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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Martin Kaplan
Interview Keyword
Discrimination.
Anti-Semitism
Antisemitism
Family histories.
Jewish families.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2016oh059_jk021 Interview with Martin Kaplan, May 12, 2016 2016oh059_jk021 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Lexington (Ky.) Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Religion University of Kentucky. Medical Center Physicians--Kentucky Military service, Voluntary--United States. United States. Army Air Forces Medical education Universities and colleges. Discrimination. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Family histories. Jewish families. Martin Kaplan Janice Crane 1:|20(7)|42(3)|61(18)|93(10)|118(5)|143(5)|164(12)|173(13)|184(3)|194(3)|204(14)|212(13)|229(7)|241(2)|255(2)|271(10)|279(3)|299(9)|311(4)|331(3)|345(10)|360(3)|387(8)|404(12)|419(11)|443(3)|455(8)|468(1)|479(2)|492(6)|507(3)|520(2)|539(1)|547(1)|559(7)|585(4)|595(15)|608(5)|621(3)|638(3)|652(12)|661(5)|669(10)|686(4)|698(12)|711(8)|720(13)|739(14)|758(8)|773(2)|793(9)|801(10)|809(9)|819(13)|832(11)|844(6)|859(13)|878(14)|889(2)|903(6)|914(2)|926(3)|940(3)|950(3)|969(4)|981(4)|989(14)|999(10)|1009(13)|1024(10)|1034(3)|1046(13)|1056(3)|1067(2)|1077(11)|1084(13)|1095(13)|1106(16)|1113(15)|1127(1)|1145(10)|1160(13)|1169(2) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253328350" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family history and Jewish life growing up in New York City For official purposes, today is May the 12th, 2016. My name is Janice Crane. And I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewi, Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I'm honored to be here today with Dr. Martin Kaplan. So let's begin. For the record, what was your name at birth? Dr. Martin Kaplan was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1928 and raised in the Bronx, New York City. Both of his parents, Samuel (born in 1899) and Clara Kaplan worked as school teachers. His father was a Russian immigrant from a village named Olshan near Vilna, Lithuania. Dr. Kaplan has one brother, Ray Kaplan. Dr. Kaplan has 3 children, Janet Kaplan, Lisa (Kaplan) Ward, and David Kaplan. All three children were born to his first wife, Hazel (Nickie) Kaplan. His second and current wife's named is Odette Saada Kaplan. Both of Dr. Kaplan's parents were raised in Orthodox Jewish homes but became more liberal with their Judaism in their own homes. Dr. Kaplan recalls lighting Shabbat candles, having a bar mitzvah, and keeping kosher at home, but seldom attended synagogue. He also discusses some systemic anti-Semitism within both the Dupont company and Columbia University with respect to their reluctance to accept many Jews into their organizations. Bar mitzvahs ; Brooklyn (N.Y.) ; Canarsie (N.Y.) ; Clara Kaplan ; Clara Sussman ; Columbia University ; David Kaplan ; DuPont ; Flushing (N.Y.) ; Hazel " ; Nickie" ; (Nixon) Kaplan ; Hebrew School ; High Holy Days ; Jacob Ward ; Janet Kaplan ; Jersey City (N.J.) ; Kosher ; Lisa (Kaplan) Ward ; Morocco ; Odette Kaplan ; Orthodox Judaism ; Pushelat (Lithuania) ; Queens (N.Y.) ; Ray Kaplan ; Romania ; Samuel A. Kaplan ; Shtetl ; Syracuse University ; The Bronx (N.Y.) ; Vilna (Lithuania) ; Yiddish Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 40.8447819, -73.8648268 17 The Bronx, New York http://imgur.com/D0WiuqC Dr. Martin and Odette Kaplan 884 Undergraduate studies at Syracuse University in the 1940s Okay. Where did you attend undergraduate school? And what did you study? After graduating from DeWitt Clinton High School, Dr. Kaplan attended the City College of New York for one year. He then transferred to Syracuse University, his father's alma mater. Kaplan majored in chemistry and was persuaded to become a doctor by one of his professors. He was a member of various clubs in order to expand his resume for medical school. He spent some time campaigning for third party presidential candidate, Henry Wallace, in the 1948 election. Brooklyn College ; Chemistry Major (Syracuse University) ; City College ; City College of New York ; French Club ; Harry Truman ; Henry Wallace (1948) ; Hunter College ; Queens College ; Richard Nixon ; Syracuse University College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; College students--Social networks ; Universities and colleges. 43.03841949257998, -76.13536033546552 17 Syracuse University https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Henry-A.-Wallace-Townsend.jpeg Henry Wallace 1325 Time in medical school at SUNY Downstate Medical Center / experiences in the U.S. military I happen to be personally aware that you are, although retired now, a medical doctor who specialized in allergies and immunology. Dr. Kaplan went to medical school at State University of New York Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, New York. He completed an internship at Long Island College Hospital and began a residency in pediatrics at Brooklyn Jewish Hospital. He joined the United States Air Force between the Korean and Vietnam wars because of the likelihood he would be drafted as a doctor. He was stationed at Greenville, South Carolina where he would later meet his first wife Nicki Nixon. Although he wanted to work in pediatrics while he was stationed there, he instead worked in obstetrics delivering babies. After his time in the military was over, he moved back to Syracuse to finish his pediatric residency only to add an additional year of residency in allergy medicine. While in Greenville, he attended the local reform synagogue. His wife converted to Judaism through the rabbi at the conservative synagogue in Greenville. Dr. Kaplan adds an anecdote about how he became a Yankee fan. Allergists ; Brooklyn Jewish Hospital ; Conservative Judaism ; Doctor draft ; Greenville (S.C.) ; Immunology ; Jewish conversion ; Korean War ; Long Island College Hospital ; Long Island College of Medicine ; Mel Ott ; New York Giants ; New York Yankees ; Obstetrics ; Reform Synagogue ; State University of New York Downstate Medical Center ; Syracuse (N.Y.) ; United States Air Force ; Vietnam War Jews--Identity. ; Medical education ; Military service, Voluntary--United States. ; Physicians ; United States. Army Air Forces ; Universities and colleges. ; Worship (Judaism) 40.655431, -73.945718 17 State University of New York Downstate Medical Center https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-waymarking-images/e2e55e63-13e9-4dd3-9c1d-b90dca2b6934_d.jpg Sign commemorating the Donaldson Air Force Base in South Carolina. 1967 Lexington, Kentucky medical community in the 1950s and 1960s When did you move to Kentucky? Dr. Kaplan moved to Lexington, Kentucky in 1959 where he joined an allergy practice with Dr. Maurice Kaufmann and Dr. Lloyd Mayer. He discusses the medical community that existed in Lexington at this time and the Jewish doctors that he could recall. Soon after he moved to Lexington, the University of Kentucky began its own medical center. The Fayette Medical Society began as a result and its first president was a Jew named Dr. Rankin. Dr. Franklin Moosnick ; Dr. Jack Hill ; Dr. Ken Gerson ; Dr. Larry Hemmings ; Dr. Lloyd Mayer ; Dr. Maurice Kaufmann ; Dr. Neven Gardner ; Dr. Rankin ; Fayette County Medical Society ; Lexington Medical Society ; University of Kentucky Medical Center Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Physicians--Kentucky ; University of Kentucky. Medical Center 38.031695, -84.50909230000002 17 University of Kentucky Medical Center 2707 Involvement in the Lexington Jewish community 1959-present Describe the importance of connecting to some part of the Jewish community, when you arrived in Lexington. Upon moving to Lexington, Dr. Kaplan joined Temple Adath Israel, the only reform temple in the city. He also joined B'nai Brith. He became president of the congregation at one point when there was an attempted " ; uprising" ; against the Rabbi of the time--Rabbi Leffler. He goes on to name the different rabbis of the congregation over his years of membership. He discusses his current wife's membership in the Hadassah organization. Hadassah has a disproportionately active chapter in Lexington in relation to the total population of the city due to the leadership of its current members. Dr. Kaplan then discusses how the Jewish community of Lexington helped support his Jewish lifestyle with resources such as the Temple, the Federation, and Jewish Summer Camps for children. B'nai Brith ; Camp Young Judea ; Dr. Bang ; Dr. Ken Gerson ; Dr. Milt Gellin ; Dr. Stan Saxe ; Gail Cohen ; Hadassah ; Jewish Federation ; Judy Saxe ; Kosher ; Lexington Medical Society ; Marilyn Moosnick ; Odette Kaplan ; Rabbi Adland ; Rabbi Leffler ; Rabbi Marc Kline ; Rabbi Roberts ; Rabbi Rothman ; Shabbat ; Tel Yehuda ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, Ky.) ; University of Kentucky ; VA Hospital Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0356369, -84.48284489999997 17 Temple Adath Israel, Lexington, Kentucky https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Hadassa_ein_karem.jpg Hadassah Ein Karem 3722 Dr. Kaplan's Jewish identity How did your relationship to Judaism and your practices differ from that of your parents? Dr. Kaplan explains his relationship with Judaism in comparison to his parents' and his children's. He also describes the evolution of his Jewish identity as he has moved throughout life from The Bronx to Greenville, South Carolina, to eventually Lexington, Kentucky. He describes his support of Zionism and his family's connection to the Holocaust growing up. His wife, Odette, has family that immigrated to Israel from Morocco in the 1950s and 1960s so since his marriage to her, his support of Israel and Zionism has grown. He also tells two stories. The first about calling a friend in New York where his son asked if Dr. Kaplan knew Daniel Boone and the other about visiting the rabbi that married him and his first wife in Israel. He concludes by talking about family that he found later in life that survived the Holocaust and immigrated into Israel. Arabs ; Daniel Boone ; David Kaplan ; Fess Parker ; French Village ; Greenville (S.C.) ; Hamburg (Germany) ; Holocaust ; Israel ; Jacob Ward ; Jerusalem ; Jews ; Lisa (Kaplan) Ward ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Morocco ; Odette Kaplan ; World War II ; Zionism Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Religion ; Religion and politics ; Worship (Judaism) 31.78185, 35.23552700000005 17 Islamic (Arab) Quarter of Jerusalem https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Fess_Parker_as_Daniel_Boone.JPG Fess Parker as Daniel Boone interview Dr. Martin Kaplan was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1928 and raised in the Bronx, New York City. Both of his parents, Samuel (born in 1899) and Clara Kaplan worked as school teachers. His father was a Russian immigrant from a village named Olshan near Vilna, Lithuania. Both of Dr. Kaplan's parents were raised in Orthodox Jewish homes but became more liberal with their Judaism in their own homes. Dr. Kaplan recalls lighting Shabbat candles, having a bar mitzvah, and keeping kosher at home, but seldom attended synagogue. He also discusses systemic anti-Semitism. After graduating from DeWitt Clinton High School, Dr. Kaplan attended the City College of New York for one year. He then transferred to Syracuse University, his father's alma mater. Dr. Kaplan went to medical school at State University of New York Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, New York. He joined the United States Air Force between the Korean and Vietnam wars because of the likelihood he would be drafted as a doctor. He was stationed at Greenville, South Carolina where he would later meet his first wife Nicki Nixon. His wife converted to Judaism through the rabbi at the conservative synagogue in Greenville. Dr. Kaplan moved to Lexington, Kentucky in 1959 where he joined an allergy practice with Dr. Maurice Kaufmann and Dr. Lloyd Mayer. He discusses the medical community that existed in Lexington at this time and the Jewish doctors that he could recall. Upon moving to Lexington, Dr. Kaplan joined Temple Adath Israel, the only reform temple in the city. He also joined B'nai Brith. He became president of the congregation at one point when there was an attempted " ; uprising" ; against the Rabbi of the time--Rabbi Leffler. He goes on to name the different rabbis of the congregation over his years of membership. He discusses his current wife's membership in the Hadassah organization. Dr. Kaplan explains his relationship with Judaism in comparison to his parents' and his children's. He describes his support of Zionism and his family's connection to the Holocaust growing up. CRANE: For official purposes, today is May the 12th, 2016. My name is Janice Crane. And I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky oral history project, funded by the Jewi-Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I' ; m honored to be here today with Dr. Martin Kaplan. So let' ; s begin. For the record, what was your name at birth? KAPLAN: Martin Paul Kaplan. CRANE: And when and where were you born? KAPLAN: Brooklyn, New York. To be exact, I only lived there for one year. CRANE: Okay. Where did you go after that? KAPLAN: Queens, Flushing, New York, for one year, and then the Bronx. There was a reason for the--My father was a high school teacher, just starting out. He was transferred from a school in Brooklyn to a school in Queens and then the Bronx. So then we stayed in the Bronx. CRANE: What were your parents' ; names? KAPLAN: Uh, Samuel A. Kaplan and Clara Kaplan. CRANE: And what was your mother' ; s maiden name? KAPLAN: Clara Sussman. CRANE: Where were they from and what were their occupations? You' ; ve mentioned that your father was a schoolteacher. KAPLAN: Yeah. He wa(clears his throat)--he was born in Russia. Was actually the Lithuanian part of Russia, at that time. And he came over here at age seven. And he went to Syracuse University too, at the College of Forestry. And then he became a schoolteacher, a year or two before I was born. My mother was born here, in U -US, lived CRANE: And did your mother have an occupation outside the home? KAPLAN: Uh, yeah. She became school-schoolteacher, elementary schoolteacher, uh, which she did before she got married. CRANE: Uh, in speaking with your grandson, who happens to be here as well, listening to us today, Jacob Ward, he had also mentioned that your--uh, part of your family had come from Lithuania. And I was just curious as to where in Lithuania they might have come from. KAPLAN: It was a village near Vilna. And I have the name o' ; the village at home but I couldn' ; t tell ya. CRANE: I was just, uh, sort of curious, because my family roots were also from a shtetl in Lithuania called Pushelat, like many of the Jewish people around Lexington. KAPLAN: Yeah. CRANE: And I was always wondering if there' ; s just one more family that' ; s somehow connected. Uh, did your parents' ; or grandparents' ; names change, when they came to this country? KAPLAN: No. CRANE: Okay. Uh, do you have siblings? And if so, what are their names and ages relative to you? KAPLAN: Yeah. My brother, Ray, is seven years younger than me CRANE: --okay KAPLAN: --lives in Philadelphia. (coughs) CRANE: Just the two of you? KAPLAN: Yes. CRANE: Okay. And what is your wife' ; s full name? KAPLAN: Odette Kaplan. Her middle name is Saada, S a a d a. CRANE: And like you said, she was born in Morocco. KAPLAN: Yes. CRANE: Okay. And I know you were married prior to--uh, to Odette. And what was your first wife' ; s name? KAPLAN: Uh, Nickie . CRANE: And her maiden name. KAPLAN: Her maiden name was, uh--Oh. WARD: No, was Nixon, right? KAPLAN: No, Nixon was--' ; Cause they change--Yeah, it was Nixon. That' ; s right. Yeah. CRANE: Okay. And this is for the real test. And the names and ages of your children and your grandchildren, Jacob being one of them. KAPLAN: Names and ages, not birth year but just age. CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: Well, Jacob, I would say, is twenty-two or close to it--(laughs)--Lisa is uh, she was born in 1960. That would be, uh CRANE: --you can do the year KAPLAN: --' ; 40--1940--1960, she was born. CRANE: Okay. KAPLAN: So she' ; s--forty--fifty-six. Yeah. And Janet was born in 1951, so she would be 65. CRANE: Those are grandchildre--? Those are KAPLAN: --those are children CRANE: --children. Okay. And you have more children? KAPLAN: Three children. WARD: An KAPLAN: --and then, uh--because my wife has children. CRANE: Okay. WARD: And then Dave. What year was David born? KAPLAN: Well, let' ; s see. We were talking about oh! Lisa, Jacob, and David. David was born in 1971. CRANE: Okay. KAPLAN: So he is 46, yeah. CRANE: How would you describe your parents' ; , both your mother and your father' ; s, relationship to Judaism? KAPLAN: Well, my father was born into a Orthodox family. His parents--at least his father was very strictly Orthodox. Uh, so that' ; s the background. I guess that' ; s what you asked. Because my father did not continue to be Orthodox. My mother was born into a typically Orthodox family, not as JD: --do you--do y KAPLAN: --not as strict-- JD: --do you recall spending time with your grandparents and what it was like, uh, spending time in the Orthodox homes? KAPLAN: I never spent much time with my-- WARD: --uh-- KAPLAN: --paternal grandparents. Uh, let' ; s see. My grandfather lived in part of Brooklyn called Canarsie, uh, visited occasionally. He was, uh he spoke a little English, mostly Yiddish--uh, obviously. Uh, and, uh, my grandmother died when I was a--two years old, so, of course, I didn' ; t know her. But I was never very close to that c or grandfather. And my mother CRANE: --do you speak Yiddish? KAPLAN: Do I? No. My parents did not speak Yiddish, even though their brothers and sisters, uh, did. Uh, well, at least my father' ; s brother and sister spoke Yiddish. Uh, my mother' ; s--my mother' ; s parents came from Romania. And, uh--uh, but she was born here, aft after they arrived. She had five--five siblings. And that was a--I mean, nominally Orthodox. Uh, but I don' ; t think my maternal grandfather went to the synagogue very often. Does that cover what you asked? CRANE: Um-hm. What was Judaism in your family like, growing up with your parents? KAPLAN: Well, I went to what was called Hebrew school. I mean, it was typical Hebrew school, and, uh, an hour, uh, in the afternoon after regular school, where--did--mostly r read from the Siddur. Didn' ; t learn much Hebrew language. But that was the way it was done then. And then I had a bar mitzvah, at the usual time. And, uh, after that I never went to the synagogue, unless I was visiting an aunt or somebody who is going to the synagogue and we joined them. But my--my parents did not go to the synagogue. And, uh, my mother kept strictly kosher in the home. That was the main manifestation of Judaism. CRANE: And holidays? Did you observe the holidays? KAPLAN: Well, I' ; d say we didn' ; t observe the holidays. In fact, on the High Holy Days, my father would go to school and teach, even though the high school was, uh, probably seventy-five, eighty percent Jewish and the classes were very small. They didn' ; t call of school but, uh--And, uh, as I recall, sometimes I would go to high school during the High Holy Days, also. It varied. So you could see, I was not very observant. CRANE: What did your parents teach you about Judaism? And how what you learned from them impact--impacted your life. KAPLAN: I don' ; t think, uh, I ever discussed Judaism with my parents. I don' ; t think it ever came up. Except occasionally you' ; d talk about anti-Semitism. Uh, but, uh, as I said, si since they weren' ; t very observant, uh, uh, there was no--uh, no, there was--there were no expectations. Uh, never--never came up, that I can recall. CRANE: What--what did you all discuss about anti-Semitism? KAPLAN: Well, there were incidents. My mother described a couple of, uh, incidents where he--uh, she was harassed, growing up. Uh, she grew up in Jersey City, New Jersey. And, uh, that made an impression on her. I think that that was always in the back of her mind. Uh, and then, uh, of course, uh, when I was in high school, I mentioned the possibility that I might want to go in to engineering or science. And, of course, always came up that it was hard for Jews to get a job in, uh--in the major--uh, for instance, DuPont, which was a big company that hired chemists, uh, didn' ; t hire Jews, or very few. And, uh, let' ; s see. What were the other examples? Well, applying to college. I mean, I ex the only, uh, experiences I ever had--you didn' ; t ask me--the only experience I ever had was in apply-applying to, uh--to college. ' ; Cause I applied to Columbia University and I had a top grade-point average but I wasn' ; t accepted. And I learned that they had a quota system. They only took so many Jews from the Bronx and so many from--(Crane laughs) --you know, they didn' ; t want to be inundated. That was always the fear, in some of the top universities. Of course, that--you know, that' ; s totally changed now. CRANE: Uh, that' ; s uh interesting--uh, what is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual, growing up? KAPLAN: Did you say ritual? CRANE: Um-hm. Yes. KAPLAN: Well, I didn' ; t grow up with any rituals, except, you know, I--I knew that we ate strictly kosher food. What other rituals? CRANE: Or what' ; s your fondest memory, growing up--Jewish memory, growing up? KAPLAN: Fancy that you should ask me that, because I' ; d never thought of it, as to whether I had any Jewish memories. You know, it was accepted. All m my family was entirely Jewish--(Ward coughs) -- and, uh, I didn' ; t know very many non-Jews, either in school or anyplace. Uh CRANE: --I guess growing up New York makes it a little bit different, because it' ; s more common there to be Jewish than KAPLAN: --yes. Well, as an example, I went to a high school which was about 80 percent Jewish. Now at that time, the Bronx--the population o' ; the Bronx was about 50 percent Jewish-- F1: --uh KAPLAN: --more than any other borough. I mean, New York City was about a third Jewish, at that time. But, uh--And the neighborhood we lived in was almost entirely Jewish. So, uh, that' ; s--you know, you grew up in apartment houses and, uh, the apar-partment residents were almost all Jewish. Only the superintendent, or the super, as we called him, wasn' ; t Jewish. So I--I don' ; t have any other, uh, strictly Jewish memories, until I went away from home. CRANE: Okay. Where did you attend undergraduate school? And what did you study? KAPLAN: Well, I went, for a year, to City College-at City College of New York, uh, which at that time had zero tuition. Maybe it still does. I don' ; t know much about the present City College. You know, the C the College of the City of New York, as they called it at that time, had Brooklyn College, Queens College, Hunter College, and City College--City College. And--and an interesting place. But then I decided that I wanted to go out of town. And I transferred to, uh, Syracuse University, for three years. CRANE: And what did you study while you were there? KAPLAN: I majored in chemistry. CRANE: That' ; s quite a challenge. What involvement, if any, did you have in Jewish organizations, while you were in college? Were you in a Jewish fraternity or--? KAPLAN: No, uh, no Jewish fraternity, although they were there. There were three, uh--two or three. Uh, did I go to services? There were Jewish services occasionally, at a building--I don' ; t think I ever went to--to Jewish services or had any connection--My roommates and I had--about three different roommates, while I was there. They were Jewish. As a matter of fact, the university had a habit, when they--when they, uh, reserved rooms in a--in a, uh, residence hall, dormitory, they would, uh, attempt to pair Jews together. You know, there were two students in a--in a room. And although I never heard it, uh, officially--but they did assign Jewish students together. But I don' ; t recall any other Jewish involvement, at all. CRANE: It' ; s interesting. Because New York--you know, you grew up in such a very Jewish presence there. KAPLAN: Yeah. CRANE: And the university you picked also had a very strong Jewish presence. And so, uh, perhaps it' ; s--it' ; s more challenging to think of something that' ; s uniquely Jewish, because you were sorta surrounded by that. KAPLAN: Well, that' ; s true. I mean, maybe you' ; ll ask me that question. But I didn' ; t really show much curiosity, until I lived in a place where there were very few Jews-- CRANE: --and we will get there-- KAPLAN: --which was when I was--That' ; s when I was in the Air Force. Yeah. CRANE: Uh, describe any involvement you had, when you were in college, in non-Jewish organizations. What was your university experience like, besides studying a lot to--(clears her throat)--do well in chemistry? KAPLAN: Oh, let' ; s see. I was a member of a few clubs, was a member o' ; the French Club and, uh--Let' ; s see. There was another club. I went out for track and field. That' ; s not a club. But, you know, I don' ; t re remember. CRANE: That' ; s okay. KAPLAN: I think I was a member of one or two clubs. ' ; Cause I knew I needed to have a couple extracurricular activities, when I was applying--I was applying, uh, for a graduate student or, later, m switched to medical school. But, uh, yeah, I went out--uh, I did some track. CRANE: What was your experience like? I heard, uh, little glimpses that there might have been some political aspirations, when you were in college, this KAPLAN: --well, no. I went out and campaigned for Henry Wallace CRANE: --ah!-- KAPLAN: --joined a group, which went to a few places. Do you remember Henry Wallace? CRANE: No, I don' ; t. KAPLAN: He was a third-party candidate in 1948, left-wing. That' ; s when Truman beat Nixon. But, uh, nobody expected Ni Truman to do very well and this third party developed, of people who di didn' ; t think that Truman was, uh, liberal enough. So I worked with them, for a year. CRANE: S- so the third party was more liberal than ? KAPLAN: --than Truman' ; s p yeah, than the Democratic Party. Yes. I don' ; t even know if the party had a name. Maybe it was the Progressive Party or--But, uh--Yeah, uh, uh, Henry Wallace. He was an interesting person. CRANE: How well did he do? KAPLAN: Didn' ; t do as well. At first they thought he was going to do very well. And, you know, Henry Wallace had been vice president, for one term, until Roosevelt changed vice presidents. And then he became Secretary of Agriculture. And he was very well known. But, uh, he ended up not getting more than a f- few percent--uh, small percentage o' ; the vote. CRANE: What--what do you feel was the most significant part of your college experience? KAPLAN: Mm. That' ; s a good question. I would say making friendships. I met a number of peo small number. But, uh--Also, I had--I had jobs, part-time jobs, which were interesting. CRANE: What did you do? KAPLAN: I don' ; t' ; know how much they impressed me. But, uh CRANE: --what did you do? KAPLAN: I worked in the kitchen and dining--dormitory dining area, serving food, maybe cleaning up in the back too. And I worked as a--an assistant to the man who--to the--in the laboratory, where they set up experiments for general chemistry courses. And I would assist in, uh--in setting up the equipment. CRANE: Hm. I happen to be personally aware that you are, although retired now, a medical doctor who specialized in allergies and immunology. KAPLAN: Yes. CRANE: However, I' ; m not totally clear where you went to medical school and where you did your internship and residency or, for that matter, how you decided on your area of specialty. So for the record, where did you go to medical school? KAPLAN: You know, you didn' ; t ask me why I chose medicine. CRANE: I did, just then-- KAPLAN: --why-- CRANE: --why you d KAPLAN: --why-- CRANE: Oh! Why did you? KAPLAN: --why. Because I started out in chemistry. CRANE: Oh. Okay. And, uh, I had a professor, in a basic chemistry course, who said, " ; Oh, you' ; re such a good student. But why do you want to be a chemist?" ; He said, " ; Chemists" ; --you know--" ; don' ; t make much money. Here I am. I' ; m an instructor." ; He was in the department. And he' ; s only make a small salary. Professors were not very well paid, back then. He said--he said, " ; Why don' ; t you go to medical school?" ; Well, I--that was in the back of my mind. Because I still thought--I didn' ; t know if I wanted to do that. And I was majoring in chemistry and I thought it would be interesting to--uh, to go on in chemistry. And as a matter of fact, I did--I--I started in graduate school, at Purdue, to work for a master' ; s in chemistry. But in the meantime, my medical school acceptance came in, late. So I switched at that point, which made my mother happy, of course-- CRANE: --I' ; ll bet!-- KAPLAN: --maybe my--(laughs)--father too. CRANE: So where did you go to medical school? KAPLAN: Uh, it was called State University of New York Downstate Medical Center, in Brooklyn. That was the first year it was called that. It was taken over. The--the medical school was taken over by the state of New York. It had been Long Island College of Medicine, a private medical school, uh. An -and the state took over that medical school and also the Syracuse Medical School. And, uh, that became--Syracuse became Upstate and the Brooklyn medical school became Downstate. CRANE: And you were there for four years? KAPLAN: Four years, yes. CRANE: And then you did residency and internships where? KAPLAN: Well, I started my internship at, uh--it was called Long Island College Hospital, which was part o' ; the s medical school system. That was a internship for a year. And then I started a residency in pediatrics, at, uh, a hospital called, uh, Brooklyn Jewish Hospital, which no longer exists. And about halfway through, I was, uh--uh, I had to apply for a commission. There was a doctor draft, at that time. This was between Korea and Vietnam. And there was no dra the, uh, draft had been discontinued for everybody else, uh, except for doctors and dentists, because there was a shortage. So the law said that doctors could be drafted. But to avoid being drafted as a private, you applied for a commission--which is what I did and got the commission, and was in the Air Force for two years. CRANE: And when you say you applied for a commission, does tha you--you go in as a captain or--? Uh, I mean, you go in as KAPLAN: --I went in as a, uh, first lieutenant. CRANE: First lieut KAPLAN: --and then, after a while, they changed the law. The doctors all became captains. So I became a captain. CRANE: In the Air Force. KAPLAN: In the Air Force, yes. CRANE: And where were you stationed? KAPLAN: Greenville, South Carolina. CRANE: Hm! Uh, tell me about your experience in Greenville, South Carolina, in the military. KAPLAN: I enjoyed it. I liked the military. I even considered staying in longer. Changed my mind. Uh, I had asked to be assigned to pediatric duty. Because, uh, at that time, some o' ; the Air Force hospitals took care of children or other dependents. There were--and I guess they--some--military hospitals still do. But that wasn' ; t a military hospital. It was just an airbase that had a medical unit. So I went in expecting to do pediatrics and, when I got there, they said, " ; Oh, we don' ; t do pediatrics anymore. We send our children to town. But we do obstetrics and gynecology." ; And, uh, the--they happened to need a, uh--an additional obstetrician. So they asked me would I like, uh, to do obstetrics, especially since I could take care o' ; the babies in the nursery, as a pediatrician. So I said, yeah, that was better duty than working in the--uh, what they called the dispensary, you know, seeing all the airme-airmen as they came in with minor problems. So I--I did obstetrics, for almost the entire two years that I was in. Delivered a lot of babies. CRANE: When did you decide to become a, uh, allergist? KAPLAN: Allergist. Well, I considered staying i- in obstetrics. But then I ch decided to continue in pediatrics. And I went back to, uh, additional pediatric residency, in order to meet the requirements. And in my last year of pediatrics, I, uh, talked to a, uh, allergy specialist. And I ha I did my last year of, uh, pediatric residency in Syracuse, went back to Syracuse. And, uh, I got interested in allergy through this particular practice, especially. And, uh, I decided that I would take an extra year, uh, in allergy, so that I could do pediatrics with a subspecialty in allergy. By the time I finished allergy training, I found that, uh, it was easier to do allergy as a s as an allergist rather than as a pediatrician with allergy. So I did that. I looked for a position in allergy. And that' ; s how I go came here. CRANE: Describe how or if your Jewishness impacted the time you spent in the service. KAPLAN: Yeah. CRANE: You were no longer around all the Jewish people that you had been in New York. KAPLAN: Yeah. You you' ; re right. It impacted--uh, Greenville had a small Jewish population. And there were two synagogues, Reform and Conservative. And, uh, I started going to the Reform synagogue and met some people. And the other impact was that--uh, that I met my future wife while I was in the military. She was a nurse at the hospital where I was doing my where CRANE: --in South Carolina. KAPLAN: In Greenville, South Carolina. And, uh--and we got married, uh, shortly after--well, just within a week or so after, uh, I completed my duty. And, uh--and she had decided to convert to Judaism, which she did through a rabbi--a Conservative rabbi in--in Greenville. So we were married by that rabbi. CRANE: Okay. So before we get too much into your adult and your professional life or your move to Kentucky, is there anything unique we should know about your family background, your childhood years, or the time you spent in college or medical school or the military, that you haven' ; t already shared, that you would like to? KAPLAN: Well, there must be. CRANE: You can always just-- KAPLAN: --I mean, there were a lot of little (laughs)--you know, I--I can remember little stories here and there. But as far as an important, uh, influence CRANE: --the stories are always good. KAPLAN: Well, there are little stories like how I became a Yankee fan and, uh--and, uh--Let' ; s see. Well, medical school had--you know, there were always interesting occurrences. W CRANE: --how did you become a Yankee fan, first? KAPLAN: Well, the rabbi at the Hebrew school where I was attending was able to get a bunch o' ; tickets for the Giant game, the New York Giants. Uh, or the New York Giants were--in New York then. Now they' ; re in San Francisco. So I--I went along with a lot of my fellow students. And I sat next to one who--and I kn- knew very little about baseball. I think I was eight years old or nine years old. I was sitting next to this student friend who kept telling me how much he hates the Giants. See, uh, we were watching the Giant game. The Giants had Mel Ott and other top players. He said, " ; I hate the Giants. I love the Yankees." ; So I went home and decided, " ; I' ; m going to be a Yankee fan too." ; So from then on, I became interested in baseball and have followed the Yankees ever since CRANE: --good for you! KAPLAN: --loyal fan. CRANE: All right. When did you move to Kentucky? KAPLAN: Nineteen fifty-nine. CRANE: And what brought you here? KAPLAN: Well, when I was in my, uh--uh, I had a, uh, allergy fellowship in Washington, DC. And, uh, as I was there, I decided to look around, see where I could go into practice. I didn' ; t necessarily, uh, want to stay in New York. In fact, I had the feeling I' ; d like to leave New York--New York City. So I--uh, I looked at, uh, certain ads, uh, doctors who wanted an associate. And, uh, then I went to a--a convention, an allergy convention. I think it was in Chicago. And, uh, I got in touch--well, before I got there, I got in touch with two--I think three physicians who were looking for an associate, including Lexington. I talked to all of them. I decided I' ; d like to see what the practice in Lexington was like. And I--I came here, flew here, first without my wife, jus just me. An and, uh, then later--well, I think I decided that that was a good position for me, here in Lexington. And then later, my wife and I flew, uh, here. And, uh, we confirmed that we' ; d like to live here. My wife was happy about it. ' ; Cause she was from South Carolina. She thought, " ; Kentucky, well, that' ; s, uh--that' ; s like being back in the South." ; CRANE: Definitely not New York. KAPLAN: (laughs) So, uh--Yeah, I was considering a practice in Connecticut, Stamford, Connecticut, which is not far from New Yor--And, uh--and so I' ; ve been here ever since. I joined a practice. I don' ; t know if you ever knew Maurice Kaufmann. That was before you saw me in practice. CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: Uh, his son is still active in the Jewish Community. CRANE: I remember him. Okay. So you were born in New York. You went to college and medical school in New York. KAPLAN: College CRANE: --New York KAPLAN: --well, New York state. CRANE: R KAPLAN: --I went to college at Syracuse. Yeah. CRANE: Okay. New York and Kentucky are very different, including the fact that, unlike Kentucky, New York has a very significant Jewish presence. So what were your considerations in moving here, if any? Were you concerned about what it was gonna be like? Or was your experience in South Carolina enough to make you feel comfortable leaving the big c the big city an ? KAPLAN: --oh, I looked into it. Because, uh, as I said, I became more interested in Judaism in South Carolina. And then, getting married, my wife being a converted Jew, it was imp--uh--portant for me--" ; I' ; d better find out about how to continue interest in Judai " ; So I did look into it. Uh, I mean, like I' ; m sure, when I was here, I, uh, asked about, uh, synagogues here in Lexington and Jewish population and so on. And it was satisfactory. CRANE: What kind of adjustments did you have to make, from living in New York to living in Kentucky? KAPLAN: Well, I really don' ; t recall adjustments. It was easier living here. I liked it from the beginning. You know, it' ; s, uh--was easy to get around, you know. There were no four to five-hour rides on the subway, here in Lexington. So, uh--but, as far as adjustments, uh, of course, I--I had, uh, to adjust being away from family. But I don' ; t recall that it bothered me very much. It bothered my mother a whole lot. In fact, she couldn' ; t understand it. When she told a friend or relative that her son had moved to Kentucky, they were astounded. Kentucky, no one knew about how especially a Jew would move to Kentucky. CRANE: Tell me about your medical practice. What was the structure like? You started with, uh, Dr. Kaufmann? KAPLAN: Yes. CRANE: And was it just the two of you? KAPLAN: No. He was in practice with Lloyd Mayer. Did you know Lloyd Mayer? Uh, they had been practicing together. And the three of us were practicing for two or three years. And then things happened and, uh, Lloyd Mayer left the practice and set up his own. He continued in solo practice, uh--No, no. H he was in solo practice for a year--then he took o uh, for a number of years. Then he took on an associate. Uh, Dr. Kaufmann and I were practicing, just the two of us, for about ten years. And then we took on an associate--and then later another associate in the practice. Uh, you know, we' ; ve had additional MDs in the practice ever since. CRANE: I suspect that being a specialist means that many of the patients you saw were referrals from other physicians in the community. KAPLAN: Yeah, not only from Lexington, all over eastern and central Kentucky. Excuse me. CRANE: Since you were new to the community, how did you go about establishing relationships with other physicians in the area? KAPLAN: Well, through my senior partner. I mean, I--matter of fa I made an effort to visit a number of the physicians who were good referral sources. And, uh, you know, the number of MDs in Lexington was much smaller, at that time. And, uh, I got to know almost--almost all o' ; them, at meetings and, uh, you know, just working together with patients. CRANE: Explain the positive or negative effects that being Jewish had on your practice, if any. KAPLAN: I don' ; t think it had any effect. I m no one ever questioned--If there were doctors who didn' ; t like Jews, they wouldn' ; t sent patients to us. But they would CRANE: --did the Jewish--other Jewish doctors in Lexington send you more patients? KAPLAN: Uh, you know, there were so few. There was Dr. Moosnick. Uh, did you know him--Rosie Moosnick' ; s father? CRANE: Uh, Franklin. KAPLAN: Franklin, yeah. He would refer a few patients. And, uh CRANE: --uh, he was lots of people' ; s doctors, back then. KAPLAN: Oh! He was very much admired in the community, not just the--not just the, uh, Lexington community--uh, I mean, not just the Jewish community but the whole community. There was--there were a few--very few Jewish doctors, at the time. Of course, the University of Kentucky Medical Center was just getting started. And then, of course, the number of Jewish doctors increased--as it has to the present day--but--and those in practice too. There was one doctor--Rankin. Forget his first name. He was a Jewish doctor, an internist. And, uh, he became--uh, he was pretty well known in the community. He became, uh, president of the, uh, Fayette County--Now it' ; s--It was called Fayette County--now it' ; s the Lexington Medical S Society. And I remember his wife saying to me--(Ward coughs)--" ; Look at what" ; --so-and-so--" ; Rankin has accomplished. A Jew has become president o' ; the Medical Society." ; I mean, she thought was phenomenal. Maybe--Well, I don' ; t think that, uh, even by that time--That wou -would have been fifteen years or so after I arrived, twenty years. Uh, I don' ; t think there was very much anti-Semitism in the medical community. And, of course, it was becoming much less in every community, you know, and, uh, part of Lexing-Lexington society. But he became president o' ; the Medical Society. Franklin became president o' ; the Medical Society two years later. And, uh CRANE: --were they the only other Jewish physicians that were around then? KAPLAN: Thinking. No, there--there couldn' ; t have been more than four or five. Of course, there were the three of us-- CRANE: --uh-- KAPLAN: --Kaufmann, Mayer, and Kaplan, all Jews, in allergy practice. And, uh, not too long after that, Ken Gerson went into practice. Did you know Ken Gerson? He was a--he was a Jewish allergist. CRANE: I don' ; t remember that name. KAPLAN: Uh, so there were the four of us. Uh, now--now there are no Jewish allergists in Lexington, just--You know, allergy is a small practice. You know, there may be twelve allergist, all together, in--in Lexington. And, uh--(clears his throat)--I don' ; t think an of ' ; em are Jewish now. CRANE: What was it like having, uh, Jewish partners in your practice? Was that more--I mean, more special or? KAPLAN: --no, I don' ; t think it affected the practice at all. And, uh, in fact, it wasn' ; t too many years after that we started taking on--we--we had Dr. Goiser, who only stayed with us a few years. And then we had--Larry Hemmings came, a few years after that, and then, after that, Jack Hill and Neven Gardner, who re both retired very recently, last summer. None of ' ; em were Jewish. And I don' ; t think, uh, it made any difference whether my associates were Jewish or not. CRANE: Describe the importance of connecting to some part of the Jewish community, when you arrived in Lexington. You mentioned just a little bit about your wife, at the time, uh, converting and you wanting to stay connected, because that was sort of the right thing to do, to KAPLAN: --oh, right away, uh, I mean, we looked up--we joined Temple Adath Israel right way, upon arrival. And, uh, I became active, and my wife too, not too many--uh, qui shortly after that. I also joined B' ; nai B' ; rith, which was more active then, and became president within a couple years. CRANE: What was B' ; nai B' ; rith like then? KAPLAN: Well, we had about 120 men or 30 men, at--at the peak. And we met--It wasn' ; t, uh, extremely active. I mean, we met three or four times during the year, with evening meetings. And we had a couple other activities. We had--uh, some of us would--were a volunteer group that would go to the, uh, VA hospital, the one on Leestown Pike, to, uh--to talk to patients. There were a few other activities. And, uh, I think my wife joined Hadassah, uh, at that time. CRANE: I know you were also the president at the temple, at one time. KAPLAN: Yeah. I became president relatively young. CRANE: And what was that like? KAPLAN: Uh, it was, uh--I enjoyed it, for the most part. I mean, there were--there were some problems, especially when I first became president. I don' ; t know if it' ; s something that should be mentioned publicly. CRANE: You c KAPLAN: --do you remember Rabbi Leffler? CRANE: I sure do. You could discretely share whatever you want. KAPLAN: Do you remember when there was, uh, an uprising against Rabbi Leffler? Do you go that far back? (laughs) I mean, there was a group--the--the temple board decided to dismiss him. But then there was a g organized group from the congregation that decided they wanted to keep him. So it went to the congregational meeting. And a decision was made to keep Rabbi Leffler. And that was the year that I became president. WARD: Uh-- KAPLAN: Some o' ; the major figures in the temple either resigned or cut their dues in protest. But, uh, it really didn' ; t affe--uh, uh, well, you are not a member of Adath Israel, I don' ; t think, so you probably don' ; t know too much about it. But, uh, Rabbi Leffler stayed a few more years. Then he was again asked to leave. And this--this time he-- CRANE: --he was there twenty years?-- KAPLAN: --didn' ; t protest. He was there twenty years, yes. CRANE: What are the concerns, if you remember, uh, that some o' ; the congregants had that were opposed to keeping him? KAPLAN: Well, the ones that were, uh, spoken about most were the--they said he didn' ; t get along with children very well, in religious school he was not--and it' ; s qu it' ; s true. He was not the type--the warm type personality that new how to deal with children. And, uh, then there were other beefs. Yeah. I liked him, although he was not the warm type rabbi that, uh, we' ; ve had since then. CRANE: How many rabbis has the temple had, since you' ; ve been there? Rabbi Leffler was there when you came? KAPLAN: No. There were two before that. CRANE: Uh KAPLAN: --there was one who was there for about a year, after I arrived. And he went to St. Louis. And there was a Rabbi Rothman, who c stayed for two or three years--and then Leffler, for twenty years. And since then, you probably know who came after that, Adland and--you know, an CRANE: --oh, that' ; s right. And after--there was John Adland and after him was Marc Kline? KAPLAN: Marc Kline, yes. CRANE: And then KAPLAN: --well, Rabbi Roberts was a, uh, interim rabbi-- CRANE: --oh, that' ; s right-- KAPLAN: --and now our current--our current rabbi. CRANE: According to the Temple Adath Israel Web site--it has you down that you are still an active member of the temple. So what is it that motivates you to continue to be active at the temple? KAPLAN: Well, I have a profound interest in Judaism, and, uh, both from the standpoint of faith in its teachings and, uh, a desire to associate--be with other Jews. That' ; s, uh, my organization. CRANE: What was Judaism in your home like as an adult, living in Lexington? KAPLAN: (sniffs) Well, we, uh--most of it, I think, was connected with Temple Adath Israel. Y you know, because whatever it' ; s, uh, doing, we would attend. And so this was always on the calendar. Uh, I mean, we, uh--let me see. My wife did not keep kosher. We, of course, raised children at the temple. So we participated in their religious school activities. Uh, we celebrated the holidays. We lighted candles on Friday night. CRANE: That' ; s pretty good. Uh--and your--your present wife, she' ; s also a, uh, active member of the temple. KAPLAN: Yeah, she is, and Hadassah. Are you a member of Hadassah? Because that' ; s her major interest. CRANE: Tell us about that. Tell me a little bit about her involvement in Hadassah. KAPLAN: Well, she, uh--I think she joined right away, after we got married. She had not been active--her--her first husband was not Jewish. She was born Jewish, of course, but her first husband was not. And she did no--although she maintained an interest in--in Judaism, all the years, she was not active in anything. Uh, but, after we got married, uh, she learned about the temple and about Hadassah. And she would attend meetings. And then, uh, she' ; s a member of the board. And then she was asked to be president. And she hadn' ; t been that--member that long. But, uh, she was asked to become president, which she did, for two years. That was about six, eight years ago. But she' ; s continue to be active since. CRANE: I find it amazing that Lexington, Kentucky, is such a small little place, compared to the United States as a whole, and there are so many leaders--Hadassah leaders that come out of Lexington, at a national level. I mean, there' ; s been, uh, Judy Saxe and, uh, Marilyn Moosnick, and-- KAPLAN: --Gail Cohen-- CRANE: --Gail Cohen. And, you know, I' ; ve read lots about Odette. I mean, there' ; s lots of women who have very strong Jewish connection, uh, and go, uh KAPLAN: --it is--it is unusual. I think they have 300, 310 members in Lexington--uh, considering the size, is, uh, amazing. Uh, the Jewish population in Lexington is about 2,000, maybe 3,000. ' ; Cause they really don' ; t know. A lot of those are hidden. Uh, and Louisville is 10,000. Louisville doesn' ; t even have an active Hadassah chapter now. CRANE: What do you attribute this to? KAPLAN: Well, leadership, uh, people like Judy Saxe, who, uh, became active many years ago. And, uh--yeah, what--what you' ; ve said is recognized by Hadassah people--leadership, all over. On a national--on the national level, they know that a Lexing--Lexington is very active in Hadassah, at a proportion to the population. And I think it has to do with those who--who lead and, you know, set the tone. CRANE: What supports and challenges were there, uh, that you had to face, in raising your children in Lexington? KAPLAN: Excuse me. What challenges and what else? CRANE: Uh, what supports were there to raise Jewish children in Lexington? What were some o' ; the supports that were around? Obviously, the temple. And what were some o' ; the challenges that you all had to deal with? KAPLAN: Well, of course, the supports had to do with the temple, and then the, uh--uh, the community center, Federation, uh, with the sh--the, uh--you know, the children' ; s day camp, during the summer. Uh, the supports--and you' ; re talking about Jewish supports. CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: I' ; d say it was the temple, more than any, uh WARD: Uh KAPLAN: --they went to religious school. CRANE: What was your relationship with, uh, the Federation? (Ward sniffs) KAPLAN: We uh CRANE: --were you all involved? KAPLAN: --I was on--I was on the board about six years. Yeah, I might say it was the--the summer camps. My son went to Camp Young Judea, which is a subsidiary of, uh--(clears his throat)--of Hadassah, although I think it' ; s become independent now. And that' ; s where he really developed a closeness to Judaism. He went to a--after he, uh--after he was too old for--for, uh, Young Judea, he went to a camp for older kids, I think sophomores in high school, in--in New York--it' ; s called--upper New York state. It' ; s called Tel Yehuda--where he had so--So, uh, he really developed a--a closeness to, uh, Judaism that way. CRANE: Were you involved in other organizations or groups, uh, within the greater Lexington community? Were you active in? KAPLAN: --non-Jewish groups? CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: I really haven' ; t been--other than medical. I mean, uh, Medical Society and the allergy groups. And I was on the voluntary faculty of--for UK, for many years. Means I donate time to, uh, help teach medical students and residents, you know, like an afternoon a week. CRANE: How did you get involved in that? KAPLAN: Oh, there was, uh, always an open invitation for specialists who wished to assist in the, uh, teaching program to do so. I don' ; t think very many do. But, uh, it was no problem to, uh--Oh, uh, uh, I must say, though, that it was easy for me, perhaps, because I joined the pediatric allergy teaching program, which was led by Ken Gerson, who I mentioned before. He was on the part-time faculty, for a while. Then he, uh, had his own practice. But later, I switched to a different--to an adult allergy clinic--uh, Dr. Bang--uh, for a number of years. So, uh, uh--I mean, this was a community effort, t- to do that. CRANE: Were there other Jewish doctors that you, uh, met, through your volunteer work at the university-- KAPLAN: --uh CRANE: --as the Medical Center grew? KAPLAN: I don' ; t think that that led to it. Uh, uh, in the early years, I knew all of the faculty--pediatric faculty doctors. I don' ; t think any of ' ; em were Jewish--up to the present time. But, uh, uh, that--that was it. I just--you know, by just being there, uh, I did meet some other Jewish doctors. Well, there were Jewish dentists. I don' ; t know if I met them, though, through the medical school--you know, Stan Saxe and Milt Gellin. I think there were Jewish dentists on the faculty. CRANE: How did your relationship to Judaism and your practices differ from that of your parents? KAPLAN: Uh, well, my--uh, uh, I' ; ve been much closer to organized Judaism than my parents ever were. I--uh, as explained before, my parents had no connection to--to any synagogue or Jewish organization, that, uh, I can recall. CRANE: And how is KAPLAN: --I mean, the main connection was with family, who--your Jewish family. So, uh, tha I think tha that was it-- CRANE: --and how is yours different from that of your children' ; s? KAPLAN: Well, you know, uh, two of my three children I mentioned David before and then Lisa--And, uh, you know, so Lis Lisa is Jacob' ; s mother. CRANE: I know tha KAPLAN: --and, uh, she' ; s been--you know, has sent the children to--to, uh, Jewish school--think they still call it Hebrew school--in, uh--in Louisville. So, uh--so two of my three children have been active in Judaism. My other daughter has not shown much interest. CRANE: And where' ; s she? KAPLAN: She lives in Louisville also. CRANE: So all three of your children. KAPLAN: My chil yeah, they all live in Louisville, or close, uh, the vicinity. CRANE: Uh--That' ; s not too far away. KAPLAN: No. I' ; m fortunate that way. CRANE: How has your Judaism and your practice changed, over the years? Or has it? KAPLAN: How has? Wha? Excuse me. CRANE: How has, uh, your Judaism, your personal spiritual beliefs and practices, changed over the years, from when you grew up to moving to South Carolina to moving to Lexington to? You know, I know that your--your family were raised Orthodox, you' ; re members of a Reform temple. But I don' ; t really, uh, know whether you feel more connected or less connected than you did. I' ; m just curious as to how you feel it has changed, over time. KAPLAN: My connection to Judaism? CRANE: Um-hm. KAPLAN: Well, I thought I, uh, brought that out, the fact that, uh, until--until I went into the military, my Judaism was just a given. I mean, it was--I accepted it. Didn' ; t perturb me that I was Jewish. I can' ; t say that I had any special feelings one way or another. It was just an ac an acceptance, part of my life--uh, but not in an active fashion. Uh, as an adult, especially since moving to Lexington, it' ; s been a much more important part of my life. And, uh, I mean, uh, J Judaism, to me, is a, uh--has a spiritual a aspect which answers many of my questions, thoughts about life in general--and then an interest in the actual, uh, history and- and, uh--Or, uh, uh, you know, I read books about Judaism. Certainly closer than I ever was before. It' ; s important to me. CRANE: What has been the role of Israel and Zionism, in your activities and of your identity as a Jew? KAPLAN: Well, you know, I became aware of the Holocaust after World War II. Trying to think. ' ; Cause my grandparents came over here a long time before World War II but I recall them--uh, at least my mother' ; s parents, uncles, and aunts stating that, uh, they--they never get close touch with family members. Back then, you didn' ; t make long distance phone calls. I guess you could have written letters. But they didn' ; t keep in very close touch. And then, uh, when the war was over, they realized that there was, uh, no contact at all. And they would just pass such remarks as " ; Well, they' ; re all gone," ; you know, because of the Holocaust. But it was never discussed--uh, probably not--uh, maybe not in presence, ' ; cause I was younger then. Uh, my thought--Of course, I' ; ve always been a strong, uh, r supporter of Israel, from the very beginning and, uh--and believed in the Zionist concept, at a time when not all Jews believed that. And, of course, since--since my marriage to Odette, I' ; ve been even closer. Because she has family in Israel. We' ; ve been there several times. CRANE: Did her family leave Morocco and move to Israel? KAPLAN: Uh, her brother and sister did. And it' ; s mainly their--their children--Well, her brother didn' ; t move there till much more recently. But her sister, uh, went to Israel even before--Well, Odette go WARD: --uh-- KAPLAN: --arranged for her to go there, at the same time that she left for the US. By that time, Jews--and by the--uh--see. She left in the early sixties. F1: Uh KAPLAN: --in the fifties and sixties, uh, Jews in Morocco were deciding that they had to leave, even though they weren' ; t treated as badly in Morocco, perhaps, as other, uh, Near Eastern and North African, uh, countries. But still, i- it was not very pleasant for them, especially after Israel became a state. And they started leaving. And, uh, my wife was concerned that her sister would not fare very well without her. And, uh, they were--they were raised by their grandfather, actually. And she arranged for her--for her sister to go to Israel, even though she was just a young teenager. Uh, and, of course, the s sister has twelve--(laughter)--uh, " ; twelve" ; --uh, has five children. And it' ; s their children who, we' ; ve--you know, we' ; ve gone to their weddings. And, of course, through them we know other Jews living in Israel. So, of cour--that m means that we' ; re a lot closer than most Jewish families, because of family in Israel. CRANE: Did your family come from--uh, come over here dur after the Bolshevik Revolution? When did they leave Russia, or Lithuania? KAPLAN: No, they were, uh, much older than that. My father left Russia in 1906, when he was seven years old. And, uh--and all the siblings, some came before him, some with him. Uh, my mother' ; s parents came here shortly before she was born, in 1904. So they came, you know, maybe 1902. So that was long-- CRANE: --and they all settled in KAPLAN: --and they all and so that was long before--uh, before--well, somewhat before the Bolshev--uh, Revolution, yeah, fifteen years before. CRANE: Hm. Looking back, what, if anything, would you change about your relationship with Judaism? KAPLAN: Well, this would be divided into two areas. Since I' ; ve been in Lexington and since--since I was married and before, I wouldn' ; t change anything. I--I don' ; t think I have any regrets about my life or absence of connection with Judaism before I was in the military, about age twenty-five to twenty sev uh, twenty-seven to twenty-nine. Uh, yeah, uh, it just isn' ; t something I have any regrets or--or thoughts about. It' ; s just part of life. CRANE: Are there any stories that you would like to share, that are important to you? Your grandson' ; s sitting over there. And I personally love stories and think it would be really nice, if there was something you could share, for the record--a great tale. KAPLAN: Doesn' ; t have to be about Judaism then, does it? CRANE: No. Just a special story. KAPLAN: Well, when I was, uh, uh--shortly after moving to Lexington, I was back in New York. And I called a friend in Manhattan. Uh, and he wasn' ; t home. But his son--uh, I think was six or seven years old at the time--answered the phone. And I don' ; t know where his mother was. But I said, " ; Well, I' ; ll talk to you." ; I said, " ; Just tell your--just tell your father that, uh--that Martin from Kentucky called." ; He says, " ; Kentucky? Do you know Daniel Boone?" ; You know, there was a program, a TV--a weekly TV show, at that time, about Daniel Boone. Fact, there was a famous actor--is it Fess Parker?--who played Daniel Boone. And it was really a program that the children like to watch--you know, recurring program, week to week. So, of course, the children knew Daniel Boone, in Kentucky. So I got a kick outta that. CRANE: Okay. Is there anything else you would like to share, about your practice, funny stories, serious stories? KAPLAN: Mm. There must be stories. Let me see. About Judaism, about? CRANE: --a special vacation. KAPLAN: Well, you know, uh, always enjoyed travel. And, uh, travel to Israel has always been delightful to me. You know, the first-- WARD: --uh-- KAPLAN: --the first trip I made to Israel, uh, that was before I was married to Odette. I was still married to Nickie. And, uh, we had heard that the rabbi who married us, in Greenville, had retired--I think he went somewhere else first but then he retired and moved to Israel. So we decided to look him up. It was Nicky and me an- and our son, David. Uh, David was about seventeen. The other--our other two children, Lisa and Janet, I guess, were off on their own by that time. So we looked him up and we went to a--a place called French--French Village, I think it' ; s called--on the outskirts of Jerusalem. And we visited. And it was delightful to return--to see the rabbi who had married us. And he was in Israel. And he had this-- WARD: --uh-- KAPLAN: --this k apartment. And we could overlook the Arab part of Jerusalem from--uh, from his apartment. And he said that they had a--they had a woman who would help them in the house, and very faithful, but she had to leave, a week or two before that, ' ; cause she was getting a tough time from her family because she was working for Jews. Now this was not--I' ; m sure that this is not, uh, typical of all--because many East Jerusalemites, I' ; m sure, work in West Jerusalem. But--so it wasn' ; t that unusual. But it struck us that this was--You know, this was way back, 1988. And there was already such feeling between Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem--probably still--uh, probably always was, from the very beginning. But I recall that incident. And, uh, I remember meeting a cousin--second cousin in Israel, oh, no more than five years ago, who I had never known. Another cousin of mine had found out about her. And, uh, it seems that that--that, uh, woman' ; s grandmother and my grandfa--we--father were brothers and sisters. And she was a Holocaust survivor and came to Israel way back, I think--She came here about 1950, to Israel. And the family never knew about her. I mean, she just--there was no way of her communicating, I guess. Uh, and, uh, I' ; ve been back a couple times since and have met her. She lives outside of Haifa. CRANE: She' ; s your second cousin. WARD: Uh KAPLAN: --she--she' ; s a little--a few years younger than me--well, about ten years younger. Let' ; s see. Ho how would you call it? If her--if our grandparents were brothers and sisters, that makes us at least some kinda cousin. I' ; ve always called it second cousin. CRANE: The way I understand it, uh, you had the same grandparents, you' ; re first cousins. If you had the same great grandparents, you' ; re second cousins. So if they were siblings, then you are second cousins, ' ; cause you share the same great-grandparents. KAPLAN: Well, they wer we didn' ; t share grandparents or great-grandparents but there was a mother-- WARD: --uh KAPLAN: --brother-sister connection there. Uh, well, I' ; ll call it second cousin. (laughter) CRANE: Uh KAPLAN: --w we always enjoy--we enjoy seeing them. But the amazing thing to me is that they' ; ve lived there for sixty years and, uh, we never knew about them. Uh, apparently, uh, you know, when they came to Israel--could they have made a connection or, uh ? Well, there was no connection. They had--uh, you know, my grandparents had been here for fifty years, so--you know, sight unseen. Uh, they just never made any connection after that. That was always interesting to me. Uh, we, uh, enjoy seeing ' ; em, for that reason. CRANE: Do you know, uh, your great great grandparents' ; names--your great? KAPLAN: --great-great-grandparents. CRANE: Your--your great-grandparents, uh. KAPLAN: No. I don' ; t know if I ever--I ever knew them. You know, my--my grandfa--my father never talked about his, uh, experiences in Russia. Well, he probably didn' ; t remember much. He was only six or seven when he came here. And I never questioned him. I--I wondered why I didn' ; t try to get more information. But a first cousin of mine looked into it. You know, now people are always going to Ancestry.com. You can find out things. I don' ; t know if you can find out about Lithuania. But, uh, uh, we have the name of the ship that they came over from Hamburg. Uh, uh, I guess they traveled to Hamburg, Germany, and then took a ship. We know the name o' ; the ship. We know the name of the, uh--of the village that they lived in in Russia, with some history of that village--well, a couple pages history, of everything that went on in that shtetl and even before it became a shtetl. So, uh--But I haven' ; t looked further. You know, a lot of people are on--go to Ancestry.com now. WARD: You need to share that with your grandson. KAPLAN: Yeah, what about it, Jacob? (Jacob laughs) We' ; ll look it up. WARD: We' ; ll check it out one day. CRANE: Well KAPLAN: --I' ; ll t I' ; ll let you kn I' ; ll show you what I have. You know, it never occurred to me to, uh--to share that. CRANE: I have so enjoyed this. And thank you, so much, for the opportunity to listen to your stories and share your experiences with us. KAPLAN: Uh, it' ; s been a good experience for me too, t--well, thanks for, uh--for choosing me. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh059_jk021_kaplan_ohm.xml 2016oh059_jk021_kaplan_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh059_jk021_kaplan_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Martin Kaplan, May 12, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Martin Kaplan was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1928 and raised in the Bronx, New York City. Both of his parents, Samuel (born in 1899) and Clara Kaplan worked as school teachers. His father was a Russian immigrant from a village named Olshan near Vilna, Lithuania. Both of Dr. Kaplan's parents were raised in Orthodox Jewish homes but became more liberal with their Judaism in their own homes. Dr. Kaplan recalls lighting Shabbat candles, having a bar mitzvah, and keeping kosher at home, but seldom attended synagogue. He also discusses systemic anti-Semitism.
After graduating from DeWitt Clinton High School, Dr. Kaplan attended the City College of New York for one year. He then transferred to Syracuse University, his father's alma mater. Dr. Kaplan went to medical school at State University of New York Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, New York. He joined the United States Air Force between the Korean and Vietnam wars because of the likelihood he would be drafted as a doctor. He was stationed at Greenville, South Carolina where he would later meet his first wife Nicki Nixon. His wife converted to Judaism through the rabbi at the conservative synagogue in Greenville.
Dr. Kaplan moved to Lexington, Kentucky in 1959 where he joined an allergy practice with Dr. Maurice Kaufmann and Dr. Lloyd Mayer. He discusses the medical community that existed in Lexington at this time and the Jewish doctors that he could recall. Upon moving to Lexington, Dr. Kaplan joined Temple Adath Israel, the only reform temple in the city. He also joined B'nai Brith. He became president of the congregation at one point when there was an attempted "uprising" against the Rabbi of the time--Rabbi Leffler. He goes on to name the different rabbis of the congregation over his years of membership. He discusses his current wife's membership in the Hadassah organization. Dr. Kaplan explains his relationship with Judaism in comparison to his parents' and his children's. He describes his support of Zionism and his family's connection to the Holocaust growing up.
Identifier
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2016oh059_jk021
Subject
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Lexington (Ky.)
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington
Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington
Jews--Identity.
Worship (Judaism)
Religion
University of Kentucky. Medical Center
Physicians--Kentucky
Military service, Voluntary--United States.
United States. Army Air Forces
Medical education
Universities and colleges.
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video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/2882cf6efe5cc6882dadc1b51d4b3c43.jpeg
557c02a76bc4eb212d8823f0afc4c1be
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arwen Donahue
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Harold Baker
Interview Keyword
Family histories.
Jewish children
Anti-Semitism
Antisemitism
Discrimination.
Childhood
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2016oh057_jk020 Interview with Harold Baker, May 3, 2016 2016oh057_jk020 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Small business--Ownership Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington World War, 1939-1945 Religion Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. Family histories. Jewish children Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Childhood Harold Baker Arwen Donahue 1:|24(12)|39(3)|69(11)|93(6)|115(5)|136(13)|152(4)|160(13)|172(10)|185(8)|205(1)|217(4)|226(5)|236(8)|249(10)|269(3)|280(2)|295(16)|311(7)|327(7)|344(5)|359(4)|371(4)|381(9)|392(7)|406(5)|421(4)|438(11)|448(4)|464(4)|474(3)|491(13)|516(3)|541(2)|555(6)|572(12)|593(5)|609(13)|620(6)|636(4)|646(8)|658(14)|674(10)|689(9)|703(9)|714(2)|728(3)|740(5)|767(3)|795(3)|806(10)|822(4)|833(7)|850(4)|865(15)|872(7)|883(8)|902(7)|913(15)|927(15)|949(10)|959(12)|970(12)|993(12)|1009(14)|1031(12)|1041(10)|1066(9)|1091(3) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253328083" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family history It's, uh, May 3rd, 2016, and my name is Arwen Donahue. I'm part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Fund for Historical Excellence Oral History Project, and I'm very pleased to welcome Harold Baker today to, uh, be interviewed for our oral history project. Thank you so much for coming. Baker's father and mother immigrated from Poland and Lithuania, respectively, in the early 1900s and settled with family in the Lexington area. His father sold his business in Winchester and established Baker Metal in an old hemp factory in 1921. Although he did not have much experience with the scrap metal business as a child, Baker attended the College of Commerce at the University of Kentucky in preparation to take over the family business. He signed up with the United States Army in 1943, and eventually took over the business after the war in 1945. Baker's Scrap Metal ; Building businesses ; Business obstacles ; Centralia (Ill.) ; Chain immigration ; Childhood ; Colleges ; Commerce ; Cyclical business ; Danville (Ky.) ; East European immigrants ; Education ; Evelyn Baker ; Family businesses ; Gloria Baker ; History ; Ida Wides ; Jake Green ; Joe Green ; Military service ; Morris Baker ; Scrap metal ; Small businesses ; Stores ; Sylvia Green ; United States Army ; Universities ; University of Kentucky ; Winchester (Ky.) Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. 38.055, -84.484 17 Location of Baker's scrap metal business on the corner of W. 7th St and N. Limestone St., Lexington, Kentucky. 368 United States military service during World War II Tell me about your experience in the army. Did you, did you enlist? Before taking over the family business, Baker enlisted in the United States Army in 1943 and was stationed at the U.S. military base in Natal, Brazil. He returned to Kansas City, Missouri in 1945 and eventually married his childhood sweetheart, Anita Roos. When his father fell ill, he returned home to Lexington and took over the family business. Anita Roos ; Baker Iron & ; amp Metal ; Courting ; Family businesses ; History ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish marriage ; Kansas City (Mo.) ; Marriage ; Military bases ; Military service ; Music ; Natal (Brazil) ; New York (N.Y.) ; Scrap metal ; United States Army ; World War II Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; World War, 1939-1945--Veterans. 5.779, 35.200 17 Location of Natal, Brazil. http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Framework/ch12.htmLink An overview of the establishment of the United States Armed Forces in Brazil in 1940 from the United States Center of Military History. 736 Jewish life in Lexington in the 1920s and 1930s How important was Judaism in your family growing up, and how did you, how did you practice Judaism? Although his parents grew up Orthodox, he and his family began attending services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Baker attended Sunday school at Temple Adath Israel. Baker eventually became a member of the Temple Adath Israel congregation with his wife, and the congregation became a centerpiece of their social life. He also talks about his extracurricular activities while attending University High and later Henry Clay High School, which included a role on the yearbook, newspaper, and student council. He was not as active in extracurricular activities while at the University of Kentucky, which he attributes to not being part of a fraternity. Anita Roos ; Bar mitzvahs ; Civic clubs ; Civic involvement ; Henry Clay High School (Lexington) ; High schools ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Judaism ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Prejudice ; Reform Judaism ; Religious life ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; School clubs and organizations ; Sunday school Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; University of Kentucky ; Worship (Judaism) 38.040, -84.507 17 Location of Taylor Education Building, formerly University High School. http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt7sf7664q86_1100_1 Image of the education buildings of the old University High School, 1930s. Image from the Kentucky Digital Library. 1187 Running the scrap metal business in the 1950s and 1960s Well, tell me more about the business, then. Baker was originally supposed to take over his family's gasoline distribution business, but when his father died in 1945 they sold it and Baker took over the scrap metal business instead. Baker describes the cyclical nature of the scrap metal industry, which would boom around every four or five years. The business grew after IBM (International Business Machines) opened in Lexington in 1956. Baker also discusses the importance of building connections with other scrap business owners and of attending industry conventions in addressing business obstacles. Although nearly 90% of scrap metal businesses were Jewish-owned, Judaism did not play a large role in the industry or at conventions. Baker Iron & ; amp Metal ; Blue family ; Building businesses ; Charlie Schwartz ; Cohen family ; Competitors ; Conventions ; Cyclical business ; Dave Bollatin ; Family businesses ; Gasoline business ; Gordon family ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Jay Bollatin ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish networks ; Jewish population ; Junk business ; Klempner family ; Mansbach family ; Marvin Bing ; Munich family ; Rod Ratliff ; Scrap metal ; Small businesses ; Stan Rose ; Steel mills Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 2037 The role of Judaism growing up in 1920s and 1930s Lexington Um, can you give me a sense of what your Jud--what your Jewishness meant to you? Judaism was an influential part of Baker's life, as a cultural, social, and religious force. He attended Temple Adath Israel on Friday nights where his wife sang in the choir. Although he maintained a Jewish identity while attending the University of Kentucky, the Jewish fraternity, Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) had not been formed yet. Baker also remembers an instance of anti-Semitism as a child when someone called him a name and they got into a fight, but otherwise he describes Lexington as a relatively accepting town. A. B. Grossman's Store ; Baker family ; Culture ; Fraternity ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Prejudice ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Ruth Gordon Baker ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Kentucky ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Holidays. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Worship (Judaism) 38.042, -84.494 17 Location of A. B. Grossman's store on Water Street, Lexington, Kentucky. 2245 Learning about the Holocaust in the 1930s Well I'm, I'm, I'm wondering what it was like for you being in college, like, I assume you were at UK [University of Kentucky] when World War II started in 1939, and how much did you know about what was going on in Europe, the Holocaust, and how did, how did that translate into Jewish life in Lexington? When World War II broke out in 1939, Baker learned about the persecution of the European Jewish community from his father, who read the Jewish Daily Forward and spoke with family members in Europe. Most English newspapers did not carry information regarding the Holocaust and most school courses did not cover it. Before there was an established Synagogue or Temple to practice at, the Jewish community would practice at local Jewish stores, including A. B. Grossman's store located on Water Street. A. B. Grossman ; Cultural acceptance ; German Jews ; Holocaust ; International relations ; Jewish Daily Forward ; Jewish persecution ; Jewish practices ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Morris Baker ; News ; Newspapers ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Services ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; World War II Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) ; Holocaust. ; Religion ; World War, 1939-1945 ; Worship (Judaism) 38.043, -84.494 17 Water Street, Lexington, Kentucky. Location of A. B. Grossman's store. 2626 Selling the family scrap metal business in 2003 I just came across a quote from The Forward that I wanted to read to you and see what you have, have to say about it. Um, " ; Scrap metal is one of the oldest Jewish businesses in America. As it goes the way of globalization, a particularly Jewish, if mostly unnoticed way of life disappears with it." ; Do you have any reaction or thoughts about that? Several scrap metal businesses merged in the 1990s due to economic pressures, and Baker talks about the decision to sell his business to the Cohens in 2003. He also describes his role as a temple leader in the '50s and as temple president from 1961 to 1963, including the challenge of expanding the building due to a growing congregation. Baker Iron & ; amp Metal ; Building businesses ; Business obstacles ; Consolidation ; Family businesses ; Globalization ; Jewish businesses ; Mergers ; Scrap metal Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://forward.com/news/1258/history-e2-80-99s-scrap-heap-families-sell-off-yards-a/ Article from Forward, " ; History’s Scrap Heap: Families Sell Off Yards, and Legacy." ; 2908 Leadership positions with Temple Adath Israel in the 1950s and 1960s What are your children's names, and when they were--when were they born? Baker raised his children with a strong Jewish identity, even though he believes that their practice differs from his. Baker describes his involvement with Temple Adath Israel which included administrative roles, fundraising, and contributing to Temple expansion and the hiring and firing of rabbis. He was also the president of the board from 1961 to 1963. The major challenge that he faced as president was the decision to move the Temple on Tabor Road, but they eventually sold that property and expanded the current building. Many families were members of both the Temple and Ohavay Zion Synagogue, which Baker believes contributed to a healthy relationship between both congregations. Baker also discusses his involvement with B'nai Brith. B'nai Brith ; Bar mitzvahs ; Ben Baker ; Bobby Baker ; Child-rearing ; Cohen family ; Generational changes ; Gloria Baker ; Jewish education ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Michael Baker ; Modern life ; News ; Population growth ; Religious life ; Religious practices ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Temple expansion Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Worship (Judaism) 17 3502 Changing landscape of Lexington's Jewish identity You mentioned your grandchildren. Would you tell me their names? Baker discusses the changes in the Jewish community in Lexington that he has witnessed, including the declining membership at Temple Adath Israel in recent years. He highlights the role that Israel has had in the formation of Jewish identity in the Lexington Jewish community, especially before Israeli independence. Finally, he discusses his role as a temple leader in the expansion of Temple Adath Israel. B'nai Brith ; Child-rearing ; Civic clubs ; Civic involvement ; Family values ; Generational changes ; Generations ; History ; Holidays ; International relations ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Jewish tradition ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Membership ; Moving ; News ; Sunday school ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Temple Expansion ; Zionism Israel. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 37.997, -84.480 17 Location of the Lexington chapter of B'nai Brith at 1050 Chinoe Rd, Ste 112, Lexington, Kentucky. http://www.bnaibrith.org/about-us.html History of B'nai Brith International. interview Baker's father and mother immigrated from Poland and Lithuania, respectively, in the early 1900s and settled with family in the Lexington area. His father established Baker Metal in an old hemp factory in 1921. Baker attended the College of Commerce at the University of Kentucky in preparation to take over the family business. He signed up with the United States Army in 1943, and eventually took over the business after the war in 1945. Baker talks about the decision to sell his business to the Cohens in 2003. Although his parents grew up Orthodox, he and his family began attending services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Baker attended Sunday school at Temple Adath Israel. Baker eventually became a member of the Temple Adath Israel congregation with his wife, and the congregation became a centerpiece of their social life. Baker raised his children with a strong Jewish identity, even though he believes that their practice differs from his. Baker describes his involvement with Temple Adath Israel which included administrative roles, fundraising, and contributing to Temple expansion and the hiring and firing of rabbis. Baker discusses the changes in the Jewish community in Lexington that he has witnessed, including the declining membership at Temple Adath Israel in recent years. When World War II broke out in 1939, Baker learned about the persecution of the European Jewish community from his father, who read the Jewish Daily Forward and spoke with family members in Europe. Most English newspapers did not carry information regarding the Holocaust and most school courses did not cover it. DONAHUE: It' ; s, uh, May 3rd, 2016, and my name is Arwen Donahue. I' ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Fund for Historical Excellence Oral History Project, and I' ; m very pleased to welcome Harold Baker today to, uh, be interviewed for our oral history project. Thank you so much for coming. BAKER: Thank you. DONAHUE: What is your full name? BAKER: Harold Joseph Baker. DONAHUE: And when--what is your date of birth? BAKER: April 23rd, 1921. DONAHUE: Were you born--where were you born? BAKER: In Lexington, Good Samaritan Hospital. DONAHUE: Okay. Can you tell me something about your family background? How did your family come to the Kentucky--to the Bluegrass Region? BAKER: Well, to go back originally, my father came from Poland, which was then part of Russia, and uh, he came to this country in nineteen--uh, let' ; s see, he was sixteen. He came in 1906, and uh, my mother' ; s family came from, also what was part of Russia, Lithuania, and they came to this country in 1900. DONAHUE: Do you know the names of the towns where they had come from? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: And do you know what brought them to Lexington? BAKER: I think, uh, that they had either relatives or friends who lived in this area. My father originally came to Danville, Kentucky, and they settled with his sister over there. And my mother originally lived in Centralia, Illinois, and they had family here, so they also moved to Lexington. DONAHUE: Did your family change its name when they came to the United States? BAKER: I have no idea what the original name was. DONAHUE: Okay-- BAKER: I just don' ; t know it. DONAHUE: Yeah, okay. And what were your--what was your father' ; s name, and your mother' ; s name? BAKER: Morris, and Ida. DONAHUE: Okay. And what was your mother' ; s maiden name? BAKER: Wides, W-i-d-e-s. DONAHUE: Okay. And, um, do you have siblings? BAKER: I had two sisters, uh, both of who have died. DONAHUE: What were their names? BAKER: Gloria and Evelyn. DONAHUE: Were they--what how--what were their ages relative to you? BAKER: Both were six--I was the middle child, and the others were six-and-a-half years older, and six-and-a-half years younger. DONAHUE: Okay. I understand that the Baker family started recycling in 1921? BAKER: It was called junk business then. DONAHUE: Junk business. BAKER: But, uh, uh, my dad, uh, recently had a store in Winchester, I believe, and then, uh, gave that up and went in with his brother-in-the law, the scrap business in Lexington, they bought a--uh, an old hemp factory, which was at Seventh and Limestone. And they started the operation there. DONAHUE: Was the business in Winchester, was that the--related to the Jake--to the Joe Green family? BAKER: Not that I know of. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Now where' ; s Joe Green from? DONAHUE: Well, uh, Sylvia Green, his daughter-in-law, do you know Sylvia Green? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: She--she, um, immigrated after the war--after World War II to Kentucky, and she married Jake Green, and they settled in Winchester, and his family had a dry goods store in Winchester--Jewish family who was involved with a--uh, synagogue for a long time. I just was curious-- BAKER: Oh. DONAHUE: --if they were connected with that business. BAKER: Not that I know of. DONAHUE: Okay. Um, so the junk business, and it was in an old hemp factory, uh, did you work with that business as a child? Did you grow up kind of helping out there? BAKER: Uh, just listening to my mother and father talk, I wasn' ; t involved with the business in any way at that time, uh. DONAHUE: What memories do you have of it? What was--what was the atmosphere like there? BAKER: Well, the, um, business had its ups and downs, and I knew when we were going through depressed periods, but, uh, besides that, I really had very little contact as a youngster. DONAHUE: What were your own hopes and dreams as a child? BAKER: Well, I think the family just assumed, since I was the male, they just assumed that I would go into the business, so they never had any indication of going in any other direction. I did graduate from the university, and then went into the business, although I graduated from university and went into the Army, and then into the business. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And, so you always knew when you were growing up that you would somebody go into the business-- BAKER: Yes, I think so. It was just assumed, yes. DONAHUE: And when you were studying at--at the university, what--what university did you attend? BAKER: I attended University of Kentucky, and I was in the commerce college. DONAHUE: Um-hm. So you were preparing to take over the family business? BAKER: Well I don' ; t know if commerce college-- DONAHUE: --(laughs)-- BAKER: --was much preparation, but I was headed in that direction, yeah. DONAHUE: Okay. Tell me about your experience in the Army, did you--did you enlist? BAKER: Well I--huh, I came through the university, and in the, um, late thirties, and early forties, well I graduated in ' ; 42, and, uh, I realized that we were going to war. I know the country didn' ; t realize it, but, it was just because of our history in ' ; 17, ' ; 18, and our closeness to England, that I felt that we were going to war. So, um, I took advanced military, and so I came out as a lieutenant, and, uh, uh, I eventually came out of the Army as a captain. I' ; d been a captain for quite a while. DONAHUE: Mm. Where did you serve? BAKER: Uh, I served in Brazil. We had a national Army airline all over the world, and we had a base in Brazil, Natal, Brazil, and uh, I went down there and--uh, let' ; s see, February of ' ; 43 and came home in April of ' ; 45. I was in charge of a cargo warehouse. Uh, Natal was a jumping-off place for Africa. At that time, this airline that the United States had flew from Florida to Brazil to Africa, and then to the Far East, and uh, so Natal was just one stopping place along the way, although it was a really large base. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And, did you know at that time what you were going to do after you-- BAKER: I assumed I was going into the, uh, business. DONAHUE: Yeah. Can you describe returning to Lexington and getting into the business? BAKER: Um, let' ; s see, I have to think about this now. I got out of the Army in April. Well, I--I had leave time, so it was stretched out until April. I actually got out of the Army in January the 26th of ' ; 43. I mean, ' ; 45. And, uh, I married a week later. DONAHUE: Wow. (laughs) BAKER: Uh, I married Anita Roos, and uh, we went on our honeymoon, and uh, I called home one day, and, " ; Mother said you better come home, dad' ; s sick." ; And so we drove back home, and, uh, I went into the business, since my dad died, I think, and, uh, about ten days after I got there, March 13th. DONAHUE: How--how did you meet your wife? Had you been courting her while you were in the Army-- BAKER: Oh, huh, yeah. We, uh--I knew her from Sunday school. At that time, she was thirteen ; I was fifteen. And we started dating on and off until we got married. DONAHUE: How do you spell her last name? Her maiden name? BAKER: R-o-o-s, Roos. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Anita was--had a beautiful voice. DONAHUE: You met in her in Sunday school, and you were dating on and off, and was--was that, um--so when you went off to the Army, had you made a commitment to one another? BAKER: No, no. Neither way. DONAHUE: Hm. BAKER: When I came home--oh, came back to this country, I was stationed in, uh--Kansas City, and I had a position in the Army that I had the right to go down to personnel and write my own orders, and I could fly any place I wanted to in the country. So, uh, for three months, every month, I flew to New York. She was living in New York in that time, and, uh, on the third trip, we became engaged. DONAHUE: What was she doing in New York? BAKER: Uh, she was taking music lessons, um, voice lessons, and then I think she had a small job but it wasn' ; t much. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Was she--did she have a career as a musician? BAKER: Um, after she came back to Lexington, she sang, uh, but, uh, primarily as a--as a wife and mother. DONAHUE: How important was Judaism in your family growing up, and how did you--how did you practice Judaism? BAKER: Well, both mother and dad came from Orthodox backgrounds, and, uh, as they lived in Lexington, they became less Orthodox, and at--as I was growing up, they belonged to both the Reform and the temple--temple and the Orthodox synagogue. And, uh, Anita' ; s background was the temple, so, uh, after we married, it wasn' ; t hard for us to start going to the temple. And actually, the synagogue at that time did their services in Hebrew. And so, it was a question of during the service that you went to, what page you were on, because you couldn' ; t--I couldn' ; t follow the Hebrew, so we were both, uh, comfortable in the temple. DONAHUE: So, do you know anything about the story of why your parents moved away from Orthodox Judaism and towards Reform Judaism? BAKER: Uh, I can' ; t figure it out. They--that was the way they were. Uh, I think they were more comfortable with less Orthodoxy. DONAHUE: So you would go--what was your weekly routine as a--as a young person? Would you go to both--to services at both the temple and the synagogue? BAKER: Went to services as a youngster at the synagogue. Uh, as I said, I went to the temple when I was about fourteen, and went to Sunday school at temple. But, uh, as far as the High Holy Days services was concerned, I went to the synagogue. DONAHUE: Did you have a bar mitzvah? BAKER: I had a bar mitzvah, and that was really the turning point because mother and dad want--wanted me to be a member of the synagogue, a part of the synagogue family, until I was fourteen, I did. They wanted a bar mitzvah. DONAHUE: Because at the--at the temple, there--they were not doing bar mitzvahs at the time. BAKER: They were not doing bar mitzvahs, that' ; s correct. DONAHUE: And were you happy to make that change to go to the temple? BAKER: I went with the tide. Yes, I was very well satisfied. DONAHUE: Was it--did you enjoy going to--to the temple for services? What did it mean to you? BAKER: Well, after Anita and I married, um, she sang in the choir, and, um--so we usually went on Friday night. She went--and if I didn' ; t, but I usually went too, and, uh, temple life was very important to me. To us. DONAHUE: What about friendships? Were most of your friends through-- BAKER: Most friends were Jews, that' ; s right. I had some gentile friends, as Anita had some gentile friends. But the majority of our social life was Jewish. DONAHUE: Where did you attend school? BAKER: I went to, um--Ashland, then to, uh, University High, or what they called it at the time, um, well--senior high was called University High, uh, parked--it was, I can' ; t recall the name of it, at that time. And, um--what was the question? DONAHUE: Where you went to school, did you--did I see something about Henry Clay High School? Did you go to Henry Clay as well-- BAKER: I went to Henry Clay, yes, then I went to the University of Kentucky. DONAHUE: Yeah. Yeah, I approached that question a little backwards, because we talked about the University of Kentucky before we talked about your, uh, earlier education. BAKER: Well, uh, I did very well at Henry Clay. I was very active in the school activities. And, uh, I enjoyed Henry Clay. I was more involved in high school than I was in college. I just went to classes in college. I didn' ; t have any activities. DONAHUE: What activities were you involved in? BAKER: At Henry Clay? Oh, I was on the, uh--annual, that we put out. I was on the High Times¸ which was the high school paper. Uh, I was in the, uh--um, in the, uh, what' ; s called, student council. I just had a lot of activities in high school. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Why do you think you were more involved in high school than you were when you were in college? BAKER: That, I can' ; t answer. I don' ; t know. It was just easier doing it in high school. I wasn' ; t a member of a fraternity, and I think, uh, if you were a member of a fraternity, you fell into certain positions, or activities, and that didn' ; t happen with me. DONAHUE: What was it like as a Jewish boy attending public schools in Lexington? BAKER: Well I don' ; t know that Jewish boys, made any difference. I think I was just the average student. DONAHUE: You didn' ; t experience any anti-Semitism? BAKER: I don' ; t think so. Not--at that time, there was a certain feeling that some people were anti-Semitic. And the family used to talk about this person, or that person being anti-Semitic. But I didn' ; t run into any of that. DONAHUE: Did you have any kind of sense that you were in a--that you were different than the--than the majority, and did that matter to you, if so? BAKER: I don' ; t think it mattered. DONAHUE: Well, tell me more about the business, then. Go--go-- BAKER: --The scrap business-- DONAHUE: --getting back--getting back to your return from World War II in 1945, and you discovered that your father had this--------(??)? BAKER: Well, as a youngster--well I first I have to tell you that we were both in the gasoline business and scrap business. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: My father, uh, his brother-in-law had started a, uh, wholesale gasoline business. They were distributors for city service. So, I think it was always my intention, or my father' ; s intention, that when I went into the business, I' ; d go into the gasoline business rather than the scrap business. So, uh, when he died, we sold the gasoline business, and, uh, I was to run the scrap business, see what I could do with it. DONAHUE: What--what made you decide to sell the gasoline business? BAKER: Well I--my mother' ; s brothers came into town, and they were looking out for her interest. And here I was, a youngster who had no business experience, except for over the summer vacation period, so, uh, they decided that it' ; d be best for her that they sell the gasoline business and give me a crack at the scrap business, that they did. DONAHUE: So, you--your, was--do you think that the family' ; s expectation was that you' ; d have a chance after you returned from the war to spend time with your father learning the ropes? BAKER: No, I think it was my father' ; s intention that I, uh, run the gasoline business, that we' ; d grow that business, and, uh, so, it didn' ; t work out that way. DONAHUE: And was--just--was the economy better for the scrap business at that point, or was-- BAKER: Well, the scrap business depended upon the steel mills to buy the scrap. And so, uh, the business cycle in the United States at that time was about every four years, there' ; d be demand for scrap. Well, there was always demand for scrap, but at times, it would drop down, the prices would drop very low, so there was a cycle there, and so, uh, I--I worked--I figured it out, and I worked it out, and it worked out fine. DONAHUE: Did you enjoy the work? BAKER: I did. Uh, I really enjoyed the business. I did well, and I enjoyed it. DONAHUE: Can you describe to me what--what it was like, what--what your day-to-day routine was, where you would get the metal? BAKER: Well, until 1956, there was very little industry in this area, and so we bought from the farmers, we bought from the garages. Uh, they would bring it in to us, and, uh, uh--we would accumulate it, and ship out carloads, or railroad carloads. After 1956, and IBM [International Business Machines Corporation] came to town, and Square D came in train, and the whole area developed small industrial plants, and any industrial plant that had their product metal, uh, would have scrap, and so our business grew. DONAHUE: And did you form relationships with--with the people who would--who would bring metal? Were there--were there certain clients who you had who you would see regularly, or was it different people every day? BAKER: Well, as far as after 1956, the industrial plants were important customers because they were reducing the tonnages. But, uh, the, um--regular truckers, some made a living out of it, that had routes, where they would go out in certain parts of state and buy and then bring them to us. Uh others, uh, just did occasionally. But we had certain, uh, customers that, uh, came in quite often. DONAHUE: Now I' ; ve--I read, I think, that one person estimated that maybe as many as ninety percent of the owners of scrap metal businesses in the United States were Jewish. BAKER: They probably were, a big percentage. DONAHUE: What--was that, uh, meaningful to you in any way, that it was a-- BAKER: --It wasn' ; t meaningful, it, uh--I think that, um, when Jews came to this country, uh, they were learning English, and, uh, they were looking for businesses to get into, or ways to make a living, and it was easy to start a scrap business, or what was called a junk business at that time. So, many Jews were in the business, yes. DONAHUE: I read that, uh, scrap metal, um, owner--business owner from Alabama would--said that, uh, he would look forward every year--his family would look forward every year to conventions, scrap mental conventions, because it was like a-- BAKER: --Which is true-- DONAHUE: --big family reunion. (laughs) BAKER: Well, for me, it was a--a learning experience. Here, I started out the business without any background in the business. And when I went to the conventions, and they would have, uh, ways of--of studying, and, uh, I learned so much. And then, just by sitting down with other dealers, and learning and hearing their experiences. And many of them were going through the same thing I was, because at the time that I went into the business, all over the country, young men were coming home to their family businesses, and coming to conventions and meetings, learning, just as I was learning. So we had, uh, seminars, and uh, we had workshops, and we learned from each other. DONAHUE: Were there social, uh, events there as well at the--at the conventions, where people would-- BAKER: I think there was, um, social, yes. DONAHUE: And did you--did you make use of those national networks, in your business in any way? BAKER: Oh, I think it was very helpful, very helpful. It was a learning experience after--for me, and I think for many other young men throughout the country. DONAHUE: Can you recall any--any stories, or particular experiences, or people that you met that--that have stayed with you? BAKER: No, I can' ; t recall any stories. Uh, if you want me to tell you a little bit about the scrap business, I can. DONAHUE: Absolutely, yeah. BAKER: Um, we were buying scrap metal, both iron, copper, aluminum, and non-ferrous metals, and uh, the consumers were the steel mills and the refineries who were providing copper and aluminum, and, um, so it was a question of--of finding sources, or finding outlets for your material, and, um--and they would buy as they needed it. They were making new steel, making--refining copper, the brasses, and, uh--it was quite a large business. DONAHUE: Would representatives from those refineries go to the conventions as well? BAKER: Oh, sure. DONAHUE: And did they--were those businesses, did they tend to be Jewish-owned as well? BAKER: Um, some were. Some were not. Of the mills, none of--I don' ; t recall any of the mills being Je--yes, it was a mill, in, uh--near Ashland, Colton (??) was Jewish-owned. But, uh, they were not--most of them were not involved with Judaism. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Did you work in any way with, um, other businesses within the state, other scrap metal businesses? Did you coordinate in any way? BAKER: Well, we were the largest in the Lexington area. And so, we would buy from the smaller towns, smaller dealers, halfway to Louisville, halfway to Cincinnati, halfway to Ashland, and to the south, we went quite a ways. And, uh, so, we would have our regular customers, as they had their regular customers. DONAHUE: Can you recall the--the names of some of those businesses that you worked with? BAKER: Well, there was Mansbach family in Ashland, Kentucky. And, uh, the Klempner family in Louisville, Blue (??) family in Louisville. Um, uh, the Cohen family in Middletown, Ohio. DONAHUE: And the Cohen family eventually bought your business. BAKER: You' ; re right, you' ; re correct. DONAHUE: And what about the other businesses in Lexington, the Gordon family? BAKER: The Gordon family, and the Munichs (??) had yards. And then, Ian Norn Wides started up a yard. DONAHUE: Was there any sense of, uh--of competition among you or-- BAKER: I don' ; t think the competition was, uh, harsh, or bitter. It was just--it was competition. There was another operation in Lexington called Frankfort Scrap that Rod Ratliff (??) started. DONAHUE: And were your relationships with people in the business, um, were they friendships, as well as business relationships? BAKER: Some were. DONAHUE: And, I--I have, maybe pushing farther on this, but, was the-- BAKER: --oh yeah, push it-- DONAHUE: --was your--was your sense of, uh--of shared Jewishness at all important? Did that ever come up in conversation? BAKER: Uh, I don' ; t think so. I don' ; t think so. DONAHUE: Just--just the feeling of that you' ; re all--people doing the same kind of work? BAKER: No, just--it was just competition, DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Uh, there was no bitterness. There was no great friendship. DONAHUE: And, uh, so your--then--who were your great friends? BAKER: Uh, growing up, um, a young man by the name of Marvin Bing was my closest friend. Are you asking that, or as you asking as adults? DONAHUE: Oh, both. BAKER: Well, uh, I had a man working for me by the name of Stan Rose. We were friendly with him. Uh, Charlie Schwartz, who was at the Veterans Hospital. Um-- DONAHUE: You can say something if you want. BAKER: What' ; d you say? DONAHUE: I heard your son say something. I wondered if you wanted to put something-- BEN: Dave Bollatin (??). DONAHUE: Dave Bollatin? BAKER: Dave Bollatin, right. DONAHUE: Okay, so do you know Jay Bollatin? BAKER: Sure. DONAHUE: Okay. We' ; re--I' ; m going to be interviewing him in a few months. Uh--um, can you give me a sense of what your Jewishness meant to you? Was it-- BAKER: Oh, it was very important. Our lives revolved around the temple. DONAHUE: Was it a--would you describe it as, um, cultural, or more religious, or a mix of the two? How did--how-- BAKER: I think it was a mixture of the two. DONAHUE: Was there anything about--can you come up with any example of how you expressed or practiced your Judaism that were--that were most meaningful to you? Was it--was it holidays? Was it--any examples? BAKER: Well because Anita sang in the choir, I went to temple quite often on Friday night. And, um, the holidays were very important to us. DONAHUE: And later on in your life, did you experience any kind of anti-Semitism? I asked you about your--your experience as a child, but, uh, how about later? BAKER: I don' ; t recall any specific problem. It' ; s just that, uh, when I was growing up, and even later on, I think there was a--a feeling that there were some Christians who did not like Jews, for one reason or another. But I didn' ; t find any great anti-Semitism. DONAHUE: You didn' ; t notice--you didn' ; t experience it personally? BAKER: I didn' ; t. DONAHUE: You just were aware that there was a cultural-- BAKER: No, it was just a, uh--uh, there was some discussion about, that this person didn' ; t like Jews, or, anti-Semitic but, uh, I personally didn' ; t have any problems. DONAHUE: What about at the University of Kentucky? Did you--did you experience any-- BAKER: No. DONAHUE: --were you involved with any Jewish organizations there? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: There was a Jewish fraternity, I believe. BAKER: They started after I left. DONAHUE: I see. BAKER: They were in the--they were evolving to a fraternity. They had a local at the time, but, uh, they were just--it was coming about. Thinking about, uh, anybody being anti-Semitic, I remember, uh, when I was eleven, twelve, thirteen years old, uh, having a fight, fist fight, uh, somebody called me, uh, a name, and we had a fight. But that was the only problem I ever had. And that wasn' ; t serious. The next day, we were playing baseball. DONAHUE: (laughs). What did the person call you? BAKER: I forgot the exact name. DONAHUE: But it was some kind of slur? BAKER: Slur, that' ; s right. It wasn' ; t important ; it happened. DONAHUE: Well I' ; m--I' ; m--I' ; m wondering what it was like for you being in college, like, I assume you were at UK [University of Kentucky] when World War II started in 1939, and how much did you know about what was going on in Europe, the Holocaust, and how did that translate into Jewish life in Lexington? BAKER: Well my dad read a Jewish paper called The Forward, and so he was somewhat aware of what was going on. The English papers didn' ; t carry much, but he had relatives there, and he was very much aware, and he didn' ; t talk to the family about it, though. DONAHUE: When you went to services at the temple, do you recall talking about the plight of European Jews as a community? BAKER: Yes. And, um, men would come around asking for money. Lots of money was raised for European Jews. DONAHUE: Did you have cousins that you knew of who were still there? BAKER: I didn' ; t know--I didn' ; t know any of my relatives in Europe, no. DONAHUE: And would you have conversations--your dad would read the paper, and would your family have conversations? BAKER: Dad didn' ; t talk about it. DONAHUE: He didn' ; t. Was--were there discussions in any of your class, in a--in an academic context about what was going on politically? BAKER: I don' ; t think so. It' ; s hard to remember, but I don' ; t think so. I don' ; t think any of us realized how bad the situation was. Even Dad who was reading the Jewish paper didn' ; t realize the extent of it. DONAHUE: When did you realize the extent of it? BAKER: It' ; s hard to say. I think so much came out after the war that we didn' ; t hear about during the war. DONAHUE: Did that have any impact on you personally, and on your--on your Jewish identity, learning what had happened to the majority of Jews in Europe? BAKER: I don' ; t think so. DONAHUE: Let me just look. So your father was one of the founders of Ohavay Zion, is that right? But he didn' ; t have a sense of deep--did he maintain a membership to-- BAKER: Oh, absolutely. DONAHUE: --both the synagogue and--and the temple? BAKER: Yes, he--uh, synagogue was his--was the closest of his--of houses of prayer, but, uh, he did belong to both. DONAHUE: I' ; ve heard that members of Lexington' ; s Jewish community in the early days, um, used to gather at downtown stores for minions, for prayer. Did you--did you experience anything like that? BAKER: Well, after dad died, I went to, uh, evening services at the stores downtown, um, for a while, and, uh, I think that was a continuous situation that they--continue to have services downtown. DONAHUE: Do you recall what store--stores you would go to? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: AB Grossman' ; s store was the one that I had heard specific reference to on Water Street. BAKER: Uh, there used to be some Jewish stores on Water Street. DONAHUE: Oh, did your family--you mentioned that they kind of moved away from Orthodoxy. Did they keep kosher through your childhood? BAKER: Mother kept kosher as long as she lived. DONAHUE: And your father? BAKER: My father, uh, was not as kosher as my mother. DONAHUE: What about you and your own household? BAKER: Well no, no, no. DONAHUE: I just came across a quote from The Forward that I wanted to read to you and see what you have--have to say about it. " ; Scrap metal is one of the oldest Jewish businesses in America. As it goes the way of globalization, a particularly Jewish, if mostly unnoticed way of life disappears with it." ; Do you have any reaction or thoughts about that? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: I' ; ve read that beginning in the 1990s, that many respected, established names in the scrap metal industry began to kind of fall away as the--as the businesses consolidated and were--were bought by larger firms. BAKER: I think the businesses are still primarily Jewish. I' ; ve been away from it for quite a while, but there' ; s all Jewish names still involved. DONAHUE: What--what did the--do you recall that--that time, you were still in the business in the 1990s, was there a--um, distinct change in the atmosphere for your business? BAKER: Well, you had more consumers of scrap, it--it started out that you had your bigger consumers used a small percentage of scrap, their mix. Then later on they--built what were called electric furnaces that used one hundred percent scrap. So there was more demand for scrap. DONAHUE: More demand for scrap and--and fewer businesses, is that right? BAKER: Well, there were more businesses consuming scrap, and so the prices were better in the later years, as demand for scrap went up. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Were many of the families that you knew selling their--selling their businesses at that point, because the prices were good, and it was a time to--get out? BAKER: Uh, there was some consolidation, but, uh, I' ; ve been out of the business for quite a while, but, uh, I think the same families continue to run the businesses. DONAHUE: Tell me about your decision to sell the business to the Cohen family in 2003. BAKER: Well, uh, my oldest son did not come into the business. My second son did come into the business, and he was helping to run the business, and he ran the business, and, um, he had a medical problem and, um, uh, I just thought that, uh--that I didn' ; t want the medical problem to become worse if--the pressure of the business was bothering him. So I decided to sell. DONAHUE: Was that a--bittersweet decision for you? BAKER: Uh, of course, I--I' ; d been working in the business all my life, and so, uh, it was a change. DONAHUE: What did you do after you sold the business? BAKER: Well I was already up in my years, so, uh, I did then what I do now, read the paper, read books. DONAHUE: What subjects interest you as far as your book-reading? BAKER: I' ; m sorry? DONAHUE: What subjects do you like to read about? BAKER: Well actually, I said books, but it really mostly magazines. DONAHUE: Oh. BAKER: Periodicals. DONAHUE: Keep up with a--wide range of subjects. BAKER: Right, um-hm. DONAHUE: What are your children' ; s names, and when they were--when were they born? BAKER: Michael was born in ' ; 47. Ben, who' ; s with me, was born in ' ; 50. Gloria was born in ' ; 54, and Bobby was born in ' ; 58. DONAHUE: And how did you and your wife approach your children' ; s Jewish education? BAKER: Well, we sent them to Sunday school. DONAHUE: Was it important to you that they--that they maintained-- BAKER: Oh, absolutely. DONAHUE: --strong Jewish identity? BAKER: Sure. DONAHUE: Did you find that their practice of Judaism differed from your own in any significant way? BAKER: Well, yes, I think so, but we accepted what they wanted to do. DONAHUE: How--how did it differ? BAKER: Oh, I don' ; t think they went to services as often as we did. But they brought their children up to be Jews. DONAHUE: So all of your grandchildren have--have been raised within-- BAKER: Oh yes, absolutely. DONAHUE: --the Jewish tradition as well? BAKER: Um-hm. DONAHUE: Okay. Tell me about some of the activities that Temple Adath Israel-- BAKER: Well, I was very much involved with temple, because, as I said Anita sang, and I became involved in the administration of the temple. So, uh, I became an officer, and I was very active. DONAHUE: What were your particular--what, in particular, were you involved with? BAKER: Uh, well just the general administration of the temple, the hiring and firing of the rabbi--the hiring of the rabbis, and, uh, raising money. Building--the discussion about building a new temple, and then, decision to stay where we were, and expand that temple, that building. DONAHUE: What years were you involved, as an officer, with the temple? BAKER: Well I think, uh, in the--I was president of the temple in ' ; 61 to ' ; 63, so, uh, I was very active in the fifties. DONAHUE: And what were the--what did you see as being the greatest challenges facing the temple at that time? BAKER: Well, in the fifties, the temple was growing rapidly, and there was some discussion that we would build a new building, so, uh, we bought a piece of property on Mount Tabor road, and then decision was to sell that property and use the money, plus other monies that we raised to expand the temple structure we were in. DONAHUE: On Ashland? BAKER: On Ashland Avenue, right. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And, so the mem--the membership was expanding. What was due to, Lexmark? BAKER: Well I think originally, the temple was started by the original Jews in Lexington, the German Jews, and the synagogue was started by the, uh, Russian Jews, and, um, the synagogue services were held in Hebrew. And so, it made it difficult for the--the younger families coming in who didn' ; t speak Hebrew to participate in the synagogue services. So many of them started to join the temple, and the temple was growing rapidly. And there was some discussion that we would have to bu--build a larger temple, and we bought a piece of property on Mount Tabor Road, and then decided to tell that and use the money for the expansion of the old structure. DONAHUE: Can you describe what the relationship was, in your experience, between the synagogue and the temple? BAKER: It was always fine ; no problem. DONAHUE: Were there many families that overlapped as you did between them? BAKER: Yes, there were--families belonged to both, as we did for a long time. DONAHUE: And you--you ment--you mentioned something about not learning Hebrew yourself. Did you learn enough to do your bar mitzvah, and no more than that? BAKER: Well, uh, for a young man, until he was thirteen, he studied for the bar mitzvah. But that was just to learn to sp--read Hebrew. He didn' ; t learn to speak the language. So, uh, the synagogue for a long time had their services strictly in Hebrew. There was times they eventually had, uh, English and Hebrew, where the temple was more open to the English prayers. DONAHUE: Did your parents speak English together? Did they speak any other language in the home? BAKER: They would talk about something they didn' ; t want me to understand, they spoke in Yiddish. (laughs). DONAHUE: Okay. Well you didn' ; t learn any Yiddish? BAKER: Uh, a few words. I really, uh, did not learn the language. DONAHUE: Is there anything else that you can tell me about, uh, your experience with the temple? BAKER: Well, as you understand, the, uh--original Jews came to this land, uh--came from Orth--came from both German and Orthodox, or Russian background. The German Jews came early. Uh, they started coming here--well I think there were families here as early as the Civil War, maybe even earlier. Well, the Gratz family was even earlier. Uh, there were not enough to organize a temple until 1903. And we celebrated our hundredth anniversary in 2003. Um, the Russian Jews who came later were primarily Orthodox. But, uh, it was time, they became comfortable in the temple, with more Reform. DONAHUE: How do you feel about where the temple stands today? Do you feel that it' ; s thriving, doing well, compared with when you were its president? BAKER: Well I' ; m not that close to it any longer, but as far as I know, they' ; re doing fine, as is the synagogue. DONAHUE: And how do you feel about the Jewish community in Lexington overall, as far as how--how well it' ; s doing ; how vital it is? BAKER: Uh, I think there' ; s a lot of activity. As far as I know, they' ; re doing fine. DONAHUE: Are you involved with other Jewish organizations? BAKER: Uh, no, not today. DONAHUE: Have you been? BAKER: Yes, I was, uh, involved with, what was called B' ; nai B' ; rith, and, uh, I guess that' ; s primarily it. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What was your involvement with B' ; nai B' ; rith? BAKER: Well, uh, I used to go to all the meetings, and if they had, uh, activities, I would try to be active. DONAHUE: What kind of focus was there in--in those meetings? What--what were they trying to accomplish? BAKER: Well, I think it was, um, a question of bringing Jews together who wanted to be together, and, uh, that was primarily it. DONAHUE: Um-hm. You mentioned your grandchildren. Would you tell me their names? BAKER: Yes, um, my oldest son--son is, um--I had a loss of memory for a minute. Uh-- DONAHUE: You want to--that' ; s fine. You want to just come back to it? It' ; ll--it' ; ll--it' ; ll probably come back to you. BAKER: Dan (??), spinning room (??) Help me with the first name. BEN: Sam. BAKER: Sam, Molly, and Joshua, and Steph, and uh, Andrew were the first child--first children of the--first child. And then Ben and--or, Ben' ; s children are, uh, Greg and Roo-- BEN: No. BAKER: Uh, Greg and Aaron. And, uh, the third girl, the first girl, third child, is, uh--Max and Abby. And, uh, Abby' ; s, uh, husband' ; s name is Sam too. And their children are, uh, Henry, Clara, and Lucy. And then the seventh grandchild, or great-grandchild is, um--is there a child, Moe? BEN: No, Leo was the most recent. BAKER: Leo, Leo. Okay. DONAHUE: So how many great--great-grandchildren? BAKER: I have seven great-grandchildren. DONAHUE: Seven great-grandchildren. Uh-huh. BAKER: Thank you, Ben. BEN: You left out Bobby' ; s daughter, Anna. BAKER: Well, Bobby' ; s, uh, child is Anna. DONAHUE: Anna. Um, what--what are holidays like in your home? BAKER: Well, originally, uh, they were--it was a big occasion, but I' ; m by myself now, being----------(??) here. But it' ; s nothing like it was. DONAHUE: Would you have friends, neighbors over for--for Passover, for-- BAKER: Well, we used to have this--what was called Seder, and that was a big occasion. We still have it, but it' ; s not as important and big as it was years ago. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What supports and challenges were there to raising your own children in Lexington, as far as, um, you--I know you mentioned they were raised in the temple. Did you--was it challenging to find the resources you need to give them the Jewish education that you wanted them to have? BAKER: No, I think we were satisfied with what the temple was doing. DONAHUE: What has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your life? BAKER: Well, I think that, uh, the country of Israel was important, uh, as I was maturing, uh, they were working towards their independence, and so, they would send representatives over to raise money, and, uh, they would have meetings, and it was more important than it is today. Uh, I' ; ve been to Israel twice, and, uh, I have a connection with Israel, but, uh, it' ; s not as important as it was years ago. DONAHUE: And why--why is that? BAKER: Well I think, that they were working towards their independence. Once they got their independence, uh, they--they didn' ; t rely on American Jews as much as they had. DONAHUE: Do you think that the concern within Lexington' ; s Jewish community for what happens in Israel has diminished significantly? BAKER: You don' ; t get much discussion of it, you know. I guess there is concern, but you don' ; t hear discussion. DONAHUE: Is it something that you personally give much thought to anymore? BAKER: No, I don' ; t give it a lot of thought. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: I' ; m glad they' ; re prospering. DONAHUE: Is there anything else you' ; d like to say about how things have changed within Lexington' ; s Jewish community since you' ; ve been--in the course of your life? BAKER: Well I think, uh, our temple activities were more important in my younger years, than they are today. Um, those Jews who want to be active, and involved, are. And those who want to step back, away from it, do that too. DONAHUE: Why do you think they--those activities were more important in the past than they are today? BAKER: What was the question? DONAHUE: Why do you think that those activities were more important in the past than they are today? BAKER: Well I think going back to when Israel was trying to get its independence, there was something to work towards. So that was more important, yes. DONAHUE: So many of the activities of the temple were focused on what was happening in Israel? BAKER: At that time, I think there was a lot of focus, and there' ; s not as much today. DONAHUE: Are you talking about the period from 1948 to-- BAKER: Right. DONAHUE: --1960-something? BAKER: I' ; m saying before ' ; 48, there was more interest in their independence. I don' ; t know the--that the Jews in Lexington as--as close to Israel as they were years ago. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And do you think that that has changed the character of Lexington' ; s Jewish community? BAKER: I don' ; t know if it' ; s changed the character, but it has changed. DONAHUE: You have the sense that, um, Jewishness is less important to the community? BAKER: I can' ; t speak for others. It' ; s important to me. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Are there any other leadership roles that you' ; ve played in the Jewish community here in Lexington that we haven' ; t talked about? BAKER: Well, I guess I was an officer of the temple, worked through the roles, worked through the different offices. I was, um, a President of an organization called B' ; nai B' ; rith at one time. Uh, when you' ; re younger, you' ; re more active ; you' ; re more involved than you are when you get older. DONAHUE: So you were president of the local chapter of B' ; nai B' ; rith? BAKER: Yes, local chapter, right. DONAHUE: When was that? BAKER: Oh, that was in the fifties, sixties. I' ; m not sure when. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What--what else haven' ; t I asked you about that--that I--that you' ; d like to talk about? BAKER: What--did we go over the history of the temple, of the move, or the discussion of the move, uh--back in the--when the temple was growing rapidly, um, we bought a piece of property on Mount Tabor Road. Did we discuss that? DONAHUE: Yeah, yeah. BAKER: And so that money was used to build the--what became a Sunday School addition-- DONAHUE: The expansion. BAKER: --president of the building. DONAHUE: And did that have an impact on--on your life, and on your-- BAKER: No, no. DONAHUE: --your practice? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: Did it, um-- BAKER: It was important to Lexington, though, that we do that. DONAHUE: What change did you notice that that brought to the community afterwards? BAKER: I don' ; t know that it changed the community, but it, uh, allowed space for Sunday school, where before we were meeting on the stage in--uh, in the small rooms that they had in the original building. DONAHUE: Do you think that that allowed the membership to increase, that more people were--found it appealing to send their children to Sunday School as a result? BAKER: Well you had just so many Jews in the area who were interested in sending their children, so that didn' ; t necessarily mean that they did send, or didn' ; t send their children. If they were interested, they sent their children. DONAHUE: Anything else? BAKER: No. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Well, thank you very much for your--for your time. DONAHUE: Well, I enjoyed talking to you. BAKER: I appreciated it. DONAHUE: I hope I gave you some information. BAKER: Yeah, you definitely gave us a lot of information. DONAHUE: Well good. BAKER: Thank you very much. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh057_jk020_baker_ohm.xml 2016oh057_jk020_baker_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Title
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Harold Baker, May 3, 2016
Description
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Baker's father and mother immigrated from Poland and Lithuania, respectively, in the early 1900s and settled with family in the Lexington area. His father established Baker Metal in an old hemp factory in 1921. Baker attended the College of Commerce at the University of Kentucky in preparation to take over the family business. He signed up with the United States Army in 1943, and eventually took over the business after the war in 1945. Baker talks about the decision to sell his business to the Cohens in 2003.
Although his parents grew up Orthodox, he and his family began attending services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and Baker attended Sunday school at Temple Adath Israel. Baker eventually became a member of the Temple Adath Israel congregation with his wife, and the congregation became a centerpiece of their social life. Baker raised his children with a strong Jewish identity, even though he believes that their practice differs from his. Baker describes his involvement with Temple Adath Israel which included administrative roles, fundraising, and contributing to Temple expansion and the hiring and firing of rabbis. Baker discusses the changes in the Jewish community in Lexington that he has witnessed, including the declining membership at Temple Adath Israel in recent years.
When World War II broke out in 1939, Baker learned about the persecution of the European Jewish community from his father, who read the Jewish Daily Forward and spoke with family members in Europe. Most English newspapers did not carry information regarding the Holocaust and most school courses did not cover it.
Identifier
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2016oh057_jk020
Subject
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Small business--Ownership
Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington
World War, 1939-1945
Religion
Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945)
Jews--Identity.
Worship (Judaism)
Entrepreneurship
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Kentucky
Jewish families.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
World War, 1939-1945--Veterans.
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video
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1a9965a2908547999fcfb65abe0af0e0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Arwen Donahue
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
David Shraberg
Interview Keyword
Israel.
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Ownership
Civil rights movements--United States
African Americans--Segregation
College environment
College students--Social conditions
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2016oh053_jk019 Interview with David Shraberg, April 18, 2016 2016oh053_jk019_shraberg jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Judaism. Religion Jewish children Jewish families. Lexington (Ky.) Discrimination. Jews--Identity. Anti-Semitism University of Kentucky Childhood Race discrimination--Kentucky Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Israel. Jewish businesspeople Small business--Ownership Civil rights movements--United States African Americans--Segregation College environment College students--Social conditions David Shraberg Arwen Donahue 1:|21(5)|37(1)|49(5)|64(7)|80(1)|97(9)|110(11)|126(10)|143(7)|162(13)|183(5)|200(1)|215(9)|230(6)|242(2)|257(8)|278(11)|295(10)|312(4)|332(9)|351(12)|366(7)|378(12)|396(2)|411(7)|424(1)|441(2)|461(10)|479(8)|493(15)|509(7)|525(4)|540(1)|552(14)|566(3)|579(11)|596(15)|612(3)|624(9)|643(7)|658(4)|673(1)|690(10)|703(9)|718(13)|734(6)|745(16)|762(17)|775(11)|789(10)|807(12)|826(10)|846(8)|859(10)|873(8)|891(4)|908(3)|921(2)|934(11)|949(9)|962(11)|978(7)|993(4)|1010(8)|1022(12)|1044(7)|1059(13)|1076(3)|1092(6)|1109(10)|1122(1)|1135(1)|1156(8)|1174(9)|1191(9)|1211(1)|1225(15)|1246(8)|1264(8)|1280(3)|1297(1)|1311(1)|1324(8)|1340(3)|1352(16)|1368(10)|1382(8)|1397(13)|1413(11)|1426(10)|1443(5)|1457(4)|1469(12)|1486(3)|1498(3)|1513(8)|1522(1)|1530(3)|1544(12)|1561(10)|1578(4)|1592(3)|1608(1)|1624(5)|1638(13)|1655(10)|1673(7)|1685(7)|1703(15)|1717(11)|1731(8)|1744(10)|1760(3)|1773(6)|1790(1)|1804(9)|1817(10)|1832(11)|1846(6)|1865(3)|1880(14)|1894(9)|1907(8)|1923(5)|1937(7)|1951(8)|1967(13)|1982(5)|1999(4)|2013(7)|2028(7)|2045(11)|2061(2)|2077(11)|2090(7)|2105(4)|2119(9)|2136(6) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253327321" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family's immigration from Lithuania to Somerset, Kentucky in 1900 Okay, let's just start, um, by--would you just tell me what your full name is, for the record. David Shraberg describes his family's immigration from Lithuania to Somerset in 1900 and how his grandfather worked as a peddler to bring his bride-to-be over from Lithuania. His family eventually moved to Lexington in order to be part of a larger Jewish community. He also describes how his family name changed through the years due to immigration. Finally, he discusses his grandfather's establishment of a scrapyard on Manchester Street. Bess Smole Shraberg ; Dating ; David Shraberg ; East European immigrants ; Ed Munich ; Extended family ; Family life ; Family values ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; History ; Hyman Shraberg ; Intermarriage ; Jewish communities ; Jewish marriage ; Kentucky ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Lithuania ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Max Munich ; Moving ; Name change ; Peddlers ; Relatives ; Sarah Munich ; Scherberg ; Schraberg ; Shreiberg ; Somerset (Ky.) ; Winnie Katz Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 746 Helping out in the scrap metal business So your father was raised here in Lexington. Shraberg's father took over the family scrap business when his father fell ill with Hodgkin's disease, and helped send his brother and sister to the University of Kentucky. He met his wife, Shraberg's mother, through Ohavay Zion Synagogue's rabbi Winnie Katz, who set them up on a blind date. Shraberg still has his parents' handwritten love letters. Working in the scrapyard as a child gave Shraberg insight into human behavior, eventually leading him to a career in neurology. He describes the business interactions that he saw and explains the healthy competition that exists between the area's scrap metal businesses. Baker family ; Bess Smole Shraberg ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Competitors ; Courting ; Detroit (Mich.) ; Family values ; Henry Clay High School (Lexington, Ky.) ; History ; Hyman Baker ; Hyman Shraberg ; Izzy Schwartz ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish marriage ; Kentucky Scrap Material Company ; Scrap metal ; Small businesses ; Winnie Katz Childhood ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 1194 Celebrating Jewish identity as a child in the 1950s and 1960s What were your--uh, you, you said you had one brother and one sister? When Shraberg's grandmother would visit Lexington during the winter, Shraberg would attend High Holiday services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue. However, his family eventually became members of Temple Adath Israel because the services were more accessible and there were more children. For example, Shraberg remembers a moment from his childhood of a Yom Kippur service at the Synagogue where the men would prostrate themselves, which made him uncomfortable as a child. He also discusses how his sister was not expected to complete a bat mitzvah. Bat mitzvahs ; Family life ; Gender equality ; Gender in Judaism ; Generational change ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Nancy Ann Shraberg ; Religious services ; Temple ; William Leonard Shraberg Childhood ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1661 Difficulties in maintaining a Jewish identity in Lexington in the 1940s and 1950s Did you--were the Jewish, um, rituals important to you? Did you enjoy them? Did you enjoy going to, going to Temple? What did it mean to you as a child and a young man? Although he enjoyed attending services at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg discusses the difficulties that existed while he was growing up in maintaining a Jewish identity in a smaller Jewish community, such as having to miss school to attend High Holiday services. He enjoyed the High Holidays and Passover, but Christmas was difficult for him as a child because he didn't understand why Santa Claus didn't visit his house. At school, kids would pick on him for " ; killing Jesus." ; As a result, Shraberg got into a few fistfights. Family life ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Reform Judaism ; Religious life ; Religious practices Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1945 Experiences with anti-Semitism in the 1950s and 1960s And, um, so did you re, resent at all the-- you mentioned a little while ago that the, the frustration of being told by some of your peers, " ; Oh you--Why did you kill Jesus?" ; And did you--and that you were one of the few Jews in a predominantly Christian culture. Shraberg discusses the anti-Semitism he experienced while growing up in Lexington. He remembers being called slurs by other children, Jews being barred from membership at the Idle Hour Country Club, and an incident where a neighbor tried to petition the neighborhood to get his family to convert to Christianity or move. He also mentions how it was much more difficult to maintain a Jewish identity in a smaller community such as Lexington. Broth family ; Cotillion ; Country clubs ; Culture ; Family life ; Family values ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Holocaust ; Idle Hour Country Club ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Kennedy family ; Martin family ; Prejudice Anti-semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. 17 2681 Witnessing racism as a child in Lexington in the 1950s and 1960s So where did you attend, uh, school? Elementary and, and junior high and high school? Shraberg remembers seeing racism against African-Americans in Lexington during the 1950s and 1960s. In particular he discusses the segregation in schools and institutions, such as the Ben Ali Theater where African-Americans could not sit with whites. He laments that he did not realize the discrimination at the time and only became aware of it during the Civil Rights Movement. He also tells a story about a time when his father rehired an African-American worker after he went to jail, which was practically unheard of at the time. Ben Ali Theater (Lexington, Ky.) ; Education ; Employment ; Generations ; Henry Clay High School (Lexington, Ky.) ; Jewish businesses ; Kentucky Scrap Material Company ; Prejudice ; Public schools ; Relations with African Americans ; Small businesses African Americans--Segregation ; Childhood ; Civil rights movements--United States ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Race discrimination--Kentucky ; Racism ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.046, -84.496 17 Location of the former Ben Ali theater on East Main Street, across from Phoenix Park. (Lexington, Ky.) http://lexhistory.org/wikilex/ben-ali-theater Article about the history of the Ben Ali theater in Lexington, Kentucky. 3078 Attending the University of Kentucky in the 1960s And then you headed to UK that year. What, what made you decide to go to--to attend UK for college? While Shraberg was attending the University of Kentucky, he played keyboard in a band called the Magnificent Titans, named after one of the United States' original intercontinental ballistic missiles. They played at proms, cotillions, fraternity parties and had so many gigs that they had to join the AFL-CIO union. While attending the University of Kentucky, there was a tradition where his freshmen class would have to wear a beanie with " ; 69" ; stitched on the front. Shraberg also remembers that he stood out as a " ; yokel" ; among the campus Jewish population because there were more Northern Jews on campus than Southern Jews. " ; Magnificent Titans" ; ; American Federation of Labor and Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL–CIO) ; Beanies ; Family values ; Fraternity ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Hazing ; Intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) ; Jewish friends ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish population ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Music ; Northern Jews ; Unions College environment ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 17 3473 Anti-Semitism in Greek life at the University of Kentucky And, uh, I, I had, uh, I think it was in the second year that I decided that maybe I should be more social, so I decided to join a fraternity, and that's when I really became more aware of all the anti-Semitism that was still in the campus. While attending the University of Kentucky, Shraberg rushed for Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) and became aware of the rampant anti-Semitism and racism in Greek life on campus. The incidents would range from comments and slurs to refusing Jews into fraternities. Shraberg was not impressed with Greek life and quit after a year. However, when the new medical campus opened up, Jews from around the country moved to Lexington and he made friends with Jews and non-Jews in his pre-medicine program. Culture ; Dating ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Joe DiMasso ; Northern Jews ; Population growth ; Prejudice ; Southern Jews ; University of Kentucky Hospital ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; College students--Attitudes. ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; Discrimination. ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; Racism ; University of Kentucky 38.035, -84.499 17 422 Rose Lane, Lexington, Kentucky. Location of former Zeta Beta Tau fraternity house. 4152 Developing a Kentucky identity while at the University of Kentucky So you mentioned--you very kindly sent me a bio that you'd written about your years in UK which was-- Attending the University of Kentucky instilled in Shraberg a pride in being from Kentucky. It also gave him a unique Jewish experience that was different from Jews in larger cities. This unique perspective of being an outsider influenced Shraberg to pursue an education and career in psychiatry and medicine. Education ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Gentiles ; Holidays ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Kentucky ; Michael Canarac ; Prejudice ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Small town life ; Stereotypes Antisemitism ; College students--Attitudes. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Discrimination ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 17 4800 Demonstrations at the University of Kentucky in the 1960s Um, you also mentioned in the bio that you sent, um, the political upheaval of the time. And, uh, what impact did that have on you? Reading about the Six Day War and hearing students describe Israelis as " ; tough" ; gave Shraberg his first real sense of pride in being Jewish on a global scale. He also discusses the political tensions, ranging from the Civil Rights Movement to demonstrations against the Vietnam War on the University of Kentucky's campus during the 1970s. Although he did experience some discrimination as a Jew, it was mostly confined to anti-Semitism in the Greek system. He also describes a trip to Europe he took with his brother in 1968 to visit his extended family, including a stop in East Berlin before the Wall fell. Berlin Wall ; Civil rights ; Communism ; Europe ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Holocaust ; Immigration ; International relations ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Jewish networks ; Jewish population ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Political involvement ; Politics ; Protests ; Six Day War ; Stereotypes ; Vietnam War ; Zionism African Americans--Segregation ; Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Civil rights movements--United States ; Discrimination. ; Integration ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 52.509, 13.372 17 Location of the former Berlin Wall in Berlin, Germany. http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt75736m0s6q_252_8 Image of a student protest in downtown Lexington, 1969. Image courtesy of the Kentucky Digital Library. 5871 The selling of Kentucky Scrap Material Company / raising children Jewish in Lexington Um, I did want to loop back and ask a follow-up question about the, um--your parents' business. Did they--what happened to the business, and did they have any hopes that you would--that you or your brother would take it over? Shraberg's father ran the Kentucky Scrap Material Company until he died at the age of 77, but was never disappointed in his son for not taking over the business because of his medical career. Shraberg also discusses the choice to raise his family in Lexington and the meaning of Judaism and the Jewish community across the generations. Baker family ; Building businesses ; Child-rearing ; Civic involvement ; Competitors ; Family businesses ; Family life ; Family values ; Generational change ; Generations ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Gentiles ; Intermarriage ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish education ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish tradition ; Kentucky Scrap Material Company ; Leadership ; Membership ; Scrap metal ; Small businesses ; Small town life ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Kentucky ; University of Kentucky Hospital Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.054, -84.514 17 Former location of Kentucky Scrap Material Company on Manchester Street, Lexington, Kentucky. 6937 Addressing declining Temple membership in the 2000s And as an adult, um, member of the Jewish community here in Lexington and with your experiences being president of the temple, what kind of observations or insights have you developed about the nature of the Jewish community here? While a leader at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg wrestled with the problem of dwindling temple membership due to intermarriage and acculturation, and an aging congregation. He served as Temple president from 2006 to 2008. Decline of Jewish population ; Jewish communities ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Religious services ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 7275 Opinions about Israel in the Lexington Jewish community So you mentioned earlier about, um, how--about Zionism and Israel and how that became important to you when you were in college. Shraberg attributes the persecution of Jews during the Holocaust to his strong belief in Zionism, although he is sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. The issue of human rights in Israel is a contentious issue within the Temple Adath Israel congregation because Reform Judaism tends to be more politically active in social justice issues. As a result, Temple leadership is very careful about how certain events are executed and tend to avoid politics altogether. Holocaust ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Political involvement ; Reform Judaism ; Zionism Israel. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Religion and politics 17 7698 Current relationship to Judaism What's your experience been of the relationships between the members of Ohavay Zion and Temple Adath Israel? With the dwindling Jewish population in Lexington, Shraberg thinks that it would be beneficial for the congregations at Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue to merge, although he doubts that will happen. He discusses his wife's experience with Hadassah, but he laments that his children were not as involved in Jewish organizations as kids. Child welfare ; Child-rearing ; Civic clubs ; Civic involvement ; Community involvement ; Congregations ; Culture ; Decline of Jewish population ; Hadassah ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 17 interview David Shraberg describes his family's immigration from Lithuania to Somerset in 1900 and how his grandfather worked as a peddler to bring his bride-to-be over from Lithuania. His family eventually moved to Lexington in order to be part of a larger Jewish community. He discusses his grandfather's establishment of a scrapyard on Manchester Street. Shraberg's father took over the family scrap business when his father fell ill with Hodgkin's disease. Working in the scrapyard as a child gave Shraberg insight into human behavior, eventually leading him to a career in neurology. Although he enjoyed attending services at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg discusses the difficulties that existed while he was growing up in maintaining a Jewish identity in a smaller Jewish community, such as having to miss school to attend High Holiday services. Shraberg discusses the anti-Semitism he experienced while growing up in Lexington. He remembers seeing racism against African-Americans in Lexington during the 1950s and 1960s. While attending the University of Kentucky, Shraberg rushed for Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) and became aware of the rampant anti-Semitism and racism in Greek life on campus. The incidents would range from comments and slurs to refusing Jews into fraternities. He also discusses the political tensions, ranging from the Civil Rights Movement to demonstrations against the Vietnam War on the University of Kentucky's campus during the 1970s. Shraberg discusses the choice to raise his family in Lexington and the meaning of Judaism and the Jewish community across the generations. While a leader at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg wrestled with the problem of dwindling temple membership due to intermarriage and acculturation, and an aging congregation. He served as Temple president from 2006 to 2008. The issue of human rights in Israel is a contentious issue within the Temple Adath Israel congregation because Reform Judaism tends to be more politically active in social justice issues. As a result, Temple leadership is very careful about how certain events are executed and tend to avoid politics altogether. DONAHUE: Okay, let' ; s just start by, uh--would you just tell me what your full name is, for the record. SHRABERG: Yes. My full name is David Shraberg, no middle name. DONAHUE: Okay. That' ; s easy. And then, what is your date of birth, and where were you born? SHRABERG: I was born, uh, right here in Lexington, actually down the street from UK [University of Kentucky], at what was once the city hospital, Good Samaritan Hospital. So I was born, I think, on a Tuesday, on April 15, 1947, right here, just down the block. DONAHUE: Okay. And what are your parents' ; names? SHRABERG: My parents' ; names are--my father' ; s name was Hyman Shraberg, and he actually was born in Kentucky and, uh, lived in Lexington. My mother' ; s name was Bess Smole Shraberg. She originally was from Detroit, but, uh, she was Jewish as well. My family goes back over 100 years, because I was actually named after my grandfather, my father' ; s father, David Shraberg, who immigrated from a small town in Lithuania to Kentucky in about 1900, 1901, and, uh, sent for his bride, uh, Sarah Munich (??) Shraberg, and they married and had three children, the youngest being my father. So, uh, that' ; s kind of my Kentucky roots, through my father' ; s side of the family. DONAHUE: Would you just spell your mother' ; s maiden name for us? SHRABERG: Yes. Bess Smole, S-m-o-l-e, Shraberg. DONAHUE: Okay. Uh, now, did your parents and/or maternal or paternal grandparents' ; names change when, uh, they came to America? SHRABERG: Yes. It' ; s rather interesting. They originally were able to trace the family back to this town in Lithuania, and I can' ; t quite pronounce it, Azwaca (??), but it' ; s in what' ; s now present-day Lithuania, and the spellings have been everything from--the original spelling was Schreiberg, S-c-h-r-e-i-b-e-r-g. And my grandfather David Schraberg, uh, there--we have a picture of them on their little shtetl in the little town in Lithuania, they were twins--my, my grandfather David was twins with another, uh,--his twin brother, they were, uh, identical twins, and they immigrated, and his brother settled in England and had five children, whereas my father came over as a Schreiberg, but somehow either--they came in, actually, not through Ellis Island ; they immigrated through Boston and ended up in Kentucky with a Shraberg instead of a Schreiberg, but we actually have, uh, a family, another brother immigrated and retained the name S-c-h-r-e-i-b-e-r-g, and they have, uh, family--we have family in Cincinnati called Schreiberg. So there' ; s Schreiberg, Schraberg, Scherberg--uh, several of the family immigrated and their names changed depending on location. So, unfortunately, or fortunately, one of the most common problems I had growing up in Kentucky is people always put a C in between the S and the H, and it originally was, but we lost it somehow between Boston, when we came in through immigration in Boston and when my grandfather ended up in, uh, Lexington. DONAHUE: Uh-hm. So it sounds like you keep in touch with some of your extended family, you know where they all are-- SHRABERG: Yes. The Shraberg side, uh, we did keep in touch--because of the twin brother connection and that another brother settled in Cincinnati, there' ; s been a kind of a--we did--growing up, I actually visited several of my relatives in England when, uh, I was--actually, in 1968, when I was at the university I made my first trip to Europe to visit my older brother, who was in the service, had been discharged in Berlin and we met a bunch of our mishpochener (??) kin who were the twin brothers' ; , my grandfather' ; s twin brothers' ; kids. That was a real eye-opener, not only of the difference, to some extent, of English society at that time, the class system, and getting to meet, uh, relatives all over England--th-the five children settled in different parts of England, one of whom I met that never knew he was Jewish. He was raised in Scotland, his father died at a young age, and it was kind of interesting, I was the first person to let him know he was at least half Jewish. (laughs). It was fascinating. So yeah, we stayed in touch, and one of my cousins in England keeps a--nowadays, you know, with digitalization it' ; s amazing, we actually have a Shraberg genie or, uh, where we can hook in all the relatives all over, uh, really, England--the Shrabergs ended up in England and the United States, a few in South Africa, and then they emigrated to Israel. Uh, of course probably the vast majority of the family in Lithuania were killed during the Holocaust, but enough got out that we have a substantial number of roots all over, uh,--a lot still in Kentucky and Ohio, uh, New York, and England. DONAHUE: Interesting. That' ; s wonderful that you can--that you can keep in touch with them. SHRABERG: Yes. DONAHUE: And what about your parents' ; occupations? SHRABERG: Well, uh, my father was born--it' ; s a funny story, my fa--and this is so touching in today' ; s world. Of course, uh, my grandfather, uh, s--the story is that when they ended up in England--of course, back then you couldn' ; t get on a plane, or you had to take a tedious route. (coughs). He didn' ; t like England because of the class system, so he came to the United States, and he actually had some--uh, not him, but his--he was betrothed in the old country, Lithuania, to what became my grandmother, Sarah Munich (??), her name was, and, uh, he came to Lexington because some of her brothers, Ed Munich and Max Munich, lived here, and they were working--I think one was a butcher and one had a business. So when he came here, he came here like a lot of these European Jews did because he had some family. They just happened not to be in New York or Chicago, but in this little town of Lexington, uh, which is, uh, how he ended up here. And they s--told him there wasn' ; t any work in Lexington, but you could go up to Somerset, Kentucky, and you could probably make a living there. So he actually lived in Somerset, Kentucky, a Lithuanian Jew who spoke no English, and he collected rags and ginseng. He would get on the-- ride the trains and buy ginseng, which was even then valuable, from the folks up in eastern Kentucky, and he made enough money to send for his bride. Picked her up on the train in Richmond, and because back then you didn' ; t live with somebody, they actually got married in Richmond, Kentucky, and they lived in Somerset, uh, for about ten years. Uh, you know, an--this really has the other side of Kentucky, how wonderful Kentucky was. A doctor, uh, I can' ; t remember his name, I think it was Dr. Whitehouse, was the obstetrician and family practitioner in Somerset, where they lived and rented space for this little Lithuanian Jew and this other--who spoke no English. The wife of the doctor taught my grandmother English, best she could, and, uh, they, you know, when times were not good they would let them forego a month' ; s rent. So my father and my oldest--my uncle, who' ; s the oldest, was born there, and my father was born by midwife in Somerset, and then when my aunt, the youngest, was born, uh, her name is Mary, which is not a Jewish name, but my grandmother was so thrilled, uh, and loved these people so much, she named my aunt after the wife of the doctor, the doctor' ; s wife-- DONAHUE: --how interesting-- SHRABERG: --so, uh, they all moved to Lexington, uh, when my father was, I think, fourteen and my uncle sixteen, and the reason was that, as you can imagine, there were two Jewish families in Somerset, Kentucky, and back then, uh, the parents were not so concerned about the boys marrying outside the faith, I don' ; t think they would have, but they were very worried about their daughter. So they moved to Lexington to be near a Jewish community, uh, although my father told me that on the High Holidays, and sometimes on Shabbat, they would drive down through the old, uh, I think it was called Hall' ; s Gap--back then they didn' ; t have the roads--uh, and there was part of it which went through the river, and there was a picture in the old family album of my uncle and my, uh, father pushing a Model T across the water so they could get on the other side to go into Lexington to attend services and stay for the night with relatives. That' ; s kind of the life they lived, and then they moved to Lexington around 1917, I think, my father and mother, uh, after they got married, uh, and my grandfather--I mean, sorry, my grandfather and my grandmother moved to Lexington around 1917. DONAHUE: So why was it that they were not as concerned about the boys marrying outside of the faith as they were about their daughter? SHRABERG: Well, it may not--I think it was partly dating. For whatever reason, uh, I think the boys' ; dating was kind of a little less--it was much more of protective of females, that they just didn' ; t want to trust their daughter falling in love with a gentile boy from, uh, Somerset, Kentucky. Whereas I guess they felt the boys were more acceptable. And that sort of extended in my generation, that, uh, the boys were less sheltered to some extent than the girls from the possibility of dating and, you know, possibly--not necessarily marrying, but dating, I should really say. They really wanted to come up to Lexington after my aunt became old enough, you know. She started elementary school here in Lexington, so, uh, they left and moved back--moved to Lexington. They had more family, and there was a temple here. DONAHUE: Right, yeah. SHRABERG: And a synagogue. DONAHUE: So just to be sure I understand, do you think that, uh, your grandparents were not so concerned about the boys marrying outside of the faith, or are you just talking about dating? SHRABERG: I really mean dating. I think marrying would have been verboten, been very upsetting. Intermarriage was, you know, not, uh--that generation, would have been a bad thing. I think both gentiles and Jews did not think of intermarrying. It was like, basically like an African American and a white, a Caucasian marrying. It was not--it was not done. Certainly it was considered not what a parent would want. DONAHUE: Uh-hm. So they had that added impetus to move to Lexington for other children-- SHRABERG: To be around Jewish community, yes. DONAHUE: And then, uh, what kind of work did they find once they came here? SHRABERG: Well, my grandfather opened up--which is, again, traditional in the rural part of this country. If you weren' ; t a merchant, you had a scrapyard. Uh, they were like first-generation immigrants, they spoke broken English, so I, uh--they opened up a scrapyard, scrap metal and auto parts, in Lexington, uh, right off of, uh, Lyle Road, well, off Manchester Street originally, down in that area. So that' ; s--they did scrap metal, and basically bought scrap iron par--junk and then they would sell it, you know, to purchasers for money. DONAHUE: Sorry, this is your grandparents? SHRABERG: My grandparents, yes, my grandfather. My--my grandmother Sarah didn' ; t work, she just talked on the phone all the time. (both laugh) In Yiddish, by the way, mainly. She spoke--that was her primary language, was Yiddish. DONAHUE: Who was she talking to? SHRABERG: Other Jewish women who spoke Yiddish, I think, you know. And if they didn' ; t speak Yiddish, she' ; d still speak Yiddish to them. I remember her on a little--she had a little dial phone, she loved to talk. She was a little--small little lady, about four-foot-ten, uh, and she just, uh--very powerful. She was sort of your classical Yiddishe momma. Both her sons and her daughter, uh, she ruled with an iron fist, but, uh, she was small, petite, but powerful. You know--this idea that, uh, the Jewish man, you know, goes to services and, and, you know, does all the praying, and the little Jewish woman stays home and, you know, takes care of the house, that was the kind of Eastern European model, but if my grandmother was an example, she was definitely the ruler of the household. I mean--she may not have had be--to learn Hebrew, she may not have had to go to synagogue and do all the things that the man did, but she took--they, of course, kept the home, and she, uh, all through my uncle' ; s, and my uncle and father' ; s lifetime, uh, they would always go to lunch, while she was alive, at her house, even after marriage. She' ; d insist they come have lunch, which didn' ; t go down well with, maybe with their wives, but that' ; s the way it was. She was a domin--dominating--little small, but dominating little lady who spoke broken English, and Yiddish was her first language. DONAHUE: So your father was raised here in Lexington. SHRABERG: My father moved to Lexington when he was about, I think, twelve or thirteen, or fou--fourteen. He was the middle child, uh, and he started school--he went to Henry Clay, the old Henry Clay High School here in Lexington, yes, and finished--that' ; s kind of an interesting story, another immigrant story. Um, around the time that my father--he graduated early at sixteen. He was, I think, a very smart man, but my uncle had attended University of Kentucky, and my aunt. Uh, my grandfather David, who moved here, became sick with Hodgkin' ; s disease, which is now curable, but back then it wasn' ; t. So because he was the younger son and because his older brother was already in university, and because my aunt, who grew up in Lexington, was a girl, he had to pretty much forsake any further education, and he began working, uh, running the junkyard, uh, and worked there the rest of his life, and so helped send his brother through college here at UK, and then later on his sister. And then, of course that the--so my father never got beyond a high school degree, but he graduated at sixteen from the old Henry Clay here in Lexington. DONAHUE: Okay. And what about your mother' ; s family? SHRABERG: Well, my mother' ; s family, uh, that' ; s an interesting Jewish connection, because there weren' ; t that many Jewish women to marry in Lexington, obviously. So, uh, my father fell in love with my mother on a blind date. Uh, in Lexington there were two, and I' ; m sure other people will tell you, this is very typical of these small Southern provincial towns, there was always--the old joke is, you know, if you have two Jews, you have three synagogues, one that one goes to, one the other, and one that neither go to. Well, we had a reform temple, and because we were close to Cincinnati, which is the reform Jewish movement, really, that' ; s where it started in this country, uh, we had a very strong reform presence. Uh, the reform synagogue was primarily, uh, members were Ger--Jews of German extraction, older families, so they saw themselves as more the upper-class Jews. The synagogue was more settled by Eastern European Jews, who were more into the conservative, orthodox treatment. So my--to make a long story short, uh, my, uh--one of the rabbis at the synagogue, named Winnie Katz, married my mother' ; s older sister. My mother grew up--they emigrated from Russia and lived in, uh--emigrated through Canada and grew up in Detroit and Chicago. So he got a job, Winnie Katz, as the rabbi here at, uh, the synagogue, Ohavay Zion, and so somehow she saw my father, my--and fixed a blind date up, brought my mother down from Chicago at the time, and they fell in love, and after two years of courtship they married. So it was through that connection that, uh, my mother' ; s sister, for a period of time, lived in Lexington as the wife of a synagogue rabbi. (laughs). DONAHUE: Oh, okay. SHRABERG: So that' ; s kind of a--and I actually still have their love letters. There' ; s a huge shoebox, uh, which is fascinating, because, uh, somehow I fell into it. Back then, letter writing was an art. I mean--of course nowadays students don' ; t even lea--learn cursive, but they communicated--they dated a few times, she' ; d come down for services, no hanky-panky. (laughs). You know, they might' ; ve kissed, and, uh, had all these wonderful love letters, both hers to him and him to her, some very romantic, two or three pages, beautiful script, so-- DONAHUE: This is your mother and father? SHRABERG: Mother and father, yeah. So somehow I ended up with the shoebox, they' ; re both deceased, of their love letters. And then they got married in Lexington, uh, in the, uh, uh, I think in the late thirties, right around the time World War II broke out. DONAHUE: Uh-hm. So her family was from Chicago-- SHRABERG: Her family was from Chicago, uh--Detroit and Chicago, they lived in both. They originally were from, uh, Russia, from, uh, an, uh, area called, uh, Berdichev, actually, which was a large Jewish town in, I think it' ; s in Belarus or Ukraine, that area. DONAHUE: Okay. And so--there wer--was a handful of Jewish families who were involved in the, uh, scrap metal business in Lexington, is that right? SHRABERG: That' ; s right. The Shrabergs, uh--my uncle, uh, was in the Navy during World War II. When he came back, because of, I guess, there wasn' ; t much opportunity, he ended up working in the junkyard with my father. There was another family called the Bakers, uh, who were, uh, into scrap iron, and there was another family called the Gordons, and there was another guy named Schwartz, Izzy Schwartz. So there were like four scrap metal and car parts businesses in Lexington all run by Jewish families back in the fifties and sixties. DONAHUE: And was there a sense of, of, competition among the different families, kind of trying to keep a corner on the market? SHRABERG: Well, there was kind of a little competition. There was some, uh, you might say, selective marketing. My father, uh, primarily, uh--he had about fourteen acres of scrap cars, back in the day when you didn' ; t have all the computerized stuff. So people, if they had a wreck or needed a part, would buy a quarter-panel or carburetor or brake drum, you hav--wouldn' ; t go through the dealers. And he specialized in that area. He sold a lot of his scrap metal to either the Gordon family or the Baker family. So there was kind of a, you know, division, to some extent. Uh, there wasn' ; t direct competition, although, you know, I think there might have been if my dad would' ; ve sold a lot of scrap iron to the government, you know, because they were really into scrap. So the Bakers would sometimes, you know, buy the scrap from my dad, and then they would crush it and sell it. So there was competition, but there was also a division, sort of, of specialization amongst the families, uh, in Lexington. So there was that going on too. DONAHUE: Did you grow up helping out in the family business? SHRABERG: I did. I wouldn' ; t say helping out, that would be a little too grandiose. (laughs). When I was a teenager, I was more into, maybe not my dad' ; s--I had one sister and a brother, and my brother played piano, he' ; s a musician, he was really not into cars and junk. I got into it for a couple of years in the summer ; the last two years of high school I, uh, worked in the scrapyard, and, uh, I learned more about human behavior and human--I' ; m a psychiatrist and neurologist, primarily a psychiatrist--I learned more about people working in the junkyard than I ever did taking any courses. It was, yeah--so it was fascinating. I really learned how you can make money, you know. I can remember a car would come into the yard that my dad' ; s wrecker would pickup for like twenty-five dollars, and, uh, some guy would say, uh, " ; Hyman, I need those tires. How much will you give me those tires for?" ; He said, " ; I' ; ll sell those to you for fifty dollars," ; he' ; d just take them right off the car before they went to the yard, so he' ; d make 100 percent profit right there, all in cash. So I said, this is an amazing business. I really learned--(laughs)--what business is all about, how you make money that way. It was fun, and I' ; d go out in the yard--this was before you had OSHA [Occupational Safety and Health Administration] and all that, you know, we' ; d burn--there' ; d be snakes out in that yard and we' ; d be burning quarter-panels off with torches and, you know. It' ; s lucky I didn' ; t get blown up. But it was fun. I did it for two summers and had a good time. In high school. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What were your, uh--you said you had one brother and one sister? SHRABERG: Yes. DONAHUE: What were their names and ages, relative to you-- SHRABERG: My brother' ; s name was, uh, William Leonard Shraberg, and he was the middle child. He was older than I. And then the oldest was my sister, which is kind of funny, because it sounds so Southern, her name was Nancy Ann Shraberg, and she was the eldest. So I was the youngest of three. DONAHUE: Okay, so how much older were they-- SHRABERG: --my brother was, uh, three years older and my sister was five years older. It was, uh--in one level, we grew up in a kind of, uh, Andy Hardy, " ; Leave It to Beaver" ; world. We--I was born in Chevy Chase, in a little elm-lined neighborhood, the--and it was very much, on the surface, a very, uh, you would think it was perfect. It was right out of " ; Leave It to Beaver." ; Tree-lined street on Cassidy Avenue. DONAHUE: So you described how your parents had ties to both the synagogue and the temple. How did you, uh--where did you attend services? SHRABER: Uh, while my grandma--my grandmother, after my grandmother died, whom I was named after, so he died in, I think, ' ; 46, I was born in ' ; 47--uh, my grandmother, for a number of years, uh, would live in Lexington after that, in her home on Kilmore Court, during the summer, spring, and fall. My aunt, who attended University of Kentucky, uh, married a New York boy, Jewish boy, and moved to New York, so during the summers--I got that reversed. In the summers, uh, my aun--grandmother would live in New York, in the winter she' ; d stay in Kentucky, fall, winter, because she wanted the weather better. DONAHUE: And this was your Lithuanian grandmother? SHRABER: Lithuanian--the Schreiberg, yes. So I would go to, uh--I' ; d have to go to services as a child, uh, in the synagogue. Uh, m--my parents, as my brother and sister got older, felt there were a lot more kids in the temple, and, uh, they--I think they liked the temple because it was reform and it was more part of, you know, it was more modern. It was user-friendly for Jews, you know, so they joined the temple. So all three of us--my brother and sister spent a year or two growing up in the synagogue, but we all switched over to the temple. But on holidays, High Holidays, we always had to go to the synagogue, because my--until my grandmother died--she moved permanently to New York sometime in the late fifties--uh, we had to attend High Holiday services there. And, uh, very often Passover, uh--sometimes we' ; d have to spend Passover with her, with her friends off of--a place called Kilmore Court, where there' ; s a small--some Jewish communities near the synagogue. The old Joe Bologna' ; s is over there. So, uh, I did go to the services, and, uh, the synagogue back then was very, very much more Eastern European. During the High Holidays, I remember--there' ; s a part of the Yom Kippur service where the, uh, men of the congregation throw themselves on the floor and prostrate themselves because of what sin--it' ; s very dramatic. Uh, and I can remember as a child being kind of, just, I was almost like terrified, what' ; s going on, like somebody' ; s having a stroke. But these men would throw themselves on the floor. You don' ; t see that in the synagogues anymore, at least most of them. So it was a dif--very much of an old world, there was a dramatic difference back then between the synagogue, which was right out of--could have been right out of a Eastern European little shtetl, orthodox or conservative, versus the temple, which was very modern and American. So obviously, growing up as a kid, I really liked going to the temple, the service was more English and it was more American to me, it' ; s more what I could identify with. DONAHUE: Right, right. Did anyone who attended the synagogue then look more orthodox? I mean, was there a difference in-- SHRABERG: Some of them would. Some of them would wear the beard. Of course they would wear the--at services they would definitely wear the tallit and the coverings. You couldn' ; t necessarily tell the difference by looks. You didn' ; t have the Hasidic, you know, Eastern European, uh, you know. But everybody knew which families in Lexington were synagoguers, so to speak, and who were the temple people, and it generally broke down along the lines of the older--(clears throat)--German Jewish families were temple and the other, Russians and Eastern Europeans, were synagogue people, although there were some exceptions. DONAHUE: How did the numbers divide? Were they--about how many were there in each congregation as you were growing up? SHRABERG: As--well, interestingly enough, very quickly after World War II, uh, the, uh, temple grew very much more moder--there were a lot of changes in, in Jewish life, I think, in Lexington and I think all over the country. Uh, it was much more user-friendly, uh, as far as you could go to services on a Friday and you' ; d have your weekend if you wanted. Uh, there were lots more kids that were, uh, in the temple, uh, and it' ; s sort of been that way traditionally over the last forty years. So more and more, the temple, temple grew, the synagogue kind of stayed at a similar size, you know. I think right now in Lexington, the synagogue has maybe 200 families, the temple 300-plus families. But for a while there were hardly any kids, uh, in the, uh, temple. My parents joined the temple partly, my--and again, this has something to do with how times have changed. When I was growing up, girls did not have the traditional bar--bat mitzvah, which is the female bar mitzvah. It wasn' ; t done. Women in the old world weren' ; t expected to learn Hebrew or do any of that, they just learned to be a good Jewish wife and listen to their husband. (laughs). I mean, so, my--but when my brother became of age, uh, my parents really wanted to join--they liked the temple, uh, and by then my grandmother was only here during, for the High Holidays and Passover, so they didn' ; t have to placate her, but, uh, for a period of time, because they wanted to be modern--the German reform movement, a lot of temples did not, uh, do bar mitzvahs, uh, but they started doing bar mitzvahs about a year or two before my brother was to be bar mitzvahed, so that really--my parents joined at that point. I think my brother was the second or third, uh, boy that was bar mitzvahed at the temple here in Lexington. Before then, they didn' ; t do it, because it was not reform. So they joined on that basis, and, uh, I don' ; t know how we got to that question, but that' ; s how we ended up over there. I think that' ; s where a lot of families with children then started joining, when bar mitzvahs became, uh, part of the temple life, because that kept a lot of people who would' ; ve wanted to join away, because they wanted their sons, originally, bar mitzvahed, and of course it' ; s now their daughters and sons. DONAHUE: Right. So your sister did not have a bat mitzvah. SHRABERG: She did not have a bat mitzvah. She was not expected, really, to learn Hebrew. She did have a confirmation service, uh, which was kind of a reform touch. That' ; s a service they have for, I think it' ; s, uh, Shavuot, the, the spring festival. Um, maybe it is Shavuot. Uh, which they had a confirmation service. Uh, there' ; s actually a picture I could bring in, it' ; s not part of the university, it' ; s a picture of my sister and brother holding flowers for their confirmation service when they were little, but just those two kids, Jewish kids-- DONAHUE: We' ; d love to see that. SHRABERG: I could bring that--yeah, it was in--that' ; s about sixty years old. So it was part of that reform life. I' ; ll bring that picture in of Lexington. Uh, I can' ; t remember what--it was Shavuot, yeah. Shavuot' ; s the spring holiday, and that' ; s confirmation in the reform. So my sister went through a confirmation, but she never was bat mitzvahed, wasn' ; t expected to, she didn' ; t really learn Hebrew. She wasn' ; t expected because she was a girl back then, and she was born in the, uh, the forties. DONAHUE: Did you--were the Jewish, um, rituals important to you? Did you enjoy them? Did you enjoy going to temple? What did it mean to you as a child--(Shraberg clears his throat)--and a young man? SHRABERG: Uh, I enjoyed going to temple. Uh, it was very difficult growing up--it' ; s much more difficult growing up Jewish in rur--Lexington, Kentucky in the forties and the fifties than it is now. Uh, I grew up in a neighborhood in Chevy Chase, where, uh, there was one or two other Jewish families, uh, but going to elementary school, you know, uh, you really were forced to have a Jewish identity, you know, especially during Christmas. I always remember everybody' ; s Santa Claus came but mine. " ; Why did I kill Jesus," ; and I said, I have nothing to do with killing Jesus. I was asked this question when I was ten years old. (laughs). DONAHUE: Who asked you that? SHRABER: Kids. This was a different world. Political correctness was not--so several people said, " ; Why did you kill Jesus?" ; I remember when I was like ten or eleven, second and third grade. So I, I learned to be a fairly pugnacious person, got into a little few fights. But then I would have to say, my friends, uh, almost all my friends were gentiles that I ran with. Uh, and so growing up in Lexington, as far as rituals, yeah, I mean, you were forced to identify as a Jew, and you had to go through, uh, crises when you were a little kid. Santa Claus didn' ; t come to your house, and originally I couldn' ; t understand it. Originally I thought it was just because I was Jewish. Then I realized there was no Santa Claus, and it made it a lot easier for me. But, uh, you know, so I was forced to, uh--and I loved our temple, I must say. Our temple, uh, was on Ashland Avenue, it was an old building, it' ; s over 100 years old now, and back then it had no air-conditioning, but it looked like a church. I think for a while it might' ; ve been a Baptist church, I was told, so they had those big arching windows, and the windows were open, so--yeah, I enjoyed it. We had an organ and a choir, which was very reform-ish. Uh, so the rituals I enjoyed were going to--my father liked going to services. Uh, again, Lexington was more segregated, so Jews--much of the social outlet of adult Jews was going to temple, going to oneg, which is, you know, after-temple social on Fridays. My father very much loved to go to the temple, so we would have to go with him growing up, and the High Holidays. I, I had a love-hate relationship with the High Holidays because of the, uh, long, seemed so long to be in the temple. And you know, it' ; s kind of interesting, uh, I very early realized perfect attendance wasn' ; t important, because back then you did--had an unexcused absence for the High Holidays, so, you know, early in my life as a kid in elementary school, I realized I could never have perfect attendance. Nowadays, kids can get away with it because it' ; s an excused holiday if you' ; re Jewish. But I enjoyed the High Holidays. Probably my favorite holiday was, uh--and we had religious school on Sunday, but I loved, uh--Passover was always a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun, even at our house. Uh, for many years, Passover--I think for most Jewish kids in elementary school a--age, it' ; s the most impressionable holiday, because it' ; s such a happy holiday. And Hanukkah was fun too. Hanukkah was fun. DONAHUE: Did you have, uh--did you always have Passover at your parents' ; house, or did you go elsewhere? SHRABERG: A couple of years, uh, we had to go to my, uh, uh, my grandmother' ; s house on Kilmore Court, and, uh, I have this memory of all these old Jewish families lived on this little court right off--it was right across the street from what' ; s now Rupp Arena. They tore all that down to make that parking lot, but there used to be two--a couple of little courts off High Street, they were circular, just cul-de-sacs. Kilmore Court had about six Jewish families there, incl--and they were all shtetl Jews. I mean, a lot of the Jews of Lexington actually originated from Lithuania, because like on my grandfather' ; s part, they had an uncle or something, it' ; s right out of Fiddler on the Roof, I have an uncle, or the man, uh, you know, the brother of the woman I' ; m going to marry lives there, blah, blah, blah, so they all knew each other, some of them from the old country. So, uh, one or two Passovers I had to spend there with my parents. Once they left me there alone. I don' ; t know if it was a punishment or what--they went to another one--and it went on forever. I mean, oh, I have memories of that. But after that, most of my life it was at our house on Cassidy Avenue, and it was really nice. You know, my dad had what I would consider a reasonable Seder, it wasn' ; t too short but it certainly wasn' ; t too long. And we had all our--my brother and sister, and always friends and a few relatives would pop in from different parts of the country. So it was a wonderful holiday. Yeah. I always have liked Passover, it' ; s my favorite holiday--Hanukkah was nice when you were young, but Passover is one that sticks with you, I think, if you love holidays, as far as happy holidays, you know Judaism has so many, I want to say somber holidays too. (laughs). DONAHUE: Right, yeah. And, uh, so did you re--resent at all the--you mentioned a little while ago that--the, the frustration of being told by some of your peers, " ; Oh you--Why did you kill Jesus?" ; And did you--that you were one of the few Jews in a predominantly Christian culture. Did you resent that at all, or did you feel pride in your Jewish identity? SHRABERG: Well, that' ; s where I think kids are so much lucky nowadays. I don' ; t think there was the pride movement, I think you had to go through these crises. At first there was a sense of " ; What did I do wrong that Santa Claus didn' ; t come to my house" ; , then " ; What do you mean I killed Jesus?" ; And uh, but, you know, kids, uh, pretty much say what their parents think, so I realized--so, when I was probably in second or third grade at Cassidy School, uh, several classes I was the only Jew in my class, you know, anti-Semitism, I became more aware of it. Uh, there were lots of elements--I was a pretty aware kid, so even though all my best friends were Jewish, uh, I know one of my best friends I grew up with was a Protestant family, a very old--old Lexington family that lived across the street, and his father--grandfather had been city manager and all this. Uh, he told me his mother complained a couple of times that we were best friends, because I was Jewish, you know. So there was a lot of--and they were members of Lexington country club, which didn' ; t allow Jews back then or Idle Hour, it was known they would not allow Jews. So, you know, later on it became awkward, when I was in elementary school, uh, yeah, those sort of things. So how you react is either you' ; re ashamed or you' ; re, you know, defensive and pugnacious. So, you know, uh, I wasn' ; t ashamed. Uh, sometimes there' ; d be--if I was in a crowd of kids and they brought up an anti-Semitic remark, like " ; Jew you down" ; or talk about a Jew somehow, uh, I' ; d have to say I' ; m Jewish, because a lot of times they didn' ; t know, you know. My mother was blond-haired and blue-eyed, she looked more like a Ukrainian than a Jewish--(laughs)--so she would catch that all the time, and, and she would--she was very pugnacious in Lexington if somebody made a comment about a Jew in front of her, " ; Oh, that' ; s a Jew," ; and she' ; d say, " ; You know, I' ; m Jewish," ; and they' ; d say, " ; Oh, I didn' ; t know that, I' ; m sorry." ; But it was really a mix between being ashamed sometimes and trying to stand up for yourself. It was tough as a kid back then, like I said. I mean, you miss school and you--you know, the unexcused absences I always thought was unfair for the Jewish holidays. Uh, but I was very popular, I made a lot of friends, uh, in elementary school. You know, I can' ; t say it was that bad. For example, my parents had one family in Lexington where we actually exchanged gifts for Christmas and Hanukkah together, who were Christians. So we--and then I had one of my best friends, my other best friend who wasn' ; t the Protestant was a Catholic, because we lived on Cassidy Avenue two blocks from the old Christ the King Church, so there were Catholics, and he and I became best friends too, one of my two best friends when I was little, and every Christmas, their names were the Martins, they would have me over Christmas Eve at their house and I' ; d spend the night, and then I' ; d get a Christmas present in the morning. So that' ; s the other side of American life. You would never have that in Europe, you know. There was that wonderful acceptance. And I loved Mr. Martin, he was such a great guy. He was a good man. Uh, he' ; d have a beer or two and--you know, growing up as a little boy Jewish in Lexington was problematic. I' ; ll tell you another funny story. I know we have to get to UK, but this is an honest to God story. For a period of time, our neighbors who moved in next door to us were Southern Baptists, and, uh, when they found out we were Jewish, they put--took a petition in the neighborhood to have us either thrown out of the neighborhood or convert. Can you believe that? This was--this would be about 1957. The neighbor on the other side was a lady named Mrs. Broth (??). Mrs. Broth, uh, was a widow. She hated Franklin Roosevelt, not because she was a Republican, but that her only son had died in World War II. She kept a beautiful garden. But God bless Mrs. Broth, when he brought the petition to her, and she was all piss and vinegar, apparently she told the guy, " ; I' ; m going to get your ----------(??) out of this neighborhood, you' ; ve got to leave. You don' ; t belong here." ; So she had her high points. DONAHUE: Good for her. SHRABERG: Their names were the Kennedys, I remember, and they disappeared after a year or so, left the neighborhood. That' ; s a true story. So being Jewish was kind of a different world back--that' ; s a true story, because I remember my parents talking about it, and I said that' ; s just--so there was that current of, growing up, but--day-to-day life was great, but you' ; d have those moments. Uh, the Christmas play. This is something that people would identify with. I think I was in the second or third grade, every kid--one of those grades, we did the Christmas play that year at the elementary school, so we were all expected to take a part, even--I was Jewish, so I had to be--I think I was one of the three wise men in the Christmas play. I didn' ; t mind, but looking back on it, you know, there was that pressure. And there was ----------(??) I said, well, maybe I want to be Christian, maybe being Christian would be so much nicer. You know, of course, looking back on it, that' ; s naïve. So yeah, I mean, you really had to--you were forced to hold on to an identity, you had to. If not, you would be lost. But there were periods in which you were hurt or upset or like, why does it have to be that way, it seems sort of silly. But that' ; s the way it was. DONAHUE: Did your parents or your brother and sister talk to you about--or support you, tell you kind of how to maintain your identity in the face of things like that, or did you--did you kind of keep it inside of yourself? SHRABERG: I pretty much kept it inside of myself. Uh, my brother was a musician, so, you know, he, uh, played classical piano, was in the state finals. He was very much into that, uh, and he basically tutored bar and bat mitzvahs. Uh, and my sister really pretty much--she was an assimilationist, she joined the sororities in high school and tried to sort of make believe. Even though she had a Jewish identity, she was less, not really Jewish-Jewish. So no, I mean, I just sort of, each one of us had to go our own way and find our own--how we fit in the community. Uh, I mean, we all knew we were Jewish, and there were always little family conflicts. I remember one Christmas, the three of us, I must' ; ve been about ten then, we tried to sneak in a small Christmas bush, and my mother said no, can' ; t have a Christmas bush. (laughs). DONAHUE: It' ; s interesting, because someone else who was interviewed for this project described how his, you know, even though his family was very devoted to their Jewish identities, they did have a Christmas tree every year, and it was sort of just a concession to the predominant culture. SHRABERG: And I would give my mother credit for that. They really made a--they would not--they didn' ; t--that was a line they would not close, they would not make a--we were not--we did not have seafood in the house, which is kind of silly, because when we went out to eat, my dad would order shrimp cocktail. But we were not--we had no pig products in the house. There were certain areas in which they would not--their generation would not cross the line. DONAHUE: Did they keep two sets of dishes? SHRABERG: No. They were very reform otherwise. It was kind of a funny--it was a funny sort of compromise. And you know, and it kind of gave me a better understanding of what I say is religion versus religiosity. Not that I have disrespect for people who do that, but, you know, they didn' ; t have the two sets of dishes, uh, they really--you know, we would have--we had an African American maid, okay, or whatever you want to call it, that raised us, so we would have fried chicken, we would have beef with sauce on it. They weren' ; t strict kosher at all, but certain things, like no pig products, no pork or bacon were ever allowed in the house, uh, no seafood, and no Christmas tree. (laughs). No Hanukkah lights in the front of the house back then. So they really did--you know, our house was dark for Christmas every year. So, you know, looking back on it--unfortunately my kids tend to bend those edges a little bit--I think it was important, because, you know, you don' ; t want to--if you' ; re going to have an identity, you have to maintain some--I think it' ; s harder in our society ---------(??), because it was--there were so many other restrictions on being Jewish, that you sort of had to make some identity things, you know. You weren' ; t allowed--well, for example, in Lexington growing up, they used to have cotillion. This goes back to the Jewish boy, Jewish girl. There was a shortage of boys of a certain socioeconomic class to be cotillion, so Jewish boys were often invited to be in cotillion, which is the fancy-schmancy dances they have. The girls weren' ; t. Jewish girls were not, because they were Jewish -----------(??). So there were those messages that you are different, so, you know, in a way, why would we want to have a tree if they' ; re not going to allow me to be, you know--and I was very early aware, I don' ; t know, I' ; ve always been sensitized by the Holocaust, I don' ; t know why, that even if you convert, you know, what happened in Europe wasn' ; t making any difference. So you had an ounce of Jewish blood in you, you could be exterminated, even if you were two or three generations Christian. So I very much was, you know, I guess I had a different approach to it. Not that I think that Jews are special, but I think that it takes a special person, maybe, to maintain the Jewish faith, especially in Lexington, Kentucky. It' ; s a little harder than if you lived in New York or Chicago, somewhere you had a lot of Jews around. DONAHUE: Right. So how did you learn about the Holocaust? Because you wouldn' ; t have been taught about it in school. SHRABERG: No. I don' ; t know when I first became aware of it, but uh, I' ; ve always been--that' ; s always been a very--I don' ; t know why, I' ; ve always been sensitive, I think because--I was born in 1947, and my brother and sister were born in the early forties. My dad was exempted from service because he had a scrap metal yard, which was considered a vital business. His brother was in the service, he wasn' ; t. And I think that for me, when I first became aware of it, somehow I was struck, and I must have been around bar mitzvah age, that there that--there would have been lots of kids my age who never were bar mitzvahed because they were killed. And I always felt that I had a certain responsibility. I was very sensitive about that, you know, if I had been born--if either set of my parents had not immigrated to this country, I would never have been bar mitzvahed, I' ; d probably never have been alive. So I felt a kind of sadness that all the--that whole generation of, uh--and I also think that, you know, Jews worldwide, that that was almost a devastating knockout blow for the Jewish people. I mean, they lost one-third of their population, and probably the richest cultural fount. The United States Jewish community came from Eastern Europe, uh, and, you know, that was the cultural fount for this, the brilliance of, you know, the flowering of the American Jewish community, and it was just cut off by the head by the Holocaust. I don' ; t think we' ; ve recovered yet. I mean--so, going back, I don' ; t know why I' ; ve always--I' ; m a psychiatrist, maybe that' ; s it, it makes me sensitive to things like that, the, the devastation. But just, I' ; ve always had that feeling, even--uh, I was bar mitzvahed at the temple when I was thirteen, and I celebrated my fifty-fifth anniversary by reading Torah again, the same Torah portion, and I remember saying how I still feel so lucky, blessed to be here, that I would have never been able to either if I' ; d have just been born in a different place, a small village instead of Lexington. It could' ; ve been somewhere like Vilna, Lithuania, I never would' ; ve made my bar mitzvah. There' ; s a lot of blessings being in America, you know. When I talk about these things, I always realize, you know, the type of anti-Semitism, not that it can create violen--there has been violence occasionally in the South, but nothing like what happened in Europe, or it never has been. Americans are much more, generally speaking, in my opinion, pleasant, good people. Ignorant like all--we' ; re all ignorant of each other, but I don' ; t think it' ; s anything like it would' ; ve been in Europe, ever has been in this country. We' ; re blessed by what we have here. DONAHUE: So where did you attend school, elementary and junior high and high school? SHRABERG: I grew up in one house on Cassidy Avenue, and I walked to Cassidy Elementary School, and that was grades kindergarten to sixth, and then Morton Junior High, and then I graduated Henry Clay. So uh, my father--so I was a third-generation--my, uh, grandfather--I' ; m sorry, my father graduated Henry Clay and I graduated Henry Clay, so second-generation. So I went to the, back then, the classic three schools. Lexington was, again, a different town. You know, you had two major schools, Henry Clay and Lafayette, that was before Tates Creek, and, sadly, you had the African American schools, Dunbar and Douglass, so there was--I wasn' ; t even aware of segregation growing up, and now I realize how much there was. So I went to the three--what were the--that was the classic--I didn' ; t know how special it was at the time, but yeah, that was the three schools I went to. DONAHUE: So you weren' ; t aware--you had an African American maid. Was she the only black person that you had any contact with? SHRABERG: Growing up, uh, yes, until high school. I remember one or two students. Norma Davis, I remember, or Norma Johnson, who was a social worker, and I think she' ; s deceased, was one of the students there. But yeah, uh, Lexington was a very--it was segregated. People, yeah, I mean, there were no African Americans, certainly till I got to late years at Henry Clay, the last year or two. And just a few. It was very, very segregated. There was Dunbar and Douglass, and Henry Clay and Lafayette, and then later Bryant Station. Uh, it was--it was de facto segregation in the school system, yeah. Uh, and the movie theaters. Uh, the old Ben Ali theater, I tell these stories, was originally an opera house. It was a movie theater downtown, a really nice one, I wasn' ; t even aware of it. We used to go in--there was a white entrance on Main Street to the first floor and the first balcony. There was a third balcony that had blacks only on, uh, Upper Street. So we used to sneak up to the third balcony to throw, you know, Red Devils on people. And that was the first time I realized there were all these African American people on the third balcony at that movie theater, because it was segregated. That was when I was probably ten or eleven. DONAHUE: --what did that make you think? SHRABERG: You know, sadly enough, I never really thought, uh--you know, my--we did not hear the N-word in our family, and of course being Jewish, we were very--it' ; s such a paradox. We were very sensitive to discrimination, because we were discriminated against. Uh, but, uh, you know, I never really realized it till probably the civil rights movement, how segregated, and yet, you know, being Jewish--and I think that being Jewish was a double-edged sword, because obviously we were lumped--you know, the Klan, the Ku Klux Klan didn' ; t like Catholics, Jews, or African Americans. We were all three--(laughs)--you know, not considered part of the club. Uh, so I--but I didn' ; t realize, you know, certainly I had it far better off than African Americans did growing up in Lexington. And, uh, my father was a very, uh, fair man. I mean, he, he--like I said, he was not--we never heard the N-word. Jews used the term schwartze for African Americans. It' ; s a Yiddish word, but, you know, some people would consider that a slang--unfair, derogatory term, but, uh, my father was a very fair--in his junkyard, there was one of his workers who was an African American that on his birthday got drunk, threw a lady out on the street, she died, he went to prison. Back then, that could' ; ve been a death sentence, but he was--my father rehired him. He had to be rehired back then after a five-year stint to work, which kind of was being pretty gutsy back then in the sixties. So he was a very fair man, uh, but yeah, how did it make me feel? It' ; s amazing how ignorant you can be of a lot of things if it doesn' ; t affect you. Here I was, I was aware I wasn' ; t allowed in the country clubs, I had friends who would take me to swim at Idle Hour or Lexington Country Club, and I would feel awkward because I knew the only reason--I would never--my family could never be a member there because we were Jewish, but I could come as their guest. I could go to cotillion, but Jewish girls couldn' ; t dance at cotillion. But as far as that--they had a black entrance, an African American entrance to the movie theater, and that you never saw--I had no African American friends going to school, and I had an African American maid, we called them maids back then. Who I was very close with. I' ; ve actually met--when she died I was--I went to see her many years ago, a number of years ago. No, I mean, it was a dichotomy, it' ; s so unjust and yet yeah, you just didn' ; t make the connection. And I think you probably didn' ; t want to make the connection, because if you made the connection, you' ; d have to stand up against it, like so many people did later on. So yeah, I mean, when it happened, I was all for it, but I have to say, I never was that vocal ----------(??), but I realized how ridiculous it really was, the whole thing. But as a kid, it' ; s strange. I never, you know, I never was prejudiced in the sense that I said anything or felt prejudice, because I realized how much I was a victim of prejudice, I had that much insight. But as far as saying, whoa, this is wrong, no. I think a lot of Southern Jews particularly will tell you that. DONAHUE: Yeah, I think that' ; s common. SHRABERG: And when you' ; re a kid, you just don' ; t even think it, you know? I never thought, well, wait a minute, there' ; s, you know, ten or fifteen percent of Lexington' ; s African American. Why aren' ; t any of these kids in my school? But then I knew there was, uh, you know, the two high schools were all African American. We didn' ; t have Hispanics back then, that was it. Lexington was just a--it was what I call a black dirt Southern town, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. And a drinking, you know, a gentleman' ; s town, so to speak, you know. I would say a red dirt town is more Baptist and they don' ; t drink, but this is more, you know Episcopalian and everybody drinks. Most of my friends were, you know, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, or Catholics, and they were all party--they liked to live, but, uh, none of my friends growing up were African American till I made one or two sort of acquaintances in high school, started to--but yeah, totally naïve, even as a Jew. Maybe it' ; s partly me and the other Jews may say differently, but I was just not aware of it. DONAHUE: Um-hm. So you graduated in 1964, is that right? SHRABERG: I graduated Henry Clay in 1965. DONAHUE: Okay. And then you headed to UK that year. What made you decide to attend UK for college? SHRABERG: Frankly, just lazy. I was shiftless, I had no direction, uh, very un-Jewish, I guess. My brother went to University of Rochester, my sister went to Michigan. Uh, partly it was my Jewish mother, I was the youngest, she didn' ; t want me to leave home. So I said, well, I' ; ll just go to UK, which was kind of unusual. A lot of Jews in Lexington, usually they' ; d go away to school, or if you weren' ; t, well, I shouldn' ; t say, smart, there was always Indiana, this is a big Jewish campus. Uh, I had like a 3.6 or 3.7 in high school, so I could' ; ve gotten into a lot of colleges. I just didn' ; t know what I wanted to do, so I said--and I was playing in a rock-and-roll band back then, too, by the way. So I stayed in Lexington with my band for about the first two years when I attended UK, so I just--it was actually kind of just like, okay, I got to go to college, let' ; s go to UK. It was cheap. I think the first year my tuition was like $140 or something for a semester. (laughs). DONAHUE: That' ; s changed, hasn' ; t it? SHRABERG: Oh, God, it was cheap, and I had a car, and I could live at home. So I thought, this is just nice. I lived on Cassidy Avenue in Chevy Chase, it was a ten minute drive to campus, I could park on Columbia Avenue, no parking problems, walk on the campus. So I just started school and yeah, it was more default. I didn' ; t want to work, so I figured I' ; ll go to college, and my parents, like most immigrant families, neither one of my parents had more than a high school degree. They really, really emphasized you' ; ve got to have a college degree, you' ; ve got to go to college, so I figured, hey, not only do I got to go to college, then I don' ; t have to work full time, so let' ; s do it. (laughs). DONAHUE: Tell me about your band. SHRABERG: The band was called the Titans, and we were--there were two other big bands in Lexington, the Dorkays (??) and the, uh, Mag 7. I played keyboard, and, uh, we actually started in--uh, back then, that was the era of the big bands in the 1960s, so we played these, uh, pretty good gigs and all. We didn' ; t have--we just didn' ; t have the technology we have now for DJs and stuff, so we had all these instruments, they were not digital, had a huge Hammond organ, two keyboard, big instruments. It was a big band, and we were very--we had an agent. Uh, we actually had to join the musicians union, the AFL-CIO, when I was sixteen, and we played, uh, cotillions, we played, uh, some proms, we played fraternity parties, and we did all over the state, played for Pikeville high school prom two years in a row, uh, and did a lot of fraternity parties here, Thursdays and Fridays at UK. That' ; s when I first had exposure to UK fraternities and saw the good and the bad. (laughs). And we made pretty good money. Back then it was, I think we made fifteen dollars a person, which would be more like--you' ; re talking the 1960s, so you' ; re really talking almost 100 dollars a person. I made enough money to not only buy my organ and tone cabinet, which cost about 1,800 dollars, but to, uh, fund my first trip to Europe back in--when I went there in ' ; 68 when I was a student. It was a lot of fun and it taught me--I loved music, so, uh, it was fun. So we were called the Magnificent Titans. Cold war, the Titan was one of the first intercontinental ballistic missiles, so our card--this is how weird it was, it had a card, it had a missile going up saying " ; Soaring to new heights in music." ; (laughs). It was a nuclear ballistic missile. But the Titan was one of the original ICBMs [intercontinental ballistic missiles] in the United States arsenal, so we were the Titans. So, uh, yeah, so that was another reason I stayed here, because one or two members of the band--it was about an eight-person band. Actually, our sax player was Jewish too. We had one sax who grew up around the block from me. He was the only other--one of the two Jewish friends I had. So yeah, we went--I played two years while I was UK in the band too. DONAHUE: So you said you played organ, and what was the second thing? SHRABERG: Keyboard. Electric piano and organ, yeah. DONAHUE: What did you study at UK? SHRABERG: Well, I can tell you my first year at UK--I was an undeclared major the first two years. I had no idea what--I think I was very immature. I was a good student, but I had no idea what I wanted to do. I absolutely loved college. I loved--high school to me was very--I' ; m kind of a hyperactive guy anyway, and it was so regimented, you know, I mean. I was one of the kids--me and a couple of other guys would take off in the sixth hour, you know. We were not the best behaved type. So I loved college, because you could go to class, and then when you didn' ; t have to go to class, you didn' ; t have to go to study hall, you could just wander around. So I was undecided the first two years. I wish I still had the hat. The class of ' ; 69, the class that entered in 1965, was the last class that had to wear the UK beanie. I don' ; t know if anybody ever told you about that. DONAHUE: No. SHRABERG: We were all issued a beanie, a round beanie with a top, and it said " ; ' ; 69" ; on it. It was from the old tradition of the hazing of freshmen. That was still part of that old tradition, and then they disappeared. We got a new president, I can' ; t remember the one that came, and said, enough of that silliness, you know. So if I had that, that would be priceless. It was a beanie that said " ; ' ; 69," ; we all were supposed to have to wear on campus, you know, like freshmen. I think the sixties were coming, so some people said, this is stupid, we' ; re not going to do it. But we were issued a beanie. Uh, and the campus was very, you know, a beautiful campus back then. A lot of the old buildings are still here. This was just before they broke ground for the office tower. The big skyscraper dorms weren' ; t there. So it was a lovely--it was sort of the last phase of the old agricultural, mechanical, liberal arts college, you know. It was going through that rapid transition of the sixties that everywhere. So my first year or two, I sort of--I loved arts and science, but I kind of started taking science courses because I was good at it, and so--and during that period of time, there was--there were more Jews from out of state than in state in the school. There maybe were three or four Jews that were actually from Lexington, and the rest of them were from out--there were a lot of Jews who came from the Northeast. That' ; s where I met--I was kind of the yokel, you know? I met Jews from New York and New Jersey, because a lot of them still, a lot of people from there, not only Jewish, come to UK because the tuition is friendly and they like UK. So, uh, the first two years were just, I played in the band, I went to school, I lived at home, uh, kept some of my same friends. And, uh, I had, I think it was in the second year that I decided that maybe I should be more social, so I decided to join a fraternity, and that' ; s when I really became more aware of all the anti-Semitism that was still on the campus. Uh, just my experience was--there was one Jewish fraternity, ZBT, which is still around. Uh, the ZBT that year that I pledged, uh, had just taken over what was the old Sigma Nu house, it may still be there, off Rose Street, I can' ; t remember whether it' ; s Rose and--Columbia and Rose Street there. They had been, I think, expelled for a few years for some violation party, so the house was leased to ZBT at that time. So I pledged--when I went on the fraternity pledge, I became acutely aware of the rampant racism and anti-Semitism in the fraternity system at that time. This would be probably ' ; 67. You know, there was no question that Jews were not welcome, certainly African Americans--I don' ; t think I saw an African American in the pledge bus. There were one or two little fraternities, maybe Lambda Chi, I think, were maybe interested in having a token Jew. And of course ZBT welcomed me with--they wanted the Jews. And, uh, so I thought, ah, you know, I' ; ll go ahead and become a Zebe, so I pledged and was a member of ZBT for about a year before I quit. (laughs). That' ; s another--I just--I thought that--I understand being Jewish, you want to be part of the fraternity system, but then I think sometimes imitation' ; s not necessarily flattery. I was not really impressed with fraternities at all. I just thought, you know, to me, and I know they do good work, but to me it was all hypocrisy. It was just a way for a bunch of boys and girls to get together, possibly breed, uh, with the same class, party a lot, and then use the excuse that you' ; re doing good deeds, you know, blah blah blah, the Greek model, you know, we' ; re going to be like the Greeks of ancient Greece, noble, which is silliness, it' ; s a travesty. The ancient Greeks would laugh at it. And I just, after a year I was one of the--I had to go through the process of resigning from ZBT, which its hard to get out of a fraternity, it' ; s almost as hard as leaving the Mob, but I was able to get out after a year. It just didn' ; t work for me. And I really thought they were trying to imitate the gentiles at their own game, and it' ; s silly. So I made my own set of friends. You' ; re asking how I ended up becoming a doctor. I don' ; t know what it' ; s like here now, but the first two years you could be undecided, then you had to declare. And, uh, I will tell you one interesting thing about Jewish life at UK. Uh, our fra--the ZBT fraternity, most of the Jews were from New York and New Jersey. They were nice guys. The president was a gentile, an Italian guy named Joe something, DiMasso or something, great guy. And that' ; s the first time I learned something about human behavior. It' ; s like, you see this so often in societies where you get a group of people of the same religion or the same faith together, to have a leader you' ; d better get somebody outside the faith. (laughs). Because he really was able to--all these guys, you know, would be arguing, and Joe was like a really good president, so it was kind of funny. That' ; s where, you know, we had an Italian Catholic president for a Jewish fraternity. It' ; s funny. But anyway, uh, my main social life when I was at UK, being Jewish, was--when I declared premed in my third year, I met more Jewish people. And Lexington became much more Jewish at that point, uh, because the medical center opened up in the early sixties, and that brought in a lot of Jewish--I don' ; t recall one Jewish faculty member. I don' ; t believe we had, back in the sixties, a Jewish studies--I don' ; t know if they taught even Hebrew here. I knew Hebrew from my bar mitzvah. But once the university came, we had this influx of a number of Jewish professors and physicians-- DONAHUE: --once the medical center came. SHRABERG: The medical center, yeah. We had a group of guys who were--eight of us, and we would always go to lunch at different places. There was a hamburger place right here on the corner of Columbia and Rose, used to be called the Columbia restaurant, and we' ; d go there every day and have burgers after class. I mean, I must' ; ve eaten a billion cheeseburgers and fries. And, uh, there was one other Jewish guy in there, Arthur Jacobs, who was from Lexington, who became a physician and lives in St. Louis. The rest of them were non-Jews. And they were from all over the state, from Paducah and eastern Kentucky. And we were a little club together, because we all did premed. And there was real camaraderie. I mean, we would make jokes occasionally about each one' ; s religion, but it was all just fun stuff, and there was a real acceptance because we all had the same goals of being physicians. And, uh, we ate a lot of different places. We sometimes would go up to the UK Lair, the K Lair, back then they would allow students to eat there with the athletes, not like it was nowadays, it' ; s different. And same thing, so that was really my social outlet, all our premed guys, we became real good friends, and then when we got to be drinking age, we' ; d all, on the weekends, go to drink at the various, uh, bars here around campus, some of them--most of the ones I drank at are gone, except the Two Keys, I guess that' ; s still here. All the rest have been torn down. DONAHUE: So, let me just backtrack a little bit and ask you about the fraternity experience when you were--did you try to join any other fraternities besides ZBT? What was the--how did you become aware of the anti-Semitism in the fraternities? SHRABERG: It was very obvious when we were on the rushing. There were certain little comments and certain ways you were treated, uh, uh, that you knew that they weren' ; t interested in you once they found out your name or found out you were Jewish. DONAHUE: Can you remember specific examples? SHRABERG: Uh, well, I remember the opposite example. I think at the Zebe house when I was there, there was one guy, who was obviously not Jewish, who said, " ; Well, these are bunch of Jews, you don' ; t want to rush this place." ; I remember hearing that, which I found kind of the opposite. Uh, it was just known, it was just known. Which is kind of funny, because one of my dearest friends in the premed group, and we later went to medical school together, uh, was from Winchester, and later on, when we were medical students at Vanderbilt, he told me, " ; Yeah, you know, we were told not to rush any Jews." ; Because we were friends by then. Yeah, he was a Delt, Delta Tau Delta, Delt, throughout UK, but he wouldn' ; t say anything about it then. But then when we got to medical school, you know, you grow up into a bigger world. It was just--you knew it, you know. I can tell you that being Jewish growing up in Lexington, if you went to, uh, like I said, a country club, you knew you weren' ; t--you might be welcome as a friend of a member' ; s son, but you wouldn' ; t be welcome as a member of your family. You learned to read that, it' ; s just an intuitive thing. You know, I think that, uh, retrospectively, when people say African Americans are paranoid, they' ; re not paranoid. They learn very early, it' ; s amazing how sensitive, you have any sensitivity, you know when you' ; re not wanted. I knew at cotillion that I could dance, you know, what did they call those, the little dance things where you pick, you know, the no-break thing, you could do your no-break card and dance with all these girls, but you were not going to date those girls, because they were from gentile families and didn' ; t want a Jew--so you knew all that, you knew the lines, it was a whole-- DONAHUE: So many unspoken rules. SHRABERG: Unspoken rules, and just very subtle. I' ; m sure it was not just the South. I' ; m sure it' ; s--but it was very obvious in a smaller community like Lexington. No Jews in the country club, no Jews in this or that, no Jews in any fraternity, uh, except ZBT. There were one or two that may--there was one other fraternity, maybe Lambda Chi expressed an interest in me, but it was like I was going to be their token. DONAHUE: So ZBT, from what I understand, was starting to experience, by then, a decline in membership? SHRABERG: Yes. DONAHUE: And did you have a sense that other people, other of the fraternity brothers, were experiencing what you were experiencing with just not feeling like there was a lot of meaning in it? SHRABERG: Not a lot of meaning. I think the only place the Jewish fraternities thrive are on campuses where you have a fairly substantial Jewish population, where they feel like they can fit in. Here it was kind of like, okay, we' ; re the default--we' ; ve joined this fraternity because no one else wants us, and we' ; re kind of gonna--we' ; re gonna play like the gentile boys, like we' ; re fraternity boys. But yet, you know, we' ; re not going to be able to be involved in any of the major events that these fraternities get involved in. So I think that really kind of put a damper on it. It probably succeeds--I know my brother-in-law was a Sammy, that' ; s another Jewish fraternity. He went to Indiana, though, which has a huge--he' ; s from Louisville, he' ; s a Louisville Jew, and, uh, they have a huge Jewish student body, so I think they can blend in if they want to be fraternities. I--I' ; m not a big fan of fraternities, but that' ; s just my opinion. But I--maybe it' ; s a rationalization. But even after I joined them, I thought, well, this is silly, you know. Uh, the main reason I joined was, uh, dating Jewish girls, which were at a premium at the UK campus too. Couldn' ; t find Jewish girls. DONAHUE: Were you willing to date non-Jewish girls at all, or were you only interested in dating Jewish girls at the time? SHRABERG: Well, that was an interesting--when I was at UK, I was still under the sense that I needed, if I was going to be serious, I should date--I did date some non-Jewish girls in high school, because there weren' ; t any Jewish girls. Growing up in Lexington with a small Jewish community of girls, you know, we did garage dances, we went to religious school, we went to youth group stuff, so that it would be like serious dating would be like dating your sister or your cousin. It was just--it was such a--so I did date a few non-Jewish girls, but--(coughs)--it was just high school dating. By the time I got to UK, I was still under the idea that, uh, you know, you only date Jewish girls, and one of the only--that was the other reason I joined ZBT, because they kind of had a way of bringing Jewish girls in for dating, so you could date some Jewish girls. Uh, I didn' ; t get out of that till I got to medical school, then I sort of was able to, uh--my wife' ; s a converted Jew, so--she was Roman Catholic originally, so obviously got away from that. I was the first in my generation to marry a non-Jew. My sister married a Jewish boy. So I did break the mold. But yeah, in college, I think, uh, almost everybody was--some of the fraternity guys would date non-Jewish girls, but I think the idea of a serious relationship, possibly marriage, Jewish. And there were not a lot of Jewish coeds at UK, not many at all. DONAHUE: About how many? Do you have a sense? SHRABERG: I think a lot less than the men. Again, it goes back to this Jewish ideal. It' ; s okay to send the boys to a school which is majority gentile, they can date, but, you know, they' ; re not going to marry, but you don' ; t want to send your girls. God forbid they fall in love and they want to marry a non-Jewish boy. So we didn' ; t have a lot of Jewish girls here. I dated a girl for a year or two from, uh, Louisville, but there were not that many. It was much more disproportionately guys from other states, particularly the Northeast, than girls. DONAHUE: Um-hm. So you mentioned--you very kindly sent me a bio that you' ; d written about your years in UK, which was very helpful in preparing for our conversation-- SHRABERG: Top of my head, yeah. DONAHUE: Yeah, and one of the things that you mentioned in that bio was that it was the first time--well, that going to UK made you feel not more Jewish, necessarily, and not more like a native Lexingtonian, but it was the first time you really came to think of yourself as a Kentuckian. Can you describe more about what you mean about that? SHRABERG: Yes, I mean, having lived my whole life in Lexington in the same little neighborhood, I thought of myself as just a Lexington Jew, or Jewish Lexingtonian. I didn' ; t even use the term Lexingtonian. But coming to UK, I really--you live an insular existence, and this was before really mass media and roads, so my friends I made from all parts of Kentucky, and I--and I will say the basketball games, for example, which I did go to, really helped, and back then you could get into it. I sort of became aware that Kentucky is a state. You know, I think it was very local. I really didn' ; t identify myself as a Kentuckian before I went to UK. I think that' ; s a really powerful message the university should give their--I think they do, especially the flagship like UK. I really, uh, I loved all my professors. Some--a lot of them were not native Kentuckians, but I did really feel part of a--yeah, a Kentuckian. I identified, even with all those aspects, that it really made me feel kind of proud and identified, and I got to know people, uh, who were from different parts of the state, not just here. And I guess that' ; s because I was very insular, I just grew up in a small town. So yes, uh, I really saw myself as a Kentuckian, and, uh, had a lot of pride in that. I think it was such a special--small little special state in our history, and I was much more aware of it at UK, and it made me really kind of proud. I got to know the campus. It was a small enough campus back then that you could walk the whole campus in half an hour, everywhere from the agricultural building, and then of course when the medical center came, we were really proud. Louisville was the only medical school, so this really gave us pride, I think. But yeah, uh, I probably identify myself more as a Kentuckian now than as a Lexingtonian or as a Jew, that I--the positive values of Kentucky and our history. We' ; re still kind of the heartbeat of the nation, you know, we' ; re a very special place. Small. People have--and, uh, as I got older, I resented the caricatures of Kentucky, that we' ; re stupid backward people. I mean, you know, we' ; re very tolerant people on certain levels, and decent people, good people. So yeah, I think UK did give me that wonderful--I spent fifteen years--four years in Nashville in medical school, about fifteen years in Louisiana, and yet I always felt that I was a Kentuckian, which is kind of odd being Jewish, because most Jews -----------(??) New Yorker or Miami, but I see myself as, I guess, a Jewish Kentuckian. (laughs). DONAHUE: Right. So did part of that awareness of yourself as a Kentuckian come from meeting Jews from other states while you were at UK-- SHRABERG: --yeah, yes-- DONAHUE: --and understanding that their experiences were very different than your own? SHRABERG: Very different. Yeah, I was a provincial Jew. Yeah, very, very different. I was not that acutely aware of it, although I would visit my relatives--I remember going to visit my relatives in New York--(laughs)--this is a true story. My aunt who went to UK married a New York boy, and she moved to New York, so we would go up there, in the city, and I remember getting on elevators when I was like twelve or thirteen, and they' ; d say, where' ; s he from, because they' ; d hear my accent. I wasn' ; t aware I even had one. And they' ; d say, Kentucky. And they' ; d always look at my feet. (laughs). True, in New York, people would say, Oh my, no shoes. Yeah-- DONAHUE: They would just assume that because you were from Kentucky, you wouldn' ; t have shoes. SHRABERG: No shoes, yeah. Because they' ; d get these newsreels, you know, back then the Great Society and stuff, you' ; d see Kentuckians without, you know--but, uh, yes, I' ; d say that meeting Jewish people from particularly the Northeast, I realized I was an oddball in a way. Very unusual--and I kind of had a little pride in being different. But, see--you know, I think that was piggybacked on the--that I was already, thought I was different from the moment I started growing up, because I was always different, you know, being, you know--I think that Jews, like being--there are so many Jewish psychiatrists partly because if you' ; re a sensitive child, you already start to look from the outside in, because you realize you' ; re slightly different than everyone else. So you start analyzing behaviors. So it just compounded it, realizing, gosh, not only am I weird because I grew up in a neighborhood where everybody was white and Christian, but now I' ; m Jewish and apparently there are not a lot of--there' ; s these huge communities that look at the world differently, identify differently, had different experiences than I did. I mean, a lot of these guys were members of their country clubs and all that, you know. It' ; s a whole different world. So yeah. DONAHUE: And was that part of your motivation for studying medicine that early on? Were you interested in psychiatry, or what motivated you to declare that as a major-- SHRABERG: Well, I was interested in philosophy at UK, that was my minor. I loved philosophy. And God bless him, Dr. Pisacano was his name, was one of the doctors who came down here. He was a--when I had to decide my major, I met the history guy, I thought history would be good. The history guy was not--professor was not very motivated. But Pisacano was this Italian guy, Oh, you should be a doctor, you need to be a doctor. So I said okay. So, uh, I was interested in history and philosophy, so I kind of gravitated toward psychiatry, because partly I' ; m interested in just history and behavior, uh, and actually I did a double residency in neurology and psychiatry, because I was interested in how the brain mediates behavior. But I' ; ve always--yeah, I mean, going back to it, yes, I think part of my interest in human behavior is that I kind of lived in a society where I had to early on analyze behaviors, or at least it was interesting to look at behaviors and see-- DONAHUE: Yeah, that' ; s interesting. SHRABERG: Yeah, I mean, uh, as a child I remember my best--one of my two best childhood friends, as I said earlier, telling me, maybe I was eight or nine years old, you know, My mother is really upset that, uh, we' ; re best friends, because you' ; re Jewish. You know, he wasn' ; t trying to be hurtful, but yeah, that was kind of strong medicine, and I took an instant disliking to her. Uh, later on she became like my biggest fan. DONAHUE: Really? SHRABERG: Yeah. Uh, uh, the funny story she tells about me, I was this sort of kid that, uh--he lived down the street, we were born the same year and actually grew up together from the ages of zero till when he died a year ago at sixty-eight. But we lived in the same neighborhood, went to the same schools together. And, uh, I think he was nine or ten years old, we had a big fight and I beat him up real bad and chased him into his house. Then his mother came on the porch of the house and she said, " ; Get off our property." ; So I was standing on the sidewalk, and I said--her name was Mrs. King--I said, " ; Mrs. King, this is city property, I can stay here as long as I want." ; She looked at me, said, " ; Hmm," ; went back in the house. And Johnny, my best friend, said, " ; My mom after that said you were the smartest boy she' ; d ever met." ; (both laugh). So, you know, it' ; s funny how relationships--even though I know she was a dye-in-the-wool anti-Semite, she was also loving, you know. Every Christmas she would have me over--this is kind of a funny Jewish story. We' ; d never had ham in our house, so after about the age of eleven, every Christmas she would invite me over, and they had this country ham, so she' ; d have--first time I ever had ham and beaten biscuits, would be she' ; d always serve me on those little biscuits at Christmas time, which I always looked forward to. There' ; s so many paradoxes in life, you know. So the same woman who was concerned that her only son was best friends with a Jew. DONAHUE: Right. Life is full of mysteries, that' ; s for sure. (both laugh). Oh, can you remember, while I' ; m thinking of it, by any chance how to spell Pisacano' ; s name? SHRABERG: P-i-s--he has family that are attorneys in town now. One of them is at UK, I think, related, but P-i-s-c-a-c-a-n-o, Piscacano. Still in the phone book. He' ; s deceased, but he was quite a--he was a real inspiring guy for me. A lot of the, uh, premed students back in the, uh, sixties, uh, had a wonderful interaction with him. He was a great recruiter for medicine. It' ; s funny, the, I know there' ; s this idea that everybody wants to be a doctor, but it' ; s hard to get people to be doctors in this country. They' ; re just like, I don' ; t want to spend all that time in medical school. DONAHUE: A lot of time, a lot of money, yeah. SHRABERG: Yeah. You don' ; t see the money, just the time-- DONAHUE: I mean a lot of money out. SHRABERG: Yeah, a lot of money and time. Although again, it wasn' ; t that expensive. God, the world we lived in. I think the tuition at UK--I was accepted at UK medical school my third year, but I went another year with the undergraduates because I was having a good time. But the tuition, I think, would' ; ve been 440 dollars a semester, uh, at UK medical school. Very cheap back then. DONAHUE: Did you continue to attend services at the temple throughout your time at UK? SHRABERG: Yes, I would go to High Holidays. (clears throat). I wouldn' ; t go to Shabbat as much as I should' ; ve, but I attended the High Holidays, did the Passover. I never got actively engaged in Hillel--I think they had a presence here even then--partly because I was a Lexington Jew, and partly because I would, I would say that I was kind of a--that' ; s a disadvantage of being, uh--living at home through college, you tend to stick in your home rather than get involved in Jewish activities. But I did attend the temple, certain services. Not as much as probably I should' ; ve, but what Jew doesn' ; t say that? DONAHUE: Did you--were there peers your age still at the temple who you would socialize with? SHRABERG: I would say that I was a very--other than Arthur Jacobs, who attended, uh, and Michael Canarac (??)--there were about three or four Jewish kids that stayed here or went to Transylvania--almost all the Jewish kids of Lexington went to out-of-state schools. Because, I think partly to get out of--to expand your horizons, but also to be around larger campuses with larger numbers of Jews, so Indiana, St. Louis was a popular place, schools in New York. A lot of them were encouraged to go there, you know, if they could get in, the big-time schools like Harvard, Princeton, they would go. Partly that, but partly to be around larger Jewish and metropolitan communities. I think there was--so there were very few of us from Lexington that really attended UK. DONAHUE: Uh, you also mentioned in the bio that you sent the political upheaval of the time. And, uh, what impact did that have on you? The Vietnam War, you mentioned the Six-Day War? SHRABERG: Well, it' ; s funny. The Six-Day War, I think it ended maybe the first or second year, I can' ; t remember if it was ' ; 66-- DONAHUE: --I think it was ' ; 67. SHRABERG: Yeah, ' ; 67. You know, I never realized--that was a real, uh, existential moment for me, because I think, uh--that when I first became aware of Zionism, uh, and became certainly to some extent a Zionist. Jewish pride, you know. It' ; s kind of sad, because it was a war, but it was really--and I do think that, uh, as I said, uh--(clears throat)--for a lot of Jews in the sixties, there was still this leftover from the Holocaust, where, you know, we were just victims, sheep to go to slaughter. We didn' ; t stand up for ourselves. There was all this mythology. So for a lot of younger Jews there was a sense of pride, Jews fight back, you know, we' ; re not going to let people step on us again. So I remember, and this library, it was kind of funny, the Margaret King library here, I would read all the magazines--we didn' ; t have digital--any Newsweek and Time, everything about Israel and the war. It was just like, it was like, almost like a drug for me, I loved it. It just gave me pride. I could identify with African Americans and other minorities who need figures to take pride in, you know, even if it' ; s a military or a bellicose, pugnacious person. So that made a real--real, uh, it helped me, it really gave me a good deal of just pride in my people, so to speak. And the other thing is, all my gentile friends suddenly started talking about, " ; Hey, the Israelis." ; Not Jews, the Israelis. But in my mind they were equivalent. It was kind of funny. It wasn' ; t like, " ; You Jews can fight back" ; . It was, " ; Those Israelis are tough." ; So there was kind of a dichotomy, you know. I think they saw them not as Jews but as Israelis. But in my mind, they were they same, so it made me feel good. Uh, because a lot of my friends would say that who weren' ; t Jewish. That was a very exciting period of my life as far as identity, being at UK and learning about that and just feeling proud, you know, and hearing people talk about Israel, which to me was like talking about Jews, which it isn' ; t, but in my mind it was. The civil rights thing was, uh, towards the end of my, uh, last year here, uh, and, and the campus really started to come alive. And I' ; d say that that was the only time in my life that I really felt, during those couple of years, that I was part of a historical event, you know. I always say there' ; s news and there' ; s history. And the funny part about it is, you don' ; t think you' ; re living history, but I can remember when there were, uh, buses of police coming on campus and, you know, really bullying of students and first amendment rights being kind of threatened, uh, and the campus was going through this huge change. Uh, I don' ; t think we were ready for diversity yet, but we were on the edge of some of these concepts. So, and that' ; s when I became much more aware of what Lexington had been like from the vantage point we were talking about earlier, as well as UK. You didn' ; t--this campus was not diverse, I think. I mean, when I was a student here, I mean, you know, being Jewish was diversity. I mean, there were some Asians, but you didn' ; t see anything like the United Nations we have here now. DONAHUE: Yeah, the--UK was integrated pretty, pretty late. I don' ; t remember the year. SHRABERG: Yeah, and when I was here in the sixties, it was starting, but really, uh, there was not--uh, there was--I don' ; t--there may have been an occasional African American in one of my classes. It was a small campus, but I don' ; t remember--(clears throat)--yeah, this was very much a very, very white campus. And, uh, like I said, being Jewish, you fit in only if they didn' ; t know you were Jewish. (laughs). I was considered a white man only because--but it was, uh, yeah, I became aware in the late sixties--when I graduated UK, I started Vanderbilt medical school in ' ; 69, but I loved philosophy. For two summers I worked towards a master' ; s in philosophy, so I was on campus both those years. And, I was like my dissertation and six credit hours short, but I quit that for another reason. So I was on campus, and then my brother went to law school here in the early seventies--(clears throat)--so I was very much aware, from being on campus then, of dramatic change, oh, dramatic change. Uh, it was all across the country. When I started medical school--(clears throat)--in ' ; 69 at Vanderbilt, you had to wear a tie to class, and the students, by the third year, said no more ties, it' ; s stupid, you know, this sort of idea. But this was old-school stuff. There were no blacks in my class at Vanderbilt and no women, in ' ; 69. There were seven Jews, we were the quota, I think. Seven out of sixy-nine, it' ; s ten percent. That' ; s why Jews --------(??) it' ; s the opposite of African Americans. They exclude us. But to make a long story short, yes, when I was on campus my last year there were changes afoot. You know, you went from starting UK with a beanie to leaving UK, people were in beards, people were smoking pot. I didn' ; t. Uh, and it was just a whole--you still had all the good old boys stuff and the fraternities and all that, but it was really, really you could--there was a seismic shift just starting, just starting. But it was there, and, uh, looking back on it, I was part of history. That' ; s the only time in my life so far that I actually feel I was part of a historical event. I was--I was at one or two of the demonstrations, I was part of the crowd. I wasn' ; t yelling, I was just there, en masse, supportive. But it was fun. Then I saw all these cops, you know, they come in these big blue buses on campus, because they were afraid of a riot. DONAHUE: Was this related to the Vietnam War, or? SHRABERG: The Vietnam War, yeah, exactly. What--what fascinates me about that is, I felt all the cops coming on campus, inciend--it was more incendiary. I think it led to more violence. There wasn' ; t really a lot of violence, but it led to people being upset and angry. It' ; s like telling a child that' ; s in control, you can' ; t control yourself, we' ; re going to bring a bunch of police around you. So I, I really sensed what it' ; s like, it' ; s such a delicate balance, I know--but it was a part of history, yeah, Vietnam, uh, was part of that. My, you know--my brother had been, uh, Vietnam-era, uh, he had been drafted in the Army out of college, so I knew--he was lucky not to go to Vietnam, but I know that, uh, we were very lucky. He ended up in Germany, but I can tell you that I felt so sorry for people who did go, you know, because everybody that went not necessarily didn' ; t want to go, but it was a terrible war, what happened to our boys, I mean. And then they were treated like dirt when they got back. It' ; s a sad period in our history, and I realized we were part of a historical process. But the civil rights all melded together then, too. The civil rights was coming in too, which was really an interesting part. Yeah, it was--on this campus, it did--but it was late at UK, I say, very late, and really peaceful. I mean, compared to a lot of--we didn' ; t have a Kent State, thank God. DONAHUE: Right, yeah. Uh, you mentioned that you took a trip to Europe during your undergraduate years, and you connected with your extended family. Can you talk about how making those connections with your extended family overseas, uh, impacted your own Jewish identity? SHRABERG: Yes, I think it made me realize, uh, the most important thing was that being Jewish is kind of interesting, is that you can go anywhere in the world where there' ; s a temple or a synagogue, you can walk in and kind of feel at home, you can belong, it' ; s that unusual--yes, I think that, uh, that gave me a sense of a greater sense of self, a big part of a network--you know, we Jews unfortunately, because of the Holocaust, so many of us, you know, our history only goes back to the United States, you know, when everyone emigrated here. But at least from this family we' ; ve got some roots. It made me feel very--uh, yeah, it made me feel, I guess, more connected in a sort of world, globally. And, u, it was very special in the sixties and seventies, because we didn' ; t have the Internet and all that, so, you know, the connection was really much personal. Yeah, I really got interested to some extent in my family and, uh, how we ended up here. That' ; s what I said, how in the world did we end up in Kentucky? Family in London, I can understand, but yeah, these provincial Jews. (laughs). It was very--it was fun, I enjoyed that very much, and I still stay in touch with some of my relatives, uh, and, uh, there' ; s a website for the Schraberg side, that' ; s the one I stay in touch with, interesting my father' ; s side. It was very much of an eye-opener, yeah. DONAHUE: Was that trip, uh, initiated on your own, or did you go with your brother or sister? SHRABERG: Well, my brother had been drafted into the Army when he graduated college. So he was in the Army between ' ; 65 and ' ; 67, and he was in Berlin, stationed in Berlin, and they--he was given an option, a lot of the guys back then, you could either be discharged in Europe and spend a month and they' ; ll fly you back, or you can fly home. So that summer of ' ; 68, my last year of college, I--the money I' ; d saved from the band, I flew Pan Am to Berlin, my brother rented a car, and we traveled through Europe together. So we drove--that was during the Cold War, so we drove--we actually went through Checkpoint Charlie in East Berlin, and we drove through East Germany, and then through France and all this. Funny, you talk about history, we were going to go to Czechoslovakia, but that was during the Czech Spring and right before were going to make that trip, the Communists marched in. So I really got to see a totalitarian state, too, and I also got a better understanding of what it must' ; ve been like to be in Nazi Germany, because at that time in Berlin was split, and we went to the east side of Berlin--and my brother spoke fluent German--uh, nobody smiled. It was amazing, nobody smiled. We walked in East Berlin, people were smiling. It was--to see the difference in what it' ; s like-- DONAHUE: --in West Berlin people were smiling? SHRABERG: Yes. Because it was not--I wouldn' ; t say capitalist, just a free society. So we went to England, with my brother, and that was my first trip, uh, near the end of the trip and visited the Seymours, which was the Jewish branch that the twin brother--that was the oldest daughter. And then we actually went and visited a couple of relatives, the one from Scotland. And, uh, I made another trip a few years later and visited some family. One of the grandsons would be a great--a cousin once or twice removed, lived in Wales. We went to Cardiff and visited him. So it was kind of fun to see the branches, there' ; s something really neat about that, when you think you' ; re connected by these roots going back to Lithuania. So I' ; ve always found that really interesting. Like most adults, you don' ; t keep as much touch with those people, but if one of them were to call me and say, can we come visit you, I' ; d be, come on down, stay with us, I would love to hear and see what they' ; re all about. So I' ; ve been very lucky with the jet age, you know, to extend--I always think how different life was, you know--we think of immigration as such, in a way an easy thing, you get on a plane and come over here. I mean, it' ; s tough, I know, but once you get a visa, you just fly. Those people, the people who settled this country and up to the 20th century, getting over here was no easy task. You' ; d go all through these countries, there wasn' ; t any European Union. My, my grandfather David, the one that immigrated to Kentucky, was this Lithuanian Jew who apparently rolled the rails up in eastern Kentucky, and they didn' ; t have hotels there, so families, they' ; d never seen a Jew before. The stories he told my dad were, they' ; d put him up, you know, he was buying ginseng, so they put him up for the night because they wanted the children to see what a Jew--they' ; d never seen a Jew. And according to, uh, uh, my dad and my uncle said, I' ; m sure you' ; ve heard this before, the kids would feel his head to see if there were any horns coming out. That' ; s fascinating. But, I can' ; t imagine the courage of somebody, a little old Jewish Lithuanian guy with broken English, you know, going up into places like Pike County and Floyd County, negotiating about ginseng, I don' ; t know how they were able to--and then riding the trains back to Somerset, how he did it. But he did it. It' ; s a piece of Kentucky history. And that makes me proud, again, I said it, I see myself as a Kentuckian kind of first, because my family, now we' ; re 100 years in the state, and actually through marriage I go back a couple hundred years. My wife' ; s family settled--uh, the mother of my children settled, they were colonial--Revolutionary War soldiers who' ; d actually settled in the Elizabethtown area. So, uh, in fact, my--it' ; s funny, my son, named Zachary, he' ; s named after a guy named Zachariah Riney, who has a little plaque outside Rineyville, who was Abraham Lincoln' ; s, uh, first teacher in elementary school. So I can say that through marriage, I' ; m kind of really a Kentucky guy, a Kentuckian. University of Kentucky really did that for me, I would say. It gave me an identity as a Kentuckian that I didn' ; t have before. And even though all the Jewish experiences made it kind of--it was mixed. Overall, as I said in my--it was a very positive experience, really. I felt--never had a problem with a professor, that' ; s for sure. I loved all my professors there, even the tough ones. I mean, there was never a mention of being Jewish, being different. DONAHUE: So the only anti-Semitism you experienced at UK was with the fraternities, or were there other experiences besides that? SHRABERG: I would say that it was primarily the fraternity system at that time was very rigid and old-fashioned. I think that was the major thing on this campus. I think the remainder of the campus was very giving and open. My, uh, sixth-grade teacher at Cassidy went on and got her PhD in English, and she nominated me for Phi Beta Kappa, so, you know, there was no prejudice there, and she wasn' ; t Jewish, Mrs. Peeble, God rest her soul. So I became Phi Beta Kappa in--uh, that was the only fraternity I always say I was proud to be a member of, April 1969. So, uh, I would say that I experienced nothing from the vantage point of faculty. Uh, and really, in the student body I would say it was only in that area, and I think that' ; s probably changed a lot over the--I don' ; t know how much has changed--and I think that was really a reflection of some of the undercurrents of our society back then. I mean, most of the kids in the fraternity were kind of the ruling class, so to speak, and so it was probably--I think it' ; s much different now. I' ; m sure there' ; s probably still some of that. I think at this point, and wha--very refreshing, is even back then, but certainly as the sixties progressed, a lot of the best and the brightest students who could' ; ve been members of fraternities said, who cares? I don' ; t want to be part of that, it' ; s silliness. There were more important issues, as they say nowadays. I think the beginning, but now I think it' ; s very true, I don' ; t begrudge people being members of fraternities at all, it' ; s fine. But I think a lot of kids that would be fraternity or sorority people were interested in maybe more important things. (laughs). It' ; s okay to play, I guess. I' ; m not putting them down too much. But that was probably the major area, and it kind of reflected back to growing up, some of the things, country clubs and other things which you were, you know--well, there' ; s the Lexington Club, for example, it' ; s a club here in Lexington for millionaires. It' ; s the city club, didn' ; t have Jews, only WASPs [White Anglo-Saxon Protestants], no Catholics. But now they' ; ll take a Jew if they want to pay the membership, I think, or--I hate to say that, I know we' ; re on the record, but you know, all these things are falling apart to some extent. Still some remnants, probably, but certainly not anything--our society--just walk on this campus, it' ; s so different than it was. DONAHUE: Do you want to take a five-minute break? Let' ; s just take a short break, then we can-- [unrelated material, not transcribed] DONAHUE: I did want to loop back and ask a follow-up question about the--your parents' ; business. Did they--what happened to the business, and did they have any hopes that you or your brother would take it over? SHRABERG: Well, I think that, uh, no, I think we were sort of a typical, I wouldn' ; t say just Jewish, but maybe Jewish immigrant family. I think, uh, my mother was very much into higher education, and I guess we were the typical Jewish family. My sister became a--got her degree in social work and teaching, my brother became a lawyer, and I' ; m the doctor. You know, maybe if we had another kid, another boy, he would' ; ve been the junkman. Uh, I think my father would not have objected to my taking over the business, but, uh, he worked in that business till the day he died. He worked till seventy-seven, and actually went to services on Friday night, uh, had a heart attack and died on Sunday, at seventy-seven. So he died with his boots on. But had sold a major portion of the business by that time to the--uh, sold out. I think that my father was not disappointed that I didn' ; t go into the business by virtue of I went into medicine, you know. So I think he would' ; ve been okay with it. I, uh--my father had a photographic memory about those parts, and I don' ; t think I could' ; ve ever been as successful as he was. (laughs). He knew every part of every car. Back then, before you had computerized parts, you had to know the difference between a carburetor in, say, a 1985 Pontiac and a 1983 Pontiac, and I, I couldn' ; t do that. That' ; s how he made his money, he knew exactly--and he had fourteen acres of cars, where he knew where each one was. So he sold the business, and several people thought about buying it, and he, uh, he had one little yard on Manchester Street where he started that he continued to sell parts, basically to, uh, people who were trying to customize cars, till he died. And he died with his boots on. DONAHUE: What was the name of his business? SHRABERG: Kentucky Scrap Material Company was its name. He was in business, uh, he worked, I think, for sixty years. He started working in--well, he worked at the age of sixteen, he died at seventy-seven, so he worked, uh, sixty-one years. DONAHUE: And I know that the Baker family business still exists. SHRABERG: Baker Metals, we' ; re good friends actually. This is a small town, Lexington. Uh, my wife and I are good friends with Ben and Ruth Baker, who Ben is the one that ran Harold' ; s business, and they were very successful. And the funny part about it, it' ; s kind of a joke that Ben married a, a girl named Ruth Gordon, and Gordon Metals were another big business, they sold a lot of structural steel, a lot of which is in some of the buildings here at UK. (laughs). So we' ; re actually very dear friends, we travel to Europe a lot, my wife and I, with Ben Baker, who' ; s one of the Bakers, and I went to actually Sunday school and, uh, with Mike Baker, who was my age, so we both were confirmed together and bar mitzvahed a week apart. DONAHUE: Okay. Yeah, I know we' ; re hoping to interview Ben for this project as well. SHRABERG: Ben Baker can give you a lot of, uh, of history of Lexington. He' ; s got an encyclopedic mind, and what you' ; ll found out is by marriage or otherwise, we all are kind of related. Somehow or another, my grandmother, who was a Munich, uh, is related to all the Munichs that are sort of related to some of the Bakers. So just--not through marriage--in a small town like this, it' ; s incredible, just interconnections, but it' ; s funny. As a matter of fact, there' ; s a prize every year, I think it' ; s either Max or Ed Munich, they gave at UK medical school, a speech, as part of the Munich family that is, being that my grandmother was a Munich that married my grandfather from the old country, we' ; re all interrelated. (laughs). You' ; ll enjoy Ben, he' ; s encyclopedic. DONAHUE: Okay, great, thank you. Let' ; s see, so you talked a little bit about why you chose to specialize in neurology and psychol--psychiatry, sorry, and that was interesting. Is there anything else you wanted to add to that? SHRABERG: Well, it' ; s kind of, it' ; s ironic that I' ; m now half-time the assistant professor of psychiatry over at UK Chandler, where I' ; m, uh, training residents. I do the consult service there. So I' ; ve come home to roost at the university, so I' ; m back here. I kind of find that--it' ; s wonderful for me. I spent fifteen years in New Orleans, where I did my training and practice, private practice, so I' ; m kind of part of the university community and it makes me feel really good. DONAHUE: Yeah, what made you decide to return to Lexington after those years in Louisiana? SHRABERG: You know, it' ; s interesting. Uh, Lexington is one of those cities that gets under your skin. I think I always longed to come back here. Uh, when I finished my residency in neurology and psychiatry in ' ; 78, I came back and spent a year with the faculty here, and then I had an offer to go back to Tulane and be in the department there, uh, as an assistant professor of psychiatry and neurology. I spent a couple of years there, uh, and then I, uh, for about eight or nine years, private practiced in New Orleans. (clears throat). And then I really started to miss Kentucky, and also the school system down there was bad, and you have these fantasies that home is just the way it always is, so I wanted my kids to try to grow up in, uh, Lexington and try to have some experiences I did. So I returned here in ' ; 87, when I was forty, and, uh, you know, I think part of it was romantic, part of it it' ; s I wanted them to have the Kentucky roots. So, uh, that' ; s why--I have five kids, only one of them lives in Kentucky. The others live either in New Orleans or California. But what can you do? DONAHUE: So even though you had had challenges as a child growing up in Lexington, there was something about it that you wanted your kids to experience? Or did you feel like maybe it had changed? SHRABERG: It had changed, I think. Yes, it had changed, and even with those experiences, it just, you know, I think that, uh--maybe I' ; m being romantic, but where you grow up is--becomes part of your blood, you know, you' ; re part of the soil, the water, it' ; s part of your spirit. I always felt that, uh, about Lexington and about Kentucky, so--and, uh, it' ; s--I can' ; t say that on some levels maybe, you know, you always say what if, what if I' ; d have gone to, say, medical school in New York or Chicago and married somebody from the big city, I could' ; ve been a big-city Jew instead of a little shtetl Jew, a provincial Jew. (laughs). But I am what I am, and you know, I' ; ve traveled, I' ; ve done a lot of traveling with the Bakers, they do a lot of traveling all over the world. And, uh, I like to think of myself--I love history and philosophy. But I' ; m still very comfortable with just being in Kentucky. Yeah, I just, uh, it' ; s part of me, maybe more than a lot of people. I just feel part of this, this is part of me, with its bad and its ugly. It' ; s got its good, too, like every--there' ; s no perfect home, I don' ; t think. Everyplace has its problems, and for all the things that we' ; re talking about now that I felt growing up, I overall loved my childhood, I loved my life here. I' ; m grateful to some extent that it made me so insightful and sensitive to things. I think it made me a better psychiatrist. I can not only empathize with what people feel, but I can know, you know, how maybe to deal with it. And you know, my wife always says, you know, you had--compared to what a lot of people went through, you had a nice childhood, an easy childhood, and that' ; s probably true. You know, I mean, you know, I never really, you know, for the few tears and hurts that I went through, it' ; s my personality, I' ; m overall, like you just asked the question, yeah, I' ; m very happy to be here and, you know, I expect to die here. (laughs). Like my dad, I' ; m going to work and die in my boots, that' ; s my goal. I' ; ve got my plot at the Lexington Cemetery with the rest of the Shrabergs. (Donahue coughs). Not any time soon. DONAHUE: Yes, touch wood. So what is your wife' ; s name, and how did you meet her? SHRABERG: Well, that' ; s a little bit of a story. My first wife--I' ; ve had two wives. Both of them were Catholics, I don' ; t know what it is about Catholic girls. My first wife, who is the mother of my five children, I met in New Orleans, and we were married, uh, fifteen years. My second wife I met here after we were divorced. We' ; ve known each other twenty years, been married, uh, nineteen years, and her name is Pat, Patricia McCreary, uh, Shraberg, and this is kind of an interesting piece of Lexington trivia. My father never was part of the temple. He was on one committee that counted votes, but he never wanted to be an officer of the temple. Uh, I was president of our temple for two years, and my wife is finishing her presidency now, for two years, so we' ; re the first, uh, husband-and-wife pair that have been presidents of the temple. Of course they didn' ; t have any female president of the temple the first fifty years. So I' ; m kind of proud of her. So we' ; re both--we' ; re a blended family. We have eight kids between us. DONAHUE: Wow, okay. So you have five children of your own, and are they from your first wife, or your second-- SHRABERG: --yes. DONAHUE: And how did you and your first wife approach your children' ; s Jewish education? SHRABERG: Well, my first wife converted to Judaism. Uh, she went through the mikvah in New Orleans, you know, the ritual bath, and so all five of my kids were raised Jewish. Which I think I--you know, she--and my second wife, uh is, uh--she--her first--her children are kind of multidenominational, but, uh she actually sent them for a while, while they were growing up, to temple. She was more of a--she calls herself a recovering Catholic. (laughs). She sent her kids to Unitarian and also temple. So even before we met, she kind of was more Jewish than I was, and like a lot of converts, she' ; s much more involved in temple life. She' ; s been a wonderful president. She' ; s quite a leader in the Jewish community, I think. And so--uh, so all five of my children are Jewish, and my three stepchildren, uh, have been--know the temple, they' ; re kind of nondenominational, like a lot of kids are now. So there' ; s really been no conflict, and she' ; s--we would go to temple together, she' ; s the president right now, has been for two years, so she' ; s as Jewish as you can be. DONAHUE: Can you trace any kind of generational differences in your approaches to Judaism from your parents to you to your children? SHRABERG: Oh yes. It' ; s so dramatically different. This comes with a core of growing up, maybe in America, but certainly in Lexington. For my parents, temple life and their social life were identical. Uh, they would go to, uh, parties with their Jewish friends, temple--all social activities, ball games, Jews were all together. It was very much of a social outlet. Uh, you know, Lexington didn' ; t have any Jewish country clubs till Tates Creek originally was the country club that accepted Jews. So all the Jews belonged to Tates Creek who could afford to. So I would say that growing up, uh, for them, being Jewish was as much of a social as a religious life. DONAHUE: Did they belong to the Tates Creek Country Club? SHRABERG: Yeah, my dad was a golfer, and that' ; s where I learned to play, my passion for golf. That was my father-son stuff. Yes, they were members of Tates Creek when it was a country club. It was kind of funny, Tates Creek Country Club, the pro there for our whole life was a guy named Humzey Yessin, God bless him, he was a really great guy, who was, I think, a Palestinian Christian. He was the pro, and he had all these Jewish members. They all got--it' ; s only in America, and his kids are all great, old Humzey was a lovely man, a great guy. Uh, when he retired, he was an avid fisherman--uh, Ben Baker can tell you about that relationship--so he used to go fishing on Warren Rosenthal' ; s, I don' ; t know if you know Warren, he has a farm out at Patchen Wilkes, a farm--he always let--the only person that could fish in his lake was Humzey So, you know, that' ; s the wonderful, growing up, a lot of social networking between the Jews. By the time, uh, I grew up, things were changing, although, uh, growing up as Jewish, most of the times that I went to, uh--we used to have what were called garage dances in the summer. It was always at the Jewish girls' ; houses. But, you know, I would go to cotillion, where there were mainly Christian girls. In high school I was friends with Christians. Uh, and even though there was still that subtle tendency that you were different and you weren' ; t allowed in certain venues, you were allowed more than they were. And being of a religion was very important, your identity: you' ; re Jewish, you' ; re Baptist, you' ; re Episcopalian. By the time my kids grew up, it seems--well, you know, none of my kids have actually married in the faith. It' ; s kind of sad--well, I shouldn' ; t say sad, I love all my in-laws. Uh, some of the kids aren' ; t being raised Jewish, and what are you going to do? They' ; re not raised anything, the ones in California seem to just not, you know, right now, at least. I have two young--one grandchild, one on the way. They' ; re not really thinking of religion, and that' ; s this generation. So it' ; s a whole different world, and I don' ; t think they even think of themselves so much as a religious identity anymore, a lot of them. And of course as a parent, you always feel guilty, what did I--did I not strongly--but our society' ; s changed so much. I mean, religion is not--your religion identity is not so important, I guess. So yeah, over three generations--and that' ; s why, you know, so much of our membership, young people don' ; t have a tendency to join the temple or the synagogue in even Lexington, because their social outlets are everywhere now, you' ; re not excluded from anything. So yeah, it' ; s changed dramatically. I can say living in Lexington, from my parents who would--normally, if they go out to dinner, they' ; d all be Jewish friends. My dad had a gin rummy club. Uh, one of the--I think maybe one of the players was gentile, the rest were all Jews. Golf foursomes, almost always Jewish. Later on there were some--and he had gentile friends, but most of the socialization, you were with your own co-religious. Changed a lot in my generation, and now it' ; s just totally different. So over three generations, it' ; s just dramatic, and with that, the involvement in the temple and the synagogue has dropped in membership, partly because of that, I think. If you moved to Lexington in the 1950s, uh, if you wanted to have a social life, you joined the temple or synagogue. Now you don' ; t have to. DONAHUE: Did all of your children attend the temple as often as you had growing up? SHRABERG: Yes. All three, all my children, I' ; m proud to say, were bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed, my two daughters were bat mitzvahed, and bar mitzvahed. They all know Hebrew. And they have a Jewish awareness, but, uh, none of them so far have been--gotten engaged or joined a temple or synagogue. Which is--and I' ; m a bit--I feel awkward about it, particularly since I was president for two years and my wife, but, you know, you can' ; t force your kids, unfortunately, to do anything. I don' ; t think I' ; m alone, either as a Jew or as an American, about that, though. I mean, for all these huge mega-churches that have all these families members, I think the vast majority of Americans kind of just--it' ; s laissez faire, comme-ci, comme-ca, what religion, what do I do with that. DONAHUE: What are your children' ; s names and ages? SHRABERG: Well, my--the oldest is Zachary, Zachary Nathaniel. He' ; s the one that was named after Zachariah Riney. Uh, then the next one is, uh, uh, Joshua, uh, Mansell (??) Shraberg. So--and then the third one is, I had twins, so ones Aaron Hiam (??)--Hiam is named after my father--uh, Shraberg. Uh, my father was still alive when he was named, and of course the Ashkenazi tradition, Jewish tradition, is you don' ; t name a child after a living parent, but we went ahead and called him Hiam. And then his sister, who' ; s a twin, is Mary, uh--Elizabeth Mary, who' ; s named after my aunt Mary. And then my youngest one is, uh, uh, Sarah, uh, Leah Shraberg. Sarah Rose, I' ; m sorry, Sarah Rose. And Sarah Rose, my grand--she was named after my deceased grandmother Sarah Munich Shraberg, and my other grandmother' ; s name was Rose. So Sarah Rose. We liked Sarah Leah, but everybody--we knew her whole life people would say, Oh, you' ; re the--you know, Sarah Lee. So they all have names that are part--some of the names are actually named after my wife' ; s family, which weren' ; t Jewish, but Zachary, of course, is an Old Testament name anyway, so we can get away with that one. DONAHUE: And how--how would you approach holidays with your children as they were growing up? Did you have similar traditions to what you had in your home as a child? SHRABERG: Yes, we had, we had all the major holidays. We did Pesach, or Passover, at home. We took them to the High Holidays. They were all bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed. So we gave them a strong Jewish life, and they identified as Jewish. They all learned Hebrew. Uh, so, you know, they have all the fundamentals if they want to be, but, you know, our society is so assimilationist now. You know, there was an old saying that, uh, the anti-Semite is the enemy of the Jew, and anti-Semitism is the friend of the Jewish people, because it' ; s like me, you' ; re forced to have an identity if you' ; re discriminated against, but now there' ; s so little, you know, they don' ; t feel it, at least, so they--all my children have married--I would say they' ; re non-Jews, because they don' ; t have any faith, none of them, they' ; re just, you know, their mates are all nothing. But I will say they all got married by rabbis, so--and they all supposedly are going to raise the children Jewish, they say, but so far nothing' ; s really happened in that area. DONAHUE: And as an adult, uh, member of the Jewish community here in Lexington and your experiences being president of the temple, what kind of observations or insights have you developed about the nature of the Jewish community here? SHRABERG: Well, uh, I think the Jewish community in Lexington, uh, had been vibrant growing up. I see it dying out in the small towns. Uh, I think only the future will say if we' ; ll have a Jewish community here in 100 years. You know, like I said, looking--and maybe I' ; m just saying what people have said forever, but one-third of the Jewish people were exterminated, and there' ; s so much intermarriage, so much less participation in the temple, you really wonder will there be any Jewish presence much in Lexington in 100 years. And then maybe, you know, what' ; s the future of the Jewish people worldwide, I don' ; t know, without Israel, and even, you know, that may be it. I just don' ; t know. I mean, certainly the large urban areas--you know, the Jews are such a funny group of people, because I' ; m always amazed, I mean, we represent less than one-tenth of 1 percent of the population yet we' ; re told how powerful we are, how rich we are. My God, I mean, you know, you could walk across the land here and you' ; d never meet a Jew if you don' ; t try. But I do see just a--I' ; m worried about our future, uh, more than--I think certainly in this--in the United States, I think there' ; s a gradual--in sheer numbers, in participation. It' ; s true in all the mainstream religions, but the Jews were starting with such a small population, there' ; s six million Jews in a country of 340 million people, and with all our kids growing up and so many of them not engaging in Jewish life, you really wonder what' ; s going to be--what' ; s going to--I worry. In a community like Lexington, you really worry. Probably the biggest gift that Lexington has had was UK, because we bring in a lot of Jewish faculty, which helps kind of replenish our stock. If we didn' ; t have UK, I don' ; t know what would happen. I know both the temple and the synagogue, a lot of our members are UK faculty, you know, from the medical school and the campus. Without that, I don' ; t know. We would definitely--our numbers are dropping, there' ; s no question. DONAHUE: As president of the temple, what was your focus or your goal? SHRABERG: Building the temple, trying to build our membership, bring in the young people. It' ; s a constant, constant struggle. Uh, you know, my wife is a little younger than I am, I won' ; t tell you her age, she' ; s in her sixties. You walk into the, uh, temple service, most of the people there are in their fifties or sixties or older. You look at the executives, you know, the presidents and the boards, they' ; re all older people. You know, they try to get the young people engaged, and that goes back to the point that you can go out and have a great time, you can go to social events, you can be members of clubs, do everything you want, you don' ; t have--being Jewish means nothing anymore. So that' ; s part of it, but then it' ; s partly just a lack of passion and interest that so many of these young people have, or time. So it' ; s an ongoing struggle. Uh, right now in Lexington, I can tell you that there' ; s even a--trying to merge the temple and synagogue into one building for cost and sort of have the congregations maybe, the religious schools merge because the numbers are so small of the children. There' ; s all these attempts to do this, because the sheer numbers, you know, and there' ; s more power in mass numbers, and we have such small numbers. Theoretically, I think there' ; s 500 families in Lexington, but that' ; s very much a misleading figure. Every family is just one member, and a lot of families are people in their sixties, seventies, and eighties, widows or widowers or couples. We' ; re not talking about vibrant families of, you know, nuclear families. So probably if you look at that group, there' ; s maybe 100, 200 families left. [unrelated material, not transcribed] DONAHUE: Okay, so you said that your children--none of them live in Lexington now? SHRABERG: I have one daughter that lives in Lexington, she' ; s married, and, uh, they have no children yet, so yes, so that' ; s really nice, a blessing. And then I have two stepchildren that live near us, one in Richmond and one in, uh, uh Frankfort. So I have--and I consider them like my children too. DONAHUE: Do you have grandchildren? SHRABERG: Yes, I have, uh, one granddaughter in, uh, California. This is so funny. You know, we used--I' ; m a David, which means beloved in Hebrew, and, you know, Jewish names are now, again, the assimilation--her name is Harper, which is hardly a Jewish name. And, uh, she' ; s got a boy, knock on wood, this week she' ; ll have a C-section and a son' ; s being born, so they' ; ll have a son, who' ; s going to be called Fletcher, which is not a Jewish name, but hey, we' ; ll love Fletcher. And then I have a daughter in New Orleans, who is Claire, she' ; s twelve. So I have three grandchildren, and my wife has, uh, three as well. And theirs, uh--they' ; re all, uh, Cara, Justin, and Nick. DONAHUE: So you mentioned earlier about, uh, how--about Zionism and Israel and how that became important to you when you were in college, and it sounds like Zionism is still important to you. SHRABERG: Yes, it' ; s very important to me. I' ; m probably, uh, more on the extreme of Zionism, although certainly I do have a great deal of understanding and sympathy for the Palestinian people. I think they have a right to have a country. Uh, I think my Zionism springs from sort of a reaction to the Holocaust and that I feel it' ; s so important that Jews stand up for themselves. And that is a great driver of tearing apart a lot of the Jewish communities even in Lexington, because, uh, Jews are very much people of the book and of justice, so there' ; s a lot of mixed feelings about how Zionistic you can be. And maybe because I grew up in a small town, where I felt more akin to both anti-Semitism and the need for Jewish pride, that I' ; m as Zionist as I am. Uh, I will say that I certainly understand the other side. One of the wonderful things that I' ; m enjoying working at UK now is many of my resident students are from all over the world, from Pakistan, Afghanistan, you know, and I get a rich feeling of humanity, that they' ; re all human beings, that we' ; re all basically a byproduct of--if we can learn to think for ourselves. But I am, you know, I' ; m still very much a Zionist, I very much feel like the Jewish people need one safe place. And I suppose that' ; s just me, it' ; s a derivative of my childhood that I feel that, you know--I guess, you know, I think it' ; s--I mean, you might call it a trauma, but it would' ; ve been nice to grow up somewhere where being Jewish means that every holiday is a national holiday, and you can join any club you want, at least your religion' ; s not going to exclude you. I mean, people are so petty, probably there are some issues of pedigree, but being Jewish per se wouldn' ; t do it. So I think maybe it' ; s nice to have one place in the world where you can be Jewish and be a majority and you don' ; t have to worry about all these little things that happened when I was growing up. The counter-argument is, the world can change, people can change, but after the Holocaust and what happened, maybe it' ; s my generation--I' ; m the last, you know, generation who was kind of born after World War II when all this happened. I don' ; t know what the future is, but yeah, it did shape my Zionism, which is probably a little stronger than somebody with my education would be. But I' ; m not intolerant, and I understand the other side of the argument. But I am very much, I really feel strongly that there should be a Jewish state. Not Israel as much as a Jewish state, which happens to be Israel. DONAHUE: And you mentioned that there' ; s been some contention within the Jewish community in Lexington about that. Can you describe how that' ; s--give some examples of how that' ; s been expressed? SHRABERG: Yeah. We' ; ve had different rabbis. The, the orthodox movement tends to steer away so much from political issues to mostly more holiness issues. The reform movement is much more into social justice and repairing the world. So you see where repairing the world means that there are bad things happening in Israel, positions of Israel that are not justice, that they' ; re going to criticize. So most of the reform rabbis are much less Zionist and more into human rights and human justice. So you can see where there' ; s some conflict. Now, for example, in our temple, a number of our Jews came from Morocco, Persia, or Iran, where they experienced terrible things, and so they tend to be angry, or more, uh, passion, if the rabbi tends to dumb down--for example, uh, when they had that, uh, the last little upsurge of that belligerence they had in the Middle East, the Gaza war, when, if you remember, the three Jewish boys were killed first, and then the Jews burned up this poor Arab kid in Jerusalem. Well, a rabbi said, it' ; s terrible what happened to the Jewish boys, but it' ; s terrible what happened to the Arab boy. Well, some of these people, Jewish members from the Middle East, may agree with that, but then they say, I think the rabbi is leaning too much towards the Arab side, not enough towards the Jewish side. So there' ; s this divide, and, and, you know, some of our members are Israel right or wrong, a lot of our members are rights more important than Israel than anything else, we have to be right, we have to be just. So there is this line, and reform rabbis tend to be, uh, much less Zionist and much more into tikkun olam, as it' ; s called, or repair the world, and that Israel has to respect human rights, and when they' ; re wrong we should condemn them. Now, every rabbi will, but you can see where there' ; s sort of how much you' ; re pro Israel versus not depends on each member and their experiences. The members who came from the Middle East and had terrible experiences maybe tend to be a little less, uh, enthused about this even-handedness that most of the reform rabbis do. The orthodox rabbis are not so much into Zionism, they' ; re more into the religion and keeping the rituals pure. It' ; s more the reform movement that you get into these, you might say there' ; s a little bit of a tension there, uh, and the rabbis tend to be more on the issue of what one would say human rights and fairness, versus the members may have their own opinions, some of which are far more to the right, you might say. It varies from person to person. So there is that tension in the reform community. DONAHUE: So often at one of the social gatherings after the service, would people be discussing these issues? SHRABERG: Well, the people that are--the political issues tend to be very carefully orchestrated. For example, we just went through Yom Ha' ; azmaut, uh, this Sunday at our temple, and both congregations get together, it' ; s Israeli Independence Day. Uh, it' ; ll be very superficial, there will not be political discussions--(laughs)--because there is a great divide, uh, you know, and I think that' ; s one of--you know, Jews in America are Americans first, so as Americans people have all different positions and there' ; s no, you know, it' ; s a nice part of what we as Jews are, we' ; re varied (??), so there' ; s, you know, nobody' ; s going to send out a group of, you know, bullies to beat you up if you say, I think Israel is wrong, or a group of bullies to say I think Israel right or wrong. But, uh, there is a tendency for people to sort of cluster together who may be very, very pro-Israel right or wrong, versus the ones who are kind of anti-Israel, and the rabbi is sort of kept out of it. The rabbi stays out of the politics pretty much, because if he does, he' ; s going to--one side or the other is going to be unhappy with him. That' ; s my opinion. Now, somebody might disagree with me, but I think you' ; re going to find that most Jews are going to say that, that there' ; s a--the Jewish--Israel has changed a lot in the mind of American Jews since--I think generally we all support Israel, that the Jews need a homeland and a state, but we also, uh, Jews more and more want to see the world in peace, they don' ; t want to see, you know--right now it' ; s not such a big issue, because so much happening in the Middle East has little to do with Israel, but Israel is still there. They have to part of the whole community, the world community. DONAHUE: Right. What' ; s your experience been of the relationships between the members of Ohavay Zion and Temple Adath Israel? SHRABERG: It' ; s still interesting. Uh, there' ; s always been--some of it' ; s human nature, some of it' ; s cultural. The typical small Southern town where you had the German Jews come earlier, and they looked down on the other Jews. The German Jews found the temple, the reform movement, uh, the old-timers, and you had the Russians and the others. But now the orthodox and conservative like to think of themselves as more Jewish, because they know more ritual, they observe more, versus the reform people, who they think are just, you know, make-believe Jews or Christian Jews almost. So there' ; s that side of it, but there' ; s also a tendency, as all these old families are dying out now on both sides, who had this divide, there' ; s a push towards trying to merge these communities because of sheer numbers. I don' ; t know if it' ; ll happen, though. But yeah, there is a tendency to try to merge us. It' ; s kind of like Southern Baptist versus Northern Baptist. What' ; s the difference? I mean, it all started with the Civil War, you know, and slavery. But now, that' ; s all gone, so they' ; re merging. Why can' ; t we all be just Jews together and sort of have a middle ground where we all--we' ; re the same religion, really. It' ; s kind of wild to have--but it' ; s still there, and it' ; s much more dramatic in a town like Lexington, where people wonder why is there a synagogue and a temple? What is the difference? Why do you have two Jewish, you know--and ours had nothing to do with, you know, the Civil War or anything, or anything, it' ; s just, uh, two groups of people, two settlements, and the reform movement was very much a--it started with the German enlightenment, but in this country it' ; s flowered, because all these German Jews settled in Cincinnati, which is right near Lexington, so we' ; re really in the orb of the reform movement still, just by that virtue. So, I would love to see us merge, I' ; d love to see us one people, one congregation. I think there' ; s strength in numbers, especially as we dwindle. But who knows what' ; ll happen, it' ; s human nature. DONAHUE: What about other Jewish community groups, like the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass? Have you had any involvement with them? SHRABERG: My wife and I do give to that. My wife has been on the board, before she became president. I' ; ve been involved with the Federation--I' ; ve been a member of the temple and synagogue, too, over the years, by the way, so I' ; ve done both. Uh, yeah, I think that there again, uh, our resources are so stretched that it' ; s hard to do it all, but there is--the Jewish Federation is supposed to be a way of bringing all the Jews of the bluegrass together, so, uh--and there' ; s other organizations, so, uh, there' ; s Hadassah, which supports Hadassah Hospital in Israel, it' ; s a women' ; s organization, my wife' ; s a member of that. So there' ; s several volunteer organizations. These organizations, like Hadassah and Jewish Federation, again, were much stronger when your only social outlet was being part of the Jewish community. When you have kids playing soccer, you have all these other activities, UK sports and athletics, it' ; s hard to get people to attend functions to support all these in this community now, because we' ; re so assimilated. DONAHUE: Did your kids attend any of their functions while they were growing up? SHRABERG: My kids were involved in youth group and they did attend some camps, Jewish camps, so they had some involvement. Uh, probably not as much as I wished, but they made friends from some of their camps that they' ; ve kept over the years, so I' ; m happy about that, and these were Jewish friends, from all over the country, all over the region, which is nice. I mean, Lexington and Louisville are the main Jewish communities, there are little peripheral communities in Paducah and elsewhere, but yeah, I mean, it' ; s good to know Jews in other states and parts of the country, so that' ; s been a good thing about some of the camps that they' ; ve gone to, youth camps. DONAHUE: So looking back, what, if anything, would you change about your relationship with Judaism? SHRABERG: Uh, I probably, retrospectively, wish I' ; d been, and I guess maybe I' ; m starting to show my age, I' ; m sixty-nine now, I wish I' ; d have been maybe more strongly identified myself as Jewish with my kids, and maybe, you know, I--unfortunately I' ; m also a byproduct of the great assimilation, and even though my childhood was fashioned by this, you know, as I' ; ve gotten older in America I' ; m part of what' ; s happening in our culture, where we' ; re diversified, we' ; re assimilated. I wish I' ; d had had strong--I want my children to be Jewish. I just fear the disappearance of the Jewish people, and, you know, people say, well, what did you do? And if I say, well, you know, they all got bar mitzvahed. Is that all, bar mitzvahed? Well, I didn' ; t stand up to them when they wanted to marry outside the faith, I didn' ; t enforce them and encourage them to marry a Jewish boy or girl. I really didn' ; t, because I felt that' ; s almost like a gentile saying you have to marry a Christian, not a Jew, or something, you know. It just sounded--I wish there was some way, and maybe I' ; m hoping that--I wish I could' ; ve done more, I guess, to reinforce the Jewish identity in my children, but, you know, I did the best I could. But I think if you ask what I wish I' ; d have done more--but, you know, like everybody in this society, between your job and demands, and unfortunately the temptations of social life, I was probably not as observant a Jew as I wished I could' ; ve been. And you know, it' ; s sad, because I' ; m like so many people of my generation, as you get older, then you become more observant, for yourself, but your children have grown now, they don' ; t--they' ; re not going to be influenced by--if I go to temple, which I try to go two or three times a month now, they don' ; t see that. When they were growing up I would go when they had to go, but I didn' ; t necessarily go because I wanted to go. DONAHUE: So I' ; m going to ask you a question that' ; s probably impossible to answer, but what' ; s the core of that Jewish identity for you? Is it religious? Is it cultural? Is it about history? SHRABERG: Boy, that' ; s a tough question, it is. You know, and I' ; ve thought this over my whole life, you know. As I said early on, growing up in Lexington gave me--I was Jewish by default, I was forced to be Jewish, because I didn' ; t have a choice. So I can' ; t be proud of that. You know, I think that what makes--and this is--I hate to sound chauvinistic. To me, I' ; m a student of history, the idea that I have DNA in me that goes back thousands of years and that' ; s in the history books, to think that I' ; m part of the longest surviving ethnic group in the world, and that we produced this belief, this monotheism, and this text that certainly our society, you know, observes, you know, we' ; re still a Judeo-Christian society, that gives me great pride, yeah. I like that belonging. I' ; m embarrassed because I haven' ; t been a better Jew, but I love the thought of having that--the very thing the Nazis tried to kill us over is the very thing that I' ; m so proud of, you know, that we' ; ve been able to carry on for thousands of years. Nobody else has been able to do that, you know. And by hook or crook, we' ; ve done it. You know, I don' ; t think intermarriage in any way ruined us. I' ; m convinced that if we hadn' ; t intermarried, we' ; d have died out thousands of years ago. But we' ; ve kept the idea alive, you know. I was always proud--the term I loved in school, and I know it' ; s not politically correct now, but as a Jew, even when I was starting, I guess, junior high school, when they said, we are a Judeo-Christian society--we don' ; t say that anymore, I know, but for a Jew who grew up in Lexington, it was such a nice thing to say. Oh, I' ; m part of this great nation, Judeo-Christian, you know. And when I, you know--the old days, when you went to university, you had to learn--it was either Hebrew and/or Greek or Latin, but you had to learn Hebrew, because you had to read Bible. So I love being part of that, those people, that root. I don' ; t care how many Jewish doctors there are or how many--what the average, you know, I don' ; t think it' ; s--I think it' ; s a myth how rich the Jew is or what Jew is that. I mean, that' ; s nice, to know somebody is Jewish or somebody is not Jewish, you know, like--there' ; s so many famous people that were--Einstein was Jewish. That' ; s great. That' ; s not as important to me as to be part of that just long line. I don' ; t care if you' ; re the humblest, poorest Jew, to be part of that tradition that goes back thousands of years, you know, when people read about Moses and Abraham, they' ; re reading about my people. I mean, I have--I did that 23 and Me thing, and my DNA goes back thousands of years, I still have that DNA in me, and that makes me feel kind of cool. It' ; s kind of a neat thing. I' ; m not bragging, but it' ; s just, it' ; s a message that you carry a good ideal on, you should maintain the ideal, because the basic ideals of Judaism are very much like Christianity, you know. Charity, treat your neighbor like yourself, have a belief in justice. The God thing is different, we have our different versions of God, but that' ; s not the core of Judaism. So that part I' ; m really, yeah, but always a tough question, what makes--yeah. The selfish parts I try to avoid, like Einstein was a Jew, Freud was Jew. I mean, there are famous--just as many famous Christians as Jews as Buddhists, but that part, that we were able to maintain that, nobody else has done that, nobody. So that' ; s kind of cool. And we' ; ve survived. Even though we were a little shtetl group of Jews here, you know, we--if you look at me, you realize that, you know, way, way, way back there was Abraham and Moses, they' ; re all my people. So that' ; s kind of cool. Here I am in Lexington. So that part' ; s neat. I like that part. That' ; s the part--and that' ; s why I worry about what' ; ll be here 100 years. Are we going to just be like in the zoo, like part of the panda population? That was a Jew, that' ; s what they looked like. I hope not. DONAHUE: Is there anything else that you' ; d like to say that I haven' ; t asked you about? SHRABERG: No, but thank you for making me think. I' ; m a big talker, so I' ; d better shut up. I enjoyed it, and I' ; m sorry for keeping you late. DONAHUE: No, it was--thank you so much for coming in. It' ; s very interesting, and we really appreciate it. SHRABERG: My pleasure. Thanks. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh053_jk019_shraberg.xml 2016oh053_jk019_shraberg.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh053_jk019_shraberg.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Title
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David Shraberg, April 18, 2016
Description
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David Shraberg describes his family's immigration from Lithuania to Somerset in 1900 and how his grandfather worked as a peddler to bring his bride-to-be over from Lithuania. His family eventually moved to Lexington in order to be part of a larger Jewish community. He discusses his grandfather's establishment of a scrapyard on Manchester Street. Shraberg's father took over the family scrap business when his father fell ill with Hodgkin's disease. Working in the scrapyard as a child gave Shraberg insight into human behavior, eventually leading him to a career in neurology.
Although he enjoyed attending services at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg discusses the difficulties that existed while he was growing up in maintaining a Jewish identity in a smaller Jewish community, such as having to miss school to attend High Holiday services. Shraberg discusses the anti-Semitism he experienced while growing up in Lexington. He remembers seeing racism against African-Americans in Lexington during the 1950s and 1960s.
While attending the University of Kentucky, Shraberg rushed for Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) and became aware of the rampant anti-Semitism and racism in Greek life on campus. The incidents would range from comments and slurs to refusing Jews into fraternities. He also discusses the political tensions, ranging from the Civil Rights Movement to demonstrations against the Vietnam War on the University of Kentucky's campus during the 1970s.
Shraberg discusses the choice to raise his family in Lexington and the meaning of Judaism and the Jewish community across the generations. While a leader at Temple Adath Israel, Shraberg wrestled with the problem of dwindling temple membership due to intermarriage and acculturation, and an aging congregation. He served as Temple president from 2006 to 2008. The issue of human rights in Israel is a contentious issue within the Temple Adath Israel congregation because Reform Judaism tends to be more politically active in social justice issues. As a result, Temple leadership is very careful about how certain events are executed and tend to avoid politics altogether.
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2016oh053_jk019_shraberg
Subject
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Judaism.
Religion
Jewish children
Jewish families.
Lexington (Ky.)
Discrimination.
Jews--Identity.
Anti-Semitism
University of Kentucky
Childhood
Race discrimination--Kentucky
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Format
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video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/e4ed9de72267c4e521735cecb2f1d3bb.jpeg
6b8e69b53e49ac57d5b1418a96e7ae54
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Sandy Levy
Interview Keyword
Jews--Identity.
Jewish children
Worship (Judaism)
Religion
Discrimination.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2016oh049_jk017 Interview with Sandy Levy, April 11, 2016 2016oh049_jk017 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Lexington (Ky.) Traditional farming Family farms. Livestock. Family histories. Jews--Identity. Jewish children Worship (Judaism) Religion Discrimination. Sandy Levy Janice Crane 1:|14(12)|30(17)|63(11)|85(13)|98(10)|110(8)|119(9)|146(1)|166(6)|188(9)|197(7)|219(11)|233(13)|245(4)|258(2)|266(13)|279(1)|293(9)|305(5)|343(1)|350(10)|369(8)|382(3)|395(8)|411(4)|432(16)|445(3)|456(4)|465(5)|475(14)|501(10)|511(1)|525(4)|535(11)|544(9)|551(13)|570(6)|584(8)|593(6)|615(7)|626(7)|637(10)|652(13)|661(11)|675(3)|690(11)|704(8)|730(3)|745(3)|759(8)|776(3)|790(13)|801(13)|819(3)|839(13)|857(12)|871(13)|885(1)|895(12)|910(2)|919(10)|927(15)|937(4)|949(7)|966(8)|975(8)|986(3)|1001(11)|1012(9) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253326280" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 1 Introduction / Levy's family background For official purposes, today is April the 11th, 2016. And my name is Janice Crane and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Sanford (Sandy) Elliot Levy was born in Lexington, Kentucky at Good Samaritan Hospital. His grandparents, Joe and Jennie Levy were part of a wave of Jewish immigration from a shtetl in present-day Lithuania named Pushelat that was a result of the Bolshevik Revolution. Sandy has one brother, Paul Levy, who is one of the authors of " ; The Original Foodie Handbook" ; and several other books on a group of English intellectuals known as the Bloomsbury Circle. He also wrote a book about Lexington Jewish history entitled " ; Finger Lickin' Good: A Kentucky Childhood." ; Sandy also names his wives, children, and grandchildren. " ; Finger Lickin' Good: A Kentucky Childhood" ; ; " ; The Original Foodie Handbook" ; ; Ann Barr ; Arcadia Park ; Bloomsbury Circle ; Bolshevik Revolution ; Christian Harmon ; Colleen Levy ; Dana Gregory ; Darien (Conn.) ; G.E. Moore ; Good Samaritan Hospital on Harrison Avenue ; Hermain (Tenn.) ; Hyman Solomon Levy ; Jennie Herman ; Jennifer (Levy) Harmon ; Joe Levy ; Joe Miller ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Lytton Strachey ; Megan Levy ; Miranda Harmon ; Paul Levy ; Pushelat (Lithuania) ; Sanford Elliot Levy ; Scott Levy ; Shirley Betty Singer ; Shtetl ; Tommy Levy Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. 38.0422416, -84.50068820000001 17 Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky http://www.paullevy.com/paullevy.htm A website about Sandy's brother Paul Levy. 539 Levy family farming business Okay. Before we get into your parents' occupation and/or yours, let's talk some about the work that your paternal grandfather Joe Levy did, since he was both in the dry goods business and in the farming business. Levy's grandfather, Herman Levy, partially owned a retail clothing store on Upper Street, in Lexington, Kentucky, He primarily owned farmland in the southern Lexington area where they grew tobacco, raised cattle, and did various other agricultural ventures. Athens Boonesboro ; Billy Golton ; Bob Oestreicher ; Cattle farms ; Cleveland Road ; Dry goods ; Fred Basler ; Harry Goller ; Jennie Kraus ; Jerry Moskovitz ; Joe Levy ; Joe Miller ; Kosher butchers ; Levi Jeans ; Marvin Kraus ; Max Kraus ; Michael Oestreicher ; Mike Oestreicher ; Pushcarts ; Richmond Road ; Rosenberg's (jewelry store) ; Ruthie Oestriecher ; Sam Herman ; Tobacco farms ; Tobacco subsidization ; Winchester (Ky.) Entrepreneurship ; Family farms. ; Farm life. ; Food animals. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Livestock. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Traditional farming 37.9493719, -84.36442899999997 17 Approximate Location of the Farms that Joe Levy Owned http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt7qrf5kb01p/data/96pa103_167/96pa103_167.pdf Joe Levy's retail clothing store on Upper Street 1385 The Levy family and Welgo Traders Okay. At what point in time did your family go from the cattle business to the retail business and how did this trans, transition take place? Levy's father began the shoe department at Meyers' store in downtown Lexington, Kentucky and eventually became one of the founders of the Welgo Traders in 1951, one of the largest retail clothing stores in Lexington, Kentucky for much of the 20th century. After Welgo Traders closed as a result of other department stores moving into the area, Sandy Levy moved into the real estate business. He also discusses the relationship he had with the owners of Mr. Wigg's department stores. Breckinridge School ; David Weil ; Hoskell Goldberg ; Joe Miller ; Meyer's ; Old Kentucky Chocolates ; S. Broadway ; Southland Drive ; Sterling Radio ; University of Kentucky ; Vivian Weil ; Welgo ; Winchester Road Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.041537, -84.46705099999997 17 Original location of Welgo Traders http://i.imgur.com/2wToZzk.jpg Mr. Wigg's Department Store 2414 Levy's Jewish upbringing Um, how would you describe your parents', your mother, and your father's relationship to Judaism? Levy's father was very religious and would oftentimes substitute and lead Jewish services for the rabbi in Lexington, Kentucky at Ohavay Zion Synagogue. Levy was never very religious and his ex-wife Luann was the first woman to receive a bat mitzvah at Temple Adath Israel. He reflects on sitting in religious services at the synagogue as a child, attending Sunday school at the Temple, and dealing with anti-Semitism while in elementary school. He attended Lafayette High School, was a member of the local Jewish youth group and attended Jewish summer camp at Camp GUCI in Zionsville, Indiana. Afikomen ; Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Douglas High School ; Eight Degrees of Charity ; Joe Levy ; Jonah Jacobs ; Kenwick Elementary School ; Lafayette High School ; Maimonides ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; Passover Seder ; Paul Laurence Dunbar High School ; Rabbi Joe Rosenbloom ; Rabbi Robert A. Rothman ; Rabbis ; Sam Herman ; Singer family ; Temple Adath Israel ; Will Dunn ; Women and Judaism ; Yom Kippur ; Zionsville (Ind.) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 39.92304300000001, -86.28361699999999 17 Goldman Union Camp Institute (GUCI) in Zionsville, Indiana. 3001 Levy's college life and adult Jewish life I know that your first college experience began at Miami of Ohio. Levy attended Miami University in Ohio briefly before transferring to the University of Kentucky. He dropped out of college after his junior year but while he was in school he played all night poker games with his friends where he made enough money to build his first house. He wasn't involved in any student organizations while he was a student and his Judaism had little impact on his college life. He married his long-time girlfriend Luann at the age of 21. They sent their children to Sunday school per the request of his father, but because of their lack of interest in Judaism the kids never became very religious. Sandy also discusses some of their family friends that were Jewish, and their affiliation with the Lexington Jewish community. English major ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; Harriet Ades ; Hillel ; Linden Walk (Lexington) ; Lou Ann Levy ; Lowenthal Family ; Marc Kline ; Miami (OH) University ; Mike Ades ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Phi Gamma Delta (Fiji) ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Chicago ; University of Kentucky ; Winniker Family College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. 38.037093, -84.49896580000001 17 Linden Walk, Lexington, Kentucky http://images.universityherald.com/data/images/full/1238/miami-university-ohio.jpg?w=600 Miami University (Ohio) 3543 Levy's business ventures / Jewish life reflections Um, what work do you do or did you do that we haven't already talked about? Levy had numerous business ventures throughout his life. He opened up a group of department stores called The Better Half that sold uniquely sized women's clothing. He also was one of the co-founders of FastCare which later became Kroger's The Little Clinic. He reflects on his views of the Jewish religion before discussing his step-father Arthur " ; Babe" ; Meyers. Arthur " ; Babe" ; Meyers ; Bob Stevens ; Chevy Chase (Lexington, Ky.) ; Dave Greenwald ; FastCare ; Florence Mall ; Joseph A Banks (store) ; Kenwood (Cincinnati, Ohio) ; Kroger ; Lexington Mall ; McAlpin's ; Quaker Oats ; Stuart Lowenthal ; The Better Half (store) ; The Lexington Herald Leader ; The Little Clinic ; Yarmulkes Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 interview Sanford (Sandy) Elliot Levy was born in Lexington, Kentucky. His grandparents, Joe and Jennie Levy were part of a wave of Jewish immigration from a shtetl in present-day Lithuania named Pushelat that was a result of the Bolshevik Revolution. Levy's grandfather, Herman Levy, partially owned a retail clothing store on Upper Street, in Lexington, Kentucky, He also owned farmland in the southern Lexington area where they grew tobacco, raised cattle, and did various other agricultural ventures. Levy's father began the shoe department at Meyers' store in downtown Lexington, Kentucky and eventually became one of the founders of the Welgo Traders in 1951, one of the largest retail clothing stores in Lexington, Kentucky. Levy himself had numerous business ventures throughout his life. Levy's father was very religious and would oftentimes substitute and lead Jewish services for the rabbi in Lexington, Kentucky at Ohavay Zion Synagogue. He reflects on sitting in religious services at the synagogue as a child, attending Sunday school at the Temple, and dealing with anti-Semitism while in elementary school. He wasn't involved in any student organizations while he was a student and his Judaism had little impact on his college life. CRANE: For official purposes, today is April the 11th, 2016. And my name is Janice Crane and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I' ; m honored to be here today with Sandy Levy. Sandy and I are actually cousins. His grandfather was my great uncle and although we share some family history, I suspect that our experience and memories are quite different. In fact, I' ; m looking forward to having Sandy fill in some holes for me as he shares his stories for others to hear. So let' ; s begin. Since I know that Sandy' ; s not your real name, for the record, what is your full name and when and where were you born? LEVY: Sanford Elliot Levy. I was born, uh, uh, in Lexington at Good Samaritan Hospital. CRANE: Okay. And I also know that neither of your parents are alive, but again for the record, what were their names and where were they from? LEVY: Um, my mother' ; s name was Shirley Betty Singer before marrying my father, Hyman Solomon Levy. Mom was from Cleveland. Uh, Dad was born in Lexington. CRANE: Okay. Since both your paternal grandfather and grandmother were part of larger Jewish families and immigrated to this area, tell us their names and where they were from. LEVY: Uh, Joe Levy, my grandfather, and, uh, to my knowledge, my grandmother, uh, whose, I guess, Americanized name was Jennie, uh, uh, was a Herman. And uh, I believe she was also from the same area in Lithuania, Pushelat. CRANE: Okay. Did your parents' ; and your grandparents' ; names change when they came to America? LEVY: Uh, as far as I know, on the, uh, Levy side, I believe it was, uh, Leggan or something like that. CRANE: Ligum. LEVY: Ligum. Sorry. And then Americanized to Levy. Um, my grandmother' ; s side, uh, it was, I believe, [Baron?]. That was the story I was always told, and again changed to Herman to Americanize it. CRANE: Hm. I once heard a story, um, that they were supposed to go to some place in Tennessee named-- LEVY: Her-- CRANE: --Hermain, Tennessee. LEVY: Right. I heard it was called Harriman, but perhaps. CRANE: Oh. Oh, I see. Harriman. LEVY: Yeah, and, uh. CRANE: Harriman, Tennessee-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --and that' ; s when they changed it. LEVY: Yep. CRANE: Did your parents and your grandparents, um, tell you much about Pushelat? LEVY: Honestly, I have very recollection, uh, of any stories, uh, either of them might have told me. Really, I think most information that I' ; ve gotten came from cousins of mine who did the research, Joe Miller being one them who really had great interest in it. CRANE: I' ; ve heard that your grandfather, my great uncle Joe Levy, was the first of the Ligum-Levy family that came here from Pushelat. It was the shtetl in Lithuania and they came around the Bolshevik Revolution. LEVY: That' ; s the story-- CRANE: Okay. LEVY: --I had heard. CRANE: What do you know about how they and so many others from Pushelat came to this area? Why Lexington? LEVY: Uh, honestly I, I really don' ; t know why. Uh, you know, in my later years, I' ; ve come to look at it as possibly being just nothing more than a wives tale. I can' ; t believe that half the community came from the same, uh, same tiny shtetl. Uh, I really don' ; t have any information on that issue. CRANE: I know you have a brother. Uh, what is his name and age related to you? LEVY: Uh, my brother Paul Levy, uh, is, uh, three years my senior. Uh, he' ; s lived in, uh, England, uh, in the Oxfordshire area for perhaps 50 odd years at this point. CRANE: Um, I know that, um, he' ; s quite well known in his area of expertise. And if you could share just a little bit about that, um, I' ; ve heard he was the original foodie? LEVY: Uh, in fact, in 1984, he and Ann Barr collaborated on, uh, I believe it was called The Original [sic] Foodie Handbook, uh, and they made the tiny error of not copywriting the name foodie, the word foodie, and consequently it' ; s now used generically. Uh, Paul' ; s written, uh, many books, uh, relative to, uh, cooking, including, by the way, some on Kentucky cooking, which is kind of interesting. And his primary, uh, field is, uh, uh, that of, uh, the Bloomsbury circle. Uh, he' ; s written books on Lytton Strachey, uh, G.E. Moore, and several others, uh, of the Bloomsbury circle. CRANE: I know that among Paul' ; s many journalistic pieces, he wrote a book about Lexington Jewish history. If you would, could you share with us just a very brief overview of that book and what might have prompted him to write it? LEVY: I suspect Paul considers this to be his autobiography, uh, of his youth in Lexington. Uh, it, it' ; s really very interesting because, uh, uh, reading the book the first time, uh, uh, I was--I thought the contrast in his view and mine, uh, were really, uh, startling. Uh, uh, I was always a really active kid, uh, probably one who should have been on Ritalin if they had it at the time, and I remember living on Arcadia Park, uh, North Arcadia. And between North and South Arcadia, we had this wonderful triangular piece of land and all the kids, uh, would have carnivals, and we' ; d play baseball, and football, and all sorts of sports, and my memories of that time of my youth, uh, were it was maybe one of the happiest times of my life. I had a great time, loved all those kids, loved the parents in the neighborhood. Paul, on the other hand, wrote about growing up on this street filled with ruffians, uh, and what a horrible time it was, and, uh, he was very, uh, surprised that he was able to escape the area. CRANE: Wow. LEVY: Uh, kind of the difference, I guess, between two bothers. CRANE: That' ; s pretty interesting. Maybe you were one of the ruffians, huh? LEVY: I suspect I was. Still am. CRANE: (laughs) LEVY: I hate to brag. (laughs) CRANE: Once upon a time, I know that you were married to Lou Ann Cassell-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --who' ; s also from the Lexington Jewish community, who grew up with her many sisters in the pink house, now yellow, on South Hanover. And I know you and Lou Ann had children, so what are your children' ; s names and the names of your grandchildren? LEVY: Uh, uh, we have two children, uh, uh, Jennifer is the eldest. Uh, uh, she married, uh, Shawn Harmon. They have two children, uh, Miranda, who' ; s seventeen and off to college this next year, and Christian, who is thirteen. Uh, Scott, our youngest, uh, married, uh, Colleen, uh--oh, that' ; s terrible, I can' ; t remember her maiden name. Uh, but they have two children, uh, Tommy, thirteen, Megan, who is nine now. CRANE: Wow. Um, I also know that you we--you were remarried, but, um, don' ; t recall her name. What was the name of your second wife and where was she from? LEVY: Uh, Dana Gregory, uh, was actually her married name, uh, from her first husband, uh, and she was originally from--let' ; s see, it' ; s in New Jersey. Uh, Derry, Darien, I believe, New--uh, Darien, Connecticut, I' ; m sorry. Is that right, Connecticut? New Jersey? One or the other, I can' ; t remember. CRANE: Up east. LEVY: Hm? Up east. CRANE: Up east. LEVY: Definitely. CRANE: Okay. Before we get into your parents' ; occupation and or yours, let' ; s talk some about the work that your paternal grandfather Joe Levy did, since he was both in the dry goods business and in the farming business. I read an article that Joe Miller, who you mentioned just a little-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --bit ago, one of your cousins, um, that he did several years before he passed about his maternal grandfather, Sam Herman, also from the shtetl in Lithuania, and in the article he stated that his grandfather was in the dry goods business with his brother-in-law. And I' ; m thinking that was Joe Levy, your grandfather, since he was married to Sam' ; s sister, Yachna-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --or as some called Jennie. LEVY: Right. CRANE: Um, so what can you share about the Herman Levy business on Upper Street? LEVY: Uh, my--my recollection is that it had primarily work clothes, uh, probably Levi jeans, things of that ilk. Uh, very, very small store, uh, wooden floors, uh, it had wooden tables, uh, and basically, I viewed it as, uh, a place where my grandfather, I guess, would work part--partially, and then go out to the farms, uh, and I remember as a child, my grandfather would, uh, put me in the truck, and it would take about forty-five minutes, uh, to drive from that area downtown, uh, to the farms, which, uh, now, of course, are a straight shot. Richmond Road becomes Athens Boonesboro, which leads to one farm that' ; s currently, uh, at the intersection of I-seventy-five and, uh, Athens Boonesboro, and then going straight down Athens Boonesboro to the four-way stop where it intersects at Cleveland Road. And two more farms were, uh, uh--the first farm on the right on Cleveland Road behind the old Athens schoolhouse and church. Um, and he used to take me to the farm all the time. Uh, I really enjoyed it, uh, you know, my brother hated it, I loved it--(laughs)--so once again, the contrast. CRANE: What, um--what happened to the store on--the dry good store on Upper Street? LEVY: I-- CRANE: How did it get started? Do you know what they did when-- LEVY: --I-- CRANE: --they first-- LEVY: --I really-- CRANE: --came to America? LEVY: --don' ; t know how it started. The stories that I' ; ve heard, of course, were that, uh, my grandfather and I suspect his, uh, perhaps, cousins, in-laws, all had pushcarts, and, uh, were selling their wares off of the pushcart, and turned that into the store, the little purchase of, uh, farmland, et cetera, and, uh, that' ; s how they, uh--that' ; s how they began in America. CRANE: Do you recall any other relative stores in that area? LEVY: Uh, well, sure, you had Rosenberg' ; s, of course, uh, uh, which was close by. Phillip Gall' ; s across the street on--on Upper as well, um, and there were numerous stores up and down Main Street. There were, uh, ki--all owned by Jewish families, uh, generally, I think, in that--in that same area of time as a rule. CRANE: How did Joe Levy go from the dry goods business in downtown Lexington to the cattle business south of town? LEVY: Uh, again I am uncertain as to how--how this started. Uh, uh, one story that I recall, I' ; d heard from, uh, Joe, Joe Miller, was that, uh, the in-laws essentially traded farms. Uh, some had farmers near, uh, Winchester as I recall, uh, and somehow that' ; s how we ended up with the, uh, uh, Joe Levy Farms in Lexington. Uh, I really don' ; t know the voracity of any of those stories. CRANE: Who else was involved besides your grandfather in the farms? LEVY: Uh, well, of course, my father, uh, was involved, and, uh, you know, and after my grandfather, uh, really became ill, my father took over the maintenance of the farms. Uh, we always had, uh, a farm manager, uh, who lived on the premises, and, uh, he was really the person responsible, uh, for the day-to-day activity. CRANE: And what--what were the day-to-day activities on a cattle farm in Lexington--(laughs)--Kentucky? LEVY: Well, uh, it was not only, uh, as it were, running the cattle, but also, uh, growing the feed for the cattle, uh, corn and so forth. Uh, we grew tobacco as well, and, uh, as near as I could tell, that was probably an eight to ten hour a day job and, uh, likely seven days a week. CRANE: What happened to the cattle? LEVY: Uh, eventually, uh, and this was long after my father died and I was managing the farms, uh, uh, it reached the point that, uh, we had to make a decision on how to r--how to maintain the herd, uh, effectively, uh, uh, by the time we reached the third generation, and that would be me. Uh, as an example, my share of the farm was, I think, 13.5 percent. So we had ownership, uh, ranging from cousins in California, uh, to of course my brother in England, and, uh, everyone had an opinion, but the greatest opinion was how do we, uh, get more money out of this. Uh, so effectively we decided, uh, at a late point in time, that it was time to call the herd, uh, reduce, uh, some of the expenses, increase the income, and by that, really, uh, created, uh, I guess, an infusion of capital. Uh, combined with that, we had the issue of tobacco. Uh, uh, I for one wanted to eliminate the tobacco crop. Uh, tobacco was still being subsidized at that point, and, uh, I had a lot of resistance, uh, from some of the cousins because tobacco was a good cash crop, and also resistance from the, uh, tenant farmer, the manager, uh, in that he was--he considered himself a tobacco farmer and really was reluctant to look into, uh, uh, crops that could have been more profitable that might have required a few years of growth in order to create that profitability. CRANE: How many acres were these--where--there were three farms? LEVY: There were three farms, two of which, really, were the working farm. Uh, uh, the one on Athens Boonesboro, as I recall, was 225 acres. The larger farm on Cleveland Pike, uh, behind the old schoolhouse was probably in the 260 or seventy range. And then, uh, we had a thirty-five acre farm that was down the road and that was used primarily, uh, uh, occasionally just to, uh, run cattle, uh, for extra feed and so forth on occasion. CRANE: Were the cattle sold? LEVY: The cattle were eventually sold. We disbanded, uh--dispersed the, uh--the entire herd, it' ; s--at one point, uh, uh, when we knew that it was time to start selling the farms. Um, and prior to that, we' ; d really reduced ' ; em. Uh, when my grandfather was in charge, we started raising purebred, uh, cattle, which also required, uh, registering the cattle, and paying fees, and, uh, there was a determination during my father' ; s regime that this was an unnecessary expense, so, uh, they were no longer considered, you know, we no longer raised them as purebred cattle. CRANE: During the years that the farm was operated by your grandfather, um, there was also a local kosher butcher on Fourth and Upper Street named Harry Goller. Um, if there was one, describe the connection your gra--grandfather' ; s cattle farm had with the kosher butcher. Um, if any of the cattle that, um, Joe raised were sold as kosher meat, how did this happen? LEVY: To my knowledge, none was ever sold as kosher meat. Uh, I don' ; t believe Mr. Goller ever processed any meat in his store. Uh, uh, to my knowledge, uh, and again, you know, I was a kid going into that--that store, and, you know, the main--main thing I remember would be all the salamis--(laughs)--hanging from the ceiling, and, uh, uh, you know, I remember lots of chickens--(laughs)--but beyond that, I, uh, I doubt that anything was ever done. Uh, any cattle we ever slaughtered, uh, went to, uh, uh, a local butcher, and, uh, that was--those were few and far between. CRANE: So you didn' ; t actually slaught--you--the cattle, you sold to other people, to a slaughtering-- LEVY: Um, yeah, or they would go to market, uh. CRANE: Oh, I see. LEVY: Yeah, uh, and, yeah. Again, to produce income. CRANE: Um, in doing some research about your family, I noticed that Billy Golton, your dad' ; s--I hope I get this all right. Your dad' ; s sister Becky' ; s son, and Jerry Moskovitz, and his mom, Esther, who was also one of your dad' ; s-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --sisters, were listed as principals of the farm corporation. However, there were a few names that I' ; m not familiar with. One was Marvin-- LEVY: Kraus. CRANE: --Kraus? LEVY: Um-hm. CRANE: --and the other was Michael-- LEVY: Oestreicher. CRANE: --Oestreicher. Who are they and how are the connected with the-- LEVY: Uh-- CRANE: --farm? LEVY: Well, they are, uh, Jennie Kraus' ; offspring, or actually, uh, grand--uh, Marvin is the son, Mike Oestreicher is the son of, uh, oops--a senior moment--Ruthie. Ruthie was married to, uh, Bob Oestreicher, uh, who died very, very, young. Uh, they had three children. Mike was the eldest. He' ; s an attorney in Cincinnati currently. He has two sisters, uh, Terry and Nancy. Um, on the other side, Marvin Kraus, uh, is the offspring of Jennie and, uh, Max Kraus as well, and, uh, he had--sorry, where am I now? I' ; m with Marvin. Marvin and Ruthie, uh, each had, uh, children. Marvin has three children, all boys, and unless I' ; m mistaken, he' ; s got at least one rabbi in the bunch and perhaps two, or perhaps one is married to a rabbi, I' ; m uncertain of that. CRANE: And was Jennie-- LEVY: Jennie was the eldest, uh, of--of Joe and Jennie, or Yachna' ; s, offspring. Uh, it was Jennie, Rebecca, uh, Esther--I' ; m sorry, my father, and Esther was the baby. CRANE: I see. Okay. Um, share whatever you--some of your fondest memories of the farm that you can remember. LEVY: Well, that' ; s, uh--(laughs)-- CRANE: As a young boy, what did it look like? What do you remember? LEVY: Well, you know, the one thing that I definitely remember, of course, would be the cattle because, you know, just being a kid, I loved the cattle. Uh, lots of chickens running around all the time, you know, and I' ; m sure as a toddler, I was likely chasing all the chickens and so forth. Uh, but, uh, I can remember, uh, the story of the one, uh, bull, uh, who they kept separated, who they called Poor Boy. Uh, he was really a monstrous thing, and I don' ; t know, uh, uh, you know, exactly how many progeny he had, but, uh, I always wondered why they called him Poor Boy. And our tenant farmer, who' ; s name was, uh, Fred Basler,uh, educated me on that, uh, when I was probably six years old, uh, by saying, " ; Well, we call him Poor Boy because if you look underneath, Sandy, you' ; can see what--what he' ; s dragging on the ground." ; --(laughs)--and I looked down, and of course the poor bulls' ; testicles were always hitting the rocks and everything--(laughs)--and as he walked. Uh, you know, so that--I mean, I had some interesting, uh, memories--(laughs)--as a kid, and that' ; s certainly one of them at that age. CRANE: Um, that' ; s a pretty good story. LEVY: Oh, yeah. Ha. CRANE: Okay. At what point in time did your family go from the cattle business to the retail business and how did this trans--transition take place? LEVY: Well, the story that I heard, uh, as to my father, was that perhaps out of UK [University of Kentucky], he became perhaps a dairy farmer. Now I don' ; t have any recollection of any of that, nor do I recall any stories, uh, again, I may have attributed this to Joe Miller. Um, evidently, he was not successful, and, uh, he got into the retail business, uh, opening the shoe department at, uh, Meyers' ; in downtown Lexington. Uh, he leased that department for years and years, and, uh, from the point, uh--I guess he must have been successful enough in that business that that led to the opening of, uh, Welgo, uh, along with two other original partners, uh, in 1951. And Welgo, uh, was the first freestanding store not in the downtown area in Lexington. Uh, uh, evidently, uh, I gather, if given a choice, the downtown, uh, merchants probably would have preferred to lynch him at the--uh, because from the opening of the store, evidently, uh, uh, the sales went through the ceiling after about six months, and, uh, the store grew, and grew, over the years. CRANE: You have, um, a couple of photographs of what clearly looks like a very busy store. Could you-- LEVY: Oh, let' ; s see-- CRANE: --just share those? LEVY: --sure, uh, let' ; s see. Let' ; s start-- CRANE: And you can share the one of the-- LEVY: Well, let' ; s start-- CRANE: --the front store. LEVY: --yeah, let' ; s start with this. This picture is the first, uh, Welgo that was built, uh--I believed they open in, uh, either late October of early November of 1951. Uh, that was their first store and, uh, that store and as an example of how busy they were, this store is the Winchester Road store following one of its, uh, I believe three expansions. Uh, it went from approximately 5,000 square feet to eventually 34,500 square feet. CRANE: Wow. LEVY: Uh and-- CRANE: How much are those pants? LEVY: (laughs) The pants, uh, shown there are $1.50. Uh, I assume they were on sale and probably were regularly $1.99--(laughs)--if you can imagine. You can' ; t get a pair of socks for that today. Um, the next store that opened in, uh, I believe 1957, uh, was on the Southland Drive, and this is the store. It' ; s currently, uh, occupied by Old Kentucky Chocolates. Uh, to give you an idea of how much business we did, uh, this is a picture-- CRANE: Geez. LEVY: --one of the pictures during the opening. But to give you an idea, the side parking lot, uh, was almost always filled, especially on the weekends. Uh, the owner of Old Kentucky Chocolates has added a two-story building in the old parking lot because he didn' ; t need the excess parking--(laughs)--if you can imagine. Um, here' ; s another picture I believe that would also be on Southland Drive, uh, don' ; t know the exact vintage, but I notice there is some dresses on sale for $15--(laughs)--um, and I can' ; t tell now--can' ; t tell if they' ; re brand name or not. But, uh, they were always busy until, uh, the discount stores arrived in Lexington in the sixties. CRANE: Can you share what made those, um, those stores special, um, and how they were different from other retail stores besides their location? LEVY: Uh, I think the--the one thing that they did originally is, uh, my--my father, I guess, was really the merchant, uh, of the three partners. One partner sold out pretty quickly, uh, and that--his name was Hoskell Goldberg by the way. Hoskell had, uh, Sterling--I think it was called Sterling Radio and something on South Broadway originally. Uh, David Weil and his wife Vivian. Uh, David was an, uh, attorney. His wife Vivian is still alive. And Vivian, uh, became one of the merchandisers as well, um, and she was very active in the business along with my dad. Uh, one of the things that they did that I thought was very unique is they tried to learn about quality of merchandise. Uh, originally, what they discovered was that a lot of the so-called name brands refused to sell them because they were trying to discount. So consequently, uh, I think my dad, especially, and likely Vivian as well, educated themselves as to how you measure quality in garments and they tried to buy like quality and sell that for a lower price point than, uh, goods were being offered in the downtown area. Uh, as time passed and Welgo became really a dominant, uh, business in Lexington, uh, some of these brand names, Levi' ; s being an example, uh, came to Welgo and said, " ; Would you please sell our merchandise?" ; (laughs) And that was the point at which, uh, really, I think, things really went through the ceiling. CRANE: One of the things that I remember about the Lexington Jewish community was that so many people were connected. They were related by blood or marriage, they went to the temple or the synagogue together, or they worked or were in business together like you just mentioned-- LEVY: Sure. CRANE: --um, Hoskell Goldberg and David Weil-- LEVY: Correct. CRANE: --and your, um, father. I know that at one time, my mother worked at Welgos. LEVY: Um-hm. CRANE: And so did my brother, Harvey-- LEVY: Yeah. CRANE: --and in fact, I worked there occasionally during, um, school breaks. But I know that there were other Jewish people who worked at Welgos, um, who were part of the business. Who were they, and how were they recruited, and what were their roles? LEVY: Oh gosh. (laughs) Well, uh, I certainly recall Shelly Derer, uh, uh, being there for years. Uh, Shelly, I believe, was the women' ; s wear buyer. Um, we had a gentleman named Milton Sims, who was Jewish, who actually had two tenures at Welgo. Uh, uh, and, um, Milton, uh, interestingly enough, uh, uh, as--as a kid, I always viewed him as a stern old man. I always loved Shelly and I thought Milton was, uh, you know, just a little gruff for my taste. Uh, in later life, after Milton had retired, uh, I actually ran into him when I was, uh, actually jogging through a park and Milton was walking. And his wife had passed away, Milton, uh, was retired, and anyway, yeah, I ended up, uh, kind of renewing, uh, the friendship as it were, and discovered that this really wonderful man, uh, dedicated his latter years, uh, to young kids. Uh, he, I believe, went to Breckinridge school. I may have the name wrong, but I believe that was it. And he started reading to some of the younger kids who were having difficulty, uh, uh, with reading skills. Um, Milton then developed, uh, some major problems and eventually, uh, was blind, but had memorized all the books. And the kids used to read to Mr. Milton, uh, and he would correct them, and, you know, he was a wonderful guy. But anyway, that--I mean, that' ; s one of my fonder memories, I must admit. Uh, as far as others, uh, we had a gentleman named Joe Abish, uh, who was a buyer and, uh, again, kind of a general manager. This was after my, uh, dad was bedridden, and, uh, I had been running the business for a few years. Uh, Joe was very talented and, uh, eventually, uh, did move on. CRANE: What was it like working with--with these other Jews from the community? LEVY: I-- CRANE: Was it unique or different because they were Jewish? LEVY: Um, other than, I think, I was always brought up to respect my elders, so that extend, I guess, uh, when I essentially had to take over the business, uh, you know, I--I wasn' ; t always comfortable trying to, uh, I guess, have things done mine way. Uh, that was a little difficult as far as being Jewish, uh, or not, uh, I don' ; t think it--that had a major impact on me. CRANE: What happened to Welgos? LEVY: Oh, I think, uh, I think Welgo was--probably is a typical American retail story. Um, first generation, uh, that would be my dad and the Weils, uh, did it a certain way, uh, had difficulty adapting when--when competitions came in, and would do similar things, and quite frankly do it better. And the adjustments that they chose to make, in my opinion, were probably not the right ones. Uh, uh, I suspect that had--had my father remained a risk-taker and expanded before the first K-Mart opened, as an example, and I believe they were the first discounter in town, uh, likely, had he had three or four stores around Lexington, and large stores as well, I don' ; t think the impact would have been the same. Uh, the result, I think, is he made choices to start eliminating departments, uh, where the discounters, the large discounters, had more depth, lower prices, and that let--left less and less opportunities. So the volume declined, uh, and he was really, I think, unable to modify the nature of the business. Um, when I came in, I had some really tough years, uh, as a result of that. Um, and ultimately, uh, you know, when, I guess, I--I did my risk-taking ventures, uh, some were miserable failures, uh, and then I got lucky and started making some better choices, and I had some very, very, uh, profitable years. And once again, I think Welgo could have probably still existed if my kids had had interest in the store. Uh, basically, their level of interest was--was very, very low and the business itself was really, uh, time intensive. Uh, uh, by the time, uh, I had the realization that I had to continue working I' ; m guessing fifty hours a week on the average, uh, or make other choices, I made other choices and became a landlord. CRANE: And who' ; s in--where, in the two locations, the one on Winchester Road--- LEVY: Right. CRANE: That' ; s, um, Kentucky Lighting, is it? LEVY: That is Kentucky Lighting. Uh, we sold the building to, uh, Erle Levy and I cannot remember the date. CRANE: And the one on Southland Drive? LEVY: Southland Drive I rented and actually, uh, would have bought the building, but the landlady sold it instead, uh, uh, to the gentleman, Don Hurt, who owns the Old Kentucky Chocolates. And meanwhile, I had, uh, purchased the, uh, old Kroger building across the street, uh, at auction from the library, um, and, uh, at that point, uh, my intention was to move Welgo across the street to that location. Uh, but instead, uh, liquor--the first Liquor Barn opened there. CRANE: I see. Okay. We' ; ve talked about Welgo, but you also have had connections to another first of its kind Jewish-owned stores in Lexington, Mr. Wiggs. LEVY: Correct. CRANE: Could you explain your connection to Mr. Wiggs and describe what kind of retail business it was? LEVY: Uh, Mr. Wiggs opened, I believe, in ' ; 63 or ' ; 64. Um, cousins of mine from Cleveland, my mom' ; s original home, uh, Eddie Singer, Joe Felber, and, um--gosh--a gentleman named Wiggins, whose first name escapes me, opened Mr. Wiggs, evidently, about five years prior to that and wanted to expand into Lexington. My mom had remarried, uh, Babe Meyers, brother of Emanuel Meyers, who owned Meyers' ; Department Store downtown. Babe, uh, owned an army goods surplus store called Army Goods Headquarters, which was across the street from Meyers' ; on, uh, Main near Broadway. Uh, they approached Ba--Babe and although I don' ; t know what percentage of ownership he had, um, my guess is that he had a minor ownership, uh, uh, piece of the local Mr. Wiggs, which opened first on New Circle Road. Second store was opened on Nicholasville Road, uh, the corner of Nicholasville and Malabu. And third one was, uh, on Alexandria, in the space currently, uh, uh, owned by--or operated by Kroger. CRANE: Hm. Um, as long as we' ; re talking about your-- LEVY: Sure, um-hm. CRANE: --your mom, would you share-- LEVY: Sure. CRANE: --that picture? LEVY: This is a picture of the three sisters, um, and I assume they' ; re at a swimming pool--(laughs)--somewhere. And looking at, uh, their ages, my guess is that they are likely still in Cleveland, Ohio. That' ; s Lillian Rosenberg, the eldest. In the middle is Kay, uh, last name Jacobi. And then my mom, Shirley, um-- CRANE: And they were all three Singers? LEVY: All three were Singers, originally, or, what--Singer or something with a Z, Z-y-n-g-e-r, [sic] I believe. Um, and, uh, they, uh--the picture, I' ; m guessing, was likely taken by their youngest baby brother, Emanuel Singer. CRANE: Okay. Um, how would you describe your parents, your mother, and your father' ; s relationship to Judaism? LEVY: Uh, well, my father, uh, certainly was brought up to be a religious man. Um, I can recall at the synagogue, basically if the rabbi was unavailable, uh, dad would conduct services, um, and, uh, I think, uh, that--well, there is no doubt that was a very important part of his life. Uh, on the Singer side of the family, uh, really no one was religious at all. That probably had greater impact on me than anything. Um, I am, to my knowledge, the only, uh, male in the family not to be bar mitzvah' ; ed. Uh, I rebelled against that. Lou Ann, my ex-wife, by the way, I think was the first, uh, bat mitzvah at the, uh, temple. So, uh, that' ; s an interesting balance. CRANE: According to the Ohavay Zion Synagogue website, your paternal grandfather, Joe Levy, and your great uncle, Sam Herman, your grandmother' ; s Jennie or Yachna' ; s brother, along with other great uncles that you have, including my grandfather Jonah Jacobs, were founding members of the synagogue, which at that time, in the beginning, was an--was orthodox in its practices. In fact, many years later, I remember your father reciting Jonah during the Yom Kippur services. However, I know that you pretty much grew up at the temple. How did this happen? What was Judaism like growing up for you? And how did it change over time? LEVY: Well, originally, uh, of course, my father had me involved in the synagogue, uh, and my earliest memories are sitting through, uh, what at that time appeared to be the seventy-two hour Yom Kippur service--(laughs)--you know? And I would look forward to, uh, escaping to go to--what was it? Will Dunn' ; s Drug Store, I think? (laughs) CRANE: Yes. LEVY: Uh, you know? But, I--I was, uh, it--it just never registered with me, I think, uh, for whatever reason. Uh, I would entertain myself by reading the English sections. Uh, you know, probably the only thing that I ever--that ever stuck with me might have been, uh, a little bit of my Maimonides, uh, the eight degrees of charity. And as a kid, I kept trying to figure out what all that meant. Uh, as an adult, I think I finally--I got it. But, uh, my mom, I think, realized how, uh, really unhappy I was, you know, being brought up like that, and eventually, uh, my brother and I were, uh, allowed to go to Sunday school at the temple, and, uh, that was more to our liking. Uh, uh, I think it was far less, in my opinion, intense as a kid, um, you know? My--again, you know, I--growing up Jewish in old Lexington was very strange. Uh, you know, one of my recollections as a kid probably, I' ; m thinking, second grade at Kenwick, was this little girl who had just moved in the from the mountains. Um, yeah, who I could barely understand. She rememb--she--she kind of reminded me of the guys who had cut tobacco for my grandfather and I always thought they were speaking a foreign language, but, uh, you know, of course, it was, uh, their version of, uh, English--(laughs)--as it were. But one thing I remember was I was, uh, just sitting at my desk and this little girl started running her fingers through my hair-- CRANE: (laughs) LEVY: --and, you know, I looked back and I said, " ; I don' ; t--what are you doing?" ; And she said, " ; Where are your horns?" ; And, you know, she was brought up to think that the Jews were the devil, and--and of course, you know, I explained to her that we had no horns--(laughs)--as far as I know, and I remember, you know, the interesting part was, you know, my parents then explained to me that there are some people who weren' ; t too terribly educated, and, you know, they have some innate prejudices, and this is unfortunately one of them and it' ; s just something to deal with. And, you know, that one always stuck with me, uh, so I don' ; t think it had any impact other than, you know, my current view, and that is, you know, I d--I am absolutely Jewish, uh, but I would say a lot of my Jewish friends consider me Jewish with a hyphen in there. J-E-W, hyphen, I-S-H, uh, you know? But that being said, I' ; m just not a good Jew. CRANE: (laughs) Describe some of your experience at the religious at the temple. LEVY: Oh, gosh. Well, you know, my-- CRANE: I know you had a lot of friends. LEVY: Yeah, well, I--you know, we had lots and lots of friends. Uh, you know, the people, uh, I recall at the temple who I liked, I liked a lot. The rabbis I liked, I liked a lot. You know, Joe Rosenbloom was terrific, uh, gosh. Davis before that, who by the way, uh, I met again, uh, in New York, uh, where he was the rabbi emeritus possibly in White Plains or something, uh, uh, when I was an attending a bar mitzvah of, uh--for one of my friends in later years. Um, I immensely disliked, uh, Rabbi Robert A. Rothman, the rabbi, who I thought, uh, was a poor excuse for a human being. Um, you know, I made judgments and probably bad ones--(laughs)--I suspect when it came to something like that, but, uh, you know, it' ; s just my personal view. CRANE: Sandy, where did you go to high school? LEVY: Uh, I went to Lafayette. CRANE: Um, and as we both know, there were only a handful or two of Jewish students at any of the-- LEVY: Sure. CRANE: --high schools back then. LEVY: Right. CRANE: What impact, if any, did being Jewish have on your school years? You mentioned the one experience when you were at Kenwick-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --um-- LEVY: You know, I really-- CRANE: --what about in high school? LEVY: --I don' ; t--I don' ; t really feel like there was any major impact. Uh, again, you know, I think my friends thought nothing of it, and, uh, and again, I, uh--I don' ; t think there was any--any real discrimination of any sort, uh, at all. And don' ; t forget when I--by the time when I was perhaps a junior and the schools were finally, uh, integrated, uh, at that point, uh, it was fairly clear to me that, uh, you know, most of the animosity was directed--misdirected, uh, toward the poor students who, you know, came in from, uh, I guess, Dunbar and Douglass originally and felt so out of place. CRANE: Hm. Describe how, or if you connected with a larger Jewish community in Lexington, or Louisville, or Cincinnati, such as youth groups, or parties, or socializing in some way. LEVY: Yeah, I w--well, I was involved in, uh, youth group, you know, off in all that, uh, and I went to camp in Zionsville, was it? A couple of times. Um, you know, and those--again, those were--those were nice times. Uh, uh, I don' ; t think it--I don' ; t think it had any major lifelong impact on me, frankly, but, uh, you know, those were just part of the experiences of growing up. CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual? LEVY: Probably as a kid, uh, you know, the, uh, Seder, I suspect, uh, you know, that' ; s when the extended family would get together, uh, you know, when I was young, trying to get the gelt, uh, finding the Afikoman in there, something like that. Uh, you know, but again, those are, uh, primarily childhood memories. Uh, you know, we did not, as a family, continue that tradition, uh, uh, neither Lou Ann or I--nor I had, uh, any great interest in doing that. CRANE: You' ; re connected to so many Jewish families in Lexington and are really a wealth of information. So before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else unique we should know about your family background or your childhood years? LEVY: Hm. (laughs) I really can' ; t think of anything. CRANE: Well, if you do. I know that your first college experience began at Miami of Ohio. LEVY: Right. CRANE: But at some point, you attended the University of Kentucky. Why was Miami of Ohio your initial choice and how did you end up at UK? LEVY: Uh, I guess I chose Miami of Ohio, uh, simply because, uh, it seemed like a better choice for me, uh, you know. I' ; d been dating Lou Ann for a thousand years, it was fairly close to home, um, I didn' ; t want to go to University of Chicago, where my brother attended. Um, you know, I--just because I didn' ; t want that sense of competition. Um, and, uh, essentially, I became homesick, so I transferred to UK the next year. CRANE: Um, how did your studies change from Miami to UK? LEVY: Uh, really, I mean, uh, not much. Uh, I was an English major, uh, and I always enjoyed reading and I always curious, I guess, uh, and really, the only thing that changed, uh, more than anything else was, uh, that, uh, I got married too young and didn' ; t finish. And so I dropped out after my junior year, got married at twenty-one, and, uh, uh, regretted that I never went back because I really thought I intended to do so. CRANE: You can be a Diamond scholar now. LEVY: I doubt it, uh, I hope they have higher standards. (laughs) CRANE: Describe a day in your life as a college student on UK' ; s campus. LEVY: Well, I would, uh, attend my classes. Uh, generally speaking, uh, at night, I, uh, hate to admit it, but I would usually get involved in poker games, uh, which is, uh, how I built my first house by the way. But, uh, we had all night poker games in the basement of the home on Linden Walk, uh, where one of my poker-playing buddies, uh, lived at the time. And I rarely slept, so, uh, I, generally speaking, uh, found it fairly easy to, uh, do--to really complete each and every task and at the same time burn the midnight oil. CRANE: What impact, if any, did being Jewish have on your day-to-day experiences at UK? LEVY: Honestly, I don' ; t think any. I--I chose not to join, uh, the fraternities, and, uh, so consequently, my friends were either friends who I met as a result of, uh, I guess just meeting them in class, or poker games, or you know, some other social aspects, and, uh, but I really didn' ; t attend any Jewish functions that I' ; m aware--that I can recall. CRANE: Um, Hillel? Were you-- LEVY: No. CRANE: Okay. What was the climate on campus for Jews to become members of non-Jewish fraternities when you were there? LEVY: I honestly don' ; t know because I, uh, you know--I just showed no interest, uh, you know. At Miami of Ohio, uh, uh, I think they offered--I think it was a Fiji, Fuji, whatever it' ; s called--(laughs)--you know, the rush thing on me. I just--yeah, I thought those things were silly, so I just didn' ; t do it. CRANE: What was Jewish life in Lexington when you were a student at UK? LEVY: (laughs) I--I wish I could help you, but I--I just don' ; t know. I really wasn' ; t involved. I' ; m sorry. CRANE: That' ; s okay. Um, what was your Jewish life after college? You said you got married when you were twenty-one? LEVY: Right. CRANE: Um, obviously, that' ; s what kept you in Lexington? LEVY: Yep. CRANE: Um, describe your Judaism in your home as a parent. LEVY: Well, uh, originally, we, uh, sent our kids to Sunday school, uh, because the grandparents, uh, really my grand--my father, uh, insisted on it and the kids is--would attend some of the religious functions and so forth, but, uh, as they got older, uh, the kids just, uh, really, again, I suspect because the parents did not guide them in that direction, the kids showed little interest and, uh, by the time I' ; m sure they were teenagers, uh, we no longer attended, uh, either organization. Did I stump you? (laughs) CRANE: No. LEVY: Sorry. CRANE: Um, did you all celebrate holidays, and if so, in the home, what were they like? LEVY: Not really, uh, you know. Uh, when they were young, we celebrated Hanukkah, of course. Uh, we did celebrate the other holidays, uh, you know, when my dad was functional, um, but after--you know, after he became bedridden, uh, you know, all that disappeared. CRANE: Tell us about your involvement and the involvement of your children with the Jewish community outside of the religious school. I mean, um, you said they went for a while and then-- LEVY: Right. CRANE: --they quit going. Did they stay connected--um, describe your family as a family unit remaining connected to the Jewish community. LEVY: Well, our friends, our primary--you know, our closest friends, of course, are Jewish. Uh, Lou Ann and I traveled a great deal, uh, with the Winnikers and the Lowenthals, um, you know, Mike and Harriet Ades were our friends, Sarah was--is Jennifer' ; s age. Uh, so, you know, the kids, of course, you know, had friends who were Jewish. They also had a lot of friends primarily from school, uh, uh, with whom they were also close. So I think, again, you know, the parents and, uh, Lou Ann and I, essentially did not, uh, bring them up in a Jewish, uh, background. CRANE: What has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your activities and of your identity as a Jew? LEVY: I unfortunately would say, uh, very little. Um, I, you know--I certainly, you know--I mean, I--I identify and I support Israel, but that being said, uh, this is not something that, uh, I guess, guides my every thought. CRANE: Okay. You grew up in Lexington, and with the exception of going away to college for a bit, you pretty much remained here. Your family, um, and or you have been involved at some level with both the synagogue and the temple, and you' ; re related by blood, or marriage, or connected by business, or friendships to much of the Jewish population here. Um, so tell me, Sandy, how do you think the Jewish community in Lexington has changed over the years? LEVY: Well, certainly, it' ; s grown. Um, that--I think that goes without saying. Uh, as far as how it has grown, I' ; m not even qualified to say because, uh, other than funerals, I suspect, I haven' ; t set foot inside the synagogue in years and possibly that--well, I' ; ll take that back. I--I would have lunch, occasionally, with Marc Kline, who I really liked, uh, you know, just as an outstanding human being, you know, and he ma--he' ; d--you know, he' ; d pitch me all the time--(laughs)--and I told him, " ; No, that' ; s not a strike. That' ; s a ball." ; But anyway, uh, I really--I don' ; t think I' ; m qualified to answer that. CRANE: Okay. Um, what work do you do or did you do that we haven' ; t already talked about? LEVY: Uh, we--businesses? CRANE: Um-hm. LEVY: Oh gosh, um, hm. Well, let' ; s see. I--(background sneezing)--uh, had a--(background sneezing)--had a group of stores, uh, in malls and strip centers, uh, called The Better Half, uh, which, uh, I closed, I guess, when the big department stores, uh, started doing that, uh, piece of the business, uh, uh, a bit better than I did. Uh, that was women' ; s large sized clothing, but, uh, fashions. Uh, you know, in the old days, it was, uh, difficult for, uh, women who couldn' ; t fit into the standard eight to eighteen or the junior sizes to really get anything fashionable, so our first one was in Lexington Mall. And then, uh, I opened one other here in town, and one in Florence Mall, and one in Kenwood in Cincinnati. And then when McAlpin' ; s at the time opened their fashions for larger sized ladies, they put it right outside the entrance to their store, which was, uh, two doors down from my store. So at that point, uh, I was able to sell a couple of locations, close them down, and that was that. Um, I also was involved with two partners, one in New York, one in, uh, well, basically out of San Diego, uh, in buying surplus merchandise from large, uh, primarily department stores. Uh, you know, very, uh, we' ; re talking about substantial, uh, investments, capital investments perhaps in the million-dollar range would have been the maximum we ever had. And basically the three of us, as it were, scout potential, uh, opportunities, and uh, generally speaking, we would then go in for some percentage of the piece. Uh, the person who found the goods could take some percentage for his or her operation, uh, otherwise, we would help sell it out. So I was involved in that for perhaps five years or so. Um, and that was very, very profitable. Um, I, uh--because of my buy-outs of Jos A. Bank overstocks when they were run by Quaker Oats, when Jos A. Banks started franchising, uh, I made the error of becoming a franchisee and, uh, discovered that the reason they were franchising, uh, to my chagrin, was that they were trying to raise capital. And, uh, it was very successful when it opened in town, but when I discovered was that the suits that were ordered were not necessarily filled by sending the new merchandise, but rather if they had excess merchandise that was similar, they were, uh, sending old merchandise here. And, uh, it took about a year and a half before I realized what was happening and that did not end well, so I became an ex-Jos A. Bank franchisee the hard way. Um, what else? Uh, with Stuart Lowenthal, we opened up, uh, at Kroger, an operation called FastCare, which has now become Little Clinic-- CRANE: Wow. LEVY: --um, I was basically the financial guy. Uh, Stuart--it was Stuart' ; s idea and Stuart is the guy who, at age seventy-five, probably works more hours a day than I thought of working in a week. Um, and the theory behind it was a--was a terrific one. Uh, we thought we' ; d have nurse practitioners on staff at all times, a doctor to oversee this. And the pitch to Kroger was, uh, they could sell more prescriptions because nurse practitioners could write prescriptions and they could diagnose, uh, minor--certain minor, uh, ailments. And the problem with the original that I ran into was that it was difficult finding nurse practitioners to staff the kiosk every opening hour. Uh, eventually, after about a year or so, uh, I bailed and stayed on free of charge while Stuart made the transition, and very successfully, uh, turned it out, of course, to be what' ; s now FastCare. I--I' ; m sorry, what' ; s now Little Clinic, uh, that, uh, Kroger will have, I' ; m sure, in all of its major, uh, stores. Um, what else have I done? I don' ; t know. CRANE: You sound like you' ; ve been a very busy man. LEVY: I--yeah, well, you know. Some hits, some misses. But, uh. CRANE: Great. Exciting. LEVY: Yeah. CRANE: Um, looking back, I know that you have certainly expressed a--um, a distance from your family' ; s Jewish background. You' ; ve sort of moved away from that. But I' ; m just wondering if--if you could change anything about your relationship with Judaism, what would it be? LEVY: Well, huh. That--that becomes--that really is--is a difficult question, uh, for me to answer, simply because my world view is, I guess, really has changed over the years. Uh, I--I guess I once regarded religion generally as being something good in that it provided, I think, a--a safe place for people, like-minded people, to gather. And, uh, again, you know, I mean, I will say, for instance, uh, you know, there are parts of Judaism that I like. One would be the standards of ethics and morality, uh, you know, that I--to which I try to adhere. Uh, on the other hand, uh, I look at ritual, uh, especially orthodox and conservative ritual in Judaism, and I tend to question the--the difference between our rituals and the rituals of some of the religions that we now consider to be wacky religions. Uh, everyone has something. Uh, I don' ; t miss that part at all, uh, and--and I certainly feel more comfortable being around people who are Jewish than I do certain people who come from different cultural background. And again, that' ; s because of the way I was raised and I certainly recognize that. Uh, to say I have regrets, I think is--that' ; s a little strong for me, that really is. CRANE: Is there anything else that you would like to share that I haven' ; t already asked you about? LEVY: Uh, gosh. No-- CRANE: Some of your connections, or family background, or-- LEVY: Well, no, I mean, I-- CRANE: --parts of your life that were interesting, or characters in your family that you' ; d like to tell about. LEVY: Well, let' ; s see, characters, certainly, my stepfather was quite a character, uh, Arthur " ; Babe" ; Meyers. Uh, came from a large family. Uh, you know, the story I also heard was that, uh, they all had vaudeville backgrounds, uh, and I can believe it. Each of the brothers was funnier than the other, uh, I mean, they really were a lively family. Uh, my--my stepfather, of course, being a--well, was a WWII guy, and, uh, he--he used language--(laughs)--that, uh, I suspect, uh, um, would offend most people. Uh, but he could do it in such a charming way, uh, that, uh, I think most people forgave him that. He was certainly quite a character, uh, uh, I think, in fact, in the Herald-Leader, there was an article when--gosh, Dave Greenwald? Is that his name? Opened the deli? CRANE: Um-hm. In Chevy Chase. LEVY: In Chevy Chase. And as I recall, Babe--now, Babe was not religious in any way, and they had a picture of Babe, and Dave Greenwald, and I think Bob Stevens, who was a county judge perhaps at the time. Anyway, and they had them all wearing yarmulkes and there' ; s Babe cutting a salami--(laughs)--so, you know, I mean, he did stunts like that that, again, you know, I think kind of endured him to the community and made my life a lot of fun. CRANE: Okay. Um, Sandy, this has been a pleasure. Um, it' ; s been wonderful, um, chatting with you and I' ; ve learned a lot. LEVY: Well, I' ; m glad you did. (laughs) CRANE: I have. LEVY: My pleasure, Janice. Thank you. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh049_jk017_levy_ohm.xml 2016oh049_jk017_levy_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Sandy Levy, April 11, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
Sanford (Sandy) Elliot Levy was born in Lexington, Kentucky. His grandparents, Joe and Jennie Levy were part of a wave of Jewish immigration from a shtetl in present-day Lithuania named Pushelat that was a result of the Bolshevik Revolution. Levy's grandfather, Herman Levy, partially owned a retail clothing store on Upper Street, in Lexington, Kentucky, He also owned farmland in the southern Lexington area where they grew tobacco, raised cattle, and did various other agricultural ventures. Levy's father began the shoe department at Meyers' store in downtown Lexington, Kentucky and eventually became one of the founders of the Welgo Traders in 1951, one of the largest retail clothing stores in Lexington, Kentucky. Levy himself had numerous business ventures throughout his life.
Levy's father was very religious and would oftentimes substitute and lead Jewish services for the rabbi in Lexington, Kentucky at Ohavay Zion Synagogue. He reflects on sitting in religious services at the synagogue as a child, attending Sunday school at the Temple, and dealing with anti-Semitism while in elementary school. He wasn't involved in any student organizations while he was a student and his Judaism had little impact on his college life.
Identifier
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2016oh049_jk017
Subject
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Entrepreneurship
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
Jewish families.
Lexington (Ky.)
Traditional farming
Family farms.
Livestock.
Family histories.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/b23d3e38b2e84e1be3b4a9ef54c167d6.png
ef0efa00a48fd041ffacf12bf935da0c
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Annette Mayer
Interview Keyword
Communities.
Community development.
Anti-Semitism
Fasts and feasts--Judaism.
Holidays.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2016oh048_jk016 Interview with Annette Mayer, March 24, 2016 2016oh048_jk016 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Family histories. Jewish children Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Worship (Judaism) Jews--Identity. College students--Social conditions Greek letter societies. University of Kentucky Judaism. Religion Communities. Community development. Anti-Semitism Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Holidays. Annette Mayer Janice Crane 2016oh048_jk016_mayer_acc001.mp3 1:|32(16)|59(9)|77(20)|97(5)|111(10)|135(13)|174(10)|195(14)|222(3)|247(4)|262(8)|276(6)|296(6)|318(3)|340(1)|360(8)|372(15)|394(14)|423(14)|442(6)|451(14)|468(10)|487(15)|504(11)|523(10)|546(6)|559(8)|578(3)|590(4)|600(11)|609(10)|620(1)|631(8)|643(4)|656(5)|666(3)|683(4)|697(11)|724(6)|737(6)|746(9)|754(11)|768(9)|779(15)|791(3)|804(1)|814(12)|830(1)|847(11)|858(8)|870(14)|879(14)|889(5)|904(11)|919(9) 0 https://oralhistory.uky.edu/spokedbaudio/2016oh048_jk016_mayer_acc001.mp3 Other audio 4 Family history and arrival in Lexington, Kentucky For official purposes, today is March 24th, 2016. Annette Mayer describes the circumstances in which she and her family moved to Lexington, Kentucky. Her father believed that following the attack on Pearl Harbor the United States could be invaded from the southern border so he took a job as a furrier at B.B. Smith and Company in Lexington. She also names her various family members. Austria ; B.B. Smith & ; amp Company ; Bertha Schwartz ; Brooklyn (N.Y.) ; Furriers ; Jacob Perlmutter ; Ken Mayer ; Ruth Levin Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Pearl Harbor (Hawaii), Attack on, 1941 ; World War, 1939-1945 38.040358, -84.49022500000001 17 Main Street, Lexington Kentucky, where B.B. Smith and Company was located. http://www.kyphotoarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Lexington-1938A.jpg Main Street, downtown Lexington, circa summer 1938. 233 Jewish upbringing in Lexington, Kentucky in the early twentieth century How would you describe your parents' relationship to Judaism? Mayer describes her parents' relationship to Judaism and her upbringing as a young Jewish girl in Lexington, Kentucky. Some stories include purchasing kosher meat, celebrating Jewish holidays such as Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and her recollection of attending Hebrew School. She also names some of her Jewish girl friends she had while growing up. B'nai Brith ; Bat mitzvahs ; Betty Marcus ; Cantors ; Conservative Judaism ; Frankfort (Ky.) ; Goller ; Kay Frankel ; Kimball House ; Kosher ; Maxwell Street ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Rabbi Albert Pappenheim ; Rabbi Bernard Schwab ; Rosh Hashanah ; Sue Newman ; Synagogue ; Yom Kippur Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0437891, -84.501984 17 Historic location of Ohavay Zion Synagogue on Maxwell Street in Lexington, Kentucky. This location is now an Italian restaurant named Joe Bologna's. 879 Student life at the University of Kentucky and membership in Phi Sigma Sigma sorority 1950-1954 Okay, after high school you attended the University of Kentucky. What years was this, and what did you study? Mayer graduated from Henry Clay High School in 1949, the last class to graduate mid-year. Mayer began her undergraduate studies at the University of Kentucky in January of 1950. She was inspired to pursue a major in Radio Arts and Television with a minor in Journalism by the founder of KET, Len Press. While in college, Mayer had little social involvement because of her strenuous work schedule at the Ashley Theatre in the Chevy Chase neighborhood in Lexington, Kentucky. She joined the Jewish sorority Phi Sigma Sigma in 1952 because her friend Sue (Newman) Friedman asked her to. The sorority was struggling to find members because of the small number of Jewish women who attended the university. Mayer describes some of the student activities the sorority participated in, including the homecoming parade and socials with the Jewish fraternity Zeta Beta Tau. She also worked one semester as the station manager for the university radio station WUKY. Ashley Theater ; Chevy Chase ; College View Street ; Eminent Domain ; Evelyn Wides ; Helen Goldfarb ; Henry Clay High School ; Hillel ; Kentucky Educational Television (KET) ; Len Press ; Memorial Coliseum ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Sue Friedman ; Sue Newman ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; University of Kentucky 38.0242408, -84.50069189999999 17 Location of KET in Lexington, Kentucky. http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt79kd1qgb7g/data/0244/0244.pdf The Phi Sigma Sigma yearbook page of the 1953 Kentuckian. 1627 Jewish life after college Describe how you continued your, your Jewish life after college. After college, Mayer moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she began working for the television station WLWT as a publicity writer. After about three years, she began working for the United Way which was known at that time as the Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati. Annette's friend Sue was dating her future husband Ted who was working for IBM in Lexington, Kentucky. Ted's roommate was Ken Mayer, Annette's future husband. Mayer discusses raising her children Jewish in Lexington where they each had a bar/bat mitzvah, went to Jewish summer camps, attended Hebrew School and attended Sunday school. Annette talks about the differences between her own Jewish identity and her children's, and her thoughts on Zionism and the state of Israel. Bar mitzvahs ; Ben Goldfarb ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati ; David Ades ; Dayton (Ohio) ; Girl Scouts of America ; Hebrew School ; International Business Machines (IBM) ; Israel ; Ken Mayer ; Sunday school ; Ted Friedman ; Transylvania University (Lexington, Ky.) ; United Way ; WLWT ; Zionism Israel. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 39.1242262, -84.52160989999999 17 WLWT in Cincinnati, Ohio http://media2.wcpo.com/photo/2015/05/07/3-Council%20of%20Social%20Agencies%20and%20Community%20Chest%20logo_1431014198190_17973456_ver1.0.jpg Logo for Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati 2332 Involvement in the Lexington community 1950-present Um, Annette I know that you've been very active in both the Jewish community and the community at large, which is one of the reasons you were chosen for this interview. Mayer has been involved in numerous Lexington Communal Organizations including the Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative and the One World Film Festival. The One World Film Festival has established a strong tradition on Martin Luther King, Jr. Day of showing a powerful film with a presentation each year. She was also a member of an organization called Speak Out Lexington in the 1960s and 1970s where people from the community would come to speak about various issues the community faced. She concludes by discussing how she has always been concerned that the different groups within the Lexington community, including the Jews, rarely go outside of their own communities to interact with the others. Book Buddies ; Brandeis University ; Central Kentucky Council for Peace and Justice ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Jewish Film Center ; Mandela: Long Walk to Freedom (film) ; Nelson Mandela ; One World Film Festival ; Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative ; Pew Foundation ; Raise the Roof ; Sesame Street ; Speak Out Lexington Advisory Committee Communities. ; Community development. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky http://lexfilm.org/ Website for Lexington One World Film Festival interview Annette Mayer describes the circumstances in which she and her family moved to Lexington, Kentucky following the attack on Pearl Harbor. She describes her parents' relationship to Judaism and her upbringing as a young Jewish girl in Lexington, Kentucky. Some stories include purchasing kosher meat, celebrating Jewish holidays such as Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and her recollection of attending Hebrew School. Mayer began her undergraduate studies at the University of Kentucky in January of 1950 and was inspired to pursue a major in Radio Arts and Television with a minor in Journalism by the founder of KET, Len Press. She joined the Jewish sorority Phi Sigma Sigma in 1952. The sorority was struggling to find members because of the small number of Jewish women who attended the university. Mayer describes some of the student activities the sorority participated in, including the homecoming parade and socials with the Jewish fraternity Zeta Beta Tau. After college, Mayer moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she began working for the television station WLWT as a publicity writer. After about three years, she began working for the United Way which was known at that time as the Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati. Mayer has been involved in numerous Lexington Communal Organizations including the Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative and the One World Film Festival. Mayer discusses raising her children Jewish in Lexington. Annette talks about the differences between her own Jewish identity and her children's, and her thoughts on Zionism and the state of Israel. CRANE: OK. For official purposes, today is March 24th, 2016. My name is Janice Crane, and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I' ; m honored to be here today with Annette Perlmutter Mayer. I' ; ve known Annette for many years but have never had an opportunity to hear details of her life and listen to her story, so I' ; m excited to share this time with her and looking forward to our chat. So, Annette, before we get too involved, I have a few general questions-- MAYER: --OK-- CRANE: --uh, informational questions for you. MAYER: OK. CRANE: What was your name at birth? MAYER: Annette Perlmutter. CRANE: OK. Did you have a middle name? MAYER: No. CRANE: OK. MAYER: I didn' ; t have a middle name. I was cheated. CRANE: (laughs) When and where were you born? MAYER: Brooklyn, New York. CRANE: OK. I know your parents are no longer alive, but what were their names, and where were they originally from? MAYER: My mother' ; s name was Bertha Schwartz. My father was Jacob Perlmutter. And they both were born in Austria. CRANE: Oh. Uh, what were your parents' ; occupations? MAYER: Well, my mother was definitely a homemaker. Now, my father was--and you won' ; t believe this--he was a furrier. He made fur coats-- CRANE: --ooh. MAYER: --from skins. And I remember seeing him laying out skins on a great big table, and then sewing them together to make a beautiful fur coat. CRANE: Do you have any of them? MAYER: No. (laughs) CRANE: Just thought I' ; d check. MAYER: I mean, we' ; re talking a long time ago, and you don' ; t have fur now. CRANE: That' ; s true. Uh, what brought your family to Kentucky, and how old were you when you moved here? MAYER: It was 1942, and the United States had been attacked, and we were living in Dallas, Texas at that time, and my father was afraid that we would be--we meaning the United States--would be invaded through the South, and he wanted to get out of Texas. So he looked for a job someplace inner United States, and he found one in Lexington, Kentucky. So that' ; s how we moved here. CRANE: And what was the job he came here for? MAYER: As a furrier. There was a department store here named, uh, B.B. Smith & ; Company. This was probably before a lot of people were born. And they had an opening. They had a fur department, and they needed a furrier. CRANE: Hm. MAYER: So he got the job, and that' ; s how we came to Lexington. CRANE: If you have siblings, what are their names and ages relative to you? MAYER: I have a sister who is, uh, five years older than I am. Her name is now Ruth Levin. And then, uh, I have a brother, uh, Jerry, and he is two years older than me, and he lives in Florida, and my sister lives in Vermont. CRANE: And for the record, what was your husband' ; s name? MAYER: Ken Mayer. CRANE: And what are the names and ages of your children and your grandchildren? MAYER: Uh-oh. OK, my daughter, Michelle, is, uh, about forty-seven, and my son, Mike, is forty-five. And I have two grandchildren, Elliott, who' ; s four years old, and Madison, who' ; s going to be one year old pretty soon. CRANE: And this is their home, right? MAYER: This is their home, yes. CRANE: How would you describe your parents' ; relationship to Judaism? MAYER: Oh, um, very close. Uh, I would say we were a mix between Orthodox and Conservative before we moved to Lexington, uh, and then, uh, we were--my father was sort of like a cantor, and he had a great voice. And, uh, he was--I mean, they were fairly religious. And, uh, you know, pra-- we practiced. We were very, uh, you know--we kept kosher, and, uh, very strict about that. CRANE: And what was keeping kosher like in Lexington, Kentucky at that time? MAYER: Tough. Uh, I know that you probably heard about Mr. Goller -- CRANE: --um-hm. MAYER: --and his store, and I vividly remember, uh, when I went to Lexington Junior that I would walk up--it' ; s just a block away from, uh, Mr. Goller' ; s store--I would walk up and get kosher meat there, and I would go with my mother there, and she would go in his backyard and find a chicken, and pick the chicken that she wanted for Shabbos, and, uh, he would slit its throat, and she would sometimes just take it home and pluck it herself, or sometimes she would stay there and pluck it. CRANE: Okay. (laughter) MAYER: Yeah. CRANE: Uh, what was, uh, Judaism in your family like growing up? You said you kept kosher. Um-- MAYER: And we were very strict in observing the s-- the holidays. CRANE: Okay. How did you celebrate them? MAYER: In Texas or here? CRANE: Either one. MAYER: Oh, okay. Well, um, for the major holidays, you know, like Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, uh, you know, very, very strict. In fact, uh, when I first married, and my husband was from New York, and we were living here--uh, you know, of course, at that time we were here in Lexington--uh, I was, uh, so concerned about the high holidays that we used to stay downtown in a hotel so that we could walk to services at what we called the old synagogue, and, um, and I was so--still then I was really religious, and I wouldn' ; t turn on lights on the Sabbath or anything like that, and that' ; s why we stayed in the hotel. CRANE: And did you do this growing up? MAYER: Yes. CRANE: Stay in the hotel? MAYER: Here in, uh-- CRANE: --in Lexingt-- MAYER: --after we were married? CRANE: No, before. MAYER: Before. No, we were living close enough to the synagogue that I could walk-- CRANE: --okay. MAYER: --and, and I would walk to the synagogue. This was before I was married-- CRANE: --right. MAYER: --growing up. CRANE: I know that as an adult you attended the synagogue, but not sure if that' ; s where you spent your youth, or if that' ; s where your parents went. MAYER: No. I mean, oh, yes, they were-- CRANE: --OK. MAYER: --they were at the synagogue, of course. CRANE: Describe your family' ; s in-involvement in the Jewish community, not yours as an adult but yours as a child, or a young adult-- MAYER: --well-- CRANE: --young teenager. MAYER: --unfortunately, my father passed away three years after we moved here, so now we' ; re talking 1945. And it was--you know, those were sort of tough times. And, uh, so, you know, we observed the holidays as best as we could, but always going to the synagogue. CRANE: Okay. Share some of your religious school and Hebrew school experiences, yours-- MAYER: --uh, what-- CRANE: --and how they were different or the same as that of your children. MAYER: I didn' ; t have as much a, uh, attachment to a--what' ; s--what I find different now is that going to, uh, Sunday school is big here in Lexington. I never went to Sunday school in Texas ; it was always Hebrew school. And I remember that we had a bus that used to come and pick me up, take me to Hebrew school, and then bring me back home. But here in Lexington it was different, but I did go, uh, to Hebrew school here in the old--what we call the old synagogue. And, uh, I did not have a bat mitzvah because growing up it was not customary for women to have bat mitzvahs. CRANE: But did you did go to Hebrew school. MAYER: I did go to Hebrew school and learn Hebrew and everything, but-- CRANE: Who was the rabbi when you were in Hebrew school. MAYER: Rabbi Schwab. CRANE: When you were in Hebrew school? MAYER: Uh--Yeah, I think it was Rabbi Schwab. I don' ; t know, it might' ; ve been Rabbi Peppenheimer. CRANE: I think it was-- MAYER: --probably Peppenheimer, and then into Rabbi Schwab. CRANE: OK. Um, describe the relationship you had with other Jewish families and Jewish friends growing up in Lexington. MAYER: I had a couple of close friends growing up in Lexington, and, uh, our relationship with other families was very casual, because, uh, most of the time we were just busy with our own lives. CRANE: OK. Who were some of your friends growing up in Lexington, Jewish friends? MAYER: Uh, Sue Newman-- CRANE: --um-hm. MAYER: --and her husband, Kay Frankel. CRANE: Oh, yeah. MAYER: And, uh, I' ; m--I have a distant relationship with, uh, some family in Frankfort, Kentucky, and, uh, I was very close with one of the, uh, girls who lived in Frankfort, Betty, uh, Betty Marcus. And, um-- CRANE: --did they own a furniture store? MAYER: They owned a furniture store, and--well, actually her--it was her uncle who owned the furniture store, Betty' ; s father owned a jewelry store-- CRANE: --oh. MAYER: --in Frankfort. And she used to come into Lexington quite often. And we had a, uh, BBYO group when I was growing, the B' ; nai Brith young girls organization, and, uh, they were about--there were several of us involved in that. CRANE: And what year was this? MAYER: I knew you were gonna ask me that, and I can' ; t remember. (laughs) But I guess we were all probably about thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, getting ready to, you know, think about going to college. CRANE: Okay. How did you connect with the larger Jewish community? I know that you went to the synagogue, uh, but did you spend time with, uh, some of the children from the temple, or from Cincinnati, or Louisville? MAYER: No, no, I don' ; t recall, uh--Uh, we were very--a very close-knit group here. And of course, uh, at that time growing up, uh, I didn' ; t have access to a car, so we were limited in transportation. So it was very, you know, just centered around the synagogue. CRANE: Lexington has never had what we would call a large Jewish population. In fact, regardless of what public or private school you attended--and you already mentioned, um, Lexington Junior--that being Jewish in Lexington made you a minority. What was it like for you being Jewish in a predominantly Christian environment in Lexington? MAYER: Well, you know, maybe I was too dumb, but I didn' ; t sense any discrimination. And, uh, the only thing that used to bother me were the, uh, holidays in December, when there was a lot of emphasis on Christmas in the schools. And that would kind of bother me, but I never felt like people were looking, uh, strange at me because I didn' ; t celebrate Christmas, and I always made sure to tell them that I didn' ; t celebrate Christmas. But I never felt any real discrimination because of that. CRANE: Did you have any experiences with anti-Semitism then growing up here? MAYER: I didn' ; t--I didn' ; t sense it. Now, maybe it was there and I was just too dumb and didn' ; t recognize it, but it never bothered me. CRANE: I' ; m sure that you' ; ve learned a lot about being Jewish from your family and your friends, but what were the things that you learned that you feel really had a significant impact on your life? MAYER: As far as Judaism-- CRANE: --um-hm. MAYER: --is concerned? Just the fact that I was Jewish, and I felt that this made me different. And also, at times I felt I was smarter, because, you know, I was used to reading a lot, and I think the emphasis of Judaism is education, and looking at the whole world rather than just your immediate surrounding. CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual? MAYER: Uh, probably, you know, the high holidays. CRANE: What do you remember about them? MAYER: Uh, that they were intense, and, um, of course, in the old synagogue, the one on Maxwell Street, uh, you know, there was definitely--because of the rabbis, it was more Orthodox than it is today. Uh, and remember, we' ; re going back quite a few years. And I do remember, you know, that the women sort of sat in one area. The men sat in another area. And then what, what was always interesting to me is I saw people I never saw any other time during the year, which was great, which was great. CRANE: And the women with their hats. MAYER: With their hats. And people did dress. CRANE: Yes. MAYER: ' ; Cause I remember, no matter how tough times were, we always got something new for the holidays. And that was special. And that made it special. CRANE: Since you stayed at the Kimball House, did you see the monkeys there during the holidays? MAYER: No--(laughs)--no, I don' ; t remember. I don' ; t remember that at all. CRANE: OK, before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else unique we should know about your family b-background or your childhood years? MAYER: No, I, I don' ; t, I don' ; t think so. CRANE: Or that you' ; d like to share? MAYER: No, not right now, mm-mm. CRANE: OK, after high school you attended the University of Kentucky. What years was this, and what did you study? MAYER: Uh, I entered UK, it was nine--it was January of 1950. I, I was in the last midyear graduating class at Henry Clay High School. We were the last graduating midyear, and we had--actually had formal graduation ceremonies. CRANE: Hm. MAYER: So I don' ; t know how that happened. I guess I skipped something at some point. Um, so I, I started UK in 19--in January of 1950. CRANE: OK. MAYER: And I, I didn' ; t pick a major until about at least two years into, into UK. CRANE: And what was your major? MAYER: My major was--(laughs)--radio arts and television, with a minor in journalism. CRANE: I would expect that from you. MAYER: And I was fortunate enough to have as my advisor the first, uh, really chair of the radio arts television division at UK, uh, Len Press, who founded KET, and he was my advisor, and I majored in what I did because he was so nice to me. So I had no major at that point, and I was taking a couple of the introductory classes. And so he said, " ; Why don' ; t you major in this?" ; And I said, " ; OK." ; And that' ; s how it started. CRANE: Describe a day in your life as a college student. What kinds of things did you do? Where did you go? Where did you live? And what did you do for fun? MAYER: Uh, well, again, uh, times were not the greatest. I went to UK because it was so convenient, and I worked all the time I was a student at UK. And, uh, you' ; re probably--a lot of people don' ; t remember this, but there was a theater in Chevy Chase called the Ashley Theater, and it had just been built. I was a senior at Henry Clay, and I got a job there as the cashier. I was the first cashier for the theater. So I started work in the afternoons, so I arranged all my classes at UK, morning classes. And at that time, we lived in a little house on a street called College View, which is right in back of Memorial Coliseum, but it is a parking lot now. CRANE: Hm. MAYER: There was a street there with these really sweet little houses, and then UK wanted to build Memorial Coliseum, and they took the houses on that street by eminent domain. CRANE: And then where did you move from there? MAYER: Well, by that time I was already getting, uh, ready for, uh--I had graduated college. CRANE: Oh, I see. MAYER: So we' ; re now talking 1954. And I had graduated college, and was looking for a job, and I really wanted to move to a larger city. So I was--I got a job in Cincinnati. CRANE: I see. Well, you were pretty much on campus, then, during your campus years. MAYER: Right. CRANE: You lived at home. MAYER: Right, I lived at home and walked over to UK. And, uh, as I said, I arranged all my classes, they better fit in in the morning, and if not I didn' ; t take ' ; em. CRANE: You know, Annette, I remember the Chevy Chase Theater really well growing up on Fontaine, and for a quarter you got in, and for a nickel you got one of those all-day suckers. MAYER: Right, right. CRANE: So-- MAYER: --yes. CRANE: --I remember it quite well. So what did you do for fun? MAYER: You know, I can' ; t remember doing anything for fun. I wasn' ; t able to go to the football games or the basketball games, and I--at that time you used to have passes. You know, the university would issue them. And so I had a lot of people who thought they were my friends because they wanted my, my student tickets, which I gave to people naturally, ' ; cause I couldn' ; t use ' ; em. I was too busy working. CRANE: It' ; s my understanding that you were a member of the Jewish sorority on campus, Phi Sigma Sigma, which began in 1952? MAYER: Right. CRANE: Typically young ladies go through a rush process as a way for sorority affiliates to recruit new members. Describe the process that you went through to become a member of Phi Sigma Sigma. MAYER: To be honest with you, I don' ; t remember any really strict process. In other words, I was Jewish. They were looking for Jewish girls, and so I joined. And again, my closest friend, Sue Newman, who was--became Sue Friedman--was a member, ' ; cause she was a year ahead of me. And so, uh, she said--you know, there was no discussion. " ; You, you have to be a member. We need members." ; We were very, very small group, but yet, what we tried to do was really be involved in some of the projects that sororities were involved in at that time. CRANE: Can you describe some of those? MAYER: Well, for example, um, can' ; t remember the occasion, but we, uh--it was gonna be a parade of some sort, and we did a float like everybody else, a huge float. And, um, uh, you know, we entered in anything that we could, limited by our size, and that were--we, were really a small group. But what was really nice is we had a couple of families here in Lexington, Jewish families that were very nice to the sorority. And I don' ; t know if anyone has mentioned, uh, Helen Goldfarb and Evelyn Wides. They were two well-known, uh, Jewish women here in the community. And actually, they sort of were like town mothers for us and helped us out, ' ; cause both of the women are now deceased. But, uh, Mrs. Goldfarb' ; s children went to UK, and, um, they--And so she had a real feeling for UK. And then Mrs. Wities had a couple of, of relatives at UK. And so they were very helpful to us, and for the--at some of the, uh--there were about three or four of the girls were, uh, not from Lexington. And so the Wides or the Goldfarbs would have them over on some of the holidays for some meals and, and just to be--get together. CRANE: How were the girls that, um, were not from here, how were they identified or recruited? MAYER: You know, I have no idea how someone knew they were Jewish, or, you know, um--I don' ; t know. I really don' ; t know. But they--we suddenly found them. I' ; m sure there were others who were Jewish that we didn' ; t find, or didn' ; t know about. CRANE: Describe the Jewishness of the sorority, besides that you, you all were Jewish. Um, what kinds of things and activities made the sorority Jewish? MAYER: Other than the fact that we were Jewish, and that kind of fe-- we felt that we had to be strong within ourselves in order to compete with the larger sororities, uh, that were on campus, and so we, we, uh, we were, you know, trying--tried to be together as much as we could, mainly for each other to show that, you know, we had a lot to contribute, even though it may not look like a lot, but at least being together made us feel a little bit stronger in an environment that was not predominantly Jewish. CRANE: Did you all have a house? MAYER: No. CRANE: Or you met at one of--at either the Goldfarbs' ; or the--? MAYER: Right, or in, you know, someplace on UK campus. CRANE: What were some of the other members, um, besides Sue--uh, where were they from, and what kind of relationships did you have with them? MAYER: Well, I know there was one girl, uh, her name was Judy Sonnabend, and she was from New Jersey, and, um, I guess the others were probably, um, here, you know, in Lexington. They were--and I can' ; t remember--there was another girl, and I--now I can' ; t remember her name, who was also from up East. And then other--I think the rest of us probably were from Kentucky. CRANE: About how many of you were there? MAYER: Yeah, I' ; m thinking in terms of probably either nine or ten, we were always very small. CRANE: How did Phi Sigma Sigma interact with the other Greek organizations at UK, especially the Jewish fraternity, ZBT, that was on campus at that time? MAYER: They were very--ZBT was very supportive of our group, and occasionally, I think, we got some help from them. Like, for example, I remember building the float. I think they came out wherever--I can' ; t now remember where we have it, but they came out, some of the guys, and helped us. And then, of course, they did have a house, and, um, I think once or twice we were over there, you know, for a social of some sort. CRANE: Someone, um, spoke of ZBT inviting a member of Phi Sigma Sigma over on Shabbat to light the candles. Do you recall any of that? MAYER: No, I don' ; t, but it sounds-- CRANE: --it sounds sweet. (laughs) MAYER: It sounds very sweet. Very sweet. CRANE: I thought so. Um, describe your experiences with other Jewish or non-Jewish organizations on campus. Was there a Hillel at the time, and what was your involvement with Hillel? MAYER: To be honest with you, I don' ; t remember a Hillel. I' ; m sure there was, but, again, I worked, uh, you know, every afternoon and a lot of evenings. And the only real interaction I had with other students is I--there was one semester that I served as the station manager for the, uh, radio station at UK, WUKY, and, uh, so I was on campus a lot because of that. And the only reason I did that was because I got free tuition that semester for serving as the station manager of the station, which at that time was a lot. I mean, not a lot of money in terms of money today, but at that time it was a lot of money. CRANE: How did you feel about affiliating with a Jewish sorority, or participating in other Jewish campus organizations which, I guess, there weren' ; t any other ones? MAYER: There weren' ; t any, that I know, and I don' ; t remember a Hillel-- CRANE: --OK. MAYER: --uh, at all. There might' ; ve been. CRANE: And how did you feel about being a member of Phi Sigma Sigma? MAYER: To be honest with you--(laughs)--I did it because Sue wanted me to. CRANE: You were a good friend, yeah. MAYER: You know, she, uh--And, you know, I felt like we needed represent--representation on the campus, and what little I could do--and mainly because, you know, come one o' ; clock I would leave and go to the theater and work, because I was working my way through school. CRANE: Did your experience, um, with the sorority or your Jewish friends, how did that impact your Jewish identity, um, dating, marriage, how you lived your adult life? MAYER: Uh, I don' ; t think there was any real connection. I mean, whatever connections I made with other Jewish--you know, I, I dated some Jewish boys on campus. You know, I don' ; t even think they were members of ZBT. I think they were just maybe people that were in my classes that I got to know one way or the other. I didn' ; t do much socially, ' ; cause I had no--I didn' ; t have time for it. CRANE: Describe how you continued your, your Jewish life after college. MAYER: My Jewish life after college. Well, at that time, uh, after college, I moved away to Cincinnati where, uh, again, I was trying to establish myself, because I was alone. I was, you know, on my own and, uh--But at that time, Sue was also--was in Dayton, working for the Girl Scouts, so we would get together. She had a car, so she would come down to Cincinnati, and we would do things every once in a while together, which was really nice. CRANE: Did you have a job in Cincinnati? MAYER: Yes. CRANE: What was it? MAYER: I worked--my job--first job out of college was with, uh, WLWT, which was a television station in Cincinnati. And I worked for them as a publicity writer. And then after, uh, I think about three years, I went over to--and I worked for the United Way, or rather at that time it was called the Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati. And again, I did publicity writing for them. CRANE: I know that you raised your children in Lexington, um, so at some point you came back to Lexington. When was that, and how did you get back here? MAYER: I got back here because, um--let' ; s see, how can--how can I put this so it--so we don' ; t go into a great, big, long story? Uh, at that time, Sue was coming back to Lexington, and, of course, my mother was living here, so I was coming back, you know, every two, three weeks to spend a weekend with her, ' ; cause she was alone. My brother had married, and my sister had married, and they were in Florida or in Vermont. And, um, so Sue was coming back quite often, and she started dating this guy who was working for IBM called Ted Friedman. And Ted had a roommate, and his roommate was Ken Mayer. CRANE: I had no idea. That' ; s interesting. MAYER: So they--and so Ted was dating Sue, and Sue said, " ; Well, I got this friend who lives--who' ; s in Cincinnati right now, uh, Annette Perlmutter." ; So I would come down, and we would double date. And this was nineteen--about 1957, ' ; 58. And Ken was here because, uh--(clears throat)--excuse me--his mother grew up in Frankfort, and she was a Marcus, the Marcus family. And she had married and moved to New York, where Ken' ; s father, uh, was at that time living. And so, um, Ken needed--at that time Ken was a CPA, and un-until you could get your license you had to work for two years with another CPA in order to sit for the CPA exam. So he came down, and he worked for Ben Goldfarb, Helen Goldfarb' ; s husband, who was a CPA and had his own little firm. So that, because of Ken' ; s family connections in Frankfort, he came down to Lexington, and that' ; s how we met. CRANE: I see. Describe your children' ; s experience, and what supports and challenges you were faced with in raising your, your children Jewish in Lex--here. MAYER: Well, the, the main thing was that, you know, when the kids got old enough to go to school, or to have, you know, friends come over, and, um, you know, they, they went to Hebrew school, they went to Sunday school, uh, like the kids do now, and, uh, grew up knowing that, you know, very much so, that they--you know, Mike had his bar mitzvah here, and, uh, Michelle couldn' ; t really decide whether she wanted a bat mitzvah or not, and she did decide she wanted a bat mitzvah, and so we had a bat mitzvah for her. But she was going to Hebrew school all along, and Mike was going to Hebrew school, and they both were going to Sunday school at that time. And there was a very strong group of girls for Michelle in her age group, and so she was very close with a lot--her--a lot of her friends were Jewish friends. There weren' ; t as many boys Mike' ; s age when he was growing up. Well, he had one or two close friends, David Ades and a few others, but there weren' ; t as many boys as there were girls. And unfortunately, at that time, there wasn' ; t very much interaction with the kids at the temple. CRANE: Tell me about your involvement in the Jewish community as an adult. MAYER: Um, other than--you know, what involvement I have had has been connected with the synagogue, uh, but, uh, uh, because of, of the kind of work that I do when I first came back, I was--I started working for Transylvania University, and I got very involved with the academic side of Transylvania, as well as involved with the student organizations at Transy. So I spent a lot of time with them. At one time I was advisor to their student publications, and over the years, because I spent--I, I worked with them for so long, I spent time in various different departments doing different things. CRANE: How does your relationship with Judaism and your practices compare to that of your children' ; s now? MAYER: I think my children probably are--were more involved. Um, for example, Michelle went on year-course to Israel for a year, and, uh, she went to, uh, camp, uh, uh not tel yehuda. Um, well, she went to, to Jewish camps, uh, quite often, during the summers, and, um, more so than Mike. Mike, uh, was more involved in sports and in, um, computers. In other words, he went to a couple, uh, high-level computer camps when he was in high school, because of his interests. And, um, and so the kids were always involved in something, but--and it' ; s because of them I would be involved in some things. CRANE: I see. How has your Judaism and your practices changed over the years? MAYER: I have--to be honest, I' ; ve become more lax. In other words--(laughs)--I don' ; t walk to shul on the high holidays. Uh, but I do, you know, of course, observe them, and, uh, encourage--have always encouraged my kids to observe them, which they do. CRANE: What has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your activities, and of your identity as a Jew? MAYER: It' ; s probably not as strong as some other people' ; s. Uh, I think I would best be classified as middle in the road. Um, I, to be honest, I don' ; t see Israel as the all end of everything. Uh, if you really read up on what has been going on, is going on, and probably will continue to be going on, there are some things that you would not--that I don' ; t agree with. I guess you' ; d say I' ; m a little bit more liberal, and, uh, over the years, you know, I, I have tried to keep myself aware of what' ; s going on, but, uh, uh, you' ; re not gonna see me on a street corner holding up a sign saying " ; Israel Forever." ; But I do believe in, in, you know, this feelings of Israel, and I certainly support it through contributions, but I' ; m not gonna be sitting there saying everything that Israel does is right. CRANE: OK. Uh, you' ; ve been a part of the Lexington Jewish scene for many years. How, how do you see that things have changed within the Lexington Jewish community since you' ; ve been here? Um, for example, the relationship between the synagogue and the temple, um, has the population changed, um-- MAYER: --well-- CRANE: --Jewish organizations, such as Hadassah, B' ; nai B' ; rith, or the Federation? How do you see those changes over the years? MAYER: Well, certainly they become more open to each other. I mean, there were probably many years that people in the temple didn' ; t speak to the people in the synagogue, and vice versa. And I, I think it' ; s great that there seems to be more interest in each other' ; s activities and ideas, and willing to, you know, be, uh, compassionate with each other. I mean, there are some people over the years that were very strongly opposed to any kind of interaction, and now there seems to be some real, uh, cordial relationships, which I think is great. Uh, if, if there' ; s anything that disturbs me, it is--I don' ; t see the Jewish community--and some people aren' ; t gonna like this, if they hear it--(laughs)--uh, I don' ; t see the Jewish community as really becoming--being a part of the Lexington community. And that' ; s what disturbs me from time to time. I-- CRANE: --can you explain that a little bit now? MAYER: OK, I go around to different organizations, and I' ; m members--and I' ; m members of different organizations. And you' ; ve heard the saying of--for the African Americans in breaking the ceiling, or for women, breaking the glass ceiling. Well, in some groups, I' ; m the only Jewish person involved, and to me they' ; re worthwhile groups that do things for Lexington. And I would like to see more Jewish people involved in some of the things that will continue to make Lexington a growing community, an open community, and, um, and help this community in many ways. CRANE: What are some of those groups that you' ; re speaking of? MAYER: Uh, that I would rather not say right now. CRANE: OK, that' ; s fine. MAYER: OK. CRANE: Um-- MAYER: --but that, that' ; s, that' ; s--and that' ; s my personal feeling, OK? CRANE: That' ; s what all this is about. MAYER: OK. CRANE: Um, and then I know that you' ; ve been very active in both the Jewish community and the community at large, which is one of the reasons you were chosen for this interview. Um, you spent a great deal of your adult life both volunteering and working in varying degrees in what some might call political and social activism. If you could share some of your leadership and activist roles in the community over the years, both Jewish and non-Jewish--for example, your work with the Central Ken--Kentucky Council for Peace and Justice, uh, I know that you were on the Pew Civic Leadership Initiative, um, the Speak Out Lexington Advisory Committee. I know that you' ; ve been really active with Book Buddies and Irving County government, and, of course, your present leadership role with the One World Film Festival. If you could just speak a little bit about those and your involvement. MAYER: Um, where should I start? Well, actually, the, um, the Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative was something that happened about twenty, twenty-five years ago, and the whole idea behind that was to help people in the community develop into civic entrepreneurs, and it was a great program, and the City had received a grant from the Pew Foundation for this program, and they picked, I think, about ten cities in the United States for this program. And I was on one of the local committees. And from that, after the grant dried up, we started, uh, just a small group. We had, um--there was this incredibly brilliant, uh, man who was a native of India, who was a PhD MD at UK, and he had the idea that through film we can help educate people about different cultures. And from that we started the One World Film Festival, and it' ; s now in its eighteenth year of bringing cultural films to the community and showing them without cost. And that has involved getting, uh, organizations and businesses to contribute money so that we can continue to do that without charging people. And, uh, it has grown so that, uh, we can--for example, we show a film on, uh--as part of the City' ; s celebration of Martin Luther King Day. And so we provide a film appropriate for the day, and show it in the afternoon on MLK Day to the community free of charge. And we have been averaging close to six hundred for every film showing on MLK Day. And this last, um--this last MLK Day, we showed the film Mandela: Long Walk to Freedom, and I had the--a professor at UK, a professor of history, whose specialty is Africa, and he compared Nelson Mandela with Martin Luther King, the comparison of the two men. And he did an excellent job, and we had that before the film showing, for people to try to understand the connection that you could see between Nelson Mandela in his later life, when he became President of South Africa, with what Martin Luther King was trying to accomplish here in the United States. And so we bring in cultural films. And then I' ; ve also been supportive of a number of, of candidates running for political office, because I do think the ballot box is where it all starts. And, uh, you know, sometimes successful, sometimes not, but it' ; s very important. CRANE: And in 2016, the ballot box is-- MAYER: Kinda closed. (laughs) CRANE: Quite a challenge. (laughs) Um, address Speak Out Lexington a little bit. MAYER: Speak Out Lexington is, uh--we had various topics, and we tried to involve people that were not involved in anything else to come say, where we' ; d have these, like, forums, and have people express their opinion about certain issues in the community, and how to bring people together. And, again, this was in the ' ; 60s and, and ' ; 70s. And the important thing we felt was trying to involve people who were not involved in anything. And, you know, there are some really bright people in this community. There are times you wish you could kick some other people out and get these other people to get involved and do things, because they are so intelligent, so educated, and, and this is really--Lexington is a very highly educated community, and what UK brings in in terms of their faculty is just unbelievable. If people on the outside take a look at what, what UK has, I think you would be amazed. CRANE: Can you look at any of these positions that you' ; ve been in in the community, um, and your involvement and see if how you were raised, um, as a Jew had any kind of impact on your participation in these groups? MAYER: Probably, because I think from our heritage that we try to, of course, always do a mitzvah, and there are so many groups in this community that need a helping hand, that it' ; s really very easy to get involved in an organization that is out there trying to help bridge the gap between the various segments of the community. And Lexington is still a kind of divided community, and now with so many people moving into the--coming into Lexington who are not natives of the United States, this is--you know, right now, uh, it' ; s my understanding that there are about ninety different languages spoken in the public schools. And so that just shows you how many different groups Lexington ha--is supporting. And many--and these people need the helping hand. And also, uh, because Lexington has been a small community, there are a lot of people that don' ; t really realize how open this community is, and how many people need a little helping hand. CRANE: What do you mean by a " ; divided community" ; ? MAYER: There are a lot of people who--and I say--I use the phrase of they don' ; t cross Main Street, but--(laughs)--you know, th-they are so involved, I guess, with their own ethnic group, and some of them realize that, that this is a welcoming community. Others don' ; t realize that. And so you' ; re always working with groups one way or the other, and when it doesn' ; t work, that you don' ; t get the group involved that you want to get the group involved, uh, it' ; s because you feel like they don' ; t feel like they' ; re welcome. And, of course, there' ; s great, uh, inequality as far as, uh, finances in this community. And, uh, you know, you pick up the paper, and you see where someone is having, uh, a dinner or a fundraiser, and the price tag is at $125, $150 for a dinner or something like that, and then you wonder if they would just take that money and really help somebody, it would be so much better. I mean, the people attending a fundraiser for the most part, they don' ; t need the food. And, um, it would be nice if some of that was directed where there is a real need in our community. CRANE: Where do you see the need? MAYER: Uh, with people who, who are just low income. And low income starts, you know--is the start of why we have so many problems with young people who either drop out of school or don' ; t have the advantage that s-some other kids have, and afterschool programming, to help them really become better citizens and be productive citizens. CRANE: I' ; m just curious: of all the films that you' ; ve, um, that you' ; ve shown in your O-One World Film Festival, what was your favorite? Or do you have a favorite? MAYER: It--there are so many great films out there that, that we have brought in, and, um, I--you know, I really--it' ; s so hard. I mean, I' ; ve, I' ; ve seen about 125 films, and, uh, I think-- CRANE: --or any that really touch your heart? MAYER: I can' ; t now remember the exact title, but it was a Sesame Street film, and what it was at that time--and this was at least probably ten years ago that we showed this film, where the production people from Sesame Street went around the world and did a Sesame Street production in certain foreign countries, with the native people, and it was fabulous. CRANE: Wow. MAYER: It was just unbelievable. CRANE: Looking back on that, what, if anything would you change about your relationship with Judaism? MAYER: I can' ; t think of anything right now. I, I know I probably should be more involved in Jewish activities, but I feel like, you know, some of my really close friends are not Jewish, and, as I say, when I go and I work with some of the organizations, and I' ; m the only Jewish person, and I try real hard, if I accept a position of leadership in, in an organization, to do the very best job I can, mainly because they--everybody knows I' ; m Jewish. I' ; ve never, you know, uh, put it under the covers or anything like that, and I want people to know that, gosh, just because--you know, there' ; s no difference, even though I might be--religion-wise I might be Jewish, I still can contribute to anything I say I want to help with. CRANE: Why do you feel, um, that there' ; s not enough involvement in Lexington community at large activities, uh, from the Jewish community? MAYER: Well, because, as I say, I have been involved in a number of things, and I' ; ve always been the only Jewish person. Is that-- CRANE: No, I understand that. I mean, why do you think that' ; s so? Why are people not en-engaging in these activities? MAYER: Maybe because, uh, again, that they are so involved in, uh, the synagogue, or the temple. And even though I don' ; t know everybody who' ; s Jewish, um, I, I just, you know, see people. For example, um, when we show what we call a, quote, Jewish film as part of the One World Film Festival, we' ; re not showing it because it' ; s a Jewish film. We' ; re showing it because we hope that we can explain or enlighten, uh, some members of our Jewish community, and as well as the non-Jewish community, some of the things maybe J--uh, Jewish people have had to face over the years, or what some of their cultures--uh, something about their culture. And that' ; s the whole point of the films. I mean, uh, we just finished our 2016 series. One of the films that we showed, uh, was entitled Raise the Roof. And, uh, actually we got it from the Jewish Film, uh, Center at Brandeis University. And, uh, and it was about the reconstruction of a very famous synagogue that was destroyed by the Nazis in Poland. And it took the group that was, uh, doing the reconstruction work, uh, almost ten years to develop it. So we brought it in, and, um, I spoke with the gentleman here in Lexington who is President of the Kentucky Society of Architects, and asked him would he introduce the film, and he said he would. And, of course, he' ; s not Jewish, but he was looking at the film, and I was looking at him, to provide, uh, the way for people to understand what the people who developed--who reconstructed this, uh, project, who worked on it, why, why they were doing it, in addition to understanding, uh, what the synagogue meant to the people in Poland after it was--when it was destroyed by the Nazis, that he could explain that, in addition to what they did to develop it. And we had about 150 people to see the film, and there were a tremendous number of non-Jews who came, which is exactly what we are striving for. And it had nothing really as a--on a personal level, but yet, on a international level, to see what some people--and the people who reconstructed it primarily were not Jewish. CRANE: Annette, clearly you have done some great work in our community, and we all thank you. MAYER: Oh, it' ; s life. CRANE: Is there anything else, um, that you would like to share that I haven' ; t already asked you about that you feel is important? MAYER: Well, I just wish people would get more involved in things. I mean, this is a great city, and it has a lot to offer. CRANE: Can you recommend a few, um, places? MAYER: You know, um, again, because I guess my background in journalism and, uh, you know, uh, from the sidelines television--and, of course, my daughter is very involved in, in television, and, you know, she works for ABC News. CRANE: Oh. MAYER: And, um, a-again, behind the scenes, because she' ; s the stage manager for World News Tonight for ABC. And, um, I just wish people would maybe read more and think more about the community, and, and what' ; s going on. And, uh, especially now, this year, I don' ; t know how anyone can say to people like you and me, " ; Oh, I don' ; t want to pay any attention to that." ; But so much of it--of what is going on is going to affect you and me, and everybody else. CRANE: That is true, Annette. MAYER: And it worries me. CRANE: Well, I thank you very much-- MAYER: --thank you. CRANE: --for this interview. Thank you. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. audio Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh048_jk016_mayer_ohm.xml 2016oh048_jk016_mayer_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh048_jk016_mayer_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Annette Mayer, March 24, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
Annette Mayer describes the circumstances in which she and her family moved to Lexington, Kentucky following the attack on Pearl Harbor. She describes her parents' relationship to Judaism and her upbringing as a young Jewish girl in Lexington, Kentucky. Some stories include purchasing kosher meat, celebrating Jewish holidays such as Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and her recollection of attending Hebrew School.
Mayer began her undergraduate studies at the University of Kentucky in January of 1950 and was inspired to pursue a major in Radio Arts and Television with a minor in Journalism by the founder of KET, Len Press. She joined the Jewish sorority Phi Sigma Sigma in 1952. The sorority was struggling to find members because of the small number of Jewish women who attended the university. Mayer describes some of the student activities the sorority participated in, including the homecoming parade and socials with the Jewish fraternity Zeta Beta Tau. After college, Mayer moved to Cincinnati, Ohio where she began working for the television station WLWT as a publicity writer. After about three years, she began working for the United Way which was known at that time as the Community Chest and Council of Cincinnati. Mayer has been involved in numerous Lexington Communal Organizations including the Pew Civic Entrepreneur Initiative and the One World Film Festival.
Mayer discusses raising her children Jewish in Lexington. Annette talks about the differences between her own Jewish identity and her children's, and her thoughts on Zionism and the state of Israel.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2016oh048_jk016
Subject
The topic of the resource
Family histories.
Jewish children
Jewish families.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
Worship (Judaism)
Jews--Identity.
College students--Social conditions
Greek letter societies.
University of Kentucky
Judaism.
Religion
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/15a173d2f477948f70b4ff454278afad.jpeg
2a2b464340d103baf957df8358f16c0e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Wides
Interview Keyword
Alpha Epsilon Pi (AEPi)
Wides Scrap Metals
Family histories.
Jewish children
College environment
Greek letter societies.
College students--Religious life
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2016oh047_jk015 Interview with Mark Wides, March 18, 2016 2016oh047_jk015_wides jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Discrimination. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Jews--Identity. University of Kentucky Alpha Epsilon Pi (AEPi) Wides Scrap Metals Family histories. Jewish children College environment Greek letter societies. College students--Religious life Mark Wides Janice Crane 1:|23(4)|56(1)|80(5)|101(2)|122(14)|141(15)|154(13)|161(14)|179(7)|193(5)|202(2)|209(8)|217(12)|250(8)|259(5)|269(14)|278(5)|290(13)|312(13)|332(8)|340(10)|358(4)|393(6)|401(10)|410(13)|435(5)|451(5)|460(6)|480(4)|494(2)|512(1)|521(5)|539(4)|555(5)|567(13)|579(3)|602(11)|611(9)|626(2)|658(10)|667(9)|683(11)|695(2)|705(4)|723(5)|738(8)|759(6)|773(8)|782(6)|798(4)|815(11)|835(11)|856(1)|877(9)|901(16)|915(11)|932(3)|951(2)|969(3)|979(13)|988(15)|1004(12)|1017(5)|1026(15)|1053(1)|1065(9)|1072(13)|1081(14)|1094(10)|1103(9)|1120(10)|1130(9)|1140(16)|1149(12)|1158(8)|1168(11)|1179(5)|1187(8)|1195(6)|1205(11) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253325716" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family history For official purposes, today is March 18th, 2016. Wides describes his family history and relations in Kentucky. He also describes his relations to other Jewish families, including the Ades, the Micklers, and the Cohens. Alison Kinningham ; Alison Michelle Wides ; Avery Madison ; Bella Jane Kinningham ; Betsy Wides ; Betty Claire Mickler ; Brandom Michael Wides ; Bristol Kate Wides ; Brittany Wides ; David Ades ; Family history ; Family relations ; Harry Cohen ; John Kinningham ; Justin Alan Wides ; Laura Wides ; Lily Ades ; Lily Claire Kinningham ; Mike Ades ; Norman Aaron Wides ; Robert Cohen ; William Joseph Kinningham ; Yvonne Fister Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 539 History of Wides Scrap Metals What were your parents' occupations? Wides provides a history of the Wides Scrap Metals company, established in 1946 after his father returned from World War II. He got a loan from his grandmother and opened the business with his brother, Ed Wides. He details how the business competed with larger firms by purchasing from steel centers and eventually became a steel and miscellaneous building supply company. Wides also discusses his relationship to the Skuller and Cohen families, and mentions the newly renovated Skuller clock on Main Street. Baker and Wides ; Baker family ; Ben Norris ; Building businesses ; Contracting ; Edward Joseph Wides ; Family history ; Harry Gordon ; Harry Gordon Steel ; Jewish businesses ; Morris Baker ; Morris Wides ; Mort Norris ; Scrap metal ; Skuller ; Skuller's Jewelry Store ; Steel service centers ; Wides Scrap Metals ; World War II Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.045, -84.473 17 Location of Wides Scrap Metal at 700 E 7th St, Lexington, Kentucky 40505. http://www.kentucky.com/news/article43939164.html Photo album from the Lexington Herald Leader detailing the restoration of the Skuller's clock in downtown Lexington. 1367 Growing up Jewish in Lexington, Kentucky in the 1950s and 1960s Okay, what was your Judaism in your family like growing up? How did Jewishness figure into your childhood and what traditions did you follow? Wides describes his experience growing up Jewish, including his connections to the larger Jewish community through summer camps in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and New York. Although he used to be involved with Temple Adath Israel, including teaching Sunday school, he is not as active anymore. He remembers the holidays with his family and celebrating the holidays with his Gentile friends. Bar mitzvahs ; Bill Shraberg ; Education ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; Henry Clay High School (Lexington, Ky.) ; Integration ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish religion ; Jewish tradition ; Membership ; North American Federation of Temple Youth (NFTY) ; Summer camps ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Youth organizations Childhood ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 http://www.nfty.org/about/history/ History of the North American Federation of Temple Youth (NFTY) 2186 Photographs from Wides Scrap Metals Before we get into, um, your college life, can we talk about the pictures you brought? Wides shares some photos from the original Wides Scrap Metal company. He discusses the employment of George Jackson, an African-American and the first person they hired in 1946. Wides also talks about the process of collecting and processing scrap metal. Building businesses ; George Jackson ; Jewish businesses ; Photographs ; Processing ; Railroad ; Relations with African Americans ; Scrap metal ; Steel ; Wides Material ; Wides Scrap Metals Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Lexington (Ky.)--Race relations. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.041, -84.467 17 Former location of the first building owned by Wides Scrap Metal at 960 Winchester Rd, Lexington, Kentucky. 2357 College life at the University of Kentucky in the mid-1960s I know that you graduated high school in June of 1966, and therefore probably started college that following fall. Wides describes his time as a student in the mid-1960s at the University of Kentucky in the school of architecture. He also shares his experience as a swimmer in high school and college and the establishment of the first dedicated swim space for the Greater Lexington Aquatic Club (now Kentucky Aquatics) which is housed at the Lancaster Aquatic Center at the University of Kentucky. Architecture ; Colleges ; Education ; Greater Lexington Aquatic Club ; Greater Lexington Swim Association ; Housing ; Lexington history ; Libraries ; Residence ; Sports ; Swimming College environment ; College facilities. ; College students--Social conditions ; University of Kentucky ; University of Kentucky. College of Architecture 38.038, -84.550 17 Parkside (formerly Cross Keys YWCA), 1060 Cross Keys Rd, Lexington, Kentucky 40504. http://www.kentucky.com/news/business/article44152251.html Article from the Lexington Herald Leader from 2012 detailing the history of the Cross Points area and the current development project taking place. 2982 Greek life and the establishment of Alpha Epsilon Pi at the University of Kentucky in 1972 Mark, it was my understanding that while you were at the University of Kentucky you were involved to some degree in the establishment or an attempted establishment of the Jewish fraternity AEPi. Wides describes his experience as a Jew at the University of Kentucky during the turbulent era of the 1970s, and his role in the establishment of the Jewish fraternity Alpha Epsilon Pi. 1970s ; Alpha Epsilon Pi (AEPi) (University of Kentucky) ; Community involvement ; Education ; Fraternity ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; College environment ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Discrimination. ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 17 http://www.aepi.org/about-aepi/history-of-alpha-epsilon-pi/ History of the Alpha Epsilon Pi fraternity. 3849 Jewish life, community involvement, and negative family attitudes towards intermarriage You've talked a little bit about your Jewish life after college, um, and why you stayed in Lexington in order to continue working, and that your wife's family is, obviously, from here as well. Wides describes his life as a Jew in Lexington, his involvement in the Jewish community which included a tenure on the board of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, and his children's relationship to Judaism. Although the Lexington community was relatively open to the Jewish community, Wides describes the range of his family's attitudes, from delight to hostile, towards his marriage to his wife, who is not Jewish. Bill Leffler ; Child-rearing ; Civic involvement ; Community involvement ; Family life ; Family values ; Interfaith dating ; Intermarriage ; Israel ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Leadership ; Zionism Families. ; Interfaith marriage. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 4357 Growing acceptance in the Lexington community and Jewish values in business How have things changed in Lexington, um, since you've been here, as far as the Jewish community? Or do you see the changes? Wides describes how the Lexington community has become more accepting of the Jewish community, particularly in business. He also explains how Jewish values employed in Jewish businesses, such as compassion, a strong work ethic, and a balance between work and family, has permeated to non-Jewish businesses. Business ethics ; Child-rearing ; Cultural acceptance ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Wides Scrap Metals Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/impactjewish.html " ; The Impact of Jewish Values on Marketing and Business Practices" ; by Hershey H. Friedman, PhD, professor of Business and Marketing at the City University of New York. interview Wides describes his family history and relations in Kentucky. He provides a history of the Wides Scrap Metals company, established in 1946 after his father returned from World War II. He got a loan from his grandmother and opened the business with his brother, Ed Wides. He shares some photos from the original Wides Scrap Metal company, and talks about the process of collecting and processing scrap metal. Wides describes his experience growing up Jewish, including his connections to the larger Jewish community through summer camps in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and New York. Although he used to be involved with Temple Adath Israel, including teaching Sunday school, he is not as active anymore. He remembers the holidays with his family and celebrating the holidays with his Gentile friends. Wides describes his experience as a Jew at the University of Kentucky during the turbulent era of the 1970s, and his role in the establishment of the Jewish fraternity Alpha Epsilon Pi. Wides describes his life as a Jew in Lexington, his involvement in the Jewish community which included a tenure on the board of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, and his children's relationship to Judaism. Although the Lexington community was relatively open to the Jewish community, Wides describes the range of his family's attitudes, from delight to hostile, towards his marriage to his wife, who is not Jewish. Wides describes how the Lexington community has become more accepting of the Jewish community, particularly in business. He also explains how Jewish values employed in Jewish businesses, such as compassion, a strong work ethic, and a balance between work and family, has permeated to non-Jewish businesses. CRANE: For official purposes, today is March 18th, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane. And I' ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky oral history project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I' ; m honored to be here today with Mark Wides. Mark and I were raised in Lexington about the same time. He' ; s just a little older. And I suspect that we both have similar and yet so very different experiences. So I' ; m really looking forward to recording Mark' ; s story, for myself and for others to hear. So let' ; s begin. WIDES: Let' ; s go. CRANE: For the record, what is your full name? WIDES: Mark, middle initial E, or Edward, if you' ; d like, Wides. CRANE: And when and where were you born? WIDES: Uh, 2/10/48, uh, the old St. Joe Hospital, here in Lexington. CRANE: Uh, are your parents alive? And what were your parents' ; names and where were they from? WIDES: Neither are alive. Uh, Dad was Norman Aaron Wides, was actually born in Richmond, Kentucky, uh, 8/22/18. My mother was Betty Claire Mickler, born in Asheville, North Carolina, grew up in Lexington--or grew up, excuse me--in Louisville. Dad grew up in Lexington. She was born on 8/22/26. CRANE: Uh WIDES: --so, yes, they did have the same birthday. CRANE: That' ; s interesting. WIDES: Yeah. CRANE: Uh, did your parents and/or maternal or paternal grandparents' ; names change when they or their parents came to America, since your parents were born here? Were their family names changed? Were your names always Wides or? WIDES: --always Wides. CRANE: And always Mickler? WIDES: Um-hm. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Or Ades. CRANE: Ades! WIDES: My grandmother was Ades. CRANE: Oh! A relation to Mike Ades' ; s family? WIDES: Yeah. Cousin. Uh, my grandmother' ; s fathe--uh, there' ; s a relationship there between my grandmother' ; s parents and, uh, David Ades. I think, uh, Lily and David were first cousins. CRANE: Okay! WIDES: Mike was--uh, is David' ; s son. CRANE: Uh WIDES: And then there it goes from there. CRANE: What brought your family to Kentucky? WIDES: That' ; s a good question. Honestly, I do not know. CRANE: Do you or did you--(Wides clears his throat)--have other relatives in Lexington, at the time they came here? Or when did they come here? WIDES: Uh, gee, I' ; m not sure when they came to--uh, uh, not knowing when they came here--uh, are there other relatives? CRANE: The Ade WIDES: We' ; re somewhat, uh, obviously, related to the Ades--uh, a, uh--also the Mickler family, Bob Mickler and--late Bob Mickler and his daughters. Uh, that was a cousin. Uh, trying to think. Uh, directly also to the Cohen family, Robert S. Cohen-- CRANE: --uh WIDES: --Harry Cohen. CRANE: Well, you did have some relatives. So WIDES: (clears throat). Yeah. CRANE: Uh, if you have siblings, what are their names and ages relative to you? WIDES: I' ; m the oldest of four. Uh, I had a sister named Laura, who was, uh--no longer with us, died in ' ; 75, uh, hit by a drunk driver on a Sunday afternoon-- CRANE: --uh WIDES: --six weeks, to the day, after my mother passed away. Uh, have a sister Betsy, born in ' ; 51, uh, currently still lives in Lexington, uh, not married, uh, works as a come-to-you barber. Uh, and she' ; s also a, uh, volleyball referee. CRANE: Uh! WIDES: And she travels the country, uh, periodically, uh, refereeing volleyball tournaments, everything from clubs to high schools to colleges. And she' ; s done some SEC [Southeastern Conference] work, NAIA [National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics]. She' ; s done some pre-Olympic stuff. She' ; s kind of amazing, in that she' ; s four-foot-eleven, maybe. CRANE: Wow! WIDES: So. But, uh, she has a good time doing that. And then, finally, I' ; ve got a younger brother, Steven. Uh, and he' ; s an attorney here in Lexington. CRANE: Okay!--(Wides clears his throat)--Are you married? WIDES: Married since 1970. CRANE: Okay. And what is your wife' ; s name? And where is she from? WIDES: She' ; s from here in Lexington. She' ; s a member of the Fister clan, uh, grew up--both of us, obviously--here in Lexington. Yvonne is a year younger than I am and formerly worked at UK [University of Kentucky], as a, uh, primary coder for the Department of Medicine, at UK Hospital, just recently retired. CRANE: And I know that you have children. WIDES: (clears throat) ; We have CRANE: --uh, but what are their names and ages and the names and ages of your grandchildren? WIDES: Oh, I can do the CRANE: --' ; cause I know you have grandchildren-- WIDES: --I can do that. We have, uh, three children. The oldest is Alison, Alison Michelle. And she and her husband, John Kinningham, live in Barbourville, actually what we call a suburb of Barbourville, called Walker, Kentucky. It' ; s in Knox County. They live on family property that has been passed down, uh, in John' ; s family since the Revolutionary War days. He has the original land grant that he recei--that his great-great-grandfather, whatever, removed received for his service as a colonel in the Revolutionary War, hand-signed by George Washington. CRANE: Wow! WIDES: They live on--it' ; s approximately 700 acres. It' ; s never been subdivided or anything. So it' ; s still in the family. It' ; s really rural, uh, land, uh, mostly timber, some--probably some oil shale there. Uh, John is in the timber business. He' ; s also what' ; s called a landman. So he does that, uh, oil and gas, uh, lease title searches for, uh, oil, uh, and gas, uh, exploration companies. They have three children, Lily Claire, obviously named after my grandmother and my mother--And she is six. She' ; s in first grade. Uh, Joseph William--or, excuse me--William Joseph. He is, uh, five, goes to, uh, kindergarten full-time. It' ; s our only grandson. And then, finally, we have little Bella, Bella Jane. And she' ; s almost three. And, uh, she thinks she' ; s the oldest and should be in charge. Uh, second child is Brandon, Brandon Michael Wides. He and his wife, Brittany--uh, both nurses. They live in Nicholasville. Uh, both are nurses. He' ; s a nurse--RN at, uh--here at UK. Brittany is a nurse at Baptist. They have three girls between them, his from a first marriage, that didn' ; t work out, uh, Alison Michelle. She' ; s eleven, goes to East Jessamine Middle School. Uh, Avery Madison is Brittany' ; s, from a prior relationship. And she goes to Red Oak Elementary. And then Bristol Kate is our youngest grandchild. And she' ; s about six weeks younger than Bella. Uh CRANE: --uh WIDES: That' ; s what we got. Then we have a third child, uh, Justin Alan. And he currently works for UK Athletics, and recently finally got his degree and is actively searching for a full-time position, with all the perks and benefits that go with that. He does have benefits here at UK but, uh, uh, not as much as he would like. So. CRANE: Uh WIDES: That' ; s what we got. CRANE: What were your parents' ; occupations? Uh, I know you had a family business an --but if you could describe your family' ; s business or WIDES: My mother' ; s wou--would be called today a domestic engineer. I.e., she ran the family household. (clears throat). The family business that my dad and uncle started--uh, he--by education, he was a, uh, 1939 graduate, University of Kentucky, mechanical engineer. Uh, and they started a business in ' ; 46. And we' ; ll get into that, I think, I guess, a little bit later. But it started primarily as a scrap business and slowly evolved, over the years, into--into a structural steel, miscellaneous metals, and miscellaneous building, uh, supply company. CRANE: Go ahead and tell us about the, uh, scrap metal business or whatever it was, now, if you would, please. WIDES: As best--uh, let me tell ya, uh, from--from my perspective. Uh, they--my dad got back from the war. He had been a prisoner of war of the Japanese, uh, captured, actually, before, uh, the fall of Corregidor. Uh, and I do have some recordings of where he actually did some interviews regarding that. Uh, very interesting. But, uh--so he had some back pay built up, got a loan from my grandmother, uh--my maternal grandmother, Lily. And he and my uncle, Ed Wides, Edward Joseph Wides, uh, started, uh, a company called Wides Scrap Metals. And as they developed they bought scrap and then resold it, obviously, for a profit, which is what you wanted to do. And that' ; s what a lot of--(clears throat)--Jewish businesses got started, uh, that were in the metals business. Some are still in that business. Some sold those businesses to larger companies. But that' ; s basically how they got started. Prior to the start of Wides Scrap, uh, my grandfather, Morris Wides, was a partner of Morris Baker. So many people referred to it as Baker and Wides. Uh, I think that was the way it was--was listed. Uh, and that was prior to World War II. Uh, my grandfather, uh, uh, somehow lost his half of the business. It was my grandmother Leah who was the brains behind that, uh, business, as far as the relationship between my grandfather and my grandmother--who we called little grandmother, because she was so s--tiny, as opposed to Lily, who was just Grandmother. Notice the, uh, formality of Grandmother, Grandmother, no- not Pops, not anything else. Uh, and sometime during World War II, uh, Morris Baker bought out, uh, pushed out--I' ; m not sure how that worked--Morris Wides. Morris Wides went on to divorce my grandmother and marry somebody else. They lived here in Lexington. [keys rattle]. Never met the man. He died before I was born. Uh, but my name, as in most Jewish namings, Mark, was in honor of Morris Wides. The Edward portion was in honor of my grandf--maternal grandfather, uh, Edward Mickler. Uh, Ed Mickler--Edward Mickler and, uh, Skuller--Lena Skuller were brother and sister-- CRANE: --oh-- WIDES: --Skuller' ; s, uh, jewelry store. CRANE: Where the big clock stands, on WIDES: --still stands. And hopefully, it will con CRANE: --Lime--almost Lime and Main-- WIDES: --yeah--and hopefully will continue to stand. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Uh-- CRANE: --and that' ; s connection to the Cohens. WIDES: That' ; s the connection to the Cohens. CRANE: Okay. Uh, how did your family connect with the other so that' ; s the connection your family had with the--the scrap metal WIDES: That was the connection getting into and CRANE: --into the scrap metal. Okay. WIDES: --starting this business. I' ; m not sure what Ed was doing while, uh, Dad was off at, uh, World War II. But when he got back, he took what, uh, little money he had, uh, from that plus this loan and they started this business. Uh, and that was in 1946. The bu--the business continued, uh, until shortly after I left in 1990. About two or three years later, it--it passed away--went away--uh, which is another story. We might get into that a little bit. Uh, but it slowly evolved, over the years. As you buy scrap, you get new--newer than--than really old scrap. So they got some used beams. And you' ; d get a call from someone who would say, " ; Can you give us a beam that will support this, uh, roof" ; or--or " ; this wall?" ; or whatnot. And Dad, being an engineer, would say, " ; Yes, I can do that. I' ; ve got something here that will work." ; Eventually, he would get more and more calls for this stuff. So he would have to start buying new material. Uh, this material would come from either a mill or what was know--what were known, and still are, as steel service centers. And these are smaller entities. They' ; re--they' ; re a cross between someone like our company, Wides--what later became Wides Material Company, and the mills. Because mills have minimum orders that you have to place with them, in order to get material from the mill. So you have to be pretty big, at that point. And we w--as a company, were not that big. So we would buy from steel service centers, uh, L--in Louisville--there were none in Lexington--in Louisville or Cincinnati. And as we got into this, we found more steel service centers throughout the country that would bring stuff to us. And that' ; s the way we' ; d compete and get competitive numbers. Uh, then, as we got in doing the miscellaneous steel work that we were doing, scrap, instead of being the predominant entity of Wides Material, became maybe fifty-fifty. And we would start to get calls for--" ; Well, you can get this. Can you get this product?" ; or " ; Can you get that product?" ; I joined the company, uh, in 1968, couple years, uh, ou--after high school, still going to UK, uh, school of architecture, uh, and started working there part-time, started as a steel detailer and then gradually got involved in more and more, eventually into quoting projects, designing projects, uh, selling, and so forth. And we ended up creating what now would be called a contract engineering department or a fabrication department. Uh, but we would also do things like doors and frames and hardware and toilet partitions, reinforcing steel, uh, concrete accessories, uh, masonry accessories, even some wood accessories, anything that--uh, it was all basically metal related. Uh, we might be what you would consider maybe a Lowe' ; s or Home Depot, before there was a Ho--(Crane laughs)--Lowe' ; s or Home Depot. Because we had a lot of other stuff. CRANE: Different types of material. WIDES: Correct. And we would get large companies come to us for these other items. I was predominantly in charge of most of that. Uh, Ed was pro--predominantly in charge of the scrap. And Dad oversaw everything. CRANE: When your--(Wides clears throat)--the company first got started, where was it located, when it was-- WIDES: --started o--started, uh, uh-- CRANE: --in the scrap metal business? WIDES: --started o--at 700 East Seventh Street-- CRANE: --okay-- WIDES: --stayed there the entire time. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Uh, the buildings that were there when I left in 1990, even the original, uh, portion of the office area, is still there. It' ; s been covered up, expanded, grown, but whatnot--currently was o--It was bought in 1994 or something like that from Ed Wides and my father' ; s second wife--uh, who sold it. And I have no clue what happened with that money. But, uh, it was sold at an absolute auction, uh, because of all the damage that had been done to the property over the years, from, uh, uh, all the scrap and the stuff that was in the scrap, that had filtered down into the--the property itself. So we sold it at absolute auction, with whoever bought it understanding that they would be responsible for whatever PCBs [polychlorinated biphenyl] or, uh, solutions might be there that would need to be, uh, cleaned an and removed. CRANE: You mentioned that, during those early years, there were several Jewish families that were in the scrap metal business. WIDES: Correct. CRANE: Uh, and you' ; ve mentioned the Bakers. WIDES: Right. CRANE: Were there others? And how did your family connect with, uh? WIDES: There was one other, uh, was a company called Harry Gordon. Uh, I think it was actually called Harry Gordon Scrap Metals. And later it became Harry Gordon Steel. They kept the scrap end of it. Eventually, that business was sold off to a larger co company--(clears throat)--uh, the Gordons, I never knew Mr. Gordon, Senior, Harry Gordon. I knew some o--I knew one of the Gordons, uh, and Mort Norris, who was the son-in-law of, uh, Harry Gordon. And Mort ran the steel end of it. Uh, the Gordons ran the scrap end of it--and buil--uh, Mort built up a really good, uh, clientele. And that' ; s the business that, uh, exists today. (clears throat). It was originally started on Patterson Street. The city and state recently bought the property, maybe two y--three years ago, because of the Newtown, uh, Road extension, going right through it. So Harry Gordon Steel has since moved to--and relocated to Winchester, Kentucky. CRANE: Oh! WIDES: Uh, it is currently run, uh--owned and run by Ben Norris. And I' ; m sure his brother Phillip has a small part of that, as well, who also works there. But I would highly recommend that you, uh, contact Ben. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Uh, I' ; ll give you some contact information for that. Uh, Ben and I talk probably once or twice a week, uh, always have--so--especially since I' ; m in the business that I am now, not as much when I was competing against them. But, uh, uh--but, as to how those families got along, very cordial. (laughs). I mean, uh, uh, it' ; s competition but it' ; s--you know, you' ; re CRANE: --healthy competition. WIDES: Uh, for the most part, yeah, I would think so. CRANE: And doing some research on your family, I learned that your father had a role with the UK yearbook, uh, in 1939. What, if anything, can you tell me about his experience with the yearbook or his experience at UK? WIDES: He was a member of ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau]. Beyond that, I have no clue! CRANE: Okay. Did you know he was involved in WIDES: --no CRANE: --the UK yearbook? WIDES: No. CRANE: You might want to Google him. (laughs). Uh, there are some interviews. And there--there is some information online about him. WIDES: I have, uh, heard some of the interviews but only that stuff which, uh, related to his experiences CRANE: --in the war WIDES: --World War II experience. CRANE: Right. WIDES: So pr--I have nothing on the other. CRANE: Okay. What was your Judaism in your family like, growing up? How did Jewishness figure into your childhood? And what traditions did you follow? WIDES: Well, we were--I am a member of, uh, Temple Adath Israel. Uh, just typical. I mean, uh, I did everything that every other kid did, uh, played baseball, you know, did all the other stuff. But, uh, when it came time to get bar mitzvah--You know, I went to Sunday school every Sunday, uh, got confirm--bar mitzvahed there--uh, High Holy Days. Didn' ; t go to services regularly on Friday night, but fairly regular. Especially as Dad got--you know, we got older and so forth, I would go with him. Uh, still go--not as much. I' ; m not real enamored with the new rabbi. But maybe he' ; ll just have to grow on me. Or maybe--whatever. He' ; s--he' ; s just different. So, uh--I had, years ago, served on the board. Don' ; t do that anymore. Taught Sunday school for about ten years. Don' ; t do that anymore. Uh, mine is the predominant, uh, uh, acti--uh, involvement at the temple. Betsy also goes. My brother does not. Kids were not raised Jewish. Uh, my wife' ; s Catholic. Uh, they did go to Sunday school, uh, to a point. Uh, Brandon still has good friends th--and cousins around the country, that he contacts. He was very active in the Youth Group. I was very active in Youth Group, actually president of the temple Youth Group, when I was a senior in high school. So between my traveling with swim teams and my duties as president of the temple Youth Group, uh, I was pretty busy, uh, at the temple, as best I could. CRANE: Uh WIDES: --uh CRANE: I grew up with most of my Jewish connections at the synagogue WIDES: --corre CRANE: --and I su--and su suspect that you grew up with most of your Jewish connections at the temple. So what was it like for you, growing, uh--growing up Jewish in Lexington, attending the temple? Uh, did you ? You said you went to Sunday school. You said you had bar mitzvah. Did you socialize? And you said you were the, uh, Youth Group president. Di ? Were those your core friends? Did you socialize? WIDES: Basically. I ha--you know, I had a--a multitude of friends and so forth. The best man at my wedding was David Rose-- CRANE: --okay-- WIDES: --who we grew up with. Uh, we spent a lot of time together. But I spent a lot of time with, uh, my--wh--gentile friends, if you would. Uh, as far as, uh, you guys over at the--at the shul or, uh, synagogue, uh, yeah, the Rosenbergs--spent a lot of time with them--uh, even dated Joyce, off and on for a little while. Uh, a lot of synagogue members had dual memberships. Not the other way around. Not real sure why. But there were a lot of dual memberships. Attended a lot of bar mitzvahs and/or parties at, uh--at the synagogue. So, uh, you know, I had friends over there too. So. CRANE: Okay. Where did you attend elementary, junior high, and, for the record, high school? I actually know where you went to high school. But please share that. WIDES: Uh, elementary school, I started at the old Kenwick Elementary School-- CRANE: --uh-- WIDES: --on Henry Clay Boulevard--uh, later became Julia R. Ewan. She was principal when I was there. Went there for three years, in the fourth grade switched to Cassidy Elementary, then went to junior high, which, now they call that middle school, went to Morton Middle School, then on to Henry Clay. Now, what' ; s interesting about that was, at some point in time during that--that time, I think it was between--it might have been between my sophomore and junior year, they merged the school systems. But one of the things they wanted you to do was you go to the school nearest you, that' ; s in your district. Well, I lived on Montclair Drive. That' ; s the Lafayette School District. My parents had to pay a tuition of some sort for me to go to, uh, Henry Clay and continue my education at Henry Clay, which is, by the way, where my father graduated from. Had some of the same teachers he did. That was not a CRANE: That' ; s scary. (laughs) WIDES: That was scary. Tha--you know, they remembered him. (Crane coughs). Uh, and they remembered his twin sister. Uh, so they had to pay. The only caveat, besides that, was you' ; re responsible for your own transportation. There' ; s no school bus that' ; s going come pick you up. There are city buses. You can ride that or get a ride. So between the junior and senior year, wh--after that was resolved, David and I would drive, in that big long white DeSoto that he got from his grandmother. I don' ; t know if you remember that or not. But it was long, white. And it--it stretched from here to Nicholasville. It--it was big. CRANE: As we both know, there were only a handful or two of Jewish students at any school in Lexington-- WIDES: Um-hm. CRANE: --during our school-age years. (Wides clears his throat). What was it like for you, as a young Jewish male, during your school experiences? What impact did being Jewish have or have not, uh, on your school years? WIDES: I always thought I was kind of special, because, uh--uh, never felt segregated, uh, uh, ostracized, kept out of the loop, or anything. Uh, I was involved in several activities in the school. Uh, you know, you' ; re--you' ; re on the swim team. One year, I was, uh, actually on the football team, until I broke a leg. CRANE: Uh WIDES: Uh, band, Key Club. Uh, there were just lots of activity. So I never really felt it. There were times when, uh, uh--Passover, you know, I' ; d be taking matzo sandwiches to--to school for lunch. Because obviously, I' ; m not going be eating the--what' ; s ever being served out of the cafeteria. Which, I still don' ; t know what was being served out of there. But, you know, where the old Henry Clay was, now the central office building, a couple restaurants across the street, specifically, Clay' ; s, spent a lot of time there at lunchtime. CRANE: Eating those French fries and gravy. WIDES: Lots of French fries and gravy, lots of French--and Coke, real Coke. There--there was no such thing as Diet Coke or Coke Zero or whatever. Occasionally, we' ; d get them to pour some cherry juice in it. CRANE: Describe how or if you connected with the larger Jewish community in Lexington. You' ; ve--you' ; ve touched on that a little bit by sharing that you had friends at the synagogue. But what about Louisville or Cincinnati? Uh, what was--uh, ho how were your Youth Group experiences connecting you with a larger Jewish community? And what impact did that have? WIDES: Uh, because of Youth Group, I would get to go to Fort Wayne. I' ; d go to, uh, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, you know, and see all these kids from all these other towns, Terre Haute, you know, obviously Louisville, uh, and people that I just didn' ; t know. But they were just like you and me. And that was really kind of neat, going to--Went to OFTY 2, to camp, one year. Went to NFTY 2, up in, uh, Warwick, New York. Uh, gosh, that was fun. (coughs). Uh, and there were three of us that went from, uh, our little, uh, you know, Ohio Valley, uh, OFTY group. Rode the train, all the way up to Warwick--and back, two girls and me. And, uh, that was good. CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life or Jewish ritual, growing up? WIDES: Well, I' ; ll mention two. One was Hanukkah. My mother really decorated the house for Hanukkah. It was an elaborate holiday. Uh, and there were actually Hanukkah house decorating contests. CRANE: At the temple? WIDES: At the temple. And we actually won it several times. CRANE: Oh! WIDES: Uh, so I remember those. CRANE: What were the decorations like? WIDES: Just banners. It would say, " ; Happy Hanukkah." ; Whatever she could find at, uh, the temple gift shop, or what she could make. There was no Internet, so you can' ; t go online and find everything that you can find today. Uh, lots of blue and gold, lots of blue and gold. Uh, and I remember--And I would invite my neighbor from across the street, Pete Hemphill. You might remember Pete. CRANE: Uh WIDES: And he was my best friend, growing up, other than David. Uh, so he would always come over. We' ; d invite him over for the first night, to light the candles on the first night. And he always thought that was neat. Then Irene and Walter would always invite me over to help decorate their Christmas tree, regardless of when it was. And I thought that was kind of neat t--So we got to share that back and forth. So that go--that addresses a little bit about how it was to interact and so forth. Uh, and then the second, obviously, was my bar mitzvah. CRANE: And what was that like, for you? WIDES: Well, for me, it was--it was a little different. Uh, we had to transition rabbis, from when I started, to the rabbi that was the officiating rabbi for my bar mitzvah. Joe Rosenblum is who I started with. Lovely man. And then we got this guy named, uh, Rothman--(laughs)--Rabbi Rothman. And, uh, he was different. Probably would never have gotten through my bar mitzvah had it not been for another gentleman here in Lexington, by the name of Bill Shraberg. Bill taught me all the Hebrew that I would ever need to know and then some, got me through all the prayers. I spent many a day, uh, at the Shrabergs, uh, doing my Hebrew lessons. That' ; s where I learned Hebrew, not at the temple. CRANE: So, uh WIDES: So tha that was fun. And, uh, uh, I will forever be in my debt to--to Bill Shraberg for that. Uh, still see David, uh, uh--whenever I' ; m at temple, I see him, uh, occasionally will see each other socially. But there' ; s not as much interaction, I don' ; t think, today, on a deliberate basis, as there was, say, uh, fifteen years ago, maybe twenty years ago, uh, at the temple, when, uh, uh--There were a group of about six couples. And that' ; s where everybody was. They--we were doing everything, from trips to, uh, movies to dinners to whatever, here in Lexington. Uh, as we all got older, started to branch out a little bit more. And some o' ; the families didn' ; t stay the same. (laughs). CRANE: Uh-- WIDES: --so. But, uh CRANE: --uh, before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else unique we should know about your family background or your childhood years, that you' ; d like to share? WIDES: Uh, at the moment, none that I can think of. But should I remember something that I think might be interesting, uh, I' ; ll spit it out. CRANE: Okay. Let' ; s--before we get into, uh, your college life, can we talk about the pictures you brought? I noticed that you, uh--(Wides clears his throat)--we probably should have talked about them when you were WIDES: --uh CRANE: --talking about the business but WIDES: --I hope this doesn' ; t glare. Uh, and I' ; ll be more than happy to leave these with you. And, uh, just give them back to me when you can. CRANE: I will. WIDES: This first picture, uh, is a picture of the very first truck that my father and uncle owned. The gentleman behind the wheel is George. And, uh, George Jackson was the first employee they hired. And I remember Uncle George. That' ; s what I always called him, was Uncle George. And, uh, this is what they would go and pick up the scrap in. And this is what they would also take down the highway to Cincinnati or wherever they were selling it. (clears throat). Excuse me. The second is a group of snapshots. Uh, this is loading--We had a railroad siding at Wides Material, right there off Seventh Street. So we would load scrap into the railroad cars and then that would go to the mills. (coughs). You have to excuse me. Uh, so this is the first load being loaded. Uh, just some miscellaneous--of cutting the scrap and getting it prepared to go. You had to get it cut down into sizes that they would accept at the mill. Uh, this was a big--what we called an alligator shear. And it would just rip through anything, literally. Loading another car. And then, as I said, we, uh, slowly evolved into this steel business that we were doing. And this is a picture--and this building actually still exists, on, uh, Delaware Avenue. CRANE: Um-hm. WIDES: Uh, it' ; s where Room Service is now. And I got involved in that a little bit, when I was first starting out in Wides Material. So, uh--oh, wait a minute. No. This is the one at Kentucky Lighting. The one on Delaware was the second--uh, was the second one. And that' ; s the one I did. This is where Kentucky Lighting was--is, on, uh CRANE: --Winchester WIDES: --Winchester Road, which is, obviously, still standing. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: S CRANE: --thank you. WIDES: I keep these on my wall at the o--at my office. I work out of the house. CRANE: That' ; s pretty nice. (Wides clears his throat). I know that you graduated high school in June of 1966, and therefore probably started college that following fall. WIDES: Um-hm. CRANE: So in 1966, why did you decided to attend the University of Kentucky? WIDES: Got a partial, uh--scholarship help, uh, for the swim team. I was a swimmer. And it wasn' ; t much. Uh, I think it was more in name only. There--I don' ; t think it was, uh, much--uh, there might have been 100 bucks, if there was anything. (clears throat). And CRANE: --which would have paid a whole semester-- WIDES: --it was close-- CRANE: --back then. WIDES: It was close. Twelve dollars an hour, I think, is what it cost when I started college. And the--and the books were nowhere near as expensive as they are now, which, they' ; re darn near as expensive as--as a semester of school, anymore. But, uh, wasn' ; t real sure what I was going do. I know I had, uh, counseling meetings with, uh, Harriet Rose, who was a counselor at UK--I don' ; t know if you recall that or not--and trying to figure out what I should major in. I thought, well, to the business--should I get into engineering, be like my dad? I wasn' ; t s--I had no clue, absolutely no clue. I would have been better off not going to school. Uh, settled on engineering. So got enrolled in that. And going to swim practice a lot and doing other things. And my grade-point average that first semester was a 0.53. Now keep in mind I was an honor roll student at Henry Clay, Key Club, Beta Club, all that good stuff. But I guess Henry Clay was just that easy. Uh, or maybe they just gave me the grades. I have no clue. But, uh, probably partied a little bit more than I should have. The next semester was a 3.2. And it stayed about 3, 3.4, something like that the rest of the way through, until I decided I don' ; t need this crap anymore. I' ; m just going to go and do what I' ; m doing. Because I' ; m doing really well at what I do, uh, selling all this steel, designing these buildings. I don' ; t need to finish this last semester of school. What' ; s ? CRANE: --so you left before you--the WIDES: --I left before I graduated. S CRANE: --what were your--while you were there, what were your living accommodations? WIDES: Uh, started out living at home. Uh, later moved to an apartment--uh, or a house, actu--Hampton Court, with a friend of mine. I had transferred from engineering to architecture. So, uh, the guy was year older than me, school of architecture, said, " ; Hey I' ; m going to start" ; he was from Barbourville, by the way, which, kind of tie between that and my daughter and son-in-law--uh, said, " ; Why don' ; t we rent this house together?" ; Uh, well, why not? This is great. So there I am, out on my own finally, living the dream, working in the summer, going to school part-time in the summer to try to catch back up, an--and just get rid of some classes that I didn' ; t want to take during the regular school year, and then we were living in this house, this--on Hampton Court. And it was an absolutely gorgeous home. CRANE: Uh WIDES: --and keep in mind--we' ; ll preface that a little bit. Uh, in my Youth Group days, specifically my last year, uh, being president and traveling around especially the Louisville area and whatnot--and, uh, my family--uh, my mother' ; s family was from Louisville. Uh, got cousins who still live there. Uh, I met a young lady. And we started dating while I was in high school. She ended up going on to Ohio State. And at some point in time, uh, after I graduated--You know, I' ; d go to Louisville, spend the night. We' ; d do whatever we would do. And then I' ; d come back. I' ; d got a job as a lifeguard, uh, at a new pool that was just opened up for the benefit of the Greater Lexington Aquatic Club. But it was actually opened up--uh, it was called GLAC, Greater Lexington Aquatic Club, but it was opened for the benefit of the Greater Lexington Swim Association which was the first and only swim team in central Kentucky. There are several teams in central Kentucky now. The swimming accommodations aren' ; t much better than they were then. But we needed a place where we could get a dedicated space, dedicated pool, uh, more than what UK and the Y had. So my dad, along with three or four other gentlemen, pooled money together and bought the old, uh, Cross Keys YMCA CRANE: --uh WIDES: --which also had a--or Cross Key, uh--it wasn' ; t the Y then. It was just the Cross Keys. There was an ice skating rink there. If you--outdoor rink there, there was a pool. CRANE: Uh WIDES: They bought this place, uh, put a building over the twenty-five-meter portion of the pool, to enclose it in. And that' ; s where we all went for swim practice. But in that timeframe of buying that, uh, they opened the pool up to the public to get members in to help pay the debt, obviously. So I was a lifeguard. Uh CRANE: --and this is while you were in college? WIDES: Uh, this was be--this was right after high school CRANE: --oh. Okay-- WIDES: --of ' ; 66. And the reason I' ; m getting to that is because of the girl and then--who I subsequently met and married. Uh, and I' ; m walking around. There were three of us, uh, that were the lifeguards. And you can imagine a pool that size and only three lifeguards. But that' ; s all we had. Uh, that' ; s partially why I got the partial, walk on scholarship, if you will, because Wynn Paul was the general manager of the club who was also the UK swim coach. So. Uh, that' ; s how I met my w--my future wife. Uh, she was the b blonde on the side of the pool in the cute little bikini. CRANE: Sunbathing. WIDES: Oh, yeah. Uh, and I was--(coughs)--I was a little bit smaller than I am now. But then, weren' ; t we all, fifty years ago? (laughs). CRANE: So describe a day in--in your life as a college student on UK' ; s campus. Uh, clearly, I think what you' ; re telling me is that you had a girlfriend from the beginning of college on. WIDES: Correct. CRANE: Okay. Uh, but what did you do? Where did you go? And, uh WIDES: --typically CRANE: --how did being Jewish impact your day-to-day experiences on campus? WIDES: Being Jewish didn' ; t really CRANE: --okay WIDES: --uh, have anything--uh, there--there was not very much involvement. I was not involved with ZBT, which was the only Jewish, uh, fraternity on campus at the time. Uh, not sure why. But just did--My father was a member of ZBT. Uh, I was basically a--a commuter student, if you will. I would drive in, uh, try to find parking, like everybody else. It was even bad--it was worse then, I guess, than it is now. I' ; m not sure. Got my share of parking tickets. Go to class. Uh, if I found a really good spot--uh, as the years we--as a couple years went on and I transferred into the school of architecture--uh as you got into the program, you got a little bit--uh, uh, you got s--your seniority, and started, really, moving into that as a full-time, uh, course of study, you would be given a--an area--or you could, uh, stake out an area that would be your, uh, area for your design work, e et cetera. So that would be your base of operations. And I can remember, you know, uh, guys would bring in, uh, hotplates, they' ; d bring in coffee pots. Uh, you' ; d have your own, uh, radios there, for, uh, listening to music. Uh, some had small tape recorders. Because back then, you--that' ; s what you had. Uh, and that' ; s how we got through. And I would spend--I might park the car on Tuesday and not leave--(coughs)--get back to the car until, you know, Thursday or Friday. I would spend all that time there. Uh, I guess we smelled pretty bad. I don' ; t know. Uh, but, you know, when you' ; re in those design studios, it' ; s--you' ; re doing your other work, you' ; re going to the other classes, and then you go back to your base of operations. Uh, I probably spent more time in the Pence Hall library than I did in this library, at Margaret King. Because most of my course of study involved stuff that would be found there as opposed to here. Uh, and then maybe I' ; d go over to the Student Center, grab something to eat. Uh CRANE: --Mark, it was my understanding that, while you were at the University of Kentucky, you were involved to some degree in the establishment or an attempted establishment of the Jewish fraternity AEPi [Alpha Epsilon Pi]. WIDES: That' ; s correct. CRANE: Uh, can you tell me a little bit about your involvement and any others who--that you can remember that were involved and how and why AEPi came to be at UK or why it' ; s no longer there or ? WIDES: --don' ; t know why it' ; s no longer there. Uh, we got a--there was a gentleman from University of Texas, Dr. John Perl (??). CRANE: And, uh WIDES: Remember John CRANE: --I do remember him. WIDES: He' ; s the one who got it, basically, started, brought somebody down from national and so forth, and invited me and, uh, uh, other people from the campus, that I didn' ; t know at that point in time but later came to know, people like, uh, Ben Bayer--uh, uh, and then Bennett Bayer, later on--And, uh, found a house UK owned and we sort of cleaned up, made up. Some of the things I remember from that house--uh, reminiscent of what you see in the movie Animal House. I mean, it was, uh--there were times when it was kind of--you know, you look, uh, back now, it was kind of scary. Keep in mind I was dating Vonne, a at that point in time, and I had been. And I was more concerned--you know, I was going to do this stuff with AEPi but I was more concerned--I was focused on her and what I could get there--(clears throat)--young and stupid. But--uh, so I was really the only member of AEPi--And we did establish the--the chapter there. CRANE: Do you remember--was it Lambda? WIDES: --Lambda Chi. Or is it Lambda Kappa? CRANE: Lam--Lambda Kappa, I think, is WIDES: --Lambda Kappa. CRANE: Okay. And what year was that? WIDES: Uh, that had to be around seven--uh, ' ; 69, ' ; 70, somewhere in that neighborhood. And I remember, uh--You know, I was the only one seriously dating anybody. Uh, Johnny was going to, uh, dental school here. And he was dating anybody and everybody that he could, uh--with. CRANE: You could probably leave that out. WIDES: Leave that part out? Uh CRANE: --kidding. WIDES: Uh, he was having a good time too. Uh, and then, uh CRANE: --where was the fraternity house? WIDES: It was on Maxwell. The house is still there. I think it' ; s a sorority house now. Should have been torn down. But I think they--UK came in and renovated it. Uh, I' ; m sure we demolished it. I know that we went in an and did some renovations on the inside, as far as, uh, uh, making some rooms--you know, subdividing rooms and so forth, like that. And I' ; d stayed there for a while. I know Vonne went over. It was a really bad kitchen. But we used what we had. I know she went over and cooked some meals for everybody. And I remember everybody really enjoyed it when they heard that Vonne was coming over to cook. Vonne started out at UK, was going to school there, and went about two and a half years and said, uh, " ; I just don' ; t want to do this" ; and got--started working full-time--uh, and then ended up having a good career at UK. CRANE: Do--uh, do you recall, besides, uh, Benjy Bayer--and you--any other? WIDES: --Alan Stein became a member. CRANE: Okay. Alan. Who else? WIDES: I can see-I can see faces. Uh, uh, my memory' ; s shot. CRANE: You said Bennett? WIDES: Bennett Bayer, later on. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: Uh, he became a member. Uh, I was--I was the first married member. Because we got married in ' ; 70 and it was still--in fact most of those fraternity brothers were at the wedding. Uh, there was a lot of free alcohol. That' ; s why they showed up, I believe. But, uh, we even conti--Vonne and I even continued to participate. Uh, she would go over and cook meals, for, you know, a year or so after, uh, we got married. And then, uh--then it be--just became more, you know, uh, I' ; ve got work to do, uh, she' ; s got work to do. We had other things to do. CRANE: How did? Uh, you said that Johnny, uh, brought someone down from national. WIDES: He did. CRANE: Do you don' ; t recall who that was? Was it somebody else WIDES: --he actually brought CRANE: --from Houston? WIDES: --somebody from Ohi--it was from Ohio University CRANE: --oh, okay-- WIDES: --who was coming on behalf of national. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: I remember him. Uh, I can visually see. And I' ; ll probably remember in the shower, uh, two days from now, " ; Oh! That' ; s who that was." ; Uh, little bit shorter than I am, little bit stockier than I am even now, uh, dark hair. And, uh, he was a grad student or maybe a--was he a grad student or was he a teacher? Maybe professor at Ohio University. I know he was from Ohio University. But somehow, they got together an and brought this--brought this here. CRANE: Can you describe some of the activities, um, the formal activities, and role of AEPi on UK' ; s campus? WIDES: No. Don' ; t remember. I remember the parties. But those weren' ; t formal. Certainly nothing to the benefit of the, uh, UK, uh, community. CRANE: Uh, did AEPi interact with other, uh, Greek life on campus? WIDES: We did, uh, to a point. I mean, we--uh, we had a representative on the council, of course, uh, you know, did have to work to maintain grades. Uh, I know some of them did get involved in campus life, as individuals, not as, uh--(clears throat)--not as a AEPi member so much as--but being part of the, uh, IFC [Interfraternity Council], uh, getting involved there. Uh, Alan was a prime example of that. Uh CRANE: --how so? WIDES: Well, he got--he go--he did a lot of, uh, campus--well, I guess it goes back to what I just said we didn' ; t do. But he did, as an individual. But he was doing it because he was a member of AEPi. But I think--uh, I' ; m not sure if it was because he was a member of AEPi or because he just wanted that involvement. Maybe it was both--probably. CRANE: How long did the fraternity last on campus? WIDES: Don' ; t know when it ended. I really do not know. Uh, I know I' ; ve had correspondence, over the last twenty-five, thirty years, about trying to bring it back, and had a call, uh, maybe just two, three years ago, from somebody wanting to bring it back. Uh, just coincidentally, my cousin-in-law, who' ; s married to my cousin, uh, Barry Schwartz, served as AEPi, uh, president, uh, national president, several years ago, still sits on the board. But the call was not from, uh, Barry. It was from someone else. CRANE: What was the climate on campus? WIDES: --oh, I know who the other person was, that CRANE: --oh! WIDES: --that helped start it here, Steve Coller (??). CRANE: Oh! WIDES: He was--he was the other individual, in addition to this, uh, young man from, uh, Ohio University. So it was those three. (clears throat). CRANE: Thank you. What was the climate on campus like for Jews to become members of non-Jewish fraternities? And was ZBT still around WIDES: --I don' ; t think CRANE: --at this ti? WIDES: --uh, it was still around but, uh, uh--they never came after me at all. I never really went over there. Uh, I don' ; t know why--uh, on either side of that. But they were minor. I think they were still living in a house over off of, uh--was it Columbia, maybe? CRANE: Rose Lane. WIDES: Rose Lane. Excuse me. Rose Lane. But other than that, no, I don' ; t know. Uh, you have to understand the, uh, climate--political climate of the time. Vietnam was at its height. Kent State occurred while I was--UK, the burning of the ROTC [Reserve Officer' ; Training Corps] building here at UK. CRANE: That' ; s true. WIDES: Uh, you know, it was total antiestablishment. Uh, my hair, at that point in time, was as long as yours is now. Uh, it just--it was a different time--uh, in ways not much different than it is now. Uh, I think the, uh--the discontent was--was more vocal and, uh, certainly a lot less violent than it is now. CRANE: Do you think that had, uh, an impact on why AEPi di--w wasn' ; t really grounded or ZBT wasn' ; t as grounded as some of the other fraternities? WIDES: (clears throat). Not sure about ZBT. Because they' ; ve been around for a while, obviously. Uh, AEPi, maybe yes. Uh, it still is a very small Jewish community, if you will, or Jewish population at UK. So if you got two, in essence, predominant or almost exclusive, if you will, uh, Jewish fraternities, where you' ; ve only got maybe thirty or forty, uh, Jewish men out of the total UK, uh, enrollment, it' ; s kind of tough to maintain two houses--with, uh, so few me--numbers. And then we weren' ; t always able to identify, you know, and then go out and grab them. We did get, uh, non-Jewish members at AEPi. Uh, and I think, uh, over the years, as--you know, the other fraternities now are much more all-inclusive. I' ; m sure there' ; s exceptions. CRANE: Describe, uh--(Wides clears his throat)--any experience you had with other Jewish organizations on campus, such as Hillel. WIDES: None with Hillel. Tried it, uh, once or twice, going to the thing that was sponsored by the temple. And it was just--no. CRANE: Okay. Did you have relationships with other Jewish students, outside of AEPi? WIDES: Other than people like David Rose, who I grew up with, or Harry Cohen--uh, grew up with, uh, uh, not really. CRANE: Did your time at UK, your involvement with AEPi, uh, or growing up Jewish, did that that affect your--uh, your dating? Obviously not your marriage. Uh WIDES: --no. Uh, I was still your--your typical young male, other than I had a girlfriend. CRANE: What was your Jewish life, uh--what was Jewish life in Lexington like, when you were a student? WIDES: Still went to temple, uh, semi-regularly. I would make sure--you know, there for the holidays. Uh, you know, sometimes when I was at UK and you had, you know, holidays where you' ; d have to miss class, you know, some of the teachers and professors were understanding and some, " ; You' ; re not here, you' ; re--you' ; re going lose." ; They were not understanding whatsoever. Uh, there were times when, uh, I had to miss services, because I knew I would not--(laughs)--uh, get credit for the class or for the work if I wasn' ; t there. And they wouldn' ; t allow you to make it up. And I remember a couple times that we had gone to the administration to say, " ; Hey, come on. Uh, they got to be a little bit tolerant, to allow us," ; you know, " ; to go to Rosh Hashanah service" ; or Yom Kippur or whatever it may have been. And, uh, somewhat met with a, uh, stone wall. They just--uh, some were understanding, and understood it, I guess those who grew up more cosmopolitan. There were some that just, " ; You' ; re not here, you don' ; t get credit." ; In fact, you get counted down. And, uh, you know, you miss that class once and get--you lose that work, you don' ; t miss it a second time. CRANE: You' ; ve talked a little bit about your Jewish life after college, uh, and why you stayed in Lexington, in order to continue working--and that your wife' ; s family is, obviously, from here as well. WIDES: Um-hm. CRANE: Uh, and you' ; ve mentioned, a little bit, about your kids--you know, what it was like with your kids. They--uh, did they go to Sunday school? Uh, I guess WIDES: All thr CRANE: --can you describe your? WIDES: --all three di--all three did CRANE: --okay WIDES: --especially while I was teaching. CRANE: Okay. WIDES: When I stopped teaching, uh, I think they--uh, we had them there for at least one or two more years but, after that, it just stopped. Uh, like in any marriage, there are really good times and there are some times that are kind of tough. And it was at a tough time, for, uh, things that have nothing to do with being Jewish. It was just tough times with some other issues. And, uh, uh, I was just struggling--we were struggling just to keep the family together, to keep pushing forward, to get through that--those personal issues that we were having. And I' ; ll leave it at that. CRANE: How was your Jewishness different from that of your parents? Or for that matter, how is it different from that of your children, as well? WIDES: Uh, my parents were raised Jewish. You--you know, Dad went to temple all the time. I' ; m not real sure with my mother but I' ; m sure much the same. So you were expected to date Jewish, marry Jewish. Uh, there was a lot of, uh, discontent, if you will, one, because I was dating non Jewish and then became engaged. That b--made even a worse family situation, from my side, not hers. Uh, the rabbi at the time was Bill Leffler. And, uh, he wanted nothing to do with us, even went so far as to, uh, go to my future father-in-law and talk to him. Uh, my dad was, " ; Okay, this is what you' ; re going do. This is what you' ; re going do." ; My mother loved Vonne, so it didn' ; t really matter to her. She was much more open to that. My grandmother, uh, very much, uh, didn' ; t like it but liked Vonne. My uncle, Ed, Dad' ; s brother, was really pissed. They eve--Ed and Evelyn even had us over for dinner one night. And basically, it was to basically say, " ; You' ; re going be disinherited from the family, if you do this, if you keep going on like this. You need to stop this right now." ; We thought it was just welcoming us to the family type of dinner and it was the intervention, if you will. I guess that' ; s what they call them now. (clears throat). And I guess that was the beginning of the end with me and my uncle, with regard to, uh, being able to, uh, either inherit Wides Material Company or be able to buy Wides Material Company. My uncle was not a saint, by any stretch of the imagination. Uh, I' ; ve got flaws. Uh, not even go there with what he had, lots of baggage, lots of baggage. So it was rather sanctimonious, to me, with, uh, his attitude an and comments. Evelyn went along with him for a little while and then decided, " ; You know, Vonne' ; s not that bad. We kind of like her. And, oh, by the way, she makes great matzo ball soup." ; She makes great chicken soup. Sh- she fixes brisket better than anybody else in the family. You know. Uh, she kept a pretty good, uh, if you will, somewhat Jewish household. Uh, so it got through it. It got through it. So. CRANE: And your kids? WIDES: Uh, Alison, uh, I think she still considers herself Jewish. She allows her kids to go to--to church every--every week or every other week or whatever, because there is no other--there' ; s no, uh--there' ; s no other religion down there. There' ; s this little Baptist religion and that' ; s about it, down there in, uh, Knox County. It' ; s--so there--there is no Judaism down there, per se. But, you know, wh when you talk with her, uh, when you see some of her writings, uh, she' ; s very much more comfortable, I would think, acknowledging herself as--as Jewish than not. [Rustling] Brandon, uh, he' ; s now decided that, uh--although he still has a lot of Jewish friends and continues, to this day, corresponding with those that he went to, uh, Youth Group camp with for a couple years, still to this day corresponds with them. But he' ; s, uh--he goes to Southland Christian Church. So. And then Justin, uh, he' ; s not an atheist. I don' ; t think he' ; s an agnostic either. He' ; s just--it' ; s not a point of r reference. He' ; ll go with me to temple, when I ask, if he' ; s available. Uh, but it' ; s not a point of reference for him, whatsoever. CRANE: What has been the role of Israel or Zionism in your activities or your identity as a Jew? WIDES: Uh, I would say my annual contributions to, uh--on Super Sunday. Uh, sat on the board for several terms. CRANE: The board? WIDES: --of the CRANE: --Federation? WIDES: --Federation. Uh, was the co-chair of Super Sunday for two years. So, uh--And continue, to this day, you know, making my suppor--Never been to Israel. That' ; s on my bucket list. Vonne has no desire to go, whatsoever. But that is on my bucket list. Dad went two or three times. Uh, my sister Laura lived in Israel for about two years, on a kibbutz. Uh, and, when she came back, in, uh she came back in ' ; 75, when my mom got real sick, uh, to be with her, and then I think was planning on going back and then, unfortunately, never made it back. CRANE: I highly recommend it--th the trip. WIDES: It is--uh, you know, uh, uh, I watch with envy and read with envy what John Adland' ; s been--you know, his trips and Marc Kline' ; s trips and, uh, Steve Coller, his trips that he' ; s talked about. And, uh, I just have to do it. Uh, that' ; s--and I--I' ; m still physically able, that I can do the walking. Thank God for Jeff Selby and my new knee. Uh, they make parts that really work. And, uh, so, yeah, that' ; s--that' ; s number one on my bucket list. CRANE: How have things changed in Lexington, uh, since you' ; ve been here, as far as the Jewish community? Or do you see the changes? WIDES: Hm. I think, overall, uh, the community is much more accepting. Uh, I never felt discriminated against--there--uh, as an individu--You know, maybe, uh, the--maybe there were one or two people that--you know, just totally ignorant. Uh, obviously, it' ; s--it--uh, some things have changed. Like, you know, there' ; s Jewish members out at the Lexington Country Club. Uh, there' ; s even, uh, some, I think, at Idle Hour now, finally. Uh, these are clubs that, you know, prohibited Jews. And I can remember growing up an and in high school, you know, going to Cotillion. And, uh, well, they would have their dances at a variety of places, including places that--normal activities, I couldn' ; t go to. Uh, like, Idle Hour Country Club, they would have a dance there or Lexington Country Club. Can' ; t tell you how many dances I went to, both those places. Never an issue. Uh, uh, there was that discrimination then. Uh, I know, when, uh, we would have, uh--y--close the--the office for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, put the sign up out on the front gate, " ; Closed today for Jewish New Year" ; or Yom Kippur, uh, our customers understood it. And we had customers from all over central and eastern Kentucky. We' ; d put out a notice and mail it out a couple weeks in advance, that we' ; re going be closed. Uh, I know there were a couple businesses--I don' ; t think Baker Iron and Metal closed. I think they stayed open. I think Harry Gordon Steel stayed open. But we closed. And the customers were very understanding. Did it cost us business? I don' ; t think so. I cannot address that directly. But, you know, they seemed to understand. They wor--you know, when I would talk with people on the phone, no issue. " ; Tha that' ; s no pro" ; Totally different times of running business. There were no computers. There were no fax machines. Well, later on there became a fax machine. Uh, you know, no email, no instant message, no any of that, where you expect, you know, instant gratification like you have today. Uh, I think that' ; s one of the things that helps keep me grounded a little bit, is that, uh, I' ; m able to work with that but that doesn' ; t control me, as much. Because I don' ; t need as much instant gratification as a lot of my customers need. Uh, my kids seem to want it but they seem to understand. And they' ; re--they' ; re working through that and becoming much less of the instant gratification type. And, uh--and I think that' ; s to a--to the good. CRANE: Looking back on your life, what, if anything, would you change about your relationship with Judaism? WIDES: This is on the record too. Uh, I would have demanded that the kids be raised Jewish. I regret that to this day. I think it would have made them a lot more grounded. Because it somewhat leaves them wandering, with--l lacking that identity or any identity. Uh, that' ; s my mistake. And I' ; ll have to live with that. Uh, they' ; ve turned out to be pretty good people. But I think it could' ; ve been so much better, in certain respects. Uh, I know one of, uh, Brandon' ; s closest friends was, uh, Alicia Rose. They talked all the time--never dated. Uh, they were like brother and sister. And I think, uh--I think that' ; s--it' ; s my biggest regret. CRANE: Is there anything else that you would like to share, that I haven' ; t already asked you about, that this is Jewish history of central Kentucky, Lexington? WIDES: Y yes, a little bit about, uh, you know, growing up here in Lexington, fifty years ago, sixty years ago, and being Jewish here, uh, today. The business climate has totally changed. Uh, you have a lot of--there were a lot of values, I think, within the Jewish community, specifically in the Jewish business community, that poured over into other, uh, outside businesses, you know, gentile businesses, if you will, uh, that helped drive those businesses with things like compassion and understanding. Uh, you don' ; t have that today. It' ; s just--it' ; s just everybody thinks everything' ; s supposed to be black and white. And it' ; s not all black and white. There' ; s lots of grays. CRANE: And why do you think those Jewish businesses had that impact on the larger business community? WIDES: I think because of the--the values that they had growing up, the work ethic that they inherited from their parents--inherited from their parents. Uh, and it wasn' ; t just--You know, going along with work ethic and, uh, family ethics an and relationship, uh, it all intertwined. And I don' ; t think, to a great extent, it does that anymore, anywhere, in the society that we' ; re in. Uh--I wish it did but CRANE: That' ; s an interesting perspective. Uh, Mark, this has been lovely. I' ; ve really enjoyed spending time with you and hearing, uh WIDES: --we should do it more often CRANE: --yeah! WIDES: --off the record. CRANE: Off the record. (clears throat). I agr WIDES: Vonne wou--Vonne would love to meet you. CRANE: That would be great. I would like to meet her. WIDES: We would go have a glass of wine, or maybe a bottle or two. CRANE: Thank you, so much, for doing this. WIDES: Thank you for allowing me the time. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh047_jk015_wides_ohm.xml 2016oh047_jk015_wides_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh047_jk015_wides_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Title
A name given to the resource
Mark Wides, March 18, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
Wides describes his family history and relations in Kentucky. He provides a history of the Wides Scrap Metals company, established in 1946 after his father returned from World War II. He got a loan from his grandmother and opened the business with his brother, Ed Wides. He shares some photos from the original Wides Scrap Metal company, and talks about the process of collecting and processing scrap metal.
Wides describes his experience growing up Jewish, including his connections to the larger Jewish community through summer camps in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and New York. Although he used to be involved with Temple Adath Israel, including teaching Sunday school, he is not as active anymore. He remembers the holidays with his family and celebrating the holidays with his Gentile friends. Wides describes his experience as a Jew at the University of Kentucky during the turbulent era of the 1970s, and his role in the establishment of the Jewish fraternity Alpha Epsilon Pi.
Wides describes his life as a Jew in Lexington, his involvement in the Jewish community which included a tenure on the board of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, and his children's relationship to Judaism. Although the Lexington community was relatively open to the Jewish community, Wides describes the range of his family's attitudes, from delight to hostile, towards his marriage to his wife, who is not Jewish. Wides describes how the Lexington community has become more accepting of the Jewish community, particularly in business. He also explains how Jewish values employed in Jewish businesses, such as compassion, a strong work ethic, and a balance between work and family, has permeated to non-Jewish businesses.
Identifier
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2016oh047_jk015_wides
Subject
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Entrepreneurship
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Kentucky
Small business--Ownership
Jewish families.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Judaism.
Lexington (Ky.)
Discrimination.
Anti-Semitism
Antisemitism
Jews--Identity.
University of Kentucky
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/bed18463313902f4bc6c47b4f915d149.jpeg
ef8be14553e8ef41363e9ec06ce2c363
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Janice Doctrow
Interview Keyword
Jewish businesspeople
Small business--Ownership
Jewish children
Indiana University
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2016oh026_jk014 Interview with Janis Doctrow, March 7, 2016 2016oh026_jk014 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jewish families. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) University of Kentucky Greek letter societies. College students--Religious life Jews--Identity. Family histories. Worship (Judaism) Jewish businesspeople Small business--Ownership Jewish children Indiana University Janice Doctrow Janice Crane 1:|21(7)|51(14)|82(3)|109(5)|143(9)|163(11)|200(4)|230(9)|246(9)|270(7)|299(3)|318(11)|346(13)|374(1)|387(14)|409(14)|430(2)|452(14)|480(15)|501(10)|520(3)|539(5)|558(8)|577(11)|605(16)|633(4)|653(1)|672(2)|698(4)|721(9)|740(8)|770(5)|787(12)|816(2)|836(4)|862(7)|876(2) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253339052" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family and upbringing Uh, for official purposes, today is March 7th, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane. And I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, which is funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I’m honored to be here today with Janis Weisenberg Doctrow. Janis (Gay) Weisenberg Doctrow was born at Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky on October 2nd, 1934. Her grandfather immigrated from Germany and her grandmother was born in St. Louis. They moved to many different cities while they were raising Janice's mother and her eleven siblings including Louisville, Shelbyville, and Owenton, Kentucky. Her parents worked in the Owenton Department Store in Owenton, Kentucky that was owned by her grandparents. She also names her husband, David Louis Doctrow, and her five children. Cincinnati (Ohio) ; David Louis Doctrow ; Georgetown (Ky.) ; Good Samaritan Hospital (Lexington, Ky.) ; Janis (Gay) Weisenberg Doctrow ; Jeffrey Alan Doctrow ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Martha Jacob Steinberg ; Matt Douglas Doctrow ; Mindy Sue Heller ; Owenton (Ky.) ; Owenton Department Store ; Pamela Doctrow Gould ; Reuben Weisenberg ; Robert Mark Doctrow. ; Rosalyn Abraham Wiesenberg ; Shelbyville (Ky.) ; St. Louis (Mo.) Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.536456, -84.8418926 17 Owenton, Kentucky 314 Family's relationship to Judaism How would you describe your parents’, both your mother and father’s, relationship to Judaism? Janis' s father was orthodox and her mother was reform. The family would primarily only drive to Lexington for holiday services because of the distance from Owenton where they lived. She discusses some of the Jewish practices of her family, and names some of her many relatives. Janis's large extended family played a significant role in her Jewish upbringing because of the large family gatherings for Jewish holidays. Anti-Semitism ; Barney Miller ; Bernie Milller ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Clifford Abraham ; Edward Abraham ; Gertrude Abraham ; Harry Abraham ; High Holidays ; Isidore Abraham ; Julius Abraham ; Kosher ; Lerman's Department Store ; Lexington Dairy ; Louis Abraham ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Morris Abraham ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington, Ky.) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Owenton (Ky.) ; Passover Seder ; Purim ; Shelbyville (Ky.) ; Shelbyville High School ; Sunday School ; Temple Adath Israel ; Yiddish Family histories. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Worship (Judaism) 38.2120144, -85.22356660000003 17 Shelbyville, Kentucky 828 College years and Phi Sigma Sigma at the University of Kentucky, 1952-1956 Well, where did you go to university? Janis Doctrow attended Indiana University for her first year of college but when her close group of friends all transferred or moved back home, she decided to do the same. In her second year of college she attended the University of Kentucky where she joined the Phi Sigma Sigma sorority. She discusses the different aspects of her Jewish student life including her membership in Hillel, meeting other Jewish students, and the activities of the sorority which she became president of in 1956. Alan Blumfield ; Anne Leah Ruby ; Connie Goldberg ; Erle Levy ; George Spector ; Hillel ; Inez Ringel ; Jerry Bohn ; Jewell Hall ; Keeneland Hall ; Marty Solomon ; Owenton (Ky.) ; Panhellenic Council ; Phi Sigma Sigma ; Phil Frost ; Social work ; Sorority rush ; Student Union ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Indiana University ; Jews--Identity. ; University of Kentucky 38.0306511, -84.50396969999997 17 University of Kentucky http://nyx.uky.edu/dips/xt734t6f2721/data/0346/0346.pdf Phi Sigma Sigma The Kentuckian, 1956 1495 Jewish life in Lexington, Kentucky Um, we haven’t really talked about this but how did you meet your husband? Janis met her husband, David Louis Doctrow, on a blind date in Cincinnati and they continued to live there for 10 years after they were married. After Cincinnati, they moved back to Lexington, Kentucky where they raised their family. Janis and her husband were involved with the Jewish community in different capacities throughout their lives including as presidents of the men's and women's associations at Ohavay Zion Synagogue, B'nai Brith, and many others. She concludes by naming some of her Jewish relatives in the Lexington community. B'nai B'rith ; Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Betty Miller ; Camp Shalom ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Confirmation ; Council of Jewish Women ; Gertrude Abraham ; Hadassah ; Harriet Rose ; Ida Rosen ; Ida Waldman ; Israel ; Jay Abraham ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish youth group ; JN Shoes ; Kosher ; Lowell Doctrow ; Morris Rosen ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Richmond (Ky.) ; Sunday school ; Temple Adath Israel ; Zionism Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 37.9986288, -84.47181260000002 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue interview Janis (Gay) Weisenberg Doctrow was born at Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky. Her grandfather immigrated from Germany and her grandmother was born in St. Louis. Her parents later worked in the Owenton Department Store in Owenton, Kentucky that was owned by her grandparents. Janis' s father was orthodox and her mother was reform. She discusses some of the Jewish practices of her family, and says that her large extended family played a significant role in her Jewish upbringing because of the large family gatherings for Jewish holidays. Janis Doctrow attended Indiana University for her first year of college. In her second year she attended the University of Kentucky where she joined the Phi Sigma Sigma sorority. She discusses the different aspects of her Jewish student life including her membership in Hillel, meeting other Jewish students, and the activities of the sorority which she became president of in 1956. Janis met her husband, David Louis Doctrow, on a blind date in Cincinnati and they continued to live there for 10 years after they were married. After Cincinnati, they moved back to Lexington, Kentucky where they raised their family. Janis and her husband were involved with the Jewish community in different capacities throughout their lives including as presidents of the men's and women's associations at Ohavay Zion Synagogue, B'nai Brith, and many others. CRANE: Uh, for official purposes, today is March 7th, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane. And I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, which is funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I' ; m honored to be here today with Janis Weisenberg Doctrow. While I don' ; t really know exactly how it happened, I do know that my mother, Martha Jacob Steinberg, and your mother, Rosalyn Abraham Weisenberg-- DOCTROW: --um-hm-- CRANE: --uh, were longtime playmates and friends. So I especially look forward to hearing more about your family. And perhaps I can figure out how our mothers' ; longtime friendship began, while we record your story for others, so that they can hear. And I know you brought some pictures, so, uh, we won' ; t get to ' ; em right yet but, when we start talking about, uh, the sorority, you can show that and, when we start talking about your family, you can tell us a little bit about what you-- DOCTROW: --okay-- CRANE: --what you brou-- Uh, what was your name at birth? DOCTROW: T-- I have to tell ya? CRANE: No. DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: Yeah. DOCTROW: Janis Gay--my grandchildren love that Gay part--Weisenberg. CRANE: And it' ; s spelled G-e-y. Is, uh--? DOCTROW: G-a-y. CRANE: G-a-y. Okay. Uh, and when and where were you born? DOCTROW: Uh, Good Samaritan Hospital, in Lexington, October the second, 1934. CRANE: Oh! I was born at Good Sam, as well. Uh, I know that both your parents have passed away. Uh, but, for the record, where were your--what were your parents' ; names and where were they from and where did they grow up? DOCTROW: My mother' ; s name was Rosalyn Abraham Weisenberg. And she was born in Shelbyville, Kentucky, in 1910. And she g-- Uh, I think she lived there until she was outta high school. And then eventually they moved to Lexington. CRANE: Okay. And your father? DOCTROW: My father was Reuben Weisenberg. Oh, he didn' ; t have a middle name, I don' ; t think. He was born in 1911. He was born in Cincinnati. And I think they lived in Georgetown for a while, when he was younger. And then eventually they needed him in--in their business, so he went and moved to Owenton, Ken-- They lived in Lexington for a short while. Then he moved to Owenton, Kentucky. CRANE: Your father' ; s family lived in Lexington. DOCTROW: Uh, no, my mother and father-- CRANE: --oh-- DOCTROW: --lived in Lexington. CRANE: Okay. Uh-- DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: And you said " ; the business." ; What were their occupations? DOCTROW: Uh, my mother helped with the family business but she didn' ; t really have an occupation, I guess. She would help dress the windows at Christmastime. And she worked in the store on Saturday. CRANE: And where was the store and what was it? DOCTROW: Well, Owenton Department Store, in Owenton, Kentucky. They carried women' ; s, men' ; s, children' ; s, dresses, coats, suits, you name it. That' ; s what they had. And, uh, I think, when I was in the first grade, they moved to Owenton. And I lived there from there on. CRANE: Huh. Did your, uh, parents' ; and your grandparents' ; names change, when they came to America? DOCTROW: Not that I know of. My mother' ; s father was a stowaway, from Germany. He came over here when he was fourteen years old. And, uh -- uh, and I think my mom and dad both had the same name. CRANE: And how did your family arrive in Kentucky? DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: Who brought your family here, your--? DOCTROW: I don' ; t know. My grandfather was from Germany. He married my grandmother. She was from St. Louis. Uh-- CRANE: This is your paternal-- DOCTROW: --no, this is my mother' ; s. CRANE: Y-- Okay. DOCTROW: And they lived in St. Louis for a short while. ' ; Cause their first child was born there. They had twelve children. The next three were born in Louisville and the next eight were born in Shelbyville. So at some point there, they moved to Shelbyville. He was in the meat business. He had a--I don' ; t know if you call it a-- Well, he sold different kinds of meat. I guess he had a--whatever kinda house you sell any kinda meat in, in Shelbyville. And I do know that, when they moved there, uh, half o' ; them were still at home but they had to live in two houses, because they couldn' ; t find a big enough house (Janice C. laughs) to live in. And their original house, that they built while they were waiting, is still there-- CRANE: --oh, wow!-- DOCTROW: --on the corner of Washington Avenue, in Shelbyville. CRANE: Uh, do you have siblings? And, if so, what are their names? And if, uh-- DOCTROW: --just me. CRANE: It was just you. Okay. And what is your husband' ; s name and the names and ages of your children and grandchildren? DOCTROW: Oh, goodness. Now you' ; re really pushin' ; it. CRANE: That' ; s a test. DOCTROW: Hm? CRANE: That' ; s a test. DOCTROW: Okay. David Louis Doctrow. What' ; d you want to know? Just his name? CRANE: And you ju-- Okay. That' ; s your husband' ; s name. DOCTROW: Okay. CRANE: And your children' ; s names. DOCTROW: Okay. I have Mindy, Mindy Heller--uh, she' ; s married n--Mindy Sue Heller, Jeffrey Alan Doctrow, Matt Douglas Doctrow, uh, Pamela Doctrow Gould, and Robert Mark Doctrow. CRANE: Okay. And as you said, some of them are in Louisville--? DOCTROW: Two are in Louisville. Three are in Lexington. CRANE: Okay. How would you describe your parents' ; , both your mother and father' ; s relationship to Judaism? DOCTROW: My dad' ; s family was Orthodox. They belonged to the synagogue in Lexington. My grand--my mother' ; s family were very reformed and they belonged to the temple. And we would come to Lexington on the holidays and I would go to temple the night before, with my mom--and sometimes my dad would go with us--and then I' ; d go the next day, with my dad and my grandmother, to the synagogue. CRANE: Well, now, that was interesting. Uh, what was Judaism in your family like, growing up? How did it figure into your life? DOCTROW: Well, we lived like sixty miles away. So I think I did start in Sunday school here, one--maybe for one year or two. But, uh, uh, we just came on holidays. It wasn' ; t easy to come for anything else. Like we came for the Purim. I remember we came for the Purim carnival at the synago-- And then we came on the High Holidays. And that' ; s probably it. But we had a Seder. And, uh-- CRANE: --in Owenton?-- DOCTROW: --my grandmother kept kosher, in Owenton. My mother didn' ; t. But they used to bring the food in from Cincinnati and Louisville. Because she had a very strict kosher house. CRANE: Your grandmother on your-- DOCTROW: --my father' ; s mother-- CRANE: --father' ; s side. DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: And he li--and she lived in Owenton, as well. DOCTROW: Yeah. CRANE: Okay. Uh, I know that, uh, at least your mother came from a very large family. DOCTROW: Yes. CRANE: Uh, you already alluded to that. Uh, if you cou-- DOCTROW: --don' ; t ask me to name all twelve, uh. CRANE: I won' ; t. DOCTROW: Uh, uh-- CRANE: But if you could elabor-elaborate a little bit on the largeness of that family and s--describe the impact that his large family had on your place in the Jewish community. Were they all from Lexington, they from central Kentucky? Where did they all settle? And how did this impact your growing up here? DOCTROW: Mostly--mostly Lexington and Louisville. They all settled right here, or in Louisville. CRANE: And not that you have to go through all the name but-- DOCTROW: --I could-- CRANE: --just for the record, can you just throw out a few of your family names, so that we can make connections? DOCTROW: Mrs. Barney Miller was my mother' ; s sister. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: My other aunt was never married. Her name was Gertrude Abraham. And they--she had eight brothers. She had-- You want ' ; em? CRANE: Sure. DOCTROW: Okay. She had Harry Abraham, Isidore Abraham, Julius Abraham, Clifford Abraham, Morris Abraham--I don' ; t know how many that is--Louis Abraham, Edward Abraham. I don' ; t know if that' ; s eight or not. I hope so. CRANE: That' ; s good enough. DOCTROW: Okay. CRANE: Okay. Uh, what was the role of Jewish tradition in your childhood? Uh, like you said that you--you did Passover in Owenton and you came here on some holiday. DOCTROW: That was about it. Because in our little town, there was one couple who ran the Lerman' ; s store. And there was one lady who was Jewish, who owned the movie. And we were the only Jewish people there, so there was never anything. And, uh, on Passover, we' ; d have the Seder after the store closed, no matter what time o' ; night it was. So. CRANE: And what was it like growing up in a small central Kentucky town, with relatively no other Jews? DOCTROW: I had a couple cousins there. But, uh, it was great. I loved it. I thought it was fun. I knew everybody and everybody knew us. But I didn' ; t want to raise my children there. So-- CRANE: And how did the community react to you all being Jewish? DOCTROW: There was never a problem. One time, when I was walking to school, I remember some boy got mad and called me a dirty Jew. That' ; s the only time. I lived there from the time I was probably seven years old till I went away to college. That was the only thing I could think of. My dad was very well respected. CRANE: Uh, when you--when you came to Lexington, uh, were you connected with other Jewish children? I mean, did you have any other connected, besides--with the growing up Jewish during those years? Uh-- DOCTROW: You talkin' ; about when I came to college? CRANE: No, not yet. DOCTROW: Okay. CRANE: But just during high school, did you--uh, did you go to Louisville, Cincinnati, Lexington-- DOCTROW: --no-- CRANE: --for social occasions? DOCTROW: We came to the Purim, is--uh, every year. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: I remember that. But, no, not really. CRANE: And what did your family-- DOCTROW: --well-- CRANE: --teach you about Judaism? And how did whatever you learned impact the choices in your life? DOCTROW: Well, impacted that fact that I better marry somebody Jewish, or else. And, uh, it worked out that way. But, uh, it was just--growin' ; up, it was right there. And my grandmother kept kosher. And I went there every day for lunch. She lived up the street from the school. And I was afraid to mix up her silverware. And they spoke Yiddish. My--my husband still does. My hu--my father did, my grandparents. And I guess that was about it. Because there was nowhere else to go. CRANE: What was your most vivid memory of Jewish life or ritual, growing up? DOCTROW: Growing up? CRANE: Um-hm. DOCTROW: Probably the Passover Seders. CRANE: What were they like? DOCTROW: Well, we' ; d have-- I had an aunt and uncle that lived there too. And they lived in the same house with my grandmother. So it was just mostly all family. There was never anybody from anywhere else. So--uh, see, we were all around a big table. And there was maybe ten or twelve people. And like I say, we didn' ; t start till the store closed. Uh, it didn' ; t matter time o' ; the night it was. It got awfully late and we got hungry. (Janice C. laughs) But, uh, that was-- CRANE: --uh, you brought some--uh, a picture of Shelbyville. And before we go on to, uh, some of your more adult life, would you like to share the picture-- DOCTROW: --certainly-- CRANE: --and tell us a little bit about--? DOCTROW: Well, somebody wrote a history. It' ; s a pictorial history of Shelby County, Kentucky. And in it, they tried to put all the families. And this is my mother' ; s fa--mother and her mother and father and twelve children. She' ; s the baby, sittin' ; on the lap. And it says on the bottom that they were musically inclined. Her brothers had a band, I know, the eight of ' ; em. And they all played somethin' ; . And, uh, a lot of ' ; em worked in the butcher shop, whatever you want to call it. And they all went to--they all, I guess, graduated from Shelbyville High School--most of ' ; em. CRANE: And that' ; s your mother' ; s-- DOCTROW: --that' ; s my mother' ; s fam-- CRANE: --mother' ; s family. Uh-- DOCTROW: She' ; s this little bitty one. CRANE: Cute. That' ; s a large family. DOCTROW: Yeah. And I was an only child. And my grandmother used to tell me, " ; Don' ; t tell all the boys you want twelve children, because you' ; re gonna scare ' ; em all away." ; CRANE: (laughs) Uh, before we get into your college and adult life-- DOCTROW: --uh-- CRANE: --is there anything else that' ; s unique or that you' ; d like to share about your family background or your childhood years? DOCTROW: No. I just--I had very good childhood years. Like I say, I knew everybody in Owenton. Everybody knew me. And it was just fun goin' ; up and down the street and knowing everybody. CRANE: Do you know what the population was? DOCTROW: Twelve hundred. It still is. CRANE: Twelve hundred. DOCTROW: Um-hm. Very small family. And, uh, that-- Whenever we come to Lexington-- My mom was the baby, of course. So we' ; d have to go visit everybody. So we' ; d go house to house. And I just always thought it was fun. My uncles owned the Lexington Dairy. So I used to either go over there and watch ' ; em put the milk in the bottles or go to Bernie Miller' ; s and listen to records--while my mother went shopping. CRANE: Uh-- I remember listening to records, in those little booths. DOCTROW: Um-hm. CRANE: Okay. Well, where did you go to university? DOCTROW: I started in Indiana. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: Uh, my family wanted me to go where there were more Jewish people. And a lotta the people that I was runnin' ; around with, uh, in Owenton came to UK. So they felt that I should go elsewhere. And I had a cousin from Owenton that had gone to Indiana. So I went there for a year. And I made four good friends. Uh, we were--all ran around in a little group. (Janis D. clears her throat) One was a set o' ; twins. One was a girl from Louisville. The twins were from Cincinnati. And the other girl was from, uh--well, somewhere down in Kentucky. So we all became good friends. And we all went back the second year. At midterm, the one girl came down with mono. So her mother came and got her and took her home. Girl from Louisville was homesick, so she went home. The twins from Cincinnati decided they were leaving too. So I called up and I said, " ; I' ; m comin' ; home--if I' ; m going to college." ; So after a year and a half, I came back to the University of Kentucky. CRANE: Okay. And, uh, what year was that, when you started university? DOCTROW: Fifty-two-- Probably fifty-four. CRANE: And what did you study? DOCTROW: Social work. CRANE: And what year did you graduate? DOCTROW: Nineteen fifty-six. CRANE: Okay. Uh, what were your living c-accommodations at the university? DOCTROW: Okay. I moved into Jewell Hall first. And I had a Jewish roommate. And next door there was one room that was bigger. And it had its own little bathroom. And there were four Jewish girls in there. And that was a half a year. Then when that year was over, I moved into the bigger room, with the four Jewish girls. And--and then, my senior year, they built Keeneland Hall. So I moved over to Keeneland. Now, in Jewell, they tried to keep the Jewish girls together. We just had a little corner of the r--of the floor. Keeneland, well, I honestly don' ; t know if there were any other Jewish kids. I never really met ' ; em. And then I had a friend come from New York, my senior year. And we--we are still good friends and see each other. And they put her somewhere else. And she--her family knew somebody who knew somebody and they said she needed to be where there were some Jewish kids. So they moved her on our floor. So there were four of us in--across the hall and her. So there were like five Jewish girls each year, I guess, that I was with. That was it. CRANE: Describe a day in your life, as a college student. What did you do? Where did you go? Uh-- DOCTROW: Uh-- CRANE: Where did you eat or study? What did you to relax? DOCTROW: Well, we a--we ate in the mess hall, and whatever hall we were supposed to eat in. And we went to the Student Union a lot. And we went to classes. And we did homework. And nothin' ; special, I don' ; t think. We went to the ballgames, you know, whatever activities there were. CRANE: And what was it like, uh, socially, as a stu--uh, student at UK-- DOCTROW: --well-- CRANE: --or a Jewish student? DOCTROW: --yeah--we--we mixed, with the ZBT fraternity. They had us o-- every Friday they had a different girl over to bless the candles and have dinner with ' ; em in the fraternity house. And they would--they would call an invite you. And-- CRANE: --interesting. DOCTROW: Yeah, that was interesting. And then, uh, you know, I guess we had a few things together but not a lot. I mean, people dated people. But there weren' ; t that many. There were maybe ten girls and I don' ; t know how many guys. CRANE: Um, there was this--you were a member of sorority--a Jewish sorority on campus. DOCTROW: Phi Sigma Sigma. CRANE: And when did that start? Uh, what was it like? DOCTROW: Well, it was already here when I got here. And it was very small. I think we had eight, at the most, p--when I left. And I don' ; t know when it started. But I know, not too long after that, it just kinda disappeared. CRANE: Where was it located? Or where did you meet? DOCTROW: In the residence hall or in the, uh, Student Union. CRANE: So you didn' ; t have an actual house. DOCTROW: No. And we actually-- We had a friend here in town, Dolores Levy, who was like, I guess the advisor. She and Phyllis Scherer helped us out a little bit. And we--we met some at Dolores' ; s house. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: That was it. CRANE: Uh, do you know--? So it appears like, from some o' ; the background, uh, that I have found, that it began in 1952. Uh, and-- DOCTROW: --I honestly don' ; t know. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: I probably have it somewhere. But I really don' ; t-- CRANE: --and you don' ; t have any recollection of what happened to it? D--it just--? DOCTROW: No. They' ; ve contacted some of us, once or twice over the years. It seems like somebody was interested in tryin' ; to restart it. But it never worked out. CRANE: And why did you affiliate with the s--this particular sorority? DOCTROW: It was the only Jewish one. And I thought it was a way to meet people. And that was the thing to do. So. CRANE: And do you recall some of your sorority sisters, their names? Uh-- DOCTROW: Before they were married? Yeah. CRANE: Uh-hm. DOCTROW: Uh, Connie Goldberg, uh, Maur--uh, Dolore--not Dolores--Laurie--Levy , uh, Inez Ringel--they were all younger than me--Anne Leah Ruby. You got me. CRANE: That' ; s okay. How did the sorority interact with the other Greek organizations, uh, Jewish organizations and non-Jewish organizations? DOCTROW: Well, the non-Jewish organizations-- Uh, we had a representative on Hillel. But the only thing we ever really did was, when they had, uh, rush and the girls had to come to claim which sorority they got in, they had us run that, because we weren' ; t, uh, running for or against anybody. So we gave out the bids on--at the sorority time, just to help out, you know. I guess they couldn' ; t ask them to do it, so we did it--and got ' ; em-- The girls got a little upset--not our girls, the other girls, that were coming for the bids. So we had to tell them--or they' ; ll--show them that they didn' ; t make the sorority they wanted--or that they did. DOCTROW: But that was really--that all and the Panhellenic Council. CRANE: But your sorority was on that council. DOCTROW: Yeah. CRANE: Okay. Uh, and what about the fraternities? You mentioned that they-- When you were talking about them inviting you over to the ZBT house, were you talking about a sorority--uh, one of the--the girls from the soror--? DOCTROW: --well, usually. ' ; Cau--almost everybody--except my friend that came from New York, almost everybody else belonged to the sorority, there were so--uh, such a little group. CRANE: Hm. Uh, and were y--were there--at that time, were there Jewish girls in the other sororities, the--the--? DOCTROW: --I don' ; t think so. We did, uh--we did do s--a few things, like, you know, attend some Hillel meetings. But that was about it. CRANE: Were they accepting of Jews in the other sororities or fraternities, then? DOCTROW: I honestly don' ; t know. I mean, the only people I actually knew, mostly, when I got here, were the people, if they were in our dorm, on our floor, that weren' ; t Jewish. But we never interacted that much with the others. CRANE: What other student organizations were you active in on campus? You mentioned Hillel. DOCTROW: I think there might be one or two in that book. It said somethin' ; on the bottom. I hate to say I don' ; t remember but-- CRANE: --that' ; s okay-- DOCTROW: --I don' ; t. I did see somethin' ; in here. Uh, it said I was president o' ; the sorority, uh, and vice president of Hillel. I didn' ; t remember that. And one o' ; the girls was vice president of the Junior Panhellenic. Uh, I guess that' ; s all. I think I did belong to a social work group, uh. CRANE: What did Hillel do? Uh, what were some o' ; the activities? DOCTROW: Not a lot. We just--they' ; d just get together maybe once a month or once every other month. It was a very small group. Not very well attended. CRANE: And did you get together and have dinner or--? DOCTROW: I honestly don' ; t remember. I' ; m sure there was food involved. There' ; s always food involved. CRANE: Okay. How did your time at UK impact your Jewish identity? DOCTROW: Well, yeah, I gue--it made it stronger. Because it was the first time I really was involved with that many Jewish people. When I went to Indiana-- Well, I was--the-- CRANE: --uh-- DOCTROW: --the girls I was with were Jewish. But I was there such a short time. And they--we didn' ; t go to Hillel. So-- CRANE: --what was Jewish life in Lexington like, when you were a student at UK? And did you have interaction outside of the campus? DOCTROW: Uh, yeah, like through the temple. Sometimes they' ; d have things and invite the Jewish students or-- DOCTROW: We didn' ; t have a lot but, uh-- I' ; m trying to remember. That' ; s--good question. Uh, I remember goin' ; to a couple big dances and things. So they must have invited-- I know the fraternity had parties. And when they had their big dances, some o' ; the local people, that I guess had been, uh, involved with the fraternity--some o' ; the local Jewish people came to the, uh, ZBT things. And that was probably the most of it. CRANE: Do you remember some o' ; the, uh, fraternity members from ZBT? DOCTROW: Do I? CRANE: Um-hm. DOCTROW: Um-hm. You want to--? CRANE: --sure! Any special ones? DOCTROW: Uh, a lot o' ; -- You do-- You mean just from Lexington? Or you mean--? Uh, they were from other places. There was a Gerry Bond. There was Phil Frost. There was, uh, George Spector. There was Alan Blumfield. And I think--I think Erle Levy belonged to the fraternity. There was, uh, Marty Solomon. CRANE: Okay. DOCTROW: There was-- Uh-- CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: The rest of ' ; em, uh, probably were from outta town. CRANE: Uh, we haven' ; t really talked about this but how did you meet your husband? DOCTROW: On a blind date, in Cincinnati. CRANE: When you were in college or after--? DOCTROW: --uh, my senior year, the--the summer before my senior year. CRANE: And who fixed you up? DOCTROW: A cousin. CRANE: Okay. Uh, describe your Jewish life after college. Did you remain in Lexington? Did you raise your children here? DOCTROW: No. I got married right after-- Let' ; s see. I graduated in May. I got married the following October. We lived in Cincinnati for ten years. And then, after ten years, we moved to Lexington. So, uh-- CRANE: --and what brought you back here? DOCTROW: My dad' ; s businesses. They needed somebody to run--he had shoe stores in Richmond, needed somebody to manage and run those. So we picked up with-- I had five children under the age of eight. The baby was six weeks old. And we picked up and moved to Lexington. CRANE: Oh, goodness. DOCTROW: And when I arrived here, I had five aunts waiting at my new house for me, with food. So I had a lot of family here. CRANE: Uh, what was your father' ; s business in Richmond? DOCTROW: Shoe stores, JN Shoes. CRANE: Okay! Uh, describe Judaism in your home, as an adult and as a parent--your home. DOCTROW: My home? Well, we tried to raise our children Jewish. And they went to Sunday school. They were all--four outta the five were bar and bat mitzvahed. They were all confirmed. And, uh, we--we celebrated all the holidays. We still do. Course, it' ; s always at my house. And we have a big crowd. There' ; s twenty-two of us. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: So, uh-- It' ; s--it' ; s still about the same. It' ; s just that they' ; re s--a little more scattered now. So we don' ; t get ' ; em all home as often. We have twelve grandchildren, three sets of twins. And-- CRANE: --twelve seems to run in your family. DOCTROW: Yeah. Uh, yeah. My mom was the twelfth child. I' ; m a twelfth grandchild. And I have twelve grandchildren. So maybe that' ; s my lucky number. CRANE: Could be. Uh, how was your Jewishness, the way you raised your children, uh, what you did in your home different from that of your parents? DOCTROW: Well, it was different because, uh, you know, Dave and I attended everything at the temple, when they were little. And he was president o' ; the Brotherhood. And I was president o' ; the Sisterhood. So our kids were raised entirely different. Because there was no way for me to be raised--except for the holidays and keeping kosher, for my grandmother. There was no other way, except to keep tellin' ; me I was Jewish. (laughs) CRANE: And, uh, you were members of the temple? DOCTROW: Yeah-- CRANE: Not the synagogue. DOCTROW: --from the time we moved here. This--this' ; ll be fifty years we' ; ve been in Lexington. CRANE: And how did your children feel about their Jewishness in Lexington? Were they active in the Jewish community? DOCTROW: Yeah. They were all in the--the youth group at the temple. And, uh, they attended, you know, every carnival and every youth group event. They went outta town on conclaves with the youth group. And they interacted-- CRANE: --uh-- DOCTROW: --very well. I mea-- CRANE: --were there any challenges, uh, that you experienced raising your Jewish children in Lexington? DOCTROW: No, not really. I mean, our three best--three closest friends are Jewish. And their kids were all about the same age. So most of--a lotta what we did on holidays and things was with those families. CRANE: Did you--did your children experience any antisemitism, in Kentucky, growing up in Lexington? DOCTROW: Not that I remember. They had more with people at the bus stop and-- Couple o' ; those were Jewish. But, no, there' ; s nothin' ; that I can remember. CRANE: And how does your relationship to, uh, Judaism compare to that of your children' ; s now? Are they raising their children Jewish or--? DOCTROW: Yeah. Let' ; s see. Four of them--four of them married. Three married Jewish. Uh, the ones with the children, they' ; re, uh--they' ; ve all been raised--bar mitzvahed, bat mitzvahed, going-- The little ones are s--in Sunday school now, at the temple. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: They go from seven to twenty-seven. So-- CRANE: --wow!-- DOCTROW: --we got a bunch. CRANE: Yeah, you do. DOCTROW: But they' ; re all, uh-- You know, they' ; ve all been raised Jewish. And they know they' ; re Jewish. And that' ; s one reason we' ; ve had all the holidays at our house. So. CRANE: How has your Judaism and your practices changed, over--over the years? DOCTROW: Well, I guess you' ; d say it slowed down. I mean, we don' ; t go to temple as much as we used to. In fact, we--we really don' ; t go that often. I mean, we go durin' ; the year and for the holidays. But we don' ; t go to every event, like we used to. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: But I guess you' ; d say it slowed down a lot. But our fa--our family-- Let' ; s see. Outta the four in Lexington--no, three in Lexington, two belong to the temple. The two that are in Louisville are much more active. My son Lowell was just president o' ; the temple in Louisville. So they' ; re--they' ; ve raised their children completely Jewish too. CRANE: How is the role of Israel and Zionism, uh, in your activities and your identity as a Jew. What is it? Uh-- DOCTROW: It' ; s not a lot. Dave belongs to B' ; nai B' ; rith-- CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: --and the Brotherhood at the temple. And I belong to the Sisterhood. But that' ; s about all, at this point. CRANE: And what about Hadassah? You' ; ve been-- DOCTROW: --I' ; ve never been a member of Hadassah. My grandmother was. She was a life member. CRANE: And-- DOCTROW: --that was a long time ago-- CRANE: --do you have any kind o' ; relationship with the Federation--uh, the Jewish Federation? DOCTROW: Well, I was on the first committee to--started Camp Shalom, the steering committee. CRANE: What was that like? DOCTROW: It was great, gettin' ; it started. And, uh, the-- David works after the, uh, new rabbi at the temple. His mother was on that committee with me. CRANE: Oh, that' ; s interesting. DOCTROW: And, uh, we worked hard. And it' ; s turned out pretty well. My kids have all-- One year, I had seven kids at Camp Shalom. I had a--the assistant director, a junior counselor. And all the little ones were there. So we have supported it, still, over the years. CRANE: Do you see, uh, the Jewish leadership in Lexington--how it' ; s changed over time? Or do you still--uh, do you see a--a leadership in Lexington? DOCTROW: I think it' ; s changed quite a bit. I think-- Of course, I' ; d say there' ; s a lot younger people involved now. But I guess we were that age, when we were involved. But it seems to be a--maybe a stronger leadership. CRANE: Than it used to be? DOCTROW: Yeah. Because the Federation is here. It wasn' ; t here. We used to have a strong Council of Jewish Women. It' ; s not here anymore. CRANE: What was that? DOCTROW: It was just another organization. And, uh, we went and did plays at the schools and, uh-- CRANE: Was that a temple activity-- DOCTROW: --no-- CRANE: --or was it--? DOCTROW: --it was the Council of Jewish Women. CRANE: Huh. Uh-- DOCTROW: It was a similar group to Hadassah and the Sisterhood. CRANE: Not heard anyone mention-- DOCTROW: --well, it' ; s been a long time. CRANE: How has where you' ; ve grown up and how you have lived your adult life affected your relationship with Judaism? DOCTROW: It' ; s kept me definitely with it, completely. I never thought of doin' ; anything--or leaving anything--besides Judaism. My husband' ; s from an Orthodox home. And, uh, of course he-he' ; s probably stronger than I am on Judaism. But we--we' ; ve been here a lotta years and raised a lotta kids. So. CRANE: Looking back, if there was anything that you could change--is there anything you could change about your relationship with Judaism? DOCTROW: Not really. It could have been stronger, I' ; m sure. But between having all the kids and all the grandkids, we really haven' ; t had a lotta time to do too much more. CRANE: Okay. Uh, is there anything else that you would like to share with us, that, uh, I haven' ; t asked you about, something--maybe some stories about your family or--history or--? DOCTROW: I don' ; t know. I think you' ; ve kinda covered it. But, uh, like I said, my grandmother always told me, uh--had to marry a nice Jewish boy, and she' ; d pay for the wedding. And I guess she did. She was a very tiny lady. And I had a lot of other relatives in Lexington. CRANE: Who were they? DOCTROW: My father was related to the Krausses and the Rosens. Uh, my-- Well, that was my--his mother, my grandmother on my fa--m--yeah, my grandmother on my father' ; s side. Uh, Morris Rosen' ; s mother was a sister. Uh, the Krauss family isn' ; t here anymore but-- Tomter Krauss was a sister. So I grew up with a lot of family, in Lexington. CRANE: I know that my, uh, parents played poker with the Krauss-- DOCTROW: --probably-- CRANE: --uh-- DOCTROW: --and I think the-- CRANE: --a long time ago-- DOCTROW: --they had--she had seven children. So-- When we moved here, we couldn' ; t go anywhere-- The people used to say, " ; Don' ; t talk about anybody. Because they' ; re related to everybody in town." ; And we really were. CRANE: Uh, who all were you related to? DOCTROW: Both sides? CRANE: Um-hm. DOCTROW: Well, Harriet Rose, Vivien Marx, Jay Abraham, uh, Morris Rosen, Ida Rosen--" ; Ida Rosen" ; --Ida Waldman, uh--gosh--well, Betty--uh, Aunt Betty Miller, Gertrude Abraham. As I said, I had five aunts here. Shea Abraham were here at the time. You got me. But there were a lot of ' ; em. As I said, we could go to temple, we could go to the synagogue and, no matter where we went, there were relatives. So. CRANE: Do you have any idea how your mother and my mother became friends? DOCTROW: I know that they double-dated. And somewhere-- I' ; m trying to find the picture. I just remember my mother talkin' ; about your mother constantly, Martha, j-just little stories. And I can' ; t remember the stories. But I know that they double-dated. And somewhere, there' ; s pictures. CRANE: Uh-- DOCTROW: And I will see if I can' ; t find them. CRANE: I would like to see those. DOCTROW: Um-hm. They' ; re cute. CRANE: I' ; ll bet. DOCTROW: So. I guess they just met by bein' ; here in Lexington. You know. I never got to those stories. CRANE: You mean--? Well, uh, this has been lovely. And I thank you, so much. DOCTROW: Well, you' ; re very welcome. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh026_jk014_doctrow_ohm.xml 2016oh026_jk014_doctrow_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Janis Doctrow, March 7, 2016
Description
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Janis (Gay) Weisenberg Doctrow was born at Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington, Kentucky. Her grandfather immigrated from Germany and her grandmother was born in St. Louis. Her parents later worked in the Owenton Department Store in Owenton, Kentucky that was owned by her grandparents. Janis' s father was orthodox and her mother was reform. She discusses some of the Jewish practices of her family, and says that her large extended family played a significant role in her Jewish upbringing because of the large family gatherings for Jewish holidays.
Janis Doctrow attended Indiana University for her first year of college. In her second year she attended the University of Kentucky where she joined the Phi Sigma Sigma sorority. She discusses the different aspects of her Jewish student life including her membership in Hillel, meeting other Jewish students, and the activities of the sorority which she became president of in 1956.
Janis met her husband, David Louis Doctrow, on a blind date in Cincinnati and they continued to live there for 10 years after they were married. After Cincinnati, they moved back to Lexington, Kentucky where they raised their family. Janis and her husband were involved with the Jewish community in different capacities throughout their lives including as presidents of the men's and women's associations at Ohavay Zion Synagogue, B'nai Brith, and many others.
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2016oh026_jk014
Subject
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Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington
Jewish families.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
University of Kentucky
Greek letter societies.
College students--Religious life
Jews--Identity.
Family histories.
Worship (Judaism)
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video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/d87410cba61f541e3ed13758cd2ba88d.jpeg
36b60e22f504a1ae237d661d2b2670c9
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Stanley Saxe
Interview Keyword
Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington
University of Kentucky. College of Medicine
University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry
Jewish families.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh472_jk013 Interview with Stanley Saxe, December 3, 2015 2015oh472_jk013 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Minorities in higher education Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Religion Worship (Judaism) Discrimination. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Jews--Identity. Lexington (Ky.) Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington University of Kentucky. College of Medicine University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry Jewish families. Stanley Saxe Janice Crane 1:|21(1)|33(14)|52(4)|68(4)|83(16)|94(9)|102(12)|118(1)|127(6)|136(5)|146(5)|157(15)|169(10)|183(1)|199(12)|209(1)|219(12)|232(9)|242(11)|252(3)|263(18)|273(9)|284(10)|299(9)|310(13)|320(16)|332(1)|342(3)|351(11)|361(12)|371(18)|380(3)|387(15)|398(11)|407(6)|416(5)|427(12)|434(8)|443(9)|454(3)|463(5)|474(10)|483(10)|493(4)|502(2)|510(7)|521(1)|530(15)|539(10)|548(8)|556(6)|570(5)|580(14)|590(11)|603(15)|613(5)|620(6)|628(2)|635(16)|650(16)|665(10)|675(14)|685(1)|693(11)|701(7)|709(11)|719(12)|729(10)|739(1)|745(8)|754(1)|763(3)|773(2)|789(10)|801(2)|813(6)|821(2)|831(4)|844(9)|852(13)|866(4)|877(6)|888(8)|901(2)|911(1)|920(4)|929(5)|941(12)|952(7)|960(8)|969(5)|979(7)|990(17)|1000(4)|1008(7)|1016(16)|1028(12)|1037(10)|1049(15)|1056(14)|1066(10)|1078(8)|1089(1)|1098(2)|1107(4) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253338432" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 1 Family history and relationship to Judaism For official purposes, today is December 3rd, 2015. Dr. Stanley Saxe introduces himself and his family. He discusses his family's migration from Russia to America and his parents' life and work in the tobacco industry. He also describes his childhood in Malden, Massachusetts. Boston (Mass.) ; Congregations ; Entrepreneurs ; Gender in Judaism ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Great Depression ; Jewish communities ; Jewish practice ; Migration ; Orthodox Judaism ; Public schools ; Religious services ; Russia ; Tobacco ; Twentieth century Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. 42.430, -71.057 17 City of Malden, Massachusetts. 455 Anti-Semitism in higher education and American society in the 1930s What did your parents teach you about Judaism, and how did this impact your choices in life? From quotas limiting the number of Jewish students accepted to universities to the anti-Semitic rhetoric of public figures such as Charles E. Coughlin and Henry Ford, Saxe remembers the discrimination that he and his family experienced during the 1930s in Boston. 1930s ; Charles E Coughlin ; Education ; Henry Ford ; Immigration ; Jewish life ; Judaism ; News ; Newspapers ; Pamplets ; Radio ; The Protocols of the Elders of Zion Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Minorities in higher education 17 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/interview/henryford-antisemitism/ Article from PBS outlining Henry Ford's anti-Semitic beliefs and activities. More information: article from PBS outlining Charles E. Coughlin's anti-Semitic beliefs and activities (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevents/pandeAMEX96.html) 749 Jewish life at Boston University in the 1950s Where did you go to school? Saxe attributes his dedication to education to his parents' experience as immigrants and subsequent emphasis on education as a means to excel in America. He was unable to be very involved in Jewish life at Boston University due to his studies and his weekend job as a runner in the Market District. 1800s ; 1950s ; Blackstone Street ; Boston (Mass.) ; Boston University ; Colleges ; Education ; Food markets ; Hillel ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish organizations ; Market district ; Migration ; Outside markets ; Social life ; Work College students--Employment. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Emigration and immigration. ; Jewish families. 42.361, -71.056 17 Blackstone Street, Boston, MA http://www.bostonethnicmarkets.com/haymarket/photos/market1950sg1000.jpg A photo of Blackstone Street market during the 1950's. Photo reprinted in Boston’s North End by Anthony Mitchell Sammarco. Image found at http://www.bostonethnicmarkets.com 1134 Moving to Lexington in the 1960s So what brought you to Kentucky? Saxe describes his move to Seattle in order to pursue a post-doctoral opportunity in periodontics at the University of Washington. While in Seattle, Saxe was invited to join the newly established College of Dentistry at the University of Kentucky. He explains the qualities that convinced him and his wife to stay in Lexington, including the college's innovative practices and dedication to non-discrimination, and a thriving Jewish community. 1960s ; Boston (Mass.) ; Community ; Dentistry ; Education ; Family life ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish history ; Medical practice ; Migration ; Periodontics ; Relations with African Americans ; Seattle (Wash.) Minorities in higher education ; University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry 38.049, -84.499 17 Graves, Cox & ; amp Company, 325 W Main St, Lexington, Kentucky 40507 http://lexhistory.org/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Graves,%20Cox%20%2312.jpg?itok=weMv4z1S Image of local men's clothing store, Graves, Cox & ; amp Company. Photo hosted on http://lexhistory.org/wikilex/graves-cox-company. 2197 Adjusting to Jewish life in Lexington in the 1960s From a Jewish perspective, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make from Boston, to Seattle, to Kentucky? Saxes describes the biggest differences in regard to his Jewish practices between Boston, Seattle, and Lexington, particularly due to location relative to community centers and the values of each Jewish community. He also shares the story about how he was invited to attend holiday services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue by a friend when he first moved to Lexington, and he has been a member ever since. Chevy Chase ; Conservative Judaism ; Jewish communities ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Reform Judaism ; Rosh Hashanah ; Seattle (Wash.) Lexington (Ky.) ; Worship (Judaism) 37.998, -84.471 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue, 2048 Edgewater Ct, Lexington, Kentucky 40502 http://www.ozs.org/ Homepage of the Ohavay Zion Synagogue in Lexington, Kentucky. 2468 Employment and research at the University of Kentucky from the 1960s to the 2000s What was your position at the dental school, and, um, the specific areas of instruction or faculty responsibilities that you had? Saxe describes his work at the University of Kentucky, including his chairmanship of the department of periodontics, the establishment of courses in geriatric dentistry, and a major research project investigating the relationship between mercury dental fillings and the development of Alzheimer's disease with the Sanders-Brown Center on Aging. 1960s ; Alzheimer's disease ; Brains ; Dental amalgam ; Dental fillings ; Geriatric Dentistry ; Medical research ; Mercury ; Periodontics ; Periodontitis ; Sanders-Brown Center on Aging ; Silver fillings ; University employment ; University of Kentucky College of Dentistry ; University of Kentucky College of Medicine Universities and colleges--Research ; University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry ; University of Kentucky. College of Medicine 38.032, 84.508 17 University of Kentucky College of Dentistry. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10036842 PubMed abstract of Saxe et al's article, " ; Alzheimer's disease, dental amalgam and mercury," ; published in the Journal of the American Dental Association in February of 1999. 3114 Evolving attitudes in the Lexington Jewish community in the 1970s Um, I know that Dr. Wekstein was Jewish. What was it like for you to work with a fellow Jewish faculty, um, from the university? Saxe describes the shift to a more tolerant opinion about the role of women at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and his involvement with the establishment of a Havurah, or an egalitarian and alternative service, in the 1970s. 1970s ; Gender in Judaism ; Havurah ; Jewish communities ; Jewish practices ; Jewish religion ; Jewish tradition ; Jewish women ; Lexington Havurah (Lexington, synagogue) ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Role of women ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/havurah-judaism/ This article, from My Jewish Learning, describes the Havurah movement starting in the 1960s and 1970s. 3625 Discrimination in professional organizations and the creation of the American Society of Periodontists in 1960 As a, um, a Jew working at the University of Kentucky, describe any adjustments that you needed to make, um, if you needed to make them. Discrimination within the American Academy of Periodontology led to the creation of a new professional organization for periodontists, the American Society of Periodontists in 1960. 1950s ; 1960s ; American Society of Periodontists ; Consolidations ; Education ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Journal of Periodontology ; Journal publications ; Mergers ; Prejudice ; Professional conferences ; Professional organizations ; Racism ; University of Kentucky American Academy of Periodontology ; American Dental Association ; Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. 39.744, -104.987 17 The Brown Palace Hotel, 321 17th St, Denver, Colorado. Location of the first off-year meeting of the American Society of Periodontists. https://www.perio.org/about/AAP-history.html A history of the American Academy of Periodontology, including the merging with the American Society of Periodontists in 1967. Image of the official seal of the American Society of Periodontists: (https://www.perio.org/sites/default/files/1967-ASP-Seal.jpg). 4404 Jewish identity and more tolerant attitudes toward Jews in Lexington in the 1960s and 1970s Were there other Jewish faculty at the dental school while you were there? The University of Kentucky College of Dentistry's policy of non-discrimination, the relatively welcoming Lexington community, and the push for change by Jewish individuals migrating to Lexington in the 1960s and 1970s helped foster a supportive and active Jewish community. 1960s ; Education ; Fraternity ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish population ; Migration ; Prejudice ; Racism ; Social change ; University of Kentucky College of Dentistry Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry 17 https://dentistry.uky.edu/about-us " ; About Us" ; and mission statement of the University of Kentucky's College of Dentistry. 5278 Involvement with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass and interfaith and inter-community efforts While you were busy at the University, um, of Kentucky, uh, in the dental school, you were also very active in the Jewish community. Saxe outlines the many roles he has played in the Lexington Jewish community, including his time with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass. He also describes how raising his children Jewish was easier in a smaller community because the Jewish community was much more tight-knit and there was more interfaith and inter-community interactions. Board of directors ; Camp Shalom (Lexington, Ky.) ; Central Kentucky Jewish Federation (CKJF, later Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass) ; Community involvement ; Education ; Interfaith Council ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish women ; Jews in civic/social scene ; Responsibilities Jewish children ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 37.997, -84.480 17 Location of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, 1050 Chinoe Rd #112, Lexington, Kentucky. http://jewishlexington.org/camp-shalom Homepage of Camp Shalom. Established in 1968, it is the only Jewish day camp in central Kentucky. 5782 Lexington Jewish community's growth and change from 1960 forward So you've been here a long time. How has the Jewish community in Lexington changed over time? Saxe ascribes Lexington's Jewish community's growth to an influx of people moving into Lexington for jobs beginning in the 1960s and 1970s. Saxe describes his family's involvement in the Lexington Jewish community and their participation in Hadassah and Young Judaea. He also mentions Lexington's Jewish community's attitudes towards Israel, specifically the role of Lexington's Hadassah women leaders on a national scale. Community involvement ; Entrepreneurship ; Family life ; Hadassah ; International Business Machines Corporation (IBM) ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish women ; Judy Saxe ; Migration ; Population growth ; Summer camps ; University of Kentucky ; Young Judaea ; Zionism Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.009, -84.470 17 Location of the Lexington chapter of Hadassah. http://www.hadassah.org/about/history.html History of Hadassah from the organization's official webpage. Information about the Lexington chapter of Hadassah: (https://jewishlexington.org/community-directory/lexington-chapter-of-hadassah) interview Dr. Stanley Saxe introduces himself and his family. He discusses his family's migration from Russia to America and his parents' life and work in the tobacco industry. He also describes his childhood in Malden, Massachusetts. From quotas limiting the number of Jewish students accepted to universities to the anti-Semitic rhetoric of public figures such as Charles E. Coughlin and Henry Ford, Saxe remembers the discrimination that he and his family experienced during the 1930s in Boston. Saxe describes his move to Seattle in order to pursue a post-doctoral opportunity in periodontics at the University of Washington. While in Seattle, Saxe was invited to join the newly established College of Dentistry at the University of Kentucky. Saxes describes the biggest differences in regard to his Jewish practices between Boston, Seattle, and Lexington, particularly due to location relative to community centers and the values of each Jewish community. He also shares the story about how he was invited to attend holiday services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue by a friend when he first moved to Lexington, and he has been a member ever since. Saxe describes the shift to a more tolerant opinion about the role of women at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and his involvement with the establishment of a Havurah, or an egalitarian and alternative service, in the 1970s. Saxe outlines the many roles he has played in the Lexington Jewish community, including his time with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass. Saxe describes his work at the University of Kentucky, including his chairmanship of the department of periodontics, the establishment of courses in geriatric dentistry, and a major research project investigating the relationship between mercury dental fillings and the development of Alzheimer's disease with the Sanders-Brown Center on Aging. Discrimination within the American Academy of Periodontology led to the creation of a new professional organization for periodontists, the American Society of Periodontists in 1960. CRANE: For official purposes, today is December 3rd, 2015 and my name is Janice Crane and I' ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I' ; m honored to be here today Dr. Stanley Saxe. Dr. Saxe, can you just tell me what your name was at birth? SAXE: Stanley Richard Saxe. CRANE: And when and where were you born? SAXE: I was born just north of Boston in Chelsea, Massachusetts on February 1st, 1932. CRANE: Okay, and are you parents alive? SAXE: No. My -- CRANE: What were their -- their names and their occupations? Um -- SAXE: My father, Harry Saxe, worked in, uh, as a -- as a -- worked f-- initially had his own tobacco store, up until the depression, on the water front in Boston and then he worked for a large wholesale tobacco company, uh, until -- uh, his retirement. Uh, my mother, uh, who was born in the North End of Boston, Anna Pearl Kaplan Saxe, uh, was the oldest of eight children of Russian immigrants. And, uh, they, uh, after she married my father, or the -- when she married my father, they lived in Malden, Massachusetts, uh, for the rest of their lives. And it' ; s the city in which I grew up and, uh, went through the grades, went through high school. CRANE: Did your, uh, grandparents when they -- were they born in the United States or were they born outside of the United States? SAXE: They were born outside of the United States ; as a young married couple in Russia, the immigrated to Boston. And, as I mentioned, they had eight children, uh, which my mother was the oldest . CRANE: And were there -- did they change their names when they came over or were -- SAXE: No. (laughs) CRANE: They got to stay the same. SAXE: Yes, yes indeed. They were, uh, my maternal grandfather was Raphael Kaplan and my maternal grandmother was Sarah Rachel Resnick, who then became Sarah Rachel Resnick Kaplan. And actually I' ; m named after my maternal grandmother, Stanley Richard named after Sarah Rachel. CRANE: Okay. Um, and if you have siblings, what are their names and ages relative to you? SAXE: I' ; m the last surviving sibling. I' ; m the youngest at age eighty-three now. Uh, I had an older brother, uh, Irving, uh, a sister, the second born, Sylvia. The second sister, Roberta, who was the third, and I was the fourth child. CRANE: And what is your wife' ; s name? SAXE: My wife' ; s name is Judith Shapiro Saxe. CRANE: And the names and ages of your children and your grandchildren? SAXE: (laughs) We have -- CRANE: This is a test. SAXE: (laughs) We have three children. Uh, the oldest of whom was born here in Lexington in 1963, that' ; s Harriet Anne. And that means that she just turned, uh, fifty-two. Um, the second oldest, who is just turned fifty, is our daughter Natalie Rose. And our third child, who is in another few days, uh, will become forty-eight, is Neal Alexander Saxe. CRANE: And your grandchildren? SAXE: Yes. Neal ha-- Neal and his wife, uh, have one daughter who is Heila who is eighteen years old and a college freshman. And our daughter Harriet has two girls, the oldest is Heila -- pardon me, Heila is our oldest granddaughter. Harriet' ; s oldest daughter is Zoe, and Zoe is fifteen. And uh the second and the young-- her second daughter, and our youngest granddaughter, is Zoe -- Zoe, pardon me, Zoe is fifteen, the oldest of Harriet' ; s two daughters. The youngest is Olivia and she is now thirteen. CRANE: Okay. How would you describe your parents, both your mother and your father' ; s relationship to Judaism? SAXE: They grew up in an, uh, in an area where there was only -- predominantly only Orthodox Judaism and, uh, they were, uh, and the -- and the synagogue that my father attended, it was much male oriented. Women, if they did attend, were relegated to the -- to a far distant balcony ; it was an Orthodox congregation. And, uh, they were observant but not, um, not fantastically observant. It was a -- it was very consistent with, uh, with our neighbors. It was uh, um, uh sort of a middle of the road Orthodox Judaism, I would say. CRANE: And how is Judaism in your -- what was Judaism in your family like growing up? How did being Jewish figure into your life? SAXE: Uh, I grew up in a, um, predominantly Jewish neighborhood in Malden. Um, and most -- I went to public schools there, most of the children were Jewish. Uh, if they weren' ; t Jewish, they were Catholic. Our neighbors were Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic and it wasn' ; t until I was in -- or getting ready to leave the local junior high school, which was only a block away, uh, and went to the Malden High School, which high school at that time was three years, ten, eleven, and twelfth grades, and we had the students coming in from the two other junior high schools in the city. And it was only at that time that I had realized that Christ-- not that -- I thought all Christians were Catholic because all the Christians that I had in school and played ball with on the street were Catholic and, um, we referred to the non-Catholic Christians, those were to all of us, both who -- all of the people Jewish and non-people in our neighborhood as the Yankees. CRANE: (laughs) SAXE: These were the Yankee -- Yankees were what then that name became WASP -- White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. CRANE: What did your parents teach you about Judaism and how did this impact your choices in life? SAXE: We, uh, it was -- it was always predominant because it -- it really dictated your life and when I was a small child, um, discrimination in, uh, in education, certainly in the colleges and the professional schools, was widely practiced. And that includes Harvard and Tufts, uh, there were quotas for undergraduates and, uh, there were quotas for, uh, students in the professional schools -- dentistry, medicine, law. And, um, it was very real. Um, my -- the second oldest, uh, in my mother' ; s family, she was the oldest, as I' ; ve said, her brother Barney -- it was a real immigrant story. My -- let me digress a little bit and say my maternal grandfather, uh, they lived in the North End of Boston, where most of the children were born, he had -- my grandfather -- uh, a paint and glass shop, uh, store in the North End. The oldest boy, my mother never attended college, but the oldest boy went to Harvard and -- Harvard Law School, the third child, the second oldest boy, Julius, uh, went to Tufts Medical School. At that time I think that one entered medical school, or could, directly from high school. Um, my uncle Lou, the next, uh -- oh, and then the next oldest, uh, of my aunts went to, um, not sure of the school, it was a like, uh, it -- it was a college equivalent school like my aunt Esther went to Sargent College which is now part of Boston University, but which was a physical education school for women, for teachers of physical education. My aunt Rose went to the New England Conservatory of Music, uh, then my uncle Lou -- there were eight children -- went to Tufts as an undergraduate and graduated from Boston University Law School. So, uh, and my youngest, uh, of the eight aunts and uncle-- uh, seven aunts and uncles, Albert, the only one who didn' ; t go to college, uh, my grandmother died when he was in his early teens, and uh, he never went to college. He did well in school, went to Malden High School, went to Boston Latin School because he lived with an aunt, and then went into the Army in the Second World War But education was extremely important and being Jewish and getting entry into professional schools was always a factor -- that' ; s one aspect of Judaism. And the other that we were always observant in terms of Kashrut, in terms of seeing that, you know, non-kosher foods didn' ; t come into that house. Uh, but, uh, Judaism was something that you practiced, but we also know that there were -- it was also a time, for example, of Father Coughlin on the radio. I remember going next door where my Uncle Barney and his wife were living and they would listen on the radio to Father Coughlin. This was -- that only ended at the time of the Second World War, but in the late ' ; 30s, when I was like seven, eight years old, uh, yeah. So anti-Semitism was, uh, was a real thing, it was broadcast publically and you were aware of it. Uh, you know, in much of the time. CRANE: The radio show itself was an anti-Semitic radio show? SAXE: Oh, yes. Father Coughlin, and I think it was out of Detroit, gave these anti-Semitic rants and it only ended at the t-- at the beginning of the Second World War. Yeah, Father Coughlin g-- and Henry Ford, uh, Henry Ford, uh, out of Dearborn, Michigan, uh, funded an anti-Semitic newsletter, essentially. Well known for its anti-Semitic, uh, backing, yeah. CRANE: Where did you go to school? SAXE: I went to, uh, the public schools in Malden. Um, which is two towns away from Boston, going a straight line it' ; s about five miles from the state house. Uh, I graduated Malden High School, uh, I -- my college, uh, college of liberal arts at Boston University and then the school of dental medicine at Harvard. Oh, and--(laughs)--and then I was -- I was a post doc at the University of Washington in Seattle and actually, uh, as post docs in dentistry, we were enrolled in the graduate school. Uh, so I was officially a student of, uh, a graduate student at the University of Washington and do have a degree from there as well. CRANE: When you were in college, um, what involvement did you have in Jewish organizations on campus? SAXE: Uh, there was a large Hillel, but I wasn' ; t, um, wasn' ; t really involved. Uh, actually, uh, when I was in dental school and there was an event, uh, at the Boston University Hillel house, I went with a couple of friends. We mostly were interested in -- in the social aspect and that' ; s actually where I met Judy, my wife. At the Hillel house in Boston U-- at the Boston University Hillel house. But in terms of participating in the activities as an undergraduate, I -- it was very minimal. CRANE: Were you in a -- a fraternity? SAXE: No. CRANE: OK. And what were your -- why were you not active in Hillel or a Jewish fraternity? Was there a particular reason? SAXE: Well, uh, we were pretty busy. I, um, I mean, I commuted from home. I commuted every day, we had class work. And then I always worked, uh, um, beginning in high school, I worked in market district in the north end of Boston. And I did that, uh, when I was still fifteen years old. And we were -- as kids, we were hired essentially off the books because we weren' ; t old enough and, um, it was all day on Saturday. When I saw all day on Saturday, we didn' ; t start -- this was in the meat market, the North End was a big shopping area, uh, Blackstone Street was actually closed off. Um, meat markets lined one side of the street, wagons with produce came in backed up to that side of the sidewalk, pushed carts filled up the rest of the street. Um, some on Friday, but the street was closed off on Saturdays. And, uh, we worked until, uh, ten, ten-thirty at night. We worked, uh, more than a fourteen hour day. Uh, I was a cashier and, uh, we, um, and a bundle boy. We, um, as kids, there were several of us, we work-- a lot of kids who worked there. Uh, there were counters inside the stores, but there were also -- the street was lined with what were called cases or outside display cases, and were so busy on a Saturday, we' ; d take the glass covers off. So there were shelves, refrigeration in the back of it, and there' ; d be one or two sellers, adult men, who would throw -- work with the customer -- there-- there' ; s a constant stream of people walking on the sidewalk and, uh, my--(laughs)--my, uh, my brother and my older sister, Sylvia, would tell me that when they worked there in the market district, the police would come to have -- to close the stores down because they would stay open until after twelve o' ; clock and there were blue laws in the city of Boston that stores could not be open on Sunday. So they' ; d say, " ; Boy, you know, you finished at ten, ten thir-- it' ; s pretty easy stuff." ; But anyway, I walked -- I worked through most of my high school time and all of my college time, uh, on Saturdays so no -- we were keeping busy with other things then tending a lot of social functions during the week. CRANE: Well, before we get too much into your life here in Kentucky, um, is there anything unique or anything else you would like to, um, share about your family background or your childhood years or your college years? SAXE: Well, I think that in some ways it was very typical. You know, as I mentioned, my maternal grandparents, uh, came as a young married couple to Boston and, uh, and education was very important for all of their children. Uh, as it was for my parents, um, my father came to Boston at about the age of fourteen, uh, his mother had died when -- a few years earlier, his father had remarried, and there were relatives and, uh, people they knew, uh, so he came to, uh, the port of Boston. And, uh, it was in many ways typical of many of the families, uh, where there were immigrants and the, uh, in the late 1800s and, um, and with the emphasis on education, of course, we all -- we all, but you know, we felt strongly that it was because of the, uh, the Jewish background and upbringing where education was -- and learning -- was valued and, uh, we wo-- we, uh, we grew up in that environment and, uh, um, so in many ways it was very typical of a -- of our neighbors and other family members. CRANE: So what brought you to Kentucky? SAXE: I mentioned that, um, I was a post doc at the University of Washington in Seattle and, um, why did I go to Seattle from New England and from the Boston area? The -- let me -- I' ; ll tell you an interesting story. When I told my mother in, uh, in 1958, when I finished dental school and Judy and I were married and Judy was out of college, uh, I said my -- to my mother, " ; We' ; re going to go to Washington." ; And she said, " ; Why so far away?" ; Thinking, of course, as most people in the area did, the District of Columbia because, uh, certainly at the end of the Second World War, when I was only thirteen, and the new Boston I-- Logan International Airport was created in Boston harbor, Boston was referred to -- they -- they advertise it as not just the hub, meaning the hub of New England, but the hub of the air universe. Now Boston was the center, and it was reinforced -- I mentioned the name of a couple of the colleges there, but there were a lot of colleges and universities and a lot of people came into Boston in order to attend school. Uh, the major hospitals were there, uh, the Mass General, the Ether Dome was known because in the 1840s the first use of ether -- that was it. If you -- that was the educational cultural center--(laughs)--certainly of the United States, as far as we were exposed to in the Boston area. And if you wanted to go to school, the -- you went to school in the Boston area ; few people left to do that that we knew of. So when I told my mother we' ; re going to go to Washington, she' ; s thinking Washington D.C. and why do you have to go so far away when most everything is right here in, uh, in Boston, in the area. And, uh, why did I go 3,000 miles away? Because my teacher, uh, at Harvard, who was teaching periodontics, uh, Paul Goldhaber, well I' ; m not sure he was even a regular faculty, he may have been only been a post-doctoral fellow at the time when I was in school, but within a few years later he not only rose in the ranks, he was the dean for many, many years, uh, at Harvard. Actually, he was the first Jewish dean ever in Harvard University, and he knew that. But, uh, I -- my -- his teacher at Columbia University was going out to University of Washington to set up a new program, a federally funded program in periodontics, the idea that would be a program that would foster clinician scholars, it would be researchers, and teachers, as well as practitioners in the specialty. And, uh, I, uh, I spoke to the, uh, it was Saul Schluger who was at Columbia University, I called him before he -- he left New York City to start that program during my last year in dental school. And--(laughs)--and, uh, he was quite a character and this great booming voice came out over the telephone and said, " ; Yes, send for an application. You' ; re the type of student we want." ; And I was convinced that' ; s the only place I wanted to go, and Judy and I went out there and I went out there with the idea I' ; d be there two years, at that time the post-doctoral programs are only two years in length, they' ; re three years now, then after two years I' ; d return east, no doubt to New England. Um, we didn' ; t because--(laughs)--I ended up on the faculty after I -- when I finished the program. Um, and, um, uh, and then was on the faculty for the next two years, uh, until I got a call one day, uh, here from Lexington about, uh, the new school being created at the University of Kentucky. CRANE: Wow. Okay. What, um, can you describe the considerations in moving here? Especially any discussions that you may have had about Jewish life in Lexington at the time? SAXE: Yeah. Uh, -- CRANE: Why did you come here? SAXE: Uh, in our fourth year in Seattle, I was, um, with my second year as a faculty member--(clears throat)--excuse me, and, uh, Judy, um, after our first year there s-- in Seattle, started the school of social working thinking that she might -- that she wouldn' ; t finish because it would -- would be at the end of our two years in Seattle, excuse me. But when I was in -- then when I was a -- was on the faculty, she went and finished the school of social work, and in our fourth year began work as a social worker at the Jewish Family Service in Seattle, where she was hired because she had a placement there. And, uh, so in our fourth year in Seattle, where Judy' ; s working, I' ; m working, we decided we really liked living in Seattle and we were going to, uh, to stay there. And, uh, but we lived in a -- in a little, but nice, apartment. We said that maybe we should buy a little house ; the big thing in Seattle at that time, and still was, what they called single unit detached dwellings. You would just buy a little house, but if we buy a house, we have no furniture. We never bought furniture, uh, that we would -- as if we were going to stay there. So we went and we bought, um, Danish modern couch from the store -- a well-known furniture store in Seattle and, um, about a week after the couch was delivered, I got this telephone call, uh, inviting me to come out, uh, to Lexington. And at that time, I had to make a couple of decisions in Seattle at the University of Washington, university -- the school was only about ten years old when I got there and it was still developing the medical center. University of Washington Medical Center. And, um, there was -- I was asked about heading a new hospital dental service, or there was this concept about -- and I -- about -- that was coming out -- promoted by one particular person in Salt Lake City who brought it to Seattle and was to consider the fact that, uh, the patient was really going to be supine, the dentist was going to sit down on one side of the patient, and assistant would be seated on the other side and would hand instruments to the dentist, but the instruments would be prepared in a package for the particular procedure, and I wasn' ; t so sure about that because I was trained as a surgeon and you stood up. And if a dentist sat down, the dentist reached out to a cabinet on the side of the, uh, next to the dentist and took out a -- perhaps a mirror and put it on this bracket table in front of the patient and then reached for another instrument and put that there -- the dentist selected his own instruments, you know they were all male, so it' ; s his, and most all the assistants were female. And this concept of sit down dentistry, uh, to go ahead and move on that -- so I had our stay in the department of periodontics, and then when I got the call from the University of Kentucky, that sounded rather interesting because the concept was things are going to be different than have been done in conventional dental schools up to that time. So I came out here to Lexington to visit and stayed here several days, and the exciting thing about the new -- this -- there were five people who have been doing the planning for the college of dentistry, led by Al Morris who had been appointed dean, who had come from the University of Pennsylvania. And that was the exciting aspect. Students were going to be treated respectfully, their -- even though there' ; s a faculty and a student relationship where colleague' ; s respect for the student, also the fact that periodontics would be in the first year of the curriculum, that is students would see patients in the first year of the curriculum and patients with teeth. In most dental schools at that time, the first patient that a student would see -- not in the first year necessarily, maybe the second year, most often the third year -- would be a person who was edentulous, who had no teeth. I guess that feeling was that the student could do no harm, or couldn' ; t do much harm. And this -- here at Kentucky, the idea was that preservation of the dentition was the most important thing and the st-- the dental student would be -- have contact with patients at -- immediately. At very beginning of, uh, their time in dental school. Uh, and, uh, students -- and the stories were told at that time and about other dental schools, some of them not too -- in adjoining states, that when the class -- the entering class first met, a person at the head of the room would say to them, " ; Look to the right, and look to your left because, uh, in a year, next year, one of you won' ; t be here." ; And that was, uh, not a rarity where it' ; s more students were taken into an entering class and whoever could survive, you know, saying that possibly only two thirds of them would survive and become second year students. So the concept of Kentucky, we' ; re here to keep students in school, to see that they learn, that their colleagues -- and have a concept of dentistry on -- on prevention and on the best possible technical care that there could be. It was very exciting because things were going to be really different from other, uh, from other dental schools. Uh, this is in, uh, early, early 1962, when I came to visit. Um, so one day, and I was here for several days, so one day I borrowed a car and drove down, and this was very important, I drove down Rose Street and Rose Street ended at Main Street, and there was the Mammoth Garage, which some people may remember--(laughter)--I parked the car in the Mammoth Garage and -- and then later I realized where -- where I -- where I was walking. I walked on what the north side of Main Street and I went in and out of every store and I -- until I got to what is Broadway, and then just the downtown area changed and I looked to see who was riding where on those old green crumley American buses that -- there were two way traffic on Main Street, crossed Main Street to the south side, went in and out of every store and at one point I went in to a men' ; s clothing store and I didn' ; t remember the name, but I later learned it was Graves Cox. And as you walked in, you could see it was a very nice men' ; s clothing store, quality men' ; s clothing store, and as was conventional with most men' ; s clothing stores, at -- one walked in, and the very beginning there would be a counter, glass cases where, uh, accessories would be sold -- neck ties, cufflinks, small items -- and behind the counter there was a middle aged black man dressed in a suit, coat, coat, and tie -- and, uh, and I looked around and I -- it was very significant. Here is a black clerk in a very nice clothing store up front meeting the public and that had a very, very profound effect. Some years later, I found out from a Lexington resident, and then not so long ago actually spoke with Joe Graves whose father owned the store with Mr. Cox and Joe had worked in the store, and I found out that this was a very unique situation ; this was a black person who was an employee at Graves Cox, he went off to medical school, uh, out of Lexington, came back because his wife was ill, and he got a job with -- then I think is when he began working for Graves Cox, and not as a clerk, and, uh, he was going to leave because he had a job in the U.S. Post Office, but Mr. Graves thought he was a very good employee and did not want him to leave and promoted him, uh, to a sales clerk job up front and he did very, very well. Uh, but it was a unique situation due to the Graves family, uh, and that -- but that one single incident, when I thought, " ; Well," ; --(laughs)--with a sample of no less than one, but I thought, " ; Ah, this is -- this -- this probably is the norm." ; And that, uh, and Judy and I decided that we could live in Lexington ; we didn' ; t expect to be here long. I told Judy went I went back that if we were to go to Kentucky, because we had to make a decision of what we would do in Seattle or come to Kentucky, we would be there at least -- this is now talking in Seattle -- we' ; d be there at least two years. You do something one year, you see how you can do it better the second year. And I said it could stretch out, we could be there three years. And if it really stretched out, we could be there four years. We had already now four years in Seattle, and then we' ; re off to the next place. Well--(laughs)--we had no children, uh, for, uh, until we came to Kentucky. Our three children were all born in Ken-- Lexington, and, uh, when the time came about accepting an offer to go elsewhere and the kids were still small, we really liked living in Lexington. Um, and, uh, this was in one particular offer when the kids were three, five, and seven, uh, to go back to Boston to my old dental school to head the department there in my specialty area. And, um, I had a Massachusetts dental license, I knew the area, I -- it was easy enough to do. But we really liked Lexington, and we decided that -- that we would stay. Actually, the house we live in now, some -- and have lived in for forty years now, we said, well, if we stayed in Lexington, we would build a house on the lot. We had bought a lot in the late 1960s on, uh, on the lake, on Lakeside Drive here in Lexington and we, uh, we said, " ; OK, we' ; ll do that." ; And it took a few years, and we didn' ; t move in until 1975, but we' ; ve still been in the house. But it was the, um, what brought us to Lexington was the attraction of the dental school and the uniqueness of the dental school which truly was unique and we did a lot of good things in those early years that gained a lot of national attention. But what kept us in Lexington, uh, this is now fifty-three years later, and I retired over eighteen years ago when I turned sixty-five, was the community. Uh, the entire Lexington community, including the, uh, the Jewish community. We really have enjoyed living in Lexington and, uh, and that is what has kept us here. CRANE: And we' ; re glad you came. From a Jewish perspective, what was the biggest adjustment that you had to make from Boston to Seattle to Kentucky? SAXE: Uh, Seattle was, um, well when I -- when I lived in Boston, we lived -- as I said, I lived in Malden, a community of some 60,000, north of the city, so it, uh, and we traveled in even though it was only a few miles away into what was called, you know, town. Or in town, which was Boston. So I was living in a -- in a smaller community, and in Seattle we lived in the city, uh, and we did attend, uh, particularly after, uh, my student days, uh, uh, a con-- a small, new congregation that was very friendly and absolutely was a Reform congregation north of the University of Washington. But coming to Lexington, so, well I' ; ll tell you a little story--(laughs)--you want another anecdote. We came, uh, like the first of September for the, uh, the beginning of the new year, beginning of new academic year, and one day, and this was early one, I was at lunchtime at the Dave Greenwald' ; s Delicatessen in Chevy Chase. And I had met a, uh, Leonard Cohen, who lived on Breckenwood, was a neighbor of Leon and Harriet Cooper. And, uh, I' ; ll -- I' ; ll go back and talk about being recruited by the University of Kentucky shortly. But I was sitting in Greenwald' ; s delicatessen and Leonard Cohen and, uh, another gentleman were sitting at a table and I -- and I -- there were three of us at the table and this is September. And Leonard says to me, um, " ; What are you going to do about the holidays? Uh, the new year is coming up, Rosh Hashanah is coming up." ; And I said, " ; Well," ; and, " ; We haven' ; t done -- made any plans, I don' ; t know." ; And it turns out that Leonard is a member of, uh, what was called the Conservative congregation, Ohavey Zion synagogue, and the other fellow was a member of the reform congregation Temple Adath Israel. So Leonard says to me, he says, " ; Well," ; he says -- " ; This is a Friday night," ; -- he says, uh, " ; You should come to my synagogue," ; he said, " ; I' ; ll come by and pick you up." ; And so I turn and I look at the other fellow for a counter offer, and he sits there mute--(laughs)--he doesn' ; t say anything. So I said to Leonard, " ; Sure, you know, we' ; ll -- we' ; ll -- we' ; ll do that." ; So, uh, we went to, uh, Ohavay Zion. As I said, we had been going to some services that was a very small, friendly, new reform congregation in Seattle, and I felt, you know, we would be receptive to either. Uh, Judy' ; s background and her father, my father-in-law was a conservative rabbi, a very dynamic figure who set the standards for how rabbis should act. He was a -- when I met Judy, he had a congregation in South Florida and was there for decades until his retirement and then was still there. But just an extraordinary person and certainly a most extraordinary rabbi. Uh, so that set the standard for me. But anyway, at this point in time, so Friday night came and Leonard Cohen picked us up and we went to Ohavay Zion synagogue and met more people there, and it was the conservative synagogue, and, uh, and that' ; s -- we have been members now, of course it' ; s over half a century. CRANE: What was your position at the dental school? And, um, the specific areas of instruction or faculty responsibilities that you had? SAXE: I, um, I came as the only non-chair. Harry Bohannon, who was the -- who recruited me and who was the first chair of periodontics and later became associate dean and then dean of the college, was a very -- and still he is a very dynamic figure who recruited me to Lexington, and he was the chair -- and then I was -- and so he had another faculty person in periodontics, um, so I was the first non-chair when the chairs would have their meetings that first year or so, I was all by myself. Uh, but uh, Harry then went to become associate dean and, uh, four years later, or so, I was chair of the department of periodontics. At that time, we had multiple departments. They were university recognized, there was a reorganization a few years ago and the entire school just went to two university departments. But periodontics was a -- a uni-- it was a recognized department within the university that had its own -- its own budget, its own physical space, our own conference room. We had -- when I became chair in ' ; 66, I hired -- I had the ability to hire on three more people. We had five, maybe six full time people. Uh, and during that time, in our first years, we gained some notoriety because we developed the first animal model for periodontitis, periodontitis is the concert in periodontal diseases. It' ; s -- it' ; s, uh, loss of bone that holds the teeth and the jaws, and the reason why teeth have to be removed when teeth are lost. And there had been no animal model for periodontitis, and we developed one, you know, with the beagle dog and gave us some notoriety in the late ' ; 60s and early ' ; 70s. Then I, uh, we went on sabbatical. I came back, uh, uh, I co-- it was really a good time. I' ; d do whatever I wanted, I thought, within the college. You know, things changed and we opted not to leave, you know, to stay here. And, uh, our director of graduate studies, uh, and then I, uh, by the ' ; 80s, I became interested in aging and I became interested in aging, actually, through what we had been doing in periodontics because wanted to find out why some older adults maintained most all of their teeth and many older adults had no teeth. Uh, why some of -- really old, old adults could maintain all of -- most all of their dentition. And my background was well you looked as -- you look at something in the tissue, something in the cells, maybe it' ; s the microbiology, maybe it' ; s the organisms that are different that are living in the mouth and around the teeth and -- and I spent six months at the center on aging, the Sanders Brown Center on Aging in the mid ' ; 80s and the really changed -- instead of looking just at the, uh, the -- the biology and the, uh, of the -- of the tissues and the microbiology, uh, the whole concept of attitudes and beliefs and it expanded, uh, my interest and was a great opportunity and I came back to the college of dentistry and, uh, I was, uh, able, uh, with help from the administration that we were able to establish geriatric dentistry as a subject in the college of dentistry ; it' ; s difficult to get time in the curriculum because every hour is basically allocated in a college of dentistry, but we were able to get time in the curriculum and we were very fortunate that Doctor Bob Henry elected to come back to Lexington, uh, in the veteran' ; s administration. He was a student at the University of Kentucky in the college of dentistry and had gone off to do, uh, post-doctoral work and including in geriatric dentistry, and he was a great ally and supporter and co-worker. And together we, uh, put together courses in geriatric dentistry and had set up clinical experiences for the students. And uh, um, that was a really a very, very gratifying work and, uh, and there were a lot of, uh, many other schools around the country too who were beginning to institute programs in, uh, geriatrics and in geriatric dentistry. CRANE: Can -- can you briefly, uh, I guess in layman terms, describe what your findings were? Is this the work that you did with Doctor Wekstein? SAXE: Uh, yes, yeah. David, uh, as -- David Wekstein was instrumental in establishing a center on aging here at the University of Kentucky. He came to Lexington, he and his wife and one daughter at that time, also in the fall of 1962, he was a newly minted PhD from the University of Rochester, though he grew up in Boston. He and his wife grew up in Boston and David started a seminar series in aging when he was a faculty member in physiology. He was recruited as a -- a -- a new -- as I said, as a new PhD came to the department of physiology in the college of medicine here at Kentucky and, uh, he expanded that. He expanded the program, uh, and, uh, the original, uh, titles had to do with research in the biology of aging. And that evolved into what is now the Sanders Brown Center on Aging. And, uh, they -- the center and Bill Markesbery, who was the physician pathologist who headed the center, uh, were very helpful to me and supportive and, uh, in the, uh, in the early ' ; 90s, after we had established ourselves as, uh, as a geriatric dentistry program in the college, uh, we were able to do a major study on the role of, uh, the relationshi-- any relationship between dental amalgam and Alzheimer' ; s disease, and it was David who was instrumental in setting up, uh, their brain study, that is having non-demented older adults agree to give up their brains, uh, upon death for a study. Uh, families of Alzheimer' ; s patients are -- generally have been quite willing, and are quite willing to see that the Alzheimer' ; s, uh, person, uh, goes to autopsy and their brains are available. But having non-demented older adults was very important, and David was instrumental in setting that, uh, program up which has been still ongoing and very successful. So we were able to all-- to join with that and added our component of looking at, uh, dental amalgam in older adults, non-demented older adults as well as, uh, older adults with Alzheimer' ; s disease, and, uh, we were able to show, uh, that -- and we worked closely with Bill Markesbery and David and, uh, with, uh, statisticians, Doctor Kryscio who headed statistics and was really another phenomenal person to work with, and the chemists to do the analysis -- mercury analysis on the brain. And we were able to come up with various ways to measure the size, location, duration in the mouth of silver fillings and, uh, so anyway, the end result of that study after a number of years was to show that there' ; s--(laughs)--no relationship whatsoever to mercury levels in the brain and quite a number areas of the brain to Alzheimer' ; s disease and there' ; s no relationship to levels of mercury in the brain to the size, shape, location, duration in the mouth, to amalgams -- silver amalgams, silver fil-- so called silver fillings, no relationship whatsoever. CRANE: That' ; s good to know. SAXE: Now that' ; s been contested by -- there have been anti-amalgamists since dental amalgam was first used in the end of the last--(laughs)--more than the last, well over a hundred years ago. Uh, people who have, uh, claimed that dental amalgam was very bad and that the mercury is coming off -- small amounts of mercury do come off, rub surfaces, uh, but, uh, there' ; s no relationship to that and mercury in the brain and certainly no relationship to Alzheimer' ; s disease. CRANE: I know that Doctor Wekstein was Jewish, what was it like for you to work with, um, a fellow Jewish faculty, um, from the university? Was it different or the same, or--? SAXE: Well, we, uh, we both grew up in the Boston area. We were, uh, both undergraduates at Boston University, albeit when I graduated, David was just entering college. Um, uh, we also joined together -- well, he was a colleague, not just a professional colleague, but we were also, uh, joined together in, uh, part of the -- those people in the creation of the Lexington havurah, uh, in the 1970s, and um, so we worked together on that. David was a really dynamic individual, he and his family also joined Ohavay Zion synagogue, uh, and David was a real doer, and within a few years was presi-- very few years, was president of the congregation. Um, I was chair of the religious committee, I was on the board in those early years, and we attempted to make some changes, uh, which weren' ; t necessarily well received by the older establishment in the synagogue who didn' ; t want to see these changes made. Now they do exist. For example, the role of women -- an egalitarian congregation. Women were forbidden to go up onto the bema or the platform at the -- at the front of the sanctuary. When my daughter--(laughs)--when my daughter Harriet was Bat Mitzvahed at the age of 12, I was up there on -- and it was done on a Friday night, not on a Saturday morning because women were forbidden to touch the Torah. So the -- the Bat Mitzvah was held at Friday evening and I was allowed -- I was up on the -- on the bema, on the -- at the front of the congregation, but my wife Judy was not allowed. Uh, so we -- we -- uh, uh, anyway, those thing-- that evolved, and of course that' ; s, uh, just a matter of history now. The role of women is accepted and women in that congregation, of course, have, uh, assumed many roles and there have been, uh, the current president is a woman and there have been perhaps two, three other women who have been presidents in recent years. CRANE: That' ; s true. SAXE: But we' ; re talking about, uh, you know, early -- early -- the earlier 1960s. CRANE: What was -- can you maybe tell a little bit more about, um, the havurah and what the climate at the synagogue was like at the time that, um, that was formed and your role or even, um, and as you said Dr. Wekstein' ; s role in it and -- and how that impacted you working relationship? Or did it? SAXE: Well, um, beginning of the havurah, we -- it was formed by, uh, we had, uh, temple members, we had people who belonged to neither of the congregations, and we had perhaps more people from the synagogue. Well, we had tried -- we weren' ; t looking to leave the synagogue, Judy and I never left, we never gave up our membership in Ohavay Zion. We were looking to -- I mentioned the role of women, and also to have a little more animated, perhaps, service on Friday night. I, um, when I was chair of the religious committee at Ohavay Zion and -- must have been late ' ; 60s, maybe early ' ; 70s -- I went to the rabbi and I said, " ; We have some good voices in this congregation and perhaps we can enliven the singing if we asked a few people, four, five or so just to sit down toward the front," ; and the rabbi said, " ; No, that' ; s a choir." ; So what we wanted was just to have a little more animated service and we were -- felt strongly about the role of women, that women should participate in the service, in a service. And so we asked -- we said, " ; Well, perhaps we just had a service in a -- in another room, we just have a few people together to try out something in another room," ; and that wasn' ; t accepted. And it -- so we decided -- there were many -- we tried different things, wasn' ; t being accepted, so we were not looking to quit the synagogue at all, we just wanted to have what today might be called an alternative service where principally women would play a role and, uh, so we set together and, uh, and havurot, the plural of havurah, certainly the Somerville, Massachusetts havurah set the standard as being egalitarian and incorporating other material into the service, not just going page by page in the prayer book. So we decided that we would try a havurot -- a havurah, a single havurah basically to supplement what was going on in the community. And people joined who had belonged to neither congregation, particularly some young people, and we had people who were members and held significant roles in the temple, Temple Adath Israel, as well as from Ohavay Zion synagogue. And we didn' ; t look to compete in terms of starting as a -- having a school for children, that wasn' ; t in our, uh, view, in our vision. And, uh, we, uh, celebrate all the holidays and have continued to do so. And, uh, um, we still -- it' ; s much of a social organization. Uh, everybody' ; s -- and it' ; s peer led, that is everybody contributes in some way ; some people are quite -- and have been quite learned or knowledgeable and some not in terms of Judaism in ritual, and services, uh -- CRANE: And this was during -- it' ; s Rabbi Schwab that was actually the rabbi of this synagogue at the time? SAXE: Yes. CRANE: Okay. SAXE: So, uh, and then of course there have been, uh, you know, great changes that were -- we' ; re talking about in terms of being egalitarian and that were very important to us and have gone along and we' ; ve seen all -- we' ; ve seen both of the major congregations, uh, advance and be concerned about world events and world affairs and what' ; s going on and also in terms of the Jewish world and Israel and what' ; s, you know, universal events. CRANE: As a, um, a Jew working at the University of Kentucky, describe any adjustments that you needed to make, um, if you needed to make them -- SAXE: Ah, that' ; s -- CRANE: -- and how was your Jewishness treated by other faculty, staff, or students? SAXE: (laughs) That was a very, very important part of the University of Kentucky. When I was, um, as I mentioned, Doctor Harry Bohannon recruited me and in the early days, Harry and the other folks, and we all considered ourselves very good at recruiting. What Harry did when I was invited to come here and be here for several days was one evening he asked Roy Jarecky, who was the director admissions in the University of Kentucky college of medicine at that time, to bring together some young Jewish couples. I came here by myself on that first visit, and Roy did at his house, and I can remember there were perhaps four or five, or even more, Jewish couples who were there and I remember there was Harriet and Leon Cooper, and I remembered that particularly because Harriet had a southern accent and I remember going back to Seattle and describing this to Judy and saying I had met this woman with this southern accent -- this Jewish woman with a southern accent, I never met a Jewish woman with a southern accent before. I think Marty and Nicky Kaplan were there. Uh, uh, the Derrers may have been there, Barbara and Shelley Derrer may have been there. And there were others. But that I mention as Harry knew that I was Jewish, that Judy and I were Jewish and that being Jewish would be an important consideration. It wasn' ; t just us, I think he would -- any Jewish person that was being recruited, he would look to see what, uh, uh, that they felt, uh, comfortable. But, but he -- but he fe-- knew this brought together that evening, made it happen thanks to Roy Jarecky. And that was important that I knew there were Jewish couples there, couples our age or maybe a little older, uh, to find out about the community. And when we elected to come to Lexington, a couple who were very welcoming, of course, were Harriet and Leon. They -- they were truly outstanding. Leon still is, of course. But, uh, inviting people to their home and, uh, being a real force, a dynamic force in the Jewish community. And, uh, and a factor in us being -- joining Ohavay Zion synagogue in those early days. Um, the other thing about being recruited to the University of Kentucky, uh, now we' ; re talking times when I was in dental school in the, uh, in the mid ' ; 50s and, uh, and in the late ' ; 50s and early 1960s, there was overt discrimination against Jews, not only as students, which was ending at that time. When I went to Harvard, uh, the discrimination had ended. Um, I had a lot of, um, single syllable last name, uh, fellow students who were Jewish. But the fascinating thing was, I don' ; t know if you' ; d call it fascinating, but the truth was that, uh, that certain dental schools in the United States, uh, were low and did not hire Jewish faculty. Uh, the, uh, American Academy of Periodontology, I' ; m going to digress here for a little bit, when I was a post-doc, uh, there was, uh, led by Dr. Saul Schluger among others who would -- who was head of my program at the University of Washington when I was a post-doc there -- to create a new organiz-- professional organization, the American Academy of Periodontology was a semi-secret organization. In other words, a person could not just send in an application and say, " ; I want to join this professional organization." ; Uh, the American Academy of Periodontology also controlled the board certification for periodontists. Uh, the, uh, one hard to be vouched for by, uh, either one or two members of the organization to join. During my time, there was a well-known black periodontist who wanted to become a member of the American Academy and was refused -- in other words, they wouldn' ; t allow even if he had a, uh, current member to vouch for him. It was -- he wasn' ; t accepted as a member. Um, the officers of the organization were anointed by themselves, so there were a group of periodontists, including Saul Schluger, Walter Cohen from the University of Pennsylvania, and others, non-Jews, who decided we nee-- and also non-periodontists were members of the American Academy of Periodontology, were equal members. One president was an oral surgeon, one president was an oral pathologist, nothing against oral surgeons and oral pathologists, but this purported to be the specialty organization, the professional organization of periodontists in the United States. So those folks got together and created a new organization and it was called the American Society of Periodontists. When I was a faculty person at the--(laughs)--most junior faculty person at the University of Washington, we were going to hold our first meeting ever in Seattle and the plan was to have meetings at a dental school and utilize the facility of the school, and television was a new, uh, new means of uh, of adding onto to -- but were pure lectures and slides before that, having live television demonstrations of procedures at a professional meeting, utilizing the facility of the dental school. And the first one was held at the University of Washington and I was a lowly instructor, but I was chair of the local arrangements committee. It was called the American Society for Periodontists and membership was limited only to periodontists. And after this organization was created, within a couple of years -- and there were alternate meetings, every other year the meeting would be at a dental school and it would break away, uh, from the fall meeting time, uh, of the American Dental Association. At that time, the American Dental Association, and it still does, has its meetings in the fall. Any specialty organization had to, um, deal -- well, I shouldn' ; t say deal with, but the American Dental Association decided where and when the specialty organizations would meet. The oral surgeons, the oral pathologists, the orthodontists, the periodontists would assign them a hotel in the meeting city and generally they would met before the ADA meeting itself. And with this new organization, we were going to meet in the spring, not in September or October, in the ADA meeting city. Uh, within a couple of years, the old American Academy of Periodontology wanted to talk about merging, essentially, and I remember one meeting took place -- they came to a meeting we had in San Antonio, and we had representatives. And the first meeting, the first year, I think the joint meeting was -- may have been 1967 and may not -- no, 1967 was the first -- ah, when the American Society of Periodontists was formed, the plan was to have a meeting at a dental school every other year, and in between years, the meetings were going to be, uh, at this resort outside of Denver, um, and in the interims, we met at the Brown Palace Hotel in Denver. And the first year could be held at this resort, blocking the name of the resort, in Colorado, was 1967 because I remember being there in June 1967 when the six day war occurred in Israel and we were trying to get news out there in this resort. And actually that was the first and last year we had the meeting at that resort because most people preferred to be in the middle of a large city where you could walk out and have access to restaurants and museums and sights. But I remember that because it was 1967. And following that time, there was a merger and the agreement was that the name of the old organization would be used -- mostly because they controlled the board, which was accepted by the American Dental Association, that is the specialty board for periodontists. And we -- ah, and the merger also dictated who would be president of this new organization or the mergered organization, and first year it would be someone from the American Society, then it would be a person from the American Academy, and this was laid out for about five years in advance, and that was followed. And my own thinking was the only reason that the old organization was able to survive was because they held the board, the board certification. That was part of the old organization. And so it continues today, it' ; s quite, uh, it' ; s quite changed. This is, uh, you know, forty-five years later or so, and it' ; s the American Academy of Periodontology. One of the early things about the new, uh, new -- new in 1962, American Society of Periodontists that, uh, Saul Schruger said, " ; And we' ; re going to publish a journal every month." ; At that time, the American Academy was publishing, um, I' ; m not sure if it wasn' ; t even a quarterly, and it was a small little journal, and we' ; re going to have a lot of photographs. And there was a lot of black and white, and then color photographs in the journal of the American Society of Periodontists and it came out every month. And now the, uh, Journal of Periodontology been long well established, it does come out every month, and it' ; s online. But there had been a -- a -- evolution. But, uh, the, uh, racial and religious discrimination was a big factor, uh, in why there was a new organization created. CRANE: Were there other Jewish faculty at the dental school when you were there? SAXE: At the University of Washington? CRANE: No, Kentucky. SAXE: Oh, at the University of Kentucky. Ah. Well, that was a -- a -- one of the important reasons that this school, in terms of being progressive, this new projected school was that there would be no discrimination, no discrimination in the selection of students, and no discrimination in the selection of faculty -- no racial discrimination, no religious discrimination. And in at least one--(laughs)--and this was the beginning of several new dental schools certainly in the south east and not -- we' ; re the lower Midwest, I' ; m convinced, I know that. But in the south east, the new dental schools came where there were none, uh, in the -- in the south east, in Georgia, in Florida, uh, there were dental schools in Tennessee, there were dental schools in South Carolina. Uh, there was racial and religious discrimination and I think I may have mentioned that, for example. I won' ; t mention which southeastern school, but, uh, the dean was, uh, basically almost an avowed anti-Semite, the dean at that time, and he' ; s -- he had publically stated there would be no Jewish faculty. So the idea of having this school here, uh, in a state which is a border state, but that there would be no religious and no, uh, ethnic, and no racial discrimination, was very important. That if you' ; re going to go first class, you accept people on merit, not on the color of their skin or their religious affiliation. So, yeah, that was -- this -- and this -- this was also an innovative thing, uh, in the creation of the college of dentistry at the University of Kentucky. CRANE: What was your relationship with the other Jewish faculty? SAXE: Um, it wasn' ; t -- religion wasn' ; t important, we didn' ; t need, um, we didn' ; t need a click or, uh, no -- it didn' ; t, it wasn' ; t a consideration. I' ; ll tell you--(laughs)--one other story. When I was in the dental school, I guess in the early year or two, I went in the dental clinics. We had to spend a couple years in the medical school, there was no distinction, uh, when I went to dental school. We -- we -- there were sixteen of us and 114 medic-- maybe 114, 115 medical students. We were all treated the same, we did the exact -- at that time, in the 1950s, the curriculum was exactly the same. I did -- we who were in dentistry did tropical medicine, we did OBGYN, I won' ; t go too much into that, but we did -- were called young doctors. And then we went into the dental clinics, and the, um, being in the dental clinic -- so these are all dentists now. And a couple of the upper classmen -- well, first of all, I got an invitation to go to Tufts. There was a Jewish fraternity at the dental school at Tufts across town in Boston and I think I may have gone to that, probably sure I -- I went to whatever it was. Um, and they wanted to recruit students from Harvard to join their organization because we were a very small class, Harvard in dentists, as I said, there were only sixteen of us. I ended up in a graduating class of only twelve, so I knew I was in the top twelve of my class. But I said to an upperclassmen back in the dental school at Harvard about did -- didn' ; t any of the Harvard students or his classmates join this Jewish fraternity? And he looked at me and he said, " ; Do you want to join a fraternity that not all of your classmates can join?" ; And that was the end of it. You know, I never bothered with it. So yeah, there was--(laughs)--we, uh, it wasn' ; t -- it wasn' ; t a question when I was an undergrad -- I mean when I was a dental student. And, um, uh, and I don' ; t have any thoughts about that when I was both a graduate student and a -- and a faculty person at the University of Washington. I wasn' ; t aware of it if there was anything really about religious association or not, and certainly not at the University of Kentucky. That' ; s -- I mean, we sor-- we kind of prided ourselves on that. CRANE: I happen to know that there were at least a few Jewish students attended UK' ; s dental school while you were there, but wondering if there were more than just a few, and what was the percentage of dental students that were Jewish? SAXE: It was a small percentage. I think it -- just as there' ; s a small percentage of the Jewish population in Lexington. If you talk about Louisville, of course there' ; s, uh, a dental school right there in Louisville and al-- you know, it has been for many, many, many, many decades. Uh, so, uh, there were -- and the Jewish students, um, I' ; d say with -- so how many applicants did we have from Lexington? Only very few. Um, there were a couple of Lexington natives -- not natives, but young people who grew up in Lexington who came to the dental school. And then we had out of state students, we had out of state students from New York, we had out of state students from Texas. There were few, but they -- they -- probably more out of state. We had one, uh, actually, uh, a young woman who came from New York who, um, whose son also -- and then moved back, moved to New England -- uh, but whose son came here to the University of Kentucky to go to dental school and is currently on the faculty of the UK college of dentistry. But in terms of Jewish students, they were relatively few and of those few, I would say more than half came from out of state. CRANE: What -- what would be the attraction for an out of state Jewish student to come here to go to dental school? SAXE: Ah, well, as I' ; ve said -- I' ; ve been reti-- all right, maybe I didn' ; t say, I' ; ve been retired for eighteen years and while I have a--(laughs)--a post-retirement appointment, uh, in the last number of years, I -- I -- I really -- I, you know, I show up and I talk to some of the staff people who were still there. But, uh, I mention in the early years, we were unique in those early years and we did have a national reputation. Unique in how the curriculum was set up, uh, unique in that it attracted some very good people -- I' ; ll tell you an anecdote about that. In the early years, I was in a national meeting and someone came up to me and said -- this may have been in the late ' ; 60s -- and came up to me and said, " ; What' ; s going -- what' ; s -- what' ; s wrong at the University of Kentucky?" ; And I said, " ; Well, what do you mean what' ; s wrong? What' ; s wrong? What' ; s -- what' ; s -- what' ; s going on?" ; And the person said, " ; Well, so many people are leaving." ; And I said, " ; Oh yes. You know, so-and-so went down to be dean at this school," ; in the early days there was a new school at the University of Georgia and John Hickey went down to become dean. Uh, John DiBiaggio, uh, left and he became dean, uh, at Virginia, he went on to become president of Michigan State. Uh, he became president of the University of Connecticut. Uh, we had many people and when there was a new dental school in Florida, we had people who went down to become, uh, department chairs. Uh, we had department chairs at Kentucky who became deans at other schools, uh, and that' ; s what happened. It wasn' ; t as if they were leaving because they weren' ; t happy, but they were offered, uh, well, myself, you know, but I opted to stay here -- not to become a dean, but to head my area in my own school, which would be attractive. But it was the community, we decided to stay here at that time, that was a -- a very large pull. So there were people who did leave and, um, uh, because we -- and I say they left because the school had a very good reputation of attracting bright young people, uh, in as faculty and then these faculty -- many of them moved on to assume positions elsewhere, and that still goes on. If you look at, uh, deans of dental schools across the United States and people in positions in dentistry, uh, we' ; ve had our -- our -- perhaps more than our share of people who were students here and who were faculty here who' ; ve moved on to other dental schools. CRANE: Describe any specific resources the school offered to the Jewish students. Um, the relationship between the greater Lexington Jewish community and the Jewish students at the dental school. SAXE: (laughs) Well, I -- I don' ; t know if there was anything special except that the community -- the Jewish community, I think, was greatly influenced by the fact that Lexington grew a great deal in the 1960s and in the 1970s. This meant that a lot of folks came in, I can only speak for the medical center, who didn' ; t have families here in Lexington, that is blood relatives here in Lexington. That certainly was true when Judy and I came in the early 1960s and people who were coming at that time in the later ' ; 60s and in the ' ; 70s, so they relied on friendships for close associations and that type of environment, I think, would have encompassed Jewish students who wanted to -- or any students who wanted to reach out into the community because I think this has been a very welcoming community. And partly, uh, it may be the nature -- we have to give credit to, uh, to -- to the native Lexingtonians, to some of them, for creating this unique community and much of the credit goes to people who came in from other parts of the country. When we came in, and I' ; ll include myself, came in from other parts of the country, particularly from big cities, we' ; re used to the fact that the school system -- that one needs equality school system. Uh, you need social services, uh, that we saw in other cities and we expected and there was a demand, and the merger of the school systems between county and, uh, city. Uh, and the quality, uh, was promoted a lot by people who came in from other areas who, uh, look at people on the urban county council now, you look at Pam Miller who became mayor, people who came in from other places. Ralph Miller was recruited, came in from because of the University of Kentucky medical center, brought in people from other places who were concerned about the quality of life in this community and, uh, um, and then made it more attractive for other people to come in from elsewhere. But I think the medical center played a major, major role in that -- in -- in all of the colleges. Uh, talk about Je-- the first dean of what was then called the College of Allied Health-- Allied Health Sciences was Joe Hamburg. And -- who was Jewish -- and, uh, that was it. It was, um, I -- I had--(laughs)--we ha-- we now have, as you know, Mike Karp has a -- the, um, heading the medical center, you know, is a Jewish person who came in. Today we have, uh, a Jewish president of the University of Kentucky. Uh, and it' ; s all to the credit of the university that looked for, uh, the leadership and looked for the qualities in an individual that would be a benefit to the commonwealth and the university, not looking at their religious affiliation as the -- as a -- as an important factor. So, uh, Judy and I feel very comfortable in making the decision that we stayed in Lexington and there was no question when I was going to retire and I said -- I' ; ve been retired now for over eighteen years -- that we' ; re going to stay in Lexington, Lexington is our home, our kids are all across the country and now they' ; re concentrated in the Pacific Northwest, uh, this is true of many of the young people I guess in Lexington -- they' ; re looking to go to larger urban areas and other, uh, opportunities and challenges. But, um, we are very, very pleased to have made the decision to come to Lexington and to have stayed in Lexington. CRANE: Is it -- while you were busy at the University, um, of Kentucky in the dental school, you were also very active in the Jewish community. Um, you' ; ve already mentioned your role, um, as religious chair and board -- board members at the synagogue and the -- the havurah, but, uh, I know that you were also active in the federation, the Jewish federation. If you could just briefly tell just a little bit about that. SAXE: Yes. Uh, you know, as, uh, you -- when it' ; s heard, the current federation came out of, uh, what was a -- and what still is a, uh, a day camp during the summer that several, uh, Jewish women put together. Um, and by this time, it must have been uh, I' ; m not sure that -- when Camp Shalom, the first session -- in the late ' ; 60s, early ' ; 70s, um, and um, from that -- the -- and -- and one of the, um, a le-- and actually a native Lexingtonian was very important. This was not all from people who came into Lexington. Sue Friedman, who was--(laughs)--a native Lexingtonian and, uh, a social worker and a -- just an extraordinary human being, was concerned about social services, uh, in the city and in the Jewish community. And from Camp Shalom, the beginnings, the organization, the women who put it together, the need for an organization to exist not just during the summer--(laughs)--as a summer camp, but an all year round to provide social services also to meld together fundraising. Uh, and the first organization of which I was a member and I think I served as a secretary when it was called the Jewish Community Association or the JCA, uh, from the Jewish Community Association, uh, Dave Wekstein and Chuck Gorodetsky got together sort of on their own and decided there needed to be a new constitution and came up with the Central Kentucky Jewish Association. Uh, and from that, the Central Kentucky Jewish Association led to joining, uh, and becoming a federation into the Central Kentucky Jewish Federation and now we are the Jewish Federation of the, uh, Bluegrass. Uh, so I served on those boards in the past, and actually when I retired, talking about my retirement, I was asked to go on a couple of boards, one of which was the, uh, the Central Kentucky Jewish Federation and, uh, I did and then they said, " ; Well, you know, we really need somebody on the executive committee, we need a -- uh -- a vice president." ; And so I said, " ; Well, I can do that." ; And then after a bit they said, " ; You know, we really want to create line of succession so that, uh, perhaps next time around or next time around you would be the president." ; And I said, " ; Oh, no. I didn' ; t sign up to the be the president. They know -- been there, done that. I don' ; t want to be the president." ; So I came home and I told that story to Judy and she looked at me and she said, " ; You have a responsibility." ; So I became the president. Yeah, no, I think that we all feel a sense of responsibility and, uh, and -- and -- and that' ; s what does it. We have a responsibility because we take from this community, this is a good community in which to live, and one has to do something about it and participate and, uh, one has a responsibility. CRANE: What kind of supports and challenges were there, uh, in Lexington to raise your Jewish children? Or to raise your children Jewish? SAXE: To raise your children Jewish. Oh, I think it was, uh, it has been relatively easy, uh, because this being a smaller community. Uh, people talk about, uh, in large -- larger communities, I talk about New York, you' ; re surrounded by it. You know, the -- the bagel and the corned beef and the foods, they' ; re always there -- uh, nobody -- you know, you don' ; t have to do anything about this or that and the holidays are observed. But when you live in a smaller community, you have to work to see that there' ; s, uh, for example, in the public schools, a number of people have been concerned when there have been, uh, the classic things scheduled, exams, or--(coughs)--against, uh, major Jewish holidays, for example. Uh, this has been an -- and, uh, I think Judy has gone, certainly I know we' ; re talking a lot, and rightfully so, about Dave Wekstein who chaired the, uh, community relations community and with others going to the latest superintendent of schools, presenting a calendar, and saying, " ; These are the days of, uh, of the Jewish -- major Jewish holidays, and having a major public school event or scheduling exams, um, you know, major exams in the public schools on these dates creates problems." ; And, uh, but, uh, that, um, that' ; s been done. We' ; ve had a number of people who have committed to doing that. Oh, one of the things also we had in its day, the, uh, NCCJ -- National Conference of Christians and Jews, which then expanded to include Islam and -- and -- and others. But, um, we -- it' ; s eas-- it was easier to do and we had a discussion groups, um, we didn' ; t call it a discussion group, we called it an interfaith dialogue. Easier to do, I think, in -- in this city. I can remember going with Franklin Moosnick and George Zack to like rotary clubs, to service clubs, and because many of these people had -- they' ; d grown up in central Kentucky, had no contact, uh, with minorities. And, uh, George Zack would talk about growing up, uh, Greek Orthodox in the south, uh, I' ; d talk about being Jewish, I didn' ; t think that was terribly unique. And um, uh, but it was pretty straightforward and easy to do in a community of this size, so we went to the meetings, we talked a little bit, I didn' ; t think I was particularly unique--(laughs)--I' ; m not sure what I would talk about, people asked me questions. Um, but it was easy to do in this community. It, uh, of this size -- easy to get around, you identified names of lots of folks, uh, but again, um, you know, I' ; ve only lived in, uh, in -- in three different communities and most of my time spent in this one. CRANE: Okay. So you' ; ve been here a long time. How is the Jewish community in Lexington changed over time? SAXE: Oh, I think, first of all, I think the community perhaps would have changed regardless, but an important consideration was the, uh, new people coming into the community. Uh, brought in by IBM, brought in by the University of Kentucky, certainly the medical center contributed a lot of folks within a shorter period of time. IBM brought in those five hundred families, uh, when they first came. Uh, and the -- as Lexington began to grow, uh, and, uh, people who are looking to establish a business or a franchise and go to the most rapidly growing areas, certainly Lexington did that. So a lot of businesses and franchises came in, uh, in the ' ; 60s and the ' ; 70s and brought in a lot of different, uh, people. Brought in a number of Jewish people, uh, because of the work situation. Uh, and, um, that was one of -- that was a particular uniqueness of Lexington, its rapid growth. Certainly in the northeast, uh, I think like my home town sti-- still ha-- limited amount of space, but still has probably a population of 60,000, same as it did, you know, seventy-five years ago. Uh, the population, the, uh, the population has changed, uh, in terms of its background and ethnicity, but uh, uh Lexington had a -- has had a lot of room, uh, in which to grow physically and expand and its population has grown. And I' ; m meeting a lot of folks who have come in not only from other parts of the state but from outside, uh, the commonwealth. CRANE: What is your most vivid special memory of raising your children in Lexington in your Jewish life? SAXE: In the Jewish life, well, as I said, I think it was easy because of the size of the community, that the, uh, the children all went to Ohavay Zion' ; s Sunday school, uh, and, uh, it was -- it was easy to do. You didn' ; t have to work out to too complicated a transportation system, to see that they got there. Uh, um, and, uh, and then with the organizations in the city, uh, there were various events. Uh, so this synagogue existed and its Sunday school, uh, the havurah had events, uh, Hadassah -- I don' ; t know if that i-- really involved the children so much, but that, uh, Hadassah became a rather dynamic organization. Uh, and a lot of it from the women who were already resident in Lexington before our time, uh, to whom Judy, uh, owes a great deal, um, uh, uh, yeah. The -- these were women who were quite involved when Judy came and were helpful to her from the Ades Family and the Rosenberg family in pa-- that I can recall who were active. But in terms of the kids, um, uh, yeah, well through Hadassah. Hadassah, for example, sponsored young Judaea, which became a force for, uh, our children and for other young people, uh, through here in town and then certainly through the summer camps. Uh, there are a number of Jewish summer camps that kids here went to, uh, our kids went to the, uh, Young Judaea camps as small children and then as councilors until the high school camp, and then to the overseas program to the -- the -- the summer program in Israel and the year in Israel following high school. So Hadassah, as an organization in the city, and Young Judaea played a role, played a very important role in raising our kids Jewish. CRANE: Is there anything -- we' ; ve talked about all kinds of stuff today, um, certainly enjoyed listening to all your stories. Um, is there anything else that you would like to share that you haven' ; t already shared? Including, um, if you wanted to say something about Israel, um, politics, anything that you would just like to share before we end the interview? SAXE: Well, I think--(laughs)--uh, a couple of weeks ago, two or three weeks ago, we were in New York and, uh, we were in New York, uh, because Mike and Charlotte Beard' ; s son was married, and, uh, Mike and Charlotte came here. Mike, uh, pretty sure came here right after he received his PhD in political science from Oregon, came into the political science department, then chaired the political science department, became Dean of Arts and Sciences, and then moved on to become provost at Northeastern. But they always -- and now he' ; s in Washington, uh, work for an accrediting agency and now is, um, important, uh, in doing, uh, searching for academic leadership at do-- university presidents in Washington D.C. They always kept their ties with Lexington, always kept their tie with Lexington even, uh, after they left. Well even after they left, after they left it was very important to then, important to us. So we go to the wedding in, uh, in New York City and, uh, one of the things we do is to go to the new Hadassah with Judy and Gail Cohen and I, go up to visit the new Hadassah national office in -- in -- in Manhattan, they had moved, so they' ; re in some new offices and there I am, and I know some of the women that I had met, uh, before. Uh, and they' ; re recognized by many of the women there because they' ; d been on the national board for a long time, but also Gail Cohen and Judy Saxe are former national vice-presidents of Hadassah and the joke used to be -- and Marilyn Moosnick was the first, was a national vice-president of Hadassah and then Gail was and then Judy. And the joke was that Lexington, Kentucky must be a hot bed of Zionism because three national vice-presidents of Hadassah have from -- come from out in the country from this little town out god knows where, you know, somewhere west of New York City. And so that brought that home because we -- then I thought of that again about being a hotbed of Zionism, but it isn' ; t, but we have a lot of, uh, committed people, uh, and that has grown over the years. People who are committed, uh, to Zionism, people who are committed to the state of Israel. And we have had a lot of young people, a number of yo-- or young people who have done the year in Israel program, uh, and have visited at ot-- at other times. Um, so yes, I think there' ; s a -- a -- Lexington is a presence. Lexington, I might even say, is a force, uh, for, uh, pro-Israel or, uh, promotion of Israel and the defense of Israel. And a great concern for the welfare of Israel exists here in Lexington, Kentucky. CRANE: Well, I thank you very much for everything you' ; ve shared with us today. SAXE: Well, thank you. [End of audio file] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh472_jk013_saxe_ohm.xml 2015oh472_jk013_saxe_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
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https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh472_jk013_saxe_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
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Title
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Stanley Saxe, December 3, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Stanley Saxe introduces himself and his family. He discusses his family's migration from Russia to America and his parents' life and work in the tobacco industry. He also describes his childhood in Malden, Massachusetts. From quotas limiting the number of Jewish students accepted to universities to the anti-Semitic rhetoric of public figures such as Charles E. Coughlin and Henry Ford, Saxe remembers the discrimination that he and his family experienced during the 1930s in Boston.
Saxe describes his move to Seattle in order to pursue a post-doctoral opportunity in periodontics at the University of Washington. While in Seattle, Saxe was invited to join the newly established College of Dentistry at the University of Kentucky. Saxes describes the biggest differences in regard to his Jewish practices between Boston, Seattle, and Lexington, particularly due to location relative to community centers and the values of each Jewish community. He also shares the story about how he was invited to attend holiday services at Ohavay Zion Synagogue by a friend when he first moved to Lexington, and he has been a member ever since. Saxe describes the shift to a more tolerant opinion about the role of women at Ohavay Zion Synagogue and his involvement with the establishment of a Havurah, or an egalitarian and alternative service, in the 1970s. Saxe outlines the many roles he has played in the Lexington Jewish community, including his time with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass.
Saxe describes his work at the University of Kentucky, including his chairmanship of the department of periodontics, the establishment of courses in geriatric dentistry, and a major research project investigating the relationship between mercury dental fillings and the development of Alzheimer's disease with the Sanders-Brown Center on Aging. Discrimination within the American Academy of Periodontology led to the creation of a new professional organization for periodontists, the American Society of Periodontists in 1960.
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2015oh472_jk013
Subject
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Minorities in higher education
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Religion
Worship (Judaism)
Discrimination.
Anti-Semitism
Antisemitism
Jews--Identity.
Lexington (Ky.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
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https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/7491e1aa215d83b617f37b1dd0a08d05.jpeg
c677d75dc0e406866565934633dacd06
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Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Judy Saxe
Interview Keyword
Gender roles
Israel.
Religion and politics
Holidays.
Fasts and feasts--Judaism.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh471_jk012 Interview with Judy Saxe, December 1, 2015 2015oh471_jk012 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Jewish families. Religion Jews--Identity. Worship (Judaism) Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Jewish children Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Gender roles Israel. Religion and politics Holidays. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Judy Saxe Janice Crane 1:|20(15)|30(10)|46(1)|54(14)|70(13)|85(5)|96(11)|105(1)|113(16)|124(1)|133(12)|144(14)|157(6)|169(17)|182(5)|193(9)|210(3)|219(14)|233(3)|256(1)|264(16)|273(6)|283(7)|292(1)|303(14)|312(7)|324(11)|340(3)|350(2)|364(8)|374(5)|382(11)|393(4)|405(4)|415(12)|424(8)|433(12)|444(1)|456(7)|465(5)|474(10)|484(7)|495(8)|505(10)|515(11)|524(9)|533(14)|543(9)|559(13)|566(15)|580(4)|588(11)|598(11)|607(3)|617(6)|636(5)|645(3)|655(10)|664(13)|679(5)|688(17)|698(3)|708(7)|729(6)|740(5)|750(6)|758(3)|770(1)|781(1)|793(8)|804(5)|814(2)|823(12)|833(4)|842(4)|850(6)|860(3)|869(15)|879(4)|897(4)|910(12)|918(15)|928(3)|937(12)|948(5)|959(9)|972(11)|984(5)|994(3)|1003(17)|1014(16)|1025(11)|1036(1)|1045(11)|1063(8)|1071(12)|1080(12)|1091(3)|1100(15)|1115(14)|1124(3)|1132(10)|1141(9)|1150(5)|1159(14)|1170(2)|1181(5)|1191(5)|1206(12)|1216(2)|1223(16)|1232(5)|1241(6)|1248(12)|1256(4)|1265(9)|1275(4)|1287(1)|1295(7)|1305(13)|1315(8)|1325(3)|1339(3)|1355(8)|1365(9)|1383(11) 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253337678" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family history For official purposes, today is December 1st, 2015. My name is Janice Crane, and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I'm honored to be here today with Judy Saxe. Judy Saxe discusses her family history. Her mother, Leila Sinaiko, was a physical education teacher. Her father, David Shapiro, was a rabbi. Her paternal grandparents were both born in Jerusalem. Her paternal grandparents came from a small town in Belarus. She has one younger brother currently living in Jerusalem. Her husband is Stanley Saxe, with whom she has three children, Harriet, Natalie and Neil. Belarus ; David Shapiro ; English ; Green Bay, Wisconsin ; Harriet Saxe ; Jerusalem ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project ; Judy Saxe ; Kapul ; Leila Sinaiko ; Madison, Wisconsin ; Natalie Saxe ; Neil Saxe ; Palestine ; Stanley Saxe ; University of Wisconsin ; Yiddish Families. ; Family histories. ; Family--history ; Jewish families. 53.709807, 27.953389000000016 17 Belarus 397 Relationship with Judaism Uh, your father was a rabbi, how would you describe your parents', both your mother and your father's, relationship to Judaism? Saxe discusses her and her family's relationship to Judaism. Both her father and her grandfather were rabbis. Judy Saxe examines her family customs of keeping kosher and Shabbat practices. Conservative ; First World War ; Haddassah ; Hebrew ; Henrietta Szold ; Holocaust ; Israel ; Jewish identity ; Kosher ; Madison, Wisconsin ; Nazism ; New York City ; Orthodox ; Poland ; Rabbi ; Second World War ; Shabbat ; University of Wisconsin ; World War I ; World War II ; Zionism ; Zionist Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 44.51915899999999, -88.01982599999997 17 Green Bay, Wisconsin, where Judy Saxe's father, David Shapiro, had a congregation. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Health/Hadassah.html The Jewish Virtual Library's documents on Haddassah, and its founder, Henrietta Szold. 1143 Jewish college life at Brandeis Uh, where did you go to school? Um-- Judy Saxe discusses the role of Judaism in her life in college at Brandeis University. She participated in the Student Zionist Organization and eventually took a year off school to do a work-study program in Israel. American Zionist Youth Commission ; Hadassah ; Hillel ; Israel ; IZFA ; Jewish Agency for Israel ; Student Zionist Organization ; The International Zionist Federation of America ; University of Washington ; Young Judea ; Zionism ; Zionist Brandeis University ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; Judaism. 42.36628450000001, -71.25873430000001 17 Brandeis University, where Judy Saxe studied sociology. 1448 Arrival to Kentucky in 1962 Before we get too much into your life here in Kentucky, is there anything unique we should know about your family background or childhood years that you haven't already mentioned? Judy Saxe discusses the series of events that led to her and her family living in Lexington, Kentucky. She was married to her husband, Stanley Saxe, in 1958, after which he got a job at the University of Washington so the pair moved to Seattle. Stanley Saxe was later recruited by the University of Kentucky to help start the dental school. In 1962, they moved to Lexington where they have stayed ever since. 1962 ; Brandeis University ; Florida ; Israel ; Jewish community ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Madison, Wisconsin ; Ohavay Zion ; Periodontics ; Seattle, Washington ; Stanley Saxe ; University of Kentucky ; University of Washington ; Young Judaea Dental schools ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Universities and colleges--Faculty. ; University of Kentucky. College of Dentistry 47.655, 122.308 17 The University of Washington, where Stanley Saxe attended and then taught for a few years. http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt712j683m9j_236 Stanley Saxe is listed on the Bulletin of the University of Kentucky in 1964 as a professor in periodontics at UK's dental school. 1790 Holiday observance in Lexington Describe Judaism in your home as an adult in Lexington and as a parent. Saxe discusses how her family observed the high holidays in Lexington, Kentucky. Her children were often the only Jewish children in their classes at school, prompting Saxe to come to school and explain Judaism on numerous occasions. Saxe taught at Hebrew and Sunday school for a number of years and eventually became the principal. Conservative ; Hadassah ; Hebrew schools ; Jewish ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Marilyn Moosnick ; Ohavay Zion ; Orthodox ; Rabbi Schwab ; Sunday School ; Synagogue ; Young Judaea Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Lexington (Ky.) 37.9986288, -84.47181260000002 17 Ohavay Zion Synogogue http://www.ozs.org/ The website for Ohavay Zion Synogoge 2294 Lexington Havurah beginning in 1977 I know that you were actively involved in the formation of the Havurah. Uh, can you first describe what the Havurah is, and tell about the Jewish community's climate that was key to its formation? Judy Saxe discusses the formation of the Lexington Havurah and how it has transformed today. 1977 ; Boston ; Brandeis University ; Conservative ; Havurah ; Ohavay Zion ; Ori Smith ; Orthodox ; Rabbi Schwab ; Reconstructionist Judaism ; Reform ; Reform movement ; Somerville, Massachusetts Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.0405837, -84.50371640000003 17 Lexington, Kentucky https://jewishlexington.org/community-directory/the-lexington-havurah The Jewish Community of Lexington's website on Havurah as a synogogue. 3547 Raising Jewish children in Lexington 1960s-1980s Um, to the best of your ability, how did your children, not that we know what our children's thoughts and feelings are all the time, but how did your children feel about their Jewishness in Lexington? Judy Saxe discusses her children's experiences growing up Jewish in Lexington. Her son, Neil, at one point was in trouble for not praying at his soccer games. She also discusses the positive and negative sides of raising Jewish children in Lexington. 1960s ; 1980s ; Anti-Semitism ; Glendover School ; High holidays ; Jewish ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Merle Weckstein ; Natalie Saxe ; Neil Saxe ; Ohavay Zion ; Wisconsin Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 38.0076568, -84.50231309999998 17 Glendover Elementary School in Lexington, Kentucky. All three of Judy Saxe's children attended this school. 4115 Lexington Hadassah I know that you've been very involved with Hadassah. Both at the local and the national level. Um, if you could briefly explain what Hadassah is, and tell me about your involvement with Hadassah, both locally and nationally, um, when you got involved and why. Judy Saxe discusses her involvement with Hadassah both locally and nationally. Betty Rosenberg ; Frankie Yeaties ; Hadassah ; Hadassah Hospital ; Hannah Levi ; Israel ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Madison, Wisconsin ; Marilyn Moosnick ; Ohavay Zion ; Synagogue Sisterhood ; Temple Adath Israel ; Young Judaea ; Youth Aliyah ; Zionism ; Zionist Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Volunteers 40.7643899, -73.9759029 17 The national headquarters of Hadassah http://www.hadassah.org/ Hadassah's national website 4766 Lexington women's leadership in Hadassah since 1969 Judy, it's my understanding that not just yourself but, um, others that there's a, a s--disproportionate amount of women involved in Hadassah... Judy Saxe discusses why there have been so many women in leadership positions at Hadassah from Lexington since 1969 to now. 1969 ; Alex Cohen ; Anita Baker ; Becky Golden ; Betty Rosenberg ; Ellen Henson ; Esther Moskowitz ; Frankie Yeaties ; Gail Cohen ; Hadassah ; Hannah Levi ; Harriet Cooper ; Israel ; Jewish community ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Marilyn Moosnick ; National board ; Ohavay Zion ; Ross Moosnick ; Women in leadership ; Young Judaea ; Zionism ; Zionist Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Volunteers 38.05257599999999, -84.72994640000002 17 Versailles, Kentucky, whose Hadassah functions as part of the Lexington Hadassah chapter. 5234 Feelings on Israel Judy, I know that, um, you know, you come from a really significant Israeli background, you're... Judy Saxe discusses her views on Israel and its politics. Antisemitism ; Democratic ; Extremist ; Government ; Hitler ; Holocaust ; Homeland ; Israeli ; Jewish ; Jews ; Netanyahu ; Palestine ; Political views ; Refugees ; United States of America ; Western world ; Zionism ; Zionist Israel. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Politics and government ; Religion and politics 31.046051, 34.85161199999993 17 Israel 5664 Role in the Jewish Federation Besides your involvement in Hadassah, I know that you've been very active with the Jew, Jewish Federation. Judy Saxe discusses her involvement in the Jewish Federation. She has been involved with Camp Shalom for many years. She is also a member of the Jewish Community Association. Saxe was the director from 1981 to 1986. AIPAC ; Camp Shalom ; Central Kentucky Jewish Association ; Chuck Gordesky ; Congregation ; Dave Weckstein ; David Weckstein ; David Wheel ; Directors ; Earl Levi ; Federations of North America ; Gail Cohen ; Irv Rosenstein ; Jack Miller ; Jewish Community Association ; Jewish Community Forum ; Jewish Federation ; Judy Levine ; Kitzy Neuberger ; Leon Cooper ; Mike Bayer ; Molly Schwab ; Presidents ; Rabbis ; Romany Road ; Shelly Dare ; Southland Drive ; Stanley Rose ; Steve Caller ; Sue Friedman ; United Jewish Appeal ; Waller Avenue ; Waller Pharmacy ; Washington, D.C. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.02967, -84.51757629999997 17 Waller Avenue, where the office for the Federation once was located. http://jewishlexington.org/camp-shalom The website for Camp Shalom 6530 Funding for the Lexington Jewish Federation Today Judy, I just recently read that the funding for the Federation has declined. And I also read that Judy Wortman, who is the present director, is moving, and there's going to be a search for a new director. Judy Saxe discusses why she thinks funding for the Federation has decreased recently. Boston ; Directors ; Funding ; Fundraising ; Herschel Wheel ; Israel ; Jewish community ; Jewish Farmers of America ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish Future Farmers ; Judy Wortman ; Lexington ; Steve Kahler ; Wealth Fund raising ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 6970 Changes in Lexington's Jewish community from 1962 to 2015 Okay Judy, um, you've seen a lot in Lexington, you've been really active in several organizations, in the synagogue, in the Havurah and Hadassah, and, uh, the Federation, and if you could just-- Judy Saxe discusses the changes she has witnessed in Lexington's Jewish community over time. The Jewish community has increased in size, and consequently become more diffuse. The development of social services has become more sophisticated. She provides a narrative of strong community support, especially around funerals and supporting family members left behind. She discusses the Jewish community's attempt to both support Jewish community and the broader Lexington community. She also discusses the impact of greater assimilation on the preservation of Jewish identity. 1962 ; Acculturation ; Anti-Semitism ; Assimilation ; B'nai Brith ; God's Pantry ; Hadassah ; Havurah ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Jewish identity ; Judaism ; Lexington ; The Jewish Federation Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 38.08534899999999, -84.51849600000003 17 The address of God's Pantry in Lexington, Kentucky. This is where Judy Saxe and other members of the Jewish community help to stock shelves. https://www.godspantry.org/ The website for God's Pantry Food Bank. 7373 Change in Jewish gender roles Looking back, what, if anything, would you change about your relationship with Judaism, if there's anything? Judy Saxe discusses how she would change her relationship to Judaism. She expresses her desire to become a rabbi and calls attention to the way Jewish gender roles have changed throughout Saxe's entire life. Brandeis University ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Feminism ; Gender roles ; Hebrew Union College ; Jewish ; Jewish Theological Seminary ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Rabbis ; Sally Prizand Gender issues ; Jewish leadership ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Sex role 39.138374, -84.52022599999998 17 Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati, Ohio. http://huc.edu/campus-life/cincinnati The website for Hebrew Union College interview Judy Saxe discusses her family history. She discusses her and her family's relationship to Judaism. Both her father and her grandfather were rabbis. Judy Saxe examines her family customs of keeping kosher and Shabbat practices. Judy Saxe discusses the role of Judaism in her life in college at Brandeis University. She participated in the Student Zionist Organization and eventually took a year off school to do a work-study program in Israel. Judy Saxe discusses the series of events that led to her and her family living in Lexington, Kentucky. Saxe discusses how her family observed the high holidays in Lexington, Kentucky. She discusses her children's experiences growing up Jewish in Lexington. Judy Saxe discusses the formation of the Lexington Havurah and how it has transformed today. Saxe discusses her involvement with Hadassah both locally and nationally. She discusses why there have been so many women in leadership positions at Hadassah from Lexington since 1969 to now. Saxe discusses her involvement in the Jewish Federation. Judy Saxe discusses her views on Israel and its politics. Judy Saxe discusses the changes she has witnessed in Lexington's Jewish community over time. She discusses how she would change her relationship to Judaism. She expresses her desire to become a rabbi and calls attention to the way Jewish gender roles have changed throughout her entire life. CRANE: For official purposes, today is December 1st, 2015. My name is Janice Crane, and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I' ; m honored to be here today with Judy Saxe. Thank you for doing this, Judy. Uh, what was your name at birth? SAXE: My name at birth was uh, actually Beverly Judith Shapiro. And my parents very quickly changed it to Judy. CRANE: That' ; s interesting. When and where were you born? SAXE: I was born September 19th, 1935, Madison, Wisconsin. CRANE: And are your parents alive? SAXE: No, my parents passed away uh, quite a number of years ago now. CRANE: And what were your parents' ; names? And their occupations? SAXE: My -- oh. My mother was uh, Leila Sinaiko, that' ; s spelled S-I-N-A-I-K-O, um, and she, uh, was a phys ed teacher. She went to -- graduated from the University of Wisconsin. My dad, uh, who was born in Palestine, in Jerusalem, uh, came as a young teenager to this country. Uh, ended up with both a rabbinical degree and a law degree. And um, wound up finally uh, working as a rabbi, but had done a number of other things as well. His name was David Shapiro. CRANE: Did your parents and/or grandparents names change when they came to America? SAXE: I don' ; t think so. I think um, I remember my paternal grandparents, my grandfather was Nahum, my grandmother was Nahama, and I don' ; t think they ever changed it. My grandmother actually never really learned English. Their -- their common language was really Yiddish. And um, my maternal grandparents um, my grandmother' ; s name was Rachel. So, it might have -- they might have used the Yiddish version at some point, but it was Rachel. My grandfather was Alex. And there was a kind of a Russianized form of it that uh, that evidently, they called him. But by the time I knew him, he was Alex, and that was how he was listed in -- in the obituary and all of that sort of thing. CRANE: And where were your grandparents from? SAXE: My paternal grandparents, um, actually both were born in Jerusalem. CRANE: Oh. SAXE: My grandmother was from an -- a very old, old family, many generations in Palestine, part of the Jewish community. And -- before it became Israel. And my grandfather' ; s parents migrated to Palestine in around 1850. My grandfather was born, along with multiple siblings, born in Jerusalem. My maternal grandparents, my grandfather -- well they came from a small town in Belarus, and -- called -- they called it Kapulya, but on the Russian maps, it' ; s -- Belarussian maps, it' ; s Kapul. And my grandmother originally came from Poland, and I do not remember how she met my grandfather, but they lived -- they were married and lived in Kapul, and uh, had, um, all but I think -- I think they had seven of their eight surviving children all in Belarus before they came to this country, and I believe one of my uncles, the youngest, was born here in the United States. But they came to Madison when they -- when they came, because my grandfather' ; s uh, other members of my grandfather' ; s family had already come to -- to Madison. CRANE: Do you have siblings, Judy? SAXE: I have a brother. CRANE: And what is his name, and where is he in the lineage? Is he older, younger? SAXE: Oh, he' ; s about uh, three and a half years younger than I am. And he was born in Green Bay, Wisconsin. My dad had a congregation there at the time he was born. Um, and um, he uh, he lives in Jerusalem. He went back to uh, Israel in 1959, actually as a student, and basically he never left. He -- he did a lot of traveling, he lived in Rome and worked in Rome for a number of years at one point, but he uh, basically lived in Israel the whole time. CRANE: And what is your husband' ; s name? SAXE: My husband' ; s name is Stanley. Stanley Richard Saxe. Um -- CRANE: And do you have um, children? And what are their ages and do you have grandchildren? And what are their ages? SAXE: Yeah. All -- all of the above. (laughter) I -- we have three children. The oldest is Harriet, who all of our children were born here in Lexington. Uh, the oldest is Harriet, who was born September 13th, 1963, and uh, the next one was Natalie, born November 17th, 1965. Uh, and Neil was born December 10th, 1967. Um, they all live in the state of Washington now. And uh, Harriet is the mother of our two younger granddaughters, Zoe, who' ; s almost 16, and Olivia who' ; s 13 and a half. And Natalie is not married, Neil has our oldest granddaughter, Hila, that' ; s spelled H-I-L-A, uh, it' ; s a Hebrew name which means uh, " ; halo" ; or " ; aura." ; And um, she was born in Jerusalem at Hadassah Hospital in August of 19-- no. Yeah, 1997. CRANE: Great family. Uh, your father was a rabbi, how would you describe your parents? Both your mother and your father' ; s relationship to Judaism? SAXE: Oh. Well um, you know, obviously with my dad being the rabbi, it was a very strong connection. It was -- he was a -- it was an interesting -- he was an interesting person in -- in terms of his Jewish identity. And uh, as was my grandfather, my grandfather uh, pretty naturally, as one would expect, was Orthodox. He was a rabbi. And he uh, he was Orthodox, but he was really very modern in his outlook. He was very interested in psychology, he um, you know, on the one hand, while he was Orthodox in his personal observance, he was not -- uh, he was not overly um, oppressive in terms of how he related to me, who was clearly not Orthodox. And um, my dad, uh, actually got his rabbinical ordination, semikhah, from my grandfather' ; s yeshiva, which he had established in uh, New York City. And uh, he -- so he was Orthodox in upbringing, and Orthodox in his training, but he really was Conservative, just out of personal conviction. Um, in terms of his approach to Judaism. And he was -- he was very vibrant. He had a wonderful personality, and he related really well to people. So as a rabbi, he was very popular. And um, it made it easy for people, he was very flexible with people about um, what they did and they didn' ; t do. So it made it very easy for people to relate to him. And confide in him. Um, and he always, you know, one of the things I -- and he was a very, really an ardent Zionist. So, there were two sort of major streams in our home. One was obviously a commitment to -- to Jewish living, and he used to say that uh, you know, you have to look at the positives of being -- to enjoy being Jewish. It was not a burden. And the other thing was that he had a -- a terrific commitment to the survival of the Jewish people, and -- and to the establishment of the state of Israel, as did my grandparents on both sides, really. But my paternal grandparents, um, my grandfather left Palestine at the time of the First World War, and my grandmother came with the children, uh, they ended up in Poland for a few years, and then -- until the war was over, and then came after the First World War was over. And my paternal grandparents removed to -- returned to Jerusalem in the early 1950s, and lived there until they died. And my uh, dad, I talk about that because my dad really had a lot of the same feelings, and one of the earliest things I remember was his talking about the British white paper, and what it meant in terms of um, not allowing Jews to re -- go to Palestine, and what this meant in terms of the Jewish communities in Europe, and what was happening, uh, during -- during the rise of Nazism in World War II, and after World War II. And he was very strongly committed to that, and involved in working toward the establishment of the state. And my mother also um, you know, was a very -- I would say that even though my maternal grandparents' ; orientation was Orthodox, they were not that -- they were not strict. Um, as strict about it, although it was a kosher home, and my grandfather was the pillar of a small little Orthodox congregation in Madison, and uh, you know, certainly attended synagogue regularly, uh, every Shabbat. Um, and they -- they too had a very strong commitment to the idea of a -- a Jewish state, a Jewish homeland. And um, Henrietta Szold, who was the founder of Hadassah, had a sister who lived in Madison, whose husband -- her brother-in-law was uh, in the department of psychology at the University of Wisconsin. And my grandmother and my mother and um, all of the family, you know, really had a very strong commitment to the idea of the um, establishment of a -- of a homeland. CRANE: When you um, described your home as being Orthodox and kosher, and yet you say it wasn' ; t strict, what did -- what do you mean by that? SAXE: Oh. Well my grandparents. OK, so my -- in my paternal grandparents' ; home, it was pretty strict. You didn' ; t light lights on Shabbat and you, you know, didn' ; t light a fire. Uh, when they returned to Jerusalem, and I was there for a year during uh, after they had come back, and I would go to visit, their -- in -- in uh, Jerusalem at that time, that was the ' ; 50s, they had these sort of little stoves that you would um, I guess they were electric, I don' ; t remember. It doesn' ; t matter so much whether they' ; re electric or gas, but the idea was that it was a stove that could be kept at a very low flame, and that was how they kept the food hot. And my grandmother would make cholent every Friday and, you know, if I came for lunch, and later my brother said the same thing, you know, you would come, and that was your Shabbat lunch. And they did not -- uh, they didn' ; t light lights, they didn' ; t, you know, use the telephone, they certainly didn' ; t ride, um, and it -- it was just their way of life, and -- and that was the way it was when they lived in Brooklyn, when I was little, before they had returned to Israel. And we would visit, and um, with my maternal grandparents, uh, they would turn on lights. My grandmother did not cook or sew on Shabbat, or iron or do anything of that sort. Uh, and my grandfather basically um, I guess, by the time I really remembered and knew him well, he was retired. But uh, he could walk around the corner to his synagogue, so he didn' ; t need to ride. And um, I don' ; t remember if they would play the radio, but they were not quite as strict in their observance as my paternal grandparents were. CRANE: And in your home growing up, what was that like? What was Judaism like there? SAXE: Oh, so -- yeah. So, so ours was already, I don' ; t know if you would call it more Americanized or whatever. But uh, my mother wouldn' ; t sew, she would turn on the stove, but she wouldn' ; t cook the cooking. She always -- we kept a kosher home, she always uh, you know, basically cooked for Shabbat on Friday. I mean, yeah, there -- we went through a long time when she would make her own challahs and so on, but it was all done on Friday. She really didn' ; t cook on Saturday. You know, of course my dad would -- would be at uh, services on Shabbat morning anyway, as a matter of course, and Friday night services. Uh, being a Conservative congregation, uh, they at that time, they had um, services -- late Friday night services, around eight o' ; clock at night. Um, you know, now a lot of Conservative congregations not -- you know, not only Orthodox but Conservative, and even Reform congregations, will have an earlier Friday night Erev Shabbat service, so that everybody, you know, does the Kabbalat Shabbat, welcomes Shabbat, and goes home for dinner. Um, when I was growing up in Conservative congregations, they would, you know, because people worked until five, six o' ; clock, whatever, so they would come home, they would have their dinner, and then come to services, you know, later in the evening on Friday night. But um, my dad walked all his life, walked to the synagogue on -- until after the last few years when he really, um, he could -- he was still mobile but it was very difficult for him to walk, and my brother would take him. Uh, he would -- went to live with my brother in Jerusalem, after my mother died. And my brother would take him to the synagogue, uh, for Shabbat morning services. But um, up until that time, he walked every -- on Shabbat. CRANE: What did your parents teach you about Judaism, and how did this impact the choices you made in life? SAXE: Oh. CRANE: That' ; s a tough one, huh? SAXE: Well, you know, I -- I lived -- I lived in a rabbi' ; s home, so um, we -- we celebrated holidays, I, you know, from a young age, even before my dad had his congregation in Green Bay, but particularly after that, we moved back to Madison and he did not have a congregation in Madison. Um, you know, it was just a given that I would go -- go to Hebrew school, that I would go to Sunday school, they certainly believed that I, as a girl, should be educated Jewishly. Uh, I think my mother always regretted that she had very little formal Jewish education, it was more of what she learned from her parents at home, and, you know, my grandmother in the kitchen kind of thing. But -- uh, and in later years, I remember she would go to Hebrew classes that, you know, the congregation would run adult Hebrew classes. Um, but uh, and uh, except for one summer, I -- every -- from the time I was about nine years old, I was going to Jewish camps, and I -- for a couple of summers, I went to Roma in Wisconsin, right after it was established. And there, it was -- the idea was to -- Hebrew immersion, and so I really, I began to learn conversational Hebrew, along with the more conventional Biblical Hebrew that I learned in Hebrew school. And um, so it was just, it was -- it was just sort of a -- a given that that was what we were going to do. Um, once I was -- (laughter) also, I belonged, in Madison, we moved -- we moved to Green Bay when I was about three, three and a half. We came back to Madison when I was about nine. And my dad didn' ; t -- as I said, did not have a congregation. So for a variety of reasons, we belonged to all three congregations that existed in Madison at the time. At the Orthodox congregation, because of my grandparents, at the Conservative congregation because my dad wanted -- and my mother wanted me to have the Hebrew school, you know, Jewish education. And the Reform congregation, because uh, he was a very good friend of the Reform rabbi, who was uh, a German refugee, and uh, who -- and they did not have Hebrew school, but they had a confirmation class. So I ended up being both bat mitzvah and confirmed. Bat mitzvah at the Conservative congregation, and confirmed in the Reform congregation. So, I had a lot of Jewish. (laughter) CRANE: They kept you busy. Uh, where did you go to school? Um -- SAXE: You mean what -- CRANE: University. SAXE: Oh, university? I went to Brandeis. CRANE: And what did you study there? SAXE: I majored in sociology. And um, and then I got a master' ; s degree in social work at the University of Washington. I was already married, and we um, went out to the University of Washington for Stanley uh, to take a uh, post doc -- two year post doc program in periodontics, and I ended up in graduate school there. CRANE: What involvement did you have in the Jewish organizations while you were on campus? And why, if you did? SAXE: Oh, on campus? CRANE: Mm-hmm. SAXE: Um, I got very involved, and when I -- when I was in high school still, the -- and especially in -- well, in Madison, um, the -- the then-main Jewish Zionist student organization was something called the International Zionist Federation of America, IZFA. And uh, I knew about it and had contact with it there, because uh, we were also friendly with the Hillel rabbi, and once I had gone to Roma, he had a sort of a Hebrew conversational group that would meet Sunday evenings at his home, and so I used to go, even though I was still in high school. By the time I got to Brandeis, and then we moved to Florida and I had two years of high school in Florida. So there, I got very involved in Young Judaea, which is a Zionist youth movement. And uh, so by the time I got to Brandeis, IZFA was really dying. It had been -- it was pretty left -- left-wing, I don' ; t know that that was the only reason, I think it just sort of had run its course. And had been, you know, at its strongest when the state of Israel -- when the War of Independence was going on, the state of Israel was established, and I got to college, it was 1953, I mean it wasn' ; t so long after Israel had been established. And um, it -- so there was a kind -- so I was involved on campus, and then there was a conference that was held to -- in New York, to discuss what kind of a campus Zionist national, nationwide -- campus Zionist organization we wanted to have. You know, what we would develop. And out of that came something called the Student Zionist Organization. Now all of this had been -- also was supported by uh, through some of the adult Zionist organizations like the ZOA, Zionist Organization of America, Hadassah, and they had actually formed something called the American Zionist Youth Commission. So, we came under -- the Student Zionist Organization came under their umbrella, and we got support from them. So um, I was very involved in that for the first two years at Brandeis. And then I took a year off, went to Israel on a work study program that was run by the Jewish Agency for Israel, and actually went as a representative of SZO. And with -- and to do that program, you had to make a commitment to come back and work within your organization or movement for two years. So, that' ; s what I did. (laughter) And um, we did a -- we organized, you know, a number of -- there were a group of us in the greater Boston area. And so, it wasn' ; t even so much what we did on individual campuses as what we tried to do within a broader scope and, you know, Boston has tens of universities and colleges, and thousands and thousands of Jewish students, so we ran some educational programs, we uh, kind of partnered with the Boston University Hillel, and ran a number of um, holiday programs, Chanukah and Purim, and uh -- which is how I met Stanley. Um, we uh, did some of the same thing at Harvard Hillel. So, it was really kind of a broader, you know, broader base. CRANE: Hmm. Before we get too much into your life here in Kentucky, is there anything unique we should know about your family background or childhood years that you haven' ; t already mentioned? SAXE: Oh gosh. Um, yeah I would say, yeah, I think -- I think one of the -- the most critical things that happened to me, there were a couple of things. One is that we moved from Wisconsin to Florida, and that was um, traumatic as me for a teenager but ended up being very beneficial in other ways. Because I got involved in Young Judaea, and through Young Judaea, I ended up going to Israel for the first time in 1952 for the summer. And that was really a -- a huge, um, it had a huge impact on me. Uh, it was really um, you know, it was something my -- my dad had always said we' ; ll -- we' ; ll go and visit when things settle down. And um, and then I ended up being the first one to go back, uh, from our family. Um, and I was there for six weeks, and it just um, it just was a pivotal time in my life. It was uh, and so it was then that I found out about this program that I did four years later, when I was in college. So I would say that was -- that was really significant. And also as a result of that move, I ended up at Brandeis. If I -- I' ; m not sure where I would have gone if we stayed in Madison, but if we had moved somewhere besides Florida, which uh, had a very strong element in the community that supported Brandeis, which was very new at the time, I probably would have ended up at a different campus, and, you know, would have had a very different experience. CRANE: Hmm. OK. So what brought you to Kentucky? SAXE: All right. So, skipping over a few years. So um, I met Stanley when um, I came back from Israel, from my year in Israel. And we were married in 1958. And he, uh, he -- I graduated from college, and he graduated from dental school, and decided that he wanted to uh, go on and uh, specialize in periodontics. And um, through a series of connections, which he' ; ll tell you about, um, we ended up in Seattle at the University of Washington, uh, for his program. And uh, which took two years and then he was teaching for a couple of years, and we were just about ready to settle in Seattle, because we really loved it. Um, and had really built a wonderful community of friends. And he got a call from the uh, dental school here, they had not started -- they were just getting ready to open the dental school, and he was recruited to come here in the department of periodontics. Uh, so he was part of the opening faculty in 1962. CRANE: Wow. SAXE: Uh, it was a very small group, very dynamic, very exciting. Uh, mostly, you know, we were among the youngest but, you know, nobody was very old. And uh, and that' ; s what got us here. CRANE: From a Jewish perspective, what was the biggest adjustment, moving to Lexington? SAXE: Um, it wasn' ; t -- it -- it really wasn' ; t uh, much of an adjustment. Growing up in Madison, which was basically a smaller Jewish community, not as small as Lexington, but a small town, small city, small town Jewish community, um, you know, it -- it was -- that was not so different. I -- what the big change really was that we came here, and we were no longer graduate students, and really began to feel a response -- an adult, grownup kind of responsibility to -- to get involved and be a part of the Jewish community. I mean, in -- in Seattle, um, yeah I went to services at various places and I had Jewish friends and, you know, and we would celebrate the holidays and the last year we were there, we did join a congregation. But it was, you know, still kind of operating on a graduate student mentality. So, I didn' ; t feel as much of a responsibility to uh, even though I was working within the Jewish community, at the Jewish family service. But, you know, I didn' ; t have that sense that I had to be, you know, take on some of the responsibility, and that certainly was something that happened here. I -- it wasn' ; t a shock, it -- it really was -- was kind of nice, because everybody was very welcoming. Ohabei Zion in particular was -- is a very warm congregation, and the people we met at the beginning were very welcoming, very supportive. And -- and basically, just about everybody that we met in the Jewish community was -- was really lovely. CRANE: Describe Judaism in your home as an adult in Lexington, and as a parent. SAXE: Well -- CRANE: And maybe how it was different between -- from what it was like when you were growing up. SAXE: Yeah, we um, yeah uh, we definitely tried to observe the holidays, and joining a congregation meant that we were, you know, if not every week, we were certainly attending synagogue more regularly, and certainly for the high holy days, and special occasions, and so on. And at home, just um, I remember the first -- I think it was the first Rosh Hashanah that we were here even, having another young couple over, and, you know, the cook -- cooking -- cooking myself, that was a big -- that really, for me, was a big change, because up until then, we always had friends, you know, grownup friends who would invite us for the holidays. And um, this was, you know, beginning to really build our own -- our own home, uh, around the holidays. And uh, once we started to have kids, um, you know, it became much more -- it became not only what we were doing for ourselves, but, you know, wanting to create that kind of an atmosphere, a positive atmosphere, for our children. So, you know, certainly, you know, having holiday meals, and holiday celebrations, and you know, giving the kids a sense of being Jewish, and growing up -- for them, growing up in Lexington, where they were, you know, very often, the only Jewish child in their class, you know, it meant very often, you know, I was, you know, the mom who trudged off to school to explain what it means to be Jewish in the classroom as part of a, you know, whatever um, you know, outreach. And it was -- but what I found in Lexington, I' ; m, you know, chances are, I know that there were country clubs that were restricted, but what I found in terms of our day to day life, the people we met and in the schools where my kids went um, you know, was more interest in what it was to be Jewish, because they had never met Jewish people before. And I remember um, one of the kids, uh, had a student teacher who was the wife of a minister, and she was so excited. (laughter) She' ; d never met a Jewish person before. So that was, you know, a lot of what our experience was, when the kids were little. And uh, and then becoming committed to things like Hebrew school, and Sunday school, and um, I did some teaching at the Hebrew school and Sunday school at Ohabei Zion, and I was -- ended up being the principal for, I don' ; t know, about five, six, seven years, something like that. Um, so it um, you know, it -- again, became part of our lives, you know, day to day lives, because uh, I was -- I was involved with things like that. And -- and the sisterhood. Um, and so on. CRANE: What were your children' ; s involvement in the synagogue or the religious school, the community activities? Um. SAXE: Well, their Hebrew school, you know, was a -- well Sunday school, as soon as they were old enough, which started really at a kindergarten level, uh, all the way through bar and bat mitzvah, and we really didn' ; t have -- we did, uh, when I was Sunday school principal, we started a class, um, for junior high, at the time that was junior high, uh, for junior high kids. So beyond bar and bat mitzvah, not every child in the congregation who was bar and bat mitzvah ended up in that -- those classes, but quite a number did. And um, that was something that I really -- and, you know, got support from the parents, and -- and the uh, the congregation. The idea that their Jewish education shouldn' ; t end with being bar or bat mitzvahed, that there really was more that they could do. So, it was a Sunday school class, if we had a good teacher, it was a good experience, if we didn' ; t have such a good teacher, it was not such a great experience. Um, we were very fortunate for a couple of years, when I was principal, um, I think probably more when my middle daughter Natalie, um, was -- was going through that -- that age, time, um, we had a really terrific, uh, woman who was a professional educator. And she -- you know, she really did a great job. But the kids, I think it was important for the kids, because it was another way to connect to their Jewish peers. You know, they didn' ; t all go to the same school, they didn' ; t necessarily see each other on a daily basis. The other thing that was important for all three of my kids was Young Judaea, which we established. There was the -- the congregation went from having just -- just before we came to Lexington, having uh, given up its formal affiliation with the Orthodox movement. And began to move toward a more Conservative approach, uh, one of the big things was the men and women sitting together instead of separate. And um, they um, uh, it -- but they were not affiliated with the Conservative movement. So, we weren' ; t -- uh, we weren' ; t involved with the Conservative youth -- youth groups at all. And Young Judaea, through Hadassah, and through -- largely through the impetus of Marilyn Moosnick, we started to establish Young Judaea groups for the different age levels here. And that really made a difference, because the kids, it meant it was something that reached across congregational lines, um, to some extent it was also their -- Young Judaea has camps, summer camps, and the kids were going to camp, so they were meeting not only um, having some of their Lexington friends go, but meeting kids from -- particularly from all over the Midwest. Uh, and some of those friendships still exist today. You know, 30, 40 years later, so um, so that was a part of it. Um, so -- and then, you know, because I was um, when I was Sisterhood president, really the kids were too small, it didn' ; t matter that much. But when I was Sunday school principal, they were all still in Sunday school, so that, you know, so they knew there was this close connection. And also, our oldest daughter Harriet actually worked for a couple of years while she was in high school as Rabbi Schwab' ; s assistant. He had already become blind, and needed somebody, you know, an assistant in the classroom when he taught Hebrew school. And she -- she was his assistant for several years. CRANE: I know that you were actively involved in the formation of the Havurah. Uh, can you first describe what the Havurah is, and tell about the Jewish community' ; s climate that was key to its formation? SAXE: Um, there was, in the ' ; 60s and ' ; 70s, the Havurah movement began. And it really, interestingly, it really began at Brandeis, way after I had left. But the original Havurah uh, was a group of students at Brandeis who wanted uh, something, there was a lot of um, feeling within the -- certainly the younger adult community, student community, younger adult community, that they wanted something that was not as structured as most congregations were, and are in many cases, that it was too stratified, it was too -- too rigid and, you know, it didn' ; t matter what the stream of Judaism but that, you know, that the -- the um, governmental social structure was very stratified, very kind of rigid. And so, a group of students got together, and they were knowledgeable about uh, Jewish things, and uh, they wanted something that would be egalitarian, and uh, really to find new ways to live their Judaism. And um, so there was -- a group began, um, in the Boston area. A lot of -- really out of Brandeis. And they had a house in Somerville, Massachusetts, um, where they -- they lived and they celebrated, and they actually wrote um, one of the -- one of the couples was -- a collaboration of several others, wrote a couple of guidebooks, um, that -- talking about ways to celebrate -- to observe Jewish -- Judaism and celebrate, you know, going back to recipes for making challah, but then how do you make um, a whole wheat challah? Because that' ; s healthier. Um, but, you know, ways to celebrate Sukkot, ways -- how, different -- a different approach to Pasoch so that when you had a Seder, you didn' ; t necessarily read from the Maxwell House Haggadah but there were, you know, they wrote their own Haggadahs and related it to current events and current times. Reconstructionist Judaism had done some of this, but this, you know, this was really the idea that you' ; re doing it for yourself and your peers and you' ; re doing it together. So, this was really a growing movement. In the meantime, here in Lexington, um, the Ohabei Zion was um, you know, was still very -- very much, even though they would call them -- might have called themselves conservative, as opposed to Orthodox, it certainly wasn' ; t Orthodox. But yeah, I mean for starts, because you had the mixed seating and, you know, there were other things. But, you know, there was still -- women were not counted in the minyan, girls could be bat mitzvahed, but only on Friday night. Um, that Rabbi Schwab really uh, I remember talking to him about teaching my daughter Harriet the Torah, and he was absolutely horrified at the thought. And I -- he said, " ; Why would you want to do that?" ; And I said, you know, we had a pretty good working relationship, he and I, and -- because I -- that' ; s when I was the principal. And he -- and he said, " ; Why would you want to do that?" ; And I said, " ; Well, I think it just would make it more meaningful for her if she, you know, was able to, you know, follow and kind of had that extra knowledge." ; " ; Well the next thing you know, she' ; s going to want to read Torah." ; And, you know, as far as he was concerned, that was just, you know, one of the -- the boundaries that he could not see being crossed. Um, when a number of people -- really, it was our -- sort of our peer group, who at the time were -- we were what, in our late thirties, into our forties, um, and our kids were -- were teenagers, uh, or soon to be teenagers, and we started, you know, talking about what we could do, for example, for girls to make it more meaningful for them, for -- to maybe make, you know, make the services more open, and uh, allow girls to -- to do more, and not necessarily cut them off as soon as they were bat mitzvahed. That was the other thing, the cutoff line was bat mitzvah, and then that was it. They got up on the bima to lead the Friday night services, and that was the end. Never again. And um, and other things, just to uh, you know, kind of broaden out, and uh, because there was that -- kind of that mood going through the American Jewish community. And in a lot of places and in a lot of ways, um, in the Reform movement, it was moving towards more traditional observances, you know, from what had been very -- in their definition, you know, very rigidly uh, you know, what they considered modern. And beginning to open themselves up to some of the customs and observances that they had kind of pushed aside. So there was -- there was just a whole new feeling, and um, and a group of us got together and we were just not happy with what was -- what was happening, and the kind of, not only the response from the rabbi, but then the response from the leadership of -- of the synagogue. There was a lot of bitterness at -- at that point towards us, because they felt that we were somehow stepping over our bounds, and there was very much a, sort of a climate that if the rabbi said this was the way it should be, that' ; s the way it had to be. And so, we formed what we called a Havurah, with the idea that we would follow Conservative practice, but that we -- and by that time, the Conservative movement was counting women that we would be egalitarian, that we would be peer-led, that we would basically create our own -- our own way of expressing our -- our Jewishness. And um, so when we started, for example, Stanley put -- my husband put together a um -- and -- and my dad was very supportive of this, and he really was very helpful. Um, he sat down, Stanley had been uh, chairman of the religious committee at -- at Ohabei Zion so he, you know, was pretty familiar with the ritual and stuff. But he sat down with my dad and over a period of a number of days, in those early days, just my dad went through all the high holy day services, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, uh, you know, what you could do that would be, you know, that -- that was basic and important to keep in, what you could perhaps uh, alter a little bit, or change a little bit. The conservative movement had put out a um, uh, a machzor, the prayer book for the high holy days, for young people. For kids. And there were wonderful readings in it, and wonderful adaptations of the service. So we took stuff from there, we took -- used, you know, the traditional machzor, and put together Rosh Hashanah services and had Rosh Hashanah services, had Yom Kippur services, had our own break the fast, and it was um, and everybody -- everybody who came and was a part of it, and there were -- I don' ; t remember how many there were to start, maybe 15, maybe 20 couples at the most, and not everybody was from the synagogue. There were people from the temple, who were affiliated with the temple, and there were quite a number of families, of young couples, who were here in Lexington, and were not interested in joining a congregation. They really came out of this um, you know, wave of -- of uh, anti-establishment feeling. And uh, a lot of them have since moved out of town, and any number of them are leaving lights in -- in the congregations now, they became leadership in the congregations, but this really brought them in. We also were very open to uh, people in mixed marriages, and we were also, at one point, we uh, were probably the first uh, congregation -- I mean, if -- if you want to characterize us as a congregation in the strictest sense of the word, what uh, to have a gay couple as membership. And they no longer live here, but they still talk about, when we have seen them and when people, you know, mutual um, friends have come back and forth or whatever, you know, we -- we still get very positive uh, feedback from them. It meant a lot, and they are very involved Jewishly, still, in their own community. CRANE: What year was this? When? SAXE: That this all happened? CRANE: Mm-hmm. SAXE: Let' ; s see, the Havurah began in 19-- we had our 30-year anniversary what, about 7, 8 years ago? So in about 19-- in the 1970s, uh, I' ; d have to go back. Um, yeah, because let' ; s see, ' ; 63, ' ; 76, ' ; 75. Right, oh and girls in the -- at Ohabei Zion had to be bat mitzvahed at age 12, not 13. So, let' ; s see. When Harriet was bat mitzvahed, it was ' ; 75, and Natalie was ' ; 77. So it was right around ' ; 77, ' ; 78 that we started. And um, there -- for a time, we had um, there were a lot of families that came in that had little kids, and sort of the original core, our kids were all bar and bat mitzvah and beyond. So it wasn' ; t so crucial for them, but um, there were quite a number of couples who joined, who had little children. And for a while, we ran our own preschool program. You know, I mean not a -- every day, but like a preschool Sunday school. And that was also with volunteers, and then it just got to the point where, you know, people ran out of steam and -- and resources, and the knowledge to really -- and motivation to go further. And that was a time when um, a lot of those younger couples who had not previously joined a congregation became affiliated with a congregation so their kids could go to religious school. It -- um, it was a significant time for them. And for their decision, some of them stayed with the Havurah, some of them left eventually. CRANE: So there was like, dual membership of -- SAXE: Yeah, yeah. We never -- some of our early Ohabei Zion people resigned from the synagogue, but a bunch of us stayed affiliated. So it was not all of one or the other. There was a lot of anger at Ohabei Zion that we had done this, um, and uh, but very interesting, because it -- soon after that, Rabbi Schwab became too ill -- well, he was getting increasingly debilitated, and the congregation realized that they needed to make preparations for when he could no longer officiate. And started a rabbinical search, and I was actually on the search committee that chose Ori Smith. And I interviewed him down in Florida before they brought him up here to be interviewed here in Lexington. And it was -- the decision was that -- and by then, also interestingly, there were already the next wave of the sort of the next generation of families came along, and they had the same concerns that we did, it wasn' ; t that we were so out of line, it was just that we happened to be the first. But, when the next group of young families came along and they were agitating for the same kind of thing, I think everybody realized that, you know, hey maybe, you know, we need to do something as a community, as a congregation. So, when the -- when we started the rabbinical search, it was with the understanding that whoever came in would be willing to have an egalitarian congregation, and that there would be this movement, this change, within the congregation. And I remembered interviewing Rabbi Smith in Florida, and talking about how, you know, what the expectations were. They wanted somebody who was traditional in the way he lead the service, but they wanted somebody who would be open to these changes. And um, and I must say that he was -- Ori Smith was very sensitive to that, and he came with a plan for how he wanted to transition, so that he would not offend Rabbi Schwab. He was very -- very sensitive to the fact that Rabbi Schwab had been the rabbi, and had these, you know, rules that he lived by, these standards that he lived by. Sadly, Rabbi Schwab died just about the time that Ori came. I, you know, it was just one of those things that happened. But, Ori really initiated, introduced, you know, training for the women, and counting the women in the minyan, and using women as part of the service. And I can still remember some of those early services at the old building, uh, on Maxwell Street, you know, when the women were beginning to do that, and it was -- it was a huge, huge step forward. And very emotional, I think, for a lot of women. And I found that true around the country. Um, when I uh, in the ' ; 80s, when I was the director for the Federation here in Lexington, and I would go to meetings for small community directors and things like that, you know, there were other communities, you know, going through similar -- not identical, but very similar kinds of experiences, and for women it was a very groundbreaking, very emotional time to suddenly find your status within Judaism changing. CRANE: Judy, you really are a wealth of information. SAXE: I' ; m sorry, what? CRANE: I said, you really are a wealth of information. (laughter) Um, how has the Havurah changed over time in Lexington? Is it still active? SAXE: Yeah. CRANE: OK. SAXE: The Havurah is still active, uh, we basically are aging in place. Um, over the years we had a lot of members who moved away. Uh, apart from people who, you know, still live in Lexington who were members and are no longer members. Um, at our peak we were probably about 40, 40 -- between 40 and 45 family units. Right now, we hover around -- around 30, between 30 and 35, probably low thirties. And that includes a lot of singles, um, we don' ; t really have anybody now who has young children. Most of us are grandparents. Um, I' ; m just trying to think, you know, of everybody who' ; s a member. Uh, we still, you know, are -- have adult children, certainly. Um, and we keep talking about what' ; s going to happen, you know, because we -- and we' ; ll get occasional, somebody will come into town, move into town, and, you know, who wants -- who' ; s attracted by the kind of uh, structure we have which is, you know, pretty loose, but it' ; s there. I mean we have officers, we try to meet at least once a month, we uh, we' ; ve had to make adaptations as we' ; ve shrunk. Uh, you know, for instance, on the high holidays, we do two days of Rosh Hashanah services, and generally a portion of our members go to their respective congregation. You know, congregational buildings on the first day, come the second day, or vice versa. So, we' ; re never sure if we' ; re going to have a minyan, although so far, we have. But, the people who -- those of us who are part of it, and not all of them are, you know, from the original group, quite a number have passed away. Even so, there' ; s -- there' ; s a lot of loyalty. And it' ; s very special, because it' ; s so small. And interestingly, a lot of big congregations, particularly um, in the Reform and Conservative movements, uh, have started Havurah within -- within the congregation, so that there will be a group that -- of young families, for example, that, you know, have kids about the same age, and they' ; ll meet for Shabbat dinner instead of going to the synagogue, or they' ; ll have extra celebrations or whatever. Um, but that' ; s had mixed success. So, we um, we still -- we still meet. We have -- once a year, we have an education retreat that is uh, probably why uh, you know, a certain portion of people stay as members, because even through much heartrending, soul searching, we' ; ve just decided that it should be for members only. We did agree that people could invite at least one or two guests uh, last year, and, you know, really ended up that it was still our same core. And we bring in -- we pay minimal dues, because we don' ; t have a building, we don' ; t have a rabbi. And um, so we -- the money that we accumulate, we use, you know, for something like edu-- an educational program. And we usually have some pretty -- pretty neat stuff. CRANE: Hmm. Um, to the best of your ability, how did your children, not that we know what our children' ; s thoughts and feelings are all the time, but how did your children feel about their Jewishness in Lexington? SAXE: Um, hmm. CRANE: Did they maybe describe any experiences with anti-Semitism in Lexington? Um, like what was the non-Jewish community' ; s reaction to them being Jewish? SAXE: The girls really didn' ; t, I don' ; t think much. Neil had um, was uh, was -- was a soccer player, and he went out for soccer at his high school, and ran into a coach -- well, they -- they prayed before every game. And he wouldn' ; t pray. (laughter) And the coach got very angry, and supposedly said something, alluded to his being Jewish. Uh, Stanley went over, had a talk with the coach, who said, " ; No, no, no, you know, just" ; -- but he felt that -- that, you know, Neil wasn' ; t showing respect, and whatever, whatever. And he dropped out of soccer. Um, at -- at the high school. There also, um, I think probably Natalie and Neil both, in terms of their high school experience especially, you know, the whole -- well, I -- wait, I take it back. When Natalie was six years old, and in first grade, um, you know, there' ; s a lot of Christmas that goes on in the schools. You know, and supposedly it' ; s not religious, it' ; s all secular stuff. But, uh, there' ; s a lot of holiday stuff that goes on. And um, she uh, clearly felt it, I -- I wasn' ; t even as aware of it, but her teacher told me that uh, she -- she was doing some assignment at her desk, and -- and the teacher walked over, and it was the first African-American teacher at Glendover School, and really a terrific gal. And clearly very sensitive to minority issues, and she said there was Natalie, saying something like um, happy, happy, I don' ; t know if it was Chanukah or whatever, and yucky, yucky Christmas. So, you know, clearly there was -- there was a consciousness about it. And when Neil was in second grade, his teacher had been -- was really known in the school as somebody who went all out with Christmas decorations, and put up a lot of religious pictures, you know, the -- the Virgin Mary, and all that kind of stuff. So, Merle Weckstein and I went over to talk to um, the teacher. Well we talked to the principal, and we talked to the teacher, and uh, she said well, you know, this is uh, something about uh, this is fine art that I' ; m putting up. That was it. " ; This is fine art." ; You know, it was some -- like a Rembrandt or a Reubens or something, of some saint. And we said, " ; Well then why couldn' ; t you put it up in, you know, show, do it a -- a section on fine art in March?" ; And she said, " ; Oh but then it wouldn' ; t be the right time of year." ; (laughter) So, you know, there -- there was stuff like that. But the -- but they really, I think, were pretty firmly -- had a pretty firm sense of themselves as Jews. Because I also um, uh, you know, they -- there were discussions, certainly when they were in high school, there were some discussions about holiday observance, and I know that -- that the kids spoke up in class. I mean, they were not afraid to uh, or reluctant, you know, to -- to talk about how they felt and what they thought was right. So, I think they all came through it with a pretty strong -- strong sense of identity. CRANE: What supports or challenges were there in raising your children Jewish in Lexington? SAXE: Wait, say that again? CRANE: What supports and challenges were there in raising your children Jewish in Lexington? SAXE: Oh, support and challenge? CRANE: Yeah. SAXE: Well, I think the uh, the Jewish community in general, and I think Ohabei Zion in particular, had -- was a -- is a -- it was and is a very close community. Um, now that our kids are out of -- out of Lexington, and we' ; re older, and we' ; re not around as much, you know, we' ; re not as involved, but it was very much a part of our lives. And there was a lot of support, and the other kids, whether they -- whether they loved each other, you know, there weren' ; t very many of any age group, so whether they loved each other so much or not, it didn' ; t matter. But there was still that -- there was a bond. And the parents, you know, there was a lot of support, uh, at the parent level. And just at the congregational level. Um, so that was -- that was very good. The other thing was really -- there were a couple of other things. One was that my parents were just uh, you know, that it was because um, they were so positive -- Jewishly identified in a very positive way, that was really part of my kids' ; , you know, environment, and their -- their life experience. Um, I think that the challenges were, which -- which I had growing up too, in -- in Wisconsin, because it was a, you know, small Jewish community in a, you know, very much a very small minority. Um, you know, almost everybody you know is not Jewish. And you' ; re sort of the novelty if you' ; re Jewish. And um, so, you know, what happens when they -- when they get to dating age, when they uh, when there are uh, activities that happen on Shabbat? Or even more significant, during the major Jewish holidays? Um, you know, always going through the issue of uh, teachers giving tests on Rosh Hashanah, you know, that kind of thing. Um, or other holidays when some of the more observant kids were staying home. Um, so that' ; s always a challenge. And um, I think -- you know, I really, I -- I -- I' ; ll have to ask my kids sometime how they felt about it in retrospect. Um, I think Neil, the youngest, was the most of -- of the three, um, was the most assertive about his being Jewish, and the most sensitive to uh, things that were going on in school, or in the broader community that were um, you know, sort of uh, you know, expressing the Christian spirit as opposed to a -- a nonsectarian holiday kind of a -- a feeling. But, you know, they all came through it. (laughter) Fortunately, I mean, or not everybody does, but -- but our kids, our kids really, really did, in -- in the sense that I think they still have that -- that sense of identity. CRANE: How does your relationship to Jewish identity, uh, compare to that of your children' ; s now? SAXE: Oh, I -- I' ; m probably more -- more um, more active in -- in observances than any of them are. And I -- I don' ; t think of myself as a particularly um, observant person in the sense of, you know, sitting down to Shabbat dinner every Friday night or, you know, whatever. But I' ; m prob-- probably more involved than they are, although um, my oldest granddaughter, interesting, um, my daughter-in-law ended up, they' ; re -- they live in a very small community up in northwestern Washington. And um, my daughter-in-law, who grew up in -- was born in the States, but grew up in Israel, has ended up teaching Hebrew at the Hebrew school there. And my granddaughter, for her last two years of high school, was actually a teaching assistant in the Hebrew school, and in the Sunday school there. So um, uh, they' ; re -- they sort of got pulled into it willy-nilly. (laughter) CRANE: It works. I know that you' ; ve been very involved with Hadassah. Both at the local and the national level. Um, if you could briefly explain what Hadassah is, and tell me about your involvement with Hadassah, both locally and nationally, um, when you got involved and why. And you certainly have a strong Zionist background, from your family. Um, but if you could just speak a little bit about that. SAXE: Uh, OK. So, when I was a kid, I was involved in Young Judaea, which um, very peripherally, I knew had some support from Hadassah. When I was in college I, you know, spoke about my college involvement, and I knew that there was some support. I knew that my -- my mother and my -- and her mother were -- and other Jewish women in Madison, you know, were -- were active in Hadassah, and I remember, you know, going, they would have uh, these mother child luncheons, you know, things like that. So I remember that, but by the time I got into high school, and even college, it was like that was, you know, something my mother did that my grandmother did when she was alive, and, you know, wasn' ; t for me. And it wasn' ; t until we came to Lexington, um, and that was part of what was so nice about the Lexington Jewish community. Every -- every Jewish women' ; s organization, the two sisterhoods from the Temple Adath Israel and Ohabei Zion, and Hadassah, and at that time, the um, the -- oh, oh, um, I' ; m all of a sudden blocking. Um, but another women' ; s organization that' ; s not here. But every um, I' ; ll remember it in -- in a minute. But anyway, uh, they would -- everybody that they could identify as newcomers, all the women, each of the organizations would have a luncheon in August or September, around the time of the -- the holidays, working around the holidays. And each organization had uh, one week of the month, you know, uh, Hadassah was, I remember the -- the programs were the first week of -- the first Wednesday of the month, the Synagogue Sisterhood was, I think, the second Tuesday of the month. You know, it was that kind of thing. And, but all the young -- the new women that came in were invited to an opening luncheon by each of the organizations, and um, as -- as guests. And each -- each one had a, you know, would have some kind of a special program. But the idea was to welcome them, to introduce them to the Jewish community, and to get to know them. I -- you know, it just was this wonderful, warm kind of reception. So, um, it was a natural for me to gravitate toward uh, toward Hadassah, because of its strong Israel orientation and, you know, the Sisterhood at Ohabei Zion because we joined Ohabei Zion. So, when I be-- so, and then my mother, who I think probably thought that we had really gone out into the -- the boonies, and, you know, what -- whatever was going to happen to our Jewish lives, uh, enrolled me as a life member in Hadassah. And I didn' ; t think much of it as -- at the time, but uh, I got involved, there -- Marilyn Moosnick was president of the chapter at the time, and she was, you know, very dynamic, very attractive, very appealing. But there was a whole group of women who uh, were -- were really just, you know, also equally involved and committed. I mean, everybody from Hannah Levi, who was one of the founders back in the late ' ; 30s, to people like Betty Rosenberg and Frankie Yeaties and um, I' ; m trying to think of some of the others. Um, you know, just who I considered older women. (laughter) But they were very, very welcoming, very accepting, and um so, you know, if you showed any interest, they were very quick to mentor you. So, that was on a local level that it was very easy for me to get involved in Hadassah. And on a more universal level, the idea that we supported um, the -- the medical center in -- in Israel, that we supported Youth Aliyah which had always been very much present in my life. My dad really was strongly committed to Youth Aliyah, and used to do a lot of speaking and fundraising for them. And that was basically a Hadassah project. And uh, just -- just the whole concept of what Hadassah stood for. Um, and then as I got more involved and started to be on the local chapter, and be -- and began to get involved in the region, which was at the time, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia. Uh, and meet, you know, meet other women, it just, it was just a wonderful other community of women and through -- especially in the ' ; 70s, as the women' ; s movement began to emerge and, you know, become very vocal and very prominent, Hadassah really went along with it. So, a lot of my um, evolution of -- in terms of -- of feminism. You know, my own personal feminism really came through Hadassah. Um, we had a great women' ; s discussion group here for many years, we had some really interesting seminars on a regional level, and then um, I went to my first national convention in 19-- I think it must have been 1971. And that was not only because it was a very exciting, you know, really to see thousands of women, and all working for the same thing, but, you know, uh, just by chance, met people who had connections to my family. I mean, my parents and so on, and so, it was a whole construct, and in 1970, in 1955, ' ; 56, when I was there for -- in Israel for the year studying, um, the original Hadassah Hospital was lost, was -- Israel lost access to the original Hadassah Hospital because the uh, Jordanians, uh, conquered the old city of Jerusalem, and the hospital was in the eastern part uh, beyond -- east of the -- the walls of the old city. And we did not have access to it. And Hadassah had to -- used just a whole smattering of buildings in the city in the west part of Jerusalem, uh, for clinics, until they could build a new medical center. In 1955, when I was there, uh, we went on a hike one day, a group of us, and the hike -- the leader said, took us to a spot outside of the city, and he said this is where there' ; s going to be, they' ; re building a new Hadassah Hospital. I knew about Hadassah, I knew about the medical work, and how it was all fractured and, you know, in different places. And he said, this is going to be the new hospital. And then in 1970, we came on -- my husband took a sabbatical, and we went to Israel, and he was teaching at the dental school at Hadassah. And at that time, it was the only dental school in the country, and lo and behold, there was -- here was this whole medical center, and this -- these -- in the hills, where I had been that used to be bare. I mean literally were bare, and here was this whole medical center. And it just was, you know, just was such an amazing emotional experience for me, and uh, you know, we got to meet people who were on the staff, and -- and it just -- just was a very unique thing. So, when I came back two years later, I became the chapter president, and that uh, meant that I was part of the region board, and then um, I became very active in the region, and ultimately became the region president, which made me a member of the national board. And that was in 1987. And uh, and I' ; ve been on the national board ever since, and it' ; s -- it just um, you know, Israel -- Israel is very important to me. And I can -- and I, you know, clearly remember uh, the stories that came out of the Holocaust, and I very clearly remember when Israel became -- when the vote was help in the United Nations for partition, and sitting with my grandmother, and listening on the radio to the results of the vote. And I remember when the state was declared, and how important that was for us. So, each of these things uh, is very much a part of my -- the fiber of my being. And uh, Israel has remained that way for me, and I -- you know, now my brother lives there. And uh, his kids were born there. We have other uh, you know, some other family, we have a lot of friends. Uh, and uh, and I still -- you know, I still feel that the work that Hadassah does, that that um, not only that it benefits Israel, but that it really offers an opportunity for the Jewish community here to have a very real and practical bond with the state of Israel that is not just, you know, something that' ; s -- that' ; s in theory, but there' ; s very -- their effects on the ground. CRANE: Judy, it' ; s my understanding that not just yourself, but um, others, that there' ; s a -- a disproportionate amount of women involved in Hadassah at the national level from this Lexington chapter. SAXE: (laughter). CRANE: And I' ; m -- I' ; m just curious why you think that has happened, um, here? Why does Lexington produce such phenomenal Hadassah leaders? SAXE: (laughter) Right, we go around -- CRANE: And maybe if you could even mention some of them, besides um -- SAXE: Oh, well yeah. Um, I think that -- that I think Marilyn Moosnick had a great deal to do with -- with what happened. But she wasn' ; t alone. I mean there were -- there were people like -- CRANE: Right. SAXE: -- Hannah Levi, there were people like -- I really need a -- a -- a directory to try and remember, but um, uh, the -- um, Esther Moskowitz, and Becky Golden, and you know, there just were -- yeah, you know, the old timers. Uh, and Frankie Yeaties, and Betty Rosenberg, and uh, I' ; m -- you know, just off the top of my head, I' ; m trying to think. Um, uh, who -- who worked, you know, some of them were presidents, some just worked, you know, as volunteers, um, you know, and I' ; m talking about a lot of these people who are no longer here, who have, you know, died, many years ago. But they -- there was that strong feeling of um, of purpose. And it kind of -- oh, Ellen Henson. You know, and Anita Baker, I mean it -- it really cut across all parts of the Jewish community. And whatever, you know, the -- the -- the separation between the Reform congregation and Ohabei Zion, whatever that was, Hadassah really bridged that. And um, so that was uh, so there was a strong core of support. So, Marilyn was a unique -- Harriet Cooper, you know, was somebody who, you know, was very involved. Um, but Marilyn was, you know, was a -- was a significant personality. I mean, her -- her whole -- the, you know, charisma that she had. But she really came out of a very supportive -- these women that I' ; m talking about, the older women, I mean they nurtured her, and supported her, it wasn' ; t that she sprang out of nothing. There was a -- there was really a strong base of support, so that, you know, if she came up with an idea to do something, I mean, people came along and there were -- they would do other things, and -- and, you know, or build on what she had done. So, um, she wasn' ; t fighting, you know, fighting against things, she really -- there was a very positive um, uh, climate. So, OK. So she became a region president. And that put her on the national board. And that was in 1970-- no, 1969. And then, we went off on sabbatical in 1970, Gail Cohen became president in 19-- of the chapter in 1970. And she also uh, you know, was -- was -- is particularly bright and capable, and she kind of got -- and when she became active on the regional level, she also became identified as somebody, you know, with terrific leadership qualities, and who could uh, really um, move into a -- a national position. So she was region president from ' ; 81 to ' ; 84. And that put her on the national board, and she' ; s been on the national board ever since. And Marilyn, you know, was already on the national board and, you know, so on. And then, I became president in 1987. And so then there were three people from the -- on the national board from Lexington, Kentucky. Which really was unusual, as far as the national board went. Because the way they had representation at that time, the system of representation was such that if you lived outside of the New York metropolitan area, it was a relatively small number of women who could be on the national board at any one time. I -- I don' ; t know, it -- it was um, you know, what it was, I guess we could have easily have not been reelected, because we had to go through election processes, I suppose we just as easily could have not been reelected. But I think we supported each other, I think that we got very strong support from our colleagues from our region. Um, it -- it just was a happenstance. Um, there' ; s a funny story when -- Alex Cohen and Ross Moosnick are the same age, and they were in Israel on Young Judaea, the year -- of course, the same year. And what you -- what you did at the time, you spent a certain amount of time in Jerusalem having conventional -- pretty much a conventional academic track, and then there were -- there was a period of time, broken up into several segments, where you would live on a kibbutz, or live on a moshav or, you know, do something that related to some special interest you had. And it just happened by chance that first, I forget whether it was Alex who came first or Ross, but they both ended up with the same family at different times on a moshav. And the -- the moshav father was just amazed that there were -- here were two kids from a little, you know, town in -- in Kentucky. From the United States that, you know, he' ; d barely heard from. He said, it must be a hotbed of Zionism. (laughter) And so that became -- that sort of became our -- our mantra, you know, we' ; re a hotbed of Zionism. And more recently, Lynn Ferness lives in Versailles, but, you know, it' ; s really part of the Lexington chapter of Hadassah. So uh, you know, there are still three of us on the national board. Uh, and it -- and it is kind of unusual. But -- CRANE: It is. SAXE: -- I think, I think we just, we' ; ve been very fortunate here, and what was a very positive supportive atmosphere. When we came in the -- in the ' ; 60s, has continued and I -- I really believe we are a very um, really a very special, it' ; s a very special community, and it' ; s a very special -- so as a result, Hadassah has really benefited from that. I mean, we' ; ve got -- again, it' ; s women from across the whole community, um, we are by and large very supportive of each other. Um, whereas you get, in some communities, you know, people are just more interested in tearing each other down than building each other up. And this has been something that I -- I think has -- is at the core of this -- of this community. CRANE: Judy, I know that um, you know, you come from a really significant Israeli background, you' ; re -- you know, your family was born in -- you have family members that were born in Palestine, you' ; ve been actively involved in the Jewish community, significantly Hadassah, um, how has all this impacted your own personal views about Israel now, its politics? SAXE: Good question. (laughter) Oh, I' ; ll tell you what I tell a lot of my non-Jewish friends when they ask me. So, I believe in the state of Israel, and I believe that -- I believe -- just to the very fiber of my being, that it -- it is a homeland for the Jews. Whether -- whether I' ; m living there or not. And I -- you know, and I really believe that we have a right to be there. We -- we have a historic right. Do I always agree with the government of the state of Israel? No. Do I always agree with the government of the United States of America? No. Does that mean that I have given up my citizenship in the United States of America if there' ; s a president or a political movement that' ; s going on that -- that is uh, abhorrent to me? I do not. I believe very firmly that, you know, in -- in this -- that this is a democratic country, that we are a heterogeneous country, that despite some of the awful, hateful things that happen. That there is an underlying foundation that, you know, that -- that will -- will survive. And I really feel the same way about Israel. It really, it' ; s -- it' ; s not a -- it' ; s not a democracy with the same kind of political structure that is here in the United States. But is it a democracy in the sense that there are citizens -- every citizen has rights? Yes. Is it a country where people can speak their minds? Very definitely. (laughter) Um, I think that sometimes, uh, because of that, um, you know, Israel gets -- gets a bad rep because you get extremist views there, just like you get extremist views here. Um, I think that um, both Jews and non-Jews are very quick to react -- to react to things that come out of Israel. Um, you know, it' ; s sort of like a little tender spot that you have, like you have a little sort on your -- on your arm and you keep rubbing at it because it itches, or hurts or whatever. You know, and it' ; s -- it' ; s -- it' ; s kind of there. But, um, it' ; s -- it' ; s a wonderful country. And they' ; ve taken in, I -- you know, if you look at the history of -- of Israel, and so many people who are quick to criticize it today have no sense of what the history of Israel is. I mean, listen there are a lot of Americans who have no sense of what the real history of the United States is, either. So, they, you know, they don' ; t understand what that -- that there was uh, there was a community there before the state of Israel was declared, that there was, you know, a growing Jewish presence before Hitler, the rise of Hitler. That it wasn' ; t -- yeah, did -- did the Holocaust have an impact on the ability uh, of the uh, the community there, the -- the Jews in Israel, to establish a state with support from the Western world? Yes, there -- there was that, it certainly had an impact, the reality, the Holocaust was just too horrendous for anybody to wrap their minds around. But, you know, then -- then Israel took in thousands of DPs. Israel took in thousands of refugees from Middle Eastern countries where the, the governments were -- were hostile to Israel and had attacked Israel, and they were either actively expelling the Jews, or um, doing -- you know, taking action against them. That meant that they -- they had to leave. Um, Israel has taken in Russians, Israel has taken in Ethiopians. They' ; re still taking in Ethiopians, they' ; re still taking in Russians. They' ; re taking in the French now because there is a lot of concern about anti-Semitism in France. They' ; ve taken in thousands from South -- from the South American countries because there have been various waves of anti-Semitism in South America. You know, so it' ; s a polyglot country, and depending on who' ; s coming in when, you know, depends for example, the signs you see on the stores, they' ; ll be in Hebrew and Arabic, when the Russians were coming, there was a lot of Russian, and a lot of signs in Russian. You still see a lot of that. Uh, you know, the Russians have really assimilated in terms of language. So on the -- they still are, you know, fairly significant um, national or ethnic uh, group, you know, and -- and have their own political uh, parties and issues. Um, similar things with the Ethiopian community. But, um, you know, Israel -- Israel, what, this is -- Israel is um, ' ; 52, so it' ; s 67 years old. I mean, we' ; re not talking about a country that' ; s been around for thousands of years. And it' ; s still evolving. Um, I -- I -- I' ; m not happy with the current government but, you know, I' ; m not a citizen. If I were a citizen, would I have voted for Netanyahu? Absolutely not. And I think that um, I think that -- that, you know, some of the things that have happened that are, you know, in terms of public relations for Israel' ; s image, you know, that are negative, I think are, you know, you can lay at his feet. But, he also, you know, let' ; s be realistic, he is -- among the right of center, he' ; s probably among the more moderate. There are people who are way more right-wing. But, you know, there are also people in the center and to the left of center. And, you know, who are working to balance that. And uh, uh, you know, will there be changes? I think there will. Is it going to happen in my lifetime? Who knows. But when I was a kid, I never thought there would be a state of Israel, either. So. CRANE: And there is. SAXE: And there is. (laughter) CRANE: Besides your involvement in Hadassah, I know that you' ; ve been very active with the Jew-- Jewish Federation. Without going into great detail, because I know you' ; ve done that in previous interviews, um, can you just share a little bit about what your role with the Federation has been over the years? Um, and -- and how it has changed over the years? SAXE: Oh. Well, let' ; s see. It started with the -- with Camp Shalom. Our famous uh, you know, the mother -- the mothers from the two Sisterhoods getting together and -- and starting um, Camp Shalom. And from that came uh, what we call the Jewish Community Association. Judy Levine was very, very much a leader in helping that to come about. And over a lot of objections from particularly the rabbis, because they saw this as somehow taking away from, you know, the -- the strength and the resources of the congregations, um, that quickly evolved and took over, and along with the camp, it -- it also absorbed the uh, Jewish Community Forum, which had been sort of a freestanding uh, but organizationally supported series of lectures. And uh, as -- and then, when the idea came about to really bring the campaign, which had been also a separate unit on its own, the UJA, United Jewish Appeal. And there were -- there was sort of a committee of -- of five men who um, whose -- who ran the United Jewish Appeal campaign here. And there were, you know, a lot of people who would help uh, you know supported it in terms of soliciting members of the community, Leon Cooper and Shelly Dare and David Weckstein, um, but who was -- was on the steering committee, I don' ; t remember exactly everybody. But um, people like Stanley Rose and David Wheel, and um, probably um, you know, I -- I don' ; t remember all of the others. But anyway, um, then the concept came about, you know, knowing that the Federations of North America existed, the idea of bringing the campaign and all of these elements together under one umbrella, and that was -- and Chuck Gordesky and Dave Weckstein were pretty instrumental in that, each being president of their respective congregations. And decided that this would be beneficial for the community, and uh, so Chuck was the first um, president of what was then the Central Kentucky Jewish -- became the Central Kentucky Jewish Association. And David was the second president, and then it went on, Judy Levine and Gloria, um, Katz, and Jack Miller. And not necessarily in that order. Um, and that was after the JCA, the Jewish Community Association, had been in existence for about six or eight years, and there had been a number of people, Gail Cohen had been a president and -- and Judy, and I mentioned Judy Levine, Mike Bayer, who doesn' ; t live here anymore. And then, anyway, they started CKJA, and uh, for a couple of years, they had somebody working as kind of a secretary administrative assistant, out of her home, um, Kitzy Neuberger, who doesn' ; t live here anymore. And then they decided that what they wanted to do was really establish an office and make it, you know, more of a functioning, you know, or conventionally functioning community organization, and also, affiliate with the federations -- Jewish Federations of North -- North America. And they wanted to hire somebody as a staff person. And that' ; s where I came in. And uh, I applied for the job. It was a part-time job, I loved the idea, it was community organization work and that had been part of what I had trained in, in graduate school. And um, I got hired, and we set -- set up an office in a little building, office building off of Southland Drive, and hired a -- a secretary, and um, we were there for a couple of years, and then we moved over to Waller Avenue, into the basement of one of the buildings that was owned by Steve Caller and Irv Rosenstein. And then from there, we moved to Romney Road. And by then, I was still the -- I was still the um, director. CRANE: How long were you the director? SAXE: I started in -- pardon? CRANE: How long were you the director? SAXE: Uh, 1981 to 1986. Who were the presidents? Judy Levine and Jack Miller, and Gloria Katz were the presidents that I worked with. And um, and then we moved over to Romney Road into the -- a basement apartment of one of those buildings in back of Waller Pharmacy. And um, uh, and then um, and that' ; s -- and I -- we were there, and I -- I must have been there for the better part of, at least a year. I mean, all these moves came pretty fast. Um, and uh, and then I stepped down. And so, it was -- it was an exciting time, because we uh, it was really beginning to run the campaign out of a central -- not just the idea of an office, but a central body, Earl Levi was the campaign chair when I began. And uh, his daughter Leslie was working for AIPAC, and so he initiated uh, a um, a one-day uh, trip to Washington D.C., to um, AIPAC trip, which was very exciting. And uh, subsequently we had at least three or four others. And um, you know, met with AIPAC, met with your Congress people, met with uh, heard from various Senators and Congressman speaking, met with AIPAC people, met with -- uh, visited the Israel embassy. Visited the Pentagon. I mean, it was um, really very interesting. AIPAC was able -- would basically set up these -- these trips, and it was really very -- very, very good, very educational. And then, ultimately, really after my time, they uh, organized some missions to Israel. Uh, which was very -- we also adopted, during -- during my tenure, was um, uh, oh, the um, uh, another block. But a project in Israel to pair American Jewish communities with Israeli communities, and focus some of the fundraising on channeling money to these communities, which were basically disadvantaged. And uh, you know, some of the lower income neighborhoods, the immigrant neighborhoods that had never quite made it beyond a certain level. And we paired with Louisville on a -- on a neighborhood in -- in Netanya. Um, so we did that, I remember visiting the neighborhood, and meeting some of the people, it was pretty neat. And um, uh, anyway, it was -- it was an exciting time, because we were growing, you know, the -- we -- the um, Jewish Community Forum really petered out, because speakers became way too expensive for us. What we used to be able to get people for, you know, $500, maybe $1,000, you know, all of a sudden, fees were going up to 5,000, and 10,000. We couldn' ; t afford it. But uh, but we ran camp, you know, Camp Shalom. And um, was important. And the other big thing that we did was to initiate a Jewish family service, and hire somebody as a social worker. And Molly Schwab, Rabbi Schwab' ; s daughter, was one of our first social workers. Um, and that was -- that was important. Because when -- when we -- when we started to talk about developing a community-wide Jewish organization, Sue Friedman, who really also deserves a lot of uh, recognition and acknowledgement, um, was really one of the -- also one of the leaders, and more than that, helping to formulate a direction. And one of the things she was concerned about was um, aging, people who were aging in the community, and meeting their needs. And we um, carried out a -- a survey of every older Jewish adult we could identify in the community. This was in the early ' ; 70s. The interesting thing, not long after the camp was established, and so this was sort of the next project. One of the interesting things we discovered at that time was basically, almost every older Jewish adult at that time was from Lexington and had family here. And did not express any need for any kind of outside help, because their families were here to take care of them. I mean, you know, look at your family, or look at um, or the Himesons, or -- or all the Levis or, you know, whoever it was. There was a whole family network and that' ; s who took care of them. And it really wasn' ; t until really in the ' ; 80s, when I was the director that we began to find older adults who had either come here to be with their children, for instance who had come to the university, and then the kids left, the children -- the son or daughter left, and the older parent was still here, often in a nursing home or needing extra assistance of some kind. And -- or there were even some notably, some older people who had come here because the University of Kentucky offered the Donovan Scholars program, and they saw this as a good place to retire, and all of a sudden, we had older adults who were in need of care, support, whatever it was. And they didn' ; t have that family network. So that was one element. There also were the Russians, we started the Russian -- the program of bringing in Russians at that time. Uh, there were families who needed assistance and support, so that was another element. Not, you know, not large numbers, but still in all, they needed -- they needed help. And then, we began to, you know, as -- as we began to offer these kinds of services, all of a sudden, there were -- not all of a sudden, but gradually, I should say gradually, there were people who really needed other kinds of social services, whatever it was. I mean, we went through a time when I was still working, when there were any number of families who were looking to adopt, and one of the things that I was doing was helping to find sources for them, resources for them to go to, to, you know, have -- carry out an adoption. I didn' ; t do that myself, but, you know, at least to help them find those resources. Uh, and uh, you know, so there were all these things that became apparent, that either had not been so apparent before, or because the community was, up until really, IBM and the university began to expand, had been, you know, so much a localized community. You know, these were families who came and established businesses, and sometimes uh, you know, it would go on for several generations or whatever, or even if they spread out into other things like say, you know, David Aidey, so Lewis had -- his son still had the, you know, the uh, whatever it was, you know, he did with the wholesale -- CRANE: Dry goods. SAXE: Um, yeah, dry goods. Thank you. Um, you know, Mike became an attorney, and his David became a fireman. But, you know, they were still here. And um, all of a sudden we were getting families that came, like us and -- and all of, a lot of our closest friends, we banded together because we were here without our parents, and this is not where we were born and grew up, and -- but we all were about the same age, we all had kids about the same age, and it was a very natural bonding, and that was part of really what helped bring about Camp Shalom. You know, we saw a need for our -- our age group, our generation. CRANE: Judy, I just recently read that the funding for the Federation has declined. And I also read that Judy Wartman, who is the present director, is moving, and there' ; s going to be a search for a new director. Judy will certainly be missed, but um, can you just share your thoughts about why the funding for the Federation has declined, and what, if any, changes the Federation board may be looking for in a new director. SAXE: I' ; m not totally certain why the funding has declined. I know that in the early years, certainly a significant part of fundraising was tied to Israel. And there were crises, the Six Day War, the Yom Kippur War, uh, the uh, bringing in the Russians, bringing in the Ethiopians, so there was a, you know, an emergent cause. Um, you know, so I don' ; t know if it' ; s because we don' ; t have crises and to motivate people, that could be one thing. It -- I don' ; t think it' ; s one -- any one single thing, I think it' ; s much more complex than that. I think that may be part of it. I think that a lot of the younger generations don' ; t -- just don' ; t see this as a significant um, uh, target for their -- their philanthropic giving. I think that um, some of the wealthier, the older wealthier families who gave significantly, um, are no longer with us. Um, I think that some of the wealthier families who are with us, um, just don' ; t see this as a priority. They don' ; t have that attachment. On the other hand, there are some of the wealthier families who do give significantly, but not enough of them. In a bigger city, um, you know, and I um, have spent a -- I know people in Boston, for instance, who are very involved with the Fed -- their Federation, and what goes on in, for my own professional experience, even though it' ; s in the past, um, you know, you get -- you have people who can afford to give significantly. And I mean, in the hundreds of thousands, or the millions. And um, they have to be courted, they have to be developed. Um, I think that some have been, some have just held themselves -- very consciously, have held themselves apart. Um, and it' ; s -- it' ; s a real -- it' ; s a real problem. I think also, it' ; s very difficult to get people to volunteer to do some of the hands-on kinds of work that -- that our -- my parents were doing that we were doing, that, as the generations have gone on, they' ; ve moved away from that. Um, it' ; s very hard to get people to volunteer to solicit. Um, and when you do, um, you know, we -- even though we try, for example, here, uh, in Lexington, to reach out to everybody we possibly can. You know, if you get somebody to commit at 18 or $36, that' ; s wonderful because they feel that they' ; re a part of it, and we want them to feel that way. But, 18 and $36 is not going to do it. You need tens of thousands of dollars to really make it go, and you need -- you need a -- a core of people. You know, in the -- for a community the size of Lexington, you need, in the tens of people who do that. In the bigger cities, you have hundreds. And we don' ; t -- and we don' ; t have one -- the closest we probably have had is somebody like Steve Kahler, who has that kind of depth of commitment and feeling about it. And um, he' ; s not around as much anymore, um, his -- his peers are not necessarily um, participating at the same -- at a similar level. Um, and, you know, you get retired faculty people like us, and, you know, we -- I would say from what I know, we -- we probably do OK in terms of what we contribute. But um, you need a lot more -- I don' ; t think um, a lot of our peers do that as well. And um, and it' ; s -- so it' ; s tough. It' ; s very tough. And as a result, the money that we give to Israel, and Israel causes, or causes beyond the local Jewish community, has declined. And, you know, it' ; s kind of a catch-22, so then it isn' ; t something you go to somebody and say listen, you know, we' ; re giving to -- in the old days, um, um, uh, what' ; s his name? Wheel. Not David. Um, Herschel. Herschel Wheel, you know, had um, was a farmer. He -- he raised sheep. He sold -- he was a significant purveyor of wholesale lamb meat, right? And when -- and when they had this old UJA committee, one of the things they gave to was the Jewish Farmers of America. Because that' ; s what Herschel wanted, you know? Well, he participated and he was very generous, but by golly, some of that money went to the Jewish Farmers of America -- or it was Jewish Future Farmers, I don' ; t -- you know, but it was that kind of a thing. And we don' ; t -- we don' ; t raise enough money to do that kind of thing, and some of the -- and I don' ; t, I' ; m not sure that we have people in the community who would up their participation or become more involved if -- if we did. I don' ; t know if they have that sense of, you know, what' ; s beyond -- beyond Lexington. CRANE: Interesting. OK Judy. Um, you' ; ve seen a lot in Lexington, you' ; ve been really active in several organizations, in the synagogue, in the Havurah and Hadassah, and uh, the Federation, and if you could just -- leadership roles that various people have had, if you could somehow, sum up how -- what you see as the changes that you' ; ve witnessed in Lexington, Jewish community, over the years. Has it changed? SAXE: Oh yeah. CRANE: And what do you see as the most significant? SAXE: Um, OK. So, when we came it was a very small, fairly inbred Jewish community, but very, very close. I' ; ve talked about this, you know, very close, I felt very warm and supportive. Um, we' ; ve grown, so that um, none of us really know everybody in the Jewish community anymore, even -- even if I probably never knew everybody, I certainly felt as if I knew almost everybody. And um, uh, so we' ; re -- we' ; re bigger, we' ; re not huge, we' ; re still a small Jewish community, but um, I think being bigger, that it' ; s a little more diffuse, because I think that even with the Federation, even with an organization like Hadassah, or even B' ; nai Brith, which struggles to, you know, keep going and really also reaches out beyond the congregational boundaries. It' ; s very -- it' ; s -- it' ; s a challenge to reach out and connect with all these people. Um, so I think that' ; s a change. I think um, you know, that -- and on the other hand, there are ways in which we' ; re more sophisticated. Um, you know, as -- as with being able to offer professional Jewish social service uh, resources. Um, we um, I think there' ; s still -- there' ; s still a strong thread of -- of support, mutual support. Um, you know, where do we -- where do I see it now? I see it sadly, when I go to funerals. And you, you know, you see -- see that cutting across lines that people really care enough that they reach out. And it' ; s not only funerals, but it' ; s the care and support for the -- for the family members that are left behind. And I see it on, to a certain extent, with some of our older community members who um, you know, are in need of support, supportive services. And the fact that it' ; s not simply turned over to a social worker, but that there are volunteers in the community who still feel that they want to reach out and do something in that way, I think it' ; s um, just as a general comment, not even so much about Lexington. Um, but true heroes, well people get a lot more satisfaction out of being able to do something hands-on. Now they may be very selective about what they' ; re -- what they' ; re going to do, but that' ; s very meaningful. So, you know, I -- as I think about it, for example, we -- which is something that has changed, and I think for the better, you know, that publicizing to the community that we go to help stock um, the shelves at -- at God' ; s Pantry, that um, the temple uh, provides a lot of support to uh, one of the local, you know, nearby elementary schools, as does the synagogue, doing the backpack -- backpacking things. So, um, I think we are trying, as a Jewish community to um, you know, while -- while we retain our Jewish identity, to really also be a part of the community at large. It brings challenges. One, I was interviewed, what is it now, about 20, 25 years ago. And the question was, do you think it' ; s easier to be Jewish now than it was 50 years ago? Well, you know, that was, we' ; re talking, back in the ' ; 20s, ' ; 30s, ' ; 40s, 50 years ago. And there was a lot of anti-Semitism visible, expressed anti-Semitism in this country. And certainly in Europe, and um, so, you know, people said it -- the saying was in Yiddish, " ; It' ; s hard to be a Jew," ; because you were constantly afraid that you were going to be attacked in some way, and you certainly, you know, were -- were limited in what you could do professionally because there were laws, or quotas, so that you couldn' ; t just apply to any university or go to any school. In some ways, and my -- my reaction at that time was, I think it' ; s harder today, because you really have to work harder to retain your Jewish identity, because there aren' ; t the restrictions on your movement, on your choice of professions, on your choice of a mate, on your whatever it is, on how you behave. You can do -- do whatever you want. So I -- to get back to the Federation, I think it' ; s a struggle for the Federation as well, in a sense, an institutional struggle, to create and maintain that identity as a central address for the Jewish community, and in a positive way that will help it to not only continue to exist, but to grow and to develop and to evolve as the needs -- as the needs evolve. Did I make sense? (laughter) CRANE: Yes. Looking back, what if anything would you change about your relationship with Judaism, if there' ; s anything? SAXE: Hmm. CRANE: Would you do anything differently? SAXE: I' ; ve said this a lot in recent years, I probably would have become a rabbi. (laughter) CRANE: Wow. SAXE: I -- you know, when I -- when I graduated from college, basically women -- you know, not every woman, obviously, but, you know, the most common thing for women to do, you became a nurse or a teacher, or a social worker. Um, you know, it wasn' ; t as common for women to be working outside the home, it was really sort of at the beginning of that. I remember a classmate of mine, and -- at um, Brandeis who was a really good mathematician, and she was going into some of the early um, developing work with computers about which I knew absolutely nothing. But, uh, you know, or -- or you might go into some sort of an academic, maybe higher level academic role. But the seminaries weren' ; t taking women in those days. It was only after we were here in Lexington, I remember when Sally Prizand -- Prizand, graduated from Hebrew Union College up in Cincinnati, and it was such a big deal. And then, the struggle until the Jewish Theological Seminary, which is Conservative, began to accept women. Um, and I don' ; t know, a few years ago, I thought if things had been different then, I very probably would have applied to a rabbinical school. And because it really combines all these things that I like, working with people, um, within a Jewish context. Um, educating, not -- not so much the structured schoolroom kind of thing, but, you know, in a broader sense. So, I guess that -- that would be a change. CRANE: Well Judy, it has been wonderful chatting with you. And before we end this interview, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to share that I' ; ve not asked you about, that you think would be important for us to know? SAXE: Oh gosh. (laughter) This has been a -- a really, I' ; ve enjoyed this, because it' ; s been very thought provoking. CRANE: Me too. SAXE: Um, no I really -- CRANE: Think about -- SAXE: -- at this point, I guess -- I guess the only other thing I would say is that, um, you know, we came here by chance, and it has turned out to be a very good choice. And uh, we never expected to be here more than three or four years, you know, and here we are 50 -- 53 years later. And um, it' ; s -- it' ; s been a good, good place to grow and mature, and to live. CRANE: Thank you. Those of us that were already here were delighted you came. SAXE: (laughter). [END OF AUDIO FILE] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh471_jk012_saxe_ohm.xml 2015oh471_jk012_saxe_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh471_jk012_saxe_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Judy Saxe, December 1, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Judy Saxe discusses her family history. She discusses her and her family's relationship to Judaism. Both her father and her grandfather were rabbis. Judy Saxe examines her family customs of keeping kosher and Shabbat practices.
Judy Saxe discusses the role of Judaism in her life in college at Brandeis University. She participated in the Student Zionist Organization and eventually took a year off school to do a work-study program in Israel. Judy Saxe discusses the series of events that led to her and her family living in Lexington, Kentucky. Saxe discusses how her family observed the high holidays in Lexington, Kentucky. She discusses her children's experiences growing up Jewish in Lexington.
Judy Saxe discusses the formation of the Lexington Havurah and how it has transformed today. Saxe discusses her involvement with Hadassah both locally and nationally. She discusses why there have been so many women in leadership positions at Hadassah from Lexington since 1969 to now. Saxe discusses her involvement in the Jewish Federation.
Judy Saxe discusses her views on Israel and its politics. Judy Saxe discusses the changes she has witnessed in Lexington's Jewish community over time. She discusses how she would change her relationship to Judaism. She expresses her desire to become a rabbi and calls attention to the way Jewish gender roles have changed throughout her entire life.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2015oh471_jk012
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jewish families.
Religion
Jews--Identity.
Worship (Judaism)
Judaism.
Lexington (Ky.)
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Jewish children
Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington
Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
-
https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/4284cbf4e70f264abaa03ffe5adfa93e.jpeg
3da69c3cc9d33b0c96ec4d026a80505e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral Histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Janice Crane
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
George Schwartzman
Interview Keyword
Holidays.
Family histories.
Religion
Jewish families.
Jewish children
College campuses.
OHMS Object Text
5.2 2015oh435_jk011 Interview with George Schwartzman, October 22, 2015 2015oh435_jk011 0:0:0 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) College environment College students--Social conditions College students--Religious life Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.) Governors--Election Politics and government Universities and colleges--Religion. Holidays. Family histories. Religion Jewish families. Jewish children College campuses. George Schwartzman Janice Crane 0 Vimeo video < ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; height=" ; 564" ; mozallowfullscreen src=" ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253325308" ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=" ; 640" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; 0 Family origins and early childhood For official purposes, today is October 22nd, 2015. George Schwartzman discusses how he was born in Buffalo, New York on December 15th, 1945, and talks about his family's arrival in the U.S. He also discusses growing up in a Jewish home and how the holidays he and his family celebrated influenced him. They played a big part in his life and he really enjoyed going to services on the High Holidays. Buffalo (N.Y.) ; Jewish holidays ; Lithuania ; Russia Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 42.886447, -78.878369 17 Buffalo, New York. George's birthplace. 568 Jewish life on the University of Kentucky campus in the 1960s Uh, can you share--you mentioned that you weren't crazy about your fraternity life, um, that you were a ZBT. Can you describe what that was like and share what you liked about it or what you didn’t like about it? Schwartzman speaks about the existence of Jewish life on the University of Kentucky's campus. He talks about his involvement in Hillel as well as Zeta Beta Tau. However, even though he was a member of both, he preferred to attend Hillel events. Schwartzman also talks about living in Haggin Hall his freshmen year. He was president of Hillel at UK sometime between 1963-1967. Dormitories ; Hillel ; Jewish ; Roommates ; State Street ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College environment ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion 38.039712, -84.495076 17 Location of the Hillel House http://kyhillel.org Hillel Website 1206 Jewish Lexington How did your time at UK impact your Jewish identity? Schwartzman deviates from the initial asked question, and talks about how wonderful and beautiful Lexington is. He also speaks of his current home in Indian Wells, California. Schwartzman discusses his children's experiences with Judaism. He mentions how he has to pick and choose where to go for the holidays. He also mentions about how he frequently went to Temple with Fanny Miller. The Millers were close friends of his. Campus ; Hillel ; Jewish ; Social Life ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.) 33.717631, -116.340755 17 George's current home Indian Wells, California. http://www.ozs.org Ohavay Zion Synagogue, one of the two temples in Lexington. 1916 George's children Are your children practicing Jews now? Schwartzman discusses his children, and how both of them married South African Jews. He speaks about the way his children observe all the major holidays but aren't frequent Temple goers. However, his daughter-in-law is sending her children to an Orthodox Chabad school. One of Schwartzman's children recently moved to Scottsdale, Arizona. He often has to pick and choose which child's holiday celebrations to attend. Kosher ; South Africans ; Synagogue Families. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. 33.494170, -111.926052 17 Scottsdale, Arizona. Home of one of Schwartzman's children. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/South_Africa.html History on the Jews of South Africa. 2434 Lexington, Kentucky What else would you like to share that I haven’t asked you about? Schwartzman discusses the many differences between Lexington and California. He emphasizes how special Lexington is because of its small but great atmosphere. He also speaks of the architecture and beauty of the buildings there. Architecture ; California ; Kentucky Lexington (Ky.) 38.040584, -84.503716 17 Lexington, Kentucky http://www.visitlex.com Lexington Visitor's Website 2557 California governor election of 2003 But it’s big. It’s immense. You can get lost. I’ll give you an example, I’ll tell you an interesting story. Schwartzman ran for California Governor in the recall election of 2003. He ran against Arnold Schwarzenegger and received 12,382 votes when Schwarzenegger received almost 4 million. He talks about how only 135 people were qualified to run. Gary Coleman barely beat him for an 8th place finish in the race. 2003 ; Arnold Schwarzenegger ; California ; Gary Coleman ; Votes Governors--Election ; Politics and government 17 http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/09/us/california-recall-also-rans-just-being-game-was-enough-for-some-who-came-away.html New York Times article on the infamous California recall election of 2003. 2799 " ; Homeland" ; television show This is more just for the, uh, sake of the interview because I find it sort of interesting. I know that you have a special relationship with a, um--one of the stars of “Homeland.” So if you could just share a little teeny bit of that. Schwartzman talks about how he met Marsha Patinkin on J-Date. They hit it off pretty well and were married for a little over three years until she passed away. Her brother was Mandy Patinkin. " ; Homeland" ; ; J-Date ; Mandy Patinkin ; Marsha Patinkin Homeland (Television program : 2011- ) ; Jewish families. ; Television programs. 41.878114, -87.629798 17 Birthplace of Many Patinkin. Chicago, Illinois http://www.mandypatinkin.org Mandy Patinkin's Personal Website 2909 Advice for Jewish students at UK Um, is there anything that you would share or recommend, um, for a Jewish student coming to UK based on your experiences? Schwartzman emphasizes that Kentucky is a state with not that large of a Jewish population. He applauds President Capilouto for all the hard work he has done to make a Jewish presence known on UK's campus. He also stresses how the construction on UK's campus is leading the future of schools across the country. It is a great way to recruit new students to the university. He continues to say that Jewish life is significantly building on campus and is moving in a positive direction. Eli Capilouto ; Rosh Hashanah College administrators ; College buildings. ; College campuses. ; College environment ; College presidents ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Universities and colleges--Administration. ; Universities and colleges--Religion. 38.036421, -84.502063 17 Home of President Eli Capilouto http://www.uky.edu/UKHome/ University of Kentucky's Website Oral History George Schwartzman discusses his birth in Buffalo, New York, and talks about his family's arrival in the U.S. He also discusses growing up in a Jewish home and how the holidays he and his family celebrated influenced him. Schwartzman speaks about the existence of Jewish life on the University of Kentucky's campus. He talks about his involvement in Hillel as well as Zeta Beta Tau. He was president of Hillel at UK sometime between 1963-1967. He discusses the current climate at UK for Jewish students. Schwartzman discusses his children, and how both of them married South African Jews. He speaks about the way his children observe all the major holidays but aren't frequent Temple goers. However, his daughter-in-law is sending her children to an Orthodox Chabad school. Schwartzman ran for California Governor in the recall election of 2003. He ran against Arnold Schwarzenegger and received 12,382 votes when Schwarzenegger received almost 4 million. He talks about how only 135 people were qualified to run. Gary Coleman barely beat him for an 8th place finish in the race. No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh435_jk011_schwatrzman_ohm.xml 2015oh435_jk011_schwatrzman_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z
OHMS Object
https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2015oh435_jk011_schwatrzman_ohm.xml
Interview Rights
All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries.
Interview Usage
Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
George Schwartzman, October 22, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
George Schwartzman discusses his birth in Buffalo, New York, and talks about his family's arrival in the U.S. He also discusses growing up in a Jewish home and how the holidays he and his family celebrated influenced him. Schwartzman speaks about the existence of Jewish life on the University of Kentucky's campus. He talks about his involvement in Hillel as well as Zeta Beta Tau. He was president of Hillel at UK sometime between 1963-1967. He discusses the current climate at UK for Jewish students.
Schwartzman discusses his children, and how both of them married South African Jews. He speaks about the way his children observe all the major holidays but aren't frequent Temple goers. However, his daughter-in-law is sending her children to an Orthodox Chabad school.
Schwartzman ran for California Governor in the recall election of 2003. He ran against Arnold Schwarzenegger and received 12,382 votes when Schwarzenegger received almost 4 million. He talks about how only 135 people were qualified to run. Gary Coleman barely beat him for an 8th place finish in the race.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2015oh435_jk011
Subject
The topic of the resource
College environment
College students--Social conditions
College students--Religious life
Jews--Identity.
Jews--Kentucky--Lexington.
Lexington (Ky.)
Governors--Election
Politics and government
Universities and colleges--Religion.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video