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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Leon Cooper
Interview Keyword
Race relations--United States
Race discrimination
Emigration and immigration.
African Americans--Relations with Jews.
Childhood
Racism
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Hospitals--Kentucky--Lexington
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh434_jk010 Interview with Leon Cooper, October 16, 2015 2015oh434_jk010 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Genealogy Discrimination United States. Navy. United States. Navy--Military life World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. Engineering Education Technological innovations International Business Machines Corporation. Lexington (Ky.) Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish businesspeople Religion Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Jews--Identity. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Race relations--United States Race discrimination Emigration and immigration. African Americans--Relations with Jews. Childhood Racism Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Hospitals--Kentucky--Lexington Leon Cooper Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|18(12)|44(7)|81(11)|92(3)|113(12)|146(8)|161(8)|180(6)|197(6)|217(1)|233(1)|252(5)|268(2)|277(5)|288(8)|297(8)|313(12)|335(10)|348(5)|364(14)|398(11)|413(4)|442(6)|451(1)|459(3)|476(10)|489(10)|508(11)|521(4)|532(3)|541(5)|561(13)|573(5)|594(8)|608(2)|618(8)|653(3)|674(2)|693(1)|707(15)|728(17)|757(1)|781(7)|793(7)|807(14)|821(9)|832(8)|847(6)|864(14)|881(5)|901(11)|910(6)|926(3)|934(9)|947(16)|966(10)|989(1)|1000(15)|1021(12)|1035(6)|1066(12)|1077(9)|1093(7)|1104(9)|1114(16)|1123(13)|1134(7)|1157(11)|1174(3)|1182(1)|1192(12)|1203(16)|1221(2)|1237(2)|1248(3)|1268(3)|1281(8)|1288(17)|1296(12)|1314(1)|1339(2)|1349(10)|1366(18)|1381(11)|1397(8)|1418(11)|1427(3)|1438(12)|1465(5)|1478(12)|1485(11)|1498(14)|1514(13)|1533(9)|1564(8)|1582(13)|1602(12) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253324613" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family information / background Hello, my name is Janice Fernheimer. Cooper describes his parents, his two siblings, his wife, and his three children. His father, Isadore Cooper, and mother, Dora Cooper, both grew up in shtetls in Eastern Europe and immigrated to the United States separately around 1919 and the early 1920s, respectively. They came to Norfolk, Virginia due to a family tie from his mother’s side. 1919 ; 1920 ; 1927 ; Cattle ; Cooper family ; Dora Cooper ; East European immigrants ; Family history ; Grocery stores ; Harriet Rudman ; Isadore Cooper ; Kiev (Ukraine) ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Norfolk (Va.) ; Parents ; Roksik (Lithuania) ; Shtetl Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Genealogy ; Livestock 36.8508, -76.2859 17 Norfolk (Va.) http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/shtetl-in-jewish-history-and-memory/ " ; Shtetl and Jewish History in Memory" ; . Background on what a shtetl was, what life was like the shtetls. 342 Naval service and Jewish identity in the Navy Um, and I understand that you were in the service? Was it the Navy? Is that correct? Cooper served in the Navy in 1945 and 1946 and was let out when the war was over to attend college. After graduating in 1950, he came back to serve another two years. Cooper talks about Jewish identity in relation to his Naval service and his reason for enlisting. He talks about giving up some aspects of kashrut but maintained parts of the practice such as not eating meat with milk. He discusses celebrating holidays while on duty and bonding with other Jewish navy men. Cooper retired from the Navy in 1968. 1945 ; 1946 ; 1950 ; 1952 ; 1968 ; Active duty ; Aircraft carriers ; Enlisted ; Hebrew ; Jewish ; Jews in the United States military ; Kashrut ; Kosher ; Ladino ; Lieutenant commanders ; Matzah ; Matzoh ; Military discrimination ; Military enlistment ; Military service ; Navy Reserves ; Norfolk (Va.) ; Passover ; World War 2 ; World War II ; WWII ; Yiddish ; Yom Kippur Discrimination ; United States. Navy--Military life ; United States. Navy. ; World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. 17 http://www.aleph-institute.org/history-of-jews-in-the-us-military.html " ; History of Jews in the US Military" ; 632 Involvement with IBM and word processing Wow. I’m going to switch gears a little bit. Cooper clarifies that while he was one of the first engineers on the team that developed the technology that opened up the doors for word processing, he was not involved with the invention of the IBM Selectric during his time at IBM. 1950 ; 1952 ; 1957 ; 1958 ; International Business Machines (IBM) ; Magtape Selectric Typewriter ; Mechanical engineering ; New York ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; Tom Eblen ; Typewriters ; VPI ; Word processing Engineering ; International Business Machines Corporation. 17 http://www.kentucky.com/news/business/article44485857.html Tom Eblen: IBM retiree tells how he helped invent word processing in Lexington 721 College and career outside of the Navy Um, but tell me a little bit about kind of those years in between, uh, your time in the, the service and then you went to college. Cooper went to school at Virginia Tech from 1946-1950 and studied mechanical engineering. After graduating in 1950 he went back into the Navy to serve for two more years before retiring from service. After his retirement, he decided to focus his career on his mechanical engineering background and applied for a position at IBM not knowing that IBM began transitioning from mechanical punch card equipment to computers in 1950. Colleges ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Virginia Tech Education ; Employment ; Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University 17 http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/ibm100/us/en/icons/selectric/ The Selectric Typewriter 804 IBM shifts focus to computers Well, it turns out, that 1950 is when IBM was transitioning from the mechanical card punching to computers. Cooper discusses the beginnings of word processing. He talks about the challenges typists would face when they wanted to create multiple copies of a document and how time consuming it was. They were hoping to create a typewriter that could record the keystrokes and allow the typist to more efficiently create copies of a document. The inventions were fairly successful but were soon superseded by other inventions and newer technology. IBM Selectric ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Inventions ; Jewish involvement in mechanization ; Mag tape ; Selectric ; Technology ; Typewriters ; Word processing International Business Machines Corporation. ; Technological innovations 17 https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/modelb/modelb_milestone.html Timeline of IBM typewriter milestones 1058 Move and transition to Lexington, Kentucky When did you move from Poughkeepsie to Lexington? Cooper moved to Lexington in March of 1958 with his wife and two children--his third child was born later in Lexington. The first thing Cooper looked for when coming to Lexington was a conservative synagogue because the absence of a synagogue would have been a deal breaker. The culture and atmosphere of the Lexington community was similar to the small community he experienced in Virginia. There were about 90,000 people living in Lexington during this time and the Jewish community was about 2,000. Many people came to Lexington for the Chandler Medical Center. Cooper transitions into a discussion of the Hadassah Medical Center and the Lexington Jewish community's interaction with both medical centers. 1958 ; Balls (dances) ; Chandler Hospital ; Chandler Medical Center ; Community involvement ; Dress balls ; Hadassah ; Hadassah Medical Organization ; Jewish businesses ; Marilyn Moosnick ; Move to Kentucky ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (OZS) (Lexington, Ky.) ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; Small businesses ; Small town life ; Synagogues ; Virginia Academic medical centers ; Hospitals--Kentucky--Lexington ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Medical care--Kentucky ; Religion 31.7662, 35.1494 17 Hadassah Medical Center, Ein Kerem (Jerusalem) http://www.hadassah-med.com/about/history History of Hadassah Medical Organization 1324 IBM and Japanese word processing I’m going to go back to the word processing just for a minute, cause I wonder, uh, uh, if you could tell me a little bit about the differences in Japanese and Chinese word processing? Cooper discusses working on a Japanese typewriter at IBM and the challenges they faced creating a type writer to print characters that were not alphanumeric and condensing a language with over 10,000 characters into a single keyboard. Cooper discusses cultural challenges they faced that may be the reason this invention never got past the experimental phase. 1970s ; Alphanumeric characters ; Chinese ; Code ; Culture ; Experimental ; Human Factors Group ; Inkjet printers ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Japanese ; Kanji characters ; Languages ; Typewriters ; Women Engineering ; International Business Machines Corporation. ; Technological innovations 17 1645 Retirement from IBM / starting QED Medical You were--you retired shortly--well, I don’t know about shortly, but a few--ten years later, right? Cooper retired from IBM in 1982 and immediately created his own company known as QED Medical--a medical technology company based in Lexington. While at IBM he was involved with some medical technology projects which is where he became enamored with medical work and even picked up a small side project creating a medical device for a surgeon. He used this experience as his motivation to create QED Medical. Cooper also discusses his children's involvement with the company. 1982 ; Businesses ; Competitors ; Family businesses ; Family involvement ; Medical research ; Medical technology ; QED Medical ; Retirement ; Small businesses ; Technology Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://www.qedisit.com/ QED Medical Website 2021 Involvement and leadership within the Lexington Jewish community Well, you've talked a little bit about your family’s involvement in the business, and I want to switch gears a bit, again. Cooper talks about his transition into the Lexington community and how his experiences in Poughkeepsie were not much different than Lexington. He talks about how he quickly got involved in synagogue affairs and leadership. He was President of the Synagogue on two separate occasions, he had leadership roles within the UJA, he and other members of the congregation collected bonds for Israel, and he was involved with the B’nai Brith organization. He explains that all of his service efforts have been within the Jewish community because there are enough people to do everything else. He wanted to put his efforts where they could do the most good and therefore sees these positions as the most important in his life. B'nai Brith ; Bonds ; Butcher shops ; Community involvement ; Hillel ; Israel ; Israel bonds ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kosher delis ; Leadership ; Ohavay Zion Synagagoue (OZS) (Lexington, Ky.) ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; President of the Synagagoue ; Small town life ; Synagogues ; United Jewish Appeal (UJA) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 37.9986, -84.4718 17 Ovahay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; http://doczz.net/doc/4160789/february-2016-bulletin---ohavay-zion-synagogue Ohavay Zion Synagogue bulletin from February 2016. Includes events that were held there in February. 2658 Establishing a Jewish Burial Society in Lexington One of the things that you did as part of that effort is to reestablish the chevra kadisha here. Cooper delves into reestablishing the chevra kadisha, or burial society. He talks about the need and importance of having this service in Lexington and what this service does for people. 1990 ; Burial societies ; Cemeteries ; Chevra kadisha ; Death ; Jewish cemeteries ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Kentucky ; Meyer's Funeral Home ; Rabbi Smith Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 17 https://d2sghkvizede3b.cloudfront.net/106/214/Shalom%25208-13web.pdf Shalom newsletter from the Jewish Federation of the bluegrass. Including an article called " ; The Jewish Cemetery in Lexington" ; that talks about the founding of the Chevra Kadisha. 3129 Raising Jewish children in 1960s Lexington Um, I’m going to come back to the family stuff again. Leon discusses challenges of raising Jewish children in Lexington, Kentucky, and the changes in society from then to now. He talks about going to his children's schools to teach their classes about Jewish customs ; religiously biased prayers in schools ; and the challenges they faced being conservative Jews in the bible belt. He has adopted an attitude that he can't do as much as he wishes to change attitudes towards Judaism, but does believe that different things are being done now to better accommodate Jewish students. 1950s ; 1960s ; 1970s ; Bible belt ; Challenges ; Children ; Christianity ; Christmas ; Conservative Judaism ; Easter ; Family life ; Family values ; Hannukah ; Jewish ; Jewish children ; Jewish Christmas ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Judaism ; Kids ; Rosh Hashanah ; Yom Kippur Education ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. 39.21586619999999, -84.4294327 17 Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass http://www.jewishlexington.org Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass 3310 Social events at Ohavay Zion Synagogue / changes within the community Um, can you tell me a little bit about the social events at OZ--that took place at OZS in the ’50s and ’70s? Cooper discusses various social events at OZS from the 1950s to the 1970s. Some examples include a Yom Kippur ball for the adults to celebrate Yom Kippur and a theatre group, The Center Players. All events were synagogue functions and not community functions. Cooper discusses why he thinks these kinds of events don't take place in the synagogue today. He also talks about how the Lexington Jewish community is diverse in terms of the kinds of Jewish congregations they accommodate (reform, conservative, orthodox) and how that is a strength of the community. He also talks about the organizations that are being created now to bring unity to the newer generations within the community and how with each rabbi things will change. 1960s ; 1970s ; A Gold We Got (Song) ; Anything Goes (Song) ; Breaking the fast ; Celebrations ; Chabad ; Conservative Judaism ; Jewish women ; Music ; My Fair Sadie (Song) ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (OZS) (Lexington, Ky.) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Rabbis ; Reform Judaism ; Shul ; Social events ; The Center Players ; Theater ; Women's roles ; Yom Kippur ; Yom Kippur ball ; Younger generations Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 17 https://fedweb-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/fed-67/2/MarchShalom2015web.pdf The link to an article on Harriet Cooper (Leon's deceased wife) and her involvement in the social events of the Lexington Jewish Community at OZS specifically. 3595 Camp Shalom and other Jewish organizations What about Federation? You were around when Federation was formed, right? Cooper discusses the beginnings of two important community organizations: Camp Shalom and Federation. Carol Wirtshafter was the first head of Camp Shalom and was a driving force in its creation. Soon after the camp was established they created Federation which would host forum speakers to talk to the community and supply money for the camp and other endeavors. Back then, Federation was run by volunteers and now they have paid professionals running the organization. 1970 ; Camp Shalom ; Central Kentucky Jewish Federation (CKJF) ; Community involvement ; Forum series ; Forum speakers ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Volunteer work Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 17 https://jewishlexington.org/camp-shalom Camp Shalom website 3747 Social and cultural differences within the Lexington Jewish community Another question, sort of back in the idea of these social circles. Cooper discusses how he is the first generation in his family born in America and everyone he knew growing up was as well. He was bewildered when he came to Lexington he met people who were fifth and sixth generation Jewish Americans but he found that the community was ready to accept everyone. The Lexington Jewish community, whether one belonged to the Temple or the Shul, made connections with each other. He also discusses how he met very few Yiddish speakers in Lexington. It was mostly the older men with whom he could speak Yiddish with. Community ; Cultural acceptance ; First generation ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (OZS) (Lexington, Ky.) ; Rafi Finkel ; Synagogues ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, Ky.) ; Yiddish ; Yiddish scholars Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 17 https://ingeveb.org/blog/digital-futures-the-great-hope-of-yiddish-ocr Interview with Rafi Finkel about the future and hope for the Yiddish language. 3968 Interfaith interactions What--this is a--moving a little in a different direction. Um, what was the non-Jewish community’s reaction to your Jewishness here in Lexington? Cooper discusses holding an education event in the 1960s for the non-Jewish community of Lexington to learn more about Jewish customs and holidays. It was put together in the circle where Cooper lived. Each Jewish family in the neighborhood would open up their homes and each was set up to represent a different holiday. It was highly successful and they had many people from churches who came to take the holiday tour. Church ; Community involvement ; Education ; Holidays ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holiday tours ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish tradition ; Lexington community ; Non-Jewish Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 17 http://www.kentucky.com/news/nation-world/national/article107475697.html Recent article in the Herald Leader explaining Yom Kippur and how to respect those observing the holiday to the general Lexington population 4134 Experiences with anti-Semitism Have you had any--or what have your experiences been with anti-Semitism? Cooper discusses how he was able to blend in more with the general population since he could not be identified as Jewish from his name or appearance. He also discusses how he learned how to deal with antisemitism in a less emotional way. He did experience antisemitism, specifically citing an example of Catholic private schools in Virginia looking to beat Jewish people up. He also discusses running into unpleasant people while at IBM. He fears that antisemitism will come back to America. Antisemitism ; Catholic ; Easter ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; Sacred Heart ; Violence ; Virginia Discrimination. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 http://www.wtvq.com/2017/01/31/henry-clay-hs-student-speaks-swastika-found-henry-clay-hs/ Recent article and interview with a Lexington Jewish high school student speaking out about anti-Semitic instances at Henry Clay High School. 4282 Personal experiences with race relations The blacks, interestingly enough, growing up in Virginia, uh, I took the, uh, Jim Crow laws as gospel. Cooper discusses how while growing up, his interactions with African Americans were similar to most interactions during the time of the Jim Crow laws. It wasn't until a particular instance when he was driving age and an interaction with their maid made him realize how deeply bothered he was by the treatment of African Americans. He explains that these race relations hit him harder than the antisemitism he experienced. He also discusses the interaction between the Jewish community and the African American community in Lexington in the 1950s, citing specific instances with IBM policies. 1950 ; Anti-Semitism ; Country clubs ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Jim Crow Laws ; Poughkeepsie (N.Y.) ; Relations with African Americans ; Virginia African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Race discrimination ; Race relations--United States ; Racism 17 http://www.vahistorical.org/collections-and-resources/virginia-history-explorer/jim-crow-civil-rights-virginia History of Jim Crow laws in Virginia 4576 Generational differences in Jewish identity--His parents Um, so many different things to cover. Cooper discusses the similarities and differences between his parents' Jewishness and his family's Jewishness, as well as his personal Jewish identity. His parents grew up in small Jewish towns in Eastern Europe, and he talks about how both his parents were very devout. Their move to the United States was a bigger change for them than Cooper's move to Lexington was for him. He talks about how they had to adapt to a non-majority Jewish society. Cooper believes that he celebrates holidays better now than in his childhood. Cooper also discusses his memories of family gatherings growing up. Aleph Zadik Aleph (AZA) ; Cheder ; East European immigrants ; Family gatherings ; Family traditions ; Hebrew ; Hebrew school ; Jewish ; Jewish communities. ; Jewish education ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Jewish schools ; Jewish society ; Jewish stores ; Judaism ; Kashrut ; Kosher ; Seder ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Shtetl ; Traditional food Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 38.90005300000001, -77.02319899999998 17 National headquarters of AZA, Washington, D.C. (now the male wing of BBYO.) http://bbyo.org/azabbg/history_of_aza/ The history of Aleph Zadik Aleph 4900 Generational differences in Jewish identity--His children And what about your children c--in, in comparison to your sense of Jewishness. Cooper discusses the Jewishness of his children. His two sons married converts and keep Kosher homes but her daughter does not. He talks about how his kids and grandkids are straying from Jewish customs and how he believes Jewish traditions won't continue past his children. Children ; Circumcision ; Converting to Judaism ; Generational change ; Generations ; Grandchildren ; Jewish ; Jewish customs ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Marriage ; Younger generations Jewish children--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 17 4996 Socializing among other Jewish youth How would you say where you grew up or and have lived your adult life here in Kentucky has affected the way that you think about Judaism or your relationship with Judaism? Cooper discusses how he knew all the Jewish girls from Baltimore to Jacksonville, and discusses how organizations like AZA allowed the Jewish youth to partake in non-Jewish customs (like prom) with people they could relate to. He then discusses how he met his wife Harriet. Aleph Zadik Aleph (AZA) ; Community ; Community interaction ; Dating ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish youth ; Marriage ; Prom Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion 37.1383, -80.5506 17 Radford University http://bbyo.org/azabbg/history_of_aza/ History of AZA 5304 Advice to students / challenges the Jewish community is facing Is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you would like to share? Cooper discusses why he thinks Lexington is a great community and a great place to grow up. He believes it is only going to get better and cites the positive interactions between all the rabbis. He also gives advice to current UK Jewish students and offers his take on challenges that the Jewish community is currently facing and could face in the future. He talks briefly about Israel and the issues Jews are facing in Europe. He doesn't think things are going to get better over there but believes things in the U.S. will get better. He also talks about how there's nothing Jewish in Kentucky outside of Lexington and Louisville. American-Jewish community ; Europe ; France ; Germany ; Globally ; Hillel ; Israel ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish persecution ; Jewish population ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Locally ; United States ; University of Kentucky (UK) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 38.0307, -84.5040 17 University of Kentucky http://kyhillel.org Hillel at the University of Kentucky 5709 Changing family names I knew I’d forget something. I’m glad we’re able to get back on here. Leon, can you tell me if Cooper was shortened, and if, if so, when? And by whom? Cooper talks about how his father was not the first in his family to come to America. He had two sisters and a brother come here and they shortened their last name from Kyperstein to Cooper and so when his father came over he came over as Cooper. His mother's family shortened their family name to Aframe from Aframowitz. Some of Cooper's father's family came over as Kyperstein. Aframe ; Aframowitz ; Assimilation ; Changing last names ; Cooper ; East European immigrants ; Family names ; Jewish names ; Kyperstein ; Last names Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Jews--Identity. 17 Oral History Leon Cooper was born in Norfolk, Virginia in 1927 and came to Lexington with his wife, Harriet, and two of his three children during the mid-twentieth century (the third was born in Lexington). He came to Lexington after serving in the Navy on two separate occasions. His enlistment came as a response to the dangers confronting Jewish people around the world and his desire to take part in the fight in WWII. He talks about the changes in his Jewish identity in the Navy and the community he felt with the other servicemen. After the Navy, he moved to Lexington to work for IBM. Cooper was one of the first engineers on the mag tapes electric typewriter—an innovation that opened the door to modern day word processing. The discussion of his career with IBM and with QED Medical—a medical technology company he created after retiring from IBM—leads into the discussion of his experiences in the Lexington Jewish community. He talks about his and his family’s move into the community, Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and their quick involvement with leadership roles and community events. His uplifting stories of community events such as the Yom Kippur Ball convey the unity everyone felt in this Jewish community. Personal encounters with anti-Semitism and negative race relations ground his stories in the reality of the time. In this interview with Janice Fernheimer, Cooper describes his life through the context of Jewish identity and belonging to a community. FERNHEIMER: Hello, my name is Janice Fernheimer. I' ; m Associate Professor of Writing, Rhetoric, and Digital Studies, and Director of Jewish Studies, and it is my great honor and pleasure to have the opportunity to spend the next couple of hours speaking with Leon Cooper as part of the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project. Uh, Leon, some of these questions are going to look familiar to you, uh, probably because I sent them to you before we started this interview, but um, I hope that you might be willing to state your name at birth for me, to get us started today? COOPER: Leon Milton Cooper. FERNHEIMER: And when and where were you born? COOPER: Norfolk, Virginia at the Protestant hospital, on August 27th, 1927. FERNHEIMER: And, what were your parents' ; names and occupations: COOPER: Isadore Cooper, my father, was a grocer. He had a grocery store as long as I can remember. My mother was Dora Cooper, and she was a housewife. In those days, women didn' ; t have many occupations, especially those coming from overseas. FERNHEIMER: Where were they born? COOPER: Excuse me? FERNHEIMER: Where were your parents born? I' ; m sorry, I' ; ll -- COOPER: My father was -- FERNHEIMER: -- speak up. COOPER: -- from a small town northeast of Kiev, in the Ukraine. My mother was in a small town north of Vilnius, in Lithuania, Roksik. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? COOPER: R-O-K-S-I-K. FERNHEIMER: Roksik. And when did they come to the United States? COOPER: They came separately. My father came, um, in about 1919. My mother, in about ' ; 20 or ' ; 21. FERNHEIMER: And, do you have siblings? COOPER: I do. FERNHEIMER: What are their names and ages relative to you? COOPER: I have a sister who' ; s nine years younger, Barbara Cooper. I had a brother that was a year and a half younger who died in March. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry. COOPER: Yeah, uh -- FERNHEIMER: Hard year. COOPER: It' ; s been a terrible year. FERNHEIMER: And what was his name? COOPER: Arnold. FERNHEIMER: Arnold. And, oh, what was the birth name of your wife, and the names of your children and grandchildren? COOPER: She, uh, was born Harriet Rudman. No middle name. In Winston-Salem, North Carolina. FERNHEIMER: Rudman. Was -- one -- COOPER: Rudman. R-U-D-M-A-N. FERNHEIMER: And, your children? COOPER: My children -- FERNHEIMER: ----(??)---- COOPER: -- are -- Lynn was my first born daughter. And she was born in January of ' ; 55. Then Ira was born in February of ' ; 57. And Andy in April of ' ; 59. FERNHEIMER: And is there anything unique we should know about your family background or your childhood years? COOPER: Well, both of my parents came from shtetls in eastern Europe, and all of their friends came from similar shtetls, and all of the relatives did. Actually, my first language was Yiddish, because nobody spoke anything else. And I' ; m really hard-pressed to figure out how I learned enough English to get into the first grade, but obviously I did, from somewhere. But it was an interesting, uh, community. They all had similar status in life, and they were all merchants of some sort, and scrap business, grocery business, restaurant business. And, uh, they shared, uh, all the good and bad times together. It was rather nice. FERNHEIMER: How did they get to Norfolk? COOPER: I think -- I was trying to find that out myself -- and I think my mother' ; s brother ended up in Norfolk, and he was responsible for bringing a lot of his family here. Other family settled up in, uh, Connecticut. FERNHEIMER: Ah. COOPER: Putnam, Connecticut. Got into the livestock business. Cattle. Which is what they did in, in Europe, surprising. I didn' ; t know any of our people were doing that, but -- FERNHEIMER: My family were live stockers, eh -- COOPER: Were they? FERNHEIMER: Well, that was what I was told. My father' ; s family, yeah. COOPER: Well -- FERNHEIMER: Also shocking to me. (laughs) COOPER: That' ; s my mother' ; s side. My father' ; s side, they were all in the grocery business. And they ended up in Norfolk because during hard times, when things got bad in Los Angeles or Chicago, wherever they were, my father would bring them to Norfolk and put them in business in a store. So we ended up with just about everybody in the Norfolk, Portsmouth, Tidewater area. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So most of your family was there growing up. Most of your family was there while you were growing up. COOPER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Um, and I understand that you were in the service. Was it the Navy? Is that correct? COOPER: It was. FERNHEIMER: And -- COOPER: I -- FERNHEIMER: -- when was that? COOPER: I enlisted in the Navy at 17, and, uh, served in ' ; 45 and ' ; 46. And the war ended in ' ; 45. And, uh, they let us out in time to go to college. So I got out in August of ' ; 46. Then I was called back in the service when I got out of college in 1950, and served two more years. And was released in active duty, uh, in 1952. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about your experiences being a Jewish person in the -- in the Navy? COOPER: Actually, it was fascinating. I, I, I had to give up kashrut, of course, and that was, um, kind of difficult to do. Not difficult, but strange. And there were still things I wouldn' ; t eat. I' ; d have to ask them what they were serving. But I got used to it. You had to. They -- nobody, uh -- FERNHEIMER: Where was your red line? What was it that you wouldn' ; t eat? COOPER: Pork. And shellfish. And milk with meat. That was it. Um, if they served a steak or a lamb chop, that -- no problem. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) That was all right. COOPER: That was okay. I, I ate that. I had no -- no qualms about that. But one time on the ship, at Yom Kippur, for break the fast, they had pork chops -- FERNHEIMER: (laughs) COOPER: -- which I thought was kind of, uh, not very nice. I had to pass those up for the vegetables. FERNHEIMER: I bet. Uh, did you -- were -- did you feel that your other service, uh, men treated you differently? COOPER: No. I thought it was, uh, they was fine. Uh, there were others on, uh, on shore or in -- uh, on the ship, and we sort of bonded together. We were at sea one Yom Kippur, and strangely enough, I was on an aircraft carrier, which is quite large. (coughs) Excuse me. They had matzas onboard. It would not surprise me that they had a siddur, but it did surprise me that they had matzas for the high holidays. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. COOPER: So in the ship' ; s library, we assembled, and there must have been 12, 15 of us for the Yom Kippur services. We were interrupted every once in a while from general quarters or something, but, uh, all in all, we, uh, we did our, our Yom Kippur. And then at Passover, the ship was in Greece. And I took a bunch of guys, the officers, into Athens, to shul. And they said, " ; Well what are we going to do here? We can' ; t speak Greek." ; I said, " ; But I know Yiddish." ; And I got there, and it was the first time, at that tender age of 25 or so, that I learned that all Jews don' ; t speak Yiddish. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) I was wondering about that. COOPER: They speak, uh, Ladino. Or Hebrew. And we were lost. Uh, there was one person who I could communicate with, but other than that, it was a big surprise. Because every Jew I ever knew up until then spoke Yiddish. And so, uh, it was an interesting experience, being in the Navy and being Jewish. FERNHEIMER: What -- what made you decide to enlist in the la-- in the Navy versus the Army -- COOPER: The war was going on. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. COOPER: And Hitler was treating us badly. And I needed my parents' ; permission, at 17, and surprisingly they f-- signed up for me to go, because they felt the same way I did. We had to get this thing over with, and I was just the guy to do it. So, uh, everybody I knew was going in the service. There wasn' ; t anybody -- FERNHEIMER: Yeah. COOPER: -- slacking back in those days. So me, and, and all of my classmates, uh, ended up in some service or another. I chose the Navy because I like, uh -- being in Norfolk, I was familiar with a lot of the Navy. And it turned out to be a good decision. I enjoyed it. And I stayed in the Reserves, uh, ' ; til I retired in about ' ; 68 -- FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: -- with the rank of Lieutenant Commander. So it served me well, and I served well. FERNHEIMER: Wow. I' ; m going to switch gears a little bit. It' ; s going to feel a little bit weird, um, to kind of fast forward a little bit in your life. Um, about this time last year, it was, Tom Eblen published a great article on his bo-- blog -- called " ; The Bluegrass and Beyond" ; about your involvement with the IBM team that developed word processing. And I understand that your job with IBM and the invention of the IBM Selectric, um, is what brought you here to Kentucky from Poughkeepsie in 1958? Is that correct? COOPER: Yes, but let me set the record straight. FERNHEIMER: Please do. COOPER: The Selectric was a marvelous, uh, product, and did amazingly well. My fingerprints are not on that product at all. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. COOPER: I had nothing to do with it. Word processing is another matter. I was the first engineer on the, uh, mag tapes electric typewriter, which kind of -- according to the writers in Jeopardy, which this was one of the questions -- it opened up the door for word processing for the rest of the world. I didn' ; t realize it was that significant. You want to talk about this some more? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Tell me -- can you back up and -- I know there was -- he wrote a, a good article, though I guess some of it was -- I' ; m glad we got the record straight here. (laughter) Um, but tell me a little bit about kind of those years in between, uh, your time in the -- the service -- and then you went to college. Where did you go to school? COOPER: Virginia Tech. Was VPI at the time. And I took mechanical engineering. Graduated in, um, the spring of 1950. And I was back in the Navy in August. Uh -- FERNHEIMER: And -- COOPER: -- and got out in August of ' ; 52. And, uh, a shipmate, uh, asked me one day up on the bridge in mid-watch, " ; What are you going to do when you get off the ship?" ; I said, " ; Well, I really don' ; t know." ; And he said, " ; Have you ever heard of International Business Machines?" ; I said, " ; What do they do?" ; He said, " ; They make punch card equipment." ; I said, " ; Wow, that' ; s right up my alley. I' ; m a mechanical engineer." ; So, uh, one day the ship was in port. I put on my dress blues, and walked into the IBM office. And I got invited for an interview up in Poughkeepsie. And the first question they asked me was, " ; How would you start and stop a magnetic tape in three milliseconds?" ; I said, " ; Wait a minute, what' ; s that got to do with punch card equipment?" ; Well, it turns out, that 1950 is when IBM was transitioning from the mechanical card punching to computers. It was a very exciting time to be there with them. Uh, and I liked to worked on an entire machine. The big computers were just too much. No one person understood -- well, I won' ; t say " ; no." ; Hardly anybody understood the whole workings of it. And I wanted a machine I could work on that, uh, I can understand it all. Well, we started talking about the mag tape and the typewriters. And my manager said, " ; What we need is a recording device that captures the keystroke so you can play it back." ; Now, up until that time, if a typist wanted to send a bunch of the same letter -- FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. COOPER: -- she -- and I say " ; she" ; because mostly they were women -- would take sheaf of, of, uh, paper, and slip carbons in between each, uh, every two of them. And then start typing. And a typist who could type 90 words a minute went down to 8 or 12, because if you hit the wrong key, you had to roll them out, and, and erase every copy. So simply enough, what they wanted was something were you could type the original message, and backspace, and hit the right key, and then throw away that piece of paper. Put in the carbon back, and type eight copies flawlessly. Well, that' ; s what we started making. And as we got further and further, we said, " ; Hey, y-- we can do a lot more than this." ; And as it turned out, we ended up with two tapes where you could take information off this tape and then do a lot of things which we do much easier today, and then put it on the second tape. And then, you had a composite tape with all the corrections and everything else. It turned out to be a reasonably good product. A $10,000 typewriter. And it sold fairly well. Uh, but as technology progressed, um, we more and more got sort of, uh, superseded. We were still using relays for storage, and, and a lot of the components from the old, uh, keypunch to do some of the work we wanted to do. So, that was a fascinating project. I' ; m glad I had a hand in it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, that' ; s -- it' ; s amazing. I mean, my background is in writing, rhetoric, and digital studies here, so it' ; s pretty exciting to hear that we have one of the founders of word processing right here -- COOPER: Well -- FERNHEIMER: -- in Lexington Jewish community. COOPER: It was not a solo operation. There was an army of us working -- working on that. I happened to be the first guy on the scene, and built the first plate model proving that you could record on a tape, and then play it back to the typewriter. FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: So, that was in 1957 or so. FERNHEIMER: How many people were on your team? COOPER: Well after they moved down here, there were, you know, three, four, eight, ten, twelve, and the more we got into doing all these fancy steps, uh, the more people we needed. And, uh, then, of course, getting it into production was a whole other matter. So it turned out to be, uh, quite a project. And I' ; m glad to be -- to have been a part of it. FERNHEIMER: When did you move from Poughkeepsie to Lexington? COOPER: Nineteen fifty-eight. March of ' ; 58. FERNHEIMER: And who came with you at the time? COOPER: We had -- of course my wife, and we had two children, Lynn and Ira. They were born in Poughkeepsie at Vassar Hospital. And, um, Andy was born here in Kentucky. We lived in Wappingers Falls. It' ; s a little bedroom community south of Poughkeepsie, like Georgetown is to Lexington. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And did you have any -- could you talk to me a little bit about your considerations in moving here, especially any discussions you might have had about Jewish life in Lexington at that time? COOPER: When I had the opportunity to come here, the first thing I looked for was a Conservative synagogue. If there were no -- if there was no Conservative synagogue, I would not have come here, because I thought that was a very important part of my life, our family life. So I came, and there was Ohabei Zion, which was, uh, great. And they had the temple Adath Israel, uh, Reform congregation. And, uh, the truth is, that was the most important thing I looked for. My wife and I are both from Virginia, so coming here from uh, Hudson Valley, was no big, uh, cultural shock for us. As a matter of fact, my wife never got warm in five and a half years in the Hudson Valley. So it was, uh, a welcome relief to come, come here. Uh, the town was about 90,000 when we came, and they were mostly merchants here. They owned the stores or worked in the stores, and their ports were -- FERNHEIMER: They, the Jewish people, or they -- COOPER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. COOPER: The Jewish stores. Meijers, and Hymson, and Kaufman, and Wilth (??), and Wild, and, and all of these people. Um, and they closed on Rosh Hashanah, and they closed on Yom Kippur. It was kind of nice. Uh, there were, of course, some, uh, professional people also. But until IBM came, and then the medical center opened up, uh, there was not any real influx of, uh, Jewish people to Lexington. FERNHEIMER: And when -- so, when you came -- that was -- most of Lexington' ; s downtown was mostly Jewish-owned shops at that time, right? COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Uh -- COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: M-- almost all of Main Street, um. So those merchants -- when you say -- i-- 90,000 -- that was the size of Lexington, of course, right? As a whole, not just the Jewish community? COOPER: No, the whole town. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. How big was the Jewish community then, would you say? Uh, how many -- COOPER: Two thousand. FERNHEIMER: Uh, so that is different from now. COOPER: Well, it' ; s about 2,500 isn' ; t it? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. It depends who you ask. Twenty-five hundred, thirty-five hundred. COOPER: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Bu-- COOPER: But the, the medical center brought a lot of Jewish couples to town. FERNHEIMER: When did that open? Do you recall? COOPER: Sixty-two. I -- believe I' ; m right. FERNHEIMER: I' ; ll -- COOPER: It was an interesting time, um, Jan. It opened at the same time that the Hadassah Hospital in -- at Ein Kerem -- opened in Jerusalem. My wife, and uh, Marilyn Mostik (??) were co-chairs of the Hadassah twinning group that twinned those two openings together. We had fancy dress balls, and dinners, and everything. And brought the director of the Hadassah Hospital over to Lexington. And, uh, it was quite a to-do. And that was about ' ; 62. The Chandler Medical Center. And a lot of faculty came who were Jewish, and boosted, our, uh, population considerably. FERNHEIMER: The numbers in the community. I' ; m going to go back to the word processing for just a minute, because I wonder, uh, uh, if you could tell me a little bit about the difference in Japanese and Chinese word processing? I have a note here to ask you about this. COOPER: Do you? FERNHEIMER: I do. And I -- I -- I have to confess, Beth helped ask some of these questions, and so I -- I was -- COOPER: Well Beth isn' ; t -- FERNHEIMER: -- hoping to get some -- to get some background on that from her, where this was coming from. So this is coming from Beth. I' ; m channeling her right now. COOPER: Well, I' ; m going to tell you -- FERNHEIMER: From Indonesia. COOPER: I' ; m going to tell you more than you need to know. But with the advent of the, uh, ink jet printer, we could print kanji characters. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. COOPER: Which are -- are different in Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. But the ink jet didn' ; t care what it printed. It just printed a picture. And it could print a Japanese character as well as it could print a -- uh, alphanumeric character. So, I worked on a Japanese typewriter, which was a fascinating, uh, assignment. The problem wasn' ; t printing, because we could do that. The problem was getting information into it. There must be -- and I' ; m quoting you some old numbers from the ' ; 70s -- 10,000 kanji characters in the Japanese language. For any discipline, there' ; s probably 3,000. The typewriter that the Japanese had was called a wabin (??). And it was a tray of maybe 3,000 type slugs. And the operator moved that tray under a picker, and when she got the right character, she would -- again, I say she -- would push down and a finger would lift that character, wipe it past a ribbon, and bang it into the paper. And it was just, uh, curiously a very difficult thing to comprehend, how someone could learn where every character was on that thing. So our biggest problem was to take the 3,000 characters and compress them into a typewriter keyboard. I worked with the Human Factors Group in San Jose, run by, uh, Dick Hirsch, and we became quite friendly. I' ; d send him a box of matzos every Pesach so he could remember who he was. But anyway, what we did was to get a group of women who were born in Japan, educated in Japan, and fluent in the kanji language. And the biggest supply of them in this country is in the San Francisco Bay area. So going to San Jose w-- seemed like a reasonable thing to do. So we developed a code for several strokes to get a kanji character, and trained a bunch of these women to -- to do that. And they got pretty good. The problem with it was cultural. I don' ; t think the Japanese wanted us to tell them how to do this. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. COOPER: And we never got past the experimental stage with it. Uh, it gave me many trips to Japan, which was quite nice. And, uh, it was a fascinating project. FERNHEIMER: And when were you working on that? That was in the ' ; 60s? COOPER: The ' ; 70s. FERNHEIMER: The ' ; 70s. COOPER: Yeah, we didn' ; t have ink jet until then, and uh, it was in, uh, maybe the middle-to-latter ' ; 70s. Uh, a fascinating program. Now, Japanese of course, goes like Hebrew and Farsi and Arabic, right to left. Or, down the page. But that wasn' ; t a problem either. Although going right to left does pose problems, but maybe you don' ; t want to talk about that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, do you -- do you have experience working with, uh, other language, uh, typewriters? I mean, I -- my husband, Jim, has a collection of Arabic and Hebrew typewriters in his home office, in his office office here on campus. But if you have experience working them, I would like to hear. COOPER: Only -- only Japanese. Only Japanese. But the big problem -- and I talked to people who were working on them -- going from right to left works okay, except if you have something like a - a big number. Six thousand, eight hundred and fifty-two. You got to know what that whole number is -- FERNHEIMER: Right. COOPER: To start printing it. So we needed a little memory. And, uh, that was the big problem in doing that. But -- and I' ; m not even sure how they solved it. I didn' ; t get involved in the -- FERNHEIMER: Yeah. You were -- you retired shortly -- well, I don' ; t know about shortly -- but a few -- 10 years later, right? COOPER: Eighty-two. FERNHEIMER: In ' ; 82? Um -- COOPER: IBM had a very generous program to reduce the people on board. We learned " ; we." ; IBM learned lesson in the Hudson Valley -- we do not want to be the, uh, dominant financial factor in the area. We were up in the Hudson Valley, and when IBM took a hit, the whole place kind of got depressed. So they had a very sensible arrangement here, where if we got the -- a number -- like 5,000 -- we' ; d open up another location. Which we did, in Austin, Texas. And then they got up. And then we opened up Boulder, Colorado, to keep from taking too big a position in the finances of the region. It was a very, um, responsible thing to do. So why am I telling you this? FERNHEIMER: Oh, because I was going to -- I asked you -- well, I didn' ; t really ask you a question. Um, when you retired from IBM in 1982, you created a new company, QED Medical. And so I wanted you to tell me a little bit about that new company, and how it came to be, and your continued involvement with. COOPER: In the middle ' ; 60s, I had the job of running the exploratory engineering group in Lexington. Thomas J. Watson, Jr. issued a decree that anywhere there' ; s an engineering facility near a medical facility, we are to offer them all the assistance they needed at no cost. In the middle ' ; 60s, IBM had a Dr. Eisman who was in charge of surgery, and the VA had a doctor -- I think his name was Molette. These were both prolific inventors, and they took almost all of the effort of my department working on their medical devices. We actually built the artificial heart for a cow for one of the -- FERNHEIMER: This is at IBM or at QED? COOPER: IBM. This is back in the ' ; 60s. And we did a lot of fascinating things. And I became, uh, enamored with, uh, medical work. And then we had friends -- Marty and Marsha Blacker -- in town. He was a professor of, uh, neurosurgery at UK. And we were out to dinner with him one night, and he was telling me the problems they had -- or he had -- getting enough illumination in a s-- in a bore hole in a skull to do work. And I said it didn' ; t look like too serious a problem. So, um, another engineer and I put together a system, which wasn' ; t unique -- we just put together what we could find -- and built the unit for him that he really liked. And so when time came for me to think about what I was going to do when I got out of IBM, I thought, well that' ; s probably a pretty good business. So I -- I retired in August of ' ; 52, took Labor Day weekend off -- FERNHEIMER: Fifty-two or eighty-two? COOPER: Eighty-two. Excuse me. FERNHEIMER: Okay. I was going to say. COOPER: No, no, no. I' ; m confusing you. It' ; s ' ; 82. Took Labor Day weekend off, and um, rented a space, hired a bookkeeper and a shop foreman, and we started building these units. FERNHEIMER: So they were a special kind of lamp? I -- I just want to be clear on the -- COOPER: It' ; s a fiber optic. It' ; s a light source and a fiber optic hose that brought the light up to the, uh, to the headlight, which was situated in a -- in a headband. And then the light came between your eyes, off the tip of your nose, into whatever cavity the doctor was working on. And you could focus the light, or make it smaller, so that you didn' ; t get glare from the surrounding bone and tissue. And that was ' ; 82. And then in ' ; 85, my son decided he thought he wanted to get into the business. In ' ; 89 my daughter did, and in ' ; 95, my other son did. So I was able to supply my three children with, uh, with, uh, occupation, which was quite good. FERNHEIMER: And you still work there, yeah? COOPER: I still show up there. And the best thing I can do is stay out of their way, which they -- and so he has an office for me, and if he needs me, he' ; ll call me, but, uh, I let him run it, because it' ; s his business now, not mine. We do not run the same business formula, but I get out of his way. It' ; s the nicest thing I can do. My daughter, on the other hand, started another company, so she' ; s not involved with the two boys anymore. So -- FERNHEIMER: What did she start? Just out of curiosity. COOPER: A different company. She found a new maker, and she' ; s now in the business with them. Uh, I mean, the same business, but, uh, Ira and Andy are the two who, uh, are running the business that I started. FERNHEIMER: The QED. COOPER: Actually, yeah. The QED. FERNHEIMER: And what is -- what' ; s the name of Lynn' ; s company or just -- COOPER: BFW. FERNHEIMER: BFW. Well, you talked a little bit about your family' ; s involvement in the business, and I want to switch gears a bit, again. Of course, I -- we' ; re talking about gears -- I realize this is kind of a bad pun -- to talk about your involvement in the Lexington Jewish community. Uh, I know -- even though it' ; s well before I was here -- that ever since you first settled in Lexington that you' ; ve been involved in the local Jewish community. And I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about your experience getting settled in this community. COOPER: It was easy to do. There was a very friendly community, and both Harriet and I were interested in getting involved. And so, uh, we showed up at the synagogue, and within two years I was president, so, you know, it didn' ; t take much. And then Harriet turned out to be the membership chairman for Hadassah, Council of Jewish Women, and the synagogue at various times. So getting involved in the community was -- if you wanted to do it, it was an easy thing to do. FERNHEIMER: And can you tell me a little bit about -- you said the transition from Poughkeepsie wasn' ; t too tough. That it was kind of similar, or at least not so different here than it was in Virginia for both of you. COOPER: It was a smaller community, um, than it was in Tidewater, Virginia. But the people are friendly. There are a lot of people came down from New York who turned around and went right back. The cultural shock was something too much for their system. But for Harriet and for me, and it was coming home. Uh, we were familiar with, with, uh, the culture and, and the friendliness of the people. And we, uh, we had no trouble getting established. We were anxious to do what we could, and they were anxious to have someone come and do it, what we could do. So. And, and there wasn' ; t much different. Uh, up in, uh, the Hudson Valley, even though Poughkeepsie had a -- an Orthodox, and a Conservative, and a Reformed congregation, we still had to drive to Beacon to get our kosher meat. Uh, so that' ; s what we had to do here, too. FERNHEIMER: Where did -- I was -- I was going to ask about the kosher meat. Where did you get it at that time? COOPER: Louisville or Cincinnati. FERNHEIMER: There was no Trader Joe' ; s then. COOPER: There was nothing here. Empire chickens were frozen in the store, but other than that, there was no market, actually, and uh, it wasn' ; t around. But, we were used to that. FERNHEIMER: Was Guller' ; s still around at -- COOPER: Guller? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. COOPER: Yes. Yes. But not all that long. He wasn' ; t around. Well, I -- I may be talking out of turn here, because I don' ; t know exactly when he closed, but, uh -- FERNHEIMER: But do you remember his kosher butcher shop -- COOPER: I do. FERNHEIMER: -- when you first -- COOPER: I do. FERNHEIMER: -- moved to town. COOPER: Right there by Transy. Uh, I think it was Fourth and one of those streets that go the other way. Uh, yeah. We -- we did shop with him, too. But, uh, he closed up and moved, I guess with his daughter and son-in-law in Cincinnati. FERNHEIMER: And did a lot of, um, members of the, the synagogue at that time also keep kosher? I know -- COOPER: No, I wouldn' ; t say. FERNHEIMER: -- now it' ; s a pretty small percentage. COOPER: A lot of the original members that came from Europe certainly did. Uh, their children, uh, lot of them did or didn' ; t. But, uh, there wasn' ; t that much. I think there may be more now that there were -- was then. FERNHEIMER: Oh, really? COOPER: Yeah, it' ; s kind of neat. FERNHEIMER: Uh. I know you' ; ve been very involved in th-- as you' ; ve mentioned -- as president, and a bunch of different leadership roles -- at OZS, at the Federation, at B' ; nai Brith, and some other Israel-related activities. Can you tell me a little bit about the various leadership roles you' ; ve had, and, and maybe which ones you think were most important? COOPER: Well, of course I was president of the synagogue on two separate occasions. And I think that was very important. Uh, the UJA I think is extremely important. Back when I was a kid in high school, I used to follow my father around. This is before Israel. And he used to speak at the UJA rallies. FERNHEIMER: United Jewish Appeal, correct? COOPER: United Jewish Appeal. It' ; s called something else now. I can' ; t remember ----(??)---- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m just making sure. I' ; m talking -- you' ; re ta-- I think you' ; re talking about the thing I think you' ; re talking about. So, yes. COOPER: Yeah. United Jewish Appeal. And he would speak to them in Yiddish, and they were his tayere khaveyrim -- his dear friends. And they all shared his background. And I really loved listening to him talk -- talk to them. So I' ; ve been imbued with the UJA spirit from back in high school. And I think that' ; s an extremely important, uh, function that needs support. Bonds -- another matter. Uh, with a lot of help, we were able to raise quite a bit. Three -- four million dollars in, uh, Israeli bonds. Surprisingly, isn' ; t it? FERNHEIMER: When was this? COOPER: Well, they had a program that was fascinating. Uh, if you could get 20 people together, they would pay 150 bucks a year to the Federation, and we can borrow a half a million dollars from the bank. FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: And we did this, one, two, three, four, maybe five times. And, uh, after, um, five years, the bond matured. Or seven years, whichever. And um, the bank got its money back. Fifth Third was quite, um, cooperative in this venture. They fu-- furnished the money for quite a few of those -- FERNHEIMER: And -- COOPER: -- Israel bonds. FERNHEIMER: This was in the ' ; 60s, the ' ; 70s, the ' ; 80s? COOPER: No, no, no. It was probably in the early 2000s or -- FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. I didn' ; t realize it was that recent. COOPER: I could be confused, but I think that' ; s right. FERNHEIMER: I -- I actually didn' ; t know anything about -- that precedes my arriving here in Lexington, so, um. COOPER: Okay. And, uh, the U.S. government put a stop to that program. I think -- well, I don' ; t want to go into detail as to why, but we did quite well. We had temple people and shul people working together, and it was no trouble to amass 20 who wanted to participate in it. And that was the bonds, UJA, and the shul, and -- of course, B' ; nai Brith. I grew up in ACA and Hillel. And I had a fondness for the B' ; nai Brith organization. And, uh, I' ; m just happy to see that, uh, we had one here. Actually, it' ; s about 150 years old. At our birthday, we read minutes of the meetings during the Civil War -- FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: -- of the B' ; nai Brith Lodge here in Lexington. FERNHEIMER: You all still -- COOPER: Fascinating. FERNHEIMER: You still have those minutes? Who -- COOPER: I don' ; t. FERNHEIMER: They do, though. COOPER: I know who has them, yes. FERNHEIMER: Wh-- okay. We can talk about that later. COOPER: It' ; s at the temple. They' ; re at the temple. FERNHEIMER: Are they? Wow. Um, that' ; s pretty amazing. So what did they say? Those minutes from the Civil War? COOPER: Well, they were fascinating about, you know, we never seceded in, in, uh, Kentucky. And uh, they were talking about what' ; s going on, and what we could do, and raise money for the soldiers, and so forth. Uh, the other -- FERNHEIMER: Which soldiers? The Union or the Confederacy? COOPER: You know -- FERNHEIMER: Or both. COOPER: -- I don' ; t remember. Yeah, um, I don' ; t remember where our sympathies lied. Uh, lay. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. That' ; s a good question for my students. To go take a look. COOPER: They can go to the temple and get those minutes and find out. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um. So y-- you think those -- the, the work with the Israel bonds, and your role as president were some of the most important leaderships positions you had in the community. Why -- why is that? COOPER: Well, I haven' ; t done anything in the general community. I -- all my efforts have been in the Jewish community. And working for the shul was fine, but it' ; s a limited group of people. Local. And worthwhile. But the others involved the world. The, um, UJA, with the Jewish Agency, and HIAS, and, and, uh. Of course, bonds for Israel, uh. One of my trips over there, they showed us a road that they were building that, uh, we don' ; t know if it was our bonds, but they were built with bonds that were bought in this country, uh, for Israel. So yeah, I feel that' ; s a very important part of my life. FERNHEIMER: Um. You said -- you put all your community effort into the Jewish community. Why is that? COOPER: There are enough people to do everything else. We' ; ve got a limited population here, and I can' ; t spread myself too thin. And, uh, I' ; m not one of the pillars of the community -- of the general community -- so I put my effort where I think they' ; ll do the most good. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s a good -- good, uh -- I like the way you think about that. Um. One of the things that you did as part of that effort is to reestablish the chevra kadisha here. And that is the, um, for others who are watching this later, that is the, uh, committee that takes care of the dead. COOPER: Burial society. The first thing that a Jewish community did when they went into a place was to establish a burial society. And at the time, and I' ; m going back to the middle-to-late ' ; 80s, you -- are you familiar with what the chevra kadisha does? FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. They -- I -- you can -- but -- feel free to talk about it, um. COOPER: There are two groups. One prepares the body for burial, and the second group sits with the body from then until the funeral. So up until the middle ' ; 80s -- or ' ; 87, 6 -- if anyone wanted that service, they either had to take the body to Louisville, to the Meyers funeral home -- FERNHEIMER: Oh my. COOPER: -- or ask Meyers to send over a crew to Milwards or Kerr Brothers to take care of the body. It occurred to me -- and I don' ; t remember what position I was in, maybe it was religious chairman -- that this is foolish. We shouldn' ; t have to have people pay that extra fare to do this. There' ; s no reason why we can' ; t do it ourselves. Rabbi Smith was the rabbi of the shul then, and so I approached him, and he thought it was a marvelous idea, and we got together and started planning for putting a group together. And it' ; s not something you do right away. You got to study, and learn, and do things. We thought the best thing would be to hire -- not hire -- to recruit, enlist -- doctors and nurses because they' ; re used to dealing with -- with bodies. FERNHEIMER: Bodies. COOPER: So it wasn' ; t until the summer of 1990 that we were able to take care of our first body. Which we did. By that time, we had a group of men for the tahara, a group of women for the tahara, and, uh, a lineup of people who were willing to sit with the bodies. And they weren' ; t all doctors. It turns out that that' ; s a fallacy. It really doesn' ; t matter. The most enheartening thing about it is, that it is a good thing to do. And it was the response of the people. Uh, we never got a " ; I' ; m too tired," ; or " ; I don' ; t feel like it." ; If anybody didn' ; t come to do it, they had a very good reason for not doing it. And it made them feel good to perform this service. You know, it' ; s one of the services that they can' ; t repay you for -- FERNHEIMER: Right. COOPER: -- so that' ; s what makes it so important. And since that time, uh, we don' ; t record a number, but we take care of anybody in the whole community who wishes to have that service done. FERNHEIMER: So that' ; s one of the organizations that spans across the synagogue and the temple here in Lexington? COOPER: It' ; s a synagogue function, but we will -- FERNHEIMER: Prepare anybody. COOPER: -- service anybody in the community. We' ; ve done, uh, actually I can only think of one temple member. We did a -- a prisoner at the Federal Correction Institute who died and wanted to get shipped back to Israel. And we performed that tahara on this person. Uh, but most -- they' ; re all shul people. Men or women, and uh, it is a most, uh, serious business, and I' ; m really pleased that it' ; s going on. My son is now one of the co-chairs of the men' ; s tahara, and, and that pleases me. FERNHEIMER: What' ; s involved in the tahara process for folks who aren' ; t familiar with that, within the Jewish ritual? COOPER: You bathe the body, and then you purify the body with water. Just run a steady stream of water -- a certain amount, which is specified. And then we dress the body in, uh, shrouds. The clothes that the high priest would wear. And then we put the body in the casket. Close the lid. And except for family members who wish to see him, for all practical purposes, it' ; s closed. Sealed. We have three rules. You -- you must have a kosher casket, which means all wood, no metal. You' ; ve got to agree to the shroud. And you cannot have a public viewing of the body. FERNHEIMER: And the shroud, it' ; s all white, right? COOPER: Excuse me? FERNHEIMER: It' ; s all white? COOPER: Yes. Linen. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, and is this the -- the c-- the committee that does this, the burial society, is it connected to the Spinoza Burial Society that was initially part of the -- COOPER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. COOPER: It is not. The Spinoza Society runs the cemetery. FERNHEIMER: Okay. COOPER: And if you want to read some fascinating stuff, Mike Aideys (??) has a report of the Spinoza Society. The first cemetery that was bought and used was where, on Tate' ; s Creek, where Morton Junior High is now? FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. COOPER: That was the Jewish cemetery. And it turns out that they decided, after several years, it was too far from the center of town for the horse and buggy to take a coffin in the winter time. And that' ; s when they made arrangements to, uh, buy land from the Lexington Cemetery. They bought the first plot, which is now totally full. And then they bought a second lot, which is filled up. Most all of the people involved in the beginning lot, I could say all of them, were temple members. Because they were here first. The -- the, uh, Reform Jews from Germany and -- started the temple Adath Israel years before the Ohabei Zion crowd showed up. So they' ; re mostly, uh, people who, uh, belonged to the temple. And Mike has a report of the -- of that burial society. I don' ; t think it was called Spinoza then. It is now. And it -- the committee is temple and synagogue members combined. FERNHEIMER: Both. Hmm. That' ; s fascinating. COOPER: Yeah, it' ; s separate from the chevra kadisha. FERNHEIMER: Um, I' ; m going to come back to the family stuff again. I know we keep going back and forth between community and family, but I know that they' ; re very interconnected in a lot of ways. Um, what supports and challenges did you find trying to raise Jewish children in Lexington during the ' ; 50s, and the s-- from the ' ; 50s to the ' ; 70s while you were here? Of course this rings a very special note with me now, but. COOPER: That' ; s right. Well, this being the Bible Belt, the schools had no knowledge, or maybe interest, in doing anything different than Christmas and Easter. And I know the parents had a lot of trouble trying to introduce something for their children in the schools. I remember Harriet schlepping to school with a menorah every Hanukah to talk to the class about Hanukah, which everybody thought was the Jewish Christmas. And, um, functions, like the PTA or graduation, there were always prayers that, uh, are biased in one direction, uh, which you don' ; t seem to be able to get -- get rid of, or get away from. And, uh, it' ; s hard to instill a -- a universal feeling into these people. This is the Bible Belt, and, and it' ; s what they' ; re used to doing. And -- it used to make me very upset, and I' ; ve taken a -- a different tack. I -- I can' ; t afford to get all that worked up anymore. I don' ; t have any children there. Um, and I' ; m leaving it up to other people to try to get around that. I don' ; t think you saw anything in the papers about Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Pesach. It just don' ; t exist. FERNHEIMER: So, you don' ; t think things have -- I guess, let me try and ask a question instead of making a statement here. Um. Would you say things have changed at all, now, compared to when you were raising children? COOPER: Oh, I think they have. I think we have the Federation now, which we didn' ; t have then. And we have a -- I forgot what it' ; s called. A community action, or community something group. And it' ; s their charge to go to the school boards and tell them what days are the holidays -- the important holidays for the year. And I -- I think that has changed. And I think there are more kids in school now than there were when my kids were going. FERNHEIMER: Jewish kids, you mean? COOPER: Mm-hmm. Jewish kids. FERNHEIMER: Um. Can you tell me a little bit about the social events at OZ -- that took place at OZS in the ' ; 50s and ' ; 70s? I' ; m told there was a Yom Kippur ball? COOPER: Isn' ; t that amazing? I find trouble wrapping my head around that too. But after break the fast, we' ; d take our kids home with a babysitter. We had hired a band. And we' ; d go back to the shul and dance. And I can' ; t -- FERNHEIMER: After having just broken the fast? I' ; m impressed. COOPER: I am too, actually. There were several couples. Eddie and Ann Stein were the -- were the precipitators. And then Franklin and Marilyn Moslik, and Harriet and, and I were in the forefront of that. And we would do that. A-- and kids today shake their head. They just can' ; t believe we did that. But we did that. Um. FERNHEIMER: What kind of music was it? What kind of band? COOPER: Oh, it was four, five piece band. Um, and we decorated the hall. The real decoration was our matzos ball after Pesach. And, uh, we did that too. And then we had a theater group. FERNHEIMER: Wow. COOPER: S-- the Center Players. And we put on a -- several plays. One of them was My Fair Sadie, and uh, actually, we had to run an extra week because more people wanted to see it than we could seat. FERNHEIMER: When was this? COOPER: Sixties. FERNHEIMER: The ' ; 60s. COOPER: And the early s-- maybe early ' ; 70s, yeah. We did Anything Goes, and we did, uh, well Marilyn wrote A Gold We Got, as something like Camelot, but it was Gold We Got. And we had a good time putting on plays. This was a synagogue function, not a community function. And it was, uh, it was fun. FERNHEIMER: Wow. What a different kind of -- I can' ; t even imagine that now. I mean I guess I can, but it' ; s so different from, uh -- COOPER: It is. But -- and I don' ; t know why we were so different than kids today. Yes, I guess I do. The wives work today, and, and they didn' ; t back then. They had all the time. Not that they were busy with kids and family. Of course, I' ; m not demeaning that. But, uh, they didn' ; t have jobs. The men worked, and the women did other things. But we enjoyed getting together and -- and doing those things. I can' ; t imagine it happening today either. It would be nice if we had a theater group again, or just did a play, would be interesting. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So you -- that' ; s some of the things that have changed in the Jewish community during the time that you' ; ve been here. Are there some other things that you might want to discuss? I don' ; t know if there are community practices, or different rabbis, or relations -- COOPER: Well -- FERNHEIMER: -- between the synagogue and the temple? I' ; ve just given you a whole slew of things. COOPER: I think one of the strengths of this community is the fact that we have a shul, and we have a temple. People who come here aren' ; t forced into a -- an institution that they don' ; t really want to belong to. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. COOPER: They do have a choice. And now, we have a Chabad. A Chabad rabbi has moved to town, and I think that' ; s a good -- a good move. Now, maybe some Orthodox people would consider accepting employment here in, in Lexington. We -- we never had that before. So I think that' ; s a strength of the community. I think the education committees of the two shul and temple are trying to at least get the older kids together so they can know each other. FERNHEIMER: Mm. COOPER: It' ; s a shame to have them grow up and -- and not know who the other kids are. There aren' ; t that many around. So, that depends a lot on who the rabbis are, as to how much they want to share. And I think we' ; re fortunate now that we both have rabbis that would be interested in that kind of, uh, arrangement. So maybe it will change even more than it has in the past. FERNHEIMER: What about Federation? You were around when Federation was formed, right? Because it -- it -- COOPER: Oh, yeah. FERNHEIMER: It wasn' ; t always here. COOPER: No, it wasn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: Um, do you want to ta-- COOPER: And it started with Camp Shalom. FERNHEIMER: Tell me a little bit about that. I' ; ve heard a lot about Camp Shalom and these kind of -- not -- kind of as an aside on another conversation, so I want to hear a little bit more about that. COOPER: Well, we had a bunch of kids here, and uh, we thought it would be a good idea at the time. FERNHEIMER: When was this? This was in the ' ; 60s or in the ' ; 70s? COOPER: It had to been in the ' ; 70s. I' ; m not good at that, but, uh -- FERNHEIMER: We' ; ll check. We' ; ll check. I know that they had -- there was some plaques up at Federation. I can look at the dates. COOPER: Interestingly enough, the woman who was the first head of the Camp Shalom is the mother of the new rabbi at the temple. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s what I' ; ve heard -- been told. Her name -- COOPER: Carol Wirtschafter was a driving force in, in, uh, creation of, uh, Camp Shalom, and the first director. And, um, the women ran it, and then we got them -- out of that came the, the Federation. And we used to have, uh, forum speakers come, and uh, speak in the community, uh, under the auspices of the Federation. FERNHEIMER: So Federation grew out of the formation of -- of Camp Shalom? How -- how did that -- COOPER: No, it just -- was -- at the same time. We just got that going, and then, uh, decided that maybe there were other things we want to do, other than that. So we needed money for Shalom, and needed money for, um, the forum series, and so forth, so we formed the Federation. And, uh, it' ; s still going. Of course, we had volunteer workers then. And now we, we pay professional people to run it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So when it -- when it first formed, it was the Central Kentucky -- tell me. Do you remember the name? COOPER: No. FERNHEIMER: A different name. I' ; ll look it up. Um. Another question, sort of back in the idea of these social circles. I know that -- I mean, just hearing you talk about these balls that you guys put on, um, makes it think that there were very strong social connections for you here in this community. Maybe, um, can you help me think out loud about the differences you experienced moving in -- in the circles? You sort of mentioned this before. The folks from New York who came down, and couldn' ; t take it, and so they moved back. And the folks who were born here, and, and grew up here, and stayed here, and the sort of Jewish community members who came in, and out, and maybe moved on. Um, what -- what was the difference between those different kinds of Jewish social circles here in town? COOPER: Well, I told you. My experience growing up has been everybody came from a shtetl somewhere. I' ; m the first generation born in this country, and most everybody I knew was the first born in this country. To come here and find fifth and sixth generation Americans, that bewildered me. I couldn' ; t imagine -- couldn' ; t imagine that. But there were. There were people who' ; d been here for a long time. And that was strange for me. But, um, the community was ready to accept us. We had no trouble. Either the temple or the shul, and, and, uh, I did not notice any -- anything worth talking about. We had some very good friends at the temple, and uh, I' ; m sure they had friends other than us at -- at the synagogue. But, uh, I -- I don' ; t know what I can tell you that would be enlightening. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um. What -- was there -- were there Yiddish speakers? Did you guys speak Yiddish ever at synagogue, or at temple, or in the shops when you were here in the early years? COOPER: Um, no. Uh, the older guys, when I came here, all spoke Yiddish. And then they were dying off. Um. Rafi Finkel, of course, is a Yiddish scholar. I never knew there was a Yiddish grammar until he told me that. I didn' ; t know that. I thought people just picked it up and spoke it. Oscar Haber was another one. A Holocaust survivor. And I used to take him places, and I loved talking to him in, in Yiddish, because the first thing you lose is vocabulary. And until you hear it and get the rhythm, you' ; ve kind of lost. But, speaking with him, uh, helped bring a lot of that back for me. But there isn' ; t a lot of Yiddish spoken here now. There -- there was a Yiddish speaker at the temple who, uh, gave a talk at the shul once, and I' ; m trying to think of his name. I can' ; t do it. And, uh, he was a scholar like, uh, Rafi, in -- in the Yiddish language. But nobody -- I -- I can' ; t find, uh, Yiddish speakers. FERNHEIMER: What -- this is moving in a little bit different direction. Um, what was the non-Jewish community' ; s reaction to your Jewishness here in Lexington? COOPER: Well, a lot of them had never seen one before, or known that they have seen one before, and were fascinated. One of the most successful things we did at the -- at the shul -- and this goes back to the ' ; 60s. In the circle where I live, there were enough Jewish families that we put together a holiday walking tour, where each home was decorated for a particular holiday. Judy and Sa-- Judy and Stanley Sacks were the first, and they were Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. We were Sukkos and Sukkos Torah. And then there was Hanukah, and then there was Pesach, and then -- at different homes were set up. And then the last home we served tea and cake. And that was highly successful. We got busloads of people from churches who came to do the tour. FERNHEIMER: So this was a tour that your neighborhood community put on for the non-Jewish community as an educational -- COOPER: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: -- uh, endeavor? COOPER: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Wow. How many years did you do this? COOPER: I don' ; t know we did it more than one. But there was some temple people involved, and synagogue people involved. Uh, and it was interesting how it worked out. We had just enough homes to do all the holidays for the year. FERNHEIMER: What year was this that you did it? COOPER: The ' ; 60s. I' ; ll have to go back and find the year. FERNHEIMER: And what prompted you to do this, uh, the neighborhood group? COOPER: What you asked, the question. To introduce the community to who we were. FERNHEIMER: Huh. COOPER: And we thought this would be a wonderful way to do it. Um, and they brought busloads of people from churches. We charged a dollar a head, to keep out the riffraff. It was uh, uh, very successful. And still, um, it' ; s a mystery to a lot of people what we do, and how we celebrate holidays, and so forth. But, uh, I have never encountered a serious problem with -- with our neighbors. FERNHEIMER: Have you had any -- or what have your experiences been with anti-Semitism? Uh. COOPER: Well, with a name like Cooper, and no distinguishing features, I was privy to a lot of conversations that I would not have heard otherwise. And, um, again, I learned to deal with them in a little less emotional way. But yeah, I witnessed it. At -- in high school, at Easter time, the Catholic kids from the Sacred Heart and other churches used to come looking for us, because -- I was told -- that all of their teachers came from Europe, where there was still that strong anti-Semitism, and they got them fired up at Easter, and they came running out in the street, and uh -- I' ; m back in Virginia now. And, uh, it -- we didn' ; t want to run into any of them at that time of year. FERNHEIMER: What would happen? I mean, what were they looking to do? COOPER: They' ; d beat you up. That' ; s all. They' ; d beat you up. Um, and it -- IBM, which was extremely, uh, generous for the holidays and everything -- I had no problem with the company. I ran across a few people in the company who I had unpleasantness with. And, uh, I guess everybody has these experiences, if you take them seriously. So, yeah, I' ; ve had my experiences with anti-Semitism, and I think -- I' ; m afraid -- that, uh, if the economy gets real bad, it' ; ll come back and haunt us again. Over here. Europe is another story. I think, uh, things are going to get worse in Europe. FERNHEIMER: Is there a particularly vivid incident that stands out in your mind, other than those sort of scary Easter Sundays in Virginia? COOPER: No, I don' ; t. I -- I' ; m -- nothing scarred me. Uh, the blacks, interestingly enough. Growing up in Virginia, uh, I took the, uh, Jim Crow laws as Gospel. You know, you -- they would drink in their own fountains. You know, black and white fountains. Come in the back door of theaters and sit in the balcony. And all of that. And, uh, I guess I' ; m ashamed to say it. I didn' ; t take much thought of that until I was 16 and got my driver' ; s license. And we had a maid -- years, since I was growing up -- who took care of us. And when I got my license, I was going to drive her home one day. And I opened up the front door to the car. FERNHEIMER: And she was African American, I -- I' ; m -- COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: -- gathering? COOPER: Annie was African American. And she said, " ; Are you crazy, boy?" ; I said, " ; Are you afraid to ride with me?" ; She said, " ; You know I can' ; t get in the front seat with you." ; In Virginia, there was a law. She couldn' ; t ride in the front seat of a car with me. So she had to sit in the back, and I had to drive her home. And then it occurred -- it still bothers me. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry. COOPER: That this is what they put up with. So, I think that hit me more than, uh, anti-Semitism. I -- I can handle that. FERNHEIMER: And so did that -- after that experience driving Annie home, did -- did that change the way you interacted with her? COOPER: Yeah, yeah. And I got involved in voting, and all that, and, uh, yeah. It did. I was immune to it before. Didn' ; t affect me one way or another. But it did then. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. That was a -- I mean, you' ; ve seen so many changes in your life. COOPER: You live long enough, you seem them all. FERNHEIMER: Um. Yeah. So did you notice that -- I mean, I don' ; t know. I -- this is a kind of off-the-cuff question, but -- here in Lexington, what were the relations like between the Jewish community and the African American community? Or were there intersections, um. You talked about the ' ; 50s and the ' ; 60s. That' ; s sort of a prime time in American history, when lots of change was happening. Uh, you think about the merchants downtown, um, in a position to either impact some of that change, or, or to not impact. COOPER: I wasn' ; t. I think the black community here behaved very responsibly. Much more so than, than we did. And, uh, working at IBM, I had friends that I wouldn' ; t have met otherwise. You know, one of the things, when IBM came here, they only had places in Poughkeepsie, and Endicott, New York, and they always had a country club. And when they came here, they couldn' ; t have a country club, because they would have had to let all the employees participate. And in the middle ' ; 50s, the blacks weren' ; t allowed in these places. And so IBM had to rethink that whole country club thing. FERNHEIMER: Uh, because -- because of the customs here in Kentucky? COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. So instead, they built the park that everybody could go to, but there was no country club like they had in the other two locations. This was their third location other than, uh, Poughkeepsie and Endicott. FERNHEIMER: So, up north, was everyone allowed to join the country clubs that IBM sponsored? Did they have African American emp-- employees? COOPER: Oh, yeah. And, oh yes. Yes. And here also. But they couldn' ; t all join the country club here. The blacks couldn' ; t play golf on the golf course, or any of that. FERNHEIMER: So IBM just side-stepped it by not having one at all? COOPER: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. Um. COOPER: Well, that' ; s all they could do. They weren' ; t going to get new laws passed in ' ; 55, 6. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Um. So many different things to cover. I know -- I want to come back a little bit to some of the family stuff. Um, how would you say your -- the Jewishness of you and your family is different from or similar to that of your parents' ; sense of Jewishness? COOPER: Oh, well. They came from shtetls. And, um, that was their whole life, because they had no life. And w-- we talk about the blacks over here. The Jews were no better over there in the -- well, they were a lot worse, actually. Lived in ghettos, and, and had no hope of ever getting out of them. And so religion was the big thing in their lives. And like with my father. He -- his father traveled around teaching Hebrew, and, uh, he went -- he had a good education in his cheder, his Hebrew school. Um, and um, my mother' ; s family was also extremely devout. And coming here was a change for them. Far bigger change than my moving here from up north. Uh, they had to adopt to working on Saturdays, which was pretty hard to take. Uh, but they had to do it. And it -- it gave them a lot of -- lot of problems. You could either not do it, or do it and, uh, feel terrible about it, or just give in and do it. But if you own a store -- a grocery store -- you can' ; t close on Saturday. And so my father did -- opened -- and, uh, there was a -- it was quite different. Um. To tell you the truth, though, I think I observe more holidays better than they did. Um, our seders. One of the things when we built our house was the dining room had to open into the living room so we could have a long seder table. And uh, I don' ; t remember seders as full as when we -- we had them. Uh, so we -- we do things better than they did. And I don' ; t know if they were looking out for their kids, to make us more American, or what they were doing, but -- I, um, I think our family was, uh, did well, compared to them, in this country. FERNHEIMER: In terms of maintaining Jewish identity? COOPER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Does that -- COOPER: Yes. Uh, they didn' ; t have an identity problem over there. I mean, everybody -- they were told who they were. And told what they could do and what they couldn' ; t do. Where they had to live. The Pale of Settlement and all that stuff. Uh. Yeah, I think we do better -- that we did better than they did, as far as observing the holidays. FERNHEIMER: And, is there a particular holiday that you have a , a, a good memory or a vivid memory of how your family would, uh, celebrate, that you' ; d like to share? COOPER: Grow-- growing up, you mean? FERNHEIMER: Either growing up or the family you' ; ve created. COOPER: To tell you the truth, I, I, I don' ; t, except family get-togethers. There were -- every Sunday, we would either go to their, uh -- FERNHEIMER: Your parents? COOPER: -- famil-- my -- with my parents. When I was growing up. We' ; d either go to the house of his sisters and brothers, or they would come to our house. And it was these family gatherings that I have more fond memories of than, than the holidays. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about one of those that stands out. COOPER: Well, every Sunday we would go either -- they lived across Elizabeth River in Portsmouth. And we' ; d go back and forth. And we' ; d eat all this cholesterol-inducing food. FERNHEIMER: Like what? COOPER: Like creamed herring. And, and cream sauce. And, uh, pickled herring. And, uh, blintzes with sour cream, and all milchik meals. But they were loaded with, uh, cholesterol stuff. They were very good. And, uh, I have fond memories of that -- playing with my cousins -- than I do of, uh, of holiday celebrations. And Friday nights, of course, at home. We' ; d have, uh, roast chicken almost every Friday night, and potatoes in the meal. Uh, and that was -- that was nice. FERNHEIMER: And what about your children c-- in, in comparison to your sense of Jewishness. COOPER: Well, interestingly enough, two of my -- my two boys married converts who keep kosher homes. My daughter doesn' ; t. Uh, and I think, uh, I think they' ; ll be a step away than I was with them. It seems to be the way it goes. I would love to see it go up, but I don' ; t have any hopes of that. My, uh, oldest granddaughter just made me a great-granddaddy Wednesday. FERNHEIMER: Aw, congratulations. COOPER: Thank you. FERNHEIMER: Mazel tov. COOPER: And she' ; s decided to have the kid circumcised in the hospital, which kind of disturbs me, but I can' ; t get involved in that. So I -- I don' ; t think it' ; s going to continue much past my kids, unfortunately. FERNHEIMER: Why do you think that is? COOPER: I think they get further away from it. That it doesn' ; t mean as much to them. And they get involved in the general community, and uh, and it just isn' ; t that important. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. How would you say where you grew up or and have lived your adult life here in Kentucky has affected the way that you think about Judaism or your relationship with Judaism? COOPER: Growing up in Kentucky, you ques-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m sorry. Growing up in Virginia, but living your adult life here in Kentucky. Both places that most people would consider part of the south. COOPER: Yeah. The nice thing about my growing up, and here I' ; m going to go counter to -- to intuition. I was happy that the -- the gentiles had no use for us in those days. I mean, I didn' ; t need them. They didn' ; t need me. But I knew every girl from Baltimore to Jacksonville -- Jewish girl. Because we used to go to AZA conventions, and they' ; d all come, because we didn' ; t go to proms. We -- we didn' ; t have any reason to go to proms. We didn' ; t date anybody else. We just dated each other, and then times when there were so few, you would grab an opportunity. ACA had, uh -- are you familiar with the AZA? FERNHEIMER: AZA is Aleph Zadik Aleph, right? COOPER: Yeah, and it' ; s -- FERNHEIMER: And it' ; s a Jewish fraternal organization? COOPER: Yeah. High school. And, and we used to have parties. And we' ; d go from Baltimore down to -- to, uh, well, maybe not Jacksonville, but Charleston. And, um, I thought it was great. I -- I didn' ; t need anything more than that. So that worked fine for me. Now, it doesn' ; t matter. It doesn' ; t seem to be that important to be with your own pe-- and maybe that' ; s a good thing. I -- I don' ; t happen to think so, but I don' ; t run the world. FERNHEIMER: Is that how you met Harriet? Did you meet her through AZA? COOPER: No. How I met Harriet was different than that. FERNHEIMER: If you feel comfortable, I would love to hear it. If you don' ; t feel comfortable, I understand. COOPER: Well, if we have time, I' ; ll be happy to tell you about it. FERNHEIMER: We' ; ve got some time. COOPER: Harriet and I went to school 12 miles apart for three years and never met. FERNHEIMER: In Virginia? COOPER: Never met. ' ; Til my senior year. She went to Radford, which was down the road from Virginia Tech. And my senior year, we were both out with someone, and my date introduced me to Harriet. And I knew her date, because he was from Tech. And then I graduated. I got a job with Dupont. Dupont sent me to their nylon plant in Martinsville, Virginia. Which happened to be where Harriet lived. The first day -- this is July of 1950. So I walk down the street into Globman' ; s Department Store, and I recognized her working behind the jewelry counter. She was home for the summer from school. This -- she was a year behind me. And she was working at the department store. And I saw her and I remembered meeting her, which surprised her, because I' ; m not very good at that. And this was July of ' ; 50. And we started hanging around together. And we only had a month, because in August I was back in the Navy. And the Navy sent me to the Naval Air Station in Norfolk. And uh, that was it. And then on homecoming weekend in October, I, uh, I got a three-day leave and drove to her school, and took her to Blacksburg, where Tech was. And we spent the weekend at the -- my homecoming, uh, 1950. And then I went back in the Navy, and uh, I don' ; t think I saw her again. The Navy sent me out to California, and on the way back, in May, I stopped at her school and have her a ring. And we were married in August. That' ; s how that happened. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s a nice story. COOPER: So I never knew her until I went to work in Martinsville for one month. So we didn' ; t spend much time together before we got married. FERNHEIMER: And how long were you married? COOPER: Sixty-three years. So it worked. Very well, actually. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. That' ; s a nice story. COOPER: Yeah, I think about it a lot. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Was there anything else that I haven' ; t asked you that you would like to share that you think would be important to talk about in terms of anything, really. In terms of your -- COOPER: Well, you -- FERNHEIMER: -- involvement with word processing, or the Jewish community, or, um, anything. COOPER: You seem to have covered it quite well. FERNHEIMER: Um, we' ; ve still got a little bit of time, so I wanted to ask you that. COOPER: Well, ask me a question. FERNHEIMER: Is there anything that you would offer as advice to Jewish students here at UK, or Jewish students -- Jewish -- Jewish people here in Kentucky, now, the next generation, uh? COOPER: S-- FERNHEIMER: Advice, or caveats, or, I don' ; t know. COOPER: Well, I don' ; t either. I -- I -- I think this is a wonderful place to bring up a family. Um, what I missed here was water. Growing up in, uh, Tidewater, Virginia, we had the ocean, the bay, the river, and here all we got' ; s this little pond behind my house. And, um, I miss -- I miss that. But as -- other than that, this is a -- it' ; s a very nice community to grow up in. I' ; m happy. I' ; m glad I didn' ; t pursue any other, uh. I had a chance to move with IBM somewhere else. And it could have been a good move, professionally. And I chose not to do it. And I have no regrets about not doing it. Um, I was asked to go back up north to the headquarters, and I would not ask Harriet to move back up north. She just did not care for it at all. So that sort of cemented my position with the company, and, uh, with this place. It' ; s good that I didn' ; t go anywhere. My mother came and lived her for four years. She died here, at our house, in ' ; 68. Um. I think it' ; s only going to get better because we' ; ll have more people at the medical center, and uh, uh it' ; s just going to be a better place. I think the two rabbis are getting along beautifully. I -- it' ; s a very nice Chabad rabbi who showed up, so I think that' ; s going to enhance the community. So I' ; m looking forward to, uh, things getting better. FERNHEIMER: What do you think some of the challenges the Jewish community will face in the future, uh, might be, or are? COOPER: Well, I think -- more than this community, you mean? Israel is going to be in deep -- more trouble -- unless they can settle something down. You know, it' ; s interesting that most of the turmoil going over there now has nothing to do with Israel. It' ; s Syria, and ISIS, and these other people who are fighting each other, and, and Israel' ; s out of the picture. But I -- I think Israel' ; s in -- in, uh, in danger. And I -- and I hope they' ; re going to be smart enough to side -- side-step it. I think, uh, Europe is going to -- to turn again. With all the Muslims coming in, it got to be not good for the Jewish population. I mean, 800,000 more in, uh, Germany, um, and they' ; re having trouble in Germany already. And even surprisingly Scandinavia is having trouble. It, um, is not a good -- not a good scene. And I -- and I don' ; t know what we can do -- FERNHEIMER: " ; We" ; -- who' ; s -- COOPER: -- to make it any better. FERNHEIMER: Who' ; s the " ; we" ; there? COOPER: The rest of the -- of the Jewish community in -- around the world. I don' ; t know what we can do to make it better, unless help all of them go to Israel, uh, leave. I know a lot of them have left France and gone, and I don' ; t understand how people can go back to Germany, but apparently they have quite a Jewish population in Germany. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. COOPER: And, um, I think things are not going to get better for them over there. I don' ; t see them getting worse over here. I think we' ; re -- established ourselves quite, quite well. And, uh -- FERNHEIMER: Here in the U.S. broadly, or here specifically in -- COOPER: U.S. -- FERNHEIMER: -- Kentucky? COOPER: U.S. U.S. Kentucky' ; s a different story. We -- we' ; re -- we' ; re not a blip on the radar here at all. You get outside of Louisville and Lexington, and there' ; s nothing. There' ; s nothing Jewish outside of Louisville and Lexington. We' ; ve got the only synagogues between Huntington, and Louisville, and Cincinnati, and Knoxville. FERNHEIMER: There are synagogues. They' ; re just not all operating. COOPER: Well, they' ; re not. I guess that' ; s what I' ; m talking about. But I think in -- in the country, uh, we' ; ve got people in good positions, and they' ; re behaving responsibly, and we' ; ve got nothing to -- to be ashamed of. FERNHEIMER: Uh, and you' ; re talking -- the " ; we" ; there is the Jewish-American community? COOPER: Yeah. Yes. FERNHEIMER: All right. Well, if you -- if there' ; s nothing else you' ; d like to add, Leon, I just want to thank you for spending an afternoon with me, uh -- COOPER: Well -- FERNHEIMER: -- talking about a lot of different things. And I hope it will be okay. I might have some students who want to follow-up with you about some of the things we talked about, and we said, " ; Oh, I can' ; t remember the date," ; or this or that. Uh, if that would be okay. COOPER: I' ; m not going anywhere. I' ; ll be here. FERNHEIMER: That' ; d be great. So. COOPER: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you. COOPER: Well, thank you. I hope your project goes well. FERNHEIMER: I -- we do, too. I -- this is a great contribution, so I really appreciate it. I knew I' ; d forget something. I' ; m glad we' ; re able to get back on here. Leon, can you tell me if Cooper was shortened, and if -- if so, when? And by whom? COOPER: My father wasn' ; t the first in his family to come over here. He had, uh, two sisters and a brother. And they shortened the name from Kyperstein to Cooper. He had an uncle in Philadelphia who kept Kyperstein. But when he came over, um, he came over as, uh, Cooper. My mother' ; s family name was Abramovitz. FERNHEIMER: How did they get from Abramovitz to -- COOPER: A -- Aframowitz. FERNHEIMER: Aframowitz to Rudman? COOPER: Oh, no. Not my -- I' ; m talking about my mother, not my wife. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry. COOPER: My mother. FERNHEIMER: And did they shorten that, also? COOPER: To Aframe. A-F-R-A-M-E. FERNHEIMER: Okay. COOPER: And their -- that became Aframe. And, uh, Kyperstein became, uh, Cooper. The last people to come over on my father' ; s side was his mother. My only grandparent to come over. And his two younger sisters. They came over as Kyperstein. FERNHEIMER: And how was Kyperstein spelled? Was it with a " ; C" ; also? COOPER: It was a Cyrillic spelling. K-Y-P-E-R. You know, that sort of thing. I happened to go to the Department of Interior where they have a floor full of, uh, reels of, uh, microfiche. Of every ship that ever landed. And everybody that was ever on it. And one of my aunts wrote a story of coming over here, and they had the second sailing of the Aquitania. So I went there, and I said, " ; Do you have a tape of the second sailing of the Aquitania?" ; And she did. And I put it on the machine, and I crank through, and there' ; s my bubbe and my two aunts. And they came under Kyperstein. Uh, that was interesting. I printed that out. That' ; s the only record I have of my, uh, parents coming over. FERNHEIMER: Wow. That' ; s pretty cool. And when did you find those records? COOPER: This had to be back in the ' ; 90s. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Thanks for allowing us to get that on the record. COOPER: Okay. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections and Digital Programs, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh434_jk010_cooper_ohm.xml 2015oh434_jk010_cooper_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh434_jk010_cooper_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leon Cooper, October 16, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Leon Cooper was born in Norfolk, Virginia in 1927 and came to Lexington with his wife, Harriet, and two of his three children during the mid-twentieth century (the third was born in Lexington). He came to Lexington after serving in the Navy on two separate occasions. His enlistment came as a response to the dangers confronting Jewish people around the world and his desire to take part in the fight in WWII. He talks about the changes in his Jewish identity in the Navy and the community he felt with the other servicemen. After the Navy, he moved to Lexington to work for IBM. Cooper was one of the first engineers on the mag tapes electric typewriter—an innovation that opened the door to modern day word processing. The discussion of his career with IBM and with QED Medical—a medical technology company he created after retiring from IBM—leads into the discussion of his experiences in the Lexington Jewish community. He talks about his and his family’s move into the community, Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and their quick involvement with leadership roles and community events. His uplifting stories of community events such as the Yom Kippur Ball convey the unity everyone felt in this Jewish community. Personal encounters with anti-Semitism and negative race relations ground his stories in the reality of the time. In this interview with Janice Fernheimer, Cooper describes his life through the context of Jewish identity and belonging to a community.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2015oh434_jk010
Subject
The topic of the resource
Genealogy
Discrimination
United States. Navy.
United States. Navy--Military life
World War, 1939-1945--Veterans.
Engineering
Education
Technological innovations
International Business Machines Corporation.
Lexington (Ky.)
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
Jewish businesspeople
Religion
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Jews--Identity.
Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/8fb2fcd3f6d0f746fdf48b8513399c69.jpeg
bc918cef6c12680c9459256d53b03088
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Lee Shai Weissbach
Interview Keyword
Lexington (Ky.)
Jews--Identity.
Religion
Worship (Judaism)
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh433_jk009 Interview with Lee Shai Weissbach, October 20, 2015 2015oh433_jk009 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Family histories. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Universities and colleges--Research University of Louisville Universities and colleges--Faculty. Judaism. Jewish families. Immigrants Emigration and immigration. Lexington (Ky.) Jews--Identity. Religion Worship (Judaism) Lee Shai Weissbach Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|21(11)|52(6)|75(9)|93(4)|110(5)|134(5)|155(10)|186(7)|199(6)|210(2)|230(6)|257(12)|273(1)|300(7)|318(10)|331(5)|356(3)|371(14)|388(6)|407(12)|422(13)|443(14)|455(1)|475(3)|504(5)|517(11)|528(11)|540(10)|552(6)|563(7)|585(13)|616(8)|648(5)|668(13)|697(8)|720(3)|740(4)|751(9)|765(1)|779(1)|789(11)|804(9)|815(11)|843(6)|861(4)|887(12)|905(6)|922(15)|938(4)|950(9)|966(2)|982(3)|999(6)|1009(9)|1020(2)|1036(9)|1052(6)|1064(2)|1100(9)|1111(6)|1123(9)|1145(5)|1183(1)|1203(14)|1222(4)|1233(4)|1246(5)|1261(4)|1281(3)|1298(6)|1328(3)|1345(11)|1359(3)|1398(6)|1412(7)|1423(6)|1454(9)|1470(14)|1485(13)|1505(6)|1522(9)|1537(4)|1558(2)|1584(3)|1598(7)|1610(5)|1624(14)|1640(3)|1661(4)|1681(8)|1697(10)|1725(6)|1737(5)|1747(16)|1767(8)|1787(14)|1804(7)|1816(11)|1832(11)|1862(9)|1893(4)|1912(1)|1923(10)|1937(12)|1965(2)|1982(2)|1998(3)|2015(7) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253323862" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family and upbringing So my name is Janice W. Fernheimer. Weissbach explains how he was born in pre-state Palestine on May 14th of 1947. His father was born in Alexandria, Egypt and his mother in Norfolk, Virginia. They met in Tel Aviv, Israel in the 1930s. They immigrated to the United States in 1952 and settled down in Cincinnati, Ohio. His parents opened the Yavneh Day School which was the community Hebrew school of Cincinnati where they both taught Hebrew. Alexandria (Egypt) ; American Express ; Ashkenazi ; Balfour Declaration ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Galil ; Haifa ; Hebrew ; Hebrew Speaking Society ; Israel ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Maurice Weissbach ; Miriam Weissbach ; New York (N.Y.) ; Norfolk (Va.) ; Observant ; Orthodox Judaism ; Palestine ; Pogroms ; Romania ; Tel Aviv ; University of Haifa ; World War II ; Yavneh Day School ; Yodfat Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish families. 32.7940463, 34.98957100000007 17 Haifa, Israel 825 Immediate family and arrival in Louisville, Kentucky I'm gonna ask you more questions about that memoir in a little bit-- Weissbach's wife, Sharon Goller (later Sharon Weissbach) was born in Lexington, Kentucky where her grandfather worked as a kosher butcher. Her family moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she met Lee Shai while they were members of the Habonim youth group. The Habonim youth group was a Labor Zionist Youth Group. Their involvement in the youth group put them together for many years as youth before they began dating just before college. They both attended the University of Cincinnati as undergraduates and graduated together. They adopted two children, Jacob Zvi Weissbach and Maya Weissbach. Jacob works at the National Museum of American Jewish History in Philadelphia and Maya works at the Anthropologie store in Louisville. Lee Shai and Sharon both finished their PhDs in Boston. Lee Shai began looking for work at universities with active Jewish communities when he was offered a job at the University of Louisville. Anthropologie Store ; Boston (Mass.) ; Boston College ; Brandeis University ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Conservative Movement ; Habonim ; Indiana University ; Jacob Zvi ; Kosher butchers ; Labor Zionist youth group ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Maya Weissbach ; National Museum of American Jewish History ; Nativ College Leadership Program ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; School of the Art Institute of Chicago ; Sharon Goller ; Three Rivers (Mich.) ; University of Louisville ; University of Pittsburgh ; Wapakoneta (Ohio) ; Zvi Hirsch Education ; Employment ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 39.1031182, -84.51201960000003 17 Cincinnati, Ohio 1469 Jewish life and the Jewish Studies program at the University of Louisville Yeah. So, wow, 37 years is a long time to spend-- Weissbach discusses how he was hired at the University of Louisville to fill a French history teaching position. He had written his doctoral dissertation on child labor in nineteenth century France. He also began teaching Jewish history courses because he had an interest in it from his previous research in France. He eventually was given a state grant to hire someone in a Jewish Studies full-time position. One problem he discusses is the instability with a Hebrew language professor at the university. He discusses the Jewish community of Louisville and how they have maintained Jewish programming despite harder financial times with the Jewish Community Center and Jewish Federation in Louisville. He then describes the Jewish student life at the University of Louisville, which has always been small, and their Hillel program. American Jewish history ; Bucks for Brains Program ; Chabad ; Conservative Temple ; Hebrew language course ; Hillel ; Jewish Community Center ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Jewish history ; Jewish Studies ; Louisville Jewish students ; Natalie Polzer ; Reform Temple ; Soviet Jewish Immigration ; University of Louisville College environment ; College students--Religious life ; College teachers--Social conditions ; Judaism. ; Universities and colleges--Faculty. ; University of Louisville 38.21504520000001, -85.76015569999998 17 University of Louisville 2135 Working in the field of Jewish history I know that you--you've talked a li--a bit about your graduate work at Harvard, in French history, and in fact, that's how you got the job at University of Louisville. Weissbach discusses how his research into French Jewish history became very comparative to research into small town Jewish communities in the United States. This revelation led him to finding communities with approximately 1000 Jews but he could not find census data that tracked people by religion. In order to find these communities he first set out to find all of the synagogues of Kentucky which led to his book " ; Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History" ; in 1995. He later wrote the book " ; Jewish Life in Small-Town America" ; which focused on the case of the Jewish community in Lexington, Kentucky. " ; Jewish Life in Small-Town America" ; ; " ; Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History" ; ; AJS Review ; Census ; French Jewish history ; Harvard ; Kentucky Humanities Council ; Small-town Jews ; Synagogue ; University of Louisville Emigration and immigration. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Universities and colleges--Research 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky 2741 Researching small-town Kentucky Jewish communities All right. I want to pause a minute to-- Weissbach discusses the various Jewish communities in Kentucky outside of Louisville and Lexington that he wrote about in his book " ; Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History." ; The Jewish communities typically followed migration patterns into the state, with many of the first appearing along the Ohio River. The small Jewish communities of Kentucky adapted their own identities and often had to compromise between different degrees of observance in Judaism to exist. These various Jewish communities existed in the Kentucky cities listed in the keywords below. " ; Jewish Louisville: Portrait of a Community" ; ; Ashland (Ky.) ; B'nai B'rith ; Carly Ely ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Colorado Springs (Colo.) ; Covington (Ky.) ; East European Jews ; German Jews ; Greater Cincinnati Area ; Henderson (Ky.) ; Hopkinsville (Ky.) ; Jewish communities in Kentucky ; Jewish Federation ; Journal of American Jewish History ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Locust Grove Historic Home ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Main Street Merchants ; Newport (Ky.) ; Ohio River ; Orthodox Judaism ; Owensboro (Ky.) ; Paducah (Ky.) ; Pittsburgh (Penn.) ; Reform Judaism ; Southern Illinois Jewish Federation ; synagogue ; Yiddish ; Yud Schwartz Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Universities and colleges--Research ; Worship (Judaism) 37.0833893, -88.60004779999997 17 Paducah, Kentucky 3732 Kentucky Judaism Um, but, uh, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about--uh, you've mentioned some of this, you know, stability, and--and in--and mobility, but if there are some other key components to the narratives that shape the way that Kentucky Jews either think about themselves, or that others think about the narrative of-- Weissbach discusses some of the factors that impacted Kentucky Judaism over time. These factors include proximity to a major city, the Civil war, Sephardim, degree of observance, and various businesses. Weissbach also makes an attempt to help Dr. Fernheimer with the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project by suggesting names of people for her to interview in the future. He also discusses how Jews began to become involved in Kentucky politics. Anshei Sfard (Louisville, synagogue) ; Auerbach ; Bernheim ; Cincinnati Metropolitan Area ; Conservative Judaism ; Covington (Ky.) ; East European Jews ; German Jews ; Hasidic Jews ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Hyman Family ; Institute for Southern Jewish Life ; International Business Machines (IBM) ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish Confederates ; Jewish Federation ; Kentucky Jews during the Civil War ; Kentucky Jews in politics ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Main Street Merchants ; Mansbach family ; Marnie Davis ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Morris Weintraub ; Northern Kentucky ; Paducah (Ky.) ; Rabbis ; Reform Judaism ; Rhodes (Spain) ; Sephardic Jews ; Shapira Family ; Shofar (journal) ; Simcha Kling ; The Union ; World War II Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Politics and government ; Religion ; Religion and politics ; Worship (Judaism) 38.2262282, -85.6483404 17 Anshei Sfard Synagogue in Louisville, Kentucky 4996 Personal and Jewish community life Um, but it's interesting that you start talking about your own, uh, personal involvement in the community. And actually, that's sort of where I'd like to go next. Weissbach discusses the impact Kentucky Judaism had on his home family life, which he said was very little. He says the congregation at synagogue has been his and his wife's Jewish anchor, while the Jewish community found at Jewish summer camps served as such for his kids. Weissbach and his family have attended both Adath Jeshurun and Keneseth Israel synagogues off and on during the time that they have lived in Louisville. He talks about the disappearance of kosher butchers, the closing of the Jewish day school, and the contemplated merger of the two conservative synagogues. He also discusses Jewish programming through the Jewish community center and the Jewish studies department at the University of Louisville. Adath Jeshurun Synagogue (Louisville, Ky.) ; Camp Ramah ; Chavurah movement ; Crichton ; Eliahu Academy ; Eliahu Spivak ; Etgar Keret ; Gary Zola ; Highlands (Louisville, Ky.) ; Jewish Community Center ; Jewish counterculture ; Jewish Film Festival ; Jewish programming ; Jewish Studies Program ; Kenesseth Israel Synagogue (Louisville, Ky.) ; Levine family ; Strathmore neighborhood ; United Synagogue Youth Movement ; Vaad kashrut Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.224086, -85.67484000000002 17 Keneseth Israel Synagogue in Louisville, Kentucky 6040 Family's Jewish observance So I, I wonder, uh, can you talk a little bit about--these might seem like kind of strangely personal questions after these large questions-- Weissbach discusses how his family has progressively become less observant with his children. Weissbach says he will not do any casual shopping on Shabbat but will spend money if necessary to enjoy the day of Shabbat such as paying an admission fee to the zoo. His son will spend money on Shabbat but still observes, while his daughter rarely will observe Shabbat at all. American Jewish history ; Jewish observance ; Jewish programs ; Kentucky Jewish history ; Lee Shai Weissbach ; Rosh Hashanah ; Seder ; Shabbat ; University of Kentucky ; University of Louisville Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 Oral History Weissbach explains how he was born in pre-state Palestine in 1947. His father was born in Alexandria, Egypt and his mother in Norfolk, Virginia. They met in Tel Aviv, Israel in the 1930s. They immigrated to the United States in 1952 and settled down in Cincinnati, Ohio. His parents opened the Yavneh Day School which was the community Hebrew school of Cincinnati where they both taught Hebrew. Weissbach's wife, Sharon Goller (later Sharon Weissbach) was born in Lexington, Kentucky where her grandfather worked as a kosher butcher. Her family moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she met Lee Shai while they were members of the Habonim youth group. The Habonim youth group was a Labor Zionist Youth Group. Their involvement in the youth group put them together for many years as youth before they began dating just before college. Weissbach discusses how he was hired at the University of Louisville to fill a French history teaching position. He also began teaching Jewish history courses, and eventually was given a state grant to hire someone in a Jewish Studies full-time position. Weissbach discusses how his research into French Jewish history became very comparative to research into small town Jewish communities in the United States which led to his books " ; Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History" ; and " ; Jewish Life in Small-Town America." ; Weissbach discusses the impact Kentucky Judaism had on his home family life, which he said was very little. FERNHEIMER: So my name is Janice W. Fernheimer. I an associate professor of writing rhetoric and digital studies, and the director of the Jewish Studies program here at the University of Kentucky. Today is October 20th, 2015, and it is my great pleasure and honor to have the renowned professor Lee Shai Weissbach with me. I hope I' ; ve pronounced your name correctly. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Yes. Very good. FERNHEIMER: Um, to--to give us an interview as part of the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project. And if that' ; s not a mouthful, I' ; m not sure what is. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Well, I' ; m glad to be a participant. Thank you for inviting me. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s really--uh, I was--just before the cameras were rolling was telling professor Weissbach how much of an honor truly it is to have the opportunity to meet you in person, and--and to get you to talk about things Jewish and Kentucky with you, because if anyone has really put Jewish Kentucky on the map, it is you. Um-- WEISSBACH: Well I appreciate that. And again, it' ; s--uh, it' ; s--I kind of backed into it in some ways. I think perhaps, we' ; ll talk a little bit about how I got interested in Jewish Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Yes! WEISSBACH: But, uh, I' ; m glad to be here. FERNHEIMER: Let' ; s start at the very beginning. WEISSBACH: The very beginning. FERNHEIMER: The very beginning. What was your name at birth, and when and where were you born? WEISSBACH: My name at birth was Lee-Shai Weissbach, with a hyphen between the Lee and the Shai, in Hebrew. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: Because I was born in pre-state Palestine, uh, exactly a year to the day before the state. So May 14th, 1947. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. WEISSBACH: In Haifa. Um, my family came to the States when I was five and a half years old. So basically, I grew up in America, and still am primarily an American. I tell people that I spent six years in Israel, from ages zero to five, and then from age 59 to 60, when I had a Fulbright fellowship at the University of Haifa. (Fernheimer laughs) So back in my birth town at that point. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. I don' ; t think I knew that you were born there. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um, so part--part of this anticipates my next question-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --which is, um, are your parents alive, and where were they born, and when did they come to the US, and what were their names and occupations? WEISSBACH: This is--do we have enough tape for this? (laughs) Uh, my father was born in Alexandria, Egypt-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, wow-- WEISSBACH: --to an Ashkenazi Jewish family. His generation was the only generation. There was a large Ashkenazi community in Alexandria. I' ; m not sure of the original origin of my grandfather on my father' ; s side. I know my grandmother on my father' ; s side was born in Romania, and I suspect sh--her family came to Egypt after the Romanian pogroms of 1878, because there was quite a bit of migration of Jews out of Romania, for sure. And one of the places they went were to port cities around the Mediterranean, including Alexandria, Egypt, which is where my father was born. My, uh, my mother was born in Alexandria--sorry, in Norfolk, Virginia. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) OK. WEISSBACH: Because I had one parent born in Alexandria and one in Norfolk, but not Virginia. Egypt and Virginia. That' ; s because my grandfather, born in Lithuania, came to the United States in the mass migration of East European Jews in 1904, and ended up in Norfolk, where some members of the family had already come. So my mother, who was, uh, oldest surviving child, was born there in 1909. FERNHEIMER: And what was her name? WEISSBACH: Her name was Miriam Weissbach. FERNHEIMER: And what was your father' ; s name? WEISSBACH: My father' ; s name was Maurice, M-a-u-r-i-c-e. Both of them, obviously, had transnational connections from the very beginning. Um, my grandfather on my mother' ; s side was an ardent Zionist, and decided in 1921, with the Balfour Declaration, that he should put his money where his mouth was, as it were, and took the family--my mother was then 12--uh, took the family to Israel, to Palestine. And he remained there the rest of his life. Just as a side note-- FERNHEIMER: Is this the one that you wrote the--that you edited the book about? WEISSBACH: Yes. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: So that grandfather wrote a memoir, which he finished in the 1940s. And I recently translated the memoir from Hebrew, edited it, added footnotes and an introduction, and chapter introduction, and it was published about a year ago by Stanford University Press. So his backstory is quite readily available. And my father kicked around--he actually ran away from home, didn' ; t finish high school, and ended up in Cuba, and then in the United States, and then back to Palestine. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: So my parents met in the 1930s in Tel Aviv. My brother was born in Israel before World War II. And I was born after World War II, so there' ; s over 10 years between us. And the explanation for that is that there was a war in between us. FERNHEIMER: Wow. What' ; s your brother' ; s name? WEISSBACH: My brother' ; s name is Yehuda, and he Hebraized the name, kind of working off of--of Weissbach, which means " ; a white brook." ; He fudged it somewhat, and took the name Agmor-- FERNHEIMER: --Agmor-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm, from agam or, right? Uh, he passed away just six months ago, actually. FERNHEIMER: Oh. I' ; m very sorry to hear that. WEISSBACH: Uh, he had had a stroke several years before that, and he was in quite bad shape, unfortunately, for the last few years of his life. But he left five children and eighteen grandchildren that, uh, my wife and I are quite close to. We try to get to Israel every couple of years, uh, or so, and we' ; ve managed to do that over the last 20 or 30 years. So we' ; re connected to that branch of the family, my brother' ; s family. FERNHEIMER: The Agmors. WEISSBACH: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And are they mostly in Haifa, where you were born? Or are they all throughout-- WEISSBACH: That' ; s another--that' ; s another question (laughs) that could take an e--easily an hour to answer. Um, they are in a co--in what was a collective settlement in the Galil. It' ; s now privatized. It' ; s called Yodfat. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: At the site of ancient Yodfat, which was the last stronghold of the Jews against the Romans in ancient times. As Masada was in the south, Yodfat was in the north. And in the 1960s, when the Israeli government was trying to increase the Jewish population of the Galilee, this settlement was established. And my brother was one of the founders. So they are still--all the children remained at Yodfat, even though they work in various places. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: And they kind of commute. Um, then they' ; re--they' ; re all interesting, wonderful families, actually. But, uh, they' ; re a fixture at Yodfat, basically. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And did you have any other siblings? Or is it-- WEISSBACH: No, just the one brother. FERNHEIMER: Just the one brother. And how--he was older than you? WEISSBACH: Yes, t--by ten and a half years. So he actually--I guess the missing piece there is, when we came, I was five and a half, but he was already sixteen. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. WEISSBACH: And never really wanted to adjust to America. So after three years here with the family, he went back to Israel on his own at nineteen, and remained there the rest of his life. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: In fact, his English was always heavily accented. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: That' ; s--that' ; s pretty amazing when you think about the k--the kind of different timing, and how that--that impacts the different paths. WEISSBACH: Yes. Mm. I sometimes joke that we both grew up as only children. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. I can see how that big shift of difference would--would make that experientially so. How would you describe your parents' ; relationship to Judaism, and what did they teach you about Judaism? WEISSBACH: My mother came from a fairly observant family, as is--is revealed my grandfather' ; s memoir. She, of my grandfather' ; s five children, was the most observant, only she was not highly observant. In Israel, she kept a kosher home in part because of her father, my grandfather. I think, yeah, if she were on her own, she wouldn' ; t have necessarily been very careful about the kashrut. She was never a strict Sabbath observer, but Friday night dinner was always a Sabbath dinner of some sort. Um, and she kept that approach when she came to America, that is, to be traditional without being Orthodox. Let' ; s put it that way. My father, on the other hand, uh, grew up in a very assimilated Egyptian Jewish home. He went to school in French and British schools in--in Alexandria. Eventually, he spoke nine languages. But the first two were--or the first three, really, were French, English, and Arabic. And then he acquired several other languages, partly because of his service in World War II with the British Army. At the end of the war, he was stationed in Greece, for example, and Greek was his weakest language, but he spoke Greek as well. Passably. Passable Greek. Um, so he was quite heavil--highly assimilated, never really observant in any sense. Uh, though he didn' ; t object to my mother' ; s keeping a kosher home. Um, what--one of the things they both shared, really, was an attachment to Jewish culture, and to the Hebrew language. Um, my father, for example, was the longtime--uh, a longtime officer of the Hebrew Speaking Society in Cincinnati, Ohio, which is where the family ended up. Uh, I guess that' ; s a missing piece also of this trajectory. When we came to America when I was five and a half--that was 1952--we spent a year in New York, and then moved to Cincinnati, which is where I grew up. FERNHEIMER: What brought you from New York to Cincinnati? WEISSBACH: Uh, work. My father was working for American Express in New York, and got a promotion to move to the Cincinnati office. And then, uh, they were opening the Yavneh Day School, which was the community Hebrew school, day school in Cincinnati. And she became the first--first grade teacher. So she was recruited to teach. So since they both had work opportunities in Cincinnati, that' ; s where we--that' ; s where we moved. FERNHEIMER: A--and tell me again--you might have already said this-- WEISSBACH: --mm-- FERNHEIMER: --but your parents' ; names? Uh-- WEISSBACH: Maurice and Miriam. FERNHEIMER: Maurice and Miriam. And so she was teaching at the Yavneh School in Cincinnati? WEISSBACH: And she had a long career. Uh, again, uh, a little side note. I just, last weekend, was at my fiftieth high school reunion in Cincinnati. FERNHEIMER: Oh wow! WEISSBACH: And at least a half a dozen people came up to me there and said, " ; You know, your mother was my Hebrew teacher." ; (laughs) So there--there are strong Cincinnati connections. Uh, yes, and sh--she had probably about a twenty-five or thirty-year career in teaching, as a principal of an afternoon Hebrew school, and as a longtime teacher in a day school. So-- FERNHEIMER: And so you--you remained--I' ; m assuming, but correct me if it' ; s not a correct assumption--(laughs) that you were fluent in Hebrew from living in Israel? Um, did you--were you able to retain that while you were here in the US? WEISSBACH: Well, uh, no. First of all, the--the language at home was really primarily English. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: That' ; s the language--that, uh, was easiest for my father and my mother to share. My mother' ; s Hebrew was obviously excellent. She--she went to high school at the Gymnasia Herzliya in Tel Aviv, which was the first Hebrew-speaking high school in pre-state Palestine. Um, but English was the language that we tended to speak i--in Amer--uh, in Israel before we came to America. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. Interesting. WEISSBACH: When we came to America, I forgot all of my Hebrew. I had been to kindergarten, nursery school at least. Yeah, nursery school, because at--Kindergarten, I did in New York. In nursery school, I, of course, learned Hebrew, and was fluent in Hebrew. In that sense, I was bilingual. But when we came, I didn' ; t use my Hebrew at all. And I only started to return to my Hebrew, uh, at the age of ten when I made my first visit back to Israel after having left at the age of five. Uh, uh, and since then I' ; ve tried to keep it up. Obviously, it helped that I was--that I was there for the year, sabbatical year. My spoken Hebrew is much better than either my reading or my writing. Uh, and in fact, for a while, I hesitated to do the translation project I talked about with my grandfather' ; s memoir. But, uh, a very well-known poet in Israel who I know, Hava Pinhas-Cohen-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --convinced me that my Hebrew was good enough to do the translation. So I tackled it, and it was--uh, it was not easy, but I think the result is very good. And I--if I say so myself. (laughs) Uh, but it was interesting to learn a lot of translation theory along the way. Memoir theory, I had to familiarize myself with those fields, as well as with kind of pure history, or pure social and political history. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And I can ask you more questions about that memoir in a little bit. WEISSBACH: OK. FERNHEIMER: I want to focus a little bit on family, uh, for just a few more minutes, if--if I may. WEISSBACH: Sure. FERNHEIMER: Um, what is your wife' ; s name? I understand that she comes from Lexington, Kentucky. WEISSBACH: Yes. Her name is--was, before we married--Sharon Goller, G-o-l-l-e-r. FERNHEIMER: OK, G-o-l-l-- WEISSBACH: --l-e-r. FERNHEIMER: Relation, or not relation to the Gullers? WEISSBACH: Yes, it' ; s--uh, the two branches of the family pronounce it differently. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: Um, yes, her grandfather had a kosher butcher here, and was a--a--really a mainstay of Ohavay Zion Synagogue. But her branch of the family, as her father moved to Cincinnati, uh, when my wife--my future wife (laughs) at that point--was six years old, or so. So both she and I ended up in Cincinnati from different places, uh, in the early 1950s. Um, her mother was actually from Wapakoneta, Ohio, and they had met in Cincinnati at one point. That is, my wife' ; s father and mother had met in Cincinnati. So Cincinnati was a familiar place. Um, we knew each other slightly in Hebrew School and, uh, we were--were at the same high school, although we were a year apart. She' ; s a year older than I am. Uh, in high school, but a--the main connection, the main connection we had with each other, was through Habonim, the Labor Zionist youth group. FERNHEIMER: OK. WEISSBACH: Which, uh, had an active program in Cincinnati, where we eventually became leaders of--of the city chapter, and which had a summer camp--one of a network of Habonim summer camps--in Three Rivers, Michigan, where the two of us spent many summers as campers, and then as staff. So, uh, so we became a couple by the time we were in college. She actually spent a year in Israel between high school and college on the Habonim Year Program. And that' ; s when I caught up, so we started college together, and graduated together (laughs) at the University of Cincinnati. And we got married between our junior and senior year. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: Yeah. It was ridiculously young, but it seems to have worked. We' ; re headed towards our forty-eighth anniversary. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Mazel tov, that' ; s quite an accomplishment. Uh, do you all have children? WEISSBACH: We have two children. FERNHEIMER: What are their names and ages, and dates of birth, and where were they born? WEISSBACH: Both children are adopted. We--after Cincinnati, after UC, we moved to Boston, where, uh, the--the move was initially for me to attend graduate school at Harvard, although along the way, my wife started a graduate program as well. She was trained at Cincinnati as a teacher of the deaf. FERNHEIMER: Oh, OK. WEISSBACH: So for five years in Boston, she taught deaf children, but then decided she wanted to do special education research. So she started a doctoral program, and eventually got her PhD at Boston College. Uh, and in that period, uh, we--not being able to have children ourselves, signed up for an adoption, waited a number of years. And our son arrived on the day of our tenth anniversary. FERNHEIMER: Oh, that' ; s a really nice mechaya, as you' ; d say. WEISSBACH: Exactly, exactly. It' ; s a--we no longer have to buy each other presents, you know? You can' ; t top that. Um, actually, he was born in Boston. We had just moved to Louisville, and, uh--and then found out the first week we were there that the child was available. Our almost three-year wait was over. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: So we picked him up in Boston, and he grew up as a Kentuckian. His name is, uh, Jacob Zvi, Yakov Zvi. But he goes by the nickname " ; Cobie." ; Everybody knows him as Cobie. Um, he' ; s actually named for the Zvi, who' ; s Zvi Hirsch, but of Lexington grandfather of my wife, which makes him his great-grandfather. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. WEISSBACH: Was Zvi Hirsch, so the Zvi is for--for that name. And the Jacob is after my wife' ; s father, also a Lexington native. So the--the Kentucky connections are much stronger on my wife' ; s side, obviously, than on mine. Although I think when she left at six, if you had asked her to predict the future, would she be back in Kentucky, she would see no reason. But now, we' ; ve been back for 37 years. FERNHEIMER: Oh. WEISSBACH: Um, Cobie, uh, went to school at the University of Pittsburgh. He did actually a year program in Israel between high school and college as well. Uh, the Nativ Program, the Conservative Movement. Got his undergraduate degree Pitt, and his master' ; s degree in Jewish communal service at Brandeis. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: At Pitt, he met his wife, Shira. Uh, and, uh, they now live in Philadelphia. They have two kids, so we have two grandchildren. FERNHEIMER: Mazel tov. WEISSBACH: Rina and Ari. Um, and he is--they--they stayed in Boston for a few years, uh, but then moved to Philadelphia, where Cobie got a job at the National Museum of American Jewish History, where he' ; s now director of development. And Shira is education director at a large Conservative synagogue. FERNHEIMER: Wonderful. And what year was he born? You-- WEISSBACH: He was born in 1978. FERNHEIMER: Nineteen seventy-eight. And you said you have another child? WEISSBACH: Yes. As soon as we got to Kentucky, we signed up for another adoption. You know, the first time around--this is something that parents that have biological children don' ; t get to do. We got to choose the sex. (laughs) First time around, we said we don' ; t care. Since we got a son, we asked for a daughter the second time. That' ; s Maya, who was born in 1982, and we adopted early in 1983 when she was about eight months old. FERNHEIMER: Oh. WEISSBACH: Uh, so she obviously grew up here as well. Did her--she did a year in Indiana University, but didn' ; t like it. So then after a short break, she finished a degree in Fine Arts at, uh, the School of the Art Institute in Chicago. She' ; s now living in Louisville, trying to do some art. She' ; s interested somewhat in film as well. Uh, working at the Anthropologie store in Louisville, doing some design work for them, which is nice, although mostly it' ; s kind of retail work. So she' ; s supporting herself, which you can' ; t always say about children who are artists. And it' ; s not completely clear if she' ; ll want to stay in Louisville, or what her long-term future is. Uh, so she' ; s 33 now, and we' ; ll see. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, that' ; s pretty exciting. Uh, so 37 years is a long time to be in Louisville. I want you to kind of go back (laughs) to that initial, uh--I--I presume it' ; s the University of Louisville that brought you to Louisville. WEISSBACH: Yes, exactly. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Um, can you tell me a little bit about the thought processes that you and your wife kind of--the conversations you had about discussing, uh-- WEISSBACH: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --uh, that move? And then we' ; ll--I' ; ll have some other questions about Louisville. (laughs) WEISSBACH: OK. Um, we were in Boston when I finished my degree and started looking for a job. And it was in the period when, as today, jobs for--in the humanities, especially, for PhDs, new PhDs, are few and far between. There are many more people available. And it actually took me three years to get a tenure-track job. In those three years, I did part-time teaching in Boston. The good thing was that my wife finished her work towards a PhD as well. But when I--in searching for a job, we had a kind of litmus test for where we would be willing to move. And the test was, we would move any place that had a Jewish day school and a kosher butcher. And the reason for that is--one is obvious, that is that we are involved in Jewish life and we wanted to make sure there was a Jewish infrastructure. But just as important was that we realized you could not find a city with a Jewish day school and a kosher butcher that didn' ; t also have a decent zoo, and a symphony orchestra, and an airport with a reasonable flight schedule. Uh, and a lot of other things like that that create, you know, quality of life. So that became a test. And, uh, I applied for a number of things, obviously, in--in the three-year period, and while I was doing part-time teaching in the Boston area. But Louisville was the first tenure-track position that was in a city which, at the time, had a Jewish day school and a kosher butcher. And, uh, which was attractive from that point of view. And of course, it wasn' ; t too foreign for us, having grown up in Cincinnati, and for Sharon having been born in Kentucky. So I--I actually published this as a--as an introduction to one of my articles. FERNHEIMER: I' ; ve read this. WEISSBACH: Yes. FERNHEIMER: I' ; ve read it, but I want it on the record. (laughs) So--so forgive me for asking anyway. WEISSBACH: Yes. She was working at a research firm that was run by Boston College, and was staffed primarily by doctoral students at the college. And when her colleagues there heard that she was coming to Kentucky, they said, " ; Isn' ; t that scary for you to move to Kentucky from Boston, Massachusetts, of all places?" ; And she said, " ; No, it' ; s really not that scary, because I' ; m familiar with it. I was actually born in Kentucky." ; And their response was, " ; You were born in Kentucky? We thought you were Jewish!" ; (laughs) I' ; ll tell that story tomorrow night at my talk, too. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s a good one. It-- WEISSBACH: --it is-- FERNHEIMER: --it' ; s a great one. And it' ; s a great way to start an article. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So, wow, 37 years is a long time to spend-- WEISSBACH: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --at one institution. Um, can you tell me a little bit about how, uh, Jewish life at the University of Louisville and Jewish studies has changed-- WEISSBACH: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --during the time that you' ; ve been there? WEISSBACH: Well, there was no Jewish studies program at all when I came 37 years ago. Uh, I was actually hired primarily to fill a French history position. My doctoral work--my doctoral dissertation--was on child labor in nineteenth century France. And it had a small Jewish component. I wrote a little bit about the reaction of the Jewish community to child labor legislation, because it involved Sunday restrictions on work, and that meant for observant Jewish families, two days when children couldn' ; t work. And for some families, that was significant. So there was a little Jewish piece. But, um, and I had done a field in Jewish history in graduate school, as well as in French history and in social and economic history. And so I had always had the interest in Jewish history, but the dissertation was kind of mainstream French social history, French institutional history. But the ad for the job at the University of Louisville said that they were interested also in a comparative perspective. So the fact that I had an interest in Jewish history was actually a plus and not a minus. And there was no objection where, after I got to Louisville, um, I proposed, uh, a survey of Jewish history as well. So I introduced it one year, uh, a Jewish history component. That is, a one-semester course. It went well. Uh, and it got enough enrollment and enough interest that I split that into a two-semester course. And then later, as I got more involved in American Jewish history, I added a course, an upper-level course in American Jewish history specifically. So I was teaching three Jewish history courses, as long--uh, along with courses in French history, two-semester survey, a course on the French Revolution, uh, a general nineteenth century Europe course that I' ; d taught a few times. Because of the work on child labor, I also did a family history course at one point. Um, and there were a few other professors that taught courses with some Jewish content, but again, no Jewish studies program as such. I, early on in my career there, saw the advantages and--and, in fact, the need for a Jewish studies position, that, uh, my feeling was the university itself would benefit. Certainly Jewish students--of which there weren' ; t all that many--would benefit from it, but also, the general student population would have an opportunity to learn about, what for them would be a different culture, a different religious group, and so forth. Um, so it was always kind of on my agenda, although I--I probably, if I went to my files and pulled out the first letter I wrote to the Jewish Federation, saying that maybe the Federation should take a hand in trying to engineer some sort of--or at least advocate a--a Jewish studies position of some sort. Probably goes back 20 years, maybe 25 years. And of course, as you probably know, we finally did get that position partly funded by the Jewish Fund for--uh, Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence, partly by, uh, a state grant, so-called Bucks for Brains Program, was partly responsible for that as well. So, uh, more and more individual courses were being added. Now we have an actual chair in Jewish studies. The main missing component is there' ; s never been a Hebrew language component that was stable and ongoing. There had been some part-time instructors in Hebrew language over, I think, already 37 years ago, there--there was some part-time teaching of Hebrew language. But that still is a--a gap in the Jewish studies program at Louisville, and hopefully will be filled one of these years in the not-to-distant future. Um, you know, it' ; s hard to remember exactly what things were like 37 years ago in general, right? Uh, I know statistically, the quality of our students has improved in terms of the scores they come in with from high school, in terms of the geographic distribution of students that come. You know, as the--as the reputation of the school improves, it draws more and more out of state students. So the school is getting--is getting better in that sense, in terms of its academic quality. I must say that I, in individual courses, didn' ; t feel a huge shift over the 37 years. But there were always some wonderful students in--in all of my classes, uh, especially upper-level classes. And--and I truly believe that a student of U of L, like a student at UK, uh, can get an absolutely first-rate education, if that student is a little bit careful about choosing the right courses and talking to people about which professors have--uh, have high standards, and--and really put a lot of effort into teaching. Uh, certainly with--because of the job market, we were drawing faculty from top universities all over the country. I' ; m sure that' ; s true of UK, too. So--so it' ; s gotten to be a better school in that sense. Uh, Jewish life generally in Louisville, the--the size of the Jewish population hasn' ; t changed all that much. When we came, that was one of the periods when s--Jews from the Former Soviet Union were starting to come. FERNHEIMER: What year was that? Uh, remind me. WEISSBACH: I came in 1978. FERNHEIMER: OK. Oh, that' ; s right. When your son was born. WEISSBACH: Right. Right. Right. Um-- FERNHEIMER: --sorry, I didn' ; t mean to-- WEISSBACH: --I--yeah, it' ; s all right. I would say that in recent years--well, some of the Jewish institutions in the city have fallen on hard times financially. That was true of the Jewish Community Center. The Jewish Federation has also had its ups and downs. I think in recent years, it' ; s been down somewhat in terms of its activism. I don' ; t know about fundraising. I don' ; t really keep track of that. I don' ; t think there' ; s been a huge change. Uh, but in terms of programming and so forth, I would say there' ; s a bit of a decline. Fortunately, the slack has been picked up by the various congregations. So there' ; s still a lot of good Jewish programming going on, especially on the part of the two Reform temples and the two Conservative congregations in town. Um, there' ; s, of course, a Chabad, which also contributes to the general Jewish programming in the community. FERNHEIMER: We have one too, now. (laughs) WEISSBACH: You have your own Chabad rabbi? FERNHEIMER: We just got one. WEISSBACH: OK. FERNHEIMER: I believe he' ; s related to the one in Louisville. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Ah. FERNHEIMER: I think it' ; s, uh, his son, if I' ; m not mistaken. WEISSBACH: Oh. It could well be, because--because there are several of his children that would be about the right age now to get involved that way. Okay, next leading question? FERNHEIMER: Next leading question. WEISSBACH: I' ; m not giving you any short answers. FERNHEIMER: No, no, that' ; s--I--that' ; s great. That' ; s actually what, uh, we want to hear more about. So it sounds like, um, I--I guess, were there key factors that you--that you mentioned a little bit, the economics, that--that played a role in the downt--or in the sort of decline in Federation programming. But were there key factors, uh, aside from obviously, the--the Bucks for Brains, and the--the support from the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: And, like, what other, I guess, elements on campus needed to come together to make it possible for--for the--for the Jewish studies program properly-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --but also, I don' ; t know, what--what exists in terms of Jewish life there at University of Louisville for Jewish students? Is there a Hillel, or-- WEISSBACH: Yeah. There is a Hillel, a small Hillel. Um, it' ; s been there all along, but it' ; s always been-- FERNHEIMER: --(coughs) excuse me-- WEISSBACH: --again, because the Jewish student population is so small, that' ; s--that' ; s one of the main factors that keeps the Hillel program very, um, uh, modest. FERNHEIMER: How many students at U of L generally, and how many would you guess are Jewish? WEISSBACH: Um, gee, I--I' ; m always confused about -----------(??)----------. People have asked me that. I would say probably about twenty thousand, something like that, with the professional schools. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Something like that. That probably counts part-time students, too. Uh, and Jewish students, maybe in the range of a couple of hundred, most. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: And so Hillel has never had more than fifteen, twenty, twenty-five active participants. Um, there' ; s a long tradition of--of Louisville Jewish students going away. If they stay in state, they tend to come to UK. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Or at least that' ; s--that' ; s kind of--I don' ; t know that empirically, but that' ; s kind of what I' ; ve heard all--over all the years. Um, if they go out of state, Indiana is one of the places they go. Or, of course, they go to some of the--some of the top East Coast schools as well. But, um, but very few stay in--in Louisville. Um, so in terms of--of Jewish student life, Hillel is a small component, but not a strong presence. The Hillel director, it' ; s always been a kind of low on the list of priorities for one individual at the Federation. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: That' ; s how it' ; s been--that position' ; s been funded. So again, um, the--the real big change is adding some Jewish faculty. Actually, there is a--another--a woman who--Natalie Polzer-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --who was on a term appointment, and just got, uh, tenure. Her term appointment was converted to a tenure track. So now there are two people for whom Jewish studies is their main field. Um, there are a couple of people that do some Jewish literature material. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Uh, there' ; s one sociologist, recently retired, that used to do a, kind of, religious sociology with an emphasis on Judaism. So there' ; s always been some--something--a sampling of Jewish studies courses along--across the disciplines, but never a coherent program until now. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Now, meaning, last two, three years. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. And, oh, did this impact the courses that you were teaching in--in Jewish American history, or Jewish-- WEISSBACH: Uh, no. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: OK. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Uh, other than it was something that--that I think the Jewish studies program was interest--was happy to be able to add to the list of courses available. Uh, in any given year, I never taught more than one of those courses. I tended--tended to use the survey course as a kind of feeder for the next year. I would offer the upper level American Jewish history course, something like that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WEISSBACH: But, uh, but I haven' ; t--I didn' ; t feel--uh, the courses were always well-enrolled, the Jewish studies--the Jewish history courses. So I think the creation of a Jewish studies program didn' ; t have a great impact. Uh, didn' ; t increase enrolment. FERNHEIMER: Oh. I know that you--you' ; ve talked a li--a bit about your graduate work at Harvard, and French history, and in fact, that' ; s how you got the job at University of Louisville. I wonder if you could tell me how and when your research interests began to shift from French child labor laws to, uh--and the work that you did your graduate training in-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --to the research and writing that was eventually published in your book, The Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History in 1995? Pretty shortly after you arrived in Louisville for-- WEISSBACH: Right. Uh, of course, that was the second book. The first book was a book based on my doctoral dissertation on child labor. FERNHEIMER: Right. WEISSBACH: But the transition went something like this. I' ; d always been interested in Jewish history. I was interested in labor issues and in children. So at one point, because of some of the literature I was coming across in the work on child labor, I decided to do a study of Jewish apprenticeship programs in France. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: I thought maybe a book, but it didn' ; t turn out to be a book, but it turned out to be an article of which I' ; m very proud. And it was my first published Jewish history piece. Uh, um, I forget what the title of the article was. It appeared in the AJS Review, if I' ; m not mistaken. I should have a copy of my own CV in front of me. (Fernheimer laughs) Uh, I also did another article comparing Jewish apprenticeship programs with general apprenticeship programs sponsored primarily by Catholic institutions or by secular institutions. This is all French history. And in the process of doing that work, I got--I started to realize more and more that, though the story of French Jews is almost always told as a story of Jews in Paris, or maybe one or two other large cities, like Bordeaux, uh, or Alsace, which, uh, again, is--was for--by the end of the nineteenth century, was detached from France. But French history, generally--especially French Jewish history--concentrated on big cities. And I realized through the apprenticeship program, the apprenticeship, uh, article, that there' ; s stuff going on in small towns also. So I thought I would do--I would look at small towns in France. It was at that point that I had small children, and a wife with a career, which made it hard to get to France for long periods of time. So I said, let me do something comparative. I' ; ll do small-town Jews in small towns in France, compared with Jews in small towns in America. One of the things I knew early was that the migration patterns were similar, because in the nineteenth century, Jews were spreading out across France simply because it had been illegal before the French Revolution for Jews to live in most of France. And when the restrictions were removed, Jews started to spread out throughout the country. In America, at about the same time, you had westward migration movements, which meant the creation of new Jewish communities in small towns all over the United States as well. So I thought a comparison might be interesting. When I did that, when I made that decision, I started to look at material on Jews in small towns in America, and realized that there was almost none. That there were some amateur accounts of individual small-town communities, but no systematic, scholarly, uh, project which looked at Jewish life in small-town America. So that became my major topic, which involved me for 20 or 25 years. And that was the third book-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --called Jewish Life in Small-Town America. Along the way, (laughs) um--well, let me say, early in that project, I did a case study, one specific small town, which had fewer than a thousand Jews, and was an interesting town where I could do some local research, and where I had a personal connection through my wife. And that town happened to be Lexington, Kentucky. And it turned out to be an interesting study, really, which showed me that Jewish life in a smaller community like Lexington' ; s, um, was quite different from Jewish life in big cities, or even in midsize cities. Uh, and that' ; s one of the main themes of the book on Jews in small towns, is the way that--the difference, you know, where the dividing line is between even midsize cities and small towns. Since this is video, I should use my hands more. (Fernheimer laughs) Um, along the way, I got--I asked myself the question, where other--what--in what other small towns were there Jewish communities? And that developed into the study of synagogues. I figured if you can find where the synagogues were, you' ; ll know more about the lay of the land in terms of Kentucky. And I got a small grant from the Kentucky Humanities Council to simply find historic synagogues. Where were they? Uh, of course, I wanted to include Louisville in that as well. But it turns out to be--actually, my--my dream was to come up with a visual, uh--a visual image of every synagogue that has ever stood in Kentucky, and came up one short. But just developing the database in the first place was, uh, an interesting challenge. I don' ; t remember the exact numbers off the top of my head. You can book an index to (??)--to the tables in the book, obviously, but there are about 50 buildings that I came up with. Uh, about half of them built as synagogue buildings, and the other half converted from other uses. About half of them still standing, so I could go look at them now. Half of them gone. So I relied on archival materials as well, obviously. And some were really, uh, great revelations. You know, a real a-ha movement that--that any researcher really cherishes. For example, when I realized that there was an image of Kentucky' ; s first synagogue, which burned in 1866, I think, um, there was an image of it, because there was a bird' ; s-eye view map-- FERNHEIMER: --I remember, um-- WEISSBACH: --very popular approach to mapping in the nineteenth century. With intricate detail of every building in it, and I could find the--the synagogue, Kentucky' ; s first synagogue, built in 1849, in that map. So I had an image. Again, it wasn' ; t a perfect representation. I' ; ll show it tomorrow night in my talk. Um, so it was an interesting research project. And in fact, I published the book Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History, which most studies of synagogue architecture take--uh, take a--an art history approach. And I took a social history approach, which was quite different. And also, added a long essay at the end of that book, which, um--which describes those project as a case study, which one could do in other places as well, and learn a lot from just locating the building and seeing what the buildings were like. I, myself, did a project on Detroit synagogues, which was very similar, uh, which was funded by Wayne State University and published as a brochure by them. Um, if I had it to do over, I would have given that book a slightly different title. FERNHEIMER: Yeah? WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: What would that be? WEISSBACH: Um, something like, just to make it clear that it' ; s really a gen--uh, that it' ; s a case study and not just about Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: Uh, something like Synagogue Architecture in Middle America, maybe. The example of Kentucky, or-- FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: So that' ; s a--that' ; s a project I undertook, kind of, while I was working on the Small-Town Jews. And Small-Town Jews was a national study. I developed a database there, um, by looking at the best population figures we have. Of course, pop--Jewish population figures are always hard to come by, because the US government never asked people their religion. FERNHEIMER: Right. WEISSBACH: So census documents, uh, only partly helpful. And--and I use them, I think, creatively, census documents. But fortunately, there were some Jewish institutions that collected statistics as well. And the best figures we have are from 1927 and 1937. So I used the 1927 statistics, and on that basis, I came up with a list of 490 towns that had more than a hundred Jew--or at least a hundred Jews in 1927, but fewer than a thousand. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Which is how I defined the towns I' ; d be interest--interested in. Lexington, at the time, had somewhere--it was one of the larger small towns. It had somewhere around seven or eight hundred Jews in the 1920s. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: And then I looked at what I sometimes call epidemiology. That is, the same way that epidemiologists look for patterns that explain disease, I was looking for patterns that explain what Jewish life was like in small towns, what kind of professions Jews were in, how they organized their religious life, how they even got to these small towns, what brought them to the small towns. And the more individual towns I looked at, the more I could see a pattern, so that I could apply it. And then anybody interested in a specific town could answer the question, is my town typical or atypical? FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: It' ; s interesting--either way, it' ; s interesting, whether your--your community is typical or not, or--or atypical. But now, one has something to--to compare it to. Um-- FERNHEIMER: OK. Sorry. WEISSBACH: Yeah, go ahead. FERNHEIMER: All right. I want to pause a minute to-- WEISSBACH: --uh-huh-- FERNHEIMER: --to--to talk a little bit a--more about specifically the Kentucky case example. Uh, obviously, this is the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Collection. WEISSBACH: Right. Right. FERNHEIMER: And so I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the various Jewish communities that still exist in Kentucky outside of Lexington and Louisville at the time that you began your research. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: And a--also, now, uh, and how they came to be established there, and what happened with them. And I realized that most of this is in your book, and I have read that book. But I--I want for us to have some of this on the record, and sort of, what were some of the surprises that you encountered doing that research? Um-- WEISSBACH: Yeah. Um, I don' ; t think I encountered any great surprises. But it was all interesting to see where these towns were. Some interesting patterns emerged, for example, that so many of the small towns that had Jewish communities were along the Ohio River. And that kind of would be logical if you think about it, but to--to actually see it on a map, to actually, uh--uh, see it on the basis of hard evidence, really tells you something about migration patterns within the state. Um, when I started the work--and this--now, the book is about 20 years old now--um, there were obviously significant communities in Louisville and Lexington, as you said. And there was still a community, a small community in Paducah-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --which maintained its synagogue building. In truth, I haven' ; t kept up carefully with the history of all these small towns, what happened to them. I think there' ; s still a small number of Jews in Paducah that are maintaining the synagogue. It is, um, on the circuit of the Southern Illinois Jewish Federation which serves a number of small towns in Southern Illinois, and includes Paducah. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Which I didn' ; t really know when I was doing the research, but, uh, I was invited to a program for them. Their office is in St. Louis, actually. And they--you know, they have kind of circuit riding professionals that go to these small towns. Uh, and I did a program for them at one point, and realized that Paducah was included in their orbit. Uh, Owensboro has a fascinating building, and perhaps my favorite historic synagogue in--in Kentucky. Which again, is being maintained because, if I' ; m not mistaken, there' ; s a--there' ; s a--an endowment that keeps it functioning. Although its long-term future still is a question. It was a question twenty years ago. The number of Jews in Owensboro is probably a dozen or fewer. Um, and there' ; s not a--that I' ; m aware of, not an ongoing program of services or education or cultural programs or anything in Owensboro. And the long-term future of that building, I think, is in doubt. Uh, at one point, I heard that there was some discussion of looking for a Louisville institution to take over stewardship, but I don' ; t think anything came of that. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: So that' ; s still a question that' ; s up in the air. Henderson, uh, working my way across--along the Ohio. Henderson has a building still standing, but no Jewish population to speak of at all. Um, then Louisville, and then as you move farther east, Newport and Covington, which in some ways--and this was actually an interesting case study for me in--in looking at Jewish history of small towns--which in some ways is part of the Greater Cincinnati Area. And you have to understand it that way today, in the twenty-first century. And even in the late twentieth century, I think you' ; d have to understand it that way. But in the 1920s and in the 1930s and earlier, these communities had their own--they could literally see Cincinnati across the river, but they had their own identities. They had their own institutions, their own synagogues, their own kosher butchers. That was true in the--in the region of many large cities. Uh, I know that' ; s the case, for example, in Pittsburg, where if you go five or ten miles out of Pittsburgh, you find a small town with a small Jewish community, and they might as well be a hundred miles from Pittsburgh. Even in--in Northern New Jersey, where you can see Manhattan across the river, until, um--until there were new bridges, and you had to go by ferry, those communities were quite isolated. And again, they had their own institutions, their own core families. So--so Newport and Covington, not only did they historically see themselves as separate from Cincinnati, up until World War II, at least, but they saw themselves as separate from each other, even though they are adjacent towns in Northern Kentucky. Um, they each had their own congregation, and kind of their own key families, and so forth. Uh, then Ashland, Kentucky, which was an interesting case study also, because as small as the population was, I think it' ; s--at its peak, it had something like a hundred and fifty or two hundred Jewish residents. And there were two congregations maintained there, because-- FERNHEIMER: --oh-- WEISSBACH: --the original congregation became Reform, and the small number of families that maintained an Orthodox perspective started their own congregation, built their own little building. So I guess that' ; s one of the surprising things, you might say. I use Ashland as an example. There are a few other examples like that, too, where at their peak, the co--the community has no more than about a hundred and fifty, two hundred Jews. And yet two congregations are maintained. Uh, on the other hand--again, this is one of the interesting things about studying small towns. The more common situation is, you have Orthodox Jews and Reform Jews, East European Jews, German Jews, in these small towns, and they' ; re forced to cooperate in ways that they don' ; t cooperate in larger cities. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: Even in midsize cities. Those elements in the community can' ; t, from a practical point of view, can' ; t possibly maintain their own congregation, and so forth. So, uh, so they cooperate with each other. And so I think that kind of cross, subcultural, uh, uh, cooperation is--is unique to small towns. What else can I tell you about, uh--uh, the only kind of inland community, besides Lexington' ; s, is, uh, Hopkinsville. And I don' ; t know much about that. Um, uh, important to me only because there was a small synagogue building, which, uh, collapsed under heavy snowfall, if I remember correctly. A roof collapsed, and their community couldn' ; t maintain the building. FERNHEIMER: Is there any threads that you want to share that kind of drew these different Jewish communities into Kentucky, or that landed the--uh, I' ; m not phrasing that question very well at all. Um-- WEISSBACH: Yeah. I don' ; t think there was any specific appeal f--uh, of Kentucky as such, as much as I like the state and feel myself a Kentuckian after thirty-seven years. FERNHEIMER: Lyle Lovett would be proud. WEISSBACH: Uh, and--yeah. Um, I don' ; t think that Kentucky held out any special interest for Jews, Jewish migrants. I think that--that what Jew--drew Jews to small towns, or to big cities, was primarily economic, uh, opportunity. Uh, these small towns are basically--the small towns are towns made up primarily of mainstream--ma--Main Street merchants and their families, people that clerks and bookkeepers and so forth that worked in these small retail establishments. Uh, in--in Louisville, there was also something of a Jewish working class. There were--there was a--a, uh--uh, there were the needle trades, and there was, I think, some also, uh, tobacco that involves some Jews. But again, now we' ; re getting into what' ; s typical of--of midsize and large Jewish communities, and where manufacturing involves Jews a lot. But, uh, even Lexington, even though it was, again, on the larger side, was primarily a community of merchants. Uh, and to find somebody that was actually a wage-earning laborer, or--or even a professional, historically. Now, of course, today, if you look at small-town Jews, they' ; re primarily professionals, doctors, lawyers, accountants, and so forth. Um, managers, in business. But, uh--but historically, uh, it' ; s been that retail niche that Jews have filled. And I don' ; t think there' ; s anything particularly attractive about Lexington, except that it' ; s, of course, convenient to get there early on, even in the nineteenth century, coming from Pittsburgh, coming from Cincinnati. Uh, there' ; s a natural route of transportation. So when looking for a--uh, a place where there was economic opportunity might well land in a--in an Ohio River town in Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Is there, uh, any particular story--you' ; ve shared a few already that are particularly interesting, that you uncovered, that--that you think are representative of kind of national trends-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --of small-town Jews, or s--this merchant class that you' ; re discussing? WEISSBACH: Yeah. Uh, trying to think, uh, you' ; re right to intuit that--that when I talk about these--these small towns, I try to find interesting anecdotes to--to go with the descriptions. Trying to think if I' ; ve--if I--uh, if there' ; s any specific one from--from Louisville. Actually, uh, the story of Yud Yud Schwartz, the poet, who lived here in Lexington for some time, and wrote a long epic poem in Yiddish about Jewish life in Kentucky, which is fictionalized, really. I mean, there are--others have looked at the details of that poem and--and seen that it' ; s--some of it' ; s invented. But it still gives you a sense of that. Uh, I use that example sometimes, if the large--in terms of the larger picture, to point out that there are pockets of high Jewish culture, even in some of these small towns. So that' ; s an example. Uh, also, it' ; s an example of how Yiddish culture survives in small towns. Uh, if only for a generation. The immigrant generation itself still lives primarily in Yiddish. Uh, I--there was a--published about 20 years ago, a special edition of the newspaper in Ashland on religion in Ashland. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: And there was a large spread about the Jews of Ashland, and it begins with this--with this, uh, word picture, which says, you know, I' ; m--I forget what the main shopping street is--and it says, you know, " ; On the main shopping street in Ashland, you can hear as much Yiddish as English." ; And you don' ; t think of that for Ashland, Kentucky. But, um, so--so when I talk about the survival of Yiddish, at least for a generation, when I talk about a high culture and--and the survival of that, some Jewish culture, uh, another example I use is--is a tombstone I came across in Colorado Springs, Colorado, uh, where the--the person buried is described as a Yiddish and Hebrew poet, and there' ; s a lengthy Hebrew poem inscribed on the tombstone. You don' ; t think of Colorado Springs, Colorado as a center of great Jewish culture in--in America. So those--those are kind of little surprises you sometimes find that, um--that enlighten, that--uh, enliven the story of small-town Jews. FERNHEIMER: Um, are there perhaps one or two essays--of course, yours (laughs)--that you might point folks to, uh, to better understand a more complete history of Jews in Kentucky? I know that--that there' ; s quite an extensive bibliography in the synagogue book, and I have, um, ventured into the small-town book just yet-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --but I imagine that it--there are-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --wonderful resources there, too. WEISSBACH: Well, for Louisville, there is, uh, a kind of coffee table book which was done by a first-rate historian, Carly Ely-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --who is now the director of the, uh, Locust Grove Historic Home in Louisville, who has a PhD in history from Brandeis, University, if I' ; m not mistaken. Quite sure of that. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell her last name? WEISSBACH: E-l-y. FERNHEIMER: E-l-y. WEISSBACH: Carol Ely. FERNHEIMER: And what is the coffee book called? WEISSBACH: Uh, it' ; s called, um, Jewish Louisville: Portrait of a Community. FERNHEIMER: Oh, yes. I have this book. (laughs) WEISSBACH: OK. So that--for Louisville, that' ; s--uh, that' ; s an important contribution. Again, sponsored by the Federation. Uh, quite well done, although not based on a great deal of deep research. I think that, uh, the Federation forced Carol to--to adopt a pretty tight timeline to get the book done. And, uh, it depends heavily on secondary sources, although many of them are obscure--obscure, also. Um, but that' ; s an important book, in addition, and an important addition to Kentucky--the bibliography of Kentucky Jewish history. Um, and it--and again, it--it tries to tell the whole story, and not just of synagogue buildings, as my book has. But I have published other, uh--other accounts that are, again, primarily interested in small towns. There' ; s an early article of mine, which actually won a prize as the best article in local history in the Journal of American Jewish History in the year it was published. Uh, which looks at mobility and stability in small towns, and it uses three Kentucky examples: Lexington, Paducah, and Owensboro. Those--yeah, so those are the three, because Owensboro, again, once had a substantial community of 300 or so Jews. And there, by looking at things like Synagogue membership lists, and B' ; nai B' ; rith membership lists, and some census material and so forth, um, I--I tried to point out that there are two sides to the coin that often, our images, these small towns have some key families, and that' ; s who' ; s there. You know, if you mention a small town, people will say right away--especially, you know, people that are--that know local history superficially, you might say, uh, I knew this Jew from Hopkinsville. And they' ; ll say, oh yeah, that' ; s the Levy family and the Cohen family. All right? And--and in many cases, there are these key families that have been there for several generations that are prominent. But just as important, and often missed, is that there' ; s a cycling of other Jewish individuals through these communities, who arrive, either don' ; t make it, or don' ; t like it, and move on. And there' ; s always--as we were talking about before, there' ; s always economic attraction for small times. Uh, so new families might move in, uh, especially if they know somebody who' ; s already there. So i--both a story of stability with some key families, and mobility, where you' ; ve got a constant--and of course, when people come in from other places they bring the culture of those other places. They' ; re often coming from big cities, so they bring big city culture into small towns. And the ones who move out of small towns, perhaps they' ; re born there and then move on, have this small-town experience in their background, which remains important in their lives throughout. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. That' ; s part of what we hope to capture in some of these interviews-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --as we--we, uh, are bringing a variety of different folks in from across the Commonwealth. WEISSBACH: Mm. FERNHEIMER: Um, and it' ; s interesting that you mention how those experiences that--that shape them, growing up in these small towns are, you know, I think sometimes that the rest of the United States thinks that Kentucky is one giant small town. WEISSBACH: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: Um, but, uh, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about--uh, you' ; ve mentioned some of this, you know, stability, and--and in--and mobility, but if there are some other key components to the narratives that shape the way that Kentucky Jews either think about themselves, or that others think about the narrative of-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --of Kentucky Jews, if we could even call it that-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --that thing. Because I know that there are these, even here in Lexington, there' ; s the--the families that have been there. And there--there' ; s Tugen Hyman and Little Hyman and Pat Hyman. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And they' ; re all three branches of the same Hyman family. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, but then there' ; s also, you know, the university, and there was IBM, and there are these, uh, local things that attract people who come in and out. And so-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --perhaps that--that whole-- WEISSBACH: --yeah. Well, look, that--that--one of the things that does is explain what happens--why some of these small-town communities die out completely, and some remain somewhat stable in terms of remaining small-town communities. And some grow. And Lexington is a good example of a community that actually grew, that up until World War II had never got to a thousand Jews. But after the war, by the sixties, seventies, eighties, because of the university, because of IBM, because it was an important regional center, um, it grew--uh, I' ; ve seen various figures. What' ; s--what' ; s the figure you give when people say how many Jews are in Lexington? FERNHEIMER: I think when we' ; re--when I' ; m in recruiting mode, I think it' ; s twenty-five hundred or three thousand. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: I--I usually go to the Institute for Southern Jewish Life and look up what they' ; re reporting. WEISSBACH: Right. Well, that' ; s about what I say too, now. But that' ; s quite different from the 800 that we' ; re--that may have constituted a small-town community before World War II. So--but there are only about--of my 490 towns, only about ten percent, only about fifty of them grew into something more substantial. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Um, about half of them disappeared, either because all the Jews left, like in Henderson, let' ; s say. Or because they got swallowed up into metropolitan areas. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: You can no longer think of Covington, Kentucky' ; s community, or the Jews of Covington, as part of the Covington Jewish Community. First of all, there' ; s no Covington Jewish institutions per se, all right? And also, just like everybody else that' ; s in Northern Kentucky, they' ; re part of the Cincinnati Metropolitan Area, all right? Commuting is easy, everybody has a car, most families have--many families have two cars, right? Where, in the twenties and thirties, it was unusual to have a car, and there were certainly no interstate highways, and no computers that could connect you immediately with--with, uh, institutions in the nearby big cities. So in that way, it' ; s been typical. Um, I published another piece, I think it' ; s the one where I--where I introduce it with the story of my wife and her move to Kentucky, uh, that looks at Kentucky' ; s Jewish history as a microcosm of national Jewish history, because Louisville is a large enough city with a large enough Jewish population that in some ways mirrors what' ; s going on in other midsize and even large Jewish cities, Jewish communities. So it has that example, uh, with multiple congregations, with something of a Jewish working class as well as a Jewish middle class historically. And, uh--and that' ; s comparable to other medium and big-size cities. But it also has this whole array of small-town Jewish communities, which makes it a good example of--of national trends. And the whole--the whole, kind of, standard, uh, discussion of the German Jews coming first, broadly speaking, and then East European Jews coming later. That narrative, which has to be fine-tuned, but it' ; s basically true, can be witnessed in--in Kentucky as a--as a state. Um, so in that sense, Kentucky can be used as a--as a case study. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. You' ; ve sort of anticipated my question, which is based, of course, on your research, but it' ; s how the story of Kentucky Jews corroborates, undermines, or extends the story of the American Jewish experience. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Uh, I think it fits quite nicely. Now, the American Jewish experience itself is much more complex than something we can talk about in a--in a brief interview like this. Um, and one might even say the American Jewish experience is, right? But in--in terms of broad strokes, what we usually teach in survey courses and so forth, Kentucky pretty much fits that--that pattern. Um, when you get into, uh, oh, discussions of the Civil War, which have been held in a--you know, have been taking place because of the hundred and fiftieth anniversary in recent years. FERNHEIMER: The sesquicentennial. WEISSBACH: Sesquicentennial. Um, you know, Kentucky in--in a way, fits the pattern of other border states. And the Jewish community reflects some of that as well. You had Jewish Confederates in Kentucky, and--although most of the Jewish population was in Louisville and was more loyal to the Union, we have examples of Jewish Confederates in Kentucky, too. So there' ; s another case where not only do we have, um--and of course, nationally, also, there were some Jews who identified with the Union, and some who identified with the South, especially in southern cities. Uh, so there' ; s an example of not only Kentucky' ; s Jewish history paralleling what' ; s going on in the country as a whole, where you have disagreements between pro--pro-Southerners and pro-Northerners, uh, but it also parallels American history more generally. Um, so yeah, I mean, it--it would be interesting for Kentuckians, and especially for Kentucky Jews, if there was something really unusual about the Jewish population here or the Jewish experience at Kentucky. But, um--but I--there' ; s nothing that I would point to. Maybe if I thought about it after this interview on my way home, I could-- FERNHEIMER: --(laughs) you' ; re welcome to send us some follow-up-- WEISSBACH: --yeah. (laughs) But, uh--but nothing jumps out as something--as something I would talk about in that respect. FERNHEIMER: Wow. A couple of sort of, uh, one-off questions. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Did you encounter any--I--I know that there was the influence on the architecture of that one very unusual synagogue, but did you encounter a--a lot of Sephardic Jews, or any Sephardic Jews in the research that you did in Kentucky? WEISSBACH: Trying to think if I ever came across one Sephardic Jew? FERNHEIMER: Uh-- WEISSBACH: Um, in--in modern times, late twentieth century, I mean, there are a few Jews of Sephardic background in Louisville that I knew. But historically, uh, I' ; m not aware of any. Even the congregation in Louisville that' ; s called Anshei Sfard, which means " ; Children of Spain," ; right, you might think is Sephardic. It isn' ; t really, it' ; s just because there are certain conventions of Sephardic Jews that Hasidic Jews picked up. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: So there are congregations all over the country with, uh, Sfar--with " ; Sfard" ; in their name, that have nothing to do with Sephardic Jews, but rather with some ritual and liturgical conventions of--uh, of some Orthodox groups. So, um, there are certain centers in the United States that have attracted Sephardic Jews over time. But I--I' ; m not aware of any migration of any group, even a small group--again, not impossible that one could find an individual here and there. I didn' ; t come ac--I--nothing jumps out. But certainly, no--no groups of Jews as such. The only small-town--I didn' ; t find in any town, actually, that I studied, a whole community of Sephardic Jews. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: The closest I came was Montgomery, Alabama, which does have a Sephardic Jewish community. But Montgomery had something like two or three thousand Jews in the 1920s, which put it outside the range of the small communities I was studying. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. Yeah, our president, uh, of the university comes from a Sephardic community in Alabama, uh, that hails from Rhodes. WEISSBACH: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: Uh, so that' ; s a currently local connection. WEISSBACH: Yes. FERNHEIMER: But--but I was very curious about that, because-- WEISSBACH: Hmm. Well, there is a Kentucky Sephardic Jew. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Right. Our f--our very first. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, and I guess, uh, I--I know this wasn' ; t the subject of your specific research, but it is an area that we' ; re very interested in, which is, um, if you know anything about the involvement of--of Jewish, uh, individuals or groups in the--the bourbon industry here. I know that certainly in Paducah, that was very, uh--Bernheim was historically a very important figure, and the Shapiras with Heaven Hill currently. Um, but I wonder-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --if you encountered that along the way around the edges of some of the synagogue research you did. WEISSBACH: Um, n--no, not in--not in connection with the synagogue research. In terms of the small town connections, uh, occasionally, um, Bernheim actually wrote a little study of c--of Paducah Jews. So that was very useful to my research. And I guess, even on the history of the synagogue there, but--but mainly on the small-town connection. And also, I just recently published an article on, uh, Kentucky Jews during the Civil War. And there was one Jewish arfi--officer who was promoted by, uh, kind of made famous by, uh, I' ; m--I' ; m trying to think if that' ; s a Bernheim publication or not? I' ; ll--I' ; ll hold back on this, because I' ; m not sure of exactly where--where I know this story from. (Fernheimer laughs) But there' ; s a--a--a Jewish Army officer who gets killed in action. Uh, a Union officer who--whose story is published, and I think it' ; s published by Bernheim itself. Um, and of course, in Louisville, there are a number of--of Jewish distilling families. The Shapiras, for example. But I didn' ; t come across them. Again, it--he--Bernheim is an outlier in the sense that he' ; s involved in manufacturing rather than retail sales. And he moves to Louisville pretty quickly after getting established in--in, uh, Paducah. FERNHEIMER: Paducah. WEISSBACH: Um, Marnie Davis, whose is about-- FERNHEIMER: --wonderful-- WEISSBACH: --yes. Um, Marnie actually s--uh--when she did her research at Louisville, had dinner with us a couple of times, and, uh, we got to know each other pretty well at--at that point. So I would refer you to her. FERNHEIMER: We' ; re very grateful she' ; s coming in spring to give us a talk. Yeah. WEISSBACH: Oh, is she? Good. Really nice. FERNHEIMER: Uh, yeah. WEISSBACH: Good. Give her my regards. FERNHEIMER: I--I' ; d be happy to do so. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Although I think I' ; ll see her in about a week and a half-- FERNHEIMER: In Nashville? WEISSBACH: …in Nashville, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, I just wanted to ask that question, because we--we' ; ve got a small subset that we' ; re working on-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --at the interview collection. It' ; s also a personal research interest. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um, it seems that, obviously, moving to Kentucky in this--this project, you started with the--the small-town life became something that really shifted the--the trajectory of your career-- WEISSBACH: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --from the book on Detroit' ; s synagogues, and the patterns of American Jewish life to Jewish life in small-town America, and then finally the edited and annotated version of your grandfather' ; s memoir. Um, I wonder, can you talk a little bit about, you know, was it the sh--the move to Kentucky? Was it the--the--the part of life you were in, uh, navigating small children and a working wife? And, uh-- WEISSBACH: Yeah. I think part of the--part of the reason for the shift from France to America was really practical. Um, but--but I' ; d always had this interest in, specifically, for the synagogue architecture book. If you had asked me in high school what I was going to be when I grew up, I probably would have said an architect. And one of the reasons I sh--I switched to history when I was in college, I didn' ; t--I mean, I never studied architecture, but I decided on history as a major, is because I realized that everything has a history. And in fact, I got to my senior year in college without enough credits in any given field to graduate. (Fernheimer laughs) So I said, what' ; s going on here? Why do I have some credits in music and some credits in literature and some credits in political science and some credits in history, but I don' ; t have enough in any field? And I said, it' ; s because I' ; m interested in so many different things, and they all have a history. So I, kind of, scrambled and took a bunch of history courses, uh, end of my senior year, enough to graduate. But there' ; s the interest in architecture going way back. And--and it fulfilled itself by doing a book where I studied architecture. Uh, I haven' ; t completely lost interest in the French material. And in fact, um, I did a--a piece a while back, I don' ; t remember the title of it off the top of my head, where I did compare small-town Jews in America and in France. Again, never turned into a major project or a book project, but I did talk about that. That was in the journal Shofar, published, I think. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: Um-- FERNHEIMER: Given what you know about relatively recent Kentucky Jewish history-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --if you had to identify ten people (Weissbach laughs) either in Louisville or in the broader Commonwealth, that would be absolutely necessary to interview, who would they be, for you? Um, and I realize that you did this research twenty years ago-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --and some of these people may or may not still be with us, or still be in Kentucky. WEISSBACH: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, but, uh, just in terms of thinking about a representative picture of the Commonwealth' ; s Jewish history? WEISSBACH: No answer. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: No answer. OK. WEISSBACH: I really--it' ; s--it' ; s just--it' ; s too hard a question. Especially, you know, ten people, because then you start saying--especially since you' ; ve tagged on the idea to get a representative, so-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, I know-- WEISSBACH: --so, you know? So you' ; d want--you' ; d want people to represent different niches in society, and you want somebody who' ; s important in the business world. You' ; d want somebody who' ; s important in the cultural world. You' ; d want--you' ; d want a specific Jewish leader, like a rabbi. Uh, and you can think, perhaps, of s--of longtime rabbis that might be interesting to--to interview. Um, trying to think who the longest serving rabbis in--in Louisville, for example, are. Um, and again, it' ; s hard because it' ; s so close. Uh, you know, one of the great figures who had a national presence as well as a local presence was Simcha Kling, a Conservative rabbi in Louisville. He' ; s--he' ; s been dead for quite a while now, but that' ; s the kind of person I was--I was thinking of. I think some of the important Reform rabbis are gone too, so--and it would be hard for me to say which of the contemporary rabbis would be a good example of a rabbinic leader and that you really should interview. And ideally, all the rabbis who' ; ve served here for maybe a decade or more in this--in the Commonwealth should be interviewed. So again, business leaders, cultural leaders, religious leaders, institutional leaders, uh, people involved in Federation work, for example. And there a number of--and again, I--I can' ; t pick out the exact name. Political leaders along the way. Um, um, we haven' ; t had a lot. Uh, Jerry Abramson comes to mind. I said I wouldn' ; t mention any names, but there' ; s an example. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WEISSBACH: Uh, Morris Weintraub would be an interesting one. He' ; s been dead for about forty years now, (laughs) but he was Speaker of the House. Uh, and somebody who I actually knew as a youngster because he was in--uh, growing up in Cincinnati, my parents knew him. And, uh--and he was a Northern Kentucky political leader, and served in the Kentucky house. Uh, so he' ; s somebody who--eh, who was, uh, I--and I' ; m not certain of this, but I think he may have been the first Jewish elected, uh, Kentucky state representative, or senator. Not sure of that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, there were some mayors earlier, but-- WEISSBACH: Yeah, mayors. Mayors, uh, the--there' ; s a disproportionate representation of Jewish mayors in small towns. That' ; s an interesting phenomenon, too. FERNHEIMER: Why is that? WEISSBACH: I think because, first of all, they see it as good for business to be politically active. And because they have a lot of visibility as Main Street merchants. You know, if everybody buys their clothes from the same Mr. Goldberg, or their shoes from Mr. Cohen, you know, when he decides to run for office, it' ; ll be a familiar--name recognition in politics is always very important. I think that' ; s part of it. Part of it is, uh, not to make it too mercenary, right, part of it is civicmindedness. They want to improve their talents. But I think part of it is, it' ; s good for business if they' ; re seen as public spirited. Uh, and it gets them elected, because they' ; re known to such a large part of the population. So--so I--I go back to my basic answer. I can' ; t give you a list of ten. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Any others, though, that stand out besides Abramson that might be worth thinking about? Cer--certainly in the smaller towns where you had a bit more-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --experience than some. WEISSBACH: Right. Um, I' ; m not in touch or aware of anybody in--in Paducah. Owensboro really has nobody now. Newport and Covington don' ; t have a Jewish life that I' ; m aware of. Uh, and maybe there' ; s some former Newport Covington families in Cincinnati now, but again, I' ; m not in touch with. Um, there' ; s the Ashland family, the key Ashland family, was the Ma--Mansbach family. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? WEISSBACH: M-a-n-s-b-a-c-h. And the daughter of that family is very prominent in the Louisville Jewish community now. And in fact, there' ; s a lectureship named for her in women' ; s studies. I' ; m blocking on her name. But if we Google " ; Women' ; s studies, University of Louisville" ; -- FERNHEIMER: --we can turn her up-- WEISSBACH: --yes. So she probably could talk about Ashland' ; s Jewish community, and her father' ; s role in it. And it was a fairly large family. I think--again, I think he was a merchant, but was most responsible for building a small Orthodox synagogue. It' ; s--and serve that community. FERNHEIMER: Say that-- WEISSBACH: Auerbach. FERNHEIMER: Auerbach? WEISSBACH: Yes, is her name. A-u-e-r. Ashland. Hopkinsville, I don' ; t know anybody. Lexington, you probably know better than I. Um-- FERNHEIMER: Louisville is actually surprisingly challenging, given how many-- WEISSBACH: --yeah, well, maybe because it' ; s too big. Because if you wanted to pick out one family that was important, say, in the professions, or in the--or in the, um, the business world, or cultural life, it would be hard without offending a lot of people. Or even just, you know, who would be the best person? I--I can' ; t tell you. Um, and I think a lot of the old families are represented by people in the Reform community. Since we' ; re involved in the more traditional community, I don' ; t even know a lot of those people who might come from prominent families. It' ; s--it' ; s just big enough that you don' ; t know everybody, yeah? Uh, I think even with two or three thousand Jews in Lexington, even--and even though you haven' ; t been here all that long, you probably have a pretty good handle on who some of the older, more prominent families are. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m beginning--finally beginning to get a little bit less green. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, but, uh, it' ; s interesting that you start talking about your own, uh, personal involvement in the community. And actually, that' ; s sort of where I' ; d like to go next. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um, not--we' ; ve talked about your professional commitments and your research trajectory. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about the way Kentucky influenced your personal and Jewish community life, and what it was like raising two adopted children in Louisville-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --during the time that your kids were growing up? WEISSBACH: Yeah. Uh, the answer is Kentucky had very little influence on it. in fact, one of the things we realized early on is that, um, there was a--I' ; ll say--I' ; ll use the word " ; danger." ; It was a danger that if we relied on Kentucky Jewish life to define our Jewish life, it might be a little too provincial. Because after all, we are a little bit out of the way. Even though Louisville and Lexington are substantial communities, it' ; s not a New York or a Philadelphia or a Washington, or Boston, which is of course the community we know best. Uh, and that it was important for us to keep larger connections. So we' ; ve been involved in--in, uh--first of all, we' ; ve maintained a lot of friendships in--in various places around the country. Uh, especially friendships that developed in our Boston days, when we were involved in the early stages of the chavurah movement-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-- WEISSBACH: --uh, informal fellowships that have prayer services and study sessions in people' ; s own homes and so forth. Uh, that was a--that was a development of the 1970s, primarily. Kind of counterculture. I said I' ; d use air quotes, but counter--Jewish counterculture development, uh, that we were involved those, and we' ; ve maintained those connections. Uh, with children specifically, we realized also that it was important for them to have connections beyond Kentucky if they were going to grow up with--to be kids with a--a Jewish identity and with a wider perspective. And of course, with that, also goes a larger perspective in general. So our kids went, uh, for many years to Camp Ramah in Wisconsin, and maintained that connection. Our son, especially, was very involved in the United Synagogue Youth Movement. Uh, he' ; s very connected with Jewish Life, obviously, in his work life now, too. Our daughter, less so. But I think that the--the Camp Ramah experience was formative for her. And so she has maintained, uh, an element of a Jewish identity. Again, not as--not as strongly as our son, but, uh, uh, congregational life has been important to us. Again, it' ; s a kind of anchor. FERNHEIMER: Which congregation are you members of? WEISSBACH: We' ; ve been members--over the years, over 37 years, we' ; ve managed to quit the two Conservative congregations. Twice. (laughs) So initially, we were members of Adath Jeshurun, then we moved to Keneseth Israel, which at the time, was not a Conservative congregation. It called itself " ; traditional." ; Then we moved back to Adath Jeshurun, uh, and now, for the last ten years or so, we' ; ve been members of Keneseth Israel again. So it depended on what fit our needs at a given point. One of the reasons--one--one of the shifts back was that when our kids were school age and going to camp, there were more young families of that--in that cohort at Adath Jeshurun. So even though we' ; ve been members of Keneseth Israel and moved over to AJ, as it' ; s called, um, because the kids, for example, who went to Camp Ramah, tended to be there. But, um, when--when Keneseth Israel became Conservative and egalitarian, that was an attraction to move back to Keneseth Israel, also. So kind of our ideal is a kind of, um, very traditional religious practice and liturgy. But egalitarian in approach, in terms of women' ; s participation, which we had in Boston early on, which you can find fairly easily in big cities, but that' ; s rarer here. So for example, Adath Jeshurun, which we joined initially, was egalitarian, which was an attraction for us, but not as traditional as we liked. Uh, so that took us over to Keneseth Israel after a while. So that' ; s one sign that Louisville is a big enough city to live a rich Jewish life in, because you can quit a synagogue and there' ; s another one that fills the need. FERNHEIMER: Right. WEISSBACH: And that was even--you know, and that' ; s only two of the congregations. FERNHEIMER: And what were--were you involved, um, in any kind of leadership roles? Or was your wife involved? WEISSBACH: Uh, we--we-- FERNHEIMER: Or obviously, you talked about your children, and certainly, your son has become very involved. WEISSBACH: Right. Well, we' ; ve both been on s--on the synagogue boards along the way. Uh, I haven' ; t been deeply involved in Federation work, but I' ; ve been on some Federation committees along the way. Uh, I' ; ve sometimes been called on for individual programs, like to introduce a speaker or to--to consult on who might be invited by a congregation or by the Federation. Um, so I would say, uh, neither of us has held highly visible positions. My wife actually, uh, in recent Jewish history--recently Louisville Jewish history--this was a kind of significant milestone. There was a study, uh, considering the merger of the two Conservative congregations. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. WEISSBACH: And my wife was the co-chair of that. There was--she represented s--there was one co-chair form Keneseth Israel and one from Adath Jeshurun. Uh, so she was the co-chair from Keneseth Israel. And that--that, uh, the decision was made not to merge. But that was an--an interesting and important, kind of, step. I think that probably will come, that merger will come in the future, but the congregations weren' ; t ready for it yet. FERNHEIMER: What pre--precipitated the move to discuss merging in the first place? WEISSBACH: Uh, the fact that both congregations have aging populations, attendance is down in both congregations, um, both of them are maintaining big buildings. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Um, but in fact, one of the things that got in the way was the fact that each group said, " ; If we merge, we have to use our building." ; (laughs) And Adath Jeshurun, in terms of my interest in synagogue architecture, has actually done a major multimillion dollar renovation of their building. FERNHEIMER: Wow. WEISSBACH: On the other hand, the most--the most, uh, prominent artistic feature of any Kentucky synagogue are the glass windows--faceted glass windows at Keneseth Israel. So to give up that building as a Jewish institution would be a real shame. So that' ; s one of the--one of the things that caused a breakdown. FERNHEIMER: Mm. OK. WEISSBACH: Also, a question of, uh, what the rabbinic leadership would look like. Uh, so as I said, I think it will happen eventually for financial reasons. But not in the immediate future. FERNHEIMER: What would you say would be some of the most significant things that have changed in the Louisville Jewish Community in the time that you' ; ve been living in Louisville and raising your family? WEISSBACH: Well, the disappearance of the last kosher butcher. Actually, there were--when we moved to Louisville, just before we moved the phone book still had three kosher butchers in it. By the time we got there, about a year later, there' ; s only one still functioning. And, uh--and that-- FERNHEIMER: Who is that? WEISSBACH: That was, uh, Crichton. FERNHEIMER: And where was he located? WEISSBACH: It was called, uh, in the Strathmore neighborhood, it' ; s in the Highlands. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. WEISSBACH: Highlands is the-- FERNHEIMER: --faculty neighborhood, is from what I know of it. WEISSBACH: That' ; s--that' ; s interesting. I' ; ll tell you a little anecdote. In 1978, when I got the offer at Louisville, we had to decide where we' ; d look for a house. So I, being a social scientist, took a map of Louisville, and I took a Louisville phonebook, and I plotted on the map where every member of the history department lived. FERNHEIMER: Wow. This was before geo--Google Maps. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Before Google Maps. And I had to do it by hand. And I also plotted where the synagogues were, and I plotted where all the Levines lived. I picked one distinctive Jewish name. There were about twelve or fourteen Levines in the phone book, and I plotted them. And lo and behold, more than half of the Levines, and more than half of the history professors, lived in the Highlands. (Fernheimer laughs) So there was no question where we were going to live. And also, the--uh, all three traditional synagogues were in that--were in that neighborhood. So the--the two Reform temples were further out a little. Uh, so yes, so the butcher was in the Highlands. And of course, the Jewish Community Center is--it' ; s in the Highlands, too, although kind of at the edge of the Highlands on the Expressway. Um, so the--the last kosher butcher clo--has closed. There is kosher meat available through--there is a vaad kashrut, uh, and they' ; ve had an arrangement with one of the Kroger stores to have fresh kosher meat, although that' ; s been--had its ups and downs in terms of availability and quality. Trader Joe' ; s has kosher meat, so it' ; s not really a problem. But when you lose the institution of a kosher butcher, where you, you know, run into other members of the Jewish community on a Friday afternoon, or--or on a Sunday, getting corned beef or something, that' ; s gone. Day school, got an even bigger problem. Day school closed. Our kids went through fifth grade, and then from middle school shi--shifted to public school. And a few years later, they were already combining middle school grades, because there weren' ; t that many kids going. Then the--the enrollment kept dropping, and the problem of finding qualified teachers, really trained Jewish educators, are not usually attracted to smaller communities. So I think that combination. Uh, the Chabad has tried to continue to run a little day school, and I think they have a program with about 15 kids in it. Um, there is a group of young parents that are talking about trying to start a--a new day school. But I don' ; t know how f--how far that' ; s going to get. FERNHEIMER: When did the day school close? And when did the last butcher close? Roughly. WEISSBACH: Roughly, yeah. Probably, butcher was there for about 10 years after we came, so I would say it closed in the late eighties, early nineties, maybe. And the day school went until--let' ; s see. Maya would have finished fifth grade around that. Uh, also--also, in the mid-nineties, I would say. And-- FERNHEIMER: And--and what was the name of the day school, again? WEISSBACH: It was called the Eliahu Academy, named for a donor in the early fifties-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- WEISSBACH: --or mid-fifties, uh, who put up what was then a huge sum. What I heard was he put up ten thousand dollars, which is nothing these days. But at the time, uh, he got naming rights. I believe the family name was Spivak. Eliahu Spivak. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: Um, so it became called the Eliahu Academy in Louisville Jewish Day School. FERNHEIMER: Um, those were some pretty significant changes. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um-- WEISSBACH: So again, I--I would say that there' ; s been a--a decline. Not a--not a radical decline, but clearly a decline in terms of Louisville' ; s Jewish institutional life. About five or eight years ago, something like that, the Federation and the Jewish Community Center merged to save costs. The center stopped most of its Jewish programming. They had had somebody that was involved specifically in Jewish programming, and that' ; s disappeared. Membership--uh, again, this is, uh--I don' ; t have official figures, but I' ; ve heard that as much as seventy percent or eighty percent even of the members of the Jewish Community Center now are non-Jews who joined for the facilities, for the racquetball courts and the swimming pool, and so forth. Um, it has a good theater program, but they put on plays--primarily plays with no Jewish content, and most of the people who act in them are not Jewish. Uh, and there' ; s a--a little art gallery, uh, which doesn' ; t necessarily emphasize Jewish themes. So again, it serves as a cultural resource generally, but Jewish content has clearly declined. Uh, there used to be much more programming of a Jewish nature. There is still a Jewish Film Festival-- FERNHEIMER: --oh-- WEISSBACH: --which is part of the--Louisville' ; s--of the--of the JCC' ; s program. FERNHEIMER: And would you say the decline in programming is because there' ; s a decline in interest? Or you had mentioned before the sort of aging population and the declining participation in these two s--uh, cons--I' ; m presuming, sort of Conservative-ish synagogues. Um, and I imagine that that' ; s sort of a--uh, is--or I' ; m asking a question. Is that a microcosm of sort of the larger trends across all the communities? I know you said you' ; re not as familiar with the reform congregations. WEISSBACH: Yeah. Um, well, part of the decline in populations in the Conservative congregations is that some--is that the younger families, if they affiliate, move to the Reform congregations. So I think they haven' ; t suffered as much in terms of declining population. Um, but yeah, I think--I think it' ; s a question of interest. It gets--um, uh, I don' ; t know what the best adjectives to use would be, but, well, I' ; ll give you an example from this week. A very important and very successful and very fascinating Israeli writer, Etgar Keret-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- WEISSBACH: --spoke in Louisville last Friday. And he drew a--a crowd, I would say, of about fifty, sixty people, of whom maybe eight or ten were community members who came to the university. This was a project of the Jewish Studies Program. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WEISSBACH: So there were quite a few students in the writing program, a few students from Jewish Studies, who came. And it was a wonderful program for them. But the fact that so few people from a community of eight or nine thousand to hear this--this great, great writer, really is an indication of--of lack of interest and enthusiasm for Jewish programming. I think that' ; s part of the explanation. Part of it also is financial. Uh, to--to get a--a highly recognized name, uh, we need a lot of money. So, uh, so yeah, I mean, again, I don' ; t want to paint too bleak a picture, because some of the slack is being taken up, in fact, by the university, who' ; s bringing it--Sander Gilman is coming, for example, coming November, I think, next month. So there--there is stuff going on, but in terms of attracting people, that' ; s as much of a problem as actually planning the programs. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m familiar with this, uh-- WEISSBACH: --yeah, sure-- FERNHEIMER: --with this narrative. Um-- WEISSBACH: How many people came to the Gary Zola talk, for example? FERNHEIMER: Uh, we had a pretty--I mean, for us, it was a--a respectable community showing. I think there were some s--uh, probably about 35, 40 people from the community. WEISSBACH: Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: Um, and that was pretty good for us. WEISSBACH: That' ; s certainly respectable. FERNHEIMER: There was a timing issue with the end of Chag and the beginning of the program-- WEISSBACH: --right, right-- FERNHEIMER: --and I think had that been a little bit less murky, we might have had more. But he had a very--we had a very difficult scheduling-- WEISSBACH: --mm-hmm-- FERNHEIMER: --his schedule, our schedule, trying to make things work. WEISSBACH: Right. Right. FERNHEIMER: Um, so, but that--it was not, uh, atypical for us. WEISSBACH: Yeah. There' ; s a kind of myth, also at--at the university that it' ; s hard to get to campus, that parking is a problem and that, uh, you don' ; t want to be in that part of the city late at night. FERNHEIMER: In Louisville? WEISSBACH: In Louisville. But I think that' ; s partly an excuse. And again, it' ; s a real--it' ; s a real issue with some older people, for sure. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I--I wonder, um, can you talk a little bit about--these might seem like kind of strangely personal questions after these large questions about-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --but, um, how--how is your Jewishness different from or similar to that of your parents' ; , and different from or similar to that of your children? WEISSBACH: Wow. FERNHEIMER: You' ; ve--you' ; ve sort of talked about-- WEISSBACH: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --around this in a little bit. WEISSBACH: Um, in terms of my parents, well, my father died fairly young. I was seventeen when he died. And he was-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-- WEISSBACH: --fifty-six. And his approach never changed much. I mean, he was never terribly knowledgeable of Jewish law or Jewish history. But, uh, very interested in Jewish culture and the Hebrew language and so forth. And in that sense, I--uh, I--I' ; ve--I got my involvement in Jewish life from my parents, for sure. Especially from my mother, who came from a much more traditional background, and was involved professionally in Jewish life, Jewish teaching. So I would say it' ; s probably similar in philosophy, and even in practice, to my mother' ; s approach. Um, my children have gone in two different directions. And my son is--again, probably less observant. And not that we' ; re highly observant, but, um, but less observant than we are. I mean, for example, we don' ; t do general shopping on Shabbat, my wife and I. We' ; ll spend money if it' ; s something that' ; s for Shabbat. You know, if--if you' ; re going to the zoo on a Saturday afternoon and you have to pay admission, that wouldn' ; t keep us from going. But to go buy shoes on Saturday afternoon because you need a new pair of shoes is something we would say doesn' ; t fulfill the spirit of Shabbat. Uh, my son, even though Friday night is important, and the kids are in Jewish programs, and so they' ; re raising their kids, very Jewishly involved, uh, obviously, my daughter-in-law is involved as an educator. But--but they do shop on Shabbat. So I would say they' ; re slightly less--less observant. My daughter, uh, has strayed much farther in terms of observance. Uh, unlike--my wife and I keep kosher. Not on the very strictest standards, but we do. And so do our--and so does my son and his wife. But our daughter stopped keeping kosher. She actually has a job which--where she has to work in a store on Shabbat. Uh, now that she' ; s in Louisville, we would love to have her come Friday nights for dinner, and she does occasionally. Of course, she came Rosh Hashanah, for example, and she came for the Seder. But most Friday nights, she' ; s working. So that' ; s--that' ; s, obviously, a much lower level of observance and involvement. Um, still has her eye open for Jewish culture. I think probably hearing news about Israel is more important to her than hearing news about Argentina. But, uh, they' ; re also a little less engaged than either our son or--or us. FERNHEIMER: Mm. WEISSBACH: So you never know. And, uh--uh, I' ; ve sometimes wondered, (laughs) sometimes wondered whether the adoption part of this has anything to do with anything. And I think the answer is no, because you hear these stories with biological children all the time, that--that the two--you know, two children that are very different from each other in many different ways. And it' ; s true, also, in terms of--of our son' ; s interest in practical stuff in Jewish history, in Jewish life, um, and--uh, and our daughter is the artist. You know, lots of families have an artist and somebody else that' ; s more practical. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. I--uh, generational change between families is something that' ; s really interesting. WEISSBACH: You have all this ahead of you to see how--how your-- FERNHEIMER: --(laughs) yeah-- WEISSBACH: --child will end up. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WEISSBACH: How similar to you or how different. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, uh, I wonder, is there anything else that we--that I haven' ; t asked you that you think would be important to share on the record? WEISSBACH: Mm. FERNHEIMER: Either--uh, in any of these areas that we' ; ve sort of loosely covered today? WEISSBACH: Yeah. Well, I must say, I had no idea what direction this--this interview would go in when I agreed to come in and--and be interviewed. I found it interesting. I think we' ; ve had a chance to--to the extent that somebody might be interested in my experience, personally, I think they' ; d have a lot of information available. And more importantly, I think they have a bit of a window into my research on Kentucky, and on American Jewish history generally. Um, I frankly had not really thought about, you know, what' ; s something I want to be sure to fit in while--while we' ; re talking. Uh, and maybe it' ; s because you' ; ve done a good job preparing questions and being an interviewer. But, uh, I don' ; t think there' ; s anything that I want to jump on and say, " ; Oh, here' ; s one more thing." ; You know? FERNHEIMER: Uh, I want to thank you for your openness and--and willingness to come to be interviewed and be part of this project. Like I said at the beginning of the interview, really--if--if there' ; s something of a--of a subfield that' ; s developing on Kentucky Jewish history, um, you know, it' ; s--it' ; s thanks to you, and the pioneering work that you and some other scholars have done in this area. Certainly, um, it' ; s been an honor to hear about how that work really was (laughs) impacted by the very practical nature of life with small children. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Yes. Well, I was very glad to do it. And--and I must say, I sometimes have to pinch myself and say I enjoy doing this kind of work, this kind of research, this kind of writing so much. And I can' ; t believe people pay me to do it. So--so I' ; ve been very fortunate. I think that having made that decision to become a historian, and then at the last minute as I was graduating for college, uh, was--was the right decision. And again, I thank you for the invitation, and for--for the very good job as an interviewer. FERNHEIMER: Oh. Maybe that inspires one last question, which is do you have some advice to give to students who are either involved in oral history work or doing--working--studying at University of Louisville and studying at University of Kentucky, Jewish or not? What--what would be your sort of parting last words (laughs) for-- WEISSBACH: --um-- FERNHEIMER: --for students to think about? WEISSBACH: Yeah. Well use the opportunity. I would say use the opportunity of colle--of a college education to explore as many areas as you' ; re drawn to. Uh, don' ; t worry too much about having a practical skill when you come out. College is about learning generally, what we call in Hebrew torah lishma, learning for the sake of learning. It' ; s about an opportunity to learn how to write well, to communicate well, to think critically. And the individual major doesn' ; t matter that much. Then, as you move on from there, that' ; s when you have to start thinking about what--what kind of career do you actually want? So I would say, you know, if--if--to a student at UK or U of L, if you' ; re interested in Jewish studies, either as a Jewish student or a--or a non-Jewish student. If you' ; re interested in Jewish studies but you' ; re afraid you won' ; t get a job in the field, don' ; t let that stop you, because if you can demonstrate that you' ; ve learned to write, learned to think, learned to read critically, learned how to do research, right? Research skills are important in almost any field that you might want to get into. Uh, go for it. FERNHEIMER: Well, I think that' ; s-- WEISSBACH: --and good luck to you. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s a great place to close the interview. (laughs) WEISSBACH: Good. FERNHEIMER: Um, and, uh, we' ; re very much looking forward to your talk. So thanks for coming in today, Professor Weissbach. WEISSBACH: Thank you. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s been a pleasure. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh433_jk009_weissbach_ohm.xml 2015oh433_jk009_weissbach_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh433_jk009_weissbach_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lee Shai Weissbach, October 20, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Weissbach explains how he was born in pre-state Palestine in 1947. His father was born in Alexandria, Egypt and his mother in Norfolk, Virginia. They met in Tel Aviv, Israel in the 1930s. They immigrated to the United States in 1952 and settled down in Cincinnati, Ohio. His parents opened the Yavneh Day School which was the community Hebrew school of Cincinnati where they both taught Hebrew. Weissbach's wife, Sharon Goller (later Sharon Weissbach) was born in Lexington, Kentucky where her grandfather worked as a kosher butcher. Her family moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she met Lee Shai while they were members of the Habonim youth group. The Habonim youth group was a Labor Zionist Youth Group. Their involvement in the youth group put them together for many years as youth before they began dating just before college.
Weissbach discusses how he was hired at the University of Louisville to fill a French history teaching position. He also began teaching Jewish history courses, and eventually was given a state grant to hire someone in a Jewish Studies full-time position. Weissbach discusses how his research into French Jewish history became very comparative to research into small town Jewish communities in the United States which led to his books "Synagogues of Kentucky: Architecture and History" and "Jewish Life in Small-Town America." Weissbach discusses the impact Kentucky Judaism had on his home family life, which he said was very little.
Identifier
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2015oh433_jk009
Subject
The topic of the resource
Family histories.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Universities and colleges--Research
University of Louisville
Universities and colleges--Faculty.
Judaism.
Jewish families.
Immigrants
Emigration and immigration.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/fe41e6d56118f3682c4ef7f8258bb3de.jpeg
ba58966199e3e30576d98e2bdd1e823a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
J. T. Waldman
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Larry Kass
Interview Keyword
Jewish children
Jewish families.
Childhood
Emigration and immigration.
Family histories.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh432_jk008 Interview with Larry Kass, October 1, 2015 2015oh432_jk008 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jews--Identity. Women in the whiskey industry Bourbon whiskey. Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Alcohol industry. Distilleries--Kentucky Family-owned business enterprises. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish children Jewish families. Childhood Emigration and immigration. Family histories. Larry Kass Janice W. Fernheimer J. T. Waldman 1:|33(5)|45(13)|60(12)|76(1)|114(13)|138(12)|153(5)|174(8)|190(1)|213(3)|231(8)|245(8)|257(9)|277(13)|290(11)|303(11)|320(11)|336(8)|353(8)|368(16)|380(9)|397(1)|418(5)|430(7)|443(1)|454(9)|469(2)|487(14)|500(5)|522(5)|534(5)|557(6)|576(9)|589(9)|602(8)|615(1)|630(2)|642(5)|657(6)|671(4)|685(15)|699(10)|711(10)|723(4)|755(3)|770(6)|782(1)|795(7)|809(5)|823(5)|840(7)|853(1)|872(13)|885(8)|898(1)|927(10)|942(5)|959(2)|973(10)|991(1)|1016(7)|1029(14)|1040(3)|1058(6)|1075(16)|1107(2)|1134(9)|1149(13)|1171(3)|1195(8)|1222(3)|1234(6)|1254(8)|1284(14)|1305(10)|1318(4)|1331(10)|1344(10)|1374(4)|1403(7) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253339281" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 1 Personal and professional background Hello. Uh, my name is Janice Fernheimer. I am the Director of Jewish Studies at the University of Kentucky. Larry Kass introduces himself and talks about his childhood in Connecticut. He describes his career as an advertising and marketing executive in New York before moving to Kentucky to work for Heaven Hill Distillery in 1998. Both his parents died within the past year, and Kass attributes the rituals and traditions of Conservative Judaism with helping him deal with his loss. He also discusses his family history, including his maternal grandfather fleeing the Russian Red Army in 1917, walking from Ukraine to Amsterdam, stowing away on a boat to Montreal, Canada, and eventually migrating to America. Advertising ; Amsterdam ; Attorneys ; Bourbon ; Bronx (New York, N.Y.) ; Connecticut ; Conservative Judaism ; Death ; Detroit (Mich.) ; East European immigrants ; Family life ; Family values ; First generation ; Gerard Cass ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Intermarriage ; Israel ; Kentucky ; Lawrence Peter Berra ; Lawrence Peter Kass ; Liquor ; Liquor stores ; Lithuania ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Marketing ; Montreal ; New York (N.Y.)Nixon Peabody ; Northern Jews ; Ohio ; Old country ; Poverty ; Prep school ; Rabbi Diamond ; Red Army ; Renee Kass ; Roddy Kass ; Scholarships ; Speed Museum ; Taft ; Taft Prep School ; Waterbury (Conn.) ; Yogi Berra Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. 37.939, -86.176 17 Location of Heaven's Hill Distillery in Brandenburg, Kentucky. http://www.pbs.org/redfiles/rao/gallery/old/redarmy.html PBS article about the Russian Red Army. 637 Maintaining a Jewish identity and practicing Judaism in Louisville And how would you describe your parents' or your family’s relationship to Judaism… Kass describes his family’s relationship to Judaism as well as his own personal Jewish identity. He maintains that for his family Judaism was more of a cultural lifestyle than it was a religious one. His parents ensured that he was raised with a strong Jewish identity and he has done the same for his children. Since moving to Louisville, Kass has been an active member in the Louisville Jewish community, including a seven year stint as a member of the Jewish Family and Career Services and as an active member of his Temple. Abby Kass ; Acculturation ; Birmingham (Ala.) ; Boston University ; Bourbon ; Child-rearing ; Community involvement ; Conservative Judaism ; Culture ; Death ; Distilleries ; DuPont Manual High School ; Ellen Horner ; Generational changes ; Halacha (Jewish law) ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Hebrew school ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Interfaith marriage ; Intermarriage ; Israel ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Family Services ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish population ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Kentucky Derby ; Lily Kaas ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Mourning ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Shiva ; Southern Jews ; Youth organizations Childhood ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. 38.225, -85.651 17 Location of the Jewish Family and Career Services at 2821 Klempner Way, Louisville, Kentucky. https://www.jfcslouisville.org/about-jfcs/#timeline History of the Jewish Family and Career Services (JFCS). 1338 History of Heaven Hill Distillery from 1935 J.T. do you want to-- Kass describes the founding of Heaven Hill Distillery in the years following Prohibition and outlines the changes in the bourbon distilling and wholesale distribution industry from being several family-owned, primarily Jewish, operations to fewer consolidated companies. The distilled spirits industry was considered an " ; industry of relationships" ; between families. In particular, because of American liquor distribution laws, Heaven Hill is prohibited from selling their products to anyone but wholesale businesses. As a result, most of the relationships were between distilleries and wholesalers, who were primarily Jewish family businesses. However, that has changed in recent years due to consolidation of businesses. Baker ; Boychik ; Building businesses ; Business ethics ; Business relationships ; Chaplin ; Community ; Consolidation ; Conventions ; Crown Distributing ; Family businesses ; Glazer ; Glazer’s Distributing ; Gold ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish networks ; Levitch ; Liquor businesses ; Max Shapira ; Mergers ; Prohibition ; Relationships ; Small businesses ; Southern Wine and Spirits ; Wholesale ; Yiddish Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Entrepreneurship ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 17 http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/05/the-jewish-origins-of-kentucky-bourbon/392408/ An article from the Atlantic titled " ; The Jewish Origins of Kentucky Bourbon." ; 1896 History of the distilled spirits industry in the United States from the early 1900s Can I ask, I watched an interview, uh, of you recently when you were talking about how, um, you were in one of the warehouses and how the bourbon is different from one row-- Kass shares some of his favorite bourbon lingo and phrases, including " ; single-barrel," ; " ; shiner," ; and " ; mother." ; He also describes the history of the distilling industry starting with the role of rectifiers and the Food and Drug Act and the Taft Act of 1912, and discusses why bourbon has seen an explosion in popularity in recent years, primarily due to the artisanal, local foods movement. He also touches on the role of Jewish families in both the supply and distribution of whiskey and explains how many families did not return to the industry after Prohibition, the Great Depression, and World War I. Artisan ; Bourbon barrels ; Cultural acceptance ; Cultural preservation ; Culture ; Distilling ; Family businesses ; Great Depression ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; History ; Jewish businesses ; Language ; Lingo ; Liquor businesses ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Master distillers ; Mothers ; Peddlers ; Phrases ; Place ; Privatization ; Prohibition ; Pure Food and Drug Act ; Rectifier ; Retail business ; Shiner ; Single-barrel bourbon ; Taft Act of 1912 ; Whiskey ; World War I Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Entrepreneurship ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 https://www.malts.com/en-gb/whisky-guide/the-lingo/ An extensive dictionary of whiskey terms and lingo. 2650 Bourbon’s Jewish heritage Uh, so on, on a personal note what, what, what piqued our interest in, in the topic of the role of Jews in the bourbon industry... Kass goes into detail about the Jewish families who were involved in bourbon production before and after Prohibition and their influences on the industry, although Jewish branding is not overt. In particular he describes how Isaac Bernheim, who created I.W. Harper bourbon whiskey, named it after his lawyer. However, the Jewish Community of Louisville established the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience to tell the story of Heaven Hill Distillery's founder from a culturally and historically Jewish point-of-view. Bourbon Heritage Center ; Cultural preservation ; Culture ; Evan Williams Bourbon Experience ; I. W. Harper ; Isaac Bernheim ; Isaac Wolfe Bernheim ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish history ; Shapira family ; Visitors centers Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky--History. 38.256, -85.759 17 Location of Evan Williams Bourbon Experience at 528 W Main St, Louisville, Kentucky. 3004 Role of women in the bourbon industry And you mentioned--so you've mentioned a lot of interesting things. Kass talks about myths of the distilling industry and how women were involved in the industry, including their growing role in helping to manage businesses, whiskey tasting, the creation of the Maker's Mark wax stamp, and the creation of the distilling process itself in ancient Egypt. Anne Shapira ; Bessie Williamson ; Changes ; Gender ; Gender equality ; Husbands ; Influence ; Jewish women ; Kate Latts ; Maker's Mark ; Maria the Hebrea ; Maria the Jewess ; Nosers ; Olfactory senses ; Organoleptic ; Scotch ; Scotland ; Tasters ; Tasting ; Wives Alcohol industry. ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry 17 http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1094-alchemy#anchor2 Encyclopedia entry on Alchemy and Maria the Jewess from Jewish Encyclopedia online. 3387 Bourbon as a family business So it's interesting that you, you shift the conversation to Kate and, and, and come back to the importance of family. Kass talks more about bourbon as a family business, and talks specifically about the Jewish families that were involved in the business. " ; My Son the Folk Singer" ; (album) ; " ; Shake Hands with your Uncle Max" ; (song) ; Allan Sherman ; Barkhouse ; Block ; Bloom ; Blot ; Dreyfus ; Elijah Craig ; Evan Williams ; Family businesses ; Flexner ; Frankel ; Glogower ; Goldberg ; Grabfelder ; Greenbaum ; Harper ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; I. K. Isaacs ; Jacob ; Kahn ; Klein ; Levy ; Louis Levy ; Loventhal ; Martin Hirsch ; Max Shapira ; Oppenheimer ; Prohibition ; Publicker ; Rosenbaum ; Rosensteel ; Rosenthal ; Saxe ; Schwartz ; Simon ; Stein ; Tidelbaum ; Tidelman ; Weiss Bourbon whiskey ; Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 3954 Historical Bernheim advertisement Okay so we're going to end on a, on a slightly different note. Kass gives his opinion on an advertisement the interviewers found in the archives. The ad seems to be targeting African American consumers at a time when this would have been unusual. Archives ; Bernheim ; Demographics ; Minorities ; Prosperity Whiskey Advertising. ; African Americans in the whiskey industry ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Marketing. ; Sales promotion. ; Target marketing. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 17 4247 Reflections on the future of bourbon All right. Is there anything else that--I always like to ask this question before I officially, officially close. Kass reflects on the future of bourbon as interest in bourbon as an artisanal and cultural icon has increased domestic demand, while trying to keep up with demand for bourbon abroad. Jewish pride in the history and future of whiskey, according to Kass, is at an all time high. Jewish whiskey drinkers founded the Whiskey Jewbilee in 2012, a Jewish whiskey sampling event, because Whiskey Fest in New York, the largest whiskey show in the country, held its event over a weekend which prohibited Jewish whiskey drinkers from attending. Building businesses ; Chicago, Illinois ; Demand ; Distilleries ; Economic boom ; Future ; Globalization ; History ; Jewish history ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Jewish Whiskey Company ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; New York City, New York ; San Francisco, California ; Scotch ; Visibility ; Whiskey Jewbilee ; WhiskeyFest Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Economic conditions. ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 40.780, -73.977 17 Location of the first Whiskey Jewbilee at West Side Institutional Synagogue, 120 W 76th St, New York, New York. http://forward.com/food/343294/whisky-jewbilee-all-grown-up/ Article from Forward describing Whisky Jewbilee's changes over time, " ; Whisky Jewbilee, All Grown Up." ; Oral History Larry Kass talks about his childhood in Connecticut. He describes his career as an advertising and marketing executive in New York before moving to Kentucky to work for Heaven Hill Distillery in 1998. He also discusses his family history, including his maternal grandfather fleeing the Russian Red Army in 1917, walking from Ukraine to Amsterdam, stowing away on a boat to Montreal, Canada, and eventually migrating to America. Kass describes his family’s relationship to Judaism as well as his own personal Jewish identity. His parents ensured that he was raised with a strong Jewish identity and he has done the same for his children. Since moving to Louisville, Kass has been an active member in the Louisville Jewish community, including a seven year stint as a member of the Jewish Family and Career Services and as an active member of his Temple. Kass describes the founding of Heaven Hill Distillery in the years following Prohibition and outlines the changes in the bourbon distilling and wholesale distribution industry from being several family-owned, primarily Jewish, operations to fewer consolidated companies. He describes the history of the distilled spirits industry in the United States from the early 1900s, and shares some of his favorite bourbon lingo and phrases. Kass goes into detail about the Jewish families who were involved in bourbon production before and after Prohibition and their influences on the industry, as well as women's role in the industry. Kass reflects on the future of bourbon, and describes the Whiskey Jewbilee, a Jewish whiskey sampling event. WALDMAN:--and rolling. FERNHEIMER: Hello. Uh, my name is Janice Fernheimer. I am the director of Jewish Studies at the University of Kentucky. Today is October first, 2015, and it is my great honor and pleasure to be here with my collaborator, JT Waldman. And with Larry Kass of Heaven Hill, uh, Brands? KASS: Brands. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: That recently changed, so I wanted to make sure I had that right. KASS: Yes, it did change. FERNHEIMER: Uh, thank you so much for being willing to spend an afternoon with us. This interview is part of a large collection called the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence: Jewish Kentucky Project. And it is part of a subset of interviews within that project dedi--dedicated to Jews and bourbon. And we' ; re going to start just by asking us--asking you (laughs) to tell us a little bit about yourself. Um, where you were born, uh, what was your name at birth? KASS: Sure. FERNHEIMER: When were you born? KASS: Sure. FERNHEIMER: Are your parents still alive? KASS: Right. FERNHEIMER: Um, let' ; s start with those, and then we' ; ll keep going. KASS: Okay. Sure. There' ; s, uh, plenty there. Um, uh, I' ; m--Lawrence Peter Kass is my name, which is actually interesting, because I share a name with Yogi Berra, who just passed away. His name was Lawrence Peter Berra. And, uh, so people called me yogi when I was growing up, actually. (laughs) Um, a complete aside. But, um, I--I' ; m actually from, uh--born and raised in Connecticut, though I do try to kind of keep that quiet in the bourbon world. It' ; s kind of an occupational liability to say you' ; re from Connecticut in the bourbon world, I think. So I--um, but yeah, I was born and raised in--in Connecticut. And, um, uh, I came to Kentucky, uh, twenty-two years ago. Um, I was in advertising and marketing in New York, and, uh, had been in New York for about ten years, and got a little tired of--of living in New York. And it' ; s g--a great place to live. But if you can' ; t kind of strike the proper balance, it can--it can wear you out pretty quick. So, um, as I say, I was neither young enough nor rich enough to enjoy life in New York. (laughs) So, um, so I came to Kentucky. I actually had known Louisville--because I had a good friend in college that was from here, so I used to come here for Kentucky Derby every year, and of course, thought this was the greatest place in the world because there was Kentucky Derby, and wow, this place is great. So, um, I c--actually met m--my--who' ; s now my wife here, and, uh, she actually moved up to New York. And, uh, after she lived up in New York for about six months, and I said, " ; I need to move out of New York, would you be interested in moving into Louisville with me?" ; And, uh--and so that' ; s how that happened. Um, I was in advertising and marketing. Uh, as I mentioned, I worked for some big ad agencies in New York, and came here, and started an ad agency that ended up winning the Heaven Hill business. I was running the direct marketing part of that agency. And after they won the Heaven Hill business, I started working on the Heaven Hill account. And, um, after about two years there, I got the opportunity to come over and work at Heaven Hill, and I jumped at that opportunity and have been here ever since. FERNHEIMER: What year was that? KASS: Um, I joined the company in 1998. Um, so, um, I' ; ve been here, I' ; m going to seventeen years, something like that, almost eighteen years. It' ; s--it' ; s way longer than I had ever been at any other job before that. Uh, but it' ; s a--it' ; s a--it' ; s just a great place to work, and, uh, I could talk more about that. But, um, and, uh, like I said, I was--I was born and raised in Connecticut. Um, I, uh, went to a conservative temple there. I spent, uh, the summer of my junior year in Israel, actually. That would have been 1978, which was an interesting time to be in Israel. That was right--I was actually probably one of the last groups that was in the Sinai before they handed it back to Egypt. Um, and, uh--um, uh, you know, as I h--I--I' ; ve been in the business, I guess, in a great time. Um, I' ; ve actually been in the business for a while, now. It' ; s interesting, I' ; m actually--of all our competitors, our big company competitors, I' ; m--been in this business way longer than anybody else in any of the companies. They seem to come and go three or four times. But i--it' ; s been a great time to be in the business from the standpoint of the--I mean, the bourbon world has just exploded in the past, really, seven, eight, ten years, something like that. So I got to see what it was like beforehand, and I got to see what it' ; s like since then. So, um, so, what were the other--I know the background questions that you were asking me about. FERNHEIMER: So, you know, take us a little bit away from bourbon-- KASS: Okay. FERNHEIMER:--and then we' ; re going to come back to bourbon. KASS: Okay. FERNHEIMER: So, uh, I' ; m sorry, and forgive me if you said, but what year were you born? KASS: I was born in 1962. FERNHEIMER: Nineteen sixty-two. KASS: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And are your parents still alive? KASS: Uh, interestingly enough, it was actually--the new year just came and went, of course, and I was happy to see the last year end, because I lost both of my parents in the past year. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m so sorry. KASS: Actually, since April. Lost both of my parents, two and a half months apart. And my wife lost both of her parents in the past year, too. FERNHEIMER: Oy. KASS: So I--it' ; s been--it' ; s been a tough year for us with parents, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. KASS: Um, so, uh, you-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m sorry to trench that up. KASS: No, no, no, no, no. I--it' ; s--it' ; s--you know, uh, it--ah, it' ; s something I think about all the time. You know, I--I, uh, uh, my--my mother, uh--my father s--ha--had multiple myeloma for many years. And--and multiple myeloma is generally manageable. Um, but he relied on my mother to do everything. And my mother had a sudden stroke and--and passed away very, very quickly. And once she went, he really just couldn' ; t really function anymore. So--so we actually just sold the--I--I had been down to Florida--tha--they lived in Florida. It' ; s the old Seinfeld thing. They' ; re from Connecticut, but it' ; s the law in Connecticut, so they' ; re--now they' ; re in Florida. It' ; s that old Seinfeld joke. But, uh, I couldn' ; t (clears throat)--I had been down there, I don' ; t--seven times, eight times in the past (laughs) five months, I think. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. KASS: And my brother and I keep saying, if we never see another golf course community again, (laughs) we will be very, very happy. It' ; s been--it' ; s been, uh, a--a rough--rough go. But they were, uh, you know, uh, I--like I told my kids, I said, how tough this has been on us. Uh, you know, my kids lost all four of their grandparents, but--but what I do tell them, and it' ; s very true. They had, you know, fifteen or nineteen, depending on which one, years of--of very strong grandparent influence in their lives. They were wonderful people, and, uh--and--while they' ; ll be missed, they' ; re--uh, you know, they' ; re--they' ; re--they continue to--to live on in us, as is o--often the case. And--and so--so, um, uh, yeah, I mean, my--my father was an orthodontist in Connecticut, and my mother was an educator, schoolteacher. Taught, actually was the supervisor, of LD programs, learning disabled programs for the city in Connecticut that I grew up in. So, uh, wonderful people. And, uh--and my wife is from here in Louisville, so, um, uh, and they share--her parents--uh, she' ; s actually not Jewish. She' ; s, uh--uh, from, you know, kind of, like, a blueblood Louisville family. So it was an interesting wedding here. And (laughs) Rabbi--Rabbi--uh--uh, Diamond at the temple was--was, uh--was the only one that would marry us. So--(laughs) so he married us. Uh, we got married at the Speed Museum, actually, in one of the galleries. It was nice. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Oh, nice. And what were your parents' ; names? And when did your family come to the US? KASS: Well, my parents were both born here. My--my father was Gerard Cass. Roddy was his nickname. And, uh, he was born in 1930, um, in, uh, the Bronx. And, uh, my mother, uh, Renee Kass--it was spelled " ; Renee," ; but it was p--it was always pronounced " ; ree-nee." ; Um, she was born in Waterbury, actually, in 1932. And my father and his family moved to Connecticut from New York when he was pretty young. And they kind of grew up together. And, um, they were quite poor. Uh, at the time, my grandfather owned a liquor store, interestingly enough. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. KASS: And, um, uh, so they, you know, kind of struggled. Um, my father--I went to, uh, high school at a prep school in Connecticut called Taft. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. KASS: Um, and my dad, interestingly enough, when he was 14, won a half scholarship to go to Taft, which was $750 at the time. And they couldn' ; t afford the $375 to send him to Taft. At the time, it was just--kind of speaks to how poor they were at the time. And that always kind of informed them. Like a lot of people from their generation, they were always very conscious of money and keeping things in order. And so, uh, but, uh, uh, you know, they were just wonderful people, so-- FERNHEIMER: And, uh, so--so you said you were born here. And were they the first generation, the grandparents, to come? KASS: They were first generation. Yeah, their parents--well, actually my, uh, father' ; s father was born in Lithuania, I believe. My--my father' ; s mother was born in Ohio, and nobody in our family can figure out to this day why she was born in Ohio. (laughs) Nobody can figure that out--one out. Um, and then on my mother' ; s side, both of her parents were also from the old country. My--my grand--my maternal grandfather, actually, it was a fascinating story. He was born in 1900, he was conscript--conscript--conscripted into the Red Army-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- KASS: --and, uh, walked away from the Red Army in 1917, and walked from the Ukraine, walked from the Ukraine to Amsterdam, during the winter. FERNHEIMER: Oof! KASS: And I tell these stories about stealing, you know, frozen turnips from people' ; s backyard gardens, and stowed away on a boat from Amsterdam to Montreal, and met his brother who was in Detroit, who came across into Canada, and brought him into the United States. So yeah, just kind of one of these fascinating old--you know, old country stories. I could never get him to talk about it very much, he didn' ; t speak English particularly well. But, um--but, uh, he--he was really the only one of my grandparents that I knew. Um, my, uh--two of my grandparents died well before I was born, and my maternal--my paternal grandmother died when I was about five. So he was the only one that I really knew. But he was a very interesting old fellow, so-- FERNHEIMER: Oh. And do you have siblings? KASS: I do. I have a brother, um, who, uh, lives in the Washington, DC area. He' ; s--he' ; s an attorney, um, and actually specializes in--in Israeli, um, businesses, in--in mergers and acquisitions, uh, with Israeli companies. So, uh, he was just recently with Nixon Peabody. He' ; s moved to a smaller firm now, so, um, yeah, and he' ; s there with his--uh, he' ; s got a family of five there, and, uh, his--he' ; s got two boys that are already, uh, done with college, and one daughter that he' ; s looking--taking to look at colleges, right now, so-- FERNHEIMER: Oh. And is he older or younger? KASS: He' ; s two years older than I am. Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Mm. And h--how would you describe your parents, or your family' ; s relationship to Judaism, and the way that you did or didn' ; t practice as you were growing up? KASS: Um, I mean, while we were not--I would--I would s--characterize this as not necessarily particularly religious-slash-observant. I mean, like a lot of Conservative Jews, we went on High Holidays, we' ; d go on the occasional Sabbath, uh, Shabbat here and there. But Judaism absolutely permeated every fabric, every fiber of our being. I mean, you know, it was more of a cultural lifestyle thing than a--than a religious thing with us. I mean, all my parents' ; friends were Jewish, uh, and, uh, you know, it just--uh, uh, you know, I went to Hebrew School, um, so I had an entire circle of Jewish friends growing up. And do--I mean, it was a--my parents were very, very conscious and cognizant of making sure that Judaism was important in our lives, no doubt about it. FERNHEIMER: And how would you describe your own Jewish identity? Sorry if that didn' ; t come out very clear. KASS: Um, I--w--well, um, you know, I' ; m certainly proud. I' ; m, um--you know, it' ; s interesting, I guess we go through these, uh, kind of individual, uh, cycles and whatnot. But, um, I' ; ve been--um, maybe it has something to do with the--my age, maybe it has something to do with the fact that I' ; ve lost my parents, but I certainly have been kind of f--feeling myself, uh, drawn back to Judaism more, perhaps than I have ever have in the past f--five years or so. Um, so, uh, you know, I--I--my wife is not Jewish, but, uh, I told her, and told my parents, that I was going to raise my--my two daughters Jewish, and I' ; ve done that. And, um--and so that' ; s satisfying, and, um, my older daughter in particular has just gone to Israel for the fourth time. I' ; ve only been once, (laughs) she' ; s been four times. Um, so, um, i--it--you know, it--it--it definitely is, uh--is an important kind of compass in my life these days. And--and again, I think as my--my parents--i--it was interesting losing my parents and kind of--you know, I had an appreciation for kind of the Jewish process of grieving and--and--and healing, you know? The--the Jewish law says that--that, you know, during shiva, you' ; re supposed to--you know, you' ; re supposed to not engage in social activities. You' ; re supposed to not do a lot of things. But when it' ; s over, you' ; re supposed to do those things. And there' ; s something important about that, I--uh, that, you know, there' ; s something wise about that, that you lose track of a little bit when you' ; re in the middle of it. So I found it particularly reassuring. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Yeah. I' ; ve always found the Jewish laws around mourning to be pretty helpful, and--and-- KASS: --yeah, sensible-- FERNHEIMER: --sensible. Um, you' ; ve told us a little bit about how you got to Kentucky, and also a little bit about how you met your wife. But I wonder if you might talk a little bit more about that, and, um--and also about your involvement in the Jewish communities, uh, both as growing up in Connecticut, but also here in Louisville, personally and professionally. You' ; ve sort of touched a little bit on that in your response. KASS: Um, sure. Um, well, uh, in vo--in terms of involvement in the community, um, you know, when I was in Connecticut, um, I--I really left Connecticut when I went away to college. Um, so, uh, I was certainly involved in the Jewish community then. I w--I would say it was mostly at the urging of my parents, more than, um--uh, it was more of a--uh, perhaps a push strategy than a pull strategy, as we say in the marketing business. But, um--but, uh, I mean, since then, and--and certainly here in Louisville, um, I mean, I' ; ve--b--become quite involved. I mean, I' ; ve been on the board of Jewish family and career services here for, that' ; s--I think I' ; m going seventh year, sixth year, um, which is just a wonderful organization. There--there--there are JFCS-like organizations all over the country that you' ; re probably familiar with. And interestingly enough, I found myself kind of turning to the JFCS organization in Florida after with my parents, and u--using them for some resources. So, uh, j--a wonderful organization. And serves not only the Jewish community, but the--the greater community. So, um, and, uh, I--I certainly have been involved in--in the temple. Um, one of the ways that I certainly have been involved in the temple is kind of through my--my role as--here at Heaven Hill, and as somebody that' ; s in--in the--the bourbon business, I had done a lot of different kind of events there, tastings for various youth organizations. Not, like, young, young--(laughs)--youth organizations. You know, young temple member organizations, legal drinking age members. Um, and, you know, we did, uh, a whole series of events there a few years ago as part of their--their main fundraising drive, which was kind of all around, uh, bourbon. So, um, that' ; s kind of been interesting. And certainly, I can tell you in the past, really, four or five years, there has, with increasing frequency, been, um, interest from all over the country, actually. Some international interest, as well, in terms of Judaism and bourbon, Judaism in the distilled spirits business. And, uh, so--so quite topical for--for us to be talking. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So you--you talked a little bit about how things are changing in the--in the bourbon industry in the last few years. Can you tell us a little bit about how things have changed in the Louisville Jewish community just in the time that you' ; ve been here? KASS: Um, sure. Uh, you know, i--i--i--it' ; s--it' ; s a remarkably vibrant community. I mean, um, I always think that the--the s--one of the best gauges of kind of how the community is doing is--is kind of the involvement of young people. And--and--and it' ; s quite remarkable. There' ; s, you know, a l--a lot of--of involvement from children all the way up at--at--at the temple and in the Jewish community in general in Louisville. Um, I mean, it' ; s interesting, you know, there' ; s kind of an old joke about, (laughs) you know, b--in the Northeast, kind of where my parents are from, you know, I said, you know, I' ; ll go to Louisville, there' ; s J--like, there are Jewish people in Louisville? I went out with a girl from Birmingham, Alabama. Like, a Jewish girl. There are Jews in Birmingham Ala--you know, they--it' ; s just, it' ; s kind of half a joke, but they really, you know, have a hard time understanding that. But--but really, I mean, here in Louisville, the--the--the Jewish community is, like it is in so many other places, I suppose, disproportionately influential, I would argue, in terms of--of their numbers. But, uh, um, actually, at this point, when I was considering coming here, of course, Jerry Abramson was--was mayor for life, as they joked. And, uh, so I was able to quickly tell my parents that they mayor' ; s Jewish. So, (laughs) um, and actually at the time when I was going out with this girl from Alabama, the mayor of Birmingham was Jewish, interestingly enough. But so, you know, I--I didn' ; t know a whole lot about the Jewish community in Louisville, uh, really before I moved here. Uh, I--I didn' ; t know a whole lot about it, but, um, i--it' ; s--it' ; s a wonderful, wonderful Jewish community. Um, very, very, uh, tight knit, very, very responsible, socially responsible, socially aware. Um, just a--a--a great community. FERNHEIMER: And so how has your time in Kentucky influenced the way that you think about Judaism? I' ; m sorry if I seem to be hammering on a horse, where we' ; re going to move from Judaism to bourbon in just a second, but-- KASS: --no, no, of course-- FERNHEIMER: --there is a method to our madness. (laughs) KASS: Sure, sure. No, I--I--I--I mean, uh, you know, I guess, similar to spending, I spent a summer in Birmingham. I mean, it' ; s good--I--I--I told my parents, certainly, this, but, you know, somebody that kind of comes from the Northeast, you know, the New York area, it' ; s very tunnel vision there. You kind of think the entire Jewish world is kind of like around there, in the Northeast, and certainly, there are--you know, New York is a very, very Jewish influenced city. Um, but to come to--so either spend a summer in Birmingham, or to spend time in--in Louisville is a good way to see that, um, the influence and importance of Judaism exp--extends well beyond, kind of, what a lot of people think is the traditional areas. And--uh, and so that' ; s--that' ; s, uh, comforting, and, uh, exciting to see. Um, the Jewish community here in Louisville, uh, there' ; s a lot of great business leaders, community leaders, and--um, and they are all very, very involved in the Jewish community. And it' ; s--uh, it' ; s--it' ; s very, very healthy. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So you mentioned that the rabbi at the time was the only rabbi willing to m--marry you and your wife. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the--more of the particulars about how you met, and what her name is, and what your children' ; s names are, (laughs) and how old they are. KASS: Sure. Those, those minor details. Um, yeah, my wife who' ; s--uh, whose name is Ellen. Um, Ellen Horner was her--her maiden name. Um, uh, I--I--(laughs) it' ; s kind of a funny story. I, um--she was--I mentioned, I come down to Derbies with a--a college buddy of mine. Uh, she was best friends with his sister. And, um, I--I used to come down to Derby. And, um, I would--I would definitely have a good time down here. I was, uh--um, didn' ; t have a whole lot of time to do anything else other than party and have a good time. And, uh, you know, the idea of kind of, like, meeting a girl down here never really occurred to me, because I was down here for--for Derby. And, uh--and one year, I guess I let my guard down a little bit, (laughs) and, uh, I--uh, I met my wife, kind of in a romantic way, and--and it was actually a--a Derby fling that turned into a marriage. So, uh--so it--it was kind of an interesting story. She, uh--uh, and we have two children. Uh, my oldest, uh, Abby is nineteen now, going to be twenty in January. Um, and she' ; s a sophomore at--at, uh, Boston University, BU. And my younger daughter, Lily, uh, is fifteen, about to turn sixteen, gulp. And, uh, she is a sophomore at Manual, and DuPont Manual, in the visual arts magnet. She' ; s a very talented artist, so, um, yeah, I--uh, uh, two wonderful, wonderful girls. FERNHEIMER: And how would you say your daughters' ; relationship to Judaism is different to or similar from--si--different from or similar to yours and your involvement in the Jewish community? KASS: Sure. I--I mean, I think, uh, I mentioned earlier, my older daughter in particular has been to Israel a number of times. I mean, it' ; s interesting. They--the--I think they' ; re every bit as cognizant, proud, involved in Judaism as I am. But interestingly enough, I had parents, had very much kind of pushed me, pushed me. And--and--and everything kind of had--you know, they very much controlled my environment. I would say it' ; s almost been the opposite with us. We really, um--you know, my wife is not Jewish. Uh, you know, lots of our friends are not Jewish. We don' ; t--you know, it' ; s a very different situation than certainly my parents growing up. But, my kids have almost ended up in the same place. And there' ; s something nice about that. I think there' ; s something about, you know, the--the--the religion and the culture and the way of life being appealing, no matter kind of which route you come at it from. Uh, and so we' ; ve kind of ended up in the same place, my kids and myself, and, uh, through very different routes. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. Thanks. JT, do you want to switch? WALDMAN: Sure. Well, you already answered my first question, which was kind of how you came to be involved in the bourbon industry in Heaven Hill. So I' ; ll kind of, to--to save us from repeating that. So when--when watching the, um, Kentucky Bourbon Tales interview with Max Shapira, he--he talked a lot about the advantages of the distribution network-- KASS: --um-hm-- FERNHEIMER: --and how that really helped grow the business. Um, can you--can you kind of unpack that a little bit more for us, and kind of what that means? KASS: Sure. Uh, I think what--you know, Max talks about this a lot, and--and, you know, I think a lot of businesses talk about being in the business of relationships, all that kind of cliché. But truly, I really do think that the distilled spirits business, particularly a number of years ago before there was a lot of consolidation, particularly the wholesale tier, really was a business of relationships. And Max is the son of one of the five brothers that founded the company right after prohibition ; with no intention, by the way, of founding a distilled spirits company. They did it purely as an investment. But, the--the amazing thing about the business at that time, and really w--what remained in that, and unique about this bus- well, maybe perhaps not unique about this business, but certainly, uh, a part of this business for a long time, were that many of the business were family owned, particularly at the wholesale level. Um, distilled--the distilled spirits business itself, just to take a step back, is--is just--is a bit of a dinosaur in terms of the way it--it--it works, because we, Heaven Hill, are a supplier, producer, distiller. Whatever, we make the stuff. We, by law, cannot sell to anybody other than the wholesale tier. We cannot sell to a retailer, we--Lord knows we can' ; t sell to a consumer. Uh, we can only sell to the wholesale tier, which obviously bothers the Costcos and Walmarts of the world a great deal, and they' ; re trying to get--get that changed, in a way. But--but that' ; s the way it is. That' ; s the way the laws are. And because our customers really are wholesalers, those are the ones we sell to. Those are the ones that--that, particularly back in the day, that the relationships really were built with. And if you look around, more 20, 25, 30 years ago than now, because there has been so much merger and consolidation, particularly the wholesale tier. But if you look back at our customers, you literally can see each one of them being a family company at some point. And, more often than not, a Jewish family company. And you can literally--Max would be able to do this better than I, but could think of going around the company from Quality Wine and Spirits in Minnesota, the Gold and Barker family. In Florida, the Chaplin family, Southern Wine and Spirits, which has become the company that swallowed everybody else up. The Glazer family that formed Glazer' ; s Distributing. Um, i--it just goes on and on and on. I mean, literally, the Fratens in Rhode Island. Uh, there' ; s just most of the big distilled spirits, distributors, wholesalers, that we did business with, were A, family owned, B, Jewish family owned, and C, we did multigenerational business with them. In other words, Max' ; s father probably started doing business with his peer at the family at the time, and then Max similarly was then doing business perhaps with the son, and--and on and on. So, um, that, I think, is what he was speaking to. That this relat--that this business really was built on relationships between families. Now, as I mention, that has--a lot of that has changed, really, for all intents and purposes, at the wholesale or--or distributor level, there' ; s been an enormous amount of consolidation. Southern Wine and Spirits, Glazer' ; s, Republic, Young' ; s Market. There' ; s three or four that have taken over everybody else. Here in Kentucky, for instance, we used to be Crown Distributing, uh, owned by the Levitch family that we' ; ve done business with since Max' ; s father started doing business with, um--with the Levitches' ; father, uh, in 1940. Um, they are now part of Southern Wine--they' ; re now Southern Wine and Spirits of Kentucky. So, um, but that--that was what Max was talking about, that our customers generally are family owned companies, many of them Jewish family owned companies, and these relationships, most of which did not involve anything other than a handshake. Very few contracts, anything like that, were built on this kind of, uh, uh, trust and relationship. WALDMAN: And yet, what was interesting in the hour-long interview with--with, uh, Max, if you do a keyword search, the word " ; Jewish" ; doesn' ; t appear once--(laughs)--and yet there' ; s lots of mention of these distribution networks, and family, and education, and any-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- WALDMAN: --and anyone who' ; s kind of tuned in to try and hear that subtext can kind of read into it. But w--why do you think that there was no mention o--of that explicitly? KASS: Well, uh, you know, I mean, uh, because, you know, I mean, I--I think--I think there' ; s a couple reasons. One, I think it partly has to do with the personality. Max is somebody that--that, uh, business is business with Max. And--and, um, the reason that we have the relationships with many of these people is--is obviously the family relationship types of things. The reason we continue to have relationships with them is because we do business together, we do profitable business together, we work well together. And at a certain level, that has nothing to do with being Jewish. That has simply to do with business. So, um--so while that certainly is the underpinnings of a lot of the r--the formations and the, uh--the kind of maintenance of those relationships, really, to a certain extent, as far as Max is concerned, that' ; s almost neither here nor there, because it' ; s all about are we doing good business by you, are you doing good business by us? So I suspect that that has a lot to do with it. Um, and it' ; s--it' ; s purely a personality thing. I mean, you know, uh, we have a big wholesaler convention every year. And we would meet with our wholesalers, and many of them would be the families, family members that I' ; m talking about from sons or, uh, multiple generational relationships. And some would come in and start throwing Yiddish phrases around, and boychik and this and that. And some wouldn' ; t, and it' ; s--it' ; s purely, I think, a function of kind of how your personality is as to how much you dial that type of thing up. Uh, Max tends not to dial it up a whole lot. I mean, he' ; s, uh--you know, uh, it' ; s just his nature. Uh, and, uh--and--and I think partly a reflection of the fact that the--you know, he sees the company has, um, the--the portfolio, the profitability of the company, all those types of things, very much in line with everybody else' ; s major suppliers who are not Jewish-owned. So that probably has something to do with it. WALDMAN: He also mentioned a lot about how he would go to parties, and people would ask what he does for a living, and they' ; d be kind of captured by the art and mystery of bourbon? KASS: Yeah. WALDMAN: Could--could you un--what--what does that mean to you? What is the art and mystery of--of bourbon production? KASS: Well, what Max said--and--and this kind of speaks to it. And--and he--he says this all the time, and it' ; s very, very, true, is that basically, if you are sitting in a cocktail party, and you' ; re--you' ; re talking to somebody, and they ask you what you do, and you say, " ; I' ; m a doctor, I' ; m a lawyer, I' ; m in insurance." ; " ; Oh, that' ; s interesting," ; then they take a sip of their drink and you tell them, " ; I--I make bourbon." ; You know, " ; Really? Tell me more about that." ; You know, I mean, it' ; s--it' ; s just--it' ; s one of those things that just tends to kind of, e--lead to more questions. And interest is just--it' ; s just a little bit different and a little bit kind of interesting. And--and so, you know, I think that is a lot, kind of, what--uh, of what he meant there. There' ; s a certain pride, I think, um, also, in--in being in the bourbon industry. Particularly nowadays. There maybe was not so much (laughs) probably 10, uh, 20 years ago. But, um, you know, it' ; s interesting, they--and we' ; ll probably talk a bit more about this, but certainly, we are--are having a great go at it right now. And, um, uh, uh, uh, Senator Stivers, uh, who is a--a prominent state senator here, um, really has talked about kind of what a signature industry is in the state of Kentucky. And it' ; s--and it' ; s an industry that is both growing, economically growing, and is one that you can talk about, and feel good talking about. And if you think about a lot of the quote-unquote signature industries in here in Kentucky--coal, tobacco, horseracing--they don' ; t meet those criteria, both of them. Bourbon does, and--and so, um, eh, there is a certain pride, I think, when you can--particularly for people that are not from here, when you can talk about the fact that you are in Kentucky and you are making bourbon, and making it well. Um, so there' ; s a--there' ; s a certain kind of real, um, pride in--in doing that, and--and--and--and I think from a--you know, re--reciprocal standpoint, interest in--in people hearing about that as well, so-- WALDMAN: And I as--I watched an interview, uh, of you recently, when you were talking about how, um, you were in one of the warehouses, and how the bourbon is different from one row. KASS: Um-hm. WALDMAN: Each barrel is kind of its ow, like, snowflake, in essence, of-- KASS: --right, the magic, right, right-- WALDMAN: --of the magic. So is that--is that your experience when you go to places and tell people about what you do for a living? And--and you talk more about the science behind the process? Is that part of the magic? KASS: Eh, I mean, a little bit, for sure. I mean, you know, this--this business is--is kind of--I mean, eh, when I was in adv--a--in the advertising business, I worked on kind of, you know, lots of different products, credit cards, and yogurt, and everything in the world. And, you know, this business is really--it' ; s just layered, it' ; s just got so much great stuff in it. I mean, it' ; s got so much great history. I--I mean, it' ; s got, um, these crazy characters, these amazing figures, these--um, it' ; s got these places. Um, it' ; s got a sense of place itself, because there' ; s distilleries themselves, uh, in locations with great names. And, um, i--it' ; s--it' ; s got a whole lingo and language unto itself that' ; s just interesting. WALDMAN: What are some of your favorite names? KASS: Uh, people' ; s names, or l--lingo, like-- WALDMAN: Both. Both. FERNHEIMER: Both. KASS: Um, let' ; s see. Uh, well, the lingo, I can tell you, there' ; s--th--there' ; s just great words. Uh, uh, like, um, the--there' ; s just a language unto itself with bourbon, f--and some of it doesn' ; t make any sense at all, and you don' ; t really question it, you just go on. Um, like, here' ; s a great one. Um, single barrel bourbons nowadays have become very, very popular. And, you know, before single barrel bourbons were around, basically, those were the barrels--the best barrels in the warehouses, that he warehousemen or the master distillers kind of knew, that' ; s the really good barrel to sit up on the third or fourth rick in the southwest corner of brick house z. So generally, if somebody wanted to take a little bit of whiskey out of the barrel, they would go to one of those better barrels. And you could tell where the good barrels were in the warehouse, because the barrels below the good barrels, the warehousemen would rub up against to--to--on--to take some whiskey out of the barrel above it. So they would call those " ; shiners." ; --(laughs)--You look for a shiner, because their overalls or whatever they were wearing, would eventually shine the side of the barrel, because they kept rubbing up against it. So they said, you look for the shiners, and the one above the shiner would be the good barrel. I--you know, I just--I just think stuff like that' ; s just very cool, you know? Um, if bourbon, by--by definition, obviously, it' ; s got alcohol, high alcohol in it. As long as you keep your--your bourbon sealed, um, uh, closed, um, the alcohol will not escape, and it will stay forever, um, because alcohol will prevent anything bad from going in there. If you don' ; t put the top on tight, or if the cork leaks a little bit, and the alcohol starts to be able to leave, the alcohol will eventually leave, and you essentially just have this grain liquid, and then bad things can grow in it. And when that starts to happen, if you' ; ve ever seen a bottle of bourbon that--that' ; s happened to, it gets this stuff in it. And for some reason, the old timers refer to that as " ; mother." ; I have no idea where that comes from, but that' ; s what they called it. It looked like this mass of st--it' ; s just weird phrases like that that you kind of come across in the business that are just interesting. You know, and--and the business itself is so, um, you know, p--uh, we talk about this little--a little while, but part of the reason that I think bourbon is just so popular right now is, you know, everybody' ; s into kind of artisanal, slow food, locavore, you know, how is--organic, how is everything made? Um, and bourbon just checks all of those boxes, just by definition, because it has to by--by government definition. And--and so, um, you know, i--it just plays so well in that space right now, and that' ; s such a--kind of a popular space to be in right now, that it' ; s just nice that we' ; ve always been there, and the world has kind of come around to us. And so you start to layer on that history, and sense of place, and the characters, and the language, and you start to get a pretty--a pretty just interesting solt--uh, social, cultural phenomenon, and a very cool one, I would argue, as well. That' ; s--that' ; s kind of--is really popular right now. WALDMAN: Yeah. One of the more interesting terms I think related to the industry is, um, about rectifiers. Could--could you define what a rectifier is, and is there a correlation between rectifiers and--and Jewish purveyors? Or are they separate? KASS: Um, well, y--you know, th--this has to do with, kind of, back in the day, uh, because, um, the distilled spirits world, I would say, before--well, before prohibition, but really before the turn of the century, was a pretty wild and wooly place. There was not a lot of regulation, there was not a lot of control. So, um, uh, i--in order to make your whiskey taste good, um, it may not be well made, but you wanted to--to be able to sell it, so you had to find ways, oftentimes, to make less than I--less than great whiskey palatable. So that was the idea of rectification, was to rectify whiskey which was not good. And you' ; ve--you read that they would--rectifiers, and this was back in the day, and a lot of it was unscrupulous, illegal, dangerous, everything from prune juice to tobacco juice, to iodine, whatever they might add to the whiskey to try and get it to taste better. That was the--the theory behind rectifying whiskey. That all completely went away, really with the Pure Food and Drug Act. And then the Taft Act of 1912, which kind of defined what we--between those two, and the Bottled-In-Bond Act. Between those, it kind of eliminated the possibility of people doing nefarious things to the supply chain, which is basically what rectification was. So, um, at our Evan Williams Bourbon Experience, uh--uh, visitors attraction here in Downtown Louisville, we, um, have a--uh, uh, a recreation of what Whiskey Row here in Louisville looked like in--in the late, uh, nineteenth century. And there were a lot of rectifiers around then, so we have several rectifier offices. And we talk about--uh, about rectification, and kind of what it was, so-- WALDMAN: And do you--was there a higher proportion of Jewish peddlers at that point? KASS: To that point, well, you know, really, again, um, prior to prohibition, when the distilled spirits distribution world was different, you had a situation where, uh, uh a co--uh, a company or family that was producing whiskey, people would come to the distillery and essentially fill, uh, either buy bar--full barrels, or fill large jugs of some sort, and take those back to their store or retail establishment. And then customers would come in, then with their own jugs or other types of--of vessels, and fill those. Um, so that whole three-tier system that we talked about earlier really didn' ; t exist back then. It was very, kind of, uh, wild and wooly in terms of what--what happened. Between that and rectification, you really didn' ; t quite know what you were getting. But, um, y--you--you had a lot of--of--because there were kind of many tiers of the business back then, um, there were Jews that were involved, certainly at the retail level. And we know that there were a lot of--of Jewish families here in Louisville that owned retail establishments that sold basically their own. It was, like, private label whiskey. They would take their own, buy a barrel from a distiller, and put their old--old cornflower, or whatever it might be, label on it. And so there were many families that were doing that here in Louisville. Um, and there certainly were a number of families that were in--Jewish families that were involved in the rectifying business as well. Um, there were, at that point, a number of Jewish families that were actually on the supply side, on the producer side as well. Um, so well known, aside from, uh, people like the Bernheims, who were, you know, obviously very well known. There were a number of other, uh, prominent Jewish families that actually, uh, were whiskey makers. Um, so you had a lot of this involvement in rectification, in retailing, in--in wholesaling and distribution, and in the supply side, um, from Jewish families, really prior to prohibition. Um, once pro--prohibition and the depression and the war, and that kind of tripleheader hit, it really locked--knocked a lot of people in general that were in the distilled--distilled spirits business out of the business entirely. But obviously, a lot of the Jewish people that were as well. And many of them never came back in. Um, a--as was the case in--a lot, in--in other industries, it was about that time, really, World War II, post-World War II, when a lot of the Jewish families really said, " ; Time to become lawyers and doctors now." ; So a lot of them turned more to the professions than to the--the kind of wholesaler mercantile business at that point. Prior to that, though, there were many, many, many Jewish families that were involved, uh, in the retail--retail side. FERNHEIMER: Can I jump in for one second? So you mentioned our conversation prior to this conversation, where you talked a little bit about the three-tier system. But just for the purposes of the interview, if you could re--rehash some of that, and--and about how that--that changed after the war into this, what we now know as the three-tier system. KASS: Sure. Um, yeah, I mean, (clears throat) distilled spirits is, um, really a bit of a kind of a--an anachronism or a dinosaur baby in terms of consumer package goods. We' ; re the only, um, consumer package goods that--that has this, um, non-bendable, completely inflexible three-tier system that we operate under. As a supplier, a distilled spirits manufacturer, we are required by law to only sell to wholesalers, distributors. They' ; re the same thing. Um, i--in the case of a control state, like Ohio, or Virginia, North Carolina, where the state controls the sale and distribution of distilled spirits, we sell directly to the state. But we have to sell to that wholesale, that middle tier. That middle tier then can sell to retailers and to what we call on premise bars and restaurants. Um, the bars and restaurants and retailers then sell to the consumers. So I' ; ve always said, we call it a three-tier system , but really it' ; s a four-tier system, you kind of got to include the consumers, the end user in it, but that' ; s the way it works. I mean, as a supplier, we sell it to wholesalers, wholesalers have to sell them to retailers, and--and bars and restaurants. Bars and restaurants are the ones that then sell to consumers. So there' ; s--there are these firewalls between them that, um, for somewhat anachronistic reasons now, um, but still, somewhat useful, many would argue, um, have remained. And so, um, that, uh--the way this distilled spirit system is set up, um, i--i--first of all, it' ; s very different from the way it was before prohibition and--and the Depression and the war. So once this was set up, it--it really did change the game and change the players that were in it. And as I mentioned, many of them that were in it prior to it got out of it. But it also kind of set us on this course to, um--to be fairly rigid. I--it' ; s--it--you know, uh, the world has changed so much in 50, 60 years. And really the way distilled spirits are sold has not changed a whole lot. It' ; s been modernized, certain aspects of it, but really, there' ; s not been a whole lot of changes to the system. Um, uh, the state of Washington, which used to be a control state, basically privatized a few years ago. That' ; s about the biggest thing that' ; s happened. Um, it' ; s remained fairly s--stable and status quo since then. Um, that makes a lot of us happy, that makes others unhappy. Um, and--and so we' ; ll kind of see where that all nets out, but as of right now, that--that definitely makes us a little bit different than everybody else, and kind of keeps those--those--the business very siloed in that way. Does that answer your question? (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Yeah. WALDMAN: Um, so, on a--on a personal note, what--what--what piqued our interest in the--in the topic of the role of Jews in the bourbon industry was both of us have--took visits to the, um--the Bourbon Heritage Center in Bardstown. KASS: Um-hm. WALDMAN: And it was with a scrutinizing eye--because we both come from academic, uh, realms--where we noticed the Beams coming together to form Maganda Beams. KASS: Right. WALDMAN: Um, so can you--can you talk a little bit about how that was clearly a conscious decision by the designers, and I assume, Harry and Max? KASS: Um-hm. WALDMAN: Can you talk more about how other kind of aspects of Judaism influenced the creation of a heritage center? And then also, even the way with Evan Williams, you' ; ve created a kind of an experiential moment to help tell the story of bourbon. And as a people, we' ; re known of--you know, we' ; re--we' ; re storytellers. Every holiday, you know, we--that' ; s that joke. KASS: Um-hm. WALDMAN: You tried to kill us, we survived, let' ; s eat. KASS: Right, right. WALDMAN: So h--how does--how does that play into these two kind of really important aspects of kind of--of--of preserving the history of bourbon as a whole within this, uh, region, but--but also kind of the Jewish angle into that? KASS: Um, you know, in terms of kind of how Judaism manifests itself in - -in our company and--and in, say, in the Bourbon Heritage Center, you were very observant to--to see the Star of David there in the dot. Um, there' ; s not a lot of very overt, um--I mean, i--i--i--there' ; s just not a lot of kind of Jewishness about--necessarily about our brands, our companies. As a matter of fact, interestingly enough--and this kind of goes to another topic, the Is--the whole idea of Isaac Bernheim and--and Jews making whiskey but never being able to name the whiskey after themselves. The sold story about Isaac Bernheim, of course, is he had this great brand of whiskey, but he dare not name it Bernheim. He took the name of his attorney in Lexington, Mr. Harper, gave it his first two initials, Isaac Wolfe. IW Harper became his brand. Um, but so the--you know, the influence of Judaism is, uh, I would say subtle. Um, I mean, uh, so if--if you look at the Bourbon Heritage Center, you' ; re not going to see a whole lot of, you know, here' ; s a display on how the Shapiras, you know, coexisted with Judaism and--and you just don' ; t see that. Um, because as I said before, I really--it--it just--it--it hasn' ; t been a business b--probably because, again, what we talked about earlier, the fact that there--the--a lot of our customers were Jewish. It was never really an issue, it was just how business was done. It was just business as usual. So--but that being said, I mean, I think, uh--uh, clearly, it, you know, it--it informs--I mean, everything that I--particularly the family that owns the company, the Shapiras, have done. Um, the idea of--of kind of capturing stories and capturing history from--from Evan Williams, that--that your--your point is--is--is spot on there. Um, first of all, the challenge for us with the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience with that visitor center. I mean, we had the other visitor center in Bardstown, and like the other--our--our competitor' ; s visitor center, it' ; s at a big campus, big distillery. And while, here' ; s warehouses, and here' ; s bottling houses, and here' ; s finished goods warehouses. And it' ; s all this grandeur, and huge spaces, and lots of buildings. Well, we decided to build something at 6th and Main, in a little shotgun building, obviously, that whole model goes out the window. So we--we said, okay, how are we going to deliver the most powerful visitor experience here? It' ; s going to be about Evan Williams, it' ; s going to be about, uh, the--the--the man, the nameship of our flagship brand, but he was also this very important figure in the history of Louisville. So, um, we--we kind of did this immersive, uh, experience there where we said we--we--you know, we don' ; t have a huge campus. We can' ; t drive people around, we' ; ve got a shotgun building. The good thing about a shotgun building is this linear--you go straight back, you can tell a story, you come back the other way, you can tell more of a story. So that' ; s kind of what we did. And, um, so yea, we, uh--it' ; s very much about, kind of, initially, particularly about Evan Williams the man and--and, uh - -and, uh--uh, kind of, the role that he played as a figure in Louisville, as a--as a harbormaster and member of the Town Council. Um, and, uh, conveniently, as a--as a distiller of whiskey, we were able to kind of work both of those into the story. So--so, you know, these--uh, the--you know, the story of Evan Williams is one that we felt had not been really told from a historical, kind of, cultural s--uh, standpoint here. Um, you know, we always joked that we had this, um, uh, historical marker there at was kind of on 4th Street in front of the Vault House for many, many years, recognizing Evan Williams as the first, you know, commercial distiller, and is kind of where his still was. It actually wasn' ; t quite near there at all. So we--(laughs)--we had it moved after we opened the Evan Williams center to pretty much where it was at 6th and--and Main there. And, uh, but my--my point there is we' ; ve always had them. My--the marker was there, long before we decided to build the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience. The--the--the--you know, the story was there. He was there, he put his--he built his still there. He was this important guy. So a lot of our brands--Evan Williams, Elijah Craig, Henry McKenna, Fitzgerald, Dant, I mean, I could go on and on. Their--the--the story of those is really about his--key bourbon figures, kind of, forefathers in--in the bourbon business. So, um, that also means that when we' ; re talking the stories of our brands, we' ; re telling the stories of these old guys. So not a lot of Jewishness that necessarily works its way. (laughs) When we' ; re talking about Elijah Craig, the Baptist minister from Scott County. It' ; s not something that seems to--seems to--seems to bubble up much in the story. Clearly, when we talk about the company, it' ; s a little bit of a different animal, but that' ; s, uh-- WALDMAN: And you mentioned--so you' ; ve mentioned a lot of interesting things. You talk about forefathers, and you talked about really unique personalities. Where do the women fit into this equation? You know, the cliché is behind every strong man there' ; s a stronger woman. KASS: Right, right, right. A--and again, this will come up, but hopefully you have the chance to--to speak to--to Anne Shapira, who was the, uh--the widow of one of the five founding brothers. But she--she--she ta--I' ; ve heard her talk at length about this. Um, you know, (laughs) the--the women--you know, and it' ; s interesting. You know, you got to understand this was certainly a--a different time back then. So the--the kind of influence that they could wield, and how they wielded that influence, was perhaps different than how it would be wielded or--or talked about now. But she always talks about how, you know, the--the--the brothers would get together, they--they just were so myopic and so tunnel vision on--on their business that, I mean, they--like, she would talk about they' ; d--they' ; d go--they' ; d do their sales meeting, and they' ; d literally, very fancy sales meeting, they--they' ; d get out a loaf of bread, they' ; d get out, like, a piece of salami. (laughs) They' ; d get out a jar of pickles, and they' ; d get out some newspaper. And they' ; d put the newspaper down on the table, and they' ; d start eating food. And--and she would come in and just see what they were doing. And she' ; d--oh my God! You know, and it--oh my God, you know? And it--and it just--it was more that--that--the--the--the women trying to keep the men normal, on track. Keeping their lives together, because they were so focused, probably to the exclusion of so many other things on just trying to keep their business going. Um, they just--a--and again, Max will certainly be able to speak to this better than I, but my--my--my very real sense is that, you know, the role they played was very much a--keeping their--the normalcy in their husbands' ; lives and their families' ; lives while these guys pursued this business. That was not a--first of all, not a--necessarily a traditional Jewish business, being a producer or distiller of spirits. A--and secondly, a business that was just, by itself, very--very kind of all consuming. So, um--so that' ; s the sense that I get when you--you kind of hear about the--you know, the kind of, um, honest broker, common sense role that they played in steering them away from this world that they just were in. And--and saying, have you thought about all these things? WALDMAN: You--you never heard of any other, um, more active roles of what--women in the industry? Whether in bottling or marketing? I know there' ; s the myth of Maker' ; s Mark wife coming up with the red wax. Are there any other-- KASS: There--so you' ; re talking about in general, not just Jewish? Right? WALDMAN: Either or. Either or. KASS: Well, y--I mean, if you go back to Scotland, actually, um, interestingly enough, women, um, traditionally, and--and--and I give a lot of credence to this. Women are supposedly better nosers and tasters than men. They supposedly have better olfactory senses. So there were s--a number of women, particularly the scotch business that were kind of--Bessie Williamson is a very, very famous one. But she, you know, who just had wonderful s--sense of taste and--and smell, and were very, very important in terms of kind of, um, uh, organoleptic is the word that they like to use. You know, testing, and--and--and making sure that things a--are g--are as they should be, and determining when things are--are of proper age. So there' ; s always kind of been that role. I mean, it' ; s very interesting. It has been a--clearly, the whiskey--the distilled spirits business itself. If the stories that I' ; ve heard of what it was like 40 years ago, to say it was a chauvinistic business would be, uh, a gross understatement. It was very much a man' ; s business for many, many years. Um, that clearly has changed a lot in so many different ways and on so many different levels. And all those different tiers that I talked about on women are--are absolutely, um, uh, have absolutely, uh, you know, equaled or surpassed men in many ways. But for many, many years, this was not exactly an--an equal opportunity business. Kate, uh, uh, Latts, who' ; s Max' ; s daughter, s--you know, when she' ; s been with the company probably 15, 16 years now. She kind of noticed pretty quickly that when she would go to a lot of the kind of executive level meetings, there certainly were not a lot of women in those meetings. Certainly more now, more and more now than there ever have been, and--and certainly she can tell you about that. But, um, so, you know, i--it' ; s--the business is changing a lot. Um, and, uh, you know, nowadays, the role that women play, uh, runs the gamut, I mean, from management roles to, um--to more of the lab, technical sensory roles. I mean, so it' ; s--it' ; s all across the board. Um, you know, a number of years where that was not the case, where women had influence, was--was areas where they--they--they could have influence, and--and certainly one of those was in terms of--of tasting. WALDMAN: Are you also familiar with Maria the Hebrea, or Maria the Jewess, who' ; s considered to be the inventor of the-- FERNHEIMER: --the still-- WALDMAN: --the still? KASS: I haven' ; t heard this one, no. Where--where--where is--where is-- WALDMAN: She' ; s from Alexandra, Egyptian, ba--we' ; re talking, like, thousands of years. KASS: Okay. Yeah, yeah. It' ; s because distillation actually was--it does go back either to the Moors or to the Egyptians. WALDMAN: She' ; s apparently credited as being the creator of the--of the still. KASS: Well, uh, you know, typically, distillation--I mean, distillation was used to make perfume. It was used to make medicines-- WALDMAN: --exactly-- KASS: --it was used to make so many different things that kind of the idea of making alcohol with it was almost a--an afterthought, really. But, uh, yeah, I--you know, I mean, um, uh, (laughs) you know, I--Kate, at this point, really, if you want to talk about somebody. Again, we' ; re--we' ; re in a different time right now, but--but Kate certainly has been here at time when, you know, she' ; s the one that runs basically all the marketing programs here. And, uh--and she, uh, certainly has i--is--I--I think it' ; s safe to say one of the more high positioned women in this--in the--in the business right now. And, um--and--and she' ; s, uh--uh, in and of hers--uh, in and of itself, has seen a--a pretty big seat change, and kind of the numbers of women and--and the--and the influence of women in just the 15 or 16 years that she' ; s been here. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So i--it' ; s interesting that you--you--you shift the conversation to Kate and--and--and come back to the importance of family. One of the things that struck me--(laughs) perhaps this is the moment I' ; m in--in--in my own personal life, uh, with a new baby. And yesterday, we were stuck in the archives, uh, had a baby on my back, because the babysitter of course canceled at the last minute.--(laughs)--But Max beings--uh, he talks about this moment, how deeply engrained he was in the family business that obviously, he was too young to recall this memory. It must ha--have been a story told to him, but how he was a baby swaddled, uh, with his parents at the bottling plant? And--but he distinctly talks about both of his parents being there. And so it wasn' ; t just--a--and--and you sort of allude to this in the way that, you know, you talk about nineteenth century women' ; s ways, and the ways that women influence men. But both his parents were at the plant, and so it clearly was a kind of family, um--it was important to both parents in the family. And we look forward to speaking with Anne, uh, very soon. But I wonder if there were other women in the family who--who kind of appear in those sideways ways that women often do in these types of stories, at least in the past. Uh, at the plant, with the baby. Uh, walking in and making sure that they' ; re eating dinner, or that, you know-- KASS: --sure, right, right, right-- FERNHEIMER: --they have something other than the pickles. KASS: Well, you know, I mean, uh, family business being what it is, the family never stops thinking about the business. I mean, and I certainly know that it was that--that was the case with the Shapiras. There were five of them, five brothers with--you know, all of them except one married with families. So, I mean, there was a whole network, there that--that, if nothing else, relied (laughs) on the distillery for everything. Um, the--their--their Sunday night dinners were, for instance, always kind of, uh, um, you know, the subject of--interestingly enough, they always had a Sunday night dinner that--that was the subject of lots of legend. And the Beam family, as well, are distillers. They also did a Sunday night dinner that I always heard lots of stories about. But they would always get together. Um, you know, the--the stories that I would hear would--I think were probably pretty typical of--of these types of families and situations. They never not--they never didn' ; t talk about business. I mean, it--it was never--there was never a sense of, " ; Okay, we' ; re getting together for a holiday, for this, that, whatever. You know, we don' ; t talk about business, it was just--it was just ever bit of their being was so wrapped up in it that that was just what they did all the time. Um, I suspect--and again, because of that--Max, you know, he tell--tells the stories about, you know, when he was real young about how he got to open the gates up for the trucks-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- KASS: --and things like that, and what a cool thing that was for a little kid to do. And--and, you know, I' ; m sure the reason he did that was his dad had to be able to play it, and his mother maybe went with her father to--for whatever reason, and Max had to go as well. And so again, that was one of those situations where, you know, I--I say this more often about our distillers, the Beams and anything, but it' ; s like, you know, the--the--the whiskey doesn' ; t take a day off. So the distiller can' ; t take a day off. Really, the--the guy that owns the company can' ; t take a day off either. I mean, Max, to this day, he goes in--he' ; s gone in every Saturday, at least--and he goes on some Sundays, but he' ; s going in every Saturday, I mean, for 40 years. Every Saturday, he goes in. As a matter of fact, he loves going in Saturdays because it' ; s quiet, and he can get all this work done, and I get a million messages and emails and things from him on Saturdays because that' ; s when he goes and gets stuff done. So it' ; s a family-owned company, they live, eat, and breathe it. I think that--that went everywhere, the--the wives knew that, knew that the husbands were doing that. Not only provided support so that they could do that, but--but were there themselves, um-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- KASS: --to--to--to--to be at the businesses, so-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And to continue on the family business line, you mentioned, when you were talking about all of the ways that Jewish families were involved in the business, uh, before prohibition, and since we' ; re at the beginning of the research path right now, I wonder if you might be able to share some of the specifics of the names of the Jewish families that were involved before prohibition. And I wonder if you might do a wonderful rendition of that lovely song you recalled to us-- KASS: --oh no, no, no-- FERNHEIMER: --before. The--the--the video was rolling, because it was fabulous.--(laughs)--Uh, and it' ; s also a great way to--to help t--um, trigger the memory about those names. KASS: (laughs) Well, I mean, I' ; m going to have to--I' ; m going to have to go to my cheat sheet here. But, um, yeah, (laughs) uh, I got to keep my mouth shut next time.--(laughs)--The, uh--no, the--the--the--the--(laughs) I--uh, I--I, you know, kind of have done this present, you know, when we--again, to our--the earlier point about how topical and interested people have become in the past five, ten years, and kind of the role of--of, uh, distilled spirits and bourbon in Judaism, um, uh, I' ; ve ended up kind of talking to people about, you know, the different families that were involved in the different types of businesses. And--and it--it does end up with this list of--you know, this laundry list of Jewish names. And, uh--and the reference that I was making so that--so that people don' ; t think I' ; m completely crazy is--is you' ; re--you' ; re going to need to--to--to--to reference this, and--and Google it, but it' ; s the famous s--Jewish comedian-singer named, uh, Allan Sherman, uh, who--who, uh--who did, uh, " ; Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah, here I am in Camp Granada." ; That' ; s what most people know him for. But on that same album--which is, I believe, called My Son, the Folk Singer, um, there is a song called " ; Shake Hands with your Uncle Max," ; I believe it' ; s called. Um, and it' ; s basically about him being a salesman, and he goes away, and he comes back, and his mother has all his friends and family there, and it' ; s this whole laundry list of Stein with an e-i, Styn with a y, and Tidelman, Tidelbaum, Tidel--you know, all the--all the names. So, but i--if you look at the--the--the--the--retailers, on Main and Market Street, you have Rosenthals, Frankels, Blocks, Levys, Oppenheimers, Rosenbaums, Blooms, Flexners, Glogowers, Kleins, Loventhals, Kahns, Jacobs. Um, all families that, uh, had retail businesses, um, as I mentioned, selling whiskey, that they would bring in in a--probably a barrel from--from a--uh, a, uh--a supplier. So, um, wholesalers, uh, backrow Blot, Goldberg. Rectifiers, you had Rosenbaum, Dreyfus, Weiss, Simon, Greenbaum, Martin Hirsch, Louis Levy, IK Isaacs. So, um, again, uh, a lot of, kind of, um, fairly traditional Jewish names, but, uh, a lot of families here that--uh, that kind of trace the l--their business back to, at some point or another, distilled spirits. FERNHEIMER: And you had mentioned there were even some additional families in the supply side before prohibition. Do you ha--do you remember who those-- KASS: Yeah, yeah. Um, th--they' ; re actually, um, uh, the Barkhouse Family. Um, uh, Lo--and actually, the Barkhouse--Louis Barkhouse was the president of the Temple f--in the 1880s. Uh, the Sachs Family, the Schwartz Family. I--I could tell you all their brands, but these were all families--um, the Grabfelder family as well-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- KASS: --um, and Sam--not only was Samuel Grabfelder a--another president of the temple in the 1890s, but Max' ; s wife Ellen is related to the Grabfelders-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- KASS: --as I found out after we started to do all this, they said, " ; Oh, you know, Ellen' ; s actually a Gra--uh, a Grabfelder. So, um, so those are a lot of the families that--that were involved in making whiskey, primarily prior to prohibition. Um, post Prohibition, um, a lot of them, uh--uh, of course, there were the Bernheims as well, but, um, the Shapiras, actually, in terms of the ones that really kind of lasted post Prohibition. Then you had, you know, um, Jewish families that--that obviously ran Seagram' ; s company, with the Bronfman family. Um, the Schenley Company was run--w--was run by the Rosenstiel Family. Um, the, uh, Publicker, uh, Company was another very large. That was the--the Publicker family. All Jewish families. FERNHEIMER: And so speaking of Jewish families, and--who' ; s still in the business and the--who' ; s still around that, uh, if you have suggestions, obviously, Kate and Anne are very high (laughs) in our list of where to go next. But, uh, outside the Shapira family and outside the Bernheim family, that we know about, are there other people that you would recommend that we should definitely not miss talking to? KASS: Sure. FERNHEIMER: There' ; s a good double negative for you. (laughs) KASS: (laughs) Um, you--you--y--uh, you should definitely talk to the Levitch Family. Um, you know, in terms of--of, uh, the wholesalers. Um, they' ; ve been there and involved in the business, uh, for multiple generations. Um, so they are--are--are certainly a--uh, an important family for you to talk to. Um, other than that, uh a--and I--and I--did we mention--I mentioned Tom Block as well-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- KASS: --who' ; s, uh--uh, the Bernheim' ; s family' ; s, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --Bernheim-- KASS: --uh, yeah, I think those are--those are probably the--the ones I think that--that, f--in terms of the continuity to today, probably, uh, are--are the ones you should--you should talk to. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. WALDMAN: Okay. So we' ; re going to end on a--on a slightly different note. So yesterday, we--um, we went to the temple, and we met with Sydney- KASS: --um-hm-- WALDMAN: --and y--she sh--she gave us access to, um, some of the archival, uh, information and--and images. And--and we came across this image, um, of an advertisement from Bernheim. And I' ; m hoping you can put on your marketing/advertising hat, and--and kind of tell us what you think this image, who it' ; s trying to sell to, and what this image is about. KASS: Hmm. I' ; ve never seen this before. Did--was this part of the--I guess I probably have seen it. FERNHEIMER: It was in the same boxes. Unlike Max, who was swaddled, I had my son in one of those baby carriers on my back, and he was reaching in to look at these archival materials. (laughs) WALDMAN: And of--of all of the images that I found, I--I found this one to be very striking. Um-- KASS: Boy, it is really hard to say what this image could have been. I mean, it looks like a wedding, is that what it is? FERNHEIMER: That was our best guess. WALDMAN: But it' ; s--it' ; s, uh, clearly an advertisement for Prosperity Whiskey. KASS: Prosperity Whiskey. WALDMAN: But with--with such a pronounced African American, you know-- KASS: --um-hm-- WALDMAN: --uh, image there. Clearly, Bernheim was marketing to a specific demographic. Or what do--what do you think? KASS: Oh, it' ; s interesting. It says, " ; Complements of Bernheim Distributors." ; That is interesting. Uh, I--the--y--I mean, I--I almost wonder if this was a quote-unquote " ; advertisement," ; per se. I mean-- FERNHEIMER: What else would--would you imagine it might have been? KASS: I--I mean, I don' ; t know--I--I don' ; t know if it--it as a--uh, it--it seems strange that they would put " ; Complements of Bernheim" ; on that. That just seems a strange wording, for some reason. Uh, I--you know, I can' ; t begin to fathom a guess as to what this is. I mean, it--it seems fairly contrived. I mean, it seems fairly posed and set up, whatever it is. Um, I--I--it' ; s hard for me to say what this could be. Uh, I mean, I guess it' ; s somebody' ; s vision of prosperity. (laughs) That' ; s the best guess I can say. Um, oh, that' ; s interesting. I mean, you don' ; t see a lot of--of kind of cross-cultural advertising like that. You don' ; t see a lot of--oh. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I--I mean, because you mentioned, kind of, the old boys' ; club. And so it' ; s--it' ; s intriguing to try and understand, you know, the role of African Americans, and Native Americans, and women, and kind of people who clearly were involved in this industry, but their story isn' ; t necessarily told so often. KASS: No, and particularly not in--in anything that is promotional of any sort like that. Um, yeah, I--I--you know, I--I' ; m really hard pressed, and--and, you know, I--that would be one that I would be interested to hear what a Mike Veitch, uh, historian, or even a Tom Block, who' ; s a relative of the Bernheims, whether-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- KASS: --what his take on that might be. He might say, " ; Hmm, I--I' ; ll need to get back to you on that one." ; But--but that' ; s interesting, I hadn' ; t seen--I--don' ; t recall seeing that, actually, so, thank you. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: We--we--well, do you have more ques-- WALDMAN: That' ; s all I have. FERNHEIMER: I--we' ; re--just want to close by thanking you so much for spending an afternoon talking with us, and helping us get on the record some of the tremendous institutional knowledge that you have. Um, we began the conversation before the conversation talking about the importance of--of compilation, of assembling material. And, um, something that you said during this interview really s--stood out to me, which his that it was so much a part of the business, that you didn' ; t have to talk about it, that it--it was just understood. And yet, i--if you' ; re an outsider coming into this industry, or if you' ; re someone coming through the Bourbon Heritage Museum and you don' ; t look up in the tasting room, you might never know that. KASS: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And so that was part of the--our motivation for meeting with you today, to get some of this onto the public record. KASS: Sure, sure. FERNHEIMER: And we' ; re just very grateful that you were willing to meet with us, and spend this much time talking to us. And--and we' ; re delighted to--to leave with a puzzle that hopefully, we' ; ll all get to begin to solve together! KASS: Yeah. I mean, you know, I--I--I feel like again, you know, there are so many other people you can talk to that are more primary-type source that-- FERNHEIMER: And we look forward to doing that, too! KASS: Yeah. You know, Max will really be able to--to tell you more about, obviously, (laughs) more about the insights in terms of--of his family and how they chose to dial up or not dial up their religion within the business context. Uh, so, um, yeah, there--you know, the--the--the good thing is that, you know, the--there are still some really great people for you to talk to with great stories to be told, that need to be recorded. Without a doubt. FERNHEIMER: Okay. KASS: So you all are doing a tremendous service. FERNHEIMER: Oh. Thank you so much. KASS: Okay. FERNHEIMER: All right. Is there anything else that--I always like to ask this question before I officially-officially close, which is, is there anything that we didn' ; t ask you about that you feel like we should know, or that we missed that you want to add to the record before we close it for today? KASS: I--I--I don' ; t think so. N--no, I mean, you know, really, this was more a kind of look back. You know, I mean, there is a lot to be talked about in terms of, kind of, the business to--I mean, because it' ; s--you know, it' ; s--uh, again, this goes back to what I talked about earlier. You know, it' ; s--it' ; s never been--I' ; ve been doing this a while, and it' ; s in this just very incredible phase right now where, you know, we' ; re really near--w--we' ; re--we' ; re just going up, so at some point, clearly, we' ; re going to reach this plateau. But, um, i--i--you know, the--the--bourbon itself just has so much, kind of, cultural cachet right now, and just, from my perspective, I, you know, having tried for so long to get anybody to (laughs) understand what it is, and how it relates to the other whiskies. It--it just is--has been such a--a--kind of an amazing run here for the past five or six years. So I think there' ; s a lot to--to be talked about in terms of, kind of, like, what the--what--what--what' ; s going to happen from now on? You know, what--where the business will go now? Um, you know, what the--the international demand. Uh, that--was that--that whole--right now, we' ; re h--we' ; re struggling to keep our inventories in line, to just supply the domestic market. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. KASS: Um, a few years ago, the--two years ago, actually--the--the--the state always releases the export figures. And--and the--uh, actually, bourbon exports take down by, like, half a percent every day. It' ; s like, (gasps) the bubble' ; s burst. Oh my God, it' ; s the end. No, we just don' ; t have enough-- FERNHEIMER: --supp-- KASS: --juice to send to--to a lot of the international markets. So there' ; s all this building that' ; s going on right now. We' ; re all just spending millions and millions of dollars--you know, we spent $25 million in the past four years on visitors and production facilities. And we have more planned. And so, um, i--it just--the s--uh, it' ; s at this amazing point right now, and we keep on getting asked, you know, i--will it go b--will it continue, will it continue, will it continue? So that' ; s--that whole idea is in--you know, that whole area is an interesting--it' ; s a different subject, a subject we haven' ; t touched a lot on. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. KASS: But, you know, again, there' ; s--there' ; s certainly plenty to look back on, so-- WALDMAN: Well, hopefully, our work can contribute to that part. FERNHEIMER: What-- KASS: I hope so too, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Last follow-up on that. So we talked a lot about the Jewish past involvement in bourbon. And so as--as you bring up this question about the future, I wonder if you might speculate a little bit about the role of that Jewish past in helping to project forward to a-- WALDMAN: More kosher bourbons. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, the--the move to get kashrut ci--certification for bourbon, even though bourbon is a whiskey, so-- KASS: Uh, well, yeah, we' ; re a--believe me, just because it is, as you know-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, I know-- KASS: --it runs through this line, the line' ; s got to be kosher. So that' ; s really where tha--all that comes in. But--but u--oh, I mean, i--wha--you know, you' ; ve never seen more visibility in terms of, kind of--proud visibility in terms of--of Jewish whiskey drinkers. Um, have you all heard about the Jewish whiskey company? Have you all heard about Jewbilee? FERNHEIMER: Yes. KASS: Okay. Um-- FERNHEIMER: But for the record, can you explain a little bit what it is? KASS: Yeah, so I' ; ll actually tell you the origin of Jewbilee. Um, there--there' ; s been this Jewish whiskey company around for a while. And what they' ; ve done is just a bunch of--of, uh, religious, young, Jewish guys, and they did scotch, mostly. And it--this was a--there--there--what are traditionally called merchant bottlers, where this is a--a--a well-established practice in the scotch business, where they' ; ll buy barrels from a distillery, and they will bottle it under their own name, basically, and they' ; ll say this is a barrel from Glenmorangie, or wherever it may be. Um, so that' ; s what the Jewish whiskey started as, just with their own little angle. They were Jewish, and they called themselves the Jewish Whiskey Company, and that was their thing. Um, about five years ago, the biggest whiskey show of the year--um, it' ; s called Whiskey Fest. And they have Whiskey Fests--actually, there are now three--four markets, New York, Chicago, San Francis--no, three markets, New York, Chicago, and San Francisco. And they' ; ve been around for, like, twenty-one, twenty-two years. They' ; ve been around way longer than any other whiskey show has. And the one in New York, just as a--in and of itself, is a good example of kind of the--you know, how--how interested, um, uh, you know, Jews are in whiskey, because there are li--I mean, there' ; s probably two thousand people that come to it, but they' ; re--you just literally see hundreds and hundreds of--of--there' ; s Hasidim there, lots of people with yarmulkes on. There actually is a kosher food section there. So I said, well, that says it all. There' ; s actually a kosher food section at Whiskey Fest. Um, so there' ; s always been this really strong, kind of consumer interest, that' ; s been there. Um, but what happened was Whiskey Fest was always on. New York was traditionally on, like, a Tuesday night. Which, as far as we' ; re concerned, was always a really good night to have it, because, uh, the bar owners could come. If you do it on a weekend, bar owners can' ; t come, because they' ; re too busy trying to--you know, it' ; s a big night for them. So it was always a great night to do it. Well, the guy that runs it, who publishes a--a major whiskey magazine, decided, uh, four years ago or something, to do it over a weekend, and to make it a bigger event, and to separate, have one day of just seminars, and a show, and to really blow it out. And of course, (laughs) um, what became pretty obvious when he announced his intention to do that was, we said, well, what about all these Jewish people that are walking around here? None of them are going to be able to come to the Whiskey Fest. So sure enough, he said, " ; Eh, I know that, but I' ; m going to do this anyway." ; So what happened was the folks behind the Jewish Whiskey Company basically did a protest show against John. Um, and they called it Whiskey Jewbilee.--(laughs)--Uh, and they did it--the first one was at, like, the--was at, like, one of the Jewish centers in, like, I don' ; t know, SoHo or something. It was very small, but it was really crowded, and really--um, and since then, it' ; s kind of--no, since then, John has gone back to not doing over the weekend. But still, Jewbilee has actually managed to kind of keep quite a bit of--of power behind it, and--and has been a--a pretty--a pretty good event. So, um, so, you know, you' ; ve got--you know, we talked earlier about, you know, there' ; s this awareness now, there' ; s articles about, you know, kind of these various synagogues that, instead of, you know, having, you know, bad wine for owning Shabbat, they' ; re serving, you know, 1942 Macallans or whatever. This is, uh, kind of a phenomenon right now. So--so there definitely is, um, a strong interest in contingent. I know, and personally know, a number of people who are either writers or, say, kind of in the business in some way shape or form, who are Jewish and who are very conscious of kind of writing about this, keeping this alive. So i--it' ; s very much a strong undercurrent now that you' ; ve really only felt in the past four or five years. But--but definitely is there, and definitely is growing. And, you know, we--we talk--you know, it' ; s interesting, you know, we--you know, i--I wouldn' ; t say we downplayed it, but we never talked a whole lot about being a Jewish company before, and--and it' ; s not like we lead with that so much either. But--but, you know, I mean, that' ; s a--when you go to New York Whiskey Fest, that' ; s a pretty nice thing to be. So, um, uh, it puts you in a good position. So-- FERNHEIMER: Mm. Well, thanks for putting us in a good position. Um-- KASS: Sure. I--yeah. FERNHEIMER: I ho-- KASS: I hope I hav e FERNHEIMER: And, uh, I think we' ; ll actually be able to get you in a good position for your next meeting as well, so-- KASS: But I hope I, uh, will be able to--to talk to her, so. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Thank you so much. KASS: Well, so, I mean, do you want to, um--let me know what you want to do in terms of--of speaking to people. Uh, like I said, I' ; ve spoken to--to Tom, uh, and, you know, Max knows. FERNHEIMER: We would--any kind of-- WALDMAN: ------Any entrée you' ; re--you' ; re willing and able to provide would be fabulous. Yeah. KASS: Well, yeah. I mean, I' ; m happy to--you know, and, you know, this is the type of thing that people would be happy, I' ; m sure, to talk to you about. Uh, you know, again, to our earlier point, there' ; s--there' ; s a lot of pride in this. So--um, so yeah, um, Tom, I can--I' ; ve already told him that I' ; ve--you know, I' ; ve spoken to you about him. And I think I can probably just--I' ; ll just email him, copy you on it, and say-- FERNHEIMER: --okay, great, that' ; d be wonderful-- KASS: --I' ; ll just introduce you to him, and email, and you can go ahead and get in contact with him. Because he--he would be really, a--a--a good person to--to talk to. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And I imagine Anne or Kate or Max would be a little bit harder to nail down with their schedules? I' ; m-- KASS: Uh, well, they will be. Um, uh, Anne will be easier than the other two, um, but, um, she' ; s still remarkably busy. FERNHEIMER: So how--how do we get a hold of Anne? I imagine she' ; s not necessarily available. KASS: I would say the way to do it would be through Harry' ; s widow, through Judy. FERNHEIMER: Okay. KASS: Yeah. So, um, that would be the best way to do that. So, um-- WALDMAN: We want to talk to Judy anyway, so--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: Y--yeah. KASS: Yeah, yeah. Judy would be a good person to talk to as well. Um, uh, so yeah, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Maybe after we close this, then we can talk contact information so it' ; s not--(laughs) KASS: Yeah. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh432_jk008_kass_ohm.xml 2015oh432_jk008_kass_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Title
A name given to the resource
Larry Kass, October 1, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Larry Kass talks about his childhood in Connecticut. He describes his career as an advertising and marketing executive in New York before moving to Kentucky to work for Heaven Hill Distillery in 1998. He also discusses his family history, including his maternal grandfather fleeing the Russian Red Army in 1917, walking from Ukraine to Amsterdam, stowing away on a boat to Montreal, Canada, and eventually migrating to America. Kass describes his family’s relationship to Judaism as well as his own personal Jewish identity. His parents ensured that he was raised with a strong Jewish identity and he has done the same for his children. Since moving to Louisville, Kass has been an active member in the Louisville Jewish community, including a seven year stint as a member of the Jewish Family and Career Services and as an active member of his Temple.
Kass describes the founding of Heaven Hill Distillery in the years following Prohibition and outlines the changes in the bourbon distilling and wholesale distribution industry from being several family-owned, primarily Jewish, operations to fewer consolidated companies. He describes the history of the distilled spirits industry in the United States from the early 1900s, and shares some of his favorite bourbon lingo and phrases. Kass goes into detail about the Jewish families who were involved in bourbon production before and after Prohibition and their influences on the industry, as well as women's role in the industry. Kass reflects on the future of bourbon, and describes the Whiskey Jewbilee, a Jewish whiskey sampling event.
Identifier
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2015oh432_jk008
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jews--Identity.
Women in the whiskey industry
Bourbon whiskey.
Entrepreneurship
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
Alcohol industry.
Distilleries--Kentucky
Family-owned business enterprises.
Whiskey industry--Kentucky
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
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https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/b943fc6476d702d12179bcf9d533daa4.jpeg
7809299c36ec66790776a5e7e5e5457a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jack Miller
Interview Keyword
Holidays.
Fasts and feasts--Judaism.
Military service, Voluntary--United States.
Family histories.
Civil rights demonstrations
College students--Religious life
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh343_jk007 Interview with Jack Miller, August 31, 2015 2015oh343_jk007 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Childhood Jewish children Jewish families. Religion Jews--Identity. United States--Race relations. African Americans--Relations with Jews. Worship (Judaism) Greek letter societies. University of Kentucky Holidays. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Military service, Voluntary--United States. Family histories. Civil rights demonstrations College students--Religious life Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jack Miller Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|29(3)|51(4)|75(8)|94(11)|121(10)|151(9)|163(8)|198(3)|237(10)|250(4)|262(13)|306(1)|340(5)|348(4)|372(7)|387(1)|399(2)|418(9)|433(13)|460(8)|486(6)|521(10)|537(13)|547(14)|562(6)|587(8)|603(15)|619(10)|642(12)|661(3)|677(11)|701(8)|729(2)|747(1)|766(4)|800(16)|820(1)|859(3)|895(9)|943(3)|972(4)|993(1)|1027(7)|1047(8)|1085(9)|1105(5)|1131(12)|1171(9)|1213(4)|1238(11)|1274(4)|1297(1)|1317(13)|1333(10)|1353(3)|1361(7)|1367(17)|1381(11)|1393(4)|1412(3)|1434(3)|1450(8)|1458(1)|1472(13)|1489(10)|1506(3)|1522(7)|1536(12)|1553(8)|1565(5)|1573(13)|1583(7)|1591(14)|1615(6)|1630(4)|1641(9)|1659(9)|1672(6)|1698(3)|1731(3)|1757(1)|1766(7)|1790(5)|1807(5)|1832(10)|1852(8)|1873(10)|1886(3)|1904(6)|1925(4)|1935(12)|1945(12)|1953(12)|1966(5)|1982(9)|2016(2)|2024(5)|2032(7)|2042(7)|2054(9)|2061(11)|2075(7)|2088(10)|2101(12)|2121(11)|2140(6)|2162(1)|2170(10)|2181(12)|2188(15)|2207(4)|2220(3)|2234(6)|2248(2)|2259(6)|2275(8)|2297(6)|2319(10)|2339(3)|2365(11)|2381(8) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253337238" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family background For official purposes, today is August 31st, 2015. Jack Miller was born in Lexington, Kentucky on November 29th, 1935. Jack's family originated from Germany. There were also three generations of Millers that had been living in Cincinnati. His family origins in Cincinnati can be traced back to the late 1800s. Ancestry ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Germany Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. 51.165691, 10.451526 17 Germany http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/cityofcincinnati/ A link offering the history of the city of Cincinnati 169 Establishment of a law firm and Miller Brothers General Store And were they all lawyers? Miller's family opened a general store on the corner of Main street and Broadway. Starbucks is located there today. The store was a general store opened sometime in the 1870s. Jack also operated a law firm after he graduated in 1962. Benjamin Miller Entrepreneurship ; General stores ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.048659,-84.499160 17 Location of where Starbucks is today. Former location of Miller Bros. 449 Siblings / childhood Do you have siblings? Miller had two brothers. However, one of his brothers passed away before he was born. His other brother Robert also passed, and he was about 2.5 years younger than Jack. Jack attended primary school at the Taylor Education building. He was an active member of the school's basketball team. Jack discusses all of the sports and silly games he used to play as a kid. Basketball ; Brothers ; Death Childhood ; Education--Kentucky ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 38.040625,-84.507259 17 Location of Taylor Education Building. http://ukcc.uky.edu/cgi-bin/dynamo?maps.391+campus+0001 History of Taylor Education Building 756 Religious observation Uh--(laughs)--well can you tell me a little about your parents' relationship to Judaism when you were growing up? Miller discusses how and why his family put up a Christmas tree even though they were heavily involved in Temple life. He also mentions the divide between the Temple and the Synagogue. He was also a part of the first B'nai Mitzvah group, however, this didn't occur until later in life. B'nai Mitzvah ; Christmas ; Hanukah ; National Federation of Temple Youth Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 37.998629, -84.471813 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue http://www.ozs.org Synagogue's website 1290 Societal trends at Temple Can you describe, aside from the Christmas tree, uh, what Judaism was like in your family? Miller discusses Jewish life around the High Holidays, and how he had only been involved in one issue of someone saying something nasty about Jews. He also discusses how his father, along with other men in the congregation, would smoke cigarettes outside of the Temple on the holidays. Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Cigarettes ; Discrimination. ; Perspectives ; Religious Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1728 Relationship to Rabbi Grafman Tell me about your connection with Rabbi Grafman. Rabbi Grafman was one of the seven clergy men to sign the " ; Letter to Birmingham Jail," ; which was written on April 16, 1963. Miller also discusses more about his relationship with Rabbi Grafman, as well as how he felt about race relations. He discusses Jewish holiday observance in the community as well. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Letter to Birmingham Jail ; Race ; South African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Racism ; United States--Race relations. ; Worship (Judaism) 33.496346, -86.823036 17 Birmingham City Jail http://police.birminghamal.gov/bureaus/support-operations/jail/ Birmingham City Jail 2067 College and active military experience And so after you graduated from high school and you went on to study at UK. Miller discusses how he attended the University of Kentucky undergraduate and post-graduate programs. He graduated in 1962. Miller served in Fort Knox and then Fort Jackson, South Carolina. He took a year off from school because he was required to serve at least six months of active duty. He was a part of the Medical Corp. Law school ; University of Kentucky. College of Law College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; Military service, Voluntary--United States. 42.644692, -83.145301 17 University of Kentucky http://jackson.armylive.dodlive.mil Fort Jackson Training Base Website 2560 Jewish life on the University of Kentucky campus Um, when I was a senior, I was president of the fraternity. Miller talks about being president of his fraternity, as well as its location and what social life was like. He also talks about being involved in Hillel. Fraternities ; Fraternity president ; Hillel College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. 38.030516, -84.511271 17 123 State Street, Lexington, Kentucky. Location of the fraternity house. 3287 Involvement in Jewish communal life How would you say your time in--at UK and also in ZBT, uh, impacted the way you thought about your Jewishness? Miller thinks back to how he was only really involved with Jewish events on campus. He also discusses how he was president of the congregation as well as an advisor to the youth group while he was a student. Discrimination ; Judaism ; Prayer Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. 17 http://www.zbt.org Zeta Beta Tau Website 4194 Impact of race relations So, you talked a lot about these experiences as, as leading the youth and this kind of impactful experience of watching D.C. burn. Miller talks about how their maid Emma was Black, but they never called her maid. She was treated very respectfully and most of the time they would talk about different issues. He also goes into detail about how growing up Jewish has made him look at the larger picture in life. Civil rights ; Jewish ; Maids African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; United States--Race relations. 38.907192, -77.036871 17 Washington, D.C. 4706 Advice to Jewish students at UK today Do you have any advice you'd give to Jewish students at UK today? Miller's advice to current Jewish students consists of bringing back the fraternity, as well as keeping any Jewish organizations on campus alive. Fraternity ; Greek life ; Hillel College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; University of Kentucky 38.039712, -84.495076 17 Current location of the Hillel House http://kyhillel.org UK's Hillel website Oral History Jack Miller was born in Lexington, Kentucky. His family originated from Germany. Miller's family opened a general store on the corner of Main street and Broadway. Starbucks is located there today. The store was a general store opened sometime in the 1870s. Jack also operated a law firm after he graduated in 1962. Miller discusses how and why his family put up a Christmas tree even though they were heavily involved in Temple life. He also mentions the divide between the Temple and the Synagogue. He was also a part of the first B'nai Mitzvah group, however, this didn't occur until later in life. Miller also discusses his relationship with Rabbi Grafman, one of the seven clergy men to sign the " ; Letter to Birmingham Jail," ; to Martin Luther King, which was written on April 16, 1963. Miller discusses how he attended the University of Kentucky undergraduate and post-graduate programs. Miller talks about being president of his fraternity, as well as its location and what social life was like. He also talks about being involved in Hillel. He graduated in 1962. Miller served in Fort Knox and then Fort Jackson, South Carolina. He took a year off from school because he was required to serve at least six months of active duty. He was a part of the Medical Corp. FERNHEIMER: For official purposes, uh, today is August 31st, 2015. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I am associate professor of writing, rhetoric, digital studies and director of Jewish studies. And it' ; s my great honor and pleasure to be here today with Jack Miller. Um, and from this point forward, I will ask you some questions, which I know we' ; ve already talked about, either on the car ride or on other occasions. But-- MILLER: --yeah, and-- FERNHEIMER: --please forgive me for asking them again. MILLER: No problem. FERNHEIMER: What was your name at birth? MILLER: Jack--uh, you want middle name? FERNHEIMER: Sure. MILLER: Jack Lee Miller. FERNHEIMER: And when and where were you born? MILLER: I was born here in Lexington, uh, November 29, 1935. FERNHEIMER: And what were your parents' ; names and occupations? MILLER: Uh, my mother was Beatrice [Fromberg?] Miller. And, uh, she just was a housewife. And--uh, not just, but she was a housewife. (laughs) And, uh, my father is, uh--his--he went by the name I period J period Miller. But it was actually [Isadore?] Jacob, Junior. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And he was? MILLER: He was a lawyer, sorry. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. And did your parents or grandparents' ; names change when they came to the U.S.? MILLER: Well, I know my grandfather' ; s--uh, my--well, my mother' ; s family did not change their name. FERNHEIMER: The Frombergs? MILLER: The Fromberg--yeah, it' ; s, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And do you know where they came from and when? MILLER: Uh, my grandfather--my--well, on my mother' ; s side, uh, my grandfather' ; s great grandfather, uh, was--uh, came from Germany. Uh, but his name' ; s--was Fromberg at the time. And, to be honest with you, I don' ; t know when, uh, my father' ; s family came to this country. FERNHEIMER: And they were Millers? MILLER: They were Millers, I' ; m sure. But they go back at least three generations I know of. Miller didn' ; t, uh--in Cincinnati. FERNHEIMER: Do you--so, three generations of Millers in Cincinnati? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And so that was your--your father, I.J., his father-- MILLER: Father was, uh, the same thing. Isadore Jacob Miller. FERNHEIMER: And one before that, as well? MILLER: I think his name was, uh, Isaac, I think, the one beforehand was, uh--and I' ; m--I--not really exactly positive. FERNHEIMER: And were they all lawyers? MILLER: No, none of ' ; em were lawyers except ------(??) my father. Uh, my grandfather--uh, my father' ; s father came to Lexington, uh, from Cincinnati right after the Civil War, uh, in the late 1870s, I guess it was. And, uh, had a store, uh, which was then--it was called Miller Brothers, and it was on the corner of Main Street and Broadway, here. Here in Lexington. FERNHEIMER: Right where the Starbucks is now? MILLER: Right where Starbucks is today, yes. FERNHEIMER: And what kind of goods did they sell? MILLER: It was sort of a general kind of store, I think. FERNHEIMER: And they established--so, that was since the 1870s? He started it right away when he moved here? MILLER: Yeah, uh, I think he--he--he--I think he came here to work for somebody--uh, I cannot tell you who he worked for. But, uh, pretty much after they first came here is just when he and--and--and he brought his brother down here. His brother--name was Benjamin. And, uh, uh, he passed away, apparently quite young, uh, and never was married. Um, I' ; m told. (laughs) And I' ; ve never seen any proof of it, but I' ; m told that after he passed away, uh, some other relatives, uh, donated money to, uh, the St. Joseph Hospital in his--for a room in his name. FERNHEIMER: Huh. MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: St. Joseph' ; s here in Lexington? MILLER: Here in Lexington, yeah. It was then probably on Second Street. FERNHEIMER: But you haven' ; t found the room. MILLER: No, it--uh, I--I threaten periodically to--to go by the hospital and see if--you know, whatever happened to it or--if--if anything. I--you know, I don' ; t know. I' ; ve never--I never have. I' ; ve--I' ; ve heard that for--you know, for a long time. But, uh, uh, I' ; ve never really done anything personally to-- FERNHEIMER: To follow up? MILLER: To follow up on it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: And I don' ; t know if any of my relatives have done that either, to be truthful. FERNHEIMER: So, would have been in Benjamin Miller' ; s name? MILLER: Uh, yes. FERNHEIMER: If it existed? And do you--you--do you know why he died or how he died? MILLER: No, I don' ; t. FERNHEIMER: Oh. MILLER: No, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you know when? MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And the store was started roughly in 1870. How long did it last? MILLER: You know, there--I' ; m not--I' ; m--you know, I' ; m--I' ; m terrible--I' ; m really not--not sure. But it was for--apparently, like, good length of time. Uh, you know, I hadn' ; t mentioned to you, but the--and you had talked--someplace in there, you were--mentioned the--talking about maybe discrimination. Uh, there' ; s a story, uh, in the Lexington newspaper at the time-- FERNHEIMER: The Herald Leader? MILLER: Yeah. Well, what--or whatever it was called at the time, I can' ; t remember. Um, where--(laughs)--uh, at Christmas--but that year, it happened to fall on a Sunday. And, uh, the people in the store went out and--to the needy children and gave them all numbers, or had them pick numbers. And, uh, so--for presents on Christmas day. And, uh, apparently, uh, the--number of drunks, uh, picketed and--the store and caused all kinds of--of, uh, uh, noise about them being open on Sunday, even though the--the purpose of it was to give away, uh, gifts to the underprivileged children for Christmas. FERNHEIMER: Huh. MILLER: Uh, and the--the article, what--in the paper was sort of a tongue-in-cheek type of--of an article. It' ; s a--I guess we would say it today, it was sort of sarcastic. (laughs) You know? And--in relation to, uh--I mean, it was--it was supportive. But, you know, it came across--you know, it started out somewhere--of the--you know, how they were--you know, the evil Jews were, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Were open on Sunday? MILLER: Open on Sundays. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Huh. Well, do you have any idea what year that was? MILLER: No, just--I-- FERNHEIMER: Do you have the article? MILLER: Yeah, I' ; ve got it someplace at home. FERNHEIMER: Wonderful. We might follow up with you if that' ; s possible, to-- MILLER: Yeah, oh, sure, no problem. FERNHEIMER: Or, if we can' ; t find it through the search engine-- MILLER: Oh, I' ; m sure I can find it someplace. FERNHEIMER: Do you have siblings? MILLER: I had a--one brother. Well, actually, I had two brothers. One died before I was born. Uh, and, uh, then I had a--a younger brother, uh, Bob. Robert. And he passed away, also. FERNHEIMER: How old was--was--how much younger than you was he? MILLER: He was two and a half years younger than I am. FERNHEIMER: And when did he pass? I' ; m sorry. MILLER: Seventy-seven, something like that, I think. FERNHEIMER: Oh. MILLER: He had cancer. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And-- MILLER: No, it wasn' ; t ' ; 77. Maybe ' ; 97. FERNHEIMER: Okay. I was going to say, you were pretty young then. MILLER: Yeah, no, it was-- FERNHEIMER: He would' ; ve been really young. MILLER: No, no, but-- FERNHEIMER: --um-- MILLER: --but I' ; m not--I' ; m not--I' ; m terrible about remembering years. I' ; m just-- FERNHEIMER: Oh, that' ; s okay. Um, so, you grew up here, in town, hmm? MILLER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood and what it was like to grow up in Lexington? MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And where' ; d you go to school? MILLER: Well, I went to, uh, what then was University School, which was part of the university. It' ; s where the Taylor Education Building is. FERNHEIMER: Oh, yeah. MILLER: Uh, I went to kindergarten there. Uh, was an all-day kindergarten. We took a nap, and they had a--a, uh--like, a courtyard, and it had a log cabin in it. So, it was--it was a--and I--and we took a nap. They had cots for us to take naps on. And then, uh, for elementary school, which is--in those days, first through sixth grade, uh, I went to, uh, [Kendrick?] School, which is--which became [Julia Ewing?], who had been the principal when--when, uh, I was there, and probably had been the only principal from the time that the school started until--' ; til then. I don' ; t know, but--uh, you know, but she' ; d been there for many years. And then, after I got out of that, I went to, uh, back to U. High, University High School, from seventh grade, and graduated from there. FERNHEIMER: And what--what was your experiences in elementary and high school like? MILLER: Just, you know, I think--yeah, like any other normal person. Um, we, uh--one of my friends' ; father, uh, started a basketball team for us at--at [Kenwick?], uh, when we were in the sixth grade. And, uh, uh, so, that--you know, we--we had a group of us that played basketball, and probably--ten or twelve of us. I don' ; t know how many people were on it, but, uh, it was fun. And, uh, then, when I went to U. High, it was, you know, everybody was just--it was a small school. We had thirty-six people in our graduating class. FERNHEIMER: Wow. MILLER: Uh, and I think, for the most part, probably all of us went to school straight through ------(??) came to town and--and started there if somebody dropped out, because they--they had to limit the number of people that they would take in, so--and in those days, it was the only, uh, school that had student teachers. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. MILLER: Uh, they didn' ; t have it in the--in the public school system. FERNHEIMER: And where--where was U.--was U. High right on-- MILLER: It was--it-- FERNHEIMER: --campus? MILLER: Yes. Well, it was in the Taylor Education Building. FERNHEIMER: Also in the Taylor-- MILLER: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --Education Building. MILLER: Um, the--the one side was for the elementary school, and the--as you' ; re facing the building, the left side was for junior--junior high and high school. FERNHEIMER: And did you live in the Kendrick neighborhood when you were growing up? Um-- MILLER: Kendrick neighborhood, yes. Lived on Holiday Road. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Which backs up to what is now the Idle Hour--in those days, it was the Ashland Country Club. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. MILLER: And, uh, [Curley R. Bradley?] owned it. He was a horse--horse man. And, uh, everybody could belong, you know? It didn' ; t--there was no discrimination about membership. FERNHEIMER: When it was Ashland. MILLER: When it was Ashland. Then Curley Bradley died, uh, they sold it to the people who started the--who made it the Idle Hour Country Club, which is what it still is now. But, uh, in--in those days, uh, it was, uh, there--no Jews were allowed. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: To Idle Hour, or-- MILLER: To Idle Hour, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was your--were your family members when it was still Ashland? MILLER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, our house backed up to the country club. I mean, we used to say that my dog was the only Jewish person that ever went over there. (laughter) ' ; Cause--' ; cause she would go over and grab--the putting green was right behind our house, and she' ; d go over and grab a golf ball and come running home with it. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Uh--(laughs)--well, can you tell me a little bit about your parents' ; relationship to Judaism? MILLER: Well, they, uh-- FERNHEIMER: When you were growing up? MILLER: Were they what? FERNHEIMER: Your parents' ; relationship to Judaism while you were growing up? MILLER: Well, uh, my grandfather-- FERNHEIMER: Which one? MILLER: --was one of the founders of the--of the temple. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: And, uh, he never--he never was an officer, but he was one of the founders of it. Uh, my father, uh, became president of the temple at--you know, as time went on. And, uh, my mother was--(laughs)--she--she, uh, was a member of sisterhood. And, uh, she was in charge of selling the sisterhood calendars forever. I mean, she did it until she--' ; til she couldn' ; t do anything anymore. Uh, I mean, that' ; s what she did for--you know, that was her job. And, uh, we were--(laughs)--I don' ; t know how to phrase this, but we were not traditional in the standpoint of--of, uh, of, uh Jewish--Jewishness. Uh, we had a Christmas tree. Uh, and, uh--until--until my--my brother, who ultimately became president of the National Federation of Temple Youth--until he became--became active in that. Um, uh, we had a Christmas tree. And--and he insisted that they stop doing it, which they did. But, uh, growing up, we always had a Christmas tree, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And did you call it a Christmas tree or did you call it a Hanukah bush? MILLER: No, we called it a Christmas tree, uh, uh, and I--and I know that you' ; re aware of--of my relationship with Rabbi [Grafman?]. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Uh, but-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m going to ask you a few questions about that later. MILLER: Yeah, I know, and I just--uh, but I--it--this sort of falls into that, because he would not--he would not come to the house during that season. FERNHEIMER: Because of the tree? MILLER: Because of the Christmas tree. Uh, you know, they might talk on the telephone, but he would not come to the house, because he wouldn' ; t--didn' ; t want to--you know, didn' ; t want to be there with it. So, uh, you know, that was never talked about. But that was, uh, you know, that was a fact. FERNHEIMER: And did you--when you were a child, did you know that this was unusual? Or was this just normal? MILLER: I think it was more normal than it was unusual. Um, you know, in those days, uh, there were pretty strictly two congregations that were separate and apart, and the people who belonged, for the most part, were separate and apart. There were a number of people who--however, who belonged to both congregations. Uh, but for the most part, socially, interaction, there was none. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And this was between the temple and the synagogue? MILLER: Yeah, and, uh, you know, and, uh--which, you know, to look back on it, it was a shame. But that was--I mean, they--you know, there was--there was a--at--at one point in time, there was discussion about the--the, uh, consolidation of the two institutions. And, uh, I think probably the--the worship on--or the ways of worship on the High Holidays was probably one of the, uh, drawbacks for--uh, the inability to even, you know, logically or--or, you know, uh, realistically, uh, consider it. FERNHEIMER: Because they were so different? MILLER: Yeah, ' ; cause they were so different. Um, but, um, as far as my upbringing, uh, you know, most of my friends were--were members--their parents were members of the--the temple. Um, uh, I did not know very many, if any, of the kids of my age that were at the synagogue. I don' ; t--tell you the truth, I don' ; t even know how many there were-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --except those whose parents belonged to both institutions. Uh, I know that you' ; ve talked to at least one or maybe more of the people who were around at the time. But, uh, uh, they were--you know, most of those people, I think, just--uh, belonged to both congregations. Um, but times have changed. (laughs) And--and--and I think for the better. FERNHEIMER: In terms of those relationships? MILLER: In terms of--of--of interaction and--and, you know, congeniality, and--and doing things together. Uh, I think that' ; s amazing. I think it' ; s wonderful. FERNHEIMER: Why do you think there was such a divide then, while you were growing up? MILLER: I think that the--most--main part of it probably was that the temple was what is--is known as classical Reform. And, um, we had a choir, we had an organ. Um, you know, you--you interviewed Harriet, and--but she--she sang in the choir. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: And, uh, uh, very little Hebrew was read at the temple. Um, I' ; m sure there' ; s some--you know, I--you know, I can' ; t sit here and remember, but I think that--you know, some of the prayers were, of course, in Hebrew. But, uh, it was always followed by the English transliteration. Uh, uh, and--and we had--when I grew up, we had no bar or bat mitzvahs at the temple. Um-- FERNHEIMER: Were you confirmed? Did they do-- MILLER: I was--we were confirmed, uh, and in--in my later life, uh, after having gotten married, uh, uh, we--we--I was part of one of the first B' ; nai mitzvah groups-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --that had a bar mitzvah, uh, which I' ; m glad I did. Um-- FERNHEIMER: When did you do that? MILLER: Uh, I can' ; t remember. In--in--in, you know, in--in later life. (laughter) It was after I got married. So, you know, it was--it was probably--it was probably-- FERNHEIMER: In the ' ; 80s or something? MILLER: Yeah, something like--I was probably around--fifties, and--you know, uh, there were--think three of us in our--that group. Two women and me. Uh, and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And you did it at the temple? MILLER: Huh? FERNHEIMER: Did you do it at the temple, here? MILLER: At the temple, yeah. Uh, Joe Miller, uh, who is deceased, uh, [Sammy, is his?]--Sammy--you know, she was Miller, then she was--well, her--her, uh--[so, is?]--Joe was her brother. And [Frida?]--I mean, Sam--uh, Frida--uh, Fanny and--and Sherman were his parents and, uh, uh, they--he had the bar mitzvah, uh, and--and again, I--I don' ; t remember ------(??) but-- FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. Uh, so, growing up, confirmation was the big thing. MILLER: Confirmation was the big thing. And, uh, we did have post-confirmation, also. FERNHEIMER: How-- MILLER: And there were--there were three of us in my confirmation class. FERNHEIMER: You and who else? MILLER: [Leslie Abberson?], who lives in Louisville, and [Jonas Wheel?], and I--I don' ; t know where Jonas lives nowadays. FERNHEIMER: And they' ; re both men? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Leslie, I' ; m not always sure. MILLER: And then the class before me was two years before, uh, our confirmation class. And, if I' ; m not mistaken, they had three, also. It was Earl Levy, [Alan Bloomfield, and Myra?] Michaels. I think that' ; s all they had in that class. So, there weren' ; t that--I mean, you know, there was--there were years in between that, uh, there was no confirmation, because they just--they--the population was not such that, uh, uh, you know, they filled in every year. I mean, sometimes they did, but it' ; s unusual. FERNHEIMER: Pretty small class. MILLER: Yeah, small classes. FERNHEIMER: Can you describe-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --aside from the Christmas tree, uh--(laughter)--what Judaism was like in your family? What was the role of Jewish tradition in-- MILLER: Well-- FERNHEIMER: --in your childhood, or what-- MILLER: --so, we-- FERNHEIMER: --your parents taught you-- MILLER: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --little bit? MILLER: No, they didn' ; t talk much about it. Uh, we would go to--of course, went to high holiday services. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: My father was an usher, all the time, so he didn' ; t sit in for services very much, uh, except for--when--for, uh ------(??) he would come in for that. Uh, but for the most part, he was the usher, and they stayed outside, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was that by choice on his part? MILLER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh, they would sit out and they would sit around and--you know, the men, they' ; d sit around and they' ; d talk and they smoke and, you know. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Cigarettes or pipes? MILLER: Cigarettes. Cigarettes. (laughs) But, um, you know, and that' ; s--it--it--when I went to--and I went--you know, this is going back about--about--about--doing that services, um, uh, I would not--go for the high--during the day for the High Holidays. I would go to school, uh, and, uh, you know, I can' ; t say that most of the kids did, but I--' ; cause I don' ; t--I didn' ; t ask and I don' ; t know. But, uh, uh, my guess is they went to school, too. And we--(laughs)--uh, I was at U. High, and we would walk from--sometimes from--we' ; d walk downtown to catch the bus to go home. Uh, other times, the parents would pick us up at, uh--we' ; d walk downtown, and we would go down Limestone and, uh, we would pass, uh, Maxwell Street, which is where the synagogue was at the time. And, uh, we would always see the old gentlemen sitting at the counter in the, uh, drugstore, drinking coffee and Cokes during the holidays, too, so--(laughter)--you know, I--I--you know, [it, like?]--it was kind of tough for the--uh, these--I would think for the older gentlemen to sit during the whole services, and even--even for Yom Kippur, they would, uh, be over there sometime, too, so, uh--you know, and we would know who they were. I mean, you know, it' ; s--it' ; s not as if we didn' ; t know who they were, but, uh--uh, so, it was--it was--it was fun. I mean, you know, this--the only--I only had one--one instance where I would say that there was a showing of bias, and that is that, uh, one--one fellah who I always thought was a--you know, a friend. You know, friendly, anyway, called me a dirty Jew. FERNHEIMER: What was the context? MILLER: I don' ; t know, something over a softball game or something. And I got into a fight with him. And he never said it again. And, uh, you know--but that' ; s the only time that I--I remember anyone ever overtly saying anything about, you know, religion. I mean, they didn' ; t talk about their religion, uh, you know, at least in front of me, uh-- FERNHEIMER: How old were you at the time, when this happened? This was high school? College? MILLER: Yeah, it was in high school. FERNHEIMER: And-- MILLER: And he' ; s no longer living--(laughs)--the person that--he got killed boxing in the Army. FERNHEIMER: Oh! (laughter) That' ; s a difficult-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --way to go. MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, are there any other vivid memories from your childhood that you' ; d want to share, uh-- MILLER: Well, I--you know, I--I think one of the--and I--I' ; ve mentioned him again--before, but I--I think probably one of the, uh, emotional losses that I felt was when Rabbi Grafman left Lexington. And I--and, uh, granted, I was only in the first grade, uh, but he left--he left Lexington on Pearl Harbor Day. And, uh, uh, he would come back periodically, uh, just to, you know, visit. And he would always stay at our house when he came back. And he was, you know, just a--a pleasant, uh, person to be around. I mean, I--uh, at least my recollection--I don' ; t--you know, I--I didn' ; t have him as a rabbi, as such, but, uh, you know--uh, but his daughter and I were very good friends, and I have--got a picture of the two of us in the first grade, dressed in--I guess as Mexicans or some--exactly what we were. It was for--so, I was--I don' ; t remember what it was for, even. Probably Halloween or--yeah, I don' ; t know what it was for, but, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And how did you--did you come to be close with her through school or because-- MILLER: Yeah, we went to school-- FERNHEIMER: Were your parents close or-- MILLER: We--well, both, I think. But we were at Kendrick School together, uh, you know, and, of course, I knew her before, you know, hand, because we' ; d be at their house and they would be at ours and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, your parents had a kind of close relationship with the rabbi. MILLER: Yes, yeah. No, and of course, in those days, uh, as much as you can be close. And we didn' ; t have--you know, uh, we didn' ; t have, uh, rabbis very long. Uh, our--we would get-- FERNHEIMER: Why is that? MILLER: Well, we--' ; cause we would get them, usually, out of HUC [Hebrew Union College], and Cincinnati was the only school of HUC at the time. And, uh, they would be here for two, three years, and then they would get, you know, jobs either paying better or in high--bigger congregations, and--and they would move on. Uh, but one of--(laughs)--and this goes up to at least--up in time, but, uh, the--the Union had biennials every--uh, convention. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Regional or national conventions every two years. And we would always have our, uh, former rabbis to a cocktail party at the--at the biennials. So, they stayed in--you know, we stayed in good terms with almost all of them. Uh, but, uh, you know, that didn' ; t always ------(??) I mean, you know, there was--they weren' ; t here long enough to--to--for people to get upset with them too much. So, uh-- FERNHEIMER: But obviously, he was here long enough for you to feel a real loss when-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --he left. MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about your connection with Rabbi Grafman, uh-- MILLER: Well, I mean, I was--that was pretty much the connection, you know? It was--it was, you know, through the families. Uh, I--you know, I' ; d--and I know that you have seen the article, uh, or, oh, the--the letter from the Birmingham jail-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --uh, that he was--you know, he went to Birmingham when he left here, and stayed there until he died. Uh, but he was one of the seven clergy to sign that letter to, uh, Dr. King. And, uh, I always thought that was sort of cool, you know, that, uh, he was--he was ahead of his time in the reform movement, I think, uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: In terms of the way he identified with-- MILLER: Yeah, I--yeah, those--it--on a--on a, uh, cultural level, he was much more liberal than--than necessarily the movement was, [I guess?]. FERNHEIMER: Do you mean specifically vis-à-vis race relations, or in a different way? MILLER: In a--in--not relig--I mean, not religiously, but in--uh, you know, from the standpoint of--of cultural, uh, aspects of life. Uh, and probably was ahead of his time in the South, in particular. Uh, you know, because that' ; s--you know, the South is not much for, you know, the integration movement, so, uh--you know, I always thought very highly of him, uh, and-- FERNHEIMER: Do-- MILLER: --uh, like I say, I would see him two or three times after he left here. He--the--' ; cause he would--like, he would stay with us, so I would see him, and we would--we never talked about anything in particular. But, you know, it was just sort of fun to--to, uh, to do that. FERNHEIMER: Were you aware--at--at the time, when you were older and he came back to stay with you--of--of the letter he wrote and its significance? MILLER: No. I didn' ; t even know it until recent--in time--in, yeah, in recent times. FERNHEIMER: And did he talk about things related to race relations in the synagogue or the temple? MILLER: No. No, he just talked--just general talk, you know? He--I mean, he was just a--sort of a down-to-earth person when he wasn' ; t doing his rabbinical stuff, you know? (laughs) And I don' ; t know what he was like doing that, so I--you know, I' ; m--he may have been that way there, too, ' ; cause, you know, like I say, he was there forever, so, uh, couldn' ; t have been too bad. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And did he ever come--not during the holiday season, but did he come to your house for Shabbas, or did you have-- MILLER: No, no. FERNHEIMER: --Shabbat with him? MILLER: No, no. And we didn' ; t--we didn' ; t, uh, do anything special for Shabbat, uh, growing up in--in--you know, it just--you know, was just another day, another meal. FERNHEIMER: Were there family meals around holidays or-- MILLER: In those--in those days for--like, for--uh, uh, Seder, uh-- FERNHEIMER: For Passover? MILLER: For Passover, they, uh--the Seder was at the temple. And, I--you know, my best guess is that there weren' ; t that many that had, uh, you know, second day Seder in--uh, in people' ; s homes. I--you know, I--if they did, I didn' ; t know it. [But?]-- FERNHEIMER: When you went-- MILLER: But the--with the whole--you know, it was pretty much that--it was a congregational-- FERNHEIMER: Seder. MILLER: --thing, yeah. I mean, it--and that was--pretty much most of the people from the congregation were there. FERNHEIMER: How--how many people were in the congregation? Or how many would come for the--that congregational Seder? MILLER: A lot. A lot, you know? I never count--[you know, they?]-- FERNHEIMER: More than a hundred? MILLER: Oh, it wouldn' ; t surprise me. Uh, but then again, I don' ; t know ------(??) you know, how many people even belonged in those days. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: ------(??) belong today, either, but--(laughs)--but, uh, uh, it--you know, everybody knew each other, you know? And, uh, uh, you know, until IBM [International Business Machines Corporation] came to Lexington, uh, there weren' ; t many outsiders. I mean, I say outsiders. I mean, those people who were not either in business or in the professions or farming or whatever in Lexington. I mean, there was--lot of the same people. FERNHEIMER: Lot of locals? MILLER: Lot of locals. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And when did IBM come? MILLER: Fifties, I think. I can' ; t remember. And that was--you know, that was the beginning of industry moving to Lexington. And with that, a number of Jewish people would come--university growing, people would come to university. Uh, VA [Veterans Administration] Hospital brought in, uh, uh, the two top--I can remember--I don' ; t remember age-wise, but the two top people at the VA Hospital were both Jewish. Uh, both of them belonged to the temple, but, uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And so, after you graduated from high school and you went on to study at UK [University of Kentucky]. MILLER: Right. FERNHEIMER: Um-- MILLER: I went to law school at UK, graduated from law school. FERNHEIMER: When did you decide to be a student at UK--(laughter)--and can you tell me a little bit about your experiences? MILLER: There--there wasn' ; t a--there wasn' ; t a decision to be made. That' ; s where I was going to go. (laughter) If I was going anyplace, I was going to University of Kentucky. Um, and, uh, I lived at home. I didn' ; t live in the fraternity--uh, dorm. I didn' ; t--when I joined a fraternity, I didn' ; t live in the fraternity house. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: What did you study? MILLER: Where did I study? FERNHEIMER: What did you study? MILLER: Oh, I studied, uh-- FERNHEIMER: What was your major? MILLER: --well, I majored in political science. Uh, and I always tell people the reason I majored in that was because I had more hours in political science than anything else when I had to decide. (laughs) [So, was?]--um-- FERNHEIMER: It' ; s not that different today. (laughs) MILLER: No. Um, we did have a Jewish professor in political science. FERNHEIMER: Who was that? MILLER: Wish you hadn' ; t asked me that. FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come back to you. MILLER: Yeah, I-- FERNHEIMER: Pretend I didn' ; t. MILLER: But, uh--(laughs)--I--I can still--you know, just a--as an aside and just sort of as a--I mean, he told us one thing, at the end of our--I took economic geography from him, and he said that the--when we were there taking our final, he said, " ; I just want to tell you something before this exam starts." ; He said, " ; When you finish the exam, forget everything that I have taught you, because in two years, it' ; ll all change." ; [You know, and?], uh, I thought that was sort of nice to hear. (laughs) You know? But, uh, I don' ; t--you know, to--to my recollection, he' ; s--uh, he' ; s the only one that I knew that I can think of off the top of my head that was Jewish that was--taught--teaching at UK at the time. FERNHEIMER: And when were you a student? Just for the official record. MILLER: At University of Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: From when to when? From-- MILLER: Oh, I--I started UK in 1953 and graduated in ' ; 57. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: And then I started law school in ' ; 57, and I graduated in ' ; 62, I believe. And the reason, the--so much time is that I went--I' ; d take a year out to go to--I went in the Reserves to six--so, I had to serve six months on active duty, um-- FERNHEIMER: Where did you serve? MILLER: Where? Fort Knox, and then Fort Jackson, South Carolina. And I--and I served--at that time, I was in the Medical Service Corps. FERNHEIMER: What did you do? MILLER: Uh, I took care of the payroll. (laughter) Uh, and--though we had a number of Jewish people in our Reserve unit, uh, uh, Bill [Winniker?] was in it. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: He was also in the fraternity, right? MILLER: No, Bill wasn' ; t. He didn' ; t go to school here. He didn' ; t go to, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Wasn' ; t there a Winniker? Maybe it wasn' ; t the-- MILLER: Jimmy. FERNHEIMER: Jimmy Winniker. MILLER: Jim, yeah. FERNHEIMER: He played football. MILLER: No, he--don' ; t think he--no. FERNHEIMER: No? MILLER: I don' ; t think so. I don' ; t think so. He' ; s big enough to have played football, but I don' ; t think--I--you know, if he did--he was older than us, so-- FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Somebody mentioned Jimmy Winniker, and his parents owned a shoe store? MILLER: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Downtown. MILLER: Downtown. And--and the--one--the person who I--was in confirmation class with, the--Les Aberson, uh, his father--his--it was--his mother was related to the Winnikers, and his father ran the men' ; s store, uh, while the--[Al Winniker?] and boys, I guess. And Jim, and--and their--and their mother, Mary, uh, ran the women' ; s store. FERNHEIMER: What were the stores called? Do you-- MILLER: It was called Winniker' ; s. FERNHEIMER: Winniker' ; s? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And so, they had more than one store? MILLER: Well, there was one store, but they were two-- FERNHEIMER: Two sides? MILLER: Two sides sort of thing, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Where was it located? MILLER: Down Main Street. FERNHEIMER: And, sorry, and so if--we kind of-- MILLER: I know, we jumped around. FERNHEIMER: I jumped around, that was my fault. Um, but you were telling me about your time in college, at UK. Can you tell me a little bit about the fraternity? MILLER: Yeah, I was--uh, I pledged the fraternity, and-- FERNHEIMER: Which one? MILLER: ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau], in--so, in ' ; 52. FERNHEIMER: Who else was in your pledge class? MILLER: Oh, God, wish you--I know Les Aberson was in there. Uh, Bill Golton. Uh, Billy Galton was from--was, uh--think he was from Winchester. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember what his family did-- MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: --in Winchester? MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Golton? G-O-L-- MILLER: G-O-L-T-O-N. FERNHEIMER: --T-O-N? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And Aberson? A-B-E? MILLER: A-B-E-R-S-O-N. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And Les was still here in Lexington? MILLER: No, Les is Louisville. FERNHEIMER: In Louisville. MILLER: Yeah. Uh, well, at least--I think he' ; s--I think he still lives there, but I don' ; t--I' ; m not sure. I haven' ; t seen him in--or talked to him in several years, but, uh--and then, Jerry Josselson. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? MILLER: J-O-S-S-E-L-S-O-N. He' ; s from--he was from Ashland, Kentucky. And I' ; m just trying to--I--I can' ; t--those are the ones that [sprang?]--you know, stick out in my mind. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you remember who your pledge master was? MILLER: (laughs) Was probably Marty. FERNHEIMER: Solomon? MILLER: Yeah, but I' ; m not going to swear to it. But I--probably. (laughter) And--and we did have--just to--just as--just as a side--from when--when--my freshman year, our pledge class kidnapped one of our active members. FERNHEIMER: Oh, really? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Which one? MILLER: George [Spector?], who was from Pittsburgh. FERNHEIMER: And what did you do with George Spector? MILLER: We drove to, uh, Oxford, Ohio, to the University of [Miami?], to the ZBT house there. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Okay. MILLER: And, uh, he got--uh, we took him on a Friday, and got up there Friday evening. And he was--to say he was livid may be an understatement, because George was a big basketball fan. And in those days, you didn' ; t televise basketball games. And he couldn' ; t get back to Lexington to see the basketball game. FERNHEIMER: Oh. MILLER: And he was so unhappy. (laughs) But we spent the weekend up there, [and it was?]--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: And how many--how big was the house in Miami at the time? MILLER: I don' ; t--you know, it--probably about like us. I mean, there weren' ; t that many. FERNHEIMER: How many guys would you say? MILLER: It' ; s hard for me to--I--I wouldn' ; t even guess. I--I can' ; t even tell you how many we had here. Uh, I got--you know, we had a house mother. Her name was Mrs. Miller. FERNHEIMER: Not related. MILLER: Not related. Uh, she was a real pleasure. FERNHEIMER: And how old was she, living in the house with these young-- MILLER: Uh, [maybe?]-- FERNHEIMER: Was she an older woman or a younger woman? MILLER: Eh, she wasn' ; t young, no. She was, you know, probably older. You know, middle-aged, above, but, uh, she would have dinner with us. And we' ; d only have dinner there. I guess--you know, I think they only had dinner. I can' ; t remember if they had breakfast or not, but probably not. FERNHEIMER: And would you eat there, even though you lived at home? MILLER: I would eat dinner there sometime. Um, when I was a senior, I was president of the fraternity. FERNHEIMER: So, that was in 1953? MILLER: Six--' ; 57. FERNHEIMER: So, six-- MILLER: Fifty-six, ' ; 57, ' ; cause I graduated in ' ; 57, so, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And what were part of your--so, did you live in the house then? Or no? MILLER: No, but we had a president' ; s room. FERNHEIMER: Uh, that' ; s why I was asking. MILLER: Uh, but--(laughs)--since I wasn' ; t going to live there, some--it got, uh, preempted by one of the other fellahs that--you know, probably Jerry, uh, Josselson probably took it over. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you remember how many brothers were there when you were president? MILLER: We had--there was one other fellah from Lexington that was there, was, uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Aside from Les? MILLER: Uh, yeah. Um--(laughs)--Sidney--not Sidney. Casey Newman. FERNHEIMER: Casey Newman. MILLER: He' ; s from here. He was from Lexington. Uh, you know, I can' ; t remember--he was--he' ; d--I can' ; t remember if he was one of the--if he was on--related to the Rosenbergs or--or not. I' ; m--I' ; m not con--I think so. I think--yeah, I think he may be a cousin of Joyce' ; s. Joyce [Michener?]. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Uh, I think. Um, but I' ; d say we probably had fifteen. FERNHEIMER: Fifteen brothers? MILLER: Probably, at least. FERNHEIMER: How many, roughly, lived in the house? MILLER: Well, we had three floors. Uh, lived at 123 State Street, the infamous State Street. (laughter) Uh, now it' ; s infamous with the basketball--burning of the cars and all that kind of stuff, but, uh, wasn' ; t in those days, was very-- FERNHEIMER: Couches. Couches, I think, right? MILLER: Huh? FERNHEIMER: That' ; s what they like to burn now. Couches? MILLER: Couches and cars and whatever, yeah. (laughs) Anything that they can get hold of [that lights?]. FERNHEIMER: No couches burning back then? MILLER: No, no couches burning back then, and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: What was your typical celebration, or how did--did you guys go to the games to watch? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And tell me-- MILLER: And football. FERNHEIMER: --about that. What was that like? MILLER: Oh, it was fun. We' ; d go together. And, uh, you know, football, we--we beat Tennessee one year, which is always the last game of the season. And, uh, we stormed--along with--lot of other people, stormed the field at--and tore down the goal post. And, uh, uh, one of the fraternity brothers, uh, uh ------(??) I can' ; t remember--[Pete?] is the younger one. Uh, but, uh, he dated a girl who was a ZTA [Zeta Tau Alpha]. And we tore the pole--the goal post down. And we took it and marched to the sorority house and gave it to them. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: We, as in ZBT? MILLER: Uh-huh. (laughter) Yeah. Four or five of us, maybe six of us, you know? FERNHEIMER: And you brought it to the ZTA house? MILLER: Uh-huh. (laughs) ------(??) FERNHEIMER: And--and how did they receive it? MILLER: Oh, they loved it, yeah. (laughs) You know. FERNHEIMER: And was ZTA mostly Jewish girls? MILLER: [No, um?], no, I don' ; t know if they had any. But, uh-- FERNHEIMER: But just because the one brother had a girlfriend there? MILLER: Yeah. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit more about, um, your social life as a student? Were there other organizations you were involved with, uh-- MILLER: Hillel. FERNHEIMER: Hillel. MILLER: Uh-huh. They would--you know, and--and in--in those days, we had a pretty good number of Jewish students, you know. Uh, lot more than they have now, apparently. Um-- FERNHEIMER: How many students--Jewish students would you say in Hillel? MILLER: Well, I would say we would have twenty or so, or more, to show up for Hillel. They would have, uh, dinner. I would say either once a week--either every Sunday or once a month, I can' ; t remember which one it was. But it was always a Sunday dinner. And everybody would go there for dinner, ' ; cause we didn' ; t have a dinner--Sunday dinner at the fraternity house. FERNHEIMER: Fraternity house? (laughter) MILLER: And we' ; d all go, you know, to--to, uh, Hillel. FERNHEIMER: And so, where did the Hillel dinners take place? MILLER: At temple. FERNHEIMER: At Temple Adath Israel? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And how would you get there? Would you walk or drive or-- MILLER: We' ; d drive. You know, I--I--the--I think almost all of us had cars. Uh, I got my first car when I was a freshman. FERNHEIMER: Yeah? MILLER: And my [eighth?]-- FERNHEIMER: What was it? MILLER: Well, it was a Nash Rambler convertible. FERNHEIMER: A what kind? MILLER: Nash Rambler. FERNHEIMER: What color? MILLER: Blue, I think, but I don' ; t--I don' ; t--that I can' ; t--that I don' ; t remember, but--(laughter)--probably--it was used. Uh, my aunt' ; s second husband had passed away and left me-- FERNHEIMER: The convertible? MILLER: No, left me--couple thousand dollars or something. And it was enough to buy the car. And, uh, so I--you know, I just--I loved it, you know? (laughter) And, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, would you use it to drive to Hillel for-- MILLER: Oh, yeah. FERNHEIMER: --dinners? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And did you bring others with you? MILLER: I' ; m sure I did, yeah. FERNHEIMER: What did--do you recall what they served for dinner? MILLER: I would just--cook meal, I mean, you know, women in the congregation would-- FERNHEIMER: Would make the meal? MILLER: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: So, uh-- MILLER: It--probably once a month, I guess, but I' ; m not going to-- FERNHEIMER: And were there young women who would come, as well? MILLER: Yeah, yeah. So, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was it mostly folks from UK? Or was it also folks from ------(??) MILLER: No, I don' ; t--you know, I don' ; t ever remember anybody from Transylvania. Uh, you know, and I don' ; t know if there was any--to be honest, I don' ; t know if there are even Jewish students at Transylvania at the time, uh-- FERNHEIMER: EKU [Eastern Kentucky University]? Anywhere else? MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay, uh-- MILLER: You know, I' ; m sure that there were, you know, uh, you know, one or two, maybe. But, uh, I don' ; t remember any specific people that were-- FERNHEIMER: Do you remember the names of anyone who used to come-- MILLER: No, [because I wouldn' ; t?] remember there being any, so I--you know, I-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah, or--or just the students who would go to--with you to Hillel? MILLER: Oh, you know, I--you know, the--the ones I' ; ve mentioned, you know? George Spector and Marty Solomon and Early Levy and, uh, I know that you also--done an interview with, uh, Irv [Holsteen?]. FERNHEIMER: Not yet. MILLER: [So, what--or?]--uh, or not ------(??) who was it? Somebody-- FERNHEIMER: [Gene Dubath?]? MILLER: Gene [Dubau?]. Gene Dubau, maybe. Yeah, he was, uh, I think he may have been in Earl' ; s class. I' ; m not even sure. Earl and Marty' ; s. But, uh, uh, they were still here at--you know, when I was a freshman, so, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you remember anything about a Hillel debating society? MILLER: Never heard of it. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Was there one? FERNHEIMER: The--apparently there was one. Harriet Rose mentioned it in her-- MILLER: Oh, must have been-- FERNHEIMER: --interview. MILLER: --back in--it must have been back in her day. FERNHEIMER: And--(laughter)--I' ; d never heard of such a thing, so I' ; m trying to find out more information about it. MILLER: Never heard of it. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Not here, not at Miami, not-- MILLER: Not anywhere. I mean, it' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, so when you were president, what were the kinds of things that you had to do? Were you involved with other sororities or fraternities on campus or-- MILLER: Oh, I--I' ; m sure that we probably belonged to the inter-fraternity council. So, we would have had some connection, if they had meetings. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Did you have to go? As the president? MILLER: I' ; m sure. I' ; m sure. But it' ; s not something that just strikes--you know, that stands out in my mind about it. It--but I' ; m--I' ; m--you know, I feel certain that we did, you know? I don' ; t--we would--you know, it--it' ; s a--as a--we did a lot of things that--you know, as--just as a group. I mean, we' ; d go out and have a drink here and there and, you know, and--and, uh, uh, we' ; d have parties at the fraternity house, often. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Like, once a week or-- MILLER: Eh, maybe once a week, maybe once every couple weeks. But we would have them fairly regularly. FERNHEIMER: Who did you all invite to the parties? MILLER: The girls. (laughter) You know? FERNHEIMER: What girls? From-- MILLER: [Well, Kitty?], you know. There was a Kitty somebody, but I can' ; t remember her name. I just remember Kitty, now. Uh, Janice-- FERNHEIMER: Doctorow? MILLER: --uh, Doctorow. Uh, um, probably, uh, I guess Kay Frankel, probably, was--[I don' ; t know?]--she' ; s not here any--in Lexington anymore. She lives up in Oxford, Ohio. She' ; s in a--or Miami, someplace up there. She' ; s in a--assisted living place up there. She got a son that lives up there. FERNHEIMER: Was it mostly girls from the Phi Sigma Sigma-- MILLER: Yeah, yeah. FERNHEIMER: --sorority? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Were there other girls? Non-Jewish girls? MILLER: No. Well, the--you know, there' ; s--occasion--I mean, like, [Shelley Janowicz?], that' ; s his name. I mean, he had the--one girlfriend. I think he' ; s not a--longer living. Pete, his younger brother, is. Every once in a while, I' ; ll see him on Facebook. (laughs) I don' ; t ever communicate with him, but he' ; s in--he' ; s in Florida. FERNHEIMER: He' ; s in Florida. MILLER: Uh, we were--you know, I was--I was friends with--and, you know, with at least one of the football players. Uh, not Jewish. Uh, we would-- FERNHEIMER: Who is that? MILLER: I can' ; t remember, but three--there were three of us that would take French together. FERNHEIMER: Fraternity brothers or football player-- MILLER: One football player and then another fraternity brother and myself. And we' ; d--we' ; d sit ------(??) we had Pierre [Ship?], we used to call him. He was the French teacher. We always took him. He was strange, uh--(laughs)--and we would sit in the back of the classroom and make fun of him and--(laughs)--you know? But, uh--and then, uh, another one ------(??) [with the?]--Lou Michaels was--football player. And there was another Jewish fellah, and I can' ; t remember who it was. And I--the three of us, Lou and--and the two of us took the economic geography course together. And the final exam, uh, two of us sat here and then Lou Michaels would sit in between us. (laughs) And he would sit there and look one side and look at the other. And the professor came back saying, " ; Now, look, fellahs, you can' ; t cheat." ; Say, " ; We' ; re not doing anything!" ; He said, " ; Well, just don' ; t do it." ; (laughs) You know? The--Lou looked at us, he said, " ; He caught you cheating, did he?" ; (laughter) Nothing about him, but, you know, us, he--you know, we were cheating off of him! (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Were there consequences? MILLER: No. He--I don' ; t think he got any notes. I don' ; t think he read it--could read anything, but he kept looking. FERNHEIMER: He was trying. MILLER: He was trying. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How would you say your time in--at UK and also in ZBT, uh, impacted the way you thought about your Jewishness? MILLER: Well, I don' ; t really think it had much of an impact, as such. Uh, you know, it was--you know, from a--a social standpoint, uh, we didn' ; t, for the most part, socialize with the non-Jewish people on campus. So, I guess to some degree that--I mean, I--I don' ; t want to say that was discrimination, ' ; cause that may have been just us--maybe not feeling that we wanted to. I mean, I don' ; t--I don' ; t think that there was anything that stopped us from doing it. But I don' ; t--you know, I didn' ; t ever go to any other fraternity function for any other fraternity or--or sorority. Um, I don' ; t remember anybody particularly talking about socializing with anybody outside of the fraternity. Um, but that' ; s pretty much what we did. I mean, we--you know, and we would say a prayer, you know, before meals, you know? Uh, I don' ; t know if we did the, uh, uh, prayer after the service--after meals or not. I' ; d--my guess is probably not. But, uh, uh--you know, and I don' ; t know what--to be honest, uh--most of--many of the people--I have no idea, uh, what branch of--of, uh, of Judaism anybody, uh, practiced. Uh, you know, and I don' ; t know if any of the meals were served, uh, would pass muster for kashrut. Uh, I would doubt that there was pork served. But then, I' ; m not going to swear to that, either. But, uh, it' ; s--that' ; s--it' ; s not--that was nothing that I ever--was ever concerned about, uh-- FERNHEIMER: That would--that wasn' ; t part of your realm as president? MILLER: Or--or--or in life in general, you know? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: And, you know, again, until--getting married, you know, that--got to see a different perspective, which is not bad, is good. And, you know, we don' ; t serve anything that' ; s, you know, ham or pork or any of that kind of stuff at our house. And, you know, uh, (laughs) I had a fellah that practiced law in the same office where I was originally. Used to always have a Christmas party. And, uh, he would always have country ham. And, uh, I would eat it. And somebody came up to me and said, " ; Jack," ; he said, " ; I thought you were Jewish and you weren' ; t supposed to eat ham." ; I said, " ; It' ; s not. I blessed it and made it corned beef." ; (laughter) So, you know, it--but, uh, as far as, you know, college time was concerned, I--you know, I--I feel certain that there were, uh, at least Conservative branched individuals whose family belonged to that--or, you know, uh, so--I mean, I know Earl' ; s parents belonged to both congregations. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Um, Earl' ; s--Earl had a sister--or has a sister, Bobbi, who was younger. Younger than me. And, uh, uh, you know, I--my recollection is that she was very much--you know, just temple-wise, you know, uh, Earl is--he' ; s--now more--is mostly synagogue, but I--but, you know, growing up, he belonged to-- FERNHEIMER: [To both?]? MILLER: --both, yeah. Um, and, uh, at one point in time, um--I hate to talk--keep talking about myself, but, uh, one of the ------(??) FERNHEIMER: Well, that' ; s why I have you here. (laughs) MILLER: Well, one of--one of the things that I did for many years, uh, was--I was advisor of the temple youth group. FERNHEIMER: From when to when? MILLER: God, I can' ; t remember when I started and when I ended. But Bill [Leffler?] was president--was rabbi when I ended it, because--(laughs)--I was president of the congregation at the time, and--and, uh, he wasn' ; t on our [add?] list at the time. And, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, you were president of the congregation and the advisor to the youth group-- MILLER: Oh, yeah. FERNHEIMER: --at the same time? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Wow. MILLER: And I was also adviser for the whole region of--of the Ohio Valley Federation of Temple Youth. I was advisor for the whole region, as well, uh, as well as local. But I did the whole region, too. And, um, um, forgot why--where I was going with this, but, um, Earl--uh, Earl belonged--uh, belonged to [the--I think Bobbi?] belonged to the youth group. We also--at that time, the synagogue did not have a youth group. Uh, there--there was, at one point in time, a--uh, what is the-- FERNHEIMER: USY [United Synagogue Youth]? MILLER: USY--well, no, it wasn' ; t USY. It was the, uh, AZA [Aleph Zadik Aleph], or BBYO [B' ; nai B' ; rith Youth Organization], actually. They had a BBYO, uh, at one point in time. But it went by the way of all things. Uh, but, uh, we had members, uh, whose parents only belonged to the synagogue, who we allowed to join the temple youth group. Uh, and as a matter of fact, I, uh, was instrumental at one point in time in getting, uh, permission from the board to allow, uh, non-temple members to be officers in the youth group. FERNHEIMER: Mm. MILLER: Um, and, uh, you know, and people you might know. [Alan Stine?]-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --and Terri and Ricki, all three belonged to the, uh, youth group. Joyce Michener belonged. Um, I' ; m--and that--those stick out in my mind as--as, uh--and I' ; m sure there were others, too. But, uh--and there were two--there were two programs that stay out in my mind that I think--and I' ; ve tried to get them to institute it again sometime. Uh, and that one just made me remember it. Uh, I was in the county attorney' ; s office at the time, also, and, uh, I arranged, uh, with, uh, some police officers--or a police officer, anyway, uh, with the knowledge of parents, but not of individuals--well, yeah, some individuals, that they came to a youth group meeting and arrested Alan-- FERNHEIMER: Oh! MILLER: --at the youth group meeting. FERNHEIMER: For? MILLER: Possession of marijuana. And they took him out and drove off. And I said, " ; [Whoops?], folks, we' ; d better have a meeting of the--you know, we' ; d better have a discussion here." ; This is from the--you know, of the other people who were at the youth group meeting. " ; And what are we going to do when Alan comes back? How are we going to treat him?" ; Well, the girls did not--Terri and Ricki did not know about it. And they were hysterical. They tried to call their parents, couldn' ; t get them. And we sat there, and we had a discussion about what we were going to do, how we were going to treat him when he came back. Of course, then the police brought him back in and I told him what--told everybody this is what happened. But, um, it was--it was probably the best program I ever participated in. It really--I mean, it was just phenomenal, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And what did they decide in that meeting, how they were going to-- MILLER: Well-- FERNHEIMER: --treat him? MILLER: --uh, it was--I mean, I don' ; t think we ever came--with any final--you know, we [got?]--either got from the standpoint of we' ; re just not going to let him come back to the standpoint we' ; re going to have to treat him like we did--you know, have to understand, you know? Uh, you know, I--[think?] to say, I don' ; t know who if anybody here uses marijuana. And I don' ; t know if they did or not, to this day. But, uh, so, you know, it was--it was really a very good program. I mean, [it was--it?]--to me, you know, I--it' ; s--it' ; s the program that I remember, of all the programs we had. And we would have youth group meetings, temple youth group meetings, we' ; d have it twice a month. Once in the afternoon, where we would have a meeting, and, you know, just a--and we' ; d get together and just have a meeting about different things. And then we would have--the other time, we' ; d have a dinner meeting on the other Sunday, uh, where the-- FERNHEIMER: Always on Sundays? MILLER: Always Sundays, afternoon. And we would have dinner. And, uh, the parents would all get together and--and, you know, alternate for fixing the--for fixing the meal. And then, the other program, which was, uh, I mentioned to you on the elevator, I think, coming up here, but--um, I took the region--or, you know, representatives from different--all the congregations in--within the region, uh, we took a--a trip. We were going to Washington, D.C. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. MILLER: Uh, we took a bus trip. Uh, we--everybody went to Cincinnati and caught the bus in Cincinnati, if I' ; m--remember right. But we may have started here and just gone to Cincinnati. (laughs) Um, and we arrived at--we were staying at the--I can' ; t think of the name of the hotel, but it' ; s right across the street from where the UAHC [Union of American Hebrew Congregations], uh, social action center either is or was, at least in those days. FERNHEIMER: In D.C. or in Cincinnati? MILLER: In D.C. In D.C. And we got to the hotel and found out that they were burning Washington. You know, Washington, the--the--I guess I--probably was--I guess when King was killed, I' ; m not sure. I can' ; t remember what the-- FERNHEIMER: The context? MILLER: Context, you know, context of it was. But, um, so, we didn' ; t get to tour--(laughs)--much of Washington. But fortunately, we were able to do, programmatically, things, because all we had to do was walk across the street. Uh, but it was, uh, a--that was--I mean, we' ; d go to the top of the hotel and look out over Washington, and you could see Washington burning. I mean, it was just a--unbelievable sight, you know? You can see pictures of it all you want. Uh, but it was just unbelievable. And--and, uh, I think probably those people who were there probably will never--have forgotten it either. Uh, but, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And did you shift the conversation? Or, I guess, how did that shift the conversation? MILLER: Well, I mean, yeah, we ended up--I mean, of course, we were going to be talking about social action anyway. Uh, but, uh, Dave [Sapperstein?] was, uh, head of the religious action center, and I think--as a matter of fact, I think he just retired. Uh, Rabbi--and--and, uh, I also, you know, I' ; d like to pat myself on the back, I guess, but, uh, at--at one of the union biennials, uh, there were three people who were--who--who--chairing the social action workshop. Dave Sapperstein, uh--God, I can' ; t think of the rabbi--the other rabbi' ; s name. He' ; s very famous in the social action area. And Jack Miller. There were three of us--were chairing, which I thought was sort of exciting for me, you know, to be able--and those--you know, in that, uh, context, uh-- FERNHEIMER: This was in the ' ; 60s? MILLER: Yeah, probably, or early ' ; 70s, maybe. FERNHEIMER: So, would you say--uh, we started this part of the conversation talking about your--kind of your leadership role in ZBT, as president. Um-- MILLER: Well ------(??) FERNHEIMER: --how would you say that your experiences as-- MILLER: Oh, I think it helps. I think it--I think that--and I think that--I think that being advisor to the youth group, you know, the organizational kind of standpoint, uh, uh, you know, it was, uh, always helpful. It was very helpful. Uh, you know, ' ; cause I--you know, you could--you say what did you learn being president? I can' ; t tell you. But I know that I learned a lot of patience, you know? You got diverse kinds of people, uh, with diverse ideas and diverse opinions and, uh, you have to deal with all of it. And, uh, uh, ' ; cause that sort of role is--is very helpful. FERNHEIMER: So, you talked a lot about these experiences as--as leading the youth and this kind of impactful experience of watching D.C. burn? How does that element of civil rights play into the way that you think about either your role as a leader or your role--or your Jewish identity? I think that was the question that sort of started as down this path. MILLER: Well, um, it certainly made me aware of--more aware of--of, uh, the issues. Um, I' ; ve always been some--somewhat liberal, uh, from the standpoint of--of--of, uh, black/white relations. Probably not as much as some others. Uh, you know, my brother was much more outgoing in those areas than--than I was. But, um, we--we had a maid growing up. She lived at our house. She lived--she got--be off one day a week. Uh, we would go to her house and pick her up and sit in the house and talk to her and her daughter and son-in-law and nephew. Uh, we never called her maid or anything like that. It was Emma, you know? Uh, and, she would--she would take us out for--when we were kids. I mean, she would take us out for walks and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was she African American? MILLER: Oh, yeah. Her--her son-in-law was--was the custodian of--I think it then was Johnson School, but I' ; m not sure what--someplace downtown. Uh, but, uh, she was--I mean, it--it--I never had any--you know, I--I' ; d--I didn' ; t stay out of--of, uh, of, uh, the, uh, ten cent store because the blacks were going to sit at the counter. Uh, you know, it--you know, uh, [and it' ; s?]--another person. I didn' ; t--I wasn' ; t--however, I wasn' ; t like some other people I know who--who, uh, you know, would, uh, go sit in the back of the bus just because that' ; s where the blacks were sitting. They would--the whites sat--these white people that I knew would go sit in the back of the bus, you know? (laughs) Well, I was--but I never paid any attention to it, you know? I' ; m not sure I could tell you that there were blacks sitting in the back of the bus, or not sitting in the front. I don' ; t think I ever paid any attention to it. Um-- FERNHEIMER: Did you experience--or, I guess, let me rephrase that. How were your experiences when you walked through town with Emma? Were you a--did others treat you differently? MILLER: No. No. Mr. Foley, who was our mailman, would stop and would give us rides and--in the back of his mail truck, you know? You know, was just--you know, my friends would call her--you know, they' ; d come to the house and they' ; d call her Emma, too, you know? It was not-- FERNHEIMER: Was it common? MILLER: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Did your friends also have-- MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: --live-in maids? MILLER: No, no. None that I would have--no, none of my friends had any. So, I mean, it was just something that we had, you know? FERNHEIMER: So, I guess related to that--it seems strange to transition this conversation back, but in some ways, um, did you have any experiences of anti-Semitism while you were a student at UK? MILLER: No, no. FERNHEIMER: And did you ever--well, you described going off campus for Hillel, which took place at the temple. Um, and can you tell me a little bit of--more about what Jewish life was like in Lexington at that time? And perhaps connected--well, start with that, and I have a follow-up question for you. MILLER: Well, yeah, I mean, I think that most of Jewish life was either--was centered around the congregations. Uh, you know, people would--people would have functions in their homes, you know, and we' ; d have parties or something. But, uh, you know, I think that, you know, that the--um, just like I told you about Passover, you know, that was--that was a community function, you know? And--and, uh, I mean, both congregations now say, well, it' ; s a community, uh, or congregational Seder. Uh, but many--in both congregations [were all?] three, probably. The [Havarah?]. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. (laughter) I was, like, the third--right. The Havarah. MILLER: Would, um, draw--uh, you know, more than--would have in somebody' ; s home. But--but it' ; s not--didn' ; t have the exclusivity like it did then, or doesn' ; t have the exclusivity that, like, it did then, uh, because there were, you know, more--you know, they would--there would be another Passover, another Seder, you know? FERNHEIMER: Mm. MILLER: And--and not necessarily that one would be more important than the other, but they--you know, they would be, certainly, different segments. FERNHEIMER: Of the community? It sounds really separated. MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, what were some of the other highlights of your time as a student at UK? MILLER: Oh, you know, I--I--I can' ; t--I really can' ; t think of highlights, as such, other than, you know, just the few different activities that happened, but, uh, you know, pledging, that was fun, you know? It was--I mean, in those days, you--you know, they--you had to--you had to wear--we had to wear, uh, at least one day a week, I guess, on whatever day ------(??) meeting was, we had to wear sack cloths underneath our clothes. Uh, you know, it was sort of a--what do they call it? Uh, you know, doing those kind of--stuff. Uh, you know, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Sort of like hazing? MILLER: Hazing, yeah. It was--there was--it was sort of a--sort of a hazing sort of thing. Uh, which you--you can' ; t do that anymore. Uh, you know, and, uh, I mean, it never--I don' ; t think it ever got out of hand, hazing, at least in our fraternity. But, you know, there were just those kinds of things that we did. And I--you know, uh, it sort of brings you more together that you' ; re--you know, you' ; re--you' ; re--you can [hate the actives?] and, you know, and, uh, when you' ; re pledges, and--and, uh, you can--you' ; re lowlife as a pledge, when you' ; re inactive, and--(laughs)--you know, it--and--and, uh, uh, and the road trip that we took George on. And, uh, uh--(laughs)--uh-- FERNHEIMER: Do you have any advice you' ; d give to Jewish students at UK today? MILLER: Well, I think they ought to have a fraternity again. Uh, you know, I don' ; t know how many Jewish students there are at UK anymore. Uh, but they--after--after ZBT went out of business, uh, they--they-- FERNHEIMER: When did--when did the house close? MILLER: [I don' ; t know?]. FERNHEIMER: Do you know? MILLER: I don' ; t-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- MILLER: --remember. It was after I was gone. Uh, we moved over to Maxwellton Court. They moved, uh-- FERNHEIMER: From State Street to Maxwell Court? MILLER: Maxwellton Court, there by the College of the Bible, uh, off of Limestone. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: It' ; s one of the streets up there. Uh, yeah, I--it just--it dwindled. I guess the--the population started diminishing and--and, uh, just wasn' ; t enough--that--they started another fraternity. I can' ; t remember which one it was. Jewish fraternity. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was it A-E-Pi [Alpha Epsilon Pi]? MILLER: No, it was Phi something or other, but-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- MILLER: --I think, but I can' ; t remember. I think maybe Alan Stine was in that, but I--was in there, but I can' ; t remember what it was, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: It' ; s--Phi Delta Phi, that' ; s a sorority, isn' ; t it? Yeah. Or Phi Sigma something, I don' ; t know. I can' ; t remember, but-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; ll ask. MILLER: --the sorority went out of existence a lot sooner than the fraternity did. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. They never had a house-- MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: --and so-- MILLER: No, I think most of the girls lived in Jewell Hall, but-- FERNHEIMER: Jewell Hall? MILLER: Uh-huh. Was there on--on, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Any other advice? MILLER: ------(??) FERNHEIMER: Besides starting a fraternity, or maybe a sorority? MILLER: Uh, well, you know, I--[just to?]--I mean, I like what I hear that they' ; re doing with the Hillel. Uh, I think that needs to be pushed. FERNHEIMER: Why is that so important? MILLER: Well, because it--as it exists now, that' ; s the only Jewish, uh, activity on campus, far as I know. And--and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And that' ; s important? MILLER: --you know, besides your--besides your program, of course, but--(laughter)--but, I mean, you know, that' ; s--that--that, uh, that you generally look at in relation to sociological standpoint. And I, you know, I think it' ; s--I think it' ; s important, uh, in particular at that age to--to have something that you can, uh, hold onto or tie your--your know, tie your string around, uh, as a--you know, as a Jewish student. And, yeah, I think they probably--and I don' ; t know if that' ; s true or not, but I--my guess is that there are probably some Jewish students on campus that belong to other--that belong to fraternities and sororities that, in the past, did not have that. Um, but it' ; s not the same, you know? It' ; s--it' ; s, uh--and it--uh, there' ; s a--there' ; s a fellah here in town who is not Jewish who was a ZBT someplace else, I don' ; t know where he was. I can' ; t remember. Uh, he used to work for me at the county attorney' ; s office. Uh, but, uh, um, you know, I--I just--uh, you know, I think that it' ; s--it' ; s--it' ; s important that there be some--something that--that they can associate each--with each other--with, and--and, uh, you know, that' ; s why it' ; s nice to--to have the Hillel, because there' ; s nothing else that you can go to where there' ; s other males and females [and?] ------(??) in together, individually and together, uh, on--on campus. And I just think that' ; s terribly important. FERNHEIMER: And the social component, the-- MILLER: Yeah, I mean, it' ; s--especially in today' ; s day and time, uh, you know? FERNHEIMER: Well, you' ; ve already started to talk a little bit about the ways that Jewishness figured in your adult life after ZBT and after your time at UK, um, being president of the temple and advising the youth group and being the regional advisor. Were there other ways that you were involved with the Jewish community after college? MILLER: Well-- FERNHEIMER: That--that already-- MILLER: --I was-- FERNHEIMER: --seems pretty impressive. MILLER: Well, I was--I was one of the early presidents of what is now, uh, uh, Federation, before it was Federation, but I was-- FERNHEIMER: What was it called then? Central-- MILLER: Central Kentucky Jewish Association. And that' ; s--uh, it' ; s sort of a joke around--the people who were here at the time. Uh, I was opposed to creating CKJF [Central Kentucky Jewish Federation] initially. FERNHEIMER: Because? MILLER: I just didn' ; t think there was any need for that sort of thing. Uh, and I changed my mind. Uh, we have meeting--we have meetings, [and--and now]--I guess it was when I was president. [It was to have?]--uh, but I would go to meetings and we would sit there and people would talk about it and the need for it and, you know, and what it should do and what it could do. And I changed my mind. And when we were talking about, uh, what a name should be, [it--you know, it?] ended up being CKJF. People thought they would call it JACK, Jewish Association of Central Kentucky. But the acronym JACK--(laughter)--that was a joke. But they--but that' ; s what the--you know? (laughs) It' ; s because of--you know, because of my initial, uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Reluctance, or-- MILLER: --reluctance to have such a-- FERNHEIMER: What changed your mind? MILLER: I think that it was at a point in time when there was a need for--association between the different entities of the Jewish community. FERNHEIMER: So, there was a-- MILLER: Together. FERNHEIMER: --a need for an institutional-- MILLER: Inst--yeah, institutional kind of thing, you know? FERNHEIMER: Uh-- MILLER: You know, it' ; s one thing to have the temple and it' ; s one thing to have the synagogue. It' ; s one thing to have whatever the--Havarah that is now existing but it wasn' ; t then. But, you know, it--it' ; s the--the bringing together--you know, probably the only thing that we would do, even in those days, together, was have the service at the cemetery between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, you know? When the two rabbis would--would lead--(laughs)--the, uh, service at the cemetery. Uh, and I think that the people who were in favor showed me that this is the kind of stuff that needs to be expanded on. Uh, never thought that I would see the day that we had so many of the--so many programs--which I think is great, by the way--between the-- FERNHEIMER: Through the Federation-- MILLER: --but--no, no, between-- FERNHEIMER: Shared-- MILLER: --between-- FERNHEIMER: --between the-- MILLER: --the congregations, and Federation. Um, you know, and I--you know, I just think that--yeah, sometimes I think maybe--because of the continuity between the congregations is so good that maybe it' ; s outlived its existence--its need for Federation. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. MILLER: I--I don' ; t--I' ; m--I' ; m not saying that it has, but, you know, it' ; s--it' ; s--the initial reason for having it may not be the same thing that we need as a central point of having it now, [I mean?]-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah, as communities evolve-- MILLER: Right. FERNHEIMER: --institutions evolve. MILLER: Right. I mean, of course, that--the problem with that is that you' ; re talking about whoever is here at this congregation and who' ; s at this congregation, you know? That could--they could end up being at loggerheads with each other and then never--you know, so, but I don' ; t anticipate that happening. But, I mean, what we have now is, uh, I think is going to be very, uh, progressive, uh, you know, ' ; cause Rabbi Wirtschafter' ; s prior connection with the synagogue and with the community--uh, through his family, of course, but--' ; cause he was too young when he was here, but, uh, you know, I--it' ; s--it' ; s, uh, you know, it' ; s there with him. And--and I think that, uh, you know, uh, I mean, his--his mother, as I' ; m sure you know, is one of the founders of--of, uh, Camp Shalom. Uh, or was one of the-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --and is--and this--in--initiating forces within it when they were here. Um, so, you know, and--and I think that--you know, I--well--well, I' ; m not [going to just?] get to that point--(laughter)--but, you know, I just think that--who--who--the--that the--Rabbi [Smolkin?] is--is a very outgoing kind of person, and I think Rabbi Wirtschafter' ; s going to be that same sort of person. And I--I think that it will only be great for the two congregations and for the Jewish community in--in general. FERNHEIMER: You--in your many roles over the years, what--what--I guess, um, I' ; m trying to formulate a question. I' ; m not doing a very good job of it. MILLER: [That' ; s?]-- FERNHEIMER: Uh, you--you' ; ve seen the communities evolve a lot. MILLER: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Um, and it--what you' ; ve been describing is this very separate--uh, [it' ; s almost?] separate, uh, socially between the temple and the synagogue that there was a need for a third institution to be formed, the Central Kentucky Jewish Federation, that--if--am I understanding correctly that part of the impetus for that was to form a space where the communities could come together? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, and as you' ; ve been talking right now about the sort of contemporary scene-- MILLER: Oh, I' ; m not saying that it ought to be done away with. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. MILLER: [Okay?], I' ; m not--you know, I don' ; t want to come across as that. I' ; m just saying that--that, um--and, you know, and I think they do--I think programmatically, uh, I think that--that the, uh, federation is--is making available, uh, programs that, uh, can further, uh, the association with everybody who is Jewish in the community-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --which is, uh, which is--has got to be important. And, you know, and as--you know, knock on wood, uh, we haven' ; t seen the--in Lexington, uh, we have not seen the, uh, viral, uh, anti-Semitism here that you' ; ve seen in a lot of other communities. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Uh, and I--and I think that--I think that' ; s because, uh, we have, as a community, have made available contact between these groups that might, uh, be, uh, directed in those directions. That' ; s--not very good way to say it. But, uh, you know, I--I think that--uh, I know when Rabbi [Kline?] was here and I--you know, I don' ; t--haven' ; t seen yet about, uh--uh, Rabbi Wirtschafter, I don' ; t know what his feelings are in--in relation to the, um, uh, Middle Eastern religions in--you know, in this community. Rabbi Kline was very, um, active in--in, uh, working with and having, uh, uh, some of the, uh, people from the, uh, uh, Muslim community into the temple, and he went to their--and--and I think that those kinds of contacts, uh, are important in order to maintain the stability that, uh, to this point we have been very fortunate to have. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Uh, so, I--you know, I--I--uh, you know, uh, I think we need to know about everybody, you know? And--and, uh, when I say everybody, I mean all the different segments in this community that--that can be divisive. Uh, I mean, we' ; ve had--I know at the temple, we' ; ve had, uh, um, uh, the head of, uh, opera department at university--black gentleman, I can' ; t remember what his name is. But, uh, he and his choir have been to the temple and sang, uh, and, uh, you know, I think that' ; s good, you know? Because there' ; s an involvement with a segment of the community. Um, and--and I think we' ; ve got to be aware of--of real life, you know? That' ; s--that' ; s--that' ; s one of the things I think is great about having, uh, young rabbinical leaderships, uh, because I think that, you know, regardless of how strict or liberal or conservative or whatever that you--what term you want to be--is--of the individuals who are in leadership positions, whether they be rabbinical or lay, uh, uh, I think that the more we are open, the better this community will be as--as far as we' ; re concerned, you know? I--we can' ; t stop blacks or whites or whatever it might be killing the other, you know--we can' ; t stop that. Uh, uh, but we can make it so that it does not focus on us, if that makes any sense. I--you know-- FERNHEIMER: Can you--tell me a little bit more about that. I' ; m trying to wrap my head around it. MILLER: Well, uh, well, well, what--saying is that I think that the more we' ; re--the more we are open to discussions with the various groups, whatever that might be, whether it be religious or, uh, economic or--or, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, race--I don' ; t know what other term you use--that that will make--of course, there--always potential splinter individuals, but, uh, I think it will make it less--less, uh, open to antagonism, uh, between those groups and us, if that makes--if that makes any sense. I' ; m, uh-- FERNHEIMER: I think I understand what you' ; re getting at. Um, sort of the more, uh, exposure-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --it sounds like-- MILLER: Right. FERNHEIMER: --to different groups and ideas, um, the better it is for the Jewish community? MILLER: Yes, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Is that a-- MILLER: Right, I--you know, and that' ; s what I--I' ; m looking at it from that standpoint that, you know, uh, sure, it' ; s better for the individuals, too, to be able to be more open. But I' ; m talking about just as far as a group is concerned. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. MILLER: Uh, [am I?] suggesting maybe [you will?] have to go out and march for somebody? No, I' ; m not suggesting that is necessarily--uh, you can if you want to. Uh, that' ; s an individual choice. But I' ; m talking about from the--from a group standpoint, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, you' ; re making a distinction between the Jewish community as a--as a collectivity and individual-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --Jewish members-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --of that community. MILLER: Yeah. I mean, you' ; re--you' ; re never going to have unanimity about any of it. I mean, heaven forbid you should talk about politics--(laughs)--you know? (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um, well, that--you' ; ve kind of touched a little bit on this, but, um, how--how would you describe the changes in the Jewish community that you' ; ve witnessed during the time that you' ; ve been here? And, you know, you have quite a--a good stretch to--to think about-- MILLER: Well, I think that--for the most part, I think that everybody--no, that' ; s--that won' ; t--that' ; s too--I don' ; t like that word. I think that for the most part, uh, I' ; ve seen more openness, um, as to--in--to be inclusive, uh, of everybody in the community, as opposed to being exclusive. Uh, you know, I--even though it' ; s a synagogue or a temple program, I think it is open to the Jewish community. And I think that' ; s--that' ; s something that I wouldn' ; t have seen growing up here, you know? It' ; s a--it' ; s--it' ; s a much more inclusive community than it was eighty years ago, seventy years ago, you know? Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And why do you think that is? MILLER: (laughs) I think that growing up, uh, we have seen so many changes in this world. Um, I think that our--our leadership, whether it be rabbinic or lay is much more liberal--and I don' ; t mean that from a religious standpoint--much more open-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-- MILLER: --to inclusiveness. Um, I think maybe it begins on a social standpoint, uh, where Johnny and Harry, who belong to two different congregations, are friends because they went to school together, because they--you know, whatever it might be. And they--it--it spreads, you know? And--and I think that this is probably the biggest change in this community, you know? You know, forget how--you know, sure, the Reform movement has--has moved more towards the center. And sure, the Conservative movement has moved more to the center. Um, sure, there are members of the--each of the congregations who are di--you know, diametrically opposed to each other--each other, within their own community, [with?] their own congregations. But, from the standpoint of--of inclusiveness, I think that we have seen such an openness that I would never have believed, growing up, would have occurred. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. MILLER: Yeah, I' ; ve said--you know, and I know--now, you know, and I plead guilty--have said, you know, they' ; re nothing but a bunch of--you know, [over here?], you know? And I know there are people that have said the same thing over here, you know, going this way. I can tell you that part of my change in attitude had to do with my wife. You know, she was not--yeah, I mean, when she first came to town, she taught Sunday school at the synagogue. After we got married, at one point she taught the class, you know, at every [place?]. I mean, you know, at the temple. But I' ; ve seen--you know, I' ; ve seen this--this difference--I look at--I look at one differently than I did forty years ago, you know? Sure, the world has changed, but so have I, you know? Yeah, you know, sometimes I' ; m not as comfortable at one--at, you know, at--you know, but--you know, I don' ; t know--I don' ; t--you know, I don' ; t know Hebrew, you know? (laughs) You know, I can--I--I can--you know, I get--I probably could--never had a bar mitzvah if Susan hadn' ; t bugged me. Not bugged me, that' ; s not the right word. But hadn' ; t done--been so helpful to me in learning to read the Hebrew, you know? I' ; d never thought about reading Hebrew, you know? And, you know, and John--and our--the--the temple--and I don' ; t--I know there' ; s been a change at the synagogue of the--of the, uh, prayer books-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- MILLER: --uh, at the temple. They' ; re on their--their third or fourth change. The latest one, which I' ; m not knowing, the red, is much more gender neutral. Uh, but when--when--in the old Union prayer book, you know, yeah, there' ; d be some Hebrew in there, and occasionally [it' ; d] be read. But, like I said, we didn' ; t have bar mitzvah or bat mitzvahs, you know? Confirmation, uh, I don' ; t remember if we had to read any Hebrew or not, but-- FERNHEIMER: Mostly in English. MILLER: --probably, you know, maybe the prayers before the--before and after the reading of the Torah. But, uh, you know, I--I think that there' ; s been such a--an--there' ; s such an openness in this community. I can' ; t tell you about other places. But in this community, that--is--is heartwarming to see, you know? Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Can I shift the conversation a little bit? MILLER: Sure. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about how your Jewishness is different from that of your parents? MILLER: Oh--(laughs)--I' ; ll--we have, uh, uh, so, when the kids are here, in particular, you know, we give presents for--for, uh, Chanukah. Uh, you know, uh, light--we don' ; t always light the candles, because it' ; s just the two of us, so--you know, we don' ; t always do that. But we have the menorahs in the house. I don' ; t think we had a menorah at our house growing up. I may be wrong, but I don' ; t remember one. Uh, so, I--you know, I think that the--you know, I just--I just think that that' ; s--um, I' ; m much more religious, I--uh, in some ways. Yeah, I--I' ; m not necessarily as religious as--uh, maybe I might want to be, but I don' ; t go to services that often. I haven' ; t been to the services at temple in some time. Uh, I go, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Has it changed over the years? MILLER: Huh? FERNHEIMER: Your relationship to Judaism, has it changed? Or how has it changed over the years? MILLER: Well-- FERNHEIMER: You mentioned your wife as a kind of key moment. MILLER: Yeah. I mean, I--I think that' ; s true, I--you know, and--and, um, I listen more at services when I' ; m there. I--you know, I--my--I have--my attention span is never really very good. Um, but I--I find in myself--you know, in particular when the rabbis are talking, whether, you know, a sermon or--or whatever it might be, get--you know, talking about it, a prayer or whatever they might be talking about it--as some--you know, I will--I may not remember all what they said, but I tend to listen to ' ; em more than--than I did. Um, you know, I--I--I' ; m much less likely--well, ' ; cause I don' ; t wear a watch that often anymore. But I' ; m much more likely not to be looking to see, you know, is it time--about time for the service to be over, um, then I used to be, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And if--you have children? MILLER: One. FERNHEIMER: One. It--how--you--one son? MILLER: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And how is your relationship to Jewish identity and practice compared to his? MILLER: Oh, well, mine is much more. Uh, he married a non-Jewish girl. Uh, he--he joined the temple here, uh, so that he can go to services in New York, uh, without joining the congregation up there. Uh, but I think that probably for the High Holidays is the only time he' ; ll go to services up there. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And his children? MILLER: Well, nothing yet. I don' ; t know what' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: They' ; re still pretty small, right? MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Three and-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --one or-- MILLER: [I mean?], he' ; s--uh, you know, I don' ; t know what' ; s going to happen, and I--you know, uh, I think that they' ; re not going to push any particular religion. Uh, they were married by--there' ; s a group, apparently, in New York of clergy that will marry anybody. You know, different things. Well, it--they--they interviewed--and this one--the one that they end up choosing was a woman who had been Jewish. She converted to some non-Jewish religion. And then she has converted back to Judaism, so that the--(laughs)--so that the service, they did several of the--they--they broke the glass and they did--she did--they did prayers, you know, the Jewish prayers, and--uh, so, I mean, it was a--I mean, I don' ; t think they ever talked about Jesus. I may be wrong, but I didn' ; t hear it. But, uh, but it was--you know, they had some of the Christian stuff in there, you know? But it was a--it was a--it was that sort of a--a, uh, wedding. Uh, it was non-denominational sort of thing, but, um, but included everybody. So, you know, we' ; ll just have to wait and see how that turns out. FERNHEIMER: How would you say where you grew up and lived your adult life here in Kentucky has affected your Jewish identity or your relationship with Judaism? MILLER: Oh, I think that growing up in a community this size, it probably is more than would have happened if I would--grown up in a bigger community, uh, because of the need for the relational situation, you know, [would?]--having a group--you know, if--if I was--if I was Jewish and it was just--if there was no congregation involved, it would have been very difficult to--for me to go to churches with--you know, because I need someplace to go. Uh, so, I--you know, I think that growing up here, uh, while--albeit, it was a small, uh--it was very, um, big, if that makes any sense. I mean, it was--it was a focal--I mean, all of my parents' ; friends were Jewish, or most of them. Um, and most of their association was, you know, outside of work, uh, [where?] my father was--was, uh--from a social standpoint was Jewish. Um, and, uh, I mean, there was never any question they were Jewish, you know, even though we had Christmas. Uh, it was just something that everybody did, you know? It was no big deal, you know? FERNHEIMER: Christmas or-- MILLER: Yeah. I mean, it wasn' ; t--we didn' ; t celebrate the birth of Christ, you know? It was--it was a holiday, you know? Everybody celebrates Christmas, you know? I mean, that' ; s just the way it was. FERNHEIMER: Like Thanksgiving. MILLER: Yeah. I mean, we--our--we had--my parents had friends down the street who were Jewish. We would go down to their house and decorate their Christmas tree Christmas Eve, you know? You know, it was--that' ; s just things that--at least the people that my parents were around did that. You know, I mean, it' ; s--yeah, no, it' ; s not Jewish. But it wasn' ; t something that was anti-Jewish. It was just another holiday. FERNHEIMER: Is there anything that I haven' ; t asked you about that you' ; d like to share? MILLER: (laughs) I can' ; t imagine--(laughs)--uh, you know, I--it' ; s a--you know, I' ; m--I' ; m--it--I' ; m glad to--have been able to do this, because, you know, it--it--the [folks--uh, it?]--I got to look back at some of the things that--uh, you know, that you were going to talk about that I might not have gone back and re--re--looked at. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: Yeah. I--you know, it' ; s a--I don' ; t have--I don' ; t have the vivid memory that some people have about their--you know, like about at UK and that kind of stuff of--but, uh, to me, the things that are important, I remember, you know? And--and at least the things that are important to me, I remember. And--and, uh, you know, it' ; s just like the--the different activities and things. You know, uh, and everything wasn' ; t--don' ; t get me wrong, everything wasn' ; t hunky-dory, both--you know, at the--the temple and all that kind of stuff. There was--there was a lot of struggles, a lot of bad feelings that went on over the period of time. Um, and--and some pretty harsh things went on. But, uh, those things show--do pass, you know? And--and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Anything in particular that you-- MILLER: --uh, that-- FERNHEIMER: --recall? MILLER: Yeah, but I' ; m not going to talk about it. (laughs) Well, it--it' ; s--it' ; s--we had some difficulties over--over--over, uh, employee hiring and maintaining--and, uh, some people got to the point that they even left the congregation because of it. Uh, most of those people have come back. You know, the--the Havarah started, initially, as a result of the, uh, inability of women to participate in--in services. People left the synagogue because of that and started the Havarah. Most of those people have come back and joined both--still--keep both places, and some don' ; t, uh, you know. And some just belong to that for whatever reason and not belong to either of the congregations. But, you know, everything isn' ; t always--you know, you can' ; t expect everything to--to--to operate, um, without problems. I mean, life-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah-- MILLER: --isn' ; t that great, you know, to--for that to happen. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: Uh, I wished it did. But, you know, and--and--and within the Jewish community, it' ; s--it' ; s the same thing. Yeah, you know, uh, uh, you know, and--and, you know, it--it was at one point when they were talking about joining the two congregations, we were--the--the temple bought a piece of property [out on Mount Table?] Road that was going to be used for a new temple. Uh, didn' ; t happen. They sold it and made--profit on it, but, uh, it--you know, things--things change and things come back, you know? And--and, uh, uh, I--you know, I--I--for me, you know, I said it before, I think, but from a rabbinical standpoint, I think that I can' ; t remember a time that both congregations have--have young, vibrant leadership. And--and I say young. To me, everybody' ; s young, but--(laughs)--you know? But, uh, it--it--I think that it' ; s--it' ; s a--a--it' ; s a--it' ; s an encouraging situation, for--for the community of Lexington-- FERNHEIMER: --oh-- MILLER: --and central Kentucky, you know? I--I just, uh--I--I--I--you know, I' ; m--I' ; m--I' ; m very happy for it, uh, and, you know, at some point in time, I--maybe I' ; ll start going back to--to services. (laughter) But, um, uh, I' ; m--I' ; m at a--I' ; m at an age where I' ; m one of these--the senior members now, so--(laughs)--um, you know, and--and that' ; s--well, just let me finish this one thing and-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah. MILLER: Uh, we have a group that--that--that you probably heard about from some of these other people. But, uh, we' ; re called the, uh, whatever ------(??) called, I can' ; t think what we' ; re called. But we have a group of fellahs that have lunch, uh, on--on--every Friday at different restaurants. And, um, it' ; s fun. You know, it' ; s a--it' ; s a Jewish group at--you know, and--and Earl comes. Uh, but he' ; s the only, as far as I--think, the only non-temple member that--that comes to the--to lunch. But, it' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: Is it most-- MILLER: --it' ; s certainly not keeping people out, uh, you know? It--um-- FERNHEIMER: Who else participates? I' ; ve heard a little bit about the lunch bunch. MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Does Mike [Adees?] go? MILLER: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. MILLER: Yeah, I don' ; t--I can' ; t remember if Mike--[though?], see, Mike' ; s still working, I think, so, uh, but I' ; ll--it' ; s--it' ; s, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, it' ; s mostly retirees? MILLER: Yeah, yeah, most--for the most part. I mean, Earl still works, but, uh, uh, I think, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Is there a president of the lunch bunch? MILLER: No. (laughter) No. We vote every time--every Friday where we' ; re going to go the next Friday. (laughs) It' ; s a very--very democratic, with a small D, group. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How big is lunch bunch? MILLER: Oh, we usually have between eight and ten, eleven people. FERNHEIMER: And what are the types of restaurants you frequent? MILLER: Oh, we go--I mean, we go to Olive Garden, we go to the--uh, we go to a Mexican--restaurants, we go to Mandarin Chinese, we go to another Chinese, we go to--uh, uh, [was a?] steak place out there. Long something or long--Longhorn, uh, we go to Golden Corral, you know? We--we--we pretty much cross the--the, uh, town on place, and we try not to go downtown, ' ; cause there' ; s no place to park. But, uh, we' ; re--we' ; re pretty open to almost anything. We go to the new places that--uh, somebody' ; s always gone to ' ; em and, uh, uh, [is the?]-- FERNHEIMER: And is-- MILLER: --place there in front of [South Christian?] Church on Richmond Road. I can' ; t remember what the name of that is. [Nelly' ; s?] or--forget--I can' ; t remember the name of it. We went there once and, uh, we went to [Koba?] once and--so, we' ; ve been--we go to all kinds of places. FERNHEIMER: And it' ; s mostly a social club? MILLER: Oh, yeah, that' ; s all it is. We just get together and chitchat. We--12:30 to 1:30-ish, you know? Thereabouts. FERNHEIMER: Who--who--so, it' ; s you, Earl-- MILLER: Marty, uh, [Bill Gemlen?], uh, uh, Dave--uh, Dan--uh, not Dan--yeah, Dan [Ayuris?], uh, uh, Marty, uh-- FERNHEIMER: More than one Marty? MILLER: --Marty Kaplan. FERNHEIMER: Oh. MILLER: Uh, there' ; s--there' ; s three or--you know, there' ; s--there' ; s ------(??) FERNHEIMER: Some other gentleman. MILLER: Jerry--Jerry, you know, Jerry Wormser, as well. He comes and, uh, Harold Maker used to come, uh, and what' ; s his name? Uh, I can' ; t even remember what his name is now. Passed away. But, uh, he used to--belonged to the Havarah, so he used to come and--and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Ned? Not Ned. I don' ; t know that many names-- MILLER: [That?]--no, I can' ; t [remember, but?]-- FERNHEIMER: --from the Havarah. MILLER: But, uh, you know, we--it' ; s a--it' ; s just fun, you know, just to--go to the Good Foods co-op sometimes and-- FERNHEIMER: Nice. And--well, you wanted to make sure you included that before we conclude, so-- MILLER: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --tell me why, and then, uh-- MILLER: [Yeah, well?], why? Because it' ; s Jewish and--but it' ; s--we don' ; t talk about religion very--yeah, we do talk about Israel some, but, uh, it' ; s--it' ; s--it' ; s just fun to just--for no reason at all except to socialize, and it--uh, they have--you know, sometimes we go to lunch at the temple when they have that, uh--I can never pronounce it, but the luncheon on--seniors on--[or in the?]--uh, Fridays, you know? Uh, once a month. So, I mean, you know, we--we--it' ; s just a--it' ; s a--it' ; s a Jewish--but it' ; s a--it' ; s a fun--just time--just to--us old folks to get together. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, I' ; m glad that you mentioned it and that we have it on the record, ' ; cause I' ; ve-- MILLER: Yeah. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: --been hearing little bits about it here and there. (laughter) Uh, but, um, I want to thank you for spending your afternoon with me-- MILLER: ------(??) FERNHEIMER: --talking about all these different social organizations, um, and I hope that it would be okay, if we have some follow-up questions, that we-- MILLER: Sure. FERNHEIMER: --send someone back up to-- MILLER: No problem. FERNHEIMER: --meet with you. But thanks again, Jack. I really appreciate your-- MILLER: My pleasure. FERNHEIMER: --time. MILLER: Oh, my pleasure. FERNHEIMER: Um-- END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh343_jk007_miller_ohm.xml 2015oh343_jk007_miller_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh343_jk007_miller_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jack Miller, August 31, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Miller was born in Lexington, Kentucky. His family originated from Germany. Miller's family opened a general store on the corner of Main street and Broadway. Starbucks is located there today. The store was a general store opened sometime in the 1870s. Jack also operated a law firm after he graduated in 1962.
Miller discusses how and why his family put up a Christmas tree even though they were heavily involved in Temple life. He also mentions the divide between the Temple and the Synagogue. He was also a part of the first B'nai Mitzvah group, however, this didn't occur until later in life. Miller also discusses his relationship with Rabbi Grafman, one of the seven clergy men to sign the "Letter to Birmingham Jail," to Martin Luther King, which was written on April 16, 1963.
Miller discusses how he attended the University of Kentucky undergraduate and post-graduate programs. Miller talks about being president of his fraternity, as well as its location and what social life was like. He also talks about being involved in Hillel. He graduated in 1962. Miller served in Fort Knox and then Fort Jackson, South Carolina. He took a year off from school because he was required to serve at least six months of active duty. He was a part of the Medical Corp.
Identifier
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2015oh343_jk007
Subject
The topic of the resource
Childhood
Jewish children
Jewish families.
Religion
Jews--Identity.
United States--Race relations.
African Americans--Relations with Jews.
Worship (Judaism)
Greek letter societies.
University of Kentucky
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/effa220ef28f300a044748968b041700.jpeg
1764ca8c9269f82bb8ebaf6f05f61cc5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Erle Levy
Interview Keyword
Entrepreneurship
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
Holidays.
Marriage
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh319_jk006 Interview with Erle Levy, August 19, 2015 2015oh319_jk006 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Jewish children Religion Jewish businesspeople College students--Social conditions College students--Religious life Greek letter societies. Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Entrepreneurship Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Holidays. Marriage Erle Levy Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|21(11)|63(3)|82(6)|138(11)|172(6)|204(12)|241(3)|274(3)|295(12)|319(7)|329(6)|342(4)|365(9)|380(7)|409(8)|440(12)|461(16)|502(4)|533(3)|563(3)|606(4)|634(9)|660(3)|696(9)|719(10)|762(2)|784(12)|801(8)|836(3)|859(3)|880(8)|917(3)|936(11)|960(6)|987(13)|1003(1)|1022(1)|1037(14)|1057(10)|1086(11)|1130(8)|1152(2)|1169(12)|1192(10)|1230(7)|1271(7)|1298(3)|1319(3)|1339(16)|1361(9)|1380(4)|1393(8)|1419(8)|1445(3)|1462(9)|1492(6)|1516(2)|1553(3)|1581(4)|1621(7)|1646(10)|1668(6)|1685(2)|1712(3)|1727(12)|1748(5)|1768(4)|1810(5)|1836(13)|1862(2)|1893(5)|1912(7)|1943(3)|1978(3)|2021(7)|2041(3)|2068(10)|2095(2)|2115(16)|2142(7)|2166(4)|2183(2)|2204(12)|2236(3)|2255(10)|2280(5)|2302(6)|2319(4)|2341(3)|2358(16)|2378(7)|2407(10)|2427(13)|2443(4)|2471(13)|2498(3)|2542(8)|2571(10)|2589(12)|2624(12)|2659(10)|2703(2)|2755(4) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253336883" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Introduction So before we get officially started, I'm going to say that today is August 19th, 2015. And my name is Janice Fernheimer and I am Associate Professor of Writing, Rhetoric, and Digital Studies and Director of Jewish Studies. Erle Levy discusses family lineage in Lexington. 1934 ; Baltimore (Md.) ; Barbara (Bobbie) Levy ; City Poultry ; Good Samaritan Hospital ; Hyman Vernon Levy ; Jewish ; Kentucky ; Pauline Gall Levy ; Phillip Gall ; Poland ; Rose Gall ; Rose Scher ; Russia ; Uedell Levy ; Verchovisky ; Vine Street [new name of Water Street] (Lexington, Ky.) ; Winchester (Ky.) Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.04291, -84.500433 17 Coordinates for Good Samaritan Hospital (where Erle Levy was born) in 1934. http://ukhealthcare.uky.edu/goodsamaritan/ Good Samaritan Hospital today. 334 Childhood and family origins So, you grew up here in Lexington. Levy discusses his childhood in Lexington, including his family's origins in Europe and Kentucky. 1930s ; 1940s ; Jukeboxes ; Limestone Road ; Main Street ; Music ; Poultry ; Record players ; Ridgeway Road ; Shropshire Boulevard ; Soldiers ; Strand Theatre ; The Barbecue Restaurant ; Vine Street ; World War II Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/8403/photos Strand Theatre, Lexington, Kentucky 774 Early school years, 1941-1945 So this is all during the time when you were a schoolboy. Levy discusses his childhood school life in Lexington. 1941-1945 ; Cassidy Elementary ; Elementary schools ; Henry Clay High School ; High schools ; Middle schools ; Morton Junior High ; Tates Creek Road Education--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish children ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.0159100, -84.4691000 17 Henry Clay GPS coordinates http://www.henryclay.fcps.net Henry Clay now 800 Childhood Judaism And during this time can you tell me a little bit about your parents' relationship to Judaism or your family? If there were family rituals or, uh, talk to me a little bit about that. Erle discusses his childhood life in relation to Judaism and family traditions. Alan Bloomfeild ; Bar mitzvahs ; Confirmation ; Conservative Judaism ; Gender segregation ; Hebrew ; Heder ; High Holy Days ; Ivan Goldfarb ; Jack Miller ; Jewish ; Marylin Bederman ; Maxwell Street ; Modern-Orthodox ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Orthadox ; Rosh Hashanah ; Sabbath ; Sandy Bederman ; Shabbat ; Shabbos ; Shul ; Sunday school ; Synagogues ; Temple Adath Israel ; Yom Kippur Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/39/19/9b/39199bb7891eaf2ae1a337f37af3e6e9.jpg Ohavay Zion Synagogue during the 1940s 1080 Jewish businesses in downtown Lexington Uh, I'm going to ask a question about--did they have any--was there kosher meat or were they interested in that at-- Levy discusses the Jewish businesses that existed in Lexington in the mid-twentieth century. Ben Snyder's ; Bissel ; Brown's Bootery ; Department store ; Department stores ; Downtown Lexington ; English ; Evelyn and Maurice Hymson ; Hilton (Lexington, Ky.) ; Hyman Levy ; Hymsons ; I. J. Miller ; Jewelry repair ; Jewelry stores ; Jewish ; Joe Rosenberg ; Kaufman's ; Kentucky Utilities ; Kosher ; Limestone Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Main Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Men's clothes ; Mill Street and Broadway ; Myers ; Nathan Herman ; Non-Kosher ; North Limestone Street ; Pawn stores ; Pawnshops ; Police reports ; Restaurant ; Rosenberg's ; Sabbath ; Shabbat ; Shabbos ; Strand Theatre ; Strauss's ; Tanya Herman ; The Barbecue Place ; Union Station ; Upper Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Walnut Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Water Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Wholesale meat ; Winniker's ; Wolf Wile's ; World War II ; Yiddish Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://www.kentuckytheater.com/images/eastmain1948.jpg Downtown Lexington, Kentucky, 1950s 1708 Family and childhood memories And what--what did your grandfather speak? What was his first language? Levy discusses his family and childhood memories and the importance of maintaining Jewish identity for his family. He discusses his Jewish education at the Temple (Adath Israel) and the Synagogue (Ohavay Zion). Alan Bloomfield ; Bar mitzvahs ; Confirmation ; English ; Fontaine Road ; Heder ; High Holidays ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Language ; Marriage ; Maxwell Street ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; Orthodox ; Religious observance ; Rosh Hashanah ; Temple Adath Israel ; Tradition ; Yiddish ; Yom Kippur Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.isjl.org/uploads/2/4/2/2/24228391/5019558.jpg Temple Adath Israel. 1977 University of Kentucky in the 1950s Wow. Is there, uh--now that we've talked a little bit about, uh, your childhood, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your experiences here at UK? Uh, I know-- Levy discusses his time at the University of Kentucky and his experiences in the Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) fraternity. 1951 ; Alan Bloomfield ; Business ; Commerce ; Fraternity ; Howard Johnson's motel ; Ivan Goldfarb ; Jack Miller ; Jewish ; Jewish fraternity ; Jim Wenneker ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Sandy Bederman ; Shul ; State Street ; Student life ; Student Union ; Sunday school ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel ; University of Kentucky (UK) ; Whitehall Classroom Building ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h9zsjWv2lTk/UjGfhz4MxbI/AAAAAAAAGgs/xDvOf36i9HA/s1600/070504pv.jpg Whitehall Classroom Building 2442 Zeta Beta Tau and UK student life Uh, can--I want to circle back to the, uh, fraternity though. Levy discusses his time in the ZBT Jewish fraternity and his college social life at the University of Kentucky. 113 State Street ; Anti-Semitism ; B'nai B'rith ; Bowling ; Boy Scouts ; Conservative Jews ; Fraternities ; Hillel ; Ivan Goldfarb ; Jack Miller ; Jewish fraternity ; Kentuckians ; Kentucky ; Marty Solomon ; Musicals ; Nicholasville Road ; Orthodox Jews ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Plays ; Rabbis ; Reform Jews ; Sandy Bederman ; Stuart Yussman ; Student Union ; Theatre ; University of Kentucky (UK) ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.030429, -84.51088199999998 17 GPS location of the ZBT house. https://coedmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/emory-zbt.jpg?quality=88 ZBT house 3648 Marriage Uh, what were the highlights of your time as a student at UK? Levy discusses meeting his (future) wife during college. 1955 ; Barker Hall ; Buell Armory ; College ; Drive in movies ; Graduation ; Ivan Goldfarb ; Jewish ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Nash Rambler ; Student Union ; Tradition ; University of Kentucky (UK) ; Whitehall Classroom Building ; Williamson (W. Va.) College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Marriage 17 https://libraries.uky.edu/images/uarptour/gymarmor.jpg Buell Armory 4125 Post-graduation And you all--did you stay in town after graduation? Levy discusses his life after UK, his marriage, and his life as a businessman. Howard Johnson motel ; Real estate business ; Real estate license ; Zandale Shopping Center Employment--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. 17 4212 Advice to current Jewish UK students and Jewish adult life And, uh, I missed a question. Uh, hopefully you'll-- Levy gives advice to current University of Kentucky Jewish students, and discusses his life as a Jewish adult. He talks about the shift seen with girls being allowed to be bat mitzvahed. B'nai B'rith ; Bat mitzvahs ; Bill Silliman ; College ; Confirmed ; DeWitt Hisle ; Family ; GI Bill ; Israel ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Jewish identity ; Jewish observance ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Kentucky Lighting ; Kosher for Passover ; Late 1950s ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Orthodox ; Ritual ; Sabbath ; Shabbat ; Shabbos ; Students ; Sunday school ; Temple Adath Israel ; Tradition ; University of Kentucky (UK) Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.ozs.org Ohavay Zion Synagogue today, where Levy attends services. 5021 Jewish community and personal perspectives Um, how have--um, I'm sorry I'm going back and-- Levy discusses his perspective on how the Jewish community has changed in Lexington, and of how his own Jewishness has changed. He talks about the social divide between Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Temple Adath Israel in Lexington. Advocacy ; Antisemitism ; Closed businesses for Jewish holidays ; High Holy Days ; Israel Bonds ; Jewish ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Minyan ; Orthodox Judaism ; Phillip Gall's store ; Rosh Hashanah ; Sabbath ; Shabbat ; Shabbos ; Social divide ; State of Israel ; Yom Kippur Holidays. ; Israel ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Religion and politics ; Worship (Judaism) 17 https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3361/3480830203_5331deec55.jpg Women from B'nai B'rith selling Israel Bonds. Oral History Erle Levy discusses family lineage in Lexington, Kentucky and Europe. He discusses his childhood school life in Lexington, and his childhood life in relation to Judaism and family traditions. He talks about the Jewish businesses that existed in Lexington in the mid-twentieth century. Levy discusses his time at the University of Kentucky and his experiences in the Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) fraternity. He talks about meeting his (future) wife during college. He discusses his life after UK, his marriage, and his life as a businessman. Levy discusses his perspective on how the Jewish community has changed in Lexington, and of how his own Jewishness has changed. He talks about the social divide between Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Temple Adath Israel in Lexington. FERNHEIMER: So before we get officially started, I' ; m going to say that today is August 19th, 2015. And my name is Janice Fernheimer and I am associate professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies and director of Jewish studies. And it is my great honor and pleasure to be interviewing Erle Levy as part of the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project. Uh, and so even though I just said your name, I' ; m hoping that you will, uh, help me out by stating your name at birth. LEVY: My name at birth was Erle Levy. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. And when and where were you born? LEVY: Uh, January 4th, 1934, Good Samaritan Hospital, Lexington, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: January 4th, 1934, right here in Lexington. LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: And what were your parents' ; names and occupations? LEVY: Uh, my mother' ; s name was Pauline, middle name Gall, that was her maiden name, uh, Levy, Pauline Levy. My father was Hyman Vernon Levy. FERNHEIMER: Vernon? LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: V-E-R-N-A-N? LEVY: N-O-N, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And did you have brothers and sisters? LEVY: I have a sister, B-- Barbara. But we called her Bobbie. Nobody calls her Barbara. FERNHEIMER: Bobbie I-E or Bobby Y? LEVY: B-O-B-B-I-E. FERNHEIMER: And how old is she relative to you? When was she born? LEVY: She was born four years later, ' ; 59. F-- ' ; 59. FERNHEIMER: Thirty-nine? LEVY: Thirty-eight. FERNHEIMER: Thirty-eight, okay. LEVY: (laughs) I' ; m sorry. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. Uh, and what were your parents' ; occupations? What did your parents-- LEVY: --my mother was a stay-at-home mom and my father when I was born was in the poultry business. FERNHEIMER: Here in town? LEVY: Yes, on Vine Street, uh[MC1]. FERNHEIMER: Who--who was he in business with? LEVY: Just himself. He called it City Poultry. It was just a few years but--maybe five or six years, seven years. FERNHEIMER: And were your parents, uh, the first ones to live in Lexington or did you have family that came to the US before that? LEVY: My grandparents on my mother' ; s side lived here, the Galls, Phillip--Phillip and Rose Gall. My--my father' ; s mother died about a year after I was born and his father was in Winchester, Kentucky. Prior to that he was on a farm somewhere outside of Winchester. FERNHEIMER: So your family goes back to Kentucky quite a ways. LEVY: Yeah. Yes. FERNHEIMER: Do you--who was--who was the first one to move here? Do you know? LEVY: Well, on my mother' ; s side he came around in the teens, fif-- fif-- ' ; 15, 1915, ' ; 16. FERNHEIMER: This was your mother' ; s father. LEVY: Father. Father. FERNHEIMER: Father' ; s father? LEVY: My mother' ; s father. FERNHEIMER: And his name was? LEVY: Phillip Gall. FERNHEIMER: Phillip Gall. LEVY: And my grandmother, I don' ; t know what--she grew up in Baltimore. And how they met I' ; m not too sure. (laughs) I probably was told but I' ; ve forgotten if-- FERNHEIMER: --but she came here with him. LEVY: She-- FERNHEIMER: --or she came to be with him. LEVY: I guess so, yes, right. Her last name, she was a Scher. FERNHEIMER: She was. LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Hm. LEVY: And, uh. FERNHEIMER: My family is Scher. LEVY: We may be related. Never can tell. FERNHEIMER: S-C-H-E-R? LEVY: S-C, uh, S-C-H-E-R. They were in Baltimore. FERNHEIMER: Mine were in DC. We' ; ll have to follow up on this. LEVY: Well, that' ; s close, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: What was her name? LEVY: Rose. FERNHEIMER: Rose Scher. And so she married Phillip and moved here roughly--do you know when they moved? No? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay[MC2]. Uh, and your father' ; s father was living in Winchester? LEVY: Yeah, Udell Levy. FERNHEIMER: What' ; s his name? LEVY: Udell. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? LEVY: U-D-E-L-L. FERNHEIMER: And anyone before that? LEVY: No. And their name was Versvovsky but they were Levites so they changed their name to Levy. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Can you spell Versvovsky for me? LEVY: I just--V-E-R. It' ; s a C in there. C-H-O-V maybe. I-S-K-Y. Something like that. FERNHEIMER: Uh, so they changed their name when they moved to Kentucky or when they came to the US? LEVY: Yeah. When they came to the US. FERNHEIMER: And where did they come from? LEVY: They came from--my--on my--on my father' ; s side, uh, they came from Russia. From the Ukraine. FERNHEIMER: Okay[MC3]. LEVY: And on my grandfather' ; s side he was somewhere near there. I can' ; t remember. Some other Russian--(laughs)--town. FERNHEIMER: And your mother' ; s side? LEVY: My m-- mother' ; s side, that' ; s what I' ; m talking about. FERNHEIMER: Oh okay. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So your mother' ; s side came from Russia. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And your father' ; s side. LEVY: Poland. FERNHEIMER: Poland. So you grew up here in Lexington. LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Can you describe your childhood to me? Where' ; d you go to school? Uh, what did you do? Where did you live? LEVY: Okay. We lived, uh, Ridgeway Road was the second house. First house was on a street called Shropshire Boulevard, which is somewhere off of, uh, Limestone. But I don' ; t know if it' ; s there anymore. And then they moved to Ridgeway when I was maybe a year old. And, uh, then moved down onto Fontaine. And then business got bad and we had to move in over my grandparents, the Galls, on the second floor of their duplex. FERNHEIMER: Also on Fontaine. LEVY: On Fontaine. FERNHEIMER: Right. If I recall correctly we just drove past them. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: One was 1332. LEVY: Yeah, 13--and 1320 or 1312, something like that. FERNHEIMER: That was where your grandparents lived. LEVY: Yeah. On my mother' ; s side. FERNHEIMER: On your mother' ; s side. LEVY: On my grand-- on my father' ; s side they were in Winchester. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And so on your--on your mother' ; s side it was the poultry. LEVY: No, my father' ; s. FERNHEIMER: That was your father' ; s side. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m sorry. LEVY: My father had a poultry and his brother also sold poul-- had another place that they--they were in--they were in--they were competitors. FERNHEIMER: Oh, really. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And so what was w-- the s-- one store was located in Winchester? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: No. LEVY: Both of them here. FERNHEIMER: Both here in Lexington. LEVY: Both of--both of them on Vine Street. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Both on Vine Street. LEVY: One block apart. FERNHEIMER: And so-- LEVY: --but one sold mostly the--the b-- uncle sold mostly wholesale and sold to people that, uh, restaurants and things like that. And my father sold both retail and wholesale and eggs. Fact, when I was five or six, I was taken down there to--they used to put a--have a can and a light inside of it with a hole in the can and you held the egg up to it to make sure it was still good. There wasn' ; t anything in it. And then if it was good you put it in the thing and they' ; re selling the eggs retail. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So your--your father' ; s store was called--remind me again the name. And your uncle' ; s store was--had a different name. LEVY: Uh, I don' ; t remember what his, uh, gr-- the uncle' ; s, uh, name of it. FERNHEIMER: What period of time was this roughly that they had the stores? LEVY: Uh, th-- thir-- late thirties and forties, during the war, part-- partly during the war. Mostly thirties. Then in the forties my father sold his business and went into the restaurant business on Main Street next to the Strand Theatre. Was called the Barbecue restaurant. It' ; s an interesting story if you want to hear it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I do. I don' ; t-- LEVY: --what-- FERNHEIMER: --where was the Strand Theatre? That' ; s a va-- LEVY: --Strand Theatre was across the street from where used to be the railroad station. It, uh, in the block between Lime and Rose. FERNHEIMER: Between Lime and Rose. Okay. So right at the cornerstone of campus now really. LEVY: Uh, well, downtown though on Main Street. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Okay. LEVY: Between Lime and Rose. FERNHEIMER: Oh okay. So that' ; s where the railroad station used to be. LEVY: Yes. Railroad station was right there on Main Street. FERNHEIMER: And so you were going to tell me an interesting story. LEVY: Uh, the trains from Fort Knox would come through the station th-- through here and many times the train would stop and the soldiers that were on there would have to get off and get something to eat. Well, the restaurant was right across the street from the train station. FERNHEIMER: This was the Barbecue restaurant. LEVY: Yes. So when he--some of them--about three block--two blocks up was a wholesale meat place. And my father had a deal with the man who owned it who I don' ; t remember his name. Uh, to sell him chickens. He was out--he was out of the poultry business but he' ; d made connections with this fellow and didn' ; t want to have to pay, uh, taxes on it. So I had a little red wagon that you pull and he' ; d have me go down there. Now this was--what was I? Seven, eight, nine years old, during the war, and I had a little red wagon. I' ; d roll it up Main Street to the place and they' ; d load it up with chickens and I' ; d cover it with a rug or blanket and roll it back down to the Barbecue restaurant. That was my job. D-- I' ; d do it about twice a day when he knew he had a train coming. He had a friend who was in the, uh, what' ; d you call it? Like sold radios and appliances and--and the beginning of TV sets but they were not, you know, little screens, little round ones. And he--he had a, uh, place that he had taken this, uh, instrument or machine out of where you used to sit in a booth and you' ; d put a nickel in and play a song in each booth. And it would come on as, you know, depending on who put the nickel in first. Each one had the name of about eight songs. FERNHEIMER: So this was like an early jukebox. LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. And then but we didn' ; t have a jukebox. Now you got to realize I didn' ; t even know what the hell I was doing. I was between age eight and ten I guess or eleven. And he had me--when he knew a train was coming, it would always be in the evening or after school. So I' ; d catch a bus, go downtown. And my job was he had a record player in the back of the restaurant. It w-- the restaurant was about this big. And he had a--somebody would put a nickel in there in the box. And it wouldn' ; t play because there wasn' ; t a real jukebox. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: They would come up to my mother at the cash register and say, " ; Hey, I put a nickel in and--and, uh, it didn' ; t play." ; And she said, " ; Well, what did you put the nickel in for?" ; And one of the songs was by the Andrews Sisters. So somebody would holler out, " ; Erle, Andrews Sisters." ; And I would take the record and put it on a phonograph. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: And it would play. So there were about six records. My job was every time somebody said, " ; I put--I put a nickel in, I didn' ; t get my song." ; I had to put that song on. And they got their money' ; s worth but it was a big task to--and people never did catch on. But, uh. FERNHEIMER: So you were an early DJ. LEVY: An early DJ, yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So this is all during the time when you were a schoolboy. Were-- LEVY: --right, I was between seven and--see, 1934, 1941 to ' ; 45. So I was, uh. FERNHEIMER: And where did you go to school during that time? LEVY: I went to Cassidy on--on Tates Creek or, uh, Cassidy Elementary. Morton Junior High right next door. And then Henry Clay. FERNHEIMER: And during this time can you tell me a little bit about your parents' ; relationship to Judaism or your family? If there were family rituals or, uh, talk to me a little bit about that. LEVY: Well, they were--(laughs)--kind of toward between being, uh, semi-Orthodox and they were--most of my mother' ; s friends were at the temple. So they put me in both those places. I went to Sunday school at the temple. And I went to Hebrew school at the synagogue, heder. And when we--some days we would go to temple for the first day of Rosh Hashanah, and that' ; s all they ever did. And then we' ; d go to shul for the second day, because they had two days. FERNHEIMER: Right. LEVY: Yom Kippur we always went to the synagogue. It was the one on Maxwell Street. FERNHEIMER: Right. And what was--what was heder like, uh, at the synagogue? Was-- LEVY: --it was-- FERNHEIMER: --the synagogue was Orthodox at that time? Or more Orthodox? LEVY: Uh, no, I' ; d say b-- closer to Conservative but yeah, they called themselves Orthodox. There were only two or three people in each class. (laughs) Sometimes only--the only one there. And you went, uh, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. After school. FERNHEIMER: And so this was after school. LEVY: Yeah. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. FERNHEIMER: And what did you learn in heder? LEVY: Hebrew. How to read Hebrew. FERNHEIMER: And anything else? LEVY: That' ; s all--well, I probably did but I forgot what else, you know, a little history, a little Jewish history and things like that, and then, uh, about what the prayers were w-- on the holidays. And, uh. FERNHEIMER: What was-- LEVY: --and of course you--you did that also to get your bar mitzvah. To study for the bar mitzvah later. FERNHEIMER: And so since you were--your family went to both the temple and the synagogue, where did you do your bar mitzvah? Or-- LEVY: --I ended up being confirmed at the temple and bar mitzvahed at the synagogue. FERNHEIMER: And did confirmation take place at age thirteen when a bar mitzvah would take place? Or was it later? LEVY: Can' ; t remember. I think it was later. Yeah, it was later. Yes. FERNHEIMER: Did they even do bar mitzvah, uh, or they only did confirmation at the temple? LEVY: No. No. The temple only did--yeah. The s-- at the shul is where the bar mitzvahs were. That was thirteen. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember any of your schoolmates or classmates from that time, who they were? LEVY: Jewish ones? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Yeah. Uh, Alan Bloomfield. Ivan Goldfarb. Sandy Bederman. Marylin Bederman. Uh, Jack Miller. Uh, shoot. Wish I practiced up on. Trying to think who else. Uh, wait a minute. I' ; ll think of her name. Her father was in the photograph business. Uh, Myra Michaels (??). Uh. FERNHEIMER: And these were all in your class or-- LEVY: --mm. No, they--no, they weren' ; t in my class but they were-- FERNHEIMER: --cl-- LEVY: --a year or two one way or the other. Should have practiced up on names there. FERNHEIMER: Oh, that' ; s okay. Uh, anything that comes to you after you can-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --let me know. That' ; s not a problem. Uh, so tell me about your--your parents. They had--they were in both the temple and the synagogue. That' ; s pretty--was it unusual or-- LEVY: --yeah. Well, my mother wanted me to go to temple Sunday school. And-- FERNHEIMER: --why was that important to her? LEVY: I guess because a lot of her friends' ; kids were there. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: I suppose. Uh, she never told me. My sister also went temple Sunday school but she didn' ; t get bar mitzvahed--bat mitzvahed. So she only, uh. FERNHEIMER: So she didn' ; t go to heder. LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Was it only boys in heder at the time? LEVY: Yes. All, uh, all boys. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And did your family go to--so you described they did services one day at-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --temple and one day at-- LEVY: --well, the High Holidays were both--both at the shul, at the synagogue. FERNHEIMER: Both at the shul. LEVY: Both days. FERNHEIMER: What about Fridays? Or Friday-- LEVY: --sometimes it was at temple and then Saturday morning at the synagogue. Friday night at the temple and Saturday morning at the synagogue. FERNHEIMER: And did they keep the restaurant open on the Sabbath? LEVY: I think they did. I' ; m not sure but I think so. FERNHEIMER: Uh, I' ; m going to ask a question about--did they have any--was there kosher meat or were they interested in that at-- LEVY: --no. Wasn' ; t kosher meat. He had a friend. Uh, it was, uh, what do you call it? Meat was not available to everybody. W-- there was a, uh. FERNHEIMER: Because of the war or-- LEVY: --yeah, because of the war. But my father had a friend that he knew from when he was in the poultry business that worked at a building that sold wholesale meat all over the state. And that guy would--that was the meat that I carried down the street some days. FERNHEIMER: In the wagon. LEVY: In the wagon. But not every day. Uh, I mean he--he--he brought it down sometimes. But that' ; s how he--because hard to get red meat during the war. FERNHEIMER: Right. LEVY: So and this w-- restaurant was based on red meat. Hamburgers and steaks. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: The Barbecue place. LEVY: Yeah. Barbecue. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Wow. LEVY: It wasn' ; t barbecued. It was just cooked in the back in the kitchen. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So they--they just used the name. LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: But it wasn' ; t the actual barbecue. Uh, can you tell me a little bit about Judaism and your family? What was the role of Jewish tradition in your childhood or what your parents taught you about Judaism? LEVY: I think my grandparents talked to me more than my parents did. Yeah, they--they, uh, they had us do all the holidays. And most of the meals for the holidays were at my grandmother' ; s, uh. FERNHEIMER: And she was in Lexington or in Winchester? LEVY: Yeah. No, here. FERNHEIMER: Here. LEVY: Uh, it was, uh, my mother' ; s mother. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: My--on my father' ; s side my grandmother died about a year after I was born. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And then a few years later he moved here with his daughter, Tanya Herman. She was married to a man named Nathan Herman. Tanya was the sister of my father. And they moved here. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember what year that was? LEVY: Uh. FERNHEIMER: Or what brought-- LEVY: --it was in the forties. I mean like I' ; m not sure. It was during the war. FERNHEIMER: What brought them to Lexington? LEVY: The business that he was in over there didn' ; t work out. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Huh. What was the business? LEVY: He was in some kind of shoe business. But he didn' ; t do it very long. FERNHEIMER: And did he try it here in Lexington as well or no? LEVY: He went to work for one of the place--for Brown' ; s Bootery, which was another Levy that owned a shoe business. FERNHEIMER: But not the same Levys. LEVY: No. Different--different Levys. Also a Hyman Levy. FERNHEIMER: Uh, I--from what I understand there were three Hyman Levys-- LEVY: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --in town at the time. LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: So one was your family. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Hyman Levy. One was Chicken Hyman, w-- LEVY: --Chicken Hyman was my father. FERNHEIMER: Chicken Hyman was your father. LEVY: Shoe Hyman was, uh, uh, the store called Brown' ; s Bootery on Main Street. FERNHEIMER: So that was Shoe Hyman. LEVY: That was Shoe Hyman. No, no, that was Fat Hyman. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: Shoe Hyman w-- worked for a store called--owned by the Meyerses. And he ran the sh-- he did the shoes in their store. He was Shoe Hyman. And Hyman at, uh, Brown' ; s Bootery was Fat Hyman. FERNHEIMER: And the Meyerses, were they also Jewish? LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: M-E-Y-E-R or M-E-- LEVY: --M-Y-E-R-S I think. FERNHEIMER: M-Y-E-R-S. Uh. LEVY: They were on Main Street. They had a high-class clothing store. High-priced I guess clothing store. In the block where Purcell' ; s used to be. FERNHEIMER: Where what used to be? LEVY: Uh, used to be a department store called Purcell' ; s. It was between Mill Street and Broadway where the Hilton is now. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What other shops do you remember that were Jewish-owned downtown at the time? LEVY: Oh my gosh. Let' ; s see. There was, uh, uh, Kaufman' ; s which was owned by the Strauses. FERNHEIMER: And what did they sell? LEVY: Uh, men' ; s clothes mainly. FERNHEIMER: And where was that? LEVY: It was on Main Street between Upper and sh-- and Limestone. Then there was Ben Snyder' ; s, which was at the corner of Main and Lime. Then there was Wolf Wile' ; s. FERNHEIMER: What did Ben Snyder' ; s sell? LEVY: It was a department store. They sold-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- LEVY: --women' ; s clothes, men' ; s clothes, uh, everything a small depart-- a small Macy' ; s. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: A mini Macy' ; s? LEVY: Very sm-- a mini Macy' ; s, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And who owned that? LEVY: That was, uh[MC4]. FERNHEIMER: Was that the Snyders or was that someone else? LEVY: No. It was--oh, I know it, I can' ; t remember. Str-- FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come back to you. LEVY: Then there was Wolf Wile' ; s. FERNHEIMER: W-E-I-L? LEVY: W-I-L-E-S. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And what was that? LEVY: That was, uh, also higher-price, uh, clothes, women' ; s and men' ; s clothes. FERNHEIMER: And was that owned by Wile? LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Owned by the Wiles. FERNHEIMER: And where was that? Was it the next-- LEVY: --it' ; s in, uh, uh, same block that the Hilton is in. (laughs) Between Mill Street and Short Street. Uh, Mill Street and Broadway. Then it moved. Wolf Wile' ; s moved up next to where the Union Station was. FERNHEIMER: Close to the restaurant your parents owned? LEVY: Yeah, but it was after. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: After the war. And, uh, let' ; s see. There was another clothing store. Well, the Wennekers had a shoe store. And then the--another clothing store was mainly women' ; s was Hymson' ; s, H-Y-M-S-O-N-S. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s Evelyn and Maurice? LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And where was--where was Wenneker' ; s and Hymson' ; s located? LEVY: Hymson' ; s was in the block between Lime and, uh, the viaduct, uh, Walnut. North side of Main Street. No. South. Yeah, north side of Main Street. FERNHEIMER: And Wenneker' ; s? LEVY: Wenneker' ; s was right next door to the Strand Theatre, which is about two bl-- two doors down from Wolf Wile' ; s and three doors away from the Barbecue restaurant. FERNHEIMER: So pretty close. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: You must know that one pretty well. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: You' ; d take your wagon past there. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Any other shops that you recall? That' ; s quite a bit. LEVY: Uh, there were more. FERNHEIMER: Did the Millers have a shop then? LEVY: Well, there was a Miller' ; s that had a jewelry, uh, repair place. FERNHEIMER: Is that the same as Jack Miller or a different Miller? LEVY: No, that' ; s different. His father I think was a lawyer, I. J. was a lawyer. FERNHEIMER: So the jewelry repair. LEVY: Yeah. There were more Jewish stores. I' ; m trying to think who else. If I' ; d been prepared, uh. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. We can come back to this. LEVY: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Uh, uh, uh. LEVY: There were a whole bunch of them. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: On Main. The Rosenbergs were on--well, depends. There were three Rosenberg f--, uh, three Rosenberg stores. They were brothers but they had three different stores. Or cousins. FERNHEIMER: What kind of stores were they? W-- is one tradit-- LEVY: Well, Joe Rosenberg was on Upper Street across the street from my grandfather' ; s pawnshop and they had a pawnshop and jewelry store. And, uh, it was on Upper between Water and Main. Between the railroad tracks and Main. And then let' ; s see. The--another Rosenberg was where the KU building--where the--it was at Limestone and Vine Street. FERNHEIMER: Where the utility building-- LEVY: Where the K-- k-- Kentucky Utilities was. Yes, where they tore that down. FERNHEIMER: And what was that? LEVY: It was a jewelry store. FERNHEIMER: Another jewelry store. LEVY: Right. Rosenb-- and then there was another Rosenberg on North Lime between Main and Short. So there were one, two, three Rosenbergs. But only one of them was in the pawn business and that' ; s the one on Upper Street. Joe Rosenberg' ; s parents. FERNHEIMER: And you mentioned your grandfather was also in the pawn business. LEVY: Yeah. That--when I was six or seven every day pawnshop had to turn in a list of people that pawned something and what it was. Well, my grandfather couldn' ; t write English at the time. And I was only six or seven. Uh, I know I was in elementary school. And he would have me come downtown and t-- and have me write up the police report which was picked up every day. A funny thing happened there. The guy that later became chief of police was the guy who came every day and picked up the report. Or every other day and picked up the report. Later he became the chief of police. FERNHEIMER: Who was that? LEVY: Think it was Hale. Uh, daggone. FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come to you. LEVY: So he always later on in life would always kid me when I' ; d see him somewhere. Says, " ; You know what his first job was? Writing a police report for me, and I couldn' ; t read it." ; (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: " ; I' ; d have to ask him what did he write here." ; Uh, uh, he t-- he did that several places where I was in a group where the--he was speaking or talking or something. FERNHEIMER: And what--what did your grandfather speak? What was his first language? LEVY: Yiddish. FERNHEIMER: Yiddish. LEVY: Yeah. And he spoke English sort of, yeah, but-- FERNHEIMER: --did he, uh, did they speak Yiddish in your family? LEVY: When they didn' ; t want us to know what they were saying. FERNHEIMER: Did you learn at all? LEVY: A little but not--not a lot. FERNHEIMER: A bissel? LEVY: Yeah, a bissel, right. FERNHEIMER: Uh, are there any other memories from your childhood that you' ; d like to share? What was school like? Uh, were there other Jewish children in your elementary school class? LEVY: Uh, Bloomfield was the only one I think. Everybody else was in another school. (laughs) There were others but elementarywise that' ; s all I' ; m going to remember. Junior high some of the girls. Trying to think who. Should have gotten prepared. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s all right. Do you--do you remember feeling--did you know that you were Jewish? Did you feel different? Did you-- LEVY: --oh yeah, my grandparents made sure that I felt different. Even though my mother had me go to temple Sunday school, my grandmother and grandfather said, " ; He' ; s also going to get bar mitzvahed." ; (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Why was that so important to them? LEVY: Guess because they were semi-Orthodox but not--not really Orthodox Orthodox w-- FERNHEIMER: --how did--sorry, go on. LEVY: They wanted to make sure I stayed Jewish. FERNHEIMER: That was really important to them. LEVY: Yes. Very. My grandmother had all the holidays. And she would invite friends for each of them. And, uh, in fact when I got married that instruction she gave Sara. It' ; s going to be your job to take care of everybody on the holidays. (laughs) And she took it very seriously. She took her--took her back in the bedroom and this is before we got married. We were engaged. Said, " ; I want you to understand now what you' ; re going to get into." ; FERNHEIMER: Wow. So this was your grandmother was very-- LEVY: --yeah, yeah. FERNHEIMER: So, uh, and the instructions she gave were to do holidays and-- LEVY: --do hol-- when I' ; m not--when I' ; m no longer here you invite the family for all the holidays. Cook food for them. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. How many other Jewish families were at the temple and at the synagogue at the time? LEVY: I' ; m not sure. I' ; d say--I' ; m not sure. Th-- there were about probably twenty, twenty-five kids in the Sunday school classes. FERNHEIMER: And that was from ages what to what? LEVY: First grade to sixth grade. Well, yeah. Sixth, how old are you? Twelve, thirteen, till you were thirteen, so yeah. Maybe till seventh grade. FERNHEIMER: So that was at the temple. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And then at the-- LEVY: --where they confirmed. FERNHEIMER: Right. And at synagogue was it only--it was only boys? They only did heder? Or did they do anything for girls? LEVY: Right. No girls. FERNHEIMER: No girls. LEVY: At that time. Later on they did. But no, it was all boys. FERNHEIMER: And so how many young boys were-- LEVY: Three or four in each. FERNHEIMER: So much smaller, uh. LEVY: Much. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And is there any particular memory that stands out to you from that time that you' ; d like to share about your childhood or holiday or-- LEVY: --well, I--what I remember mostly is having to go to both places for the holidays. I got, uh, uh, I would go, uh, Rosh Hashanah Eve to temple and then the next day to synagogue. And of course had to walk from Fontaine Road down to Maxwell Street and back. So I remember walking that long distance. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, it was probably pretty warm because-- LEVY: --uh, some days, yeah, some days it was raining. But we walked it every time. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And, uh, uh, what were services like? Were there a lot of families in attendance at that time? LEVY: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the--the synagogue would pretty much fill up. If you didn' ; t get there early you' ; d have to stand in the back. FERNHEIMER: And were there people standing? LEVY: Oh yeah, for--for the h-- for the High Holidays. Not--not for Shabbos but for High Holidays. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Is there, uh, now that we' ; ve talked a little bit about, uh, your childhood, uh, can you tell me a little bit about your experiences here at UK? Uh, I know-- LEVY: --came to UK in ' ; 51, 1951. FERNHEIMER: What, uh, what made you decide to come to UK? What were your--what was your major and what were your-- LEVY: --the cost made me go to UK, because it was not very much money then. I think if I' ; m not--I could be wrong but I think it was about $1,200 a year, and I was living in town, so I wasn' ; t living in the dorms. FERNHEIMER: So you stayed with your parents. LEVY: Yeah. I stayed home. So I' ; d say that' ; s why I went to UK. (laughs) The cost. FERNHEIMER: And what did you study here? LEVY: Commerce, business in, uh, in White Hall. FERNHEIMER: And what was--what was your typical day as a student like as a business student, commerce student? LEVY: Well, you had, uh, maybe--depended on the day. Three to five classes. Some days more--more hours than the other. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday were more hours than Tuesday and Thursday. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Almost the exact opposite of now. Most-- LEVY: --yeah, yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --people like to study Tuesday, Thursday. LEVY: Yeah. L-- the classes were, yeah, most of them, most of the classes were Monday, Wednesday, Friday. But there were some that were Tuesday and Thursday but not Saturday. Uh, what was the subject we were on there? FERNHEIMER: Just your typical day. LEVY: Oh. FERNHEIMER: Where did you eat? Did you eat on campus? LEVY: Eat. FERNHEIMER: Or at home? LEVY: Uh, no. I ate breakfast at home and then the student union for lunch and sometimes student union for dinner depending on if I had a late class. Well, it was two dinners. (laughs) A snack. A snack dinner at the student union and a full dinner at home by the time I got there. Uh, c-- because, uh, most of the time, uh, I caught a, uh, had to catch a--I lived at home. I didn' ; t live in the fraternity house. So I had to catch a bus back home. S-- sometimes the buses were not--I' ; d miss it or--and, uh, sometimes I' ; d walk all the way from campus to home. FERNHEIMER: Uh, and what did you do to relax while you were a student? LEVY: Hm. Went to the fraternity house. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: H-- how did you get involved with the fraternity? With--tell me about your experiences there. Which fraternity was it? LEVY: ZBT. That was the only Jewish fraternity here. And most of the other fraternities wouldn' ; t take any Jewish in--in them anyway. Uh, s-- we, uh, on days that I didn' ; t have a lot of classes that' ; s where I' ; d go. I' ; d go to the fraternity house on Tuesday and Thursday for example. I had more open hours. So it was on State Street and I' ; d go up there and loaf. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Loaf. LEVY: In between classes. Uh, well, I' ; d see some of the guys coming in. Sometimes had lunch there. The housemother would make lunch for us. FERNHEIMER: W-- what was a typical lunch at the fraternity house? LEVY: Just a sandwich or soup. Yeah, it was--it was about it. Maybe a piece of fruit. That was about it. FERNHEIMER: And who were--who were the other brothers? What--how did you get involved with Z-- ZBT? LEVY: Well, a year ahead of me was another Lexingtonian, Ivan Goldfarb. And he was already in the fraternity. And think if that--he was the only one from Lexington. But he--we lived only a half a block apart on--off of Fontaine. He lived on Sycamore and I lived on Fontaine. So I knew him growing up. And he forced me into the fraternity. (laughs) Towards the fraternity anyway. And, uh, Jack Miller came a year or two behind us. Two years behind us I guess. There was, uh, Sandy Bederman was a Lexington guy. So there were--there were several Lexington. Think who else. M-- most--so that' ; s all of the Lexington people that were in it. The others were from Louisville or New York. FERNHEIMER: And did you Lexingtonians know each other beforehand from the Jewish community? LEVY: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Jack was at the temple. I knew him there. Ivan was at the temple. I knew him there. I knew them through Sunday school. Alan Bloomfield. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Was also--they were all temple members though. They weren' ; t synagogue members. The boys I knew at--Sandy Bederman at the shul. And there were the Wenn--, uh, Jim--Jim Wenneker was also at temple. He was a year ahead of me. He was in the fraternity. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s Wenneker, Wenneker shoes? LEVY: Yes. Yeah. His father, Al Wenneker, and my father, Hyman Levy, were partners later on. They had a Howard Johnson Motor Lodge here. And the two of them owned it. That was my later job in college. (laughs) Working in the motel. The desk at Howard Johnson' ; s. And going to Howard Johnson conventions. And--and there was a guy out of Louisville who owned the--the restaurant part. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember who that was? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Another Jewish guy or-- LEVY: --no, no, he wasn' ; t Jewish. But he had--he had the franchise for the Howard Johnson restaurant. It was on Limestone, Nicholasville Road I guess you' ; d call it. It' ; s where, uh, Zandale Shopping Center-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. LEVY: My father and Wenneker built the first. That was Zandale Center. They built that. And the motel was next door where Walgreens is and a vacant lot now. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) And so you worked there through college? LEVY: Yeah. And part-time in high school. Yeah, sometimes cleaning rooms. Sometimes doing the laundry. And sometimes working the desk. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: --and then both--I don' ; t know if I should put this in. You can block something out if it' ; s not supposed to be here, right? There were people who--men who were meeting women at the rooms and they would sh-- pay me $5 to shut up. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Oh. So-- LEVY: --and never tell. FERNHEIMER: So were they-- LEVY: --so embarrassing job. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) I imagine so. M-- when you say they were meeting women, were they meeting women not their wives? Were they meeting women, uh. LEVY: Right, not--not their wives. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I imagine that you learn a lot working at the Howard Johnson. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Did you encounter folks from synagogue or temple ever? LEVY: Sometimes, yeah. Can' ; t tell you who though. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I' ; m not asking. But-- LEVY: --because they wanted a special rate. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Oh, really? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: A discount for the confidentiality? LEVY: Because only a few hours. FERNHEIMER: Oh. LEVY: Not going to stay all night. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I see. LEVY: I think you ought to blank that out. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Well, we can revisit that at the end of the interview if you like. Uh, can--I want to circle back to the, uh, fraternity though. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit, uh, about--so I heard about some of the brothers who were in the fraternity at the time. What--what did--what did you all do in the fraternity? What were some of the activities? Uh, were there any other student organizations that you were involved in? Tell me about social life as a college student here at UK. LEVY: Yes. Uh, I was in, uh, uh, what did they call it? If you had been in the boy scouts they had some kind of group that met maybe once or twice a month. FERNHEIMER: Was it Eagle Scouts? Or no? LEVY: No, you didn' ; t have to be an Eagle. Just if you were in the boy scouts. They would meet in the student union building. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: The--I don' ; t remember the name of it. And it may not even have been an official--(laughs)--thing. But we met there. Uh, Hillel. The--most of the time the Hillel. We' ; d meet in the student union but sometimes on Sundays we' ; d go to temple--to the temple, where we could get food. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So you--you met in the student union when for Hillel? Were there--do you recall that there were dances sponsored by Hillel? LEVY: We had dances but I' ; m not sure if it was Hillel or not. That' ; s when my wife chased me. FERNHEIMER: We' ; re going to get to that. LEVY: Uh, what else were the fraternity boys in? There were--there was a wide variety of, uh, courses that the guys at the fraternity were in. Some in engineering, some in business, some premed, uh, they didn' ; t call it premed, they were chemistry or whatever, they didn' ; t have a medical school or premed course here. But that' ; s where they were headed. Uh. FERNHEIMER: And so was there a lot of overlap between the, uh, students who were involved with the fraternity ZBT and--and Hillel? How many students were involved in Hillel? Do you recall? LEVY: Oh, I' ; d say twenty to twenty-five, counting the girls, yeah. Uh, really I' ; d say that' ; s about--sometimes there were only ten or twelve of us at meeting. FERNHEIMER: And what did you discuss at those meetings for Hillel? LEVY: Oh, the rabbi would make--temple rabbi would make a talk. And sometimes they would invite, uh, somebody from out of town, the--one of the Jewish organizations that they wanted us to join when we grow up--(laughs)--or when we graduate. You know, somebody would come from B' ; nai B' ; rith and, uh, different organizations would have a speaker. FERNHEIMER: And who was the rabbi at the time? Was it Rabbi--at the temple. LEVY: Uh. FERNHEIMER: It wasn' ; t Grafman, right? Or was it? LEVY: Grafman was here but, uh, I don' ; t think he--while I was in school I don' ; t think that' ; s--I don' ; t remember the name. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. LEVY: Picture him. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. What did he look like? LEVY: Uh, it went away. Shoot, I should remember. FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come back. LEVY: Could have practiced. FERNHEIMER: You' ; re doing great. Uh, so Hillel meetings. There was a talk by the rabbi. And a speaker from one of these Jewish organizations. LEVY: Yeah. And then--and then sometimes we would practice d-- do a little play. FERNHEIMER: Oh, really? LEVY: Yeah. Do a-- FERNHEIMER: --tell me about these plays. LEVY: Well, we just would meet with some of the girls that, you know, and they would--we' ; re going to do a thing of a musical or just not really professional, just, uh, somebody could play the piano or play and then we' ; d pret-- sing. (laughs) Or some of the girls would dance. FERNHEIMER: And who--was there an audience or was this just to-- LEVY: --the students. FERNHEIMER: The students? LEVY: Yeah. Hillel students. (laughs) Hillel kids. FERNHEIMER: But there were only twenty or thirty of the Hillel kids. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Was there like five or six performing? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And did you take turns or did you try out or-- LEVY: --yeah. Took turns. Jack Miller may remember more about that. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember anything about a Hillel debating club? Or debating society? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Harriett Rose mentioned something about a traveling Hillel debate society. LEVY: May have been before me. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Or may have been after. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, I know she was before but-- LEVY: --I don' ; t remember, yeah. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m very curious. LEVY: But while she was in school you mean? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Yeah. I don' ; t think they had it when I was there. FERNHEIMER: Do you recall--was debating big on campus at the time just in general or-- LEVY: --not that I remember. But I may not have been in that group. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So--so you had these meetings. And was there a s-- like a social component to Hillel? Obviously if you were-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --dancing and singing and kind of just hanging out. LEVY: Uh, once or twice a year they' ; d have some kind of dance. Uh, but it would be at temple, not at UK. UK-- FERNHEIMER: --w-- do you know why it was there? LEVY: Well, uh, we may have had some synagogue, but I don' ; t, uh, first off my head comes why we didn' ; t--I think we were more Reform Jews than, uh, what we called Orthodox, but we weren' ; t Orthodox at the shul. (laughs) But there were more Reform guys and girls at--at campus Jewish. FERNHEIMER: About how many Jewish students do you think were on campus at the time? LEVY: Fifty maybe. Maybe--maybe less. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: I' ; m not sure. FERNHEIMER: And were most of them in either the fraternity or I know there was a sorority, Phi Sigma Sigma? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, were there any who were--to your knowledge who you knew were Jewish but they weren' ; t part of Hillel or they weren' ; t part of the fraternity? LEVY: No. No, I think everybody took part in one or the other, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And what was fraternity life like? What did you guys do? What--you told me about Hillel and sort of the meetings there. What--what was--what was ZBT like? Tell me about the house. Tell me about your activities. LEVY: The house--the house was on State Street. There was, uh, three, seven, eight, ten, twelve, maybe thirteen, fourteen guys. No, there were three upstairs. So about seventeen and, uh, three or four stayed in the attic. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So seventeen plus four? Twenty-one? LEVY: Let' ; s see. There was a room on the left was two. The president, three. S-- three, and that' ; s six. Four in that one, ten. Two in this one, twelve. And two or three upstairs. So it was, uh, uh, fourteen or fifteen guys living in the house. FERNHEIMER: But you never lived in the house because you lived at home. LEVY: Yeah, I lived at home. I wouldn' ; t live there. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: No? How come? LEVY: It was just too crowded. I mean the rooms were little bitty rooms and it was hardly to get out of bed you almost hit the other bed, uh, you know, it was one shower and one bathroom for all of them, so they drew numbers of who goes first. Uh, the night before you grab your number and that' ; s what number when you get to do the shower. Which was in the basement. The shower was in the basement. The bathroom was upstairs. FERNHEIMER: But there weren' ; t stalls in the basement? LEVY: Just one. FERNHEIMER: Just one. LEVY: One stall. Yeah. One shower stall. FERNHEIMER: So one shower for about fourteen, fifteen guys? LEVY: Yeah. And they' ; d fight over who was first and it would run out of hot water. And, uh, of course they worked it out also by the guys who had an early class and the ones that had later classes. So the early class guys got to go first so they could, uh, later guys or some days if you didn' ; t have a class you didn' ; t get to take a shower. (laughs) Like if your classes mostly were Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, you showered then, but Tuesday and Thursday you didn' ; t get to, unless you did it late before you went to bed or something, you know. I mean I' ; m sure they took a shower, but not before class. May have done it in the evening, not as many were taking showers as they did in the morning. FERNHEIMER: What else? Was there a space for folks to congregate not in the itty-bitty rooms? Was there like a social space? LEVY: There was a living room and a dining room in the house. Uh, and they had a housemother who made them--cooked all the meals, with help from some of the guys each week would help her. So there was a living room, dining room. With a little room off to the side like a den where they studied. Was--house is still there. It' ; s on State Street. FERNHEIMER: Oh, it' ; s still there. LEVY: Yeah, it' ; s still there. FERNHEIMER: What number is it? LEVY: One thirteen I think. It' ; s about the--if they haven' ; t torn it down this week--well, I think UK or somebody bought the block. But--but it' ; s about the second or third house down on the right side of State Street if you' ; re coming from Nicholasville Road. It' ; s a yellow stucco house. Maybe third or fourth house down. Yeah, well, they may have torn down. So it' ; s a yellow stucco on the right side of State Street, 113 was the address. FERNHEIMER: And did they have social functions at the house as well like dances or parties? LEVY: Not at the house. Uh, those--sometimes parties. But it was too small. Most of the stuff was at student union or someplace else. FERNHEIMER: And what do you remember of the--the parties? Did they interact with other fraternities or-- LEVY: -mm-mm, no, didn' ; t interact. Well, there was a--the president would go to a meeting with the other fraternity presidents. FERNHEIMER: The interfraternity council? LEVY: Yeah, yeah, right, they would go to that. But, uh, there wasn' ; t a lot of interfraternity stuff. Uh, except if there was a--sometimes there was a competition. I' ; m trying to think what. Like softball games or something like that. They played each other. It was all--no official. It was just one of the guys would make a deal with one of the other guys in another fraternity, let' ; s play softball, you know, or let' ; s play basketball. That kind of thing. But n-- nothing, uh, official. Bowling. Did--there was a lot of bowling. FERNHEIMER: Where--where was the bowling alley? Was it in the union or-- LEVY: --no, it was, uh, well, it' ; s gone. But it was on the s-- how would I describe it? It was off Euclid across from where the Fine Arts Building is where Memorial Coliseum--(laughs)-- FERNHEIMER: --so there was a bowling alley in there? LEVY: Yeah, it was a bowling alley. No. Next door to it. FERNHEIMER: Next door. LEVY: Yeah. Right--there were some restaurants on the corner of Rose and--and--and Euclid. And then the bowling alley. FERNHEIMER: And how many guys--who--who was--who were some of your closest contacts I guess in the fraternity? Do you remember who you came in with in terms of pledge brothers or-- LEVY: --uh, see, I was the only one in my class from Lexington. From Louisville was Marty Solomon. And another fellow named Stuart Yussman. Jack Miller was behind us. Uh, Ivan Goldfarb. FERNHEIMER: He was your class? LEVY: He was a year ahead. FERNHEIMER: A year ahead. LEVY: Of me. Uh, the Lexingtonians, I think that was about--oh, Sandy Bederman. He was same year as Ivan, so two years ahead of me. FERNHEIMER: How many brothers were in the fraternity total at about that time? LEVY: I' ; d say sixteen or eighteen. That' ; s a guess. See what everybody else says. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Well, we can also look in the--in the Kentuckians and the yearbooks and pull out the number. LEVY: Yeah. Sixteen, eighteen, yeah, uh, think less than twenty. FERNHEIMER: And how--how did the fraternity impact your Jewish identity or the way you thought about yourself? LEVY: Oh, very much. Very much so. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about that? LEVY: In what way? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, tell me. LEVY: Well, just being with--when you' ; re in Lexington, I only had three Jewish friends. About four is all there were. So that was a big deal to have that many guys that, you know, could be friends. And then there--the sorority, the girls were from out of town. Except for one or two. Uh, so it was more of a Jewish life than you really had. Jewish life in a way that you' ; re doing things with Jewish people. (laughs) Is what I mean. Not, uh. FERNHEIMER: And did--was there an emphasis on holidays or anything like that in the fraternity? Or did they go--did--did the house go as a house to either temple or synagogue? LEVY: They didn' ; t go as a house. But all went one place or the other. Yeah. Most everybody did. Some didn' ; t. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And how many--so you said there was a handful of folks from Louisville and Lexington and the--where did the rest of the--the brothers come from? You mentioned New York. LEVY: New York. New York. Uh, let' ; s see. Pittsburgh or Philadelphia, I can' ; t remember. Pennsylvania. Then there was, uh, from, uh, Chicago. Trying to think of the names. If I had the names. Uh, m-- b-- n-- very few from the West. Most East. FERNHEIMER: So, uh. LEVY: And North. FERNHEIMER: And why did they end up coming up to UK? Do you-- LEVY: --I think the ones from the big cities came because it was cheaper. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Even paying--(laughs)--even paying to get them down here, you know, train or bus or whatever was a whole lot less money than going to a school in Chicago or Philadelphia or, uh, uh, that' ; s my assumption. Uh, nobody ever said I guess. You know, you' ; re not going to say, " ; Oh, I came here because it' ; s cheap." ; (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Right. LEVY: Why did DuBow say he came to Kentucky? FERNHEIMER: I' ; m trying to remember. I know, uh, a couple of folks talked about the quotas in the East and, uh, the quotas were-- LEVY: --yeah. Yeah. That too. Yeah. Was easier to get into UK. FERNHEIMER: Uh. Um-hm. LEVY: Yeah, yeah, that' ; s true. Gradewise and everything I guess. FERNHEIMER: I think DuBow had some family connections here in the hat business if I recall. Uh. LEVY: Well, his father was in the hat business and the Meyerses had a store where they sold hats. And well, there were several stores here that sold hats. So that may have been--they must have been friends of his father, whatever, and that may have got him here. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. It' ; s been a while. I have to relisten. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, so going back, you said, uh, it was really different to have this kind of large group of folks who were Jewish. LEVY: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, and so was--would you say that Jewish life on c-- how would you say Jewish life on campus compared to your Jewish life in Lexington where you grew up in the temple and the synagogue? LEVY: Jewishwise only because you had more Jewish friends. But I don' ; t think it was--religiouswise I don' ; t think it added anything, the fraternity. I don' ; t think that added any religious meaning. Because it was always a battle to get everybody to go to synagogue or temple with you. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So they were more interested in hanging out and-- LEVY: --yeah. Yeah. They did like going to Hillel. Hillel meetings. But of course that may have been because they got a meal. FERNHEIMER: So there was a meal in the student union or only when they were at the temple? LEVY: Temple. FERNHEIMER: And who provided the meal? The sisterhood or-- LEVY: I don' ; t know. (laughs) Somebody did. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: I don' ; t really--I don' ; t really know. FERNHEIMER: --some things don' ; t change, that' ; s how you get students to activities. LEVY: I don' ; t even remember if we had to pay for anything. Uh, I don' ; t remember. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: Probably had to pay something I would think. But-- FERNHEIMER: --so it sounds like Hillel is one of the things that took you off campus when you were-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --a student. Uh. LEVY: Took me--well, I lived off campus too. But I came to campus every day. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. What--what--did you have any experiences with, uh, anti-Semitism on campus? LEVY: Only the fraternities that wouldn' ; t let any Jews in. (laughs) But nothing, uh, you know, bad. I mean we knew it, it was acceptable, and didn' ; t want to get in there anyway. FERNHEIMER: And what about growing up in Lexington? Did you have--can you describe any experiences with, uh. LEVY: Anti-Semitic, I didn' ; t run into anything. Really didn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: Not in the restaurant or the--all the stores? LEVY: No. Really didn' ; t run into anything. FERNHEIMER: Why do you think that was? LEVY: I don' ; t know, now that you ask. It' ; s, uh, I guess there were places we stayed away from but I don' ; t remember where they were, but it was told to stay away from. (laughs) But I don' ; t remember even where they were. FERNHEIMER: Because of the fear that there would be-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --a negative experience? LEVY: Yeah, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, what was your impression of Jewish life in Lexington at that time when you were a college student or--or earlier? LEVY: In what way? When you say-- FERNHEIMER: --was it--that' ; s a good question back. Uh. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m trying not to lead you anywhere in particular. LEVY: No. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: But I guess was it a positive thing? Was it, uh, a strong thing? Did you like being part of--was it-- LEVY: --yes. Oh yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --big, small, uh. LEVY: No, I liked--I liked--that was the best thing about the fraternity is you got involved in a lot of Jewish stuff because a lot of the guys would do it. FERNHEIMER: So can you give me an example of the kinds of things you' ; d get involved in? LEVY: Well, Hillel was one, uh. FERNHEIMER: So you found out about Hillel from the fraternity? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: You didn' ; t know about it from temple? LEVY: No. No, I don' ; t think so. FERNHEIMER: And what was the benefit or the difference between the activities that Hillel put on and the activities that the fraternity put on? LEVY: Well, the fraternities wasn' ; t Jewish coordinated. It was either sports or--or games or, you know, that kind of thing. It wasn' ; t--wasn' ; t--wasn' ; t religious. FERNHEIMER: But Hillel did have more of a religious aspect? LEVY: Well, because everybody was Jewish and they usually--the speaker or whatever they had was something to do with Judaism. FERNHEIMER: Did Israel ever come up then? LEVY: Probably did, but I don' ; t remember it being very much. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Till after that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, what were the highlights of your time as a student at UK? LEVY: Meeting my wife. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Tell me about that. LEVY: I guess that was the main, uh, main highlight of my college life. Sara, I didn' ; t know this till we were married five or six years. She' ; s already told you the story? FERNHEIMER: I' ; ve heard some versions of the story but I want to hear your version. LEVY: She--she came to--she came to campus. Well, uh, Ivan Goldfarb was dating her sister and they lived in Williamson, West Virginia. FERNHEIMER: How did Ivan meet her sister Sonia? LEVY: Here at school. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And one time Ivan and Sonia invited me to go to Williamson to meet her sister, and I met her. And then a year later-- FERNHEIMER: --how old were you at the time? LEVY: So it would have been, uh, let' ; s see. Seventeen, eighteen, eighteen or nineteen. FERNHEIMER: And she was about-- LEVY: --two years younger, seventeen--sixteen, seventeen. FERNHEIMER: Sixteen or seventeen. LEVY: They had me go down to Williamson. And met her. And then a few years later she came to UK, she says to get me. Of course I didn' ; t know any of this until we were married six or seven years that she came--we were having an argument. She said, " ; You don' ; t know what the hell is going on around you." ; What do you mean? She says, " ; Well, how do you think that, uh, when we had dinners I was always at your table? How do you think when we played bridge I was always at your table? How do you think when you got out of class in the White Hall and you were going towards student union eat lunch I was always sitting on a bench at the armory? S-- and some days you would say hello and some days you just went right on? And, uh, how do you think when we played bridge always we had bridge in the--I would be at your table?" ; And, uh, I had an uncle who let me use his car for every hour I babysat his kids. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Which uncle was this? LEVY: Sidney Gall. H-- they had, uh, a pawnshop. And I would babysit his kids when he and his wife Zelda would go out. And every hour I babysat I got to use his car. FERNHEIMER: What kind of car was it? LEVY: Was a Nash Rambler. FERNHEIMER: What year? Any idea? LEVY: It would have been, uh, uh, fifties. Yeah, early fifties. And, uh, one day Sara said, " ; How do you think I was always in the backseat when you were dating?" ; It was a girl she called Freddy (??) the Body. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about Freddy the Body. LEVY: I don' ; t even remember her real name anymore. First name was Freddy. And I had a date with her, couple, few dates. Several dates. But-- FERNHEIMER: --she was Jewish or not Jewish? LEVY: No, not Jewish. Didn' ; t intend, uh, just had to have somebody to go. She needed and I needed, if you were going to a dance or going to something you had to have a date. And, uh, Sara said, " ; How do you think I was always in the backseat of the car when you were dating Freddy or Lisa (??) or whatever?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know." ; She says, " ; Well, I would--I would ask your fraternity brothers. ' ; Erle has got a car next weekend, and they' ; re going,' ; to--to a movie or going to Joyland Park or going to--I' ; d say, ' ; Why don' ; t you ask him if we can ride with him?' ; " ; So she' ; d be in the backseat. I didn' ; t know she planned all that. " ; How do you think," ; she said, " ; when--when they had dances at--at the student union?" ; She--I didn' ; t know this. Know any of this. She would get there early and change the place cards so that she and her date would be at the same table my--my date and I. They had little place cards and she' ; s move people. Uh, she' ; d get there early and move the cards so she' ; d be sitting at my table. FERNHEIMER: So you sat at a table when you were at these dances? LEVY: Yeah, yeah, they had, you know, well, sometimes you eat dinner or lunch, depending on what it was. But she' ; d change the place cards. I didn' ; t know it. FERNHEIMER: Was this in the ballroom at the student-- LEVY: --in the student union, yeah. Well, different rooms in the student union. And then she said, " ; How do you think that when you had your uncle' ; s car I was always in the backseat with whoever it was? Seeing what you were doing with the different girls that you were dating." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know." ; She said, " ; Well, uh, I would ask your fraternity brother, one of the fraternity brothers. ' ; Erle has got a car this weekend. Why don' ; t you ask him if we can go with him?' ; To the movie or to the drive-in, uh, uh, drive-in movies. To the drive-in movie or he' ; s got a car, why don' ; t, uh, for the dance. Why don' ; t--you don' ; t want to have to catch a cab." ; Uh, so she knew everything was going on with me. I didn' ; t know any of this[MC5] until after we were married. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s--(laughs)-- LEVY: --and she told me, " ; You don' ; t know what the hell is going on around. How do you think I was always in the backseat of the car? How do you think I was always at your table?" ; She would change the place cards, I' ; d be at a different table. FERNHEIMER: And you had no idea what was going on. LEVY: No, she was--change the c-- no. She told me all this. She changed the cards so that she and her date would be at the s-- my table. She went to the registrar and asked my, uh, schedule, so that she knew. She told them she was my sister and she wanted my schedule so that she' ; d know where I was going to be. FERNHEIMER: On campus. LEVY: On campus. And she would--she knew what--when I got out for lunch and if she could she--she, uh, would sit, I don' ; t know. Uh, uh, there' ; s a building there they used to call the armory next to the student union. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Between the new White Hall, was old White Hall, but there was a building there. There was a bench out there for years. I guess it' ; s gone now. But she' ; d sit there hoping that I would ask her to go to the student union and have lunch. And some days I did and some days I didn' ; t. And sh-- to get there she had to come from the dorm, from the Fine--from the Fine Arts Building on Rose Street and run clear across campus in the time between quarter of and 12:00. I' ; m just coming down White Hall and walking very short. She' ; d get there. And I remembered after she told me that she was always sweaty and out of breath. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) LEVY: And that' ; s because she' ; d been running to get into that seat. I didn' ; t know any of this. Because she said I didn' ; t know what the hell was going on. Dances, she' ; d change the place cards so she' ; d be at--she and her date would be there. She-- FERNHEIMER: --so how long was it before you actually asked her out for legitimate reasons? LEVY: Probably a year. Yeah. I didn' ; t, uh, I told you about my uncle letting me use the car. And she--so-- FERNHEIMER: --so you--so she was riding along in the backseat and miraculously showing up at the table at the dances. LEVY: Never dawned on me. FERNHEIMER: It took a year. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Before you actually asked her out. LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: On the regular. LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: And do you remember that first date with her? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Do you have any-- LEVY: --not really, no. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember--what was your courtship like? Can you tell me about that? Once you actually were intentionally courting after[MC6]-- LEVY: --it was probably eight or nine months. Yeah, wasn' ; t very long before I said, " ; When I get out of here, let' ; s get married." ; (laughs) So-- FERNHEIMER: --do you remember how you proposed? LEVY: No. Just asked her to marry me, that' ; s the only thing, yeah. I didn' ; t get down on my knees or anything. FERNHEIMER: And then you got married sh-- right after you graduated? LEVY: Yes. Yeah, graduated in January and got married in January. End of January. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So this was nineteen fifty-- LEVY: --five. FERNHEIMER: Five. And you all--did you stay in town after graduation? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Been here ever since. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And what was your first job out of college? LEVY: First job out of college was working, uh, for my father in, uh, he had a rental property that I would help keep straight. And, uh, and I got a real estate license to try to sell houses. And, uh, I did a little bit of everything. I still worked at the pawnshop, uh. FERNHEIMER: This was your uncle' ; s pawnshop or your grandfather' ; s? Uh. LEVY: My grandfather--my grandfather' ; s. And uncle' ; s. Same--same place. FERNHEIMER: Same pawnshop? LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay, not like the Rosenbergs who had three different stores. LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: They had the one pawnshop. LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. And then--then, uh, got into building houses and the sh-- like I say the Zandale Shopping Center. And then they went--I worked at the motel when they went in--when he went into the hotel business--motel business. FERNHEIMER: And so this was after--you started in college. And did you continue to work there after college? After you' ; d gotten married? LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: At the Howard Johnson? LEVY: Yeah, there and just when, uh, when they--he would call me when somebody didn' ; t show up. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And, uh, I missed a question. Uh, I hope you' ; ll-- LEVY: --okay-- FERNHEIMER: --forgive me for going back. Uh, uh, do you have any advice that you would give to UK students today? LEVY: Mm. FERNHEIMER: Or UK Jewish students? LEVY: Try to get with them. Get with Hillel or whatever way you can keep your Jewish identity going to appreciate it and to meet other Jewish students. FERNHEIMER: Why is that so important? LEVY: Well, I just think Jewish life, marrying somebody Jewish, having kids that are Jewish is important. FERNHEIMER: So-- LEVY: --my grandmother is in my head telling me that. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. You can see her sitting there. Well, uh, you brought up family. And I want to talk a little bit now about how Jewishness has figured into your adult life. Uh, you know, so we know you married Sara. Sara is also Jewish. Uh, how did it figure into the way that you created the family you built together? Uh, uh, you told me about, you know, you went to synagogue and temple. LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Mostly because your grandparents-- LEVY: --um-hm-- FERNHEIMER: --emphasized that. Uh, how did you and Sara create a Jewish life? Or did you? LEVY: We did the same thing. We belonged to both--paid dues at both organizations. Uh, the kids went to temple Sunday school and some services we went to both. One one night and the other one the next day, the other place. Uh, because we wanted them to be Jewish. But so we--we were in b-- the kids were all involved in all the stuff at temple s-- groups, Sunday school. So more temple groups than shul groups. But we went to shul for the--for the holidays. For different holidays[MC7] but-- FERNHEIMER: --so it sounds like there was religious observance at the synagogue. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And--and social life at-- LEVY: --yeah. Social at temple, yeah. Well, but the--but sometimes we went to temple services. But most of the time it was shul services. With the kids. I' ; m talking about w-- k-- kids all went to temple Sunday school. FERNHEIMER: And tell me, you have--how many children do you have? LEVY: They--they--four. They all-- FERNHEIMER: And their names and ages or years they were born? LEVY: Laura. Laura was born in, uh, ' ; 52. Leslie was born in-- FERNHEIMER: So before you graduated? LEVY: Oh wait, no. I' ; m sorry, ' ; 56. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Yeah, Laura was born, married in ' ; 55. Laura was born in ' ; 56. Leslie was born in ' ; 58. Lisa[MC8][MC9] (??) was born in ' ; 60 and Phillip (??) was born in ' ; 61. Then we stopped. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I imagine you had your hands full. LEVY: It was hard. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: So they--they, uh, all went to temple Sunday school and t-- FERNHEIMER: --and they were confirmed or bar-- LEVY: --yeah, they were confirmed and two of them were bar mitzvahed. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: No bat mitzvahs. LEVY: Bat mitzvahed. No. Well, the--well, she had something. Leslie had--I guess it was--maybe the temple did a bar mitzvah, I don' ; t know. Just remember she did s-- some kind of-- FERNHEIMER: --bat mitzvah? LEVY: Yeah. The--the other two girls didn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: And she was the--the youngest of the daughters? LEVY: She was the--no, uh, second oldest--second oldest child. FERNHEIMER: Second oldest. LEVY: Right. She became Orthodox. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: This is the daughter who now lives in Israel? LEVY: Yes. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And, uh, was--would you s-- tell me about your social networks. Uh, you said you socialized a lot at the temple. Who were some of the families that you did the holidays with or that you hung out with? LEVY: Well, the holidays we did mostly at shul. FERNHEIMER: At the synagogue itself? LEVY: Well, at h-- I mean if we had something at home. But the temple was, uh, Bloomfield, Jack Miller, Ivan Goldfarb, uh, J-- Jimmy (??) Straus, Joe Wile, uh, did I say Wenneker? FERNHEIMER: Uh, no. LEVY: Yeah. Jim Wenneker. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Jack Miller. Uh. FERNHEIMER: So these are the people that you would spend Shabbos with or that you' ; d go, I don' ; t know-- LEVY: --no. FERNHEIMER: No. LEVY: No. I j-- I was just trying to think who it was that--Shabbos, you mean after, uh. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: Before sc-- while we were in school? Or after school? FERNHEIMER: After school. D-- did you have-- LEVY: --after school-- FERNHEIMER: --family meals? Did you invite other families or-- LEVY: --we did after the kids got a little older. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I imagine that that-- LEVY: --yeah, while they were little we didn' ; t, no. We had--she--she--she cooked for some people. Uh, I don' ; t remember who came over but the--she--some Shabbos evenings we had people. FERNHEIMER: Uh, would you say--when--how would you describe your involvement in the Jewish community? Did it move beyond the synagogue and the temple? Were there other organizations that you were involved with as an adult after college and after the fraternity? LEVY: Uh, yeah, but I don' ; t remember. Uh, B' ; nai B' ; rith for a w-- we had a B' ; nai B' ; rith for a while and then it kind of stopped and then now it' ; s--they' ; re back up again s-- FERNHEIMER: --and are you still involved today? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, gosh, I don' ; t remember. Sorry, I should have thought of-- FERNHEIMER: --that' ; s okay. Do you have a very, uh, can you describe a vivid memory of Jewish life or ritual from your adult life? LEVY: No. Ritual[MC10]. I' ; m not sure what you' ; re asking. FERNHEIMER: Uh, just a memory associated with Jewishness. It doesn' ; t have to be a ritual, uh, if there' ; s a strong one that stays-- LEVY: --well, I mean I enjoy going to High Holidays to synagogue. Uh, and some Shabboses. And, uh, of course since we were married Sara is always cooking for every holiday there is. She' ; s cooking for people. FERNHEIMER: She took your grandmother' ; s, uh, promise to heart. LEVY: Right. Sh-- right. She took her dishes. We still have all our kosher dishes for Passover. We use them every year when we have people for Passover. The dishes are in the cabinet. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. That' ; s pretty nice treasure to still have. LEVY: Yeah. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Are they glass? LEVY: China. FERNHEIMER: China. LEVY: And there' ; s some glass too, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, what was the non-Jewish community' ; s reaction to your Jewishness? Did you-- LEVY: --didn' ; t really--wherever they didn' ; t like them I didn' ; t go. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So you knew to avoid it strategically. LEVY: Yeah, yeah. I knew who--who was and who wasn' ; t. And I had a lot of friends that were not Jewish in high school. In high school mainly. FERNHEIMER: In college also or was it mostly the fraternity? LEVY: In college it was mostly fraternity, yeah, mostly Jewish. FERNHEIMER: And after college? I imagine with four children there wasn' ; t a lot going on at all except kids, but-- LEVY: --no, right, right. Yeah. And mostly Jewish friends now, yeah. Yeah, uh, Jewish life. I mean our life after we were married and had kids was still mostly Jewish. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: --except for work. FERNHEIMER: And you started telling me a little bit about work. Can you tell me? Uh, I know now you have, uh, the shop. Uh, tell me the name of the shop and how you got into the business. LEVY: Well, first I was in the building business, building houses. Motel. And then building houses. Helping with the shopping center. Uh, then I had a--they had a vacant place in the Zandale Center and I--and another partner and I, we put in a coin laundry, which three times a week we had to go get machines fixed and take the change out of all the machines and, uh. FERNHEIMER: When was this? Wh-- when did you start the coin laundry? And with whom? LEVY: Uh, man named Bill Silliman who was also a partner in some house building. He was in the drywall business. FERNHEIMER: Jewish or not Jewish? LEVY: Not Jewish. FERNHEIMER: Not Jewish. LEVY: And, uh, we--we had that coin laundry together in the shopping center. And then I helped with the motel. And then I was building houses. Well, my father was building them, I was working for him. (laughs) Put it that way. Mostly, uh, veterans, uh, who w-- who, uh, had a G-- GI Bill VA-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- LEVY: --a hundred percent loan. Didn' ; t have to have anything down. Just some--pay some closing costs. And we did several sh--, uh, subdivisions around town. Uh, uh. FERNHEIMER: And how did you move from that into the lighting business? LEVY: Well, I was in the building business and, uh, we had a--a friend of mine, DeWitt Hisle, was an accountant. FERNHEIMER: DeWitt Hisle? LEVY: DeWitt Hisle. FERNHEIMER: Witt? LEVY: DeWitt. FERNHEIMER: DeWitt. LEVY: He' ; s still here. Uh, he was in the accounting business and he, uh, called us up one time and my partner Bill Silliman and w-- he was one of my partners in the building business, had several building companies that he was a partner. One of them we called Silliman and Levy. He called up one day and said, " ; A guy that owns the lighting store wants to sell it and he' ; ll give us five years to pay him. And you guys know everybody in the building business. So I think you all ought to see about buying it from him." ; So we bought Kentucky Lighting. FERNHEIMER: This was you and Silliman. LEVY: Yeah. We bought Kentucky Lighting. FERNHEIMER: And what year was that? LEVY: Nineteen, uh, ' ; 58 or ' ; 60, somewhere along in there. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Maybe ' ; 57 s-- after-- FERNHEIMER: --after one of your--which child? LEVY: I had--already had two. So it had to be ' ; 60 or ' ; 61 that we bought--bought it. And, uh, we knew all the builders, because he was in the drywall business and I was building houses. So we wanted to furnish them, uh, lighting--lighting--light fixtures. So then on the other hand I was building houses and then, uh, built some efficiency apartments on Zandale and Lowry Lane. And then later on we built a big apartment project on Tates Creek Road we called the Greenhouse. But we sold it since then. Sara managed it. We sold it to a guy out of Philadelphia. It' ; s still there. Uh, what was the question? FERNHEIMER: Uh, just how you got into the lighting business. LEVY: Well, that' ; s how I got into it. And then in, uh, let' ; s see, about-- FERNHEIMER: --so you' ; ve owned the store since the sixties or about-- LEVY: --s--, uh, seventies, uh, seventies. FERNHEIMER: The seventies? LEVY: Yeah. Yeah, seventies, uh, yeah. And, uh, but we had a manager there until he died. And then, uh, about that time Silliman and I split up. DeWitt Hisle, DeWitt, Bill, and I. And they wanted out. So I had to buy them out over a period of years. And then after I sold the apartments I went over to Kentucky Lighting full-time. FERNHEIMER: And that was roughly when? In the-- LEVY: --uh, let' ; s see. Probably about 2000 I think or 1999 or something. Maybe--I don' ; t know. Uh, early-- FERNHEIMER: --so from the sixties or the seventies to about 2000-- LEVY: --yeah--yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --you were in business with Silliman and DeWitt? LEVY: Well, I was with--and-- FERNHEIMER: --and doing the housing-- LEVY: --my own d-- y-- doing--I built some houses in my own name. I built some with Silliman. Uh, and DeWitt was with Kentucky Lighting. So we had to have--you had to have partners because you couldn' ; t borrow--you had to borrow money to build the houses. So I always had to have somebody else cosign with me[MC11]. FERNHEIMER: Right. LEVY: To borrow the money. FERNHEIMER: Did you encounter any anti-Semitism in your business dealings or-- LEVY: --not that I' ; m aware of. I mean there were some--I was told there were some subcontractors who didn' ; t want to work for me because I was Jewish. But I didn' ; t care because they didn' ; t want to work for me, so I--(laughs)--didn' ; t bother any, you know. FERNHEIMER: And at the lighting store? LEVY: No, I haven' ; t run into any that I know of. FERNHEIMER: Uh, how have, uh[MC12], sorry I' ; m going back and forth between-- LEVY: --it' ; s all right. Um-hm-- FERNHEIMER: --your professional life and between Jewish life. How would you say that things have changed in the Jewish community--and this is going to be a hard question for you I think. LEVY: Mm. FERNHEIMER: During the time that you' ; ve been here. Because you' ; ve been here your whole life. LEVY: I think the Jewish community is much more outspoken than it was when I was younger. FERNHEIMER: About--are there particular issues that you think are-- LEVY: --well, it' ; s usually Israel. (laughs) That' ; s probably the biggest one. FERNHEIMER: And outspoken in what ways about Israel? Is Israel--tell me about the Jewish community' ; s relationship to Israel here in Lexington. LEVY: Well, there--there are some that are very pro-Israel and there are some that are not. Uh, some that--for example when they were raising, you know, different organizations were raising money, some wouldn' ; t give you a dime. They might give to the temple or the synagogue, but they wouldn' ; t give anything for any other Jewish appeals for--(laughs)--for Israel, Israel bonds. FERNHEIMER: Through Federation. LEVY: Well, there wasn' ; t a Federation till later on. I don' ; t remember what year Federation came. But prior to that different people, men and women, took on the responsibility of selling Israel bonds, uh. FERNHEIMER: When did that start would you say? Was it in the sixties? After-- LEVY: --no, I' ; d say it was in the fifties it started. Yeah, I' ; d say. Yes. FERNHEIMER: S-- so shortly after the found-- LEVY: --yeah, after they took over, yeah, Israel. Uh, yeah. It was somebody out of Cincinnati would come down and we' ; d have to hold a dinner, lunch, or something, let them talk, and then try to sell them $100 bonds or $500 bonds or a few guys $1,000 bonds. FERNHEIMER: So would you say Israel is one of the biggest kind of measuring sticks of how the community has changed? LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So from sel-- selling bonds in the 1950s to-- LEVY: --well, I mean we didn' ; t have a, uh, the what do you call it, the-- FERNHEIMER: --the Federation. LEVY: --Federation till what, fifteen, twenty years ago. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Something like that. And I think that was probably a combination of the Anti-Defamation--of Israel and fighting people that didn' ; t like Jews. (laughs) Or not fighting them but giving money to organizations that would help that. And Israel. I' ; d say Israel was one of the biggest things. FERNHEIMER: And any other ways that the Jewish community has changed in the time since you were growing up here s-- LEVY: --well, there was no Federation. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Growing up. That' ; s probably the biggest thing. And probably-- FERNHEIMER: --and how has-- LEVY: --I don' ; t know if--if attendance is up or down from when--when I was younger. It seems like shul was--when it was on Maxwell Street was always crowded. You know, for every--every event. Uh, the temple was too. In fact they--they' ; ve enlarged since it was original. Uh, hm. FERNHEIMER: So attendance, attitudes towards Israel. How would you describe the attitudes towards Israel now? Are they different in the synagogue and the temple? Can you generalize in that way or-- LEVY: --no, I really can' ; t. I mean it' ; s very strong at the synagogue. I can' ; t say whether it is or isn' ; t at the temple because the last ten or fifteen years I haven' ; t really been to anything at temple other than a B' ; nai B' ; rith meeting or some rabbi speaking or some speaker coming in and speaking. But I haven' ; t been to--probably haven' ; t been to a temple service since the kids were confirmed. (laughs) FERNHEIMER[MC13]: So now that the children have been grown up you--you spend more time at the synagogue would you say? LEVY: Yes. Yes. Uh, we only--we only belong to the synagogue. We don' ; t belong to both anymore. FERNHEIMER: Mm. How come? Why is that? LEVY: Because we wouldn' ; t be going there. We' ; re going to the synagogue. Uh, you know, events and stuff. Holidays and probably now have--we do have more friends that are synagogue. We still have some that are temple members. But m-- most of them are synagogue members. FERNHEIMER: Would you say, uh, is there still--I' ; ve heard tell of a kind of divide socially between the synagogue and the temple. Would you say it' ; s as strong now as it once was? Or did you notice this kind of divide? LEVY: Well, we knew it earlier. It was very obvious. If it is now I' ; m not--I' ; m not really aware of it. FERNHEIMER: So that' ; s another thing maybe that' ; s changed. LEVY: I mean when--when our kids were in Sunday school and going to Hebrew school too, the temple people would say, " ; What are you, crazy or something? What are you putting them through all that? You know, why are you?" ; But-- FERNHEIMER: --and why did you? Why did you maintain those two memberships? Was it-- LEVY: --I think my grandmother and grandfather. (laughs) And Sara wanted to too. If she hadn' ; t wanted to, they wouldn' ; t have had to. And the kids, my mother' ; s mother was very--great-grandmother to them. Or grandmother rather. To them. Or great-grandmother. And she loved having them on Shabbos and she would have, you know, have them for all the holidays. And that affected them I think. Two of them became Orthodox. (laughs) And I think it' ; s due to my grandparents. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: I mean the grandparents influenced having Sara and I have them do that. FERNHEIMER: That brings me to another question. Uh, how would you say your Jewishness is different from that of your parents? LEVY: Uh, my parents didn' ; t go to services as often as we do. Uh, my parents didn' ; t celebrate the hol-- the--the--the meal, uh, in other words, uh, instead of my mother having people for dinner, my grandmother did. So that kind of affected it too I guess, uh. FERNHEIMER: So it skipped your mom' ; s generation, went from-- LEVY: --yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --your grandmother to Sara. LEVY: And--and a lot of the kids who had grandparents here--that had grandparents at the synagogue, the same thing with them. They--their--their parents weren' ; t as, uh, interested in entertaining other people, having them for dinner or lunch or whatever after services or Shabbos dinner or the--the--the shul people did it way more than the temple people. FERNHEIMER: And how--has that changed over the years? Or how has it changed over the years? LEVY: I don' ; t know. I know we still do it but I, you know, we used--we used to have Shabbos--well, still do. A lot of Shabbos dinners. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Have you st-- LEVY: --and Sara always has Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and, uh, most of the holidays. FERNHEIMER: Passover. LEVY: Passover. Yeah. In fact my grandmother got s-- made her swear that she would. Gave us all her Passover dishes and pots and pans and we still use them. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s pretty amazing. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Now you started to tell me a little bit about your children. Uh, so this question might sound a little repetitive but-- LEVY: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: How does your relationship to Jewish identity and practice compare to theirs? You mentioned the two who became Orthodox. LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: Uh, what about the other two? LEVY: Well, they, uh, the one in Saint Louis, Lisa, they go to services. They don' ; t go to Friday service. They go to--to, uh, High Holidays. Different holiday services. And their kids were all confirmed. And one was bar mitzvahed. FERNHEIMER: So they belong to a Reform congregation? LEVY: Yeah, Reform. And, uh, Laura, uh, she also, they--she belonged to a Reform congregation. But she took part in a lot of the stuff at the temple. FERNHEIMER: And how would you say h-- where you--how has where you grew up and lived affected your relationship with Judaism? Living here in Lexington. LEVY: It was hard. Yeah, because there wasn' ; t many--didn' ; t have many friends that were Jewish. Uh. FERNHEIMER: And yet you still managed to marry a Jewish woman. LEVY: Yeah, that was-- FERNHEIMER: Raise four Jewish kids. LEVY: Right. Right. But it was, uh, I guess again my grandmother and grandfather pushed that into me. FERNHEIMER: So very powerful influence of your grandmother and grandfather. LEVY: Yes. Yes. Very much so. And, uh, when, uh, I was younger and during the Second World War I had to help my grandfather, which I already told you. But every night at 5:30 or 6:00 they would have a minyan around the corner and have to--I' ; d have--I' ; d have to go with him to the minyan every--four days a week. FERNHEIMER: Where was the minyan? LEVY: On--see, how I would describe it now. It was, uh, in--in, uh, a store owned by a man named Abie Grossman. And it was on--well, they' ; ve got a hole in the ground now. But Joe Rosenberg' ; s family was on the side of Upper Street where there' ; s a hole now. Across the street was where my grandfather' ; s store, Phillip Gall' ; s. And around the corner was a man named Abie Grossman who had a secondhand clothing store. And that' ; s where they met for minyans every night. FERNHEIMER: So they didn' ; t go to the synagogue, they just did it in the store. LEVY: No. Right. Sometimes even the rabbi would come down the hill and come to the--to there. But all the Jewish guys would--because there were a lot of Jewish stores. But some of them were Reform. But some were syn--, uh, synagogue. And they would meet there every--every--four days a week. Monday through Thursday. FERNHEIMER: And they had a minyan all four days? LEVY: Yeah. Yes. Yes. FERNHEIMER: Mostly from the shopkeepers. LEVY: Most of them, yeah. Sh-- all the different shopkeepers closed up at 5:30 and went to minyan. (laughs) The--the--the Orthodox ones. There wasn' ; t any Reform ones. FERNHEIMER: Did they close on Saturday as well, d-- LEVY: --no. They weren' ; t closed on Saturday. Saturday was the biggest business day. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And what about the Jewish holidays? Like Rosh Hashanah or-- LEVY: --Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur they closed. Even the Ref-- even the temple people. There was--Main Street there was nothing open. I mean there were so many Jewish stores downtown that, uh, the other stores were happy when they were closed, but they just--they were--they were, uh, two days of Rosh Hashanah and one day Yom Kippur. Now some of the temple people were open on the second day of Rosh Hashanah. But some of the shul ones didn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: And so did that impact their relationship with other businesses downtown? The fact that they closed or opened? You said the other stores were happy. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Because I guess they had more opportunity then. LEVY: Yeah, right, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Uh, w-- LEVY: --there were a bunch of Jewish-owned stores downtown. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, yeah, I' ; m glad that you listed so many of them for me. Uh, any more come to mind? LEVY: I' ; ll think about them. I' ; ll get you--finish the list. FERNHEIMER: Sounds good. LEVY: Did I get Lowenthal' ; s on there? FERNHEIMER: I don' ; t think so. Where was Lowenthal' ; s? LEVY: It was a fur store. Sold furs. It was on Main Street. FERNHEIMER: And what did they sell? LEVY: Furs. FERNHEIMER: Furs. Oh. I h-- I heard you say the first store. LEVY: Yeah, fur. FERNHEIMER: They u-- they sold furs. LEVY: Fur. Furs. Yeah. Fur. M-- mostly. I mean they had other stuff too I guess but mostly that' ; s what people went there for. FERNHEIMER: And were they owned by the Lowenthals or by someone else? LEVY: Um-hm. Yeah, Lowenthals. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: --I could make you a list. I may have left somebody off. Uh, Jewish-owned stores. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s w-- I might have you draw one for me when, uh. LEVY: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Th-- that w-- LEVY: --where they were on Main Street you mean? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Yeah, I can--I can pretty much come up with them. FERNHEIMER: That would be great. Looking back is there anything you would change about your relationship with Judaism or your Jewish identity or anything else? LEVY: No, I don' ; t think so. I' ; ve been happy with it. Two of my kids must have been. They went and stayed Orthodox. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Uh, is there anything else that I haven' ; t asked about that you would like to share? And then I have one more question that I remembered I should have asked earlier. LEVY: Give me the one more question. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: I want one more question. FERNHEIMER: How did your grandparents make it from Poland and Russia to Kentucky? How did they end up here? I should have asked this earlier. LEVY: My--my grandfather--let me think. My grandmother was from Baltimore. And somewhere in his life he was in Baltimore and met her. That' ; s how they got married. FERNHEIMER: But how did he get from--well, he--he was the first generation to come from-- LEVY: --he--he was--yeah. In my family, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And so do you know how he ended up here? LEVY: Not really. I think he was peddling and decided he liked-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- LEVY: --being up in the mountains and think coming out of Cincinnati he came down here. I guess just--don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: So peddling. And what about the other side of the family? LEVY: My father' ; s side. He--my grandf-- my father' ; s father first had a farm outside of Winchester and raised sheep and cattle. Then he opened up a clothing store in Winchester, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: And how did he land in Winchester? Do you know? LEVY: I' ; m not sure. He married--my father' ; s sister. No, that' ; s my grandfather I' ; m talking about. His daughter, uh, daughter married a guy named Nathan Herman who also lived in Winchester. So they-- FERNHEIMER: --another Jewish guy. LEVY: Yeah. And that' ; s--my grandfather on my father' ; s side lived with them for a while. And then they moved over here to Lexington. Uh. FERNHEIMER: But not sure how either one ended up here in Kentucky. LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Peddling. That' ; s-- LEVY: --yeah, that' ; s--yeah, that' ; s mostly what I know. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, yeah, that was the question I should have asked earlier. Uh, but is there anything else that you want to share, Erle? And I--I' ; ll preface this by saying if the names or any of that comes back to you afterwards we' ; ll make sure to add that in somehow. LEVY: Names of-- FERNHEIMER: --stores or, uh, things that are-- LEVY: --I got to write them down. I' ; ll have to write the stores down. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s fine. LEVY: There were a bunch. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: I mean on Rosh Hashanah Main Street was-- FERNHEIMER: --empty. LEVY: Uh, you know, every time I think about it I' ; m thinking about the women all wore heels. Y-- on Main Street when you went down there on a Saturday the women were all dressed up in dresses and high-heeled shoes. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So it was a--it was an event to go shopping downtown. LEVY: I guess. I guess. Because, uh, I can remember very well that I was always amazed at these women in their high heels on a--on a daytime, you know. FERNHEIMER: So--so was it a problem when the shoe stores closed and they couldn' ; t get them fixed? LEVY: (laughs) I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: Uh, well, if there' ; s nothing else that you' ; d like to add at this time, I want to thank you for taking time out of your afternoon. LEVY: Okay. Well, I hope I' ; ve been helpful. FERNHEIMER: This has been tremendously helpful. LEVY: Okay, good, good. FERNHEIMER: Uh, uh, w-- wonderful to hear about all the different stores downtown. Uh, serious that we' ; ll h-- we' ; ll have you draw it out. LEVY: It was. Yeah, I' ; ll try to, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And get that into the digital record. LEVY: Okay. I' ; ll try to. I' ; ll get some help from some people. FERNHEIMER: Uh, because that--yeah. Uh, plan to recruit Mike Ades and a couple others to help. LEVY: Mike will remember. He' ; ll remember a lot of places too. FERNHEIMER: And I think Janice Crane will know some. LEVY: Yeah. Mike' ; s father had--grandfather had a, uh, wholesale clothing, uh, wholesale-- FERNHEIMER: So the A-- was it called Ades? LEVY: Ades. Ades. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So that' ; s another one w-- LEVY: The building--the building, uh, it' ; s a restaurant in it, Jewish fellow owns downtown on Main Street, uh, oh gosh, uh. FERNHEIMER: Right now? LEVY: Yes. I' ; m trying to think of his name. He' ; s in-- FERNHEIMER: Oh, Natasha' ; s. No. LEVY: No. Natasha' ; s. It' ; s a big building. It' ; s on Main Street. Golly. FERNHEIMER: The tall one? The-- LEVY: --well, it--no, it' ; s about three, four stories. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Applebee' ; s is in it. FERNHEIMER: Applebee' ; s downtown. LEVY: Applebee. The company that runs Applebee' ; s. FERNHEIMER: Oh. Oh. Oh. LEVY: Is in it. It' ; s, uh, right near Kentucky Theatre across the street from the Kentucky Theatre. Up a little bit east. A redbrick building. It was wholesale. Had all kinds of wholesale stuff. That was Mike' ; s father' ; s place. FERNHEIMER: And it' ; s not off Esplanade. LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: It' ; s on past Esplanade. It was a restaurant and Jewish fellow owns it. I can' ; t--me and my memory. FERNHEIMER: Portofino? LEVY: Yes. Yeah, that building was Mike Ades' ; s grandfather' ; s building. And father. But grandfather. FERNHEIMER: Huh. LEVY: And he had--he did wholesale everything. All kinds of stuff from clothing to things, you know, tissue, everything. FERNHEIMER: And was it discount or was it-- LEVY: --no, it was wholesale. FERNHEIMER: It was wholesale. LEVY: Yeah, sold it to other stores. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Were there any discount stores downtown? LEVY: No, not really. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: I don' ; t think so. They may have said they were but they weren' ; t. FERNHEIMER: No. Okay. LEVY: (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you so much, Erle. I really appreciate it. LEVY: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Uh. LEVY: Okay, hit off? FERNHEIMER: I think, uh, we' ; ll get it off in a second. M: You' ; re good to go whenever. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay, thank you. Thank you so much. LEVY: Thank you. FERNHEIMER: This was great. LEVY: I hope. FERNHEIMER: It was. LEVY: I added something. FERNHEIMER: You did. Where you-- END OF AUDIO FILE[MC14] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections and Digital Programs, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh319_jk006_levy_ohm.xml 2015oh319_jk006_levy_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Erle Levy, August 19, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Erle Levy discusses family lineage in Lexington, Kentucky and Europe. He discusses his childhood school life in Lexington, and his childhood life in relation to Judaism and family traditions. He talks about the Jewish businesses that existed in Lexington in the mid-twentieth century.
Levy discusses his time at the University of Kentucky and his experiences in the Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) fraternity. He talks about meeting his (future) wife during college. He discusses his life after UK, his marriage, and his life as a businessman. Levy discusses his perspective on how the Jewish community has changed in Lexington, and of how his own Jewishness has changed. He talks about the social divide between Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Temple Adath Israel in Lexington.
Identifier
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2015oh319_jk006
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jews--Identity.
Worship (Judaism)
Jewish children
Religion
Jewish businesspeople
College students--Social conditions
College students--Religious life
Greek letter societies.
Jewish families.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
Format
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video
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https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/f0d2a7931301748b440532f991083aa7.jpeg
757cd05135d6c18ee5aaf409511b80ce
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marty Solomon
Interview Keyword
Computer science.
Computers.
Universities and colleges--Faculty.
Jewish businesspeople
Anti-Semitism
Small business--Ownership
Antisemitism
Discrimination.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh317_jk005 Interview with Marty Solomon, August 17, 2015 2015oh317_jk005 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Religion Worship (Judaism) African Americans--Social conditions. United States--Race relations. University of Kentucky United States. Army Air Forces United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps Greek letter societies. College students--Social conditions Bourbon whiskey Whiskey industry Computer science. Computers. Universities and colleges--Faculty. Jewish businesspeople Anti-Semitism Small business--Ownership Antisemitism Discrimination. Marty Solomon Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|31(5)|57(12)|72(7)|82(15)|112(8)|134(15)|155(5)|171(11)|185(17)|212(9)|232(10)|276(8)|299(6)|319(11)|348(6)|374(11)|386(15)|424(10)|442(4)|456(3)|464(5)|485(4)|499(5)|513(3)|527(8)|543(11)|558(8)|574(15)|594(12)|608(12)|627(11)|646(9)|666(4)|679(15)|694(2)|707(12)|725(1)|739(9)|758(4)|775(3)|790(15)|800(4)|823(2)|875(3)|894(7)|913(11)|931(15)|949(5)|976(6)|989(12)|1000(11)|1013(2)|1023(2)|1035(7)|1052(5)|1079(10)|1091(11)|1105(12)|1119(5)|1143(11)|1157(10)|1174(9)|1200(2)|1214(8)|1231(16)|1263(4)|1273(15)|1284(8)|1295(9)|1311(12)|1324(9)|1333(13)|1346(16)|1358(7)|1375(10)|1386(1)|1398(7)|1410(9)|1428(4)|1438(7)|1450(3)|1461(11)|1472(1)|1489(2)|1498(6)|1514(3)|1525(2)|1535(11)|1552(9)|1562(1)|1582(6)|1592(13)|1603(10)|1622(12)|1640(10)|1660(3)|1676(2)|1687(5)|1701(5)|1730(12)|1755(12)|1792(13)|1811(13)|1835(3)|1850(14)|1874(4)|1891(9)|1927(5)|1938(3)|1956(5)|1966(3)|1976(18)|2000(4)|2014(2)|2034(8)|2046(14)|2063(12)|2086(2) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253336443" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family background, Prohibition, and the bourbon industry Um, so, to get us started today, I'm going to say, uh, today is August 17th-- Marty Solomon speaks about his early life growing up on the south side of Chicago, and how he and his family came to live in the state of Kentucky. His parents worked in the bourbon industry and he grew up working in a distillery where they produced Old Blair Bourbon. He talks about how rural women would work on the bottling line in the distillery. Beatrice Newfield Solomon ; Bottling plants ; Bourbon industry ; Chicago (Ill.) ; David Karp ; Julie (Solomon) Karp ; Kentucky ; King Lear ; Loretto (Ky.) ; Martin Berthold Solomon ; Martin Solomon Sr. ; Melvin Kessler ; Old Blair ; Robert Kessler ; Seagrams ; The Great Depression ; World War 2 ; World War II ; WW2 ; WWII Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Prohibition. ; Whiskey industry ; Women in the whiskey industry 37.6353403, -85.4007952 17 Loretto, Kentucky 555 High school Jewish fraternities in Louisville, Kentucky But, uh, the greatest th--one of the great things about my childhood was, uh, there were two Jewish fraternities in Louisville. Solomon describes his later youth in Louisville and his membership with Pi Tau Pi, a chapter of AZA in the 1940s. The Jewish high school fraternities would compete in different events. Solomon thinks that his membership in this fraternity was one of the instrumental aspects of his Jewish identity. Aleph Zadik Aleph (AZA) ; Bernie Solomon ; Bowman Hall (University of Kentucky) ; Carl Rankin ; Connie Goldberg ; Earl Levy ; Gil Levich ; Henry Abraham ; Highland Junior High School ; Jack Steinberg ; Jimmy Winniker ; Louisville Male High School ; Michael Solomon ; Pi Tau Pi ; Tom Reynolds ; University of Kentucky ; Youth Men's Hebrew Association (YMHA) ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Greek letter societies. ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.2254832, -85.65046129999996 17 Location of Jewish Community Center in Louisville, Kentucky 1317 Jewish-owned department stores in Lexington in the 1950s You know, Main Street in Lexington, I don't know if you have heard about this but it--there were fifteen Jewish stores on Main Street. Solomon briefly talks about some of the Jewish-owned stores in downtown Lexington from the early 1950s, and the " ; townies" ; that were members of Zeta Beta Tau with him that had families that owned or worked in these stores. Ben Snyder Store ; Blumfield's ; Delta Delta Delta ; Earl Steinberg ; Gil Levich ; Homecoming parade ; Hyman's ; Jack Steinberg ; Madge Barnett ; Main Street (Lexington Ky.) ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Pledge master ; Pledges ; Ronny Tiller ; Tots and Teens ; Winniker's Shoe Store ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Entrepreneurship ; Greek letter societies. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership -85.65046129999996, -84.50845900000001 17 Main Street in Lexington, Kentucky 1384 Life as a member of Zeta Beta Tau at the University of Kentucky Anyway, Jimmy was our pledge master, and so he--we--we--he would meet with us and tell us what to do, you know? Solomon describes his life as an undergraduate brother of the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity, including descriptions of the house, events he participated in, fraternity customs, and the dynamics of chapter meetings. This includes an anecdote about pledging. Alan Blumfield ; Babe Ruth ; Champale ; Delta Delta Delta sorority ; Earl Steinberg ; Eugene DuBow ; Fraternities ; Gil Levich ; Harriet Rose ; Hillel ; Inter-Fraternity Council (IFC) ; Jack Miller ; Jack Steinberg ; Jewish fraternity ; Jewish sorority ; Jimmy Winniker ; Joe Kennedy ; Kennedy Book Store ; Lou Gehrig ; Madge Barnett ; Murderer's Row ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Ronny Tiller ; Sorority ; State Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Stuart Yussman ; Teddy Bregg ; The Kentuckian ; The Paddock (bar) ; University of Tennessee ; Walgreen's College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; College students--Social networks ; Greek letter societies. ; University of Kentucky 38.030429, -84.51088199999998 17 Former location of the ZBT House at 113 State Street, Lexington, Kentucky. This house is no longer standing but many of the surrounding houses are. http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt7tmp4vjc28_282/viewer The yearbook page for Zeta Beta Tau in the year 1955 when Marty Solomon was president. It includes events the fraternity participated in that year in addition to the name of every chapter officer, member and pledge. 2989 ROTC and Solomon's early years in Air Force training So when I graduated, uh, w--I was in the, uh, ROTC. Solomon talks about his training to be a pilot in the Air Force which led to his first experience working with an African-American, as well as his work in aircraft maintenance. He talks about racism in Illinois in the 1950s and how the military helped its Black officers. He then discusses some of the campus climate at the University of Kentucky regarding racism and antisemitism. Air craft maintenance ; Air Force ; Bill Dixon ; Captain Stern ; Chanute Air Force Base ; Harlingen (Tex.) ; Kappa Alpha Order ; Pilot Training ; Rantoul (Ill.) ; Reserve Officers' Training Corps (ROTC) ; Rosh Hashanah ; Yom Kippur African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Integration ; United States--Race relations. ; United States. Army Air Forces ; United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps ; University of Kentucky 40.2889062, -88.14384869999998 17 Former location of Chanute Air Force Base (now decommissioned) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Chanute_Air_Force_Base_-_1964.jpg Aerial photo of Chanute Air Force Base where Solomon underwent training in airplane maintenance 3975 Life and graduate school after the Air Force When I left I--well when I--I had an interesting experience. Solomon discusses his time soon after he left the Air Force, including time living in Louisville with his parents and making the decision to go back to school to become a CPA and then later get his PhD. Certified Public Accountant (CPA) ; Dale Osburn ; Dr. Koulson ; Federal reserve ; Furniture stores ; Jim Gibson ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Masters of Business Administration (MBA) ; Monroe Accounting Machines ; University of Texas at Arlington Economics ; Employment--Kentucky ; Jewish families. 38.25266469999999, -85.75845570000001 17 Louisville, Kentucky 4282 Career in computer science 1960-1997 And, uh, the, uh--when I was a, uh--started teaching, uh--another--you know sometimes things that look like disasters turn out to be real opportunities. Solomon talks about the time he spent teaching undergraduate statistics and how he became involved with computer science in the early years of the computer. He worked on punch cards that could process linear regressions through the computer. Solomon then describes his numerous professional roles working in computer science at Ohio State University, the University of South Carolina, and the University of Utah. Chief Information Officer ; Computing ; Director of Computing ; McVey Hall ; Ohio State University ; University of Kentucky ; University of South Carolina ; University of Utah Computer science. ; Computers. ; Universities and colleges--Faculty. 40.0141905, -83.0309143 17 The Ohio State University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_programming_in_the_punched_card_era#/media/File:FortranCardPROJ039.agr.jpg A punched card similar to what Solomon would have used with his computer. 5066 Jewish identity Uh, now I did spend some time--in U, in Utah we had one temple. Solomon compares Jewish life in Salt Lake City, Utah with Jewish life in Lexington, Kentucky. He also compares Jewish life in the conservative temple in Lexington with the reform temple in Lexington. He also describes his current Jewish life in Lexington, and his early Jewish life with his parents. He concludes by discussing his personal positions on a variety of Jewish issues such as spirituality, the Israel/Palestinian conflict, and some reflections on his family's Jewish upbringing. Adath Israel ; B'nai B'rith ; B'nai B'rith Youth Organization (BBYO) ; Bar Mitzvah ; Bill Fish ; Confirmation ; Conservative congregation ; Early Levy ; Eli Capilouto ; Elizabeth Solomon ; Gary Yarus ; Hamas ; Haphtarah ; Hebrew ; Hezbollah ; High holy days ; Israel-Palestinian conflict ; Jewish Federation ; Jimmy Droughtman ; Lexington Jewish community ; Morris Weiss ; North American Federation of Temple Youth (NFTY) ; Ohavay Zion ; Orthodox congregation ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Rabbi Klein ; Rabbi Smolkin ; Reform congregation ; Reform Judaism ; Robert Kessler ; Sarah Levy ; Shabbat services ; Synagogue ; Temple ; Unitarian Church ; Utah Jewish Community Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 37.9986288, -84.47181260000002 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue http://www.slcjcc.org/ The website of the Jewish Community Center of Salt Lake City Oral History Marty Solomon speaks about his early life growing up on the south side of Chicago, and how he and his family came to live in the state of Kentucky. His parents worked in the bourbon industry and he grew up working in a distillery where they produced Old Blair Bourbon. Solomon describes his later youth in Louisville and his membership with Pi Tau Pi, a chapter of AZA in the 1940s. Solomon briefly talks about some of the Jewish-owned stores in downtown Lexington from the early 1950s. Solomon describes his life as an undergraduate brother of the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity, including descriptions of the house, events he participated in, fraternity customs, and the dynamics of chapter meetings. This includes an anecdote about pledging. Solomon talks about his training to be a pilot in the Air Force. He talks about racism in Illinois in the 1950s and how the military helped its Black officers. He then discusses some of the campus climate at the University of Kentucky regarding racism and anti-Semitism. Solomon talks about the time he spent teaching undergraduate statistics and how he became involved with computer science in the early years of the computer. Solomon compares Jewish life in Salt Lake City, Utah with Jewish life in Lexington, Kentucky. He also compares Jewish life in the conservative temple in Lexington with the reform temple in Lexington. He also describes his current Jewish life in Lexington, and his early Jewish life with his parents. He concludes by discussing his personal positions on a variety of Jewish issues such as spirituality, the Israel/Palestinian conflict, and some reflections on his family's Jewish upbringing. FERNHEIMER: Um, so, to get us started today, I' ; m going to say, uh, today is August 17th-- SOLOMON: It' ; s August 17th-- FERNHEIMER: --2015. SOLOMON: --2015. FERNHEIMER: Thank you for joining us in the studio today. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I' ; m associate professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies and the director of Jewish studies here. And it' ; s great honor and pleasure to have the opportunity to interview-- SOLOMON: Marty Solomon. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And let me, uh-- SOLOMON: Retired professor from the University of Kentucky. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So, let--I' ; m going to begin with some sort of questions that I probably already know the answers to, but--so that we have the--the--here for the record. Uh, what was your name at birth? SOLOMON: My name--Martin Berthold (??) Solomon, Jr. FERNHEIMER: And where and when were you born? SOLOMON: Chicago, Illinois, eighth of August, 1933. FERNHEIMER: And, um, uh, what--and what were your parents' ; names and occupations? SOLOMON: Dad was a--Martin Solomon, Sr. Dad was an attorney, uh, in Chicago, where I was born. Uh, Mother was a housewife. And, uh, we lived on the South Side of Chicago. And when, uh-- FERNHEIMER: What was your mom' ; s name? SOLOMON: Beatrice. FERNHEIMER: Beatrice Solomon? SOLOMON: Beatrice Newfeld Solomon. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell Newfeld? SOLOMON: Newfeld was her maiden name. FERNHEIMER: N-E-W-F-E-L-D? SOLOMON: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: Um, Dad was a lawyer, and in 1936--well, ' ; 34, ' ; 35 was the Depression, Great Depression, and Dad was a--out of work, actually. There weren' ; t--there wasn' ; t a lot of work for attorneys in those days. Uh, and it--my uncle, who lived next door, was a salesman, and he was out of work. So, my dad and my uncle heard that, uh, well, during the Depression, during the--during the Depression and during Prohibition, liquor was, uh, uh, hard to--hard to get. Most of the distilleries were shut down, and Dad and, uh, my uncle, in 1936, heard that there was money to be made in Kentucky in the--in the, uh, distillery business. FERNHEIMER: What was your uncle' ; s name? SOLOMON: David. David Karp. FERNHEIMER: David Karp. K or C? SOLOMON: K. K-A-R-P. Dave W. Karp. And so, Dave, uh, and Dad came to Kentucky to look around, and they found this distillery was, uh, owned by a fellah named King Lear--(laughs)--believe it or not. And King, uh, was an older fellah, wanted to retire. So, he cut a deal with my dad and uncle to run the distillery for him. And every year they ran it, they would--they would earn, um, a percentage of the ownership. And over a period of years, they owned the distillery. And, uh, during that time, uh, Prohibition was ended. But there still weren' ; t many distilleries, so anybody that could make liquor could make a lot of money. Was--you--you just--you could make it in your bathtub and make money. But they--they did very well for a while. And then, after--uh, and during the war, it was even more, uh--during Second World War, the, uh, government required the distilleries to--to convert, uh, I think fifty percent of their capacity to make grain alcohol for the Army, for medical purposes. So, liquor was even in tighter supply. And, uh, they can--sell all they could make. But after the war--now, Seagram' ; s started advertising Three Feathers and Four Roses and just captured the whole market, and the little guys were shut out. So, they, uh, got out of distillery business. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Where was the distillery that they were-- SOLOMON: It was in Loretto, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Dad would--Dad and, uh--would--Dad was the, uh--ran the distillery, and Dave was the salesman. He' ; d go out on the road and sell, uh, to, uh, liquor stores. FERNHEIMER: And was Dave your father' ; s brother or your mother' ; s-- SOLOMON: Dave was my--uh, my--my--Dad' ; s sister, uh, was Dave' ; s wife. So, Dave was my-- FERNHEIMER: Brother-in-law? SOLOMON: My--my--what? My uncle. FERNHEIMER: Your uncle. SOLOMON: Yeah, he was my uncle. FERNHEIMER: Related by marriage, though. SOLOMON: By marriage, yeah. Julie--Julie Solomon was my dad' ; s sister. And Julie Solomon got married to Dave Karp, so she became Julie Karp. And, uh, that' ; s the way that was. FERNHEIMER: How long were--so, about what years were they in the distilling business? Uh, from about ' ; 30--he' ; s down to (??)-- SOLOMON: Thirty-six. FERNHEIMER: --' ; 36 to-- SOLOMON: About ' ; 47, something like that. FERNHEIMER: And do you remember the names of the--the spirits they made or the-- SOLOMON: They made--yeah, their brand was called Old Blair. FERNHEIMER: Old Blair. SOLOMON: B-L-A-I-R. But they also made wine. I don' ; t remember the name of the wine, but I' ; d go down on summers--in the summertime, and I' ; d work in the bottling plant. And they had this long conveyor where, uh, a machine would fill bottles with either wine or liquor and be put on a conveyor belt. And, uh, the women would be on both sides of this conveyor belt, and they would--they' ; d--someone would put the front label on, someone would put the back label on. Then they' ; d put acelecyle (??) on top and cap it. And then, at the end, they' ; d put them in cases, marked--and close up the case. It was--lot of fun. But it was very hot. No air conditioning. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I imagine. (laughter) Were there--do you remember, were there any Jewish women on the bottling line? SOLOMON: No, no, these were--these were country women, of--out in the sticks, you know? They had nothing else. There' ; s no industry in that area except at this distillery. FERNHEIMER: And do you remember any of the women who were there? Any -----------(??) SOLOMON: No, they were older women. I was a kid. FERNHEIMER: So, how old were you when you were working and about how old were they? SOLOMON: Oh, I was probably, uh--well, let' ; s see, I was, uh--1940, I was seven years old. -----------(??) So, I was eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve years old, in that area. These were forty, fifty year old women. Country women who--I never knew any of them, actually. I just worked beside them. But only for, like, a month or a month and a half at a time during the summer. But, uh, I was lucky enough to--to live next door to two Jewish guys, twins, who became my best friends in, uh, growing up. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: -----------(??) SOLOMON: --two different guys. One was very, very--uh, smart kid who was, uh, interested in learning and--and, uh, literature and things like that. And the other one was interested in sports. But anyway, they became my best friends. And because of them, in-- FERNHEIMER: And what were their names? SOLOMON: In my teenage--Robert and Melvin Kessler. Robert went on to become a, uh, an orthopedic surgeon. And Melvin actually died of, uh, ALS [amyotrophic lateral sclerosis] when he was very young. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: Melvin never wanted to go to college. He just wanted to, uh, he wanted to play bridge. (laughs) Bridge was his thing. As a matter of fact, I played bridge with him only once. And, uh, I was not as--he was very, very good. And I was a--no, (??) I was a novice, and we--we were playing bridge in this big room, um, duplicate bridge. Very, very high-test, high--high--a very tense--when you play duplicate bridge, it' ; s very tense. People are--they' ; re very competitive. Everybody wants to have the high card, high board. And I' ; ll never forget--I made a bad bid once. And, uh, when the cards came down, he looked at my hand and he stood up and he said, " ; God damn you!" ; (laughs) And I slumped down in my chair and I said to myself I' ; ll never do this again. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How old were you when you were playing bridge with Melvin? SOLOMON: About (??) fifteen, maybe, yeah. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And where was that? Is that here? SOLOMON: In Louisville. Louisville, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: In Louisville. SOLOMON: But, uh, the greatest thing--one of the great things about my childhood was, uh, there were two Jewish fraternities in Louisville. Teen--high school fraternities. One was called AZA [Aleph Zadik Aleph] and one was--was called, um--that was the other fraternity. And mine was called Pi Tau Pi. FERNHEIMER: Pi Tau Pi. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about Pi Tau Pi. SOLOMON: Pi Tau--we probably had about thirty, forty kids who were in the fraternity, and we' ; d--we' ; d, uh--we had a basketball team. And, uh, but AZA had a basketball team, so we' ; d play basketball against each other at the--at the--in those days, Louisville had a, uh, YMHA. Young Men' ; s Hebrew Association, with a building and a gym, a basketball court, the whole thing. And, uh, we had a great rivalry, there and they (??)--we had dances, we had get-togethers. Uh, it was a--it was wonderful, uh, it was--it was something that, uh, kids in Lexington just don' ; t have, you know? They--teenagers--Jewish teenagers in Lexington, uh, they get lost in the shuffle. They-- FERNHEIMER: You mean today or then? SOLOMON: Today, today, yeah. That' ; s one of my--I' ; d like to see us do something better with teenage kids, ' ; cause they--you know, they--today, they get bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed, and then you never see ' ; em again. And, uh, that wasn' ; t the case in--in Louisville when I was a kid. We had these--the Jewish fraternities, and they kept us together. And, uh, it--it, uh, kinda reinforced our Judaism. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Were you born in Louisville? SOLOMON: In Chicago. FERNHEIMER: You were born in Chicago. How old were you when you moved to Louisville? SOLOMON: Uh, six. FERNHEIMER: Six. And-- SOLOMON: Oh, wait a minute, ' ; 36--three. FERNHEIMER: Three. So, you moved when you were-- SOLOMON: We moved in ' ; 3--no, no, I' ; m sorry, six. We moved in ' ; 39. I' ; m sorry. I got it backward. I was six. (laughs) I was right the first time. FERNHEIMER: So, your dad had moved down here a little bit earlier to get started? Or he just-- SOLOMON: --mm-- FERNHEIMER: --came down here to start the business in ' ; 36? SOLOMON: Well, he made a couple of trips, but then we moved--actually moved stock, lock, and barrel in, uh, in--then (??) ' ; 39. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: And, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And you moved to Louisville? SOLOMON: To Louisville, uh-huh. Next door to the Kesslers, just by accident. Uh, but that was a great thing for me, to meet the Kesslers. They were good, wonderful friends. And-- FERNHEIMER: Do you have brothers and sisters? SOLOMON: Hmm? FERNHEIMER: Sorry for interrupting you. Do you have siblings? Brothers and sisters? SOLOMON: I have two brothers. I had two brothers. Uh, one brother, Michael, lives in Denver. He' ; s a-- FERNHEIMER: -----------(??) SOLOMON: --uh, retired, uh, a psychiatric social worker. He, uh, did mostly marriage counseling of rich people. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And was he older than you or younger than you? SOLOMON: He' ; s--he' ; s the middle--middle child. I' ; m the oldest. Michael is the middle son. FERNHEIMER: How many years between you? SOLOMON: And he' ; s, uh, two and a half--uh, three years younger than I am. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: And then, Bernie was the youngest. Bernie was two years younger than Michael. Bernie became a--the, uh, director of the Jewish community center in, uh, Salt Lake City. FERNHEIMER: Huh. SOLOMON: Which had a relatively small Jew--400 families. But he, uh--they had a wonderful community center there. A single temple, as a matter of fact, with--they had a--a conservative, uh--well, anyway, that was after a while. But when I was a teenager, uh, most of the kids in our fraternity would go to the University of Kentucky when they went to college. And so--and they became, uh, ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau]--they--they entered (??)--they joined the ZBT fraternity. So, I knew these guys. They were my high school friends. They were maybe a year ahead of me. So, when the time came for me to go to college, it was just naturally natural that I would go to the University of Kentucky, because they were--my friends were there. FERNHEIMER: Can you--do you recall the names of some of the--the young men that were involved in the fraternity with you and-- SOLOMON: Oh, yeah, yeah. Lots of them. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Can you tell--list them for me so-- SOLOMON: Well, Henry Abraham was one of my closest friends in high school, and he--he went to the University of Kentucky. Uh, Irv--uh, Irv--uh, Irv. (laughs) Irv. FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come back to you. SOLOMON: It' ; ll come back to me. Uh, of course, there--and I had already known, uh, Earl Levy. Now, Earl lived in Lexington, but I lived in Louisville, but we knew each other. FERNHEIMER: How did you know each other? From-- SOLOMON: I dated a girl from Lexington when I was in high school in Louisville. FERNHEIMER: How did you meet her? SOLOMON: Uh, I don' ; t know--(laughter)--tell you the truth. Some kind of a Louisville-Lexington dance or something like that, maybe. FERNHEIMER: For the Jewish community or just in general? SOLOMON: Yeah, Jewish--Jewish kind of a--maybe the fraternity put that on, maybe the--uh-- FERNHEIMER: What was her name? SOLOMON: Uh, Connie Goldberg. And, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, you met Earl through Connie? SOLOMON: Probably. That I don' ; t remember, how I met Connie. Uh, not Connie. Not Connie Goldberg. Um, Connie was her sister. FERNHEIMER: (laughter) Connie Goldberg' ; s sister. SOLOMON: Connie Goldberg' ; s sister, yeah. Uh, boy, that really was a--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: I didn' ; t mean to throw you. It' ; ll come back. SOLOMON: Don' ; t tell her that. (laughs) That would be embarrassing. (laughs) Ah, anyway, so, uh, ah, the fraternity would have high school kids come to the campus on weekends. FERNHEIMER: So, ZBT fraternity did? (??) SOLOMON: ZBT fraternity here in the University of Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: And what year was this? This was-- SOLOMON: Uh, 1950. FERNHEIMER: So, you were still in high school, and you were coming-- SOLOMON: I was in high school, and they invited--they invited high school--Jewish high school kids from Louisville to come up and spend the weekend at the fraternity house. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Uh, Friday night, Saturday night, and then--so, uh, I came up on one weekend and got to know a lot of the guys. And that reinforced my interest in the University of Kentucky as well as ZBT fraternity. But when I came to college, they--they had a rule that, um, you had to spend the first, uh, semester in the dorms. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: You couldn' ; t go into a fraternity directly. So, I moved into (??) Bowman Hall and, uh, had two--two great roommates. Uh, Tom Reynolds went on to become a physician. And, uh, the other--other roommate, he became an--a physician, also. Carl Rankin. Carl became a physician, the--both of them became physicians. Anyway, uh, but I wanted to join the fraternity. The University of Kentucky had a rule, though, that you couldn' ; t join a fraternity unless you had a--I think a C+ average. Uh, so, that was really--uh, uh, I wasn' ; t really a--a good student in high school. I mean, I was--I' ; d do enough to get by. And, uh, sometimes not quite enough to get by. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Where did you go to high school? In Louisville? SOLOMON: In Louisville Male High School. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? SOLOMON: M-A-L-E. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: And, uh, it' ; s interesting, in--in Louisville, uh, until--well, now, I was, uh, a teenager. All the schools were, uh, segregated as far as gender. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. SOLOMON: They had a girls' ; high school and boys' ; high schools. And then they had a black high school downtown. FERNHEIMER: And was there, like, a women' ; s--or the female high school that was sort of paired with the male high school or-- SOLOMON: No, they were just all-- FERNHEIMER: For social functions and things? SOLOMON: --totally independent. FERNHEIMER: Mm. SOLOMON: But, uh--now, why was I telling you that? Anyway-- FERNHEIMER: They were segregated by gender and by race. SOLOMON: Right, right. There were all--there were no--all the schools were--were segregated. No blacks were ever in a--my high school, or even my junior high school, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And where did you go to junior high school? I' ; m sorry, I was supposed to have asked these already. SOLOMON: Junior high school' ; s called Highland Junior High School. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SOLOMON: Uh, and it was really a disadvantage because, you know, none of us ever met a black person in our whole school careers. Uh, and, uh, it--it--I' ; ll tell you a little bit later why--why that was important. But anyway, uh, in high school, we' ; d--as I say, we' ; d come up to the fraternity house--so, I had to make a--a C+--uh, I know where I was going--C+ average to get in. I was never--really good student, and I was particularly not interested in math. But, uh, I had this one course, and--when I was a freshman, a five hour algebra course. And I decided if I could make an A in that course, I could make almost nothing in the other ones and still be able to join the fraternity. (laughter) So, I--(laughs)--so, I went to my professor, this little German fellah. Uh, wonderful, wonderful man. Can' ; t remember his name, but he was wonderful. And, uh, I went to him and--and--early in the course, and I said--I said, " ; You know, I' ; m--uh, want to get into a fraternity, and I have to make some pretty good grades. What do I have to do to get an A in this course?" ; And he said, " ; Vell, um, vell, you should--in the back of the textbook, there are about five hundred problems." ; He said, " ; Work every one of them." ; And so, I did. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: All five hundred? SOLOMON: I went home every night, I' ; d work some more of those problems. And that was one of the greatest things that happened to me, because I really got excited about mathematics. (laughs) I was never excited about mathematics. But it would turn out to be fun. It was like a--a puzzle! Just like working puzzles. And--and when you got to the end of the puzzle, it was great that you solved it. And, uh, so it was a lot of fun. I made an A in the course, I got into the fraternity. (laughs) And, uh, course, that set me onto my, uh, interest in math, which is a great blessing for me. And, uh, so, then I got--we, uh, uh, had a pledge class in--in the ZBT fraternity. Earl Levy, uh, let' ; s see, uh, Jack Steinberg was in our class. Uh, Gil Levich (??) from Louisville. Jack was from Louisville, Jack Steinberg. Earl Levy, course, from Lexington. Um, gosh, and a guy named Jimmy Winniker (??) was our pledge master. Jimmy was a--a football player who went into the Army and played football for the Arm--well, they, you know, the Army had this group of athletes that would actually play sports, basketball and football, just to entertain the troops. And Jimmy was a football--big football player. Big guy. FERNHEIMER: Jewish guy? SOLOMON: Huh? Jewish guy. And Jimmy, uh, got out of the Air--Army and, uh, went--actually went to school at Washington University for a couple of years, played football, and got hurt, I think. Then he came to the University of Kentucky, where he--his father and mother owned a, uh, shoe store. FERNHEIMER: Oh, which-- SOLOMON: Called Winniker' ; s Shoe Store, which was very, very successful. Everybody bought their shoes from the Winnikers. FERNHEIMER: Where was the shoe store located? SOLOMON: On--on Main Street. You know, Main Street in Lexington--I don' ; t know if you have heard about this, but it--there were fifteen Jewish stores on Main Street. There were clothing stores, shoe stores, department stores. Uh, -----------(??) as I say, there might have been fifteen of ' ; em. The--uh, and most of the big--the--a lot of the Jewish families were into retailing. Uh, the Meyers, the--the Wildes, the--the, uh, Haymens, (??) the, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Haymen or Hyman? (??) SOLOMON: Hymans. FERNHEIMER: Hyman. SOLOMON: Hymans. The, uh, Blumfields. (??) Uh, there was a Ben Snyder store down there with a--Jewish owned. Um, there was a--a Tots and Teens. That was--the Hymans (??) owned, the Tots and Teens. So, anyway, there were all these stores, but the Winnikers had this immense store of--shoe store, and--a women' ; s shoe store. And, uh, made--made a lot of money in that business. Anyway, Jimmy was our pledge master, and so he--we--we--he would meet with us and tell us what to do, you know? He' ; d give us assignments. And one day, he gave us an assignment to, um, to get the pledge--the sorority pin of Madge Barnett. Now, Madge Barnett was the Kentuckian Queen that year. Most--well, a most gorgeous, gorgeous young lady. And so, we had to go to the--her--she was a Tri-Delta. A Tri-Delt. So, we trudged over to the Tri-Delt house one night. And we' ; re all standing around the front door, and who' ; s--it--you know, there were--as (??)--I think six of us, seven of us. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember who was there? SOLOMON: Well, Earl and Jack Steinberg, Gil Levich--I' ; m trying to remember the other three, four in our pledge class and I--I don' ; t know why I' ; m blocking on them, because I know ' ; em so well. Anyway, the question was who' ; s going to--who' ; s going to actually try to get the pin? (laughter) FERNHEIMER: Did you have a strategy mapped out? SOLOMON: No. But they decided--I guess they voted me to do the deed, do the dirty deed. So, I knocked on the door, and who came to the door? Was Madge. And I almost melted, you know? It was sort of, like--(babbles) (laughs)--what am I gonna say, what am I gonna do? So I just told her that we were--uh, we were--we were pledges of fraternity, and we were tasked to get her sorority pin. She stood there, she took it off and handed it to me. She said, " ; Just bring it back." ; And I thought that was so nice! (laughs) So, we did that. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So, there wasn' ; t any issue between--or was there any issue between--did they know--did she know that the fraternity you were part of was the Jewish fraternity? Or was there, uh-- SOLOMON: I don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m not asking a very good question, here. Can you tell me a little bit about the relations between ZBT as a Jewish fraternity and--and these other houses in-- SOLOMON: Well, all the other fraternities--all the other fraternities, uh--I shouldn' ; t say all of them. Most of them, apparently, required a person to be, uh, Christian. And they had to take a Christian oath to become a member. So, even a couple of the guys--oh, uh, another one of our--our, uh, pledges was, uh, Ronny Tiller. Now, Ronny was a guy who played football for one year and then he got hurt. But Ronny was--he--when he came to campus, he started to pledge another fraternity. And, uh, it got to the point where they asked him to pledge to either Jesus or Christianity or something. And, of course, he wouldn' ; t do that. And he found out that there was a Jewish fraternity. When we came to campus in those days, they' ; d give us a--a religious preference card, and you could fill out your--your religion. And so, the, um, student--student services would give each fraternity, uh, uh, information about incoming freshmen, if they wanted to rush them. And, of course, we got all these cards for Jewish kids, and we' ; d contact them and tell them that there was a Jewish fraternity. Most of them--I--I--I don' ; t know about most. A lot of them would then come over and want to become members. But there wasn' ; t any--uh, I don' ; t think there was any animosity between, uh, the Jewish fraternity and other fraternities. I think they just--we just didn' ; t have much to do with each other. FERNHEIMER: So, when you did, like--when you planned dances or other events, did you invite them or did they invite you or-- SOLOMON: No. No, the only thing that we--every year, there' ; d be a, uh, parade, and each fraternity would have a float in the parade. But we' ; d have our float, they' ; d have their float. Sororities would have their floats. There was a Jewish sorority, as well, Phi Sigma Sigma. Uh, they had about six--six or seven girls. FERNHEIMER: Total or just in-- SOLOMON: Total. FERNHEIMER: Oh. SOLOMON: Not--not many. (laughs) We had about--at one point, we probably had about thirty people. We had a--a fraternity house on State Street, 113 State Street. It was an old house that had been kinda converted. There was a--a hall--well, it was--originally, it had one bathroom upstairs and one bedroom and bathroom downstairs. And, uh, somebody in the--earlier on had put some, uh, latrines in a hallway. So, we had a--some toilets and sinks in a hallway. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How many people lived in the fraternity house? SOLOMON: About twenty. Now, yeah, we' ; d have--like, in my--in my room--I had different rooms during the years. But in my room, we had four people. Had two double length--two double deck beds, and most of the rooms had two double deck beds. So, there' ; d be, uh, four, eight, sixteen. And then, in the roof, there was a--oh, attic room that had five people. Twenty-one--about--maybe twenty-five people lived in the--there was a president' ; s room. So, about twenty-five people. And then, in the basement, there was this huge shower that had about ten showerheads. So, you shower down there. FERNHEIMER: And did you live in the fraternity house the whole time you were in college except that first semester? SOLOMON: Yeah, the whole time. Yeah, it was wonderful. The--it was a-- FERNHEIMER: Tell-- SOLOMON: --real bonding of people. And, uh, uh, we' ; d go--we' ; d have dinner there, uh, every night except, uh, Sunday. And most of us would go down to Walgreen' ; s--there was a drugstore, Walgreen' ; s, on Main Street. And every Sunday, they' ; d have all the fish you could eat for, like, a dollar and fifty or something like that. And so, that was the Sunday dinner. But it--during the week, we' ; d have dinner every night, you know? Dining room. And, uh, not only the people that lived there but the people--the townies, people lived in town would also come. Sandy Beterman (??) was a townie. Uh, and Earl, of course. Uh, Jimmy Winniker was a townie. Uh, Alan Blumfield was a townie. Uh, Jack Miller was a townie. Uh, those are the ones I can remember. FERNHEIMER: Who were the gentlemen you lived with over the years in the house, do you -----------(??) SOLOMON: Different people each year. We' ; d move around. One year, I lived in the attic with five--four other guys. One year, I lived in a room with three other guys. And one room I--actually, I think one year I might' ; ve been in--in a room with only two of us. Teddy Bregg (??)--oh, that' ; s another one. Teddy was a--in our pledge class. And Stuart Yussman. Now, Stuart was the-- FERNHEIMER: He was from Louisville, right? SOLOMON: Louisville. He was the Clark Gable of the whole group. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What do you mean by that? SOLOMON: A women' ; s man. (laughter) All the women just loved Stuart. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: Did he date mostly Jewish women? Non-Jewish women? All women? Any and all? SOLOMON: Most of the guys didn' ; t date--there weren' ; t that many Jewish women to date. Uh, and, you know, the--half of ' ; em nobody wanted to date. (laughs) For whatever reason. So, most people dated non-Jewish girls. Uh, but we' ; d have a party every Saturday night. That was another great thing about the fraternity, for me. I was a very shy person. Uh, and, um, they had a rule in our fraternity house that you could either bring a date to the party--every Saturday night, we' ; d have a party in the basement. And you could either bring a date to the party or you' ; d have to wait on other people. (laughter) So, it was a great incentive to get a date. But I' ; ll never forget sitting on the phone--you know, I' ; d pick up the phone to call somebody, and I' ; d get--they' ; d answer the phone, I' ; d hang up. (laughter) I was so shy! But that--in--uh, incentive drove me to get a date--(laughs)--almost every Saturday night with somebody. It just had to be somebody, ' ; cause I didn' ; t want to wait on other people. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um, what do you mean by waiting on other people? What did you--what did they serve at-- SOLOMON: --in-- FERNHEIMER: --at these parties? What--was it-- SOLOMON: Oh, you' ; d--you' ; d, uh, serve, uh--you' ; d pick up, uh, trash. You' ; d, uh--I don' ; t remember what we did. Just wait on ' ; em. But you had to bring ' ; em, uh, ice or bring ' ; em glasses or something like that, I suppose. FERNHEIMER: Was there punch? Were there cookie--what did you--what was on-- SOLOMON: Potato chips, maybe. It was in the basement. We had a big room, in the party room in the basement of the fraternity house. And, uh, that' ; s where we' ; d have our parties. FERNHEIMER: What--what were they--was there music? Describe the party for me. SOLOMON: People just bring the liquor and, uh, beer. And we' ; d have music--they have a--a--I guess some kind of a--I guess -----------(??) I don' ; t know if--the radio or phonograph. We' ; d have music and, uh, dancing. People would dance. FERNHEIMER: What were some of the dances? SOLOMON: Uh, slow dances. They were--didn' ; t--I don' ; t think we had any fast dances. (laughter) Mostly hugging. (laughter) You know, the--uh, a substitute for hugging, or excuse for hugging. Uh, but anyway, that--that pushed me to--to be a little bit more outgoing than I had been, because I' ; d--now I could pick up a phone and call--call a girl and get a date. Uh, but then--then a really--one important thing happened to me in the fraternity. When I became a--a junior--every year, we' ; d elect a new president in the fraternity. And, uh, when I was a junior, somebody said, " ; Well, um, uh, what about Marty for president?" ; And somebody came to me and said, " ; How ' ; bout running for president?" ; And I said, " ; Oh, God, I couldn' ; t do that. I' ; m--I' ; m not a leader. I' ; m just--oh, I--I wouldn' ; t know what to do in the" ; --and they convinced me to run for president, and I did. And it changed my life. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about that. SOLOMON: Because I realized I could do something. (laughs) You know? I wasn' ; t this little shy guy that--that couldn' ; t do anything. I could be president of a fraternity. And it was pretty--pretty awesome! I would go to inter--interf-fraternity council meetings. I' ; d be the president. I had a little gavel that ran (??)--that--I could put on my fraternity pin. People on--in other fraternities would contact me periodically for information or something and talk to me as the president. I had a private room in the fraternity house. I would hold meetings. FERNHEIMER: What did you all discuss at your fraternity meetings? SOLOMON: Uh, everything under the sun. You know, the--the meal menu, what we -----------(??) was--are we getting too much of this or too much of that? We had a--a--we hired--we employed a, uh, a house mother. She lived in the house. The--all the fraternities had to have a house mother to try to keep them from being, you know, too audacious, uh--(laughter)--uh, and she kinda helped--kept the--the level of, uh, audacity down. But, um-- FERNHEIMER: Did she prepare meals? Or did she just-- SOLOMON: She managed the kitchen. And so, she would, uh, order things, uh, actually over the phone. And there was a company that would come and deliver food. And she would have--she' ; d manage a cook. We had a--there was a cook, part-time cook. Uh, but we would, uh--everything--you know, there' ; d be some complaint. One guy would have a complaint against another guy. Uh, we' ; d have all kinds of, uh, altercations. Sometimes--we had one guy that had a serious problem with drinking and, uh, drugs, I guess. And, uh, when we went home for, uh, Christmas vacation, everybody would go home except him. He just--he didn' ; t have any place to go. His parents were gone or something. So, he stayed in the house, and when we all came back from Christmas break, all our books were gone. Well, turns out he' ; d--he had taken the books and sold them to Kennedy Bookstore to get some money. And, uh, this was a big deal that we talked about, you know? And-- FERNHEIMER: What--what was--what--what did you all decide to do about this? SOLOMON: You know, we didn' ; t do anything. We went to Kennedy' ; s, Kennedy' ; s gave us the books back. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SOLOMON: Uh, Mr. Kennedy was a--just a wonderful man. He' ; d--uh, it was interesting about Kennedy. Oh, he' ; s still alive and I see him periodically. But when--when I was in, uh, undergraduate, uh, these--the university had a bookstore right on campus. And Kennedy had this bookstore across from--where it is now. And, uh, the university bookstore had an advantage over Kennedy' ; s, because it didn' ; t have to pay sales taxes. It was part of the university. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: But Kennedy had to pay sales tax, so he had a--economic disadvantage. And yet, the university bookstore was going broke and Kennedy was making a fortune. So, one day I went over to see Joe and I said--we got to know each other a little bit. I said, " ; Joe, how is it that you, uh, you' ; re making money and the bookstore' ; s going broke?" ; He said, " ; Well," ; he said, " ; it' ; s very simple." ; He said, " ; To the people that work at the university bookstore, the owner is a faceless thing, an organization. A university. A government." ; He said, " ; The people that work for me work for a human being. I' ; m Joe Kennedy." ; And he said, " ; They' ; re like my kids." ; He said, " ; If they have problems, they come to me and talk about ' ; em. We talk about ' ; em. Sometimes I' ; ll loan them money, and sometimes I' ; ll get ' ; em out of jail." ; So, he said, " ; It' ; s a different world." ; And, uh, so he was such a really nice guy, he gave us the books back. I don' ; t think he even asked for the money, ' ; cause we didn' ; t have it. He' ; d already spent the money. But, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was he allowed to stay in the house after this? SOLOMON: We--we--we had a big talk with him and he--he said that he was under the influence of drugs and the--he was really a bad guy. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Who was this? Or-- SOLOMON: His name was--his name was Ned Fogler. He was a con man. Real con man. FERNHEIMER: Where--was he from Lexington or-- SOLOMON: No, he was--I think he was from New York. But, uh, he put on a good show and he--he--it--he exhibited a lot of remorse. And so, I think everybody said okay, we' ; ll just let it go. So, he didn' ; t do anything after that that was outrageous. But anyway, so we' ; d have things to talk about in fraternity meetings. Uh, and we' ; d--or we would have to decide, you know, who' ; s going to--there' ; d be a person--there was always a kind of the kitchen manager, would help the house mother plan meals, you know? What--what do the boys like, you know? Do they like fried chicken, do they like--would-- FERNHEIMER: Your (??)--the kitchen manager was one of the fraternity brothers themselves? The kitchen manager, was it one of the fraternity brothers? Or was some-- SOLOMON: Yeah, one of the fraternity brothers. So, you' ; d have--and then we had committees--so, committees would report on things like the next parade, who' ; s going to--what kind of a--a float are we going to have? How are we going to fund it? Uh, or is there--is there going to be a group going to Ohio State for the weekend? And we' ; ll put a group together to go up and visit the ZBT chapter at Ohio State or something. So, we always had things to talk about. Now, you remember interview Gene Dubau, (??) but Gene was president before I was. FERNHEIMER: Wait, he--what year were you president? SOLOMON: Fifty-four, fifty-- FERNHEIMER: And he was the year right before you, in ' ; 53, right? SOLOMON: No, I' ; m sorry. He was two--two presidents before me. Uh, Stuart Yussman was president in ' ; 54. I was president in ' ; 55. But anyway, we had four of us--were really thick. Earl Levy, myself, Stuart Yussman, and Teddy Bregg. The four of us were like four horsemen. And we--at the end of a fraternity meeting, we' ; d always have good and welfare. And good and welfare meant each person could speak their piece. You' ; d go ' ; round the room, anything you had to say--if you wanted to say anything--you didn' ; t have to say anything, but you could complain about something, you could congratulate somebody about something, or you could just let off steam or whatever you wanted to do. And usually, we' ; d go around pretty fast, you know? It' ; s, " ; Uh, Joe, what' ; s your--" ; " ; I pass." ; " ; I pass." ; " ; I pass." ; Well, they' ; d get--the four of us would sit together, and not a--we would never pass. We' ; d always have something to say. Well, Gene was president at the time. And Gene was from New York. And it--course, the New York Yankees was the prominent baseball team at the time, when he was a kid. And, uh, there were four Yankee players in the line-up. Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, uh, I can' ; t remember the other two. But anyway, there were four of ' ; em, they call them, uh, the--not the Four Horsemen, but the, uh, Murderer' ; s Row. Murderer' ; s Row, that' ; s what they called these four baseball players, and--but anyway, because none of us would ever pass--we' ; d always have something to say, Gene labeled us Murderer' ; s Row. (laughter) So, the four of us became Murderer' ; s Row. FERNHEIMER: There were--if I recall, there' ; s some images of Murderer' ; s Row in-- SOLOMON: Right, we-- FERNHEIMER: --The Kentuckian-- SOLOMON: --had a-- FERNHEIMER: --with you all dressed up. SOLOMON: We had a bear skin--we' ; d use--always play--the University of Tennessee would be our, uh, rivals in football. And the fraternity, uh, at Tennessee and the fraternity at Kentucky would always challenge each other for a bearskin. Actually, it was a piece of plastic, I think. But it would have--you' ; d have something on it. It would say, you know, " ; 1955 Kentucky--Kentucky twenty-six, Tennessee twenty-two" ; or what--and so, each year, one of us would have to buy a bearskin for the other--or they' ; d buy one for us. And we bought one for the -----------(??) Murderer' ; s Row. Uh, we got one from them, I guess. Anyway, I--somehow it happened. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit more about the regular activities of the fraternity? So, it sounds like you had a regular dance on Saturday nights. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And you had regular meetings to discuss-- SOLOMON: Regular meetings-- FERNHEIMER: --business. SOLOMON: --every week. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- SOLOMON: And (??) I think they were on Wednesday nights. FERNHEIMER: Wednesday nights. SOLOMON: I think it' ; s--yeah. (??) FERNHEIMER: You had elections every year. SOLOMON: Every year. FERNHEIMER: What-- SOLOMON: We had a-- FERNHEIMER: --were there other-- SOLOMON: --dinner every night. FERNHEIMER: Were there other officers besides president that were elected? SOLOMON: Yeah, there was president, vice-president, uh, there was a treasurer and secretary. FERNHEIMER: And did people tend to go through the ranks? Like, someone would start as secretary and then move their way up? Or was it willy-nilly? SOLOMON: I' ; m not sure that there was a vice-president. Not--there might not have been. I think there was a president, a secretary, and a-- FERNHEIMER: Treasurer? SOLOMON: Treasurer. Treasurer. FERNHEIMER: And the pledge master, was that an elected role? SOLOMON: I think that was one that' ; s--(laughs)--they had to find somebody that would volunteer. It wasn' ; t a--it wasn' ; t a fun job. You know, it was a lot of work to work with the pledges and teach them the things that they needed to know about the fraternity. Had to teach ' ; em the Greek lang--the Greek alphabet. (laughs) That' ; s one thing you had to learn. You had to learn the Greek alphabet. FERNHEIMER: The Greek alphabet. And what else did they have to learn about the-- SOLOMON: Uh, the history of the fraternity. Some--some aspects of history. Uh, some aspects of the university, I guess. I' ; m not--it wasn' ; t a very rigorous kind of a curriculum--(laughs)--I' ; ll say that. FERNHEIMER: Was there a quiz? SOLOMON: Huh? No, no. FERNHEIMER: Was--and you' ; d--you-- SOLOMON: There was Hell Night. Hell Night was a time when they put us through all kinds of embarrassing situations. It was a very, uh--uh, hazing. It was a--you know, was just--there wasn' ; t--it wasn' ; t violent in a physical sense. It was violent in a psychological sense, you know? They would strip you down to--and be naked and have to parade around and, uh, things like that. But it was a--it' ; s just a rite of passage, you know? Everybody had to do it. FERNHEIMER: So, aside from doing things like requesting the pin of the Kentucky Queen, like you-- SOLOMON: The what? FERNHEIMER: You reported the story of--of having to request the pin from the Kentucky Queen. I was-- SOLOMON: Well, that was just--I--that was just a--periodically, the pledge master would have the pledges do something. Uh, you know, just on a whim. Whatever he wanted to do. He might say you' ; d have to go out in the woods and find a piece of cedar and bring it back. Or, you know, whatever he decided to do. Just--just to keep the pledges in line and make them realize they were pledges. (laughs) They weren' ; t quite real people yet, you know? It' ; s sort of like the Marines. They break you down then build you back up. (laughter) So, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, so, okay, pledge activities, the dances. Other activities, uh, that you recall that were regularly part of the fraternity life? SOLOMON: No, just mostly hanging out together, drinking beer on Friday. Friday, uh, afternoons, we' ; d typically go to a place called The Paddock and have a beer. The Paddock was a bar on the corner of, uh, Euclid and, um, Rose (??) Street--now where there' ; s that little strip mall. FERNHEIMER: And what kind of beer was popular then? SOLOMON: Uh, I' ; m not sure what other people drank, but I--I was--uh, I really liked a thing called Champale. FERNHEIMER: Champale? And-- SOLOMON: Champale. I don' ; t think they make it anymore. But it was a kind of a combination of champagne and beer. And it really tasted good until, one night, I drank more than I should have. I got back home, in the fraternity house. I don' ; t know how I got there, but--and I' ; d lie--I laid down, and the room started spinning. And it started spinning. And I got sick as a dog. I mean, I was--I don' ; t know if I' ; ve ever been that sick again. But I never wanted to see Champale again. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Best not. SOLOMON: So, I switched to--I guess I switched to some kind of beer and--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: So, regular Friday nights there. Um, in a couple of the other interviews, I heard, uh--and I know Harriet Rose (??) was there a little bit earlier, about ten years, almost, before you at UK. But she talked about, um, I--a debating society, uh, that came out of, uh, the Hillel organization. Do you know anything about that? She thought that some of the fraternity--that the Hillel and the Jewish fraternity, there was a lot of overlap between membership. Is that something that you recall? SOLOMON: You know, I don' ; t know. Gene was, I think, a--involved in Hillel. I never got involved in Hillel for some reason. I don' ; t know why. I--uh-- FERNHEIMER: Were most of the fraternity brothers--the--so, you weren' ; t, but Gene was. SOLOMON: I don' ; t recall many of ' ; em--I don' ; t recall people being in Hillel, really. I--in fact, I found out about Gene' ; s involvement in Hillel only within the last year. FERNHEIMER: Really? SOLOMON: I didn' ; t even know about it while we were--while we were, uh, you know, uh, undergraduates, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Did you know of Hillel? Did you know that it existed? SOLOMON: I don' ; t think I even knew of Hillel. I don' ; t even think I knew it existed, what it was. I--I certainly don' ; t recall ever going to a meeting, such a meeting. I--I would' ; ve, I think, if I' ; d--I' ; d known about it, but-- FERNHEIMER: Were there-- SOLOMON: --I don' ; t think it was well, uh, advertised for some--I don' ; t know, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Were there other student organizations that you were involved with in addition to the fraternity? SOLOMON: No, just, uh, just the fraternity. It was a really thick group. A lot of neat guys, uh, bonded together, went places together. We' ; d--sometimes, we' ; d get in a car and go to--as I say, the place like Ohio State and stay there--weekend. They' ; d put us up. And sometimes people would come to our fraternity and--from other places. Uh, and then, once in a while, had to do some--I' ; d study, and I' ; d (??)--(laughs) FERNHEIMER: And what was your major while you were at UK? SOLOMON: I was in the business school. A business major. Business, uh, uh, in the business school--business and economics, you know, that kind of stuff. When I was an undergraduate. And then, uh, uh, so when I graduated, went in--I was in the ROTC [Reserve Officers' ; Training Corps], that--the university had a--a course called ROTC. Air Force ROTC. And you could join in your junior year. It was--it was actually classes that you took. It was--you got credit, uh, college credit for ROTC. But the nice thing is, they' ; d pay you, I think, fifty dollars a month. Something like that. So, I--I wanted the fifty dollars a month to pay for my beer. (laughs) So, I joined the ROTC, but the nice thing about it was you could go into the--then Air Force as an officer when you graduated. And I wanted to go into the Air Force and fly airplanes. I wanted to be a pilot. And they said, " ; Great, that' ; s what we need. We need more pilots." ; So, I' ; m getting ready to--my junior year, um--now, my junior year, they sent us to, um, boot camp down in Harlingen, Texas, the hottest place in the world. (laughs) You don' ; t want to go to Harlingen, Texas. But, uh, that was about a four week--uh, living in hell. I mean, it was--they put you through paces, you had to do calisthenics every morning, you had to run every afternoon, you had to keep your, uh, room spotless--spotless. Uh, we did get to go out on the shooting range and--and, uh, learn how to use weapons. But anyway, uh, I bit my fingernails as a--as a kid--as a--as a--undergraduate, I bit my fingernails. Well, the Air Force had a--a rule that if you bit your fingernails, you couldn' ; t, uh, go into pilot training and (??)-- FERNHEIMER: How--why was that? SOLOMON: Well, it was a--it was a--their--symptom of a person that was not steady enough or reliable enough to become a pilot. But we had a Jewish guy who was the head of the ROTC, Air Force ROTC program at the University of Kentucky named Captain Stern. And Captain Stern took a liking to me and realized I had this problem with my nails. And so, he called my mother in Louisville--(laughs)--and talked to my mother about my biting my nails. So, she came up here, and the two of them met with me to talk about how do I stop biting my nails? And they tried several things. My mother finally coated my nails with something. Was terrible tasting stuff, and that got me off--stopped--allowed me to stop biting my nails. So, I was ready to go in the Air Force to become a pilot. I was so excited. And when I graduated, I went to, um, this, uh, kind of a clearinghouse down in Texas. And I was getting ready to get orders to go to a pilot training--and they called me in one day and they said, " ; We' ; ve got some bad news." ; I said, " ; What' ; s that?" ; And this was back, by the way--in 1955, they said they were going to deemphasize pilot training--pilot, uh--uh, piloting--piloted aircraft and emphasize drones. FERNHEIMER: In 1955? SOLOMON: Was 1955, that early. And they had closed half of their pilot training programs. And one of them that they closed was mine. So, they said I--I guess I wasn' ; t able to go into pilot training. So, I--I went into aircraft maintenance, which was fun. But, uh, I never got to be a pilot. (laughs) -----------(??) so I went--that--now, that was an interesting, uh, part of my life, but it didn' ; t have anything to do with college. But when I went into the--the aircraft maintenance school, uh, they bunked me with a guy, a black guy from the--Washington. Bill Dixon. FERNHEIMER: Washington, D.C.? SOLOMON: Washington, D.C. The guy--Bill had--had first year of medical school, then he went into the Air Force. He became--he wanted to become a pilot, also, but--and he washed out of pilot training for some reason. FERNHEIMER: And this was 1955. SOLOMON: Fifty-five. And, uh, anyway, uh, they had this program where I had to--they had--be two people bunked together in a--what they call bachelor' ; s officer' ; s quarters. And I happened to be bunked with--or assigned to the same BOQ as Bill Dixon. And it was the first black guy I ever got to really know, ' ; cause I never met a black guy in school. Never met a black guy in college. And we became bosom buddies. I mean, as close a--friends as you could imagine. We' ; d go to places together, we would, uh, drink together. Uh, and they had a rule-- FERNHEIMER: And this was in Texas? SOLOMON: In--no, this was--now, this was--we went--the school we went to was in Illinois, in Rantoul, Illinois. Chanute Air Force Base. FERNHEIMER: And, okay, can I stop here for-- SOLOMON: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --a second to ask a couple questions? SOLOMON: Sure. FERNHEIMER: When you guys went out to socialize, were you treated differently because you were with him and he was a person of color, at the time? SOLOMON: Well, we--most of what we did was on the base. FERNHEIMER: Mm. SOLOMON: You know, the base was color blind. But, uh, after, uh, after we were in the BO--BA--well, (??) bachelor' ; s officer' ; s quarters for the first four months--uh, we were required to be there. But after that, we could move out into town if we wanted to. And he was married and had a baby, which--couldn' ; t bring to the base for the first four months. But he wanted them to bring his wife and baby to live with them. And so, he wanted to go out and get a--an apartment. And we were so close, I said, " ; Well, let' ; s go get apartments next door to each other." ; And so, we decided that that' ; s what we were going to do. So, he would, uh--he would--now, Bill--Bill, if you got on the phone with Bill, you wouldn' ; t know he was black, uh, ' ; cause he was from Washington, D.C. and he kinda had a--a neutral sounding voice. So, he' ; d call for an apartment and they' ; d say, " ; Sure, come on out." ; But when he' ; d get there, they' ; d see he was black and they would say, " ; Oh, you know, we just rented that apartment. Sorry about that." ; And that happened to him, like, three times. And so, it was really bothering me, because, uh, here was my good friend and they--he couldn' ; t get an apartment. We' ; d--we wanted to get apartments together, and he wanted to bring his baby and his wife, and this was very disconcerting to both of us. So, we went to the--there was assistant base commander who was--black guy. And we went to see him, and he was astounded. He didn' ; t realize--uh, Rantoul, Illinois' ; s a little country, Illinois town. Probably no more than-- FERNHEIMER: How do you spell it? SOLOMON: Uh, R-A-N-T-O-U-L. Rantoul, Illinois. About a hundred miles south of Chicago. Probably about three thousand people that lived there. I mean, really teeny town, and totally dependent on the Air Force Base, because there were probably twenty thousand people on the base. (laughs) Uh, all the--drugstore, the grocery stores, they all depended on the--they were all dependent on the base. Well, anyway, the--the general, uh, lived on the base. They had nice, big--big houses for the generals, and he didn' ; t realize that there was this problem. So, he said, " ; Well, I' ; m going to fix that." ; So, he issued an order that said the town of Rantoul is off limits. No military people can enter the town until Dixon gets an apartment. (laughs) Well, that afternoon, the phones started ringing. And he had three offers for an apartment. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. SOLOMON: And so, he--the two of us got apartments right next door to each other. He brought his wife and his baby, and the two of us, we' ; d party to--we' ; d eat lunch, we had dinner to--he' ; d eat at my house, I' ; d eat at his house. His wife would fix dinner for us. And we just became really good friends. And it, you know, was an experience that I think most white people never have. A really close black friend. It' ; s very unusual. I mean, how would that happen? How do you have a really close black friend--and--and I was just lucky enough to, uh, accidentally get bunked with him in the--in the Air Force. Anyway, he--he--he went back to medical school, got a--his medical degree, got on the drugs and killed himself. FERNHEIMER: Oh. SOLOMON: Sad story, but-- FERNHEIMER: How--sorry, go on. SOLOMON: No, that' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: That is very sad. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: How did you--how would you describe your relationship with Bill Dixon impacting the way that you thought about yourself and your own identity? Did-- SOLOMON: Well, I think it--it made me--I learned--learned a lot about the black community from him, and the--how tough it is to live in the black community. I--I would go to Washington, uh, and--after we were out of the Air Force, and I was working. I' ; d go to conventions in Washington periodically and, uh, we' ; d go to dinner together. But he' ; d--one night he wanted me to come to his house for dinner and I--he said, " ; But now don' ; t drive to my house." ; I said, " ; Why' ; s that?" ; He said, " ; Well, it' ; s very dangerous for white people." ; So, he said, " ; I' ; ll--you--you drive to this place and I' ; ll drive there and I' ; ll pick you up and I' ; ll bring you back to my house, because you--you must not drive here." ; It was a really--you know, there' ; s a lot of animosity about white--black--black community has--I--I guess you' ; d call it a lot of hatred for white people, and a lot of white people have a lot of hatred for black people. And it' ; s--continues today, you know? But it was really bad in Washington, D.C. Especially Washington. FERNHEIMER: And this was in the late ' ; 50s? SOLOMON: But anyway, it made me--I don' ; t know, it probably changed my whole life about how I feel about black people. I never had an opportunity to know one, really know a person, deeply, and share stories and family, I--stories and history and heartaches and things like that with another human being. It' ; s a--I thought it was a--just a great accidental experience for me. FERNHEIMER: And did he know you were Jewish? SOLOMON: Oh, yeah, sure, sure, why, (??) he was--he was, uh, more of an atheist, I guess, than anything else. He wasn' ; t interested in religion. And I wasn' ; t that interested in Judaism, either, at the time. I didn' ; t--I don' ; t think I ever went to temple when I was in the Air Force. We' ; d--we--end up in the officer' ; s quarters drinking beer more than--(laughs)--more--more of the time. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And what about--I' ; m going to take us back a little bit--when you were a student at the fraternity, uh, UK, uh, how did that impact the way you think about your identity or your Jewish identity? SOLOMON: Uh, well, because I was, uh, part of Jewish--community, the fraternity, that was my--that was my world. That was my Jewish world. And, uh, most--I don' ; t think most of us went to temple, except may high--high holy holidays. Uh, we didn' ; t go to temple on Friday nights. Uh, probably be, you know, going out to parties, uh, or something like that more of the time than temple. I--I think I went to temple on Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and that was about it. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So, was that--you said--you mentioned that football games took you off campus sometimes, to other universities. And it sounds like the holidays brought you off campus to the local synagogue or temple-- SOLOMON: --uh-huh-- FERNHEIMER: --at the time. Do you have any impressions of Jewish life in Lexington at the time you were a university student? SOLOMON: I--well-- FERNHEIMER: Or can you describe your impressions of-- SOLOMON: I got to know the parents of a lot of these kids. The Winnikers' ; parents--uh, especially Earl Levy' ; s parents would--I' ; d be over at their house, at Earl' ; s house half the time. I mean, they' ; d--his mother and father would--kind of took me in as a--another kid, another--another child in their family, almost. And the Blumfields, uh, were, uh, I knew them. So, some of the parents were very, uh, inviting to, uh, young--young Jewish kids. So, we had a--that kind of a relationship, yeah. FERNHEIMER: Well, did you--were there any experiences of anti-Semitism while you were at the university? SOLOMON: You know, I didn' ; t experience that. Uh, I thought about that not too long ago. Why--why wasn' ; t there anti-Semitism in--in--but there wasn' ; t at the University of Kentucky. I didn' ; t experience it. If--there was -----------(??) the KAs (??) were known to be very, very bigoted, especially about blacks. Course, there weren' ; t any blacks in--in undergraduate college when--when I was--as--undergraduate. We had a graduate student in the--grad--a graduate--black graduate student, I think. But black students weren' ; t--weren' ; t allowed to enroll at the University of Kentucky until after I graduated, as an undergraduate. Uh, but I never experienced any anti-Semitism. Uh, it might have been there and it might have been, uh, covert. But it--I never experienced it. I don' ; t know why. You' ; d think that there would be some. FERNHEIMER: So, not in the university, not in the--in the military? Did you have any experience-- SOLOMON: No, not in the military, either. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: I was very lucky, uh--I, uh--(laughs)--I' ; m--in fact, in my whole life, I' ; ve almost never experienced anti-Semitism, personally. Yeah, I' ; ve heard people say things once in a while. You know, " ; Don' ; t Jew me down," ; or--uh, I had an--a discussion once with a person who was, uh--uh, I--I mean, you know, I was saying, " ; Well, most people want more money. That' ; s really what most people are after." ; They said, " ; Oh, no, no, no, no. Most people want to do the right thing." ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know what rock you' ; re living under." ; And they said, " ; Well, that' ; s just because you' ; re--Jewish background. You don' ; t understand." ; (laughs) I said, " ; What? (laughs) What do you mean by that?" ; (laughs) FERNHEIMER: When was that? That was later in life? Earlier in life? SOLOMON: That was about a year ago. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. SOLOMON: Yeah, yeah. I thought that was almost comical. FERNHEIMER: And that was here in town? SOLOMON: Uh, no, that was actually, uh, in another city. But, uh, I--I was on vacation and talking to a person. But anyway, uh, that--I actually almost never experienced anti-Semitism. I was very fortunate, I guess, in that regard-- FERNHEIMER: Uh -- SOLOMON: --uh-- FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me--um, you told me a little bit about your experiences in the military and your involvement in the Jewish fraternity in college was pretty strong. Um, what' ; s your involvement in the Jewish community like now? Or -----------(??) SOLOMON: Now? FERNHEIMER: --as an adult after college? SOLOMON: Well, after college, I, uh--after (??)--worked at several different universities and retired in, uh, 1997. Uh, when I left, I--well, when I--had an interesting experience. When I came back to college, at the University of Kentucky in 1958--I came back to graduate school. In the--well, when I graduated, went into the Air Force, stayed in the Air Force for a couple years. Got out of the Air Force, went back to, uh--got married, uh, went back to Louisville to work with my dad. Always wanted to be in business with my dad. My dad had a little, uh, unfinished furniture store, and he would make furniture for people. They' ; d come in and say, " ; I want a bookcase that' ; s this wide, that tall, this many shelves." ; Uh, and so he would do that. So, I--I went into business with him, but we didn' ; t have enough money for me to get a salary. (laughs) So, I lived with--we lived--my wife and my baby and my, uh, self, we lived with my mother and dad, which was a disaster. And I worked with him in the business for about a year and--uh, maybe two--and realized that wasn' ; t going to work. So, I decided to go back to college and get a degree and become an accountant and get--become a CPA [certified public accountant] and go out and make money. And so, uh, I--when I got back to college, I--uh, well, I had some--so (??)--experiences, so many wonderful experience--and the first thing that happened was they--and, uh, go to graduate school, to--in order to go to graduate school, I had to get an adviser. So, they--they assigned me an adviser, a guy named, uh, Dr. Kuhlson. (??) And what was his first name? Anyway, Kuhlson was a strange fellow. He would--he' ; d look strange and he' ; d look at you in a strange way, you know? But he was--we were working on my schedules and, uh, I told him what courses I wanted to take, and he looked at that and he said, " ; Mmm, well, you sure you want to take these courses?" ; I said, " ; Well, I--I have to take this course and that course to be" ; --said, " ; They' ; re prerequisites to what I want to take next year, which is prerequisites to one other thing." ; (??) " ; Oh," ; he said, " ; Well," ; he said, " ; I might not see you next year." ; I said, " ; Why' ; s that?" ; He said, " ; Well, because you' ; ll probably flunk out." ; I said, " ; Why is that?" ; He said, " ; These are some of the hardest courses we' ; ve got, and you' ; re taking three of them in one semester. I don' ; t think that' ; s a good idea." ; I said, " ; Well--have to do it." ; But it scared the heck out of me. And, of course, in high school, I just kind of breezed along and didn' ; t pay much attention, did--did as little as I had to do, and I realized I had to work hard. And I did. And that saved me, because--(laughter)--every night, I' ; d go home and really study. And it got me through. But I had, uh, two friends that, uh, are--uh, befriended in--in graduate school when I was going--getting an MBA [master' ; s degree in business administration]. I was going to get my MBA--took about a year and a half to get the MBA, and then I was going to go out and get a job as an accountant. But they were going on to get Ph.D.s [Doctor of Philosophy]. And so, we became very, very close friends. We' ; d study together, we would go out and drink together. Uh, let' ; s see, one of them was married--both of them were married, and I--and I was married. All three of us were married, yeah. And, uh, we-- FERNHEIMER: And was your wife and family here in town when you-- SOLOMON: Yeah. Well, we--when I moved--we moved from Louisville--and when I went to graduate school, of course, they came with me. So, we became three families that were close together, and after a while I decided, well, they' ; re going to go get Ph.D.s, why don' ; t I--I' ; m going to stay with ' ; em. (laughter) So, three of us went through the Vh.D.--Ph.D. program together. FERNHEIMER: Who were the friends? SOLOMON: Dale Osburn (??) was one of them. Dale went on--he got a Ph.D. in economics--well, we all got Ph.D.s in economics. Uh, got Ph.D. in economics and went on to work for the Federal Reserve. And then, he went on to become the chairman of the economics department at the University of Texas in Dallas. And then Jim Gibson--now, neither of these guys were Jewish. Jim Gibson was my other compatriot. And Jim, uh, went off and--and be--worked at the--as a professor at the University of Texas, Arlington. I think he' ; s--worked there until he retired. And then he came back here, and we--we see each other now and then. Actually, I see both of them periodically. Dale--Dale lives in Texas, and he comes here about once a year. And Jim lives in Danville, and I see him a couple times a year. But anyway, we were very close. And, uh, the--uh, when I was a--started teaching, uh, another--you know, sometimes things that look like disasters turn out to be real opportunities. And, uh, one of the biggest changes--uh, turning points in my life came when I was a--a--teaching. When I first came back to graduate school, uh, I had to support myself somehow, so I--I got a job teaching--uh, well, first of--I found a job as a--a research associate to this professor who was doing, uh, research on coal mines in eastern Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: And, uh, my job was to do statistical analysis for him. He would bring in data and I would do some, uh, multiple correlations, multiple regressions on the data so he could predict things like income and these sorts of things. Uh, but to do one regression, we had these, uh, accounting machines called Monroe accounting machines. And to do one regression would take about an hour, maybe an hour, two hours. But then, when you did that one regression, you had to do it a second time, because there were so many steps, you wanted to see if you made any mistakes. And if you had the same--got the same results the second time as you got the first time. And then, if they were different, you had to do it a third time to see which of the two was correct. But it took hours, hours to do one of these things. And so, I heard that there was a computer in the university, over in McVey Hall. So, I went over there one day and I--there was this guy with--happened to be the director. And I got to--I--into conversation with him, and I said, uh, " ; Can--can a computer do statistical--multiple regressions?" ; " ; Oh," ; he said, " ; that' ; s what they' ; re made--made for. That--that' ; s--that' ; s their shtick, you know? That' ; s what they can do." ; I said, " ; Really?" ; He said, " ; Yeah." ; He said--I said, " ; How--can you show me how to do that?" ; He said, " ; Well, yeah." ; He said, " ; The, uh, you take these little cards and you punch up your data and do that--punch up your old (??) data," ; and he showed me how to do that. And he said, " ; When you get finished, come and see me." ; So, it took me about, oh, an hour to punch up all the data. And I took it back to him and he said -----------(??) deck of cards to--I don' ; t know if you ever seen a punched card, but they' ; re--they' ; re about that long--they' ; re like a card--cardstock, like a credit card thick, and about that big. And you punch little holes in ' ; em, and the holes are numbers or letters. So, he took this deck of cards and he put it in this computer reader, pressed a button. The cards went ch-ch-ch-ch, went through the thing. And within ten seconds, the results started printing. And I thought my God, that is a miracle. That is what I' ; ve been looking for! So, I wanted to learn everything I could about computers. FERNHEIMER: What year was this? SOLOMON: Huh? FERNHEIMER: What year was this that you brought the-- SOLOMON: This was about 1960, ' ; 61, maybe. And, uh, so every afternoon, uh, when I had some time, I' ; d go over there to learn more about computers. He' ; d give me a book once in a while and I' ; d take it home and read it and then come back. I got to know him pretty well and, uh, he taught me a lot. But I was teaching statistics courses--uh, but--oh, I--when I finished my job on--with the statistician--as a--I got a job teaching, uh, undergraduates statistics courses. And I taught--first semester, I taught one course, the next semester I taught two. I finished my course work, and so I ended up teaching four sections of basic statistics. And I was getting two hundred and fifty dollars a month. And it wasn' ; t quite enough to make ends meet with a wife and a baby and a car and utilities and insurance and--so, one day, I went to the dean and I said, uh, " ; Dean," ; I said, " ; Uh, you know, I' ; m having a hard time getting by on two hundred and fifty dollars a month. Is there any way I could get a--maybe a little raise of some kind?" ; He said, " ; Marty," ; he said, um, he said, " ; I got bad news and bad news." ; He said, " ; The first bad news is I just got a budget cut, and I can' ; t possibly give you any more money." ; But he said, " ; The other bad news is, you know, every summer, you' ; ve been teaching a course for us. And this summer, they cut out my budget for summer school, so I won' ; t have a job for you this summer." ; And I thought oh my God, my world' ; s coming to an end. What am I gonna do? I--you know, I--I--so, I walked out of his office, distraught, just dismayed, and who comes across the campus but John Hamlin, the guy from the computing center? And he said, " ; How you doing?" ; I said, " ; Well," ; I said, " ; okay." ; He said, " ; Let--let me ask you." ; He said, " ; What are you going to be doing this summer? What are you going to be doing this summer?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know." ; He said, " ; Well," ; he said, " ; let me tell you, I just got a grant, and I need somebody to work over at the computing center this summer." ; I said, " ; I' ; m your man! I' ; m your man!" ; (laughs) He said, " ; But there' ; s only one problem." ; I said, " ; What' ; s that?" ; He said, " ; Well, it' ; s only a half-time job." ; I said, " ; Oh." ; He said, " ; It only pays two hundred and fifty dollars a month." ; (laughter) I thought, mmm! (laughs) Wait a minute! A half-time job that pays two hundred and fifty dollars a month, and I' ; ve been working full time for two hundred and fifty dollars a month. I' ; m gonna go with you! (laughs) So, I went over there and worked that summer. The next year, I worked for him half time. And the next year, I worked for him full time. And, uh, that was my start in computing. Uh, changed my whole life, ' ; cause, you know, I started out to be an accountant, then I got into computers--computing. And the--then, unfortunately, a--a couple years later, the director got killed in a--airplane accident, and they made me director of the computing center, which, again, changed my whole life. It just was a--a wonderful thing. And a--a--you know, instead of being a--one faculty member in a department of fifty, I was one director in a department of, you know, one. (laughs) And so, uh, so that, uh, that turned out to be a great experience for me. But it was, you know, at--when I walked out of the dean' ; s office, I was so distraught, I was--thought that my world was coming to an end, and it turned out it was a--just an--opening a door to a marvelous new opportunity. FERNHEIMER: And how many years did you direct the computing center? From--which years? SOLOMON: Till ' ; 83. FERNHEIMER: So, from--and when did you start? SOLOMON: Uh, about 19--probably about ' ; 65, ' ; 68, something like that. I--I started as a programmer, and then I became assistant director, and then, when the director got killed, I became the director. Uh, but then that opened the door for me, and they had an opening at Ohio State as the director of computing there, which was a--a nice bump in pay and a--course, a bigger university. So, I took that job and, uh, this funny thing, when I went to the--Ohio State, uh, the president at Ohio State had a--uh, had a routine in which he' ; d interview each new employee personally. Every new employee. And when the--my turn to--to, uh, be interviewed, I went to his office and sat down, and we had a nice chat. And somehow, it' ; s--during the conversation, he--he said, " ; I' ; m going to be here for about seven years." ; And I thought that' ; s strange. I said, " ; Why would you say that?" ; He said, " ; Well," ; he says, " ; I have seven publics." ; He said, " ; I' ; ve got the students, see, I got the faculty, I' ; ve got the football fans, I' ; ve got the legislature, I' ; ve got the governor, uh, I' ; ve got this, I' ; ve got that." ; He said, " ; Now, every year, I' ; m going to make a big decision that' ; s going to piss off one of those." ; (laughs) He said, " ; Now, in seven years, I' ; m going to make a decision that pisses off every one of them, and I' ; m going to be gone." ; (laughs) And sure enough, in seven years, he was gone. (laughter) But I went to him--before he left, I said--I said, " ; You know, Mr. President, I--I--you' ; re--you ever thought about having--creating a vice president for computing?" ; I was director of computing. And he said, " ; No." ; He said, " ; I' ; ve--I' ; ve tried that out" ; --and he was president at Wyoming before that. He said, " ; We had that at Wyoming and I don' ; t--it didn' ; t work very well. So, I' ; m not going to do that here." ; So, I thought, well, okay, but I' ; d really like to be a vice president. And so, there--turned out that there was a guy at the University of South Carolina who was a voice president who died. He' ; d had a heart attack, he died. And there was an opening there, so I sent a resume over, and sure enough, I got the letter back saying come on over for an interview. So, I went over for an interview. And, uh, interviewed and went home, nothing happened. I thought, well, that was--that' ; s that. But then, about a month later, I get this phone call from this secretary. She said, " ; We want you to come here and look for a house." ; I thought look for a house? (laughs) " ; I don' ; t have a job!" ; She said, " ; Oh, you' ; ll have the job." ; (laughs) So, I went to the University of South Carolina as a vice president, and that was a great experience. And the guy there was the--uh, provost was a wonderful, wonderful guy. Uh, Art Smith. And, uh, he helped me a lot. Uh, but then the president at South Carolina got himself into trouble--actually went to jail, and a new president came in. Well, while they were looking for a new president, Art put his hat in the ring to be president. And it turned out Art didn' ; t get the job, and he was--but he wanted to be president somewhere. And he ended up as president at the University of Utah. So, when he went to Utah, uh, at some point he called me and asked me if I wanted to come to Utah, and I said, " ; Well" ; --he said, " ; I--I want to create a job for you here at the University of Utah, a chief information officer." ; So, I said--uh, I said, " ; Great, great." ; Yeah, I' ; d love to work for this guy. So, that' ; s when I went to University of Utah. I was there for two years, and he left, and I just--that was 197--1997. When he left, I decided to retire. FERNHEIMER: And then you moved back to-- SOLOMON: Came back here, yeah. FERNHEIMER: So, through all this experience, when you were developing your expertise in computing and computer science, and you had your family with you, tell me a little bit about what your Jewish life looked like then. Were you members of temple or synagogues? Did you--what--what kinds of values did you focus on with your children? SOLOMON: I was just a workaholic. I--I--and that' ; s one of the greatest--probably--uh, when I look back--you know, there' ; s an old saying, nobody ever--on their dying--deathbed ever said I spent too little time at the office. Uh, but I was one of those people that--I' ; d work seven days a week. Uh, I didn' ; t spend enough time with my family. Uh, ended up with a divorce. (laughs) And, uh, one child that, uh, was alienated from. So, I--both of them. I had two daughters, they--I was really alienated from both of them until later on. And, uh, one of ' ; em died. The other one became real--great friend of mine. She' ; s now a wonderful friend, daughter. But it was--uh, I spent almost all the time working. Uh, I--now, I did spend some time in--in Utah, we had one temple. Uh, it was a--interesting thing, because they had a--a--a Conservative congregation, a Reform congregation, and an Orthodox congregation in one temple with one rabbi. (laughs) And they' ; d have--uh, Friday night, they' ; d have Reform services. Saturday morning, they' ; d have Conservative services. And then, they had a little chapel, uh, which would hold about twenty-five people and, uh, they would have, uh, Orthodox services there on Friday night. Uh, but that was a--well, a great experience, ' ; cause, uh, everybody was part of the same melting pot, in a sense, but, uh, with their own identities, you know? So, I spent a lot of time there. Course, my brother was the--before that, my brother was the--I think I mentioned he was the director of the Jewish community center, and he had a great--he died before I moved to Utah. But, uh, he had a great reputation, so I--I--when I came there, everybody had open arms for me, uh, in the Jewish community. So, I got to know a lot of people, had a great experience there. FERNHEIMER: How--how--describe the kind of differences or similarities in your experiences in Utah and your experiences here in Kentucky in Jewish life. SOLOMON: How are they different? FERNHEIMER: Or how are they similar? Just--can you tell me a little bit about one in comparison to the other? SOLOMON: Uh, well, actually, it' ; s--when I was in Utah, I think I' ; d go to temple maybe once every two months. High holy days, of course. When I came back to Lexington, I was always--I' ; ve never been in a--a--anything but a Reform temple. When I was a kid in Louisville, we were members of a Reform temple -----------(??) Israel. And they didn' ; t even have bar mitzvahs. It was--you had confirmations. It was that liberal. That was that--almost secular, you know? Uh, everything was in English. There was no Hebrew in services in those days. Uh, kids didn' ; t learn Hebrew. I didn' ; t--I never learned Hebrew. Uh, when I came back to, uh, Lexington, moved back here after I retired, my best friends Earl and Sarah Levy--and they were in the synagogue, the--or--Conservative synagogue. So, I decided to join the synagogue, but I' ; d never been in a--Conservative synagogue before. And it was a shock. (laughs) ' ; Cause, you know, the only three English--the only four English words that are ever used in the synagogue is " ; You may be seated." ; (laughter) They--everything else is in Hebrew, you know? And I don' ; t know a word of Hebrew. (laughs) So--but it was, uh, a nice--I wanted to support the--the, uh, synagogue financially. Uh, but then, uh, I also decided I wanted to support the temple as well. So, I joined both of them. And so, I--uh, now I typically go to services on Friday night at the temple and--and services on Saturday morning at the synagogue. And so, I have friends in both, uh, both places. And as we, you know, mentioned earlier, this--they' ; re two different worlds. Uh, the people in the synagogue -----------(??) traditionally socialize with people in the synagogue. People in the temple socialize with people in the temple. And very seldom do you have any, uh, cross-fertilization, I guess you' ; d call it. We have a group of guys that have, uh, a--Jewish guys that have Friday lunch every week. And everybody in the group is from the temple except Earl Levy. Earl comes, but he' ; s the only synagogue guy, ' ; cause--and so, it' ; s a--very seldom do you see a--a--any kind of a get-together with a mixture. And I-- FERNHEIMER: --um-- SOLOMON: --that' ; s too bad. FERNHEIMER: How--how did the lunch bunch come about, this group of gentlemen who have lunch--who--who else goes? Earl, you-- SOLOMON: Oh, there were--there' ; re about twelve people that are--uh, I don' ; t know how it came about, but just one day somebody said to me, years ago, " ; There' ; s a group that gets together for lunch every Friday, why don' ; t you join us?" ; And I said, " ; Well, sure!" ; You know? So, I--I joined. And, uh, I joined B' ; nai B' ; rith. Now there' ; s another organization, B' ; nai B' ; rith. And it has about twenty-five members, thirty members. It' ; s another, uh, nice organiza--they have two functions a year. You get--uh, typically you go to a baseball game once a year, and then typically, there' ; s a--or three things a year. Baseball game, outing, a, uh, sports cookout, and then some kind of a brunch with a speaker, a--typically something to do with state government or city government or some dignitary, you know, like (??)-- FERNHEIMER: Huh. Couple years ago, they sponsored one with President Capilouto, right? Was that B' ; nai B' ; rith? SOLOMON: Right, right, B' ; nai B' ; rith, right. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, so those three things--how many people are members of--the B' ; nai B' ; rith, it' ; s a men' ; s organization? Or is it B' ; nai B' ; rith-- SOLOMON: Well, there are some women--uh, wives, typically, that are--that come. They' ; re members, I guess. It' ; s typically a men' ; s organization. Been a--it' ; s been a men' ; s--or--I guess. Probably about thirty--about (??) thirty people. And, uh, so there' ; s a temple, the synagogue and the B' ; nai B' ; rith are the three organizations that I spend most of my--my time with, you know? Uh-- FERNHEIMER: How would you say your Jewishness is different from or similar to that of your parents? SOLOMON: My parents were very secular. We didn' ; t talk about Judaism in our family. Uh, I' ; m not even sure that when I was a kid we went to high holy days services. I went to--I remember I went to Sunday school. But with--yeah, (??) Sunday school was a place where on Sunday, you know, there' ; d be a--some--a volunteer teacher who would talk about Bible stories. I think they--they--they tried to teach us the Hebrew alphabet. (laughs) Well, I learned alpha--(laughs) Aleph, Aleph, Aleph. Uh, I learned the Greek alphabet better than the Jewish alphabet. (laughs) The Hebrew alphabet. Uh, I don' ; t remember--you know, they were very non--they were very secular. They--I don' ; t remember religion being brought up in the family. Now, in our fraternity, there was a lot of talk about Judaism. Uh, we--course, we were all Jewish, and we' ; d be proud of that, you know? We were real--very proud of being Jewish. Uh, but not in my family. And my brothers, same way. They, uh--although my brother' ; s, uh, kids were bar mitzvahed. I was never bar mitzvahed because I' ; m--uh, I was confirmed. You had to give a speech, that' ; s all you had to do. And I don' ; t even remember what I talked about, but, uh, yeah, it was very secular in my growing up. Uh, that' ; s probably why, when I went to college, I didn' ; t really spend any--much time going to temple. I' ; d just go to temple sometimes when some of the other guys were going, and I' ; d go with them. But it wasn' ; t like a commitment. Uh, since I came back to, uh, college, to--to Lexington--I' ; ve been here now fifteen years, uh, I made a much greater commitment to Judaism than I ever did before. I don' ; t know why except, uh, the community, being part of the community, part of the Jewish community made me feel good. Uh, part of something, you know? You want to be part of something. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So, that--it sounds like your relationship to Judaism has--has changed a lot over the years, uh-- SOLOMON: What worries me is that--uh, the future. You know, in the--in Lexington, these, uh, Jewish kids will get bat mitzvahed or bar--bar mitzvahed. They come to--they--uh, before they' ; re bar mitzvahed, you see ' ; em in--in temple or in synagogue, uh, periodically, and then they get bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed, you never see ' ; em again. And, uh, part of the reason for that is there isn' ; t what--what I had when I was growing up was we had this Jewish fraternity, uh, which allowed kids to get together, have fun together, go places together, do things together. And they don' ; t have that in Lexington, and it' ; s--it' ; s--uh, for some years now, there' ; s--temple has had a--a Jewish youth group called, uh, NFTY [North American Federation of Temple Youth]. And the synagogue has had a youth group called BBYO [B' ; nai B' ; rith Youth Organization]. And neither one of ' ; em have much mass. You know, I don' ; t know how many kids from either [??] but the--apparently, there aren' ; t very many kids. And for years, I' ; ve been trying to get ' ; em to put ' ; em--put these together, at least to have it--that in common. Um, with more kids together--would probably be a good thing. But, uh, up until now, the rabbi at the temple was vehemently against that. I don' ; t know whether he thought Conservative people would pollute the kids or--(laughs)--what. But, um, he--well, he didn' ; t want to have any part of it. Now, the new rabbi coming in, I think, is more, uh, amenable. We' ; re going to try to see if we can' ; t get something done there. But, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, Rabbi Klein was not in favor of -----------(??) SOLOMON: He was definitely not. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Not in favor. Uh, but Rabbi Smolkin (??) is. And, uh, I think Rabbi Werchafter (??) is, also. I talked to him briefly about it, and he said that was one of the things on his to-do list. Now, I took--I took that as a yes. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: So, uh-- FERNHEIMER: How does your relationship to Jewish-- SOLOMON: But the other thing about today that worries me is that-- FERNHEIMER: Sorry, I didn' ; t-- SOLOMON: You know, as Reform Judaism becomes more traditional--you know, there' ; s more Hebrew, there' ; s more, uh, uh, attention to the Torah than there used to be, uh, more attention to, uh, uh, Haphtarah, reading the Haphtarah in the Reform that the young people are--I think that--I think that' ; s going to turn them off even more. I think it--they' ; re going to see this as--well, the--first of all, they don' ; t see religion as very relevant any--in--in the first place. And I think when we--we go--we move more to--traditionally, they' ; re going to see--of it--even less relevant. And I don' ; t think that' ; s good for the--for Judaism. Uh, but that' ; s the way things are going, and--no question about it. FERNHEIMER: I--I' ; m sorry, I didn' ; t mean to interrupt you before. SOLOMON: No, no, go ahead. FERNHEIMER: But while we' ; re talking about children, I want to ask about--how does your relationship to Jewish identity in practice compare to your children' ; s relationship to Jewish identity and practice? SOLOMON: Oh, that' ; s a sad story. (laughs) Uh, when I got married, uh, well, my--before I got married, my wife-to-be wasn' ; t Jewish. She was from a little town in eastern Kentucky. Belfry, Kentucky, uh, which had one Jewish family. And, you know, in the--in the hills, they always thought--as Jews as kind of strange people, you know? Kind of suspicious, then--then--different, real different. In fact, in some places, they' ; d have a--a Jewish family and they' ; d--you know, instead of calling him Mr.--Mr. Rose, Mr. Jones, Mr.--" ; the Jew" ; . You know, " ; the Jew came in here the other day." ; Uh, anyway, she came from one of those little towns where they had no Jewish people. And, uh, probably a lot of anti-Semitism, just because Jews are different, you know? But anyway, we were--wanted to get married, and we went to see the rabbi in Louisville. And he said, " ; Well," ; he said, " ; I--I' ; ll marry you under one condition, and that is if you agree to bring your children up Jewish." ; So, her parents came to this meeting, my parents came to the meeting, my brothers came to the meeting, her--her brothers came to the meeting. We all agreed that' ; s what we' ; re going to do. So, we--I was in the Air Force at the time, so we get back in the Air Force and the baby' ; s born. And, lo and behold, about two years later, she came to me and she said, " ; I can' ; t do this." ; I said, " ; What do you mean you can' ; t do this?" ; She said, " ; I can' ; t bring up the children Jewish." ; I said, " ; Why is that?" ; She said, " ; Because they' ; ll be discriminated against all the rest of their lives, and I don' ; t want that for my children." ; And I told her, " ; Well, it wasn' ; t like--wasn' ; t that bad and, yeah, there' ; s discrimination, but it' ; s--this is what we agreed to!" ; She said, " ; I can' ; t do it. Can' ; t do it. Can' ; t do it." ; So, they grew up without any religious training at all. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: Uh, she became part of the Unitarian Church, and the Unitarian Church is sort of like a social club, you know? They don' ; t really talk about religion. They talk about social issues, which is probably--may--as important if not more important religion! (laughs) Uh, but--uh, they didn' ; t get any religious training at all. Uh, so I--I feel badly about that, but that' ; s the way it--it happened, you know? FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry, I didn' ; t mean to bring up something-- SOLOMON: No, no, that' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: --difficult, uh-- SOLOMON: It wasn' ; t--no, it' ; s not difficult. Actually, uh, it' ; s the way things are. You can' ; t, you know, cry over spilled milk. FERNHEIMER: How did you meet your wife, uh, from this small town? SOLOMON: In college. FERNHEIMER: In college? SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: At UK? SOLOMON: At UK, yeah, uh--uh, actually, I took her to a fraternity--one of our fraternity parties, and we started dating after that, and one thing lead to another. FERNHEIMER: So, was there a lot of mixed dating while you were in the fraternity? SOLOMON: Yeah. I' ; d say almost nobody dated Jewish girls. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And why was that? SOLOMON: Uh, I don' ; t know. Uh, I think maybe, uh--uh, non-Jewish girls were more attractive to guys, you know? They were blondes and svelte and, uh, things like that. Uh, I--I don' ; t know. I--I never--I never dated a Jewish girl in the whole time I was in college. I--I didn' ; t date that many women. I probably dated four different women--(laughs)--in four years. But, uh, I wasn' ; t big in dating, uh, but I had to take somebody to that Saturday night party! (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So, you-- SOLOMON: I--I didn' ; t want to wait on other people. FERNHEIMER: -----------(??) SOLOMON: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: So, how would you say, uh-- SOLOMON: There weren' ; t very many Jewish girls, that' ; s part of it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: Yeah, there were only about six or seven Jewish girls that we knew about. FERNHEIMER: So, there were way more men, Jewish men-- SOLOMON: Yeah, about thirty or-- FERNHEIMER: --on campus at the time. SOLOMON: --thirty or so men, yeah. So-- FERNHEIMER: That' ; s not a lot of women to go around. SOLOMON: No, not at all. FERNHEIMER: And did-- SOLOMON: And--you know, and--and just to be frank, most of the Jewish girls weren' ; t very good-looking, which--which didn' ; t help them a--a lot, you know? FERNHEIMER: Did--were they interested in dating--in Jewish men? Or were they here to date whomever when they were here? Did they-- SOLOMON: -----------(??) FERNHEIMER: --socialize with you, the sorority, Phi Sigma Sigma? SOLOMON: I' ; m sure they wanted to date. I mean, I--I, well, I would just assume they did. Uh, everybody likes to go out and have fun. Uh, but I don' ; t--can' ; t answer that question. I just don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. While you were president, were there organized functions with the Z--Jewish fraternity and the Jewish sorority? Or they-- SOLOMON: --no-- FERNHEIMER: --did their own things? SOLOMON: They did their own things. Uh, I don' ; t ever remember a joint activity with the sorority. FERNHEIMER: Any sorority or that sorority? SOLOMON: Any sorority. Uh, mostly guys would just get a date on their own and we' ; d have our own party. FERNHEIMER: At the house. SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, how would you say where you grew up in Kentucky and where you' ; ve lived your adult life has affected where--your relationship with Judaism? SOLOMON: Uh, well, I said, in my earliest life, earlier life, when I was a kid, we--I had very little connection--except for my--when I got into high school with--with the Pi Tau Pi fraternity. And some of those guys I' ; m still close with today. Uh, fact, about five years ago, I--I called--there were six or seven of ' ; em that were--live in Louisville, and we all got together and had dinner one night. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SOLOMON: And this was from--God, 195--uh, ' ; 54, ' ; 55. FERNHEIMER: Who--who was-- SOLOMON: I mean--yeah, uh, ' ; 50. No, 1948, ' ; 49. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Who are the gentlemen who are still there in Louisville who were part of Pi Tau Phi? SOLOMON: Who were the what? FERNHEIMER: Who are the gentlemen who are still there who are-- SOLOMON: Oh, gosh, uh, Morris Weiss is a cardiac surgeon. Robert Kessler is a--was a--orthopedic surgeon. Bobby Hertzfeld is a--I think he' ; s an attorney. Bill Fish had (??) owned a clothing store. Uh, Jimmy Droughtman (??), I think, did something with stocks. Uh, yeah, there were a dozen more. FERNHEIMER: And that' ; s the same Robert Kessler who was your next door neighbor? SOLOMON: Yes, Robert. Yeah, Kessler. Yeah. We--uh, back--about five years ago, we had dinner together. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SOLOMON: (laughs) So, uh, yeah, uh, but then, uh, I--I went through a period where I had very little connection with Judaism. Uh, when I was in the Air Force and when I was at these other universities. And then when I--but when I came back to Lexington, I got reconnected with the Jewish community. FERNHEIMER: What was the impetus to reconnect? SOLOMON: Well, my relation--started with my relationship with Earl and Sarah, and Earl and--Earl and Sarah are--are very, um, uh, involved. Sarah knows everybody in the Jewish community. (laughs) And Earl--uh, Earl, he goes to synagogue most every Saturday morning. So, I go there, too. Uh, and then I get involved with, uh, the different groups, the--like--like the lunch group, uh, B' ; nai B' ; rith. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: So, I just--I just keep--keep involved with the Jewish community. Stay involved, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And what' ; s the best part of that for you? SOLOMON: Feeling part of a--I think it' ; s like kids that, you know, become members of a gang. They want--they need a place to belong. They need a place to believe that they' ; re part of something, uh, other than themselves. And I think that' ; s what a Jewish community does for me. It makes me feel part of something bigger. Uh, friends that--uh, it' ; s always good to have friends. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: So, it makes me feel good. FERNHEIMER: Looking back, is there anything you would change about your relationship with Judaism over the years? SOLOMON: Uh, I just wish my kids had been fortunate enough to, uh, get--be involved in Judaism, but they--uh, my daughter is very--you know, the one that' ; s still living is very happy. She' ; s, uh--I guess she' ; s happy. Uh, she doesn' ; t--I think there' ; s a--just kind of religious void in her life that would probably make her feel more a part of something. I don' ; t think she feels part of something except for, you know, the two of us, we have a wonderful relationship. But it' ; s just--it' ; s different to have--be part of a community. FERNHEIMER: Mm. SOLOMON: I don' ; t think she has that. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: And, uh, she calls herself Jewish, but she doesn' ; t do anything about it. (laughs) She calls herself Jewish because I' ; m Jewish, I think. Uh, and, uh, she comes--when--sometimes she' ; ll come here and we' ; ll go to services together. But other than that, she doesn' ; t participate in--where she--and she lives in Columbus, Ohio. FERNHEIMER: And what' ; s her name? SOLOMON: Huh? FERNHEIMER: What' ; s her name? SOLOMON: Elizabeth. FERNHEIMER: Elizabeth-- SOLOMON: --uh-huh-- FERNHEIMER: --Solomon. SOLOMON: Elizabeth Solomon. FERNHEIMER: (inudible) SOLOMON: She works for the, uh, Department of Education in Ohio where they oversee the, uh, school lunch program. FERNHEIMER: Oh. SOLOMON: She' ; s a nutritionist. And they, uh, make--try to make sure that lunches are what they' ; re supposed to be. The right content of calories, fat, sugar, all those things, you know? But, uh, anyway-- FERNHEIMER: One last question for you, Marty, which is--is there anything else you' ; d like to share with me about being Jewish, about living in Kentucky, about what it means to be a Kentuckian who' ; s also Jewish, or anything else I didn' ; t ask about that you' ; d like to share before-- SOLOMON: Uh, I don' ; t know. I guess--I--I think what--what Judaism has brought to me is the, uh, the notion that, uh, God is with me. You know, I, uh, I think that, uh, God is my, uh, conscience. And, uh, every time I start to do something, uh, there' ; s a guy sitting over here. (laughs) And he' ; s--he' ; s saying, " ; Wait a minute. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Think about that. Think about that." ; And, uh, I think Judaism has brought that to me. Uh, and I really do think a lot about right and wrong and, uh, trying to do the right thing. Not that I' ; m bragging, but it' ; s just, uh, something that, uh, that' ; s come to me through Judaism. Now, maybe it' ; s--would come to me some other way, I don' ; t know. But I think Judaism has brought that concept of morality to me. First of all, we talk about it a lot in Colel on Saturday mornings. FERNHEIMER: At the temple, correct? SOLOMON: At the temple. Uh, occasionally we talk about it in services. Not often, but occasionally. FERNHEIMER: And that' ; s at the synagogue? SOLOMON: Either place. FERNHEIMER: Or--either place. SOLOMON: Either place. Uh, I--uh, I get into a lot of discuss--arguments with my Jewish friends because--about Israel, because most of my Jewish friends are, uh, unconditionally supporters of Israel. Whatever they do, it' ; s okay. It' ; s good. It' ; s necessary or it' ; s required or it' ; s justified or it' ; s whatever. And I don' ; t feel that way. Uh, and I think that, uh, I used to, uh, have big, terrible arg--not terrible. Long arguments with Rabbi Roberts, uh, and I told--I' ; d say to him, " ; You know, Rabbi, you shouldn' ; t--you know, every time you--you have a service, in part of the service we say God--uh, peace is our most precious gift. And that' ; s just bullshit. (laughs) Because we don' ; t believe that." ; He said--" ; You know, if we really believed that, we' ; d be working on peace with the Palestinians every day. But we' ; re not. We don' ; t." ; " ; Oh," ; he' ; s--you know, he' ; d say, " ; Well, you know, you can' ; t work with terrorists, you can' ; t do that." ; Peace is not our most precious gift. I think it is. But most Jews don' ; t. At--at least they don' ; t--they don' ; t live their--they don' ; t talk--walk the talk. Walk the talk. And I just wish people--more people would. But, you know, it' ; s funny about--if you say anything supportive of Palestinians, you' ; re typically called a--uh, anti-Semite or you' ; re called a pro-Palestinian, an anti-Israeli, you know? And I say to people, " ; You got to look at both people--these are people. They' ; re all people. They' ; re all--we' ; re all people, you know? And every human being' ; s a person." ; And that really bothers me about Judaism--is--is that we' ; re very hypocritical. Most Jews are hypocritical, you know? They, uh, they say, " ; Well, we had to kill two thousand Gazans because they were sending rockets over." ; And you say, " ; Well, wait a minute, well, why don' ; t we talk about--we' ; re going to do it again, but before we do it again, why don' ; t we sit down and talk to them about what' ; s the problem and how do we deal with the problem? Can we solve the problem?" ; But no, we just sit back and say we can' ; t negotiate with those people, so we' ; ll have to kill them again. Have to kill ' ; em. It just bothers me. Really bothers me. But you can' ; t--you can' ; t really talk about it. Gary--I don' ; t know if you know Gary Yaras? (??) FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SOLOMON: Well, Gary' ; s very outspoken about this, but he' ; s a pariah now in the Jewish community. You know, he' ; s a pariah. They--he--he' ; s--he published an article in Shalom that was--some people took issue with. He was--it was very anti-Zionist. Uh, the--well, just what I' ; ve been talking about, where we' ; re not talking enough about peace. We talk more about war. But--and he was castigated for that article. Just--in fact, the--Shalom printed a retraction later, saying they shouldn' ; t have even published. FERNHEIMER: And that was recently, right? The-- SOLOMON: Huh? FERNHEIMER: When was the article published? Yaras' ; s article? SOLOMON: About three or four months ago. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, it was pretty recent. SOLOMON: And the--the publication committee of Shalom--of the Jewish Federation was pulled over the coals for having published such a--such an article that disagreed with--with the majority of Jews. No, can' ; t disagree with people. And that' ; s so bothersome to me. It' ; s--it' ; s censorship. But that' ; s the way our community is. The Jewish community is so--they feel that Israel is their baby, and you never talk bad about your baby. FERNHEIMER: When--and when you say our community, you mean the whole Jewish community or the Lexington Jewish committee? SOLOMON: The majority--I think the majority--well, certainly the majority of the Jewish community in Lexington. You--you just can' ; t talk about--I talk--I talk to people about the--the boycott--the BDS [Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions] movement that' ; s going on around the country. And it' ; s growing. And people say, " ; Oh, that' ; s just anti-Semitism." ; And I say, " ; No, it' ; s not anti-Semitism! People are concerned about the way Palestinians are being treated, about the way the land is being grabbed up, the way that Eastern (??)--Jews of Jerusalem--Arabs are being treated. They' ; re concerned about those things. It isn' ; t anti-Semitism. It' ; s anti-policies." ; " ; No, it' ; s just anti-Semitism. They don' ; t--you know, at--BDS is just anti-Semit--" ; and they don' ; t--they don' ; t get it. Don' ; t get it. So, if you talk about this, you' ; re liable to be labeled an anti-Semite. It' ; s sad. FERNHEIMER: And--and that' ; s in both communities. SOLOMON: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Both at the temple and the synagogue, you-- SOLOMON: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: In your estimation? SOLOMON: Yeah. Very few people take a long view of this and have any criticism whatsoever for Israel. And, uh--but that bothers me. But it, uh--nothing I can do about it. I--I--I wrote an article about, uh--well, that' ; s another story. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: No, it--last bit. You wrote an article for Shalom or-- SOLOMON: Yeah, I wrote an article about the greatest threat to--see, I think one of the great threats to Israel is not--not Iran, not Hamas, not Hezbollah. I think it' ; s the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community in Israel, because they' ; re very fundamentalist, and they' ; re growing at a rate that within--by 2070, they' ; ll be the majority if the--if nothing changes. And when they become the majority, I think there' ; s a possibility they' ; re going to pass draconian laws that say you--you must not do this, you must not do that. You must eat kosher, you must--if you--if you drive on Saturday, you go to jail. I mean, no--no telling what they' ; re going to do. And when they have those kinds of laws, people are going to leave. They' ; re not going to live under those conditions. And so I wrote this article, it said, uh, " ; Dateline 2070, today Israel died. (laughs) She put up a good fight. She worked hard, made a lot of great inventions, allowed a place for all Jews to come from all over the world. But in the end, Judaism killed her." ; FERNHEIMER: Hmm. (laughter) And when was that? When did you publish (??)-- SOLOMON: Well, I submitted it to Shalom and they rejected it. They wouldn' ; t publish it, so-- FERNHEIMER: Do you still have the article? SOLOMON: I resubmitted it and changed a few things. Instead of saying that the Ultra-Orthodox will pass these laws, I put in there, you know, basically they--they might pass these laws and we' ; ll see. And they might--they might publish it under those circumstances. But we' ; ll see. We' ; ll--we' ; ll see. But, you know, it--it' ; s--if you criticize Israel in any way, it' ; s dangerous. People don' ; t want to hear that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: You know? Israel' ; s my baby. Don' ; t talk--my--that bad about my baby. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: My--part of my family, you know? I don' ; t know--want anybody talk badly about my daughter. FERNHEIMER: Right. SOLOMON: And no matter what she does, I' ; m going to stand by my daughter. If she happens to get in trouble, I' ; m going to stand by my daughter, you know? And that' ; s the way people are about Israel. I don' ; t care what she does, what she does, how she does it, whatever, I' ; m going to stand by her and support her. And I--sometimes I think that that' ; s not a friend. I think that' ; s a--I think a friend tries to help somebody do the right thing, and not always just say, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah, you' ; re doing the right thing." ; I--I think that' ; s dangerous. I mean, if I' ; d--if I told my daughter everything she did was wonderful and never told her, you know, " ; You shouldn' ; t do that," ; I wouldn' ; t be doing her any favors. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SOLOMON: And I think the same thing about Israel. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SOLOMON: But, uh, most people don' ; t--don' ; t agree. FERNHEIMER: Well, I thank you for sharing that today. SOLOMON: Yeah, sure. FERNHEIMER: And for sharing your afternoon with me, as well. SOLOMON: Oh, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And allowing me-- SOLOMON: Well, thank you for having me. I-- FERNHEIMER: And I hope that if we have some follow-up questions, you might be willing to either come back or talk to another person-- SOLOMON: --okay-- FERNHEIMER: --uh, about your time here at UK. But thank you so much, Marty. SOLOMON: You' ; re-- FERNHEIMER: I really appreciate it. SOLOMON: You' ; re welcome. Welcome. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh317_jk005_solomon_ohm.xml 2015oh317_jk005_solomon_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh317_jk005_solomon_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marty Solomon, August 17, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Marty Solomon speaks about his early life growing up on the south side of Chicago, and how he and his family came to live in the state of Kentucky. His parents worked in the bourbon industry and he grew up working in a distillery where they produced Old Blair Bourbon. Solomon describes his later youth in Louisville and his membership with Pi Tau Pi, a chapter of AZA in the 1940s. Solomon briefly talks about some of the Jewish-owned stores in downtown Lexington from the early 1950s.
Solomon describes his life as an undergraduate brother of the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity, including descriptions of the house, events he participated in, fraternity customs, and the dynamics of chapter meetings. This includes an anecdote about pledging. Solomon talks about his training to be a pilot in the Air Force. He talks about racism in Illinois in the 1950s and how the military helped its Black officers. He then discusses some of the campus climate at the University of Kentucky regarding racism and anti-Semitism. Solomon talks about the time he spent teaching undergraduate statistics and how he became involved with computer science in the early years of the computer.
Solomon compares Jewish life in Salt Lake City, Utah with Jewish life in Lexington, Kentucky. He also compares Jewish life in the conservative temple in Lexington with the reform temple in Lexington. He also describes his current Jewish life in Lexington, and his early Jewish life with his parents. He concludes by discussing his personal positions on a variety of Jewish issues such as spirituality, the Israel/Palestinian conflict, and some reflections on his family's Jewish upbringing.
Identifier
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2015oh317_jk005
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jewish families.
Jews--Identity.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
Religion
Worship (Judaism)
African Americans--Social conditions.
United States--Race relations.
University of Kentucky
United States. Army Air Forces
United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps
Greek letter societies.
College students--Social conditions
Bourbon whiskey
Whiskey industry
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/6c9854babe7b97aa4b1053f6f213ac1d.jpg
5c6de1d9a7580766c3cbb05e57ed0f04
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Harriet Rose
Interview Keyword
Jewish leadership
Lexington (Ky.)--Social life and customs
Dating (Social customs)
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
University of Kentucky
College students--Social conditions
Integration
Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations.
Racism
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh316_jk004 Interview with Harriet Rose, August 13, 2015 2015oh316_jk004 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Kentucky--Social conditions Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. African Americans--Segregation Civil rights movements--United States Jews--Identity. Religion Worship (Judaism) Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Jewish leadership Lexington (Ky.)--Social life and customs Dating (Social customs) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 University of Kentucky College students--Social conditions Integration Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations. Racism Harriet Rose Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|1(1)|8(13)|23(8)|39(10)|64(1)|86(3)|139(9)|168(1)|188(12)|212(3)|215(9)|251(4)|281(6)|296(1)|329(4)|343(1)|356(7)|385(6)|401(8)|422(4)|435(8)|459(2)|488(6)|500(12)|529(12)|564(5)|571(15)|596(1)|620(3)|651(8)|672(7)|690(11)|713(5)|745(9)|763(7)|797(11)|835(9)|861(10)|876(6)|899(10)|916(7)|925(8)|945(3)|962(3)|995(9)|1023(5)|1033(8)|1076(12)|1088(15)|1129(6)|1146(7)|1171(6)|1198(9)|1234(10)|1262(5)|1279(2)|1313(3)|1331(17)|1351(4)|1363(11)|1387(11)|1410(6)|1425(13)|1455(9)|1489(6)|1521(5)|1551(4)|1569(13)|1597(13)|1610(3)|1629(18)|1650(5)|1658(1)|1670(1)|1699(8)|1722(13)|1738(7)|1770(13)|1829(7)|1846(11)|1871(4)|1895(5)|1924(6)|1948(5)|1986(3)|1999(11)|2029(8)|2038(1)|2056(7)|2079(5)|2087(6)|2095(3)|2124(3)|2146(10)|2170(1)|2194(9)|2202(7)|2214(6)|2246(3)|2263(3)|2274(7)|2309(1)|2332(1)|2349(11)|2363(10)|2379(3)|2392(2)|2397(6)|2409(6)|2414(10)|2429(5) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253335955" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 0 Family background The studio is relatively new. Harriet Rose discusses her family and her ancestry. Harriet's parents are Isadore Abraham and Hilda Rosenthal. Her siblings are Vivian Abraham Marx Shreburg and Irvin J. Abraham. Harriet Rose grew up living in Lexington, although her family lived in several different places such as Shelbyville and St. Louis, before settling in Lexington. Abraham ; Adath Israel ; Harriet Grace Abraham ; Hilda Rosenthal ; Irvin J. Abraham ; Isadore Abraham ; Jacob Abraham ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; National Conference of Jewish Women ; Services ; Shelbyville (Ky.) ; Sunday School ; Temple ; Teresa Roman ; Vivian Abraham Marx Shreburg Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 38.2120144, -85.22356660000003 17 Shelbyville, Kentucky http://www.ashland.fcps.net/about-our-school The website for Ashland elementary school, where Harriet Rose went to school. 916 Judaism in childhood And what about--can you tell me about, a little bit, um, the role of Jewish tradition in your childhood? Rose discusses her Jewish traditions and identity growing up. She went to Sunday school every Sunday growing up and was eventually confirmed at her temple, Adath Israel. Adath Israel ; Al Roman ; Confirmation ; David Moore ; David Wheel ; Edith Wheel ; Jewish ; Kerry Rosenthal ; Rabbi Milton Grafman ; Reform ; Sunday school ; Temple ; Traditions ; Vivian Wheel Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky. 1386 First experience of anti-Semitism I don't know how much you want to know, but my friends were mostly Gentile, because all my schoolmates were. None of the three girls that were my Sunday schoolmates were in the same class with me. High school was the first time that Rose realized that she was different because of her religion when she wasn't invited to certain clubs because she was Jewish. Anti-semitism ; Different ; Henry Clay High School ; Jewish ; Rabbi Milton Grafman Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky http://www.henryclay.fcps.net/ The website for Henry Clay High School, where Rose attended. 1548 College life And was there other--um, was that the first of other experiences to come, or was-- Rose did not think that she would go away for school, but she was awarded a scholarship to Brenau College. She attended there for a year before transferring to the University of Kentucky as a music major. She discusses her college life at UK and how she spent her free time. Brenau College ; Dating ; Kentucky Classification Battery ; Music ; Radio Brenau University ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; University of Kentucky 34.304, -83.819 17 Brenau University https://www.brenau.edu/ The current website for Brenau University, where Rose attended college for one year. 1988 Jewish social life in college Uh, but back to when you were an undergraduate as a student--or a student as an undergraduate... Rose socialized mainly with students involved in Hillel, and they would often have dances with the Jewish students at Transylvania University. Adath Israel ; Dances ; Fraternity ; Hillel ; Jewish students ; Murray Rago ; Social ; Synagogue ; Temple ; Transylvania University College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; University of Kentucky 38.052177, -84.49368349999997 17 Transylvania University http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7k3j390v3c/data/0259/0259.pdf Yearbook picture of the University of Kentucky Hillel in 1938 2160 Debate team And I know you talked a little bit about a debating society in-- The University of Kentucky's Hillel had a debating society that would take place at the temple. The UK debate team had a competition with the debate team at the University of Michigan. Larry Sherman was one of the men who participated in UK's Hillel debate team. Sherman and Rose were named the outstanding boy and outstanding girl in Hillel in 1941. Adath Israel ; Debate society ; Debates ; Debating team ; Fannie Miller ; Hillel ; Larry Sherman ; Sherman Miller ; Temple College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; University of Kentucky ; University of Michigan 42.27623749999999, -83.74131030000001 17 The University of Michigan 2364 Meeting her husband So the debate took place at the Temple? Rose met her husband, Stan Rosenberg, in Dayton, Ohio and they were married 11 weeks later. Cleveland (Ohio) ; Dating ; Dayton (Ohio) ; Debates ; Debating society ; Hershel Lowenthal ; Irving Ziger ; Married ; Michigan ; Stan Rosenberg Marriage 39.7589478, -84.19160690000001 17 Dayton, Ohio, where Harriet met her husband. 2714 Sororities Um, were, were there other organizations you were involved with or did Hillel take up all of our time? At Brenau College in Georgia, Rose was invited and then uninvited to join a sorority because she was Jewish. Alpha Gamma Delta ; Brenau College ; Fraternity ; Jewish ; Sorority Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Brenau University ; College students--Attitudes. ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; Discrimination. ; Greek letter societies. 34.303076, -83.818871 17 Address of Brenau College, where Harriet attempted to join a sorority but faced anti-semitism. 2854 Dating And we were, uh--I was still pretty. I dated a lot. Rose dated Jewish and non-Jewish boys often, but asked her mother for permission to date a Jewish boy from the other congregation in Lexington. She discusses what they would do and eat on dates. Dances ; Dating ; Gentiles ; Hillel ; Jewish ; Marvin Rabin ; Maysville (Ky.) ; Non-Jewish ; Orthodox Judaism ; Romance ; Social ; Transylvania University ; Wing's Tea House Dating (Social customs) ; Interfaith dating ; Lexington (Ky.)--Social life and customs 43.0730517, -89.40123019999999 17 Madison, Wisconsin. The city where a friend who Harriet Rose once dated, Marvin Rabin, lived when they reconnected. https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/obituaries/2013/12/13/marvin-rabin-conductor-founded-youth-orchestras-dies/xMMm8I2vGWVQP5jCBpmtpN/story.html Marvin Rabin's obituary. 3217 Jewish identity How did the Temple reach of to the Hillel students? Rose says that her Jewish identity was not impacted by her time at UK, but at the Temple. Rose and her husband were very active in their Temple, Adath Israel. Rose taught Sunday school at the Temple from the time she was 15 years old. Adath Israel ; Gentiles ; Jewish identity ; Rabbi Milton Grafman ; Sunday school ; Temple Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0356548, -84.48284509999996 17 Temple Adath Israel in Lexington, Kentucky. http://www.lextai.org/ The website for the temple Adath Israel 3439 Feelings of family within the Jewish community Okay, um, what would you say--what advice, I guess, would you give to Jewish students who are enrolled at UK today? When Rose was younger, if somebody was Jewish, they were just like a member of the family to her, no matter what. Community ; Family ; Jewish Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky http://ccarnet.org/ Website for the Central Conference of American Rabbis 3530 Rabbi Grafman So you've talked a little bit about your relationship--or the fact that Rabbi Grafman was the rabbi during this very formative period for you. Rose admires and is very fond of Rabbi Milton Grafman. He discussed the Nazism in Germany before anybody else did. Grafman was involved, along with other clergymen in Birmingham, Alabama, with writing a letter to Martin Luther King, Jr. while King was in jail. Birmingham (Ala.) ; Central Conference of American Rabbis ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Germany ; Milton Grafman ; Nazism ; Rabbis Civil rights movements--United States ; Jewish leadership ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 33.5206608, -86.80248999999998 17 Birmingham, Alabama. http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/09a/mlk_day/statement.html A copy of a letter written by 8 Alabama clergymen, including Rabbi Grafman, to Martin Luther King Jr. while he was in prison. 3720 Race relations Um, did he talk very much about his attitudes about race relations or segregation while he was rabbi? Rose discusses her and her husband's role in race relations in Lexington. Stan Rosenberg brought the Urban League to Lexington and won the brotherhood award from the National Conference of Christians and Jews. Rose and her husband hosted Lexington's first integrated dinner party. Charlie Schwartz ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Ed Gilson ; Harry Sykes ; Idle Hour Country Club ; Nathan Kazis ; National Conference of Christians and Jews ; Party ; Rabbi Milton Grafman ; Stan Rosenberg ; Urban League African Americans--Segregation ; Discrimination. ; Integration ; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations. ; Race relations--United States ; Racism 38.027655, -84.46627999999998 17 Address of the Idle Hour Country Club http://nul.iamempowered.com/affiliate/urban-league-lexington-fayette-county The Urban League's website for the Lexington chapter. 5371 Temple leadership Um, we've touched a little bit on a couple of these closing questions that I have... Rose discusses Temple leadership throughout the years. Adath Israel ; Central Kentucky Jewish Association ; Federation ; Harold Baker ; Temple Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington 17 http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt76q52f8201_40 Yearbook page from when Harriet Rose was the director of Counseling and Testing at UK. 5566 Zionism When did Federation come to Lexington? Rose discusses Zionism's role in the split of the Jewish congregations in Lexington, as well as Zionism in general. American Council for Judaism ; Hadassah ; Temple Adath Israel ; Zionist Religion ; Zionism. 17 http://www.hadassah.org/ Homepage of the Hadassah organization 5941 Differences in the Lexington Jewish congregations Um, so I guess you started to talk a little bit about the situation in--contemporary situation. Rose discusses the differences between the Temple and the Synagogue, the two Jewish congregations of Lexington. Congregations ; Conservative ; Reform Judaism ; Synagogue ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.lextai.org/about-us/our-history History of Temple Adath Israel in Lexington, Kentucky, and its leadership. 6211 Judaism now How would you say your Jewishness is different from that of your parents? Rose discuss her Jewish beliefs and how her Judaism differs from that of her parents. Intellectual ; Israel ; Jewish identity ; Jewishness Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 Oral History Harriet Rose discusses her family and her ancestry. She grew up living in Lexington, and discusses her Jewish traditions and identity growing up. She went to Sunday school every Sunday growing up and was eventually confirmed at her temple, Adath Israel. High school was the first time that Rose realized that she was different because of her religion when she wasn't invited to certain clubs because she was Jewish. She discusses her college life at both Brenau College and the University of Kentucky, including her participation on the debate team, dating, and her experiences with discrimination in sororities. Rose discusses her and her husband's role in race relations in Lexington. Stan Rosenberg brought the Urban League to Lexington and won the brotherhood award from the National Conference of Christians and Jews. Rose and her husband hosted Lexington's first integrated dinner party. Rose says that her Jewish identity was not impacted by her time at UK, but at the Temple. Rose and her husband were very active in their Temple, Adath Israel. Rose taught Sunday school at the Temple from the time she was 15 years old. Rose discusses the differences between the Temple and the Synagogue, the two Jewish congregations of Lexington. (off-topic conversation ; not transcribed) [01:37] FERNHEIMER: Hello. Today is August 13th, 2015. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I am Director of Jewish Studies here at the University of Kentucky, and it is my great honor and pleasure to interview Ms. Harriet Rose, um, as part of the JHFE Jewish Kentucky Oral History Collection. Um, and I' ; m going to preface the beginning of my questions by saying that I know that Ms. Rose was interviewed earlier, in the ' ; 80s, and, in fact, her c-- her interview lives in the online portion of the Louie B. Nunn collection of Jewish Lexington Community, or Lexington Jewish Community. I should' ; ve checked that. Um, And so some of these questions maybe cover some of the same ground, but I' ; m gonna ask them and move kind of quickly past them, um, so that we can go a little bit deeper into some other aspects. Um, can you state your name, uh, at birth, and when and where you were born? ROSE: My name at birth was Harriet Grace Abraham. I was born in Shelbyville, Kentucky, September 13th, 1920. FERNHEIMER: And what were your parents' ; names and occupations? ROSE: Isadore and Hilda--Isadore Abraham and Hilda Rosenthal. Her occupation was having me. My father was, at that time, a, a rapid calculator on the tobacco market. FERNHEIMER: A rapid calculator. What does that mean? ROSE: Well, he-- Well, that was before people had calculators, and he was a--he followed the auctioneers around and, in his head, figured out what the farmers were going to get for the tobacco. And he was very, very bright, and could multiply the numbers on freight trains as they went by. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: Gave me an awful complex. I thought only men could do that. Found out later that wasn' ; t true. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And did your parents, um, and/or grandparents change their name-- I guess when--how did your--let' ; s start one more question back: how, how did they come to live in Shelbyville? ROSE: My grandmother was born in, uh, St. Louis. My grandfather was born in Germany, and came to this country-- I' ; m sorry, I don' ; t have the dates in my head, but i-in the 1800s. Why he went to St. Louis, nobody' ; s quite sure. But at any rate, her-- FERNHEIMER: --and what was his name? ROSE: Hmm? FERNHEIMER: Your grandfather' ; s? ROSE: Oh, Jacob Abraham. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Her name was Teresa Roman. Uh, she had brothers who didn' ; t quite approve of her dating a greenhorn. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And he got tired of having his brothers-in-law tell him what to do, so he moved to Louisville. Why, I' ; m not sure, but he had trained as a butcher in Germany, and he found that there was no slaughterhouse or butcher shop in Shelbyville. So he, his wife, and his first two children moved to, uh, Shelbyville, whereupon he had ten more children. FERNHEIMER: So he had a total of twelve children? ROSE: Yes. But that-- FERNHEIMER: --do you know all-- ROSE: --his, his father in Germany had fifteen. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. And do you know all their names? ROSE: I know everything about them. I' ; m, I' ; m in the process of writing a book. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wonderful. ROSE: And my helper on the book got into all kinds of genealogy, which really wasn' ; t my intention--(laughs)--but I know a lot about, about my family. FERNHEIMER: Wow. D-d-do you know the names off the top of your head, or do you have to look in your book? ROSE: Oh, I know the names. FERNHEIMER: Could you sh-- would you share them with us? ROSE: Uh-- Uh-- Itzka- Itz--- FERNHEIMER: Itzhak? ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Abraham. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And her name was Rosa. FERNHEIMER: Uh, Abraham' ; s wife, or--? ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: And that was my great-grandfather and grandmother. And my--you want to know all those fifteen children? (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I' ; m curious, yeah. ROSE: Well, there was-- I wish I' ; d brought the book with me. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. If you don' ; t--if you don' ; t remember off the top of your head, we can do follow-up. That' ; s okay, too. ROSE: Oh, good. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- ROSE: Um-- FERNHEIMER: But I am curious. And they were all in Louisville? Or they were-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --they were in Shelbyville? ROSE: They, they were--they were all in Germany. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: And--but most of them came to this country. They did not come to Kentucky, however. FERNHEIMER: They-- ROSE: --one uncle did, Oscar. FERNHEIMER: Oscar, and his last name was Abraham? ROSE: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Ha-- Hancha, and they lived in Harrisburg, and they had three children. All of them are dead. FERNHEIMER: And they must--and they came in the--what year? ROSE: In the 1860s. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Wow. So your family' ; s been in Kentucky for quite some time. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Do you have siblings? And if so, what are their names and ages relative to you? ROSE: I had a sister. Her name was Vivian Abraham Marx Shreburg. (laughs) She' ; s dead. My brother has just moved from Louisville to Florida. His name is Irvin J. Abraham. He married a lovely girl named Joanne, and they had two children. My sister had two children, two sons. I had two sons. None of us followed the family--(laughs)--example with multiple children. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And-- Wow. (laughs) Yeah, from twelve to two, it' ; s a big difference. (both laugh) Um, and so you grew up here, in Kentucky. ROSE: Yes. I' ; m--we moved to Lexington when I was four. FERNHEIMER: Uh, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood, and growing up here? Where did you go to school--? ROSE: All right. I lived first on Aurora Avenue -- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --and then on 101 Victory-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --and then at 196 North Ashland, across the street from Ashland School-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --and that was my elementary school and my kindergarten. And the temple, Adath Israel, was right up the street. So my earliest memory is going to Sunday school. FERNHEIMER: When did you start going to Sunday school? ROSE: I think I was probably five. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And did your family go--did they have Friday night services then, or Sat-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: It was an--it was a really reform temple. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: And did your family go on Friday nights, or--? ROSE: My father couldn' ; t be bothered much. His father said to him, " ; As soon as you can, you join the temple." ; My grandfather went to Louisville, uh, to temple in Louisville, but he also had services in Shelbyville for the--a few of the Jewish families. My grandmother had two sisters who moved to Shelbyville: um, Mary Sanders and N-Nettie Gorman. Nettie Sanders had three or four children, and, and two of, um, the Gormans-- I, I' ; m doing this badly. Nettie Gorman, Mary Sanders, and Teresa Roman were sisters. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And Teresa was your grandmother, right? ROSE: Yes. And her mother came to live with them, with my grandmother. FERNHEIMER: So their mother, all three of their mother, came to live with your grandmother, Teresa. ROSE: Right. FERNHEIMER: And their m-- okay. In Shelbyville. ROSE: N-- yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Mary died. Nettie and her family went back to St. Louis. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And Teresa stayed with your grandfather in St.-- ROSE: --yes, for-- FERNHEIMER: --s-- and so-- ROSE: --all those years. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: --they had all come from St. Louis to Shelbyville, but you don' ; t know why. ROSE: Oh, I--Grandma came because Grandpa came. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Right. ROSE: And, and they stayed there until Grandpa died, and there was a--we have a headline from the, from the Shelbyville paper after Grandpa died, and my uncle Adolf and my aunt Rosaline Gertrude and my grandmother moved to Lexington. It was called " ; The Passing of the House of Abraham." ; FERNHEIMER: Ah. I, I' ; ve heard of this story, and I don' ; t know if it was from your earlier interview, or through another interview that-- ROSE: --I didn' ; t--some of it I didn' ; t even know when I was interviewed before. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Um, so it sounds like--okay, so once you got from Shelbyville to Lexington you got settled very close to where the synagogue lives--or the temple. ROSE: The temple. FERNHEIMER: Uh, here--I know here the distinction-- ROSE: --you know the difference? FERNHEIMER: I know the difference. There' ; s a big difference, and I' ; m not confused. ROSE: Okay. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um, but, uh, the temple, uh, is where you all lived very close, and-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --so you started going to Sunday school from a pretty young age. Does your family go to services? Can you tell me a little bit about your family' ; s relationship to Judaism as you were a child? ROSE: My mother was, uh, very involved. My father was not very involved. His favorite statement about going to temple was, " ; I just hate all, all those gettin' ; ups and gettin' ; downs." ; (both laugh) But we belonged because that was our identification. And also, my father' ; s brother, Morris, and his wife, Gertrude, already lived here, and so did Betty and Barney Miller, my father' ; s sister. So it was just appropriate for us to join the temple. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. So you had both--you had family already involved at the temple. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And were there other families who were not blood related that your family did holidays or other things with, or--? ROSE: The temple was very small at that point, and the Jewish holidays we all celebrated together. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: I thought they were all kin to me. FERNHEIMER: Oh. (laughs) ROSE: I was-- FERNHEIMER: --did they have celebrations at the temple itself, or--? ROSE: Well, uh, we had a Seder at the temple. In fact, I didn' ; t know what a home seder was until I got married and moved--went to Cleveland, and after that we had a home seder. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. ROSE: When I came back here. FERNHEIMER: When you say your mom was really involved with the temple, what did that mean? ROSE: Well, women made the temple run, the sisterhood. She was president of the sisterhood. She was president of the National Conference of Jewish Women-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --Council, Council of Jewish Women. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And we spent-- I remember rolling matzo balls in the kitchen where mother was, and Mrs. Fire, and her maid. Everybody did the same things. We had a congregational dinner once a year, and mother was very often chairman. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Of the dinner? ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And what about--can you tell me about, a little bit, the role of Jewish traditions in your childhood? W-were they all temple-related, or were there family traditions? ROSE: Oh, the family had many traditions, but, as I said, they were Reform Jews, and aggressively Reform, I think. My grandmother was a second generation in America, and-- This is complicated, but my grandmother' ; s brother married my mother' ; s-- My mother came from a family called Rosenthal. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: There were six or seven children in that family. Kerry Rosenthal married Al Roman, so they w-- we--we are double cousins with some of them. Um, mother was a niece to Aunt Kerry and Al Roman, so she knew the Abrahams-- FERNHEIMER: --bef-- bef-- ROSE: --well, before they were Mama and Papa they were Aunt Teresa and Uncle Jake to her. My father met my mother when he went to his sister' ; s funeral. She married somebody in St. Louis, and, and during the war, the First World War, she died of the flu. She was pregnant. And so when he in--went to St. Louis, he, he met the prettiest wom-- girl he' ; d ever seen, he said, my mother, and they were married two years after that. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And so after--they married in St. Louis, and-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --and then they moved to Shelbyville. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And then they moved to Lexington. ROSE: And Frankfort was in there s-- for a while. FERNHEIMER: In between? ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, what did your parents teach you about Judaism? ROSE: I don' ; t know. I was confirm-- I went to Sunday school every Sunday. Everybody did that we knew. Uh, if some--if a, a child didn' ; t come to Sunday school, he was either sick or his parents went out of town. It was just what we did on Sunday morning. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And we were confirmed. Um, I was confirmed with three other girls. In the temple there are the pictures of all our confirmation classes. Have you seen them? FERNHEIMER: I have seen. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s pretty remarkable, actually. ROSE: Well, I, I, I thought that was just the way it went, and it was. Uh, Louisville was just like that with the Reform Jews. What my f-- family taught me about Judaism? Everything I knew, I guess, but it was all temple-related. It was--I knew the holidays. We observed the holidays, the whole--the Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Nobody ever fasted. My mother was confirmed in St. Louis in, in a Reform temple. There were only two intermarriages in the--all those twelve Abraham children. One was to an Orthodox woman--(both laugh)--and the other was to a Baptist. And, and so it didn' ; t make any difference, except my cousin Leonard was a son of the Orthodox woman, and he was instructed when he had bacon at my grandfather' ; s house to tell his other grandfather it was corn beef. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) That' ; s pretty awesome. ROSE: Nobody kept kosher. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, any--is there any one particular, particularly vivid memory from your childhood that you' ; d like to share? ROSE: I' ; ve many vivid memories. Uh, do you have any, any--do you have Vivian Wheel on your list of--to be interviewed? FERNHEIMER: Uh, not yet. Tell me about Vivian. ROSE: Well, Vivian' ; s family was Orthodox, but she married David Wheel-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --who was--whose grandmother played cards with my grandmother five nights a week. And-- FERNHEIMER: --what kind of cards did they play? ROSE: I guess it was gin--it was rummy, but it wasn' ; t gin at that point. They didn' ; t know that. And I don' ; t know what else. But David Moore, his brother, would bring Mammy Isaacs to my grandmother' ; s house, and they played cards. And, and their mother, Edith Wheel, was my Sunday school teacher. She was the principal of the Sunday school. Her husband had died during the war, and she and her mother and two sons lived here, and she was from Louisville, so she really made the Jewishness in the Sunday school. FERNHEIMER: Ah, so she, she was kind of the force behind it. ROSE: Yes, she was definitely the force behind the Sunday school that I grew up in. In fact, she drew maps of the Fertile Crescent, and, and when--the first time I went to Israel, I wrote a postcard saying, " ; I' ; m walking on what you told me about all those years." ; She was frequently my Sunday school teacher, because there were volunteers who taught, and wherever there was a vacancy she taught. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: How many students were in your Sunday school class? You said you were confirmed with three-- ROSE: --three, four-- FERNHEIMER: --three other women, so were you-- ROSE: --um-hm, no boys. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: And we knew who-- FERNHEIMER: --and who were the women? Just so we know. Uh-- ROSE: Uh, well, they' ; re all dead. Um, Helen Ades --I think she' ; s dead--Miriam Blum, and Judy Wheel. FERNHEIMER: So she--Judy Wheel was the daughter of Edith Wheel? No. ROSE: No, there was a different fa-- they were related, but it wasn' ; t-- FERNHEIMER: --the same family. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, so four--so you and three other women all the way, all those years. ROSE: We were girls. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: We didn' ; t get to be women till we were grown up. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: That' ; s pretty amazing. Um, well, if there' ; s not one particular thing, sit on it, and maybe something will come. ROSE: Oh, confirmation. Uh, the temple got--well, I adored our rabbi, Milton Grafman. He came the year before I was confirmed, I think. FERNHEIMER: And that would' ; ve been what year? ROSE: I was twelve. Thirty-two. FERNHEIMER: Okay. So he came in 1932. ROSE: Yeah. I don' ; t know how much you want to know, but my friends were mostly Gentile, because all my schoolmates were. None of the three girls that were my Sunday schoolmates were in the same class with me. I skipped a lot, and I looked a little older, and when Rabbi Grafman came and apportioned us to classes, he didn' ; t know what to do with me, and the older girls didn' ; t want me in that class, so he put me in the class where I was the same age but not the same grade. And I went--I, when I went to high school-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --at Henry Clay, I found out I was different, because all my people I had been associated with, the Gentiles, went into clubs, and I wasn' ; t invited. FERNHEIMER: Was it that you weren' ; t invited, or were you not allowed? There' ; s a slight difference. ROSE: Well, they didn' ; t invite me. I, I suppose I wasn' ; t allowed, but it was the first time I found out I was different-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --from them. FERNHEIMER: What-- ROSE: --I was pretty, and I was smart, and I was one of them up to that point. And that was a great shock. It was the first time being Jewish meant anything disagreeable. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And the rabbi was a tremendous help, and-- FERNHEIMER: --Rabbi Grafman. ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And where did he come from? He was here for a short while, and then he moved to Alabama, right? ROSE: Well, it was--it felt like a long time. He was here from, from ' ; 32 to ' ; 41, ' ; 42, maybe. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: And for us, to have a rabbi that stayed that long was remarkable. FERNHEIMER: Was it unusual? ROSE: Yes, it was. Most--we' ; re so close to Hebrew Union College-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --that we usually got a graduate, um, who stayed a year or so. FERNHEIMER: And then moved on to-- ROSE: --uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: --somewhere else. Hmm. ROSE: He was the first of our long-time rabbis. FERNHEIMER: And what did he do to help you--? It sounds like--would it be fair to characterize your treatment in high school as your first experience with anti-Semitism? ROSE: Yeah, I think so. That was my first experience. FERNHEIMER: And was there other--was that the first of other experiences to come, or was-- ROSE: --oh we duplicated it when we got to college. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: I went to--I-- I--there was no possibility of my going away to school, except that I scored the highest score on the Kentucky Classification Battery, which was given to all the high school seniors in Kentucky. And I hadn' ; t hit a lick, really, in school, and my teachers were very surprised, and I was very surprised, too. And I was a singer, and I won--I got a superior in the state contest. So Brenau College in Gainesville, Georgia was converting from a conservatory to a college, and they came and offered me a scholarship. And my father said we couldn' ; t afford it, and then they ra-- they raised the ante, and I went away to school my first--my, my freshman year. FERNHEIMER: So you went to the conservatory in, in Georgia for the first year? ROSE: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: And did you finish there? ROSE: Oh, no. One year was enough. Well, really, my tea-- my voice teacher let me know at the end of that year she was not returning. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: So I was going back, but then it was so simple, I just walked down Euclid Avenue, and then went to the old alumni gym, and arranged a student to come to the university as a transfer student that day. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Wow. And what year was that? When did you start at the University of Kentucky? ROSE: Well, I graduated high school in ' ; 37. I went away in, uh, the fall of ' ; 38. FERNHEIMER: And can you tell me a little bit about your experiences in university at the University of Kentucky? What were your major studies, and what were-- ROSE: --I was a music major, because you didn' ; t-- Well, obviously I was, and you didn' ; t have to take math--(laughter)--and that was great. FERNHEIMER: And, uh, and what, what were the main activities that you occupied yourself with while in college, aside from your studies? Um-- ROSE: --boys. FERNHEIMER: Boys. Uh, Jewish boys? Non-Jewish boys? All boys? ROSE: All, all kind of boys. And I was in the radio. I t-- I told you at the top of McVey Hall-- FERNHEIMER: --uh-huh. ROSE: --was WBKY, only it wasn' ; t that name then. And I worked there. That was-- FERNHEIMER: What did you do? ROSE: Well, I was a director of voice music. And I got programs together. And loved it. FERNHEIMER: So were the programs for the radio show? Did they go--? ROSE: The radio, yes. We, we broadcast. FERNHEIMER: And what, what kind of programs did you bring, or did you like to bring? ROSE: I did, I did one called, uh, Songs of Our Fathers. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. ROSE: It was music, not only Jewish, but, uh, Christian, too. FERNHEIMER: How did the campus react to hearing these Jewish songs? ROSE: They never listened. FERNHEIMER: Oh. (laughs) ROSE: But some rabbi somewhere did, and he wrote saying it was a wonderful program. " ; If you' ; re gonna do anything like it, let me know," ; ' ; cause he just happened on to it accidentally. FERNHEIMER: W-- do you remember where he was from, or where--? ROSE: No, I really don' ; t, and I don' ; t know his name. I just thought it was lovely. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. How long did you do that, the radio programs? ROSE: I worked there, uh, for th-the three years I was in college. FERNHEIMER: So you graduated in 1941? Okay. ROSE: Right. FERNHEIMER: And you studied music. K-- where did you live? Did you live at home, or did you live on campus? ROSE: I lived at home. I was a town girl. We lived, at that point, at 432 Hollywood Drive. FERNHEIMER: And can you describe a typical day in your life as a college student? What did you do? Where did you go? What did you eat? Study? Who did you socialize with? How did you relax? ROSE: I--well, I walked to school, ' ; cause it was down, just down Euclid Avenue. Sometimes I had a date for breakfast. FERNHEIMER: Where would you go to eat? ROSE: Oh, uh, we didn' ; t go to eat. We just had a date. (both laugh) As a matter of fact, it was--the music and art and drama departments were in a building, a little frame building, which burned later, and they--then they moved to Singletary. But, um, I associated with the people in the music department. The--we all took the same courses. FERNHEIMER: So there was a strong cohort. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And did you eat mostly with your family at home, or were there--were there cafeterias on campus? Tell me what campus was like. It' ; s hard to imagine. Uh, it looks different every day right now. ROSE: Well, it looked the same for a long time. (laughter) You know where Alumni Gym is? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Or was. ROSE: Was. May--it may not be now. It was right around there. We took classes. Oh, and, and some of-- I-- The Taylor Education Building-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --were some of our classes, and, uh, eh, wherever arts and sciences were taught. Uh, Miller Hall, I know I had languages there. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: I took French and German, both. Later German. I, I graduated in ' ; 41. I came back in ' ; 60, and got my master' ; s and PhD. FERNHEIMER: Wow. In what field? ROSE: Counseling psychology. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. And then you went on to direct the counseling center here-- ROSE: And testing center, um-hm. FERNHEIMER: From when to when did you do that? So three degrees from UK. ROSE: Yeah. I' ; m-- (laughs) I was an undergraduate, graduate student, a faculty member, and an administrator-- FERNHEIMER: --wow, so a long-- ROSE: --I knew the whole place. FERNHEIMER: You knew it inside and out. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Um, but back to when you were an undergraduate as a student, uh, or a student as an undergraduate, um, I know--you' ; ve mentioned in your earlier interview that you were involved with Hillel, and-- ROSE: --well, Hillel--the temple made a real effort with Jewish students. We went to temple Friday nights. We had dances after temple, and-- FERNHEIMER: --this was for the University of Kentucky college students? ROSE: Yes, and Transylvania. FERNHEIMER: And Transylvania. So you guys came together to socialize at the temple. ROSE: Yes. We didn' ; t--the, the synagogue people, and we did not socialize much. FERNHEIMER: So Hillel was mostly a Reform Jewish affair? Affair isn' ; t the right word. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Uh, organization at that time? ROSE: I don' ; t know why it was, but Hillel was here. There were students-- We paid no attention to who belonged. There were all those boys, and we were girls. And we attracted them. And-- FERNHEIMER: --this is at the dances, or in general? ROSE: At the dances, and, and, and they came to temple, and they were invited to, uh, Seders and things like that. FERNHEIMER: How many students would you say participated in Hillel at that time? Or how many Jewish students do you remember on campus at that time? ROSE: Damn few. Maybe twenty. FERNHEIMER: Twenty. And, uh, do you remember their names, the ones who came regularly to the dances? How many were at Transylvania, or does the twenty include those at Transylvania, as well? ROSE: That included them. It was not a Jewish college. It was not a place-- It didn' ; t matter. There was one Jewish professor. FERNHEIMER: Who was that? ROSE: Murray Rago. He was the head of Back To Reality. His mother--his wife and my mother were best friends. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And where did he come from? ROSE: East somewhere. FERNHEIMER: So there were twenty students involved with Hillel. Were these the same students who were involved with the Jewish fraternity at the time? ROSE: Yes. There were, that' ; s all there were. FERNHEIMER: So there--was there a distinction between ZBT and Hillel? ROSE: ZBT didn' ; t exist. It was something--it was called something else. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And it--I think-- FERNHEIMER: --that' ; s right. ROSE: --for-- it was formed maybe the year I graduated. FERNHEIMER: And there was a Jewish sorority at one point in time, as well. Was that after you were already gone-- ROSE: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --from UK as a student? Okay. And I know you talked a little bit about a debating society-- ROSE: --well, there was a-- FERNHEIMER: --in your last interview. ROSE: --there was a debating team. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell--? This was a specifically Hillel debating team. Tell me about that. I' ; m fascinated. ROSE: Are you really? FERNHEIMER: Really. ROSE: I don' ; t know anything about it, except they were pretty good, but they were all boys. FERNHEIMER: All boys. ROSE: Yeah. And--well, girls didn' ; t do things like that. FERNHEIMER: They didn' ; t do debate. ROSE: No, not-- FERNHEIMER: --not at that time. ROSE: --at that time. The reason I talked about that was the University of Michigan sent their Hillel debating time here to bi-- to debate ours. And-- FERNHEIMER: --so it was a big enough thing that there were actual intercollegial debating matches. ROSE: Right. And one of the guys--uh, I went to that, ' ; cause I--we went to everything that was Jewish in any way. FERNHEIMER: Who were the students who did the debating from the UK Hillel? Do you remember? ROSE: Larry Sherman, I' ; m sure, was one of them. He and I won--were named the outstanding boy and outstanding girl in Hillel, uh, se-- senior year in college. FERNHEIMER: So in ' ; 41? ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And what did that mean, outstanding boy and girl? ROSE: How do I know? (laughter) FERNHEIMER: Who d-- who made the decision? ROSE: I don' ; t know! FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: Might' ; ve been Fannie and Sher-- and Sherman Miller. They may have been-- They probably had something to do with it. FERNHEIMER: F-Fannie and, and Sherman? ROSE: And Sherman Miller. Um, they had three children. (laughs) Joe Miller, who was a lawyer, and died recent-- fairly recently, and, um, Faith, who died-- Sammy, who is a girl, was lately president of, of the temple. Oh, Fannie Miller was a professor of education, and a very good teacher. And, um, she was very much involved with the youth of the temple. But she came--you know, she wasn' ; t much older than I was, so-- FERNHEIMER: So was she kind of like the staff organizer, or--? I' ; m trying to think about the models I know from Hillel now. ROSE: I wouldn' ; t worry with it, ' ; cause I don' ; t think they were those models. It was a place for socializing, and, obviously, debate, because it was a team. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And so Larry, Larry Sherman was one of the debaters? Uh, do you recall? ROSE: I' ; m sure he was. FERNHEIMER: Any other names that you can recall? Do you know what s-- what did they debate? What--? ROSE: I haven' ; t any idea. (laughter) I was this--I was a girl, a music major, social. FERNHEIMER: And so you went just to observe-- ROSE: --because I-- FERNHEIMER: --or to support? ROSE: --because that was a thing you did. If there was a pro-- a Jewish program at temple, you went. FERNHEIMER: So the debate took place at the temple? ROSE: Yes, it was at the temple. I had a date with somebody else named Harold, uh, Lowenthal. What was his name? (laughs) Hershel, Hershel Lowenthal. One of the boys on the debate team from Michigan wanted--he asked me out that night. I was really pretty. I didn' ; t know it, but I was. And I said, " ; Well, I have a date. May-- maybe you could go with us." ; And Hershel said no, he couldn' ; t go with us. (both laugh) So he went back to the hotel and wrote me a letter, and we corresponded. He-- FERNHEIMER: --this is the gentleman from Michigan. ROSE: Irving Ziger. FERNHEIMER: Irving Ziger? ROSE: Uh-huh. This is a long story. (laughs) And he in Michig-- I was a senior, he was a senior. We were out of school. Senior week was still to be in Michigan. He wrote me and asked me to come. And my mother talked--he talked to my mother, and, and I went to Michigan for senior week, had a lovely time. We wrote for years. Then I went to Mason County, Maysville, to teach music. FERNHEIMER: After you graduated. ROSE: And I stayed there a year and a half. They were paying me almost nothing. And I was dating men on the tobacco market, and mother didn' ; t like that, so-- And my sister, who wasn' ; t--who hadn' ; t gotten a degree, went to work in the war for Air Service Command in Dayton, and she was making more money than I was--(laughs)--and my mother didn' ; t like whom I was dating. And anyway, so I took the civil serv-- servi-- service exam, and I ace exams, always, so I got a job making more than Vivian was in, in Dayton, Ohio. We went to the Jewish community center the first night I was in Dayton. She was--had been there. I met some guys, and I had three dates as a result of that night. (laughter) And one of them was from Cleveland. And I said, " ; Oh, did you know Irv Ziger? ' ; Cause I met him in this way." ; And he went out with Stanley Rosen-- his name was Rosenberg at that time--and said, " ; There' ; s a cute new Jewish girl in town, and, and she knows Irv Ziger," ; who was Stan' ; s friend. I assumed-- Oh, he called me to go out. I assumed-- FERNHEIMER: --the boy you met? Do you remember his name? ROSE: Oh, no. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: He didn' ; t--he didn' ; t matter. (both laugh) He was--you d-- probably don' ; t know, but in those days you dated everybody who asked you until you got a ring on your finger. That was your major goal in life, to get married. What else could you do? You could teach school or you could get married? So-- FERNHEIMER: --you could probably have babies. That was also probably an option, but only after you got married, generally. ROSE: I--mostly it was afterwards. (laughs) Um, I told--I wrote to Irv--I was still corresponding with him, and saying I was going to Dayton to work for Service Command. He wrote back and said, " ; You' ; ll probably meet Stan Rosenberg. He' ; s one of Cleveland' ; s best." ; When Stan called me, I assumed Irv had written to him, too. He hadn' ; t. He just got this recommendation of a cute new Jewish girl in town. Well, eleven weeks later we got married. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: He was a, a nice boy from a Reform family, and he had good table manners, which lots of people didn' ; t, and it was a war. FERNHEIMER: So he--but he has no connection to the debating society, other than that you met the other guy-- ROSE: --through him. FERNHEIMER: --uh, uh, Zigert, uh-- ROSE: --Ziger. FERNHEIMER: --Ziger, Ziger, Irv Ziger-- ROSE: --um-hm. FERNHEIMER: --was the debater from the University of Michigan. Okay, now I can understand-- ROSE: --um-hm. FERNHEIMER: --how the debating society was a pretty important thing. ROSE: It really wasn' ; t, but it w-- it worked out nicely in my life. FERNHEIMER: Wow. And so you don' ; t remember the topics or anyone else, other than Larry Sherman, who debated. Were they d-- just--do you know if they debated other Hillel debating teams because they--? Were they allowed, or did they debate other non-Jewish groups? ROSE: I presume they did. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: The debate was a pretty big thing on the UK campus at that time. FERNHEIMER: Were there many societies who participated in debate at that time? Or was it f-- in the fraternities or sororities? Just--? ROSE: In the fraternity I never knew what they did. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. This is very interesting. I will--I' ; m going to do some research and follow up on this. (laughs) Um, can you tell me, uh, I guess-- ROSE: --Larry Sherman' ; s son is in town still, Harold. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And he plays music. ROSE: Yes. Larry did, too. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, were, were there other organizations you were involved with, or did Hillel take up all of your time? ROSE: There were even honoraries in music who didn' ; t invite me. In fact, my Gentile friends said, " ; If, if you' ; re not inviting Harriet, we' ; re not joining." ; FERNHEIMER: So, different from your experience from high school. ROSE: Yes. Well, I didn' ; t tell you about my first year of college. FERNHEIMER: No. Tell me. ROSE: At Brenau College there were only six Jewish girls, and none of them-- FERNHEIMER: --this was in Georgia. ROSE: --came from my kind of Jews. FERNHEIMER: So they weren' ; t Reform. They were-- ROSE: --no. I was rushed by several sororities. I assumed everybody knew I was Jewish. My name was Abraham. And there was a girl I' ; d graduated from high school with there. Uh, I loved Alpha Gamma Delta, and they loved me, and they invited me to join. FERNHEIMER: This is-- ROSE: --and the next day they uninvited me, because you had to say you believed in Jesus Christ as your savior, and I wouldn' ; t say that. So I was in a--I was welcome with them, and they really sincerely did make me welcome at everything except sorority functions. But nobody. Well, in high school I didn' ; t--nobody was still my friend. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: They were still my friends, but I' ; d had this experience over and over. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And-- FERNHEIMER: And that sorority experience, that was at UK or that was in Georgia? ROSE: U-- no, that was in Georgia. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: At UK, I never went near sororities. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And couldn' ; t have if I' ; d wanted to. That was pre-title anything. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And we were, uh-- I was still pretty. I dated a lot. FERNHEIMER: Jewish? Non-Jewish? Did it matter? ROSE: Both. FERNHEIMER: D-- was that a distinction you made when it--when you were dating? Did it ma-- ROSE: --no, and my p-- my parents didn' ; t, either. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: In fact-- FERNHEIMER: --so the tobacco men that your mom didn' ; t like in Maysville, it was that they did tobacco, th-- not that they were not Jewish. ROSE: It, it was just as--they were without their wives, and-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --and, uh, things happened. Um, there was a graduate student who was Jewish, and we had a romance. But as I said, you dated everybody who asked you. There was no such thing as going steady in those times. In fact, he went--he got to be very famous. He was a musician, and he was awarded something big three or four years ago. And I looked him up on Google and called him up. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What' ; s his name? ROSE: His name was Marvin Rabin. And I thought he was coming through the telephone, he was so glad to hear from me. And we were, at that point, ninety and ninety-three. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: He said, " ; Well, I' ; ve got to see you." ; I said, " ; You must be kidding. I don' ; t travel anymore." ; He said, " ; Well, I' ; m coming to Lexington," ; and he did. FERNHEIMER: Where was--where did he live? Where did he travel from? ROSE: Uh, Madison. FERNHEIMER: Wisconsin? ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: Yeah. He had his son bring him down here. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And that was just three years ago? Four years ago. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Three years? ROSE: Yeah, he died last year. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I' ; m sorry to hear that. But-- ROSE: It was lovely. FERNHEIMER: To see him. And so he was here during that time, as well. He was at UK. ROSE: Yes, and with Depression, dating meant maybe you went to, uh, Wing' ; s Tea House. FERNHEIMER: Where was that? ROSE: It was downtown. It was the only Chinese restaurant. It had terrible food, but we didn' ; t know it. We thought it was great. And it was the grandfather of the Wing now that has a restaurant. He fed lots of boys from the east who, who were broke, at that time, and he even allowed them to take their dates there, have dinner, and Marvin was one of those. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. Wing' ; s? Wing' ; s? How is it spelled? W-i-n-g? ROSE: Uh-huh. Wing' ; s Tea House. FERNHEIMER: And where' ; s the restaurant now that the grandson owns? ROSE: I' ; m not sure where it is. It was on the, on, uh, the beltline for a long time, but down--it was--it was on the second floor of a building at the corner of Main Street and Upper-- FERNHEIMER: --uh-huh. ROSE: --South, when I was allowed to go there. But you said did it matter whether they were Jewish or not. When a Jewish boy from the synagogue invited me to go to the movies-- FERNHEIMER: --the synagogue, not the temple. ROSE: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --I said, " ; I' ; ll have to ask my mother." ; And my mother asked my Aunt Betty, because the family was--every, every--they were nosy to every degree. And then Betty said, " ; Oh, Hilda, you don' ; t want her to get mixed up with those kids." ; FERNHEIMER: And was it because they were more rel-- ROSE: --Orthodox. FERNHEIMER: More religious. ROSE: You do know that there was a time after Reform Jews came here and got established when the Jews from Eastern Europe began to come that never the twain met. FERNHEIMER: Right. And that was true here in Lexington, as well. ROSE: Oh, boy. It was very true. FERNHEIMER: So the only time you asked your mother for permission about dating was about a boy in the synagogue, as opposed to someone who wasn' ; t Jewish-- ROSE: --he was the first boy who ever invited--well, no, a Gentile boy that had taken me to the movies before that. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Oh. But that wasn' ; t an issue. That wasn' ; t something you needed to ask your mom-- ROSE: --he came--we went on the bus down to-- Well, he--it didn' ; t make any difference that he wasn' ; t, wasn' ; t Jewish. We were children. FERNHEIMER: How old were you when you had your-- ROSE: --well, I was fourteen when this conversation with Aunt Betty took place. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: And probably I was ten or twelve. The movie that I went to with the Gentile boy on the bus-- FERNHEIMER: --yes. ROSE: --was Dracula. For years I spent--I was under the seat most of the time, ' ; cause it was so scary, and for years I slept with a blanket over my throat. I should never have gone to that movie. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Uh, um-- So did you continue to go to the movies on your dates in college? Was that also part of it, that--? ROSE: That' ; s probably all we did, uh, and then we went to dances. FERNHEIMER: Dances. And so-- ROSE: --uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: --you talked a little bit about the dances. The dances were organized by Hillel? Organized by the temple, but they took-- ROSE: --organized by the temple. Somebody played the piano and we danced. FERNHEIMER: And it was mostly the kids from the university who would go-- ROSE: --and Transy. FERNHEIMER: --and Transy, who would go over. And so-- ROSE: --and the-- FERNHEIMER: --how did the temple reach out to the Hillel students? Did they ha-- was-- ROSE: --uh, we probably had a rabbi who, who, uh, who got some of his salary, maybe, from Hillel. FERNHEIMER: So he was part of this national-- ROSE: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --organization. Do you remember who the rabbi was then? No. ROSE: I know who the--all the rabbis were, but which--well, that was still-- FERNHEIMER: --which one-- ROSE: --Grafman. FERNHEIMER: It was still Grafman. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Okay. So, um-- Wow. I guess how would you--this is kind of a big question, but how would you say your time at UK--and you have quite a bit of time at UK, uh, in different capacities--impacted your Jewish identity? ROSE: It didn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Not at all. ROSE: No. I--my Jewish identity was established at the temple. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: That was-- My husband and I were very active in the temple. I taught Sunday school from the time I was fifteen. FERNHEIMER: Wow. ROSE: I sang in the choir all the time, until I left here. And I belonged. I still am an ardent temple member, not goer. I, I go to things that interest me now. But one of my earliest memories was my mother was program chairman for sisterhood. We four little girls were dressed in boyel, and doing a, a dance called the Four Seasons. I was spring. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: Who were the other girls? Who-- ROSE: The ones in my Sunday school class. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. Wow. So temple really was the big forma-- forma-- formative experience. ROSE: Yes, it was, and it--it was our Jewish identity. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: It-- Everybody-- Our parents had some Jewish friends, but not, not first-class Gentiles. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What does that mean? ROSE: Not the horsey set, or-- FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: Although my friends had been the children of the horsey set. When I got to high school they weren' ; t anymore. FERNHEIMER: They weren' ; t the--the--well, they weren' ; t your friends, or they--? ROSE: They weren' ; t my friends. FERNHEIMER: I see. So up until high school it was-- ROSE: --when--then you-- FERNHEIMER: --there was-- ROSE: --when we began to be nubile, uh, class took over, religious class. We were probably-- We certainly were not rich, but even the rich Jews' ; children were s-- they were street friendships, not, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --like acquaintances. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. So you talked a little bit about anti-Semitism in high school. Did you have any of those experiences at UK, as well? ROSE: Really not. FERNHEIMER: Um, so it sounds like the temple took you off campus when you were at UK. How would you describe Jewish life in Lexington at that time? ROSE: As far as I was concerned, it was lovely. I dated everybody. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, what would you say-- What advice, I guess, would you give to Jewish students who are enrolled at UK today? ROSE: Well, quite different a-advice. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. ROSE: And I wouldn' ; t have to give it to them. I mean, there, there is a Jewish society here now. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Um-- ROSE: --I thought when I was young, uh, if they were Jewish, they were okay. I didn' ; t-- How can I say this? They didn' ; t have to be smart or mannerly or anything. They were just like a member of the family. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And do you feel differently now? ROSE: Yes, I' ; m very selective. (both laugh) Of course I am. FERNHEIMER: And-- ROSE: --as a--as a matter of fact, all my friends, my real friends, are Jewish, but my scars from those early days didn' ; t begin to go away until graduate school, I guess. FERNHEIMER: Really? ROSE: I always let people know quickly that I was Jewish, ' ; cause I didn' ; t want to be hurt by anything they said. FERNHEIMER: Mm. So you' ; ve talked a little bit about your relationship, or the fact that Rabbi Grafman was the rabbi during this very formative period for you, um, and in your earlier interview you mentioned you were very fond of him, and actually you did-- ROSE: --oh, very. FERNHEIMER: --to-- today, as well. Could you tell me a little bit more about your relationship with him, and maybe provide a kind of character sketch of him? ROSE: Character sketch of him-- He was-- He, he didn' ; t allow himself to be dictated to by the powers that be at temple, although he left--when he left, he left because of money, and when he left in ' ; 42 there wasn' ; t any money, but he could--he went to Birmingham, and stayed for the rest of his life. Every--well, I can' ; t say everybody adored him, but those of us--uh, the kids adored him. And he and his lovely wife had good friends. They would' ; ve been between my f-- parents' ; generation and mine in age. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: He was, uh-- He talked about Nazism before anybody knew what was happening in Germany. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: In 1937, he was talking about it. FERNHEIMER: How did he know, or did he have family? ROSE: I don' ; t know. Maybe from union, the union, uh, or CCAR. You know what that is? FERNHEIMER: CCAR? ROSE: Central Conference of American Rabbis. FERNHEIMER: C-- Rabbis, okay, yes, I do know. ROSE: I don' ; t know how he knew, but, uh, he was-- W-we knew at the temple what was happening at the temple in Germany-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --because of him. Maybe for other reasons, too. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Were there--was there activism, uh, temple on behalf, or in support, or, um, is it just something that you kind of knew about, or--? ROSE: We knew about it. Uh, my father had a dairy, but--he was in the dairy business. And they--when the Germans could leave, he brought a German family here. He provided employment for, for them. FERNHEIMER: Was he the sponsor? I know the-- ROSE: --yes, he was the sponsor. FERNHEIMER: And what family? Do you remember who it was? No. Were they--they were Jewish, I assume? ROSE: Oh, yes. And there were a number of refugee families that came here. FERNHEIMER: Mm. Um, did he talk very much about his attitudes about race relations or segregation while he was rabbi? ROSE: At that point, I don' ; t think any, anything went on, went out about, uh-- I don' ; t think there was a problem about the blacks, the colored people. FERNHEIMER: In the ' ; 40s. ROSE: Then. My husband was very much involved in race relations. He brought, um, the Urban League to Lexington. He was one of the people who, who wanted things to be different. He also won the brotherhood award for the National Conference of Christians and Jews. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. In what year? This is-- ROSE: --well, it was the year before he died. Uh-- Eighty-four. FERNHEIMER: Eighty-four. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And that' ; s Stan, right? ROSE: Yeah. He was a very civic man. He did--all his do-gooding was public. Mine was private with students and faculty. FERNHEIMER: In, um, in a recent story in the Forward, um-- ROSE: --yes. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: --you talked a little bit about your experiences with your husband, and-- ROSE: --um-hm. FERNHEIMER: --uh, the story, for those who would want to look it up, is by Josh Nathan-Kazis, " ; Which Side Were We ON? Kentucky Slavery, Mine Wars, and Segre-- uh, Segregation." ; And he talked a little bit about a situation with an African American family, um-- ROSE: --that was our rabbi at that time, uh, Leffler. FERNHEIMER: Leffler. ROSE: And, uh, a professor at the university named Sedler. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. And in that article, Nathan Kazis talks about the way the issue divided the temple, um, and, of course, how your husband was--helped bring, uh, the Urban League chapter into the city. And he talked about a party that you hosted that was an integrated party. ROSE: Yep. FERNHEIMER: And I was wondering, could you share some details about that? He says--and he quotes you--" ; I served wine punch." ; (laughter) But he said it was the first integrated party that you attended. Were, were there-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --other integrated social functions in the city-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --at the time? And this was in-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --what year? Nineteen sixty-three? Four? ROSE: I don' ; t really remember the year. At this point, years get all mixed up in, in my life. (laughs) Um, Rabbi-- FERNHEIMER: --I understand ROSE: --Rabbi Leffler was here for quite a long time. FERNHEIMER: And he was the rabbi after Milton? ROSE: N-- oh, no, there have been FERNHEIMER: Or there' ; s, there' ; s several in between. ROSE: Several in between. But he stayed a long time. Longer than we really wanted him to stay. (both laugh) Um-- FERNHEIMER: --and why is that? Th-- why did he stay longer, and why is it that the congregation was ready for him--? Was it the congregation that was ready for him to go-- ROSE: --oh, yes. FERNHEIMER: --or--? Okay. ROSE: Oh, yes. ' ; Cause he wasn' ; t-- (laughs) He wa-- he was not a very good rabbi. I don' ; t really-- And I don' ; t remember really why. I just know he, he was a pain in the neck a lot of the time. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: Um-- How did we get to that? FERNHEIMER: We were talking about the-- ROSE: --oh. FERNHEIMER: --party that you hosted. ROSE: The party was-- FERNHEIMER: Who did you invite? H-how--? ROSE: It--the mem-- there were people who sponsored--who were board members of the Urban League. They, they brought ' ; em-- FERNHEIMER: And they were African American, or they were white? ROSE: Some were, were African American, but the ones who wouldn' ; t--mostly didn' ; t come. Their wives certainly didn' ; t. They, when they were organizing the Urban League to get here, they, they put people on the board, invited people on the board, who were l-- first-class Gentiles. (laughs) I always call them the horsey set. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: The, uh, civic leaders, so to speak. FERNHEIMER: So wealthy whites? ROSE: Some wealthy. I guess they were wealthy. At that point money seemed not very important. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: Um, they were--would belong to Idle Hour Country Club, some of them, or Lexington Country Club, where Jews weren' ; t, you know-- FERNHEIMER: Allowed. ROSE: Don' ; t you know that story? FERNHEIMER: Which story? ROSE: The story about how we had a country club, and they bought it out from under us? FERNHEIMER: No, I don' ; t. Tell me about that. ROSE: Okay. FERNHEIMER: There was a Jewish country club? ROSE: It wasn' ; t Jewish, but Lexington Country Club was the social club. Jews were not invited. Um, there--also, Catholics were not terribly welcome. And there was a, a ty-- a gambler from Florida who lived here with his wife who was Catholic. They turned her and him down for membership in Lexington Country Club, so he bought her a country club and called it Ashland Country Club. It was on the--you know where Idle Hour is now? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: That was Ashland. And many Jews belonged, including my family. And lots of us at that time lived in Fairway. All of us. Us white Jews--excuse that, that horrible thinking, but we--they, they belonged to c-- the country club and played golf there. FERNHEIMER: And who, who else belongs were--it' ; s not just Jews, but there were Catholics there? ROSE: Oh, lots, lots of people. Um-- FERNHEIMER: --but no one of color, no African Americ-- ROSE: --n-- well, nobody b--- Nobody of color belonged anywhere-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --at that point. Um, during the war, the-- FERNHEIMER: --the first one? ROSE: Two. FERNHEIMER: The second one. ROSE: I, uh--Lexington Country Club got in financial trouble. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. ROSE: And they admitted some what I call second-class Gentiles. After the war, they wanted to get rid of them, or they didn' ; t want to belong to them anymore. So the horsey set, first class Gentiles, bought--uh, the, the gambler had died. I can' ; t remember his name, but it' ; ll come to me. So they bought I-- uh, what was then Ashland Country Club, and simply didn' ; t renew the membership for the Jews and the--and some other people. There was a man, a builder, who said to my fath-- his name was Ed Gilson--he was dro-- his membership was dropped, as well as ours, and all the Jews. Um-- FERNHEIMER: --so there were quite a number of Jews who were members at Ashland. ROSE: Yes, lots. Um-- FERNHEIMER: --how many families, would you say? ROSE: Forty, fifty. FERNHEIMER: Families? Wow. ROSE: And Ed Gilson lived in Fairway. In fact, he had built most of Fairway. And he, he bought--he built a road from his house over to Ashland Club so he wouldn' ; t have to even go to Main Street. He could just walk through to play golf. He was dropped. He said to my father, " ; Izzy, where are us Jews and sons of bitches gonna play golf? I know why dropped you, ' ; cause you' ; re Jewish. I must just be a plain sonofabitch." ; FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Wow. And what year was that? Do you remember? ROSE: Um-- FERNHEIMER: After the war? ROSE: Yes, after the war. And Stan and I-- Were we here yet? It was-- We came back in ' ; 49, so it was in the early ' ; 50s. We weren' ; t members, but my father and mother were. We didn' ; t have any money. FERNHEIMER: And that, that was before Stan started his business, or when Stan started his business? ROSE: His business came later. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, so the party came later, then, too. ROSE: Yes, the party was in the ' ; 50s, some-- No, it was in the ' ; 60s, ' ; cause we were in our new house. FERNHEIMER: And where was your house? ROSE: Um, 712 Beechmont Road. It' ; s my son' ; s house now. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --and tell me about the party. ROSE: Stan came home from a meeting and said, " ; We' ; ve hired a, a, a director for the, uh, Urban League, and we--uh, some of us thought we should have a party to welcome him. And none of the--nobody volunteered. None of the whites volunteered. Would you do it?" ; And I said, " ; Of course." ; So we had a Sunday afternoon reception. My, my maid told me on the day of the party--she knew we were going to do it--that she--she said, " ; You don' ; t know that I' ; m, uh, a cousin t-to Harry Sykes' ; s wife, Gwendolyn." ; And I said no. Harry Sykes was a--the president of the Urban League. They' ; d asked Stan to be ; he said it should be a black man, a colored man, we said at those points. And so Harry Sykes would--who had been a pro basketball player, was the president of the Urban League. And I, of course, invited--I don' ; t know who was invited, ' ; cause Stan--they took care of who was invited, but certainly the--all the board members were, and their wives. None of the wives came. Some of the board members did. I--it was an integrated party. I had-- (laughs) And I said I served wine punch. FERNHEIMER: And what did--what did your other friends at temple think about you-- ROSE: --some of them came. They were involved in it. They n-- that was do-gooding, and it--and the temple was always--they were always do-gooders. They were rolling bandages during the war, and, and Stan and Charlie Schwartz, who was the--all those Yankees who came to join us were active in trying to find a--to integrate tow-- the town peacefully instead of the way other people were integrating, with great difficulty. FERNHEIMER: And what was the--how did they imagine that peaceful integration would take place? ROSE: Well, Stan went up and down Main Street to all the Jewish merchants, encouraging and--them to hire people on the floor who was col-- who were colored, not just janitors. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Was he successful? ROSE: And they did. Yeah. FERNHEIMER: They did. ROSE: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: And w-when did that happen, that they first started hiring--? ROSE: In the ' ; 60s, ' ; 50s and ' ; 60s. FERNHEIMER: So late ' ; 50s, early ' ; 60s. ROSE: Yeah, when-- FERNHEIMER: --before the national trend. ROSE: I don' ; t know when, when the national trend started, but we certainly knew that there were problems with integration. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: My son' ; s-- Rick was a senior in high school, maybe a junior when, uh, the schools were integrated. When would that have been? He was born in ' ; 45. FERNHEIMER: So early ' ; 60s? ROSE: He would, um-- Yeah, the early-- FERNHEIMER: --or late ' ; 50s? ROSE: --' ; 60s. FERNHEIMER: So-- ROSE: And it was a difficult time. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. ROSE: Our colored schools were not so bad, and when we--integration was very hard on people. Not many of the colored teachers went into--were integrated, and so the blacks students had all kinds of feelings, and the white students had all kinds of feelings. FERNHEIMER: So you said this--the, the teachers of color weren' ; t inc-- weren' ; t part of the integration? So-- ROSE: --some of them were, but not-- Black students did better with black teachers. The teachers said, " ; You behave or I' ; ll tell your mother," ; you know. And, and they didn' ; t have the discipline problems in the black schools that the blacks created in the white schools. FERNHEIMER: What, what do you mean they created? How, how did--? Tell me a little bit about that. ROSE: They, they-- I don' ; t think the black students res-- for the most part, respected the white teachers. They didn' ; t feel at home. They were miserable. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And there were many, many discipline problems, and white teachers who left. FERNHEIMER: And this was in Lexington. ROSE: In the early ' ; 60s. FERNHEIMER: In--so right about the same time that you were having this party-- ROSE: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --was when integration was taking place in the schools. ROSE: Yep. FERNHEIMER: And you, your--the friends that you had from temple came to the party. ROSE: Some of them. FERNHEIMER: So was there a difference in attitude towards social integration in terms of-- ROSE: --there wasn' ; t-- FERNHEIMER: --shop-keeping or education, or--? ROSE: There wasn' ; t any social integration. It just didn' ; t happen. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Um, I want to come back to Rabbi Grafman, if you' ; ll allow me, for a minute, ' ; cause he was--he came to be pretty famous in his own right after he left Lexington-- ROSE: --yes, he did. FERNHEIMER: --uh, because of the letter that the clergymen wrote to Martin Luther King. ROSE: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Um, did you keep in touch with him after he, uh, moved to Alabama? F: Um, can you hold on-- ROSE: --for a while. F: --one second? FERNHEIMER: Hang on one second. F: I need to-- I' ; m not sure how the card switch-- ROSE: --in fact-- FERNHEIMER: Hold on one second. We' ; re gonna switch cards. ROSE: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Sorry about that. F: I thought that it was supposed to go straight into-- FERNHEIMER: I thought so, too. ROSE: You' ; re going to edit this, aren' ; t you? FERNHEIMER: There' ; ll be a little bit of editing. ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: You' ; ll have a chance to look at it, as well. ROSE: I' ; m sorry--I' ; m--you know, I' ; m saying what I think, and-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah, and I' ; m glad. (both laugh) Uh, I' ; m really grateful for it, and it' ; s a difficult period of time to talk about, so it' ; s hard for me to ask questions, too, uh, especially since, you know, this is our first meeting out of the field. ROSE: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- ROSE: --well, that' ; s all right. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- F: Okay. ROSE: And I' ; m being as honest as I possibly can, remembering what I remember. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Are we good? F: Yeah. You--I switched the cards. For some reason it, it didn' ; t continue-- FERNHEIMER: --so do you think we lost some, or no? F: I' ; m not one hundred-- I was just looking at it, and then I looked up and it was blinking, so I don' ; t think we lost anything. FERNHEIMER: Okay. All right. ROSE: You asked if we kept in touch with Rabbi Grafman. Yes, in, in the beginning, especially. His wife developed tuberculosis, and he knew exactly whom to call to get her admitted to the Julius Marks Sanitarium here. So, uh--and then our temple was always involved in the union meetings, and at one in the temple here there' ; s a picture of our former rabbis altogether at, at one of the conventions. And when we had a--our hundredth anniversary-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --some of them--well, I remember from the seventy-fifth, he came in, he said, " ; I don' ; t know where the years went, but when I left--his parents was--Iz and Helen were decorating with flowers for the congregational dinner, and I came in and Iz and Helen are still decorating with flowers for, for the dinner we' ; re having." ; FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: It was, uh-- He loved us, and we loved him. Uh, he was part of us. Can I say that? FERNHEIMER: Was--yeah. Was he--what, what made him--I mean, there' ; s a ver-- a real warmth that-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --in the way that you talk about him, and-- ROSE: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --I' ; m, I' ; m trying to get at some of the tangibles that, that helped to create that kind of warmth. ROSE: Well, he established the youth choir, and he was very lucky, ' ; cause there were some good voices. And, and we got such praise, and we were-- FERNHEIMER: --did you perform publicly, outside of the temple? ROSE: Oh, no. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: But we did the high holy days. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And it was a great part of our warmth of feeling, of belonging. He was wonderful with the youth, with-- And he had very good friends with a y-young marriage at that point. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: He was just a very warm guy. And very ethical. Somebody for us to look up to. FERNHEIMER: So when he--when he signed the letter to Doc-- Dr. Marth-- Martin Luther King, would you say that the kinds of attitudes that he and the other clergy people expressed were shared by a lot of the members of the temple at the time? ROSE: Not a lot. FERNHEIMER: Not a lot. ROSE: They were shared, but if you read what I said in that, uh, foreword-- FERNHEIMER: --I did, I did. ROSE: --it depended on what kind of threat they were fee-- feeling. And Stan felt no threat from--in his business. FERNHEIMER: Right. It was a very powerful quote, actually, about-- ROSE: --whose ox was being gored. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And-- ROSE: --um-hm. FERNHEIMER: --and about the, the way that Stan' ; s work with the junk business wasn' ; t--it didn' ; t--it wasn' ; t impacted by segregation in the same way that someone who was a property owner, who earned their livelihood-- ROSE: --right. FERNHEIMER: --that, that stood out-- ROSE: --uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: to me from that article. Uh, and so would you say that--I, I, I don' ; t want to put words in your mouth. Describe a little bit more that kind of s-- the, the ways that you perceived segregation impacting the Jewish community. ROSE: I don' ; t think it impacted it much. I don' ; t think-- I don' ; t think-- Well, many things were impacting the Jewish community at that time. Uh, the malls were coming, so that what, what had been an up and down Main Street Jewish affair, many businesses went out there or left, went out there or left. Bernie Miller' ; s is the only one still downtown. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --Rosenberg' ; s, also. ROSE: Oh. FERNHEIMER: Right? The jeweler? ROSE: Oh. Well, yeah, one of ' ; em. There were two Rosenberg families. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I have heard that story. Right, one Rosenberg is still there. Uh, so, okay, so the malls were impacting, uh, Jewish businesses? ROSE: Yes, and great changes were occurring. People were not really very worried about the blacks-- FERNHEIMER: --and-- ROSE: --except where they made a fuss. FERNHEIMER: Who made a fuss? Who' ; s the " ; they" ; there? ROSE: Uh, the blacks, the organizations that took up. FERNHEIMER: And by " ; fuss" ; you mean--? What kind of fuss were they making? ROSE: Well, Stan was making a fuss. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, it sounds like Stan was successful in his fuss, if you' ; re saying-- ROSE: --oh, he was. FERNHEIMER: --they, they actually began to hire people of color in-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --salespeople-- ROSE: --a few. FERNHEIMER: --positions. ROSE: A few. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember the stores that were the first to hire? ROSE: Meyers was one. But Alec, who had been the janitor and the, the helper with parties was put on the floor to sell. FERNHEIMER: And did he--did--Alec is a man? And did he do well? ROSE: I have no idea. (laughs) God. After--when I got my PhD, I invited some of the people from the university, and some of, of our close friends to a party, and Alec was there serving. And one of the girls in the graduate program really made a pass at Alec, who was a little drunk, and-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --and one of our friends took him home, because that wasn' ; t gonna do. W-- we weren' ; t saying-- Lexington was not ready for interracial dating. FERNHEIMER: That was in what year? In the s-- in-- ROSE: --I got my PhD in ' ; 64. FERNHEIMER: So in the middle of the ' ; 60s. So that, that wasn' ; t--it wasn' ; t ready at that time-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --in your opinion. And-- ROSE: --in my opinion, and in everybody' ; s opinion. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So--but at that--by that point it was more common to have-- Were, were there other people of color at the party, or only Alec, who was serving? ROSE: I don' ; t think there was anybody except Alec. FERNHEIMER: And this party was before or after the Urban League party that you hosted? ROSE: Much before. FERNHEIMER: Much before. Okay. So the Urban League party was maybe the later ' ; 60s. ROSE: If you, if you' ; re going to talk about integrated parties, the way they were integrated is the servants were black. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Do you think that hosting that integrated party impacted your relationships with other people in your social network? No? ROSE: We were always strange. (both laugh) You know, I went back to school when women didn' ; t go back to school. I-- The day I got invited to go into the doctoral program--as I said, I test marvelous, and the big--I didn' ; t realize it at the time, but they were trying to establish a, a program in counseling psychology. And I thought I was so lucky they invited me t-to not get a master' ; s, to go on and get my PhD. I now know--I was grateful then--I was the first PhD in counseling psychology, and they wanted that program to succeed, and they weren' ; t being charitable to me. I--they saw me-- They used me, in a sense. I--this I, I' ; ve just come to know. Writing my autobiography has done a great deal for me. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: I imagine. When did you start writing your autobiography? ROSE: About four years ago. FERNHEIMER: And how close are you to finishing? ROSE: I' ; m ready for it to be finished. Uh, the person who is to--whom I have hired to put it together has had various things happen in her life, and actually I looked at our contract, and I signed it two years ago, and she' ; s had a knee operation, and-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, wow. ROSE: --a house that was sold, and one that-- bought, and, and various things to distract her, and right now we' ; re in a distraction period, so I don' ; t know when it' ; s coming out, if it' ; s going to. FERNHEIMER: I imagine working on that has helped you reflect back on some things. ROSE: Oh, loads. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- ROSE: --if I-- I really should' ; ve brushed up on, on, on dates and things before I came, but--except I didn' ; t know what we were gonna talk about. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Well, if you' ; ll allow us to, to revisit with you, then I imagine we can come back and get some of those dates, as well. ROSE: All right. FERNHEIMER: Um, we' ; ve touched a little bit on a couple of these closing questions that I have, um, about kind of your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual. I asked a version of that thinking about your childhood, but I guess I' ; m more curious about kind of, in retrospect, your, your most vivid memory of Jewish life. ROSE: Well, our temple was, uh, was led by a, a series of men, always--almost always men until recently, who made a commitment to be on the board first, then to be, uh, chosen to be treasurer, secretary, first vice president--no, second vice president, first president, and then president. They made a commitment for twelve years of their lives. We were their handmaidens. FERNHEIMER: The women. ROSE: The wives. And, and we went to--we did everything together. Our social life was combined-- Well, they-- I, I--this comes out so badly, but socially we belonged to each other, and we were the people who took the responsibility of managing the temple. We didn' ; t have, uh, an administrator. When you were the treasurer you did the work, and when you were the secretary you did the work, or your wife did. And so it was more than the temple itself ; it was our lives w-- were that twelve years, uh, or fourteen years of togetherness. FERNHEIMER: And so you socialized mainly with the other people who were in-- ROSE: --people who were in, involved in the same-- FERNHEIMER: --positions of-- ROSE: --interests, um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Those leadership positions. ROSE: And when-- Harold Baker was one of those, and when talk--people talked about when the federation came here-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --he said--and he was wise--" ; I don' ; t want them, because there, there are not enough leaders." ; And our leaders had always come from within. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And, and there wasn' ; t enough leadership to choose from. FERNHEIMER: When did federation come to Lexington? ROSE: Well-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m trying to remember, as well. It had two different names. There was Central Kentucky-- ROSE: --Central Kentucky, yeah. And that was a, an attempt to establish an integration between the synagogue and the temple, and, and that wasn' ; t ever going to work then. So the Central Kentucky Jewish Association came. And it--a lot of it had to do with Zionism. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: It-- FERNHEIMER: --tell me about that. ROSE: Nobody has told you about that? (laughs) FERNHEIMER: About Zionism? In connection to the split between the temple and the synagogue? ROSE: The--well, the-- FERNHEIMER: No, actually, that' ; s a genuine question in terms of--I, I-- Tell me about the role that Zionism played in that split. ROSE: It was not-- It, it didn' ; t play any role in the split, but it play, played a great role in the attempt to get together, uh, to work together. Hada-- when Hadassah came, that was part of it. FERNHEIMER: And when did, when did--do you recall when Hadassah came? I' ; ll-- ROSE: --in the ' ; 40s, ' ; 30s. FERNHEIMER: And they--and, and Zionism was part of the mission. ROSE: Uh, well, Hadassah is a Zionist organization. FERNHEIMER: Yes. ROSE: And there wasn' ; t any move to Zionism before that. FERNHEIMER: So they brought the ideas about Zionism with them. ROSE: And where did they come from? Some other place. Yankees. FERNHEIMER: So, I mean, within the Reform movement, Zionism was a dividing factor itself. ROSE: And I don' ; t know how things ran at the synagogue. I really don' ; t. But I know that the integration of the temple, the management of the temple, was a--women were integral in many ways. They didn' ; t have the offices, but they ran the place. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: And sisterhood was very important. FERNHEIMER: And were many members of the sisterhood also members of Hadassah, or was that-- ROSE: --some of them were. I can' ; t quote-- FERNHEIMER: Well, i-it' ; s interesting that you bring that up, because that' ; s roughly around the same time, right? The late ' ; 60s, with race relations, and integration in the city, and that' ; s also around the time of the ' ; 67 war, and, and that had a big impact-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --uh, on a national level. I don' ; t know what-- ROSE: --well, it--the war had a big im-- impact everywhere. FERNHEIMER: Zionism, all right. That' ; s, uh, another question we--if I' ; m lucky enough to have a second opportunity, we' ; ll, we' ; ll talk more about that, uh, unless there' ; s--is there anything else you want to add about that right now? ROSE: Well, I was a member of the American Council for Ju-- Judaism, which was formed as an--in opposition to the state of Israel, because it, its principle was that American Jews were going to have to pay, not money, but the positions of American Jews was going to be a-- badly affected. And if there was ever anything that was demonstra-- demonstrating that, it is the situation now, right now, with the war, whether we will have that peace treaty with Iran, and what' ; s going on in our Congress, and whether our Con-- Senators, with large rep-- with large Jewish representation, rep-- representing large Jewish voters, large numbers, who are considering whether they should vote in favor of that treaty, and, and the Netanyahu and his opinions-- FERNHEIMER: --you' ; re speaking of the treaty with Iran. ROSE: --yes--what--and I' ; m speaking of its being exactly what formed the opposition to the state of Israel. FERNHEIMER: So y-- and, and Zionism came into this conversation now as we were talking a bit about the split, and so would you characterize one of the congregations as more or less Zionist, or--? ROSE: Well, the synagogue and--was certainly more Zionist, but there were, uh, temple members who were very large in the Zionist movement, not in-- FERNHEIMER: --how was-- ROSE: --not in APAC, but, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And was that divisive within the temple? ROSE: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. ROSE: We didn' ; t care. Nobody cared much what, uh, what you thought. Evelyn Thompson said to me, " ; You' ; re either with or us against us." ; FERNHEIMER: And where would--where did she stand? ROSE: Oh, she was an ardent Zionist. FERNHEIMER: Non-Zionist. ROSE: Uh-huh, a Hadassah lady. I never joined Hadassah. FERNHEIMER: Wait, she was a non-Zionist Hadassah lady? ROSE: Oh, no. She was a, an ardent Zionist. FERNHEIMER: Okay, that' ; s-- I wanted to make sure that I understood that correctly. Um, so I guess you started to talk a little bit about the situation in--contemporary situation. I wonder if you can talk about how you think things have changed in the Jewish community during the long period that you' ; ve been here. ROSE: Oh, it' ; s so different. So different. And part of it, I realize as I talk about it, uh, is that we were a Southern village-- FERNHEIMER: --Lexington. ROSE: --and after the war, people were--discovered us. FERNHEIMER: The second war? World War Two? ROSE: Yeah. The second war. And they came. And Jews from the East came. And they--many of them joined the temple because the temple had something to offer them, but in the process they changed the temple, too. FERNHEIMER: How so? ROSE: It was--well, it' ; s--it happened with Reform Judaism and conservative everywhere. It' ; s not exclusive in Lexington, but we thought it was as it was happening. Um, there really should just be one conservative synagogue now. There' ; s so much-- FERNHEIMER: --here in Lexington? ROSE: Yeah. There, uh-- They integrated so much that there are very few people who think the things I think. My temple is, is-- It still says it' ; s reform, but it' ; s not reform in, in--not classical reform. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: Nor, I think, is the shul what it was when everybody over there kept kosher, and everybody was--didn' ; t work on--walk on Shabbos and things like that. The, uh, the mores have changed. The rabbinate have changed. FERNHEIMER: And so it sounds very different. Uh, you' ; ve described a stark difference such that you had to ask your mother for permission to date someone-- ROSE: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --from the synagogue-- ROSE: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --and if I unders-- ROSE: --to, to go out to the movies in a car. He just happened to be from the synagogue. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Ah, okay. So it was, it was more the dating than the-- ROSE: --yes. FERNHEIMER: --the fact that he was from synagogue. ROSE: If--there wasn' ; t social integration much. FERNHEIMER: Between the two congregations. ROSE: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: But now I hear you saying--and correct me if I' ; m misunderstanding--that, that there' ; s not such a stark difference between-- ROSE: There isn' ; t. FERNHEIMER: And so that' ; s a big change. Um-- ROSE: --and-- FERNHEIMER: --anything--? ROSE: Even our prayer books. Course, I don' ; t know what goes on at the synagogue, but I know that our prayer books are, are different from what were the prayer books when I grew up. FERNHEIMER: How are they different? What do they--? ROSE: They-- They have taken the framework that was cla-- classical Judaism and pushed it over in the corner, and now it' ; s--the music is very different. The, uh, the creation of the Jewish camps-- FERNHEIMER: --summer camps? ROSE: --yeah, summer camps for young people, and guitar music, and songs that, that the, uh, union of American Hebrew congregations created, and I know why they did it, in, in self-preservation, and they have done it, and it' ; s the outgrowth of the camp movement to keep young people involved. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. ROSE: It' ; s all very different. FERNHEIMER: Mm. How would you say your Jewishness is different from that of your parents? Speaking of difference. ROSE: It' ; s much more--it' ; s more intellectual. FERNHEIMER: Hm. ROSE: And that' ; s what attracts me to Judaism: its intellectual qualities. My parents were Jewish because they were born Jewish, and, in their custom, their families were Jewish, and that was totally their-- They weren' ; t, weren' ; t educated into thought. My father had a sixth-grade education. My mother had an eighth-grade education. I was the first, second member of my family, of my--I' ; m the oldest grandchild. One uncle went to college before me. I was the first one to, in this generation, to get a master' ; s degree, uh, and I' ; m the only PhD-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. ROSE: --uh-- FERNHEIMER: If you have children, how does your relationship to Jewish identity and practice compare to theirs? ROSE: Well, both my sons married Gentiles, first. Um, the second--my second son' ; s second wife is Jewish, and she and I do fine. (both laugh) FERNHEIMER: How would you say living here in Kentucky has impacted the way that you think about your relationship with Judaism? ROSE: I think had I lived in the--in-- I think the Gentiles made me a better Jew. FERNHEIMER: What-- ROSE: --they, they established that I was something different from them, and so, having been that, I went aggressively into my kind of Judaism. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: And I wouldn' ; t be anything else, ever, now, or, or since, since I learned enough. FERNHEIMER: Is there anything else that I haven' ; t asked about that you' ; d like to share about Judaism, or being a Jew in Kentucky, or your experiences at UK? Anything that I missed that you' ; d like to get on the record? ROSE: No, I don' ; t think so. I like it. I like being a Jew. My kind of Jew. FERNHEIMER: Could you have been your kind of Jew outside of Kentucky? ROSE: Oh, I think so. It would' ; ve been more difficult. FERNHEIMER: Can you give me a brief des-- definition of your kind of Jew? ROSE: Well, first place, I' ; m not all wound up in, in, uh, in Israel. I think American Jews--Jews in America, the place of Jews in America, in the long run, politically, will suffer. Um--(coughs)--I like the influence we' ; ve had in most ways. Certainly I' ; m proud of the, uh, of the musici-- of the music contribution, and of the medical contribution, and, and-- Um, the fact that cr-- mostly we' ; re not in the criminal class. (coughs) I don' ; t know how to say all this. I like being a Southern Jew. I don' ; t want to be a Northern Jew. I don' ; t like Northern Jews. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What makes, what makes Southern Jews so special? And I guess, as part of that, Kentucky Jews? ROSE: What makes us so special? I think most of us were a credit to our people. Most of us. And, and a credit to Judaism. (coughs) Because we were so civilized. FERNHEIMER: And by " ; civilized," ; what do you mean? ROSE: Educated leaders in good causes. (coughs) Not looking down on, on the blacks, for instance, because I don' ; t think we did. There were--the others did, other people did, but we didn' ; t. (coughs) I-- I think--I used to think of Jews as all admirable people. I don' ; t think of anybody as honorable anymore. (laughs) I was prouder of Jews than I am now. And I don' ; t know if it' ; s because we have a twenty-four/seven press, and I know more about everybody than I used to know. I look at the, uh-- Jews, in my mind, were famous because of good things that they did, not on Wall Street. The more I come to know, we' ; re not different from other people, and Judaism has not made us different-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. ROSE: --which it should' ; ve done. And it' ; s in the honor, in, in what we study. I see more, uh, criminal activity. FERNHEIMER: Mm. ROSE: I don' ; t know what--if this m-makes any sense, and I don' ; t know if it' ; s just my age. FERNHEIMER: It sounds like the more, the more you--the more you know, the harder it is to love. (laughs) ROSE: Yes, it is. FERNHEIMER: Um-- Uh-- Um-- So that' ; s a real different place to end up than when, uh, asked you to talk about your kind of Jew. Uh, anything else that-- ROSE: --no. FERNHEIMER: --you' ; d like to add? Well, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to let me ask you so many questions today. (laughs) Um, I really appreciate it. ROSE: You were feeling honored by my presence. You probably aren' ; t at this point. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Oh, that' ; s not true. Uh, I' ; m honored to have had the opportunity to talk with you and learn so much, um, and I thank you. I think-- ROSE: Um-hm. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections and Digital Programs, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh316_jk004_rose_ohm.xml 2015oh316_jk004_rose_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Title
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Harriet Rose, August 13, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Harriet Rose discusses her family and her ancestry. She grew up living in Lexington, and discusses her Jewish traditions and identity growing up. She went to Sunday school every Sunday growing up and was eventually confirmed at her temple, Adath Israel. High school was the first time that Rose realized that she was different because of her religion when she wasn't invited to certain clubs because she was Jewish. She discusses her college life at both Brenau College and the University of Kentucky, including her participation on the debate team, dating, and her experiences with discrimination in sororities. Rose discusses her and her husband's role in race relations in Lexington. Stan Rosenberg brought the Urban League to Lexington and won the brotherhood award from the National Conference of Christians and Jews. Rose and her husband hosted Lexington's first integrated dinner party.
Rose says that her Jewish identity was not impacted by her time at UK, but at the Temple. Rose and her husband were very active in their Temple, Adath Israel. Rose taught Sunday school at the Temple from the time she was 15 years old. Rose discusses the differences between the Temple and the Synagogue, the two Jewish congregations of Lexington.
Identifier
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2015oh316_jk004
Subject
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Kentucky--Social conditions
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
African Americans--Segregation
Civil rights movements--United States
Jews--Identity.
Religion
Worship (Judaism)
Anti-Semitism
Antisemitism
Discrimination.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/c1fa007fa8a806c18a95d5cc8272e2e1.jpeg
ad8a16e19f4105e427362268889b9915
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sara Levy
Interview Keyword
Emigration and immigration.
Family histories.
Worship (Judaism)
College students--Religious life
Antisemitism
Anti-Semitism
Discrimination.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh315_jk003 Interview with Sara Levy, August 12, 2015 2015oh315_jk003 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Lexington (Ky.)--Social conditions Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Ownership Jewish families. University of Kentucky Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Jews--Identity. College students--Social conditions Greek letter societies. Childhood Jewish children Religion Emigration and immigration. Family histories. Worship (Judaism) College students--Religious life Antisemitism Anti-Semitism Discrimination. Sara Levy Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|12(4)|40(12)|100(3)|116(10)|144(6)|173(2)|183(15)|197(12)|215(16)|247(5)|275(1)|310(4)|332(10)|353(3)|382(8)|401(6)|436(2)|460(4)|474(5)|486(8)|504(9)|546(7)|558(12)|575(7)|590(4)|599(10)|617(14)|631(9)|646(16)|668(4)|696(8)|716(8)|745(7)|766(10)|791(7)|820(3)|842(10)|855(7)|867(13)|895(8)|921(5)|938(9)|959(5)|976(2)|1004(6)|1022(3)|1047(13)|1059(1)|1070(6)|1090(6)|1114(9)|1144(3)|1180(7)|1195(14)|1215(4)|1233(5)|1250(12)|1266(17)|1293(2)|1301(8)|1310(13)|1337(16)|1347(11)|1356(11)|1382(7)|1416(14)|1426(5)|1445(12)|1471(2)|1497(5)|1528(8)|1557(16)|1571(9)|1582(15)|1599(8)|1634(12)|1659(3)|1685(7)|1725(6)|1742(3)|1754(14)|1774(3)|1810(5)|1821(8)|1837(10)|1869(9)|1879(3)|1897(12)|1917(8)|1944(10)|1961(3)|1985(6)|2008(11)|2026(3)|2047(10)|2062(17)|2079(5)|2103(10)|2113(5)|2130(15)|2138(2)|2150(5)|2166(13)|2175(13)|2199(13)|2211(9)|2229(13)|2240(11)|2260(1)|2286(5)|2295(8)|2308(8)|2325(5)|2337(6)|2359(3)|2392(7)|2417(10)|2444(13)|2481(3)|2503(11) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253335440" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 0 Childhood in Williamson, West Virginia Uh, today, today is August 12th, 2015. Sara Levy talks about growing up in Williamson, West Virginia. She goes on to discuss the Williamson Bargain Store, a clothing store that was owned and operated by her parents. Appalachia ; Stone ; Tug River ; West Virginia ; Williamson (W. Va.) ; Williamson Bargain Store Childhood ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Small business--Ownership 37.6742682, -82.2773629 17 Williamson, West Virginia 157 Levy's mother / father's immigration Um, so, when did it--when did your parents move to Williamson, and when did they-- Levy lists off her mother's family from Williamson. She also discusses her father's immigration into the United States from Poland. Once arrived, her father stayed with family in Chicago and worked as a theatre attendant while he taught himself English and assimilated. Chicago (Ill.) ; Coal ; Coal mining ; Edith Shannon ; Harry Shannon ; Hollers (hollows) ; Jimmy Shannon ; Marvin Shannon ; Peddlers ; Poland ; Raymond Shannon Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. 17 286 Father's arrival in Williamson, West Virginia And how, how, how old was he and when did he move from Chicago to Williamson? Levy recounts the story of her father coming to Williamson as a peddler, traveling to remote areas and selling odds and ends, and founding the Williamson Bargain Store with a Syrian business partner named Mikhel. Her father eventually bought out his business partner and remained in Williamson. Appalachia ; Auschwitz ; Ben Stone ; Coal ; Coal mining ; Concentration camps ; Hollers (hollows) ; Holocaust ; Peddlers ; Williamson (W. Va.) ; Yiddish Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Ownership 17 594 Williamson Bargain Store / Williamson Grade School So, okay. He was here and he went into business with Mikhel, and then Mikhel left the business or your father bought him out. Levy talks about the clothing store her father owned, Williamson Bargain Store. She and her sister both worked in the store throughout their childhood and attended Williamson Grade School. Cleveland (Ohio) ; Ofsa Shoe Store ; Williamson Daily News ; Williamson Grade School ; Williamson High School Childhood ; Education ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Small business--Ownership 41.49932, -81.6943605 17 Cleveland, Ohio 1009 Jewish practice in the Stone household Can you tell me a little bit about your parents' relationship to Judaism? Levy recounts her parents' religious practices and beliefs. Her father was not particularly religious and her mother was a devout convert to Judaism. She also recounts her father meeting her mother in the Steckler household. B'nai Israel Temple ; Conversion ; Gefilte Fish ; Huntington (W. Va.) ; Peddlers ; Ruth Steckler ; Steckler ; Temple Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Worship (Judaism) 38.420833, -82.423611 17 Huntington, West Virginia http://www.wv-bnaisholom.org/ Website for B'nai Israel Temple 1330 First encounter with Antisemitism Now at--I'll tell you about another experience. Levy recounts a story of being mocked by a fellow student for being Jewish when she was six years old. This eventually led to a confrontation that led Levy to push her bully down a flight of wooden steps. Williamson Grade School sent teachers to Levy's classroom to teach about Jesus and sing gospel music with the students. Columbus (Ohio) ; Danny Freeburg ; Gloria Ginsburg ; Gospel music ; Morris Ginsburg ; Nashville (Tenn.) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children 39.9611755, -82.9987942 17 Columbus, Ohio 1732 The role of Jewish tradition in her childhood You mentioned, uh, your mom cooking for holidays. Levy recounts the role of Jewish tradition during her childhood. Her mother was a devout convert and assimilated into Jewish culture and customs. Her father made Chrain from horseradish root and her mother made gefilte fish. Chrain ; Gefilte Fish ; Hess family ; Kashrut ; Kosher ; Shabbos ; Taylor Jewelry Store Childhood ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.4192496, -82.445154 17 Huntington, West Virginia 1955 Meeting Erle, and their first date And their son--Sonia and I were older because Ted Hess wanted to date one of us. Levy talks about meeting Erle and their first date together. At 16, she met Erle on a blind date in the summer of 1951. She also mentions Zeta Beta Tau and the Jewish students involved in the UK chapter of ZBT. Ivan Goldfarb ; Joyland Country Club ; Ted Hess ; University of Kentucky ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 2417 Daily life at the University of Kentucky in the 1950s So you came and you started school in 1953? Levy discusses daily life at University of Kentucky in the 1950s, as well as the student dating scene during this time. She also talks about a history professor, Enogh Khrae, who scheduled a test on Yom Kippur and refused to allow her to make up the exam. Enogh Khrae ; European History ; Fine art ; Jewell Hall ; Yom Kippur ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; College students--Social conditions ; Discrimination. ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; University of Kentucky 38.0389023, -84.504929 17 University of Kentucky 3505 Marrying Erle / Erle's family And when did you get married? Levy reminisces about marrying Erle. Erle's grandfather owned a shop on Upper Street, Phillip Gall & ; amp Son. Levy named her fourth child Phillip, after Erle's grandfather Philip Gall. Clothing stores ; Pawnshops ; Phillip Gall ; Phillip Gall & ; amp Son ; Upper Street (Lexington) Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Marriage ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.047215, -84.4987036 17 Site of Phillip Gall & ; amp Son clothing store 3890 Jewish sororities at UK So, can you tell me, I guess, a little bit about how that time at U.K. impacted your Jewish identity? Levy discusses Jewish sororities at UK, and other Jewish students at the university. Levy was briefly involved in a sorority that she helped found but left because she did not agree with the group's mission. She wanted the sorority's mission to help other students but other members were not as enthusiastic and used the club for social functions. Hillel ; Jewish sorority ; Lillian Ruben ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Shirley Ruby ; Sonia Stone College students--Attitudes. ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington 17 4487 Jewish community in Lexington I'm going to ask you some more questions about the family that you and Erle built together, but before I do that and jump ahead to that... Levy discusses the Jewish community of Lexington. Coming from Williamson, Lexington had a significantly larger Jewish population than her hometown in West Virginia. She recalls 10 or 12 Jewish students that regularly socialized together. They often met at Hillel or at Temple Adath Israel. After Sara and Erle's children grew older she became more involved within the Jewish community in Lexington. She and Erle attended the temple on Friday services as well as during the holidays. Cooper ; Gunga Din ; Kashrut ; Kosher ; Moe Davis ; Rabbi Leffler ; Reform Judaism ; Reform Temple ; Temple Adath Israel ; Yiddish College students--Religious life ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Worship (Judaism) 38.035655, -84.482845 17 Temple Adath Israel in Lexington, Kentucky http://www.lextai.org/ Official website for Temple Adath Israel 6833 Closing statements Um, is there anything that else that you would like to share looking back, or? Levy gives her closing statements for the interview. She talks about her husband Erle and her admiration for him. She also remembers to tell a story about her involvement in a university carnival sponsored by the campus fraternities, perhaps taking place on St. Patrick's Day. Fraternity ; St. Patrick's Day ; University of Kentucky College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Marriage 17 Oral History Sara Levy talks about growing up in Williamson, West Virginia. She goes on to discuss the Williamson Bargain Store, a clothing store that was owned and operated by her parents. Levy lists off her mother's family from Williamson. She also discusses her father's immigration into the United States from Poland. Levy recounts the story of her father coming to Williamson as a peddler, and founding the Williamson Bargain Store with a Syrian business partner named Mikhel. Levy recounts her parents' religious practices and beliefs. She recounts the role of Jewish tradition during her childhood, and her first time experiencing anti-Semitism. Levy discusses daily life at University of Kentucky in the 1950s, as well as the student dating scene during this time. Levy discusses Jewish sororities at UK, and other Jewish students at the university. Levy was briefly involved in a sorority that she helped found but left because she did not agree with the group's mission. Levy discusses the Jewish community of Lexington. She reminisces about marrying her husband, Earl. FERNHEIMER: Uh, today--today is August 12th, 2015. My name is Janice Fernheimer, I' ; m associate professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies, and director of Jewish studies here at the University of Kentucky. And it is my great pleasure to have the honor to interview Miss Sara Levy of Lexington, now, but we' ; re going to find out where from earlier, here in the student--Louis B. Nunn studio for oral history. Um, okay, I think we' ; re going to go ahead and get started. Thank you for coming. It' ; s a real honor to have this opportunity to get to ask these questions. This interview is part of the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Um, can you tell me what was your name at birth? LEVY: Sara Ann Stone. FERNHEIMER: And where and when were you born? LEVY: Williamson, West Virginia, which is right on the border of Kentucky, separated by the mighty Tug River, which I' ; m sure you' ; ve heard of. FERNHEIMER: Yes. LEVY: And my parents' ; store was in West Virginia, and our house was across the river in Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. LEVY: So, it was interesting. FERNHEIMER: What were your parents' ; names? And you told us they opened up or owned-- LEVY: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --owned the store, but what--how would you classify their occupation? LEVY: Their occupation? They owned a store. Williamson Bargain Store. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And, uh, my sister and I would work on weekends in the store. And the store was open Monday nights, Monday evenings, till nine o' ; clock. All the stores in Williamson, almost all of them were Jewish owned. Very few not Jewish. And they picked Monday night to stay open, so that' ; s what they did. Sonia and I--my sister, Sonia and I worked at the store a lot. FERNHEIMER: And how--when--you say they stayed open late on Monday, ' ; til about what time? LEVY: Nine. FERNHEIMER: Nine. LEVY: Nine o' ; clock. CREW: Do you your paper down there, just so-- LEVY: Are you taking this away from me, John? CREW: I just went to set it right there for you, if that' ; s okay. LEVY: Okay. CREW: Just so--it-- LEVY: --there-- CREW: --makes a lot of noise when it' ; s in your hand, and I want you to be able to use your hands. LEVY: I don' ; t-- FERNHEIMER: Gesticulate. CREW: Yeah. LEVY: That' ; s good. CREW: Yeah, without it-- LEVY: --okay-- CREW: --rustling around. LEVY: Excellent. Thank you, John. CREW: You' ; re welcome. FERNHEIMER: Um, So, when did it--when did your parents move to Williamson, and when did they-- LEVY: --my mother-- FERNHEIMER: --open the store? LEVY: --grew up there, in West Williamson. And my mother' ; s mother died when my mother was ten years old. She had four brothers. FERNHEIMER: Wow. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Do you the names of, uh-- LEVY: The brothers? FERNHEIMER: Well, uh, your mother' ; s name, and then the names of the brothers. LEVY: Yes. My mother' ; s name was Edith Shannon. And, uh, the brother' ; s name--was Jimmy, Marvin, Raymond, and Harry was the baby. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. And your father? His name? LEVY: My father was a Polish immigrant. He and a sister came over when he was twelve years old. And. um, the sister, I think, was about eighteen months younger than he. Twelve years old. And they were in steerage on a boat, and he was so sick. Motion sick. I remember him telling me he thought he was going to die on that boat, he really did. A twelve-year-old child. So, um, they got to Chicago, and there was a distant cousin, Cousin Sam, who let the two children sleep on his kitchen floor. And that was not a unique way to do-- FERNHEIMER: And how did your father get from Chicago, sleeping on the kitchen floor at his uncle' ; s--Cousin Sam' ; s to Williamson? LEVY: No, no, Chicago. FERNHEIMER: Chicago. LEVY: Cousin Sam was in Chicago. FERNHEIMER: Right, but you--your father stayed with Cousin Sam in Chicago and, uh-- LEVY: As a child. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And he learned to speak English-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- LEVY: --by ushering in a theater, a movie theater, and then he would go to see plays, sneak in, as much as he could. And this was in Chicago. FERNHEIMER: And how--how--how old was he and when did he move from Chicago to Williamson? LEVY: He had to be probably in his early thirties or late twenties. And the reason he moved to Williamson was because he kept hearing stories about the coal mines making people wealthy, that you could make a really good business because coal was king-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- LEVY: --at that time, and Williamson was--coal mining town. So, he came to Williamson, and he ended up--he was a peddler first, and when I say a peddler, he had a--I remember him telling me he had a big sack that he carried on--my father was a little guy. (laughter) I mean, he was, like, five foot four. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. LEVY: Really. FERNHEIMER: My height! LEVY: Carried on his back--and went from house to house in what they call up in the hollers. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: I don' ; t know if you know what the hollers are, but maybe you can describe it better, just-- FERNHEIMER: --oh-- LEVY: --it was like a group of houses--it' ; s like a little village, but very little. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: And no elected officials. It was just a group. A neighborhood, like--so, he carried his peddling stuff. He carried pots and pans and sewing stuff and tools and all kinds of stuff. And he would go from house to house and sell the stuff at--sometimes one of the women would tell him, " ; The next time you come through, I need a certain kind of needle." ; Or, " ; I need a thing for my sewing machine," ; and s-- on and on. So, he did well doing that. My dad was very friendly, very easy to talk with. So, he did very well. Then he--in Williamson, he made friends with a guy that he called Michel. And Michel was Syrian. They went into business together. This is before he met my mother. FERNHEIMER: What year about do you think this was? Roughly what year do you think this was that he started the business with Michel? LEVY: Um, I have--well, my sister was born in 1933, and I was born in 1935. And he had been in business--or he may have just started the business, because--well, Sonia and I worked in the store, but we were already twelve or thirteen years old when we did that. Eleven or twelve. So, what year? It would have to be, uh, maybe in the late ' ; 30s. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: So, Michel was Syrian and didn' ; t like Jews, except he didn' ; t think my father was like most Jews. That' ; s--he literally said that. Anyway, Daddy ultimately bought his share of the business, of the Williamson Bargain Store, which was on a corner of Main Street. First--Second Avenue was the big main street in Williamson, was Second Avenue. And, um, I think Michel maybe went back to Syria or something. I don' ; t know where he went. But then, my dad owned the store and used to take the train to Chicago to buy merchandise. And-- FERNHEIMER: Did he still stay with his cousin Sam when he would go to Chicago? LEVY: I think Sam died. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. LEVY: But he brought over a sister. He brought over a brother. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Uncle Ben, my father' ; s brother. Now, I think all of that has to be prefaced by the fact that my father' ; s father was so frum that he would not bring the family to this country-- FERNHEIMER: --oh-- LEVY: --because he said it was too traif, and he didn' ; t want my dad coming to this country. He didn' ; t want my dad' ; s brother Ben coming to this country, or his sister, Sophie. Those were the three that got here. The rest of the family was sent to Auschwitz. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. They stayed at home. LEVY: And he got a letter from someone that had--it had been sent through Sweden-- FERNHEIMER: --huh-- LEVY: --a letter, and it was in Yiddish. And, uh, that' ; s how he knew the rest of the family was gone. FERNHEIMER: What was the town that your father was from in Poland? Do you know? LEVY: I don' ; t have a clue. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: It was Poland. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Lover of Jewish people, yeah. FERNHEIMER: So, okay, he was here and he went into business with Michel, and then Michel left the business, or your father bought him out. LEVY: He bought him out, and-- FERNHEIMER: --so-- LEVY: --stayed in business for years. I mean, we grew up--we always had nice clothes, because it was a clothing store. FERNHEIMER: Right. What else did they sell besides clothing? LEVY: Is what? FERNHEIMER: What else did they sell or did you sell? LEVY: Well, there--there was, uh, children' ; s wear-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- LEVY: --and some men' ; s wear, but I didn' ; t pay attention, really, to that side of the store except for hanging up stuff and, you know, getting it straight and--that' ; s what Sonia and I did, uh-- FERNHEIMER: And your sister Sonia was older, uh, correct? LEVY: Right. When we were going to school, and--yeah, we were probably--well, we were always--pretty much always working in the store, but--given responsibility and shown how to use the cash register. We were already in--probably the fifth grade. Maybe fourth. Fourth or fifth grade, we could use the cash register. FERNHEIMER: Wow. LEVY: And give the correct change--(laughter)--because there was no--this is automatic. The automatic was us, so that was fine. FERNHEIMER: And was it just you and your sister? Did you have any brothers or other siblings? Did you have other siblings? LEVY: No, just my sister and I. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And we' ; re still very close. FERNHEIMER: Is she local, in Lexington? LEVY: She lives in Cleveland. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: She married a guy from Lexington. They got married. And her husband fixed Erle up with me. FERNHEIMER: Nice. We' ; re going to get there in just a second. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Before we get there, I want to talk a little bit more--ask you a few more questions about your childhood and growing up in Williamson. Can you tell me about where you went to school? LEVY: I went to grade school, what they called grade school, then, which was a first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: And that was in on building, and then next to that building was, um, junior high, seventh, eighth, ninth, and then tenth, eleven, and twelve was the senior building. FERNHEIMER: What was the name of the school? LEVY: Williamson--well, it was Williamson High School, and wasn' ; t--I think it was Williamson Grade School-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- LEVY: --and, uh, the middle--I think the grade school and the middle school was all in one building, but in different rooms. And we used to have a preacher come in. We had preachers come in to make what they call--I--I don' ; t know what they called it, but they would have, like, a big rally for Jesus. FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. LEVY: And by the time I was in fifth grade, I didn' ; t want to be in the room, but they didn' ; t let you go out. So, I just sat there. One other Jewish kid was in my class, Danny Friedberg, who is a pediatrician in Cincinnati now. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: Or maybe he' ; s retired now. He probably is, ' ; cause he would be eighty, also. Yeah. So-- FERNHEIMER: How do you spell his last name? Friedberg? F-R-- LEVY: F-R-I-E-D-B-E-R-G. Friedberg. FERNHEIMER: And did his family also own one of the stores? You said-- LEVY: They had a furniture store. His father actually was a lawyer and--but the family had a furniture store. And then he had a brother, Paul, who also became a lawyer, and Danny became a doctor. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember the name of their furniture store? LEVY: Almost all of the stores in Williamson were owned by Jews. So, Friedberg--wasn' ; t Friedberg Furniture. I don' ; t know what it was, but the--I cannot think what it was. You know when--it' ; ll come to me and I' ; ll call you-- FERNHEIMER: --that' ; s fine-- LEVY: --' ; bout one o' ; clock in the morning. FERNHEIMER: No problem. LEVY: And I' ; m trying really hard to go to sleep. FERNHEIMER: I' ; ll be up! (laughs) LEVY: Yeah, you will be. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Um, so there was a furniture store, there' ; s your family' ; s bargain store. Can you tell me at least the kinds of stores--the other stores that were in downtown-- LEVY: Clothing stores--there was Brown Clothing Store. Sam and Bessie Brown. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And Sonia and I got our nicer clothes there. FERNHEIMER: So, that was more upscale kind of clothing, or--was it more upscale clothing? LEVY: My um--yeah, upscale. Our store was more moderate. Like, two of our best sellers were, uh, Vicky Vaughn and Tony Todd. And they were, like, nice, everyday clothes. I loved the names. Vicky Vaughn. Tony Todd. FERNHEIMER: Very alli-- LEVY: I used to make up stories about ' ; em. I used to make up poems about ' ; em. (laughter) So, that was fun. FERNHEIMER: Wow, wow. Any other stores that were--that you can remember? LEVY: Well, Schwachter' ; s, um, there was a shoe store. Ofsa Shoe Store, O-F-S-A. And these were very good friends of my parents. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Um, the dentist in Williamson was a Jew, and the doctor--for a long time, the only doctor in Williamson was Jewish. Jerome Gaskill. And the woman who owned the newspaper was Jewish. FERNHEIMER: What was her name? LEVY: Trying to remember her name. I remember exactly what she looked like. She was nice as she could be, and she wrote a lot of editorials. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. Uh, do you remember anything-- LEVY: --I want to say-- FERNHEIMER: --in particular? LEVY: --her last name was Shine, S-H-I-N-E. And--and I' ; m saying she owned the newspaper. I think probably Hearst or somebody owned--but she is the one that was in charge of it. I don' ; t know how they did that as far as ownership-- FERNHEIMER: --what-- LEVY: --or anything like that. FERNHEIMER: What was the name of the local paper? LEVY: Williamson Daily News. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Wasn' ; t that clever. FERNHEIMER: Easy to remember. Can you tell me a little bit about your parents' ; relationship to Judaism? You said your father' ; s father wouldn' ; t--didn' ; t want anyone moving to the United States-- LEVY: --oh-- FERNHEIMER: --' ; cause it wasn' ; t frum or religious-- LEVY: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --enough. LEVY: He--he was, um-- FERNHEIMER: So, what was-- LEVY: --he-- FERNHEIMER: --your dad' ; s relationship to Judaism? LEVY: My dad. FERNHEIMER: Or your mom' ; s? LEVY: No, my dad was Jewish. He was not religious. My mother converted. She was much more into traditional Judaism. Observing, making Jewish food. She--she' ; s like the convert that really was a convert and really got into it. I mean, she used to make--she--I remember walking home from school, and as we, uh, crossed a bridge--crossing the river, ' ; cause we lived on the Kentucky side. We had a big house. And as we approached our house, my mom was cooking for the holidays, you could smell it--(laughter)--because she would get whole fish and cook them, and it smelled so disgusting--I can' ; t even put in words how disgusting it smelled as I was walking toward home. I didn' ; t want to go home because the smell--' ; cause she would make gefilte fish from scratch. I' ; m surprised she didn' ; t go to the river and catch the fish, I don' ; t know. (laughter) But, uh, had to be from scratch, and it was like the whole house would stink for days from cooking fish. There were no fans to take the odor out or anything else, and--seemed like it was always hot, and she wanted to make gefilte fish. None of us liked gefilte fish, but we always had a lot of company. Lot of company for all the holidays. So, she always made gefilte fish. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: But it was good. It was a good--I' ; m saying it was a good place to grow up, but how would I know whether it was or not? It was the place I grew up, and I always felt happy. I mean, I had a happy family. Happy house, happy good--dogs, we always had dogs. And-- FERNHEIMER: How did your parents meet? LEVY: My daddy--after--it' ; s--it is interesting, because things come in circles and they meet each other. My daddy, as I said, was carrying a big pack on his back and going into the hollers and around the mountains selling stuff. There was a family in Williamson itself, Steckler. And Ruth Steckler was one of my mother' ; s best friends. And Mrs. Steckler--because my mother' ; s mother died when my mom was ten years old, she grew up without a mother. But Mrs. Steckler stepped in and gave her--I mean, she spent so much time at the Steckler house, she may have thought she lived there. I don' ; t know what she thought, but she was always with Ruth. Ruth and she were very, very good friends. And that would be why my daddy met my mother, would be that my mother was at the Steckler house and--for all holidays and for Shabbas, they always had her. So, she spent a lot of time there, and they had this bachelor from a big city coming to Williamson. So, they introduced my mom and dad, and my mother was a beautiful, beautiful woman. Pictures of her--I mean, she just--was just gorgeous. So, they ended up together. And, uh--to convert, it took her over a year. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, what rabbi supervised the conversion? LEVY: Well, they had to drive to Huntington to--for-- FERNHEIMER: West--in Virginia or in Kentucky? LEVY: In Williamson, West Virginia-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- LEVY: --to Huntington for a rabbi to convert her, ' ; cause we didn' ; t have a rabbi. We had a temple-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- LEVY: --and we had a student rabbi from HUC [Hebrew Union College] every other weekend. It was really interesting. FERNHEIMER: Were there any other synagogues aside from the temple? Or was it just the temple in Williamson? LEVY: How many Jews do you think there were in Williamson? FERNHEIMER: I' ; m just asking! LEVY: It was, like, twenty families--(laughter)--maybe twenty-five families, so-- FERNHEIMER: And what was the name of the temple? LEVY: B' ; Nai Israel. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: I should have brought pictures of-- FERNHEIMER: Oh, you have pictures? LEVY: I have pictures. FERNHEIMER: We' ; re going to follow up on the pictures. LEVY: I mean, they' ; re copies of--you know, paper copies of Sonia and me and the people--the kids at the temple and-- FERNHEIMER: Oh, wonderful. LEVY: I' ; ve got all that at the house. I should have thought of that. Didn' ; t think about it. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay. LEVY: So, we were pretty involved in the temple. I played the organ Friday night. We did not have Saturday morning services. We didn' ; t even know about Saturday morning services. Sonia and me, we didn' ; t. But--now, at--I' ; ll tell you about another experience. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m listening. LEVY: When I was in first grade, starting school, and Sonia was in the third grade--so, we walked to school, and there was a girl, her name was June Gayle Smith. I hope she' ; s dead now, but I don' ; t know. Um, June Gayle, first day of school--first week. I can' ; t say the first day, but during the first week of school and stuff--I was in the first grade, she was in the first grade. So, she lived about a block from Sonia and me. And she would walk to school behind us, not with us. And she started singing this song about dirty Jews live--should live in garbage cans. A song that she made up, I' ; m sure. Her own creation. Right behind Sonia and me, walking, singing the song about the dirty Jews, and that was us! And I kept looking back and saying, " ; Stop it, June Gayle! Stop it! You shouldn' ; t do that. That' ; s nasty. That' ; s mean. That' ; s so mean. How can you be so mean?" ; She kept right on, right on, right on. So, when we got to school, again, I was saying, " ; Stop it," ; and " ; please don' ; t." ; She kept on, I pushed her down a flight of steps. Wooden steps. I know now I could have killed her. I could' ; ve--she could' ; ve been crippled for the rest of her life. I mean, I was terrible. I did that. I wanted to shut her up. She wouldn' ; t shut up. So, I' ; m excusing myself--can' ; t do that. But that' ; s what I did, I pushed her down a flight of wooden steps. FERNHEIMER: And you were what, six or seven at the time? LEVY: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: You were six or seven years old? LEVY: I was six. FERNHEIMER: Wow. LEVY: And I wanted her to stop it and she wouldn' ; t. And she didn' ; t like Jews, and Sonia and I were Jews. There were not many Jews, but we were two of them. And, um, of course, I got in a lot of trouble. And mama had to come to school, but my mother came to school on a regular basis because--well, they had, uh--oh, in all the classes, like from first grade on, once or twice a week they would have some woman with a--a cord thing that they brought into the room. Not to--a whole thing, but just to my room and then maybe to somebody else' ; s room. And she would teach and sing, like, gospel music. Like, " ; Jesus loves me, yes I know, for the Bible told me so." ; So, she had her little thing and she would sing in it and teach us. So, in my class, it was me and Danny Friedberg. And I wasn' ; t going to sing Jesus loves me, and I didn' ; t. I got in trouble. Not her. I got sent to the principle, because I just sat there. I wanted to go out, but they wouldn' ; t let me go out. And I just sat there. I wasn' ; t going to sing " ; Jesus loves me." ; So, I was sent to the principal' ; s office, and the next morning--and I was horrified. I remember crying over this. My mom came to the school. My mom spent a lot of time coming to the school. (laughter) She knew the principal. Marvin was the principal of the elementary and seventh, eighth, and ninth grade. She--he was not the principal--the senior--but the rest of us. So, she knew him, and she came up and bawled him out. And things changed, because I was allowed to leave--Danny and I were allowed to leave our room and go to the library when they came--when the woman came in with her cord and--to teach us about Jesus. We were allowed to leave. But that was because my mom came up. So, she did it for all the Jewish students. All of them. There were four of us, and-- FERNHEIMER: So, it was you, Danny, Sonia, and who was the fourth? LEVY: Danny, Gloria Ginsberg-- FERNHEIMER: --okay-- LEVY: --who I' ; m still friends with. She lives in Columbus. FERNHEIMER: What did her family do? LEVY: Her family had a store, Ginsberg' ; s. Her mom was the daughter of very good friends of my mom and dad. Of course, I mean, they were--everybody was very close. The Jewish community was very, very close. And she married a guy from Nashville who was so handsome. He was so gorgeous. Morris Ginsberg was his name. And his--she was--Esther Helen Azark was her name before she married Morris Ginsberg. FERNHEIMER: And she changed it from Esther to Gloria? LEVY: She was Gloria' ; s mother. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay, I' ; m sorry. LEVY: Yeah. So, I felt like we had a good childhood. I was always satisfied, happy, and I will say my mom always told Sonia and me, " ; You come from sturdy stock, and don' ; t you ever forget that." ; And I didn' ; t know what sturdy stock meant, because I remember her explaining to me, strong family. " ; Your family, your mom, your dad, our brothers and sisters--your dad' ; s family who you didn' ; t even know, they were very, very strong people. Mentally, physically. They were sturdy--and stock, this family you come from, is strong family." ; And that always--she--I mean, she kept trotting that out all the time. It was always, " ; Don' ; t forget, you come from sturdy stock." ; If we were upset about something, " ; This will pass. You come from sturdy stock. Don' ; t ever leave that somewhere else." ; I--now I realize that was so smart of her. But I didn' ; t know then. I just thought, oh, I' ; m sick of the sturdy stock business. So, what else? FERNHEIMER: You mentioned, um, your mom cooking for the holidays. LEVY: Oh, God. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about the role of Jewish tradition in your childhood? You talk about Shabbas and the Jewish community being closes-- LEVY: Well, my mother converted-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- LEVY: --and it took about a year. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: They had to drive to Huntington for her to be converted, and they went once a month. And she had books that she had to read in the month, and then the rabbi would test her. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: And she did well. And, uh, she was converted, and it was--a conversion ceremony. So, she was so happy and--a--as a convert, she became more Jewish than the Jews. It was just, like, oh--now that I think about it, it was crazy. She really got into it. Gefilte fish from scratch? Whoa! But, at the same time, my father made chrein. He would grate chrein and use beet juice and it was really good. And he would take part of it and put a little bit of sugar in it. FERNHEIMER: Did he grow the horseradish for the chrein? LEVY: No, he didn' ; t grow it, but he bought it. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: They had to special order-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah, that-- LEVY: The A& ; P had to special order horseradish root for the Jewish men who wanted to do it, and some of the women. So, I mean, I remember coming home from school and getting this awful odor as I approached our house, which was the fish cooking. And then, Daddy grating-- FERNHEIMER: --horseradish--(laughs) LEVY: --horseradish, with tears--I mean, I' ; m sorry, it' ; s a--but, you know what? They had to do it, they liked to do it. And I didn' ; t really appreciate it until I was growing up and realized all moms and dads are not like this. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Because they were--really good mom and dad. FERNHEIMER: So, did you have--you said you had--you guys went to temple for Sabbath Friday evening. Did you have Shabbat dinners at the house or was that-- LEVY: Oh, we did a--we had a lot of Shabbat dinners at our house. And when the student rabbis came in, they stayed at our house. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. LEVY: We had a nice guest room in back. I mean, we could accommodate them easily. Uh, and we did have a lot of Shabbas dinners, because there were a lot of people there who didn' ; t have family. So, my mom kind of felt like we are the family of the people who have no family. FERNHEIMER: So, it was a big temple? LEVY: And she was very much like that. Yeah. So, she always had the pot roasts. I mean, she cooked stuff, just put--she loved to cook. But she also worked every day. I mean, she did not have an easy life, but she had the life she wanted. And she was really a good mom. She was really good. My daddy was always a good daddy. FERNHEIMER: Did she work at the store, as well? Your mom? Did she work at the store? LEVY: Oh, yeah. FERNHEIMER: And were you--she--you said she made pot roast. Did they get kosher meat? Or did--did they care? LEVY: There--we--there was no kosher. FERNHEIMER: I didn' ; t think so. LEVY: There was one kosher family from Germany that-- FERNHEIMER: Hmm. LEVY: I mean, I must have been--I was still in school when they moved in and bought a jewelry store that used to be Taylor Jewelry Store, I guess the nicest jewelry store in Williamson, ' ; cause I think there were two. And their name was Hess, and they were German refugees. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: And their son--Sonia and I were older, because Ted Hess wanted to date one of us. (laughter) And ultimately wanted to become engaged. FERNHEIMER: With you or, uh-- LEVY: To me. Did I want to marry Ted Hess? No. Did I want to go out with him? No. And I quit going out with him, because he wanted--I mean, it started out with, you know, " ; You want to go--go to the movies?" ; or something like that, and that was okay. But then, when it was just getting too often--and I stopped it, ' ; cause I started thinking he couldn' ; t be thinking of a future together, ' ; cause--I think at that time, I had already met Erle, and I knew that was coming together, to get him. FERNHEIMER: So-- LEVY: To get Erle. FERNHEIMER: So, tell me a little bit about what dating was like, and then I--I want to hear the story about how you knew--how you know about Erle, how you met him, and--and how you came to get in--um-- LEVY: I met him on a blind date. Sonia was here in Lexington. FERNHEIMER: Was she at the university? LEVY: Library science. UK [University of Kentucky] had a great library science building, because we--I went also--I mean, I visited West Virginia University, which--we could go to either one, or we could go to Ohio State. I didn' ; t want to go to Ohio State. And, um, we both--Sonia came here because it had a good library science--she wanted a degree, and I said, " ; What are you going to do with that?" ; She' ; s, " ; I' ; m going to be in charge of a large library, preferably a university library." ; I mean, she had it all planned out. FERNHEIMER: And what year was this that she started at the university, do you remember? LEVY: Nineteen fifty-three. I graduated high school, but I had already met Erle. FERNHEIMER: Okay, so she started in 1953 or you started in 195-- LEVY: I started in--I graduated high school in ' ; 53. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Sonia started in ' ; 51. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And so, she was already--had friends, and there was a Jewish sorority. And there was a ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau] chapter. FERNHEIMER: Was your sister part of the sorority? LEVY: No, so, there was--all of the Jewish boys that we knew belonged to ZBT, and they had a house. And when I was chasing Erle, I used to just go over to the fraternity house and hope that he might--' ; cause he didn' ; t live there. He lived in Lexington, in his home. And I' ; m just thinking that maybe he' ; ll come by and I' ; ll get to see him. I think now the boys there probably thought I was some kind of schlepper or--I don' ; t know what they thought. But I would just come and just--and when I first came to Lexington to get Erle--' ; cause I met him in high--I was in high school. FERNHEIMER: Tell me about that night. LEVY: Well, that was a-- FERNHEIMER: When you first met him. LEVY: --blind date. FERNHEIMER: You were how old? LEVY: I was sixteen. FERNHEIMER: Okay, and he was how old? LEVY: He was seventeen. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And he had just started his freshman year, mid--in January, he started, and he was smoking a pipe. Oh, so sophisticated! FERNHEIMER: So, this was ' ; 51? January of ' ; 51? LEVY: I would have met him--not in January, but probably in the spring or early summer. FERNHEIMER: Okay, and he was smoking his pipe. LEVY: It was in the summer. It was June. I met him in June. FERNHEIMER: Okay. So, tell me about this blind date. Who were you supposed to--you were set up with him or someone else? LEVY: With him. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And my brother-in-law, who was dating Sonia at that time--Ivan Goldfarb. FERNHEIMER: And he was at the University of Kentucky, as well? Ivan? LEVY: Yes, he--he lived in Lexington, and he was, uh, a scientist. And he majored in organic chemistry and worked for the government. Worked for the Air Force. He did a whole bunch of stuff, I don' ; t know. Stuff that I don' ; t know about and don' ; t really want to know about, because when you start talking numbers and chemistry--no. So, I' ; m--they fixed us up on a blind date, and I kissed Erle on the first date. (gasps) That was, like, (gasps) nobody--only trashy people did that. But I did it. FERNHEIMER: Where did--where did he pick you up? Where did you go? What did you do besides kiss him? LEVY: We went--the first date, we got something to eat and sat around talking, Ivan and Sonia and Erle and me. And that was fun. And then, two nights later, Erle called me. Course, I was glued to the telephone. (laughter) And--or maybe I called him, I don' ; t remember now. I really don' ; t. And we went swimming. FERNHEIMER: Where did you go swimming? LEVY: At Joyland. It was a country club. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And I guess Erle' ; s parents or Ivan' ; s parents belonged. And it was evening, and we went swimming. And I still think that the reason we went swimming was because Ivan and Erle wanted to see us in bathing suits. I do believe that. So, that was okay thing here ' ; cause I had already decided he was mine, you know? Didn' ; t matter. But what was hard was I was still in high school, and I had to go back and finish high school and then come here. In the meanwhile, he had had almost two years to date this--oh, not nice Jewish girls. Freddy the Body. FERNHEIMER: Freddy the Body? LEVY: Yeah, her name was Freddy, and she was built. I can' ; t even begin--everything was exactly where it was supposed to be. Everything. FERNHEIMER: What was her bod-- LEVY: And she used to wear these really tight knit things. I had never even seen one ' ; til I saw it on her. (laughter) And then I wanted to slit my throat, because I knew that was it. But she was not Jewish. FERNHEIMER: Ah! LEVY: That was the thing that I had-- FERNHEIMER: What was her last name? LEVY: --that she didn' ; t have. And he was dating other girls, too. I mean, he--it was just a mess. It was a bad time of my life, going after him. It was very bad. FERNHEIMER: So, would you say he was the main reason you decided to come to the University of Kentucky? Was--was Erle the main reason you enrolled at UK? LEVY: I came to Kentucky to get him, not because I wanted to go to Kentucky. I mean, I was always a really good student, so it didn' ; t make any difference where I went. I was going to be a good student. I was always good. But he was in Lexington, and that' ; s--I couldn' ; t get him not being in Lexington. I wasn' ; t sure how I was going to get him, but I got him. FERNHEIMER: So, you came and you started school in 1953? LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And what were you--uh, what were you studying besides Erle? LEVY: Fine art. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: I painted. I did a lot of painting and, uh, drawing and that kind of thing. FERNHEIMER: And where did you live when you were in Lexington? Did you-- LEVY: In the dorms. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember which one? LEVY: They tore it down, so I should--Erle would remember exactly which one. Jewel Hall was the second one I lived in. The first one was a freshman dorm. I can' ; t--I don' ; t remember the name. I didn' ; t care about the name. I didn' ; t really care about much except Erle. I was always a good student. I did not have to work hard, ever. So, I didn' ; t take anything with numbers. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me about a typical day on campus, then? What--what your typical day at UK looked like? LEVY: Um-- FERNHEIMER: What did--you go--what did you do? Where' ; d you go? LEVY: Well, the dorm had, um, cafeteria in the dorm. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: And I would go there for breakfast, which would be a bowl of cereal and some fruit. I mean, I didn' ; t even drink coffee. (laughs) I was just so naïve, really. Untutored. But I liked my classes, except I had a class from a guy that was an anti-Semite, and his name was Enogh Khrae. FERNHEIMER: Enogh, how do you spell that? LEVY: E-N-O-G-H, Enogh. FERNHEIMER: And Khrae? LEVY: And it looked to me like it was enough. (laughter) But he--Khrae, K-H-R-A-E, and it had to be a German name or some Eastern European name. But he went out of his way not to give me good grades, and I always made good grades. And I was so ashamed for--' ; cause our parents got our grades. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: And I felt like I don' ; t want my mom to see I got a B-! FERNHEIMER: What did he teach? LEVY: European history. And I' ; d never deserved a B-. I deserved an A or even A- if you wanted to really--and I typed every paper, and I made very good grades on the tests. He didn' ; t like the way I expressed myself in discussing, uh, certain periods. That--that was his reason, ' ; cause I went into him, I didn' ; t understand why I got a B-. FERNHEIMER: So, you went to talk to him in office hours? LEVY: Oh, yeah, yeah. But I was also not happy to go talk to him, because he scheduled a test on Yom Kippur and would not let me make it up. FERNHEIMER: Mmm. LEVY: See, out--that would never happen now, be--but in that time, I was seventeen. FERNHEIMER: Were there other experiences of anti-Semitism that you had on campus? LEVY: No, mm-mm. He was it, and he just--it--even in discussing a period of history, he always brought up the Jews. The Jews were the ones that brought plague, and that' ; s not true, to Europe. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. LEVY: The Jews brought it. And that wasn' ; t true. FERNHEIMER: Mm. LEVY: And I never said anything, because I was afraid of him. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. LEVY: He' ; d--he--he wasn' ; t open to real talking--I mean, some of the professors, you could talk to them like a person, and they were good. Anyway, that' ; s Enogh Khrae. FERNHEIMER: Enogh Krae, European history. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell us a little bit about your social life as a student? Were you involved with the Hillel or--you mentioned this-- LEVY: You mean hear? FERNHEIMER: At UK. Was there-- LEVY: My social life was trying to get one of the ZBT guys to date me because Erle had a car, and you could ask Erle if we could go with him. I mean, I was asking for the dates. And, uh, Erle got to use his Uncle Sidney' ; s car because he babysat their children. So, I always-- FERNHEIMER: What kind of car was it? LEVY: It was a two-door blue something--I don' ; t know what kind of car it was, but there was--back seat and a front seat. And he would be in the front with Freddy the Body or Dot Whitehead. That was another one. She had this long, silky, gorgeous, blonde, straight, silky--I mean, it was, like--and I had crunched up--I mean, it was--uch. FERNHEIMER: Curly? LEVY: Wasn' ; t curly. It was just bunchy. It was--you couldn' ; t do anything with it anyway. But I ' ; d--I used to do bad things to--I did, I-- FERNHEIMER: Like what? LEVY: Oh, God. Uh, back then, they used to have, like, a fraternity dance and dinner, and they would have place cards. Everybody--and I would change the place cards. I would go early and change ' ; em, so-- FERNHEIMER: And what would you change them from and to? LEVY: I would put the girls that I didn' ; t want Erle to be around at another table, and I would put me right next to Erle. Or across from Erle. FERNHEIMER: And was he on to you? Did he-- LEVY: He had no clue. (laughter) Poor thing. FERNHEIMER: And how long did this go on before-- LEVY: Almost two years. About a year and seven months or so, something like that. FERNHEIMER: And when did things change? How did they change? LEVY: They changed because I was very bad. FERNHEIMER: What now? LEVY: I used to hang around the fraternity house. FERNHEIMER: And it was located where? Where was the fraternity house? LEVY: State Street. FERNHEIMER: Okay, State Street and--do you know? State Street, where--on State Street? LEVY: On State Street, at the university. I don' ; t--I mean, I just knew that that--and he didn' ; t live there, but he spent a lot of time at the house, so--now, I don' ; t think any of that ever did me any good. I think, little by little, Erle came--I had several things good about me. Number one, I was Jewish. And number two, he could have a conversation--he and I could talk about--not necessarily about us or anything. We could talk about other things outside of fraternity or the university, or we could talk about world things and about Eleanor Roosevelt and things. I could do that. And some of the girls just--I don' ; t know if they didn' ; t care or they were too stupid or what. But, like, Freddy the Body, who I really despised--I would have paid somebody to break her leg. I would' ; ve, I--the thing of it is, I know a guy now--(laughs)--or he' ; s probably not--wouldn' ; t do it now ' ; cause he' ; s much older. But twenty years ago, I knew a guy in the construction business--(laughter)--that would break somebody' ; s leg for twenty bucks. And he' ; d--actually did that. I never reported him, but I thought how can you break somebody' ; s leg? How do you do that? He said, " ; Sometimes push ' ; em down some steps." ; And I said, " ; Well, what if they don' ; t break their leg?" ; " ; Well, sometimes they break other things, but it' ; s a broken bone. What do you want?" ; I--what do I want? Go someplace else. So, I don' ; t know where he is now. His name was Lannie Spears and he was in construction. That' ; s what--Erle was a builder for a lot of years. And that' ; s what we did. It was a weird time. So-- FERNHEIMER: So, it took you two years, but finally, you-- LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: You and Erle ended up together. LEVY: We did. FERNHEIMER: And so-- LEVY: And we actually would go out--we--there would be a group of us, like, three or four of us, five of us, and we would be in a group. And most of the time, if I could arrange it--which I could, most of the time--I might be with another guy, but during the evening, I would be with Erle. And I didn' ; t care about the other guy. That' ; s, uh, that' ; s mean to do that. That' ; s mean. I was mean. But I got Erle. FERNHEIMER: So, was that common, to have these kind of group dates? LEVY: Yeah, group--you know, you--we would be in a group, and then for certain things we had a date. And I would-- FERNHEIMER: Like a dance or something like that? LEVY: Yeah. I would find out whether Erle had his uncle' ; s car or not, and I found that out by going different ways to find out. FERNHEIMER: Can you give me an example? LEVY: Well, Erle would--would--he would babysit for his Uncle Sidney and Aunt Zelda, and then he would get to use that car for so many hours that he babysat on. So, he would be telling his best friends at the fraternity--Marty, who--Solomon, who still lives here. Do you know him? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm, yes. LEVY: Okay, so he was one of Erle' ; s best friends, and he' ; s still a good friend. And Stuart Yussman, from Louisville. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell his last name? Stuart? LEVY: Y-U-S-S-M-A-N. FERNHEIMER: From Louisville? LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: And he was at UK at the time? LEVY: Yeah, and he was, uh, in law school, and he later became a lawyer. FERNHEIMER: Was he in ZBT, as well? LEVY: Yes, yeah. FERNHEIMER: How many brothers were there? Are--do you remember? LEVY: Probab--I don' ; t know, we' ; ll have to ask Erle. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: But I know he had some very good friends at the fraternity who actually are still good friends. Gene Dubow. So, Gene comes to Lexington from time to time, stays with us. His wife has Alzheimer' ; s. They had to sell their house, and they just moved. Oh, it' ; s probably been--maybe it' ; s been a year or less. Moved into, like, assisted living where she could have somebody with her. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: She can' ; t be left alone, because she doesn' ; t really know what she' ; s doing most of the time. That' ; s so sad. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: It is so, so sad. And he' ; s such a good guy. FERNHEIMER: He is. LEVY: Just -- FERNHEIMER: He--so, it was Gene and Marty Solomon and-- LEVY: Stuart Yussman. FERNHEIMER: Stuart Yussman and-- LEVY: Teddy Breg. FERNHEIMER: Teddy Breg? And where' ; s--where was Ted-- LEVY: He was from-- FERNHEIMER: B-R-E-G-T? LEVY: Just one G, B-R-E-G. He was from New York, and he wasn' ; t from Brooklyn--I' ; m trying to remember. He was from an area where there' ; s, like, a beach and--I can' ; t remember that. Erle knows all this. He should be here. FERNHEIMER: He' ; s got his own interview coming, don' ; t you worry about him. LEVY: ' ; Cause he' ; s just a good guy. FERNHEIMER: So--so, you would go out in these group dates with other people. LEVY: But then--but then little by little, we came to spend more time together, just the two of us. And we really enjoyed being together. We still enjoy being together. We don' ; t have our--we do not have a lot of time together, the two of us, because he works every day. And the nice thing is, he comes home and he' ; s so happy to get home and I' ; m so happy to see him. And it' ; s nice. He' ; s--he doesn' ; t play golf. He' ; s got--he still makes plans for expanding--and over the years, we have set--we have the big store in Lexington, then we have the store in Georgetown, a store in Frankfort, a store in Versailles. FERNHEIMER: And for the interview purpose, can you tell me the name of the stores? LEVY: Kentucky Lighting. Kentucky Lighting and Supply. And he has expanded the business so much from the time he took over, which was in the ' ; 80s. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Late ' ; 80s. ' ; Cause we were in construction. We had, in the Jimmy Carter years--and I should say pui, pui, pui when I say Jimmy Carter--what a lousy president. Anyway, see, he still has things to say about Israel, Jimmy Carter. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, he published that book. But I want to--tell me a little bit more--I want to stay in--at your--reminiscing back about your college days with Erle. Um, I remember you telling me a story about a certain park bench that you used to wait on. I want-- LEVY: It was not a park bench. It' ; s a little--it' ; s still there. FERNHEIMER: Tell me-- LEVY: A little bench, a stone bench. FERNHEIMER: Where is it? LEVY: It was--I don' ; t know where it is now, because I don' ; t know the university, but it was from the student union, from the--from the business school, um, place, he would come out of there. He would have to go to the student union for lunch. I was across campus, on the third floor of the fine arts building, painting. So, I had to come--run down three flights of steps and run across campus to be sitting on that bench when he got out of class and would be walking by that bench to go to the student union to have lunch. FERNHEIMER: How often did you do that? LEVY: Every fucking day. Excuse me. FERNHEIMER: For how long? LEVY: For him to walk by. That was all it was for. FERNHEIMER: And did-- LEVY: And on a really good day, he would say, " ; Hi." ; Now, on a great day, he would say, " ; Hi. Sara?" ; " ; Yeah, Sara." ; And I would be sitting there like I was reading, but what I was doing was catching my breath because I ran like a lunatic. (panting) (laughter) That' ; s okay. FERNHEIMER: And you did this for months before-- LEVY: I did this for months and months and months and months, waiting. And he did do all the things I wanted him to do, was--some days he would say, " ; Want to come have lunch with us? Why don' ; t you come and have lunch with us?" ; That was, like, oh, I' ; m in heaven. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: That was great. Most days, he didn' ; t even notice me. Then, when he did start noticing me, he couldn' ; t think of what my name was. And then when he was able to remember my name, because I did tell him, like, seventeen hundred times, then he started kind of looking for me, which I thought was great. I knew he was looking for me. Or maybe I decided I wanted him to be looking for me. And, uh, little by little, he finally was almost every day saying, " ; Come on, we' ; re going to have lunch. Come on." ; And I would go. FERNHEIMER: Who else was there at lunch? Was it the same fraternity brothers? Or who--who would go? LEVY: It was whoever was in class with him, or somebody that--that came to meet him, because they--everybody got out at the same time. Um, it was--just be three or four people. And if he said come on, I did. Was so happy to do it! So, that went on, and then--and I--I remember he gave me his pin. We--he started saying, " ; Why don' ; t we go to a movie?" ; And I said, a lot of times, have you seen so-and-so? And he would say, " ; No." ; And I would say, " ; Well, we should do that, we should go see it." ; High Noon was when he gave me his pin. High Noon. You wouldn' ; t remember that. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s the name of the movie? LEVY: The--yeah, name of the movie. So, that was a great time. And then is when I felt safe. I knew I had him. FERNHEIMER: And how long between that and when you got engaged? LEVY: Two months. FERNHEIMER: And this was in ' ; 53-4? LEVY: Fifty-four. FERNHEIMER: And did you get married? LEVY: The end of ' ; 54. FERNHEIMER: And when did you get married? LEVY: January 29th, ' ; 55. FERNHEIMER: And you' ; ve been married since? LEVY: Well, you know, he' ; s--he--he said to me, " ; How long do you think we should be engaged?" ; And his Uncle Sidney had Phillip Gaul' ; s pawn shop, and they had jewelry. FERNHEIMER: And that was downtown? LEVY: It was on Upper Street. It was Phillip Gaul and Son. Erle' ; s grandfather was Phillip Gaul. Our son is Phillip Gaul Levy. And our baby boy, Phillip, was--had such love and respect for his great-grandfather, Phillip Gaul--I mean, he just--he had, in his bedroom, Phillip Gaul' ; s hat, a cane that he used one time when he had a bad foot. I think he had gout or something. Um, he had it in one part of the--he had a billfold that his great-grandfather threw out. He found it and he thought it shouldn' ; t be in the garbage, I' ; m going to take it home. So, he brought it home. He' ; d had, like, a little shrine. And they had a really close relationship, which was wonderful for him, for our son to have, this terrific, terrific relationship. And the funny thing is, Phillip Gaul didn' ; t talk very much. But when he talked, you listened. And I remember I was pregnant with our fourth child, and I had taken Mimi to the grocery, Phillip' ; s--uh, Erle' ; s grandmother, Mimi. And brought her home, and I sat on the swing with Phillip Gaul. With Pop. We called him Pop. And he said to me, " ; How," ; you know, " ; how do you feel?" ; And I said, " ; I feel fine, great." ; And we just sat there. He didn' ; t talk. And finally, he said, " ; If this should be a boy, it wouldn' ; t hoit me none, you should name him after me. Wouldn' ; t hoit!" ; We hadn' ; t thought about that. And I said, " ; You know, we' ; ll talk about that." ; And we did--that' ; s what we did. We named him Phillip Gaul, and he and Phillip Gaul, literally joined at the hip. FERNHEIMER: Oh, that' ; s-- LEVY: And I don' ; t know why. Our Phillip worshipped him. Maybe because he was named after him. And Phillip Gaul would talk to our Phillip. Like, my father would talk to our Phillip, and he was just a little kid! But they talked. I loved that. Always thought that was great. FERNHEIMER: That is great. LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s a--that' ; s a really sweet story. Can you tell me again about when you were engaged or when you were talking about how--you had started to tell a story about deciding on the timeframe for being engaged. LEVY: Well-- FERNHEIMER: How did you make the decision? You--then you started to-- LEVY: Well, we, um, we got engaged in November. And Erle was going to graduate in January-- FERNHEIMER: --in ' ; 54-- LEVY: --from college. And he wanted to get married as soon as he finished college. He was willing to just stay engaged, and Uncle Sydney got him a pretty diamond. I had a beautiful engagement ring, which Lesley Levy flushed down the toilet along with his master keys to a whole subdivision of houses. It was so horrendous that she flashed the master keys. You know, you can buy another ring. They were gone! And I thought, well, they' ; re somewhere--we can take it apart. I called a plumber. They were gone. Everything was all gone. The ring was gone, the keys were in one big thing, they were gone. Okay. I bring up the ring every now and then just to aggravate her. But she doesn' ; t even remember because she was just a toddler. (laughter) So, I like--you have to have something, leverage. Anyway, so Erle and I--I' ; ll tell you how I actually realized he does want to get married. We had been to a movie, High Noon, and we were walking down--there used to be a Stuart department store and a Wolfwhile' ; s downtown. And we were walking to the car, and we were by ourselves. It was just the two of us, and the movie had Gary Cooper--was the sheriff. So, walking by Stuart' ; s, there--one of their window displays was lingerie. Nightgowns and peignoirs, and Erle looked at a nightgown and he said, " ; Boy, that would really look good on you." ; And I almost fainted. (laughter) I thought--" ; Well, you think you' ; re going to see me in something like that?" ; And he said, " ; Well, when we get married." ; And I thought, oh, he just proposed. But he really didn' ; t propose. He was just talking about someday. So, it just so happened that was right around the--that was when we did engaged, and two months later, we got married. So, he was right. He knew--he just knew what we were going to be doing. FERNHEIMER: So-- LEVY: And we' ; ve always been happy! FERNHEIMER: And once--how would you say--so, it sounds like your time at UK had a pretty--in--big impact on your life, uh, to-- LEVY: Coming to UK--I came to get him. That' ; s the reason I came to UK. FERNHEIMER: And--and did you end up graduating? Or did you-- LEVY: I did not graduate. I couldn' ; t care less, I really couldn' ; t. But I was always a good student. FERNHEIMER: So-- LEVY: So, I always made good grades. FERNHEIMER: So, can you tell me, I guess, a little bit about how that time at U.K. impacted your Jewish identity? LEVY: There was a Hillel, and I was active in Hillel. FERNHEIMER: How many students went to the events at Hillel? LEVY: I guess it just depended on--there were enough to feel like you had a group of friends, because there was also a Jewish fraternity, ZBT, and there was a Jewish sorority, AE [Alpha Epsilon] Phi or AE Pi. Something like that. FERNHEIMER: Was it Phi Sigma Sigma? LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: It wasn' ; t. LEVY: No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. A Phi? LEVY: It was AE Pi or Phi, I don' ; t remember which one, because I did join. FERNHEIMER: Oh, you did join. LEVY: And then I left it, because it was just ridiculous. FERNHEIMER: How many young women were involved when you were there? LEVY: There were probably nine--eight or nine. FERNHEIMER: Did-- LEVY: That' ; s not much. Or ten, maybe, I don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: Was your-- LEVY: But I was one of the original founders, and then I realized--I thought what we should be doing as a sorority was--why are we here? Not just to have meetings and eat cookies and Kool-Aid or whatever and talk about who' ; s dating who. That' ; s not--that' ; s not why we' ; re here. We need to have some project, perhaps. Something that we can put our energies into to help other people. There are students here who could use help, whether it' ; s tutoring help, maybe financial help, maybe even taking them shopping, or maybe girls here that have a baby that are still trying to go to school. Maybe we can be an influence of some kind to help. Well, that never came around, and I quit. FERNHEIMER: How--so, you--how long were you involved, would you say? You' ; re one of the founders, but then, six months-- LEVY: But then they--they didn' ; t do anything. They didn' ; t help anybody. They didn' ; t make any plans to help anybody. They sat around and talked about who' ; s dating who and, " ; Who do you want to date?" ; " ; Oh, I' ; d just give anything if he would ask me someplace." ; " ; Well, why don' ; t you ask him?" ; " ; I would be afraid of asking." ; Are you going to do something for somebody? What are you going to do, just talk about who you' ; re dating or talk about where you' ; re going or talk about sex? Is that what you want to do? That' ; s not what I want to do. FERNHEIMER: How--do you remember any of the other girls who were involved? LEVY: Lillian Ruben. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: From Louisville. Um, Shirley Ruby was my sister' ; s age, and she was still part of this sorority. Or she came back to the sorority because she had not graduated when I was a freshman. She was still in school and-- FERNHEIMER: --was-- LEVY: --a really good woman, really nice person. FERNHEIMER: Was your sister involved? Sonia? Was Sonia part of the sorority? LEVY: Sonia--no. Sonia--no, Sonia was not part of the sorority. And I think she must have already graduated, or was going to graduate that year. FERNHEIMER: So, it started the year you started college, in 1953? AE Phi or AE Pi? LEVY: No, I think it was, like, 1954, maybe. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And they did--again, I left. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: I mean, I was there almost a year. Nothing was accomplished. I don' ; t see a point. And because I was very much in a situation where I was much--rather spend my time with Erle than sitting around with a bunch of girls who didn' ; t want to do anything but talk. They didn' ; t want to do anything. They didn' ; t want to help somebody, they--I mean, there were so many things that you could do on campus to be involved in doing something productive. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: That sounds really terrible for me to talk that way, but I felt, uh, so much energy was wasted. FERNHEIMER: Did they interact with ZBT? That sorority? LEVY: This--not as a sorority that I remember. I don' ; t remember. I remember I had good friends at ZBT be--that--because they were Erle' ; s good friends. FERNHEIMER: But the sorority and ZBT didn' ; t-- LEVY: I don' ; t--I don' ; t think so. And once I-- FERNHEIMER: --and did--did-- LEVY: --realized the sorority was going nowhere--I mean, it just-- FERNHEIMER: Wasn' ; t what you were interested in. LEVY: It wasn' ; t doing anything. Nothing. FERNHEIMER: Did--I' ; m sorry to keep hammering on this, but I--I' ; m curious, ' ; cause this is the first I' ; ve heard of this particular sorority. Did--did they interact with the sororities on campus? LEVY: Not that I ever knew, but I' ; m telling you, I was-- FERNHEIMER: You weren' ; t involved that long. LEVY: I was involved for a goodly period, probably close to a year. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And that' ; s why I left, because I felt like what am I doing with my time? They' ; re doing nothing! FERNHEIMER: Are--are any of these other women that you mention who were part of the sorority as well, Shirley and Lillian, were they--are they still living? Are they still in town or-- LEVY: --um-- FERNHEIMER: --or are you even still in touch? LEVY: Well, Shirley was--there was another girl, Sandy Shaiken. FERNHEIMER: Shenken? LEVY: Shaiken, S-H-A-I-K-E-N or I-N. And she came from a large family. She had a brother Arnold and--but--and they were from Greensburg or Greensville, Kentucky, just a really tiny little town. And-- FERNHEIMER: What did they-- LEVY: --she and my sister were good friends, and she became a good friend to me. And she was really a good person. She died. And Shirley Ruby also became a good friend. And I don' ; t know if she' ; s still alive or not. You know, this is strange for me to talk about this, because these women are a year or two older than me, and I' ; m eighty. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: And, um, I mean, I really do feel lucky to live to be eighty, ' ; cause some of my friends are dead. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: My best friend died October 28th. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m so sorry. LEVY: Harriet Cooper. FERNHEIMER: I know. It was a tremendous loss to the community. LEVY: Oh, God. FERNHEIMER: Tremendous. LEVY: Yeah. Anyway-- FERNHEIMER: So, aside from--it sounds like that was a small--a pretty small group of women who were involved in that sorority, and ZBT was pretty active. Is there any other things that you can remember from social life on campus? Did you ever get off campus? What--what kinds of things brought you-- LEVY: --um-- FERNHEIMER: --off campus? LEVY: Erle' ; s--when Erle' ; s grandmother, Rose Gaul, uh, when Erle and I--we must have already been pinned. Not engaged yet. Because I met his grandmother, and that was, like, it. That' ; s it. His mother didn' ; t cook, and that was--very strange thing to me that your mother doesn' ; t cook. What do you mean she doesn' ; t cook? They had a cook. And I thought that was strange, but that' ; s okay. It' ; s how you grow up. But here' ; s a woman who never cooked. And even after her children left her house, she never cooked. And it didn' ; t make any difference about Erle' ; s sister Bobbi or about Erle' ; s father, Hyman--that they--dinner was at this time, which is when Erle' ; s mother wanted dinner to be. And the cook was there, Mary. And she made all kinds of stuff. And, um, I had never been around anybody that had a cook. I thought that was really neat that she didn' ; t have to cook. But dinner was that time. If Hyman had--was showing property or anything, it was too bad. Dinner was at that time--that they would go ahead and eat. And I can' ; t--could not imagine--how can you do that? FERNHEIMER: It sounds like, for you, that dinnertime was family time. And so-- LEVY: Well, it was--I don' ; t know what it was. I know they seemed to eat very fast, because I remember one of the first times I ever ate with Pauline, Erle' ; s mother, and Erle and Bobbi, and Hyman wasn' ; t there, they went ahead and ate anyway. And I had not finished, but my plate was taken. They--everybody was through, and they thought that you' ; re done. So, it was gone. And I was, like, okey-doke, I can handle this. (laughter) But I never saw anything like that, either. I saw a lot of things that I wasn' ; t used to. But everybody does--you are--you--you become accustomed to your roots, to what your family does. And when you hit somebody else' ; s family and they' ; re totally different, it' ; s different. But that' ; s okay. FERNHEIMER: Could you--yeah, that' ; s-- LEVY: And you want to get back to-- FERNHEIMER: I' ; m going to ask you some more questions about the family that you and Erle built together, but before I do that and jump ahead to that, I want to ask a couple more questions about your life at--as a student at UK. Can you--can you give me a kind of general impression of Jewish life on campus at that time? LEVY: Well, since I came from Williamson, West Virginia, there was a very large Jewish community here. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And how many people-- LEVY: In my mind. FERNHEIMER: How many people would you say? LEVY: Um, on campus? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Well, there were a lot of people that--not a lot, but there were some people that I knew--we knew were Jewish, but had--didn' ; t do anything with anything Jewish. Nothing. FERNHEIMER: So, they weren' ; t involved with Hillel and they weren' ; t-- LEVY: So, they were Jewish but they didn' ; t come with any of us. Uh, so there was probably ten or twelve that, uh, hung out pretty much together. FERNHEIMER: And this was the group at ZBT? They also went to Hillel or they-- LEVY: Um-hm. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: Yeah. Hillel--Hillel was good. Hillel, we had a big Hillel. FERNHEIMER: Where did--did Hill-- LEVY: And we met at the fraternity house many times for Hillel. FERNHEIMER: Did you-- LEVY: We also met at the temple. Not the synagogue, the temple. And the rabbi at the temple was--his name was Moe Davis when I was there. He was fun, a good--he was a good rabbi. He was fun. I grew up in a Reform temple, and that was a Reform temple. FERNHEIMER: So, you felt comfortable there. LEVY: I would' ; ve felt comfortable anywhere with Jews. It wouldn' ; t make any difference. Because, in Williamson, um, there was one family that had--that did keep kosher, that had kosher meat sent in, frozen, to them from somewhere. I don' ; t know where they got it from. FERNHEIMER: This is in the days well before the internet, so they were having it sent from pretty far away. LEVY: It would have had to come from Cincinnati or Huntington or Charleston, something like that. FERNHEIMER: Huh. Um, so what advice would you give to the Jewish students enrolled at UK today? LEVY: I don' ; t know what the enrollment of Jewish students now. How--how many Jews are here? FERNHEIMER: Probably pretty close to the number of Jews when you were here is my guess. LEVY: Really? FERNHEIMER: We don' ; t have a way of counting, but--legally, we can' ; t ask, um-- LEVY: Right. And the--that was also the case, I think, when I was here. I think that it was not on the application. Your religion was not on the application. And I--we knew that there were Jewish students that were not involved or associated with anything Jewish. We knew that. But the ones that were were good people. I mean, they seemed to be. I' ; m sure some of them weren' ; t. They were--some of--you know, there' ; s always going to be schnorrers and some--uh, you know, there' ; s going to be a--nerds and different people that you don' ; t like. You don' ; t have to love everybody, but-- FERNHEIMER: You' ; ve used a lot of Yiddish in our conversation today. Did your family--did your father speak Yiddish at home? Or did you-- LEVY: --um-- FERNHEIMER: --and Erle ever speak-- LEVY: They spoke some Yiddish, but my mother did not grow up in a Jewish home. FERNHEIMER: Right. LEVY: So-- FERNHEIMER: Did she learn from your dad? Or he--did it stop with him? LEVY: No, he--they' ; d--they spoke some Yiddish, and when Daddy was with other people in our congregation that spoke Yiddish, they would speak some Yiddish. I didn' ; t understand--do you know Rafi Finkel? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Okay, so he' ; s great with Yiddish. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, he teaches it here-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --at the university-- LEVY: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --now and again. LEVY: I just adore him. He, uh, at schul one day--just recently, ' ; cause Erle just brought it home--Rafi gives Erle a thing--movie thing of Gunga Din. FERNHEIMER: Gunga Din? LEVY: Gunga Din. FERNHEIMER: Tell me a little bit more about what is Gunga Din? I' ; m not familiar. LEVY: Well, it' ; s--it' ; s about--um, I don' ; t think it was about India, but I think in that part of the world, maybe in Indonesia-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- LEVY: --and it was a story, and I have no idea what it was about. But I remember I saw the movie, and here Erle came home with this and says, " ; Rafi gave me this, he wants us to watch it." ; Well, Rafi just made up, " ; I want you to watch it." ; He was trying to--he must have--going to be--get rid of that, and he said, " ; I' ; m going to give it to Erle." ; He gave it to Erle. (laughter) Rafi is Rafi. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Well, so, Rafi you know from your involvement with the Jewish community here in Lexington. Can you tell me a little bit more about your life with Erle and your life here in Lexington and, uh, how--what you did to become involved with the Jewish community here? LEVY: Well, here' ; s the thing, and Leon Cooper can tell you much more about that than I can, ' ; cause Leon swears that we did not appear in the Jewish community until our children were grown and gone to college, that nobody knew we existed. FERNHEIMER: Do you agree with him? LEVY: I had very little time-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- LEVY: --to become active in anything. And I--I know Harriet and Leon were very active in the synagogue with children, and I was not. But we had four kids very close, and they were--oh, I mean, two of them were in swimming, competitive swimming. Laura was in ballet and regular dancing, and all kinds of dancing. Lisa was a cheerleader. And Phillip worked and was a swimmer. Again, competitive swimming. So, we went to a lot of swim meets. We were always involved with whatever they did. I would go--we would go to--eighth grade ball game, ' ; cause Lisa was a cheerleader. I wouldn' ; t even know what they' ; re playing, but I--we would watch her be a cheerleader, and that was good. But we did not want her to be a cheerleader beyond one year. I did not want her-- FERNHEIMER: --mm-- LEVY: --to be beyond that, because I started hearing stories that the cheerleaders, as they got older, got really loose with the teams, with the-- FERNHEIMER: With the young men. LEVY: And what do you mean loose? Well, they would become--so, I' ; m supposed to put up with that kind of crap? No. So, her cheerleading days ended when she didn' ; t want them to end, but I did. And--and I was right. FERNHEIMER: So, it sounds like you were more involved, uh, outside of the community with your kids, um, and their activities during that time. LEVY: I was not--uh, and Leon said nobody even knew we existed. They knew Erle was here somewhere, but they didn' ; t know where, and-- FERNHEIMER: So, can you tell me about your Jewish life during that time? Did you guys--what did you do to keep-- LEVY: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --traditions that--did you send the kids to Sunday school? LEVY: --we belonged to the temple and the schul. We belonged to the-- FERNHEIMER: Okay, so both communities. LEVY: When Laura was ready for Sunday school, I would have sent her to the schul had there been a better rabbi. FERNHEIMER: Who was rabbi at the time, if-- LEVY: The rabbi at the schul--this is terrible, because I don' ; t even remember his name. But I remember him. He did not like children. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And I was not sending my children where a rabbi did not like children. And little did I know--(laughs)--that while they were at Sunday school at the temple--' ; cause this is a lot of years. There were four children. The rabbi at the--at the temple didn' ; t much like children, either. FERNHEIMER: Oh! LEVY: And I taught Sunday school at the temple. FERNHEIMER: Oh, you did? LEVY: I did. FERNHEIMER: What grade did you teach? And from when to when? LEVY: I taught, like, fifth grade or sixth grade, something like that. And, uh, I remember one of the best things we did, and I did it every year, was we had a whole section on Jewish humor. FERNHEIMER: Oh! LEVY: And that always was great. And we always had a show to illustrate different, um, periods. Because Jewish humor, much of it is, um, stuff you would cry about if you couldn' ; t laugh. Jewish humor. Like, I remember we were doing one of the presentations, and in the back of the room, we had one of the girls--" ; Is there a doctor in the house? Ah, help! We need a doctor!" ; And we had, like, nine guys get up and run over, and then we heard her say, " ; Oy, doctor! Have I got a girl for you!" ; (laughter) And it--this was on loudspeaker, so everybody thought that was great. (laughter) And that--I mean, that' ; s--so, we did a lot of Jewish humor. And then, we had a--ending presentation where we spoke about Jewish humor and why it is what it is, the--anyway. That was good. FERNHEIMER: Um-- LEVY: What else? I' ; m not rushing you, I' ; m just-- FERNHEIMER: No, no, I appreciate your frankness. Um, so, uh, can you tell me, um--uh, you mentioned the Coopers were part of your social network. Uh, the group of--Harriet being your best friend, and Leon talking about how you--they didn' ; t know you were in the community until after your kids, uh, grew up. LEVY: Well, Leon says nobody knew we existed because I wasn' ; t out doing anything. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: And that would have been the time that Harriet was really busy and involved with the schul. And I did teach Sunday school, but it was at the temple. And, uh, that was also the time when the rabbi at the temple--he and his wife, Alana-- FERNHEIMER: What was his name? Rabbi-- LEVY: His name--isn' ; t this terrible? ' ; Cause they had-- FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come to you. LEVY: I--no, but this is just ridiculous. But this is what happens. This is what' ; s happening to me. I' ; m forgetting names so easily-- FERNHEIMER: I am, too, but for-- LEVY: Not like-- FERNHEIMER: On the other end. (laughs) LEVY: Leffler. Rabbi Leffler. FERNHEIMER: Leffler. LEVY: And his wife' ; s name was Alana. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: So, they were very fond of, I guess, our kids, because they wanted to meet with me privately. Alana and the rabbi wanted to meet with me. So, what would you think if they said that? ' ; Cause I was teaching at Sunday school. I thought they wanted to talk to me about something I was teaching. Was teaching a lot of humor, in Europe and--anyway, what they wanted to talk to me about was--they didn' ; t want to hurt my feelings and all that stuff, but they felt that I was smothering my children. (laughter) And why was that? Because I always knew where they were. I always knew what they were doing or what they were supposed to be doing. And they knew that I checked up on ' ; em. So, they were fearful. That was what they--that I was smothering them and making them fearful. I said, " ; Well, what would you suggest?" ; " ; They need to--you need to back off from your demands, which is where will you be? If this is a party, is the mother or the father there? If they are not, you are not going to be there." ; I mean, there were things that I felt were right. So, they felt that I was just really making a terrible mistake. Maybe I was, I don' ; t know. You do the--you do what you think is the right thing to do. FERNHEIMER: How did that feel when they pulled you aside that way? What--was this-- LEVY: --I-- FERNHEIMER: --common for them to--to-- LEVY: Oh, they--they didn' ; t--they meant no harm. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: They meant no harm. They wanted to help me, because they truly felt that I was much too involved, too demanding on my children. Not demanding that they do or don' ; t do something, but demanding that I know where they were, who they were with, was one of the parents there? Anybody smoking there? ' ; Cause I could smell it on them. We didn' ; t smoke. I couldn' ; t smell it on my kids, but I could smell their clothes. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: If they had been in a room where two or three kids were smoking, it was on their clothes. Anyway, that' ; s neither here nor there. But the--the rabbi and Alana very nicely told me I should back off. FERNHEIMER: Would--would you say that you had--um, I guess what--what is your kind of most vivid memory of Jewish life during that time when your kids-- LEVY: when-- FERNHEIMER: --were growing up? LEVY: I don' ; t think that we had a--we had had a Jewish life in that we did go to services. Not every Friday night, but some Friday nights during--on the holidays, we would go to the temple and the schul, because we belonged in both. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: I didn' ; t want the children to get used to just the temple. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: I wanted them to know that they were Jews here, they were Jews there. We are Jews wherever. We' ; re Jews. And different ways of doing things, you--you get used to--you understand this and this. And, um-- FERNHEIMER: Were there- LEVY: --I cannot say that we were truly real involved, because we were busy with the kids. Everybody did different things. And we were very involved with the kids. FERNHEIMER: Did they--did they become bar and bat mitzvah-- LEVY: Yes. FERNHEIMER: Uh, children? LEVY: And confirmed at the temple. FERNHEIMER: And did you all experience any, uh, anti-Semitism during that time? LEVY: I did what? FERNHEIMER: Did you have any experiences with anti-Semitism here in Lexington? LEVY: Um, there was some anti-Semitism. Mm, I' ; m trying to remember why, ' ; cause I don' ; t remember what--oh, maybe be--they--there was, um, some laws passed about discrimination or something. FERNHEIMER: Hmm, I don' ; t know. LEVY: I don' ; t remember. But I remember it was something, and I remember getting a phone call or--that was repeated several times, where I--the phone would ring, I would pick it up, and there would be nothing. Initially it was--there would be, like, heavy breathing, and I would hang up. If they didn' ; t say something, I would hang up. Didn' ; t think anything of it. But that continued for several months, where nobody would say anything. And then somebody--and it--I don' ; t know if it was a boy, a man, or a woman with a low voice--was always the same person--would talk about, " ; We don' ; t need so many Jews on this--neighborhood, in this school. We don' ; t need all you people. You all should be somewhere else, separate from us." ; And this was a sincere--and they never said dirty Jew, they never said anything like that. Just said, " ; You all shouldn' ; t be with us." ; FERNHEIMER: And this was on the phone, like-- LEVY: On the phone. FERNHEIMER: --kind of a crank call situation. LEVY: And it was-- FERNHEIMER: And this was in-- LEVY: Same person. Same person. FERNHEIMER: What year would you say that was? LEVY: Our kids, some of them were at Breckinridge Elementary School. So, this was early. So, none of them would be in high school. They would have been in elementary school. And maybe Laura, our older child, could have been in seventh grade, which would have been a different building. It--she would have been in Morton Junior High. FERNHEIMER: And so, is this in the ' ; 60s or the ' ; 70s? What--what years would you say? LEVY: Uh, it would have been in the ' ; 60s. FERNHEIMER: So-- LEVY: Late ' ; 60s. Mid- to late ' ; 60s. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. And you think it was correlated with some anti-discrimination laws at the time, that-- LEVY: Maybe. I don' ; t know. I just don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: So, how would you say things have changed in the Jewish community here in Lexington during the period of time that you' ; ve been here? LEVY: Um, it' ; s prob--we have, um--I think the university is a significant things of the Jewish community in Lexington, altogether. Because there are so many people from the university that come here for--few, couple years, to--couple, three years, and then some of them move on. But a significant number stay here, which is great. Really great. So, they belong both to temple and to schul. And I don' ; t know how much the congregations have grown. Neither one is huge. Neither one is very large, and I don' ; t even know what the Jewish community numbers are here-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- LEVY: --because, you know, for everybody that' ; s a member of temple or schul, there' ; s two or three people who are Jewish here who are not affiliated. And that' ; s fine. You know, if you had no reason to feel affiliated, or if you don' ; t have children and you' ; re not interested in other--we tried real hard to get a Jewish community center, Erle and I, but we couldn' ; t get anybody willing to put up any money. FERNHEIMER: When did you try to do that? LEVY: Um, when our kids were in middle school and high school, we felt that that would be a really good thing and we could do it and--we--we had it all figured out, who would give what. Like, you--I was counting other people' ; s money--(laughter)--which is brilliant. Brilliant. FERNHEIMER: This was what, in the early ' ; 70s? LEVY: Um, late ' ; 60s and early ' ; 70s, yeah. But that went nowhere. Again, nobody was willing to really do anything. FERNHEIMER: And why did you think a Jewish community center would be so great? LEVY: I thought if--if we talked it up and got some people interested--and they would work with us getting other people interested. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: Sort of like a pyramid scheme--(laughter)--you know? So, that didn' ; t happen. I could get really excited about it and really interested in it and-- FERNHEIMER: But why? Why--why that kind of--this particular type of Jewish institutional life? What did you think that that offered? LEVY: I thought it--like, a Jewish center, because we had the separation and there' ; s still a separation between the schul kids and the temple kids. And they try, you know, to have certain things maybe together, but there' ; s still that separation. There is that, like, you' ; re over there, we' ; re over here. Yeah, we get together sometimes, we do things together, but we don' ; t really do things together. We just do it ' ; cause we' ; re supposed to. I just thought there was maybe a way to have one group that everybody would feel comfortable with. But it-- FERNHEIMER: So, to try to unify the Jewish community here, was that kind of your vision? LEVY: That--uh, that was my feeling, and a couple other people had the same feeling, that it could be just like a Jewish center. And, uh, we had a couple people that would have put a little bit of money into it. But we--we could put a significant amount of money into it, and then we would go to people like Warren Rosenthal and people that had money that would be willing to do this for the younger Jewish community, the--the younger--the mid- to older children and the younger families, because we wanted to solidify--to make them feel like a part of something important. A Jewish--part of something Jewish besides the temple or the schul. This would encompass everybody, and that went nowhere. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. LEVY: And what were they arguing about? I mean, there was arguments going on, that if, uh, so-and-so' ; s going to be--if we' ; re going to have a Jewish center, are we going to have a kosher kitchen? FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. LEVY: Or not? Are we going to have a dairy kitchen and a meat kitchen? We don' ; t need a meat kitchen, I didn' ; t think. A dairy kitchen. And nobody should mind whether it' ; s kosher or not. Even if you don' ; t keep kosher, if we keep a kosher kitchen, who cares if--so long as you keep it kosher? Well, you can' ; t guarantee that it' ; s going to be kept kosher because-- FERNHEIMER: You would need a mashgiach. LEVY: People hide. And that wasn' ; t going to happen. I just thought you could be more trusting, but everybody said no. FERNHEIMER: So, that was--it is--it took a--was that six months, a year that you were talking about this or planning for it or-- LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. LEVY: But you do what you can do, can' ; t do any more than what you can do. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. How--how would you say that your Jewishness is different from or similar to that of your parents? And then, also, that of your children? LEVY: Say that again? I don' ; t know what you said. FERNHEIMER: How would you--how--how is your Jewishness, your relationship with your Jewishness, how is it similar to or different from that of your parents and similar to or different from that of your children? LEVY: My parents--my father was not religious, but he was Jewish. Very clearly a Jew. He didn' ; t care whether anybody was kosher or not. He cared most about my sister and I, Sonia and I. We were Daddy' ; s girls. But we were Mommy' ; s girls, too. It was just different. We could get anything we wanted out of Daddy. (laughter) We knew that and he knew that. So, it--it was--it was good. Our, um--we went to--Sonia and I--there was--where we grew up, in Williamson, there was just one temple. And that' ; s--is where we went to Sunday school and where we had Jewish things. Uh, sometimes holidays were held at temple, and it was a nice building. FERNHEIMER: Is it still there? LEVY: It' ; s still there, yeah. I' ; ve got a lot of pictures and written stuff I--you really need to look at, and maybe--I' ; ve got a copying machine at home. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: Yeah, my office is at home. (coughs) FERNHEIMER: So--so, for him, how it--for him, Jewishness--you said he just--he was Jewish. What does-- LEVY: He was Jewish and he--to talk to him, he would say that religion was not a big part of his life because his father was so rigid, so frum, that my father and his sister came over because his mother saved every penny to pay for them to come over steerage. And there was an Uncle Sam in Chicago that--they slept on his kitchen floor. Sophie and my dad. And--but as far as Jewish--I mean, stop and think about coming to West Virginia because there was supposedly big money in coal. But where were the Jews? The Jews are the ones that owned the stores. The Jews were the doctors, the dentists, the pharmacists sometimes. But the Jews were not the miners or the farmers or anything like that. So, my father did not feel religiously Jewish, but he was very Jewish. And I guess because my mother--and my mother was the one that insisted on converting-- FERNHEIMER: --huh-- LEVY: --because she knew that they would have children and she--they were going to be brought up Jewish. And her good friend was a Steckler, and Mrs. Steckler was very good to my mother. And her best--very best friend, Ruth Steckler, they--they really made her part of their family, so she was at their house for the Jewish holidays and for Chanukah. And she remembers bringing the--Ruth a Christmas present. And they were very, um, you know, " ; Thank you so much and thank you so much," ; but Ruth told her privately, " ; We don' ; t observe Christmas at all." ; And--and my mother--I remember her telling me that was when she realized why they didn' ; t have a Christmas tree. She thought maybe they didn' ; t have a Christmas tree ' ; cause they couldn' ; t afford it. She didn' ; t know-- FERNHEIMER: Hmm. LEVY: But then, Ruth told my mom, " ; We don' ; t observe Christmas." ; And my mom had trouble grasping that, because everybody observed--and from her family--her mother died when she--when my mother was ten, but then when her father remarried, he remarried an old biddy, and something happened with her and me. And my mother, very involved. And I remember this so clearly, it' ; s--' ; cause it scared the hell out of me. FERNHEIMER: What happened? LEVY: We were visiting her father who lived in West Williamson. So we had to drive, and her father had remarried a woman named Ella, who was old. Uh, I--to me, she was old. So, I was small, maybe three. And the reason I' ; m saying maybe three--because the dress I had on was yellow, and it had some lace on it, and it was so pretty. And Sonia had had it before me, so I couldn' ; t wait to get big enough to have that dress, and I had it. And we were visiting my mother' ; s father, and for some reason I was sitting on this old woman Ella' ; s lap. I' ; m sure she just picked me up and set me on a--but I remember I was sitting on her, and she made the statement that--with Sara having those blonde curls, and I had, like, finger curls or something--my hair was blonde. Not blonde blonde, but just quite light. " ; And with those blonde curls, nobody would know she was a Jew." ; She said that, loud. And my mother jumped up, grabbed my arm, and jerked me off of her lap. I was terrified. And I remember my mother bending over her saying, " ; You old bitch! You ever say anything like that again to me or my children, I' ; ll pull your hair out." ; And I remember my mom saying " ; pull your hair out," ; and I' ; m--she could do that. She could do that. It was scary. And we left. That was my-- FERNHEIMER: And did you ever go back? LEVY: I' ; m sure we did, but not when she was there. FERNHEIMER: So, it sounds like there were a couple of instances in your childhood. LEVY: Yeah, I remember-- FERNHEIMER: In Williamson. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Of anti-Semitism. Would you say that the relations between the Jewish shopkeepers and the--the Jews who did live there, what--what would you say about relations between Jews and non-Jews during that time? LEVY: If there was a problem, I didn' ; t know it, because all the stores were Jews. Not the groceries. There was an A& ; P and there was a Piggly Wiggly. Piggly Wiggly, that' ; s so cute. And that was the groceries, that was it. Um, we--I don' ; t ever remember seeing a black person in Williamson. And the only time I remember seeing a kid was--had to be in high school. Maybe I was a freshman or sophomore in high school. And when there was a football game or something, everybody went there and then there was always a dance after the game. And everybody would be there, and one of the players was black. And it was a football game, and one or two of the players was black, and only one showed up at the dance, and nobody was dancing with him. So, I went to dance with him, and I kept him with me. And he was a nice boy. He was very nice, very-- FERNHEIMER: How old were you at the time? LEVY: I was in tenth grade. I don' ; t know exactly how old I was. I was in tenth grade, ' ; cause I wasn' ; t allowed to go to the dances before tenth grade. FERNHEIMER: And what was his name, do you remember? LEVY: No. It was a football game. I don' ; t remember. FERNHEIMER: And what made you decide to dance with him? LEVY: Because everybody was dancing. And I was dating a Greek boy very steadily, I think, he was in grade, so--but I was after him in the tenth grade. Sam Kaparalis. Everybody was dancing but this young black guy. Nobody was dancing with him, nobody was talking to him. I mean, I felt like he probably was going to leave. And he wanted to dance, because he was--you know, he had rhythm. So, I ask him to dance, and we had a good time. He was a good dancer. FERNHEIMER: So, how would you say living here in Williamson--or living there in Williamson and living here in Lexington has affected the way that you think about yourself and your Judaism? LEVY: Um, I think while the children were little, there was very little--I mean, we would go to services for the high holidays. We would go a little bit to the temple, a little bit to the schul. And that was pretty much it, because I had four kids in--little over five years. There was not--I mean, we didn' ; t have money. Erle' ; s a builder, and we spent everything, but no matter how little money we had, we always saved--what I considered saving too much, because we' ; d--we--I don' ; t mean we went without food, but we did not have nice clothes or new cars or stuff like that. We didn' ; t have that. And I was fine with that, because I knew we were--had four children to put through college. And that was what was always on my mind, what are we going to do for money when they' ; re all going to college and just the close--we' ; ll have two or three in college at the same time. How are we going to do that? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. LEVY: So-- FERNHEIMER: And your children, what--how does their relationship to Jewishness or Jewish practice compare to yours or your family' ; s? LEVY: Theirs was extremely different. And two of our children are Orthodox. FERNHEIMER: And when did they become Orthodox? LEVY: Modern Orthodox. It' ; s--I think it' ; s incredibly wonderful that--of--I mean, these are all from the same gene pool, and it' ; s interesting--it' ; s very interesting--and you' ; ll see--to watch them grow, to see, before your eyes, their--they' ; re growing and their minds are also growing, and what they thought last year they wouldn' ; t even look at this year or this month or this week. Just very different watching--each one is different. They' ; re similar, but they' ; re very different people. And-- FERNHEIMER: So, they went from growing up in a Reform temple, going to Sunday school in the Reform temple-- LEVY: But also going to services-- FERNHEIMER: Services at the synagogue, right. LEVY: Schul, um-hm. At the synagogue. FERNHEIMER: And they became Modern Orthodox in adult life or-- LEVY: Lesley and Phillip have always been close, those two. So, they--Phillip worked one summer while he was in high school for B' ; nai B' ; rith in Washington. FERNHEIMER: Mm. LEVY: And Howard Core--do you know who I' ; m talking about? He is the head of AIPAC [The American Israel Public Affairs Committee]. FERNHEIMER: Mm, um-hm. LEVY: So, Howard and Phillip roomed together in the summer, became very close friends, and spent a lot of time together. So, Howard always had a place for Phillip to stay. He--because he always wanted Phillip to come in the summertime, and Phillip was earning money because he was working in Washington. He worked for the B' ; nai B' ; rith, he worked for different--uh, Gene Dubow got him a job one summer in Washington. And so, that was good. And as he--he--Lesley started working for AIPAC, and Phillip became more interested, and the two of them--Lesley decided--so many of her friends, the people she was close to were Orthodox. And she had an apartment in Washington she shared with a girl. And she decided she wanted to make it kosher. So, they had Yeshiva machers come in with a blowtorch and kashrut the kitchen. And we bought, you know, new dishes and silverware and the--two sets of this and two set--everything. And Phillip followed--the difference with Phillip was, when the girls were in middle school and high school, there were no Jewish girls. There were so few, like-- FERNHEIMER: Here in Lexington? LEVY: In Lexington. Connie Miller was one and Lesley tried real hard, because she really wanted a Jewish girlfriend, and there wasn' ; t any. And she came home from Connie Miller' ; s house one day and she said, " ; Well, I don' ; t think Connie and I have a lot to be friends about." ; And I said, " ; Oh, well, you know, why? But they' ; re nice people." ; And she said, " ; Well, Connie' ; s mother thinks she' ; s a cheerleader." ; (laughs) So, that was the end of that one. And that was true. Joanne--and to this day, Joanne is like a little cheerleader, but she' ; s a nice woman. But she was not Jewish, she didn' ; t really know anything about Jewish--and I don' ; t know if she converted or not. She may have, I' ; m not sure. But Lesley and Connie had nothing in common. But Lesley and Phillip had a lot in common. Phillip had Jewish friends, boy friends here. Twins, the Barr twins, young boys Phillip' ; s age. John Maybury, whose mother was Jewish. His father was not. His father was a pediatric endocrinologist. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. LEVY: And I took Phillip to him once, because we found Phillip hanging--he wanted a chinning bar on his bedroom door. FERNHEIMER: Oh. LEVY: And we put one up. But then I found him hanging buy his arms on the chinning bar, and he thought that that was going to make him taller. (laughter) And that' ; s when I took him to Dr. Maybury to be checked, because he didn' ; t seem small to me, but--so Dr. Maybury checked him out, he was fine. And Dr. Maybury' ; s--this was John Maybury' ; s father. As we were leaving, he said to me, " ; You understand, Mrs. Levy, you don' ; t come from a race of giants." ; And I said, " ; Yeah." ; So, he was explaining to me that Phillip was never going to be six foot, but he was going to be five-nine or five-ten. And Phillip is five-nine. Phillip' ; s like Erle. Not big, not little. Fine. So-- FERNHEIMER: Um, is there anything else that you would like to share, looking back or-- LEVY: I don' ; t know what would be interesting to share. FERNHEIMER: Uh, that we haven' ; t covered or anything-- LEVY: I have a cover? FERNHEIMER: That we haven' ; t covered, sorry. LEVY: Well, I think I' ; m probably married to the best guy in the world, truly, honestly. He' ; s just a fabulous person. And I' ; ve always felt that even if I weren' ; t so much in love with him and just knew him as a person, you have to respect him and admire him, because he is just a fabulous person. Everything about him. He' ; s good. He' ; s just a good, wonderful, loving guy. FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you, Sara, for spending-- LEVY: You are so welcome! FERNHEIMER: --time with me today and answering these questions. LEVY: And I' ; ll probably think of many things I should have told you. FERNHEIMER: Well, maybe you' ; ll be willing and--and--and--to be available if we send--have a student come or another person do a follow-up interview once we' ; ve-- LEVY: --yeah, yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --had a chance to listen through. LEVY: Because there' ; s so much more to life. FERNHEIMER: Yes. Yes, there is. And I definitely want to follow up with you about these pictures that you mentioned. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And some of the documents and things. LEVY: You' ; ll come to the house and we' ; ll go look through everything. And I' ; ve got a copy machine that can make it bigger, make it smaller. FERNHEIMER: Wonderful. LEVY: It is wonderful. FERNHEIMER: Well, that will be great. LEVY: I' ; ve got a good life. Really good life, because--why do I have such a happy life? Why do you think? FERNHEIMER: I' ; m interviewing you, so I' ; m going to let you offer the answer. (laughter) LEVY: I have Erle. That' ; s--he' ; s the whole thing right there. He' ; s great. He' ; s so good to live with. He' ; s just good. All good. FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you again, Sara. LEVY: You are welcome. I' ; m going to keep this. FERNHEIMER: Sure. You can keep that and share them with Erle, since he-- LEVY: Right. FERNHEIMER: I' ; ll be bringing him in next week, um-- LEVY: As a coll--oh, I' ; ll tell you one thing as a college student that was so embarrassing to me, and yet I had to do it. They had then--I can' ; t remember what it was called, but the fraternities would elect a girl to be Miss whatever it was. And then they--the univ-- FERNHEIMER: Like, a sweetheart or something? LEVY: Yeah, something like a carnival, and you would be representing that fraternity. And you would have a costume to wear, which was a short costume. And a--what are the stockings with, like, holes in them? FERNHEIMER: Fishnet? LEVY: Fishnet stockings and high heel shoes. And you walk around with a thing that you want people to buy, whatever was in here. I don' ; t remember what was in there, but people were buying them. So, I was--the fraternity. Well, I had never in my life had on fishnet stockings and black high heel shoes and a short--I mean, it was, like, way above my knees and I was so humiliated to walk around like that. But there were a lot of girls walking around like that, and I thought we are stu--we are idiots. We have let them make us do this and we' ; re doing it. And I did it. I never liked--I felt--I did not ever feel comfortable--I' ; m trying to think what was that, that was some festival at the university. FERNHEIMER: Huh. LEVY: Had to be some holiday, because we-- FERNHEIMER: And this was something they did regularly in the fraternity, that they would have-- LEVY: --mm-mm-- FERNHEIMER: --young women be elected-- LEVY: --no, it-- FERNHEIMER: --to this role? LEVY: No, it was all the fraternities. FERNHEIMER: Okay. LEVY: And maybe sororities, too, I don' ; t know, but it was all girls dressed in these short little--I mean, I was dressed a lot compared to what some of the girls had on. FERNHEIMER: Huh. LEVY: But if you' ; re not used to doing that--I never--I felt like I was almost naked walking around like that. FERNHEIMER: And yet, you agreed to do it because? LEVY: Because the fraternity elected me to do it. FERNHEIMER: Mm. LEVY: And I thought, oh, that' ; s a good thing. I didn' ; t know that you had to wear the really short thing. (laughter) I didn' ; t know that. I thought, you know, it' ; s nice to--the fraternity elected me for--so, I didn' ; t know that they did all the rest of it, a--festival stuff. And I had black fishnet stockings, they had black high heels, and a short thing and it was green. FERNHEIMER: Green. LEVY: So, maybe it was St. Patrick' ; s Day or something like that, I don' ; t know. FERNHEIMER: Huh. LEVY: I don' ; t know, anyway. FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you. LEVY: So, that was embarrassing. FERNHEIMER: I can imagine. LEVY: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you very much. LEVY: You are very welcome. FERNHEIMER: And-- LEVY: And I was a virgin when I got married. Yeah. I think even then there were not a lot of us, but there were--I just--and--and Erle knew that he could have me any time he wanted. He knew that. But he knew that that would hurt me, ultimately, if we had sex before we married. ' ; Cause I would have done it. I would have done anything for him. Anything. So, he held off, because he knew it would eventually--if it didn' ; t bother me a lot then, eventually it would make me feel bad about myself. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. LEVY: And he was right. That' ; s the kind of guy he is, and he' ; s still like that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. LEVY: He' ; s a great guy. FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you. I' ; m very glad I also have the opportunity to interview him, too. LEVY: And I hope you love your husband that much, too! FERNHEIMER: Well, of course. LEVY: And he loves you-- FERNHEIMER: Of course! LEVY: --in 60 years. FERNHEIMER: God willing. Well, thank you so much. LEVY: You are so welcome. FERNHEIMER: Thank you, John. M: Oh, you' ; re welcome. It was very-- FERNHEIMER: Let me make sure I get the um- LEVY: And John, this has been an education for you, hasn' ; t it? M: Yeah, I love hearing these stories. It' ; s one of the--best part of my job' ; s-- END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh315_jk003_levy_ohm.xml 2015oh315_jk003_levy_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh315_jk003_levy_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sara Levy, August 12, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Sara Levy talks about growing up in Williamson, West Virginia. She goes on to discuss the Williamson Bargain Store, a clothing store that was owned and operated by her parents. Levy lists off her mother's family from Williamson. She also discusses her father's immigration into the United States from Poland. Levy recounts the story of her father coming to Williamson as a peddler, and founding the Williamson Bargain Store with a Syrian business partner named Mikhel. Levy recounts her parents' religious practices and beliefs. She recounts the role of Jewish tradition during her childhood, and her first time experiencing anti-Semitism.
Levy discusses daily life at University of Kentucky in the 1950s, as well as the student dating scene during this time. Levy discusses Jewish sororities at UK, and other Jewish students at the university. Levy was briefly involved in a sorority that she helped found but left because she did not agree with the group's mission. Levy discusses the Jewish community of Lexington. She reminisces about marrying her husband, Earl.
Identifier
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2015oh315_jk003
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lexington (Ky.)--Social conditions
Entrepreneurship
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Ownership
Jewish families.
University of Kentucky
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
Jews--Identity.
College students--Social conditions
Greek letter societies.
Childhood
Jewish children
Religion
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/a4165bab0ec146502bb6d7a460ed12b0.jpg
26041c9be3de159755189656bbe4f5d6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Fernheimer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Samuel Elliott Halpern
Interview Keyword
Sh*t My Dad Says (Book)
Emigration and immigration.
Food habits
Shit My Dad Says (Twitter)
$#*! My Dad Says (Television program)
A Far Piece to Canaan: A Novel of Friendship and Redemption (Book)
Cooking
University of Louisville
Holidays--Kentucky
Medical education
University of Kentucky
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh168_jk001 Interview with Samuel Elliott Halpern, March 30, 2015 2015oh168_jk001 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Depressions--1929--Kentucky Poverty--Appalachian Region Childhood Jews--Identity. Religion Agriculture--Kentucky Farm tenancy Immigrants--Kentucky Sharecropping Appalachian Region--Social life and customs Physicians Authors. Jewish children--Kentucky--Lexington Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.). Sh*t My Dad Says (Book) Emigration and immigration. Food habits Shit My Dad Says (Twitter) $#*! My Dad Says (Television program) A Far Piece to Canaan: A Novel of Friendship and Redemption (Book) Cooking University of Louisville Holidays--Kentucky Medical education University of Kentucky Samuel Elliott Halpern Janice Fernheimer 1:|21(7)|30(4)|60(5)|70(9)|79(9)|86(13)|94(1)|103(14)|113(2)|121(10)|136(6)|148(3)|156(9)|168(12)|176(12)|186(11)|194(6)|202(1)|215(2)|243(14)|255(16)|267(6)|285(13)|313(16)|332(8)|349(13)|369(13)|384(10)|390(18)|401(19)|423(5)|431(13)|441(3)|456(6)|479(16)|496(14)|517(12)|525(3)|544(3)|553(5)|567(7)|588(12)|599(13)|618(5)|628(13)|650(4)|657(12)|670(8)|679(9)|689(3)|710(15)|725(5)|736(14)|743(12)|760(16)|778(2)|788(10)|797(5)|808(7)|814(8)|829(8)|842(8)|853(16)|871(2)|887(3)|894(16)|904(15)|911(13)|924(2)|938(4)|945(10)|954(7)|961(3)|969(5)|978(2)|989(7)|997(10)|1016(3)|1023(7)|1031(10)|1045(1)|1061(1)|1071(3)|1088(10)|1097(3)|1111(11)|1127(13)|1155(9)|1164(11)|1179(1)|1198(7)|1228(1)|1253(10)|1272(3)|1283(3)|1293(8)|1299(4)|1309(2)|1323(5)|1335(3)|1344(11)|1360(15)|1367(1)|1388(9)|1422(13)|1435(7)|1449(11)|1454(3)|1460(7)|1470(9)|1478(2)|1498(7)|1512(6) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253334980" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 2 Personal background Good morning. In this introduction, Sam Halpern discusses his birthplace and the farmhouse he grew up in, which is near the Toyota plant in Georgetown, Kentucky presently. Halpern also discusses the Appalachian practice of sitting up with corpses, which his father was doing at the time of Halpern's birth. 1936 ; Appalachian culture ; Corpse sitting ; Toyota Motor Manufacturing, Kentucky, Inc. Appalachian Region--Social life and customs ; Families. ; Georgetown (Ky.) 38.2610322, -84.5317628 17 Toyota Motor Manufacturing, Kentucky, Inc., Georgetown (Ky.) http://www.josephinesjournal.com/sitting.htm An article that explains the history behind corpse sitting. 173 Childhood as a sharecropper during the Great Depression Um, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood and what it was like growing up on the farm and? Halpern discusses his childhood and his experiences growing up as a sharecropper during the Great Depression in Kentucky. Halpern discusses the use of horses on the farm instead of tractors, as well as the activities he enjoyed outside of farming. Such activities included fishing, hunting, and running around barefoot with his friends. Agrarian ; Great Depression ; Horses ; Idyllic ; Tobacco Agriculture--Kentucky ; Childhood ; Depressions--1929--Kentucky ; Family farms ; Farm tenancy ; Poverty--Appalachian Region ; Recreation ; Sharecropping ; Traditional farming 17 http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/sharecropping An article describing the history and definition of sharecropping. 287 Dangers of the farmhouses The old farmhouses we lived in were, were, were firetraps of course. Halpern briefly discusses the dangers that fire presented to farmers living in the farm houses. These farm houses were typically shoddy structures that presented a great danger to the sharecroppers living in them. Halpern also describes the freedom he enjoyed as a worry-free child living on the farm. Farm houses ; Fires ; Firetraps Agriculture--Kentucky ; Childhood ; Family farms ; Farm tenancy ; Sharecropping ; Traditional farming 17 355 Relationship between landlords and sharecroppers Uh, the landlords, which, uh, none of them were exactly, uh, the warmest, uh, kindest people in the world. Halpern discusses the social structures of Depression-era Kentucky. In particular, he details where his family fell in relation the landlords. He briefly talks about relations between the landlords and the sharecroppers, which he compares to a feudal system with the landowner taking the place of a feudal lord. Feudal ; Great Depression ; Landlords ; Rent ; Sharecroppers Agriculture--Kentucky ; Childhood ; Depressions--1929--Kentucky ; Family farms ; Farm tenancy ; Poverty--Appalachian Region ; Sharecropping ; Traditional farming 17 400 Racial divisions in Depression-era Kentucky The society in those times, of course, was, uh, racially divided... Halpern explains segregation and racial divisions among children during the Great Depression in Kentucky. He also discusses often being the only Jewish student in his schools. Halpern also recounts that his friends were almost exclusively Christian, and he had very few Black friends. Anti-Semitism ; Baptist ; Christianity ; Fundamentalism ; Great Depression ; Pentecostal ; Protestant ; Protestantism ; Racial divisions African Americans--Segregation ; Depressions--1929--Kentucky ; Jewish children--Kentucky ; Jews--Kentucky ; Race relations--Appalachian Region ; Racism ; Religion 17 http://www.kywcrh.org/archives/2993 An article documenting segregation and race relations in Kentucky in the early 20th century. 477 Parents' immigration and religious practices When did you or how did you become aware that your family was Jewish and that that was different? Halpern relays the story of his mother and father immigrating to the United States. Halpern's mother immigrated to Brooklyn from Kovno, Lithuania at age 2, while his father immigrated from Kovno at age 16 to New York, where he attended college. Halpern also discusses the educations his parents received regarding Judaism, with his father being very educated in the Jewish religion and his mother being educated in the social aspects of the Jewish culture. Brooklyn (N.Y.) ; Hogs ; Jewish education ; Kheyder ; Kovno (Lithuania) ; Lithuania ; Orthodox Judaism Agriculture--Kentucky ; Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Farm tenancy ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Poverty--Appalachian Region ; Religion ; Sharecropping ; Traditional farming 54.8985207, 23.9035965 17 Kovno (Lithuania) 702 Jewish education So almost all of my education until I got off on my own, uh, came from discussions from my parents. Halpern discusses his experience of being a Jewish young man in Kentucky. Halpern also discusses his lack of exposure to the synagogue and hands-on experiences with Judaism and Jewish culture. Halpern then goes on to state that he was the only Jew in school, and speculates that his family may have been the only Jewish sharecroppers in Kentucky. Bourbon County (Ky.) ; Education ; Fayette County (Ky.) ; Paris (Ky.) ; Scott County (Ky.) ; Synagogues Agriculture--Kentucky ; Childhood ; Farm tenancy ; Jewish children--Kentucky ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Religion ; Sharecropping ; Traditional farming 17 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/kentucky-jewish-history A brief history of Jews in Kentucky. 958 Interactions with the Lexington Jewish community Can you tell me a little bit about your interactions with the Jewish community? Halpern discusses his very limited interactions with the Jewish community. Most of his interactions came on the high holidays, but he and his family were not often seen at the synagogue. Halpern felt different from the other kids at the synagogue because there was a socioeconomic distinction between him and the others. Thus, Halpern and the other Jewish kids did not co-mingle due to the separation he felt. However, Halpern felt much more connected to his friends that were gentiles. Agnostic ; High holidays ; Holocaust ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; Rosh Hashanah ; Secular ; World War II ; WWII ; Yom Kippur Childhood ; Families. ; Holidays--Kentucky ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Poverty--Appalachian Region ; Religion 17 1126 Father's journey to Kentucky Um, what--can you tell me a little bit about--you said your dad wanted to enjoy the freedom of being out west. Halpern tells the story of how his family ended up in Kentucky. Both of his parents found themselves in New York, then Halpern's father went to Oklahoma to work, then joined the wheat harvest, and finally arrived in Lexington to work with his aunt and uncle. National Agricultural School ; Oklahoma ; Wheat harvest ; World War I ; WWI Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.). 35.5, -98 17 Oklahoma, where Halpern's father went after he left New York. 1310 Family connections in Kentucky Then we had, uh, family in Lexington, Kentucky. Halpern describes his aunts and uncles that lived in Lexington at the time his father arrived. He also recollects the names of several of his cousins that lived in Lexington at that time as well. Halpern also describes the paths his father's brothers and sisters took upon coming to America. Halpern especially mentions his uncle I.J. Schwartz, who wrote the poem " ; Kentucky" ; in Yiddish. Aunts ; Connections ; Cousins ; Family ; I.J. Schwartz ; Uncles Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.). 17 1665 Mother's childhood and early life Yeah. Did her family react positively? Negatively? In general? Halpern describes his mother's upbringing as an orphan. His mother began working in the Lower East Side at 13 years old sometime before 1910. Her job at the factory was to place ostrich feathers in hats for women. Brooklyn (N.Y.) ; Child labor ; Factory ; Gefilte fish ; Hats ; Jobs ; Kentucky River ; Southern cooking ; Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire ; Work Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Employment ; Immigrants 40.730085, -73.995356 17 Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, the Brown Building in New York City. 1758 Mother's cooking / typical day on the farm Anyway, he married her and took her to, uh, Kentucky. Halpern's mother married his father and they moved to Kentucky and entered into the sharecropping lifestyle, which included southern cooking. He also explains how the sharecropping community would socialize by stopping in for food and sharing work with one another. His mother also prepared gefilte fish, a Jewish dish, fairly often and they would serve it to their neighbors while they were entertaining them. Halpern discusses early morning chores, work, and eating on the farm. Halpern also discusses the importance of meals not only for socializing, but also to keep up their energy to work in the fields. Chores ; Entertainment ; Food customs ; Gefilte fish ; Labor ; Swapping work ; Tobacco ; Work Agriculture--Kentucky ; Appalachian Region--Social life and customs ; Cooking ; Farm tenancy ; Food habits ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Jews--Kentucky ; Sharecropping ; Traditional farming 17 2089 Kosher food and synagogues And, oh yeah, we used to buy matzo, uh, for Passover. Halpern discusses the local butcher, Mr. Goller, a bearded man who he remembers fondly. Mr. Goller was a kosher butcher who was very involved in the conservative synagogue, as he was a cantor. Halpern's family bought matzo from him and were very fond of him in general. Cantor ; Kosher delis ; Matzo ; Mr. Goller ; Passover ; Shul Childhood ; Food habits ; Holidays--Kentucky ; Jewish children--Kentucky ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Religion 38.0517437, -84.4913736 17 Location of Mr. Goller's butcher shop. 2514 Sundays and Sabbath So you kind of took us through a typical working day in the sharecropper's life. Can you tell us a little bit about what a typical I guess Sunday would look like with folks dropping in or-- Halpern discusses what a typical Sunday was like during his childhood. Sundays began with chores at 5:30 a.m. and then Sam would go off and fish once his family had their own farm. Conforming to the surrounding culture, Sam's family used Sunday as their Sabbath day. Chores ; Dropping in ; Fishing ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) Childhood ; Jewish children--Kentucky ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Religion 17 http://www.reformjudaism.org/origins-shabbat An article that explains the history behind the observance of the Sabbath. 2598 Educational path I want to switch gears a little bit to talk about, um-- Halpern discusses his journey from the farm to college. He was inspired by his sister's boyfriend, who was majoring in physics, and decided to major in physics at UK. After having little success in physics, he changed his major to archaeology, and then to physiology. He then attended medical school at the University of Louisville. Archaeology ; Physics ; Physiology ; Vietnam War College students--Conduct of life. ; Medical education ; Physicians ; Universities and colleges. ; University of Kentucky ; University of Louisville 38.215019, -85.760222 17 University of Louisville, where Halpern attended medical school. 2927 Early career and life after college So I did my internship and then the Vietnam War, uh, started cranking up. Halpern describes his career path after he graduated from medical school. He first took an internship year, then joined the Navy during the Vietnam War, then went into internal medicine. However, an opportunity in nuclear medicine came up, so he took a year researching that. Finally, he took a job at UCSD and spent his career there. Careers ; Clinicals ; Fellowships ; Internal medicine ; Nuclear medicine ; Physiology ; Research ; University of California at San Diego (UCSD) ; University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) Medical education ; Physicians ; United States. Navy. ; Universities and colleges. ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 32.881, -117.238 17 University of California at San Diego 3063 Student life at the University of Kentucky Can you tell me a little bit about what life was like at the University of Kentucky in the fifties? Halpern goes on to discuss what life was like as a student at UK during the 1950s. He had very few interactions with the Jewish community of UK, but knew a few people that were in the Jewish fraternity. Halpern also discusses a house he lived in with other pre-med students, which they called their own fraternity. He also discusses the application process to medical school, describing the southern schools as being easier to get into. He goes on to describe the demographics of his medical school class at the University of Louisville which included 5 Jews, 1 woman, and 1 Black person out of 100 students. Fraternities ; Lambda Alpha Delta ; Medical schools ; Socializing ; Student life ; University of Louisville ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; Medical education ; Physicians ; Religion ; Universities and colleges. ; University of Kentucky 38.0389023, -84.504929 17 University of Kentucky 3410 Thoughts on Kentucky's development Now that you're talking about how things have changed and how they've stayed the same, I, I wonder what, what's it like to be back in Kentucky now, having grown up here? Halpern discusses how Central Kentucky has changed since his childhood, as opposed to Northern Kentucky, where his family farmed. He views Central Kentucky as being southern. He reflects on the corporate aspects of Lexington and how Central Kentucky was originally built on tobacco, horses, and the agrarian lifestyle. However, he thinks Kentucky has moved away from the agrarian lifestyle. Halpern also describes how different the University of Kentucky is from when he attended and how it is so " ; built up" ; now. Halpern also recounts the numerous famous horses he met in his time living in Kentucky, such as Man O' War and Coaltown. A Far Piece to Canaan: A Novel of Friendship and Redemption (Book) ; Authors ; Central Kentucky ; Coaltown (Racehorse) ; Horses ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Man O' War (Racehorse) ; Novels ; Writing Agriculture--Kentucky ; Lexington (Ky.). ; University of Kentucky 38.0746285, -84.4875736 17 IBM plant in Lexington (Ky.) 3771 " ; A Far Piece to Canaan" ; Many, many of the things that you're talking about right now kind of make an appearance-- Halpern discusses his interest in writing, which began with writing on the walls of his house as a child. He continued to write in college as a freshman. Halpern then relays his various weaknesses in writing such as grammar and capitalization. He began writing a book while he was a professor at UCSD, but eventually stopped writing for a while. Nearly 20 years later, he wrote the rest of the story in his original novel, which became " ; A Far Piece to Canaan." ; A Far Piece to Canaan: A Novel of Friendship and Redemption (Book) ; Books ; Literature ; Writing Authors. 17 4083 The context behind " ; A Far Piece to Canaan" ; Well, so its--this commitment to writing, I, I mean, you describe it as an early childhood commitment, literally onto the walls of your parents' house... Halpern discusses the close relationship he has kept with his high school classmates, whom he had his 60th reunion with recently. He also relates his real life experiences to the ones he writes about in his novel, which he thinks are hard for young people to imagine these days. Halpern also states that his novel is his way of stating how he sees life. He wants readers to gain an insight into what it was really like to be an accepted Jew on a sharecropping farm. High schools ; Jewish life ; Sharecroppers Authors. ; Childhood ; Farm tenancy ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Sharecropping ; Traditional farming 17 4528 Current outlook on his identity So you have many different identities. Halpern discusses his identity, which he does not feel can be described solely as a sharecropper, Jew, Kentuckian, doctor, or father. He instead views himself as just being a human being, and not a defining label. Human beings ; Identity ; Jewish identity Agriculture--Kentucky ; Farm tenancy ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Physicians--Kentucky ; Religion ; Sharecropping 17 4647 Sh*t My Dad Says (Twitter, book, and sitcom) One of the more recent things that has happened is your son and his column. Halpern talks about his son and the popularity of Sh*t My Dad Says, a Twitter feed which reached internet fame and cultural influence. He also goes on to discuss the book his son wrote about him, as well as the sitcom that came about starring William Shatner as Halpern. $#*! My Dad Says (Television program) ; Books ; Isolation ; Justin Halpern ; Pop culture ; Sh*t My Dad Says (Book) ; Shit My Dad Says (Twitter) ; Sons ; Twitter ; William Shatner Authors. 17 5199 Writing across generations So from your great uncle I.J., to you, to your son it-- Halpern discusses his own writing, the writing of his niece, his father, great uncle, and son. Almost all of the people he mentions have been published, himself included. He goes on to discuss his father's memoirs and how his wife helped him write them. A Far Piece to Canaan: A Novel of Friendship and Redemption (Book) ; Books ; Memoirs ; Writing Authors. ; Families. ; Publishers and publishing. 17 5275 His father's influence on the sharecropping community He was--interestingly enough, uh, he had more education than any of the other croppers around. Halpern discusses the role his father played as a " ; judge" ; in the sharecropping community due to his level of education. He often would settle disputes between his neighbors due to both his education and reputation of being an honest and decent person. He claims that his father's decency was the best thing he passed down to Sam as a person. Adjudicate ; Disputes ; Education ; Lawyers ; Opinions Agriculture--Kentucky ; Families. ; Family farms ; Farm tenancy ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Sharecropping ; Traditional farming 38.029722, -84.494722 17 Lexington (Ky.), where Halpern's family lived 5607 Most vivid memories of the Lexington Jewish community Maybe, uh, uh, one last question kind of--what's your most vivid memory from your experiences, limited as they were, with the Jewish community during that time? Halpern recalls his most vivid memory of the Jewish community. His memory was of being excluded from his own people at the synagogue during Yom Kippur as a child. His most vivid and fond memories of the Jewish community are of his interactions with Mr. Goller, the butcher, whom Sam was very fond of. Exclusion ; Jewish communities ; Memory ; Synagogues ; Yom Kippur Holidays--Kentucky ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.). 17 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/yom-kippur-history-and-overview The history of Yom Kippur 5700 His advice for humans So the, the experiences in " ; Far Piece," ; they're loosely fictionalized? More autobiographical? How would you describe them? Halpern expresses his feelings towards the future of the human race. He agrees with Stephen Hawking in that he believes we are " ; hell-bent" ; on destroying ourselves. He also states that people have so much potential and can do such great things, yet continue to partake in barbaric behaviors and acts. He goes on to comment on how quickly technology is moving, and that it's hard to keep up with. Halpern says that would like people to think more about the things they are exposed to and not just accept them at face value. He also wants people to think whether they want the things they see to exist in the world that they desire. He mainly emphasizes the power of thinking and believing in the type of world you want to live in. California ; Destruction ; Human race ; Jewish Kentucky ; Siblings ; Stephen Hawking Technological innovations 17 6229 Siblings So a couple follow-up questions about your family, Sam. Can you tell me how many, uh, members of your family did you live with here in Lexington in your house? Halpern shares the names of his three siblings: Bob, Debbie, and Naomi. Sam was the youngest, with 12 years between him and Bob, 10 years between him and Debbie, and 7 years between him and Naomi. Bob became an engineer and both Debbie and Naomi became nurses. Sam also reflects on the effects Judaism has had on his life. Sam views Judaism's effect on his life as changing his outlook to be more humanitarian. He also reflects on the effect that Jewish people have had on the world despite their small numbers as a group. Brothers ; Siblings ; Sisters Families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.). ; Religion 37, -120 17 California, where Sam and his only living sister both live. Oral History Samuel Elliot Halpern was born in Georgetown, Kentucky in 1939 to a Jewish tobacco sharecropping family. Sam’s early life was characterized by experiences of fishing and hunting on his family’s farms and working long, grueling days in the fields. While the life of a sharecropper was not usually viewed as being comfortable, Sam describes his experience as having no knowledge of the fact that his family was poor and believing that they were middle-class and no different from their Christian counterparts. Sam then goes on to describe his parents’ immigration from Lithuania to New York and his family’s lack of involvement in the Jewish community in Kentucky. Sam also describes his educational path which begins with his enrollment at the University of Kentucky in 1953, then medical school at the University of Louisville from 1957 to 1961, and finally his career as a professor at the University of California at San Diego from 1970 to 2009. Upon retiring from teaching, Sam revisited a writing project he began in the late 1960’s and decided to finish the story which became A Far Piece to Canaan, a novel that is a fictional representation of his life and experiences as a white, Jewish sharecropper in Kentucky. Finally, Sam reflects on his son’s viral Twitter feed, “Sh*t My Dad Says”, which is comprised of words of wisdom shared by Sam to his son over the years. The Twitter feed was so popular that it eventually landed Sam’s son a book deal and a sitcom which starred William Shatner, a fellow Kentuckian. The interview concludes with Sam sharing his views on humanity and the number of siblings he has. F: And rolling. FERNHEIMER: Okay, good morning. HALPERN: Good morning. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s almost good afternoon. Today is March 30th, 2015. My name is Janice Fernheimer. And I' ; m here with Sam Halpern, uh, to do the first interview in a series on Kentucky Jewish oral history. And it is a great pleasure to welcome Sam here from California. HALPERN: Thank you. FERNHEIMER: Uh, I just want to get started by asking you to tell me a little bit about yourself, where and when were you born, what was it like growing up here in Kentucky. HALPERN: Well, I was born January 9th, 1936 in a small house, farmhouse, uh, near Georgetown, Kentucky, uh, right now there' ; s a, uh, a, uh, the largest Toyota plant in the world. And at the end of that, uh, I was told that the little white house still exists. Uh, I don' ; t know if it does or not. But, uh, that' ; s where I was, uh, born. And, uh, there' ; s some interesting stories surrounding that. My, uh, father at that time, uh, I expect I arrived a little bit early. It was a very very cold snowy time. And he was sitting up with a corpse, which, uh, used to be done in those days. Uh, uh, they took turns, and, uh, we were--Dad was taking his turn. And, uh, Mom went into labor. And my brother who was twelve years older than me, uh, struggled through the snow about three miles to get Dad. And by the time, uh, uh, Dad got back to the house and the--the doc got there, uh, a, uh, neighbor lady, uh, delivered me. Uh, I met everybody. (laughs) All at once. FERNHEIMER: Wow. When you say your father was sitting up, uh, with a corpse, was he--was it part of the Jewish burial society or was it just-- HALPERN: --no, no, this fellow was-- FERNHEIMER: --something that everyone did? HALPERN: It was done all over the South in those times. You sat up with the corpse. Uh, there' ; s a lot of stories, uh, that, uh, surround, uh, sitting up with a corpse. Uh, one of them of course was to keep the, uh, the various animals-- FERNHEIMER: --right. HALPERN: --away. Uh, and, uh, there' ; s signs of respect and that sort of thing. And people would take turns. And there, uh, sometimes it was a twenty-four-hour-a-day, uh, type thing, uh, and they sat up with the--the corpse. FERNHEIMER: So you had the full c-- circle of l-- life right there. HALPERN: That' ; s right. FERNHEIMER: Uh, dad sitting up with the corpse and you c-- coming right in. HALPERN: Right. FERNHEIMER: Uh, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood and what it was like growing up on the farm and-- HALPERN: --well, uh, I guess everybody would look at it a little bit differently. To me, I lived an idyllic childhood. We were sharecroppers. Uh, we moved from farm to farm like all the rest of them. Uh, tobacco was the major crop of course, uh, here in Kentucky. Uh, but it was diversified farming other than that. And, uh, so I was in the fields by the time I was eight years old. And, uh, you know, picking up tobacco leaves and things like that and, uh, walking behind the plow by the time I was ten. And, you know, this--we--we worked horses in those times. Uh, because it was--the land was rough and the--the tractors were not yet low enough so that they wouldn' ; t, uh, d-- their center of gravity wasn' ; t low enough that they could be used without turning over. So we used, uh, horses. And, uh, when I wasn' ; t, uh, uh, working, uh, I was fishing and--and, uh, hunting and, uh, running around with my buddies. And, uh, I' ; d go barefoot every, uh, summer, you know, shoes would come off sometime around the first of May, wouldn' ; t go back on until school started. Uh, picked many a thorn out of my foot. Uh, we, uh, even though we sharecropped, uh, and it was still, you know, Depression days, uh, or the end of the Depression days, we always had lots and lots to eat. You know, the--the old farmhouses we lived in were--were--were firetraps of course. Uh, if they d-- fire was your--your greatest fear because those things used to flame up and be gone in no time, you' ; d be lucky to get out alive. But, uh, my life was free. You know? There was never any fear of walking down the street, uh, uh, it was, uh, all my friends were, uh, other sharecroppers' ; kids. Uh, we didn' ; t even know we were poor most of the time, you know. Uh, it was just, uh, an agrarian life. Uh, probably not unlike the agrarian life that existed, uh, since the Middle Ages, you know. Uh, the things that you contended with, some of which exist today, uh, the markets of course, uh, for the stuff that you raised. In the Depression nothing brought anything. Uh, the landlords, which, uh, none of them were exactly, uh, the warmest, uh, kindest people in the world. They, uh, it was somewhat of a feudal system. Uh, and, uh, the sharecropper of course was at the, uh, bottom of the food chain. Uh, and none of us really understood as kids the pressures on our fathers and mothers. The, uh, but everybody was kind of in the same boat, you know. Uh, it, uh, the society in those times of course was, uh, racially divided. Uh, so all of your friends, uh, you know, small friends, uh, were pretty muchly white, other--there was, uh, a few, uh, I had a few black friends. We didn' ; t go to the same schools of course. Because it was totally segregated. Uh, but, uh, I didn' ; t feel much in the way of pressure from being different from anyone else. Uh, I rarely knew anti-Semitism. Uh, the reason being that, uh, most of the, uh, the Christians were--were, uh, were very conservative Christians, uh, fundamentalists. And, uh--(laughs)--I think they thought we were, uh, uh, you know, kind of kin to, uh, to Christ since he was a Jew. (laughs) So you--you commanded a little bit of respect from--from that angle. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: When did you or how did you become aware that your family was Jewish and that that was different? Uh, do you remember? HALPERN: Well, my mother, believe it or not, was from Brooklyn. She was, uh, born in Europe but she came over at an extremely early age. She was about two. Uh, she, uh, my father came over when he was sixteen. Uh, both were from, uh, around a town called Kovno, uh, which is in Lithuania. And, uh, Dad spent, uh, a couple years in New York, went to the National Agricultural School, got a couple of years of college, and then he struck out west. You know, he liked the freedom that he--that he enjoyed, uh, and he didn' ; t have the, uh, the degree of, uh, of--hadn' ; t--didn' ; t have to face anti-Semitism, uh, like he did in Europe when he was growing up. Uh, he could just be, uh, pretty much a man. Now my mother had been raised in New York, and so she--while my father had a very excellent, uh, religious education before he came to this country, my mother had the acculturation of, uh, the Jewish social system in this country. And so, uh, she was the mover and shaker of things that were, uh, to be Jewish in the house. But, uh, uh, some would tell you that we were about, uh, as, uh, as Jewish as Patty' ; s pig. But--(laughs)--that' ; s not really true. My--my mother always wanted me to know who I was. And, uh, my father used to say, " ; He will know who he was." ; And we discussed things that were Jewish. Uh, my father had a, you know, a really wonderful, uh, Jewish education in the old country before he came here, uh. FERNHEIMER: Was he in cheder? HALPERN: Pardon. FERNHEIMER: Was he in cheder? Did he go-- HALPERN: --oh yeah, he--oh yeah. His, uh, grandpa was, uh, was Orthodox. And so, uh, when he came here, uh, he had--he knew, uh, a lot about, uh, uh, Judaism and, uh, was very widely read. He was--he was, uh, a very intellectual man really. Uh, he read, you know, everything from, uh, Tolstoy to the Reader' ; s Digest. (laughs) Wh-- whatever he--he could get his hands on. And he used to discuss things. My mother--my mother, uh, had as I said the social experience of Judaism and, uh, she would apply that in many ways. Uh, but, you know, as, uh, as farmers we did things like, you know, uh, we--it was diversified farming. We raised hogs, you know, uh, for the market, you know, there was--and, uh, we didn' ; t keep a kosher home. But, uh, you know, what kosher was was explained to me. So almost all of my education until I got off on my own, uh, came from discussions from my parents. Almost, uh, none of it came from my experiences with the synagogue, uh. FERNHEIMER: Uh. HALPERN: Uh, or from other Jewish people. I was always the only Jewish kid in every school that I went to all the way through high school. There was never a school--and I went to eight or nine of them because, you know, you--we cropped all over, uh, Kentucky, uh, Scott County, where I was born. Bourbon County, uh, not too far from Paris. Uh, Fayette County. Uh, and, uh, you know, there--there weren' ; t any--any Jews really living, uh, in--in--in those--those agrarian areas. Uh, uh, uh, they were all in the cities. I think we were probably--and I can' ; t prove this--the only Jewish, uh, tobacco sharecroppers in the history of the commonwealth, you know. But, uh, you know, uh, I' ; d like to--to know if there was ever anybody else. Be interesting to swap stories. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. HALPERN: But, uh, we did the same kind of things as all the other folks, uh, uh, in, uh, uh, uh, other sharecroppers, you know, it was, uh, I can remember my father doing things like, uh, oh yeah. Once, uh, there was, uh, all of his friends of course were Christian. Uh, and, uh, there was a problem, uh, with, uh, the church, one of the Baptist churches, uh, uh, they needed to raise some money. And my father and mother went around just like all the other croppers went around, uh, with their Model Ts or Model As and, uh, collecting money for the church. Uh, Dad did that, you know. Uh, my--I became aware very early on how my father was looked at among the, uh, cropping society in which we lived. And there--there--there were distinct societies. There were the--the sharecroppers, who were, uh, you know, the bottom socioeconomic level. There were the landlords, who we always thought were rich, uh, but, you know--(laughs)--they were far from rich, uh, except for a few. Uh, there were, uh, merchants. Most of the Jewish people at that time in Lexington, and there weren' ; t very many. Uh, there were small shopkeepers. Uh, there was one butcher shop, uh, run by, uh, a fellow who appears in this book, uh, uh, Mr. Goller. Uh, there were, uh, you know, dry goods stores. There were, uh, pawnshops, uh, there were I don' ; t know what all kinds of business. Oh yeah, used parts, uh, uh, the, uh, and--and that sort of thing. Just, uh, everybody was, you know, middle-class to lower-middle-class. And, uh, we always thought we were, uh, you know, I always thought we were middle-class. Uh, and--and I never knew we were poor, you know. Uh, we didn' ; t think we were poor. It was a state of mind, middle-class state of mind, which, uh, uh, to this day I carry with me, you know. A middle-class, uh, state of mind. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about your interactions with the Jewish community? You said that, uh, you didn' ; t interact that much. But on what occasions and what was it like? And maybe you could describe one of your memories. HALPERN: Okay. The--I had very little interactions with the Jewish community. They came on the High Holy Days. Uh, my father, uh, after World War II, uh, he became at least agnostic. Uh, we lost, uh, you know, enormous numbers of people in my family. And he did not cope with that well. Uh, and so he--he was--he never criticized anyone' ; s religion but he, uh, was, uh, he could define the word secular, let' ; s put it that way. And so we went in on Yom Kippur and, uh, and Rosh Hashanah, which were pronounced Yom K-- Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah--(laughs)--and, uh, there I would meet other Jewish kids. And our experiences were much different, they from mine. Uh, and I was still a sharecropper' ; s kid. I was--the distinctions in--in socioeconomic groups extended not just to the gentile community but also the Jewish community, at least as far as I was concerned, okay? And, uh, they--they would have almost nothing to do with me. Perhaps it was as much my fault as it was, uh, theirs. They--they didn' ; t have common experiences with me. And nor I with them. And so I' ; m not condemning anybody. Uh, but I just didn' ; t have any Jewish friends. Uh, the, uh, and I did feel separated from them, while I did not feel separated from the gentile kids that I lived among, uh. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, who were also sharecroppers. HALPERN: Right. FERNHEIMER: Uh, what--can you tell me a little bit about--you said your dad wanted to enjoy the freedom of being out west. Uh, how did he--when did he come to the United States? And when--when did he get to Kentucky or how did he get to Kentucky? HALPERN: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Maybe that' ; s a better question. HALPERN: That' ; s--that' ; s quite a story. Uh, he landed in New York, uh, at age sixteen. I had an uncle there. FERNHEIMER: What year was that? HALPERN: Pardon. FERNHEIMER: What year approximately? HALPERN: Nineteen twelve. FERNHEIMER: Okay. HALPERN: Uh, he spent a couple years there. He went to this National Agricultural School, got caught up for a short while in World War I, and after that, uh, he, uh, when he graduated from this agricultural school, uh, he started looking for a job, you know. And someone in Oklahoma, uh, was looking for somebody to--to work. And so he went there. He worked, uh, with this fellow for a while. FERNHEIMER: What years was that approximately? HALPERN: Uh, early twenties. And, uh, then my--my father was, uh, was physically extremely strong. He was, uh, he had arms on him like this. Uh, you know, he was only about five-seven, but, uh, he was--he was a heck of a guy, uh, physically. Uh, and so he decided to join the wheat harvest after he left this farm. Uh, he was working out for this guy. And the--the wheat harvest used to go all the way from Texas all the way, you know, almost to the, uh, Canadian border I guess. And, uh, he would, uh, he worked with them. Uh. FERNHEIMER: What does that mean, to join the wheat harvest? To travel from s-- HALPERN: --okay. They hired guys, you know, uh, hired people. They had a threshing machine. And, uh, they would--in those days you' ; d--you' ; d cut the wheat. Uh, put the--bring the stuff on in a wagon. Offload it. And you had a stationary, uh, thresher. And somebody would--would--would throw this, uh, the--the, uh, wheat into the threshing machine and it would thresh it and throw out, uh, the, uh, the straw. And the--the grain would go in the next direction. And, uh, they would stay there until they cleared these giant fields, uh, and, uh, today you have, uh, you know, machines that are, uh, do that. And then of course they' ; re much more efficient. But in those days it took, uh, took young strong men to do that, uh, because it was brutal work and went long hours. Anyway he did that for a while. Then we had, uh, family in Lexington, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Ah. Okay. HALPERN: Uh, there was, uh, uh, uh, uh, a fellow th-- th-- that was his uncle, Uncle Yankel and his wife Malka. They lived in Lexington. And, uh, he--he bought roots and herbs from the Kentucky mountains. Th-- there' ; s all sorts of things there. Wild root (??), ginseng, uh, sassafras, uh, all sorts of things like that grew in the Kentucky mountains. And--and-- FERNHEIMER: --and they were also Halpern or they were, uh. HALPERN: Pardon. FERNHEIMER: Were they also Halperns or did they have a different last name? HALPERN: No, no, these are just mountain folks. Uh. FERNHEIMER: No, no, your uncle. HALPERN: Oh, uh, uh, the, uh, no. The, uh, th-- they--Uncle Yankel was, uh, uh, I don' ; t know whether the name--last name was Halpern or not. I just--all I--I remember is, uh, Uncle Yankel and, uh, and, uh, and his wife, uh, Malka. And we had, uh, other, uh, uh, Tanta Neya lived here. And I don' ; t know. I don' ; t remember the last name there either. (laughs) Uh, she had two daughters. Uh, they lived, uh, here in Lexington. Uh. FERNHEIMER: Who were her daughters? Do you remember? Or no? HALPERN: I--I don' ; t--I don' ; t really remember their last names. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s fine. HALPERN: Kresner. Kresner. FERNHEIMER: Kresner? Okay. HALPERN: Kresner. Right, uh. FERNHEIMER: And the daughters' ; first names? I' ; m sorry to be nitpicky. We' ; re going to try and track some of this, so-- HALPERN: --uh, th-- th-- dor-- w-- one of them' ; s name was, uh, Dora and Golda. FERNHEIMER: Okay. That' ; s it. HALPERN: That was Tanta Neya' ; s daughters. FERNHEIMER: Okay. HALPERN: Uh, and Dora had a daughter by the name of Shirley. And that was all the family we had here, uh, in Lexington. Uh, we had, uh, an--I had, uh, an aunt who, uh, lived in Chicago. She and her husband came here, uh, in 1940. Uh, there was an exposition here. They came over here and they stayed. They were living in France at the time. FERNHEIMER: Who? And who are they? HALPERN: Uh, my--her--my aunt' ; s name was Gitta and, uh, uh, what' ; s Aunt Gitt' ; s last-- F: Berget. HALPERN: Berget, Berget, Berget. F: Sorry. FERNHEIMER: No, that' ; s all right. HALPERN: They were from, uh, they lived in France. Uh, my father as I said was from Lithuania. He had, uh, a lot of brothers and sisters. Uh, they, uh, two came over here. One, uh, stayed in New York. And, uh, uh, then Aunt Gitt was in Chicago. Uh, from his mother' ; s side there was Uncle Sam Schwartz, uh, who was a physician in New York City. And, uh, uh, Uncle I. J. Schwartz, who was a poet and-- FERNHEIMER: --that was from your mother' ; s side? HALPERN: Uh, no, that was from my father' ; s side. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m sorry. HALPERN: My--my father' ; s mother' ; s side of the family. They were--they were Schwartz. Uh, all these people f-- from around Kovno. Uh, all Lithuania. Uh. FERNHEIMER: I. J. wrote the poem Kentucky. HALPERN: Right. He wrote the poem Kentucky. He ran, a, uh, a dry goods store. I met him. I don' ; t remember much about him. I remember a shock of white hair from, uh, a man about five-six or something like that. Uh, and, uh, I remember it was always his--his wife out there working while he wrote. (laughs) She--she ran the business, he wrote, you know, and-- FERNHEIMER: --and his wife was--who was his wife? HALPERN: Uh. FERNHEIMER: I can look that up. HALPERN: I can' ; t remember. I--I can' ; t remember. I was--I was very young at that time. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. HALPERN: I guess I was about five. Uh, but, uh, anyway the, uh, Uncle Yankel bought these roots and herbs and things like that from the mountains and he traveled with a packhorse in that time. Uh, the pack pony. Because there, you know, there weren' ; t roads. And he got sick or something like that and Dad took his, uh, route one time. FERNHEIMER: Oh. HALPERN: And, uh, he got to see Kentucky and he really, uh, really liked what he saw. And he began working here. He went back to New York, and he married my mother. Uh, he knew her from before. They had corresponded. He--he married her and took her from Brooklyn, New York, and she' ; d probably never been out of New York City, to a sharecropping farm in Kentucky, which I' ; ve always thought defines, uh, uh, culture shock. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Did her family react positively, negatively, uh, in general? HALPERN: Uh, my--my mother was an orphan. Uh, her mother died, uh, shortly before, uh, she got here. Uh, she was raised by, uh, uh, uh, an aunt and some other people. Uh, and she had worked, uh, in the Lower East Side. Uh, she--from the time she was thirteen years old, uh, uh, and, uh, she used to tell Brooklyn stories of the time, you know, uh, the, uh, you know, between, you know, uh, I guess she went to work when she was, uh, it was probably about in 1908 or 1909. Uh, she was, uh, uh, working. She--she put ostrich feathers in ladies' ; hats. Uh, this was, uh, a big deal back then. You know, uh, uh, I know nothing really about it. I know she was--(clears throat)--she knew well of the Triangle fire, the disastrous fire in New York City that--that changed, uh, a lot of the industrial practices of the time. Anyway he married her, took her to Kentucky, and they began cropping. And, uh, you know, working out. And, uh, she entered into the social structure of the sharecropping community and, uh, they taught her how to--to, uh, cook Southern style. She cooked Southern style all her life except for the gefilte fish she--she used to make, uh. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Only on holidays or year-round? HALPERN: Uh, every now and then. You know, I used to do a lot of fishing when I was a kid and I' ; d bring home all sorts of stuff. And they used to make gefilte fish out of carp. FERNHEIMER: Right. HALPERN: And the Kentucky River used to be loaded with carp. And so I' ; d bring them home and she' ; d make gefilte fish out of them. You grind them up and boil them and, uh, the odor in the house at that time, I always found things to do at other parts of the farm at that time. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: (laughs) Because man, it stunk. But the end result tasted great. FERNHEIMER: And did you have your--your friends or your fellow neighbors in? Did they also eat your mother' ; s gefilte fish? HALPERN: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. The--the--the way--the way in which in those times, uh, you entertained, uh, you' ; d drop in. Anyone, uh, no, uh, it was always on a weekend because during the week you were just working like mad. But somebody' ; d show up to your house, you' ; d entertain them with food. You know, uh, you didn' ; t have anything else. And so, uh, you' ; d sit around, have dinner, you know, and of course, uh, uh, during the harvest time the sharecroppers used to be--used to do what was known as swapping work. In short you and, uh, if you had a son would--would work and the other guy who, uh, would--he and his kids would jump in and you' ; d put the--both crops in the barn. Because you--you needed, uh, the extra help. Uh, tobacco is a very labor-intensive job. It was all done by hand in those times. I mean that' ; s what you did. You know. And so you swapped work. And, uh, at dinnertime--or lunchtime. Uh, the big meal was at noon. And it was eaten quickly, you know. Uh, and in great quantity. You cannot, you know, you' ; d been up since 4:30 getting the chores done before you hit the fields, you know, uh, you--the dew had to get off the tobacco, uh, uh, or whatever you were trying to--to work on before you could, uh, work. But you' ; d been up since 4:00, 4:30, uh, and it was now noon. And you' ; d been burning calories like mad. And when--when you got to, uh, the table--and you always ate in the kitchen. Uh, that' ; s--that' ; s where everything existed. Uh, in the--in the farmhouse. The woman was in the kitchen. And everything would be centered around there. That was just the way the society worked. The dining room was left for special occasions. It was rarely used, you know. Maybe four, five times a year. And, uh, to what--it was--it was like sharks at a feeding frenzy. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: It was amazing, uh, how much was eaten and how quickly it was eaten. Uh, and then you' ; d hit the fields again. Then you worked till almost dark and, you know, you had to get the--after that you had to get the cows. And, uh, do the milking. And all of that kind of stuff. All the chores. Then you went in and by this time you were near a state of collapse. Uh, and you washed up a little bit. Uh, uh, uh, you had a tub, uh, I' ; m not talking about a bathtub, I' ; m talking about a tub. You washed up in that. And you just crashed. And then next morning did the same thing again. FERNHEIMER: Uh, roughly what time did you guys crash? HALPERN: Uh, well, uh, I would imagine by the time we had eaten and everything, uh, if it was summertime, uh, 9:30, maybe ten o' ; clock, uh. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s a long day. HALPERN: Oh. (laughs) Talk about it. Yeah, incredible. FERNHEIMER: Wow. HALPERN: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: But you said folks would drop in on the weekends. And I presume on the weekends there was less working. Did your family have any kind of Sabbath observance? Or no? HALPERN: Uh, we just took the Sabbath as, uh, observance when all the people around us did, which happened to be a Sunday, you know. And, you know, we never went to, uh, uh, uh, church. We went to--went to the High Holidays. Y-- Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah. That was it. And oh yeah, we used to buy matzo, uh, for Passover, uh. FERNHEIMER: Huh. Where did you buy it? HALPERN: Uh, bought it in, uh, from Mr. Goller. You know, he had a--he sold matzo too. You know, it was a butcher shop but he sold other things too that were kosher for Passover. He was, uh, he was quite a fellow was this butcher. You know, you had to know him to appreciate him. FERNHEIMER: Where was his shop roughly? HALPERN: It wasn' ; t too far from where we sit right now. Uh, it was pretty close to the synagogue because he was--he was very religious and, uh, he would walk of course, uh, on the Sabbath, uh, to shul. And so it was near--I keep thinking it was Third Avenue or High Street where the--where the--the Conservative synagogue was. He was a cantor there, uh, Mr. Goller. And, uh. FERNHEIMER: I wonder if it was where Joe Bologna' ; s is now. HALPERN: Uh. FERNHEIMER: Thought it, uh, the Italian restaurant is where one of the old synagogues was but-- HALPERN: --this is an Italian restaurant? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And w-- I' ; ll walk you over there afterward. HALPERN: Yeah. M-- maybe, uh, uh, I just don' ; t know. Uh, there were only, uh, two synagogues. There was the temple and there was--there was the, uh, Conservative, uh, synagogue. FERNHEIMER: Mm. HALPERN: And, uh, he had a great big beard and he, uh, used to sing, uh, you know, all of the--the, uh, uh, holy songs. And, uh. FERNHEIMER: You said he was the cantor at the Conservative synagogue? HALPERN: He--he cantored. Right, uh, I mean, uh, uh, okay, wasn' ; t J-- Jan Peerce. (laughs) Uh, or a Metropolitan Opera star like--like, uh, in New York City. But, uh, he--he was very emotional, tears used to run from the--down his face and soak into his beard. I remember that very distinctly. And, uh, he had a s-- the saddest voice in some of the w-- in some of the stuff that he--he would sing. Uh, and I describe it in here as--as sounding like he had a rock on his heart. Uh, it--it did seem that way. He was--he was very blunt. He was extremely honest. Uh, you know, you knew where you--you sat all the time that--(laughs)--he--he was not exactly what you would call a, uh, the kind of a guy who, uh, made the customer first. Uh, if you, uh, the--the women would go in. And they would want, uh, he would say--he' ; d cut everything off the same piece of meat. Steak. Steak. Bam. Chops. Chops. Bam. (laughs) Roast. Roast. Bam. (laughs) That was it. (laughs) He used to call, uh, uh, many of the women that came in there old yentas. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. (laughs) HALPERN: Uh, that was, uh, but he--he loved my father. And my family. Uh, that' ; s how I got-- FERNHEIMER: How did they--did your family go, uh, did they buy meat from him? Or how did they get to know one another? HALPERN: No, no, uh, we--we had our own meat, uh. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s-- HALPERN: --uh, we were--we weren' ; t kosher. Uh, uh, we used to bring in, uh, stuff from the farm for him. He, you know, we had a lot of chickens, a lot of eggs, we' ; d bring in eggs. We' ; d bring in milk. We' ; d bring in cream. We' ; d, you know, produce that we were growing. We always had huge--my father put out gigantic gardens. He always put out way way too much, uh, you know, the--there' ; s no possibility of anybody eating that much food. Uh, but we would give it away, you know, uh, the, uh, he, uh, he was very funny about that. I never really understood about, uh, when I was about fifteen or sixteen years old, he decided that we ought to have some strawberries. And so we had a, uh, an area that, uh, was about a half acre in size. And, uh, he said to me one day this--we had our own farm at this time. He said, " ; Sam, go down the s--, uh, to Scothorn' ; s store," ; which was a general store at the bottom of the hill. " ; Get enough plants for a half acre of strawberries." ; And so I said, " ; Dad, you know, half acre of strawberries, I mean, there' ; s no," ; by this time there was only three of us. Uh, Mom, Dad, and me. Said, " ; You know, there' ; s no way we can eat that much, uh, strawberries." ; He said, " ; No." ; He says, " ; Get enough for a half acre of strawberries." ; So I went down and, uh, asked, uh, Mr. Scothorn for enough plants for a half acre of strawberries. And he looked at me like I was crazy but he sold me enough. So we put it out and of course it just--everything Dad touched, it was, uh, grew in the earth. Just grew with incredible abundance. And so there were so many strawberries you cannot believe it. And I used to go in the strawberry patch and I would check over the strawberries. I would only eat it--eat one if it was perfect. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: It had to be perfect. Or I wouldn' ; t eat it. I was--talk about spoiled. Oh. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: So what did you do with all the strawberries in the end? HALPERN: I would eat myself silly and then I' ; d go in the house, you know, and Mom would say, " ; You' ; re not eating your dinner. What' ; s wrong?" ; Uh, I don' ; t know, I' ; m just not--(laughs). FERNHEIMER: (laughs) So did your family keep all the strawberries or did they-- HALPERN: --no, we used to give them away, just l-- like, you know, the--there were friends, uh, you know, we--we' ; d just give them away. FERNHEIMER: Huh. Wow. So your dad, uh, grew close with Mr. Goller just from these exchanges, bringing the crops in? HALPERN: Right, from the exchanges, right. And, uh, the, uh, that was--that was probably the only close, really close Jewish friend he--he had in Lexington. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So you kind of took us through a typical working day in the sharecropper' ; s life. Can you tell us a little bit about what a typical I guess Sunday would look like with folks dropping in or-- HALPERN: --well, Sunday would start with doing up the chores. You know, but, you know, we' ; d get up late, 5:30, you know. (laughs) To--to do up the--the chores and come in and then, uh, after that we used to go out and take a look at the stock and that sort of thing. Wander around. In my case whenever I wasn' ; t working, uh, this is when we had our own farm. I was fishing. I used to, uh, uh, fish a lot. Dad stocked our own farms with--our own ponds with, uh, bass and--and, uh, bluegill and fish like that. And that supplied the house with--with fish. Whenever, uh, Mom decided we ought to have fish she' ; d say, " ; Uh, go get me some--some fish." ; I' ; d go down. It didn' ; t take long because they were really productive, uh, uh, ponds and I' ; d get a couple of good size, uh, bass and a few bluegill and bring them back to the house and she' ; d prepare them. FERNHEIMER: Wow. I want to switch gears a little bit to talk about, uh, uh, I' ; m going to come back because I w--, uh, give you some time to let things percolate. But I want to sw-- I know you did your undergraduate here at the University of Kentucky. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about how you made the jump from sharecropping out, uh, uh, uh. HALPERN: Okay. FERNHEIMER: Out in yonder I guess. And coming here to the university to study, uh. HALPERN: Well-- FERNHEIMER: --tell me a little bit about that path. HALPERN: To begin with, I always thought I' ; d be a farmer, you know. Uh, and when I was, you know, fifteen, maybe sixteen, my, uh, sister, my oldest sister, brought home, uh, a young man for, uh, to meet the family. A man she would later marry. And he was getting his PhD in physics from, uh, Brooklyn Polytech Institute in New York City. And, uh, he was a really good baseball player. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: And I loved baseball. Oh, I loved it. Uh, and so he would get out with me and throw a ball around, you know, and he was--he was just great. And, uh, then I--he would talk about the stuff that he was doing, you know, I' ; d--I' ; d keep asking, " ; What are you doing? What are you doing? What is physics?" ; You know, uh, I didn' ; t, you know, uh, the school I went to, uh, you know, I didn' ; t--didn' ; t have, uh, a physics course. Actually it had one my senior year. Uh. FERNHEIMER: How old were you when you were playing ball with him? HALPERN: I was about sixteen maybe. I was sixteen. Uh, and so-- FERNHEIMER: --and how old was your sister that-- HALPERN: --my sister at that time was ten years older. She' ; s ten years older than me. Uh, and, uh, I, uh, decided I was going to go to the University of Kentucky and become a physicist. And I started out in physics at UK. And I found out it was hard. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: What year was that? HALPERN: This was 1953. FERNHEIMER: Okay. HALPERN: And, uh, so I spent a couple years in physics. And it became obvious to me that, uh, you know, uh, even if I became, uh, a physicist, uh, I was never going to be able to compete with some of the guys who were really good in math. You know, I mean if you' ; re going to go into physics you better be good in math and it helps to be really great in math and I wasn' ; t even good. I was mediocre. And so I decided well, I took a course in archeology. And it was just a wonderful course. I loved it. And, uh, when I was, uh, very young I read a lot about, uh, Greek civilization, Greek, uh, the Greek gods and all the things. And so, uh, I decided I would get a PhD in archeology and-- FERNHEIMER: --this is when you were in college? You decide-- HALPERN: --this is, uh, when I was still at UK. And so there was a guy by the name of Dr. Buck (??), uh, who, uh, taught the course in archeology. And of course I got an A in that because I loved it so much, you know, I just really studied it. And so he used to go every year to Delphi and dig in the summers. And so, uh, I said to him, " ; Uh, Dr. Buck, you know, I' ; d like to get a PhD in archeology." ; And he said to me--his words were " ; Are you a millionaire' ; s son?" ; I said, " ; No, I' ; m a farmer' ; s." ; He said, " ; Well, my dad is a millionaire." ; Says, " ; I don' ; t have to make a living. But you got to make a living. And you' ; re never going to make more than about $5,000 a year in archeology. And so if I were you I' ; d find something else to do and keep it as a hobby." ; Well, you know, being a farm boy, when you--when you say, " ; Uh, you got to make a living," ; that--that, you know, that means something. So I decided okay, uh, I really like physiology. And so from that it--it just kept on going. And I, uh, decided to go to--to medical school and maybe get a PhD in physiology and--and that was one way of, uh, of doing it. And then my friends went on, uh, uh, to finish medical school, and I went on with them. And then, uh, I decided well, I' ; m going to do an internship. I can always practice medicine if physiology, uh, collapses. So I did my internship. And then the Vietnam War, uh, started cranking up. And, uh, I entered the service after my, uh, my internship and spent a couple years there and then went back. And by this time I--I quit with the--the physiology. And I went into internal medicine, spent, uh, three years in that, and then, uh, got interested in nuclear medicine because it afforded the chance to do research of a kind that was very interesting and kind of groundbreaking. I did a year of clinical and, uh, research, uh, uh, in nuclear medicine. And then went, uh, I got to--went to California to the UCLA, uh, Wadsworth VA system and did a, uh, a fellowship in, uh, in radio-pharmaceuticals. And then a job opened up at UCSD and I took the job and I spent an entire career there. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Uh, that sounded like a lot of years between your undergraduate experience starting in 1953 and-- HALPERN: --oh yeah. FERNHEIMER: When did you start in California? Just--and then I want to come back to UK and hear a little bit more about what life was like then. HALPERN: I, uh, OK, well, from the time I started in UK, that was four years. And a year of internship. Uh, then did four years of medical school, that' ; s eight years, internship is nine years, uh, uh, three years internal medicine, uh, that' ; s twelve. And two years of nuclear m-- one year of nuclear medicine, uh, thirteen. And, uh, the year of radiochemistry is fourteen. Fourteen years after high school. FERNHEIMER: Wow. HALPERN: Uh, so, uh, it was--after a while, uh, you need a job, you know. You-- FERNHEIMER: --you have to make that living. HALPERN: You got to make a living, right. And so, uh, that was--that was the trick. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit about what life was like at the University of Kentucky in the fifties? Uh, did you--did you associate? Did you encounter more Jews at UK? Did you ass-- I know there was the Hillel here. I know there was a Jewish fraternity here. Were you-- HALPERN: --right. FERNHEIMER: Did you interact with them or know about them? HALPERN: N-- not really. Uh, a little bit. Uh, I knew a couple guys at ZBT. Uh, but I never pledged a fraternity or anything. Uh, the--my senior year, uh, a group of doctors here in, uh, the, uh, at UK, uh, had a house that they allowed some premed students to move into free of charge. Uh, and we named it Lambda Alpha Delta. I have no idea why we named it Lambda Alpha Delta. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: But we did. And so we called it a premed fraternity. Uh, and, uh, there were ten or twelve of us, something like that. Uh, but other than that, uh, you know, and--and, uh, knowing guys. Uh, I knew--I knew some Jewish people. Uh, but there weren' ; t a lot on campus, uh, not very many. Some of the kids from, uh, New York and some of the eastern states, uh, came to, uh, the University of Kentucky, uh, Jewish kids. Uh, were interested in going to medical school. It was--in those years there was, uh, an unspoken quota on the number of Jewish kids who were going to get into medical schools. And it was very hard to get into one in Massachusetts or, uh, New York. Uh, but, uh, in the South it was a bit easier. And so they would spend a year or two at the University of Kentucky, uh, after, you know, they--they did a couple years back in--in New York or Boston or someplace like that. And become citizens of the state and go to, uh, University of Louisville or apply to other Southern schools and that was easier to get in. So I knew a few of them. Uh, the, uh, but mostly the class was, uh, there' ; d be maybe five or six or a little more, uh, Jewish kids in the medical school class at the University of Louisville. Uh, you' ; ll be interested to know there were only, uh, two women in the class of about a hundred. FERNHEIMER: Huh. HALPERN: There was one black person. FERNHEIMER: Wow. HALPERN: In the class of about a hundred. Uh, and that' ; s the, uh, the way it went. Uh, it was, uh, it was a very difficult time for women in medicine. Uh, it' ; s much different, uh, now of course. Uh, which at UCSD, uh, before I, uh, left there were--the class was, uh, more--more women were in the class than men in the entering classes. FERNHEIMER: Oh wow. Just in the time that you were there as professor? Or-- HALPERN: --uh, as professor, right. The, uh, women in medicine today, they' ; ve in-- have invaded the, uh, the sacrosanct areas that were set to--would never have women in them. For example orthopedics. That was a--a man' ; s profession. No woman was going to go in there. But they' ; re in there now. And lots of them. Neurosurgery. There were--weren' ; t any women. But there' ; s a lot of them now. You know, it' ; s a, uh, it' ; s a different-- FERNHEIMER: --why was, uh, orthopedics known as--as, uh. HALPERN: I don' ; t know. I guess it had to do with muscle and bone and you think of men when you think of muscle and bone. At least back then. FERNHEIMER: Huh. HALPERN: You know, this was b-- before the, uh, the age in which, uh, Lindsey Vonn was, uh, going down the--the slopes at a rate which was unbelievable, you know, and--and you had women basketball players who, uh, guys got out there with them, uh, you know, they were going to have to strain hard to keep their rears from getting kicked. You know, uh, uh, things have changed. Things have--things have gotten much more egalitarian, uh, as far as I see in my seventy-nine years than they used to be. And at the same time, uh, problems exist that, uh, are probably more egregious now than--than back then. Uh, it' ; s an evolving, uh, country and always will be. Uh. FERNHEIMER: Now that you' ; re talking about how things have changed and how they' ; ve stayed the same, uh, I wonder what--what' ; s it like to be back in Kentucky now, having grown up here? And what--what stayed the same? What' ; s changed? Uh. HALPERN: Well, uh, uh, my remarks now will be in regard to, uh, central Kentucky where we sit rather than where our farm was in northern Kentucky. There the culture was considerably different than it was in--in central Kentucky. Central Kentucky was Southern. Uh, its roots are Southern. Uh, and as I look at it now, uh, I know that--that for example the--the place, the sharecropping farms that, uh, the one that this book is written about, uh, went down there, uh, uh, right after, uh, back in, uh, the late seventies, uh, I took my wife and, uh, back there and, uh, everything was dilapidated and falling down. And now, uh, since that time, uh, I' ; ve gone back there and everything, it looks like a horse farm. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Wow. HALPERN: Uh, but, uh, as I walk among these--or drive among these buildings, uh, uh, new things have sprouted up. Uh, uh, Kentucky or at least Lexington is now a hub I know of, uh, of corporate, uh, headquarters. Uh, IBM used to be here. Toyota is here. Uh, you know, uh, around here. The, uh, central Kentucky when I was here was built on basically three things. Uh, uh, tobacco, uh, horses, uh, and just the general agrarian type of life. I--it' ; s my perception that this has moved more away from the agrarian type of existence. Although, you know, uh, I say this without, uh, having the--the amount of data that I would need to be able to say that, you know, prove that, uh, but it' ; s the feeling that I get. Uh, I--we walked past the University of Kentucky and some of the buildings I recognized. But it' ; s so much different now. It' ; s--it' ; s built up. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. HALPERN: Uh, there were buildings back then like for example the old armory which I' ; m pretty sure had heard musket balls go past it. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: Uh, I don' ; t know. Uh, you know, I was--I was looking downstairs at the pictures and, uh, you--you got to watch going past pictures as you get my age. Because you see all these pictures of people that you knew and are all dead. (laughs) Th-- that kind of gets your attention. But I recognized, uh, well, uh, all sorts of, uh, folks. Uh, presidents of the, uh, university. Uh, Dr. White (??), who was the--the, uh, uh, dean of students at that time, uh. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. HALPERN: The, uh, you know, lots and lots of different things. And the pictures that you show of, uh, uh, I looked at one. And, uh, here' ; s this--this farm. And there' ; s a whole flock of chickens. I looked at them. Oh, these are leghorns. You know, and, uh, looked at the--the hogs this guy was raising. And I recognized Hampshires and--and Poland China, uh, different kinds of--of hogs and--and beef cattle. You know, these are, uh, that sort of thing. That' ; s--that' ; s what you would see. And of course the, uh, magnificent horses, uh, that, uh, uh, were on these horse farms and, you know, the--in those days the horse farms were--well, I' ; m sure they' ; re still very beautiful. And you could go on them. Uh, I knew some of those horses. Uh, uh, I met Man o' ; War bef-- before he died. He--he died at a very old age. I knew Citation and Coaltown, which, uh, Citation was a Triple Crown winner and he always beat his, uh, stablemate Coaltown in--in all these races. They were contemporaries of each other. Uh, but, you know, uh, I met Ben Jones, uh, who was a great trainer. And the only thing I ever knew him as was, uh, Mr. Ben. I had no idea, you know, uh, at age ten that he was world-famous, you know, and had, uh, uh, you know, all these famous friends. FERNHEIMER: Many--many of the things that you' ; re talking about right now kind of make an appearance. And you' ; ve been mentioning the book in your hands the whole time. So I finally want to ask you about the book. Uh, which I know you' ; ve written. Uh, you said that it took you forty years to write it. Can you tell me a little bit about your process for writing A Far Piece? HALPERN: (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And, uh, kind of what made you make the jump. I mean you made a lot of really fascinating changes, right? From sharecropping to university to physics to archeology to medicine. And now back to--to writing and literature. HALPERN: I used to think things happened to me. I just lived life. And things just seemed to happen to me. Uh, I' ; ve always been interested in writing. Uh, my first, uh, foray into the writing world was, uh, in red crayon on our wall when I was about four years old, which-- FERNHEIMER: --(laughs). HALPERN: To say that it upset my mom. (laughs) Uh, then, you know, uh, I continued interested--being interested in writing. But, you know, I--I didn' ; t know you could make a living doing it. And, uh, so I continued to write a little bit. Uh, when I was at the University of Kentucky I wrote a couple stories, uh, in my freshman English class. FERNHEIMER: Oh yeah? HALPERN: You used to have to take two years of--of--of English, uh, uh, one, uh, you--you would write what was known as, uh, they were known as themes back then. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. HALPERN: You would read a book and you would write a theme about it. And, uh, my, uh, my concept of, uh, English grammar was, uh, slightly better, uh, is slightly better now than it was then. It' ; s never been that great. My wife always looks over everything that I write. And, uh, you know, corrects it. Uh, my, uh, I make all sorts of grammatical mistakes. Uh, capitalization has always escaped me except for the start of the--each sentence. I understand that. But beyond that I' ; m not very good at it. But, uh, I wrote on this book first the children' ; s story. And I, uh, I finished it. And my research--by this time I was in, uh, practice, uh, I was a prof at, uh, UCSD. And my research started really heating up. And there just wasn' ; t enough time to write. Uh, I used to get up at 5:30 in the morning and write for an hour. Finally, you know, you just can' ; t do that. And as things got hotter and hotter it was just impossible to do. Uh, the academic career was very demanding. So after finishing that I kind of hung them up for a while. And about, uh, twenty years later-- FERNHEIMER: --when was that initially? The first foray into the children' ; s book? HALPERN: Uh, that was probably back, uh, late sixties I started, uh, writing on that. And, uh, I--I started. After I--after I semiretired I read the book over. It was pretty good, I thought. But a different man wrote it. You know, I was no longer the young man. I was--wasn' ; t close to these kids like I was before. And I wondered what had happened to Freddie (??) and Sam. I got to thinking about it. And I decided I would write the book, the rest of the story. And I did. And then I just merged the two and honed it and was lucky enough to get an agent who was lucky enough to, uh, find a publisher, HarperCollins, was a guy at HarperCollins who really liked it. And they published it and meantime I' ; ve written other stuff. Uh, one I actually, uh, labored long and hard on and--and--and it was never published, I' ; ll go back to it someday, and another one I' ; m hoping to have ready for, uh, my agent in, uh, this year. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So it' ; s--this commitment to writing, uh, I mean you describe it as an early childhood commitment, literally onto the walls of your parents' ; house, uh, that has followed you your whole life, and in fact it is your life that you write about in A Far Piece and I wonder if you could tell--talk a little bit about the way that you use this fictional representation to communicate important things or--that you' ; ve learned or that you want to take away from your real life experiences growing up here in Kentucky. Uh, Kentucky doesn' ; t always have the best reputation as a state. HALPERN: I know. The, uh, I like the people of Kentucky. I enjoy them. I liked them back when I lived here. And, you know, my high school graduating class, they' ; re my closest friends. I go back, uh, I' ; ve been back to see them many times. We just had our--(clears throat)--sixtieth high school reunion. Never admit that. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) That' ; s impressive. HALPERN: Yeah. And depressing at times. But anyway I' ; d like--I write it in here, uh, when the kids' ; story takes place, uh, in the 1940s, and as far as kids, uh, young people being able to identify with that or know what that was like, uh, this is like Brigadoon. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: You know? Uh, this couldn' ; t happen. Well, it did happen. This is--this was the life of the sharecropper. At least the white sharecropper. Things were tougher for the black sharecropper obviously. And this--the thing that' ; s unique about it is of course we were a Jewish family among these people and how we were treated and, you know, how--I' ; d like people to be able to see that. And, you know, I take a lot of, uh, everybody who writes a novel, uh, deep down, they want to make some, uh, some comments about how they see life. And I' ; m no different than anybody else. The, uh, the river plays an enormous part, uh, in the book of course. And, uh, every Southern writer uses the river. Twain used it. You know, you just go down the Southern writers and you' ; ll see the river, the river, the river. The river of course is life. And, uh, and one end of the river in Little Bend, uh, there' ; s a man who, uh, once good who became evil. And at the other end of the--the river at the Big Bend of the river is a--is a man who had been evil who became--did something good. And so defining good and evil becomes very very difficult under those circumstances. And all in between, you know, you--life occurs through--through all of it, you know, as you go along, and, uh, my--my old man in here who goes back to search for his roots at the urging of his wife, uh, recognizes this. And, uh, what he finds out is he' ; s--he' ; s trying to return to Canaan, his Canaan, uh, his land of milk and honey, and he isn' ; t sure what the land of milk and honey was, only thing he knows is ever since he left it and s-- some ideas, some concepts that he had from his youth, uh, on the farm, uh, that occurred by the age of twelve, uh, have played an enormous role in his life. Uh, he was living life by--trying to live life by precepts that he had learned as a kid and apply them to a different society. The one that he entered was much different. And the rules were not the same. And he was never able to deal with that. And as a consequence he was always running into trouble and to the point where he had basically at one time one friend that happened to be his wife, who was everything to him. And then of course, uh, you know, she dies. And she extracts the promise that he go back and examine what happened back there on the sharecropping farm. And that' ; s of course part of the story. When he goes back is when the story really begins. And so the story, what I would like people to get out of it, uh, I would like for them to understand what it was like in the sharecropping farms, what it was like to be a Diaspora Jew among these people and actually not be prosecuted--persecuted, to be accepted as one of them. And the fact that he was--there really wasn' ; t any difference, uh, except the cultural thing of having--of having a Jewish background from the rest of these people. He was a human just like they were. They accepted him as a human just like they were. There was no looking up or down, it was directly across, and that was the only thing this kid ever wanted, only thing the man ever wanted, was just to look across at somebody and just be a human being. And, uh, so I' ; d like them to understand that. Uh, and my comments of course on good and evil and what they are and what they mean and--and the difficulties that, uh, the human experience is in dealing with these issues. And Lord knows we got enough issues in 2015 to deal with. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. So you have many different identities as a doctor, as a professor, as a sharecropper, as a Jewish man. What would--as a Kentuckian out west. W-- of all those different identities w-- what kind of resonates with you now in this contemporary moment? And--and h-- how does it sort of shape who--who you are, who you' ; ve become, or who you' ; re continuing to become? Uh. HALPERN: Well, I think what it really means to me is I' ; m better able to see myself as just a human being. Anybody--the vast majority of people regardless of whether--of their race, creed, color, religion, whatever, they' ; re all the--all have the same degree of intelligence. And let' ; s face it. If you--you--you, uh, all of us, uh, crawled out of the--the, uh, the--the caves of Africa, from Olduvai Gorge and places like that. And, uh, here we are two hundred thousand years later and explaining how the universe works. I mean, uh, and so everything is--it just--the human has just taken one step after another. One step after another over the last couple hundred thousand years. And we' ; ve gotten where we w-- we are. And, uh, so I don' ; t see myself as--as any--any one thing in there as defining me. The--the--the--the cohort of all these things are me. I just--I just took one step after another and things happened, you know, uh, that' ; s all. FERNHEIMER: One of the more recent things that has happened is your son and his column. HALPERN: (laughs) FERNHEIMER: And so I--I want, uh, while I' ; ve got you here I want to ask you what it--what it feels like to be refracted through Shit My Dad Says. Uh, and, you know, what--how you think the personality behind your son' ; s column has impacted the way that people conceptualize Kentucky, uh. HALPERN: Well--(clears throat)--it would amaze you-- FERNHEIMER: --(laughs)-- HALPERN: --how many, uh, uh, I have a Facebook page obviously. Uh, uh, uh, you sell books with a Facebook page, okay? Uh, it would amaze you how many people have written in and said, " ; My dad was just like that." ; You know, when my--the--the story behind Shit My Dad Says. You--you--you--it' ; s--it' ; s really an interesting story. The, uh, my son for personal reasons one time, uh, decided to come home. He was a man already, uh, in his late twenties. And, uh, he had, uh, some problems. And, uh, he was already, uh, writing and making a living writing. Uh, uh, he was, uh, writing online. And, uh, he was doing very well working. He worked for Maxim, uh, magazine online. And, uh, he, uh, would work at the dining room table and I would work at the dining room table with my writing. Both of us are--are writing. And one day he says to me, he says, " ; Dad, uh, I got something, uh, I need to talk to you about." ; All right. What do you want to talk about? And so in order to understand what he' ; s going to say in--in Shit My Dad Says, uh, the--the sayings in there, when he was about ten years old, uh, my wife went and started law school. And she was always the disciplinarian in the family. I was never the disciplinarian. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: And suddenly I had a huge amount to do with Justin. And I would tell Justin to do something, ask him to do it, and he would agree, " ; Uh, certainly, you know, I' ; ll get it done." ; He' ; d never do it. Uh, you know, uh, and he would finesse me at every--every step and the kid was smarter than me, you know, and--(laughs)--he was just outwitting me like mad. And I was trying to keep an academic career going and all that at the same time. And I was also his Little League coach. I didn' ; t know how to motivate Justin to do any of the things I wanted. One day I got there late for a practice, and, uh, there' ; s this dugout, and behind the dugout there' ; s these, uh, th-- this board fence. They can' ; t see me but I can hear them. And I was listening to this language as I came up and it was atrocious. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: It was absolutely--these were kids between eleven, twelve years old, and I could not believe what they were saying. And so anyway I' ; d spent a couple years in the navy, and so, uh, you know, I--I knew how to swear. And so I noticed that every time some of them would launch into this language nobody else would speak, they' ; d listen. And so I thought I can do that. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: So the next time Justin didn' ; t do what I wanted, I got in his face like a boatswain' ; s mate and I used these, uh, well, I--I said what I thought of him so he, uh, we--we established a brand-new relationship. Let' ; s put it--(laughs)--that way. Anyhow, getting back to the--where I began the story, he says, " ; Dad, you know, there' ; s some things you' ; ve got to know." ; And so okay, what--what are we talking about? He says, " ; Well, you know, those things that you' ; ve said to me over the years?" ; You know, and I would, uh, use things to, uh, use statements to make points that I considered important in--in--in teaching this kid. I said, " ; Yeah, so what?" ; He says, " ; Well, some of my friends want me to put them on Twitter." ; Well, at that time I didn' ; t know Twitter from nothing. You know, the social media completely passed me by. You know, I--that was not part of my--my existence. And I said, " ; Uh, oh? Uh, you put some of them on there?" ; And he said, " ; Yeah. And my--my buddies wanted me to put them on, so I--I put, uh, some on." ; And I said, " ; Oh." ; He said, " ; Well, there' ; s quite a few people who have read them." ; Oh? Uh, how many is, uh, quite a few? He said, " ; Quite a few." ; Said, " ; How many?" ; About two hundred thousand. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: (clears throat) So she comes home. FERNHEIMER: Your wife. HALPERN: My--my wife, uh, comes home, and-- FERNHEIMER: --Joni-- HALPERN: --we--Joni. We--we--we, uh, she figures out how we' ; re going to get on Twitter and, uh, see these things. And as I look at them I think oh my God, all my colleagues have--have read these things. The language that I used is--oh. And so anyway there--there I' ; m stuck with this, you know, there' ; s couple hundred thousand hits, uh, you know, people following it, uh, and so, uh, uh, Justin says to me, says, " ; Look, you want me to--you want me to take this down? I' ; ll take all this down." ; And, uh, I thought about it and I thought why now, you know, uh, the whole world has seen this, why--why take it down now. I said, " ; No, go ahead." ; You know, I thought maybe it' ; d help him in his career. And sure enough, uh, a while later he' ; s--a whole bunch of agents descended on him and he picked one of them and they, uh, he wrote up Sh*t My Dad Says, uh, using many of those aphorisms and, uh, they published it and it was a runaway best seller, it was wild. You know, everybody, uh, st-- had read this--this--this book. You know, and so, you know, organizations tried to get ahold of me to find out what I had to say about the book and things like that, and I always refused to make any comment. Uh, I mean this was Justin' ; s thing, he--he could take it as far as he wanted to, and so, uh, then there was this television show, uh, that, uh, Warner Brothers bought it, you know, and from that it went to, uh, a, uh, sitcom, uh, that starred, uh, William Shatner, you know, uh. FERNHEIMER: Who lives in Kentucky. HALPERN: Uh, r-- right. He--he spends--he' ; s got a farm in Kentucky, right. FERNHEIMER: In Lamfrage (??). HALPERN: Uh, and, uh, anyway, uh, it was--it was fascinating to--to see this man, uh, uh, portraying me on television. Uh, uh, especially since, you know, when Shatner was young, uh, one time in--in the office there--there was some women' ; s magazine we had lying around there. And there was an interview or something about William Shatner. He was voted one of the ten sexiest men in the United States. And I' ; ve always been as homely as a mud fence. And here this--this guy who was so--so, uh, so famous and handsome is portraying me. I got a big yak out of that. That--that I thought was really funny, you know. So anyway that' ; s how the thing came about. FERNHEIMER: So from your great-uncle I. J. to you to your son it seems like-- HALPERN: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --there' ; s some writing in the family. HALPERN: Right. And I have a, uh, a niece, Eileen Rendahl, uh, Eileen writes. Uh, she' ; s been published a lot. Uh, and, uh, my dad, uh, wrote his memoirs. Uh, he didn' ; t publish them. Uh, uh. FERNHEIMER: Oh, do you have them? HALPERN: Uh, uh, we have a copy at the house, uh, he and Joni sat down-- FERNHEIMER: --wow-- HALPERN: --and worked on them. Uh, and, uh. FERNHEIMER: Did you read them in preparation for writing Far Piece or-- HALPERN: --no, no. Uh, uh, I--I read that, uh, uh, uh, it didn' ; t have anything to--to do with--with that. It was basically, uh, things that happened, uh, in his life, uh, mostly as a--as a sharecropper, you know. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. HALPERN: Uh, he had a very interesting life, lived a very long life. He lived to be ninety-nine. FERNHEIMER: Wow. HALPERN: And, uh, he was a heck of a guy. Yeah, he really was. FERNHEIMER: Wow. HALPERN: He was--interestingly enough, uh, he had more education than any of the other croppers around. And there were times in which, uh, you know, there' ; d be disputes, uh, and, uh, they would come to Dad. Nobody could afford a lawyer, you know, this was back in the Depression. And they would--would ask him to adjudicate and he would tell them, " ; Look, I' ; m no lawyer, I don' ; t know, I' ; ll listen to what each of you has to say and I' ; ll give you my opinion. You, you know, this is what I would--this is what I think. And, uh, nobody' ; s bound by it. Okay?" ; Uh, but they would be bound by it. Uh, and he for years carried the nickname of Judge. That' ; s what they used to call him. Judge, what do you think about something? You know, uh, and, uh, uh, you know, it was, uh, he was quite a guy, uh. FERNHEIMER: So almost the exact opposite of--of anti-Semitism and ostra-- ostra-- if I can say the word we' ; ll be in business. Ostracization. Uh, he was looked up to as a pinnacle of the community it sounds like. HALPERN: Yes. Yes. Yes, he was. FERNHEIMER: And that was mainly because of his education? Or also because of his interactions with his fellow sharecroppers? HALPERN: It was a combination of things, one his education, the other the fact that he was known as an extremely honest, very decent person. Somebody who, uh, whose friendship you valued and whose decency you valued. And I, uh, it affected my life a lot. Uh, I learned from that. Uh, probably the most important things that he taught me. FERNHEIMER: And that--so and did that reputation follow him? I know that at one point you stopped sharecropping, right? And your father became what you refer to as a man of property. HALPERN: A man of property. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me about that transition? When it happened and--and what that meant? HALPERN: It happened instantaneously. When you became a man of property in Kentucky in those times right off the bat you were--you were different in the social structure. Immediately. I mean that' ; s--that' ; s part of the--the human psyche I guess. FERNHEIMER: And where was the farm that your family purchased? HALPERN: Northern Kentucky, uh, it' ; s called Boone County. Uh, the county seat of Boone County is Burlington. And, uh, to place it for you, you know where Covington is, you know where Cincinnati is. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. HALPERN: Covington is right across the river and we were about, uh, twelve, thirteen miles from Covington. So it was up close to the--to Cincinnati. FERNHEIMER: And you were how old when you all moved there? HALPERN: I' ; m sorry. FERNHEIMER: How old were you when you moved there? HALPERN: Uh, I was within three days of my fourteenth birthday. FERNHEIMER: Oh, when is your birthday? HALPERN: January ninth. FERNHEIMER: Okay. So you started up, uh, right before you were fourteen. Did you have a bar mitzvah? Did you become bar mitzvah? HALPERN: No. No. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Uh, and did your family interact with the community up there any more than they did while they were sharecropping or no? HALPERN: Yeah. Uh, we, uh, we became friends with a family that escaped the, uh, you know, lived through the Holocaust. FERNHEIMER: Huh. HALPERN: Uh, so we--we knew them. They were-- FERNHEIMER: --they were also farming? HALPERN: No. He ran--they ran a dry goods store in a place called Erlanger, which is, uh, in northern Kentucky. It' ; s about, I don' ; t know, seven or eight miles from Covington, something like that. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember their names or-- HALPERN: --uh. FERNHEIMER: You can think about it. HALPERN: I' ; m sorry, I' ; m blocking. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s okay, it' ; ll come back. Uh, but, uh, I know--the reason I' ; m asking these questions is because you were saying that there was, uh, a noticeable difference in the way that you were treated when your family would come in for the holidays. And you attributed it to your status as sharecropping. HALPERN: No. W-- we--we never, uh, uh, the--in--in Kentucky when we were sharecropping, uh, th-- there was a noticeable difference. Uh, but we didn' ; t get close enough to w--, uh, any, uh, group. And we went into Cincinnati-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. HALPERN: --uh, for the High Holidays. And we didn' ; t, uh, know any--I didn' ; t know anybody there. And they didn' ; t know us. And so, uh, there was nothing, uh, to set us apart. FERNHEIMER: Maybe, uh, uh, one last question kind of. What' ; s your most vivid memory from your experiences, limited as they were, with the Jewish community during that time? HALPERN: You mean, uh, as a--as a--a sharecropper? FERNHEIMER: As a young man here in Kentucky either as a sharecropper, at the University of Kentucky, just your most vivid memory. HALPERN: The most vivid memory w-- was--wasn' ; t a nice one. Uh, it was a, uh, a moment in which I was excluded from members of my own ethnic group. FERNHEIMER: Huh. HALPERN: Uh, at the synagogue. And Yom Kippur. It' ; s in--in this book. That--I remember that one more than anything else. Uh, the good one--good memories, uh, centered around Mr. Goller. (laughs) I, uh, he was--he was such a wonderful guy, you know, uh, and, uh, he really loved our family and we really loved him, you know. FERNHEIMER: So the--the experiences in Far Piece, they' ; re loosely fictionalized? More autobiographical? How would you describe them? HALPERN: Okay. The--the sharecropping experience is exactly the way it was. That' ; s--that' ; s what it w-- what it was like. And the, uh, the work, incredible amount of work, and, uh, the, uh, unfairness of the system. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. HALPERN: Uh, that' ; s all true. Uh, there' ; s no question about it. The, uh, the old man' ; s experiences, having been colored by his youth, uh, is true. Uh, it did affect my--my later life, all of my life. And the way in which I--I look at people. Uh, I find myself, uh, to this day looking straight across. I--I, uh, never looked up and I never looked down. Uh, and so it' ; s--it' ; s colored my view of humanity although I will admit that, uh, I have some, uh, sad feelings about our species, uh, similar to those of Stephen Hawking, uh, the other day when he was asked about, uh, uh, our, uh, human race. Uh, the fact that we seem hell-bent on destroying-- FERNHEIMER: --hm-- HALPERN: --ourselves. Uh, he didn' ; t put it in exactly that way but that' ; s exactly what he meant. Uh, and the--the fact that, uh, you can have an animal that is capable of doing cosmology, quantum mechanics, particle physics, and going to another, uh, going to the moon and--and the--and the other planets maybe and at the same time being barbaric enough to do some of the--the hideous things that we have accomplished, uh, over these, uh, the eons, uh. FERNHEIMER: Hm. HALPERN: That, uh, that bothers me a lot. Uh, when that will be--when that will change and what it will take to change that I don' ; t know. You know, I keep telling myself, you know, we' ; ve only been around couple hundred thousand years as--as a species and of that only about ten thousand of it is really, uh, civilization. And so, uh, you know, give them a chance, you know. (laughs) But things are moving at a rate now technologically-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- HALPERN: --scientifically so fast that no one can--can, uh, grasp it. Even people working in a particular field can' ; t get their head around all the stuff that' ; s going on. And the ability to disseminate it throughout the world at the speed of light is there. And it just feeds upon itself and it goes faster and faster and faster. And meanwhile socially we can' ; t go no faster. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. HALPERN: W-- we--it--it' ; s--it' ; s almost as though it' ; s holding us back. Uh, I' ; ve seen things that--that really bother me. Uh, I was, uh, uh. (laughs) At a Starbucks one day. And I looked at--at a, uh, one of the little tables. And there were two, uh, young women sitting there, probably about sixteen, seventeen years old. And they weren' ; t talking, they were texting each other. Sitting at the same table. They were texting each other. I mean humans--are we going to touch each other anymore? Uh, speak to each other anymore? Uh, the things that make us human are not technological. Uh, th-- they come from I guess you' ; d say a more primitive time. Uh, and I' ; m not sure when that time begins. But those are the things that seem to touch the--the social conscience of, uh, of the being, of--of the human being. And somehow that has to be brought to the fore. FERNHEIMER: Mm. HALPERN: Uh, we have to start seeing each other in the light of all of us being in the same pot together, uh, all 7.2 or 7.3 billion of us. And if we don' ; t, Hawking is going to be right. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Well, I, uh, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask you so many questions and-- HALPERN: --it' ; s been my pleasure-- FERNHEIMER: --not just once but twice today. Uh, but I also want to give you the opportunity if there' ; s anything that you wanted to touch on that I didn' ; t happen to ask you about, uh, that you think is really important to have recorded, uh, about your experiences as a--as a Jewish person in Kentucky, as a sharecropper in the Jewish community, as a sharecropper in Kentucky, any of those, as a student here at UK. I gave you a lot of options. HALPERN: There is one thing I would--I would like people to consider. When you--when you listen to the television, see movies, listen to, uh, read the paper, read whatever, I would like people to think. Don' ; t take things just rote, because you can go from one thing to another as--as happens from a sharecrop to a professor. Uh, when you--when you read something, uh, when--when you--when you see something, don' ; t take it at face value. Think. Think about it. Is it really something that you want to exist, uh, not just in our--our community but in our country and in our world? Uh, what--what do you want our--our world to be? What do you want humanity to be? And how does what you read or saw affect that? You know, think it through. And if somebody' ; s trying to--to lay some trip on you that' ; s, uh, the antithesis of that, reject it. FERNHEIMER: Spoken like a true professor. HALPERN: (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Thank you so much for your time, Sam. HALPERN: As a true human being. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: That' ; s right, that' ; s right. Thank you so much. HALPERN: You' ; re very welcome. Thank you for having me. FERNHEIMER: My pleasure. So a couple follow-up questions about your family, Sam. Can you tell me how many, uh, members of your family did you live with here in Lexington in your house? HALPERN: Well, there were four kids. Uh, my brother, uh, who' ; s deceased and one of the sisters deceased, uh, so it' ; s just me and my oldest sister who remain. She' ; s in California and so am I. FERNHEIMER: So you' ; re the youngest? HALPERN: I' ; m the baby of the family. FERNHEIMER: Okay. And your siblings' ; names? The oldest was--is-- HALPERN: --uh, oldest was Bob. He was--and then came Debby and then, uh, Naomi and Sam. FERNHEIMER: And what--how many years were between all of you? HALPERN: Twelve between Bob and me. FERNHEIMER: Okay, so he was twelve years older than you. HALPERN: Than me. FERNHEIMER: Who--and Naomi? No. HALPERN: Uh, Debby was-- FERNHEIMER: --Debby-- HALPERN: --ten years older than me. Naomi was seven years older than me. But she lied about it and said she was six. Uh. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) HALPERN: Then there was me. FERNHEIMER: And, uh, what did they go on to do? I' ; m just curious. HALPERN: Bob was an engineer. Uh, my, uh, two sisters are--were nurses. And, uh, I wound up, uh, doing the stuff that I told you. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So--so everyone sort of went on and moved out of the, uh, agrarian life and into, uh. HALPERN: Yes, although I still, uh, like to get my fingers in the dirt. I raise a garden. A lot of the stuff that we use. Joni is a phenomenal cook and she, you know, I--I grow all sorts of herbs and things like that plus, you know, everything from lettuce to, uh, zucchini, uh, eggplant, uh, uh, potatoes, uh, peppers of all kinds, uh, you know, uh, we' ; ve got orange trees and lemon trees and lime trees. Uh, apple trees, uh, pomegranate, uh, fig. FERNHEIMER: So that' ; s really stayed with you. HALPERN: I don' ; t--I don' ; t know what I' ; ve left out. But anyway I' ; m--I' ; m always digging around in something. FERNHEIMER: So, uh, it' ; s--it' ; s clear that that part has stayed with you through all these different aspects of your life. I wonder if you could reflect on the way that your Judaism has impacted all these different aspects of your life. HALPERN: It has. Uh, a lot of it from my reading. Uh, in, uh, since I--since I left college actually. I read quite a bit of, uh, of, uh, books on Judaism, history, a lot of history. And, uh, trying to figure out, uh, who we are and what we are and why we are and, uh, I think that, uh, Judaism has a way of looking at life from, uh, kind of a humanitarian standpoint. Uh, uh, an intellectual standpoint. And I think that has stuck with me a lot. Uh, uh, I' ; m less likely to make snap judgments about things. I--I tend to think things through. Uh, or at least to an extent. The, uh, it--it definitely has had, uh, an effect on my outlook on, uh, on life. Uh, I learned a lot of stuff that we' ; ve done, uh, that, you know, uh, when you take a look at--at, uh, our little ethnic group, I don' ; t think even at the maximum we' ; ve ever exceeded twenty-five million people. I don' ; t think so. You know, uh, uh, you' ; d have to look that up. But, uh, so we' ; re a tiny sliver of the world' ; s population. And we have had an effect on the species far exceeding our numbers. Uh, we really, uh, have been, uh, we' ; ve had our fingers into everything. Everything from theology to cosmology. (laughs) You know, uh, medicine, whatever, you know, uh, uh, why we are, uh, why we' ; ve--(clears throat)--been involved in so many things, uh, I think probably goes back to this--this interest in--in--in education and--and considering, uh, what life is like, what life is about, that sort of thing. So yes, it' ; s had an effect. FERNHEIMER: So I want to go back to that uncomfortable moment that I know you described in the book, but I wonder if you could describe it right now. You said the m-- your most vivid memory from the Jewish community is a painful one. And that moment of exclusion. Could you describe it in your writer' ; s way for us now, what it--what it is and kind of why that stands out as the most vivid? HALPERN: I was excluded. That hurts. It hurts. It doesn' ; t make any difference whether you' ; re Jewish, Hispanic, black, Islamic, what you are. When the dominant society--and at that moment in time the little--little, uh, synagogue congregation was the society. At the moment I felt excluded. It hurt me. I think that to be excluded like that hurts every group. It' ; s, uh, and it' ; s hard to--once trust is lost it' ; s hard to get it back, you know. I have gotten it back because I, uh, I' ; ve read a lot. Uh, and, uh, so I see Judaism not as those people, uh, who excluded me at that time. FERNHEIMER: And what-- HALPERN: --but something much different. FERNHEIMER: What did they exclude you from? Was it services? Or-- HALPERN: --their society. FERNHEIMER: W-- HALPERN: --their--their group. FERNHEIMER: Mm. HALPERN: And so I felt like they don' ; t want me, I don' ; t belong. And that' ; s what hurt me a lot. And that' ; s the reason that--that--that' ; s so vivid in my mind. And, you know, I--I--I thought when I answered that question, You really going to say this? I thought, Yeah. Yeah, this is you. You' ; re going to say it. And so I did. FERNHEIMER: And yet those values from Judaism have stayed with you your whole life. How do you-- HALPERN: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --reconcile that tension I guess? HALPERN: I' ; m not sure that, uh, how that, uh, plays out. I think over, uh, a long lifetime you begin to, uh, get a feel for, uh, for things. Uh, uh, there' ; s no--it' ; s hard to single out any one single thing and say, " ; This is the be-all and end-all." ; Uh, things, you know, I don' ; t remember who said it, but things are never black or white when you' ; re human, they' ; re just varying shades of gray. You know? FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. HALPERN: And so the scale slides. You know, just--just like a camera. FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you. HALPERN: You' ; re very welcome. FERNHEIMER: I' ; m very-- HALPERN: --thank you for having me. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s really a pleasure. Oh yeah. The cover of it. HALPERN: Absolutely. FERNHEIMER: It' ; s a beautiful cover. Yeah, they did a nice job. Yeah. Great. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh168_jk001_halpern_ohm.xml 2015oh168_jk001_halpern_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh168_jk001_halpern_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Title
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Samuel Elliott Halpern, March 30, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Samuel Elliot Halpern was born in Georgetown, Kentucky in 1939 to a Jewish tobacco sharecropping family. Sam’s early life was characterized by experiences of fishing and hunting on his family’s farms and working long, grueling days in the fields. While the life of a sharecropper was not usually viewed as being comfortable, Sam describes his experience as having no knowledge of the fact that his family was poor and believing that they were middle-class and no different from their Christian counterparts. Sam then goes on to describe his parents’ immigration from Lithuania to New York and his family’s lack of involvement in the Jewish community in Kentucky. Sam also describes his educational path which begins with his enrollment at the University of Kentucky in 1953, then medical school at the University of Louisville from 1957 to 1961, and finally his career as a professor at the University of California at San Diego from 1970 to 2009. Upon retiring from teaching, Sam revisited a writing project he began in the late 1960’s and decided to finish the story which became A Far Piece to Canaan, a novel that is a fictional representation of his life and experiences as a white, Jewish sharecropper in Kentucky. Finally, Sam reflects on his son’s viral Twitter feed, “Sh*t My Dad Says”, which is comprised of words of wisdom shared by Sam to his son over the years. The Twitter feed was so popular that it eventually landed Sam’s son a book deal and a sitcom which starred William Shatner, a fellow Kentuckian. The interview concludes with Sam sharing his views on humanity and the number of siblings he has.
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2015oh168_jk001
Subject
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Depressions--1929--Kentucky
Poverty--Appalachian Region
Childhood
Jews--Identity.
Religion
Agriculture--Kentucky
Farm tenancy
Immigrants--Kentucky
Sharecropping
Appalachian Region--Social life and customs
Physicians
Authors.
Jewish children--Kentucky--Lexington
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.).
Format
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video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/2d88e5a37e4ac4a870c4ddba91a224cf.jpeg
99abc7676b46a9ed7ee1b34554ca3e5d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Eugene Dubow
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Janice W. Fernheimer
Interview Keyword
American Jewish Committee
East Germany
Berlin Wall
West Germany
College students--Social conditions
Greek letter societies.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2013oh495_jk002 Interview with Eugene Dubow, November 1, 2013 2013oh495_jk002 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) University of Kentucky Jewish leadership Religion and politics Worship (Judaism) King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 Race discrimination. United States--Race relations. Civil rights movements--United States African Americans--Segregation Lexington (Ky.) Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. American Jewish Committee East Germany Berlin Wall West Germany College students--Social conditions Greek letter societies. Janice W. Fernheimer Eugene Dubow 1:|6(11)|18(12)|33(2)|45(10)|66(17)|87(9)|101(9)|112(15)|131(15)|152(14)|179(14)|200(4)|218(6)|233(3)|249(11)|268(4)|284(6)|300(12)|329(8)|344(4)|362(11)|388(5)|408(3)|425(9)|451(18)|464(14)|482(12)|497(8)|506(14)|522(4)|536(10)|553(13)|569(8)|582(14)|597(7)|608(3)|627(3)|644(6)|661(2)|674(7)|688(13)|706(6)|720(1)|748(11)|762(4)|784(7)|797(14)|808(4)|822(12)|837(12)|857(8)|875(7)|888(5)|902(5)|912(8)|927(10)|942(5)|955(18)|969(5)|989(13)|1020(13)|1038(10)|1049(4)|1062(8)|1079(12)|1098(14)|1118(11)|1132(12)|1145(8)|1158(16)|1170(15)|1183(13)|1203(9)|1220(7)|1232(9)|1246(11)|1258(9)|1271(6)|1285(12)|1300(2)|1314(7)|1324(7)|1341(7)|1357(8)|1373(1)|1384(8)|1402(14)|1421(11)|1447(5)|1472(9)|1484(1)|1496(1)|1507(13)|1519(10)|1535(12)|1549(4)|1559(5)|1571(2)|1588(6)|1615(1)|1643(7)|1658(7)|1671(6)|1684(4)|1696(5)|1708(10)|1724(14)|1744(11)|1759(13)|1793(13)|1803(10)|1814(12) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253334297" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Childhood in New York City And I'm recording. Eugene DuBow was born on June 3rd, 1932 and was raised in The Bronx in New York City. He speaks about the public schools he attended, including DeWitt Clinton High School. He talks about how the schools redistricted as a result of WWII in case there were air raids in the city. DuBow graduated from high school in January of 1950 and ultimately decided to go to the University of Kentucky because of the reputation of the basketball program. Bomb threats ; Brooklyn College ; City College of New York ; Dewitt Clinton High School ; GI Bill ; Jewish neighborhoods ; Long Island University ; New York University ; Telegraphs ; The Bronx (New York, N.Y.) ; University of Alabama ; University of Kentucky ; World War 2 ; World War II Education ; Jewish children ; World War, 1939-1945 40.881324, -73.887407 17 Location of Dewitt Clinton High School where Dubow attended http://riverdalepress.static2.adqic.com/uploads/original/1327601097_e8f6.jpg Dewitt Clinton High School 536 Segregation About ten days later, I was on a train on my way to Lexington, Kentucky. Now, in those days they, they did have airplanes. Uh, there were airplanes, but air travel was very expensive. When DuBow moved to Lexington, he had his first experience with segregation on the train ride to Kentucky. Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Grand Central Station ; Scott Street ; Southern Railroad ; Train travel African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Race discrimination. ; United States--Race relations. 40.75272619999999, -73.9772294 17 Grand Central Station http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cph.3b08489/ Grand Central Station 734 Arriving at the University of Kentucky in 1950 Uh, so I so-- I came, and there was the administration building, and there it is. Uh, uh, I, I went, and I told 'em who I was. Oh yes, they're expecting me, and so forth. They gave me a, a room in Bowman, in Bowman Hall. When DuBow arrived at the University of Kentucky he was given a dorm room in Bowman Hall. He talks about meeting the Dean of Women, Sara B. Holmes, who now has a dormitory named in her honor at the university. He also discusses some experiences he had with his Kentuckian roommates and his first college classes. He names some of the Jewish people he met on campus in his first year as well, and how he was introduced to the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity. When students rushed fraternities in the 1950s, they had to sign a pledge of religious faith in order to join any traditionally Christian fraternity. He also discusses the University of Kentucky when it began to integrate in the 1960s and a few of the steps that led to that. Alan Bloomfield ; Alumni Gym ; Amry Vandenbosch ; Anti-Semitism ; Bob Fraiman ; Bob Fremen ; Bob Tabscott ; Bowman Hall ; Civil rights ; Dan Jernigan ; Dr. Ralph Bunche ; Erle Levy ; Frank Fuller ; Hershey Weinberg ; Holmes Hall ; Integration at the University of Kentucky ; Ivan Goldfarb ; Jerold Bass ; Jerry Meade ; John Boyd ; John Clay ; Lenny Zuckerman ; Lexington Herald Leader ; Limestone Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Memorial Coliseum ; Murrell Small ; Owensboro (Ky.) ; Rose Street (Lexington, Ky.) ; Rupp Arena ; Sarah B. Holmes ; Social Teas ; Somerset (Ky.) ; St. John's University ; Sully Walker ; University of Kentucky ; Washington Redskins ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Race discrimination. ; United States--Race relations. ; University of Kentucky 38.0306511, -84.50396969999997 17 University of Kentucky http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt734t6f3d29_3143_1 Aerial photograph of the University of Kentucky in 1949. This is close to what the University of Kentucky would have looked like when Dubow was a student. 2194 Jewish reform movement in Lexington, Kentucky Um, when I arrived, uh, there was--there were two synagogues: there's a reform and a, and a conservative, which I think there's still-- Dubow speaks about the Jewish community in Lexington, Kentucky while he was a student at the University of Kentucky. There are now, and have historically been, two synagogues in Lexington, Kentucky: Temple Adath Israel (Reform) and Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Conservative). He also speaks on the project founded by Rabbi Maurice Davis called SEEK, Seeking Equal Education in Kentucky, that was part of the initial movement of integration at the University of Kentucky. Conservative Synagogue ; Jewish community in Lexington ; Jewish population in Lexington, Kentucky ; Jewish reform movement ; Kentucky ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Rabbi Maurice Davis ; Rabbi Sydney Ballon ; Reform Synagogue ; Seeking Equal Education in Kentucky (SEEK) ; Temple Adath Israel African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Race discrimination. ; United States--Race relations. ; University of Kentucky ; Worship (Judaism) 17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Davis#/media/File:Rabbi_Maurice_Davis.jpg Photograph or Rabbi Maurice Davis 2421 The civil rights movement Um, and, uh, we both got very involved in the civil rights struggle. We married in '61, and we, uh, we were both involved locally. DuBow speaks about when he and his wife marched on Montgomery with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and briefly describes the accomplishments of his wife. He recalls some of the major events of the civil rights movement that occurred at this time, including the murder of Viola Liuzzo. American civil rights movement ; Carol Sticks ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Edmund Pettus Bridge ; Edward Sticks ; Friends of the Nyacks ; Governor George Wallace ; Jean Noble ; Ku Klux Klan (KKK) ; Manhattanville College of the Sacred Heart ; March on Selma ; Montgomery (Ala.) ; Nyack (N.Y.) ; Tish DuBow ; Viola Liuzzo African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Civil rights movements--United States ; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968 ; Race discrimination. ; United States--Race relations. 32.40735889999999, -87.02110069999997 17 Selma, Alabama http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/chronologyentry/1965_03_25/index.html Photograph of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. leading the march to Montgomery, Alabama from Selma, Alabama. 2918 American Jewish Committee--Westchester, New York 1966 And she said to me, " ; Would you ever consider working for a Jewish human rights organization?" ; After the March on Selma, DuBow decided he wanted to return to civil rights work. While pursuing a master's degree from NYU, he met a woman named Carol Stix who connected him to the American Jewish Committee in Westchester, New York. In 1966 he became the director of that chapter of the AJC. 6 Day War ; American Jewish Committee ; Carol Stix ; Elanor Katz ; Jewish American Support of Israel ; Oliver Solomon ; Six Day War ; Stuart Yussman ; Westchester (N.Y.) ; Will Katz Israel ; Jewish leadership ; Religion and politics 17 American Jewish Committee Building in New York City http://www.ajc.org/site/c.fmJZKhOWJfI6G/b.8504491/k.BDD9/Home.htm The current website for the American Jewish Committee in Westchester, New York 3156 American Jewish Committee--Chicago 1969 Then in 19--the end of 1969, um, an opportunity came, uh, to go to a bigger office in Chicago. After serving as director of the AJC in Westchester for 3 years, he accepted a position as the director of the AJC in Chicago. One of his accomplishments included a counter-demonstration against a Neo-Nazi march in Skokie, Illinois. American Jewish Committee ; Jewish United Fund (JUF) ; Nationalist Socialist Party of America vs. Village of Skokie ; Nazis ; Neo-Nazis ; Reed DuBow ; Skokie (Ill.) ; Soviet Jewry Movement ; Soviet Union ; Soviet Union Jews Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish leadership ; Religion and politics 17 http://www.ajcchicago.org/site/c.hgKNLQOuElH/b.846641/k.631D/Chicago_Regional_Office.htm The current website for the American Jewish Committee in Chicago, Illinois. 3467 The Soviet Jewry Movement--Late 1970s Number two thing was during the beginning of the Soviet Jewry movement-- In the late 1970s, DuBow and the AJC worked together with the Catholic Church to set up an organization to help Soviet Jews get out of the Soviet Union. He worked with a Catholic nun named Sister Margaret Traxler to create a committee to help the Jews trying to flee the Soviet Union. In 1980, he accepted the position to be the head director of the entire American Jewish Committee in New York City. Natan Sharansky ; Nicole DuBow ; Oliver Sholem ; Sam Katz ; Sister Ann Gillen ; Sister Margaret Traxler ; Soviet Jewry ; Soviet Jewry Movement ; Stuart Yusman ; The National Catholic Conference for Interracial Justice ; Will Katz Jewish leadership ; Religion and politics 17 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/sjmove.html Encyclopedia article about the Soviet Jewry movement 3769 The AJC builds a relationship with West Germany And in 1989, I think it was, maybe it was 1990. Uh, in 1989 the American Jewish Committee, for whom now I had been working for a long time, uh, uh, started a, um, a connection to Germany. DuBow describes an exchange and relationship he built between the American Jewish Committee and West Germany. They eventually found a partner in Germany with the Konrad-Adenauer foundation in order for the AJC to provide support to the the Jews in West Germany. American Jewish Committee (AJC) ; Angel Merkel ; Berlin (Germany) ; Bonn (Germany) ; Christian Democratic Party ; East Germany ; German Jewish life after WWII ; Germany ; Holocaust ; John Le Carre ; Konrad Adenauer Foundation ; Munich (Germany) ; Stasi ; State Secretary for Church Questions ; United States State Department ; West Germany Jewish leadership ; Religion and politics 17 http://www.kas.de/wf/en/71.3628/ A link describing the purpose and role of the Konrad Adenauer foundation. 4099 The AJC and East Germany And then AJC decided to upgrade the program and we had another group go back in, in, uh, 19, uh, 83. After discovering that the United States had diplomatic relations with East Germany, DuBow organized a trip with the State Department and met with the American ambassador there. There were very few Jews in East Germany at this time in the 1980s and because of the communist government, they struggled to find resources to support their Jewish culture. DuBow talks about finding the people of East Berlin a rabbi and working with the Manischewitz company to supply Passover wine and matzoh. Berlin Wall ; Carol DuBow Cott ; East German life after WWII ; East Germany ; Hans Roeder ; Klaus Gysi ; Manischewitz Company ; Michael Tsera ; Peter Kirchner ; State Secretary for Church Questions-East Germany Jewish leadership ; Religion and politics ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/en/topic/134.jews-in-east-germany.html An article discussing what happened to Jews who remained in East Germany after WWII. 5994 Zeta Beta Tau at the University of Kentucky But I want to, I want ask you a few specific questions-- DuBow reflects on his time in Zeta Beta Tau at the University of Kentucky. He served as president in 1952-53 and built bonds with his fraternity brothers that would last his entire life. He also reflects on Zeta Beta Tau's national decision to integrate religiously. He was also president of Hillel in 1951-52. Bart Peak ; Fraternities ; Hillel ; Interfaith Council (IFC) ; Interfraternity Council ; Jewish fraternity ; New York State Parole Officers Association ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; University of Kentucky 38.030429, -84.51088199999998 19 Location of the former Zeta Beta Tau House today http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt79kd1qgb7g_308/viewer Zeta Beta Tau yearbook page in 1953 Oral History Eugene DuBow was born and was raised in The Bronx in New York City. He speaks about the public schools he attended, and about how the schools redistricted as a result of WWII in case there were air raids in the city. DuBow graduated from high school in January of 1950 and ultimately decided to go to the University of Kentucky. When DuBow moved to Lexington, he had his first experience with segregation on the train ride to Kentucky. When DuBow arrived at the University of Kentucky he was given a dorm room in Bowman Hall, and he discusses some experiences he had with his Kentuckian roommates and his first college classes. He names some of the Jewish people he met on campus in his first year as well, and how he was introduced to the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity. Dubow speaks about the Jewish community in Lexington, Kentucky while he was a student at the University of Kentucky. There are now, and have historically been, two synagogues in Lexington, Kentucky: Temple Adath Israel (Reform) and Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Conservative). He also speaks on the project founded by Rabbi Maurice Davis called SEEK, Seeking Equal Education in Kentucky, that was part of the initial movement of integration at the University of Kentucky. DuBow speaks about when he and his wife marched on Montgomery with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. After the March on Selma, DuBow decided he wanted to return to civil rights work. While pursuing a master's degree from NYU, he met a woman named Carol Stix who connected him to the American Jewish Committee in Westchester, New York. In 1966 he became the director of that chapter of the AJC. In the late 1970s, DuBow and the AJC worked together with the Catholic Church to set up an organization to help Soviet Jews get out of the Soviet Union. DuBow describes an exchange and relationship he built between the American Jewish Committee and West Germany. After discovering that the United States had diplomatic relations with East Germany, DuBow organized a trip with the State Department and met with the American ambassador there. FERNHEIMER: Great. Good morning. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I am an Associate Professor of Writing, Rhetoric, and Digital Studies here at the University of Kentucky, and the Director of the Interdisciplinary Program in Jewish Studies, and it is my great honor and pleasure to have the morning to interview Mr. Gene DuBow. Um, as we get started this morning, I' ; m just gonna ask you to tell me a little bit about yourself, Gene. DUBOW: Well, uh, as one who' ; s lived my life, I' ; m not so sure it' ; s so terribly interesting, but I will be glad to tell you about me. I' ; m--(laughter)--I grew up in--I grew up in the Bronx, uh, New York, in pretty much of a Jewish cocoon, a Jewish neighborhood, uh, uh, in the mid-Bronx. Um, my mother and father, uh--my father was born in Russia, but he was pretty Americanized. My mother was actually born in the United States, which was unusual for that neighborhood. Of course, we had so many people who were born on the other si-- what was called the other side, on the other side, in those days. And, of course, I was born, uh, on June the 3rd, 1932. I tell young people that, uh, I was born during the presidency of Herbert Hoover. They can barely believe that. (laughter) Uh, and, uh, since I had a lot to do with Germany in--later in my career, uh, I was born before Adolf Hitler became the Chancellor of Germany. So, uh, I' ; m an antique. Uh, I' ; m, I' ; m, I' ; m ancient. ----------(??) I grew up in--I grew up in the Bronx. Uh, went to the, uh, local, uh, public schools. Uh, as a matter of fact, I was in one public school in the third grade, uh, when The War--The War--World War II broke out, and they took me from one school and put me in another because the New York City, uh, Board of Education decided that it would be safe in case there were air raids-- FERNHEIMER: --wow. DUBOW: --uh, to, uh, be able to get kids to go home, uh, if they lived in, uh, in a prescribed area. I don' ; t know what they were expecting, uh, to happen at home. If the bombs were gonna fall on the school, they certainly would fall on the home. But at any rate, they took me and put me in this, uh, in this other school, in PS28, and I went there. Uh, uh, I went to a junior high school which was, uh, directly across the street from me, and, uh, then, uh, I went to an all-boys high school, uh, DeWitt Clinton High School in the Bronx, and I think back on that these days, and I still have a very, very close friend, and, uh, uh, lives in Seattle. And I said, " ; What was wrong with us where we went to an all-boys high school? (laughter) We could' ; ve gone to a mixed high school." ; He said, " ; Well, you know, we, we, we were men. We didn' ; t like girls." ; (laughs) So you make, you make certain choices in your life, and that--I think that was a--that was a rather poor choice. (laughter) And, uh, uh, in any rate, I, I managed to, uh, to get through high school. I wa-- was not a great student. I was okay, but I was-- I wasn' ; t a great student. And then came time for college. The accept-- the accepted thing in our family, and, frankly, in our society, was that when you finished high school you went to college. Uh, you didn' ; t go and, uh, you know, and get a job or learn a trade or--I mean, you went to college. So I decided, uh, for myself, um, uh, that I would like to go out of town to college. Normally, in our neighborhood, as my brother did, went to New York University, if you had a little money--and we had a little money, uh, uh, you went to NYU. If you had no money, uh, which there were many people there who had really no money, and, uh, uh, went to, uh, uh, City College of New York, CCNY. If you were a genius of some kind and got a scholarship to Harvard or Yale, that would--that was something else. Now, this was, this was 1949. This was four years-- FERNHEIMER: --oh. DUBOW: --after, after World War II. There were still a lot of veterans-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah. DUBOW: --coming back from the service under the GI Bill-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. DUBOW: --who were going to college, so it wasn' ; t so easy to get into, uh, to a college. For me, it, it, it was even a little bit more difficult because I graduated a half year. I graduated in January of 1950, and then came the question of where to go to college. Well, uh, we didn' ; t have any advisors. This was an all-boys, big, big school. I think there were two or three thousand students-- FERNHEIMER: --wow. DUBOW: --in it. FERNHEIMER: How many were in your graduating class? DUBOW: Excuse me? What? FERNHEIMER: How many were in your graduating class in high school? DUBOW: Oh, I don' ; t know, several hundred, four or five hundred. Uh, it seemed to me, uh, not terribly much smaller than the University of Kentucky was at that time, but I' ; ll get to, I' ; ll get to that in a moment, uh, or two. Uh, so, uh, the only, uh, help we got was the, the high school had, uh, catalogues from various and sundry colleges. And I didn' ; t--I was seventeen. Uh, I didn' ; t know much about colleges, except I had--except I--the expectation was on my family that I would go to college. And so I started, uh, looking, and, of course, the only colleges I knew were those colleges that had good basketball teams, because in those teams basketball, uh, in the New York area particularly, was a Jewish sport. FERNHEIMER: Really? DUBOW: Yes. Uh, m-m-many of the really good college players, uh, uh, were Jewish. Uh, in those days CCNY, NYU, Brooklyn College, all--uh, uh, Long Island University--all had very, very good, nationally prominent basketball teams. They all later got--uh, most of them got caught up in a scandal and they didn' ; t have such great, uh, teams after that. And also, uh, after that, the, the, the Jewish population became more professionalized, and so people weren' ; t so interested in going and becoming professional athletes, so forth. At any rate, they were, uh, uh--I knew the good basketball teams, and, of course, I knew the University of Kentucky. Uh, but I applied to, to various places, uh, uh, and I got accepted, actually, at the University of Alabama. Now, they didn' ; t have a very good basketball team, but I knew them because they had a good football team. Uh, but they, they accepted me, uh, uh, dur-- on the quarter system, so I would' ; ve had to hang around until March in order to go. But, uh, I thought, well, if that' ; s what I have to do, I have to do. My family--it was okay with my family. And then I got a telegraph. Actually--(laughs)--I mean, this sounds ancient, but a guy came with a telegram saying I was accepted at the University of Kentucky, and could I be there in I think it was about ten days. My father, uh, was a manufacturer, and he was a salesman and a manufacturer of ladies' ; hats. Of course, women don' ; t wear hats very much anymore, but in those days women, women wore hats. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: These little frilly hats and stuff. And he sold, uh, to accounts all over the country, and he sold to a small department store in Lexington, Kentucky called Wolf Wild (??). He called her on the phone--and, by the way, getting a, a long-distance call in those days, that was a, that was a major event. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: You had to go to the operator, the operator called other operators, and, and it took a long time, and then you finally, finally, uh, go through. By the way, uh, later in my life, uh, I had a lot to do, uh, in East Germany, and it reminded me, as I think about it now, that the s-- the phone system was very much like the East German phone system. (laughter) In any case, uh, he called her on the phone. I don' ; t remember her name, but, uh--and she said, " ; Oh, ----------(??)-------- love it in Lexington, Kentucky." ; (laughter) About ten days later, I was on a train on my way to Lexington, Kentucky. Now, in those days they, they did have airplanes. Uh, there were airplanes, but air travel was very expensive. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Uh, and so people m-m-m-- uh, traveled b-- traveled by train. So I went--I took the New York Central from Grand Central Station west to Cincinnati. I transferred at Cincinnati to the Southern, uh, which stopped in, in Lexington. It was the first time I had ever experienced segregation. FERNHEIMER: Wow. DUBOW: Uh, the train was segregated. FERNHEIMER: Tell me a little bit more about that. Describe what it was like. DUBOW: Well, it was a little bit shocking to me, uh, because, uh, a-at DeWitt Clinton High School we had, we had blacks, we had whites. I mean, it wasn' ; t totally integrated, but it was pretty integrated. Uh, there weren' ; t all that many blacks living in the Bronx then. Uh, so that was a little bit of a sh-- little bit of a shock to me. But I must say, honestly, that once I--until I saw it--I mean, I, I knew that there was segregation in the South. I, I somehow didn' ; t realize Kentucky was really in the South. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Uh, by the way, Kentucky hadn' ; t figured out that it was really in the South or not, uh, during the Civil War. You read American history, you' ; ll know that th-there was--they' ; re a little bit be-- what I would call betwixt and between. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Uh, but, but there was, there was segregation here. So it was an accepted fact that there was segregation. Uh, sure, there were people who were trying to do away with it, but by and large, p-particularly in Jewish community, we weren' ; t so involved in that at that time. Became very involved in it later, but not, not at that time. Uh, Jews were, at that time, in New York and elsewhere, were trying to make it in American society. FERNHEIMER: Mm. DUBOW: Uh, uh, their soldiers, uh, who had been in the American Army were coming back under the GI Bill, getting their training, wanting to become doctors, lawyers, accountants-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah. DUBOW: --and all of, all of those kinds of, uh, things. And so we weren' ; t so keyed, uh, on, on, uh, matters of segregation. So I took the train, uh, south, and I got off--at that time there was the, uh, Southern Railroad. Uh, I don' ; t remember exactly the name of the street, but it was near Scott Street. Uh, uh, and, uh, I came with a trunk, with a good-sized trunk. Uh, and the, the station master said, " ; Well, leave the trunk, you can come back for it," ; and pointed me in the direction of the university, and I walked. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --how long was the walk? DUBOW: (laughs) It was a, it was a, it was a, it was a good walk. Uh, I was, uh, I was tired after eight-- the tr-- the train trip had taken eighteen hours! Eighteen hours! Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --I can' ; t even imagine that. DUBOW: Right. I mean, it was an overnight train trip. I didn' ; t sleep on the train. And it' ; s the first time I had ever been away, really away from New York. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Uh, uh, I had when I was thirteen. I worked on a farm in upstate New York for, for about a month. But this was the first time I was really west of, west of the Hudson River. And keep in mind I was seventeen. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Uh, so I s-- I came, and there was the administration building, and there it is. Uh, uh, I, I went, and I told ' ; em who I was. Oh yes, they' ; re expecting me, and so forth. They gave me a, a room in Bowman, in Bowman Hall. There' ; s a quadrangle of--I don' ; t think they use for dorms anymore, but there was a quadrangle of buildings, uh, and they were, they were all dorms, and gave me a room number. Uh, of course, it was break, uh, in-- it was midyear break at school. FERNHEIMER: Right. DUBOW: Uh, so my two roommates were not, uh, were not there. And I went back to the r-railroad station, and I don' ; t quite remember that--but I certainly didn' ; t carry the trunk on my back, that' ; s for sure. Had all my belongings in it. And I must' ; ve taken a taxicab, got me to Bowman Hall, and somehow I got there, and so forth. And for the next few days there were social tees (??), and meeting with girls, uh, uh--(laughter)--and I remember, uh, once, uh, the dean of women was Sarah B. Holmes. Now there' ; s Holmes Hall. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: She' ; s a lovely, wonderful woman. I remember her very, very well. I eventually took a course with her. Uh, uh, and she introduced me to people. And there were all these people from Kentucky who I couldn' ; t understand. (laughter) Now, uh, again, they had this, this accent--you know, it' ; s not a Southern accent. Uh, it' ; s a--it' ; s what I would call a mountain twang. Uh, it, it' ; s ver-- it' ; s very different than--the people in Kentucky than people in Alabama and Louisiana and so forth. Uh, but I couldn' ; t understand them, and they, and they couldn' ; t understand me very well. Uh, I mean, I--we all spoke English, but different versions, uh, thereof. And I--there was a little bit of what I would call culture shock. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Can you--take me back. I--I' ; m trying to imagine in my mind--I just moved to Kentucky four years ago, but paint me a picture of what it was like to get off that train, and, and to find yourself in the middle of Kentucky, first time west of the Hudson, as you kind of walked up the--I guess there was a hill, or at least a--it sounds like it was a long trek from the train station to the campus. DUBOW: Well, it was a trek. Uh, I don' ; t quite remember what I was thinking, but probably I was thinking about how do I get back on the train to go home. (laughter) Uh, uh, this is very--it was--it, it was very foreign, very, very foreign to me. Um, so, uh, after three or four days the school was beginning. You had to register for courses. You had to go somewhere. The, the, the memorial coliseum was not yet built. Uh, so you had to go somewhere--can' ; t remember where--maybe in the alumni gym to sign up for courses. You would sign up for, for courses. They would put you on a list, and, uh-- FERNHEIMER: What was that process like? You know, they do everything online now. DUBOW: It was, it was--well, well you knew you had to take English and, and, and, uh, and, and a few other beginning subjects. I knew that. And then you went, and they had a list of students, and they put your name down, and if there were too many students they' ; d say, " ; Sorry, that' ; s closed. You have to take something else." ; Uh, by the way, I eventually took, t-took Eng-- they, they put me in a beginning English class. Of course, I' ; d had a reasonably New York City education. Uh, and there was this big--and, and my--a-an, an, an uncle, an aunt of mine had given me, as a going away present, a brand new fountain pen and pencil set. FERNHEIMER: Wow. DUBOW: That was--well, that was considered a, a pretty good present. So I brought that with me. And in this English class I sat down, and I s-started to write, uh, a theme. There was this big guy sitting next to me, big, strapping guy. And he, he said, " ; Can I borrow your eraser?" ; He had written about three words, and then erased--(laughs)--and he started over again. Meanwhile, this, this went on, and I think he, he era-- used up the whole eraser. And it turned out that he was an Am-- uh, an All-American football player eventually. His name is Frank Fuller. He played, he played professional football eventually for the Washington Redskins. He was a great football player. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, Redskins. DUBOW: But I have the feeling he wasn' ; t a great writer of themes. (laughter) Uh, and, by the way, if you didn' ; t, if you didn' ; t pass, they put you in a, in a class called--now we call it remedial English ; in those cases it was called English D, for dummy English--(laughs)--people who, uh, were not--couldn' ; t really write. I don' ; t know. He came--he actually came from Pennsylvania, I think, so-- Anyway, I, anyway, I, I was signing up for classes, and my roommates appeared on the scene finally. Uh, Bob Tabscott (??) from Owensboro, Kentucky, and Dan Jernigan (??) from Somerset, Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: What was it like when you all first met? DUBOW: Well, they, they were ni-- they were quite nice. Uh, uh, they, they--I think they were, they were interested in the fact that I was from, from New York. Neither one of them had ever been. I don' ; t, I don' ; t even know if they' ; d ever been out of, out of Kentucky before. Uh, they, they, they were quite nice, uh, uh, uh, uh, both of them. And, um, I was a little bit--uh, you know, I told ' ; em who I was. Uh, we didn' ; t talk too much about being Jewish. I mean, now, they knew--they knew I was Jewish. I told ' ; em that. And that was, that was one of the things you really didn' ; t discuss much in those days. Now, now, you know, now being Jewish is a, is a big positive. In those days, there was still a lot of anti-Semitism, enormous amount of anti-Semitism in the United States, and so you didn' ; t talk too much about it. And besides, I was seventeen, away from home, and so-- But then they sort of knew who I--and they, they would--except they got up at four or five o' ; clock in the morning and played hillbilly music, uh, early in the morning, WVLK from Versailles, Kentucky, uh, Lester Flatt, Earl Scruggs, and the Foggy Mountain Boys. (laughter) I' ; m thinking, this, thi-this is, is not good for my health, my sleep. Uh, in any case, I, I, I survived, and they, they, they really turned out to be quite nice. FERNHEIMER: How many years did you live in the dorms? DUBOW: Well, ----------(??) I' ; ll get to that. Just-- FERNHEIMER: --okay. DUBOW: --just, uh, uh, uh, just the first six months, actually. FERNHEIMER: Okay. DUBOW: And I didn' ; t live with them all the time. What happened was Tabscott, who, who, who was--I see it' ; s--and we were eating at the, at the, uh, university cafeteria-- FERNHEIMER: --what, what was-- DUBOW: --at the commons. FERNHEIMER: --the food like? DUBOW: Well, you--what was the food like? (laughs) Well, let me say that it wasn' ; t the Waldorf Astoria. It was-- (laughter) It was not the Waldorf Astoria. I mean, it was, uh, the kind of food, uh--I hadn' ; t been in the Army, but I would imagine it was that kind of f-- that kind of food. Uh, and there was a lot of things--there was gravy on everything. There was this, like, heavy brown gravy on everything, and, and they had these big sugar donuts, uh, no bag-- we didn' ; t eat bagels, no lox and bagels--(laughter)--uh, at all, uh-- FERNHEIMER: So that was part of the culture shock, huh? DUBOW: Exactly, that was part of the culture shock. Anyway, Tabscott--uh, Bob was--he was, he was very nice, and he said to me one day instead of going to the, to the university--I think it was called a commons in those days--he wanted to take me to a greasy spoon, uh, right across--right a-- right across Limestone Street, on the other side of Limestone Street, and introduced me to a guy named Sid Halpern from Brooklyn. Ah, so all of a sudden I know there' ; s, uh, at least one other Jewish guy in--at, at the university. And I got to know him a little bit, and we talked. And, and then I got to know some other people. Uh, I particularly became friendly, uh, with a fella named Gerald Bass. Gerald Bass is, uh, now deceased, uh, died a few years ago. He, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --I' ; m sorry. DUBOW: And he b-- he really taught me a lot, uh, taught me about things called a fraternity. I didn' ; t even know what a fraternity was, a fraternity. He said that' ; s where--there' ; s--there is one Jewish fraternity called ZPT, okay? Uh, he says that' ; s where all--where, where the guys hung out. And, and, by the way, I met another Jewish guy named Murrell Small--uh, didn' ; t have a very a Jewish name--M-u-r-r-e-l-l, Murrell Small, uh, from Louisville, uh, and I eventually left Tabscott and, and, uh, and Jernigan and moved in with Murrell, and, and a fella named--oh--John-- He was a, an older man. He was finishing his PhD in education. Isn' ; t that funny? Uh, maybe I' ; ll remember his name, but I can' ; t at the moment. FERNHEIMER: It' ; ll come. DUBOW: Uh, uh, and, uh, he eventually became a superintendent of schools for one of the counties, uh, over in, over in Eastern Kentucky. John Boyd. Uh, uh, uh-- And he wasn' ; t there much. He would come on Mondays and take a course and then he was gone, so Murrell and I really had the--we had this big room pretty much to ourselves. And I stayed there, uh, o-only, uh, only during the first, uh, semester. So I got to know people-- FERNHEIMER: --was, was Doug Jewish, also? Or was-- DUBOW: --I' ; m s-- FERNHEIMER: --was Doug Jewish also, or was it just Murrell? DUBOW: Yeah, Murrell was, was Jewish. Uh, in fact, he took me home with him a couple of times. His father was, uh, uh, in the, in the shoe business. It seems like a lot of people in Louisville were in the shoe business. I also met--uh, in those days the universities, um, uh, uh, uh, s-- uh, school of, uh, uh--what, what did they, what did they call it? The--it' ; s where they trained druggists. FERNHEIMER: Oh. DUBOW: Uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --pharmacy school? DUBOW: Yeah, pharmacy school, thank you. Uh, that' ; s what happens when you get old: you, you, you--some, some names you can' ; t remember. But anyway, yeah, the pharmacy school was actually in Louisville. FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay. DUBOW: So, so, uh--and that was considered a very good profession for Jewish kids, those that didn' ; t want to be a doctor, or wanted to become a doctor and couldn' ; t become a doctor went to pharmacy school. So they--but they had to come up to Lexington for a year, uh, before they could go to-- So, so there was a fella named Jerry Meade (??) and Hershey Weinberg (??), and so I got to know quite a few of the people in the dorms. Uh, and, uh, Jerry, Jerry Bass, he' ; s--he was a character. Uh, everybody called him Boss Bass. Uh, he was, he was a, he was a real politician. Uh, he-- FERNHEIMER: --why was that? Just because of his personality? DUBOW: Yeah, yeah, it was his per-- personality. Yeah, he be-- he eventually became a very, very successful stock broker in Houston, Texas, and, unfortunately, died a few years ago. Uh, any case, he, he introduced me to a lot of, to a lot of people, and he and I became, uh, good fr-- actually lifelong friends, uh, over many--over many, many, uh, uh, years. So, um--(clears throat)--so I got to know people. Uh, and, uh, uh, Jerry also spoke with this kind of mountain twang, even though he was from Louisville. And, and I, and I, and I learned that you shouldn' ; t say Louisville, that you had to somehow swallow it in the back of your throat--(laughs)--and say Louisville. And, uh, he was from Louisville, and, and, uh, he was very, very smart guy, by the way, very, very smart guy. So, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --and he' ; s the-- DUBOW: --he always would say to me, " ; Say battleship." ; He said, " ; I like the way you say battleship, battleship." ; (laughter) FERNHEIMER: So is he the one who introduced you to ZBT, Jerry? DUBOW: Yeah, he introduced me to, to, to ZBT. Now, that' ; s another thing you should know--I don' ; t think it' ; s well known--uh, that in those days not only was there racial segregation, there was religious segregation, that the--almost all the fraternities and sororities, when you joined, you had a sign a, like a pledge, saying you believed in Jesus Christ, and you were Christian, and so forth. And so we, we had--actually, when I got into the fraternity, I had two rushes a year. We had--we found out--by the way, in those days you were asked to, to say what your religion was. I mean, I think most, most people who were Jewish wrote down Jewish. FERNHEIMER: When you entered school? DUBOW: But you don' ; t--I, I, I don' ; t think you had to, and I' ; m sure there were some h-hidden Jews, uh, on the campus, uh-- FERNHEIMER: How big was the Jewish population, you think, or--? DUBOW: Never more than fifty in my, my opinion. There were never more than fifty. There were twenty-five, thirty, maybe forty, forty guys, and ten, twelve girls. There were very few, uh, uh, Jewish women, uh, at UK. And by the way, just let me digress for a moment-- FERNHEIMER: --sure. DUBOW: --as to who, as to who they were. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Uh, there were a few from New York. A couple of them, three that I--uh, two that I know, actually thought they could come to Lexington and be on the basketball team. (laughter) Now, you have to understand, communication in those days is not what it is today. There was no television. Uh, um, uh, there--of course, there were newspapers. Um, you know, there were no, there were no computers. There was no email, uh, and no websites or anything like that. And these guys, uh, uh, two guys, Bob Fremen (??) and, and Lenny Zuckerman, both thought they could, they could be basketball players at the University of Kentucky. Well, of course, they found out very quickly that, that UK had practically a, a--I mean, they were--uh, uh, a professional team--(coughs)--in those days. So they--but they, they stayed on. So we had, we had a few guys from New York, and a few, few guys like me who just drifted in there one, one way or the other. We had a, a substantial number of guys from, from Louisville. Now, most of the Jewish kids in Louisville went up to the Big Ten, to Indiana and, and, and up that way. Uh, and, and then we--and then we got s-some. Uh, um, I' ; m not, I' ; m not sure that they--I' ; m not sure that they weren' ; t the ones that could make it in the big ten. Uh, uh, the, the, the quality of the schooling there was much higher than, than in Lexington in those days. Uh, but anyway, we got some of those. And we got the townies. Uh, we got Earl Levy and, and, uh, Ivan Goldfarb and Alan Bloomfield. I mean, there were, there were quite a few townies. And even-- FERNHEIMER: --and by " ; townies" ; you mean folks who grew up here in Lexington. DUBOW: Yeah, right. Uh, e-- uh, uh, the Lexingtonians. But even in their high school, they--I mean, they sort of--some of them sort of hung around the fraternity house. Fraternity house was open. FERNHEIMER: Where was it? DUBOW: One thirteen State Street. Uh, that was a--you know, you' ; ve seen Animal House. It wasn' ; t quite Animal House, but it was a strange--(laughter)--it was a strange place. But, but let me, uh--and the f-- the fourth group of people were, in some ways, the most interesting group of people. They were the sons and daughters of the owners of small businesses in the small towns in Kentucky, the little shtetls of, like, Harlan and, and Hazard and Williamsburg and all--and, and they were really a, a different cut, uh, of people, very different. FERNHEIMER: What do you mean by that? How were they different? DUBOW: Well, they weren' ; t big city--they weren' ; t big city New York Jews. But you know something? We were all Jews, and that was, that was, that was certainly an equalizer. I mean, we kidded with each other and had fun, and we all got t-to know each other, and really got to love each other a lot over the years. I mean, I, I know--and of course now at--uh, now, uh, uh, a lot of them are, are gone already and dead. But I, I pretty much know where everybody was and is, and what they did in, in their lives. And we' ; ve had reunions over, over the years. This group of, of Jewish students here, uh, from about 1948 or 9 until about 1955 really fee-- felt a, a, uh, uh, a strong bond with one another, uh, I guess some more than others, uh, but I certainly felt and feel a strong bond. I mean, for me, uh, uh, coming to the University of Kentucky was one of the defining experiences of my life. You know, everybody has two or three, sometimes more, sometimes less, defining experiences, things that, that really creep into your personality, creep into your life, clee-- creep into your head, uh, and they def-- they define your life. Uh, and the University of Kentucky was one of those, for two, two reasons, basically. Number one, it' ; s Kentucky, and, uh, I mean, I, I, I identify with that, strongly. Now, I am eighty-one years old. I look at the UK, uh, website every day. (laughs) I try to watch every game. I, I, I look at the Herald Leader on, on the intern-- I live in New York, as you know. I live--uh, I, I look at the website of the, of the Herald Leader and, and read John Clay ev-- every day, practically. So, uh, and sometimes--and, of course, many of the games are on television now--sometimes when there are tight games, I really--I can' ; t stand the strain. I mean, sometimes I turn ' ; em off because the strain is too much for me. The anxiety is too much for me. That' ; s how it is--(laughs)--engrained into my life. I have all my Kentucky shirts, my hats. I have, I have all, all, all of that. I wear them, uh, proudly, uh, where-- wherever I, wherever I go. I f-- I have the feeling that some people at home think I' ; m nuts, uh, but-- FERNHEIMER: --the Wildcats have that kind of reputation. DUBOW: Yeah, right, but, but it' ; s okay. Uh, I mean, you are what you are in this world. I found that out. So, so that was--that was one of the elements that made it into a defining experience. The second element was coming from the Bronx, and from the--what I call the Jewish cocoon, into a place where Jews are really in a minority-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah. DUBOW: --uh, and learning to live i-in a, in a generalized society that' ; s not Jewish had a great, great impact on me. Uh, another thing I found out--not so much of a defining experience, but interesting to me as I went on in my life--that while Kentucky was Southern, and still Southern, and still very conservative in its, uh, in its politics, even though I can' ; t figure out why, to be honest about it, uh--fine, everybody' ; s entitled to believe what they want to believe, but it' ; s a poor state, uh, and the conservative element politically in this, in this country is not helpful to people who are, who are really poor. And I found that there were such a thing as poor whites. I mean, in, in New York we always knew that poor blacks and everybody of color was, was--you know, a lot of them were, were, were poor. But in this state there are poor whites, and that, that gave me great insight that I think not many people from my, my surrounding really, really have. I mean, there were a lot of people I went to, went to university with-- By the way, in those days the university, I think, had to accept anybody with a coll-- with a high school degree from a, from a reputable Kentucky high school, h-had to accept them in the university. I don' ; t know--I don' ; t think that' ; s the case anymore. I think it' ; s getting harder. By the way, back in the--again, to set the scene, back in those days there were about seventy-five hundred students. It was a s-- it was what we would now call a small school. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Uh, didn' ; t seem so small to me, uh, uh, at the time. It seemed rather, rather large. But now there' ; s twenty-seven to twenty-eight thousand students in the school, and, and like Lexington--when I come to Lexington, I can' ; t even find my way around anymore. I do know Limestone Street. I do Rose and Limestone Street--I do, I do know that. But it--but everything is--everything that was there is ripped down to these gigantic buildings all over. Uh, when I c-- when I came the first year, 1950, the basketball--after all, this was a national bas-- they had, they had won the national championship, uh, the year before I came to school, ' ; 48, ' ; 49--was in the alumni gym. There was a little teeny-weeny gym of a few thousand people. That was it. Uh, and played all their games there. And-- FERNHEIMER: --not like Rupp Arena. DUBOW: (laughs) And then, uh, I think it was my first year, ' ; 51, uh, they, they built a mem-- they built and opened the Memorial Coliseum, and that' ; s--and then the games shifted to the Memorial, uh, Coliseum. Incidentally, uh, I remember, uh, dramatically the first time a black player came to play at Memorial Coliseum, not on the UK--the UK didn' ; t integrate until quite a few years after, after the--into the--well into the ' ; 60s, I think. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --when was that? DUBOW: Um, this was probably ' ; 51. His name was Sully Walker. I remember that. Played for St. Johns University, from New York. And, uh, and he, and he played at the, at the Memorial Coliseum. There was some hooting and, and stuff, uh, from, from the, from the students, but by and large, uh, it, it, uh, it was accepted. By the way, I' ; ve always thought--uh, I think I' ; m right about this--um, that the university was very wise in the way it integrated itself. It really started in my day, as early as 1951. In 1951 Dr. Vandenbosch, uh, Amry Vandenbosch, who was the head of the political science department, invited the most prestigious black person in the United States, Dr. Ralph Bunche--he was, I think, at that time the American Ambassador to the United Nations, and he had, he had been the negotiator between the Arabs and the Israelis, the settlement of their, their, their first settlement in 1948, when they became a country. So he was a tremendously prestigious guy, and Vandenbosch had him come and give a lecture, uh, um, uh, at UK. That was the first time they' ; d ever had a black, a black speaker there. FERNHEIMER: And that was the same year, in 1951? Or was-- DUBOW: --nineteen--I think it was 1951, right. Now, let me talk about that a little bit. So we, we--a-and then it was reported that there was a, uh, uh, a single black graduate student. I never saw him. I didn' ; t know who he was. But people said, " ; Oh, we have a black--we have a black graduate student who, who comes here." ; So, uh, so as early as 1951--so there was, there was black then. This, this I, this I get from conversation, and I' ; m not a hundred percent sure of my facts, but I think I' ; m right. Uh, when the time came to integrate, uh, um, the first blacks were--townies were, were from Lexington, so they didn' ; t live in the dorms. And then people got used to seeing black faces in the classrooms, and it was only after that was done that they had blacks coming into the, into the dormitories. So they, they, they integrated, I think, in a very sensible, non-confrontational, uh, way, and, uh, I assume the university now is--I mean, from what I read about it--is totally, is totally integrated. I wish they had more black students, which they don' ; t, but, uh, it, it is, uh, it is totally, totally, uh, uh, integrated, which, which, of course, it should be. Now, getting back on that same subject-- FERNHEIMER: --can I ask one follow-up question before we go back? How many years elapsed between, uh, the students entering and, and being allowed into the dorms, uh, African American students, um--? DUBOW: Uh, I think it' ; s probably fifteen years, uh, maybe longer. Uh, I think it was well into the ' ; 60s, uh, uh, before the, before the school really became integrated. But there was movement, uh, even before that. Um, when I arrived, uh, there was--there were two synagogues: there' ; s a reform and a, and a conservative, which I think there' ; s still-- FERNHEIMER: --still are. DUBOW: --it' ; s still, still, still the same. It hasn' ; t changed. And by the way, I understand that the, that the, that the Jewish population hasn' ; t changed much, either. There are about two thousand Jews in, in, in, in Lexington, two, maybe a little bit more than that, uh, but not many more than that. The, uh, the reform rabbi was a rabbi, Sidney Balan (??), very nice, uh, uh, nice, nice man. And then he, uh, uh, uh--Lexington, it ref-- the reform movement was a s-- was a stepping stone place. Uh, rabbis came here, they were here for a few years, and then they went to a bigger congregation. Of course, there were no women yet, uh, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --not till later. DUBOW: N-now, now the, now the vast majority of women in both the conservative and the reform movement in, in the seminaries are women. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Uh, uh, it' ; s about time. Uh, any case, so, uh, Rabbi Maurice Davis appeared on the scene, as the rabbi, uh, uh, at the, uh, reform temple. He, by the way, in later life became--he went to Indianapolis--he became a real great leader, uh, in integration. That was his thing. He started, uh, uh, an organization called SEEK, Seeking Equal Education in Kentucky. FERNHEIMER: Huh. DUBOW: And he arranged to have the first meeting with blacks from--I, I guess from Kentucky State University, uh, which was the all-black university. And we had that meeting, uh, uh, at the student union building. I' ; m not sure everybody was so happy about it, but it was--there it was. FERNHEIMER: What year was that? DUBOW: Well, uh, it must' ; ve been ' ; 52, or maybe it was early ' ; 53. Uh, uh, of course, I, I came in January of ' ; 50, and I gra-- and I graduated in three and a half years, and I left in June of ' ; 53. So it was, it was--uh, maybe it was probably ' ; 52. And so there, there was beginning to be movement in Lexington on--in the whole business of, uh, integration. Again, it wasn' ; t really so much a Jewish thing, uh, so I didn' ; t really get into it very much. Uh, it wasn' ; t until later in my life that I got very into it, uh, uh, but I certainly was at the meeting, and I was close to Rabbi Davis. Uh, that' ; s really--that' ; s really strange. Rabbi Davis took me to Cincinnati, up to Hebrew Union College, and he said he thought I should become a rabbi. I said, " ; That' ; s the last thing in the whole world I ever want to be is a rabbi." ; I wanted to be a lawyer in those days. So I' ; ll be--I' ; ll, I' ; ll skip ahead a little bit. Uh, so I came--I came home, uh, after graduation. I went to law school for a year. It was a horrible, horrible year. I went to St. Johns Law School in New York. Horr-- I was not cut out to be a lawyer. I s-- quit after a year. I couldn' ; t stand it. The only reason I went is because my brother was a lawyer, and I thought that was a good thing to do. And I wound up being in--a social worker in the Welfare Department in New York, and then eight years as a New York State parole officer. Uh, um, I was a pistol-packing, gun-toting parole officer for eight years. It was kind of fun, until I, uh--after I got married, then it wasn' ; t so much fun anymore. And it was at that point--uh, I got sick of arresting parole violators. Uh, you know, I' ; d been doing it for a long time. Then I got married to Tish, to my, my, my non-Jewish wife. Uh, we' ; re still married, fifty-two years later. Uh, and, uh, we both got very involved in the Civil Rights struggle. We married in ' ; 61, and we, uh, we were both involved locally. Uh, we both went down to the Selma march in Alabama. We drove, we drove down, uh, to the Selma march when it, when it got, uh, uh, a day out of Montgomery, and we, we marched into Montgomery with Dr. King. I actually have a picture of him I took there. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --what was that like? DUBOW: --so I got, got interested in--I got very interested in, in it, uh, then. And then I real--I decided I really wanted to get out of being a parole officer. (laughs) And, and, uh--even though part of being a parole officer was being a social worker, too, though I enjoyed that part of it. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --can I, can I stop you there for a minute to go back and describe for me what it was like to, to march in Selma? DUBOW: Uh, well, we left--Tish and I--uh, first of all, I let them know in the division of parole that I was going, going to the march. They were not hap-- told ' ; em I was a peace officer. They said, " ; Well, you, you have to leave your gun. Don' ; t take your gun." ; So I gave them--I--they looked it away in a safe. I gave them my gun. Uh, and, uh, Tish was teaching, uh, uh, at a Catholic college over in, in Westchester, um, uh, Manhattanville College of the Sacred Heart. She was, uh, uh, teaching physical education and dance. Uh, by the way, I want to say a word about my wife. She' ; s a woman of, uh, considerable achievement. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Uh, she started out as a, uh, uh, teacher of, uh, dance, uh, uh, modern dance. Uh, we then had two children. We have two daughters. Uh, she got interested--she was always good in mathematics. She got interested in, uh, doing people' ; s taxes. She went back to school, beca-- got an, an MA in taxation and became a CPA when she was fifty. Became a CPA. FERNHEIMER: That' ; s pretty impressive. DUBOW: Right. Then--oh, it' ; s not over yet. (laughs) And then she did that, uh, and then she, um, uh, came sort of, uh, uh, not quite to the end of her career--she got involved in civic matters. She was on the zoning board, and other boards, and president of a local, uh, uh, local organization called Friends of the Nyacks--we live in Nyack, New York, on the Hudson River. And then she became a member of the Village Board, then the Deputy Mayor, and then for seven years was the Mayor. (laughs) And she only stepped down from that earlier, earlier this year. Uh, she' ; s still on the Board, but she-- FERNHEIMER: --wow. DUBOW: --uh, is no longer the mayor. So she has, uh--that' ; s, that' ; s quite a, quite a career in, in her own right. FERNHEIMER: Yes, very successful. DUBOW: And I think probably the most difficult thing for her was being married to me. (laughter) Well, I' ; m no, no bargain. Anyway, back, back-- Where was I? FERNHEIMER: Selma. DUBOW: Huh? FERNHEIMER: Selma, Alabama. DUBOW: At Selma, Alabama, right. FERNHEIMER: Right before the march. DUBOW: In Selma, Alabama. So we left New York. Uh, we, uh, we drove down to Virginia. We had friends there. Teach--Tish had taught there, uh, at Sweetbriar College for a year. Uh, and we drove, uh, uh, through, uh, Alabama, and, uh, and we arrived, uh, on the highway that runs between Selma and Montgomery. Uh, Dr. King had said--really, I' ; m, uh, uh, I' ; m, I' ; m never too much taken by what people say on the radio or on television, but he' ; s--I' ; ll never forget that ; he said, " ; I welcome people of goodwill to come and join with us." ; I, I was really touched by that. Uh, so, uh, I said, I, I' ; m coming. I said to Tish, " ; I' ; m, I' ; m going." ; She said, " ; I' ; m going, too" ; --(laughs)--and so we both went. Uh, so we, we, we got there, uh, uh, we asked people what, what you should do, and they said, " ; Well, there' ; s, there' ; s an o-- there' ; s, uh, an office, uh, somewhere." ; Uh, I parked my car at the, at the, um, airport, uh, in Montgomery, and, uh, they assigned us to a house, because the, the march had completed for that day, and we were one day out of Montgomery. FERNHEIMER: Wow. DUBOW: Uh, I wasn' ; t there for the Edmund Pettus Bridge and all of that. Uh, um, so they assigned us to, to a home of an elderly black lady, had no running water in her house, uh, and we slept there overnight, and she fed us a, a real Southern breakfast. I remember that. And then we got along the street, and there came Dr. King and the, the, the front group, and all these people behind. And we, we just got in, got in line, and we were in line, uh, with everybody else. And we walked up to the, up to the state capitol. That' ; s where George Wallace made-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah. DUBOW: --one of his impassioned speeches about " ; Never here, never, never, never" ; -- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. DUBOW: --uh, which eventually became " ; Maybe, maybe sometime." ; (laugh) Uh, in any case, uh, and then when that was over--I mean, I didn' ; t have a sense of danger. I must say that honestly. I mean, I was a-- FERNHEIMER: --that' ; s what I was gonna ask. DUBOW: I was a law officer. I' ; d been in a few dangerous situations in the arresting of parole violators--not many, but a few. I didn' ; t have a sense of danger. And we were on our way back to Atlanta to sleep over in, in At-- in Atlanta before going back north to Virginia again, and, and, and then home. And then we heard on the radio, on the car radio, that a woman had been shot. This--her name was Viola Liuzzo. It' ; s a--was a famous-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah. DUBOW: --famous, uh, uh, event. Uh, she' ; d been in, in a group of, um, KKK people, uh, saw her and, and actually shot her in her car, uh, and killed her. Uh, mother of two children and so forth, very sad. So that was, that was that. We were involved in all of the, all of the stuff in our home, in our home communities. Uh, uh, and we were, uh, very, very involved. And then I decided it was time for a career change, uh, that I really wanted to work in civil rights work. I went back to NYU. I, I had, I had started a master' ; s degree at NYU. Uh, uh, originally I wanted--believe it--I had wanted to be a warden, a prison warden. I thought that would be an interesting career for me. I now know it' ; s a horrible career, but I, but I thought it would be exciting and interesting. And so I went to NYU, because at NYU there was a small, uh, group, uh, uh, that was being trained to work in civil rights work. See, the social work schools were training counselors and psychological people. They weren' ; t doing anything for, for, for civil rights. But in the school of education, it was a professor by the name of Dan Dodson, and Dan Dodson was, uh, uh, training people in a multidiscipline master' ; s degree program. Uh, he and a, uh, African American, uh, woman professor named Jean Noble, uh, for people to go work in civil rights work. Uh, I met a, uh, a, a woman. Uh, we became friends. Uh, her name is Carol Sticks (??). Uh, and eventually Tish and I became, uh, um, very good friends with Carol and her husband Edward, and the Sticks family and the DuBow family were very, very close, became close friends. And, uh, that turned out--I got my degree, and it turned out to be the summer of Black Power. That was the end of, of Jews working in the, in the NAACP corps, SNCC, and all the rest of the organizations. FERNHEIMER: What year was that? DUBOW: That was-- Well, I, I knew that that was the end. I mean, you know, then--meanwhile, I had a job. It' ; s not that I was jobless. And she said to me, " ; Did you ever consider working for a Jewish human rights organization?" ; I said, " ; I, I' ; ll work for anybody to get out of this." ; (laughs) Uh, she said, " ; Well, I' ; m active as a layperson in something called the American Jewish Committee." ; Okay. She said, uh, they have a small office in Westchester County, New York. It' ; s a big organization. They have more than thirty offices in the United States, and they have a--and they' ; re looking for a director in Westchester. And Carol Sticks is one of the great manipulators of all time. She' ; s a--(laughter)--she' ; s really-- Well, she was sort of a politician. She was on the Scarsdale board, and she lives in Scarsdale, and, and she manipulated an interview--that' ; s a funny story, that' ; s a good story--uh, at the, at the AJC for me. So I went and I interviewed with the director of the field operation, all the thirty, thirty-two officers, uh, named Sam Katz. And Sam and I talked, and, uh, I told him that I knew Westchester, because, as a parole officer, part of my territory was in Westchester, and I knew some of the black community. I was very interested. And AJC at that time was very, very involved in civil rights work. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. DUBOW: So I' ; m--that was a good fit for me. Uh, so he said, " ; Well, I think you have the right stuff." ; He said, " ; I' ; d like you to be interviewed by my assistant," ; and he set up an appointment, and a couple of days later I went into New York, to 165 East 56th Street, where the American Jewish Committee building is, still is. FERNHEIMER: Yeah? DUBOW: And I was interviewed by his assistant, whose name was Will Katz. Uh, so Sam Katz and Will Katz. And, uh, we, we hit it off well. And he said, " ; I would really like you to be interviewed by, uh, the head of personnel. Her name is Eleanor Katz." ; (laughs) I' ; m thinking maybe I had the wrong name to get into this organization. (laughter) Any rate, uh, she interviewed me, and she said, " ; We' ; ll, we' ; ll let you know." ; Tish and I--uh, it was the end of school. I took a vacation. We went to Martha' ; s Vineyard. And, uh, uh, I called in from Martha' ; s Vineyard, and they hired me over the phone. FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow. DUBOW: They hired me over the phone. And so, uh, I came back to New York after the next week, I guess. Uh, uh, told ' ; em I was leaving. I handed in my gun, my handcuffs, my badge, and I was gone out of that to become the director of the Westchester chapter of the American Jewish Committee. FERNHEIMER: What year was that? DUBOW: This was in 1966. FERNHEIMER: Okay. DUBOW: September 19th, 1966. And I learned about AJC, and I learned about Jewish life. I mean, I was pretty secular. I mean, I didn' ; t go to synag-- I still don' ; t go to synagogue very much. Uh, uh, I was very secular. I knew very little about Jewish history and Jewish life, but I' ; m a fast learner. I, I began to learn. I learned a lot. And, and a lot of it had to do with organizing meetings, and getting speakers, and, and being good with laypeople, and I, I, I could do all of that. I had a master' ; s degree, now, in human relations and community studies. Uh, uh, so I did all kinds of things, uh, there. Uh, I was, of course, part of the national setup. And while I was in Westchester, the Six-Day War broke out. Uh, uh, and AJC went from being a civil rights organization--turned and really became much more Jewish, and very much more interested in Israel. All the, the whole Jewish community of the United States became-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah. DUBOW: --much more interested in Israel, uh, then, because there was such a, a possibility that there wouldn' ; t be an Israel, uh, in the Six-Day War, but there was. Uh, so I did that, and, uh, then in 19-- the end of 1969, um, an opportunity came, uh, to go to a bigger office in Chicago. Neither one of us had any connection in Chicago, but I flew out there a few times, and, uh, and, uh, it' ; s a great--it' ; s a great city. It' ; s great. Tish came out, and we were able to rent a house, a beautiful house, right on, right on Lake Michigan. Uh, yeah, a great house. So we--by that time we now had, had, had a daughter, Reed, R-e-e-d. Uh, and, uh, we went out to Chicago, and I was the director there. And I also had, uh, some supervision responsibilities in St. Louis, uh, and, uh, and Kansas City. And--(rolls tongue)--and probably that was probably it. Uh, and, um, eventually in Cleveland. I supervised that from Chicago. And we were there for ten years, and I learned a lot. And, and if I did one good thing--actually, I did two really good--you know, in the--in life, if you have two or three good things in life, important things in life, that' ; s, that' ; s really enough. I mean, that' ; s--uh, most people don' ; t even get that, that shot. I did two in Chicago. FERNHEIMER: What were they? DUBOW: Number one, there was the, uh, attempted Nazi, neo-Nazi march in Skokie, Illinois. They made a movie out of it. There--books have been written. Most of the books that have been written about--are the legal issues about, uh, uh, uh, the rights of a group to march, or to have any kind of a demonstration. At that time, uh, I was the AJC director. Uh, I' ; d been there for, uh, quite a while. This is now 1980--nine--let' ; s see--nineteen se-- 1978. That' ; s right. Uh, and the Jewish community of Chicago was not organized very well. There was a good fundraising operation called the Jewish United Fund, but community, uh, organization they really didn' ; t have. And so I saw that as an opportunity. I called them in New York and said, " ; I' ; m going to loan myself to the JUF, to the Jewish United Fund," ; which I did. They approved it. And so I literally moved into the federation building, and I organized the whole Jewish community. I was a good--I' ; m a good organizer. Uh, I organized the police into being marshals. I organized, uh, uh, uh, the, um, the Skokie Swift--uh, that' ; s the--uh, one of the commuter trains that doesn' ; t run on the weekends to run on the weekend. We organized a very large counter demonstration. Uh, uh, I organized speakers. I flew down to--uh, on the p-- on the governor' ; s plane. I flew down to the, to the capital, and we had a discussion with the governor about--he agreed to come. Uh, and it was a--it was a big event, and it became a big national Jewish event. Uh, and, um-- FERNHEIMER: --what were the dates? DUBOW: Uh, as a matter of fact, uh, I got a call one night at home from a guy who I didn' ; t know. He said, " ; We' ; re, we' ; re coming." ; I said, " ; Okay." ; " ; We' ; re expecting a lot of people." ; Yeah, uh-- He said, " ; We' ; re coming on a 747." ; I said, uh, " ; Where are you coming from?" ; He said, " ; We' ; re coming from Los Angeles. We' ; re coming on a, uh, an entire 747. We have all the seats on a 747. (laughs) We' ; re coming to the demonstration." ; One of the things I did, one of the smart things that I did, uh, I think, was I was in touch with the, um, Justice Department, and, and the Justice Department has a small unit in it called the Community Relations Service. And what the CRS does--I think that' ; s still there--is when there are community troubles, they send people who work for them to stand sort of in the middle-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. DUBOW: --between the warring factors, trying to see what they can do. And so they s-- they sent a couple of guys, uh, and I figured out that that was a good way--I mean, with, with, with their help--I mean, we, we talked about it, and they weren' ; t, they weren' ; t pro-Nazi--for me to communicate with the Nazis through them. And I told ' ; em, we' ; re gonna have, we' ; re gonna have a, a massive counter demonstration. We' ; re getting ready for five thousand casualties. We have hospitals and, and, and ambulances ready. Well, the Nazis are about twenty people. (laughter) The eventually, they eventually got scared and, and called the thing off. It never--it never happened. They had a little demonstration around the, the federal building on a Saturday when they knew no Jews would be there, or very few would be there, even though the guys on the 747 came. Uh, and, and then we--I dismantled, I dismantled it all. So that was, that was the number one thing. Number two thing was during the beginning of the Soviet Jewry movement-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, yeah. DUBOW: --to try to get Jews out of the Soviet Union, uh, um, one of the fellas who worked for me in Chicago, Juda Graubart (??), came to me, and he said, " ; In the paper there' ; s a little article here about a nun, a Roman Catholic nun, who made a, a speech about Soviet Jews." ; I said, " ; Really?" ; I was shocked. I mean, up until that time, it was a, it was a totally Jewish, Jewish thing. I mean, Jews, uh, talking to other Jews about a third group of Jews in the Soviet Union. FERNHEIMER: What year was this? DUBOW: This was-- Well, let' ; s see, I' ; ve got eighty-something-- Yeah, late ' ; 70s sometime. Uh, so I said, " ; Let' ; s take her to lunch." ; So we took her to lunch. Her name is Sister Margaret Traxler (??), and she was the, uh, director of something called the National Catholic Conference for Interracial Justice. The Catholic Church at that time was a very conservative--it' ; s gotten much more liberal in the--over the years--and this was the liberal--this was the left wing, the, the liberals, uh, in the, uh, civil rights, uh, uh, part of, of the Catholic church. They were very close with the National Office of Black Catholics. So she would say, " ; Yes, yes, uh, uh, we have to get Jews out of the Soviet Union. It' ; s terrible." ; Uh, so I introduced her int-- to New York, and we, we eventually set up something called a National, uh, um, uh, Council for Soviet Jewry-- FERNHEIMER: --I hear Tish in the background. TISH DUBOW: ----------(??)------------. DUBOW: Uh, uh-- Any rate, yeah, we, we set up, set up our own organization. Uh, she got another sister, Sister Ann Gillen, to be the director. Uh, it was called the National Council for, for-- TISH DUBOW: --the Conference for Interracial-- DUBOW: --the Soviet Jewry, NCC--NCCIJ. So, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --let me translate Tish from the back. The National Council for Interracial-- TISH DUBOW: --the Interracial Conference-- DUBOW: --no-- TISH DUBOW: --of, of Inter-- DUBOW: --that' ; s not right. TISH DUBOW: Okay. DUBOW: At any rate-- (laughter) FERNHEIMER: We' ; ll google it later. TISH DUBOW: Yeah. DUBOW: Right, you can delete that part. Anyway, it, it was, uh--and, and, and she became a--she became a national figure in the Soviet Jewry movement. Uh, we had her every year at the AJC national meeting. She got more applause than anybody else. Here' ; s a Catholic woman-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah. DUBOW: --Catholic nun who was going around the country trying to organize Christians on behalf of Soviet Jewry, and it all started in Chicago, and started at my office. Uh, that was, that was really--she was a great, great person, wonderful, wonderful person. She' ; s dead now. They' ; re all dead now. But, uh, uh, she was, she was a great, great person. And, uh, one time when Sharansky, who' ; s now a minister in Israel, a minister of the government, uh, but he was, he was, he was the lead person, he got arrested, she, she, uh, volunteered to exchange with the Soviets that she would go to prison if they would release him. FERNHEIMER: Wow. DUBOW: That made a lot of headlines and, uh, and all of that. Of course, they, they didn' ; t accept that, uh, and, of course, eventually the Soviet Union fell apart, and that was the, that was the end of that. So those are the--those are the two, two really good things I, I think I did in, in, uh, Chicago. So then, after now being in Chicago for ten years, uh, and adding another child, uh, uh, my, my younger daughter, Nicole, uh, the offer came for me to go back to New York and to be the supervisor of all the thirty-two offices-- FERNHEIMER: --wow. DUBOW: --to take Will Katz' ; s position. Sam Katz had retired, Will Katz had taken his place, and they were offering me the job as the director of--what they called the director of community services. So, uh, uh, in the spring of 1980, after ten years in Chicago, I moved back to--we moved back to New York, and I became the director of, of all the, all the field offices, the thirty-two offices. I traveled a, traveled a lot. And, by the way, uh, we had an off-- we still had an office in Cincinnati, and so I always arranged to, if I had to go pay a visit in Cincinnati, to arrange it at the end of the week on Friday, and then I would, I would come to Lexington, or go to Louisville. I had a fraternity brother there, Stewart Yesman (??), uh, Oliver Sholem (??) that, uh, long dead. Uh, and we would come to--he had tickets to the basketball games. And so my Kentucky connection continued throughout all of these years. Uh, um, and, and I was the supervisor of, uh, the field offices for seventeen years. And in 1989, I think it was--maybe it was 1990--uh, 1989, the American Jewish Committee, for whom now I had been working for a long time, uh, uh, started a, um, a connection to Germany. Uh, of course, Germany was, uh, looked upon by the Jewish community as a, as an enemy. This is now West Germany. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: There was a West Germany and East Germany. That' ; s, uh, something that no Jew, no self-respecting Jew would, would be interested in. But the committee--I have to say this about the committee: the, the committee has always been at sort of the forefront, on the cutting edge of Jewish thought, um, and so they decided to have a connection in Germany. And, um, uh, there was a fellow who worked for, for AJC, uh, who spoke fluent German, and he arranged with the, uh, German Foreign Office, uh, that we could have an exchange program if we could find a partner. So, uh, letters were written to various, uh, uh, institutions in Germany, and we got an answer from something called the Konrad Adenauer Foundation. As you know, Konrad Adenauer was the first, the first Chancellor of West Germany after World War II. It' ; s connected, by the way, to the Christian Democratic Party, uh, and that is the part of the, the current chancellor, Angela Merkel. It' ; s, uh, her, her party, and, uh, and the--uh, that-- So, so we set up this exchange program with the Adenauer Foundation. FERNHEIMER: Between whom and whom? Who was part of the exchange? DUBOW: Laypeople from AJC, leadership people from AJC-- FERNHEIMER: --mostly in New York? DUBOW: --and the Adenauer, and the Adenauer Foundation had--they have, uh, different kinds of people. They have younger people who are, uh, active in the party, who are professionals in various, uh, uh, professions--uh, journalists, lawyers, uh, uh, judges in training, all-- So they send a--we used to do more. We' ; re down to now about a dozen each. Originally it was about twenty each, but it' ; s a very expensive program. Still going, by the way. It' ; s the oldest American Jewish German program that there is. So, uh, when the second, uh--nineteen, uh, um, ninety-one, we, uh, uh, uh, didn' ; t have a, uh-- Wait a minute, wait a minute, n-n-- I' ; m sorry. Excuse me, 1981. I' ; m, I' ; m getting all confused about my years. Nineteen eighty-one. Uh, uh, they decided I should go with the group. That was my first trip to Germany. And it was very interesting f-- to--uh, for me. FERNHEIMER: What was it like then? DUBOW: Yeah, it was very interesting. I went with a lot of trepidation. I' ; d never been in Germany before. I' ; d been in Europe a couple times, but I' ; d never been in Germany before. FERNHEIMER: Had you lost family during World War II? DUBOW: No. I had no--had no family lost in the Holocaust. I had no connection to Germany. I didn' ; t speak German. I didn' ; t know anything about, about, you know, the German government. I mean, I began to read, and began to, began to know. But I went. Uh, and what happened to me happens to many Jews now who go to Germany and meet Germans, and they realize after a day or two that the people only, only pe-- they' ; re people. And, and the people we were meeting were people born long after World War II. Also, we made connections with the Jewish community. There was a very small Jewish community, uh, in, uh, uh, in Germany generally. There were only twenty-eight thousand Jews, uh, in Germany. Uh, uh, the largest of the groups was in, of course, in West Berlin, and there was a very small group in East Berlin. FERNHEIMER: And where were you visiting? Where were you when you were visiting in Germany DUBOW: Well, we went to, to Bonn to look at the go-- the government was in Bonn in those days. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. DUBOW: Uh, the government was not yet in Berlin. The gov-- the gov-- West German government was in Bonn. So we went to Bonn. Uh, we went to, uh, Munich. Uh, and we' ; ve--we, of course, flew into Berlin. Now, Berlin--it' ; s hard for me to explain. Berlin is a city that was surrounded by East Germany, was in the middle of East Germany, and Berlin is--was divided into four parts-- FERNHEIMER: --mm. DUBOW: --uh, the American, the German, the French, and the Russian. So it was in an island--it was an island inside of a much larger German, German Democratic Republic, or, or, or East Germany. Uh, it was--that was very interesting in itself. Now, while I was there, we were able to go into East Germany. Uh, the East Germans and the West Germans had sort of established some kind of relationship, and so we were--uh, uh, and, and I was able to, even by myself, to walk around, uh, in Alexanderplatz and around in, in East Berlin a little bit. And I' ; d read, of course, I' ; d read, read all the John Le Carre books about spies in East Germany, and, and I said, you know--(laughter)--I looked around, I said, jeez, everybody' ; s a spy. What I found out, after the wall came down, everybody was a spy. I was right! (laughter) And there was--everybody was, uh, in the Stasi. Everybody was a spy, pretty much. Uh, but, but, uh, I got to know a few people, and then AJC decided to upgrade the program, and we had another group go back in, in, uh, nineteen, uh, eighty-three. I went, I went with that--I, I-- Uh, and then, when we went back in ' ; 83--again, it' ; s a very long story which I won' ; t bore you with--uh, we were able to make a connection, uh, in East Germany, with the Communist East Germany. Uh, somebody told us, a fellow from the West Germany government, told us--he said, " ; Well, you know, you have full diplomatic relations with East Germany." ; We--I didn' ; t even know that. Nobody knew that. There had been a treaty a couple years before, quiet, nobody knew it, and that East Germany and the United States had diplomatic rela-- and we had an ambassador there. So I decided we were going in ' ; 83 with a group. Uh, let' ; s go to East Germany. So how, how do you do that? Uh, so this fellow from West Germany said, " ; Well, the State Department." ; I called the State Department. I' ; m a good organizer ; I told you that. I said, " ; Can I speak to the person who handles East Germany?" ; Said, " ; Hold on a minute" ; --(laughs)--and a guy got on the phone. He' ; s the East German desk officer. He eventually became an ambassador. Nice guy. And I explained, " ; I want to go with a group of American Jews." ; And he said, " ; Well, what would you do there?" ; I said, " ; Well, we can meet with the ambassador. We want to meet with people from the government and see what they' ; re all about, and if there are any Jews there, I want to meet with them." ; He said, " ; Well, I don' ; t know if we can do that," ; he said, " ; mostly because nobody asked before." ; (laughs) So I said, " ; Well, I' ; m asking, okay?" ; Said, " ; I' ; ll get back to you." ; About a week or two weeks later, he called me back, said, " ; It' ; s all arranged. You' ; ll be in West Berlin. We' ; ll send a US Army bus. We' ; ll bus you into East--(laughter)--East Berlin. You' ; ll meet with, uh, uh, the ambassador, and the East Germans have set up a meeting for you." ; Okay. So I met with the--we met with the ambass-- woman ambassador, uh, at that time, uh, American ambassador to-- I mean, now, in, in retrospect, it seems so funny. She said, " ; You know, you can' ; t trust them. They' ; re all Communists." ; (laughs) Well, I was saying to myself, well of course they' ; re all Communists! It' ; s a Communist government. Uh, and, uh, then we were bussed over to a, to a hotel for coffee and, uh-- And we met the, uh-- In Germany, it was called the Staatssekretär für Kirchenfragen, the state secretary for church questions, a man by the name of Klaus Gysi, and he was himself Jewish, and he was sort of the godfather to the very small Jewish community there. So we met with a few representatives of the Jewish community, and they, they said, " ; Well, there' ; s no anti-Semitism here," ; because there were no Jews, practically. Uh, uh, uh, " ; There' ; s no anti-Semitism. It' ; s a great country. You can walk free in the street," ; which, of course, it was true, uh, because if you got out of line they put you in, in, in jail. Uh, but I, I established it with, with the president--uh, uh, his name' ; s Peter Kirchner (??)--I established a relationship with him. And I--when I was leaving that day I said, " ; Is there anything we can do for you?" ; He said, " ; Yeah, we don' ; t have enough prayer books. We don' ; t have enough kosher wine, uh, uh, for Passover. And, of course, we don' ; t have a rabbi. The rabbi from West Berlin would--came and did funerals, but he didn' ; t do services. We have a, a sort of a semi-professional cantor who has--does the services." ; Okay. So I came back again--again, I' ; m a good organizer. I called the Manischewitz company and I said, " ; I' ; d like to speak to--" ; I got some manager. I said, " ; Listen, uh, there' ; s this group of Jews in East Germany. They don' ; t have enough kosher wine for Passover. What can you do?" ; He said, " ; How much do you want, and where do I send it?" ; (laughs) And he was--I don' ; t--can' ; t remember, ten cases, whatever it was, they sent it. I had gotten to know, then, a, a, uh, a woman in, uh, in Germany by the name of Rachel Salamander. She opened the first Jewish bookstore in Munich, and was the only Jewish bookstore in Germany. FERNHEIMER: When did she open the store? DUBOW: Excuse me? FERNHEIMER: When did she open the store? DUBOW: Oh, I don' ; t know. This was in the--this was now in the ' ; 80s. Uh, probably, probably shortly before that, probably 1980, something like that. She now has a store in, in Berlin, as well. Uh--(clears throat)--so, um, I said, " ; Look, I, uh, I was over in East Germany, and I met with these--and th-they don' ; t have enough prayer b---" ; I, I had no i-- " ; How, how do you get prayer books in German?" ; She says, " ; No problem, we get ' ; em in Switzerland." ; (laughter) She said, " ; How many do you want?" ; " ; I don' ; t know, twenty, thirty, forty. You send, send them--" ; I told her where to send them, and I said, " ; Send us the bill and we, and we' ; ll pay for it." ; And then I started working on getting a rabbi. I found--I found one. Uh, I found a guy in, in, uh, uh, Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, at the University of Illinois. He was sort of, uh, out of--an out-of-work rabbi, divorced, uh, and he--actually, he was Polish, but he spoke--between Yiddish and German, he spoke enough. At any rate, I took him with me to East Berlin. I became the East Berlin expert. I had no, no background in foreign affairs at all, and I became the East German guy. And so I took him with me, and we made a couple of trips back and forth to Germany, and they--and they hired him. And he, he went to live in East Berlin, and, uh, unfortunately he--there was a little bit of a scandal. He had an affair with one of the female members of his, of his-- FERNHEIMER: --congregation? (laughter) DUBOW: --congregation. To, to make--uh, to--I' ; ll tell you the, the funny part of it. The--he wanted to get out and bring her out and get married to her. She was quite a bit younger than he. Uh, but the East Germans wouldn' ; t let her out. Why? Because her father was the minis-- assistant deputy minister, I think of, uh, uh, the--of the interior. Now, in the United States, the interior is the National Parks and so forth. In East Germany, it' ; s the Secret Police. (laughs) And so they wouldn' ; t let her out. They fin-- and finally he made such a big stink, uh, that they fin-- they finally let her out. And that--and then the whole thing, the whole thing crashed down. I looked for another--and then the wall--and shortly after that the wall came down, and that was the end of that. The two Jewish communities joined together in what they called an Einheitsgemeinde, a unity community, uh, and, um, it' ; s a mess now. That' ; s a whole different story. It' ; s a mess now, uh, because--it' ; s very interesting, because the Russians have, have come to, uh, to Germany, Russian Jews, and they' ; re, you know, ninety percent, and there' ; s this friction between the old-timers and the, uh, and the new Russian Jews. And I' ; m sure in communities in the United States there' ; s the same kind of, uh, same kinds of problems. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: So, uh, all of that happened, and I was, again, doing my j-- still trying to do my job as the field director. But as I got close to my seventieth birthday I decided it was beginning to be time for me to, to retire. And so I went and I spoke to David Harris, who was the director of AJC, and still the director. And, of course, I' ; ve known him practically since he' ; s a boy. He came to us when he was quite young. He' ; s terrific, uh, terrific leader. And, uh, he said, " ; You know, we are thinking, uh, about opening an office in Germany." ; Said, " ; We have an offer of a free office for ten years in a new building that' ; s going to be built, and we' ; re thinking about having an office." ; I said, " ; Well, you know, if you' ; re thinking about having an office, you' ; d better think about me--you should think about me--because nobody in the agency knows Germany better than I do." ; He said, " ; Well--" ; I said, " ; Look, I understand. I' ; m not so young anymore. You may want somebody who really speaks German, which I don' ; t. Uh, you may want somebody in Germany. I' ; ll understand." ; Meanwhile, I had been invited, uh, by a friend in Germany to teach at the University of Bayreuth. Uh, I went to Bayreuth, because that' ; s the home of Richard Wagner, the greatest--one of the greatest anti-Semites of all time. (laughter) Uh, uh, and I thought it was a course to teach a course on the Jewish community in Bayreuth. And a f-- uh, this friend of mine in, in, invited me. His name is Michael Tsera (??). He' ; s a professor, uh, now, now retired. Uh, and I was on my way to Bayreuth, and I said, " ; You think about it and, you know, and if, and if it doesn' ; t work out, that' ; s okay, too, but I' ; m planning to--I' ; m pretty much planning to retire." ; I came back from Bayreuth after the summer, I worked into his office, and the first thing he said, before he said hello, he said, " ; You' ; re going to Germany." ; He had made up his mind that I was going to Germany. So it took another year--two years, actually--a year we didn' ; t say anything, and then a year--of course, the building wasn' ; t, wasn' ; t built yet. Uh, the building is very interesting, by the way, and I' ; ll get to that in a moment. I was, uh, uh--it, it took another year, um, 1996 to ninety, uh, to ' ; 97. And I spent a whole year traveling around the United States. I went to fifteen cities to make speeches about why the American Jewish Committee was opening an office in Germany. People were very opposed. " ; Why are you wasting your money in Germany? Uh, uh, why aren' ; t you putting the money into Israel?" ; I' ; d make the, make the case for them. Germany is Israel' ; s greatest partner in, in, in Europe. There' ; s a growing Jewish community in Germany. What happens in Germany affects all the, all the European countries. It is a tremendously important country for Jewish interests. FERNHEIMER: Mm. DUBOW: Okay, so I made that c-- ma-- made that case. Um, so, um, uh-- I had another story to tell you about that. At any rate, I, I went and, um, I had a talk with my wife, and, uh, and I said, " ; Look, I have this opportunity to go to Germany, to" ; --she had a career. She was working as a CPA. Uh, she said, " ; Well, how long would you go for?" ; I said, " ; I' ; d go for two, two and a half, three years, something like that, just to get it started. I' ; m not there for good, just to get it started, get it going, uh, and then I' ; ll find somebody to take my place." ; So I have to say on her behalf, she said, " ; I think you should do." ; Said, " ; We' ; ll manage. You' ; ll come over, I' ; ll come over, and, uh, and we' ; ll manage." ; And so I told David that, that I would do it, and, and, uh, indeed, uh, in 1997, uh, July 1, I took my, my, uh--I had an apartment to (??) a friend, my laptop, flew to Berlin-- FERNHEIMER: --no trunk this time. DUBOW: --plugged my laptop--pl-plugged my laptop into the--I' ; ll tell you about the building in a minute--uh, into my--in my apartment, into the wall. And the American Jewish Committee was the first American Jewish organization to actually have an office in the Federal Republic of Germany, and I was the first director of the office. And I' ; ll tell you about--the building was not built. Uh, you know, when the wall came down, there was West Ger-- West Ger-- West Berlin and East Berlin, and in between there was a no man' ; s land. That was the killing fields. Uh, there was barb war in the wall. Of course, the wall was there. But when the wall came down, it was like the Wild West in terms of building. All of sudden there was this--all this building, right in the middle, smack in the middle of Berlin, all this, all this room to build, and builders from all over were-- So a builder from Hamburg, uh, named Roder (??), uh, Hans Roder--he' ; s now dead, also--God, everybody' ; s dead, except me--(laughter)--uh, that' ; s what it seems like, pretty close--uh, uh, he-- FERNHEIMER: --you' ; ve got a few friends here still. DUBOW: --he, he started negotiating with, uh, the people who owned this piece of property. It' ; s a Jewish family by the name of Mosse, M-o-s-s-e. They had been-- They had been famous newspaper publishers in Germany, liberal, and when Hitler came to power in ' ; 33 they fled, and, uh, Hitler took over their building where their home was. They had a, literally a palais, a real palais. And, and where the--w-where the newspaper was printed. Uh, and this--the, the piece of property was the palais. Uh, and it' ; s in a great, absolutely great loc-- what a, what a location. Uh, right near the Potsdamer Platz. Uh, and so he started negotiating, and he, and he bought the property, uh, from, from his family. And--(clears throat)--and started to build, but ran into all kinds of problems in--with the, uh, uh, local authorities, and it took him a long time, but he finally--he finally got it, got it all done, and in February of 1998 we literally moved in, my assistant and I, uh, moved in to the building, uh, and we were the first tenants in the first building in this enormous Potsdamer Platz/Leipziger Platz area. There' ; s something really--there' ; s some significance in there somewhere-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah. DUBOW: --that a Jewish organization should be the first. And the--and we were in business. And, you know, we--and I got--I made a--I worked, I worked very hard, and I worked all the time, uh, um, seven days a week, eight--twenty-four hours a day, making the contact with the government, and all the kinds of people, so we established ourself as the voice of the American Jewish community. And indeed, when we opened the office one of the local newspapers said, " ; The American Jews have established an embassy in the Unite-- in Germany." ; They really-- Well, I was an ambassador, maybe I was an ambassador, but I didn' ; t have a car. (laughter) I didn' ; t have anything. I went to work on the subway. They have a great subway system in, in Berlin. If you' ; ve ever been there, it' ; s wonderful. And I have a good story about that. After I was there for--I got to know all the diplomats, all the government people. I got a call from the Spanish counsel general, and he said, " ; Eugene, I would like to invite you to the international club for lunch." ; Very, very, very good. Uh, I said, " ; I accept, the date' ; s open." ; I said, " ; How do I get there?" ; He said, " ; Well, your driver will know where it is." ; I said, I said, " ; I don' ; t, I don' ; t have a driver. (laughter) I don' ; t even have a car." ; He said, " ; That' ; s not a problem. I send--I' ; ll send my driver to pick you up and take you." ; So I said, " ; If your driver comes and takes me, how do you get there?" ; He said, " ; My other driver takes me." ; (laughter) So I was an, I was an ambassador with no car, no nothing, but, uh, I made some very good contacts, including the chief of staff to the president of Germany, who' ; s the formal head of the government, and I got invited to every top-flight meeting, including meeting Bill Clinton in a small reception. Uh, and so-- FERNHEIMER: --and-- DUBOW: --I, I, I set it up. And then, after about a year and a half, I decided, uh--(clears throat)--the thing is now running well. Everybody knows us. Uh, um, I began to look. And, uh, then my assist-- I only had one assistant. Uh, by the way, another good story--I have a lot of good stories. I can tell--my brother-- FERNHEIMER: --we' ; re gonna have to have another interview! DUBOW: My, my brother and my sister--uh, uh, my brother-in-law--my brother and my sister-in-law come to visit me, we' ; re in a cab, and we happen to be going from the hotel near--right by the office. And I said to the cab driver, just to find out, you know, does anybody know, I said, uh, uh, " ; What' ; s that building?" ; He said, " ; Oh, that' ; s the Jewish Committee." ; (laughter) They thought we had the building. We had this little office. There were only, there were only two of us in the, in the office. Uh, in any case, uh, uh, uh, I started looking. And I found Deidre Berger. Deidre Berger was the National Public Radio correspondent in Germany, and had been for about a dozen years. Everybody, uh, knows the, the gal from, from Italy--uh, I can' ; t remember her--I can' ; t remember her name, but, uh, but she was the German--the, the, uh-- She was Amer-- I thought--I' ; d listened to her for years ; I thought she was German. Turns out she' ; s American, she' ; s Jewish, uh, from St. Louis. And so, any rate, I hired her as an assistant. She was terrific. She took over, uh, beautifully. And, uh, with the new millennium, January 1, 2000, I left, I left the office, and she became the director. I came back to AJC for a couple of years and did fundraising, and then, then I really, uh, decided it was time. I was getting to be seventy then, and, uh, uh, I re-- retired. Uh, and now in my, in my, uh, semi-retirement, and in my dotage, uh, I, I rec-- I recognize the fact that there was very little communication between American Jews in Germany, and Germany is very important, as I said earlier, very important, uh, to American Jews--uh, to, to, uh, uh, to, to Jewish interests all over, particularly Israel. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: And Jews are very important to Germany, because without Jews there' ; s n-- there' ; s no really welcoming back in, into normal society for Germans without Jews. By the way, the Jewish community in Germany has gone from twenty-eight thousand, when the wall came down, to over two hundred thousand now. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Many from the former Soviet Union came to settle there, which caused all kinds of problems, but, but they' ; re, but they' ; re there. And we are told that there are fifteen thousand Israelis who are not connected to the Jewish community, but Israelis who are living--be-because they, because they like the cultural life, uh, in Berlin, and Berlin is, is a gr-- has become a great ci-- world-class city, really a wor-- world-class city. So I decided to do a newsletter. Uh, and it turned out--again, a long story--it turned out to be two newsletters, one basically for American Jews, and whoever else is interested, on what' ; s going on in Germany, and one for people basically in Germany on what' ; s going on in the American Jewish community. And I do each of them once a month, uh, and, uh, without much humility. I call them DuBow Digest. It' ; s a digest of, mostly a digest of what other people I' ; ve read, and some commentary by me on the subject, and that' ; s what I do. FERNHEIMER: How big is your circ-- how big of a circulation do you have each--on each of your lists? DUBOW: My mailing list is now over two thousand. FERNHEIMER: Wow. DUBOW: Uh, it started--it started with a, with a small group of people going on this exchange program. I would send them some information, and then one guy who went the year before came to me and said, " ; You know, I enjoy getting the information, but I only do it for people who are going that year." ; He said, " ; Well, put me onto the list." ; He said, " ; I like getting it." ; And then I began to think about it, and, uh, then that' ; s how the thing grew. And plus I--plus it' ; s posted on three or four different websites, uh, um, so, so, uh, you know, a, a couple thousand people read it every month, I think. Uh, and it' ; s free. Anybody, anybody who wants it, all I need is their, their email address and they get it free, you know. That' ; s my--that' ; s been my--that' ; s been my professional-- FERNHEIMER: --right. DUBOW: --uh, my professional life, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --so now, y-you' ; re here. It' ; s, uh, November 1st, 2013. DUBOW: Right. FERNHEIMER: You' ; re back at the University of Kentucky. You started by telling me this wonderful story about the--getting off that train, and your-- DUBOW: --right. FERNHEIMER: --first experiences on the train. And, and you yourself said that your experiences here at the UK--at UK were foundational, right? DUBOW: Absolutely. FERNHEIMER: So I wonder, after listening to you tell me these wonderful stories about your involvement in Selma, and creating these different kinds of meeting points of different people, whether it was in the Civil Rights Movement, or whether it was Americans and Jews, or American Jews and Germans, what was it about your experiences here? One thing we haven' ; t talked much about is, is Hillel and ZBT and those kinds of things. DUBOW: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And I wonder-- DUBOW: --well, it-- FERNHEIMER: --what was it about that that-- DUBOW: --well, it works-- FERNHEIMER: --that prepared you for this? DUBOW: --it, it-- These kinds of things--when I s-- when, when I said it re-- it really becomes integrated into your personality and into, into your life, it, it, it really has, uh, with me. Kentucky really is, is, uh, very much a part of my life, even though I--frankly, I don' ; t, I don' ; t get here very o-- very often. I was here a couple years ago, and before that four or five years before that, and maybe s-- five or six years before that. Yeah, I don' ; t come very frequently. Um, uh, but somehow, uh, you know, how do you figure what goes into a person' ; s mind, uh, and into their emotions? Uh, and it' ; s become a, a, a big part of my emotional, uh, uh, emotional being. Incidentally, I, I, I should mention, talking about Kentucky and the university, uh, it' ; s that I' ; ve done some good things in the AJC over the years, and I did one good thing for the University of Kentucky. Uh, I haven' ; t given them a lot of money ' ; cause I don' ; t have a lot of money to give them, but, uh, it dawned on me about three or four years ago--well, little more, four, maybe four or five years ago--that the University of Kentucky did not have a, an alumni club in New York City. And I started to think about that, and I looked at alumni clubs having meetings, and alumni clubs this, and alumni-- So I sat myself down, uh, and wrote a letter to President Todd. He was the president of the university then. And I said, " ; It' ; s hard for me to believe that the University of Kentucky is probably the only university in the entire--(laughs)--United States that doesn' ; t have a New York City, uh, club. Uh, uh, this is--uh, New York City is the centerpiece of f-finance in this country, and if one thing the university is in-- is interested in these days, it' ; s raising money. Uh, this is, this is the place. You have to--you know, Willie Sutton, the bank robber, u-used to say--they ask him, " ; Why do you rob banks?" ; And he said, " ; I rob banks because that' ; s where the money is." ; Well, th-that' ; s where--in New York, that' ; s where the money is. The money is in New York. And so, I gotta say, for T-- um, uh, President Todd, he was right on, I guess, immediately with Stan Key, who was the director of the, uh, alumni association, and they sent this young woman up and, and I met with her. But she, she did the smart thing: she didn' ; t lean on me. I mean, I' ; m too ol-old for that. Then she found two young women who were--who are, uh, uh, UK graduates, who would be interested in working at it, and they, they started a--they started a club. Now we found out--this, this is really shocking to me--that in the New York area there are seventeen hundred--seventeen hundred!--graduates of the University of Kentucky. And be-between the--between the, the city, the suburbs, New Jersey, and southern Connecticut, which compromise the greater New York area, there were, there were seventeen hundred. I--uh, that, that really shocked me. Uh, so they' ; ve started, and then they, they found this sports bar in New--in New York called Jack Dempsey' ; s, who now has every UK football and basketball game on a special TV hookup. (laughter) It' ; s good for them, I guess. It' ; s good business for them. But they have, they have meetings--I mean, the, the thing has really, really blossomed into a re-- to a real club, and, and does other things, including, uh, working, uh, on, uh, uh, just a, uh, just a week ago Tish and I, uh, participated with, with a few alumni in, uh, this, uh, cats for a cause. Uh, we worked at a, at a school in the Bronx. Being that I' ; m a Bronx guy, I couldn' ; t say no to that, to do some, uh, uh, good things, uh, uh, in a school in the Bronx. So they do, they do very good things. It' ; s very active. Uh, uh, I think it' ; s a good meeting place, uh, for, uh, UK graduates. And it all started f-from a letter that I sent to President Todd. So, so that, that' ; s a good thing. So, look, uh, it' ; s, it' ; s hard to, hard to explain, uh, why this kind of--you know, why do things happen. Why do people fall in love? Why do you love one person, you don' ; t love the other person? How come you, how come you love an institution and you don' ; t--by the way, I have, I have other institutions. (laughter) You know, I, I, I, I have a master' ; s degree from NYU. I get mailings from them all the time. I don' ; t care about them. I, I give ' ; em a toss. I have, I have a, another master' ; s degree from Hebrew Union College. I, I don' ; t toss those, but I don' ; t give ' ; em any money. You know, I don' ; t--you know, I' ; m not that interested in, in, in them, uh, uh, uh, as well. And I have a, an honorary doctorate from, from, uh, from HUC. (clears throat) And, and yet, when it comes to being emotionally connected, right here. Right here. That' ; s--this is the place for me. So, I mean, uh, uh, it' ; s hard--again, it' ; s hard for me to explain, uh, for instance, and stay-- staying, uh, uh, here--I never stay at a hotel, because Earl and Sarah Levy insist that we, that we stay with them. (clears throat) The food is better, and the sleeping arrangements are better than a hotel. (laughter) Uh-- TISH DUBOW: And it' ; s cheap! DUBOW: Uh, so-- (laughter) But there are people who are--you know, uh, Earl grew up here, and he spent his whole life in Lexington, uh, pretty much. FERNHEIMER: And you guys met while you were both in school here, right? DUBOW: Right, and went to school here, right, and both of them went to school here. Uh, and it' ; s hard for me to, to explain that when I--when, when the plane, when the plane crosses over the Ohio River I begin to get, to get all excited about it. You know, hey, I' ; m, I' ; m, I' ; m coming to Kentucky. I mean, this is the pl-- this is really an emotional, uh, place. We--by the way, I didn' ; t--I did not mention--(clears throat)--and I should have, earlier, that, uh, I was due to graduate in June of 1953. My youngest sister, uh, Carol DuBow, now Carol DuBow Cott (??), uh, for, I don' ; t know, fifty-five or six years, uh, at that time graduated from, from Taft High School in New York, and she came to school here. But she stayed for two years, only two years, and she went home to New York. My father wanted her home, the only girl in the family, two sons and one daughter, and she finished up there. But so she has, she has friends and, and, uh, and actually Sarah Levy was, was, uh, was her roommate, uh, uh, when, when, when Carol came here in January of 1953, in ' ; 53. And about the Levy--the Levys are great people. Uh, uh, uh, Mary--and, and, and Sarah' ; s sister, Sonia, showed extremely good taste, extremely good taste. She and I dated, and we were pinned, actually, you know. But, uh, she gave me back the pin and she married a fraternity brother of mine, Ivan Goldfarb--(laughter)--and she showed very good, very good taste and good common sense in marrying him and not marrying me. Uh, so, uh, so we had--so we have a lot of, uh, family connection here, uh, uh, family connection here, as well, friends, friends, uh, connection, long, long-term, fifty-, fifty-, sixty-year friends, maybe more, because I started here sixty-four years ago, and there are people here I know, have known for sixty-four years. That' ; s a long time to have a friendship, and, uh-- So Kentucky' ; s very, very special for me, and, I must say, though, now, turning to the new, to the new UK, the new--I, I' ; m shocked. (laughs) The size of it is gi-- gigantic. When we were here, I don' ; t know, uh, maybe it was the spring before last, uh, we went to a baseball game. Tish and I went to a baseball game. I had a r-r-- a rented car, and I parked it in the street somewhere, and we walked it around to the, to the baseball field, and we, we went to the baseball game. And, um, I couldn' ; t find the car. (laughs) I couldn' ; t find--we were walking up and down the streets and I couldn' ; t find the car. I mean, the whole thing has gotten so big, I thought--and I, I thought I knew, knew Lexington. Well, I don' ; t know Lexington. By the way, what we had to do is there was a UK policeman directing traffic after the game, and I went over to him. He was--in typical Kentucky fashion, he said to me, " ; Wait a few minutes," ; and he took us in his car, and he drove around all the streets. And I try to, I try to explain to him where we were, and he--and we--and he located the car for us. Uh, instead of saying, " ; Well, go here, go there," ; he took us in his--in the police car. Uh, um, so the, the size of it is, is just gigantic. The, the hospital, the medical school. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: After all, when I was there, there was no medical school. Uh, there was no, uh, dental school. Uh, the pharmacy was in, in Louisville. Uh, it was just--uh, it was a s-- it was basically a small school. And, of course, Lexington w-was a, was a farm town. You know, it was really a farm town. Maybe, maybe it' ; s gotten a little bit bigger. There was, there was one company in all of Lexington, one manufacturing company, called Irving Air Chute. They made parachutes, uh, and that, and that was it. Other than that, it was tobac-- all along Limestone Street, opposite the university, were tobacco warehouses. There, there--I mean, I can still s-- I can still smell them. They' ; re not there anymore, because, uh, because nobody smokes anymore. If you have--if you have any common sense you don' ; t smoke. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: Current, current people-- I' ; m sorry--(laughter)--if you smoke. Uh, but, uh, I mean, uh, there' ; s no more real tobacco, uh, industry, uh, any longer. FERNHEIMER: Can I interrupt you just for a second, Gene? We don' ; t have a whole lot of time left today, although I imagine-- DUBOW: --really? FERNHEIMER: --we' ; re gonna probably have hours and hours of stories later. DUBOW: (laughs) Well, I think I--I think I told you everything. FERNHEIMER: But I want to--I want to ask you a few specific questions-- DUBOW: --please. FERNHEIMER: --about what it was like. You mentioned the Levys. You mentioned all these people you know from the fraternity. And we haven' ; t really talked that much about what it was like to be in the Jewish fraternity. DUBOW: Ah, what it was like to be in a Jewish fraternity. FERNHEIMER: And sort of what--how' ; d you--you found it through these other guys, and you--it sounds like you found it kind of early, but walk me through that a little bit. DUBOW: Well, first of all, it was a lot of fun. Uh, there, there, there were--it was a great, great group of people, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --how big was it? DUBOW: --living in a very, very, very, uh, small, small area. I mean, 113 State Street is small. FERNHEIMER: How many guys were in the house? DUBOW: How--uh-- FERNHEIMER: --or, or in the fraternity and living in the house? DUBOW: Oh, there was, there was a--you know, uh, there was a, a--you know, there was a, a president and a board. I mean, I mean, there was some organization, uh, and, and everybody--uh, most people had some kind of job. Uh, um, it seemed to me the higher you went, the lower you got, because eventually I became the president of the fraternity, 1952 to 1953. And the thing you got, as the president, you got the only single room. But--(laughter)--the single room was right next to the bathroom. There were, there were, there were, there were two, two sinks and a toilet, and then you walked into the president' ; s room. So you had the, you had the honor of, uh, of having the bedroom right near the, the, uh, the, the john, uh, and there was just a, a small door in between--(laughter)--and, and it was, uh-- I would say it wasn' ; t much of an honor. Uh, uh, but, uh, people, people took it seriously, I mean, took, took the, the fraternity seriously. Uh, it--uh, we had meetings, and we had-- FERNHEIMER: --how often did the meet-- DUBOW: --we had responsibilities. And also, it was the integrating force for many of us, or all of us, in, in, in university life, until this got-- Maybe it' ; s different now, but in those days fraternities were, were where all the social life was. All the social life was in fraternities. It was very little, uh, other. You know, I haven' ; t gotten into, by the way, to Hillel. I was the president of Hillel for, for a year, uh, a-and, and, and all of that. FERNHEIMER: What year was that? What year did-- DUBOW: --' ; 51 through ' ; 52. Uh, uh, I did--I think I did su-- such a splendid non-job--(laughs)--in, in, uh, i-in, uh, uh, uh, Hillel that they decided I should become the president of the fraternity. Uh, but in the fraternity we had some, we had some interesting things. We have--one of the, the most interesting things--I won' ; t mention any names, but during the Christmas holiday, when everybody left to go home, one guy stayed on. Evidently he didn' ; t have much family. And when we got back, a few guys were missing textbooks. And, um, one of the--uh, another one of the guys in fraternity decided that that was not just something that happened, and went around and through the Kennedy bookstore, which is still here. It--by the way, it opened while I was at school. I think it opened in 1951. It' ; s still there in the same place. Uh, and said, " ; Did anybody come here and sell textbooks?" ; And said yeah, so forth. And it was one of the fraternity brothers. And so we had a whole long discussion. It was a diffi-- it was difficult, uh, to decide what to do with him. Uh, he admitted it, admitted. He' ; d gotten drunk. He drank a lot. He got drunk, didn' ; t have any money, and thought that was the only way to get some, some-- I mean, how much money could it have been, a few bucks? But, but, but to steal stuff from a fraternity brother, that' ; s serious business. Well, uh, I had to do my Job number and, uh, and what we did was we decided to put him on probation, that he wouldn' ; t--he would not be allowed to come to any meetings, not at--participate in any--and we part-- we participate in all the university things, you know, the homecoming and, and, uh, uh, all the things that, that fraternities, uh, do. We had fraternity dances. The inter-fraternity council had big band dances in those days. He couldn' ; t-- We, we finally reinstated him at the end of the year, but, but, people haven' ; t forgotten. And I--he' ; s dead now, so, okay, it' ; s, it' ; s a dead issue--really a dead issue--(laughter)--uh, but I, but I' ; ve never forgotten. I' ; ve never forgotten. See, it was a close, very intimate group of people. Uh, and, and not only would we live altogether but we were all Jewish, in a, in a world that wasn' ; t Jewish. And so that, that was-- Now, that didn' ; t mean that we only dated Jewish girls. Uh, some, some did, some didn' ; t. And there was a lot of mixed dating. It' ; s interesting that, that one or two of the guys-- ------------(??) without names--that never--wouldn' ; t date a Jewish girl have, in later life, become very, very active in their Jewish communities. (laughter) Somehow, somehow that happened. Uh, and, um, uh, I was on the inter-fraternity council. I was on the interfaith council. That was a--that was an interesting, uh, thing for me where groups from all the, the Christian denominations were. And I, I remember once having to explain that we did not participate in the Easter ceremony, uh, and I think people were surprised. I mean, it' ; s hard for me to know how they looked at Jews. I mean, most of them didn' ; t think about it. Not--you know, I, I guess there were a few that, you know, had these, you know, horns, and had--Jews had horns and, you know, and were devils, and--you know, maybe, maybe a few. But the most people--just most people just didn' ; t think about it, never thought about it. They met a Jew, they really didn' ; t know, didn' ; t know, " ; Oh, you' ; re Jewish, you know, what, what' ; s that all about." ; They had no idea what that was, what went into it. They knew it wasn' ; t so good, but, but, uh, uh, uh, they really--they really didn' ; t turn out to be hostile, and a lot of ' ; em turned out to be q-- you know, quite positive. One of the leading, uh, people at the university was he professional who, who handled the interf-- interfaith council. Name is Bart Peak (??), and Bart Peak was very good at integrating Jews into the interreligious situation, uh, at UK. Now, in, in, in many ways we' ; re just seen as another, another religious group, just another small religious group, not, not of, not of great significance, uh, at all. FERNHEIMER: And yet it seems like it was really important for you to be part of the Jewish fraternity, and to be involved with things that were Jewish, whether it was Hillel or the fraternity. DUBOW: You know, today--of course, I have a long, now, a long career in Jewish, in Jewish organization and life, and I hear, I hear young people--or it being said about young people--that being Jewish is an option. I, I must, I must tell you: I, I don' ; t even understand that. I can' ; t--I can' ; t understand that. I' ; ve tried, tried to intellectually think, you know, how could that be an option? I mean, you are. You' ; re, you' ; re Jewish. That' ; s it. I mean, at least where I come from, at the time that I came from. Maybe for younger people today they say, " ; Well, if I' ; m not Jewish I' ; m something else," ; you know. To me, it was never an option. I am what I am what I am, and it was never--and as long as it was a Jewish group here, I mean, certainly I was going to be a member of it, which I, which I was, and am very glad that I was. It was a great, great experience for me. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Well, it sounds like those early leadership roles, as president of Hillel, president of-- DUBOW: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --uh, ZBT--you say--you referred to yourself several times throughout this piece as a good organizer. Do you think you got your start back then? DUBOW: Yeah, I th-- I--well, I think that' ; s true. I didn' ; t have any experience before this in, in organizational life, and how organizations worked. Uh, and, and, of course, I spent my whole life in organizations here and afterward, literally my whole life in organizations. Uh, so, uh, I mean, even when I was a parole officer I was a--I was one--I was the vice president of the New York State Parole Officers Association, uh, and the, the union, and stuff. And so, so that was an--that was--that was important for me, as well, uh, certainly. But the most important thing was to bring the fact that I was Jewish to the forefront of my thinking, which I didn' ; t think about very much before. And, uh, that has, uh, stood me, I think, in pretty good stead. Uh, and, uh, I just, I just--I hope today that younger people, you know, have, have more of a feeling than I, than I hear them having. I hope it' ; s more, more serious than that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Thank you so much for talking with me today. I hope it won' ; t-- DUBOW: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --be the first--or hope--it' ; s the first time we' ; ve gotten to talk in this way. (laughter) I hope it won' ; t be the only time. DUBOW: I, I don' ; t know, I think-- I think I' ; ve told you everything that, that there, there--pretty much that there is, that there is to tell, uh, and, uh, of course, it was allotted--I don' ; t know, was it close to two hours? It' ; s-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah. DUBOW: --close to two hours. FERNHEIMER: I-- DUBOW: --that' ; s a, that' ; s a lot. FERNHEIMER: I guess I' ; ll ask you one more thing. Since it is-- DUBOW: --yeah. FERNHEIMER: --homecoming weekend, and you' ; re back for your sixty-fourth, uh, anniversary of being, uh, a student here at UK, what do you--what was homecoming like back then, and what, what' ; s it like compared to what you' ; ve seen since you' ; ve been back? DUBOW: Homecoming--uh, my recollection is we, we put up things in front of the fraternity house, uh, uh, some kind of decorations and stuff, or something. They judged the--they ju--- We never won anything. Uh, and we-- FERNHEIMER: --but you guys participated-- DUBOW: --and we--by the way, we had teams. We had teams, also. We never won anything, either, uh, with our teams. We weren' ; t, we weren' ; t great athletes, even though we had a couple of really good basketball players, uh, but we didn' ; t, we didn' ; t win very much. And, um, the, the, the important thing is we were like everybody else. That' ; s it. And we were taken like everybody else. Uh, we were--we participated like everybody. We participated fully, with the exception, maybe, of, of Easter and, and, uh, and, and Christmas, uh, but we participated in our own way, and we were certainly an integral part of the University of Kentucky, and, uh, and I think we did pretty well. Uh, it' ; s, it' ; s, it' ; s a hard burden (??) to me, and I' ; ll leave you with this last thought: um, as I was leaving the fraternity in 1953, the National Interfraternity Council, uh, started to have meetings on the question of whether all fraternities should be religiously integrated, but they didn' ; t talk about, uh, racial, because there was--there were Southern-based, uh, organizations, but, uh, uh, they started to talk about, uh, uh, having those kinds of restrictive clauses--(clears throat)--in fraternity life taken out. And, indeed, that' ; s what happened. Uh, and once that happened, then, as I understand it--and I wasn' ; t--I was no longer here--uh, then Jews could be members of other fraternities. They were rushed by other fraternities. They could be--and, and, and ZBT could, could have non-Jewish members, as well. And so the, the intra part of, of, uh, of ZBT sort of, uh, I think, fell apart. Its raison d' ; être--and by the way, it' ; s still, it' ; s still active somehow. (clears throat) After forty years, or fifty years, they finally found me again and started sending me--(laughs)--emails and asking for money, uh, uh-- (laughter) Of course, I haven' ; t had anything to do with them in, in, in, you know, in a long time. But I think that, that ZBT as a Jewish entity was no longer a J-- totally Jewish entity, and that really ended it. And I don' ; t know exactly--you' ; ll have to ask Earl Levy. He, he knows all about those things, uh, about how long-- But I don' ; t think it lasted another five years, maybe, and then it--and then it sort of--five or six years, then it frittered away. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. DUBOW: And that' ; s it. FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you, Gene. DUBOW: Thank you. Thanks for asking me. FERNHEIMER: Yes. It' ; s been a real pleasure. Uh, today is November 1st, 2013. I' ; m not sure if I did that at the beginning, and I think I was supposed to. So, thank you. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2013oh495_jk002_dubow_ohm.xml 2013oh495_jk002_dubow_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Eugene Dubow, November 1, 2013
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Eugene DuBow was born and was raised in The Bronx in New York City. He speaks about the public schools he attended, and about how the schools redistricted as a result of WWII in case there were air raids in the city. DuBow graduated from high school in January of 1950 and ultimately decided to go to the University of Kentucky. When DuBow moved to Lexington, he had his first experience with segregation on the train ride to Kentucky.
When DuBow arrived at the University of Kentucky he was given a dorm room in Bowman Hall, and he discusses some experiences he had with his Kentuckian roommates and his first college classes. He names some of the Jewish people he met on campus in his first year as well, and how he was introduced to the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity. Dubow speaks about the Jewish community in Lexington, Kentucky while he was a student at the University of Kentucky. There are now, and have historically been, two synagogues in Lexington, Kentucky: Temple Adath Israel (Reform) and Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Conservative).
He also speaks on the project founded by Rabbi Maurice Davis called SEEK, Seeking Equal Education in Kentucky, that was part of the initial movement of integration at the University of Kentucky. DuBow speaks about when he and his wife marched on Montgomery with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. After the March on Selma, DuBow decided he wanted to return to civil rights work. While pursuing a master's degree from NYU, he met a woman named Carol Stix who connected him to the American Jewish Committee in Westchester, New York. In 1966 he became the director of that chapter of the AJC.
In the late 1970s, DuBow and the AJC worked together with the Catholic Church to set up an organization to help Soviet Jews get out of the Soviet Union. DuBow describes an exchange and relationship he built between the American Jewish Committee and West Germany. After discovering that the United States had diplomatic relations with East Germany, DuBow organized a trip with the State Department and met with the American ambassador there.
Identifier
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2013oh495_jk002
Subject
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University of Kentucky
Jewish leadership
Religion and politics
Worship (Judaism)
King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968
Race discrimination.
United States--Race relations.
Civil rights movements--United States
African Americans--Segregation
Lexington (Ky.)
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Format
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video