to work towards. So that was more important, yes. DONAHUE: So many of the activities of the temple were focused on what was happening in Israel? BAKER: At that time, I think there was a lot of focus, and there&#039 ; s not as much today. DONAHUE: Are you talking about the period from 1948 to-- BAKER: Right. DONAHUE: --1960-something? BAKER: I&#039 ; m saying before &#039 ; 48, there was more interest in their independence. I don&#039 ; t know the--that the Jews in Lexington as--as close to Israel as they were years ago. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And do you think that that has changed the character of Lexington&#039 ; s Jewish community? BAKER: I don&#039 ; t know if it&#039 ; s changed the character, but it has changed. DONAHUE: You have the sense that, um, Jewishness is less important to the community? BAKER: I can&#039 ; t speak for others. It&#039 ; s important to me. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Are there any other leadership roles that you&#039 ; ve played in the Jewish community here in Lexington that we haven&#039 ; t talked about? BAKER: Well, I guess I was an officer of the temple, worked through the roles, worked through the different offices. I was, um, a President of an organization called B&#039 ; nai B&#039 ; rith at one time. Uh, when you&#039 ; re younger, you&#039 ; re more active ; you&#039 ; re more involved than you are when you get older. DONAHUE: So you were president of the local chapter of B&#039 ; nai B&#039 ; rith? BAKER: Yes, local chapter, right. DONAHUE: When was that? BAKER: Oh, that was in the fifties, sixties. I&#039 ; m not sure when. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What--what else haven&#039 ; t I asked you about that--that I--that you&#039 ; d like to talk about? BAKER: What--did we go over the history of the temple, of the move, or the discussion of the move, uh--back in the--when the temple was growing rapidly, um, we bought a piece of property on Mount Tabor Road. Did we discuss that? DONAHUE: Yeah, yeah. BAKER: And so that money was used to build the--what became a Sunday School addition-- DONAHUE: The expansion. BAKER: --president of the building. DONAHUE: And did that have an impact on--on your life, and on your-- BAKER: No, no. DONAHUE: --your practice? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: Did it, um-- BAKER: It was important to Lexington, though, that we do that. DONAHUE: What change did you notice that that brought to the community afterwards? BAKER: I don&#039 ; t know that it changed the community, but it, uh, allowed space for Sunday school, where before we were meeting on the stage in--uh, in the small rooms that they had in the original building. DONAHUE: Do you think that that allowed the membership to increase, that more people were--found it appealing to send their children to Sunday School as a result? BAKER: Well you had just so many Jews in the area who were interested in sending their children, so that didn&#039 ; t necessarily mean that they did send, or didn&#039 ; t send their children. If they were interested, they sent their children. DONAHUE: Anything else? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Well, thank you very much for your--for your time. DONAHUE: Well, I enjoyed talking to you. BAKER: I appreciated it. DONAHUE: I hope I gave you some information. BAKER: Yeah, you definitely gave us a lot of information. DONAHUE: Well good. BAKER: Thank you very much. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh057_jk020_baker_ohm.xml 2016oh057_jk020_baker_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh057_jk020_baker_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harold Baker, May 3, 2016 Description An account of the resource Baker's father and mother immigrated from Poland and Lithuania, respectively, in the early 1900s and settled with family in the Lexington area. His father established Baker Metal in an old hemp factory in 1921. Baker attended the College of Commerce at the University of Kentucky in preparation to take over the family business. He signed up with the United States Army in 1943, and eventually took over the business after the war in 1945. Baker talks about the decision to sell his business to the Cohens in 2003. Although his parents grew up Orthodox, he and his family began attending services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Baker attended Sunday school at Temple Adath Israel. Baker eventually became a member of the Temple Adath Israel congregation with his wife, and the congregation became a centerpiece of their social life. Baker raised his children with a strong Jewish identity, even though he believes that their practice differs from his. Baker describes his involvement with Temple Adath Israel which included administrative roles, fundraising, and contributing to Temple expansion and the hiring and firing of rabbis. Baker discusses the changes in the Jewish community in Lexington that he has witnessed, including the declining membership at Temple Adath Israel in recent years. When World War II broke out in 1939, Baker learned about the persecution of the European Jewish community from his father, who read the Jewish Daily Forward and spoke with family members in Europe. Most English newspapers did not carry information regarding the Holocaust and most school courses did not cover it. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh057_jk020 Subject The topic of the resource Small business--Ownership Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington World War, 1939-1945 Religion Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/0803c5e13d1a0558c886c670190cc6f7.jpeg 1a9965a2908547999fcfb65abe0af0e0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arwen Donahue Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Shraberg Interview Keyword Israel. Jewish businesspeople Small business--Ownership Civil rights movements--United States African Americans--Segregation College environment College students--Social conditions OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh053_jk019 Interview with David Shraberg, April 18, 2016 2016oh053_jk019_shraberg jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Judaism. Religion Jewish children Jewish families. Lexington (Ky.) Discrimination. Jews--Identity. Anti-Semitism University of Kentucky Childhood Race discrimination--Kentucky Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Israel. Jewish businesspeople Small business--Ownership Civil rights movements--United States African Americans--Segregation College environment College students--Social conditions David Shraberg Arwen Donahue 1:|21(5)|37(1)|49(5)|64(7)|80(1)|97(9)|110(11)|126(10)|143(7)|162(13)|183(5)|200(1)|215(9)|230(6)|242(2)|257(8)|278(11)|295(10)|312(4)|332(9)|351(12)|366(7)|378(12)|396(2)|411(7)|424(1)|441(2)|461(10)|479(8)|493(15)|509(7)|525(4)|540(1)|552(14)|566(3)|579(11)|596(15)|612(3)|624(9)|643(7)|658(4)|673(1)|690(10)|703(9)|718(13)|734(6)|745(16)|762(17)|775(11)|789(10)|807(12)|826(10)|846(8)|859(10)|873(8)|891(4)|908(3)|921(2)|934(11)|949(9)|962(11)|978(7)|993(4)|1010(8)|1022(12)|1044(7)|1059(13)|1076(3)|1092(6)|1109(10)|1122(1)|1135(1)|1156(8)|1174(9)|1191(9)|1211(1)|1225(15)|1246(8)|1264(8)|1280(3)|1297(1)|1311(1)|1324(8)|1340(3)|1352(16)|1368(10)|1382(8)|1397(13)|1413(11)|1426(10)|1443(5)|1457(4)|1469(12)|1486(3)|1498(3)|1513(8)|1522(1)|1530(3)|1544(12)|1561(10)|1578(4)|1592(3)|1608(1)|1624(5)|1638(13)|1655(10)|1673(7)|1685(7)|1703(15)|1717(11)|1731(8)|1744(10)|1760(3)|1773(6)|1790(1)|1804(9)|1817(10)|1832(11)|1846(6)|1865(3)|1880(14)|1894(9)|1907(8)|1923(5)|1937(7)|1951(8)|1967(13)|1982(5)|1999(4)|2013(7)|2028(7)|2045(11)|2061(2)|2077(11)|2090(7)|2105(4)|2119(9)|2136(6) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253327321&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family's immigration from Lithuania to Somerset, Kentucky in 1900 Okay, let's just start, um, by--would you just tell me what your full name is, for the record. David Shraberg describes his family's immigration from Lithuania to Somerset in 1900 and how his grandfather worked as a peddler to bring his bride-to-be over from Lithuania. His family eventually moved to Lexington in order to be part of a larger Jewish community. He also describes how his family name changed through the years due to immigration. Finally, he discusses his grandfather's establishment of a scrapyard on Manchester Street. Bess Smole Shraberg ; Dating ; David Shraberg ; East European immigrants ; Ed Munich ; Extended family ; Family life ; Family values ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; History ; Hyman Shraberg ; Intermarriage ; Jewish communities ; Jewish marriage ; Kentucky ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Lithuania ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Max Munich ; Moving ; Name change ; Peddlers ; Relatives ; Sarah Munich ; Scherberg ; Schraberg ; Shreiberg ; Somerset (Ky.) ; Winnie Katz Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 746 Helping out in the scrap metal business So your father was raised here in Lexington. Shraberg's father took over the family scrap business when his father fell ill with Hodgkin's disease, and helped send his brother and sister to the University of Kentucky. He met his wife, Shraberg's mother, through Ohavay Zion Synagogue's rabbi Winnie Katz, who set them up on a blind date. Shraberg still has his parents' handwritten love letters. Working in the scrapyard as a child gave Shraberg insight into human behavior, eventually leading him to a career in neurology. He describes the business interactions that he saw and explains the healthy competition that exists between the area's scrap metal businesses. Baker family ; Bess Smole Shraberg ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Competitors ; Courting ; Detroit (Mich.) ; Family values ; Henry Clay High School (Lexington, Ky.) ; History ; Hyman Baker ; Hyman Shraberg ; Izzy Schwartz ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish marriage ; Kentucky Scrap Material Company ; Scrap metal ; Small businesses ; Winnie Katz Childhood ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 1194 Celebrating Jewish identity as a child in the 1950s and 1960s What were your--uh, you, you said you had one brother and one sister? When Shraberg's grandmother would visit Lexington during the winter, Shraberg would attend High Holiday services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue. However, his family eventually became members of Temple Adath Israel because the services were more accessible and there were more children. For example, Shraberg remembers a moment from his childhood of a Yom Kippur service at the Synagogue where the men would prostrate themselves, which made him uncomfortable as a child. He also discusses how his sister was not expected to complete a bat mitzvah. Bat mitzvahs ; Family life ; Gender equality ; Gender in Judaism ; Generational change ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Nancy Ann Shraberg ; Religious services ; Temple ; William Leonard Shraberg Childhood ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1661 Difficulties in maintaining a Jewish identity in Lexington in the 1940s and 1950s Did you--were the Jewish, um, rituals important to you? Did you enjoy them? Did you enjoy going to, going to Temple? What did it mean to you as a child and a young man? Although he enjoyed attending services at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg discusses the difficulties that existed while he was growing up in maintaining a Jewish identity in a smaller Jewish community, such as having to miss school to attend High Holiday services. He enjoyed the High Holidays and Passover, but Christmas was difficult for him as a child because he didn't understand why Santa Claus didn't visit his house. At school, kids would pick on him for &quot ; killing Jesus.&quot ; As a result, Shraberg got into a few fistfights. Family life ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Reform Judaism ; Religious life ; Religious practices Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1945 Experiences with anti-Semitism in the 1950s and 1960s And, um, so did you re, resent at all the-- you mentioned a little while ago that the, the frustration of being told by some of your peers, &quot ; Oh you--Why did you kill Jesus?&quot ; And did you--and that you were one of the few Jews in a predominantly Christian culture. Shraberg discusses the anti-Semitism he experienced while growing up in Lexington. He remembers being called slurs by other children, Jews being barred from membership at the Idle Hour Country Club, and an incident where a neighbor tried to petition the neighborhood to get his family to convert to Christianity or move. He also mentions how it was much more difficult to maintain a Jewish identity in a smaller community such as Lexington. Broth family ; Cotillion ; Country clubs ; Culture ; Family life ; Family values ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Holocaust ; Idle Hour Country Club ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Kennedy family ; Martin family ; Prejudice Anti-semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. 17 2681 Witnessing racism as a child in Lexington in the 1950s and 1960s So where did you attend, uh, school? Elementary and, and junior high and high school? Shraberg remembers seeing racism against African-Americans in Lexington during the 1950s and 1960s. In particular he discusses the segregation in schools and institutions, such as the Ben Ali Theater where African-Americans could not sit with whites. He laments that he did not realize the discrimination at the time and only became aware of it during the Civil Rights Movement. He also tells a story about a time when his father rehired an African-American worker after he went to jail, which was practically unheard of at the time. Ben Ali Theater (Lexington, Ky.) ; Education ; Employment ; Generations ; Henry Clay High School (Lexington, Ky.) ; Jewish businesses ; Kentucky Scrap Material Company ; Prejudice ; Public schools ; Relations with African Americans ; Small businesses African Americans--Segregation ; Childhood ; Civil rights movements--United States ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Race discrimination--Kentucky ; Racism ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.046, -84.496 17 Location of the former Ben Ali theater on East Main Street, across from Phoenix Park. (Lexington, Ky.) http://lexhistory.org/wikilex/ben-ali-theater Article about the history of the Ben Ali theater in Lexington, Kentucky. 3078 Attending the University of Kentucky in the 1960s And then you headed to UK that year. What, what made you decide to go to--to attend UK for college? While Shraberg was attending the University of Kentucky, he played keyboard in a band called the Magnificent Titans, named after one of the United States' original intercontinental ballistic missiles. They played at proms, cotillions, fraternity parties and had so many gigs that they had to join the AFL-CIO union. While attending the University of Kentucky, there was a tradition where his freshmen class would have to wear a beanie with &quot ; 69&quot ; stitched on the front. Shraberg also remembers that he stood out as a &quot ; yokel&quot ; among the campus Jewish population because there were more Northern Jews on campus than Southern Jews. &quot ; Magnificent Titans&quot ; ; American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL–CIO) ; Beanies ; Family values ; Fraternity ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Hazing ; Intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) ; Jewish friends ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish population ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Music ; Northern Jews ; Unions College environment ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 17 3473 Anti-Semitism in Greek life at the University of Kentucky And, uh, I, I had, uh, I think it was in the second year that I decided that maybe I should be more social, so I decided to join a fraternity, and that's when I really became more aware of all the anti-Semitism that was still in the campus. While attending the University of Kentucky, Shraberg rushed for Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) and became aware of the rampant anti-Semitism and racism in Greek life on campus. The incidents would range from comments and slurs to refusing Jews into fraternities. Shraberg was not impressed with Greek life and quit after a year. However, when the new medical campus opened up, Jews from around the country moved to Lexington and he made friends with Jews and non-Jews in his pre-medicine program. Culture ; Dating ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Joe DiMasso ; Northern Jews ; Population growth ; Prejudice ; Southern Jews ; University of Kentucky Hospital ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; College students--Attitudes. ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; Discrimination. ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; Racism ; University of Kentucky 38.035, -84.499 17 422 Rose Lane, Lexington, Kentucky. Location of former Zeta Beta Tau fraternity house. 4152 Developing a Kentucky identity while at the University of Kentucky So you mentioned--you very kindly sent me a bio that you'd written about your years in UK which was-- Attending the University of Kentucky instilled in Shraberg a pride in being from Kentucky. It also gave him a unique Jewish experience that was different from Jews in larger cities. This unique perspective of being an outsider influenced Shraberg to pursue an education and career in psychiatry and medicine. Education ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Gentiles ; Holidays ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Kentucky ; Michael Canarac ; Prejudice ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Small town life ; Stereotypes Antisemitism ; College students--Attitudes. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Discrimination ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 17 4800 Demonstrations at the University of Kentucky in the 1960s Um, you also mentioned in the bio that you sent, um, the political upheaval of the time. And, uh, what impact did that have on you? Reading about the Six Day War and hearing students describe Israelis as &quot ; tough&quot ; gave Shraberg his first real sense of pride in being Jewish on a global scale. He also discusses the political tensions, ranging from the Civil Rights Movement to demonstrations against the Vietnam War on the University of Kentucky's campus during the 1970s. Although he did experience some discrimination as a Jew, it was mostly confined to anti-Semitism in the Greek system. He also describes a trip to Europe he took with his brother in 1968 to visit his extended family, including a stop in East Berlin before the Wall fell. Berlin Wall ; Civil rights ; Communism ; Europe ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Holocaust ; Immigration ; International relations ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Jewish networks ; Jewish population ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Political involvement ; Politics ; Protests ; Six Day War ; Stereotypes ; Vietnam War ; Zionism African Americans--Segregation ; Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Civil rights movements--United States ; Discrimination. ; Integration ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 52.509, 13.372 17 Location of the former Berlin Wall in Berlin, Germany. http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt75736m0s6q_252_8 Image of a student protest in downtown Lexington, 1969. Image courtesy of the Kentucky Digital Library. 5871 The selling of Kentucky Scrap Material Company / raising children Jewish in Lexington Um, I did want to loop back and ask a follow-up question about the, um--your parents' business. Did they--what happened to the business, and did they have any hopes that you would--that you or your brother would take it over? Shraberg's father ran the Kentucky Scrap Material Company until he died at the age of 77, but was never disappointed in his son for not taking over the business because of his medical career. Shraberg also discusses the choice to raise his family in Lexington and the meaning of Judaism and the Jewish community across the generations. Baker family ; Building businesses ; Child-rearing ; Civic involvement ; Competitors ; Family businesses ; Family life ; Family values ; Generational change ; Generations ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Gentiles ; Intermarriage ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish education ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish tradition ; Kentucky Scrap Material Company ; Leadership ; Membership ; Scrap metal ; Small businesses ; Small town life ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Kentucky ; University of Kentucky Hospital Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.054, -84.514 17 Former location of Kentucky Scrap Material Company on Manchester Street, Lexington, Kentucky. 6937 Addressing declining Temple membership in the 2000s And as an adult, um, member of the Jewish community here in Lexington and with your experiences being president of the temple, what kind of observations or insights have you developed about the nature of the Jewish community here? While a leader at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg wrestled with the problem of dwindling temple membership due to intermarriage and acculturation, and an aging congregation. He served as Temple president from 2006 to 2008. Decline of Jewish population ; Jewish communities ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Religious services ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 7275 Opinions about Israel in the Lexington Jewish community So you mentioned earlier about, um, how--about Zionism and Israel and how that became important to you when you were in college. Shraberg attributes the persecution of Jews during the Holocaust to his strong belief in Zionism, although he is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. The issue of human rights in Israel is a contentious issue within the Temple Adath Israel congregation because Reform Judaism tends to be more politically active in social justice issues. As a result, Temple leadership is very careful about how certain events are executed and tend to avoid politics altogether. Holocaust ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Political involvement ; Reform Judaism ; Zionism Israel. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Religion and politics 17 7698 Current relationship to Judaism What's your experience been of the relationships between the members of Ohavay Zion and Temple Adath Israel? With the dwindling Jewish population in Lexington, Shraberg thinks that it would be beneficial for the congregations at Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue to merge, although he doubts that will happen. He discusses his wife's experience with Hadassah, but he laments that his children were not as involved in Jewish organizations as kids. Child welfare ; Child-rearing ; Civic clubs ; Civic involvement ; Community involvement ; Congregations ; Culture ; Decline of Jewish population ; Hadassah ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 17 interview David Shraberg describes his family's immigration from Lithuania to Somerset in 1900 and how his grandfather worked as a peddler to bring his bride-to-be over from Lithuania. His family eventually moved to Lexington in order to be part of a larger Jewish community. He discusses his grandfather's establishment of a scrapyard on Manchester Street. Shraberg's father took over the family scrap business when his father fell ill with Hodgkin's disease. Working in the scrapyard as a child gave Shraberg insight into human behavior, eventually leading him to a career in neurology. Although he enjoyed attending services at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg discusses the difficulties that existed while he was growing up in maintaining a Jewish identity in a smaller Jewish community, such as having to miss school to attend High Holiday services. Shraberg discusses the anti-Semitism he experienced while growing up in Lexington. He remembers seeing racism against African-Americans in Lexington during the 1950s and 1960s. While attending the University of Kentucky, Shraberg rushed for Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) and became aware of the rampant anti-Semitism and racism in Greek life on campus. The incidents would range from comments and slurs to refusing Jews into fraternities. He also discusses the political tensions, ranging from the Civil Rights Movement to demonstrations against the Vietnam War on the University of Kentucky's campus during the 1970s. Shraberg discusses the choice to raise his family in Lexington and the meaning of Judaism and the Jewish community across the generations. While a leader at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg wrestled with the problem of dwindling temple membership due to intermarriage and acculturation, and an aging congregation. He served as Temple president from 2006 to 2008. The issue of human rights in Israel is a contentious issue within the Temple Adath Israel congregation because Reform Judaism tends to be more politically active in social justice issues. As a result, Temple leadership is very careful about how certain events are executed and tend to avoid politics altogether. DONAHUE: Okay, let&#039 ; s just start by, uh--would you just tell me what your full name is, for the record. SHRABERG: Yes. My full name is David Shraberg, no middle name. DONAHUE: Okay. That&#039 ; s easy. And then, what is your date of birth, and where were you born? SHRABERG: I was born, uh, right here in Lexington, actually down the street from UK [University of Kentucky], at what was once the city hospital, Good Samaritan Hospital. So I was born, I think, on a Tuesday, on April 15, 1947, right here, just down the block. DONAHUE: Okay. And what are your parents&#039 ; names? SHRABERG: My parents&#039 ; names are--my father&#039 ; s name was Hyman Shraberg, and he actually was born in Kentucky and, uh, lived in Lexington. My mother&#039 ; s name was Bess Smole Shraberg. She originally was from Detroit, but, uh, she was Jewish as well. My family goes back over 100 years, because I was actually named after my grandfather, my father&#039 ; s father, David Shraberg, who immigrated from a small town in Lithuania to Kentucky in about 1900, 1901, and, uh, sent for his bride, uh, Sarah Munich (??) Shraberg, and they married and had three children, the youngest being my father. So, uh, that&#039 ; s kind of my Kentucky roots, through my father&#039 ; s side of the family. DONAHUE: Would you just spell your mother&#039 ; s maiden name for us? SHRABERG: Yes. Bess Smole, S-m-o-l-e, Shraberg. DONAHUE: Okay. Uh, now, did your parents and/or maternal or paternal grandparents&#039 ; names change when, uh, they came to America? SHRABERG: Yes. It&#039 ; s rather interesting. They originally were able to trace the family back to this town in Lithuania, and I can&#039 ; t quite pronounce it, Azwaca (??), but it&#039 ; s in what&#039 ; s now present-day Lithuania, and the spellings have been everything from--the original spelling was Schreiberg, S-c-h-r-e-i-b-e-r-g. And my grandfather David Schraberg, uh, there--we have a picture of them on their little shtetl in the little town in Lithuania, they were twins--my, my grandfather David was twins with another, uh,--his twin brother, they were, uh, identical twins, and they immigrated, and his brother settled in England and had five children, whereas my father came over as a Schreiberg, but somehow either--they came in, actually, not through Ellis Island ; they immigrated through Boston and ended up in Kentucky with a Shraberg instead of a Schreiberg, but we actually have, uh, a family, another brother immigrated and retained the name S-c-h-r-e-i-b-e-r-g, and they have, uh, family--we have family in Cincinnati called Schreiberg. So there&#039 ; s Schreiberg, Schraberg, Scherberg--uh, several of the family immigrated and their names changed depending on location. So, unfortunately, or fortunately, one of the most common problems I had growing up in Kentucky is people always put a C in between the S and the H, and it originally was, but we lost it somehow between Boston, when we came in through immigration in Boston and when my grandfather ended up in, uh, Lexington. DONAHUE: Uh-hm. So it sounds like you keep in touch with some of your extended family, you know where they all are-- SHRABERG: Yes. The Shraberg side, uh, we did keep in touch--because of the twin brother connection and that another brother settled in Cincinnati, there&#039 ; s been a kind of a--we did--growing up, I actually visited several of my relatives in England when, uh, I was--actually, in 1968, when I was at the university I made my first trip to Europe to visit my older brother, who was in the service, had been discharged in Berlin and we met a bunch of our mishpochener (??) kin who were the twin brothers&#039 ; , my grandfather&#039 ; s twin brothers&#039 ; kids. That was a real eye-opener, not only of the difference, to some extent, of English society at that time, the class system, and getting to meet, uh, relatives all over England--th-the five children settled in different parts of England, one of whom I met that never knew he was Jewish. He was raised in Scotland, his father died at a young age, and it was kind of interesting, I was the first person to let him know he was at least half Jewish. (laughs). It was fascinating. So yeah, we stayed in touch, and one of my cousins in England keeps a--nowadays, you know, with digitalization it&#039 ; s amazing, we actually have a Shraberg genie or, uh, where we can hook in all the relatives all over, uh, really, England--the Shrabergs ended up in England and the United States, a few in South Africa, and then they emigrated to Israel. Uh, of course probably the vast majority of the family in Lithuania were killed during the Holocaust, but enough got out that we have a substantial number of roots all over, uh,--a lot still in Kentucky and Ohio, uh, New York, and England. DONAHUE: Interesting. That&#039 ; s wonderful that you can--that you can keep in touch with them. SHRABERG: Yes. DONAHUE: And what about your parents&#039 ; occupations? SHRABERG: Well, uh, my father was born--it&#039 ; s a funny story, my fa--and this is so touching in today&#039 ; s world. Of course, uh, my grandfather, uh, s--the story is that when they ended up in England--of course, back then you couldn&#039 ; t get on a plane, or you had to take a tedious route. (coughs). He didn&#039 ; t like England because of the class system, so he came to the United States, and he actually had some--uh, not him, but his--he was betrothed in the old country, Lithuania, to what became my grandmother, Sarah Munich (??), her name was, and, uh, he came to Lexington because some of her brothers, Ed Munich and Max Munich, lived here, and they were working--I think one was a butcher and one had a business. So when he came here, he came here like a lot of these European Jews did because he had some family. They just happened not to be in New York or Chicago, but in this little town of Lexington, uh, which is, uh, how he ended up here. And they s--told him there wasn&#039 ; t any work in Lexington, but you could go up to Somerset, Kentucky, and you could probably make a living there. So he actually lived in Somerset, Kentucky, a Lithuanian Jew who spoke no English, and he collected rags and ginseng. He would get on the-- ride the trains and buy ginseng, which was even then valuable, from the folks up in eastern Kentucky, and he made enough money to send for his bride. Picked her up on the train in Richmond, and because back then you didn&#039 ; t live with somebody, they actually got married in Richmond, Kentucky, and they lived in Somerset, uh, for about ten years. Uh, you know, an--this really has the other side of Kentucky, how wonderful Kentucky was. A doctor, uh, I can&#039 ; t remember his name, I think it was Dr. Whitehouse, was the obstetrician and family practitioner in Somerset, where they lived and rented space for this little Lithuanian Jew and this other--who spoke no English. The wife of the doctor taught my grandmother English, best she could, and, uh, they, you know, when times were not good they would let them forego a month&#039 ; s rent. So my father and my oldest--my uncle, who&#039 ; s the oldest, was born there, and my father was born by midwife in Somerset, and then when my aunt, the youngest, was born, uh, her name is Mary, which is not a Jewish name, but my grandmother was so thrilled, uh, and loved these people so much, she named my aunt after the wife of the doctor, the doctor&#039 ; s wife-- DONAHUE: --how interesting-- SHRABERG: --so, uh, they all moved to Lexington, uh, when my father was, I think, fourteen and my uncle sixteen, and the reason was that, as you can imagine, there were two Jewish families in Somerset, Kentucky, and back then, uh, the parents were not so concerned about the boys marrying outside the faith, I don&#039 ; t think they would have, but they were very worried about their daughter. So they moved to Lexington to be near a Jewish community, uh, although my father told me that on the High Holidays, and sometimes on Shabbat, they would drive down through the old, uh, I think it was called Hall&#039 ; s Gap--back then they didn&#039 ; t have the roads--uh, and there was part of it which went through the river, and there was a picture in the old family album of my uncle and my, uh, father pushing a Model T across the water so they could get on the other side to go into Lexington to attend services and stay for the night with relatives. That&#039 ; s kind of the life they lived, and then they moved to Lexington around 1917, I think, my father and mother, uh, after they got married, uh, and my grandfather--I mean, sorry, my grandfather and my grandmother moved to Lexington around 1917. DONAHUE: So why was it that they were not as concerned about the boys marrying outside of the faith as they were about their daughter? SHRABERG: Well, it may not--I think it was partly dating. For whatever reason, uh, I think the boys&#039 ; dating was kind of a little less--it was much more of protective of females, that they just didn&#039 ; t want to trust their daughter falling in love with a gentile boy from, uh, Somerset, Kentucky. Whereas I guess they felt the boys were more acceptable. And that sort of extended in my generation, that, uh, the boys were less sheltered to some extent than the girls from the possibility of dating and, you know, possibly--not necessarily marrying, but dating, I should really say. They really wanted to come up to Lexington after my aunt became old enough, you know. She started elementary school here in Lexington, so, uh, they left and moved back--moved to Lexington. They had more family, and there was a temple here. DONAHUE: Right, yeah. SHRABERG: And a synagogue. DONAHUE: So just to be sure I understand, do you think that, uh, your grandparents were not so concerned about the boys marrying outside of the faith, or are you just talking about dating? SHRABERG: I really mean dating. I think marrying would have been verboten, been very upsetting. Intermarriage was, you know, not, uh--that generation, would have been a bad thing. I think both gentiles and Jews did not think of intermarrying. It was like, basically like an African American and a white, a Caucasian marrying. It was not--it was not done. Certainly it was considered not what a parent would want. DONAHUE: Uh-hm. So they had that added impetus to move to Lexington for other children-- SHRABERG: To be around Jewish community, yes. DONAHUE: And then, uh, what kind of work did they find once they came here? SHRABERG: Well, my grandfather opened up--which is, again, traditional in the rural part of this country. If you weren&#039 ; t a merchant, you had a scrapyard. Uh, they were like first-generation immigrants, they spoke broken English, so I, uh--they opened up a scrapyard, scrap metal and auto parts, in Lexington, uh, right off of, uh, Lyle Road, well, off Manchester Street originally, down in that area. So that&#039 ; s--they did scrap metal, and basically bought scrap iron par--junk and then they would sell it, you know, to purchasers for money. DONAHUE: Sorry, this is your grandparents? SHRABERG: My grandparents, yes, my grandfather. My--my grandmother Sarah didn&#039 ; t work, she just talked on the phone all the time. (both laugh) In Yiddish, by the way, mainly. She spoke--that was her primary language, was Yiddish. DONAHUE: Who was she talking to? SHRABERG: Other Jewish women who spoke Yiddish, I think, you know. And if they didn&#039 ; t speak Yiddish, she&#039 ; d still speak Yiddish to them. I remember her on a little--she had a little dial phone, she loved to talk. She was a little--small little lady, about four-foot-ten, uh, and she just, uh--very powerful. She was sort of your classical Yiddishe momma. Both her sons and her daughter, uh, she ruled with an iron fist, but, uh, she was small, petite, but powerful. You know--this idea that, uh, the Jewish man, you know, goes to services and, and, you know, does all the praying, and the little Jewish woman stays home and, you know, takes care of the house, that was the kind of Eastern European model, but if my grandmother was an example, she was definitely the ruler of the household. I mean--she may not have had be--to learn Hebrew, she may not have had to go to synagogue and do all the things that the man did, but she took--they, of course, kept the home, and she, uh, all through my uncle&#039 ; s, and my uncle and father&#039 ; s lifetime, uh, they would always go to lunch, while she was alive, at her house, even after marriage. She&#039 ; d insist they come have lunch, which didn&#039 ; t go down well with, maybe with their wives, but that&#039 ; s the way it was. She was a domin--dominating--little small, but dominating little lady who spoke broken English, and Yiddish was her first language. DONAHUE: So your father was raised here in Lexington. SHRABERG: My father moved to Lexington when he was about, I think, twelve or thirteen, or fou--fourteen. He was the middle child, uh, and he started school--he went to Henry Clay, the old Henry Clay High School here in Lexington, yes, and finished--that&#039 ; s kind of an interesting story, another immigrant story. Um, around the time that my father--he graduated early at sixteen. He was, I think, a very smart man, but my uncle had attended University of Kentucky, and my aunt. Uh, my grandfather David, who moved here, became sick with Hodgkin&#039 ; s disease, which is now curable, but back then it wasn&#039 ; t. So because he was the younger son and because his older brother was already in university, and because my aunt, who grew up in Lexington, was a girl, he had to pretty much forsake any further education, and he began working, uh, running the junkyard, uh, and worked there the rest of his life, and so helped send his brother through college here at UK, and then later on his sister. And then, of course that the--so my father never got beyond a high school degree, but he graduated at sixteen from the old Henry Clay here in Lexington. DONAHUE: Okay. And what about your mother&#039 ; s family? SHRABERG: Well, my mother&#039 ; s family, uh, that&#039 ; s an interesting Jewish connection, because there weren&#039 ; t that many Jewish women to marry in Lexington, obviously. So, uh, my father fell in love with my mother on a blind date. Uh, in Lexington there were two, and I&#039 ; m sure other people will tell you, this is very typical of these small Southern provincial towns, there was always--the old joke is, you know, if you have two Jews, you have three synagogues, one that one goes to, one the other, and one that neither go to. Well, we had a reform temple, and because we were close to Cincinnati, which is the reform Jewish movement, really, that&#039 ; s where it started in this country, uh, we had a very strong reform presence. Uh, the reform synagogue was primarily, uh, members were Ger--Jews of German extraction, older families, so they saw themselves as more the upper-class Jews. The synagogue was more settled by Eastern European Jews, who were more into the conservative, orthodox treatment. So my--to make a long story short, uh, my, uh--one of the rabbis at the synagogue, named Winnie Katz, married my mother&#039 ; s older sister. My mother grew up--they emigrated from Russia and lived in, uh--emigrated through Canada and grew up in Detroit and Chicago. So he got a job, Winnie Katz, as the rabbi here at, uh, the synagogue, Ohavay Zion, and so somehow she saw my father, my--and fixed a blind date up, brought my mother down from Chicago at the time, and they fell in love, and after two years of courtship they married. So it was through that connection that, uh, my mother&#039 ; s sister, for a period of time, lived in Lexington as the wife of a synagogue rabbi. (laughs). DONAHUE: Oh, okay. SHRABERG: So that&#039 ; s kind of a--and I actually still have their love letters. There&#039 ; s a huge shoebox, uh, which is fascinating, because, uh, somehow I fell into it. Back then, letter writing was an art. I mean--of course nowadays students don&#039 ; t even lea--learn cursive, but they communicated--they dated a few times, she&#039 ; d come down for services, no hanky-panky. (laughs). You know, they might&#039 ; ve kissed, and, uh, had all these wonderful love letters, both hers to him and him to her, some very romantic, two or three pages, beautiful script, so-- DONAHUE: This is your mother and father? SHRABERG: Mother and father, yeah. So somehow I ended up with the shoebox, they&#039 ; re both deceased, of their love letters. And then they got married in Lexington, uh, in the, uh, uh, I think in the late thirties, right around the time World War II broke out. DONAHUE: Uh-hm. So her family was from Chicago-- SHRABERG: Her family was from Chicago, uh--Detroit and Chicago, they lived in both. They originally were from, uh, Russia, from, uh, an, uh, area called, uh, Berdichev, actually, which was a large Jewish town in, I think it&#039 ; s in Belarus or Ukraine, that area. DONAHUE: Okay. And so--there wer--was a handful of Jewish families who were involved in the, uh, scrap metal business in Lexington, is that right? SHRABERG: That&#039 ; s right. The Shrabergs, uh--my uncle, uh, was in the Navy during World War II. When he came back, because of, I guess, there wasn&#039 ; t much opportunity, he ended up working in the junkyard with my father. There was another family called the Bakers, uh, who were, uh, into scrap iron, and there was another family called the Gordons, and there was another guy named Schwartz, Izzy Schwartz. So there were like four scrap metal and car parts businesses in Lexington all run by Jewish families back in the fifties and sixties. DONAHUE: And was there a sense of, of, competition among the different families, kind of trying to keep a corner on the market? SHRABERG: Well, there was kind of a little competition. There was some, uh, you might say, selective marketing. My father, uh, primarily, uh--he had about fourteen acres of scrap cars, back in the day when you didn&#039 ; t have all the computerized stuff. So people, if they had a wreck or needed a part, would buy a quarter-panel or carburetor or brake drum, you hav--wouldn&#039 ; t go through the dealers. And he specialized in that area. He sold a lot of his scrap metal to either the Gordon family or the Baker family. So there was kind of a, you know, division, to some extent. Uh, there wasn&#039 ; t direct competition, although, you know, I think there might have been if my dad would&#039 ; ve sold a lot of scrap iron to the government, you know, because they were really into scrap. So the Bakers would sometimes, you know, buy the scrap from my dad, and then they would crush it and sell it. So there was competition, but there was also a division, sort of, of specialization amongst the families, uh, in Lexington. So there was that going on too. DONAHUE: Did you grow up helping out in the family business? SHRABERG: I did. I wouldn&#039 ; t say helping out, that would be a little too grandiose. (laughs). When I was a teenager, I was more into, maybe not my dad&#039 ; s--I had one sister and a brother, and my brother played piano, he&#039 ; s a musician, he was really not into cars and junk. I got into it for a couple of years in the summer ; the last two years of high school I, uh, worked in the scrapyard, and, uh, I learned more about human behavior and human--I&#039 ; m a psychiatrist and neurologist, primarily a psychiatrist--I learned more about people working in the junkyard than I ever did taking any courses. It was, yeah--so it was fascinating. I really learned how you can make money, you know. I can remember a car would come into the yard that my dad&#039 ; s wrecker would pickup for like twenty-five dollars, and, uh, some guy would say, uh, &quot ; Hyman, I need those tires. How much will you give me those tires for?&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll sell those to you for fifty dollars,&quot ; he&#039 ; d just take them right off the car before they went to the yard, so he&#039 ; d make 100 percent profit right there, all in cash. So I said, this is an amazing business. I really learned--(laughs)--what business is all about, how you make money that way. It was fun, and I&#039 ; d go out in the yard--this was before you had OSHA [Occupational Safety and Health Administration] and all that, you know, we&#039 ; d burn--there&#039 ; d be snakes out in that yard and we&#039 ; d be burning quarter-panels off with torches and, you know. It&#039 ; s lucky I didn&#039 ; t get blown up. But it was fun. I did it for two summers and had a good time. In high school. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What were your, uh--you said you had one brother and one sister? SHRABERG: Yes. DONAHUE: What were their names and ages, relative to you-- SHRABERG: My brother&#039 ; s name was, uh, William Leonard Shraberg, and he was the middle child. He was older than I. And then the oldest was my sister, which is kind of funny, because it sounds so Southern, her name was Nancy Ann Shraberg, and she was the eldest. So I was the youngest of three. DONAHUE: Okay, so how much older were they-- SHRABERG: --my brother was, uh, three years older and my sister was five years older. It was, uh--in one level, we grew up in a kind of, uh, Andy Hardy, &quot ; Leave It to Beaver&quot ; world. We--I was born in Chevy Chase, in a little elm-lined neighborhood, the--and it was very much, on the surface, a very, uh, you would think it was perfect. It was right out of &quot ; Leave It to Beaver.&quot ; Tree-lined street on Cassidy Avenue. DONAHUE: So you described how your parents had ties to both the synagogue and the temple. How did you, uh--where did you attend services? SHRABER: Uh, while my grandma--my grandmother, after my grandmother died, whom I was named after, so he died in, I think, &#039 ; 46, I was born in &#039 ; 47--uh, my grandmother, for a number of years, uh, would live in Lexington after that, in her home on Kilmore Court, during the summer, spring, and fall. My aunt, who attended University of Kentucky, uh, married a New York boy, Jewish boy, and moved to New York, so during the summers--I got that reversed. In the summers, uh, my aun--grandmother would live in New York, in the winter she&#039 ; d stay in Kentucky, fall, winter, because she wanted the weather better. DONAHUE: And this was your Lithuanian grandmother? SHRABER: Lithuanian--the Schreiberg, yes. So I would go to, uh--I&#039 ; d have to go to services as a child, uh, in the synagogue. Uh, m--my parents, as my brother and sister got older, felt there were a lot more kids in the temple, and, uh, they--I think they liked the temple because it was reform and it was more part of, you know, it was more modern. It was user-friendly for Jews, you know, so they joined the temple. So all three of us--my brother and sister spent a year or two growing up in the synagogue, but we all switched over to the temple. But on holidays, High Holidays, we always had to go to the synagogue, because my--until my grandmother died--she moved permanently to New York sometime in the late fifties--uh, we had to attend High Holiday services there. And, uh, very often Passover, uh--sometimes we&#039 ; d have to spend Passover with her, with her friends off of--a place called Kilmore Court, where there&#039 ; s a small--some Jewish communities near the synagogue. The old Joe Bologna&#039 ; s is over there. So, uh, I did go to the services, and, uh, the synagogue back then was very, very much more Eastern European. During the High Holidays, I remember--there&#039 ; s a part of the Yom Kippur service where the, uh, men of the congregation throw themselves on the floor and prostrate themselves because of what sin--it&#039 ; s very dramatic. Uh, and I can remember as a child being kind of, just, I was almost like terrified, what&#039 ; s going on, like somebody&#039 ; s having a stroke. But these men would throw themselves on the floor. You don&#039 ; t see that in the synagogues anymore, at least most of them. So it was a dif--very much of an old world, there was a dramatic difference back then between the synagogue, which was right out of--could have been right out of a Eastern European little shtetl, orthodox or conservative, versus the temple, which was very modern and American. So obviously, growing up as a kid, I really liked going to the temple, the service was more English and it was more American to me, it&#039 ; s more what I could identify with. DONAHUE: Right, right. Did anyone who attended the synagogue then look more orthodox? I mean, was there a difference in-- SHRABERG: Some of them would. Some of them would wear the beard. Of course they would wear the--at services they would definitely wear the tallit and the coverings. You couldn&#039 ; t necessarily tell the difference by looks. You didn&#039 ; t have the Hasidic, you know, Eastern European, uh, you know. But everybody knew which families in Lexington were synagoguers, so to speak, and who were the temple people, and it generally broke down along the lines of the older--(clears throat)--German Jewish families were temple and the other, Russians and Eastern Europeans, were synagogue people, although there were some exceptions. DONAHUE: How did the numbers divide? Were they--about how many were there in each congregation as you were growing up? SHRABERG: As--well, interestingly enough, very quickly after World War II, uh, the, uh, temple grew very much more moder--there were a lot of changes in, in Jewish life, I think, in Lexington and I think all over the country. Uh, it was much more user-friendly, uh, as far as you could go to services on a Friday and you&#039 ; d have your weekend if you wanted. Uh, there were lots more kids that were, uh, in the temple, uh, and it&#039 ; s sort of been that way traditionally over the last forty years. So more and more, the temple, temple grew, the synagogue kind of stayed at a similar size, you know. I think right now in Lexington, the synagogue has maybe 200 families, the temple 300-plus families. But for a while there were hardly any kids, uh, in the, uh, temple. My parents joined the temple partly, my--and again, this has something to do with how times have changed. When I was growing up, girls did not have the traditional bar--bat mitzvah, which is the female bar mitzvah. It wasn&#039 ; t done. Women in the old world weren&#039 ; t expected to learn Hebrew or do any of that, they just learned to be a good Jewish wife and listen to their husband. (laughs). I mean, so, my--but when my brother became of age, uh, my parents really wanted to join--they liked the temple, uh, and by then my grandmother was only here during, for the High Holidays and Passover, so they didn&#039 ; t have to placate her, but, uh, for a period of time, because they wanted to be modern--the German reform movement, a lot of temples did not, uh, do bar mitzvahs, uh, but they started doing bar mitzvahs about a year or two before my brother was to be bar mitzvahed, so that really--my parents joined at that point. I think my brother was the second or third, uh, boy that was bar mitzvahed at the temple here in Lexington. Before then, they didn&#039 ; t do it, because it was not reform. So they joined on that basis, and, uh, I don&#039 ; t know how we got to that question, but that&#039 ; s how we ended up over there. I think that&#039 ; s where a lot of families with children then started joining, when bar mitzvahs became, uh, part of the temple life, because that kept a lot of people who would&#039 ; ve wanted to join away, because they wanted their sons, originally, bar mitzvahed, and of course it&#039 ; s now their daughters and sons. DONAHUE: Right. So your sister did not have a bat mitzvah. SHRABERG: She did not have a bat mitzvah. She was not expected, really, to learn Hebrew. She did have a confirmation service, uh, which was kind of a reform touch. That&#039 ; s a service they have for, I think it&#039 ; s, uh, Shavuot, the, the spring festival. Um, maybe it is Shavuot. Uh, which they had a confirmation service. Uh, there&#039 ; s actually a picture I could bring in, it&#039 ; s not part of the university, it&#039 ; s a picture of my sister and brother holding flowers for their confirmation service when they were little, but just those two kids, Jewish kids-- DONAHUE: We&#039 ; d love to see that. SHRABERG: I could bring that--yeah, it was in--that&#039 ; s about sixty years old. So it was part of that reform life. I&#039 ; ll bring that picture in of Lexington. Uh, I can&#039 ; t remember what--it was Shavuot, yeah. Shavuot&#039 ; s the spring holiday, and that&#039 ; s confirmation in the reform. So my sister went through a confirmation, but she never was bat mitzvahed, wasn&#039 ; t expected to, she didn&#039 ; t really learn Hebrew. She wasn&#039 ; t expected because she was a girl back then, and she was born in the, uh, the forties. DONAHUE: Did you--were the Jewish, um, rituals important to you? Did you enjoy them? Did you enjoy going to temple? What did it mean to you as a child--(Shraberg clears his throat)--and a young man? SHRABERG: Uh, I enjoyed going to temple. Uh, it was very difficult growing up--it&#039 ; s much more difficult growing up Jewish in rur--Lexington, Kentucky in the forties and the fifties than it is now. Uh, I grew up in a neighborhood in Chevy Chase, where, uh, there was one or two other Jewish families, uh, but going to elementary school, you know, uh, you really were forced to have a Jewish identity, you know, especially during Christmas. I always remember everybody&#039 ; s Santa Claus came but mine. &quot ; Why did I kill Jesus,&quot ; and I said, I have nothing to do with killing Jesus. I was asked this question when I was ten years old. (laughs). DONAHUE: Who asked you that? SHRABER: Kids. This was a different world. Political correctness was not--so several people said, &quot ; Why did you kill Jesus?&quot ; I remember when I was like ten or eleven, second and third grade. So I, I learned to be a fairly pugnacious person, got into a little few fights. But then I would have to say, my friends, uh, almost all my friends were gentiles that I ran with. Uh, and so growing up in Lexington, as far as rituals, yeah, I mean, you were forced to identify as a Jew, and you had to go through, uh, crises when you were a little kid. Santa Claus didn&#039 ; t come to your house, and originally I couldn&#039 ; t understand it. Originally I thought it was just because I was Jewish. Then I realized there was no Santa Claus, and it made it a lot easier for me. But, uh, you know, so I was forced to, uh--and I loved our temple, I must say. Our temple, uh, was on Ashland Avenue, it was an old building, it&#039 ; s over 100 years old now, and back then it had no air-conditioning, but it looked like a church. I think for a while it might&#039 ; ve been a Baptist church, I was told, so they had those big arching windows, and the windows were open, so--yeah, I enjoyed it. We had an organ and a choir, which was very reform-ish. Uh, so the rituals I enjoyed were going to--my father liked going to services. Uh, again, Lexington was more segregated, so Jews--much of the social outlet of adult Jews was going to temple, going to oneg, which is, you know, after-temple social on Fridays. My father very much loved to go to the temple, so we would have to go with him growing up, and the High Holidays. I, I had a love-hate relationship with the High Holidays because of the, uh, long, seemed so long to be in the temple. And you know, it&#039 ; s kind of interesting, uh, I very early realized perfect attendance wasn&#039 ; t important, because back then you did--had an unexcused absence for the High Holidays, so, you know, early in my life as a kid in elementary school, I realized I could never have perfect attendance. Nowadays, kids can get away with it because it&#039 ; s an excused holiday if you&#039 ; re Jewish. But I enjoyed the High Holidays. Probably my favorite holiday was, uh--and we had religious school on Sunday, but I loved, uh--Passover was always a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun, even at our house. Uh, for many years, Passover--I think for most Jewish kids in elementary school a--age, it&#039 ; s the most impressionable holiday, because it&#039 ; s such a happy holiday. And Hanukkah was fun too. Hanukkah was fun. DONAHUE: Did you have, uh--did you always have Passover at your parents&#039 ; house, or did you go elsewhere? SHRABERG: A couple of years, uh, we had to go to my, uh, uh, my grandmother&#039 ; s house on Kilmore Court, and, uh, I have this memory of all these old Jewish families lived on this little court right off--it was right across the street from what&#039 ; s now Rupp Arena. They tore all that down to make that parking lot, but there used to be two--a couple of little courts off High Street, they were circular, just cul-de-sacs. Kilmore Court had about six Jewish families there, incl--and they were all shtetl Jews. I mean, a lot of the Jews of Lexington actually originated from Lithuania, because like on my grandfather&#039 ; s part, they had an uncle or something, it&#039 ; s right out of Fiddler on the Roof, I have an uncle, or the man, uh, you know, the brother of the woman I&#039 ; m going to marry lives there, blah, blah, blah, so they all knew each other, some of them from the old country. So, uh, one or two Passovers I had to spend there with my parents. Once they left me there alone. I don&#039 ; t know if it was a punishment or what--they went to another one--and it went on forever. I mean, oh, I have memories of that. But after that, most of my life it was at our house on Cassidy Avenue, and it was really nice. You know, my dad had what I would consider a reasonable Seder, it wasn&#039 ; t too short but it certainly wasn&#039 ; t too long. And we had all our--my brother and sister, and always friends and a few relatives would pop in from different parts of the country. So it was a wonderful holiday. Yeah. I always have liked Passover, it&#039 ; s my favorite holiday--Hanukkah was nice when you were young, but Passover is one that sticks with you, I think, if you love holidays, as far as happy holidays, you know Judaism has so many, I want to say somber holidays too. (laughs). DONAHUE: Right, yeah. And, uh, so did you re--resent at all the--you mentioned a little while ago that--the, the frustration of being told by some of your peers, &quot ; Oh you--Why did you kill Jesus?&quot ; And did you--that you were one of the few Jews in a predominantly Christian culture. Did you resent that at all, or did you feel pride in your Jewish identity? SHRABERG: Well, that&#039 ; s where I think kids are so much lucky nowadays. I don&#039 ; t think there was the pride movement, I think you had to go through these crises. At first there was a sense of &quot ; What did I do wrong that Santa Claus didn&#039 ; t come to my house&quot ; , then &quot ; What do you mean I killed Jesus?&quot ; And uh, but, you know, kids, uh, pretty much say what their parents think, so I realized--so, when I was probably in second or third grade at Cassidy School, uh, several classes I was the only Jew in my class, you know, anti-Semitism, I became more aware of it. Uh, there were lots of elements--I was a pretty aware kid, so even though all my best friends were Jewish, uh, I know one of my best friends I grew up with was a Protestant family, a very old--old Lexington family that lived across the street, and his father--grandfather had been city manager and all this. Uh, he told me his mother complained a couple of times that we were best friends, because I was Jewish, you know. So there was a lot of--and they were members of Lexington country club, which didn&#039 ; t allow Jews back then or Idle Hour, it was known they would not allow Jews. So, you know, later on it became awkward, when I was in elementary school, uh, yeah, those sort of things. So how you react is either you&#039 ; re ashamed or you&#039 ; re, you know, defensive and pugnacious. So, you know, uh, I wasn&#039 ; t ashamed. Uh, sometimes there&#039 ; d be--if I was in a crowd of kids and they brought up an anti-Semitic remark, like &quot ; Jew you down&quot ; or talk about a Jew somehow, uh, I&#039 ; d have to say I&#039 ; m Jewish, because a lot of times they didn&#039 ; t know, you know. My mother was blond-haired and blue-eyed, she looked more like a Ukrainian than a Jewish--(laughs)--so she would catch that all the time, and, and she would--she was very pugnacious in Lexington if somebody made a comment about a Jew in front of her, &quot ; Oh, that&#039 ; s a Jew,&quot ; and she&#039 ; d say, &quot ; You know, I&#039 ; m Jewish,&quot ; and they&#039 ; d say, &quot ; Oh, I didn&#039 ; t know that, I&#039 ; m sorry.&quot ; But it was really a mix between being ashamed sometimes and trying to stand up for yourself. It was tough as a kid back then, like I said. I mean, you miss school and you--you know, the unexcused absences I always thought was unfair for the Jewish holidays. Uh, but I was very popular, I made a lot of friends, uh, in elementary school. You know, I can&#039 ; t say it was that bad. For example, my parents had one family in Lexington where we actually exchanged gifts for Christmas and Hanukkah together, who were Christians. So we--and then I had one of my best friends, my other best friend who wasn&#039 ; t the Protestant was a Catholic, because we lived on Cassidy Avenue two blocks from the old Christ the King Church, so there were Catholics, and he and I became best friends too, one of my two best friends when I was little, and every Christmas, their names were the Martins, they would have me over Christmas Eve at their house and I&#039 ; d spend the night, and then I&#039 ; d get a Christmas present in the morning. So that&#039 ; s the other side of American life. You would never have that in Europe, you know. There was that wonderful acceptance. And I loved Mr. Martin, he was such a great guy. He was a good man. Uh, he&#039 ; d have a beer or two and--you know, growing up as a little boy Jewish in Lexington was problematic. I&#039 ; ll tell you another funny story. I know we have to get to UK, but this is an honest to God story. For a period of time, our neighbors who moved in next door to us were Southern Baptists, and, uh, when they found out we were Jewish, they put--took a petition in the neighborhood to have us either thrown out of the neighborhood or convert. Can you believe that? This was--this would be about 1957. The neighbor on the other side was a lady named Mrs. Broth (??). Mrs. Broth, uh, was a widow. She hated Franklin Roosevelt, not because she was a Republican, but that her only son had died in World War II. She kept a beautiful garden. But God bless Mrs. Broth, when he brought the petition to her, and she was all piss and vinegar, apparently she told the guy, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to get your ----------(??) out of this neighborhood, you&#039 ; ve got to leave. You don&#039 ; t belong here.&quot ; So she had her high points. DONAHUE: Good for her. SHRABERG: Their names were the Kennedys, I remember, and they disappeared after a year or so, left the neighborhood. That&#039 ; s a true story. So being Jewish was kind of a different world back--that&#039 ; s a true story, because I remember my parents talking about it, and I said that&#039 ; s just--so there was that current of, growing up, but--day-to-day life was great, but you&#039 ; d have those moments. Uh, the Christmas play. This is something that people would identify with. I think I was in the second or third grade, every kid--one of those grades, we did the Christmas play that year at the elementary school, so we were all expected to take a part, even--I was Jewish, so I had to be--I think I was one of the three wise men in the Christmas play. I didn&#039 ; t mind, but looking back on it, you know, there was that pressure. And there was ----------(??) I said, well, maybe I want to be Christian, maybe being Christian would be so much nicer. You know, of course, looking back on it, that&#039 ; s naïve. So yeah, I mean, you really had to--you were forced to hold on to an identity, you had to. If not, you would be lost. But there were periods in which you were hurt or upset or like, why does it have to be that way, it seems sort of silly. But that&#039 ; s the way it was. DONAHUE: Did your parents or your brother and sister talk to you about--or support you, tell you kind of how to maintain your identity in the face of things like that, or did you--did you kind of keep it inside of yourself? SHRABERG: I pretty much kept it inside of myself. Uh, my brother was a musician, so, you know, he, uh, played classical piano, was in the state finals. He was very much into that, uh, and he basically tutored bar and bat mitzvahs. Uh, and my sister really pretty much--she was an assimilationist, she joined the sororities in high school and tried to sort of make believe. Even though she had a Jewish identity, she was less, not really Jewish-Jewish. So no, I mean, I just sort of, each one of us had to go our own way and find our own--how we fit in the community. Uh, I mean, we all knew we were Jewish, and there were always little family conflicts. I remember one Christmas, the three of us, I must&#039 ; ve been about ten then, we tried to sneak in a small Christmas bush, and my mother said no, can&#039 ; t have a Christmas bush. (laughs). DONAHUE: It&#039 ; s interesting, because someone else who was interviewed for this project described how his, you know, even though his family was very devoted to their Jewish identities, they did have a Christmas tree every year, and it was sort of just a concession to the predominant culture. SHRABERG: And I would give my mother credit for that. They really made a--they would not--they didn&#039 ; t--that was a line they would not close, they would not make a--we were not--we did not have seafood in the house, which is kind of silly, because when we went out to eat, my dad would order shrimp cocktail. But we were not--we had no pig products in the house. There were certain areas in which they would not--their generation would not cross the line. DONAHUE: Did they keep two sets of dishes? SHRABERG: No. They were very reform otherwise. It was kind of a funny--it was a funny sort of compromise. And you know, and it kind of gave me a better understanding of what I say is religion versus religiosity. Not that I have disrespect for people who do that, but, you know, they didn&#039 ; t have the two sets of dishes, uh, they really--you know, we would have--we had an African American maid, okay, or whatever you want to call it, that raised us, so we would have fried chicken, we would have beef with sauce on it. They weren&#039 ; t strict kosher at all, but certain things, like no pig products, no pork or bacon were ever allowed in the house, uh, no seafood, and no Christmas tree. (laughs). No Hanukkah lights in the front of the house back then. So they really did--you know, our house was dark for Christmas every year. So, you know, looking back on it--unfortunately my kids tend to bend those edges a little bit--I think it was important, because, you know, you don&#039 ; t want to--if you&#039 ; re going to have an identity, you have to maintain some--I think it&#039 ; s harder in our society ---------(??), because it was--there were so many other restrictions on being Jewish, that you sort of had to make some identity things, you know. You weren&#039 ; t allowed--well, for example, in Lexington growing up, they used to have cotillion. This goes back to the Jewish boy, Jewish girl. There was a shortage of boys of a certain socioeconomic class to be cotillion, so Jewish boys were often invited to be in cotillion, which is the fancy-schmancy dances they have. The girls weren&#039 ; t. Jewish girls were not, because they were Jewish -----------(??). So there were those messages that you are different, so, you know, in a way, why would we want to have a tree if they&#039 ; re not going to allow me to be, you know--and I was very early aware, I don&#039 ; t know, I&#039 ; ve always been sensitized by the Holocaust, I don&#039 ; t know why, that even if you convert, you know, what happened in Europe wasn&#039 ; t making any difference. So you had an ounce of Jewish blood in you, you could be exterminated, even if you were two or three generations Christian. So I very much was, you know, I guess I had a different approach to it. Not that I think that Jews are special, but I think that it takes a special person, maybe, to maintain the Jewish faith, especially in Lexington, Kentucky. It&#039 ; s a little harder than if you lived in New York or Chicago, somewhere you had a lot of Jews around. DONAHUE: Right. So how did you learn about the Holocaust? Because you wouldn&#039 ; t have been taught about it in school. SHRABERG: No. I don&#039 ; t know when I first became aware of it, but uh, I&#039 ; ve always been--that&#039 ; s always been a very--I don&#039 ; t know why, I&#039 ; ve always been sensitive, I think because--I was born in 1947, and my brother and sister were born in the early forties. My dad was exempted from service because he had a scrap metal yard, which was considered a vital business. His brother was in the service, he wasn&#039 ; t. And I think that for me, when I first became aware of it, somehow I was struck, and I must have been around bar mitzvah age, that there that--there would have been lots of kids my age who never were bar mitzvahed because they were killed. And I always felt that I had a certain responsibility. I was very sensitive about that, you know, if I had been born--if either set of my parents had not immigrated to this country, I would never have been bar mitzvahed, I&#039 ; d probably never have been alive. So I felt a kind of sadness that all the--that whole generation of, uh--and I also think that, you know, Jews worldwide, that that was almost a devastating knockout blow for the Jewish people. I mean, they lost one-third of their population, and probably the richest cultural fount. The United States Jewish community came from Eastern Europe, uh, and, you know, that was the cultural fount for this, the brilliance of, you know, the flowering of the American Jewish community, and it was just cut off by the head by the Holocaust. I don&#039 ; t think we&#039 ; ve recovered yet. I mean--so, going back, I don&#039 ; t know why I&#039 ; ve always--I&#039 ; m a psychiatrist, maybe that&#039 ; s it, it makes me sensitive to things like that, the, the devastation. But just, I&#039 ; ve always had that feeling, even--uh, I was bar mitzvahed at the temple when I was thirteen, and I celebrated my fifty-fifth anniversary by reading Torah again, the same Torah portion, and I remember saying how I still feel so lucky, blessed to be here, that I would have never been able to either if I&#039 ; d have just been born in a different place, a small village instead of Lexington. It could&#039 ; ve been somewhere like Vilna, Lithuania, I never would&#039 ; ve made my bar mitzvah. There&#039 ; s a lot of blessings being in America, you know. When I talk about these things, I always realize, you know, the type of anti-Semitism, not that it can create violen--there has been violence occasionally in the South, but nothing like what happened in Europe, or it never has been. Americans are much more, generally speaking, in my opinion, pleasant, good people. Ignorant like all--we&#039 ; re all ignorant of each other, but I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s anything like it would&#039 ; ve been in Europe, ever has been in this country. We&#039 ; re blessed by what we have here. DONAHUE: So where did you attend school, elementary and junior high and high school? SHRABERG: I grew up in one house on Cassidy Avenue, and I walked to Cassidy Elementary School, and that was grades kindergarten to sixth, and then Morton Junior High, and then I graduated Henry Clay. So uh, my father--so I was a third-generation--my, uh, grandfather--I&#039 ; m sorry, my father graduated Henry Clay and I graduated Henry Clay, so second-generation. So I went to the, back then, the classic three schools. Lexington was, again, a different town. You know, you had two major schools, Henry Clay and Lafayette, that was before Tates Creek, and, sadly, you had the African American schools, Dunbar and Douglass, so there was--I wasn&#039 ; t even aware of segregation growing up, and now I realize how much there was. So I went to the three--what were the--that was the classic--I didn&#039 ; t know how special it was at the time, but yeah, that was the three schools I went to. DONAHUE: So you weren&#039 ; t aware--you had an African American maid. Was she the only black person that you had any contact with? SHRABERG: Growing up, uh, yes, until high school. I remember one or two students. Norma Davis, I remember, or Norma Johnson, who was a social worker, and I think she&#039 ; s deceased, was one of the students there. But yeah, uh, Lexington was a very--it was segregated. People, yeah, I mean, there were no African Americans, certainly till I got to late years at Henry Clay, the last year or two. And just a few. It was very, very segregated. There was Dunbar and Douglass, and Henry Clay and Lafayette, and then later Bryant Station. Uh, it was--it was de facto segregation in the school system, yeah. Uh, and the movie theaters. Uh, the old Ben Ali theater, I tell these stories, was originally an opera house. It was a movie theater downtown, a really nice one, I wasn&#039 ; t even aware of it. We used to go in--there was a white entrance on Main Street to the first floor and the first balcony. There was a third balcony that had blacks only on, uh, Upper Street. So we used to sneak up to the third balcony to throw, you know, Red Devils on people. And that was the first time I realized there were all these African American people on the third balcony at that movie theater, because it was segregated. That was when I was probably ten or eleven. DONAHUE: --what did that make you think? SHRABERG: You know, sadly enough, I never really thought, uh--you know, my--we did not hear the N-word in our family, and of course being Jewish, we were very--it&#039 ; s such a paradox. We were very sensitive to discrimination, because we were discriminated against. Uh, but, uh, you know, I never really realized it till probably the civil rights movement, how segregated, and yet, you know, being Jewish--and I think that being Jewish was a double-edged sword, because obviously we were lumped--you know, the Klan, the Ku Klux Klan didn&#039 ; t like Catholics, Jews, or African Americans. We were all three--(laughs)--you know, not considered part of the club. Uh, so I--but I didn&#039 ; t realize, you know, certainly I had it far better off than African Americans did growing up in Lexington. And, uh, my father was a very, uh, fair man. I mean, he, he--like I said, he was not--we never heard the N-word. Jews used the term schwartze for African Americans. It&#039 ; s a Yiddish word, but, you know, some people would consider that a slang--unfair, derogatory term, but, uh, my father was a very fair--in his junkyard, there was one of his workers who was an African American that on his birthday got drunk, threw a lady out on the street, she died, he went to prison. Back then, that could&#039 ; ve been a death sentence, but he was--my father rehired him. He had to be rehired back then after a five-year stint to work, which kind of was being pretty gutsy back then in the sixties. So he was a very fair man, uh, but yeah, how did it make me feel? It&#039 ; s amazing how ignorant you can be of a lot of things if it doesn&#039 ; t affect you. Here I was, I was aware I wasn&#039 ; t allowed in the country clubs, I had friends who would take me to swim at Idle Hour or Lexington Country Club, and I would feel awkward because I knew the only reason--I would never--my family could never be a member there because we were Jewish, but I could come as their guest. I could go to cotillion, but Jewish girls couldn&#039 ; t dance at cotillion. But as far as that--they had a black entrance, an African American entrance to the movie theater, and that you never saw--I had no African American friends going to school, and I had an African American maid, we called them maids back then. Who I was very close with. I&#039 ; ve actually met--when she died I was--I went to see her many years ago, a number of years ago. No, I mean, it was a dichotomy, it&#039 ; s so unjust and yet yeah, you just didn&#039 ; t make the connection. And I think you probably didn&#039 ; t want to make the connection, because if you made the connection, you&#039 ; d have to stand up against it, like so many people did later on. So yeah, I mean, when it happened, I was all for it, but I have to say, I never was that vocal ----------(??), but I realized how ridiculous it really was, the whole thing. But as a kid, it&#039 ; s strange. I never, you know, I never was prejudiced in the sense that I said anything or felt prejudice, because I realized how much I was a victim of prejudice, I had that much insight. But as far as saying, whoa, this is wrong, no. I think a lot of Southern Jews particularly will tell you that. DONAHUE: Yeah, I think that&#039 ; s common. SHRABERG: And when you&#039 ; re a kid, you just don&#039 ; t even think it, you know? I never thought, well, wait a minute, there&#039 ; s, you know, ten or fifteen percent of Lexington&#039 ; s African American. Why aren&#039 ; t any of these kids in my school? But then I knew there was, uh, you know, the two high schools were all African American. We didn&#039 ; t have Hispanics back then, that was it. Lexington was just a--it was what I call a black dirt Southern town, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. And a drinking, you know, a gentleman&#039 ; s town, so to speak, you know. I would say a red dirt town is more Baptist and they don&#039 ; t drink, but this is more, you know Episcopalian and everybody drinks. Most of my friends were, you know, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, or Catholics, and they were all party--they liked to live, but, uh, none of my friends growing up were African American till I made one or two sort of acquaintances in high school, started to--but yeah, totally naïve, even as a Jew. Maybe it&#039 ; s partly me and the other Jews may say differently, but I was just not aware of it. DONAHUE: Um-hm. So you graduated in 1964, is that right? SHRABERG: I graduated Henry Clay in 1965. DONAHUE: Okay. And then you headed to UK that year. What made you decide to attend UK for college? SHRABERG: Frankly, just lazy. I was shiftless, I had no direction, uh, very un-Jewish, I guess. My brother went to University of Rochester, my sister went to Michigan. Uh, partly it was my Jewish mother, I was the youngest, she didn&#039 ; t want me to leave home. So I said, well, I&#039 ; ll just go to UK, which was kind of unusual. A lot of Jews in Lexington, usually they&#039 ; d go away to school, or if you weren&#039 ; t, well, I shouldn&#039 ; t say, smart, there was always Indiana, this is a big Jewish campus. Uh, I had like a 3.6 or 3.7 in high school, so I could&#039 ; ve gotten into a lot of colleges. I just didn&#039 ; t know what I wanted to do, so I said--and I was playing in a rock-and-roll band back then, too, by the way. So I stayed in Lexington with my band for about the first two years when I attended UK, so I just--it was actually kind of just like, okay, I got to go to college, let&#039 ; s go to UK. It was cheap. I think the first year my tuition was like $140 or something for a semester. (laughs). DONAHUE: That&#039 ; s changed, hasn&#039 ; t it? SHRABERG: Oh, God, it was cheap, and I had a car, and I could live at home. So I thought, this is just nice. I lived on Cassidy Avenue in Chevy Chase, it was a ten minute drive to campus, I could park on Columbia Avenue, no parking problems, walk on the campus. So I just started school and yeah, it was more default. I didn&#039 ; t want to work, so I figured I&#039 ; ll go to college, and my parents, like most immigrant families, neither one of my parents had more than a high school degree. They really, really emphasized you&#039 ; ve got to have a college degree, you&#039 ; ve got to go to college, so I figured, hey, not only do I got to go to college, then I don&#039 ; t have to work full time, so let&#039 ; s do it. (laughs). DONAHUE: Tell me about your band. SHRABERG: The band was called the Titans, and we were--there were two other big bands in Lexington, the Dorkays (??) and the, uh, Mag 7. I played keyboard, and, uh, we actually started in--uh, back then, that was the era of the big bands in the 1960s, so we played these, uh, pretty good gigs and all. We didn&#039 ; t have--we just didn&#039 ; t have the technology we have now for DJs and stuff, so we had all these instruments, they were not digital, had a huge Hammond organ, two keyboard, big instruments. It was a big band, and we were very--we had an agent. Uh, we actually had to join the musicians union, the AFL-CIO, when I was sixteen, and we played, uh, cotillions, we played, uh, some proms, we played fraternity parties, and we did all over the state, played for Pikeville high school prom two years in a row, uh, and did a lot of fraternity parties here, Thursdays and Fridays at UK. That&#039 ; s when I first had exposure to UK fraternities and saw the good and the bad. (laughs). And we made pretty good money. Back then it was, I think we made fifteen dollars a person, which would be more like--you&#039 ; re talking the 1960s, so you&#039 ; re really talking almost 100 dollars a person. I made enough money to not only buy my organ and tone cabinet, which cost about 1,800 dollars, but to, uh, fund my first trip to Europe back in--when I went there in &#039 ; 68 when I was a student. It was a lot of fun and it taught me--I loved music, so, uh, it was fun. So we were called the Magnificent Titans. Cold war, the Titan was one of the first intercontinental ballistic missiles, so our card--this is how weird it was, it had a card, it had a missile going up saying &quot ; Soaring to new heights in music.&quot ; (laughs). It was a nuclear ballistic missile. But the Titan was one of the original ICBMs [intercontinental ballistic missiles] in the United States arsenal, so we were the Titans. So, uh, yeah, so that was another reason I stayed here, because one or two members of the band--it was about an eight-person band. Actually, our sax player was Jewish too. We had one sax who grew up around the block from me. He was the only other--one of the two Jewish friends I had. So yeah, we went--I played two years while I was UK in the band too. DONAHUE: So you said you played organ, and what was the second thing? SHRABERG: Keyboard. Electric piano and organ, yeah. DONAHUE: What did you study at UK? SHRABERG: Well, I can tell you my first year at UK--I was an undeclared major the first two years. I had no idea what--I think I was very immature. I was a good student, but I had no idea what I wanted to do. I absolutely loved college. I loved--high school to me was very--I&#039 ; m kind of a hyperactive guy anyway, and it was so regimented, you know, I mean. I was one of the kids--me and a couple of other guys would take off in the sixth hour, you know. We were not the best behaved type. So I loved college, because you could go to class, and then when you didn&#039 ; t have to go to class, you didn&#039 ; t have to go to study hall, you could just wander around. So I was undecided the first two years. I wish I still had the hat. The class of &#039 ; 69, the class that entered in 1965, was the last class that had to wear the UK beanie. I don&#039 ; t know if anybody ever told you about that. DONAHUE: No. SHRABERG: We were all issued a beanie, a round beanie with a top, and it said &quot ; &#039 ; 69&quot ; on it. It was from the old tradition of the hazing of freshmen. That was still part of that old tradition, and then they disappeared. We got a new president, I can&#039 ; t remember the one that came, and said, enough of that silliness, you know. So if I had that, that would be priceless. It was a beanie that said &quot ; &#039 ; 69,&quot ; we all were supposed to have to wear on campus, you know, like freshmen. I think the sixties were coming, so some people said, this is stupid, we&#039 ; re not going to do it. But we were issued a beanie. Uh, and the campus was very, you know, a beautiful campus back then. A lot of the old buildings are still here. This was just before they broke ground for the office tower. The big skyscraper dorms weren&#039 ; t there. So it was a lovely--it was sort of the last phase of the old agricultural, mechanical, liberal arts college, you know. It was going through that rapid transition of the sixties that everywhere. So my first year or two, I sort of--I loved arts and science, but I kind of started taking science courses because I was good at it, and so--and during that period of time, there was--there were more Jews from out of state than in state in the school. There maybe were three or four Jews that were actually from Lexington, and the rest of them were from out--there were a lot of Jews who came from the Northeast. That&#039 ; s where I met--I was kind of the yokel, you know? I met Jews from New York and New Jersey, because a lot of them still, a lot of people from there, not only Jewish, come to UK because the tuition is friendly and they like UK. So, uh, the first two years were just, I played in the band, I went to school, I lived at home, uh, kept some of my same friends. And, uh, I had, I think it was in the second year that I decided that maybe I should be more social, so I decided to join a fraternity, and that&#039 ; s when I really became more aware of all the anti-Semitism that was still on the campus. Uh, just my experience was--there was one Jewish fraternity, ZBT, which is still around. Uh, the ZBT that year that I pledged, uh, had just taken over what was the old Sigma Nu house, it may still be there, off Rose Street, I can&#039 ; t remember whether it&#039 ; s Rose and--Columbia and Rose Street there. They had been, I think, expelled for a few years for some violation party, so the house was leased to ZBT at that time. So I pledged--when I went on the fraternity pledge, I became acutely aware of the rampant racism and anti-Semitism in the fraternity system at that time. This would be probably &#039 ; 67. You know, there was no question that Jews were not welcome, certainly African Americans--I don&#039 ; t think I saw an African American in the pledge bus. There were one or two little fraternities, maybe Lambda Chi, I think, were maybe interested in having a token Jew. And of course ZBT welcomed me with--they wanted the Jews. And, uh, so I thought, ah, you know, I&#039 ; ll go ahead and become a Zebe, so I pledged and was a member of ZBT for about a year before I quit. (laughs). That&#039 ; s another--I just--I thought that--I understand being Jewish, you want to be part of the fraternity system, but then I think sometimes imitation&#039 ; s not necessarily flattery. I was not really impressed with fraternities at all. I just thought, you know, to me, and I know they do good work, but to me it was all hypocrisy. It was just a way for a bunch of boys and girls to get together, possibly breed, uh, with the same class, party a lot, and then use the excuse that you&#039 ; re doing good deeds, you know, blah blah blah, the Greek model, you know, we&#039 ; re going to be like the Greeks of ancient Greece, noble, which is silliness, it&#039 ; s a travesty. The ancient Greeks would laugh at it. And I just, after a year I was one of the--I had to go through the process of resigning from ZBT, which its hard to get out of a fraternity, it&#039 ; s almost as hard as leaving the Mob, but I was able to get out after a year. It just didn&#039 ; t work for me. And I really thought they were trying to imitate the gentiles at their own game, and it&#039 ; s silly. So I made my own set of friends. You&#039 ; re asking how I ended up becoming a doctor. I don&#039 ; t know what it&#039 ; s like here now, but the first two years you could be undecided, then you had to declare. And, uh, I will tell you one interesting thing about Jewish life at UK. Uh, our fra--the ZBT fraternity, most of the Jews were from New York and New Jersey. They were nice guys. The president was a gentile, an Italian guy named Joe something, DiMasso or something, great guy. And that&#039 ; s the first time I learned something about human behavior. It&#039 ; s like, you see this so often in societies where you get a group of people of the same religion or the same faith together, to have a leader you&#039 ; d better get somebody outside the faith. (laughs). Because he really was able to--all these guys, you know, would be arguing, and Joe was like a really good president, so it was kind of funny. That&#039 ; s where, you know, we had an Italian Catholic president for a Jewish fraternity. It&#039 ; s funny. But anyway, uh, my main social life when I was at UK, being Jewish, was--when I declared premed in my third year, I met more Jewish people. And Lexington became much more Jewish at that point, uh, because the medical center opened up in the early sixties, and that brought in a lot of Jewish--I don&#039 ; t recall one Jewish faculty member. I don&#039 ; t believe we had, back in the sixties, a Jewish studies--I don&#039 ; t know if they taught even Hebrew here. I knew Hebrew from my bar mitzvah. But once the university came, we had this influx of a number of Jewish professors and physicians-- DONAHUE: --once the medical center came. SHRABERG: The medical center, yeah. We had a group of guys who were--eight of us, and we would always go to lunch at different places. There was a hamburger place right here on the corner of Columbia and Rose, used to be called the Columbia restaurant, and we&#039 ; d go there every day and have burgers after class. I mean, I must&#039 ; ve eaten a billion cheeseburgers and fries. And, uh, there was one other Jewish guy in there, Arthur Jacobs, who was from Lexington, who became a physician and lives in St. Louis. The rest of them were non-Jews. And they were from all over the state, from Paducah and eastern Kentucky. And we were a little club together, because we all did premed. And there was real camaraderie. I mean, we would make jokes occasionally about each one&#039 ; s religion, but it was all just fun stuff, and there was a real acceptance because we all had the same goals of being physicians. And, uh, we ate a lot of different places. We sometimes would go up to the UK Lair, the K Lair, back then they would allow students to eat there with the athletes, not like it was nowadays, it&#039 ; s different. And same thing, so that was really my social outlet, all our premed guys, we became real good friends, and then when we got to be drinking age, we&#039 ; d all, on the weekends, go to drink at the various, uh, bars here around campus, some of them--most of the ones I drank at are gone, except the Two Keys, I guess that&#039 ; s still here. All the rest have been torn down. DONAHUE: So, let me just backtrack a little bit and ask you about the fraternity experience when you were--did you try to join any other fraternities besides ZBT? What was the--how did you become aware of the anti-Semitism in the fraternities? SHRABERG: It was very obvious when we were on the rushing. There were certain little comments and certain ways you were treated, uh, uh, that you knew that they weren&#039 ; t interested in you once they found out your name or found out you were Jewish. DONAHUE: Can you remember specific examples? SHRABERG: Uh, well, I remember the opposite example. I think at the Zebe house when I was there, there was one guy, who was obviously not Jewish, who said, &quot ; Well, these are bunch of Jews, you don&#039 ; t want to rush this place.&quot ; I remember hearing that, which I found kind of the opposite. Uh, it was just known, it was just known. Which is kind of funny, because one of my dearest friends in the premed group, and we later went to medical school together, uh, was from Winchester, and later on, when we were medical students at Vanderbilt, he told me, &quot ; Yeah, you know, we were told not to rush any Jews.&quot ; Because we were friends by then. Yeah, he was a Delt, Delta Tau Delta, Delt, throughout UK, but he wouldn&#039 ; t say anything about it then. But then when we got to medical school, you know, you grow up into a bigger world. It was just--you knew it, you know. I can tell you that being Jewish growing up in Lexington, if you went to, uh, like I said, a country club, you knew you weren&#039 ; t--you might be welcome as a friend of a member&#039 ; s son, but you wouldn&#039 ; t be welcome as a member of your family. You learned to read that, it&#039 ; s just an intuitive thing. You know, I think that, uh, retrospectively, when people say African Americans are paranoid, they&#039 ; re not paranoid. They learn very early, it&#039 ; s amazing how sensitive, you have any sensitivity, you know when you&#039 ; re not wanted. I knew at cotillion that I could dance, you know, what did they call those, the little dance things where you pick, you know, the no-break thing, you could do your no-break card and dance with all these girls, but you were not going to date those girls, because they were from gentile families and didn&#039 ; t want a Jew--so you knew all that, you knew the lines, it was a whole-- DONAHUE: So many unspoken rules. SHRABERG: Unspoken rules, and just very subtle. I&#039 ; m sure it was not just the South. I&#039 ; m sure it&#039 ; s--but it was very obvious in a smaller community like Lexington. No Jews in the country club, no Jews in this or that, no Jews in any fraternity, uh, except ZBT. There were one or two that may--there was one other fraternity, maybe Lambda Chi expressed an interest in me, but it was like I was going to be their token. DONAHUE: So ZBT, from what I understand, was starting to experience, by then, a decline in membership? SHRABERG: Yes. DONAHUE: And did you have a sense that other people, other of the fraternity brothers, were experiencing what you were experiencing with just not feeling like there was a lot of meaning in it? SHRABERG: Not a lot of meaning. I think the only place the Jewish fraternities thrive are on campuses where you have a fairly substantial Jewish population, where they feel like they can fit in. Here it was kind of like, okay, we&#039 ; re the default--we&#039 ; ve joined this fraternity because no one else wants us, and we&#039 ; re kind of gonna--we&#039 ; re gonna play like the gentile boys, like we&#039 ; re fraternity boys. But yet, you know, we&#039 ; re not going to be able to be involved in any of the major events that these fraternities get involved in. So I think that really kind of put a damper on it. It probably succeeds--I know my brother-in-law was a Sammy, that&#039 ; s another Jewish fraternity. He went to Indiana, though, which has a huge--he&#039 ; s from Louisville, he&#039 ; s a Louisville Jew, and, uh, they have a huge Jewish student body, so I think they can blend in if they want to be fraternities. I--I&#039 ; m not a big fan of fraternities, but that&#039 ; s just my opinion. But I--maybe it&#039 ; s a rationalization. But even after I joined them, I thought, well, this is silly, you know. Uh, the main reason I joined was, uh, dating Jewish girls, which were at a premium at the UK campus too. Couldn&#039 ; t find Jewish girls. DONAHUE: Were you willing to date non-Jewish girls at all, or were you only interested in dating Jewish girls at the time? SHRABERG: Well, that was an interesting--when I was at UK, I was still under the sense that I needed, if I was going to be serious, I should date--I did date some non-Jewish girls in high school, because there weren&#039 ; t any Jewish girls. Growing up in Lexington with a small Jewish community of girls, you know, we did garage dances, we went to religious school, we went to youth group stuff, so that it would be like serious dating would be like dating your sister or your cousin. It was just--it was such a--so I did date a few non-Jewish girls, but--(coughs)--it was just high school dating. By the time I got to UK, I was still under the idea that, uh, you know, you only date Jewish girls, and one of the only--that was the other reason I joined ZBT, because they kind of had a way of bringing Jewish girls in for dating, so you could date some Jewish girls. Uh, I didn&#039 ; t get out of that till I got to medical school, then I sort of was able to, uh--my wife&#039 ; s a converted Jew, so--she was Roman Catholic originally, so obviously got away from that. I was the first in my generation to marry a non-Jew. My sister married a Jewish boy. So I did break the mold. But yeah, in college, I think, uh, almost everybody was--some of the fraternity guys would date non-Jewish girls, but I think the idea of a serious relationship, possibly marriage, Jewish. And there were not a lot of Jewish coeds at UK, not many at all. DONAHUE: About how many? Do you have a sense? SHRABERG: I think a lot less than the men. Again, it goes back to this Jewish ideal. It&#039 ; s okay to send the boys to a school which is majority gentile, they can date, but, you know, they&#039 ; re not going to marry, but you don&#039 ; t want to send your girls. God forbid they fall in love and they want to marry a non-Jewish boy. So we didn&#039 ; t have a lot of Jewish girls here. I dated a girl for a year or two from, uh, Louisville, but there were not that many. It was much more disproportionately guys from other states, particularly the Northeast, than girls. DONAHUE: Um-hm. So you mentioned--you very kindly sent me a bio that you&#039 ; d written about your years in UK, which was very helpful in preparing for our conversation-- SHRABERG: Top of my head, yeah. DONAHUE: Yeah, and one of the things that you mentioned in that bio was that it was the first time--well, that going to UK made you feel not more Jewish, necessarily, and not more like a native Lexingtonian, but it was the first time you really came to think of yourself as a Kentuckian. Can you describe more about what you mean about that? SHRABERG: Yes, I mean, having lived my whole life in Lexington in the same little neighborhood, I thought of myself as just a Lexington Jew, or Jewish Lexingtonian. I didn&#039 ; t even use the term Lexingtonian. But coming to UK, I really--you live an insular existence, and this was before really mass media and roads, so my friends I made from all parts of Kentucky, and I--and I will say the basketball games, for example, which I did go to, really helped, and back then you could get into it. I sort of became aware that Kentucky is a state. You know, I think it was very local. I really didn&#039 ; t identify myself as a Kentuckian before I went to UK. I think that&#039 ; s a really powerful message the university should give their--I think they do, especially the flagship like UK. I really, uh, I loved all my professors. Some--a lot of them were not native Kentuckians, but I did really feel part of a--yeah, a Kentuckian. I identified, even with all those aspects, that it really made me feel kind of proud and identified, and I got to know people, uh, who were from different parts of the state, not just here. And I guess that&#039 ; s because I was very insular, I just grew up in a small town. So yes, uh, I really saw myself as a Kentuckian, and, uh, had a lot of pride in that. I think it was such a special--small little special state in our history, and I was much more aware of it at UK, and it made me really kind of proud. I got to know the campus. It was a small enough campus back then that you could walk the whole campus in half an hour, everywhere from the agricultural building, and then of course when the medical center came, we were really proud. Louisville was the only medical school, so this really gave us pride, I think. But yeah, uh, I probably identify myself more as a Kentuckian now than as a Lexingtonian or as a Jew, that I--the positive values of Kentucky and our history. We&#039 ; re still kind of the heartbeat of the nation, you know, we&#039 ; re a very special place. Small. People have--and, uh, as I got older, I resented the caricatures of Kentucky, that we&#039 ; re stupid backward people. I mean, you know, we&#039 ; re very tolerant people on certain levels, and decent people, good people. So yeah, I think UK did give me that wonderful--I spent fifteen years--four years in Nashville in medical school, about fifteen years in Louisiana, and yet I always felt that I was a Kentuckian, which is kind of odd being Jewish, because most Jews -----------(??) New Yorker or Miami, but I see myself as, I guess, a Jewish Kentuckian. (laughs). DONAHUE: Right. So did part of that awareness of yourself as a Kentuckian come from meeting Jews from other states while you were at UK-- SHRABERG: --yeah, yes-- DONAHUE: --and understanding that their experiences were very different than your own? SHRABERG: Very different. Yeah, I was a provincial Jew. Yeah, very, very different. I was not that acutely aware of it, although I would visit my relatives--I remember going to visit my relatives in New York--(laughs)--this is a true story. My aunt who went to UK married a New York boy, and she moved to New York, so we would go up there, in the city, and I remember getting on elevators when I was like twelve or thirteen, and they&#039 ; d say, where&#039 ; s he from, because they&#039 ; d hear my accent. I wasn&#039 ; t aware I even had one. And they&#039 ; d say, Kentucky. And they&#039 ; d always look at my feet. (laughs). True, in New York, people would say, Oh my, no shoes. Yeah-- DONAHUE: They would just assume that because you were from Kentucky, you wouldn&#039 ; t have shoes. SHRABERG: No shoes, yeah. Because they&#039 ; d get these newsreels, you know, back then the Great Society and stuff, you&#039 ; d see Kentuckians without, you know--but, uh, yes, I&#039 ; d say that meeting Jewish people from particularly the Northeast, I realized I was an oddball in a way. Very unusual--and I kind of had a little pride in being different. But, see--you know, I think that was piggybacked on the--that I was already, thought I was different from the moment I started growing up, because I was always different, you know, being, you know--I think that Jews, like being--there are so many Jewish psychiatrists partly because if you&#039 ; re a sensitive child, you already start to look from the outside in, because you realize you&#039 ; re slightly different than everyone else. So you start analyzing behaviors. So it just compounded it, realizing, gosh, not only am I weird because I grew up in a neighborhood where everybody was white and Christian, but now I&#039 ; m Jewish and apparently there are not a lot of--there&#039 ; s these huge communities that look at the world differently, identify differently, had different experiences than I did. I mean, a lot of these guys were members of their country clubs and all that, you know. It&#039 ; s a whole different world. So yeah. DONAHUE: And was that part of your motivation for studying medicine that early on? Were you interested in psychiatry, or what motivated you to declare that as a major-- SHRABERG: Well, I was interested in philosophy at UK, that was my minor. I loved philosophy. And God bless him, Dr. Pisacano was his name, was one of the doctors who came down here. He was a--when I had to decide my major, I met the history guy, I thought history would be good. The history guy was not--professor was not very motivated. But Pisacano was this Italian guy, Oh, you should be a doctor, you need to be a doctor. So I said okay. So, uh, I was interested in history and philosophy, so I kind of gravitated toward psychiatry, because partly I&#039 ; m interested in just history and behavior, uh, and actually I did a double residency in neurology and psychiatry, because I was interested in how the brain mediates behavior. But I&#039 ; ve always--yeah, I mean, going back to it, yes, I think part of my interest in human behavior is that I kind of lived in a society where I had to early on analyze behaviors, or at least it was interesting to look at behaviors and see-- DONAHUE: Yeah, that&#039 ; s interesting. SHRABERG: Yeah, I mean, uh, as a child I remember my best--one of my two best childhood friends, as I said earlier, telling me, maybe I was eight or nine years old, you know, My mother is really upset that, uh, we&#039 ; re best friends, because you&#039 ; re Jewish. You know, he wasn&#039 ; t trying to be hurtful, but yeah, that was kind of strong medicine, and I took an instant disliking to her. Uh, later on she became like my biggest fan. DONAHUE: Really? SHRABERG: Yeah. Uh, uh, the funny story she tells about me, I was this sort of kid that, uh--he lived down the street, we were born the same year and actually grew up together from the ages of zero till when he died a year ago at sixty-eight. But we lived in the same neighborhood, went to the same schools together. And, uh, I think he was nine or ten years old, we had a big fight and I beat him up real bad and chased him into his house. Then his mother came on the porch of the house and she said, &quot ; Get off our property.&quot ; So I was standing on the sidewalk, and I said--her name was Mrs. King--I said, &quot ; Mrs. King, this is city property, I can stay here as long as I want.&quot ; She looked at me, said, &quot ; Hmm,&quot ; went back in the house. And Johnny, my best friend, said, &quot ; My mom after that said you were the smartest boy she&#039 ; d ever met.&quot ; (both laugh). So, you know, it&#039 ; s funny how relationships--even though I know she was a dye-in-the-wool anti-Semite, she was also loving, you know. Every Christmas she would have me over--this is kind of a funny Jewish story. We&#039 ; d never had ham in our house, so after about the age of eleven, every Christmas she would invite me over, and they had this country ham, so she&#039 ; d have--first time I ever had ham and beaten biscuits, would be she&#039 ; d always serve me on those little biscuits at Christmas time, which I always looked forward to. There&#039 ; s so many paradoxes in life, you know. So the same woman who was concerned that her only son was best friends with a Jew. DONAHUE: Right. Life is full of mysteries, that&#039 ; s for sure. (both laugh). Oh, can you remember, while I&#039 ; m thinking of it, by any chance how to spell Pisacano&#039 ; s name? SHRABERG: P-i-s--he has family that are attorneys in town now. One of them is at UK, I think, related, but P-i-s-c-a-c-a-n-o, Piscacano. Still in the phone book. He&#039 ; s deceased, but he was quite a--he was a real inspiring guy for me. A lot of the, uh, premed students back in the, uh, sixties, uh, had a wonderful interaction with him. He was a great recruiter for medicine. It&#039 ; s funny, the, I know there&#039 ; s this idea that everybody wants to be a doctor, but it&#039 ; s hard to get people to be doctors in this country. They&#039 ; re just like, I don&#039 ; t want to spend all that time in medical school. DONAHUE: A lot of time, a lot of money, yeah. SHRABERG: Yeah. You don&#039 ; t see the money, just the time-- DONAHUE: I mean a lot of money out. SHRABERG: Yeah, a lot of money and time. Although again, it wasn&#039 ; t that expensive. God, the world we lived in. I think the tuition at UK--I was accepted at UK medical school my third year, but I went another year with the undergraduates because I was having a good time. But the tuition, I think, would&#039 ; ve been 440 dollars a semester, uh, at UK medical school. Very cheap back then. DONAHUE: Did you continue to attend services at the temple throughout your time at UK? SHRABERG: Yes, I would go to High Holidays. (clears throat). I wouldn&#039 ; t go to Shabbat as much as I should&#039 ; ve, but I attended the High Holidays, did the Passover. I never got actively engaged in Hillel--I think they had a presence here even then--partly because I was a Lexington Jew, and partly because I would, I would say that I was kind of a--that&#039 ; s a disadvantage of being, uh--living at home through college, you tend to stick in your home rather than get involved in Jewish activities. But I did attend the temple, certain services. Not as much as probably I should&#039 ; ve, but what Jew doesn&#039 ; t say that? DONAHUE: Did you--were there peers your age still at the temple who you would socialize with? SHRABERG: I would say that I was a very--other than Arthur Jacobs, who attended, uh, and Michael Canarac (??)--there were about three or four Jewish kids that stayed here or went to Transylvania--almost all the Jewish kids of Lexington went to out-of-state schools. Because, I think partly to get out of--to expand your horizons, but also to be around larger campuses with larger numbers of Jews, so Indiana, St. Louis was a popular place, schools in New York. A lot of them were encouraged to go there, you know, if they could get in, the big-time schools like Harvard, Princeton, they would go. Partly that, but partly to be around larger Jewish and metropolitan communities. I think there was--so there were very few of us from Lexington that really attended UK. DONAHUE: Uh, you also mentioned in the bio that you sent the political upheaval of the time. And, uh, what impact did that have on you? The Vietnam War, you mentioned the Six-Day War? SHRABERG: Well, it&#039 ; s funny. The Six-Day War, I think it ended maybe the first or second year, I can&#039 ; t remember if it was &#039 ; 66-- DONAHUE: --I think it was &#039 ; 67. SHRABERG: Yeah, &#039 ; 67. You know, I never realized--that was a real, uh, existential moment for me, because I think, uh--that when I first became aware of Zionism, uh, and became certainly to some extent a Zionist. Jewish pride, you know. It&#039 ; s kind of sad, because it was a war, but it was really--and I do think that, uh, as I said, uh--(clears throat)--for a lot of Jews in the sixties, there was still this leftover from the Holocaust, where, you know, we were just victims, sheep to go to slaughter. We didn&#039 ; t stand up for ourselves. There was all this mythology. So for a lot of younger Jews there was a sense of pride, Jews fight back, you know, we&#039 ; re not going to let people step on us again. So I remember, and this library, it was kind of funny, the Margaret King library here, I would read all the magazines--we didn&#039 ; t have digital--any Newsweek and Time, everything about Israel and the war. It was just like, it was like, almost like a drug for me, I loved it. It just gave me pride. I could identify with African Americans and other minorities who need figures to take pride in, you know, even if it&#039 ; s a military or a bellicose, pugnacious person. So that made a real--real, uh, it helped me, it really gave me a good deal of just pride in my people, so to speak. And the other thing is, all my gentile friends suddenly started talking about, &quot ; Hey, the Israelis.&quot ; Not Jews, the Israelis. But in my mind they were equivalent. It was kind of funny. It wasn&#039 ; t like, &quot ; You Jews can fight back&quot ; . It was, &quot ; Those Israelis are tough.&quot ; So there was kind of a dichotomy, you know. I think they saw them not as Jews but as Israelis. But in my mind, they were they same, so it made me feel good. Uh, because a lot of my friends would say that who weren&#039 ; t Jewish. That was a very exciting period of my life as far as identity, being at UK and learning about that and just feeling proud, you know, and hearing people talk about Israel, which to me was like talking about Jews, which it isn&#039 ; t, but in my mind it was. The civil rights thing was, uh, towards the end of my, uh, last year here, uh, and, and the campus really started to come alive. And I&#039 ; d say that that was the only time in my life that I really felt, during those couple of years, that I was part of a historical event, you know. I always say there&#039 ; s news and there&#039 ; s history. And the funny part about it is, you don&#039 ; t think you&#039 ; re living history, but I can remember when there were, uh, buses of police coming on campus and, you know, really bullying of students and first amendment rights being kind of threatened, uh, and the campus was going through this huge change. Uh, I don&#039 ; t think we were ready for diversity yet, but we were on the edge of some of these concepts. So, and that&#039 ; s when I became much more aware of what Lexington had been like from the vantage point we were talking about earlier, as well as UK. You didn&#039 ; t--this campus was not diverse, I think. I mean, when I was a student here, I mean, you know, being Jewish was diversity. I mean, there were some Asians, but you didn&#039 ; t see anything like the United Nations we have here now. DONAHUE: Yeah, the--UK was integrated pretty, pretty late. I don&#039 ; t remember the year. SHRABERG: Yeah, and when I was here in the sixties, it was starting, but really, uh, there was not--uh, there was--I don&#039 ; t--there may have been an occasional African American in one of my classes. It was a small campus, but I don&#039 ; t remember--(clears throat)--yeah, this was very much a very, very white campus. And, uh, like I said, being Jewish, you fit in only if they didn&#039 ; t know you were Jewish. (laughs). I was considered a white man only because--but it was, uh, yeah, I became aware in the late sixties--when I graduated UK, I started Vanderbilt medical school in &#039 ; 69, but I loved philosophy. For two summers I worked towards a master&#039 ; s in philosophy, so I was on campus both those years. And, I was like my dissertation and six credit hours short, but I quit that for another reason. So I was on campus, and then my brother went to law school here in the early seventies--(clears throat)--so I was very much aware, from being on campus then, of dramatic change, oh, dramatic change. Uh, it was all across the country. When I started medical school--(clears throat)--in &#039 ; 69 at Vanderbilt, you had to wear a tie to class, and the students, by the third year, said no more ties, it&#039 ; s stupid, you know, this sort of idea. But this was old-school stuff. There were no blacks in my class at Vanderbilt and no women, in &#039 ; 69. There were seven Jews, we were the quota, I think. Seven out of sixy-nine, it&#039 ; s ten percent. That&#039 ; s why Jews --------(??) it&#039 ; s the opposite of African Americans. They exclude us. But to make a long story short, yes, when I was on campus my last year there were changes afoot. You know, you went from starting UK with a beanie to leaving UK, people were in beards, people were smoking pot. I didn&#039 ; t. Uh, and it was just a whole--you still had all the good old boys stuff and the fraternities and all that, but it was really, really you could--there was a seismic shift just starting, just starting. But it was there, and, uh, looking back on it, I was part of history. That&#039 ; s the only time in my life so far that I actually feel I was part of a historical event. I was--I was at one or two of the demonstrations, I was part of the crowd. I wasn&#039 ; t yelling, I was just there, en masse, supportive. But it was fun. Then I saw all these cops, you know, they come in these big blue buses on campus, because they were afraid of a riot. DONAHUE: Was this related to the Vietnam War, or? SHRABERG: The Vietnam War, yeah, exactly. What--what fascinates me about that is, I felt all the cops coming on campus, inciend--it was more incendiary. I think it led to more violence. There wasn&#039 ; t really a lot of violence, but it led to people being upset and angry. It&#039 ; s like telling a child that&#039 ; s in control, you can&#039 ; t control yourself, we&#039 ; re going to bring a bunch of police around you. So I, I really sensed what it&#039 ; s like, it&#039 ; s such a delicate balance, I know--but it was a part of history, yeah, Vietnam, uh, was part of that. My, you know--my brother had been, uh, Vietnam-era, uh, he had been drafted in the Army out of college, so I knew--he was lucky not to go to Vietnam, but I know that, uh, we were very lucky. He ended up in Germany, but I can tell you that I felt so sorry for people who did go, you know, because everybody that went not necessarily didn&#039 ; t want to go, but it was a terrible war, what happened to our boys, I mean. And then they were treated like dirt when they got back. It&#039 ; s a sad period in our history, and I realized we were part of a historical process. But the civil rights all melded together then, too. The civil rights was coming in too, which was really an interesting part. Yeah, it was--on this campus, it did--but it was late at UK, I say, very late, and really peaceful. I mean, compared to a lot of--we didn&#039 ; t have a Kent State, thank God. DONAHUE: Right, yeah. Uh, you mentioned that you took a trip to Europe during your undergraduate years, and you connected with your extended family. Can you talk about how making those connections with your extended family overseas, uh, impacted your own Jewish identity? SHRABERG: Yes, I think it made me realize, uh, the most important thing was that being Jewish is kind of interesting, is that you can go anywhere in the world where there&#039 ; s a temple or a synagogue, you can walk in and kind of feel at home, you can belong, it&#039 ; s that unusual--yes, I think that, uh, that gave me a sense of a greater sense of self, a big part of a network--you know, we Jews unfortunately, because of the Holocaust, so many of us, you know, our history only goes back to the United States, you know, when everyone emigrated here. But at least from this family we&#039 ; ve got some roots. It made me feel very--uh, yeah, it made me feel, I guess, more connected in a sort of world, globally. And, u, it was very special in the sixties and seventies, because we didn&#039 ; t have the Internet and all that, so, you know, the connection was really much personal. Yeah, I really got interested to some extent in my family and, uh, how we ended up here. That&#039 ; s what I said, how in the world did we end up in Kentucky? Family in London, I can understand, but yeah, these provincial Jews. (laughs). It was very--it was fun, I enjoyed that very much, and I still stay in touch with some of my relatives, uh, and, uh, there&#039 ; s a website for the Schraberg side, that&#039 ; s the one I stay in touch with, interesting my father&#039 ; s side. It was very much of an eye-opener, yeah. DONAHUE: Was that trip, uh, initiated on your own, or did you go with your brother or sister? SHRABERG: Well, my brother had been drafted into the Army when he graduated college. So he was in the Army between &#039 ; 65 and &#039 ; 67, and he was in Berlin, stationed in Berlin, and they--he was given an option, a lot of the guys back then, you could either be discharged in Europe and spend a month and they&#039 ; ll fly you back, or you can fly home. So that summer of &#039 ; 68, my last year of college, I--the money I&#039 ; d saved from the band, I flew Pan Am to Berlin, my brother rented a car, and we traveled through Europe together. So we drove--that was during the Cold War, so we drove--we actually went through Checkpoint Charlie in East Berlin, and we drove through East Germany, and then through France and all this. Funny, you talk about history, we were going to go to Czechoslovakia, but that was during the Czech Spring and right before were going to make that trip, the Communists marched in. So I really got to see a totalitarian state, too, and I also got a better understanding of what it must&#039 ; ve been like to be in Nazi Germany, because at that time in Berlin was split, and we went to the east side of Berlin--and my brother spoke fluent German--uh, nobody smiled. It was amazing, nobody smiled. We walked in East Berlin, people were smiling. It was--to see the difference in what it&#039 ; s like-- DONAHUE: --in West Berlin people were smiling? SHRABERG: Yes. Because it was not--I wouldn&#039 ; t say capitalist, just a free society. So we went to England, with my brother, and that was my first trip, uh, near the end of the trip and visited the Seymours, which was the Jewish branch that the twin brother--that was the oldest daughter. And then we actually went and visited a couple of relatives, the one from Scotland. And, uh, I made another trip a few years later and visited some family. One of the grandsons would be a great--a cousin once or twice removed, lived in Wales. We went to Cardiff and visited him. So it was kind of fun to see the branches, there&#039 ; s something really neat about that, when you think you&#039 ; re connected by these roots going back to Lithuania. So I&#039 ; ve always found that really interesting. Like most adults, you don&#039 ; t keep as much touch with those people, but if one of them were to call me and say, can we come visit you, I&#039 ; d be, come on down, stay with us, I would love to hear and see what they&#039 ; re all about. So I&#039 ; ve been very lucky with the jet age, you know, to extend--I always think how different life was, you know--we think of immigration as such, in a way an easy thing, you get on a plane and come over here. I mean, it&#039 ; s tough, I know, but once you get a visa, you just fly. Those people, the people who settled this country and up to the 20th century, getting over here was no easy task. You&#039 ; d go all through these countries, there wasn&#039 ; t any European Union. My, my grandfather David, the one that immigrated to Kentucky, was this Lithuanian Jew who apparently rolled the rails up in eastern Kentucky, and they didn&#039 ; t have hotels there, so families, they&#039 ; d never seen a Jew before. The stories he told my dad were, they&#039 ; d put him up, you know, he was buying ginseng, so they put him up for the night because they wanted the children to see what a Jew--they&#039 ; d never seen a Jew. And according to, uh, uh, my dad and my uncle said, I&#039 ; m sure you&#039 ; ve heard this before, the kids would feel his head to see if there were any horns coming out. That&#039 ; s fascinating. But, I can&#039 ; t imagine the courage of somebody, a little old Jewish Lithuanian guy with broken English, you know, going up into places like Pike County and Floyd County, negotiating about ginseng, I don&#039 ; t know how they were able to--and then riding the trains back to Somerset, how he did it. But he did it. It&#039 ; s a piece of Kentucky history. And that makes me proud, again, I said it, I see myself as a Kentuckian kind of first, because my family, now we&#039 ; re 100 years in the state, and actually through marriage I go back a couple hundred years. My wife&#039 ; s family settled--uh, the mother of my children settled, they were colonial--Revolutionary War soldiers who&#039 ; d actually settled in the Elizabethtown area. So, uh, in fact, my--it&#039 ; s funny, my son, named Zachary, he&#039 ; s named after a guy named Zachariah Riney, who has a little plaque outside Rineyville, who was Abraham Lincoln&#039 ; s, uh, first teacher in elementary school. So I can say that through marriage, I&#039 ; m kind of really a Kentucky guy, a Kentuckian. University of Kentucky really did that for me, I would say. It gave me an identity as a Kentuckian that I didn&#039 ; t have before. And even though all the Jewish experiences made it kind of--it was mixed. Overall, as I said in my--it was a very positive experience, really. I felt--never had a problem with a professor, that&#039 ; s for sure. I loved all my professors there, even the tough ones. I mean, there was never a mention of being Jewish, being different. DONAHUE: So the only anti-Semitism you experienced at UK was with the fraternities, or were there other experiences besides that? SHRABERG: I would say that it was primarily the fraternity system at that time was very rigid and old-fashioned. I think that was the major thing on this campus. I think the remainder of the campus was very giving and open. My, uh, sixth-grade teacher at Cassidy went on and got her PhD in English, and she nominated me for Phi Beta Kappa, so, you know, there was no prejudice there, and she wasn&#039 ; t Jewish, Mrs. Peeble, God rest her soul. So I became Phi Beta Kappa in--uh, that was the only fraternity I always say I was proud to be a member of, April 1969. So, uh, I would say that I experienced nothing from the vantage point of faculty. Uh, and really, in the student body I would say it was only in that area, and I think that&#039 ; s probably changed a lot over the--I don&#039 ; t know how much has changed--and I think that was really a reflection of some of the undercurrents of our society back then. I mean, most of the kids in the fraternity were kind of the ruling class, so to speak, and so it was probably--I think it&#039 ; s much different now. I&#039 ; m sure there&#039 ; s probably still some of that. I think at this point, and wha--very refreshing, is even back then, but certainly as the sixties progressed, a lot of the best and the brightest students who could&#039 ; ve been members of fraternities said, who cares? I don&#039 ; t want to be part of that, it&#039 ; s silliness. There were more important issues, as they say nowadays. I think the beginning, but now I think it&#039 ; s very true, I don&#039 ; t begrudge people being members of fraternities at all, it&#039 ; s fine. But I think a lot of kids that would be fraternity or sorority people were interested in maybe more important things. (laughs). It&#039 ; s okay to play, I guess. I&#039 ; m not putting them down too much. But that was probably the major area, and it kind of reflected back to growing up, some of the things, country clubs and other things which you were, you know--well, there&#039 ; s the Lexington Club, for example, it&#039 ; s a club here in Lexington for millionaires. It&#039 ; s the city club, didn&#039 ; t have Jews, only WASPs [White Anglo-Saxon Protestants], no Catholics. But now they&#039 ; ll take a Jew if they want to pay the membership, I think, or--I hate to say that, I know we&#039 ; re on the record, but you know, all these things are falling apart to some extent. Still some remnants, probably, but certainly not anything--our society--just walk on this campus, it&#039 ; s so different than it was. DONAHUE: Do you want to take a five-minute break? Let&#039 ; s just take a short break, then we can-- [unrelated material, not transcribed] DONAHUE: I did want to loop back and ask a follow-up question about the--your parents&#039 ; business. Did they--what happened to the business, and did they have any hopes that you or your brother would take it over? SHRABERG: Well, I think that, uh, no, I think we were sort of a typical, I wouldn&#039 ; t say just Jewish, but maybe Jewish immigrant family. I think, uh, my mother was very much into higher education, and I guess we were the typical Jewish family. My sister became a--got her degree in social work and teaching, my brother became a lawyer, and I&#039 ; m the doctor. You know, maybe if we had another kid, another boy, he would&#039 ; ve been the junkman. Uh, I think my father would not have objected to my taking over the business, but, uh, he worked in that business till the day he died. He worked till seventy-seven, and actually went to services on Friday night, uh, had a heart attack and died on Sunday, at seventy-seven. So he died with his boots on. But had sold a major portion of the business by that time to the--uh, sold out. I think that my father was not disappointed that I didn&#039 ; t go into the business by virtue of I went into medicine, you know. So I think he would&#039 ; ve been okay with it. I, uh--my father had a photographic memory about those parts, and I don&#039 ; t think I could&#039 ; ve ever been as successful as he was. (laughs). He knew every part of every car. Back then, before you had computerized parts, you had to know the difference between a carburetor in, say, a 1985 Pontiac and a 1983 Pontiac, and I, I couldn&#039 ; t do that. That&#039 ; s how he made his money, he knew exactly--and he had fourteen acres of cars, where he knew where each one was. So he sold the business, and several people thought about buying it, and he, uh, he had one little yard on Manchester Street where he started that he continued to sell parts, basically to, uh, people who were trying to customize cars, till he died. And he died with his boots on. DONAHUE: What was the name of his business? SHRABERG: Kentucky Scrap Material Company was its name. He was in business, uh, he worked, I think, for sixty years. He started working in--well, he worked at the age of sixteen, he died at seventy-seven, so he worked, uh, sixty-one years. DONAHUE: And I know that the Baker family business still exists. SHRABERG: Baker Metals, we&#039 ; re good friends actually. This is a small town, Lexington. Uh, my wife and I are good friends with Ben and Ruth Baker, who Ben is the one that ran Harold&#039 ; s business, and they were very successful. And the funny part about it, it&#039 ; s kind of a joke that Ben married a, a girl named Ruth Gordon, and Gordon Metals were another big business, they sold a lot of structural steel, a lot of which is in some of the buildings here at UK. (laughs). So we&#039 ; re actually very dear friends, we travel to Europe a lot, my wife and I, with Ben Baker, who&#039 ; s one of the Bakers, and I went to actually Sunday school and, uh, with Mike Baker, who was my age, so we both were confirmed together and bar mitzvahed a week apart. DONAHUE: Okay. Yeah, I know we&#039 ; re hoping to interview Ben for this project as well. SHRABERG: Ben Baker can give you a lot of, uh, of history of Lexington. He&#039 ; s got an encyclopedic mind, and what you&#039 ; ll found out is by marriage or otherwise, we all are kind of related. Somehow or another, my grandmother, who was a Munich, uh, is related to all the Munichs that are sort of related to some of the Bakers. So just--not through marriage--in a small town like this, it&#039 ; s incredible, just interconnections, but it&#039 ; s funny. As a matter of fact, there&#039 ; s a prize every year, I think it&#039 ; s either Max or Ed Munich, they gave at UK medical school, a speech, as part of the Munich family that is, being that my grandmother was a Munich that married my grandfather from the old country, we&#039 ; re all interrelated. (laughs). You&#039 ; ll enjoy Ben, he&#039 ; s encyclopedic. DONAHUE: Okay, great, thank you. Let&#039 ; s see, so you talked a little bit about why you chose to specialize in neurology and psychol--psychiatry, sorry, and that was interesting. Is there anything else you wanted to add to that? SHRABERG: Well, it&#039 ; s kind of, it&#039 ; s ironic that I&#039 ; m now half-time the assistant professor of psychiatry over at UK Chandler, where I&#039 ; m, uh, training residents. I do the consult service there. So I&#039 ; ve come home to roost at the university, so I&#039 ; m back here. I kind of find that--it&#039 ; s wonderful for me. I spent fifteen years in New Orleans, where I did my training and practice, private practice, so I&#039 ; m kind of part of the university community and it makes me feel really good. DONAHUE: Yeah, what made you decide to return to Lexington after those years in Louisiana? SHRABERG: You know, it&#039 ; s interesting. Uh, Lexington is one of those cities that gets under your skin. I think I always longed to come back here. Uh, when I finished my residency in neurology and psychiatry in &#039 ; 78, I came back and spent a year with the faculty here, and then I had an offer to go back to Tulane and be in the department there, uh, as an assistant professor of psychiatry and neurology. I spent a couple of years there, uh, and then I, uh, for about eight or nine years, private practiced in New Orleans. (clears throat). And then I really started to miss Kentucky, and also the school system down there was bad, and you have these fantasies that home is just the way it always is, so I wanted my kids to try to grow up in, uh, Lexington and try to have some experiences I did. So I returned here in &#039 ; 87, when I was forty, and, uh, you know, I think part of it was romantic, part of it it&#039 ; s I wanted them to have the Kentucky roots. So, uh, that&#039 ; s why--I have five kids, only one of them lives in Kentucky. The others live either in New Orleans or California. But what can you do? DONAHUE: So even though you had had challenges as a child growing up in Lexington, there was something about it that you wanted your kids to experience? Or did you feel like maybe it had changed? SHRABERG: It had changed, I think. Yes, it had changed, and even with those experiences, it just, you know, I think that, uh--maybe I&#039 ; m being romantic, but where you grow up is--becomes part of your blood, you know, you&#039 ; re part of the soil, the water, it&#039 ; s part of your spirit. I always felt that, uh, about Lexington and about Kentucky, so--and, uh, it&#039 ; s--I can&#039 ; t say that on some levels maybe, you know, you always say what if, what if I&#039 ; d have gone to, say, medical school in New York or Chicago and married somebody from the big city, I could&#039 ; ve been a big-city Jew instead of a little shtetl Jew, a provincial Jew. (laughs). But I am what I am, and you know, I&#039 ; ve traveled, I&#039 ; ve done a lot of traveling with the Bakers, they do a lot of traveling all over the world. And, uh, I like to think of myself--I love history and philosophy. But I&#039 ; m still very comfortable with just being in Kentucky. Yeah, I just, uh, it&#039 ; s part of me, maybe more than a lot of people. I just feel part of this, this is part of me, with its bad and its ugly. It&#039 ; s got its good, too, like every--there&#039 ; s no perfect home, I don&#039 ; t think. Everyplace has its problems, and for all the things that we&#039 ; re talking about now that I felt growing up, I overall loved my childhood, I loved my life here. I&#039 ; m grateful to some extent that it made me so insightful and sensitive to things. I think it made me a better psychiatrist. I can not only empathize with what people feel, but I can know, you know, how maybe to deal with it. And you know, my wife always says, you know, you had--compared to what a lot of people went through, you had a nice childhood, an easy childhood, and that&#039 ; s probably true. You know, I mean, you know, I never really, you know, for the few tears and hurts that I went through, it&#039 ; s my personality, I&#039 ; m overall, like you just asked the question, yeah, I&#039 ; m very happy to be here and, you know, I expect to die here. (laughs). Like my dad, I&#039 ; m going to work and die in my boots, that&#039 ; s my goal. I&#039 ; ve got my plot at the Lexington Cemetery with the rest of the Shrabergs. (Donahue coughs). Not any time soon. DONAHUE: Yes, touch wood. So what is your wife&#039 ; s name, and how did you meet her? SHRABERG: Well, that&#039 ; s a little bit of a story. My first wife--I&#039 ; ve had two wives. Both of them were Catholics, I don&#039 ; t know what it is about Catholic girls. My first wife, who is the mother of my five children, I met in New Orleans, and we were married, uh, fifteen years. My second wife I met here after we were divorced. We&#039 ; ve known each other twenty years, been married, uh, nineteen years, and her name is Pat, Patricia McCreary, uh, Shraberg, and this is kind of an interesting piece of Lexington trivia. My father never was part of the temple. He was on one committee that counted votes, but he never wanted to be an officer of the temple. Uh, I was president of our temple for two years, and my wife is finishing her presidency now, for two years, so we&#039 ; re the first, uh, husband-and-wife pair that have been presidents of the temple. Of course they didn&#039 ; t have any female president of the temple the first fifty years. So I&#039 ; m kind of proud of her. So we&#039 ; re both--we&#039 ; re a blended family. We have eight kids between us. DONAHUE: Wow, okay. So you have five children of your own, and are they from your first wife, or your second-- SHRABERG: --yes. DONAHUE: And how did you and your first wife approach your children&#039 ; s Jewish education? SHRABERG: Well, my first wife converted to Judaism. Uh, she went through the mikvah in New Orleans, you know, the ritual bath, and so all five of my kids were raised Jewish. Which I think I--you know, she--and my second wife, uh is, uh--she--her first--her children are kind of multidenominational, but, uh she actually sent them for a while, while they were growing up, to temple. She was more of a--she calls herself a recovering Catholic. (laughs). She sent her kids to Unitarian and also temple. So even before we met, she kind of was more Jewish than I was, and like a lot of converts, she&#039 ; s much more involved in temple life. She&#039 ; s been a wonderful president. She&#039 ; s quite a leader in the Jewish community, I think. And so--uh, so all five of my children are Jewish, and my three stepchildren, uh, have been--know the temple, they&#039 ; re kind of nondenominational, like a lot of kids are now. So there&#039 ; s really been no conflict, and she&#039 ; s--we would go to temple together, she&#039 ; s the president right now, has been for two years, so she&#039 ; s as Jewish as you can be. DONAHUE: Can you trace any kind of generational differences in your approaches to Judaism from your parents to you to your children? SHRABERG: Oh yes. It&#039 ; s so dramatically different. This comes with a core of growing up, maybe in America, but certainly in Lexington. For my parents, temple life and their social life were identical. Uh, they would go to, uh, parties with their Jewish friends, temple--all social activities, ball games, Jews were all together. It was very much of a social outlet. Uh, you know, Lexington didn&#039 ; t have any Jewish country clubs till Tates Creek originally was the country club that accepted Jews. So all the Jews belonged to Tates Creek who could afford to. So I would say that growing up, uh, for them, being Jewish was as much of a social as a religious life. DONAHUE: Did they belong to the Tates Creek Country Club? SHRABERG: Yeah, my dad was a golfer, and that&#039 ; s where I learned to play, my passion for golf. That was my father-son stuff. Yes, they were members of Tates Creek when it was a country club. It was kind of funny, Tates Creek Country Club, the pro there for our whole life was a guy named Humzey Yessin, God bless him, he was a really great guy, who was, I think, a Palestinian Christian. He was the pro, and he had all these Jewish members. They all got--it&#039 ; s only in America, and his kids are all great, old Humzey was a lovely man, a great guy. Uh, when he retired, he was an avid fisherman--uh, Ben Baker can tell you about that relationship--so he used to go fishing on Warren Rosenthal&#039 ; s, I don&#039 ; t know if you know Warren, he has a farm out at Patchen Wilkes, a farm--he always let--the only person that could fish in his lake was Humzey So, you know, that&#039 ; s the wonderful, growing up, a lot of social networking between the Jews. By the time, uh, I grew up, things were changing, although, uh, growing up as Jewish, most of the times that I went to, uh--we used to have what were called garage dances in the summer. It was always at the Jewish girls&#039 ; houses. But, you know, I would go to cotillion, where there were mainly Christian girls. In high school I was friends with Christians. Uh, and even though there was still that subtle tendency that you were different and you weren&#039 ; t allowed in certain venues, you were allowed more than they were. And being of a religion was very important, your identity: you&#039 ; re Jewish, you&#039 ; re Baptist, you&#039 ; re Episcopalian. By the time my kids grew up, it seems--well, you know, none of my kids have actually married in the faith. It&#039 ; s kind of sad--well, I shouldn&#039 ; t say sad, I love all my in-laws. Uh, some of the kids aren&#039 ; t being raised Jewish, and what are you going to do? They&#039 ; re not raised anything, the ones in California seem to just not, you know, right now, at least. I have two young--one grandchild, one on the way. They&#039 ; re not really thinking of religion, and that&#039 ; s this generation. So it&#039 ; s a whole different world, and I don&#039 ; t think they even think of themselves so much as a religious identity anymore, a lot of them. And of course as a parent, you always feel guilty, what did I--did I not strongly--but our society&#039 ; s changed so much. I mean, religion is not--your religion identity is not so important, I guess. So yeah, over three generations--and that&#039 ; s why, you know, so much of our membership, young people don&#039 ; t have a tendency to join the temple or the synagogue in even Lexington, because their social outlets are everywhere now, you&#039 ; re not excluded from anything. So yeah, it&#039 ; s changed dramatically. I can say living in Lexington, from my parents who would--normally, if they go out to dinner, they&#039 ; d all be Jewish friends. My dad had a gin rummy club. Uh, one of the--I think maybe one of the players was gentile, the rest were all Jews. Golf foursomes, almost always Jewish. Later on there were some--and he had gentile friends, but most of the socialization, you were with your own co-religious. Changed a lot in my generation, and now it&#039 ; s just totally different. So over three generations, it&#039 ; s just dramatic, and with that, the involvement in the temple and the synagogue has dropped in membership, partly because of that, I think. If you moved to Lexington in the 1950s, uh, if you wanted to have a social life, you joined the temple or synagogue. Now you don&#039 ; t have to. DONAHUE: Did all of your children attend the temple as often as you had growing up? SHRABERG: Yes. All three, all my children, I&#039 ; m proud to say, were bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed, my two daughters were bat mitzvahed, and bar mitzvahed. They all know Hebrew. And they have a Jewish awareness, but, uh, none of them so far have been--gotten engaged or joined a temple or synagogue. Which is--and I&#039 ; m a bit--I feel awkward about it, particularly since I was president for two years and my wife, but, you know, you can&#039 ; t force your kids, unfortunately, to do anything. I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; m alone, either as a Jew or as an American, about that, though. I mean, for all these huge mega-churches that have all these families members, I think the vast majority of Americans kind of just--it&#039 ; s laissez faire, comme-ci, comme-ca, what religion, what do I do with that. DONAHUE: What are your children&#039 ; s names and ages? SHRABERG: Well, my--the oldest is Zachary, Zachary Nathaniel. He&#039 ; s the one that was named after Zachariah Riney. Uh, then the next one is, uh, uh, Joshua, uh, Mansell (??) Shraberg. So--and then the third one is, I had twins, so ones Aaron Hiam (??)--Hiam is named after my father--uh, Shraberg. Uh, my father was still alive when he was named, and of course the Ashkenazi tradition, Jewish tradition, is you don&#039 ; t name a child after a living parent, but we went ahead and called him Hiam. And then his sister, who&#039 ; s a twin, is Mary, uh--Elizabeth Mary, who&#039 ; s named after my aunt Mary. And then my youngest one is, uh, uh, Sarah, uh, Leah Shraberg. Sarah Rose, I&#039 ; m sorry, Sarah Rose. And Sarah Rose, my grand--she was named after my deceased grandmother Sarah Munich Shraberg, and my other grandmother&#039 ; s name was Rose. So Sarah Rose. We liked Sarah Leah, but everybody--we knew her whole life people would say, Oh, you&#039 ; re the--you know, Sarah Lee. So they all have names that are part--some of the names are actually named after my wife&#039 ; s family, which weren&#039 ; t Jewish, but Zachary, of course, is an Old Testament name anyway, so we can get away with that one. DONAHUE: And how--how would you approach holidays with your children as they were growing up? Did you have similar traditions to what you had in your home as a child? SHRABERG: Yes, we had, we had all the major holidays. We did Pesach, or Passover, at home. We took them to the High Holidays. They were all bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed. So we gave them a strong Jewish life, and they identified as Jewish. They all learned Hebrew. Uh, so, you know, they have all the fundamentals if they want to be, but, you know, our society is so assimilationist now. You know, there was an old saying that, uh, the anti-Semite is the enemy of the Jew, and anti-Semitism is the friend of the Jewish people, because it&#039 ; s like me, you&#039 ; re forced to have an identity if you&#039 ; re discriminated against, but now there&#039 ; s so little, you know, they don&#039 ; t feel it, at least, so they--all my children have married--I would say they&#039 ; re non-Jews, because they don&#039 ; t have any faith, none of them, they&#039 ; re just, you know, their mates are all nothing. But I will say they all got married by rabbis, so--and they all supposedly are going to raise the children Jewish, they say, but so far nothing&#039 ; s really happened in that area. DONAHUE: And as an adult, uh, member of the Jewish community here in Lexington and your experiences being president of the temple, what kind of observations or insights have you developed about the nature of the Jewish community here? SHRABERG: Well, uh, I think the Jewish community in Lexington, uh, had been vibrant growing up. I see it dying out in the small towns. Uh, I think only the future will say if we&#039 ; ll have a Jewish community here in 100 years. You know, like I said, looking--and maybe I&#039 ; m just saying what people have said forever, but one-third of the Jewish people were exterminated, and there&#039 ; s so much intermarriage, so much less participation in the temple, you really wonder will there be any Jewish presence much in Lexington in 100 years. And then maybe, you know, what&#039 ; s the future of the Jewish people worldwide, I don&#039 ; t know, without Israel, and even, you know, that may be it. I just don&#039 ; t know. I mean, certainly the large urban areas--you know, the Jews are such a funny group of people, because I&#039 ; m always amazed, I mean, we represent less than one-tenth of 1 percent of the population yet we&#039 ; re told how powerful we are, how rich we are. My God, I mean, you know, you could walk across the land here and you&#039 ; d never meet a Jew if you don&#039 ; t try. But I do see just a--I&#039 ; m worried about our future, uh, more than--I think certainly in this--in the United States, I think there&#039 ; s a gradual--in sheer numbers, in participation. It&#039 ; s true in all the mainstream religions, but the Jews were starting with such a small population, there&#039 ; s six million Jews in a country of 340 million people, and with all our kids growing up and so many of them not engaging in Jewish life, you really wonder what&#039 ; s going to be--what&#039 ; s going to--I worry. In a community like Lexington, you really worry. Probably the biggest gift that Lexington has had was UK, because we bring in a lot of Jewish faculty, which helps kind of replenish our stock. If we didn&#039 ; t have UK, I don&#039 ; t know what would happen. I know both the temple and the synagogue, a lot of our members are UK faculty, you know, from the medical school and the campus. Without that, I don&#039 ; t know. We would definitely--our numbers are dropping, there&#039 ; s no question. DONAHUE: As president of the temple, what was your focus or your goal? SHRABERG: Building the temple, trying to build our membership, bring in the young people. It&#039 ; s a constant, constant struggle. Uh, you know, my wife is a little younger than I am, I won&#039 ; t tell you her age, she&#039 ; s in her sixties. You walk into the, uh, temple service, most of the people there are in their fifties or sixties or older. You look at the executives, you know, the presidents and the boards, they&#039 ; re all older people. You know, they try to get the young people engaged, and that goes back to the point that you can go out and have a great time, you can go to social events, you can be members of clubs, do everything you want, you don&#039 ; t have--being Jewish means nothing anymore. So that&#039 ; s part of it, but then it&#039 ; s partly just a lack of passion and interest that so many of these young people have, or time. So it&#039 ; s an ongoing struggle. Uh, right now in Lexington, I can tell you that there&#039 ; s even a--trying to merge the temple and synagogue into one building for cost and sort of have the congregations maybe, the religious schools merge because the numbers are so small of the children. There&#039 ; s all these attempts to do this, because the sheer numbers, you know, and there&#039 ; s more power in mass numbers, and we have such small numbers. Theoretically, I think there&#039 ; s 500 families in Lexington, but that&#039 ; s very much a misleading figure. Every family is just one member, and a lot of families are people in their sixties, seventies, and eighties, widows or widowers or couples. We&#039 ; re not talking about vibrant families of, you know, nuclear families. So probably if you look at that group, there&#039 ; s maybe 100, 200 families left. [unrelated material, not transcribed] DONAHUE: Okay, so you said that your children--none of them live in Lexington now? SHRABERG: I have one daughter that lives in Lexington, she&#039 ; s married, and, uh, they have no children yet, so yes, so that&#039 ; s really nice, a blessing. And then I have two stepchildren that live near us, one in Richmond and one in, uh, uh Frankfort. So I have--and I consider them like my children too. DONAHUE: Do you have grandchildren? SHRABERG: Yes, I have, uh, one granddaughter in, uh, California. This is so funny. You know, we used--I&#039 ; m a David, which means beloved in Hebrew, and, you know, Jewish names are now, again, the assimilation--her name is Harper, which is hardly a Jewish name. And, uh, she&#039 ; s got a boy, knock on wood, this week she&#039 ; ll have a C-section and a son&#039 ; s being born, so they&#039 ; ll have a son, who&#039 ; s going to be called Fletcher, which is not a Jewish name, but hey, we&#039 ; ll love Fletcher. And then I have a daughter in New Orleans, who is Claire, she&#039 ; s twelve. So I have three grandchildren, and my wife has, uh, three as well. And theirs, uh--they&#039 ; re all, uh, Cara, Justin, and Nick. DONAHUE: So you mentioned earlier about, uh, how--about Zionism and Israel and how that became important to you when you were in college, and it sounds like Zionism is still important to you. SHRABERG: Yes, it&#039 ; s very important to me. I&#039 ; m probably, uh, more on the extreme of Zionism, although certainly I do have a great deal of understanding and sympathy for the Palestinian people. I think they have a right to have a country. Uh, I think my Zionism springs from sort of a reaction to the Holocaust and that I feel it&#039 ; s so important that Jews stand up for themselves. And that is a great driver of tearing apart a lot of the Jewish communities even in Lexington, because, uh, Jews are very much people of the book and of justice, so there&#039 ; s a lot of mixed feelings about how Zionistic you can be. And maybe because I grew up in a small town, where I felt more akin to both anti-Semitism and the need for Jewish pride, that I&#039 ; m as Zionist as I am. Uh, I will say that I certainly understand the other side. One of the wonderful things that I&#039 ; m enjoying working at UK now is many of my resident students are from all over the world, from Pakistan, Afghanistan, you know, and I get a rich feeling of humanity, that they&#039 ; re all human beings, that we&#039 ; re all basically a byproduct of--if we can learn to think for ourselves. But I am, you know, I&#039 ; m still very much a Zionist, I very much feel like the Jewish people need one safe place. And I suppose that&#039 ; s just me, it&#039 ; s a derivative of my childhood that I feel that, you know--I guess, you know, I think it&#039 ; s--I mean, you might call it a trauma, but it would&#039 ; ve been nice to grow up somewhere where being Jewish means that every holiday is a national holiday, and you can join any club you want, at least your religion&#039 ; s not going to exclude you. I mean, people are so petty, probably there are some issues of pedigree, but being Jewish per se wouldn&#039 ; t do it. So I think maybe it&#039 ; s nice to have one place in the world where you can be Jewish and be a majority and you don&#039 ; t have to worry about all these little things that happened when I was growing up. The counter-argument is, the world can change, people can change, but after the Holocaust and what happened, maybe it&#039 ; s my generation--I&#039 ; m the last, you know, generation who was kind of born after World War II when all this happened. I don&#039 ; t know what the future is, but yeah, it did shape my Zionism, which is probably a little stronger than somebody with my education would be. But I&#039 ; m not intolerant, and I understand the other side of the argument. But I am very much, I really feel strongly that there should be a Jewish state. Not Israel as much as a Jewish state, which happens to be Israel. DONAHUE: And you mentioned that there&#039 ; s been some contention within the Jewish community in Lexington about that. Can you describe how that&#039 ; s--give some examples of how that&#039 ; s been expressed? SHRABERG: Yeah. We&#039 ; ve had different rabbis. The, the orthodox movement tends to steer away so much from political issues to mostly more holiness issues. The reform movement is much more into social justice and repairing the world. So you see where repairing the world means that there are bad things happening in Israel, positions of Israel that are not justice, that they&#039 ; re going to criticize. So most of the reform rabbis are much less Zionist and more into human rights and human justice. So you can see where there&#039 ; s some conflict. Now, for example, in our temple, a number of our Jews came from Morocco, Persia, or Iran, where they experienced terrible things, and so they tend to be angry, or more, uh, passion, if the rabbi tends to dumb down--for example, uh, when they had that, uh, the last little upsurge of that belligerence they had in the Middle East, the Gaza war, when, if you remember, the three Jewish boys were killed first, and then the Jews burned up this poor Arab kid in Jerusalem. Well, a rabbi said, it&#039 ; s terrible what happened to the Jewish boys, but it&#039 ; s terrible what happened to the Arab boy. Well, some of these people, Jewish members from the Middle East, may agree with that, but then they say, I think the rabbi is leaning too much towards the Arab side, not enough towards the Jewish side. So there&#039 ; s this divide, and, and, you know, some of our members are Israel right or wrong, a lot of our members are rights more important than Israel than anything else, we have to be right, we have to be just. So there is this line, and reform rabbis tend to be, uh, much less Zionist and much more into tikkun olam, as it&#039 ; s called, or repair the world, and that Israel has to respect human rights, and when they&#039 ; re wrong we should condemn them. Now, every rabbi will, but you can see where there&#039 ; s sort of how much you&#039 ; re pro Israel versus not depends on each member and their experiences. The members who came from the Middle East and had terrible experiences maybe tend to be a little less, uh, enthused about this even-handedness that most of the reform rabbis do. The orthodox rabbis are not so much into Zionism, they&#039 ; re more into the religion and keeping the rituals pure. It&#039 ; s more the reform movement that you get into these, you might say there&#039 ; s a little bit of a tension there, uh, and the rabbis tend to be more on the issue of what one would say human rights and fairness, versus the members may have their own opinions, some of which are far more to the right, you might say. It varies from person to person. So there is that tension in the reform community. DONAHUE: So often at one of the social gatherings after the service, would people be discussing these issues? SHRABERG: Well, the people that are--the political issues tend to be very carefully orchestrated. For example, we just went through Yom Ha&#039 ; azmaut, uh, this Sunday at our temple, and both congregations get together, it&#039 ; s Israeli Independence Day. Uh, it&#039 ; ll be very superficial, there will not be political discussions--(laughs)--because there is a great divide, uh, you know, and I think that&#039 ; s one of--you know, Jews in America are Americans first, so as Americans people have all different positions and there&#039 ; s no, you know, it&#039 ; s a nice part of what we as Jews are, we&#039 ; re varied (??), so there&#039 ; s, you know, nobody&#039 ; s going to send out a group of, you know, bullies to beat you up if you say, I think Israel is wrong, or a group of bullies to say I think Israel right or wrong. But, uh, there is a tendency for people to sort of cluster together who may be very, very pro-Israel right or wrong, versus the ones who are kind of anti-Israel, and the rabbi is sort of kept out of it. The rabbi stays out of the politics pretty much, because if he does, he&#039 ; s going to--one side or the other is going to be unhappy with him. That&#039 ; s my opinion. Now, somebody might disagree with me, but I think you&#039 ; re going to find that most Jews are going to say that, that there&#039 ; s a--the Jewish--Israel has changed a lot in the mind of American Jews since--I think generally we all support Israel, that the Jews need a homeland and a state, but we also, uh, Jews more and more want to see the world in peace, they don&#039 ; t want to see, you know--right now it&#039 ; s not such a big issue, because so much happening in the Middle East has little to do with Israel, but Israel is still there. They have to part of the whole community, the world community. DONAHUE: Right. What&#039 ; s your experience been of the relationships between the members of Ohavay Zion and Temple Adath Israel? SHRABERG: It&#039 ; s still interesting. Uh, there&#039 ; s always been--some of it&#039 ; s human nature, some of it&#039 ; s cultural. The typical small Southern town where you had the German Jews come earlier, and they looked down on the other Jews. The German Jews found the temple, the reform movement, uh, the old-timers, and you had the Russians and the others. But now the orthodox and conservative like to think of themselves as more Jewish, because they know more ritual, they observe more, versus the reform people, who they think are just, you know, make-believe Jews or Christian Jews almost. So there&#039 ; s that side of it, but there&#039 ; s also a tendency, as all these old families are dying out now on both sides, who had this divide, there&#039 ; s a push towards trying to merge these communities because of sheer numbers. I don&#039 ; t know if it&#039 ; ll happen, though. But yeah, there is a tendency to try to merge us. It&#039 ; s kind of like Southern Baptist versus Northern Baptist. What&#039 ; s the difference? I mean, it all started with the Civil War, you know, and slavery. But now, that&#039 ; s all gone, so they&#039 ; re merging. Why can&#039 ; t we all be just Jews together and sort of have a middle ground where we all--we&#039 ; re the same religion, really. It&#039 ; s kind of wild to have--but it&#039 ; s still there, and it&#039 ; s much more dramatic in a town like Lexington, where people wonder why is there a synagogue and a temple? What is the difference? Why do you have two Jewish, you know--and ours had nothing to do with, you know, the Civil War or anything, or anything, it&#039 ; s just, uh, two groups of people, two settlements, and the reform movement was very much a--it started with the German enlightenment, but in this country it&#039 ; s flowered, because all these German Jews settled in Cincinnati, which is right near Lexington, so we&#039 ; re really in the orb of the reform movement still, just by that virtue. So, I would love to see us merge, I&#039 ; d love to see us one people, one congregation. I think there&#039 ; s strength in numbers, especially as we dwindle. But who knows what&#039 ; ll happen, it&#039 ; s human nature. DONAHUE: What about other Jewish community groups, like the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass? Have you had any involvement with them? SHRABERG: My wife and I do give to that. My wife has been on the board, before she became president. I&#039 ; ve been involved with the Federation--I&#039 ; ve been a member of the temple and synagogue, too, over the years, by the way, so I&#039 ; ve done both. Uh, yeah, I think that there again, uh, our resources are so stretched that it&#039 ; s hard to do it all, but there is--the Jewish Federation is supposed to be a way of bringing all the Jews of the bluegrass together, so, uh--and there&#039 ; s other organizations, so, uh, there&#039 ; s Hadassah, which supports Hadassah Hospital in Israel, it&#039 ; s a women&#039 ; s organization, my wife&#039 ; s a member of that. So there&#039 ; s several volunteer organizations. These organizations, like Hadassah and Jewish Federation, again, were much stronger when your only social outlet was being part of the Jewish community. When you have kids playing soccer, you have all these other activities, UK sports and athletics, it&#039 ; s hard to get people to attend functions to support all these in this community now, because we&#039 ; re so assimilated. DONAHUE: Did your kids attend any of their functions while they were growing up? SHRABERG: My kids were involved in youth group and they did attend some camps, Jewish camps, so they had some involvement. Uh, probably not as much as I wished, but they made friends from some of their camps that they&#039 ; ve kept over the years, so I&#039 ; m happy about that, and these were Jewish friends, from all over the country, all over the region, which is nice. I mean, Lexington and Louisville are the main Jewish communities, there are little peripheral communities in Paducah and elsewhere, but yeah, I mean, it&#039 ; s good to know Jews in other states and parts of the country, so that&#039 ; s been a good thing about some of the camps that they&#039 ; ve gone to, youth camps. DONAHUE: So looking back, what, if anything, would you change about your relationship with Judaism? SHRABERG: Uh, I probably, retrospectively, wish I&#039 ; d been, and I guess maybe I&#039 ; m starting to show my age, I&#039 ; m sixty-nine now, I wish I&#039 ; d have been maybe more strongly identified myself as Jewish with my kids, and maybe, you know, I--unfortunately I&#039 ; m also a byproduct of the great assimilation, and even though my childhood was fashioned by this, you know, as I&#039 ; ve gotten older in America I&#039 ; m part of what&#039 ; s happening in our culture, where we&#039 ; re diversified, we&#039 ; re assimilated. I wish I&#039 ; d had had strong--I want my children to be Jewish. I just fear the disappearance of the Jewish people, and, you know, people say, well, what did you do? And if I say, well, you know, they all got bar mitzvahed. Is that all, bar mitzvahed? Well, I didn&#039 ; t stand up to them when they wanted to marry outside the faith, I didn&#039 ; t enforce them and encourage them to marry a Jewish boy or girl. I really didn&#039 ; t, because I felt that&#039 ; s almost like a gentile saying you have to marry a Christian, not a Jew, or something, you know. It just sounded--I wish there was some way, and maybe I&#039 ; m hoping that--I wish I could&#039 ; ve done more, I guess, to reinforce the Jewish identity in my children, but, you know, I did the best I could. But I think if you ask what I wish I&#039 ; d have done more--but, you know, like everybody in this society, between your job and demands, and unfortunately the temptations of social life, I was probably not as observant a Jew as I wished I could&#039 ; ve been. And you know, it&#039 ; s sad, because I&#039 ; m like so many people of my generation, as you get older, then you become more observant, for yourself, but your children have grown now, they don&#039 ; t--they&#039 ; re not going to be influenced by--if I go to temple, which I try to go two or three times a month now, they don&#039 ; t see that. When they were growing up I would go when they had to go, but I didn&#039 ; t necessarily go because I wanted to go. DONAHUE: So I&#039 ; m going to ask you a question that&#039 ; s probably impossible to answer, but what&#039 ; s the core of that Jewish identity for you? Is it religious? Is it cultural? Is it about history? SHRABERG: Boy, that&#039 ; s a tough question, it is. You know, and I&#039 ; ve thought this over my whole life, you know. As I said early on, growing up in Lexington gave me--I was Jewish by default, I was forced to be Jewish, because I didn&#039 ; t have a choice. So I can&#039 ; t be proud of that. You know, I think that what makes--and this is--I hate to sound chauvinistic. To me, I&#039 ; m a student of history, the idea that I have DNA in me that goes back thousands of years and that&#039 ; s in the history books, to think that I&#039 ; m part of the longest surviving ethnic group in the world, and that we produced this belief, this monotheism, and this text that certainly our society, you know, observes, you know, we&#039 ; re still a Judeo-Christian society, that gives me great pride, yeah. I like that belonging. I&#039 ; m embarrassed because I haven&#039 ; t been a better Jew, but I love the thought of having that--the very thing the Nazis tried to kill us over is the very thing that I&#039 ; m so proud of, you know, that we&#039 ; ve been able to carry on for thousands of years. Nobody else has been able to do that, you know. And by hook or crook, we&#039 ; ve done it. You know, I don&#039 ; t think intermarriage in any way ruined us. I&#039 ; m convinced that if we hadn&#039 ; t intermarried, we&#039 ; d have died out thousands of years ago. But we&#039 ; ve kept the idea alive, you know. I was always proud--the term I loved in school, and I know it&#039 ; s not politically correct now, but as a Jew, even when I was starting, I guess, junior high school, when they said, we are a Judeo-Christian society--we don&#039 ; t say that anymore, I know, but for a Jew who grew up in Lexington, it was such a nice thing to say. Oh, I&#039 ; m part of this great nation, Judeo-Christian, you know. And when I, you know--the old days, when you went to university, you had to learn--it was either Hebrew and/or Greek or Latin, but you had to learn Hebrew, because you had to read Bible. So I love being part of that, those people, that root. I don&#039 ; t care how many Jewish doctors there are or how many--what the average, you know, I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s--I think it&#039 ; s a myth how rich the Jew is or what Jew is that. I mean, that&#039 ; s nice, to know somebody is Jewish or somebody is not Jewish, you know, like--there&#039 ; s so many famous people that were--Einstein was Jewish. That&#039 ; s great. That&#039 ; s not as important to me as to be part of that just long line. I don&#039 ; t care if you&#039 ; re the humblest, poorest Jew, to be part of that tradition that goes back thousands of years, you know, when people read about Moses and Abraham, they&#039 ; re reading about my people. I mean, I have--I did that 23 and Me thing, and my DNA goes back thousands of years, I still have that DNA in me, and that makes me feel kind of cool. It&#039 ; s kind of a neat thing. I&#039 ; m not bragging, but it&#039 ; s just, it&#039 ; s a message that you carry a good ideal on, you should maintain the ideal, because the basic ideals of Judaism are very much like Christianity, you know. Charity, treat your neighbor like yourself, have a belief in justice. The God thing is different, we have our different versions of God, but that&#039 ; s not the core of Judaism. So that part I&#039 ; m really, yeah, but always a tough question, what makes--yeah. The selfish parts I try to avoid, like Einstein was a Jew, Freud was Jew. I mean, there are famous--just as many famous Christians as Jews as Buddhists, but that part, that we were able to maintain that, nobody else has done that, nobody. So that&#039 ; s kind of cool. And we&#039 ; ve survived. Even though we were a little shtetl group of Jews here, you know, we--if you look at me, you realize that, you know, way, way, way back there was Abraham and Moses, they&#039 ; re all my people. So that&#039 ; s kind of cool. Here I am in Lexington. So that part&#039 ; s neat. I like that part. That&#039 ; s the part--and that&#039 ; s why I worry about what&#039 ; ll be here 100 years. Are we going to just be like in the zoo, like part of the panda population? That was a Jew, that&#039 ; s what they looked like. I hope not. DONAHUE: Is there anything else that you&#039 ; d like to say that I haven&#039 ; t asked you about? SHRABERG: No, but thank you for making me think. I&#039 ; m a big talker, so I&#039 ; d better shut up. I enjoyed it, and I&#039 ; m sorry for keeping you late. DONAHUE: No, it was--thank you so much for coming in. It&#039 ; s very interesting, and we really appreciate it. SHRABERG: My pleasure. Thanks. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh053_jk019_shraberg.xml 2016oh053_jk019_shraberg.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh053_jk019_shraberg.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource David Shraberg, April 18, 2016 Description An account of the resource David Shraberg describes his family's immigration from Lithuania to Somerset in 1900 and how his grandfather worked as a peddler to bring his bride-to-be over from Lithuania. His family eventually moved to Lexington in order to be part of a larger Jewish community. He discusses his grandfather's establishment of a scrapyard on Manchester Street. Shraberg's father took over the family scrap business when his father fell ill with Hodgkin's disease. Working in the scrapyard as a child gave Shraberg insight into human behavior, eventually leading him to a career in neurology. Although he enjoyed attending services at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg discusses the difficulties that existed while he was growing up in maintaining a Jewish identity in a smaller Jewish community, such as having to miss school to attend High Holiday services. Shraberg discusses the anti-Semitism he experienced while growing up in Lexington. He remembers seeing racism against African-Americans in Lexington during the 1950s and 1960s. While attending the University of Kentucky, Shraberg rushed for Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) and became aware of the rampant anti-Semitism and racism in Greek life on campus. The incidents would range from comments and slurs to refusing Jews into fraternities. He also discusses the political tensions, ranging from the Civil Rights Movement to demonstrations against the Vietnam War on the University of Kentucky's campus during the 1970s. Shraberg discusses the choice to raise his family in Lexington and the meaning of Judaism and the Jewish community across the generations. While a leader at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg wrestled with the problem of dwindling temple membership due to intermarriage and acculturation, and an aging congregation. He served as Temple president from 2006 to 2008. The issue of human rights in Israel is a contentious issue within the Temple Adath Israel congregation because Reform Judaism tends to be more politically active in social justice issues. As a result, Temple leadership is very careful about how certain events are executed and tend to avoid politics altogether. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh053_jk019_shraberg Subject The topic of the resource Judaism. Religion Jewish children Jewish families. Lexington (Ky.) Discrimination. Jews--Identity. Anti-Semitism University of Kentucky Childhood Race discrimination--Kentucky Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/e4ed9de72267c4e521735cecb2f1d3bb.jpeg 6b8e69b53e49ac57d5b1418a96e7ae54 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sandy Levy Interview Keyword Jews--Identity. Jewish children Worship (Judaism) Religion Discrimination. OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh049_jk017 Interview with Sandy Levy, April 11, 2016 2016oh049_jk017 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Lexington (Ky.) Traditional farming Family farms. Livestock. Family histories. Jews--Identity. Jewish children Worship (Judaism) Religion Discrimination. Sandy Levy Janice Crane 1:|14(12)|30(17)|63(11)|85(13)|98(10)|110(8)|119(9)|146(1)|166(6)|188(9)|197(7)|219(11)|233(13)|245(4)|258(2)|266(13)|279(1)|293(9)|305(5)|343(1)|350(10)|369(8)|382(3)|395(8)|411(4)|432(16)|445(3)|456(4)|465(5)|475(14)|501(10)|511(1)|525(4)|535(11)|544(9)|551(13)|570(6)|584(8)|593(6)|615(7)|626(7)|637(10)|652(13)|661(11)|675(3)|690(11)|704(8)|730(3)|745(3)|759(8)|776(3)|790(13)|801(13)|819(3)|839(13)|857(12)|871(13)|885(1)|895(12)|910(2)|919(10)|927(15)|937(4)|949(7)|966(8)|975(8)|986(3)|1001(11)|1012(9) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253326280&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 1 Introduction / Levy's family background For official purposes, today is April the 11th, 2016. And my name is Janice Crane and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Sanford (Sandy) Elliot Levy was born in Lexington, Kentucky at Good Samaritan Hospital. His grandparents, Joe and Jennie Levy were part of a wave of Jewish immigration from a shtetl in present-day Lithuania named Pushelat that was a result of the Bolshevik Revolution. Sandy has one brother, Paul Levy, who is one of the authors of &quot ; The Original Foodie Handbook&quot ; and several other books on a group of English intellectuals known as the Bloomsbury Circle. He also wrote a book about Lexington Jewish history entitled &quot ; Finger Lickin' Good: A Kentucky Childhood.&quot ; Sandy also names his wives, children, and grandchildren. &quot ; Finger Lickin' Good: A Kentucky Childhood&quot ; ; &quot ; The Original Foodie Handbook&quot ; ; Ann Barr ; Arcadia Park ; Bloomsbury Circle ; Bolshevik Revolution ; Christian Harmon ; Colleen Levy ; Dana Gregory ; Darien (Conn.) ; G.E. Moore ; Good Samaritan Hospital on Harrison Avenue ; Hermain (Tenn.) ; Hyman Solomon Levy ; Jennie Herman ; Jennifer (Levy) Harmon ; Joe Levy ; Joe Miller ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Lytton Strachey ; Megan Levy ; Miranda Harmon ; Paul Levy ; Pushelat (Lithuania) ; Sanford Elliot Levy ; Scott Levy ; Shirley Betty Singer ; Shtetl ; Tommy Levy Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. 38.0422416, -84.50068820000001 17 Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky http://www.paullevy.com/paullevy.htm A website about Sandy's brother Paul Levy. 539 Levy family farming business Okay. Before we get into your parents' occupation and/or yours, let's talk some about the work that your paternal grandfather Joe Levy did, since he was both in the dry goods business and in the farming business. Levy's grandfather, Herman Levy, partially owned a retail clothing store on Upper Street, in Lexington, Kentucky, He primarily owned farmland in the southern Lexington area where they grew tobacco, raised cattle, and did various other agricultural ventures. Athens Boonesboro ; Billy Golton ; Bob Oestreicher ; Cattle farms ; Cleveland Road ; Dry goods ; Fred Basler ; Harry Goller ; Jennie Kraus ; Jerry Moskovitz ; Joe Levy ; Joe Miller ; Kosher butchers ; Levi Jeans ; Marvin Kraus ; Max Kraus ; Michael Oestreicher ; Mike Oestreicher ; Pushcarts ; Richmond Road ; Rosenberg's (jewelry store) ; Ruthie Oestriecher ; Sam Herman ; Tobacco farms ; Tobacco subsidization ; Winchester (Ky.) Entrepreneurship ; Family farms. ; Farm life. ; Food animals. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Livestock. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Traditional farming 37.9493719, -84.36442899999997 17 Approximate Location of the Farms that Joe Levy Owned http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7qrf5kb01p/data/96pa103_167/96pa103_167.pdf Joe Levy's retail clothing store on Upper Street 1385 The Levy family and Welgo Traders Okay. At what point in time did your family go from the cattle business to the retail business and how did this trans, transition take place? Levy's father began the shoe department at Meyers' store in downtown Lexington, Kentucky and eventually became one of the founders of the Welgo Traders in 1951, one of the largest retail clothing stores in Lexington, Kentucky for much of the 20th century. After Welgo Traders closed as a result of other department stores moving into the area, Sandy Levy moved into the real estate business. He also discusses the relationship he had with the owners of Mr. Wigg's department stores. Breckinridge School ; David Weil ; Hoskell Goldberg ; Joe Miller ; Meyer's ; Old Kentucky Chocolates ; S. Broadway ; Southland Drive ; Sterling Radio ; University of Kentucky ; Vivian Weil ; Welgo ; Winchester Road Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.041537, -84.46705099999997 17 Original location of Welgo Traders http://i.imgur.com/2wToZzk.jpg Mr. Wigg's Department Store 2414 Levy's Jewish upbringing Um, how would you describe your parents', your mother, and your father's relationship to Judaism? Levy's father was very religious and would oftentimes substitute and lead Jewish services for the rabbi in Lexington, Kentucky at Ohavay Zion Synagogue. Levy was never very religious and his ex-wife Luann was the first woman to receive a bat mitzvah at Temple Adath Israel. He reflects on sitting in religious services at the synagogue as a child, attending Sunday school at the Temple, and dealing with anti-Semitism while in elementary school. He attended Lafayette High School, was a member of the local Jewish youth group and attended Jewish summer camp at Camp GUCI in Zionsville, Indiana. Afikomen ; Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Douglas High School ; Eight Degrees of Charity ; Joe Levy ; Jonah Jacobs ; Kenwick Elementary School ; Lafayette High School ; Maimonides ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; Passover Seder ; Paul Laurence Dunbar High School ; Rabbi Joe Rosenbloom ; Rabbi Robert A. Rothman ; Rabbis ; Sam Herman ; Singer family ; Temple Adath Israel ; Will Dunn ; Women and Judaism ; Yom Kippur ; Zionsville (Ind.) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 39.92304300000001, -86.28361699999999 17 Goldman Union Camp Institute (GUCI) in Zionsville, Indiana. 3001 Levy's college life and adult Jewish life I know that your first college experience began at Miami of Ohio. Levy attended Miami University in Ohio briefly before transferring to the University of Kentucky. He dropped out of college after his junior year but while he was in school he played all night poker games with his friends where he made enough money to build his first house. He wasn't involved in any student organizations while he was a student and his Judaism had little impact on his college life. He married his long-time girlfriend Luann at the age of 21. They sent their children to Sunday school per the request of his father, but because of their lack of interest in Judaism the kids never became very religious. Sandy also discusses some of their family friends that were Jewish, and their affiliation with the Lexington Jewish community. English major ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; Harriet Ades ; Hillel ; Linden Walk (Lexington) ; Lou Ann Levy ; Lowenthal Family ; Marc Kline ; Miami (OH) University ; Mike Ades ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Phi Gamma Delta (Fiji) ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Chicago ; University of Kentucky ; Winniker Family College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. 38.037093, -84.49896580000001 17 Linden Walk, Lexington, Kentucky http://images.universityherald.com/data/images/full/1238/miami-university-ohio.jpg?w=600 Miami University (Ohio) 3543 Levy's business ventures / Jewish life reflections Um, what work do you do or did you do that we haven't already talked about? Levy had numerous business ventures throughout his life. He opened up a group of department stores called The Better Half that sold uniquely sized women's clothing. He also was one of the co-founders of FastCare which later became Kroger's The Little Clinic. He reflects on his views of the Jewish religion before discussing his step-father Arthur &quot ; Babe&quot ; Meyers. Arthur &quot ; Babe&quot ; Meyers ; Bob Stevens ; Chevy Chase (Lexington, Ky.) ; Dave Greenwald ; FastCare ; Florence Mall ; Joseph A Banks (store) ; Kenwood (Cincinnati, Ohio) ; Kroger ; Lexington Mall ; McAlpin's ; Quaker Oats ; Stuart Lowenthal ; The Better Half (store) ; The Lexington Herald Leader ; The Little Clinic ; Yarmulkes Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 interview Sanford (Sandy) Elliot Levy was born in Lexington, Kentucky. His grandparents, Joe and Jennie Levy were part of a wave of Jewish immigration from a shtetl in present-day Lithuania named Pushelat that was a result of the Bolshevik Revolution. Levy's grandfather, Herman Levy, partially owned a retail clothing store on Upper Street, in Lexington, Kentucky, He also owned farmland in the southern Lexington area where they grew tobacco, raised cattle, and did various other agricultural ventures. Levy's father began the shoe department at Meyers' store in downtown Lexington, Kentucky and eventually became one of the founders of the Welgo Traders in 1951, one of the largest retail clothing stores in Lexington, Kentucky. Levy himself had numerous business ventures throughout his life. Levy's father was very religious and would oftentimes substitute and lead Jewish services for the rabbi in Lexington, Kentucky at Ohavay Zion Synagogue. He reflects on sitting in religious services at the synagogue as a child, attending Sunday school at the Temple, and dealing with anti-Semitism while in elementary school. He wasn't involved in any student organizations while he was a student and his Judaism had little impact on his college life. CRANE: For official purposes, today is April the 11th, 2016. And my name is Janice Crane and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I&#039 ; m honored to be here today with Sandy Levy. Sandy and I are actually cousins. His grandfather was my great uncle and although we share some family history, I suspect that our experience and memories are quite different. In fact, I&#039 ; m looking forward to having Sandy fill in some holes for me as he shares his stories for others to hear. So let&#039 ; s begin. Since I know that Sandy&#039 ; s not your real name, for the record, what is your full name and when and where were you born? LEVY: Sanford Elliot Levy. I was born, uh, uh, in Lexington at Good Samaritan Hospital. CRANE: Okay. And I also know that neither of your parents are alive, but again for the record, what were their names and where were they from? LEVY: Um, my mother&#039 ; s name was Shirley Betty Singer before marrying my father, Hyman Solomon Levy. Mom was from Cleveland. Uh, Dad was born in Lexington. CRANE: Okay. Since both your paternal grandfather and grandmother were part of larger Jewish families and immigrated to this area, tell us their names and where they were from. LEVY: Uh, Joe Levy, my grandfather, and, uh, to my knowledge, my grandmother, uh, whose, I guess, Americanized name was Jennie, uh, uh, was a Herman. And uh, I believe she was also from the same area in Lithuania, Pushelat. CRANE: Okay. Did your parents&#039 ; and your grandparents&#039 ; names change when they came to America? LEVY: Uh, as far as I know, on the, uh, Levy side, I believe it was, uh, Leggan or something like that. CRANE: Ligum. LEVY: Ligum. Sorry. And then Americanized to Levy. Um, my grandmother&#039 ; s side, uh, it was, I believe, [Baron?]. That was the story I was always told, and again changed to Herman to Americanize it. CRANE: Hm. I once heard a story, um, that they were supposed to go to some place in Tennessee named-- LEVY: Her-- CRANE: --Hermain, Tennessee. LEVY: Right. I heard it was called Harriman, but perhaps. CRANE: Oh. Oh, I see. Harriman. LEVY: Yeah, and, uh. CRANE: Harriman, Tennessee-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --and that&#039 ; s when they changed it. LEVY: Yep. CRANE: Did your parents and your grandparents, um, tell you much about Pushelat? LEVY: Honestly, I have very recollection, uh, of any stories, uh, either of them might have told me. Really, I think most information that I&#039 ; ve gotten came from cousins of mine who did the research, Joe Miller being one them who really had great interest in it. CRANE: I&#039 ; ve heard that your grandfather, my great uncle Joe Levy, was the first of the Ligum-Levy family that came here from Pushelat. It was the shtetl in Lithuania and they came around the Bolshevik Revolution. LEVY: That&#039 ; s the story-- CRANE: Okay. LEVY: --I had heard. CRANE: What do you know about how they and so many others from Pushelat came to this area? Why Lexington? LEVY: Uh, honestly I, I really don&#039 ; t know why. Uh, you know, in my later years, I&#039 ; ve come to look at it as possibly being just nothing more than a wives tale. I can&#039 ; t believe that half the community came from the same, uh, same tiny shtetl. Uh, I really don&#039 ; t have any information on that issue. CRANE: I know you have a brother. Uh, what is his name and age related to you? LEVY: Uh, my brother Paul Levy, uh, is, uh, three years my senior. Uh, he&#039 ; s lived in, uh, England, uh, in the Oxfordshire area for perhaps 50 odd years at this point. CRANE: Um, I know that, um, he&#039 ; s quite well known in his area of expertise. And if you could share just a little bit about that, um, I&#039 ; ve heard he was the original foodie? LEVY: Uh, in fact, in 1984, he and Ann Barr collaborated on, uh, I believe it was called The Original [sic] Foodie Handbook, uh, and they made the tiny error of not copywriting the name foodie, the word foodie, and consequently it&#039 ; s now used generically. Uh, Paul&#039 ; s written, uh, many books, uh, relative to, uh, cooking, including, by the way, some on Kentucky cooking, which is kind of interesting. And his primary, uh, field is, uh, uh, that of, uh, the Bloomsbury circle. Uh, he&#039 ; s written books on Lytton Strachey, uh, G.E. Moore, and several others, uh, of the Bloomsbury circle. CRANE: I know that among Paul&#039 ; s many journalistic pieces, he wrote a book about Lexington Jewish history. If you would, could you share with us just a very brief overview of that book and what might have prompted him to write it? LEVY: I suspect Paul considers this to be his autobiography, uh, of his youth in Lexington. Uh, it, it&#039 ; s really very interesting because, uh, uh, reading the book the first time, uh, uh, I was--I thought the contrast in his view and mine, uh, were really, uh, startling. Uh, uh, I was always a really active kid, uh, probably one who should have been on Ritalin if they had it at the time, and I remember living on Arcadia Park, uh, North Arcadia. And between North and South Arcadia, we had this wonderful triangular piece of land and all the kids, uh, would have carnivals, and we&#039 ; d play baseball, and football, and all sorts of sports, and my memories of that time of my youth, uh, were it was maybe one of the happiest times of my life. I had a great time, loved all those kids, loved the parents in the neighborhood. Paul, on the other hand, wrote about growing up on this street filled with ruffians, uh, and what a horrible time it was, and, uh, he was very, uh, surprised that he was able to escape the area. CRANE: Wow. LEVY: Uh, kind of the difference, I guess, between two bothers. CRANE: That&#039 ; s pretty interesting. Maybe you were one of the ruffians, huh? LEVY: I suspect I was. Still am. CRANE: (laughs) LEVY: I hate to brag. (laughs) CRANE: Once upon a time, I know that you were married to Lou Ann Cassell-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --who&#039 ; s also from the Lexington Jewish community, who grew up with her many sisters in the pink house, now yellow, on South Hanover. And I know you and Lou Ann had children, so what are your children&#039 ; s names and the names of your grandchildren? LEVY: Uh, uh, we have two children, uh, uh, Jennifer is the eldest. Uh, uh, she married, uh, Shawn Harmon. They have two children, uh, Miranda, who&#039 ; s seventeen and off to college this next year, and Christian, who is thirteen. Uh, Scott, our youngest, uh, married, uh, Colleen, uh--oh, that&#039 ; s terrible, I can&#039 ; t remember her maiden name. Uh, but they have two children, uh, Tommy, thirteen, Megan, who is nine now. CRANE: Wow. Um, I also know that you we--you were remarried, but, um, don&#039 ; t recall her name. What was the name of your second wife and where was she from? LEVY: Uh, Dana Gregory, uh, was actually her married name, uh, from her first husband, uh, and she was originally from--let&#039 ; s see, it&#039 ; s in New Jersey. Uh, Derry, Darien, I believe, New--uh, Darien, Connecticut, I&#039 ; m sorry. Is that right, Connecticut? New Jersey? One or the other, I can&#039 ; t remember. CRANE: Up east. LEVY: Hm? Up east. CRANE: Up east. LEVY: Definitely. CRANE: Okay. Before we get into your parents&#039 ; occupation and or yours, let&#039 ; s talk some about the work that your paternal grandfather Joe Levy did, since he was both in the dry goods business and in the farming business. I read an article that Joe Miller, who you mentioned just a little-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --bit ago, one of your cousins, um, that he did several years before he passed about his maternal grandfather, Sam Herman, also from the shtetl in Lithuania, and in the article he stated that his grandfather was in the dry goods business with his brother-in-law. And I&#039 ; m thinking that was Joe Levy, your grandfather, since he was married to Sam&#039 ; s sister, Yachna-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --or as some called Jennie. LEVY: Right. CRANE: Um, so what can you share about the Herman Levy business on Upper Street? LEVY: Uh, my--my recollection is that it had primarily work clothes, uh, probably Levi jeans, things of that ilk. Uh, very, very small store, uh, wooden floors, uh, it had wooden tables, uh, and basically, I viewed it as, uh, a place where my grandfather, I guess, would work part--partially, and then go out to the farms, uh, and I remember as a child, my grandfather would, uh, put me in the truck, and it would take about forty-five minutes, uh, to drive from that area downtown, uh, to the farms, which, uh, now, of course, are a straight shot. Richmond Road becomes Athens Boonesboro, which leads to one farm that&#039 ; s currently, uh, at the intersection of I-seventy-five and, uh, Athens Boonesboro, and then going straight down Athens Boonesboro to the four-way stop where it intersects at Cleveland Road. And two more farms were, uh, uh--the first farm on the right on Cleveland Road behind the old Athens schoolhouse and church. Um, and he used to take me to the farm all the time. Uh, I really enjoyed it, uh, you know, my brother hated it, I loved it--(laughs)--so once again, the contrast. CRANE: What, um--what happened to the store on--the dry good store on Upper Street? LEVY: I-- CRANE: How did it get started? Do you know what they did when-- LEVY: --I-- CRANE: --they first-- LEVY: --I really-- CRANE: --came to America? LEVY: --don&#039 ; t know how it started. The stories that I&#039 ; ve heard, of course, were that, uh, my grandfather and I suspect his, uh, perhaps, cousins, in-laws, all had pushcarts, and, uh, were selling their wares off of the pushcart, and turned that into the store, the little purchase of, uh, farmland, et cetera, and, uh, that&#039 ; s how they, uh--that&#039 ; s how they began in America. CRANE: Do you recall any other relative stores in that area? LEVY: Uh, well, sure, you had Rosenberg&#039 ; s, of course, uh, uh, which was close by. Phillip Gall&#039 ; s across the street on--on Upper as well, um, and there were numerous stores up and down Main Street. There were, uh, ki--all owned by Jewish families, uh, generally, I think, in that--in that same area of time as a rule. CRANE: How did Joe Levy go from the dry goods business in downtown Lexington to the cattle business south of town? LEVY: Uh, again I am uncertain as to how--how this started. Uh, uh, one story that I recall, I&#039 ; d heard from, uh, Joe, Joe Miller, was that, uh, the in-laws essentially traded farms. Uh, some had farmers near, uh, Winchester as I recall, uh, and somehow that&#039 ; s how we ended up with the, uh, uh, Joe Levy Farms in Lexington. Uh, I really don&#039 ; t know the voracity of any of those stories. CRANE: Who else was involved besides your grandfather in the farms? LEVY: Uh, well, of course, my father, uh, was involved, and, uh, you know, and after my grandfather, uh, really became ill, my father took over the maintenance of the farms. Uh, we always had, uh, a farm manager, uh, who lived on the premises, and, uh, he was really the person responsible, uh, for the day-to-day activity. CRANE: And what--what were the day-to-day activities on a cattle farm in Lexington--(laughs)--Kentucky? LEVY: Well, uh, it was not only, uh, as it were, running the cattle, but also, uh, growing the feed for the cattle, uh, corn and so forth. Uh, we grew tobacco as well, and, uh, as near as I could tell, that was probably an eight to ten hour a day job and, uh, likely seven days a week. CRANE: What happened to the cattle? LEVY: Uh, eventually, uh, and this was long after my father died and I was managing the farms, uh, uh, it reached the point that, uh, we had to make a decision on how to r--how to maintain the herd, uh, effectively, uh, uh, by the time we reached the third generation, and that would be me. Uh, as an example, my share of the farm was, I think, 13.5 percent. So we had ownership, uh, ranging from cousins in California, uh, to of course my brother in England, and, uh, everyone had an opinion, but the greatest opinion was how do we, uh, get more money out of this. Uh, so effectively we decided, uh, at a late point in time, that it was time to call the herd, uh, reduce, uh, some of the expenses, increase the income, and by that, really, uh, created, uh, I guess, an infusion of capital. Uh, combined with that, we had the issue of tobacco. Uh, uh, I for one wanted to eliminate the tobacco crop. Uh, tobacco was still being subsidized at that point, and, uh, I had a lot of resistance, uh, from some of the cousins because tobacco was a good cash crop, and also resistance from the, uh, tenant farmer, the manager, uh, in that he was--he considered himself a tobacco farmer and really was reluctant to look into, uh, uh, crops that could have been more profitable that might have required a few years of growth in order to create that profitability. CRANE: How many acres were these--where--there were three farms? LEVY: There were three farms, two of which, really, were the working farm. Uh, uh, the one on Athens Boonesboro, as I recall, was 225 acres. The larger farm on Cleveland Pike, uh, behind the old schoolhouse was probably in the 260 or seventy range. And then, uh, we had a thirty-five acre farm that was down the road and that was used primarily, uh, uh, occasionally just to, uh, run cattle, uh, for extra feed and so forth on occasion. CRANE: Were the cattle sold? LEVY: The cattle were eventually sold. We disbanded, uh--dispersed the, uh--the entire herd, it&#039 ; s--at one point, uh, uh, when we knew that it was time to start selling the farms. Um, and prior to that, we&#039 ; d really reduced &#039 ; em. Uh, when my grandfather was in charge, we started raising purebred, uh, cattle, which also required, uh, registering the cattle, and paying fees, and, uh, there was a determination during my father&#039 ; s regime that this was an unnecessary expense, so, uh, they were no longer considered, you know, we no longer raised them as purebred cattle. CRANE: During the years that the farm was operated by your grandfather, um, there was also a local kosher butcher on Fourth and Upper Street named Harry Goller. Um, if there was one, describe the connection your gra--grandfather&#039 ; s cattle farm had with the kosher butcher. Um, if any of the cattle that, um, Joe raised were sold as kosher meat, how did this happen? LEVY: To my knowledge, none was ever sold as kosher meat. Uh, I don&#039 ; t believe Mr. Goller ever processed any meat in his store. Uh, uh, to my knowledge, uh, and again, you know, I was a kid going into that--that store, and, you know, the main--main thing I remember would be all the salamis--(laughs)--hanging from the ceiling, and, uh, uh, you know, I remember lots of chickens--(laughs)--but beyond that, I, uh, I doubt that anything was ever done. Uh, any cattle we ever slaughtered, uh, went to, uh, uh, a local butcher, and, uh, that was--those were few and far between. CRANE: So you didn&#039 ; t actually slaught--you--the cattle, you sold to other people, to a slaughtering-- LEVY: Um, yeah, or they would go to market, uh. CRANE: Oh, I see. LEVY: Yeah, uh, and, yeah. Again, to produce income. CRANE: Um, in doing some research about your family, I noticed that Billy Golton, your dad&#039 ; s--I hope I get this all right. Your dad&#039 ; s sister Becky&#039 ; s son, and Jerry Moskovitz, and his mom, Esther, who was also one of your dad&#039 ; s-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --sisters, were listed as principals of the farm corporation. However, there were a few names that I&#039 ; m not familiar with. One was Marvin-- LEVY: Kraus. CRANE: --Kraus? LEVY: Um-hm. CRANE: --and the other was Michael-- LEVY: Oestreicher. CRANE: --Oestreicher. Who are they and how are the connected with the-- LEVY: Uh-- CRANE: --farm? LEVY: Well, they are, uh, Jennie Kraus&#039 ; offspring, or actually, uh, grand--uh, Marvin is the son, Mike Oestreicher is the son of, uh, oops--a senior moment--Ruthie. Ruthie was married to, uh, Bob Oestreicher, uh, who died very, very, young. Uh, they had three children. Mike was the eldest. He&#039 ; s an attorney in Cincinnati currently. He has two sisters, uh, Terry and Nancy. Um, on the other side, Marvin Kraus, uh, is the offspring of Jennie and, uh, Max Kraus as well, and, uh, he had--sorry, where am I now? I&#039 ; m with Marvin. Marvin and Ruthie, uh, each had, uh, children. Marvin has three children, all boys, and unless I&#039 ; m mistaken, he&#039 ; s got at least one rabbi in the bunch and perhaps two, or perhaps one is married to a rabbi, I&#039 ; m uncertain of that. CRANE: And was Jennie-- LEVY: Jennie was the eldest, uh, of--of Joe and Jennie, or Yachna&#039 ; s, offspring. Uh, it was Jennie, Rebecca, uh, Esther--I&#039 ; m sorry, my father, and Esther was the baby. CRANE: I see. Okay. Um, share whatever you--some of your fondest memories of the farm that you can remember. LEVY: Well, that&#039 ; s, uh--(laughs)-- CRANE: As a young boy, what did it look like? What do you remember? LEVY: Well, you know, the one thing that I definitely remember, of course, would be the cattle because, you know, just being a kid, I loved the cattle. Uh, lots of chickens running around all the time, you know, and I&#039 ; m sure as a toddler, I was likely chasing all the chickens and so forth. Uh, but, uh, I can remember, uh, the story of the one, uh, bull, uh, who they kept separated, who they called Poor Boy. Uh, he was really a monstrous thing, and I don&#039 ; t know, uh, uh, you know, exactly how many progeny he had, but, uh, I always wondered why they called him Poor Boy. And our tenant farmer, who&#039 ; s name was, uh, Fred Basler,uh, educated me on that, uh, when I was probably six years old, uh, by saying, &quot ; Well, we call him Poor Boy because if you look underneath, Sandy, you&#039 ; can see what--what he&#039 ; s dragging on the ground.&quot ; --(laughs)--and I looked down, and of course the poor bulls&#039 ; testicles were always hitting the rocks and everything--(laughs)--and as he walked. Uh, you know, so that--I mean, I had some interesting, uh, memories--(laughs)--as a kid, and that&#039 ; s certainly one of them at that age. CRANE: Um, that&#039 ; s a pretty good story. LEVY: Oh, yeah. Ha. CRANE: Okay. At what point in time did your family go from the cattle business to the retail business and how did this trans--transition take place? LEVY: Well, the story that I heard, uh, as to my father, was that perhaps out of UK [University of Kentucky], he became perhaps a dairy farmer. Now I don&#039 ; t have any recollection of any of that, nor do I recall any stories, uh, again, I may have attributed this to Joe Miller. Um, evidently, he was not successful, and, uh, he got into the retail business, uh, opening the shoe department at, uh, Meyers&#039 ; in downtown Lexington. Uh, he leased that department for years and years, and, uh, from the point, uh--I guess he must have been successful enough in that business that that led to the opening of, uh, Welgo, uh, along with two other original partners, uh, in 1951. And Welgo, uh, was the first freestanding store not in the downtown area in Lexington. Uh, uh, evidently, uh, I gather, if given a choice, the downtown, uh, merchants probably would have preferred to lynch him at the--uh, because from the opening of the store, evidently, uh, uh, the sales went through the ceiling after about six months, and, uh, the store grew, and grew, over the years. CRANE: You have, um, a couple of photographs of what clearly looks like a very busy store. Could you-- LEVY: Oh, let&#039 ; s see-- CRANE: --just share those? LEVY: --sure, uh, let&#039 ; s see. Let&#039 ; s start-- CRANE: And you can share the one of the-- LEVY: Well, let&#039 ; s start-- CRANE: --the front store. LEVY: --yeah, let&#039 ; s start with this. This picture is the first, uh, Welgo that was built, uh--I believed they open in, uh, either late October of early November of 1951. Uh, that was their first store and, uh, that store and as an example of how busy they were, this store is the Winchester Road store following one of its, uh, I believe three expansions. Uh, it went from approximately 5,000 square feet to eventually 34,500 square feet. CRANE: Wow. LEVY: Uh and-- CRANE: How much are those pants? LEVY: (laughs) The pants, uh, shown there are $1.50. Uh, I assume they were on sale and probably were regularly $1.99--(laughs)--if you can imagine. You can&#039 ; t get a pair of socks for that today. Um, the next store that opened in, uh, I believe 1957, uh, was on the Southland Drive, and this is the store. It&#039 ; s currently, uh, occupied by Old Kentucky Chocolates. Uh, to give you an idea of how much business we did, uh, this is a picture-- CRANE: Geez. LEVY: --one of the pictures during the opening. But to give you an idea, the side parking lot, uh, was almost always filled, especially on the weekends. Uh, the owner of Old Kentucky Chocolates has added a two-story building in the old parking lot because he didn&#039 ; t need the excess parking--(laughs)--if you can imagine. Um, here&#039 ; s another picture I believe that would also be on Southland Drive, uh, don&#039 ; t know the exact vintage, but I notice there is some dresses on sale for $15--(laughs)--um, and I can&#039 ; t tell now--can&#039 ; t tell if they&#039 ; re brand name or not. But, uh, they were always busy until, uh, the discount stores arrived in Lexington in the sixties. CRANE: Can you share what made those, um, those stores special, um, and how they were different from other retail stores besides their location? LEVY: Uh, I think the--the one thing that they did originally is, uh, my--my father, I guess, was really the merchant, uh, of the three partners. One partner sold out pretty quickly, uh, and that--his name was Hoskell Goldberg by the way. Hoskell had, uh, Sterling--I think it was called Sterling Radio and something on South Broadway originally. Uh, David Weil and his wife Vivian. Uh, David was an, uh, attorney. His wife Vivian is still alive. And Vivian, uh, became one of the merchandisers as well, um, and she was very active in the business along with my dad. Uh, one of the things that they did that I thought was very unique is they tried to learn about quality of merchandise. Uh, originally, what they discovered was that a lot of the so-called name brands refused to sell them because they were trying to discount. So consequently, uh, I think my dad, especially, and likely Vivian as well, educated themselves as to how you measure quality in garments and they tried to buy like quality and sell that for a lower price point than, uh, goods were being offered in the downtown area. Uh, as time passed and Welgo became really a dominant, uh, business in Lexington, uh, some of these brand names, Levi&#039 ; s being an example, uh, came to Welgo and said, &quot ; Would you please sell our merchandise?&quot ; (laughs) And that was the point at which, uh, really, I think, things really went through the ceiling. CRANE: One of the things that I remember about the Lexington Jewish community was that so many people were connected. They were related by blood or marriage, they went to the temple or the synagogue together, or they worked or were in business together like you just mentioned-- LEVY: Sure. CRANE: --um, Hoskell Goldberg and David Weil-- LEVY: Correct. CRANE: --and your, um, father. I know that at one time, my mother worked at Welgos. LEVY: Um-hm. CRANE: And so did my brother, Harvey-- LEVY: Yeah. CRANE: --and in fact, I worked there occasionally during, um, school breaks. But I know that there were other Jewish people who worked at Welgos, um, who were part of the business. Who were they, and how were they recruited, and what were their roles? LEVY: Oh gosh. (laughs) Well, uh, I certainly recall Shelly Derer, uh, uh, being there for years. Uh, Shelly, I believe, was the women&#039 ; s wear buyer. Um, we had a gentleman named Milton Sims, who was Jewish, who actually had two tenures at Welgo. Uh, uh, and, um, Milton, uh, interestingly enough, uh, uh, as--as a kid, I always viewed him as a stern old man. I always loved Shelly and I thought Milton was, uh, you know, just a little gruff for my taste. Uh, in later life, after Milton had retired, uh, I actually ran into him when I was, uh, actually jogging through a park and Milton was walking. And his wife had passed away, Milton, uh, was retired, and anyway, yeah, I ended up, uh, kind of renewing, uh, the friendship as it were, and discovered that this really wonderful man, uh, dedicated his latter years, uh, to young kids. Uh, he, I believe, went to Breckinridge school. I may have the name wrong, but I believe that was it. And he started reading to some of the younger kids who were having difficulty, uh, uh, with reading skills. Um, Milton then developed, uh, some major problems and eventually, uh, was blind, but had memorized all the books. And the kids used to read to Mr. Milton, uh, and he would correct them, and, you know, he was a wonderful guy. But anyway, that--I mean, that&#039 ; s one of my fonder memories, I must admit. Uh, as far as others, uh, we had a gentleman named Joe Abish, uh, who was a buyer and, uh, again, kind of a general manager. This was after my, uh, dad was bedridden, and, uh, I had been running the business for a few years. Uh, Joe was very talented and, uh, eventually, uh, did move on. CRANE: What was it like working with--with these other Jews from the community? LEVY: I-- CRANE: Was it unique or different because they were Jewish? LEVY: Um, other than, I think, I was always brought up to respect my elders, so that extend, I guess, uh, when I essentially had to take over the business, uh, you know, I--I wasn&#039 ; t always comfortable trying to, uh, I guess, have things done mine way. Uh, that was a little difficult as far as being Jewish, uh, or not, uh, I don&#039 ; t think it--that had a major impact on me. CRANE: What happened to Welgos? LEVY: Oh, I think, uh, I think Welgo was--probably is a typical American retail story. Um, first generation, uh, that would be my dad and the Weils, uh, did it a certain way, uh, had difficulty adapting when--when competitions came in, and would do similar things, and quite frankly do it better. And the adjustments that they chose to make, in my opinion, were probably not the right ones. Uh, uh, I suspect that had--had my father remained a risk-taker and expanded before the first K-Mart opened, as an example, and I believe they were the first discounter in town, uh, likely, had he had three or four stores around Lexington, and large stores as well, I don&#039 ; t think the impact would have been the same. Uh, the result, I think, is he made choices to start eliminating departments, uh, where the discounters, the large discounters, had more depth, lower prices, and that let--left less and less opportunities. So the volume declined, uh, and he was really, I think, unable to modify the nature of the business. Um, when I came in, I had some really tough years, uh, as a result of that. Um, and ultimately, uh, you know, when, I guess, I--I did my risk-taking ventures, uh, some were miserable failures, uh, and then I got lucky and started making some better choices, and I had some very, very, uh, profitable years. And once again, I think Welgo could have probably still existed if my kids had had interest in the store. Uh, basically, their level of interest was--was very, very low and the business itself was really, uh, time intensive. Uh, uh, by the time, uh, I had the realization that I had to continue working I&#039 ; m guessing fifty hours a week on the average, uh, or make other choices, I made other choices and became a landlord. CRANE: And who&#039 ; s in--where, in the two locations, the one on Winchester Road--- LEVY: Right. CRANE: That&#039 ; s, um, Kentucky Lighting, is it? LEVY: That is Kentucky Lighting. Uh, we sold the building to, uh, Erle Levy and I cannot remember the date. CRANE: And the one on Southland Drive? LEVY: Southland Drive I rented and actually, uh, would have bought the building, but the landlady sold it instead, uh, uh, to the gentleman, Don Hurt, who owns the Old Kentucky Chocolates. And meanwhile, I had, uh, purchased the, uh, old Kroger building across the street, uh, at auction from the library, um, and, uh, at that point, uh, my intention was to move Welgo across the street to that location. Uh, but instead, uh, liquor--the first Liquor Barn opened there. CRANE: I see. Okay. We&#039 ; ve talked about Welgo, but you also have had connections to another first of its kind Jewish-owned stores in Lexington, Mr. Wiggs. LEVY: Correct. CRANE: Could you explain your connection to Mr. Wiggs and describe what kind of retail business it was? LEVY: Uh, Mr. Wiggs opened, I believe, in &#039 ; 63 or &#039 ; 64. Um, cousins of mine from Cleveland, my mom&#039 ; s original home, uh, Eddie Singer, Joe Felber, and, um--gosh--a gentleman named Wiggins, whose first name escapes me, opened Mr. Wiggs, evidently, about five years prior to that and wanted to expand into Lexington. My mom had remarried, uh, Babe Meyers, brother of Emanuel Meyers, who owned Meyers&#039 ; Department Store downtown. Babe, uh, owned an army goods surplus store called Army Goods Headquarters, which was across the street from Meyers&#039 ; on, uh, Main near Broadway. Uh, they approached Ba--Babe and although I don&#039 ; t know what percentage of ownership he had, um, my guess is that he had a minor ownership, uh, uh, piece of the local Mr. Wiggs, which opened first on New Circle Road. Second store was opened on Nicholasville Road, uh, the corner of Nicholasville and Malabu. And third one was, uh, on Alexandria, in the space currently, uh, uh, owned by--or operated by Kroger. CRANE: Hm. Um, as long as we&#039 ; re talking about your-- LEVY: Sure, um-hm. CRANE: --your mom, would you share-- LEVY: Sure. CRANE: --that picture? LEVY: This is a picture of the three sisters, um, and I assume they&#039 ; re at a swimming pool--(laughs)--somewhere. And looking at, uh, their ages, my guess is that they are likely still in Cleveland, Ohio. That&#039 ; s Lillian Rosenberg, the eldest. In the middle is Kay, uh, last name Jacobi. And then my mom, Shirley, um-- CRANE: And they were all three Singers? LEVY: All three were Singers, originally, or, what--Singer or something with a Z, Z-y-n-g-e-r, [sic] I believe. Um, and, uh, they, uh--the picture, I&#039 ; m guessing, was likely taken by their youngest baby brother, Emanuel Singer. CRANE: Okay. Um, how would you describe your parents, your mother, and your father&#039 ; s relationship to Judaism? LEVY: Uh, well, my father, uh, certainly was brought up to be a religious man. Um, I can recall at the synagogue, basically if the rabbi was unavailable, uh, dad would conduct services, um, and, uh, I think, uh, that--well, there is no doubt that was a very important part of his life. Uh, on the Singer side of the family, uh, really no one was religious at all. That probably had greater impact on me than anything. Um, I am, to my knowledge, the only, uh, male in the family not to be bar mitzvah&#039 ; ed. Uh, I rebelled against that. Lou Ann, my ex-wife, by the way, I think was the first, uh, bat mitzvah at the, uh, temple. So, uh, that&#039 ; s an interesting balance. CRANE: According to the Ohavay Zion Synagogue website, your paternal grandfather, Joe Levy, and your great uncle, Sam Herman, your grandmother&#039 ; s Jennie or Yachna&#039 ; s brother, along with other great uncles that you have, including my grandfather Jonah Jacobs, were founding members of the synagogue, which at that time, in the beginning, was an--was orthodox in its practices. In fact, many years later, I remember your father reciting Jonah during the Yom Kippur services. However, I know that you pretty much grew up at the temple. How did this happen? What was Judaism like growing up for you? And how did it change over time? LEVY: Well, originally, uh, of course, my father had me involved in the synagogue, uh, and my earliest memories are sitting through, uh, what at that time appeared to be the seventy-two hour Yom Kippur service--(laughs)--you know? And I would look forward to, uh, escaping to go to--what was it? Will Dunn&#039 ; s Drug Store, I think? (laughs) CRANE: Yes. LEVY: Uh, you know? But, I--I was, uh, it--it just never registered with me, I think, uh, for whatever reason. Uh, I would entertain myself by reading the English sections. Uh, you know, probably the only thing that I ever--that ever stuck with me might have been, uh, a little bit of my Maimonides, uh, the eight degrees of charity. And as a kid, I kept trying to figure out what all that meant. Uh, as an adult, I think I finally--I got it. But, uh, my mom, I think, realized how, uh, really unhappy I was, you know, being brought up like that, and eventually, uh, my brother and I were, uh, allowed to go to Sunday school at the temple, and, uh, that was more to our liking. Uh, uh, I think it was far less, in my opinion, intense as a kid, um, you know? My--again, you know, I--growing up Jewish in old Lexington was very strange. Uh, you know, one of my recollections as a kid probably, I&#039 ; m thinking, second grade at Kenwick, was this little girl who had just moved in the from the mountains. Um, yeah, who I could barely understand. She rememb--she--she kind of reminded me of the guys who had cut tobacco for my grandfather and I always thought they were speaking a foreign language, but, uh, you know, of course, it was, uh, their version of, uh, English--(laughs)--as it were. But one thing I remember was I was, uh, just sitting at my desk and this little girl started running her fingers through my hair-- CRANE: (laughs) LEVY: --and, you know, I looked back and I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t--what are you doing?&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Where are your horns?&quot ; And, you know, she was brought up to think that the Jews were the devil, and--and of course, you know, I explained to her that we had no horns--(laughs)--as far as I know, and I remember, you know, the interesting part was, you know, my parents then explained to me that there are some people who weren&#039 ; t too terribly educated, and, you know, they have some innate prejudices, and this is unfortunately one of them and it&#039 ; s just something to deal with. And, you know, that one always stuck with me, uh, so I don&#039 ; t think it had any impact other than, you know, my current view, and that is, you know, I d--I am absolutely Jewish, uh, but I would say a lot of my Jewish friends consider me Jewish with a hyphen in there. J-E-W, hyphen, I-S-H, uh, you know? But that being said, I&#039 ; m just not a good Jew. CRANE: (laughs) Describe some of your experience at the religious at the temple. LEVY: Oh, gosh. Well, you know, my-- CRANE: I know you had a lot of friends. LEVY: Yeah, well, I--you know, we had lots and lots of friends. Uh, you know, the people, uh, I recall at the temple who I liked, I liked a lot. The rabbis I liked, I liked a lot. You know, Joe Rosenbloom was terrific, uh, gosh. Davis before that, who by the way, uh, I met again, uh, in New York, uh, where he was the rabbi emeritus possibly in White Plains or something, uh, uh, when I was an attending a bar mitzvah of, uh--for one of my friends in later years. Um, I immensely disliked, uh, Rabbi Robert A. Rothman, the rabbi, who I thought, uh, was a poor excuse for a human being. Um, you know, I made judgments and probably bad ones--(laughs)--I suspect when it came to something like that, but, uh, you know, it&#039 ; s just my personal view. CRANE: Sandy, where did you go to high school? LEVY: Uh, I went to Lafayette. CRANE: Um, and as we both know, there were only a handful or two of Jewish students at any of the-- LEVY: Sure. CRANE: --high schools back then. LEVY: Right. CRANE: What impact, if any, did being Jewish have on your school years? You mentioned the one experience when you were at Kenwick-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --um-- LEVY: You know, I really-- CRANE: --what about in high school? LEVY: --I don&#039 ; t--I don&#039 ; t really feel like there was any major impact. Uh, again, you know, I think my friends thought nothing of it, and, uh, and again, I, uh--I don&#039 ; t think there was any--any real discrimination of any sort, uh, at all. And don&#039 ; t forget when I--by the time when I was perhaps a junior and the schools were finally, uh, integrated, uh, at that point, uh, it was fairly clear to me that, uh, you know, most of the animosity was directed--misdirected, uh, toward the poor students who, you know, came in from, uh, I guess, Dunbar and Douglass originally and felt so out of place. CRANE: Hm. Describe how, or if you connected with a larger Jewish community in Lexington, or Louisville, or Cincinnati, such as youth groups, or parties, or socializing in some way. LEVY: Yeah, I w--well, I was involved in, uh, youth group, you know, off in all that, uh, and I went to camp in Zionsville, was it? A couple of times. Um, you know, and those--again, those were--those were nice times. Uh, uh, I don&#039 ; t think it--I don&#039 ; t think it had any major lifelong impact on me, frankly, but, uh, you know, those were just part of the experiences of growing up. CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual? LEVY: Probably as a kid, uh, you know, the, uh, Seder, I suspect, uh, you know, that&#039 ; s when the extended family would get together, uh, you know, when I was young, trying to get the gelt, uh, finding the Afikoman in there, something like that. Uh, you know, but again, those are, uh, primarily childhood memories. Uh, you know, we did not, as a family, continue that tradition, uh, uh, neither Lou Ann or I--nor I had, uh, any great interest in doing that. CRANE: You&#039 ; re connected to so many Jewish families in Lexington and are really a wealth of information. So before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else unique we should know about your family background or your childhood years? LEVY: Hm. (laughs) I really can&#039 ; t think of anything. CRANE: Well, if you do. I know that your first college experience began at Miami of Ohio. LEVY: Right. CRANE: But at some point, you attended the University of Kentucky. Why was Miami of Ohio your initial choice and how did you end up at UK? LEVY: Uh, I guess I chose Miami of Ohio, uh, simply because, uh, it seemed like a better choice for me, uh, you know. I&#039 ; d been dating Lou Ann for a thousand years, it was fairly close to home, um, I didn&#039 ; t want to go to University of Chicago, where my brother attended. Um, you know, I--just because I didn&#039 ; t want that sense of competition. Um, and, uh, essentially, I became homesick, so I transferred to UK the next year. CRANE: Um, how did your studies change from Miami to UK? LEVY: Uh, really, I mean, uh, not much. Uh, I was an English major, uh, and I always enjoyed reading and I always curious, I guess, uh, and really, the only thing that changed, uh, more than anything else was, uh, that, uh, I got married too young and didn&#039 ; t finish. And so I dropped out after my junior year, got married at twenty-one, and, uh, uh, regretted that I never went back because I really thought I intended to do so. CRANE: You can be a Diamond scholar now. LEVY: I doubt it, uh, I hope they have higher standards. (laughs) CRANE: Describe a day in your life as a college student on UK&#039 ; s campus. LEVY: Well, I would, uh, attend my classes. Uh, generally speaking, uh, at night, I, uh, hate to admit it, but I would usually get involved in poker games, uh, which is, uh, how I built my first house by the way. But, uh, we had all night poker games in the basement of the home on Linden Walk, uh, where one of my poker-playing buddies, uh, lived at the time. And I rarely slept, so, uh, I, generally speaking, uh, found it fairly easy to, uh, do--to really complete each and every task and at the same time burn the midnight oil. CRANE: What impact, if any, did being Jewish have on your day-to-day experiences at UK? LEVY: Honestly, I don&#039 ; t think any. I--I chose not to join, uh, the fraternities, and, uh, so consequently, my friends were either friends who I met as a result of, uh, I guess just meeting them in class, or poker games, or you know, some other social aspects, and, uh, but I really didn&#039 ; t attend any Jewish functions that I&#039 ; m aware--that I can recall. CRANE: Um, Hillel? Were you-- LEVY: No. CRANE: Okay. What was the climate on campus for Jews to become members of non-Jewish fraternities when you were there? LEVY: I honestly don&#039 ; t know because I, uh, you know--I just showed no interest, uh, you know. At Miami of Ohio, uh, uh, I think they offered--I think it was a Fiji, Fuji, whatever it&#039 ; s called--(laughs)--you know, the rush thing on me. I just--yeah, I thought those things were silly, so I just didn&#039 ; t do it. CRANE: What was Jewish life in Lexington when you were a student at UK? LEVY: (laughs) I--I wish I could help you, but I--I just don&#039 ; t know. I really wasn&#039 ; t involved. I&#039 ; m sorry. CRANE: That&#039 ; s okay. Um, what was your Jewish life after college? You said you got married when you were twenty-one? LEVY: Right. CRANE: Um, obviously, that&#039 ; s what kept you in Lexington? LEVY: Yep. CRANE: Um, describe your Judaism in your home as a parent. LEVY: Well, uh, originally, we, uh, sent our kids to Sunday school, uh, because the grandparents, uh, really my grand--my father, uh, insisted on it and the kids is--would attend some of the religious functions and so forth, but, uh, as they got older, uh, the kids just, uh, really, again, I suspect because the parents did not guide them in that direction, the kids showed little interest and, uh, by the time I&#039 ; m sure they were teenagers, uh, we no longer attended, uh, either organization. Did I stump you? (laughs) CRANE: No. LEVY: Sorry. CRANE: Um, did you all celebrate holidays, and if so, in the home, what were they like? LEVY: Not really, uh, you know. Uh, when they were young, we celebrated Hanukkah, of course. Uh, we did celebrate the other holidays, uh, you know, when my dad was functional, um, but after--you know, after he became bedridden, uh, you know, all that disappeared. CRANE: Tell us about your involvement and the involvement of your children with the Jewish community outside of the religious school. I mean, um, you said they went for a while and then-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --they quit going. Did they stay connected--um, describe your family as a family unit remaining connected to the Jewish community. LEVY: Well, our friends, our primary--you know, our closest friends, of course, are Jewish. Uh, Lou Ann and I traveled a great deal, uh, with the Winnikers and the Lowenthals, um, you know, Mike and Harriet Ades were our friends, Sarah was--is Jennifer&#039 ; s age. Uh, so, you know, the kids, of course, you know, had friends who were Jewish. They also had a lot of friends primarily from school, uh, uh, with whom they were also close. So I think, again, you know, the parents and, uh, Lou Ann and I, essentially did not, uh, bring them up in a Jewish, uh, background. CRANE: What has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your activities and of your identity as a Jew? LEVY: I unfortunately would say, uh, very little. Um, I, you know--I certainly, you know--I mean, I--I identify and I support Israel, but that being said, uh, this is not something that, uh, I guess, guides my every thought. CRANE: Okay. You grew up in Lexington, and with the exception of going away to college for a bit, you pretty much remained here. Your family, um, and or you have been involved at some level with both the synagogue and the temple, and you&#039 ; re related by blood, or marriage, or connected by business, or friendships to much of the Jewish population here. Um, so tell me, Sandy, how do you think the Jewish community in Lexington has changed over the years? LEVY: Well, certainly, it&#039 ; s grown. Um, that--I think that goes without saying. Uh, as far as how it has grown, I&#039 ; m not even qualified to say because, uh, other than funerals, I suspect, I haven&#039 ; t set foot inside the synagogue in years and possibly that--well, I&#039 ; ll take that back. I--I would have lunch, occasionally, with Marc Kline, who I really liked, uh, you know, just as an outstanding human being, you know, and he ma--he&#039 ; d--you know, he&#039 ; d pitch me all the time--(laughs)--and I told him, &quot ; No, that&#039 ; s not a strike. That&#039 ; s a ball.&quot ; But anyway, uh, I really--I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; m qualified to answer that. CRANE: Okay. Um, what work do you do or did you do that we haven&#039 ; t already talked about? LEVY: Uh, we--businesses? CRANE: Um-hm. LEVY: Oh gosh, um, hm. Well, let&#039 ; s see. I--(background sneezing)--uh, had a--(background sneezing)--had a group of stores, uh, in malls and strip centers, uh, called The Better Half, uh, which, uh, I closed, I guess, when the big department stores, uh, started doing that, uh, piece of the business, uh, uh, a bit better than I did. Uh, that was women&#039 ; s large sized clothing, but, uh, fashions. Uh, you know, in the old days, it was, uh, difficult for, uh, women who couldn&#039 ; t fit into the standard eight to eighteen or the junior sizes to really get anything fashionable, so our first one was in Lexington Mall. And then, uh, I opened one other here in town, and one in Florence Mall, and one in Kenwood in Cincinnati. And then when McAlpin&#039 ; s at the time opened their fashions for larger sized ladies, they put it right outside the entrance to their store, which was, uh, two doors down from my store. So at that point, uh, I was able to sell a couple of locations, close them down, and that was that. Um, I also was involved with two partners, one in New York, one in, uh, well, basically out of San Diego, uh, in buying surplus merchandise from large, uh, primarily department stores. Uh, you know, very, uh, we&#039 ; re talking about substantial, uh, investments, capital investments perhaps in the million-dollar range would have been the maximum we ever had. And basically the three of us, as it were, scout potential, uh, opportunities, and uh, generally speaking, we would then go in for some percentage of the piece. Uh, the person who found the goods could take some percentage for his or her operation, uh, otherwise, we would help sell it out. So I was involved in that for perhaps five years or so. Um, and that was very, very profitable. Um, I, uh--because of my buy-outs of Jos A. Bank overstocks when they were run by Quaker Oats, when Jos A. Banks started franchising, uh, I made the error of becoming a franchisee and, uh, discovered that the reason they were franchising, uh, to my chagrin, was that they were trying to raise capital. And, uh, it was very successful when it opened in town, but when I discovered was that the suits that were ordered were not necessarily filled by sending the new merchandise, but rather if they had excess merchandise that was similar, they were, uh, sending old merchandise here. And, uh, it took about a year and a half before I realized what was happening and that did not end well, so I became an ex-Jos A. Bank franchisee the hard way. Um, what else? Uh, with Stuart Lowenthal, we opened up, uh, at Kroger, an operation called FastCare, which has now become Little Clinic-- CRANE: Wow. LEVY: --um, I was basically the financial guy. Uh, Stuart--it was Stuart&#039 ; s idea and Stuart is the guy who, at age seventy-five, probably works more hours a day than I thought of working in a week. Um, and the theory behind it was a--was a terrific one. Uh, we thought we&#039 ; d have nurse practitioners on staff at all times, a doctor to oversee this. And the pitch to Kroger was, uh, they could sell more prescriptions because nurse practitioners could write prescriptions and they could diagnose, uh, minor--certain minor, uh, ailments. And the problem with the original that I ran into was that it was difficult finding nurse practitioners to staff the kiosk every opening hour. Uh, eventually, after about a year or so, uh, I bailed and stayed on free of charge while Stuart made the transition, and very successfully, uh, turned it out, of course, to be what&#039 ; s now FastCare. I--I&#039 ; m sorry, what&#039 ; s now Little Clinic, uh, that, uh, Kroger will have, I&#039 ; m sure, in all of its major, uh, stores. Um, what else have I done? I don&#039 ; t know. CRANE: You sound like you&#039 ; ve been a very busy man. LEVY: I--yeah, well, you know. Some hits, some misses. But, uh. CRANE: Great. Exciting. LEVY: Yeah. CRANE: Um, looking back, I know that you have certainly expressed a--um, a distance from your family&#039 ; s Jewish background. You&#039 ; ve sort of moved away from that. But I&#039 ; m just wondering if--if you could change anything about your relationship with Judaism, what would it be? LEVY: Well, huh. That--that becomes--that really is--is a difficult question, uh, for me to answer, simply because my world view is, I guess, really has changed over the years. Uh, I--I guess I once regarded religion generally as being something good in that it provided, I think, a--a safe place for people, like-minded people, to gather. And, uh, again, you know, I mean, I will say, for instance, uh, you know, there are parts of Judaism that I like. One would be the standards of ethics and morality, uh, you know, that I--to which I try to adhere. Uh, on the other hand, uh, I look at ritual, uh, especially orthodox and conservative ritual in Judaism, and I tend to question the--the difference between our rituals and the rituals of some of the religions that we now consider to be wacky religions. Uh, everyone has something. Uh, I don&#039 ; t miss that part at all, uh, and--and I certainly feel more comfortable being around people who are Jewish than I do certain people who come from different cultural background. And again, that&#039 ; s because of the way I was raised and I certainly recognize that. Uh, to say I have regrets, I think is--that&#039 ; s a little strong for me, that really is. CRANE: Is there anything else that you would like to share that I haven&#039 ; t already asked you about? LEVY: Uh, gosh. No-- CRANE: Some of your connections, or family background, or-- LEVY: Well, no, I mean, I-- CRANE: --parts of your life that were interesting, or characters in your family that you&#039 ; d like to tell about. LEVY: Well, let&#039 ; s see, characters, certainly, my stepfather was quite a character, uh, Arthur &quot ; Babe&quot ; Meyers. Uh, came from a large family. Uh, you know, the story I also heard was that, uh, they all had vaudeville backgrounds, uh, and I can believe it. Each of the brothers was funnier than the other, uh, I mean, they really were a lively family. Uh, my--my stepfather, of course, being a--well, was a WWII guy, and, uh, he--he used language--(laughs)--that, uh, I suspect, uh, um, would offend most people. Uh, but he could do it in such a charming way, uh, that, uh, I think most people forgave him that. He was certainly quite a character, uh, uh, I think, in fact, in the Herald-Leader, there was an article when--gosh, Dave Greenwald? Is that his name? Opened the deli? CRANE: Um-hm. In Chevy Chase. LEVY: In Chevy Chase. And as I recall, Babe--now, Babe was not religious in any way, and they had a picture of Babe, and Dave Greenwald, and I think Bob Stevens, who was a county judge perhaps at the time. Anyway, and they had them all wearing yarmulkes and there&#039 ; s Babe cutting a salami--(laughs)--so, you know, I mean, he did stunts like that that, again, you know, I think kind of endured him to the community and made my life a lot of fun. CRANE: Okay. Um, Sandy, this has been a pleasure. Um, it&#039 ; s been wonderful, um, chatting with you and I&#039 ; ve learned a lot. LEVY: Well, I&#039 ; m glad you did. (laughs) CRANE: I have. LEVY: My pleasure, Janice. Thank you. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh049_jk017_levy_ohm.xml 2016oh049_jk017_levy_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh049_jk017_levy_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sandy Levy, April 11, 2016 Description An account of the resource Sanford (Sandy) Elliot Levy was born in Lexington, Kentucky. His grandparents, Joe and Jennie Levy were part of a wave of Jewish immigration from a shtetl in present-day Lithuania named Pushelat that was a result of the Bolshevik Revolution. Levy's grandfather, Herman Levy, partially owned a retail clothing store on Upper Street, in Lexington, Kentucky, He also owned farmland in the southern Lexington area where they grew tobacco, raised cattle, and did various other agricultural ventures. Levy's father began the shoe department at Meyers' store in downtown Lexington, Kentucky and eventually became one of the founders of the Welgo Traders in 1951, one of the largest retail clothing stores in Lexington, Kentucky. Levy himself had numerous business ventures throughout his life. Levy's father was very religious and would oftentimes substitute and lead Jewish services for the rabbi in Lexington, Kentucky at Ohavay Zion Synagogue. He reflects on sitting in religious services at the synagogue as a child, attending Sunday school at the Temple, and dealing with anti-Semitism while in elementary school. He wasn't involved in any student organizations while he was a student and his Judaism had little impact on his college life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh049_jk017 Subject The topic of the resource Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Lexington (Ky.) Traditional farming Family farms. Livestock. Family histories. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/b23d3e38b2e84e1be3b4a9ef54c167d6.png ef0efa00a48fd041ffacf12bf935da0c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Annette Mayer Interview Keyword Communities. Community development. Anti-Semitism Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Holidays. OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh048_jk016 Interview with Annette Mayer, March 24, 2016 2016oh048_jk016 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Family histories. Jewish children Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Worship (Judaism) Jews--Identity. College students--Social conditions Greek letter societies. University of Kentucky Judaism. Religion Communities. Community development. Anti-Semitism Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Holidays. Annette Mayer Janice Crane 2016oh048_jk016_mayer_acc001.mp3 1:|32(16)|59(9)|77(20)|97(5)|111(10)|135(13)|174(10)|195(14)|222(3)|247(4)|262(8)|276(6)|296(6)|318(3)|340(1)|360(8)|372(15)|394(14)|423(14)|442(6)|451(14)|468(10)|487(15)|504(11)|523(10)|546(6)|559(8)|578(3)|590(4)|600(11)|609(10)|620(1)|631(8)|643(4)|656(5)|666(3)|683(4)|697(11)|724(6)|737(6)|746(9)|754(11)|768(9)|779(15)|791(3)|804(1)|814(12)|830(1)|847(11)|858(8)|870(14)|879(14)|889(5)|904(11)|919(9) 0 https://oralhistory.uky.edu/spokedbaudio/2016oh048_jk016_mayer_acc001.mp3 Other audio 4 Family history and arrival in Lexington, Kentucky For official purposes, today is March 24th, 2016. Annette Mayer describes the circumstances in which she and her family moved to Lexington, Kentucky. Her father believed that following the attack on Pearl Harbor the United States could be invaded from the southern border so he took a job as a furrier at B.B. Smith and Company in Lexington. She also names her various family members. Austria ; B.B. Smith &amp ; amp Company ; Bertha Schwartz ; Brooklyn (N.Y.) ; Furriers ; Jacob Perlmutter ; Ken Mayer ; Ruth Levin Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), Attack on, 1941 ; World War, 1939-1945 38.040358, -84.49022500000001 17 Main Street, Lexington Kentucky, where B.B. Smith and Company was located. http://www.kyphotoarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Lexington-1938A.jpg Main Street, downtown Lexington, circa summer 1938. 233 Jewish upbringing in Lexington, Kentucky in the early twentieth century How would you describe your parents' relationship to Judaism? Mayer describes her parents' relationship to Judaism and her upbringing as a young Jewish girl in Lexington, Kentucky. Some stories include purchasing kosher meat, celebrating Jewish holidays such as Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and her recollection of attending Hebrew School. She also names some of her Jewish girl friends she had while growing up. B'nai Brith ; Bat mitzvahs ; Betty Marcus ; Cantors ; Conservative Judaism ; Frankfort (Ky.) ; Goller ; Kay Frankel ; Kimball House ; Kosher ; Maxwell Street ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Rabbi Albert Pappenheim ; Rabbi Bernard Schwab ; Rosh Hashanah ; Sue Newman ; Synagogue ; Yom Kippur Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0437891, -84.501984 17 Historic location of Ohavay Zion Synagogue on Maxwell Street in Lexington, Kentucky. This location is now an Italian restaurant named Joe Bologna's. 879 Student life at the University of Kentucky and membership in Phi Sigma Sigma sorority 1950-1954 Okay, after high school you attended the University of Kentucky. What years was this, and what did you study? Mayer graduated from Henry Clay High School in 1949, the last class to graduate mid-year. Mayer began her undergraduate studies at the University of Kentucky in January of 1950. She was inspired to pursue a major in Radio Arts and Television with a minor in Journalism by the founder of KET, Len Press. While in college, Mayer had little social involvement because of her strenuous work schedule at the Ashley Theatre in the Chevy Chase neighborhood in Lexington, Kentucky. She joined the Jewish sorority Phi Sigma Sigma in 1952 because her friend Sue (Newman) Friedman asked her to. The sorority was struggling to find members because of the small number of Jewish women who attended the university. Mayer describes some of the student activities the sorority participated in, including the homecoming parade and socials with the Jewish fraternity Zeta Beta Tau. She also worked one semester as the station manager for the university radio station WUKY. Ashley Theater ; Chevy Chase ; College View Street ; Eminent Domain ; Evelyn Wides ; Helen Goldfarb ; Henry Clay High School ; Hillel ; Kentucky Educational Television (KET) ; Len Press ; Memorial Coliseum ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Sue Friedman ; Sue Newman ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; University of Kentucky 38.0242408, -84.50069189999999 17 Location of KET in Lexington, Kentucky. http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt79kd1qgb7g/data/0244/0244.pdf The Phi Sigma Sigma yearbook page of the 1953 Kentuckian. 1627 Jewish life after college Describe how you continued your, your Jewish life after college. After college, Mayer moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she began working for the television station WLWT as a publicity writer. After about three years, she began working for the United Way which was known at that time as the Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati. Annette's friend Sue was dating her future husband Ted who was working for IBM in Lexington, Kentucky. Ted's roommate was Ken Mayer, Annette's future husband. Mayer discusses raising her children Jewish in Lexington where they each had a bar/bat mitzvah, went to Jewish summer camps, attended Hebrew School and attended Sunday school. Annette talks about the differences between her own Jewish identity and her children's, and her thoughts on Zionism and the state of Israel. Bar mitzvahs ; Ben Goldfarb ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati ; David Ades ; Dayton (Ohio) ; Girl Scouts of America ; Hebrew School ; International Business Machines (IBM) ; Israel ; Ken Mayer ; Sunday school ; Ted Friedman ; Transylvania University (Lexington, Ky.) ; United Way ; WLWT ; Zionism Israel. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 39.1242262, -84.52160989999999 17 WLWT in Cincinnati, Ohio http://media2.wcpo.com/photo/2015/05/07/3-Council%20of%20Social%20Agencies%20and%20Community%20Chest%20logo_1431014198190_17973456_ver1.0.jpg Logo for Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati 2332 Involvement in the Lexington community 1950-present Um, Annette I know that you've been very active in both the Jewish community and the community at large, which is one of the reasons you were chosen for this interview. Mayer has been involved in numerous Lexington Communal Organizations including the Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative and the One World Film Festival. The One World Film Festival has established a strong tradition on Martin Luther King, Jr. Day of showing a powerful film with a presentation each year. She was also a member of an organization called Speak Out Lexington in the 1960s and 1970s where people from the community would come to speak about various issues the community faced. She concludes by discussing how she has always been concerned that the different groups within the Lexington community, including the Jews, rarely go outside of their own communities to interact with the others. Book Buddies ; Brandeis University ; Central Kentucky Council for Peace and Justice ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Jewish Film Center ; Mandela: Long Walk to Freedom (film) ; Nelson Mandela ; One World Film Festival ; Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative ; Pew Foundation ; Raise the Roof ; Sesame Street ; Speak Out Lexington Advisory Committee Communities. ; Community development. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky http://lexfilm.org/ Website for Lexington One World Film Festival interview Annette Mayer describes the circumstances in which she and her family moved to Lexington, Kentucky following the attack on Pearl Harbor. She describes her parents' relationship to Judaism and her upbringing as a young Jewish girl in Lexington, Kentucky. Some stories include purchasing kosher meat, celebrating Jewish holidays such as Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and her recollection of attending Hebrew School. Mayer began her undergraduate studies at the University of Kentucky in January of 1950 and was inspired to pursue a major in Radio Arts and Television with a minor in Journalism by the founder of KET, Len Press. She joined the Jewish sorority Phi Sigma Sigma in 1952. The sorority was struggling to find members because of the small number of Jewish women who attended the university. Mayer describes some of the student activities the sorority participated in, including the homecoming parade and socials with the Jewish fraternity Zeta Beta Tau. After college, Mayer moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she began working for the television station WLWT as a publicity writer. After about three years, she began working for the United Way which was known at that time as the Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati. Mayer has been involved in numerous Lexington Communal Organizations including the Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative and the One World Film Festival. Mayer discusses raising her children Jewish in Lexington. Annette talks about the differences between her own Jewish identity and her children's, and her thoughts on Zionism and the state of Israel. CRANE: OK. For official purposes, today is March 24th, 2016. My name is Janice Crane, and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I&#039 ; m honored to be here today with Annette Perlmutter Mayer. I&#039 ; ve known Annette for many years but have never had an opportunity to hear details of her life and listen to her story, so I&#039 ; m excited to share this time with her and looking forward to our chat. So, Annette, before we get too involved, I have a few general questions-- MAYER: --OK-- CRANE: --uh, informational questions for you. MAYER: OK. CRANE: What was your name at birth? MAYER: Annette Perlmutter. CRANE: OK. Did you have a middle name? MAYER: No. CRANE: OK. MAYER: I didn&#039 ; t have a middle name. I was cheated. CRANE: (laughs) When and where were you born? MAYER: Brooklyn, New York. CRANE: OK. I know your parents are no longer alive, but what were their names, and where were they originally from? MAYER: My mother&#039 ; s name was Bertha Schwartz. My father was Jacob Perlmutter. And they both were born in Austria. CRANE: Oh. Uh, what were your parents&#039 ; occupations? MAYER: Well, my mother was definitely a homemaker. Now, my father was--and you won&#039 ; t believe this--he was a furrier. He made fur coats-- CRANE: --ooh. MAYER: --from skins. And I remember seeing him laying out skins on a great big table, and then sewing them together to make a beautiful fur coat. CRANE: Do you have any of them? MAYER: No. (laughs) CRANE: Just thought I&#039 ; d check. MAYER: I mean, we&#039 ; re talking a long time ago, and you don&#039 ; t have fur now. CRANE: That&#039 ; s true. Uh, what brought your family to Kentucky, and how old were you when you moved here? MAYER: It was 1942, and the United States had been attacked, and we were living in Dallas, Texas at that time, and my father was afraid that we would be--we meaning the United States--would be invaded through the South, and he wanted to get out of Texas. So he looked for a job someplace inner United States, and he found one in Lexington, Kentucky. So that&#039 ; s how we moved here. CRANE: And what was the job he came here for? MAYER: As a furrier. There was a department store here named, uh, B.B. Smith &amp ; Company. This was probably before a lot of people were born. And they had an opening. They had a fur department, and they needed a furrier. CRANE: Hm. MAYER: So he got the job, and that&#039 ; s how we came to Lexington. CRANE: If you have siblings, what are their names and ages relative to you? MAYER: I have a sister who is, uh, five years older than I am. Her name is now Ruth Levin. And then, uh, I have a brother, uh, Jerry, and he is two years older than me, and he lives in Florida, and my sister lives in Vermont. CRANE: And for the record, what was your husband&#039 ; s name? MAYER: Ken Mayer. CRANE: And what are the names and ages of your children and your grandchildren? MAYER: Uh-oh. OK, my daughter, Michelle, is, uh, about forty-seven, and my son, Mike, is forty-five. And I have two grandchildren, Elliott, who&#039 ; s four years old, and Madison, who&#039 ; s going to be one year old pretty soon. CRANE: And this is their home, right? MAYER: This is their home, yes. CRANE: How would you describe your parents&#039 ; relationship to Judaism? MAYER: Oh, um, very close. Uh, I would say we were a mix between Orthodox and Conservative before we moved to Lexington, uh, and then, uh, we were--my father was sort of like a cantor, and he had a great voice. And, uh, he was--I mean, they were fairly religious. And, uh, you know, pra-- we practiced. We were very, uh, you know--we kept kosher, and, uh, very strict about that. CRANE: And what was keeping kosher like in Lexington, Kentucky at that time? MAYER: Tough. Uh, I know that you probably heard about Mr. Goller -- CRANE: --um-hm. MAYER: --and his store, and I vividly remember, uh, when I went to Lexington Junior that I would walk up--it&#039 ; s just a block away from, uh, Mr. Goller&#039 ; s store--I would walk up and get kosher meat there, and I would go with my mother there, and she would go in his backyard and find a chicken, and pick the chicken that she wanted for Shabbos, and, uh, he would slit its throat, and she would sometimes just take it home and pluck it herself, or sometimes she would stay there and pluck it. CRANE: Okay. (laughter) MAYER: Yeah. CRANE: Uh, what was, uh, Judaism in your family like growing up? You said you kept kosher. Um-- MAYER: And we were very strict in observing the s-- the holidays. CRANE: Okay. How did you celebrate them? MAYER: In Texas or here? CRANE: Either one. MAYER: Oh, okay. Well, um, for the major holidays, you know, like Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, uh, you know, very, very strict. In fact, uh, when I first married, and my husband was from New York, and we were living here--uh, you know, of course, at that time we were here in Lexington--uh, I was, uh, so concerned about the high holidays that we used to stay downtown in a hotel so that we could walk to services at what we called the old synagogue, and, um, and I was so--still then I was really religious, and I wouldn&#039 ; t turn on lights on the Sabbath or anything like that, and that&#039 ; s why we stayed in the hotel. CRANE: And did you do this growing up? MAYER: Yes. CRANE: Stay in the hotel? MAYER: Here in, uh-- CRANE: --in Lexingt-- MAYER: --after we were married? CRANE: No, before. MAYER: Before. No, we were living close enough to the synagogue that I could walk-- CRANE: --okay. MAYER: --and, and I would walk to the synagogue. This was before I was married-- CRANE: --right. MAYER: --growing up. CRANE: I know that as an adult you attended the synagogue, but not sure if that&#039 ; s where you spent your youth, or if that&#039 ; s where your parents went. MAYER: No. I mean, oh, yes, they were-- CRANE: --OK. MAYER: --they were at the synagogue, of course. CRANE: Describe your family&#039 ; s in-involvement in the Jewish community, not yours as an adult but yours as a child, or a young adult-- MAYER: --well-- CRANE: --young teenager. MAYER: --unfortunately, my father passed away three years after we moved here, so now we&#039 ; re talking 1945. And it was--you know, those were sort of tough times. And, uh, so, you know, we observed the holidays as best as we could, but always going to the synagogue. CRANE: Okay. Share some of your religious school and Hebrew school experiences, yours-- MAYER: --uh, what-- CRANE: --and how they were different or the same as that of your children. MAYER: I didn&#039 ; t have as much a, uh, attachment to a--what&#039 ; s--what I find different now is that going to, uh, Sunday school is big here in Lexington. I never went to Sunday school in Texas ; it was always Hebrew school. And I remember that we had a bus that used to come and pick me up, take me to Hebrew school, and then bring me back home. But here in Lexington it was different, but I did go, uh, to Hebrew school here in the old--what we call the old synagogue. And, uh, I did not have a bat mitzvah because growing up it was not customary for women to have bat mitzvahs. CRANE: But did you did go to Hebrew school. MAYER: I did go to Hebrew school and learn Hebrew and everything, but-- CRANE: Who was the rabbi when you were in Hebrew school. MAYER: Rabbi Schwab. CRANE: When you were in Hebrew school? MAYER: Uh--Yeah, I think it was Rabbi Schwab. I don&#039 ; t know, it might&#039 ; ve been Rabbi Peppenheimer. CRANE: I think it was-- MAYER: --probably Peppenheimer, and then into Rabbi Schwab. CRANE: OK. Um, describe the relationship you had with other Jewish families and Jewish friends growing up in Lexington. MAYER: I had a couple of close friends growing up in Lexington, and, uh, our relationship with other families was very casual, because, uh, most of the time we were just busy with our own lives. CRANE: OK. Who were some of your friends growing up in Lexington, Jewish friends? MAYER: Uh, Sue Newman-- CRANE: --um-hm. MAYER: --and her husband, Kay Frankel. CRANE: Oh, yeah. MAYER: And, uh, I&#039 ; m--I have a distant relationship with, uh, some family in Frankfort, Kentucky, and, uh, I was very close with one of the, uh, girls who lived in Frankfort, Betty, uh, Betty Marcus. And, um-- CRANE: --did they own a furniture store? MAYER: They owned a furniture store, and--well, actually her--it was her uncle who owned the furniture store, Betty&#039 ; s father owned a jewelry store-- CRANE: --oh. MAYER: --in Frankfort. And she used to come into Lexington quite often. And we had a, uh, BBYO group when I was growing, the B&#039 ; nai Brith young girls organization, and, uh, they were about--there were several of us involved in that. CRANE: And what year was this? MAYER: I knew you were gonna ask me that, and I can&#039 ; t remember. (laughs) But I guess we were all probably about thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, getting ready to, you know, think about going to college. CRANE: Okay. How did you connect with the larger Jewish community? I know that you went to the synagogue, uh, but did you spend time with, uh, some of the children from the temple, or from Cincinnati, or Louisville? MAYER: No, no, I don&#039 ; t recall, uh--Uh, we were very--a very close-knit group here. And of course, uh, at that time growing up, uh, I didn&#039 ; t have access to a car, so we were limited in transportation. So it was very, you know, just centered around the synagogue. CRANE: Lexington has never had what we would call a large Jewish population. In fact, regardless of what public or private school you attended--and you already mentioned, um, Lexington Junior--that being Jewish in Lexington made you a minority. What was it like for you being Jewish in a predominantly Christian environment in Lexington? MAYER: Well, you know, maybe I was too dumb, but I didn&#039 ; t sense any discrimination. And, uh, the only thing that used to bother me were the, uh, holidays in December, when there was a lot of emphasis on Christmas in the schools. And that would kind of bother me, but I never felt like people were looking, uh, strange at me because I didn&#039 ; t celebrate Christmas, and I always made sure to tell them that I didn&#039 ; t celebrate Christmas. But I never felt any real discrimination because of that. CRANE: Did you have any experiences with anti-Semitism then growing up here? MAYER: I didn&#039 ; t--I didn&#039 ; t sense it. Now, maybe it was there and I was just too dumb and didn&#039 ; t recognize it, but it never bothered me. CRANE: I&#039 ; m sure that you&#039 ; ve learned a lot about being Jewish from your family and your friends, but what were the things that you learned that you feel really had a significant impact on your life? MAYER: As far as Judaism-- CRANE: --um-hm. MAYER: --is concerned? Just the fact that I was Jewish, and I felt that this made me different. And also, at times I felt I was smarter, because, you know, I was used to reading a lot, and I think the emphasis of Judaism is education, and looking at the whole world rather than just your immediate surrounding. CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual? MAYER: Uh, probably, you know, the high holidays. CRANE: What do you remember about them? MAYER: Uh, that they were intense, and, um, of course, in the old synagogue, the one on Maxwell Street, uh, you know, there was definitely--because of the rabbis, it was more Orthodox than it is today. Uh, and remember, we&#039 ; re going back quite a few years. And I do remember, you know, that the women sort of sat in one area. The men sat in another area. And then what, what was always interesting to me is I saw people I never saw any other time during the year, which was great, which was great. CRANE: And the women with their hats. MAYER: With their hats. And people did dress. CRANE: Yes. MAYER: &#039 ; Cause I remember, no matter how tough times were, we always got something new for the holidays. And that was special. And that made it special. CRANE: Since you stayed at the Kimball House, did you see the monkeys there during the holidays? MAYER: No--(laughs)--no, I don&#039 ; t remember. I don&#039 ; t remember that at all. CRANE: OK, before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else unique we should know about your family b-background or your childhood years? MAYER: No, I, I don&#039 ; t, I don&#039 ; t think so. CRANE: Or that you&#039 ; d like to share? MAYER: No, not right now, mm-mm. CRANE: OK, after high school you attended the University of Kentucky. What years was this, and what did you study? MAYER: Uh, I entered UK, it was nine--it was January of 1950. I, I was in the last midyear graduating class at Henry Clay High School. We were the last graduating midyear, and we had--actually had formal graduation ceremonies. CRANE: Hm. MAYER: So I don&#039 ; t know how that happened. I guess I skipped something at some point. Um, so I, I started UK in 19--in January of 1950. CRANE: OK. MAYER: And I, I didn&#039 ; t pick a major until about at least two years into, into UK. CRANE: And what was your major? MAYER: My major was--(laughs)--radio arts and television, with a minor in journalism. CRANE: I would expect that from you. MAYER: And I was fortunate enough to have as my advisor the first, uh, really chair of the radio arts television division at UK, uh, Len Press, who founded KET, and he was my advisor, and I majored in what I did because he was so nice to me. So I had no major at that point, and I was taking a couple of the introductory classes. And so he said, &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t you major in this?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; OK.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s how it started. CRANE: Describe a day in your life as a college student. What kinds of things did you do? Where did you go? Where did you live? And what did you do for fun? MAYER: Uh, well, again, uh, times were not the greatest. I went to UK because it was so convenient, and I worked all the time I was a student at UK. And, uh, you&#039 ; re probably--a lot of people don&#039 ; t remember this, but there was a theater in Chevy Chase called the Ashley Theater, and it had just been built. I was a senior at Henry Clay, and I got a job there as the cashier. I was the first cashier for the theater. So I started work in the afternoons, so I arranged all my classes at UK, morning classes. And at that time, we lived in a little house on a street called College View, which is right in back of Memorial Coliseum, but it is a parking lot now. CRANE: Hm. MAYER: There was a street there with these really sweet little houses, and then UK wanted to build Memorial Coliseum, and they took the houses on that street by eminent domain. CRANE: And then where did you move from there? MAYER: Well, by that time I was already getting, uh, ready for, uh--I had graduated college. CRANE: Oh, I see. MAYER: So we&#039 ; re now talking 1954. And I had graduated college, and was looking for a job, and I really wanted to move to a larger city. So I was--I got a job in Cincinnati. CRANE: I see. Well, you were pretty much on campus, then, during your campus years. MAYER: Right. CRANE: You lived at home. MAYER: Right, I lived at home and walked over to UK. And, uh, as I said, I arranged all my classes, they better fit in in the morning, and if not I didn&#039 ; t take &#039 ; em. CRANE: You know, Annette, I remember the Chevy Chase Theater really well growing up on Fontaine, and for a quarter you got in, and for a nickel you got one of those all-day suckers. MAYER: Right, right. CRANE: So-- MAYER: --yes. CRANE: --I remember it quite well. So what did you do for fun? MAYER: You know, I can&#039 ; t remember doing anything for fun. I wasn&#039 ; t able to go to the football games or the basketball games, and I--at that time you used to have passes. You know, the university would issue them. And so I had a lot of people who thought they were my friends because they wanted my, my student tickets, which I gave to people naturally, &#039 ; cause I couldn&#039 ; t use &#039 ; em. I was too busy working. CRANE: It&#039 ; s my understanding that you were a member of the Jewish sorority on campus, Phi Sigma Sigma, which began in 1952? MAYER: Right. CRANE: Typically young ladies go through a rush process as a way for sorority affiliates to recruit new members. Describe the process that you went through to become a member of Phi Sigma Sigma. MAYER: To be honest with you, I don&#039 ; t remember any really strict process. In other words, I was Jewish. They were looking for Jewish girls, and so I joined. And again, my closest friend, Sue Newman, who was--became Sue Friedman--was a member, &#039 ; cause she was a year ahead of me. And so, uh, she said--you know, there was no discussion. &quot ; You, you have to be a member. We need members.&quot ; We were very, very small group, but yet, what we tried to do was really be involved in some of the projects that sororities were involved in at that time. CRANE: Can you describe some of those? MAYER: Well, for example, um, can&#039 ; t remember the occasion, but we, uh--it was gonna be a parade of some sort, and we did a float like everybody else, a huge float. And, um, uh, you know, we entered in anything that we could, limited by our size, and that were--we, were really a small group. But what was really nice is we had a couple of families here in Lexington, Jewish families that were very nice to the sorority. And I don&#039 ; t know if anyone has mentioned, uh, Helen Goldfarb and Evelyn Wides. They were two well-known, uh, Jewish women here in the community. And actually, they sort of were like town mothers for us and helped us out, &#039 ; cause both of the women are now deceased. But, uh, Mrs. Goldfarb&#039 ; s children went to UK, and, um, they--And so she had a real feeling for UK. And then Mrs. Wities had a couple of, of relatives at UK. And so they were very helpful to us, and for the--at some of the, uh--there were about three or four of the girls were, uh, not from Lexington. And so the Wides or the Goldfarbs would have them over on some of the holidays for some meals and, and just to be--get together. CRANE: How were the girls that, um, were not from here, how were they identified or recruited? MAYER: You know, I have no idea how someone knew they were Jewish, or, you know, um--I don&#039 ; t know. I really don&#039 ; t know. But they--we suddenly found them. I&#039 ; m sure there were others who were Jewish that we didn&#039 ; t find, or didn&#039 ; t know about. CRANE: Describe the Jewishness of the sorority, besides that you, you all were Jewish. Um, what kinds of things and activities made the sorority Jewish? MAYER: Other than the fact that we were Jewish, and that kind of fe-- we felt that we had to be strong within ourselves in order to compete with the larger sororities, uh, that were on campus, and so we, we, uh, we were, you know, trying--tried to be together as much as we could, mainly for each other to show that, you know, we had a lot to contribute, even though it may not look like a lot, but at least being together made us feel a little bit stronger in an environment that was not predominantly Jewish. CRANE: Did you all have a house? MAYER: No. CRANE: Or you met at one of--at either the Goldfarbs&#039 ; or the--? MAYER: Right, or in, you know, someplace on UK campus. CRANE: What were some of the other members, um, besides Sue--uh, where were they from, and what kind of relationships did you have with them? MAYER: Well, I know there was one girl, uh, her name was Judy Sonnabend, and she was from New Jersey, and, um, I guess the others were probably, um, here, you know, in Lexington. They were--and I can&#039 ; t remember--there was another girl, and I--now I can&#039 ; t remember her name, who was also from up East. And then other--I think the rest of us probably were from Kentucky. CRANE: About how many of you were there? MAYER: Yeah, I&#039 ; m thinking in terms of probably either nine or ten, we were always very small. CRANE: How did Phi Sigma Sigma interact with the other Greek organizations at UK, especially the Jewish fraternity, ZBT, that was on campus at that time? MAYER: They were very--ZBT was very supportive of our group, and occasionally, I think, we got some help from them. Like, for example, I remember building the float. I think they came out wherever--I can&#039 ; t now remember where we have it, but they came out, some of the guys, and helped us. And then, of course, they did have a house, and, um, I think once or twice we were over there, you know, for a social of some sort. CRANE: Someone, um, spoke of ZBT inviting a member of Phi Sigma Sigma over on Shabbat to light the candles. Do you recall any of that? MAYER: No, I don&#039 ; t, but it sounds-- CRANE: --it sounds sweet. (laughs) MAYER: It sounds very sweet. Very sweet. CRANE: I thought so. Um, describe your experiences with other Jewish or non-Jewish organizations on campus. Was there a Hillel at the time, and what was your involvement with Hillel? MAYER: To be honest with you, I don&#039 ; t remember a Hillel. I&#039 ; m sure there was, but, again, I worked, uh, you know, every afternoon and a lot of evenings. And the only real interaction I had with other students is I--there was one semester that I served as the station manager for the, uh, radio station at UK, WUKY, and, uh, so I was on campus a lot because of that. And the only reason I did that was because I got free tuition that semester for serving as the station manager of the station, which at that time was a lot. I mean, not a lot of money in terms of money today, but at that time it was a lot of money. CRANE: How did you feel about affiliating with a Jewish sorority, or participating in other Jewish campus organizations which, I guess, there weren&#039 ; t any other ones? MAYER: There weren&#039 ; t any, that I know, and I don&#039 ; t remember a Hillel-- CRANE: --OK. MAYER: --uh, at all. There might&#039 ; ve been. CRANE: And how did you feel about being a member of Phi Sigma Sigma? MAYER: To be honest with you--(laughs)--I did it because Sue wanted me to. CRANE: You were a good friend, yeah. MAYER: You know, she, uh--And, you know, I felt like we needed represent--representation on the campus, and what little I could do--and mainly because, you know, come one o&#039 ; clock I would leave and go to the theater and work, because I was working my way through school. CRANE: Did your experience, um, with the sorority or your Jewish friends, how did that impact your Jewish identity, um, dating, marriage, how you lived your adult life? MAYER: Uh, I don&#039 ; t think there was any real connection. I mean, whatever connections I made with other Jewish--you know, I, I dated some Jewish boys on campus. You know, I don&#039 ; t even think they were members of ZBT. I think they were just maybe people that were in my classes that I got to know one way or the other. I didn&#039 ; t do much socially, &#039 ; cause I had no--I didn&#039 ; t have time for it. CRANE: Describe how you continued your, your Jewish life after college. MAYER: My Jewish life after college. Well, at that time, uh, after college, I moved away to Cincinnati where, uh, again, I was trying to establish myself, because I was alone. I was, you know, on my own and, uh--But at that time, Sue was also--was in Dayton, working for the Girl Scouts, so we would get together. She had a car, so she would come down to Cincinnati, and we would do things every once in a while together, which was really nice. CRANE: Did you have a job in Cincinnati? MAYER: Yes. CRANE: What was it? MAYER: I worked--my job--first job out of college was with, uh, WLWT, which was a television station in Cincinnati. And I worked for them as a publicity writer. And then after, uh, I think about three years, I went over to--and I worked for the United Way, or rather at that time it was called the Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati. And again, I did publicity writing for them. CRANE: I know that you raised your children in Lexington, um, so at some point you came back to Lexington. When was that, and how did you get back here? MAYER: I got back here because, um--let&#039 ; s see, how can--how can I put this so it--so we don&#039 ; t go into a great, big, long story? Uh, at that time, Sue was coming back to Lexington, and, of course, my mother was living here, so I was coming back, you know, every two, three weeks to spend a weekend with her, &#039 ; cause she was alone. My brother had married, and my sister had married, and they were in Florida or in Vermont. And, um, so Sue was coming back quite often, and she started dating this guy who was working for IBM called Ted Friedman. And Ted had a roommate, and his roommate was Ken Mayer. CRANE: I had no idea. That&#039 ; s interesting. MAYER: So they--and so Ted was dating Sue, and Sue said, &quot ; Well, I got this friend who lives--who&#039 ; s in Cincinnati right now, uh, Annette Perlmutter.&quot ; So I would come down, and we would double date. And this was nineteen--about 1957, &#039 ; 58. And Ken was here because, uh--(clears throat)--excuse me--his mother grew up in Frankfort, and she was a Marcus, the Marcus family. And she had married and moved to New York, where Ken&#039 ; s father, uh, was at that time living. And so, um, Ken needed--at that time Ken was a CPA, and un-until you could get your license you had to work for two years with another CPA in order to sit for the CPA exam. So he came down, and he worked for Ben Goldfarb, Helen Goldfarb&#039 ; s husband, who was a CPA and had his own little firm. So that, because of Ken&#039 ; s family connections in Frankfort, he came down to Lexington, and that&#039 ; s how we met. CRANE: I see. Describe your children&#039 ; s experience, and what supports and challenges you were faced with in raising your, your children Jewish in Lex--here. MAYER: Well, the, the main thing was that, you know, when the kids got old enough to go to school, or to have, you know, friends come over, and, um, you know, they, they went to Hebrew school, they went to Sunday school, uh, like the kids do now, and, uh, grew up knowing that, you know, very much so, that they--you know, Mike had his bar mitzvah here, and, uh, Michelle couldn&#039 ; t really decide whether she wanted a bat mitzvah or not, and she did decide she wanted a bat mitzvah, and so we had a bat mitzvah for her. But she was going to Hebrew school all along, and Mike was going to Hebrew school, and they both were going to Sunday school at that time. And there was a very strong group of girls for Michelle in her age group, and so she was very close with a lot--her--a lot of her friends were Jewish friends. There weren&#039 ; t as many boys Mike&#039 ; s age when he was growing up. Well, he had one or two close friends, David Ades and a few others, but there weren&#039 ; t as many boys as there were girls. And unfortunately, at that time, there wasn&#039 ; t very much interaction with the kids at the temple. CRANE: Tell me about your involvement in the Jewish community as an adult. MAYER: Um, other than--you know, what involvement I have had has been connected with the synagogue, uh, but, uh, uh, because of, of the kind of work that I do when I first came back, I was--I started working for Transylvania University, and I got very involved with the academic side of Transylvania, as well as involved with the student organizations at Transy. So I spent a lot of time with them. At one time I was advisor to their student publications, and over the years, because I spent--I, I worked with them for so long, I spent time in various different departments doing different things. CRANE: How does your relationship with Judaism and your practices compare to that of your children&#039 ; s now? MAYER: I think my children probably are--were more involved. Um, for example, Michelle went on year-course to Israel for a year, and, uh, she went to, uh, camp, uh, uh not tel yehuda. Um, well, she went to, to Jewish camps, uh, quite often, during the summers, and, um, more so than Mike. Mike, uh, was more involved in sports and in, um, computers. In other words, he went to a couple, uh, high-level computer camps when he was in high school, because of his interests. And, um, and so the kids were always involved in something, but--and it&#039 ; s because of them I would be involved in some things. CRANE: I see. How has your Judaism and your practices changed over the years? MAYER: I have--to be honest, I&#039 ; ve become more lax. In other words--(laughs)--I don&#039 ; t walk to shul on the high holidays. Uh, but I do, you know, of course, observe them, and, uh, encourage--have always encouraged my kids to observe them, which they do. CRANE: What has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your activities, and of your identity as a Jew? MAYER: It&#039 ; s probably not as strong as some other people&#039 ; s. Uh, I think I would best be classified as middle in the road. Um, I, to be honest, I don&#039 ; t see Israel as the all end of everything. Uh, if you really read up on what has been going on, is going on, and probably will continue to be going on, there are some things that you would not--that I don&#039 ; t agree with. I guess you&#039 ; d say I&#039 ; m a little bit more liberal, and, uh, over the years, you know, I, I have tried to keep myself aware of what&#039 ; s going on, but, uh, uh, you&#039 ; re not gonna see me on a street corner holding up a sign saying &quot ; Israel Forever.&quot ; But I do believe in, in, you know, this feelings of Israel, and I certainly support it through contributions, but I&#039 ; m not gonna be sitting there saying everything that Israel does is right. CRANE: OK. Uh, you&#039 ; ve been a part of the Lexington Jewish scene for many years. How, how do you see that things have changed within the Lexington Jewish community since you&#039 ; ve been here? Um, for example, the relationship between the synagogue and the temple, um, has the population changed, um-- MAYER: --well-- CRANE: --Jewish organizations, such as Hadassah, B&#039 ; nai B&#039 ; rith, or the Federation? How do you see those changes over the years? MAYER: Well, certainly they become more open to each other. I mean, there were probably many years that people in the temple didn&#039 ; t speak to the people in the synagogue, and vice versa. And I, I think it&#039 ; s great that there seems to be more interest in each other&#039 ; s activities and ideas, and willing to, you know, be, uh, compassionate with each other. I mean, there are some people over the years that were very strongly opposed to any kind of interaction, and now there seems to be some real, uh, cordial relationships, which I think is great. Uh, if, if there&#039 ; s anything that disturbs me, it is--I don&#039 ; t see the Jewish community--and some people aren&#039 ; t gonna like this, if they hear it--(laughs)--uh, I don&#039 ; t see the Jewish community as really becoming--being a part of the Lexington community. And that&#039 ; s what disturbs me from time to time. I-- CRANE: --can you explain that a little bit now? MAYER: OK, I go around to different organizations, and I&#039 ; m members--and I&#039 ; m members of different organizations. And you&#039 ; ve heard the saying of--for the African Americans in breaking the ceiling, or for women, breaking the glass ceiling. Well, in some groups, I&#039 ; m the only Jewish person involved, and to me they&#039 ; re worthwhile groups that do things for Lexington. And I would like to see more Jewish people involved in some of the things that will continue to make Lexington a growing community, an open community, and, um, and help this community in many ways. CRANE: What are some of those groups that you&#039 ; re speaking of? MAYER: Uh, that I would rather not say right now. CRANE: OK, that&#039 ; s fine. MAYER: OK. CRANE: Um-- MAYER: --but that, that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s--and that&#039 ; s my personal feeling, OK? CRANE: That&#039 ; s what all this is about. MAYER: OK. CRANE: Um, and then I know that you&#039 ; ve been very active in both the Jewish community and the community at large, which is one of the reasons you were chosen for this interview. Um, you spent a great deal of your adult life both volunteering and working in varying degrees in what some might call political and social activism. If you could share some of your leadership and activist roles in the community over the years, both Jewish and non-Jewish--for example, your work with the Central Ken--Kentucky Council for Peace and Justice, uh, I know that you were on the Pew Civic Leadership Initiative, um, the Speak Out Lexington Advisory Committee. I know that you&#039 ; ve been really active with Book Buddies and Irving County government, and, of course, your present leadership role with the One World Film Festival. If you could just speak a little bit about those and your involvement. MAYER: Um, where should I start? Well, actually, the, um, the Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative was something that happened about twenty, twenty-five years ago, and the whole idea behind that was to help people in the community develop into civic entrepreneurs, and it was a great program, and the City had received a grant from the Pew Foundation for this program, and they picked, I think, about ten cities in the United States for this program. And I was on one of the local committees. And from that, after the grant dried up, we started, uh, just a small group. We had, um--there was this incredibly brilliant, uh, man who was a native of India, who was a PhD MD at UK, and he had the idea that through film we can help educate people about different cultures. And from that we started the One World Film Festival, and it&#039 ; s now in its eighteenth year of bringing cultural films to the community and showing them without cost. And that has involved getting, uh, organizations and businesses to contribute money so that we can continue to do that without charging people. And, uh, it has grown so that, uh, we can--for example, we show a film on, uh--as part of the City&#039 ; s celebration of Martin Luther King Day. And so we provide a film appropriate for the day, and show it in the afternoon on MLK Day to the community free of charge. And we have been averaging close to six hundred for every film showing on MLK Day. And this last, um--this last MLK Day, we showed the film Mandela: Long Walk to Freedom, and I had the--a professor at UK, a professor of history, whose specialty is Africa, and he compared Nelson Mandela with Martin Luther King, the comparison of the two men. And he did an excellent job, and we had that before the film showing, for people to try to understand the connection that you could see between Nelson Mandela in his later life, when he became President of South Africa, with what Martin Luther King was trying to accomplish here in the United States. And so we bring in cultural films. And then I&#039 ; ve also been supportive of a number of, of candidates running for political office, because I do think the ballot box is where it all starts. And, uh, you know, sometimes successful, sometimes not, but it&#039 ; s very important. CRANE: And in 2016, the ballot box is-- MAYER: Kinda closed. (laughs) CRANE: Quite a challenge. (laughs) Um, address Speak Out Lexington a little bit. MAYER: Speak Out Lexington is, uh--we had various topics, and we tried to involve people that were not involved in anything else to come say, where we&#039 ; d have these, like, forums, and have people express their opinion about certain issues in the community, and how to bring people together. And, again, this was in the &#039 ; 60s and, and &#039 ; 70s. And the important thing we felt was trying to involve people who were not involved in anything. And, you know, there are some really bright people in this community. There are times you wish you could kick some other people out and get these other people to get involved and do things, because they are so intelligent, so educated, and, and this is really--Lexington is a very highly educated community, and what UK brings in in terms of their faculty is just unbelievable. If people on the outside take a look at what, what UK has, I think you would be amazed. CRANE: Can you look at any of these positions that you&#039 ; ve been in in the community, um, and your involvement and see if how you were raised, um, as a Jew had any kind of impact on your participation in these groups? MAYER: Probably, because I think from our heritage that we try to, of course, always do a mitzvah, and there are so many groups in this community that need a helping hand, that it&#039 ; s really very easy to get involved in an organization that is out there trying to help bridge the gap between the various segments of the community. And Lexington is still a kind of divided community, and now with so many people moving into the--coming into Lexington who are not natives of the United States, this is--you know, right now, uh, it&#039 ; s my understanding that there are about ninety different languages spoken in the public schools. And so that just shows you how many different groups Lexington ha--is supporting. And many--and these people need the helping hand. And also, uh, because Lexington has been a small community, there are a lot of people that don&#039 ; t really realize how open this community is, and how many people need a little helping hand. CRANE: What do you mean by a &quot ; divided community&quot ; ? MAYER: There are a lot of people who--and I say--I use the phrase of they don&#039 ; t cross Main Street, but--(laughs)--you know, th-they are so involved, I guess, with their own ethnic group, and some of them realize that, that this is a welcoming community. Others don&#039 ; t realize that. And so you&#039 ; re always working with groups one way or the other, and when it doesn&#039 ; t work, that you don&#039 ; t get the group involved that you want to get the group involved, uh, it&#039 ; s because you feel like they don&#039 ; t feel like they&#039 ; re welcome. And, of course, there&#039 ; s great, uh, inequality as far as, uh, finances in this community. And, uh, you know, you pick up the paper, and you see where someone is having, uh, a dinner or a fundraiser, and the price tag is at $125, $150 for a dinner or something like that, and then you wonder if they would just take that money and really help somebody, it would be so much better. I mean, the people attending a fundraiser for the most part, they don&#039 ; t need the food. And, um, it would be nice if some of that was directed where there is a real need in our community. CRANE: Where do you see the need? MAYER: Uh, with people who, who are just low income. And low income starts, you know--is the start of why we have so many problems with young people who either drop out of school or don&#039 ; t have the advantage that s-some other kids have, and afterschool programming, to help them really become better citizens and be productive citizens. CRANE: I&#039 ; m just curious: of all the films that you&#039 ; ve, um, that you&#039 ; ve shown in your O-One World Film Festival, what was your favorite? Or do you have a favorite? MAYER: It--there are so many great films out there that, that we have brought in, and, um, I--you know, I really--it&#039 ; s so hard. I mean, I&#039 ; ve, I&#039 ; ve seen about 125 films, and, uh, I think-- CRANE: --or any that really touch your heart? MAYER: I can&#039 ; t now remember the exact title, but it was a Sesame Street film, and what it was at that time--and this was at least probably ten years ago that we showed this film, where the production people from Sesame Street went around the world and did a Sesame Street production in certain foreign countries, with the native people, and it was fabulous. CRANE: Wow. MAYER: It was just unbelievable. CRANE: Looking back on that, what, if anything would you change about your relationship with Judaism? MAYER: I can&#039 ; t think of anything right now. I, I know I probably should be more involved in Jewish activities, but I feel like, you know, some of my really close friends are not Jewish, and, as I say, when I go and I work with some of the organizations, and I&#039 ; m the only Jewish person, and I try real hard, if I accept a position of leadership in, in an organization, to do the very best job I can, mainly because they--everybody knows I&#039 ; m Jewish. I&#039 ; ve never, you know, uh, put it under the covers or anything like that, and I want people to know that, gosh, just because--you know, there&#039 ; s no difference, even though I might be--religion-wise I might be Jewish, I still can contribute to anything I say I want to help with. CRANE: Why do you feel, um, that there&#039 ; s not enough involvement in Lexington community at large activities, uh, from the Jewish community? MAYER: Well, because, as I say, I have been involved in a number of things, and I&#039 ; ve always been the only Jewish person. Is that-- CRANE: No, I understand that. I mean, why do you think that&#039 ; s so? Why are people not en-engaging in these activities? MAYER: Maybe because, uh, again, that they are so involved in, uh, the synagogue, or the temple. And even though I don&#039 ; t know everybody who&#039 ; s Jewish, um, I, I just, you know, see people. For example, um, when we show what we call a, quote, Jewish film as part of the One World Film Festival, we&#039 ; re not showing it because it&#039 ; s a Jewish film. We&#039 ; re showing it because we hope that we can explain or enlighten, uh, some members of our Jewish community, and as well as the non-Jewish community, some of the things maybe J--uh, Jewish people have had to face over the years, or what some of their cultures--uh, something about their culture. And that&#039 ; s the whole point of the films. I mean, uh, we just finished our 2016 series. One of the films that we showed, uh, was entitled Raise the Roof. And, uh, actually we got it from the Jewish Film, uh, Center at Brandeis University. And, uh, and it was about the reconstruction of a very famous synagogue that was destroyed by the Nazis in Poland. And it took the group that was, uh, doing the reconstruction work, uh, almost ten years to develop it. So we brought it in, and, um, I spoke with the gentleman here in Lexington who is President of the Kentucky Society of Architects, and asked him would he introduce the film, and he said he would. And, of course, he&#039 ; s not Jewish, but he was looking at the film, and I was looking at him, to provide, uh, the way for people to understand what the people who developed--who reconstructed this, uh, project, who worked on it, why, why they were doing it, in addition to understanding, uh, what the synagogue meant to the people in Poland after it was--when it was destroyed by the Nazis, that he could explain that, in addition to what they did to develop it. And we had about 150 people to see the film, and there were a tremendous number of non-Jews who came, which is exactly what we are striving for. And it had nothing really as a--on a personal level, but yet, on a international level, to see what some people--and the people who reconstructed it primarily were not Jewish. CRANE: Annette, clearly you have done some great work in our community, and we all thank you. MAYER: Oh, it&#039 ; s life. CRANE: Is there anything else, um, that you would like to share that I haven&#039 ; t already asked you about that you feel is important? MAYER: Well, I just wish people would get more involved in things. I mean, this is a great city, and it has a lot to offer. CRANE: Can you recommend a few, um, places? MAYER: You know, um, again, because I guess my background in journalism and, uh, you know, uh, from the sidelines television--and, of course, my daughter is very involved in, in television, and, you know, she works for ABC News. CRANE: Oh. MAYER: And, um, a-again, behind the scenes, because she&#039 ; s the stage manager for World News Tonight for ABC. And, um, I just wish people would maybe read more and think more about the community, and, and what&#039 ; s going on. And, uh, especially now, this year, I don&#039 ; t know how anyone can say to people like you and me, &quot ; Oh, I don&#039 ; t want to pay any attention to that.&quot ; But so much of it--of what is going on is going to affect you and me, and everybody else. CRANE: That is true, Annette. MAYER: And it worries me. CRANE: Well, I thank you very much-- MAYER: --thank you. CRANE: --for this interview. Thank you. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. audio Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh048_jk016_mayer_ohm.xml 2016oh048_jk016_mayer_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh048_jk016_mayer_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Annette Mayer, March 24, 2016 Description An account of the resource Annette Mayer describes the circumstances in which she and her family moved to Lexington, Kentucky following the attack on Pearl Harbor. She describes her parents' relationship to Judaism and her upbringing as a young Jewish girl in Lexington, Kentucky. Some stories include purchasing kosher meat, celebrating Jewish holidays such as Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and her recollection of attending Hebrew School. Mayer began her undergraduate studies at the University of Kentucky in January of 1950 and was inspired to pursue a major in Radio Arts and Television with a minor in Journalism by the founder of KET, Len Press. She joined the Jewish sorority Phi Sigma Sigma in 1952. The sorority was struggling to find members because of the small number of Jewish women who attended the university. Mayer describes some of the student activities the sorority participated in, including the homecoming parade and socials with the Jewish fraternity Zeta Beta Tau. After college, Mayer moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she began working for the television station WLWT as a publicity writer. After about three years, she began working for the United Way which was known at that time as the Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati. Mayer has been involved in numerous Lexington Communal Organizations including the Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative and the One World Film Festival. Mayer discusses raising her children Jewish in Lexington. Annette talks about the differences between her own Jewish identity and her children's, and her thoughts on Zionism and the state of Israel. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh048_jk016 Subject The topic of the resource Family histories. Jewish children Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Worship (Judaism) Jews--Identity. College students--Social conditions Greek letter societies. University of Kentucky Judaism. Religion Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/15a173d2f477948f70b4ff454278afad.jpeg 2a2b464340d103baf957df8358f16c0e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Wides Interview Keyword Alpha Epsilon Pi (AEPi) Wides Scrap Metals Family histories. Jewish children College environment Greek letter societies. College students--Religious life OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh047_jk015 Interview with Mark Wides, March 18, 2016 2016oh047_jk015_wides jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Discrimination. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Jews--Identity. University of Kentucky Alpha Epsilon Pi (AEPi) Wides Scrap Metals Family histories. Jewish children College environment Greek letter societies. College students--Religious life Mark Wides Janice Crane 1:|23(4)|56(1)|80(5)|101(2)|122(14)|141(15)|154(13)|161(14)|179(7)|193(5)|202(2)|209(8)|217(12)|250(8)|259(5)|269(14)|278(5)|290(13)|312(13)|332(8)|340(10)|358(4)|393(6)|401(10)|410(13)|435(5)|451(5)|460(6)|480(4)|494(2)|512(1)|521(5)|539(4)|555(5)|567(13)|579(3)|602(11)|611(9)|626(2)|658(10)|667(9)|683(11)|695(2)|705(4)|723(5)|738(8)|759(6)|773(8)|782(6)|798(4)|815(11)|835(11)|856(1)|877(9)|901(16)|915(11)|932(3)|951(2)|969(3)|979(13)|988(15)|1004(12)|1017(5)|1026(15)|1053(1)|1065(9)|1072(13)|1081(14)|1094(10)|1103(9)|1120(10)|1130(9)|1140(16)|1149(12)|1158(8)|1168(11)|1179(5)|1187(8)|1195(6)|1205(11) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253325716&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family history For official purposes, today is March 18th, 2016. Wides describes his family history and relations in Kentucky. He also describes his relations to other Jewish families, including the Ades, the Micklers, and the Cohens. Alison Kinningham ; Alison Michelle Wides ; Avery Madison ; Bella Jane Kinningham ; Betsy Wides ; Betty Claire Mickler ; Brandom Michael Wides ; Bristol Kate Wides ; Brittany Wides ; David Ades ; Family history ; Family relations ; Harry Cohen ; John Kinningham ; Justin Alan Wides ; Laura Wides ; Lily Ades ; Lily Claire Kinningham ; Mike Ades ; Norman Aaron Wides ; Robert Cohen ; William Joseph Kinningham ; Yvonne Fister Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 539 History of Wides Scrap Metals What were your parents' occupations? Wides provides a history of the Wides Scrap Metals company, established in 1946 after his father returned from World War II. He got a loan from his grandmother and opened the business with his brother, Ed Wides. He details how the business competed with larger firms by purchasing from steel centers and eventually became a steel and miscellaneous building supply company. Wides also discusses his relationship to the Skuller and Cohen families, and mentions the newly renovated Skuller clock on Main Street. Baker and Wides ; Baker family ; Ben Norris ; Building businesses ; Contracting ; Edward Joseph Wides ; Family history ; Harry Gordon ; Harry Gordon Steel ; Jewish businesses ; Morris Baker ; Morris Wides ; Mort Norris ; Scrap metal ; Skuller ; Skuller's Jewelry Store ; Steel service centers ; Wides Scrap Metals ; World War II Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.045, -84.473 17 Location of Wides Scrap Metal at 700 E 7th St, Lexington, Kentucky 40505. http://www.kentucky.com/news/article43939164.html Photo album from the Lexington Herald Leader detailing the restoration of the Skuller's clock in downtown Lexington. 1367 Growing up Jewish in Lexington, Kentucky in the 1950s and 1960s Okay, what was your Judaism in your family like growing up? How did Jewishness figure into your childhood and what traditions did you follow? Wides describes his experience growing up Jewish, including his connections to the larger Jewish community through summer camps in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and New York. Although he used to be involved with Temple Adath Israel, including teaching Sunday school, he is not as active anymore. He remembers the holidays with his family and celebrating the holidays with his Gentile friends. Bar mitzvahs ; Bill Shraberg ; Education ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; Henry Clay High School (Lexington, Ky.) ; Integration ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish religion ; Jewish tradition ; Membership ; North American Federation of Temple Youth (NFTY) ; Summer camps ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Youth organizations Childhood ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 http://www.nfty.org/about/history/ History of the North American Federation of Temple Youth (NFTY) 2186 Photographs from Wides Scrap Metals Before we get into, um, your college life, can we talk about the pictures you brought? Wides shares some photos from the original Wides Scrap Metal company. He discusses the employment of George Jackson, an African-American and the first person they hired in 1946. Wides also talks about the process of collecting and processing scrap metal. Building businesses ; George Jackson ; Jewish businesses ; Photographs ; Processing ; Railroad ; Relations with African Americans ; Scrap metal ; Steel ; Wides Material ; Wides Scrap Metals Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.041, -84.467 17 Former location of the first building owned by Wides Scrap Metal at 960 Winchester Rd, Lexington, Kentucky. 2357 College life at the University of Kentucky in the mid-1960s I know that you graduated high school in June of 1966, and therefore probably started college that following fall. Wides describes his time as a student in the mid-1960s at the University of Kentucky in the school of architecture. He also shares his experience as a swimmer in high school and college and the establishment of the first dedicated swim space for the Greater Lexington Aquatic Club (now Kentucky Aquatics) which is housed at the Lancaster Aquatic Center at the University of Kentucky. Architecture ; Colleges ; Education ; Greater Lexington Aquatic Club ; Greater Lexington Swim Association ; Housing ; Lexington history ; Libraries ; Residence ; Sports ; Swimming College environment ; College facilities. ; College students--Social conditions ; University of Kentucky ; University of Kentucky. College of Architecture 38.038, -84.550 17 Parkside (formerly Cross Keys YWCA), 1060 Cross Keys Rd, Lexington, Kentucky 40504. http://www.kentucky.com/news/business/article44152251.html Article from the Lexington Herald Leader from 2012 detailing the history of the Cross Points area and the current development project taking place. 2982 Greek life and the establishment of Alpha Epsilon Pi at the University of Kentucky in 1972 Mark, it was my understanding that while you were at the University of Kentucky you were involved to some degree in the establishment or an attempted establishment of the Jewish fraternity AEPi. Wides describes his experience as a Jew at the University of Kentucky during the turbulent era of the 1970s, and his role in the establishment of the Jewish fraternity Alpha Epsilon Pi. 1970s ; Alpha Epsilon Pi (AEPi) (University of Kentucky) ; Community involvement ; Education ; Fraternity ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; College environment ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Discrimination. ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 17 http://www.aepi.org/about-aepi/history-of-alpha-epsilon-pi/ History of the Alpha Epsilon Pi fraternity. 3849 Jewish life, community involvement, and negative family attitudes towards intermarriage You've talked a little bit about your Jewish life after college, um, and why you stayed in Lexington in order to continue working, and that your wife's family is, obviously, from here as well. Wides describes his life as a Jew in Lexington, his involvement in the Jewish community which included a tenure on the board of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, and his children's relationship to Judaism. Although the Lexington community was relatively open to the Jewish community, Wides describes the range of his family's attitudes, from delight to hostile, towards his marriage to his wife, who is not Jewish. Bill Leffler ; Child-rearing ; Civic involvement ; Community involvement ; Family life ; Family values ; Interfaith dating ; Intermarriage ; Israel ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Leadership ; Zionism Families. ; Interfaith marriage. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 4357 Growing acceptance in the Lexington community and Jewish values in business How have things changed in Lexington, um, since you've been here, as far as the Jewish community? Or do you see the changes? Wides describes how the Lexington community has become more accepting of the Jewish community, particularly in business. He also explains how Jewish values employed in Jewish businesses, such as compassion, a strong work ethic, and a balance between work and family, has permeated to non-Jewish businesses. Business ethics ; Child-rearing ; Cultural acceptance ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Wides Scrap Metals Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/impactjewish.html &quot ; The Impact of Jewish Values on Marketing and Business Practices&quot ; by Hershey H. Friedman, PhD, professor of Business and Marketing at the City University of New York. interview Wides describes his family history and relations in Kentucky. He provides a history of the Wides Scrap Metals company, established in 1946 after his father returned from World War II. He got a loan from his grandmother and opened the business with his brother, Ed Wides. He shares some photos from the original Wides Scrap Metal company, and talks about the process of collecting and processing scrap metal. Wides describes his experience growing up Jewish, including his connections to the larger Jewish community through summer camps in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and New York. Although he used to be involved with Temple Adath Israel, including teaching Sunday school, he is not as active anymore. He remembers the holidays with his family and celebrating the holidays with his Gentile friends. Wides describes his experience as a Jew at the University of Kentucky during the turbulent era of the 1970s, and his role in the establishment of the Jewish fraternity Alpha Epsilon Pi. Wides describes his life as a Jew in Lexington, his involvement in the Jewish community which included a tenure on the board of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, and his children's relationship to Judaism. Although the Lexington community was relatively open to the Jewish community, Wides describes the range of his family's attitudes, from delight to hostile, towards his marriage to his wife, who is not Jewish. Wides describes how the Lexington community has become more accepting of the Jewish community, particularly in business. He also explains how Jewish values employed in Jewish businesses, such as compassion, a strong work ethic, and a balance between work and family, has permeated to non-Jewish businesses. CRANE: For official purposes, today is March 18th, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane. And I&#039 ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky oral history project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I&#039 ; m honored to be here today with Mark Wides. Mark and I were raised in Lexington about the same time. He&#039 ; s just a little older. And I suspect that we both have similar and yet so very different experiences. So I&#039 ; m really looking forward to recording Mark&#039 ; s story, for myself and for others to hear. So let&#039 ; s begin. WIDES: Let&#039 ; s go. CRANE: For the record, what is your full name? WIDES: Mark, middle initial E, or Edward, if you&#039 ; d like, Wides. CRANE: And when and where were you born? WIDES: Uh, 2/10/48, uh, the old St. Joe Hospital, here in Lexington. CRANE: Uh, are your parents alive? And what were your parents&#039 ; names and where were they from? WIDES: Neither are alive. Uh, Dad was Norman Aaron Wides, was actually born in Richmond, Kentucky, uh, 8/22/18. My mother was Betty Claire Mickler, born in Asheville, North Carolina, grew up in Lexington--or grew up, excuse me--in Louisville. Dad grew up in Lexington. She was born on 8/22/26. CRANE: Uh WIDES: --so, yes, they did have the same birthday. CRANE: That&#039 ; s interesting. WIDES: Yeah. CRANE: Uh, did your parents and/or maternal or paternal grandparents&#039 ; names change when they or their parents came to America, since your parents were born here? Were their family names changed? Were your names always Wides or? WIDES: --always Wides. CRANE: And always Mickler? WIDES: Um-hm. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Or Ades. CRANE: Ades! WIDES: My grandmother was Ades. CRANE: Oh! A relation to Mike Ades&#039 ; s family? WIDES: Yeah. Cousin. Uh, my grandmother&#039 ; s fathe--uh, there&#039 ; s a relationship there between my grandmother&#039 ; s parents and, uh, David Ades. I think, uh, Lily and David were first cousins. CRANE: Okay! WIDES: Mike was--uh, is David&#039 ; s son. CRANE: Uh WIDES: And then there it goes from there. CRANE: What brought your family to Kentucky? WIDES: That&#039 ; s a good question. Honestly, I do not know. CRANE: Do you or did you--(Wides clears his throat)--have other relatives in Lexington, at the time they came here? Or when did they come here? WIDES: Uh, gee, I&#039 ; m not sure when they came to--uh, uh, not knowing when they came here--uh, are there other relatives? CRANE: The Ade WIDES: We&#039 ; re somewhat, uh, obviously, related to the Ades--uh, a, uh--also the Mickler family, Bob Mickler and--late Bob Mickler and his daughters. Uh, that was a cousin. Uh, trying to think. Uh, directly also to the Cohen family, Robert S. Cohen-- CRANE: --uh WIDES: --Harry Cohen. CRANE: Well, you did have some relatives. So WIDES: (clears throat). Yeah. CRANE: Uh, if you have siblings, what are their names and ages relative to you? WIDES: I&#039 ; m the oldest of four. Uh, I had a sister named Laura, who was, uh--no longer with us, died in &#039 ; 75, uh, hit by a drunk driver on a Sunday afternoon-- CRANE: --uh WIDES: --six weeks, to the day, after my mother passed away. Uh, have a sister Betsy, born in &#039 ; 51, uh, currently still lives in Lexington, uh, not married, uh, works as a come-to-you barber. Uh, and she&#039 ; s also a, uh, volleyball referee. CRANE: Uh! WIDES: And she travels the country, uh, periodically, uh, refereeing volleyball tournaments, everything from clubs to high schools to colleges. And she&#039 ; s done some SEC [Southeastern Conference] work, NAIA [National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics]. She&#039 ; s done some pre-Olympic stuff. She&#039 ; s kind of amazing, in that she&#039 ; s four-foot-eleven, maybe. CRANE: Wow! WIDES: So. But, uh, she has a good time doing that. And then, finally, I&#039 ; ve got a younger brother, Steven. Uh, and he&#039 ; s an attorney here in Lexington. CRANE: Okay!--(Wides clears his throat)--Are you married? WIDES: Married since 1970. CRANE: Okay. And what is your wife&#039 ; s name? And where is she from? WIDES: She&#039 ; s from here in Lexington. She&#039 ; s a member of the Fister clan, uh, grew up--both of us, obviously--here in Lexington. Yvonne is a year younger than I am and formerly worked at UK [University of Kentucky], as a, uh, primary coder for the Department of Medicine, at UK Hospital, just recently retired. CRANE: And I know that you have children. WIDES: (clears throat) ; We have CRANE: --uh, but what are their names and ages and the names and ages of your grandchildren? WIDES: Oh, I can do the CRANE: --&#039 ; cause I know you have grandchildren-- WIDES: --I can do that. We have, uh, three children. The oldest is Alison, Alison Michelle. And she and her husband, John Kinningham, live in Barbourville, actually what we call a suburb of Barbourville, called Walker, Kentucky. It&#039 ; s in Knox County. They live on family property that has been passed down, uh, in John&#039 ; s family since the Revolutionary War days. He has the original land grant that he recei--that his great-great-grandfather, whatever, removed received for his service as a colonel in the Revolutionary War, hand-signed by George Washington. CRANE: Wow! WIDES: They live on--it&#039 ; s approximately 700 acres. It&#039 ; s never been subdivided or anything. So it&#039 ; s still in the family. It&#039 ; s really rural, uh, land, uh, mostly timber, some--probably some oil shale there. Uh, John is in the timber business. He&#039 ; s also what&#039 ; s called a landman. So he does that, uh, oil and gas, uh, lease title searches for, uh, oil, uh, and gas, uh, exploration companies. They have three children, Lily Claire, obviously named after my grandmother and my mother--And she is six. She&#039 ; s in first grade. Uh, Joseph William--or, excuse me--William Joseph. He is, uh, five, goes to, uh, kindergarten full-time. It&#039 ; s our only grandson. And then, finally, we have little Bella, Bella Jane. And she&#039 ; s almost three. And, uh, she thinks she&#039 ; s the oldest and should be in charge. Uh, second child is Brandon, Brandon Michael Wides. He and his wife, Brittany--uh, both nurses. They live in Nicholasville. Uh, both are nurses. He&#039 ; s a nurse--RN at, uh--here at UK. Brittany is a nurse at Baptist. They have three girls between them, his from a first marriage, that didn&#039 ; t work out, uh, Alison Michelle. She&#039 ; s eleven, goes to East Jessamine Middle School. Uh, Avery Madison is Brittany&#039 ; s, from a prior relationship. And she goes to Red Oak Elementary. And then Bristol Kate is our youngest grandchild. And she&#039 ; s about six weeks younger than Bella. Uh CRANE: --uh WIDES: That&#039 ; s what we got. Then we have a third child, uh, Justin Alan. And he currently works for UK Athletics, and recently finally got his degree and is actively searching for a full-time position, with all the perks and benefits that go with that. He does have benefits here at UK but, uh, uh, not as much as he would like. So. CRANE: Uh WIDES: That&#039 ; s what we got. CRANE: What were your parents&#039 ; occupations? Uh, I know you had a family business an --but if you could describe your family&#039 ; s business or WIDES: My mother&#039 ; s wou--would be called today a domestic engineer. I.e., she ran the family household. (clears throat). The family business that my dad and uncle started--uh, he--by education, he was a, uh, 1939 graduate, University of Kentucky, mechanical engineer. Uh, and they started a business in &#039 ; 46. And we&#039 ; ll get into that, I think, I guess, a little bit later. But it started primarily as a scrap business and slowly evolved, over the years, into--into a structural steel, miscellaneous metals, and miscellaneous building, uh, supply company. CRANE: Go ahead and tell us about the, uh, scrap metal business or whatever it was, now, if you would, please. WIDES: As best--uh, let me tell ya, uh, from--from my perspective. Uh, they--my dad got back from the war. He had been a prisoner of war of the Japanese, uh, captured, actually, before, uh, the fall of Corregidor. Uh, and I do have some recordings of where he actually did some interviews regarding that. Uh, very interesting. But, uh--so he had some back pay built up, got a loan from my grandmother, uh--my maternal grandmother, Lily. And he and my uncle, Ed Wides, Edward Joseph Wides, uh, started, uh, a company called Wides Scrap Metals. And as they developed they bought scrap and then resold it, obviously, for a profit, which is what you wanted to do. And that&#039 ; s what a lot of--(clears throat)--Jewish businesses got started, uh, that were in the metals business. Some are still in that business. Some sold those businesses to larger companies. But that&#039 ; s basically how they got started. Prior to the start of Wides Scrap, uh, my grandfather, Morris Wides, was a partner of Morris Baker. So many people referred to it as Baker and Wides. Uh, I think that was the way it was--was listed. Uh, and that was prior to World War II. Uh, my grandfather, uh, uh, somehow lost his half of the business. It was my grandmother Leah who was the brains behind that, uh, business, as far as the relationship between my grandfather and my grandmother--who we called little grandmother, because she was so s--tiny, as opposed to Lily, who was just Grandmother. Notice the, uh, formality of Grandmother, Grandmother, no- not Pops, not anything else. Uh, and sometime during World War II, uh, Morris Baker bought out, uh, pushed out--I&#039 ; m not sure how that worked--Morris Wides. Morris Wides went on to divorce my grandmother and marry somebody else. They lived here in Lexington. [keys rattle]. Never met the man. He died before I was born. Uh, but my name, as in most Jewish namings, Mark, was in honor of Morris Wides. The Edward portion was in honor of my grandf--maternal grandfather, uh, Edward Mickler. Uh, Ed Mickler--Edward Mickler and, uh, Skuller--Lena Skuller were brother and sister-- CRANE: --oh-- WIDES: --Skuller&#039 ; s, uh, jewelry store. CRANE: Where the big clock stands, on WIDES: --still stands. And hopefully, it will con CRANE: --Lime--almost Lime and Main-- WIDES: --yeah--and hopefully will continue to stand. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Uh-- CRANE: --and that&#039 ; s connection to the Cohens. WIDES: That&#039 ; s the connection to the Cohens. CRANE: Okay. Uh, how did your family connect with the other so that&#039 ; s the connection your family had with the--the scrap metal WIDES: That was the connection getting into and CRANE: --into the scrap metal. Okay. WIDES: --starting this business. I&#039 ; m not sure what Ed was doing while, uh, Dad was off at, uh, World War II. But when he got back, he took what, uh, little money he had, uh, from that plus this loan and they started this business. Uh, and that was in 1946. The bu--the business continued, uh, until shortly after I left in 1990. About two or three years later, it--it passed away--went away--uh, which is another story. We might get into that a little bit. Uh, but it slowly evolved, over the years. As you buy scrap, you get new--newer than--than really old scrap. So they got some used beams. And you&#039 ; d get a call from someone who would say, &quot ; Can you give us a beam that will support this, uh, roof&quot ; or--or &quot ; this wall?&quot ; or whatnot. And Dad, being an engineer, would say, &quot ; Yes, I can do that. I&#039 ; ve got something here that will work.&quot ; Eventually, he would get more and more calls for this stuff. So he would have to start buying new material. Uh, this material would come from either a mill or what was know--what were known, and still are, as steel service centers. And these are smaller entities. They&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; re a cross between someone like our company, Wides--what later became Wides Material Company, and the mills. Because mills have minimum orders that you have to place with them, in order to get material from the mill. So you have to be pretty big, at that point. And we w--as a company, were not that big. So we would buy from steel service centers, uh, L--in Louisville--there were none in Lexington--in Louisville or Cincinnati. And as we got into this, we found more steel service centers throughout the country that would bring stuff to us. And that&#039 ; s the way we&#039 ; d compete and get competitive numbers. Uh, then, as we got in doing the miscellaneous steel work that we were doing, scrap, instead of being the predominant entity of Wides Material, became maybe fifty-fifty. And we would start to get calls for--&quot ; Well, you can get this. Can you get this product?&quot ; or &quot ; Can you get that product?&quot ; I joined the company, uh, in 1968, couple years, uh, ou--after high school, still going to UK, uh, school of architecture, uh, and started working there part-time, started as a steel detailer and then gradually got involved in more and more, eventually into quoting projects, designing projects, uh, selling, and so forth. And we ended up creating what now would be called a contract engineering department or a fabrication department. Uh, but we would also do things like doors and frames and hardware and toilet partitions, reinforcing steel, uh, concrete accessories, uh, masonry accessories, even some wood accessories, anything that--uh, it was all basically metal related. Uh, we might be what you would consider maybe a Lowe&#039 ; s or Home Depot, before there was a Ho--(Crane laughs)--Lowe&#039 ; s or Home Depot. Because we had a lot of other stuff. CRANE: Different types of material. WIDES: Correct. And we would get large companies come to us for these other items. I was predominantly in charge of most of that. Uh, Ed was pro--predominantly in charge of the scrap. And Dad oversaw everything. CRANE: When your--(Wides clears throat)--the company first got started, where was it located, when it was-- WIDES: --started o--started, uh, uh-- CRANE: --in the scrap metal business? WIDES: --started o--at 700 East Seventh Street-- CRANE: --okay-- WIDES: --stayed there the entire time. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Uh, the buildings that were there when I left in 1990, even the original, uh, portion of the office area, is still there. It&#039 ; s been covered up, expanded, grown, but whatnot--currently was o--It was bought in 1994 or something like that from Ed Wides and my father&#039 ; s second wife--uh, who sold it. And I have no clue what happened with that money. But, uh, it was sold at an absolute auction, uh, because of all the damage that had been done to the property over the years, from, uh, uh, all the scrap and the stuff that was in the scrap, that had filtered down into the--the property itself. So we sold it at absolute auction, with whoever bought it understanding that they would be responsible for whatever PCBs [polychlorinated biphenyl] or, uh, solutions might be there that would need to be, uh, cleaned an and removed. CRANE: You mentioned that, during those early years, there were several Jewish families that were in the scrap metal business. WIDES: Correct. CRANE: Uh, and you&#039 ; ve mentioned the Bakers. WIDES: Right. CRANE: Were there others? And how did your family connect with, uh? WIDES: There was one other, uh, was a company called Harry Gordon. Uh, I think it was actually called Harry Gordon Scrap Metals. And later it became Harry Gordon Steel. They kept the scrap end of it. Eventually, that business was sold off to a larger co company--(clears throat)--uh, the Gordons, I never knew Mr. Gordon, Senior, Harry Gordon. I knew some o--I knew one of the Gordons, uh, and Mort Norris, who was the son-in-law of, uh, Harry Gordon. And Mort ran the steel end of it. Uh, the Gordons ran the scrap end of it--and buil--uh, Mort built up a really good, uh, clientele. And that&#039 ; s the business that, uh, exists today. (clears throat). It was originally started on Patterson Street. The city and state recently bought the property, maybe two y--three years ago, because of the Newtown, uh, Road extension, going right through it. So Harry Gordon Steel has since moved to--and relocated to Winchester, Kentucky. CRANE: Oh! WIDES: Uh, it is currently run, uh--owned and run by Ben Norris. And I&#039 ; m sure his brother Phillip has a small part of that, as well, who also works there. But I would highly recommend that you, uh, contact Ben. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Uh, I&#039 ; ll give you some contact information for that. Uh, Ben and I talk probably once or twice a week, uh, always have--so--especially since I&#039 ; m in the business that I am now, not as much when I was competing against them. But, uh, uh--but, as to how those families got along, very cordial. (laughs). I mean, uh, uh, it&#039 ; s competition but it&#039 ; s--you know, you&#039 ; re CRANE: --healthy competition. WIDES: Uh, for the most part, yeah, I would think so. CRANE: And doing some research on your family, I learned that your father had a role with the UK yearbook, uh, in 1939. What, if anything, can you tell me about his experience with the yearbook or his experience at UK? WIDES: He was a member of ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau]. Beyond that, I have no clue! CRANE: Okay. Did you know he was involved in WIDES: --no CRANE: --the UK yearbook? WIDES: No. CRANE: You might want to Google him. (laughs). Uh, there are some interviews. And there--there is some information online about him. WIDES: I have, uh, heard some of the interviews but only that stuff which, uh, related to his experiences CRANE: --in the war WIDES: --World War II experience. CRANE: Right. WIDES: So pr--I have nothing on the other. CRANE: Okay. What was your Judaism in your family like, growing up? How did Jewishness figure into your childhood? And what traditions did you follow? WIDES: Well, we were--I am a member of, uh, Temple Adath Israel. Uh, just typical. I mean, uh, I did everything that every other kid did, uh, played baseball, you know, did all the other stuff. But, uh, when it came time to get bar mitzvah--You know, I went to Sunday school every Sunday, uh, got confirm--bar mitzvahed there--uh, High Holy Days. Didn&#039 ; t go to services regularly on Friday night, but fairly regular. Especially as Dad got--you know, we got older and so forth, I would go with him. Uh, still go--not as much. I&#039 ; m not real enamored with the new rabbi. But maybe he&#039 ; ll just have to grow on me. Or maybe--whatever. He&#039 ; s--he&#039 ; s just different. So, uh--I had, years ago, served on the board. Don&#039 ; t do that anymore. Taught Sunday school for about ten years. Don&#039 ; t do that anymore. Uh, mine is the predominant, uh, uh, acti--uh, involvement at the temple. Betsy also goes. My brother does not. Kids were not raised Jewish. Uh, my wife&#039 ; s Catholic. Uh, they did go to Sunday school, uh, to a point. Uh, Brandon still has good friends th--and cousins around the country, that he contacts. He was very active in the Youth Group. I was very active in Youth Group, actually president of the temple Youth Group, when I was a senior in high school. So between my traveling with swim teams and my duties as president of the temple Youth Group, uh, I was pretty busy, uh, at the temple, as best I could. CRANE: Uh WIDES: --uh CRANE: I grew up with most of my Jewish connections at the synagogue WIDES: --corre CRANE: --and I su--and su suspect that you grew up with most of your Jewish connections at the temple. So what was it like for you, growing, uh--growing up Jewish in Lexington, attending the temple? Uh, did you ? You said you went to Sunday school. You said you had bar mitzvah. Did you socialize? And you said you were the, uh, Youth Group president. Di ? Were those your core friends? Did you socialize? WIDES: Basically. I ha--you know, I had a--a multitude of friends and so forth. The best man at my wedding was David Rose-- CRANE: --okay-- WIDES: --who we grew up with. Uh, we spent a lot of time together. But I spent a lot of time with, uh, my--wh--gentile friends, if you would. Uh, as far as, uh, you guys over at the--at the shul or, uh, synagogue, uh, yeah, the Rosenbergs--spent a lot of time with them--uh, even dated Joyce, off and on for a little while. Uh, a lot of synagogue members had dual memberships. Not the other way around. Not real sure why. But there were a lot of dual memberships. Attended a lot of bar mitzvahs and/or parties at, uh--at the synagogue. So, uh, you know, I had friends over there too. So. CRANE: Okay. Where did you attend elementary, junior high, and, for the record, high school? I actually know where you went to high school. But please share that. WIDES: Uh, elementary school, I started at the old Kenwick Elementary School-- CRANE: --uh-- WIDES: --on Henry Clay Boulevard--uh, later became Julia R. Ewan. She was principal when I was there. Went there for three years, in the fourth grade switched to Cassidy Elementary, then went to junior high, which, now they call that middle school, went to Morton Middle School, then on to Henry Clay. Now, what&#039 ; s interesting about that was, at some point in time during that--that time, I think it was between--it might have been between my sophomore and junior year, they merged the school systems. But one of the things they wanted you to do was you go to the school nearest you, that&#039 ; s in your district. Well, I lived on Montclair Drive. That&#039 ; s the Lafayette School District. My parents had to pay a tuition of some sort for me to go to, uh, Henry Clay and continue my education at Henry Clay, which is, by the way, where my father graduated from. Had some of the same teachers he did. That was not a CRANE: That&#039 ; s scary. (laughs) WIDES: That was scary. Tha--you know, they remembered him. (Crane coughs). Uh, and they remembered his twin sister. Uh, so they had to pay. The only caveat, besides that, was you&#039 ; re responsible for your own transportation. There&#039 ; s no school bus that&#039 ; s going come pick you up. There are city buses. You can ride that or get a ride. So between the junior and senior year, wh--after that was resolved, David and I would drive, in that big long white DeSoto that he got from his grandmother. I don&#039 ; t know if you remember that or not. But it was long, white. And it--it stretched from here to Nicholasville. It--it was big. CRANE: As we both know, there were only a handful or two of Jewish students at any school in Lexington-- WIDES: Um-hm. CRANE: --during our school-age years. (Wides clears his throat). What was it like for you, as a young Jewish male, during your school experiences? What impact did being Jewish have or have not, uh, on your school years? WIDES: I always thought I was kind of special, because, uh--uh, never felt segregated, uh, uh, ostracized, kept out of the loop, or anything. Uh, I was involved in several activities in the school. Uh, you know, you&#039 ; re--you&#039 ; re on the swim team. One year, I was, uh, actually on the football team, until I broke a leg. CRANE: Uh WIDES: Uh, band, Key Club. Uh, there were just lots of activity. So I never really felt it. There were times when, uh, uh--Passover, you know, I&#039 ; d be taking matzo sandwiches to--to school for lunch. Because obviously, I&#039 ; m not going be eating the--what&#039 ; s ever being served out of the cafeteria. Which, I still don&#039 ; t know what was being served out of there. But, you know, where the old Henry Clay was, now the central office building, a couple restaurants across the street, specifically, Clay&#039 ; s, spent a lot of time there at lunchtime. CRANE: Eating those French fries and gravy. WIDES: Lots of French fries and gravy, lots of French--and Coke, real Coke. There--there was no such thing as Diet Coke or Coke Zero or whatever. Occasionally, we&#039 ; d get them to pour some cherry juice in it. CRANE: Describe how or if you connected with the larger Jewish community in Lexington. You&#039 ; ve--you&#039 ; ve touched on that a little bit by sharing that you had friends at the synagogue. But what about Louisville or Cincinnati? Uh, what was--uh, ho how were your Youth Group experiences connecting you with a larger Jewish community? And what impact did that have? WIDES: Uh, because of Youth Group, I would get to go to Fort Wayne. I&#039 ; d go to, uh, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, you know, and see all these kids from all these other towns, Terre Haute, you know, obviously Louisville, uh, and people that I just didn&#039 ; t know. But they were just like you and me. And that was really kind of neat, going to--Went to OFTY 2, to camp, one year. Went to NFTY 2, up in, uh, Warwick, New York. Uh, gosh, that was fun. (coughs). Uh, and there were three of us that went from, uh, our little, uh, you know, Ohio Valley, uh, OFTY group. Rode the train, all the way up to Warwick--and back, two girls and me. And, uh, that was good. CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life or Jewish ritual, growing up? WIDES: Well, I&#039 ; ll mention two. One was Hanukkah. My mother really decorated the house for Hanukkah. It was an elaborate holiday. Uh, and there were actually Hanukkah house decorating contests. CRANE: At the temple? WIDES: At the temple. And we actually won it several times. CRANE: Oh! WIDES: Uh, so I remember those. CRANE: What were the decorations like? WIDES: Just banners. It would say, &quot ; Happy Hanukkah.&quot ; Whatever she could find at, uh, the temple gift shop, or what she could make. There was no Internet, so you can&#039 ; t go online and find everything that you can find today. Uh, lots of blue and gold, lots of blue and gold. Uh, and I remember--And I would invite my neighbor from across the street, Pete Hemphill. You might remember Pete. CRANE: Uh WIDES: And he was my best friend, growing up, other than David. Uh, so he would always come over. We&#039 ; d invite him over for the first night, to light the candles on the first night. And he always thought that was neat. Then Irene and Walter would always invite me over to help decorate their Christmas tree, regardless of when it was. And I thought that was kind of neat t--So we got to share that back and forth. So that go--that addresses a little bit about how it was to interact and so forth. Uh, and then the second, obviously, was my bar mitzvah. CRANE: And what was that like, for you? WIDES: Well, for me, it was--it was a little different. Uh, we had to transition rabbis, from when I started, to the rabbi that was the officiating rabbi for my bar mitzvah. Joe Rosenblum is who I started with. Lovely man. And then we got this guy named, uh, Rothman--(laughs)--Rabbi Rothman. And, uh, he was different. Probably would never have gotten through my bar mitzvah had it not been for another gentleman here in Lexington, by the name of Bill Shraberg. Bill taught me all the Hebrew that I would ever need to know and then some, got me through all the prayers. I spent many a day, uh, at the Shrabergs, uh, doing my Hebrew lessons. That&#039 ; s where I learned Hebrew, not at the temple. CRANE: So, uh WIDES: So tha that was fun. And, uh, uh, I will forever be in my debt to--to Bill Shraberg for that. Uh, still see David, uh, uh--whenever I&#039 ; m at temple, I see him, uh, occasionally will see each other socially. But there&#039 ; s not as much interaction, I don&#039 ; t think, today, on a deliberate basis, as there was, say, uh, fifteen years ago, maybe twenty years ago, uh, at the temple, when, uh, uh--There were a group of about six couples. And that&#039 ; s where everybody was. They--we were doing everything, from trips to, uh, movies to dinners to whatever, here in Lexington. Uh, as we all got older, started to branch out a little bit more. And some o&#039 ; the families didn&#039 ; t stay the same. (laughs). CRANE: Uh-- WIDES: --so. But, uh CRANE: --uh, before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else unique we should know about your family background or your childhood years, that you&#039 ; d like to share? WIDES: Uh, at the moment, none that I can think of. But should I remember something that I think might be interesting, uh, I&#039 ; ll spit it out. CRANE: Okay. Let&#039 ; s--before we get into, uh, your college life, can we talk about the pictures you brought? I noticed that you, uh--(Wides clears his throat)--we probably should have talked about them when you were WIDES: --uh CRANE: --talking about the business but WIDES: --I hope this doesn&#039 ; t glare. Uh, and I&#039 ; ll be more than happy to leave these with you. And, uh, just give them back to me when you can. CRANE: I will. WIDES: This first picture, uh, is a picture of the very first truck that my father and uncle owned. The gentleman behind the wheel is George. And, uh, George Jackson was the first employee they hired. And I remember Uncle George. That&#039 ; s what I always called him, was Uncle George. And, uh, this is what they would go and pick up the scrap in. And this is what they would also take down the highway to Cincinnati or wherever they were selling it. (clears throat). Excuse me. The second is a group of snapshots. Uh, this is loading--We had a railroad siding at Wides Material, right there off Seventh Street. So we would load scrap into the railroad cars and then that would go to the mills. (coughs). You have to excuse me. Uh, so this is the first load being loaded. Uh, just some miscellaneous--of cutting the scrap and getting it prepared to go. You had to get it cut down into sizes that they would accept at the mill. Uh, this was a big--what we called an alligator shear. And it would just rip through anything, literally. Loading another car. And then, as I said, we, uh, slowly evolved into this steel business that we were doing. And this is a picture--and this building actually still exists, on, uh, Delaware Avenue. CRANE: Um-hm. WIDES: Uh, it&#039 ; s where Room Service is now. And I got involved in that a little bit, when I was first starting out in Wides Material. So, uh--oh, wait a minute. No. This is the one at Kentucky Lighting. The one on Delaware was the second--uh, was the second one. And that&#039 ; s the one I did. This is where Kentucky Lighting was--is, on, uh CRANE: --Winchester WIDES: --Winchester Road, which is, obviously, still standing. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: S CRANE: --thank you. WIDES: I keep these on my wall at the o--at my office. I work out of the house. CRANE: That&#039 ; s pretty nice. (Wides clears his throat). I know that you graduated high school in June of 1966, and therefore probably started college that following fall. WIDES: Um-hm. CRANE: So in 1966, why did you decided to attend the University of Kentucky? WIDES: Got a partial, uh--scholarship help, uh, for the swim team. I was a swimmer. And it wasn&#039 ; t much. Uh, I think it was more in name only. There--I don&#039 ; t think it was, uh, much--uh, there might have been 100 bucks, if there was anything. (clears throat). And CRANE: --which would have paid a whole semester-- WIDES: --it was close-- CRANE: --back then. WIDES: It was close. Twelve dollars an hour, I think, is what it cost when I started college. And the--and the books were nowhere near as expensive as they are now, which, they&#039 ; re darn near as expensive as--as a semester of school, anymore. But, uh, wasn&#039 ; t real sure what I was going do. I know I had, uh, counseling meetings with, uh, Harriet Rose, who was a counselor at UK--I don&#039 ; t know if you recall that or not--and trying to figure out what I should major in. I thought, well, to the business--should I get into engineering, be like my dad? I wasn&#039 ; t s--I had no clue, absolutely no clue. I would have been better off not going to school. Uh, settled on engineering. So got enrolled in that. And going to swim practice a lot and doing other things. And my grade-point average that first semester was a 0.53. Now keep in mind I was an honor roll student at Henry Clay, Key Club, Beta Club, all that good stuff. But I guess Henry Clay was just that easy. Uh, or maybe they just gave me the grades. I have no clue. But, uh, probably partied a little bit more than I should have. The next semester was a 3.2. And it stayed about 3, 3.4, something like that the rest of the way through, until I decided I don&#039 ; t need this crap anymore. I&#039 ; m just going to go and do what I&#039 ; m doing. Because I&#039 ; m doing really well at what I do, uh, selling all this steel, designing these buildings. I don&#039 ; t need to finish this last semester of school. What&#039 ; s ? CRANE: --so you left before you--the WIDES: --I left before I graduated. S CRANE: --what were your--while you were there, what were your living accommodations? WIDES: Uh, started out living at home. Uh, later moved to an apartment--uh, or a house, actu--Hampton Court, with a friend of mine. I had transferred from engineering to architecture. So, uh, the guy was year older than me, school of architecture, said, &quot ; Hey I&#039 ; m going to start&quot ; he was from Barbourville, by the way, which, kind of tie between that and my daughter and son-in-law--uh, said, &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t we rent this house together?&quot ; Uh, well, why not? This is great. So there I am, out on my own finally, living the dream, working in the summer, going to school part-time in the summer to try to catch back up, an--and just get rid of some classes that I didn&#039 ; t want to take during the regular school year, and then we were living in this house, this--on Hampton Court. And it was an absolutely gorgeous home. CRANE: Uh WIDES: --and keep in mind--we&#039 ; ll preface that a little bit. Uh, in my Youth Group days, specifically my last year, uh, being president and traveling around especially the Louisville area and whatnot--and, uh, my family--uh, my mother&#039 ; s family was from Louisville. Uh, got cousins who still live there. Uh, I met a young lady. And we started dating while I was in high school. She ended up going on to Ohio State. And at some point in time, uh, after I graduated--You know, I&#039 ; d go to Louisville, spend the night. We&#039 ; d do whatever we would do. And then I&#039 ; d come back. I&#039 ; d got a job as a lifeguard, uh, at a new pool that was just opened up for the benefit of the Greater Lexington Aquatic Club. But it was actually opened up--uh, it was called GLAC, Greater Lexington Aquatic Club, but it was opened for the benefit of the Greater Lexington Swim Association which was the first and only swim team in central Kentucky. There are several teams in central Kentucky now. The swimming accommodations aren&#039 ; t much better than they were then. But we needed a place where we could get a dedicated space, dedicated pool, uh, more than what UK and the Y had. So my dad, along with three or four other gentlemen, pooled money together and bought the old, uh, Cross Keys YMCA CRANE: --uh WIDES: --which also had a--or Cross Key, uh--it wasn&#039 ; t the Y then. It was just the Cross Keys. There was an ice skating rink there. If you--outdoor rink there, there was a pool. CRANE: Uh WIDES: They bought this place, uh, put a building over the twenty-five-meter portion of the pool, to enclose it in. And that&#039 ; s where we all went for swim practice. But in that timeframe of buying that, uh, they opened the pool up to the public to get members in to help pay the debt, obviously. So I was a lifeguard. Uh CRANE: --and this is while you were in college? WIDES: Uh, this was be--this was right after high school CRANE: --oh. Okay-- WIDES: --of &#039 ; 66. And the reason I&#039 ; m getting to that is because of the girl and then--who I subsequently met and married. Uh, and I&#039 ; m walking around. There were three of us, uh, that were the lifeguards. And you can imagine a pool that size and only three lifeguards. But that&#039 ; s all we had. Uh, that&#039 ; s partially why I got the partial, walk on scholarship, if you will, because Wynn Paul was the general manager of the club who was also the UK swim coach. So. Uh, that&#039 ; s how I met my w--my future wife. Uh, she was the b blonde on the side of the pool in the cute little bikini. CRANE: Sunbathing. WIDES: Oh, yeah. Uh, and I was--(coughs)--I was a little bit smaller than I am now. But then, weren&#039 ; t we all, fifty years ago? (laughs). CRANE: So describe a day in--in your life as a college student on UK&#039 ; s campus. Uh, clearly, I think what you&#039 ; re telling me is that you had a girlfriend from the beginning of college on. WIDES: Correct. CRANE: Okay. Uh, but what did you do? Where did you go? And, uh WIDES: --typically CRANE: --how did being Jewish impact your day-to-day experiences on campus? WIDES: Being Jewish didn&#039 ; t really CRANE: --okay WIDES: --uh, have anything--uh, there--there was not very much involvement. I was not involved with ZBT, which was the only Jewish, uh, fraternity on campus at the time. Uh, not sure why. But just did--My father was a member of ZBT. Uh, I was basically a--a commuter student, if you will. I would drive in, uh, try to find parking, like everybody else. It was even bad--it was worse then, I guess, than it is now. I&#039 ; m not sure. Got my share of parking tickets. Go to class. Uh, if I found a really good spot--uh, as the years we--as a couple years went on and I transferred into the school of architecture--uh as you got into the program, you got a little bit--uh, uh, you got s--your seniority, and started, really, moving into that as a full-time, uh, course of study, you would be given a--an area--or you could, uh, stake out an area that would be your, uh, area for your design work, e et cetera. So that would be your base of operations. And I can remember, you know, uh, guys would bring in, uh, hotplates, they&#039 ; d bring in coffee pots. Uh, you&#039 ; d have your own, uh, radios there, for, uh, listening to music. Uh, some had small tape recorders. Because back then, you--that&#039 ; s what you had. Uh, and that&#039 ; s how we got through. And I would spend--I might park the car on Tuesday and not leave--(coughs)--get back to the car until, you know, Thursday or Friday. I would spend all that time there. Uh, I guess we smelled pretty bad. I don&#039 ; t know. Uh, but, you know, when you&#039 ; re in those design studios, it&#039 ; s--you&#039 ; re doing your other work, you&#039 ; re going to the other classes, and then you go back to your base of operations. Uh, I probably spent more time in the Pence Hall library than I did in this library, at Margaret King. Because most of my course of study involved stuff that would be found there as opposed to here. Uh, and then maybe I&#039 ; d go over to the Student Center, grab something to eat. Uh CRANE: --Mark, it was my understanding that, while you were at the University of Kentucky, you were involved to some degree in the establishment or an attempted establishment of the Jewish fraternity AEPi [Alpha Epsilon Pi]. WIDES: That&#039 ; s correct. CRANE: Uh, can you tell me a little bit about your involvement and any others who--that you can remember that were involved and how and why AEPi came to be at UK or why it&#039 ; s no longer there or ? WIDES: --don&#039 ; t know why it&#039 ; s no longer there. Uh, we got a--there was a gentleman from University of Texas, Dr. John Perl (??). CRANE: And, uh WIDES: Remember John CRANE: --I do remember him. WIDES: He&#039 ; s the one who got it, basically, started, brought somebody down from national and so forth, and invited me and, uh, uh, other people from the campus, that I didn&#039 ; t know at that point in time but later came to know, people like, uh, Ben Bayer--uh, uh, and then Bennett Bayer, later on--And, uh, found a house UK owned and we sort of cleaned up, made up. Some of the things I remember from that house--uh, reminiscent of what you see in the movie Animal House. I mean, it was, uh--there were times when it was kind of--you know, you look, uh, back now, it was kind of scary. Keep in mind I was dating Vonne, a at that point in time, and I had been. And I was more concerned--you know, I was going to do this stuff with AEPi but I was more concerned--I was focused on her and what I could get there--(clears throat)--young and stupid. But--uh, so I was really the only member of AEPi--And we did establish the--the chapter there. CRANE: Do you remember--was it Lambda? WIDES: --Lambda Chi. Or is it Lambda Kappa? CRANE: Lam--Lambda Kappa, I think, is WIDES: --Lambda Kappa. CRANE: Okay. And what year was that? WIDES: Uh, that had to be around seven--uh, &#039 ; 69, &#039 ; 70, somewhere in that neighborhood. And I remember, uh--You know, I was the only one seriously dating anybody. Uh, Johnny was going to, uh, dental school here. And he was dating anybody and everybody that he could, uh--with. CRANE: You could probably leave that out. WIDES: Leave that part out? Uh CRANE: --kidding. WIDES: Uh, he was having a good time too. Uh, and then, uh CRANE: --where was the fraternity house? WIDES: It was on Maxwell. The house is still there. I think it&#039 ; s a sorority house now. Should have been torn down. But I think they--UK came in and renovated it. Uh, I&#039 ; m sure we demolished it. I know that we went in an and did some renovations on the inside, as far as, uh, uh, making some rooms--you know, subdividing rooms and so forth, like that. And I&#039 ; d stayed there for a while. I know Vonne went over. It was a really bad kitchen. But we used what we had. I know she went over and cooked some meals for everybody. And I remember everybody really enjoyed it when they heard that Vonne was coming over to cook. Vonne started out at UK, was going to school there, and went about two and a half years and said, uh, &quot ; I just don&#039 ; t want to do this&quot ; and got--started working full-time--uh, and then ended up having a good career at UK. CRANE: Do--uh, do you recall, besides, uh, Benjy Bayer--and you--any other? WIDES: --Alan Stein became a member. CRANE: Okay. Alan. Who else? WIDES: I can see-I can see faces. Uh, uh, my memory&#039 ; s shot. CRANE: You said Bennett? WIDES: Bennett Bayer, later on. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Uh, he became a member. Uh, I was--I was the first married member. Because we got married in &#039 ; 70 and it was still--in fact most of those fraternity brothers were at the wedding. Uh, there was a lot of free alcohol. That&#039 ; s why they showed up, I believe. But, uh, we even conti--Vonne and I even continued to participate. Uh, she would go over and cook meals, for, you know, a year or so after, uh, we got married. And then, uh--then it be--just became more, you know, uh, I&#039 ; ve got work to do, uh, she&#039 ; s got work to do. We had other things to do. CRANE: How did? Uh, you said that Johnny, uh, brought someone down from national. WIDES: He did. CRANE: Do you don&#039 ; t recall who that was? Was it somebody else WIDES: --he actually brought CRANE: --from Houston? WIDES: --somebody from Ohi--it was from Ohio University CRANE: --oh, okay-- WIDES: --who was coming on behalf of national. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: I remember him. Uh, I can visually see. And I&#039 ; ll probably remember in the shower, uh, two days from now, &quot ; Oh! That&#039 ; s who that was.&quot ; Uh, little bit shorter than I am, little bit stockier than I am even now, uh, dark hair. And, uh, he was a grad student or maybe a--was he a grad student or was he a teacher? Maybe professor at Ohio University. I know he was from Ohio University. But somehow, they got together an and brought this--brought this here. CRANE: Can you describe some of the activities, um, the formal activities, and role of AEPi on UK&#039 ; s campus? WIDES: No. Don&#039 ; t remember. I remember the parties. But those weren&#039 ; t formal. Certainly nothing to the benefit of the, uh, UK, uh, community. CRANE: Uh, did AEPi interact with other, uh, Greek life on campus? WIDES: We did, uh, to a point. I mean, we--uh, we had a representative on the council, of course, uh, you know, did have to work to maintain grades. Uh, I know some of them did get involved in campus life, as individuals, not as, uh--(clears throat)--not as a AEPi member so much as--but being part of the, uh, IFC [Interfraternity Council], uh, getting involved there. Uh, Alan was a prime example of that. Uh CRANE: --how so? WIDES: Well, he got--he go--he did a lot of, uh, campus--well, I guess it goes back to what I just said we didn&#039 ; t do. But he did, as an individual. But he was doing it because he was a member of AEPi. But I think--uh, I&#039 ; m not sure if it was because he was a member of AEPi or because he just wanted that involvement. Maybe it was both--probably. CRANE: How long did the fraternity last on campus? WIDES: Don&#039 ; t know when it ended. I really do not know. Uh, I know I&#039 ; ve had correspondence, over the last twenty-five, thirty years, about trying to bring it back, and had a call, uh, maybe just two, three years ago, from somebody wanting to bring it back. Uh, just coincidentally, my cousin-in-law, who&#039 ; s married to my cousin, uh, Barry Schwartz, served as AEPi, uh, president, uh, national president, several years ago, still sits on the board. But the call was not from, uh, Barry. It was from someone else. CRANE: What was the climate on campus? WIDES: --oh, I know who the other person was, that CRANE: --oh! WIDES: --that helped start it here, Steve Coller (??). CRANE: Oh! WIDES: He was--he was the other individual, in addition to this, uh, young man from, uh, Ohio University. So it was those three. (clears throat). CRANE: Thank you. What was the climate on campus like for Jews to become members of non-Jewish fraternities? And was ZBT still around WIDES: --I don&#039 ; t think CRANE: --at this ti? WIDES: --uh, it was still around but, uh, uh--they never came after me at all. I never really went over there. Uh, I don&#039 ; t know why--uh, on either side of that. But they were minor. I think they were still living in a house over off of, uh--was it Columbia, maybe? CRANE: Rose Lane. WIDES: Rose Lane. Excuse me. Rose Lane. But other than that, no, I don&#039 ; t know. Uh, you have to understand the, uh, climate--political climate of the time. Vietnam was at its height. Kent State occurred while I was--UK, the burning of the ROTC [Reserve Officer&#039 ; Training Corps] building here at UK. CRANE: That&#039 ; s true. WIDES: Uh, you know, it was total antiestablishment. Uh, my hair, at that point in time, was as long as yours is now. Uh, it just--it was a different time--uh, in ways not much different than it is now. Uh, I think the, uh--the discontent was--was more vocal and, uh, certainly a lot less violent than it is now. CRANE: Do you think that had, uh, an impact on why AEPi di--w wasn&#039 ; t really grounded or ZBT wasn&#039 ; t as grounded as some of the other fraternities? WIDES: (clears throat). Not sure about ZBT. Because they&#039 ; ve been around for a while, obviously. Uh, AEPi, maybe yes. Uh, it still is a very small Jewish community, if you will, or Jewish population at UK. So if you got two, in essence, predominant or almost exclusive, if you will, uh, Jewish fraternities, where you&#039 ; ve only got maybe thirty or forty, uh, Jewish men out of the total UK, uh, enrollment, it&#039 ; s kind of tough to maintain two houses--with, uh, so few me--numbers. And then we weren&#039 ; t always able to identify, you know, and then go out and grab them. We did get, uh, non-Jewish members at AEPi. Uh, and I think, uh, over the years, as--you know, the other fraternities now are much more all-inclusive. I&#039 ; m sure there&#039 ; s exceptions. CRANE: Describe, uh--(Wides clears his throat)--any experience you had with other Jewish organizations on campus, such as Hillel. WIDES: None with Hillel. Tried it, uh, once or twice, going to the thing that was sponsored by the temple. And it was just--no. CRANE: Okay. Did you have relationships with other Jewish students, outside of AEPi? WIDES: Other than people like David Rose, who I grew up with, or Harry Cohen--uh, grew up with, uh, uh, not really. CRANE: Did your time at UK, your involvement with AEPi, uh, or growing up Jewish, did that that affect your--uh, your dating? Obviously not your marriage. Uh WIDES: --no. Uh, I was still your--your typical young male, other than I had a girlfriend. CRANE: What was your Jewish life, uh--what was Jewish life in Lexington like, when you were a student? WIDES: Still went to temple, uh, semi-regularly. I would make sure--you know, there for the holidays. Uh, you know, sometimes when I was at UK and you had, you know, holidays where you&#039 ; d have to miss class, you know, some of the teachers and professors were understanding and some, &quot ; You&#039 ; re not here, you&#039 ; re--you&#039 ; re going lose.&quot ; They were not understanding whatsoever. Uh, there were times when, uh, I had to miss services, because I knew I would not--(laughs)--uh, get credit for the class or for the work if I wasn&#039 ; t there. And they wouldn&#039 ; t allow you to make it up. And I remember a couple times that we had gone to the administration to say, &quot ; Hey, come on. Uh, they got to be a little bit tolerant, to allow us,&quot ; you know, &quot ; to go to Rosh Hashanah service&quot ; or Yom Kippur or whatever it may have been. And, uh, somewhat met with a, uh, stone wall. They just--uh, some were understanding, and understood it, I guess those who grew up more cosmopolitan. There were some that just, &quot ; You&#039 ; re not here, you don&#039 ; t get credit.&quot ; In fact, you get counted down. And, uh, you know, you miss that class once and get--you lose that work, you don&#039 ; t miss it a second time. CRANE: You&#039 ; ve talked a little bit about your Jewish life after college, uh, and why you stayed in Lexington, in order to continue working--and that your wife&#039 ; s family is, obviously, from here as well. WIDES: Um-hm. CRANE: Uh, and you&#039 ; ve mentioned, a little bit, about your kids--you know, what it was like with your kids. They--uh, did they go to Sunday school? Uh, I guess WIDES: All thr CRANE: --can you describe your? WIDES: --all three di--all three did CRANE: --okay WIDES: --especially while I was teaching. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: When I stopped teaching, uh, I think they--uh, we had them there for at least one or two more years but, after that, it just stopped. Uh, like in any marriage, there are really good times and there are some times that are kind of tough. And it was at a tough time, for, uh, things that have nothing to do with being Jewish. It was just tough times with some other issues. And, uh, uh, I was just struggling--we were struggling just to keep the family together, to keep pushing forward, to get through that--those personal issues that we were having. And I&#039 ; ll leave it at that. CRANE: How was your Jewishness different from that of your parents? Or for that matter, how is it different from that of your children, as well? WIDES: Uh, my parents were raised Jewish. You--you know, Dad went to temple all the time. I&#039 ; m not real sure with my mother but I&#039 ; m sure much the same. So you were expected to date Jewish, marry Jewish. Uh, there was a lot of, uh, discontent, if you will, one, because I was dating non Jewish and then became engaged. That b--made even a worse family situation, from my side, not hers. Uh, the rabbi at the time was Bill Leffler. And, uh, he wanted nothing to do with us, even went so far as to, uh, go to my future father-in-law and talk to him. Uh, my dad was, &quot ; Okay, this is what you&#039 ; re going do. This is what you&#039 ; re going do.&quot ; My mother loved Vonne, so it didn&#039 ; t really matter to her. She was much more open to that. My grandmother, uh, very much, uh, didn&#039 ; t like it but liked Vonne. My uncle, Ed, Dad&#039 ; s brother, was really pissed. They eve--Ed and Evelyn even had us over for dinner one night. And basically, it was to basically say, &quot ; You&#039 ; re going be disinherited from the family, if you do this, if you keep going on like this. You need to stop this right now.&quot ; We thought it was just welcoming us to the family type of dinner and it was the intervention, if you will. I guess that&#039 ; s what they call them now. (clears throat). And I guess that was the beginning of the end with me and my uncle, with regard to, uh, being able to, uh, either inherit Wides Material Company or be able to buy Wides Material Company. My uncle was not a saint, by any stretch of the imagination. Uh, I&#039 ; ve got flaws. Uh, not even go there with what he had, lots of baggage, lots of baggage. So it was rather sanctimonious, to me, with, uh, his attitude an and comments. Evelyn went along with him for a little while and then decided, &quot ; You know, Vonne&#039 ; s not that bad. We kind of like her. And, oh, by the way, she makes great matzo ball soup.&quot ; She makes great chicken soup. Sh- she fixes brisket better than anybody else in the family. You know. Uh, she kept a pretty good, uh, if you will, somewhat Jewish household. Uh, so it got through it. It got through it. So. CRANE: And your kids? WIDES: Uh, Alison, uh, I think she still considers herself Jewish. She allows her kids to go to--to church every--every week or every other week or whatever, because there is no other--there&#039 ; s no, uh--there&#039 ; s no other religion down there. There&#039 ; s this little Baptist religion and that&#039 ; s about it, down there in, uh, Knox County. It&#039 ; s--so there--there is no Judaism down there, per se. But, you know, wh when you talk with her, uh, when you see some of her writings, uh, she&#039 ; s very much more comfortable, I would think, acknowledging herself as--as Jewish than not. [Rustling] Brandon, uh, he&#039 ; s now decided that, uh--although he still has a lot of Jewish friends and continues, to this day, corresponding with those that he went to, uh, Youth Group camp with for a couple years, still to this day corresponds with them. But he&#039 ; s, uh--he goes to Southland Christian Church. So. And then Justin, uh, he&#039 ; s not an atheist. I don&#039 ; t think he&#039 ; s an agnostic either. He&#039 ; s just--it&#039 ; s not a point of r reference. He&#039 ; ll go with me to temple, when I ask, if he&#039 ; s available. Uh, but it&#039 ; s not a point of reference for him, whatsoever. CRANE: What has been the role of Israel or Zionism in your activities or your identity as a Jew? WIDES: Uh, I would say my annual contributions to, uh--on Super Sunday. Uh, sat on the board for several terms. CRANE: The board? WIDES: --of the CRANE: --Federation? WIDES: --Federation. Uh, was the co-chair of Super Sunday for two years. So, uh--And continue, to this day, you know, making my suppor--Never been to Israel. That&#039 ; s on my bucket list. Vonne has no desire to go, whatsoever. But that is on my bucket list. Dad went two or three times. Uh, my sister Laura lived in Israel for about two years, on a kibbutz. Uh, and, when she came back, in, uh she came back in &#039 ; 75, when my mom got real sick, uh, to be with her, and then I think was planning on going back and then, unfortunately, never made it back. CRANE: I highly recommend it--th the trip. WIDES: It is--uh, you know, uh, uh, I watch with envy and read with envy what John Adland&#039 ; s been--you know, his trips and Marc Kline&#039 ; s trips and, uh, Steve Coller, his trips that he&#039 ; s talked about. And, uh, I just have to do it. Uh, that&#039 ; s--and I--I&#039 ; m still physically able, that I can do the walking. Thank God for Jeff Selby and my new knee. Uh, they make parts that really work. And, uh, so, yeah, that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s number one on my bucket list. CRANE: How have things changed in Lexington, uh, since you&#039 ; ve been here, as far as the Jewish community? Or do you see the changes? WIDES: Hm. I think, overall, uh, the community is much more accepting. Uh, I never felt discriminated against--there--uh, as an individu--You know, maybe, uh, the--maybe there were one or two people that--you know, just totally ignorant. Uh, obviously, it&#039 ; s--it--uh, some things have changed. Like, you know, there&#039 ; s Jewish members out at the Lexington Country Club. Uh, there&#039 ; s even, uh, some, I think, at Idle Hour now, finally. Uh, these are clubs that, you know, prohibited Jews. And I can remember growing up an and in high school, you know, going to Cotillion. And, uh, well, they would have their dances at a variety of places, including places that--normal activities, I couldn&#039 ; t go to. Uh, like, Idle Hour Country Club, they would have a dance there or Lexington Country Club. Can&#039 ; t tell you how many dances I went to, both those places. Never an issue. Uh, uh, there was that discrimination then. Uh, I know, when, uh, we would have, uh--y--close the--the office for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, put the sign up out on the front gate, &quot ; Closed today for Jewish New Year&quot ; or Yom Kippur, uh, our customers understood it. And we had customers from all over central and eastern Kentucky. We&#039 ; d put out a notice and mail it out a couple weeks in advance, that we&#039 ; re going be closed. Uh, I know there were a couple businesses--I don&#039 ; t think Baker Iron and Metal closed. I think they stayed open. I think Harry Gordon Steel stayed open. But we closed. And the customers were very understanding. Did it cost us business? I don&#039 ; t think so. I cannot address that directly. But, you know, they seemed to understand. They wor--you know, when I would talk with people on the phone, no issue. &quot ; Tha that&#039 ; s no pro&quot ; Totally different times of running business. There were no computers. There were no fax machines. Well, later on there became a fax machine. Uh, you know, no email, no instant message, no any of that, where you expect, you know, instant gratification like you have today. Uh, I think that&#039 ; s one of the things that helps keep me grounded a little bit, is that, uh, I&#039 ; m able to work with that but that doesn&#039 ; t control me, as much. Because I don&#039 ; t need as much instant gratification as a lot of my customers need. Uh, my kids seem to want it but they seem to understand. And they&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; re working through that and becoming much less of the instant gratification type. And, uh--and I think that&#039 ; s to a--to the good. CRANE: Looking back on your life, what, if anything, would you change about your relationship with Judaism? WIDES: This is on the record too. Uh, I would have demanded that the kids be raised Jewish. I regret that to this day. I think it would have made them a lot more grounded. Because it somewhat leaves them wandering, with--l lacking that identity or any identity. Uh, that&#039 ; s my mistake. And I&#039 ; ll have to live with that. Uh, they&#039 ; ve turned out to be pretty good people. But I think it could&#039 ; ve been so much better, in certain respects. Uh, I know one of, uh, Brandon&#039 ; s closest friends was, uh, Alicia Rose. They talked all the time--never dated. Uh, they were like brother and sister. And I think, uh--I think that&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s my biggest regret. CRANE: Is there anything else that you would like to share, that I haven&#039 ; t already asked you about, that this is Jewish history of central Kentucky, Lexington? WIDES: Y yes, a little bit about, uh, you know, growing up here in Lexington, fifty years ago, sixty years ago, and being Jewish here, uh, today. The business climate has totally changed. Uh, you have a lot of--there were a lot of values, I think, within the Jewish community, specifically in the Jewish business community, that poured over into other, uh, outside businesses, you know, gentile businesses, if you will, uh, that helped drive those businesses with things like compassion and understanding. Uh, you don&#039 ; t have that today. It&#039 ; s just--it&#039 ; s just everybody thinks everything&#039 ; s supposed to be black and white. And it&#039 ; s not all black and white. There&#039 ; s lots of grays. CRANE: And why do you think those Jewish businesses had that impact on the larger business community? WIDES: I think because of the--the values that they had growing up, the work ethic that they inherited from their parents--inherited from their parents. Uh, and it wasn&#039 ; t just--You know, going along with work ethic and, uh, family ethics an and relationship, uh, it all intertwined. And I don&#039 ; t think, to a great extent, it does that anymore, anywhere, in the society that we&#039 ; re in. Uh--I wish it did but CRANE: That&#039 ; s an interesting perspective. Uh, Mark, this has been lovely. I&#039 ; ve really enjoyed spending time with you and hearing, uh WIDES: --we should do it more often CRANE: --yeah! WIDES: --off the record. CRANE: Off the record. (clears throat). I agr WIDES: Vonne wou--Vonne would love to meet you. CRANE: That would be great. I would like to meet her. WIDES: We would go have a glass of wine, or maybe a bottle or two. CRANE: Thank you, so much, for doing this. WIDES: Thank you for allowing me the time. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh047_jk015_wides_ohm.xml 2016oh047_jk015_wides_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh047_jk015_wides_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mark Wides, March 18, 2016 Description An account of the resource Wides describes his family history and relations in Kentucky. He provides a history of the Wides Scrap Metals company, established in 1946 after his father returned from World War II. He got a loan from his grandmother and opened the business with his brother, Ed Wides. He shares some photos from the original Wides Scrap Metal company, and talks about the process of collecting and processing scrap metal. Wides describes his experience growing up Jewish, including his connections to the larger Jewish community through summer camps in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and New York. Although he used to be involved with Temple Adath Israel, including teaching Sunday school, he is not as active anymore. He remembers the holidays with his family and celebrating the holidays with his Gentile friends. Wides describes his experience as a Jew at the University of Kentucky during the turbulent era of the 1970s, and his role in the establishment of the Jewish fraternity Alpha Epsilon Pi. Wides describes his life as a Jew in Lexington, his involvement in the Jewish community which included a tenure on the board of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, and his children's relationship to Judaism. Although the Lexington community was relatively open to the Jewish community, Wides describes the range of his family's attitudes, from delight to hostile, towards his marriage to his wife, who is not Jewish. Wides describes how the Lexington community has become more accepting of the Jewish community, particularly in business. He also explains how Jewish values employed in Jewish businesses, such as compassion, a strong work ethic, and a balance between work and family, has permeated to non-Jewish businesses. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh047_jk015_wides Subject The topic of the resource Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Discrimination. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Jews--Identity. University of Kentucky Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/bed18463313902f4bc6c47b4f915d149.jpeg ef8be14553e8ef41363e9ec06ce2c363 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Janice Doctrow Interview Keyword Jewish businesspeople Small business--Ownership Jewish children Indiana University OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh026_jk014 Interview with Janis Doctrow, March 7, 2016 2016oh026_jk014 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) University of Kentucky Greek letter societies. College students--Religious life Jews--Identity. Family histories. Worship (Judaism) Jewish businesspeople Small business--Ownership Jewish children Indiana University Janice Doctrow Janice Crane 1:|21(7)|51(14)|82(3)|109(5)|143(9)|163(11)|200(4)|230(9)|246(9)|270(7)|299(3)|318(11)|346(13)|374(1)|387(14)|409(14)|430(2)|452(14)|480(15)|501(10)|520(3)|539(5)|558(8)|577(11)|605(16)|633(4)|653(1)|672(2)|698(4)|721(9)|740(8)|770(5)|787(12)|816(2)|836(4)|862(7)|876(2) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253339052&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family and upbringing Uh, for official purposes, today is March 7th, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane. And I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, which is funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I’m honored to be here today with Janis Weisenberg Doctrow. Janis (Gay) Weisenberg Doctrow was born at Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky on October 2nd, 1934. Her grandfather immigrated from Germany and her grandmother was born in St. Louis. They moved to many different cities while they were raising Janice's mother and her eleven siblings including Louisville, Shelbyville, and Owenton, Kentucky. Her parents worked in the Owenton Department Store in Owenton, Kentucky that was owned by her grandparents. She also names her husband, David Louis Doctrow, and her five children. Cincinnati (Ohio) ; David Louis Doctrow ; Georgetown (Ky.) ; Good Samaritan Hospital (Lexington, Ky.) ; Janis (Gay) Weisenberg Doctrow ; Jeffrey Alan Doctrow ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Martha Jacob Steinberg ; Matt Douglas Doctrow ; Mindy Sue Heller ; Owenton (Ky.) ; Owenton Department Store ; Pamela Doctrow Gould ; Reuben Weisenberg ; Robert Mark Doctrow. ; Rosalyn Abraham Wiesenberg ; Shelbyville (Ky.) ; St. Louis (Mo.) Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.536456, -84.8418926 17 Owenton, Kentucky 314 Family's relationship to Judaism How would you describe your parents’, both your mother and father’s, relationship to Judaism? Janis' s father was orthodox and her mother was reform. The family would primarily only drive to Lexington for holiday services because of the distance from Owenton where they lived. She discusses some of the Jewish practices of her family, and names some of her many relatives. Janis's large extended family played a significant role in her Jewish upbringing because of the large family gatherings for Jewish holidays. Anti-Semitism ; Barney Miller ; Bernie Milller ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Clifford Abraham ; Edward Abraham ; Gertrude Abraham ; Harry Abraham ; High Holidays ; Isidore Abraham ; Julius Abraham ; Kosher ; Lerman's Department Store ; Lexington Dairy ; Louis Abraham ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Morris Abraham ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Owenton (Ky.) ; Passover Seder ; Purim ; Shelbyville (Ky.) ; Shelbyville High School ; Sunday School ; Temple Adath Israel ; Yiddish Family histories. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Worship (Judaism) 38.2120144, -85.22356660000003 17 Shelbyville, Kentucky 828 College years and Phi Sigma Sigma at the University of Kentucky, 1952-1956 Well, where did you go to university? Janis Doctrow attended Indiana University for her first year of college but when her close group of friends all transferred or moved back home, she decided to do the same. In her second year of college she attended the University of Kentucky where she joined the Phi Sigma Sigma sorority. She discusses the different aspects of her Jewish student life including her membership in Hillel, meeting other Jewish students, and the activities of the sorority which she became president of in 1956. Alan Blumfield ; Anne Leah Ruby ; Connie Goldberg ; Erle Levy ; George Spector ; Hillel ; Inez Ringel ; Jerry Bohn ; Jewell Hall ; Keeneland Hall ; Marty Solomon ; Owenton (Ky.) ; Panhellenic Council ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Phil Frost ; Social work ; Sorority rush ; Student Union ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Indiana University ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 38.0306511, -84.50396969999997 17 University of Kentucky http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt734t6f2721/data/0346/0346.pdf Phi Sigma Sigma The Kentuckian, 1956 1495 Jewish life in Lexington, Kentucky Um, we haven’t really talked about this but how did you meet your husband? Janis met her husband, David Louis Doctrow, on a blind date in Cincinnati and they continued to live there for 10 years after they were married. After Cincinnati, they moved back to Lexington, Kentucky where they raised their family. Janis and her husband were involved with the Jewish community in different capacities throughout their lives including as presidents of the men's and women's associations at Ohavay Zion Synagogue, B'nai Brith, and many others. She concludes by naming some of her Jewish relatives in the Lexington community. B'nai B'rith ; Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Betty Miller ; Camp Shalom ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Confirmation ; Council of Jewish Women ; Gertrude Abraham ; Hadassah ; Harriet Rose ; Ida Rosen ; Ida Waldman ; Israel ; Jay Abraham ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish youth group ; JN Shoes ; Kosher ; Lowell Doctrow ; Morris Rosen ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Richmond (Ky.) ; Sunday school ; Temple Adath Israel ; Zionism Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 37.9986288, -84.47181260000002 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue interview Janis (Gay) Weisenberg Doctrow was born at Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky. Her grandfather immigrated from Germany and her grandmother was born in St. Louis. Her parents later worked in the Owenton Department Store in Owenton, Kentucky that was owned by her grandparents. Janis' s father was orthodox and her mother was reform. She discusses some of the Jewish practices of her family, and says that her large extended family played a significant role in her Jewish upbringing because of the large family gatherings for Jewish holidays. Janis Doctrow attended Indiana University for her first year of college. In her second year she attended the University of Kentucky where she joined the Phi Sigma Sigma sorority. She discusses the different aspects of her Jewish student life including her membership in Hillel, meeting other Jewish students, and the activities of the sorority which she became president of in 1956. Janis met her husband, David Louis Doctrow, on a blind date in Cincinnati and they continued to live there for 10 years after they were married. After Cincinnati, they moved back to Lexington, Kentucky where they raised their family. Janis and her husband were involved with the Jewish community in different capacities throughout their lives including as presidents of the men's and women's associations at Ohavay Zion Synagogue, B'nai Brith, and many others. CRANE: Uh, for official purposes, today is March 7th, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane. And I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, which is funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I&#039 ; m honored to be here today with Janis Weisenberg Doctrow. While I don&#039 ; t really know exactly how it happened, I do know that my mother, Martha Jacob Steinberg, and your mother, Rosalyn Abraham Weisenberg-- DOCTROW: --um-hm-- CRANE: --uh, were longtime playmates and friends. So I especially look forward to hearing more about your family. And perhaps I can figure out how our mothers&#039 ; longtime friendship began, while we record your story for others, so that they can hear. And I know you brought some pictures, so, uh, we won&#039 ; t get to &#039 ; em right yet but, when we start talking about, uh, the sorority, you can show that and, when we start talking about your family, you can tell us a little bit about what you-- DOCTROW: --okay-- CRANE: --what you brou-- Uh, what was your name at birth? DOCTROW: T-- I have to tell ya? CRANE: No. DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: Yeah. DOCTROW: Janis Gay--my grandchildren love that Gay part--Weisenberg. CRANE: And it&#039 ; s spelled G-e-y. Is, uh--? DOCTROW: G-a-y. CRANE: G-a-y. Okay. Uh, and when and where were you born? DOCTROW: Uh, Good Samaritan Hospital, in Lexington, October the second, 1934. CRANE: Oh! I was born at Good Sam, as well. Uh, I know that both your parents have passed away. Uh, but, for the record, where were your--what were your parents&#039 ; names and where were they from and where did they grow up? DOCTROW: My mother&#039 ; s name was Rosalyn Abraham Weisenberg. And she was born in Shelbyville, Kentucky, in 1910. And she g-- Uh, I think she lived there until she was outta high school. And then eventually they moved to Lexington. CRANE: Okay. And your father? DOCTROW: My father was Reuben Weisenberg. Oh, he didn&#039 ; t have a middle name, I don&#039 ; t think. He was born in 1911. He was born in Cincinnati. And I think they lived in Georgetown for a while, when he was younger. And then eventually they needed him in--in their business, so he went and moved to Owenton, Ken-- They lived in Lexington for a short while. Then he moved to Owenton, Kentucky. CRANE: Your father&#039 ; s family lived in Lexington. DOCTROW: Uh, no, my mother and father-- CRANE: --oh-- DOCTROW: --lived in Lexington. CRANE: Okay. Uh-- DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: And you said &quot ; the business.&quot ; What were their occupations? DOCTROW: Uh, my mother helped with the family business but she didn&#039 ; t really have an occupation, I guess. She would help dress the windows at Christmastime. And she worked in the store on Saturday. CRANE: And where was the store and what was it? DOCTROW: Well, Owenton Department Store, in Owenton, Kentucky. They carried women&#039 ; s, men&#039 ; s, children&#039 ; s, dresses, coats, suits, you name it. That&#039 ; s what they had. And, uh, I think, when I was in the first grade, they moved to Owenton. And I lived there from there on. CRANE: Huh. Did your, uh, parents&#039 ; and your grandparents&#039 ; names change, when they came to America? DOCTROW: Not that I know of. My mother&#039 ; s father was a stowaway, from Germany. He came over here when he was fourteen years old. And, uh -- uh, and I think my mom and dad both had the same name. CRANE: And how did your family arrive in Kentucky? DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: Who brought your family here, your--? DOCTROW: I don&#039 ; t know. My grandfather was from Germany. He married my grandmother. She was from St. Louis. Uh-- CRANE: This is your paternal-- DOCTROW: --no, this is my mother&#039 ; s. CRANE: Y-- Okay. DOCTROW: And they lived in St. Louis for a short while. &#039 ; Cause their first child was born there. They had twelve children. The next three were born in Louisville and the next eight were born in Shelbyville. So at some point there, they moved to Shelbyville. He was in the meat business. He had a--I don&#039 ; t know if you call it a-- Well, he sold different kinds of meat. I guess he had a--whatever kinda house you sell any kinda meat in, in Shelbyville. And I do know that, when they moved there, uh, half o&#039 ; them were still at home but they had to live in two houses, because they couldn&#039 ; t find a big enough house (Janice C. laughs) to live in. And their original house, that they built while they were waiting, is still there-- CRANE: --oh, wow!-- DOCTROW: --on the corner of Washington Avenue, in Shelbyville. CRANE: Uh, do you have siblings? And, if so, what are their names? And if, uh-- DOCTROW: --just me. CRANE: It was just you. Okay. And what is your husband&#039 ; s name and the names and ages of your children and grandchildren? DOCTROW: Oh, goodness. Now you&#039 ; re really pushin&#039 ; it. CRANE: That&#039 ; s a test. DOCTROW: Hm? CRANE: That&#039 ; s a test. DOCTROW: Okay. David Louis Doctrow. What&#039 ; d you want to know? Just his name? CRANE: And you ju-- Okay. That&#039 ; s your husband&#039 ; s name. DOCTROW: Okay. CRANE: And your children&#039 ; s names. DOCTROW: Okay. I have Mindy, Mindy Heller--uh, she&#039 ; s married n--Mindy Sue Heller, Jeffrey Alan Doctrow, Matt Douglas Doctrow, uh, Pamela Doctrow Gould, and Robert Mark Doctrow. CRANE: Okay. And as you said, some of them are in Louisville--? DOCTROW: Two are in Louisville. Three are in Lexington. CRANE: Okay. How would you describe your parents&#039 ; , both your mother and father&#039 ; s relationship to Judaism? DOCTROW: My dad&#039 ; s family was Orthodox. They belonged to the synagogue in Lexington. My grand--my mother&#039 ; s family were very reformed and they belonged to the temple. And we would come to Lexington on the holidays and I would go to temple the night before, with my mom--and sometimes my dad would go with us--and then I&#039 ; d go the next day, with my dad and my grandmother, to the synagogue. CRANE: Well, now, that was interesting. Uh, what was Judaism in your family like, growing up? How did it figure into your life? DOCTROW: Well, we lived like sixty miles away. So I think I did start in Sunday school here, one--maybe for one year or two. But, uh, uh, we just came on holidays. It wasn&#039 ; t easy to come for anything else. Like we came for the Purim. I remember we came for the Purim carnival at the synago-- And then we came on the High Holidays. And that&#039 ; s probably it. But we had a Seder. And, uh-- CRANE: --in Owenton?-- DOCTROW: --my grandmother kept kosher, in Owenton. My mother didn&#039 ; t. But they used to bring the food in from Cincinnati and Louisville. Because she had a very strict kosher house. CRANE: Your grandmother on your-- DOCTROW: --my father&#039 ; s mother-- CRANE: --father&#039 ; s side. DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: And he li--and she lived in Owenton, as well. DOCTROW: Yeah. CRANE: Okay. Uh, I know that, uh, at least your mother came from a very large family. DOCTROW: Yes. CRANE: Uh, you already alluded to that. Uh, if you cou-- DOCTROW: --don&#039 ; t ask me to name all twelve, uh. CRANE: I won&#039 ; t. DOCTROW: Uh, uh-- CRANE: But if you could elabor-elaborate a little bit on the largeness of that family and s--describe the impact that his large family had on your place in the Jewish community. Were they all from Lexington, they from central Kentucky? Where did they all settle? And how did this impact your growing up here? DOCTROW: Mostly--mostly Lexington and Louisville. They all settled right here, or in Louisville. CRANE: And not that you have to go through all the name but-- DOCTROW: --I could-- CRANE: --just for the record, can you just throw out a few of your family names, so that we can make connections? DOCTROW: Mrs. Barney Miller was my mother&#039 ; s sister. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: My other aunt was never married. Her name was Gertrude Abraham. And they--she had eight brothers. She had-- You want &#039 ; em? CRANE: Sure. DOCTROW: Okay. She had Harry Abraham, Isidore Abraham, Julius Abraham, Clifford Abraham, Morris Abraham--I don&#039 ; t know how many that is--Louis Abraham, Edward Abraham. I don&#039 ; t know if that&#039 ; s eight or not. I hope so. CRANE: That&#039 ; s good enough. DOCTROW: Okay. CRANE: Okay. Uh, what was the role of Jewish tradition in your childhood? Uh, like you said that you--you did Passover in Owenton and you came here on some holiday. DOCTROW: That was about it. Because in our little town, there was one couple who ran the Lerman&#039 ; s store. And there was one lady who was Jewish, who owned the movie. And we were the only Jewish people there, so there was never anything. And, uh, on Passover, we&#039 ; d have the Seder after the store closed, no matter what time o&#039 ; night it was. So. CRANE: And what was it like growing up in a small central Kentucky town, with relatively no other Jews? DOCTROW: I had a couple cousins there. But, uh, it was great. I loved it. I thought it was fun. I knew everybody and everybody knew us. But I didn&#039 ; t want to raise my children there. So-- CRANE: And how did the community react to you all being Jewish? DOCTROW: There was never a problem. One time, when I was walking to school, I remember some boy got mad and called me a dirty Jew. That&#039 ; s the only time. I lived there from the time I was probably seven years old till I went away to college. That was the only thing I could think of. My dad was very well respected. CRANE: Uh, when you--when you came to Lexington, uh, were you connected with other Jewish children? I mean, did you have any other connected, besides--with the growing up Jewish during those years? Uh-- DOCTROW: You talkin&#039 ; about when I came to college? CRANE: No, not yet. DOCTROW: Okay. CRANE: But just during high school, did you--uh, did you go to Louisville, Cincinnati, Lexington-- DOCTROW: --no-- CRANE: --for social occasions? DOCTROW: We came to the Purim, is--uh, every year. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: I remember that. But, no, not really. CRANE: And what did your family-- DOCTROW: --well-- CRANE: --teach you about Judaism? And how did whatever you learned impact the choices in your life? DOCTROW: Well, impacted that fact that I better marry somebody Jewish, or else. And, uh, it worked out that way. But, uh, it was just--growin&#039 ; up, it was right there. And my grandmother kept kosher. And I went there every day for lunch. She lived up the street from the school. And I was afraid to mix up her silverware. And they spoke Yiddish. My--my husband still does. My hu--my father did, my grandparents. And I guess that was about it. Because there was nowhere else to go. CRANE: What was your most vivid memory of Jewish life or ritual, growing up? DOCTROW: Growing up? CRANE: Um-hm. DOCTROW: Probably the Passover Seders. CRANE: What were they like? DOCTROW: Well, we&#039 ; d have-- I had an aunt and uncle that lived there too. And they lived in the same house with my grandmother. So it was just mostly all family. There was never anybody from anywhere else. So--uh, see, we were all around a big table. And there was maybe ten or twelve people. And like I say, we didn&#039 ; t start till the store closed. Uh, it didn&#039 ; t matter time o&#039 ; the night it was. It got awfully late and we got hungry. (Janice C. laughs) But, uh, that was-- CRANE: --uh, you brought some--uh, a picture of Shelbyville. And before we go on to, uh, some of your more adult life, would you like to share the picture-- DOCTROW: --certainly-- CRANE: --and tell us a little bit about--? DOCTROW: Well, somebody wrote a history. It&#039 ; s a pictorial history of Shelby County, Kentucky. And in it, they tried to put all the families. And this is my mother&#039 ; s fa--mother and her mother and father and twelve children. She&#039 ; s the baby, sittin&#039 ; on the lap. And it says on the bottom that they were musically inclined. Her brothers had a band, I know, the eight of &#039 ; em. And they all played somethin&#039 ; . And, uh, a lot of &#039 ; em worked in the butcher shop, whatever you want to call it. And they all went to--they all, I guess, graduated from Shelbyville High School--most of &#039 ; em. CRANE: And that&#039 ; s your mother&#039 ; s-- DOCTROW: --that&#039 ; s my mother&#039 ; s fam-- CRANE: --mother&#039 ; s family. Uh-- DOCTROW: She&#039 ; s this little bitty one. CRANE: Cute. That&#039 ; s a large family. DOCTROW: Yeah. And I was an only child. And my grandmother used to tell me, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t tell all the boys you want twelve children, because you&#039 ; re gonna scare &#039 ; em all away.&quot ; CRANE: (laughs) Uh, before we get into your college and adult life-- DOCTROW: --uh-- CRANE: --is there anything else that&#039 ; s unique or that you&#039 ; d like to share about your family background or your childhood years? DOCTROW: No. I just--I had very good childhood years. Like I say, I knew everybody in Owenton. Everybody knew me. And it was just fun goin&#039 ; up and down the street and knowing everybody. CRANE: Do you know what the population was? DOCTROW: Twelve hundred. It still is. CRANE: Twelve hundred. DOCTROW: Um-hm. Very small family. And, uh, that-- Whenever we come to Lexington-- My mom was the baby, of course. So we&#039 ; d have to go visit everybody. So we&#039 ; d go house to house. And I just always thought it was fun. My uncles owned the Lexington Dairy. So I used to either go over there and watch &#039 ; em put the milk in the bottles or go to Bernie Miller&#039 ; s and listen to records--while my mother went shopping. CRANE: Uh-- I remember listening to records, in those little booths. DOCTROW: Um-hm. CRANE: Okay. Well, where did you go to university? DOCTROW: I started in Indiana. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: Uh, my family wanted me to go where there were more Jewish people. And a lotta the people that I was runnin&#039 ; around with, uh, in Owenton came to UK. So they felt that I should go elsewhere. And I had a cousin from Owenton that had gone to Indiana. So I went there for a year. And I made four good friends. Uh, we were--all ran around in a little group. (Janis D. clears her throat) One was a set o&#039 ; twins. One was a girl from Louisville. The twins were from Cincinnati. And the other girl was from, uh--well, somewhere down in Kentucky. So we all became good friends. And we all went back the second year. At midterm, the one girl came down with mono. So her mother came and got her and took her home. Girl from Louisville was homesick, so she went home. The twins from Cincinnati decided they were leaving too. So I called up and I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m comin&#039 ; home--if I&#039 ; m going to college.&quot ; So after a year and a half, I came back to the University of Kentucky. CRANE: Okay. And, uh, what year was that, when you started university? DOCTROW: Fifty-two-- Probably fifty-four. CRANE: And what did you study? DOCTROW: Social work. CRANE: And what year did you graduate? DOCTROW: Nineteen fifty-six. CRANE: Okay. Uh, what were your living c-accommodations at the university? DOCTROW: Okay. I moved into Jewell Hall first. And I had a Jewish roommate. And next door there was one room that was bigger. And it had its own little bathroom. And there were four Jewish girls in there. And that was a half a year. Then when that year was over, I moved into the bigger room, with the four Jewish girls. And--and then, my senior year, they built Keeneland Hall. So I moved over to Keeneland. Now, in Jewell, they tried to keep the Jewish girls together. We just had a little corner of the r--of the floor. Keeneland, well, I honestly don&#039 ; t know if there were any other Jewish kids. I never really met &#039 ; em. And then I had a friend come from New York, my senior year. And we--we are still good friends and see each other. And they put her somewhere else. And she--her family knew somebody who knew somebody and they said she needed to be where there were some Jewish kids. So they moved her on our floor. So there were four of us in--across the hall and her. So there were like five Jewish girls each year, I guess, that I was with. That was it. CRANE: Describe a day in your life, as a college student. What did you do? Where did you go? Uh-- DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: Where did you eat or study? What did you to relax? DOCTROW: Well, we a--we ate in the mess hall, and whatever hall we were supposed to eat in. And we went to the Student Union a lot. And we went to classes. And we did homework. And nothin&#039 ; special, I don&#039 ; t think. We went to the ballgames, you know, whatever activities there were. CRANE: And what was it like, uh, socially, as a stu--uh, student at UK-- DOCTROW: --well-- CRANE: --or a Jewish student? DOCTROW: --yeah--we--we mixed, with the ZBT fraternity. They had us o-- every Friday they had a different girl over to bless the candles and have dinner with &#039 ; em in the fraternity house. And they would--they would call an invite you. And-- CRANE: --interesting. DOCTROW: Yeah, that was interesting. And then, uh, you know, I guess we had a few things together but not a lot. I mean, people dated people. But there weren&#039 ; t that many. There were maybe ten girls and I don&#039 ; t know how many guys. CRANE: Um, there was this--you were a member of sorority--a Jewish sorority on campus. DOCTROW: Phi Sigma Sigma. CRANE: And when did that start? Uh, what was it like? DOCTROW: Well, it was already here when I got here. And it was very small. I think we had eight, at the most, p--when I left. And I don&#039 ; t know when it started. But I know, not too long after that, it just kinda disappeared. CRANE: Where was it located? Or where did you meet? DOCTROW: In the residence hall or in the, uh, Student Union. CRANE: So you didn&#039 ; t have an actual house. DOCTROW: No. And we actually-- We had a friend here in town, Dolores Levy, who was like, I guess the advisor. She and Phyllis Scherer helped us out a little bit. And we--we met some at Dolores&#039 ; s house. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: That was it. CRANE: Uh, do you know--? So it appears like, from some o&#039 ; the background, uh, that I have found, that it began in 1952. Uh, and-- DOCTROW: --I honestly don&#039 ; t know. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: I probably have it somewhere. But I really don&#039 ; t-- CRANE: --and you don&#039 ; t have any recollection of what happened to it? D--it just--? DOCTROW: No. They&#039 ; ve contacted some of us, once or twice over the years. It seems like somebody was interested in tryin&#039 ; to restart it. But it never worked out. CRANE: And why did you affiliate with the s--this particular sorority? DOCTROW: It was the only Jewish one. And I thought it was a way to meet people. And that was the thing to do. So. CRANE: And do you recall some of your sorority sisters, their names? Uh-- DOCTROW: Before they were married? Yeah. CRANE: Uh-hm. DOCTROW: Uh, Connie Goldberg, uh, Maur--uh, Dolore--not Dolores--Laurie--Levy , uh, Inez Ringel--they were all younger than me--Anne Leah Ruby. You got me. CRANE: That&#039 ; s okay. How did the sorority interact with the other Greek organizations, uh, Jewish organizations and non-Jewish organizations? DOCTROW: Well, the non-Jewish organizations-- Uh, we had a representative on Hillel. But the only thing we ever really did was, when they had, uh, rush and the girls had to come to claim which sorority they got in, they had us run that, because we weren&#039 ; t, uh, running for or against anybody. So we gave out the bids on--at the sorority time, just to help out, you know. I guess they couldn&#039 ; t ask them to do it, so we did it--and got &#039 ; em-- The girls got a little upset--not our girls, the other girls, that were coming for the bids. So we had to tell them--or they&#039 ; ll--show them that they didn&#039 ; t make the sorority they wanted--or that they did. DOCTROW: But that was really--that all and the Panhellenic Council. CRANE: But your sorority was on that council. DOCTROW: Yeah. CRANE: Okay. Uh, and what about the fraternities? You mentioned that they-- When you were talking about them inviting you over to the ZBT house, were you talking about a sorority--uh, one of the--the girls from the soror--? DOCTROW: --well, usually. &#039 ; Cau--almost everybody--except my friend that came from New York, almost everybody else belonged to the sorority, there were so--uh, such a little group. CRANE: Hm. Uh, and were y--were there--at that time, were there Jewish girls in the other sororities, the--the--? DOCTROW: --I don&#039 ; t think so. We did, uh--we did do s--a few things, like, you know, attend some Hillel meetings. But that was about it. CRANE: Were they accepting of Jews in the other sororities or fraternities, then? DOCTROW: I honestly don&#039 ; t know. I mean, the only people I actually knew, mostly, when I got here, were the people, if they were in our dorm, on our floor, that weren&#039 ; t Jewish. But we never interacted that much with the others. CRANE: What other student organizations were you active in on campus? You mentioned Hillel. DOCTROW: I think there might be one or two in that book. It said somethin&#039 ; on the bottom. I hate to say I don&#039 ; t remember but-- CRANE: --that&#039 ; s okay-- DOCTROW: --I don&#039 ; t. I did see somethin&#039 ; in here. Uh, it said I was president o&#039 ; the sorority, uh, and vice president of Hillel. I didn&#039 ; t remember that. And one o&#039 ; the girls was vice president of the Junior Panhellenic. Uh, I guess that&#039 ; s all. I think I did belong to a social work group, uh. CRANE: What did Hillel do? Uh, what were some o&#039 ; the activities? DOCTROW: Not a lot. We just--they&#039 ; d just get together maybe once a month or once every other month. It was a very small group. Not very well attended. CRANE: And did you get together and have dinner or--? DOCTROW: I honestly don&#039 ; t remember. I&#039 ; m sure there was food involved. There&#039 ; s always food involved. CRANE: Okay. How did your time at UK impact your Jewish identity? DOCTROW: Well, yeah, I gue--it made it stronger. Because it was the first time I really was involved with that many Jewish people. When I went to Indiana-- Well, I was--the-- CRANE: --uh-- DOCTROW: --the girls I was with were Jewish. But I was there such a short time. And they--we didn&#039 ; t go to Hillel. So-- CRANE: --what was Jewish life in Lexington like, when you were a student at UK? And did you have interaction outside of the campus? DOCTROW: Uh, yeah, like through the temple. Sometimes they&#039 ; d have things and invite the Jewish students or-- DOCTROW: We didn&#039 ; t have a lot but, uh-- I&#039 ; m trying to remember. That&#039 ; s--good question. Uh, I remember goin&#039 ; to a couple big dances and things. So they must have invited-- I know the fraternity had parties. And when they had their big dances, some o&#039 ; the local people, that I guess had been, uh, involved with the fraternity--some o&#039 ; the local Jewish people came to the, uh, ZBT things. And that was probably the most of it. CRANE: Do you remember some o&#039 ; the, uh, fraternity members from ZBT? DOCTROW: Do I? CRANE: Um-hm. DOCTROW: Um-hm. You want to--? CRANE: --sure! Any special ones? DOCTROW: Uh, a lot o&#039 ; -- You do-- You mean just from Lexington? Or you mean--? Uh, they were from other places. There was a Gerry Bond. There was Phil Frost. There was, uh, George Spector. There was Alan Blumfield. And I think--I think Erle Levy belonged to the fraternity. There was, uh, Marty Solomon. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: There was-- Uh-- CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: The rest of &#039 ; em, uh, probably were from outta town. CRANE: Uh, we haven&#039 ; t really talked about this but how did you meet your husband? DOCTROW: On a blind date, in Cincinnati. CRANE: When you were in college or after--? DOCTROW: --uh, my senior year, the--the summer before my senior year. CRANE: And who fixed you up? DOCTROW: A cousin. CRANE: Okay. Uh, describe your Jewish life after college. Did you remain in Lexington? Did you raise your children here? DOCTROW: No. I got married right after-- Let&#039 ; s see. I graduated in May. I got married the following October. We lived in Cincinnati for ten years. And then, after ten years, we moved to Lexington. So, uh-- CRANE: --and what brought you back here? DOCTROW: My dad&#039 ; s businesses. They needed somebody to run--he had shoe stores in Richmond, needed somebody to manage and run those. So we picked up with-- I had five children under the age of eight. The baby was six weeks old. And we picked up and moved to Lexington. CRANE: Oh, goodness. DOCTROW: And when I arrived here, I had five aunts waiting at my new house for me, with food. So I had a lot of family here. CRANE: Uh, what was your father&#039 ; s business in Richmond? DOCTROW: Shoe stores, JN Shoes. CRANE: Okay! Uh, describe Judaism in your home, as an adult and as a parent--your home. DOCTROW: My home? Well, we tried to raise our children Jewish. And they went to Sunday school. They were all--four outta the five were bar and bat mitzvahed. They were all confirmed. And, uh, we--we celebrated all the holidays. We still do. Course, it&#039 ; s always at my house. And we have a big crowd. There&#039 ; s twenty-two of us. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: So, uh-- It&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s still about the same. It&#039 ; s just that they&#039 ; re s--a little more scattered now. So we don&#039 ; t get &#039 ; em all home as often. We have twelve grandchildren, three sets of twins. And-- CRANE: --twelve seems to run in your family. DOCTROW: Yeah. Uh, yeah. My mom was the twelfth child. I&#039 ; m a twelfth grandchild. And I have twelve grandchildren. So maybe that&#039 ; s my lucky number. CRANE: Could be. Uh, how was your Jewishness, the way you raised your children, uh, what you did in your home different from that of your parents? DOCTROW: Well, it was different because, uh, you know, Dave and I attended everything at the temple, when they were little. And he was president o&#039 ; the Brotherhood. And I was president o&#039 ; the Sisterhood. So our kids were raised entirely different. Because there was no way for me to be raised--except for the holidays and keeping kosher, for my grandmother. There was no other way, except to keep tellin&#039 ; me I was Jewish. (laughs) CRANE: And, uh, you were members of the temple? DOCTROW: Yeah-- CRANE: Not the synagogue. DOCTROW: --from the time we moved here. This--this&#039 ; ll be fifty years we&#039 ; ve been in Lexington. CRANE: And how did your children feel about their Jewishness in Lexington? Were they active in the Jewish community? DOCTROW: Yeah. They were all in the--the youth group at the temple. And, uh, they attended, you know, every carnival and every youth group event. They went outta town on conclaves with the youth group. And they interacted-- CRANE: --uh-- DOCTROW: --very well. I mea-- CRANE: --were there any challenges, uh, that you experienced raising your Jewish children in Lexington? DOCTROW: No, not really. I mean, our three best--three closest friends are Jewish. And their kids were all about the same age. So most of--a lotta what we did on holidays and things was with those families. CRANE: Did you--did your children experience any antisemitism, in Kentucky, growing up in Lexington? DOCTROW: Not that I remember. They had more with people at the bus stop and-- Couple o&#039 ; those were Jewish. But, no, there&#039 ; s nothin&#039 ; that I can remember. CRANE: And how does your relationship to, uh, Judaism compare to that of your children&#039 ; s now? Are they raising their children Jewish or--? DOCTROW: Yeah. Let&#039 ; s see. Four of them--four of them married. Three married Jewish. Uh, the ones with the children, they&#039 ; re, uh--they&#039 ; ve all been raised--bar mitzvahed, bat mitzvahed, going-- The little ones are s--in Sunday school now, at the temple. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: They go from seven to twenty-seven. So-- CRANE: --wow!-- DOCTROW: --we got a bunch. CRANE: Yeah, you do. DOCTROW: But they&#039 ; re all, uh-- You know, they&#039 ; ve all been raised Jewish. And they know they&#039 ; re Jewish. And that&#039 ; s one reason we&#039 ; ve had all the holidays at our house. So. CRANE: How has your Judaism and your practices changed, over--over the years? DOCTROW: Well, I guess you&#039 ; d say it slowed down. I mean, we don&#039 ; t go to temple as much as we used to. In fact, we--we really don&#039 ; t go that often. I mean, we go durin&#039 ; the year and for the holidays. But we don&#039 ; t go to every event, like we used to. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: But I guess you&#039 ; d say it slowed down a lot. But our fa--our family-- Let&#039 ; s see. Outta the four in Lexington--no, three in Lexington, two belong to the temple. The two that are in Louisville are much more active. My son Lowell was just president o&#039 ; the temple in Louisville. So they&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; ve raised their children completely Jewish too. CRANE: How is the role of Israel and Zionism, uh, in your activities and your identity as a Jew. What is it? Uh-- DOCTROW: It&#039 ; s not a lot. Dave belongs to B&#039 ; nai B&#039 ; rith-- CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: --and the Brotherhood at the temple. And I belong to the Sisterhood. But that&#039 ; s about all, at this point. CRANE: And what about Hadassah? You&#039 ; ve been-- DOCTROW: --I&#039 ; ve never been a member of Hadassah. My grandmother was. She was a life member. CRANE: And-- DOCTROW: --that was a long time ago-- CRANE: --do you have any kind o&#039 ; relationship with the Federation--uh, the Jewish Federation? DOCTROW: Well, I was on the first committee to--started Camp Shalom, the steering committee. CRANE: What was that like? DOCTROW: It was great, gettin&#039 ; it started. And, uh, the-- David works after the, uh, new rabbi at the temple. His mother was on that committee with me. CRANE: Oh, that&#039 ; s interesting. DOCTROW: And, uh, we worked hard. And it&#039 ; s turned out pretty well. My kids have all-- One year, I had seven kids at Camp Shalom. I had a--the assistant director, a junior counselor. And all the little ones were there. So we have supported it, still, over the years. CRANE: Do you see, uh, the Jewish leadership in Lexington--how it&#039 ; s changed over time? Or do you still--uh, do you see a--a leadership in Lexington? DOCTROW: I think it&#039 ; s changed quite a bit. I think-- Of course, I&#039 ; d say there&#039 ; s a lot younger people involved now. But I guess we were that age, when we were involved. But it seems to be a--maybe a stronger leadership. CRANE: Than it used to be? DOCTROW: Yeah. Because the Federation is here. It wasn&#039 ; t here. We used to have a strong Council of Jewish Women. It&#039 ; s not here anymore. CRANE: What was that? DOCTROW: It was just another organization. And, uh, we went and did plays at the schools and, uh-- CRANE: Was that a temple activity-- DOCTROW: --no-- CRANE: --or was it--? DOCTROW: --it was the Council of Jewish Women. CRANE: Huh. Uh-- DOCTROW: It was a similar group to Hadassah and the Sisterhood. CRANE: Not heard anyone mention-- DOCTROW: --well, it&#039 ; s been a long time. CRANE: How has where you&#039 ; ve grown up and how you have lived your adult life affected your relationship with Judaism? DOCTROW: It&#039 ; s kept me definitely with it, completely. I never thought of doin&#039 ; anything--or leaving anything--besides Judaism. My husband&#039 ; s from an Orthodox home. And, uh, of course he-he&#039 ; s probably stronger than I am on Judaism. But we--we&#039 ; ve been here a lotta years and raised a lotta kids. So. CRANE: Looking back, if there was anything that you could change--is there anything you could change about your relationship with Judaism? DOCTROW: Not really. It could have been stronger, I&#039 ; m sure. But between having all the kids and all the grandkids, we really haven&#039 ; t had a lotta time to do too much more. CRANE: Okay. Uh, is there anything else that you would like to share with us, that, uh, I haven&#039 ; t asked you about, something--maybe some stories about your family or--history or--? DOCTROW: I don&#039 ; t know. I think you&#039 ; ve kinda covered it. But, uh, like I said, my grandmother always told me, uh--had to marry a nice Jewish boy, and she&#039 ; d pay for the wedding. And I guess she did. She was a very tiny lady. And I had a lot of other relatives in Lexington. CRANE: Who were they? DOCTROW: My father was related to the Krausses and the Rosens. Uh, my-- Well, that was my--his mother, my grandmother on my fa--m--yeah, my grandmother on my father&#039 ; s side. Uh, Morris Rosen&#039 ; s mother was a sister. Uh, the Krauss family isn&#039 ; t here anymore but-- Tomter Krauss was a sister. So I grew up with a lot of family, in Lexington. CRANE: I know that my, uh, parents played poker with the Krauss-- DOCTROW: --probably-- CRANE: --uh-- DOCTROW: --and I think the-- CRANE: --a long time ago-- DOCTROW: --they had--she had seven children. So-- When we moved here, we couldn&#039 ; t go anywhere-- The people used to say, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t talk about anybody. Because they&#039 ; re related to everybody in town.&quot ; And we really were. CRANE: Uh, who all were you related to? DOCTROW: Both sides? CRANE: Um-hm. DOCTROW: Well, Harriet Rose, Vivien Marx, Jay Abraham, uh, Morris Rosen, Ida Rosen--&quot ; Ida Rosen&quot ; --Ida Waldman, uh--gosh--well, Betty--uh, Aunt Betty Miller, Gertrude Abraham. As I said, I had five aunts here. Shea Abraham were here at the time. You got me. But there were a lot of &#039 ; em. As I said, we could go to temple, we could go to the synagogue and, no matter where we went, there were relatives. So. CRANE: Do you have any idea how your mother and my mother became friends? DOCTROW: I know that they double-dated. And somewhere-- I&#039 ; m trying to find the picture. I just remember my mother talkin&#039 ; about your mother constantly, Martha, j-just little stories. And I can&#039 ; t remember the stories. But I know that they double-dated. And somewhere, there&#039 ; s pictures. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: And I will see if I can&#039 ; t find them. CRANE: I would like to see those. DOCTROW: Um-hm. They&#039 ; re cute. CRANE: I&#039 ; ll bet. DOCTROW: So. I guess they just met by bein&#039 ; here in Lexington. You know. I never got to those stories. CRANE: You mean--? Well, uh, this has been lovely. And I thank you, so much. DOCTROW: Well, you&#039 ; re very welcome. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh026_jk014_doctrow_ohm.xml 2016oh026_jk014_doctrow_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh026_jk014_doctrow_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Janis Doctrow, March 7, 2016 Description An account of the resource Janis (Gay) Weisenberg Doctrow was born at Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky. Her grandfather immigrated from Germany and her grandmother was born in St. Louis. Her parents later worked in the Owenton Department Store in Owenton, Kentucky that was owned by her grandparents. Janis' s father was orthodox and her mother was reform. She discusses some of the Jewish practices of her family, and says that her large extended family played a significant role in her Jewish upbringing because of the large family gatherings for Jewish holidays. Janis Doctrow attended Indiana University for her first year of college. In her second year she attended the University of Kentucky where she joined the Phi Sigma Sigma sorority. She discusses the different aspects of her Jewish student life including her membership in Hillel, meeting other Jewish students, and the activities of the sorority which she became president of in 1956. Janis met her husband, David Louis Doctrow, on a blind date in Cincinnati and they continued to live there for 10 years after they were married. After Cincinnati, they moved back to Lexington, Kentucky where they raised their family. Janis and her husband were involved with the Jewish community in different capacities throughout their lives including as presidents of the men's and women's associations at Ohavay Zion Synagogue, B'nai Brith, and many others. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh026_jk014 Subject The topic of the resource Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) University of Kentucky Greek letter societies. College students--Religious life Jews--Identity. Family histories. Worship (Judaism) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video