3 10 50 https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/536085c178ced69d701f24babac922c3.jpeg e6a31f3a378bbcc88f49b36a3525e1e5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Carol Ely Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Madeline Abramson Interview Keyword African Americans--Social conditions. Race relations--United States Marriage Genealogy Higher education Washington (D.C.) OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh399_jk034 Interview with Madeline Abramson, September 14, 2016 2016oh399_jk034 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Childhood Families. Education Catholicism Catholics--Kentucky Jews--Identity. Religion Holidays--Kentucky Judaism Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Louisville (Ky.) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Louisville (Ky.)--Politics and government Politicians--Kentucky Volunteers Conversion--Judaism. Jewish converts. African Americans--Social conditions. Race relations--United States Marriage Genealogy Higher education Washington (D.C.) Madeline Abramson Carol Ely 1:|19(8)|37(6)|60(7)|76(7)|90(11)|106(5)|118(11)|132(13)|149(1)|162(7)|174(16)|187(10)|201(11)|218(8)|237(7)|249(9)|264(6)|280(3)|292(10)|305(3)|320(4)|333(11)|350(8)|365(4)|379(2)|390(14)|402(7)|420(3)|431(4)|447(10)|464(9)|477(1)|490(11)|502(7)|517(3)|529(6)|542(12)|556(1)|567(9)|583(1)|596(1)|608(13)|625(9)|637(2)|649(15)|663(9)|677(9)|689(1)|706(3)|720(1)|736(6)|750(12)|770(14)|781(4) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253331380&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 General family background We're rolling. Abramson provides background information regarding her family. She gives the names of her parents and sisters. She describes growing up in the middle class neighborhood of Iroquois Park in Louisville, Kentucky. Ellen Malley ; Family history ; Iroquois Park ; Jack Luke Malley ; Judy Malley ; Mary Winifred Barry Childhood ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.160822, -85.780306 17 Iroquois Park, the neighborhood that Madeline Abramson grew up in. 90 Catholic community and upbringing So Iroquois Park area was fairly suburban then? Abramson further explains the location of Iroquois Park and the neighborhood's primarily Catholic population. Her family attended mass at St. John Vianney and was fairly active in the church. She shares an anecdote about volunteering at the church as a child. Abramson attended private, Catholic schools throughout her childhood. She celebrated religious holidays with her mother's extended family ; these celebrations were often held at her grandmother's home in Old Louisville. 7th and St. Catherine ; Catholic schools ; Christian holidays ; Downtown Louisville (Ky.) ; Ellen Malley ; Iroquois Park ; Old Louisville ; Private education ; St. John Vianney ; Volunteer work Catholicism ; Catholics--Kentucky ; Childhood ; Education ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.177456, -85.763542 17 St. John Vianney, the parish church Abramson attended during her youth. 239 First introduction to Judaism / her parents’ roles Can you remember growing up, whether you had any contact with Jewish people, or Jewish religion, or what, what you knew and thought about it? Abramson describes how she did not have much exposure to other religions, including Judaism, during her childhood. However, she was first introduced to Judaism by meeting a Jewish family, the Friedmans, who ran a variety store near her home. Abramson's father was a computer programmer who worked at American Air Filter. He inspired her community service through often sharing a quote from Eldridge Cleaver. Her mother was a stay-at-home mom who provided her with the love of learning. She examines both of her parents' roles in their home. 1950s ; 1960s ; American Air Filter ; Catholic childhood ; Eldridge Cleaver ; Francie Friedman ; Gender roles ; Henry Friedman ; Jewish stores Childhood ; Families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.264270, -85.574049 17 American Air Filter, the company Abramson's father worked at. http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/twenty/tkeyinfo/tmainstr.htm This article describes the gender roles and family life of Catholics in the 1950s and 1960s. 561 Growing up in 1960s Louisville So, growing up in the 1960s, there was a lot of racial change in Louisville, racial tension, racial harmony in different places. Were you aware of that growing up? Was your family involved in any way? Abramson describes what it was like growing up in the 1950s-1960s. Although this was an era of political and racial tension, her parents shielded her from events happening at that time. She claims they did this in order to protect her from the ethical issues and political dangers. However, they were very accepting and tolerant. Abramson describes her friendship with an African American girl and how she'd visit her home in the West End of Louisville. Her parents did not have particular expectations for their children, other than being kind people. Parental advice ; Parenting ; Political tensions ; Race ; Racial tensions ; Segregation ; West Louisville (Ky.) African Americans--Social conditions. ; Childhood ; Families. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Race discrimination ; Race relations--United States ; Racism 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.kywcrh.org/archives/2498 This link describes the Race Riot that occurred in West Louisville in 1968. 671 Education and career And, uh, you decided to go to college, and where did you go and? Abramson describes her college education, which spanned from the 1980s to 2000s. She obtained a real estate license from Jefferson Community College before returning to college at the University of Louisville where she obtained a license as a paralegal. She took a break from college until she graduated from Bellarmine in 2013 with a Bachelor of Arts degree. She describes how she distanced herself from the Catholic church as a young adult due to challenges she had with the faith. She discusses her joy upon discovering Judaism. Bachelor of Arts ; Bellarmine University ; Jefferson Community College ; Judaism ; Paralegal ; Real estate ; Religious challenges ; Religious life ; University of Louisville Catholicism ; Catholics--Kentucky ; Education ; Higher education ; Religion 38.218989, -85.709143 17 Bellarmine University, where Madeline Abramson obtained her Bachelor's of Arts in 2013. http://www.lawyeredu.org/paralegal.html This website provides information on the education and responsibilities of a paralegal. Madeline Abramson worked as a paralegal up until the birth of her son. 888 Discovering and converting to Judaism And did you discover Judaism in a sense by discovering your husband? Abramson describes how she was introduced to Judaism through meeting her now husband, Jerry Abramson. She explains the influence her husband's family had on her faith and the learning process she underwent. She attended classes and read many books, including one written by Rabbi Kling. She converted prior to her marriage and found their commonality of religion important. Abramson elaborates on how her family supported her conversion and how the Jewish community welcomed her. Converting to Judaism ; Embracing Judaism ; Interfaith ; Intermarriage ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish communities ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish religion ; Louisville Jewish community ; Rabbi Kling ; Rabbi Stanley Miles Conversion--Judaism. ; Jewish converts. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225483, -85.650461 17 Louisville Jewish Community Center, where Abramson took many classes about the Jewish faith. https://jewishlouisville.org/39-years-rabbi-miles-retires-temple-shalom/ This website provides information on the career of Rabbi Stanley Miles, who has since retired. He is the brother in-law of Abramson and even taught her classes at the Jewish Community Center upon converting. 1056 Jewish and Catholic family values Do you feel a continuity between the values you grew up with and the values that you see now as Jewish values? Abramson describes her Jewish adult life in comparison to her Catholic childhood and examines similarities in the two faiths. She describes how both religions had a desire to serve underserved communities. She explains the transition of celebrating Christian holidays to Jewish holidays. Abramson typically hosted celebrations for secular holidays so that her own family, as well as her husband's, would feel welcomed. Her sister-in-law, Shelia Miles, usually hosted the Jewish celebrations. Catholic tradition ; Christian holidays ; Faith similarities ; Jewish family ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish tradition ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Rosh Hashanah ; Secular holidays ; Shelia Miles ; Sisters of Charity of Nazareth ; Tikkun-olam Catholicism ; Catholics--Kentucky ; Holidays--Kentucky ; Jewish converts. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 1215 Meeting her husband So, just to backtrack a little bit, so how did you meet Jerry? Abramson describes meeting her husband, Jerry Abramson, through work. He was working as an attorney at Greenebaum, Doll, &amp ; amp McDonald and she was a paralegal at Todd and Haber. They dated off and on for about seven years, and have since been married for twenty-seven years. She explains how Jerry encouraged her to learn more about Judaism and how she become involved in the Melton Program. She explains the positions her family has held in Jewish congregations. Brown, Todd, and Haber ; Greenebaum Doll, and McDonald ; Intermarriage ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish marriage ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Knesses Israel ; Louisville Association of Paralegals ; Melton Program ; Synagogues ; Temple Shalom (Louisville, synagogue) ; Women of Reform Judaism ; Women of Temple Shalom Jewish converts. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Marriage ; Religion 38.223425, -85.609271 17 Temple Shalom, one of the congregations the Abramson family attends. This is also the congregation of which Abramson's brother in-law, Stanley Miles, was once a rabbi. https://www.meltonschool.org This is the website that describes information about the Melton Program. This programs provide education about the Jewish faith and heritage. 1370 Political and community involvement And, when, uh, you got together with Jerry, you were aware he had political ambitions? Was that something you discussed? Abramson discusses her husband's political career, beginning with mayor when they got married. She describes the different positions he has held. She reflects on her time as the mayor's wife and the things she would do differently if she could go back in time. She explains that her volunteer service reflects the community and organizations with which she was involved: the American Red Cross, Maryhurst, Clothe a Child, and National Council of Jewish Women. She elaborates on what it was like to be the first family of a community where being Jewish was the minority. Abramson describes the difficulties of scheduling community events around Jewish holidays, and what it was like to answer many questions about their faith. American Red Cross ; Board of Alderman ; City councilperson, General Counsel ; Clothe a Child ; Community ; Community events ; Community involvement ; Louisville politics ; Maryhurst ; Mayors ; Nonprofit organizations ; Passover (also Peach) ; Political family ; Politics ; Public service ; Rosh Hashanah ; Thunder Over Louisville ; Volunteer work Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.)--Politics and government ; Politicians--Kentucky ; Politics and government ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) https://jewishlouisville.org/madeline-abramson-receives-the-blanche-b-ottenheimer-award/ This website describes an award that Madeline Abramson was honored with in 2013 based on her community service. 1748 Family life in politics And, your son was born during this time? Ambramson introduces her son, Sidney Abramson, and his birth in 1991. She explains where he was bar mitzvahed and attended Sunday school. She describes how her family split their religious time between Knesses Israel and Temple Shalom. She describes her husband's career as it evolved and its effects on their family, including commuting as the Lieutenant Governor. Abramson elaborates on the opportunities she was given to represent the state, although she had no formal role as the Lieutenant Governor's wife. Bar mitzvahs ; Commuting ; Frankfort (Ky.) ; Governor Beshear ; Knesses Israel ; Lieutenant governors ; Mayors ; Merged city ; Political family ; Religious life ; Sidney Abramson ; Temple Shalom (Louisville, synagogue) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.)--Politics and government ; Politicians--Kentucky ; Politics and government ; Religion 38.291901, -85.629555 17 Knesses Israel, the Jewish temple that the Abramson family raised their son in. https://ballotpedia.org/Jerry_Abramson This website provides information on Jerry Abramson's career, specifically his time as Lieutenant Governor. 2163 Volunteer and community interests I noticed a couple times you mentioned volunteer work on behalf of women. Is that something that is dear to your heart? Abramson describes her past and current volunteer work with women's organizations and art organizations including the National Center of Jewish Women, the Women for Women Luncheon, Maryhurst, Stage One Children Theater Board, and Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts. She is passionate about creating greater opportunities for women, including pay equity. Although she lacked artistic ability, Abramson was always interested in the arts. She recalls a childhood memory of visiting the Speed Museum. She describes the opportunities these art organizations provide across the state. Abramson serves as the chair of the board of the Kentucky Center and explains the impact these organizations had on herself and others. Advocate for the Arts ; Community ; Community involvement ; Community service ; Feminism ; Governor's School for the Arts Program ; Kentucky Center ; Kentucky Center Board ; Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts ; Maryhurst ; National Council of Jewish Women ; Pay equity ; Pay Equity Day ; Speed Museum ; Stage One Children Board ; The Women's Effort ; Volunteer work ; Women for Women Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Volunteers 38.217655, -85.760897 17 Speed Art Museum located in Louisville, Kentucky. Abramson recalls a memory of often visiting the museum as a young adult with her aunt. https://www.kentuckycenter.org This is the homepage of the Kentucky Center for the Arts. This website provides information on the services and opportunities they provide. 2432 Commuting to Washington, D.C. And, uh, in recent years, your husband's been commuting to Washington D.C. regularly on President Obama's staff for, uh, municipal governance affairs, I believe? Abramson explains her husband's position and responsibilities in D.C. under the Obama Administration. He served as a liaison to the White House. She describes the difficulties that were associated with her husband commuting between Kentucky and Washington D.C. She elaborates on the unique perspective her husband brought to his position based upon his past experiences. She describes how she didn't have an official role in this position, but was able to enjoy social celebrations at the White House. She elaborates on the emphasis the Obama Administration employed to form positive relationships with the Jewish community. Commuting ; Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Intergovernmental Affairs ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish holidays ; Political involvement ; President Barack Obama ; White House Hanukkah party Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Politicians--Kentucky ; Politicians--United States ; Politics and government ; Religion ; Washington (D.C.) 38.904722, -77.016389 17 Washington (D.C.) http://forward.com/news/national/356348/president-obamas-last-hanukkah-party-a-bittersweet-moment-for-liberals-with/ This link provides information and photos of the 2016 White House Hanukkah party. It provides a description of the Obama administration, the administration Jerry Abramson had worked for. 2633 Evolution and influences of Judaism in Louisville Who d--can you think, looking back on all of this, of people that you really consider to be your mentors, people who have influenced you, people that you've, you've leaned on for advice and counsel? Abramson mentions those who have influenced and advised her, including Jury Lambert, the president of Maryhurst, and individuals on the board of Jewish Hospital and St. Mary's Foundation. She describes what she has learned through these experiences. She elaborates on the change she has seen in the Jewish community between the 1980s and 2000s. She explains that it has often been difficult to maintain momentum in some Jewish organizations, such as BYOB. She mentions the leadership roles she currently holds: National Council of Jewish Women Louisville Sector, Advisory Council for Jewish Family and Career Services, and the Women of Temple Shalom. Jewish change ; Jewish Family and Career Services ; Jewish Hospital ; Jewish Hospital Association Board of Directors ; Judy Lambeth ; Maryhurst ; Mentoring ; National Center of Jewish Women ; National Council of Jewish Women Louisville sector ; St. Mary ; Volunteering ; Women of Temple Shalom Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Volunteers 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) https://jfcslouisville.org This link provides information on services offered by the Jewish Family and Career Center of Louisville. Abramson described how she benefited from many of these services. 2924 Past experiences and hopes for the future So, uh, soon, uh, Jerry plans to move back to Louisville. How do you see the future opening up for you? In the close of the interview, Abramson explains that her husband will be moving back to Louisville in November of 2017. She describes that she wants to study more, whether it is through Melton classes, or the Veritas group at Bellarmine. She hopes to attend more lectures too. She briefly describes her work with Jewish Hospital and St. Mary's Foundation and how the two organizations, both of different religious origin, worked seamlessly together. She mentions that the Caritas organization eventually became the St. Mary's Foundation. She describes her son's experiences at Male High School and his graduation from Bellarmine University. She concludes the interview by mentioning that her son is engaged. Bellarmine University ; Caritas organization ; Goldstein/Leibson lecture series ; Jewish Hospital &amp ; amp St. Mary's Foundation ; Lillian Seligman alav hashalom's family-endowed lecture series ; Melton series ; Retirement Families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Volunteers 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.kentuckyonehealth.org/jewish-hospital-st-mary-foundation-about This website provides information about Jewish Hospital &amp ; amp St. Mary's Foundation, which Abramson was very involved in. interview Madeline Abramson was raised as a Catholic in Louisville, Kentucky. In this interview, she explains her family’s involvement in the Catholic church and her dissatisfied feelings with religion before discovering Judaism. Abramson offers a unique perspective and elaborates on the similarities between Catholicism and Judaism. Abramson describes her education and career as a young adult prior to meeting her now husband, Jerry Abramson. Abramson discovered Judaism through meeting him in the early 1980s before marrying in 1989. She examines the role her husband played in her journey converting, and how the Louisville Jewish community welcomed her. Jerry Abramson’s political career began as Mayor of Old Louisville from 1986 to 1999 and mayor of Louisville Metro from 2003-2011. Abramson introduces her husband’s career and the effects it had on her, including the influence it had on her own service in the community. Madeline Abramson was passionate about her civic duties and became particularly involved in the women’s effort, arts and Jewish community. She became the chair of both the Kentucky Commission on Woman and the Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts. She is also involved with the National Council of Jewish Women. Abramson elaborates on their time as first family of Louisville. Although they were a religious minority, they embraced their faith in the public realm. Her husband eventually accepted the position of Lieutenant Governor under Governor Steve Beshear and later the position of Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Intergovernmental Affairs under President Obama. Jerry commuted between Louisville and both Frankfort and Washington D.C. to avoid moving his family. She describes the importance of maintaining a delicate balance between politics and family and discusses her role in both positions as a supporting wife, community leader, and mother. In this oral history, Madeline Abramson reflects on her past and elaborates on the future by discussing the influence Judaism has had on herself. ELY: It&#039 ; s September 14th, 2016. I&#039 ; m Carol Ely, and I&#039 ; m here with Madeline Abramson, and we are doing an interview for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, sponsored by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. So, thank you, Madeline, for agreeing to come in and answer questions for us. ABRAMSON: Thank you, I&#039 ; m delighted to be here. ELY: So, we&#039 ; re going to go somewhat chronologically, but skip back and forth between your personal life, and your community pursuits, so I&#039 ; m just going to start with the absolute basics. When and where were you born? ABRAMSON: I was born, um, on October 20th, 1955, uh, here in Louisville. ELY: And your parents, uh, are they native Louisvillians too? ABRAMSON: Yes, my parents, uh--my mother&#039 ; s name was Mary Winifred Barry, my father&#039 ; s name was, uh, Jack Luke Malley--they were fourth-generation Louisvillians. ELY: So they lived in the city itself, and not in the, um, surrounding counties? ABRAMSON: That&#039 ; s correct. I grew up out in the Iroquois Park neighborhood of Louisville. ELY: And do you have brothers and sisters? ABRAMSON: I have two older sisters. My eldest sister, um, Judy, passed away in 1987, alav hashalom. My other sister, Ellen, is married and lives in Brownsville, Kentucky, about an hour and a half from Louisville. ELY: So, Iroquois Park area was fairly suburban then? ABRAMSON: Well, it was a, um, middle-class neighborhood just south of downtown Louisville. ELY: And did you go to the public schools then? ABRAMSON: No, at that time I went to a small Catholic school in our--within our neighborhood, and also attended a small girls&#039 ; Catholic high school, which, my mother had attended the same one. ELY: And did you go to your parish church in the community? ABRAMSON: Yes. ELY: And what was the name of the church? ABRAMSON: That was St. John Vianney. ELY: And, was your family very active in the church? ABRAMSON: We were active, uh, I think, to a certain extent, in the life of the church. One of my earliest memories of volunteering--my sister Ellen and I would walk up on Saturday mornings to put the church bulletin--to staple the church bulletin together, but I guess you couldn&#039 ; t really call it volunteer work, because when we were finished, we got to get a Coke out of the Coke machine, and that was a big deal to us at the time. ELY: So, your family celebrated all the holidays--Christmas, Easter--very involved with the church, or a lot of home celebrations? ABRAMSON: Really more of a family celebration. My mother was one of nine children, all of whom but one raised their families in Louisville, so, we had a big extended family, and gathered for holidays often at my grandmother&#039 ; s home at the corner of Seventh and Saint Catherine, a big old house in Old Louisville, and had really festive gatherings, then always had a smaller, little more subdued gathering with my, um, Dad&#039 ; s family, just because it was a smaller group. ELY: And it was a pretty Catholic neighborhood back then? ABRAMSON: Yes, uh, the majority of the people in the neighborhood were Catholic families. ELY: So, you had a somewhat fairly religious upbringing, it was part of your--describe more--(laughs)--about the role of religion in your life then. ABRAMSON: Well, I think, we attended mass regularly. We were involved in the church activities--uh, I think what was fairly typical, for a family at that time. ELY: Can you remember growing up, whether you had any contact with Jewish people, or Jewish religion, or what you knew and thought about it? ABRAMSON: Well, I didn&#039 ; t have, um, a great deal of knowledge about the religion in particular, but I did--there was a lovely family that operated the variety store a couple of blocks from my home, um, Helen--excuse me--Helen Friedman&#039 ; s--I have to stop, that&#039 ; s not the right--would you ask me that again, please? (laughs) ELY: Can you remember back then what you knew and thought about Jews and Judaism growing up? ABRAMSON: I didn&#039 ; t know a great deal about, uh, the Jewish faith at the time, but I did know a wonderful family who operated the variety store a couple of blocks from our home, Henry and Francie Friedman, and got to know them over the years. My mother never drove a car, so we walked, and did all of our shopping and errand-running pretty much in the neighborhood for the most part. What was interesting about the upbringing is, um, you don&#039 ; t learn a great deal, um, in the Catholic tradition--at that time you didn&#039 ; t really learn a great deal about the Old Testament, or in many cases, the New Testament. It was more of ,um, um, the catechism, an interpretation for you, as opposed to really learning and studying on your own. ELY: So, you didn&#039 ; t really have any kind of education that taught you about different religions, about Judaism, that Jews were just--a different sort of person who lived in your neighborhood? ABRAMSON: That&#039 ; s right. When you think--today, I think it&#039 ; s much different, but at that time, in the &#039 ; 50s and &#039 ; 60s, at least in our, uh, world, there was not a great deal of study of comparative religions like we have today, I think. ELY: And, your father, what kind of work did he do? Talk about him a little bit. What was he like? ABRAMSON: My father was just a very outgoing, gregarious man. He was a wonderful father, and I have so much admiration for him, because he didn&#039 ; t complete college, but he went to work as a computer programmer for a company called American Air Filter, and retired from there in his late &#039 ; 60s, and when I think now the way technology and computers change every couple of years, or less than that, he basically had to reinvent himself professionally every couple of years, and at the time, I didn&#039 ; t necessarily appreciate and understand that, but now, knowing how difficult change can be--you know, any time I get an upgrade to my iPhone, it&#039 ; s--you know, cause for panic, and yet he went from COBOL to FORTRAN, which were all computer languages that he had to learn, um, on a regular basis, so he was really a very bright, bright man. ELY: And was he involved in the community, any organizations or positions, or-- ABRAMSON: He was not a big volunteer, uh, in the community. He did some things with our school, but I credit him for the reason that I like to volunteer, because when we were growing up, if my sister and I would have a complaint, which we generally would, about things--how things were handled in the world, or in school, he would listen for a bit, and then he would quote Eldridge Cleaver. He&#039 ; d say, &quot ; If you&#039 ; re not part of the solution, you&#039 ; re part of the problem.&quot ; And, of course, as a typical kid, I would roll my eyes, but, you know, it sunk in, and he was right, because you can&#039 ; t just sit on the sidelines. If you see something that needs to be addressed, then you need to figure out your part in that, and, uh, he really taught me that, not so much by example, I think, but just by sharing his wisdom. ELY: That&#039 ; s interesting that that&#039 ; s who he chose to quote. ABRAMSON: It is interesting, because that would be a pretty unlikely source, I think, for him to quote--uh, be quoting Eldridge Cleaver in the &#039 ; 60s. But, he was a--he was a special man. ELY: Sounds like it. And, um, your mother, what was she, she, up to while your Dad was mastering computer languages? ABRAMSON: Well, my mother was the consummate stay-at-home Mom, and she, as I mentioned, she didn&#039 ; t drive a car, so we went places--walked or took the bus, and she did a great deal to help care for her mother, and I remember as a child going in on the bus with her often, or later, when I could drive, just to help, uh, my grandmother around the house. But, she was a prolific reader, and letter writer. Uh, her family had been in the newspaper business, so she had a real love of learning, and language, and always made sure that our home was open and welcome to all of the neighborhood kids and--and cousins, so, she made a wonderful life for us. ELY: So, growing up in the 1960s, there was a lot of racial change in Louisville, racial tension, racial harmony in different places. Were you aware of that, growing up? Was your family involved in any way? ABRAMSON: No, I really was not aware of that, and, looking back on it now, it seems almost inconceivable that I was not aware of it, but I guess, uh, we lived in a pretty insular neighborhood, and with uh, our life really revolving around, uh, church and school, and we were just not as aware what was going on in the community. I&#039 ; m sure my parents were, and I guess they felt as though they were trying to shield us from some of the unrest going on--so I really was not aware of it. ELY: And, did, uh, you feel that your parents had particular expectations for you and your sister of what your lives would be like, how you would develop as people? ABRAMSON: I think that they wanted us to be, obviously, be good people, be accepting people, tolerant people. I know when I was in high school, we had two African-American young women in my small class of 73 students, and one became one of my dearest friends, and she stayed in my house, and I visited her home in the, the, West End, and that was something that--it was not seen as anything singular, just, Maria was my friend and I was her friend, so I think that, um, you know, my parents just expected us to be, um--treat people the way we would want to be treated. ELY: And, uh, you decided to go to college, and where did you go, and-- ABRAMSON: Well, my college career, if you will, took a rather checkered path, let&#039 ; s say. I--I started out at Jefferson Community College at the time, and earned an associate degree in real estate, and I got my real estate license, and sold a little real estate to try to finance my continuing college career, but I decided I really didn&#039 ; t--I liked real estate, but I was not a good salesperson, so, uh, went back to University of Louisville, and earned an associate degree as a paralegal, and worked as a paralegal. And at the time, I was going to school at night, and working on a bachelor of Liberal Studies. And sometime in the late seventies, I decided to take a semester off, which turned into about a thirty-year hiatus, so I actually been--began to return to school sporadically when my son was little, and taking classes at Bellarmine University, and finally, knuckled down and got serious about finishing, and earned my bachelor of arts degree from Bellarmine at the end of 2013. ELY: Inspiring story, for all those people--(laughs)--who are struggling to get through it. ABRAMSON: Well, I love to tell people, young people in particular--I use myself as sort of a cautionary tale, because you don&#039 ; t want to be my age and be the only one in your statistics class that has to put on cheater glasses to see the buttons on her graphing calculator, so it&#039 ; s not a path I would recommend to people, but, um, it was important to me to earn that. ELY: So, during this, uh, interim period in your college career, did you work as a paralegal? ABRAMSON: Yes, I worked as a paralegal, uh, in the real estate area for a large law firm, and then, um, actually joined a contract paralegal service with, uh, two or three other women, and we did contract work, uh, for a few years, and then I returned to working full-time for an attorney, at the time for a savings and loan--so I continued working as a paralegal up until, uh, shortly after my, uh, my son arrived. ELY: And did you continue to be affiliated with the Catholic Church you&#039 ; d grown up in? ABRAMSON: No, I did not. I really, by the time I got to college, I was really somewhat disaffected--not so much from the individuals as part of the Church--I had great respect for so many priests, and nuns, and the good work that they were doing in the community, but I had all my life just had some--I guess some challenges with some of the doctrine of, uh, the Church--the concept of original sin, um, other things, and so I was really not practicing anything for many, many years. And that was what was such a joy when I did discover Judaism. I thought, Well, this is what, uh, I was looking for, really, about your own relationship with God, and your study of the Torah to learn. Um, it was just a real--it was a great eye-opener for me. ELY: And did you discover Judaism in a sense by discovering your husband? ABRAMSON: Oh, yes that--that&#039 ; s-- ELY: -----------(??) Jerry Abramson -----------(??) ABRAMSON: --yes-- ELY: --get that out there. ABRAMSON: When I met my husband--now-husband--Jerry Abramson, and began to spend, obviously, more time with his, with his family, um, then it really piqued my interest in learning more, and then when we started talking about marriage, and uh, spending our lives together, I knew this was something that was important to both of us, that we can find some commonality, uh, in our faith, and so that&#039 ; s--I began to study, and learn, and then converted prior to our marriage. ELY: Who did you study with? How did you go about it? ABRAMSON: Well, I studied--took classes in, throughout the local Jewish community. Some were taught by my brother-in-law, Rabbi Stanley Miles, other ones that I attended at various, um, programs through the various temples and synagogues, and then certainly read a great many books--Rabbi Kling&#039 ; s book on Embracing Judaism--did a great deal of reading on my own, but also, certainly, the classes were a very valuable part of my learning experience. ELY: How did your family react to your decision to become Jewish? ABRAMSON: My family was very supportive. Uh, first of all, they loved Jerry, and they obviously--they loved me, and they knew that for many years, that I didn&#039 ; t really have a faith home, and they were happy, not only that, uh, that I had Jerry, but that I had a faith that uh, that I embraced. ELY: Did you feel accepted by the Jewish community? ABRAMSON: I not only felt accepted by the Jewish community, I&#039 ; ve always felt embraced by the Jewish community from day one, and, and still do, that I feel--I feel that I am a part of this Jewish community. ELY: Many people say that they feel like they always were Jewish, they just recognized it late. ABRAMSON: (laughs) That&#039 ; s a good way to put it, because I knew I was looking for something for a very long time, and I just didn&#039 ; t know what was out there. Part of me wishes I had been more curious during those years that I was really disaffected--that I had done a better job of, of searching, but it came to me at the right time. ELY: Do you feel a continuity between the values you grew up with and the values that you see now as Jewish values? ABRAMSON: Very much so. I think there are so many similarities in the core of our two faith traditions, and when you look at the, um, our tikkun olam, our mission to repair the world, that&#039 ; s something that was really a part of Catholicism, uh, to a certain extent, in service, uh, and you look at groups like the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth, who&#039 ; ve had a tradition of, again, of serving the underserved in our community and our world, um, ever since those--the congregation was started. So, there--we have a lot in common. ELY: And, uh, did you enjoy, uh--so, embracing Judaism involves embracing a whole new set of holidays, and giving up some, uh, favorites. Was that a problem, or was that exciting? ABRAMSON: It was not a problem, because you get to a point in life when you realize what&#039 ; s really important in your life. Sure, it was fun when I was growing up to put up the Christmas tree, and decorate, but it really didn&#039 ; t have anything to do with my religious fervor, it was just--it was fun to do. Um, so, uh, but embracing the new holidays that are very family-centered--Rosh Hashanah, Passover--it brings our families together to celebrate. I mean, that&#039 ; s a--I have new traditions now. ELY: Did your, uh, family of origin come and celebrate the Jewish holidays with you? Did you have everybody over for Passover? ABRAMSON: No, they did not, uh--my family didn&#039 ; t come celebrate the holidays with us. I guess what, uh, my sister-in-law, Sheila Miles, uh, generally gathered our family together for the Jewish holidays. You know, our holiday was Thanksgiving, and we would have both families together. Uh, we would generally do something in the spring. We would have both families together for brunch, and cookouts, but I guess we--we sort of picked the secular holiday of Thanksgiving for our house, knowing that both families would be comfortable there. ELY: So, just to backtrack a little bit, so how did you meet Jerry? ABRAMSON: Well, that&#039 ; s, uh--as we talked about, I was a paralegal working in a law firm at the time called Brown, Todd, and Haber, and he was an attorney with a law firm called Greenebaum Doll &amp ; McDonald, and I happened to be over at the office for a meeting of the Louisville Association of Paralegals, our professional group, and one of the paralegals introduced me to him. So, I can&#039 ; t say--we laugh about this--can&#039 ; t say it was love at first sight, because we dated off and on for seven years--(laughs)--so it took a while, but now we&#039 ; ve been married for over twenty-seven wonderful years. ELY: And, he encouraged you--how did he react to the religious differences between you? What was his take on what should happen, and what could happen? ABRAMSON: Well, he encouraged me to, to learn more about Judaism, and, and see where I felt comfortable, and so he was very supportive of my learning process, and has been all along the way, as I&#039 ; ve continued to participate, and take education--adult education courses, and went through the Milton program, and he&#039 ; s been very encouraging of that. ELY: And it helps to have a rabbi in the family. So, your sister Sheila&#039 ; s married to Rabbi Stanley Miles, so, you, I believe, belong to two congregations? ABRAMSON: That&#039 ; s right. We belong to Knesses Israel, the congregation where my husband and his family--where my husband grew up, and we also belong to Temple Shalom, where my brother-in-law, Rabbi Stanley Miles, is rabbi emeritus--he recently retired, and so I have Stanley, and then of course I have--Sheila is a wealth of knowledge herself. I mean, she kept, she keeps a kosher home, so I learned a lot about kashrut, the laws of kashrut from, from Sheila. She&#039 ; s also going to be the incoming president of the central district of Women of Reform Judaism. She&#039 ; s been, um, chair of Women of Temple Shalom, so she&#039 ; s so actively involved in synagogue life that, uh, she&#039 ; s been a great source of knowledge for me as well. ELY: So you would consider her kind of a role model, mentor in a way? ABRAMSON: Oh, yes. As a sister. (laughs) ELY: And, when you got together with Jerry, you were aware he had political ambitions? Was that something you discussed? ABRAMSON: Yes, at the time, he was--well, when we married, he was already Mayor, but when we were dating, yes, I knew he had political ambitions, and I was proud of him. He had served on the old Board of Aldermans, so he served as a City Councilperson. At that time, he had served as General Counsel to Governor Jon Y. Brown, so he had a taste of public service, and I knew that&#039 ; s what he wanted to do. ELY: So then you stepped into the role of--very public role as the wife of the Mayor, and what did that feel like? ABRAMSON: Well, it was one of those things that I wish--if you knew what you were really going to end up doing in life, we probably would have done things differently. I also said I would have taken a public speaking course. I would have taken elocution lessons. I would have done certain things differently, but we never really know what our life holds for us, so you just embrace it, and it was a wonderful experience to be able to participate in some many great things, uh, in our community over those years. I think the last year Jerry was Mayor, I gave four fifth-grade commencement speeches, so I just had the opportunity to do such special things in and around the community, and see all the good work going on. ELY: What were some of the things--you were very involved in the community. What were some of your, um, projects and efforts that--that, the long list of community boards and uh-- (laughs) ABRAMSON: Well, I always tried to make my volunteer service somewhat reflective of the community in general, because I remember when, uh, right before Jerry and I were married, someone came to me and said, &quot ; Well, what is your issue going to be?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Issue, my issue?&quot ; And they said, well, you know, Barbara Bush, at the time, has literacy, and somebody else has this, and Martha Wilkinson had the GED program. And I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t feel as though it&#039 ; s my place to put my issue to the comm-- out to the community, I want to hear what the community needs.&quot ; So, I was able to be involved with--and I&#039 ; m still involved with organizations like our local American Red Cross, like Maryhurst that serves physically and sexually abused teenage girls. I&#039 ; ve held a number of officer positions with National Council of Jewish Women, so I&#039 ; ve been able to, um, I think, enjoy and embrace a lot of the nonprofit activities in the Jewish community. I served on the Clothe a Child program for a number of years down in the West End, so, again, I tried to make my volunteer activities reflective of all the community&#039 ; s interests. ELY: And, uh, you were a very publicly Jewish family in a community that had maybe eight thousand to ten thousand Jews, and hundreds of thousands of other sorts of people. How did that feel? Did you feel conspicuous? Did you feel you needed to be a sort of a special role model? ABRAMSON: Well, I think, obviously, we were proud of our Judaism, and embraced it. It wasn&#039 ; t anything we ever tried to, you know, hide from people, uh, because that&#039 ; s who we were, that&#039 ; s who we are. I think that we never encountered any challenges to that from, uh, from anyone in the general community. People were very positive, very welcoming. I felt, in some ways, like we were a two-person crew trying to educate the community on the Jewish holidays, because of the, the frustrations that come--that still come with, sometimes, major public events being scheduled on a Jewish holiday. ELY: I remember one year, Thunder Over Louisville had to be moved, because it was Passover. ABRAMSON: That&#039 ; s right, and one year, uh, they didn&#039 ; t move it, and we didn&#039 ; t attend Thunder Over Louisville. And--so I think that some of it is just--you get frustrated, and think, can&#039 ; t you look at a calendar? But then, people don&#039 ; t realize that our holidays start at midnight the night before, and then, having two-day holidays just throws the general community off completely, and it&#039 ; s sometimes difficult to explain why some people celebrate Rosh Hashanah for two days, and other Jewish people celebrate it for one day, so we used to laughingly say, &quot ; If we as Jews can&#039 ; t figure out our holiday schedule sometimes, why should we expect everybody else in the community to?&quot ; ELY: Were there any other issues where you felt you were, uh, in an educational role as far as the community goes about Judaism and Jews? ABRAMSON: Yes, over the years, people have asked a lot of questions, and I remember specifically having a conversation with a person with whom I worked, and explained as best I could, you know, a condensed version of Judaism, and what I believed, and at the end of the conversation, she said, &quot ; OK, now I get it. So, you don&#039 ; t celebrate Christmas but you celebrate Easter.&quot ; And I was--(laughs)--&quot ; No. Let&#039 ; s start again.&quot ; But--so there, so it was more a curiosity, but I was happy--I think that people in the community felt very comfortable asking me questions about Judaism, because many times they were worried, that they didn&#039 ; t want to offend someone, so they--I think they felt that since I had a Christian background, a Christian upbringing, that I would understand why they had questions. And so, I embraced that, and I was always happy, um, to answer people&#039 ; s questions to the best of my ability, to help them better understand our faith tradition. ELY: And, your son was born during this time? ABRAMSON: Um-hm. ELY: Tell us about him. ABRAMSON: Yes, in 1991. And, uh, gosh, it&#039 ; s hard to believe--he will be twenty-five on October 18th of this year, 2016. So, that, as we all know, when a child comes into your family, that changes everything, and it&#039 ; s certainly been a wonderful, um, just a wonderful experience. We are so fortunate as parents to have such a great son, and he, of course, went--uh, grew up attending Sunday school at Temple Shalom, he was bar mitzvah&#039 ; d at, um, Temple Shalom, but always would attend high holiday services with us. Generally, we would go to Knesses Israel the first day, Temple Shalom the second day--divide things up between the, the two shuls. So, uh, and, he&#039 ; s a member now, a full member of Temple Shalom. ELY: It seems to be a Louisville tradition for people to belong to more than one house of worship, which is not something you see other places. So, while, uh, your son was growing up, you were involved with community work primarily, and, uh, raising your family, and uh, there was a period when Jerry was not Mayor, he--term limits took him out of office for a while, I believe he taught and practiced law? ABRAMSON: That&#039 ; s correct. ELY: And, was that a huge change in your life at that time? ABRAMSON: It was a big change. It was a big change for me, it was a big change for our son, because we had really--we were so used to the rather hectic schedule he kept as Mayor, and even though he would be incredibly busy, he would do things like he would come home to have dinner with us, or be with us at dinner time, and then go back out to go to some things if I hadn&#039 ; t been going with him. And so, then, when he had what I would call a more traditional schedule, and started showing up at the door at--(laughs)--4:30, it was a little startling, because my son and I had our routines, and I think for Jerry, it was tough at first, because the office of Mayor had been so consuming in everything we did as a family, most of the time, and he hadn&#039 ; t--he was not one who was playing golf on the weekends. He didn&#039 ; t have a great many hobbies, so it took him a little bit, I think, to find his new routine, and then just about the time I think he was finding a new routine, and then he decided, when we had merged government, and ran for metro Mayor. ELY: So then you were back in pretty much the same position as before. Well, the merged city county was a little bit different. It was a bigger constituency, more people--were there any differences in your role, as far as, uh, what you were expected to do? ABRAMSON: Well, yes, because I was really expected to participate in more activities in the entire community, which was, which was fun, whereas before, I was more confined to the city limits, the old city limits, so I really tried to make sure that I was involved all over the county. And so, when I would be invited by a school out in a suburban area, I would make a special effort to go, because I wanted people to know that we personally had embraced the entire metro community, and wanted to be there for all of them. ELY: And, I know we&#039 ; re following Jerry&#039 ; s career a little bit, but obviously, that had a strong impact on you. So, when he accepted the Lieutenant Governor position, ran for it, and took that, did you continue to live in the same house in Louisville, and he commuted? Is that the way that worked? ABRAMSON: Yes, that&#039 ; s how it works, and I&#039 ; d like to back up just a little bit, because, uh, Steve Beshear, Governor Beshear, actually came to Jerry back in 2006, I think, and suggested that Jerry run for Governor, but at the time, our son was just getting ready to--you know, starting to think about going into high school, and wanted to play football, and wanted to sing in the chorus, and, you know, Jerry knew that running for Governor is a 24/7 job for at least a year, year and a half, going around the state, and, you know, he made--he prioritized our family, and I&#039 ; m certainly grateful for that. And so Governor Beshear then went back to Jerry and said that he decided he was going to run, so he ran and served his first term, and then came to Jerry and asked Jerry to run for him, as Lieutenant Governor, so we stayed in our home in Louisville, and commuted back and forth each day, which was, again, made it harder on Jerry, but he didn&#039 ; t really want to uproot us, uh, to move to Frankfort, at the time. So, again, he made that decision for our family. But, it was a wonderful opportunity for us to get to know people around the state, and travel, but it would have been easier if we&#039 ; d gone to Frankfort. But, as I say, he didn&#039 ; t want to move our son out of high school at the time. ELY: So, were there duties and expectations on you, in that role of the wife of Lieutenant Governor? ABRAMSON: Well, that&#039 ; s interesting, because there really is no description at all for the role of the spouse of the Lieutenant Governor, but fortunately, we had a very close working relationship with the Beshears, so, I was asked to do, um, a number of things, which I enjoyed. I used to always laugh that somebody would call in to the Governor&#039 ; s office--I can remember an example, I think there was an event, something in eastern Kentucky, and asked for the Governor, and the Governor couldn&#039 ; t attend, the First Lady couldn&#039 ; t attend, Jerry was busy on something else, so it&#039 ; s like, well, we want to send somebody, so, uh--to represent the Governor, so they would ask me, and nine times out of ten, I always said yes, because I loved getting out in the state, and meeting new people, and seeing all the good things that were going on. So, I really took advantage of the opportunity that they wanted me to help represent the state. And then, the Governor asked me to be chair of both the Kentucky Commission on Women, as well as the Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts, so those were two additional volunteer roles that I took on at the request of the Governor. ELY: I noticed a couple times you mentioned volunteer work on behalf of women. Is that something that is dear to your heart? ABRAMSON: It is, and I think growing up in a house, uh, with two sisters, and I&#039 ; ve always been, uh, sensitive to--and certainly in my professional life, I&#039 ; ve been, uh, sensitive to the issue of opportunities for women and girls, and increasing those opportunities, and certainly, having been involved with an organization like National Council of Jewish Women for over twenty-five years, you couldn&#039 ; t find stronger advocates for the needs of women and girls. Uh, I&#039 ; ve chaired the Women for Women luncheon, and again, uh, working with Maryhurst and with the Commission on Women. You know, I wanted to do what I can for greater opportunities for women and girls, because we all know about pay equity. We celebrate Pay Equity Day, which is not really a celebration, it&#039 ; s to call attention to, uh, the disparity in pay, and I think that--I still see that women and girls not necessarily--particularly young women--not realizing that, in this world, that all careers are open to them, and that they don&#039 ; t nec--although traditional roles for women, careers are wonderful, I want young women to know that wherever they dream, they can be, they can get there. So, I&#039 ; ve enjoyed being a part of that effort. ELY: And you&#039 ; ve also been an advocate for the arts, as well. In what organizations, what ways? ABRAMSON: Well, I am--I have--how should I say this? I have absolutely no artistic ability of any kind, but I have always enjoyed the arts, and I know my father&#039 ; s older sister, when I was little, took us regularly to the Speed Museum, and so I&#039 ; ve--I loved the arts from afar, but even when I was in my twenties, I served on a young professionals board for the ballet, and for the opera, and then, when my son was little, I joined the Stage One Children&#039 ; s Theater board, because I wanted to support--it was just a great fit, and able to take advantage of those opportunities for him. So, I&#039 ; m--I&#039 ; m just a big believer in what the arts can do for the soul, and the spirit, and even as an economic development engine for the, for the community. So, as I said, I&#039 ; ve just--and I have an appreciation for the arts, but I don&#039 ; t have any lingering artistic ability that I&#039 ; m yearning to do. (laughs) ELY: Did you feel that statewide you could have an impact on people that, uh, in the arts, or in, uh, roles for women and girls, that, uh, you were able to provide something that was needed out there? ABRAMSON: Yes, certainly--with the Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts, we have a couple of ways--since we are the state arts organization, we can reach out in the state. We run the Governor&#039 ; s School for the Arts program, which each year, uh, brings talented juniors from across the state. ELY: And you on the board of the Kentucky Center? ABRAMSON: Yes, I&#039 ; m currently chair of the board of the Kentucky Center, so we operate Governor&#039 ; s School for the Arts, and we also, uh, operate teacher training programs around the, around the state, so we try to get out into the state, and spread the, um, arts opportunities, because many smaller, more rural communities don&#039 ; t necessarily have those opportunities, and they, they have--they don&#039 ; t have in their schools a great deal of budget for arts, or for the band, so many times we feel like it&#039 ; s part of our job--and I think all of our arts organizations--Stage One, the ballet--they try to do that outreach into the state, because we&#039 ; re just so spoiled in Louisville that we can--we could go to an arts activity of some kind every day of the week, and it&#039 ; s not like that in other parts of the state. ELY: And, in recent years, your husband&#039 ; s been commuting to Washington DC regularly on President Obama&#039 ; s staff for uh municipal governance affairs, I believe? ABRAMSON: Well, Jerry&#039 ; s title is Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Intergovernmental Affairs, so what that long title means is, he is the liaison from the White House to governors, mayors, county officials, also to Indian tribes. He&#039 ; s the liaison to native Americans, and he--not only does he help with the President&#039 ; s--get the President&#039 ; s message out to, um, to mayors and governors and county officials, he in turn brings their concerns and suggestions into the White House, and given his experiences, as a Mayor, really, as a county official, when he was--because after merger, he was technically the Mayor and the county judge, and then as a Lieutenant Governor, he really brings a unique perspective to that position, because of his professional history. ELY: Was--is anything expected of you as part of his work in Washington? ABRAMSON: No, other than fun things. I get to go up for the White House Chanukah party, and the White House holiday dinner, but there--did not have any kind of an official, or really supporting role from his, from his work standpoint. ELY: So, has he encouraged the administration to note those Jewish holidays, like Chanukah, and Passover? ABRAMSON: Well, he said that President Obama, certainly this administration, has been, uh--is very well connected to the Jewish community, and I think the President has hosted seders every year in the White House, so before Jerry ever got there, I think there was a strong emphasis on the President&#039 ; s part about having a positive, strong relationship with the Jewish community. ELY: So, you&#039 ; ve stayed here, stayed grounded in Louisville. Has it given you an opportunity, now that your son is on his own and your husband&#039 ; s in Washington, to really spend time on causes that are close to you? ABRAMSON: Well, it&#039 ; s been an opportunity and it&#039 ; s been a challenge. When Jerry first went to DC, we weren&#039 ; t sure at the time if I would join him full-time or not, but what we quickly learned is that he was working such an intense schedule that he would leave our apartment at seven in the morning, and get home anywhere from 7:30 to 10 o&#039 ; clock at night, and traveling quite a bit, that it just--it didn&#039 ; t make a lot of sense for me to be up there full-time, so it&#039 ; s been--I think it&#039 ; s much harder on him from a loneliness factor than it has been for me here surrounded by friends, and family, but it&#039 ; s--it has given me flexibility to spend more time on some of the activities I&#039 ; ve enjoyed. It&#039 ; s also given me the opportunity to spend some more time with friends, to do things with them, so I&#039 ; m--as I say, it&#039 ; s been much easier for me than it has been for him. ELY: Um-hm. Let me see here. Who--can you think, looking back on all this, of people that you really consider to be your mentors, people who have influenced you, people that you&#039 ; ve leaned on for advice and counsel? ABRAMSON: Well, I think that many of the, uh, people I&#039 ; ve worked with in the nonprofit arena have been tremendous mentors to me, whether it&#039 ; s Judy Lambeth, the president of Maryhurst, or whether it&#039 ; s the people I&#039 ; ve served on the board with at the Jewish Hospital &amp ; St. Mary&#039 ; s Foundation. Over the years, I&#039 ; ve learned so much about, um, healthcare, and the challenges that we face in this community, in this nation, with equity and healthcare, and, so I feel as though drawing from my service with Jewish Hospital and St. Mary&#039 ; s is where I&#039 ; ve really learned that--I guess I&#039 ; ve learned what I don&#039 ; t know, I&#039 ; ve learned the questions to ask, so I think that organization has had a tremendous influence on me. ELY: Um-hm. And, have you traveled to Israel? Have you had that opportunity? ABRAMSON: No, I have not had the opportunity, uh, as of yet, and I certainly hope to do that someday. I think my husband&#039 ; s been there three times, I believe. Um, so someday. ELY: Someday. And, uh, things have obviously--things change all the time. You came into the Jewish community, I guess, in the uh, seventies, eighties. Uh, how have you seen things change in the relationship between the Jewish community in Louisville and the wider community, since you have a role in influencing both? ABRAMSON: Well, I came into the Jewish community in the eighties, and I guess, really--I have not seen a great deal of change in, I guess, in my experience, other than--I see the community hasn&#039 ; t evolved, that some institutions that were such bedrocks, I guess when my husband was growing up--some things like BBYO have sort of struggled to, uh, keep the momentum going in some areas, because, I think, of the competition that--the way my husband explains it to me growing up, that the Jewish kids were more involved at the center, and--because maybe they didn&#039 ; t feel as welcome to participate in activities in the general community. From what I&#039 ; ve seen, Jewish people, Jewish kids are welcome in every aspect of this community, which is a good thing, but it&#039 ; s also been a challenge, I think, to keep some of the Jewish institutions, um, going as strongly as we would like, just for that very reason. ELY: And, do you currently sit on the boards of any Jewish organizations--National Council, or-- ABRAMSON: Yes, I serve on the National Council of Jewish Women Louisville section, and that&#039 ; s really--and I&#039 ; m also on the advisory council for Jewish Family and Career Services. But, one thing I&#039 ; ve noticed, and I guess sort of--maybe the benefit of not having that history of growing up in the Jewish community, I hear sometimes people lament, oh, there&#039 ; s not as much going on, or maybe there&#039 ; s--things aren&#039 ; t as well attended, but when I look at the email I&#039 ; ve received from the JCL, you could do something, some Jewish-related activity every night of the week, whether it&#039 ; s something going on at the center, or pizza for the pantry for JFCS, or just, Sunday night, there was a great rebbe soul music festival at Temple Shalom, so I see a very vibrant, uh, community that has something for everyone. ELY: In some ways, the synagogues and temples have gone back to what they were before as places that produce arts and learning, away from a more centralized community. Uh, do you take an active role in, in your synagogue, temple? ABRAMSON: I should probably take a more active role, but-- ELY: --I wasn&#039 ; t blaming you-- ABRAMSON: --no, but I&#039 ; m a--I&#039 ; m a member of the Women of Temple Shalom, and try to participate in those activities generally--if there&#039 ; s a call for volunteers to bake, or something, uh, then I&#039 ; ll do that, but I&#039 ; ve not served in a position as an officer in either Temple Shalom or Knesses--and I admire the people who do, because that&#039 ; s a tough job. ELY: Um-hm. So, uh, soon Jerry plans to move back to Louisville. How do you see the future opening up for you? ABRAMSON: Well, I, I can&#039 ; t wait. He--this November, it will have been two years, so hope to have him home sometime in January, and, and figure out what the next steps will be. I know he loved teaching. It wouldn&#039 ; t surprise me if he would want to return to teaching in some capacity, but that&#039 ; s really the conversation we&#039 ; re having now, is what the next step will be. ELY: And what about for you? What dreams do you still have to fulfill? ABRAMSON: Well, I think that I would like--one of the things I learned from returning to college later in life is that it&#039 ; s--how important it is to keep learning and keep challenging yourself, and I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; ve done that enough. I love to read. I love, as I say, to participate with volunteer organizations, but just the whole process of studying, whether it&#039 ; s to take more Milton classes, or join the Veritas group at Bellarmine, or at least make a commitment to attend more lectures that are offered in the Jewish community--the new Lillian Seligman alav hashalom&#039 ; s family-endowed lecture series, or the Goldstein/Leibson lecture series, to take advantage of more of that, so that I can continue to learn and not get stagnant. ELY: Maybe travel? Maybe Israel? ABRAMSON: Yes, maybe so. ELY: And, is there anything I haven&#039 ; t asked you that you really think should be part of the archival record about your experience personally in Louisville? ABRAMSON: I think--one thing I would like to add, I just alluded to it briefly, but my work over the years with Jewish Hospital &amp ; St. Mary&#039 ; s Foundation, because I first joined the Jewish Hospital Foundation--was asked to join in the early &#039 ; 90s, and of course, Jewish Hospital merged with Caritas, the Caritas organization, and became the Jewish Hospital &amp ; St. Mary&#039 ; s Foundation, and having served on that over the years--again, to see the two faith traditions, and the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth who founded St. Mary and Elizabeth&#039 ; s Hospital, and Our Lady of Peace, and then certainly the Jewish community and its--with starting Jewish Hospital, but to see the way these two faith traditions combined and have worked so beautifully together over the years, I think, says something about our two communities, and about our city, because many times, I&#039 ; ve heard people say, Well, that&#039 ; s not going to work--you know, a Catholic hospital organization, a Jewish hospital organization-- ELY: --there were a few issues-- ABRAMSON: --yes, and--but, it&#039 ; s really, for the most part, has, I think, worked beautifully, in that despite some doctrinal differences, if that&#039 ; s the word, that had to be worked out, that the goal was always delivering healthcare, particularly to the underserved community, and I just think being a part of that has been really a very special part of my life. ELY: Well, I thank you for doing this interview. It was, uh, really wonderful to talk with you today. ABRAMSON: Thank you, Carol. F1: Can I pop in one additional question? ELY: Yes. Oh, please do. F1: I&#039 ; m curious about your son, and what he&#039 ; s up to now, what his college journey has been like, his connection or relationship to Louisville now, and his relationship to Judaism. ABRAMSON: Well, my son--our son--attended public school and graduated from Male High School, which was a wonderful experience. He played football, he sang in the chorus, he ran track, he took advantage of all the opportunities, fun opportunities schools can provide, and then we took him to visit a number of colleges, and then he decided that he wanted to stay in town and attend Bellarmine University, so we said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s fine, but if you want to stay in town, you have to live in the dorm, and get out on your own somewhat.&quot ; And that was a wonderful experience for him. He graduated as a Communications major, and currently works doing digital and social media for the Convention and Visitors Bureau, and he&#039 ; s training for the ironman, which, I&#039 ; m not sure where that came from, but he&#039 ; s, he&#039 ; s training for the ironman, and has done very well in some of the sprint and Olympic triathlons in which he&#039 ; s competed. But, he&#039 ; s also on the program committee at the JCC, and--so, I think I&#039 ; m encouraged by the fact that he wants to get involved in the community, and figure out ways to give back. He&#039 ; s still--he attends the regular services with us at temple occasionally, but is always there for the high holidays, and so I feel as though, um, he&#039 ; s just got a great--he&#039 ; s a great young man, and he&#039 ; s got a great life right now. He&#039 ; s engaged, just bought his first house, so, life is certainly good for him. ELY: Great. Well thank you. ABRAMSON: Thank you. END OF AUDIO FILE All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh399_jk034_abramson_ohm.xml 2016oh399_jk034_abramson_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh399_jk034_abramson_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Madeline Abramson, September 14, 2016 Description An account of the resource Madeline Abramson was raised as a Catholic in Louisville, Kentucky. In this interview, she explains her family’s involvement in the Catholic church and her dissatisfied feelings with religion before discovering Judaism. Abramson offers a unique perspective and elaborates on the similarities between Catholicism and Judaism. Abramson describes her education and career as a young adult prior to meeting her now husband, Jerry Abramson. Abramson discovered Judaism through meeting him in the early 1980s before marrying in 1989. She examines the role her husband played in her journey converting, and how the Louisville Jewish community welcomed her. Jerry Abramson’s political career began as Mayor of Old Louisville from 1986 to 1999 and mayor of Louisville Metro from 2003-2011. Abramson introduces her husband’s career and the effects it had on her, including the influence it had on her own service in the community. Madeline Abramson was passionate about her civic duties and became particularly involved in the women’s effort, arts and Jewish community. She became the chair of both the Kentucky Commission on Woman and the Kentucky Center for the Performing Arts. She is also involved with the National Council of Jewish Women. Abramson elaborates on their time as first family of Louisville. Although they were a religious minority, they embraced their faith in the public realm. Her husband eventually accepted the position of Lieutenant Governor under Governor Steve Beshear and later the position of Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Intergovernmental Affairs under President Obama. Jerry commuted between Louisville and both Frankfort and Washington D.C. to avoid moving his family. She describes the importance of maintaining a delicate balance between politics and family and discusses her role in both positions as a supporting wife, community leader, and mother. In this oral history, Madeline Abramson reflects on her past and elaborates on the future by discussing the influence Judaism has had on herself. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh399_jk034 Subject The topic of the resource Childhood Families. Education Catholicism Catholics--Kentucky Jews--Identity. Religion Holidays--Kentucky Judaism Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Louisville (Ky.) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Louisville (Ky.)--Politics and government Politicians--Kentucky Volunteers Conversion--Judaism. Jewish converts. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/dba52043222b71d9b9744139f66db34e.png ef0efa00a48fd041ffacf12bf935da0c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Richard Levy Interview Keyword Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Greater Louisville Organization for Health (GLOH) University of Louisville Hillel Harvard University Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Holidays. Immigrants Emigration and immigration. OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh395_jk032 Interview with Richard Levy, September 20, 2016 2016oh395_jk032 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Families. Family histories. Jewish families. Genealogy Irvine (Ky.) Lexington (Ky.). Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish children Childhood Religion Worship (Judaism) Jews--Identity. University of Kentucky Medical care Medical centers--Administration Physicians Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Greater Louisville Organization for Health (GLOH) University of Louisville Hillel Harvard University Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Holidays. Immigrants Emigration and immigration. Richard Levy Janice Crane 2016oh395_jk032_levy_acc001.mp3 0 https://oralhistory.uky.edu/spokedbaudio/2016oh395_jk032_levy_acc001.mp3 Other audio 2 Family history Okay. For official purposes, today is September 20th, 2016. Dr. Richard Carl Levy, born in Lexington, Kentucky in 1947, discusses family relations and origins. His father is Samuel Meyer Levy, who was born in Knoxville, Tennessee. His mother is Helen Lowitz, who was born in Hamilton, Ohio. His grandfather Jacob (&quot ; Jake&quot ; ) was maybe naturalized in Athens, Ohio and was preceded to the U.S. by his father in the 1870s. Fega Glika Levy came to the U.S. in 1907, landing in Baltimore and then to Knoxville where she married Jake Levy. Both of Richard Levy's parents have passed away. Levy had a sister, Charlotte Lois Levy, who passed away in 2006. Richard Levy is married to Beth Stacy Levy (maiden name Barrett), with whom he has three children, Damon, Danielle and Nicole. Damon has two children, Danielle has one child, and Nicole has two children. 1907 ; 1947 ; Athens (Ohio) ; Baltimore (Md.) ; Beth Stacy Barrett Levy ; Charlotte Lois Levy ; Damon Barrett Levy ; Danielle Barrett Levy ; Fega Glika Levy ; Hamilton (Ohio) ; Helen Lowitz ; Jacob &quot ; Jake&quot ; Levy ; Knoxville (Tenn.) ; Lexington (Ky.) ; New York City (N.Y.) ; Nicole Barrett Levy ; Richard Carl Levy ; Samuel Meyer Levy ; United States of America Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Genealogy ; Immigrants ; Jewish families. 35.9606, -83.9207 17 Knoxville (Tenn.) 363 Settling in Irvine, Kentucky Okay. I know that you're presently living in Cincinnati, but you once lived in Kentucky. Where in Kentucky did you live, and when did you live there? Richard Levy was born in Lexington, Kentucky but his family was living in Irvine, Kentucky at the time of his birth in 1947. When he was six years old, his family moved to Lexington, Kentucky for four years before moving back to Irvine, Kentucky where they remained until Richard was 17 years old and left for college at the University of Kentucky. Richard Levy is presently living in Cincinnati, Ohio. Levy's grandparents, Jacob Levy and Fega Glika Levy, moved to Lexington, Kentucky because a lot of their family from Lithuania were living in Lexington. However, before his grandparents moved to Lexington they were living in a small town outside of Knoxville, Tennessee called Tellico Plains. His father worked for IBM for a period of time in Cincinnati but otherwise always lived in Kentucky. Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Helen Lowitz ; Jacob &quot ; Jake&quot ; Levy ; Pusalotas (Lithuania) ; Pushelot (Lithuania) ; Sam Levy ; Tellico Plains (Tenn.) ; University of Kentucky ; Winchester (Ky.) Families. ; Family histories. ; Genealogy ; Irvine (Ky.) ; Jewish families. ; Lexington (Ky.) 55.9306, 24.239 17 Pushelot (Lithuania) 532 The Right Way Store What were the occupations of your parents? Richard Levy’s father, Samuel Levy was a merchant, who ran a dry goods store in Irvine, Kentucky called the Right Way Store. Richard’s mother, Helen Lowitz Levy, was a clerk in the dry goods store. The Right Way Store was on Main Street in downtown Irvine. Levy’s grandparents also owned a store down the street from the Right Way Store that sold men and women’s seasonal ready-to-wear clothing. Goods were purchased from Ades wholesalers in Lexington and wholesale shows in Louisville and Cincinnati. Richard and his sister Charlotte Levy both helped out at their father’s store, Charlotte as a salesperson and Richard with inventory and stocking. His mother Helen was a superb saleswoman. He tells a story about his parents discussing customers in Yiddish. His father also had a store in Lexington for a while at Third Street and Deweese, an area that sold to poor people and to African Americans. Ades store ; African Americans ; Charlotte Levy ; Helen Lowitz ; Jacob Levy ; Main Street, Irvine (Ky.) ; Ready-to-wear clothing ; Right Way Store ; Samuel Levy ; Yiddish Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Irvine (Ky.) ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Lexington (Ky.). ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 37.704, -83.9759 17 Main Street in Irvine, Kentucky where the Right Way Store was once located. 980 Judaism at home How would you describe your parents' relationship to Judaism? Levy discusses the role Judaism played throughout his childhood, including its role in his parents' lives. He believes that both of his parents viewed themselves as Jews before they were Americans, although they were very supportive and happy with being in America. His father, Samuel Meyer Levy, was raised, as Richard describes it, as a &quot ; somewhat observant Jew.&quot ; Both Samuel Levy and Helen Lowitz kept kosher, would walk to synagogue on the high holidays and observed all the holidays. Richard Levy explains that his mother adopted the practices of quasi-Orthodox Judaism but had grown up less observant because of family circumstances. Examples of quasi-Orthodox practices included that his father would not wear a yarmulke during the day. In addition, Samuel Meyer Levy would keep his store open on Saturdays because that is when most of his business would occur. However, the family did keep kosher. They had four sets of dishes, milchigs, and fleishigs, and a separate two sets for Passover. They bought kosher meat from Louisville or Cincinnati despite how hard that was to do. The family were members of Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and Helen Lowitz was once head of Hadassah. Richard Levy also discusses how his parents met and became a couple. Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Hadassah ; Helen Lowitz ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jacob Levy ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish practices ; Kosher ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Quasi-Orthodox Judaism ; Samuel Meyer Levy ; Synagogues ; Yarmulke ; Yiddish Childhood ; Entrepreneurship ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Lexington (Ky.). ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 38.2557, -85.751 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue 1397 Gender roles in Judaism When you were growing up, your grandmother was still alive and very active in the, in the synagogue. What do you remember about her participation? Richard Levy discusses the views of his family about the Jewish congregation. His grandmother and his mother viewed her role as a Jewish woman as a more restricted role than Jewish men. The women would make sure that the food was prepared, that the children were where they were supposed to be, and that costumes for productions were made. In addition, men and women sat on different sides of the synagogue during services. The women would sit on the left-hand side of the synagogue during services and would be &quot ; quietly yapping the whole service in English.&quot ; Meanwhile, the men would sit on the right-hand side of the synagogue doing davening in Hebrew. Many of the men would even try to do their davening as fast as possible as part of a game. Community ; Davening ; Faith ; Gender in Judaism ; Hebrew ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Ideology ; Jewish women ; Judaism ; Maxwell Street, Lexington (Ky.) ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue, Lexington (Ky.) ; Secular ; Shul ; Sunday school ; Synagogues ; Torah (scroll) Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish families. ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.039, -84.4968 17 Maxwell Street in Lexington, Kentucky. This is where Ohavay Zion Synogogue was located before it moved to its current location. 1729 Bar mitzvah Who were you in Hebrew school with? Richard Levy begins by discussing who his peers were at Ohavay Zion Synagogue in Hebrew School, such as Mark Rosenburg, David Shraburg and Simone Bloomfield. Levy had his bar mitzvah at the Ohavay Zion Synagogue in Lexington, Kentucky. He reflects on memories of his bar mitzvah, such as being worried about not being able to make it to the synagogue because of a snow storm and how all of the women in the family pitched in to cook for the occasion. He discusses how he studied for his bar mitzvah. His sister, Charlotte Levy, although having a natural tongue for Hebrew, was not allowed to have a bat mitzvah at the time because it was the women’s role to support the men of the congregation, and to have and raise children, not to be an active, religious part of the community. Levy also discusses his dual childhood as a rural boy in Irvine and a more open Jewish life in Lexington, slightly an outsider in both communities. Bar mitzvahs ; Charlotte Levy ; David Shraburg ; Gender norms ; Hebrew schools ; Jewish ; Jewish life ; Jewish women ; Jews ; Mark Rosenberg ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue, Lexington (Ky.) ; Second generation ; Secular ; Simone Bloomfield ; Women in Judaism Holidays. ; Irvine (Ky.) ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism ; Lexington (Ky.). ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 2107 The Kimball House Do you remember the Kimball House? Richard Levy and Janice Crane (the interviewer) both reflect on their memories of the Kimball House. Levy describes the Kimball House as a 'runt of a hotel' that many observant Jews stayed at during the high holidays so that they could walk to the synagogue. Sam Levy, among other Jews in the community, would walk far distances to shul, even from Chevy Chase. Crane recalls Levy convincing her to get next to the monkey cage at the Kimball House and the daddy monkey, named George, ruined her new dress. Chevy Chase ; Helen Lowitz ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Kimball House ; Orthodox customs ; Sam Levy ; Synagogues Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.04365, -84.50114 17 The Kimball House 2292 Irvine High School and football Um, you mentioned--I know that you played football in high school. Um, where did you go to high school? Levy discusses his time at Irvine High School from 1961-64, where he played football. However, he only completed three years of high school and never graduated because he got into trouble with the school and had also outgrown it intellectually. Therefore, he went to summer school at the University of Kentucky. Levy's father, Samuel Levy, knew someone in admissions at the University of Kentucky who told him that if Richard could get 3 A's in summer school, he could stay and enroll at the University of Kentucky full time. While he was in high school, Levy's parents still let him play football on Friday nights even though it was Shabbat, as part of his overall &quot ; American experience.&quot ; In addition, they let him play because his sister, Charlotte Lois Levy, was a cheerleader for the team and therefore also had a commitment to participate on Friday nights. Because Richard Levy could not play football during the Jewish high holidays, his coach would tease him and try to convince him to skip services for his football games. 1961-1964 ; American experiences ; Charlotte Lois Levy ; Cheerleaders ; Cultural acceptance ; Discrimination ; Football ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Irvine High School ; Jewish religion ; Judaism ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Sports ; Summer school ; University of Kentucky Education ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Football players. ; Football. ; Holidays. ; Irvine (Ky.) ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 37.7356, -83.989 17 Irvine High School in Irvine, Kentucky 2531 Religious tolerance in Irvine In an interview with your parents that was recorded in 1986--I listened to it, and your dad said that he chose moving to Irvine because it was a good town, and there was no anti-Semitism there. How would you describe growing up Jewish in Irvine, Kentucky? And did you experience any anti-Semitism? Levy discusses the antisemitism (or lack thereof) in his community. He notes that Irvine, Kentucky was a very Baptist community where some people viewed Jews as &quot ; Christ killers,&quot ; but he generally experienced the community as religiously tolerant. Occasionally, country people would call the family's store, the Right Way Store, a &quot ; Jew store.&quot ; Richard Levy does not take offense at this, understanding it as people's way to describe the &quot ; foreign-like people who owned it.&quot ; He didn't personally directly experience any anti-Semitism. &quot ; Jew store&quot ; ; Antisemitism ; Baptist religion ; Jewish ; Judaism ; Religious tolerance ; Right Way Store ; Sam Levy Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Entrepreneurship ; Irvine (Ky.) ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Irvine. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 37.7006, -83.9738 17 Irvine (Ky.) 2704 Connections to Judaism / Jewish community How were you connected with the larger Jewish community in Lexington? I sort of know from the synagogue and I guess socially you were connected, you had family, but what about Louisville and Cincinnati? Richard Levy reflects on traveling to Cincinnati or Louisville every two months or so growing up to visit family, but more importantly to buy kosher products. They would go to a Jewish butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker because otherwise those products had to be shipped to them in Irvine, Kentucky. Richard Levy also attended youth group during high school and one summer to Camp Livingston when he was younger. Levy also discusses how Jewish values have affected his adult life, such as marrying a Jewish woman, Beth Levy, and having three children. He learned a deep set of values, more urbane and valuing education from his interactions with Lexington's Jewish community. Beth Levy ; Camp Livingston ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Jewish values ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Youth groups Irvine (Ky.) ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.8497, -85.1127 17 Camp Livingston 2934 Bandage rolling parties In order to further document some of Central Kentucky's Jewish history, can you explain any family relationships that your immediate family had with other members of the Jewish community? Richard Levy begins this section by explaining that his family had a relatively small set of Jewish friends in Lexington, Kentucky while he was growing up because the congregation at the time was also relatively small. He names his cousins in relation to one another. He notes that his mother, Helen Lowitz, had about a dozen Jewish friends who lived in Lexington and he remembers her inviting them over to play cards at their house. After the Korean War, his mother and her friends would have bandage rolling parties. The women would frequently get together to roll gauze into a sealed package that they would send off to a military institution in order to help with the war effort. Becky Silverman of Winchester, Kentucky and Reuven Levy are both first cousins of Richard Levy. Bandage rolling ; Bandage rolling party ; Becky Silverman ; Central Kentucky ; Cousins ; Helen Lowitz ; Jewish history ; Reuven Levy ; Sam Levy ; War effort ; Winchester (Ky.) Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Korean War, 1950-1953 ; Lexington (Ky.). 17 3153 Jewish life and ritual / Charlotte Levy What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual growing up? Levy reflects on his memories of Passover Seders and staying on McDowell Road in Lexington during the Jewish high holidays of Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur so the family could walk to shul. He remembers how peculiar it was to perform Jewish rituals in Irvine, Kentucky, where nobody outside of his family would have any idea what the ancient rituals meant or symbolized. Levy also reflects on his sister, Charlotte Levy, whom he admired greatly. Charlotte embraced Judaism and might have become a rabbi if women had been allowed to then. She was an attorney, a linguist, a law librarian, and had several postgraduate degrees. Charlotte Levy ; Davening ; Gender ; Hebrew ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; McDowell Road ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Rosh Hashana ; Samuel Levy ; Seder ; Shul ; Yom Kippur Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Irvine (Ky.) ; Jewish families. ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.). ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0296, -84.483 17 200 McDowell Road. The apartment building that the Levys would stay at during the Jewish high holidays in Lexington, Kentucky. 3409 The University of Kentucky I know that you attended the University of Kentucky. We already know how you got there. Um, what years were you there again? Richard Levy attended the University of Kentucky from 1965 to 1969. He began his college career in a similar fashion to many students today, not knowing what path he wanted to follow. However, in Irvine, Kentucky the most honorable thing you could do was to be a doctor. Therefore, Levy declared a major in chemistry so that he could eventually enroll in medical school. Getting into medical school at that time was very competitive, so Levy spent a lot of time studying to get good grades and was involved in a lot of undergraduate activities to boost his chances, as well as dating and parties. 1965-1969 ; Chemistry ; College life ; Dating ; Medical school ; Social life Education, Higher ; Higher education ; Irvine (Ky.) ; University of Kentucky 17 3615 Zeta Beta Tau and Hillel at UK Um, specifically related to Jewish life, uh, there were two things that I can think of. One was, uh, uh, a Jewish fraternity called ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau]. Richard Levy was a member of the Jewish fraternity Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) because the other Greek fraternities at the University of Kentucky, such as Delta Tau Delta and Sigma Chi, would not accept Jews. ZBT at the time had mostly Jewish members, but not exclusively Jews. Levy describes the ZBT house on Rose Lane in Lexington, Kentucky. ZBT roommates of Levy include Rick Begun from New Rochelle, New York, Artie Salomon, and an African-American boarder. ZBT was mostly secular with no observance of Judaism, with most brothers secular Northeastern Jews, and even had a president who was not Jewish one of Levy's years there. Richard Levy was also a member of Hillel and was president of the organization his junior year of college. Hillel focused on social activities, discussions, and meals. African Americans ; Artie Salomon ; Delta Tau Delta ; Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Hillel ; Jewish fraternities ; Jews ; Kentucky ; New Rochelle (N.Y.) ; Rick Begun ; Rose Lane ; Sigma Chi ; Social life ; University of Kentucky ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; College students--Religious life ; Discrimination. ; Education, Higher ; Higher education ; Jews--Identity. ; Lexington (Ky.). ; Religion ; University of Kentucky ; Worship (Judaism) 38.035, -84.4996 17 422 Rose Lane Lexington, Kentucky 40508. Location of the Zeta Beta Tau house during Levy's time at the University of Kentucky. http://kdl.kyvl.org/catalog/xt7g7940sj9h_243 Zeta Beta Tau in the University of Kentucky Yearbook in 1966. 4060 Judaism during college years How did the time that you spent at UK impact your Jewish identity? Levy states that he does not think that college had much of an impact on his Jewish identity. Rather, his Jewish identity was formed at home and in his congregation, Ohavay Zion. When he attended the University of Kentucky, he says that his Jewish identity was put on hold. Other than being a member in Hillel and the Zeta Beta Tau fraternity, Richard Levy did not have a deeply religious college experience. He would visit Irvine, Kentucky for Passover and visit his grandmother, who lived on McDowell road. When Levy visited his grandmother, the two would speak the remnants of Yiddish that Richard could still remember. However, Richard Levy believes that he had an ordinary college experience. Levy notes that the highlight of his time at the University of Kentucky was the basketball team. He would listen to the radio announcer Cawood Ledford during every game. Cawood Ledford ; Hillel ; McDowell Street ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue, Lexington (Ky.) ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Yiddish ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College students--Religious life ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Irvine, Kentucky ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism ; Judaism. ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Religion ; University of Kentucky ; Worship (Judaism) 37.999, -84.4718 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue http://www.kentucky.com/sports/college/kentucky-sports/uk-basketball-men/article136891773.html An article about Cawood Ledford 4271 Medical school at the University of Louisville / Harvard University / Emergency medicine I know you're a physician so where did you go to medical school and what years were--was that? Richard Levy attended medical school at the University of Louisville from 1969-1973. He got a Masters in Public Health from Harvard University in Boston, Massachusetts. While at Harvard, Levy practiced medicine part-time at Mass General Hospital. This sparked his interest in health care as a system. He then moved to the University of Cincinnati and the Cincinnati General Hospital which pioneered emergency medicine. In response to the race riots in the late 1960s in Cincinnati, the old General Hospital attached to the University of Cincinnati agreed to improve its emergency room and train doctors in emergency medicine. Levy started to write about his experiences and became the administrator of that program. Boston (Mass.) ; Emergency medicine ; General Hospital, Cincinnati (Ohio) ; George Schmitt ; Mass General Hospital ; Medical schools ; Race riots Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Education, Higher ; Harvard University ; Higher education ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care ; Medical centers--Administration ; Physicians ; University of Louisville 39.3237, -84.5077 17 Cininnati Mass General Hospital 4565 The Greater Louisville Organization for Health The other thing is that, that in medical school this was in the period of time where, you know, it was peace, with--and I'm showing you the peace sign right now, and where it was anti-war, and I became involved in the anti-war movement. In 1969, Richard Levy founded a student-run health center called the Greater Louisville Organization for Health (GLOH) in order to provide primary care to poor people. He explains that he founded the organization at a time when there was a huge anti-war movement because of the Vietnam War. At the time that the Greater Louisville Organization for Health was created, poor people had very limited access to healthcare. Medicaid was just being rolled out and there was still enough social and racial bias that most doctors did not want to participate. Through GLOH, medical students provided medical care. The GLOH existed until 2011. 1969 ; Anti war movement ; Anti-war movement ; Greater Louisville Organization for Health (GLOH) ; Medicaid ; Racial bias ; Racism ; Social bias ; University of Cincinnati ; University of Louisville Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care ; Physicians--Kentucky ; Poor--Medical care ; Poverty ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 17 4809 The University of Louisville How did you choose, uh, University of Louisville for med school? Richard Levy chose to attend the University of Louisville in Louisville, Kentucky over the University of Kentucky for medical school. Levy made this decision because he received in-state tuition so it was more affordable for his father Sam Levy who had agreed to pay for it. The University of Kentucky medical school was just getting started at the time.The medical school at the University of Louisville was downtown, four miles from the rest of campus, so it was fairly isolated from campus life. Also, because medical school was so competitive, Levy needed to study a lot. Levy joined a Jewish-like fraternity while at the University of Louisville, but could not remember the name of it. He recalls that the Jewish fraternity was indistinguishable from the 2-3 medical fraternities because it was not very observant of Jewish practices. He dated Jewish girls but didn't actively practice Judaism during medical school. Greek life (fraternities, sororities) ; Jewish fraternity ; Jews ; Medical fraternity ; Medical schools ; Sam Levy ; Social life College students--Religious life ; Education, Higher ; Higher education ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; University of Kentucky ; University of Louisville 38.212, -85.757 17 The University of Louisville 5091 Business ventures Tell me about the rest of your business ventures. Levy discusses his ventures in commerce post-college. When in Washington, D.C. twenty-five years ago, Richard Levy met up with his cousin, Marcia Silverman, who was from Winchester, Kentucky and had attended the University of Pennsylvania. Her parents had owned a shmata store, where they sold dry goods. Silverman went on to become the head of one of the largest advertising agencies in the United States, so Levy asked her how she ended up doing so well. After listening to Marcia's advice, even while in medicine, Levy got involved in several business ventures such as a software company, a wire carrier, a water redistribution supply company, a billing company, and a company that made cabinetry for courthouses all over America. Levy describes his strategy as, &quot ; looking for things that had potential value, and putting some money in them, and trying to find some good people who would work on them, and, and then kibitzing.&quot ; Levy is driven by wanting to live an interesting life, with time to explore various options including the &quot ; shmata business&quot ; (commerce). Businesses ; Marcia Silverman ; Shmata store ; University of Pennsylvania ; Washington, D.C. ; Winchester (Ky.) Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Washington (D.C.) 38.907, -77.037 17 Washington (D.C.) 5329 Being a professor at the University of Cincinnati What, um--as a professor, tell me what you did as, as a professor at UC? Richard Levy has taught medical students and residents at the University of Cincinnati since 1984. He was the founding chairman of the Department of Emergency Medicine at the University of Cincinnati. Levy did several kinds of research, such as animal and drug testing. In addition, Richard Levy also practiced medicine, seeing patients mostly in the emergency room. Emergency medicine ; Professors Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Education, Higher ; Higher education ; Physicians ; University of Cincinnati 39.1329, -84.515 17 The University of Cincinnati 5470 Passing on Jewish values Okay, so somewhere in all of that you and Beth have raised some children. Um, so what was Judaism like in your home, and how was it different from that as your parents? Levy discusses passing Jewish values and traditions to his children, and what they decided to do with that knowledge. His wife, Beth Levy, grew up in a non-observant Jewish home with a general understanding of Judaism ; her brother had been bar mitzvahed but Beth had not. Further showcasing gender roles of the time, after Richard and Beth Levy got married and had children, Beth took on the &quot ; main family support role.&quot ; Richard Levy said that she paid a professional price by taking on that role. The family were members of the reform congregation Wise Temple in Cincinnati, Ohio. As a family, the Levys would light candles on Shabbat and observe Jewish holidays but did not keep kosher. All three of their children are married to non-Jews. Two of them are raising their children to be Jews, including attending a Jewish afternoon school and hiring an Israeli nanny to teach the children Hebrew. Beth Levy ; Gender roles ; Jewish schools ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue, Lexington (Ky.) ; Reform Judaism ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Wise Temple Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish women ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 39.213, -84.429 17 The Wise Temple in Cincinnati, Ohio 5768 Judaism in retrospect How would you explain how your Jewishness, um, and your practices have changed over time? I mean, clearly they have, but what do you feel like is the reason behind that? Levy discusses how his relationship with religion has changed over time, and any regrets associated with it. He states, &quot ; I was born a Jew, I was married as a Jew, and I'll die as a Jew.&quot ; Richard Levy believes that Judaism has been a fundamental and important part of his life, though he has moved in and out of Jewish practices across time. When it is convenient, Levy will still celebrate Jewish holidays. The only thing that is more important to Levy than his religion is his family. He ends saying he was lucky being raised as a Jew and learning its value system. Most religions convey how to treat others, the environment, yourself. &quot ; I learned a pretty good set of principles that have guided me.&quot ; Judaism through his parents and Lexington gave Richard the framework to be a good person. Family ; Jewish holidays Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 interview Richard Levy discusses his genealogy and his family's immigration to the United States. He talks about living in Irvine and Lexington, Kentucky and the Right Way Store his father owned. He discusses the role Judaism played throughout his childhood, the Jewish practices his family followed, and their connections to the Jewish community. He talks about his time at the University of Kentucky, including his participation in Hillel and Zeta Beta Tau. He talks about his time in medical school and his experiences as a doctor. He discusses his business ventures and his teaching career. He reflects on the role of Judaism in his life. No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. audio Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh395_jk032_levy_ohm.xml 2016oh395_jk032_levy_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh395_jk032_levy_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard Levy, September 20, 2016 Description An account of the resource Richard Levy discusses his genealogy and his family's immigration to the United States. He talks about living in Irvine and Lexington, Kentucky and the Right Way Store his father owned. He discusses the role Judaism played throughout his childhood, the Jewish practices his family followed, and their connections to the Jewish community. He talks about his time at the University of Kentucky, including his participation in Hillel and Zeta Beta Tau. He talks about his time in medical school and his experiences as a doctor. He discusses his business ventures and his teaching career. He reflects on the role of Judaism in his life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh395_jk032 Subject The topic of the resource Families. Family histories. Jewish families. Genealogy Irvine (Ky.) Lexington (Ky.). Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish children Childhood Religion Worship (Judaism) Jews--Identity. University of Kentucky Medical care Medical centers--Administration Physicians Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/02f098da33e0460050894285d1cc2916.png ef0efa00a48fd041ffacf12bf935da0c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stanley Kravetz OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh394_jk031 Interview with Stanley Kravetz, September 20, 2016 2016oh394_jk031 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Stanley Kravetz Janice Crane 2016oh394_jk031_kravetz_acc001.mp3 1:|19(3)|29(8)|40(5)|57(7)|83(4)|113(2)|127(16)|142(3)|151(3)|166(15)|175(15)|189(13)|204(12)|223(12)|236(8)|245(11)|257(10)|274(11)|289(2)|298(11)|308(12)|323(9)|337(13)|350(7)|362(12)|391(3)|419(8)|433(7)|449(7)|461(3)|470(6)|479(10)|490(16)|498(8)|519(4)|527(3)|548(3)|559(10)|569(17)|585(6)|602(3)|620(3)|643(14)|666(13)|697(5)|709(8)|726(14)|735(17)|747(3)|759(6)|769(3)|783(11)|790(9)|801(9)|811(14)|822(5)|845(3)|874(1) 0 https://oralhistory.uky.edu/spokedbaudio/2016oh394_jk031_kravetz_acc001.mp3 Other audio 0 Background and Family History For official purposes, today is September 20th, 2016. My name is Janice Crane and I'm part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Kravetz describes his family's history. He first explains that he was born in Georgetown, Kentucky in 1934. Both his mother Rose Applebaum Kravetz and father Isaac Kravetz were born in Lithuania. Though both were refugees, his mother immigrated to the US through Ellis Island and his father walked in through Windsor, Ontario, Canada around 1920. For the record Kravetz names his children and siblings, current wife, and his first wife who died. Andrea Kravetz ; Canada ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Ellis Island ; Faye Kravetz ; Georgetown, Kentucky ; Isaac Kravetz ; Kim Kravetz ; Lithuania ; Norma-Jean Marcus Kravetz ; Pam Kravetz ; Pušalotas ; Pushelat ; Reenie Shuman Kravetz ; refugees ; Rose Applebaum Kravetz ; Sandra Kravetz (Shanee) ; Scott Kravetz ; shtetl ; Todd Kravetz ; Windsor 42° 17' 33.6336, -82° 59' 36.006 17 Windsor, Ontario, Canada 352 Background and Family History (Part 2) Um, someday your grandchildren are going to have a homework assignment to share their family history, and they will really appreciate how easy you're making this for them. So will you please tell me the names and ages of your grandchildren? Kravetz continues naming his abundance of grandchildren. He then goes on to describe his grandparents and how they lived, saying that his grandfather was a blacksmith for the czar of Russia and how they left Lithuania in 1918. Bella Bryan ; blacksmith ; Czar ; Joey Bryan ; Karma Bryan ; Max Weldonhouse ; Noah Kravetz ; Zera KravetzSara (Sarita) Kravetz 55.1694° N, 23.8813° E 17 The country of Lithuania 570 Rural Childhood in Kentucky Okay, Stanley, you're presently living in Cincinnati but I know that you once lived in Kentucky. Kravetz explains his experiences growing up on a dairy farm in Sadieville, Kentucky during the 1930s. He describes how he was persecuted and bullied while in grade school around 1942 in Georgetown, and how after a couple years he was accepted by the students that had previously tormented him. Cincinnati, Ohio ; dairy farm ; Georgetown, Kentucky ; Sadieville, Kentucky N 38° 23' 26.9297 17 Sadieville, Kentucky 691 Coming to Kentucky/Farming in Rural Kentucky in the 1910s What brought your family to Kentucky? Kravetz describes how his father came to Kentucky in 1918 first as a peddler and then became a farmer in the 1920s. He describes the tough life of having a dairy farm as well as a tobacco crop and managing and working by hand until technology made life easier. He then explains the lack of Jewish farms where he grew up in Sadieville and Georgetown. Canada ; czar ; dairy farm ; Germans ; government ; Kentucky ; Lexington, Kentucky ; peddling ; Pušalotas ; refrigeration ; Robert Kravetz ; Russian Army ; Scott County, Kentucky ; Sealtest ; Shutomer ; tobacco ; US-25 ; White Russia N 38° 23' 26.9297 17 Sadieville, Kentucky 1164 Jewish Practice and Observance as a Child 1934-1952 How would you describe your parents' relationship to Judaism? Kravetz explains what his family’s Jewish practice/ritual observance was like growing up in the 1930s/1940s in Georgetown. He describes how his parents were Orthodox and were very strict, for example they observed kashruth or the Jewish dietary laws. He then describes his experience and feelings toward the slaughter of animals, in particular the chickens they would raise and take to Lexington for slaughter by Mr. Goller, the kosher butcher. Kravetz also explains what Jewish holidays were like and that they would go to Cincinnati instead of Lexington to celebrate. He then explains his and his family's relationship to Judaism and the Ohavay Zion Synagogue in Lexington. Bar mitzvahs ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Goller ; Jewish holidays ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; Lexington synagogue ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Ritual Knife ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; shochet ; Slaughter 37.9986° N, 84.4718° W 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue in Lexington, Kentucky http://www.ozs.org 1590 Jewish Practice in Rural Kentucky How did living in Scott County, Georgetown, affect your family's affiliation with the Jewish communities in either Lexington or Cincinnati? Kravetz explains how his Jewishness impacted his experiences in rural Kentucky and high school. He describes how living in rural Kentucky negatively affected his affiliation with the Jewish community as well as the family he had in Cincinnati, Lexington, and Georgetown. Kravetz then goes on to explain that his Jewish identity did not affect his high school experience, both in rural Kentucky and in Cincinnati. He then describes what he learned about Judaism from his parents as well as how Judaism affects his choices, such as decisions affecting the close-knit Lexington Jewish community. He then describes the vivid memory of having his bar mitzvah at Ohavay Zion Synagogue in Lexington. Bar mitzvahs ; Central Kentucky ; Christians ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Garth High School ; Georgetown, Kentucky ; haftarah ; Hughes High ; Lexington, Kentucky ; maftir ; Maxwell Street (Lexington) ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Scott County, Kentucky N 38° 2' 37.311 17 Synagogue on Maxwell Street, now Joe Bologna's Pizzeria 2079 Speaking Yiddish Before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else unique--that you would like to share, or that we should know, about your family background or your childhood years? Kravetz briefly describes a story his father would tell him. He explains that even though his father lived in Russia, his father's family lived in a shtetl and only spoke Yiddish. He then explains how Yiddish is a beautiful yet dying language. Lithuanians ; Russian ; Russians ; Yiddish 55.1694° N, 23.8813° E 17 Lithuania 2208 Student Life at the University of Kentucky: 1950s Okay. Let's move on to the University of Kentucky. I know that you went to the University of Kentucky. Kravetz describes why he chose and went to the University of Kentucky. He studied Agriculture and attended in the 1950s, possibly from 1954 to 1958. He then describes his living accommodations while at the University, as well as his social life and his work life. barracks ; Fontana Avenue ; Irving Steinberg ; jewelry store ; University of Kentucky 38.0307° N, 84.5040° W 17 University of Kentucky, Lexington, Kentucky 2392 University of Kentucky Jewish Student Life: 1950s and 1960s Describe any involvement you had with the Jewish organizations on campus such as a Jewish fraternity or Hillel. Kravetz describes the lack of involvement he had with Jewish organizations during his college years around 1954. He explains how there was very little available on campus and many of the organizations were started while he was at the University. Kravetz describes what Jewish holidays were like while he was there as well as the absence of Jewish girls on campus. He then describes his daily life and his ability to keep kosher, even while in the military. Finally he describes the Jewish population in Lexington as a whole and explains how U.K. impacted his Jewish identity. Billy Golton ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; College of Agriculture ; Hillel ; Jack Miller ; jewelry store ; Jewish fraternities ; Jewish fraternity ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish sororities ; Jewish sorority ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; Lexington Jewish Community ; Maxwell Street (Lexington) ; Meals Ready to Eat (MRE) ; Military service ; Sidney Steinberg ; Synagogue ; Z.B.T. 38.0307° N, 84.5040° W 17 University of Kentucky, Lexington, Kentucky 2850 Professional Life After College So what was your life after college? Kravetz explains what his life was like after college when he was in the army. After the army, he was a successful optician in Cincinnati while his wife, Norma Jean, was a school teacher. Army ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; optician ; school teacher 17 2903 Jewish Observance in Adult Life What was Judaism in your home like as an adult or parent? Kravetz describes how he practiced more reformed Judaism as a parent and an adult. He explains that they were not Orthodox but kept kosher and celebrated the sabbath, but not as strictly as he did in childhood. Kravetz then explains how his adult practice was very different from his parents' Jewish practices. For example, as an adult he does not go to the synagogue every sabbath, but he did as a child. He explains how he would celebrate the holidays as a parent and how he has become less religious over time. He attributes his moving away from faith and practice to the Holocaust. Jewish holidays ; Judaism ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Synagogue 17 3201 Zionism/ Israel How do you feel about Zionism? What role does Israel have in your life? Kravetz describes his strong feelings about Israel and how he understands it to be a sanctuary if another Holocaust event were to happen. He then explains how he has never been to Israel, but his children and grandchildren have and how he lives vicariously through them. France ; French Jews ; Holocaust ; Israel ; Lithuania ; Russia ; Zionism 31.0461° N, 34.8516° E 17 Israel 3329 Pictures from Family History Stanley, tell me about these two pictures that you have. Kravetz describes the picture of his father Isaac Kravetz and how he was in the Russian Army. He then describes the picture of his grandfather and how he was a blacksmith. Kravetz then describes the picture of himself in a traditional tzitzit, a ritual piece of clothing worn by Orthodox Jews. blacksmith ; Russia ; Russian Army ; Scott County, Kentucky ; Tzitzit 17 interview Stanley Kravetz was born in Georgetown, Kentucky on March 4, 1934. Both his mother and father were born in Lithuania and immigrated to the United States as refugees. Kravetz discusses his grandparents’ lives, his experiences growing up in rural Kentucky, as well as how his family came to Kentucky. Next Kravetz explains what Judaism was like growing up, explaining how his parents were Orthodox and how they celebrated holidays. Then Kravetz discusses his relationship to Judaism when living in rural Kentucky and going to school as a Jewish boy. Furthermore, he goes on to describe his memories from childhood, and family ties in Cincinnati, Lexington, and Georgetown. Kravetz briefly describes a story of his father when he lived in a Russian shtetl and only spoke Yiddish. He then shifts to the University of Kentucky and his daily life as a college student during the 1950s. Next he discusses his involvement with Jewish organizations, such as Zeta Beta Tau and Hillel at U.K. as well as his involvement in the Lexington community while he was a student at UK. Kravetz then discusses life after college, including his involvement in the army and later his career as an optician. Moreover Kravetz discusses practicing non-orthodox Judaism as a parent and an adult, which was different from what he was accustomed to in his early life. Kravetz briefly discusses his strong feelings about Israel and how he perceives it as a “ last resort” for Jewish people in the event that another Holocaust were to happen. Finally, Kravetz describes pictures from the past of himself, his father, and his grandfather. The interview concludes with Mr. Kravetz graciously thanking the interviewer. CRANE: For official purposes, today is September 20th, 2016. My name is Janice Crane and I&#039 ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I&#039 ; m honored and delighted to be here today with Stanley Kravetz, presently living in Cincinnati. Stanley is family, my second cousin, and one of my all-time favorite relatives who is a special friend to my older brothers. I look forward to hearing Stanley&#039 ; s stories, some memories, and experiences growing up Jewish in Kentucky. Okay, Stanley, what was your full name at birth? KRAVETZ: Um, Stanley Jack Kravetz. CRANE: And will you spell Kravetz for me, &#039 ; cause sometimes I see it with an E and sometimes I see it with an I. KRAVETZ: K-r-a-v-e-t-z. CRANE: When and where were you born? KRAVETZ: I was born in Georgetown, Kentucky, 1934, March the 4th. CRANE: I know that both of your parents have passed away, but for the record and because they are part of your story, what were their names and about when and where were they born? KRAVETZ: Okay. My father was born in Lithuania. There were not birth certificates or any kind of, um, certificates pertaining to their births. So basically, we gave him a birthdate of January the 1st, 1900. So that&#039 ; s an arbitrary number because, uh, no one really knows. And my mother was born in Lithuania and, um, she was born in 19--I think about 1915, and, um, and they both were refugees. They came to, uh, the US. My mother was able to get into Ellis Island, but my father--although he had papers and the necessary items to get here, to get in here--they would not let him in. So, he went up to Canada. Canada took him, and, um, he said that it was a holiday of some sort--he didn&#039 ; t know what it was--and a lot of people were going back and forth from Windsor on the bridge, just walking. So, he said he got in with a group of people and just walked right into the country. CRANE: Hmm. KRAVETZ: So, um--and my father was born in Lithuania also. CRANE: Uh, what were their names at--uh, when they were born? What was your mother&#039 ; s name? KRAVETZ: Rose ; R-o-s-e. My father was Isaac. CRANE: Do you remember--what was your, your mother&#039 ; s maiden name? KRAVETZ: Applebaum. CRANE: Applebaum. Okay. And of course you have siblings. What are their names and ages relative to you? KRAVETZ: Uh, the eldest is Andrea Kravetz. She&#039 ; s fifty-five. Uh, Pam Kravetz is uh, fifty-three. Uh, Scott Kravetz is--just had a birthday. He&#039 ; s fifty. And I have twins, uh, they were, um, let&#039 ; s see, they--their ages, forty-five. It&#039 ; s Kim and Todd. They&#039 ; re twins. CRANE: And Kim passed away, uh, less than two years ago? KRAVETZ: Yes. A year and a half ago. CRANE: Okay. Those are your children. KRAVETZ: Right. CRANE: What were your siblings? KRAVETZ: Okay. My siblings was, um, Sandra or Shanee, and, uh, her age is seventy--I think seventy. And, uh, Faye. Faye, I think she&#039 ; s about seventy-five. CRANE: Okay. I know you&#039 ; re married and I&#039 ; m sorry I&#039 ; m missing getting to see her. Um, but what was your--is your wife&#039 ; s full name? KRAVETZ: Um, Reenie Kravetz. CRANE: What was her maiden name? KRAVETZ: Her maiden name was Shuman. CRANE: Shuman? KRAVETZ: S-h-u-m-a-n. Shuman. CRANE: Okay. And where was she--is she from? KRAVETZ: Here, at Cincinnati. She was born in Cincinnati. CRANE: And when did you get married. KRAVETZ: We got married, let&#039 ; s see-- CRANE: This is a test. KRAVETZ: Forty-six years ago. Let me see, forty-six years ago from now. I hate to be, um, evasive. CRANE: That&#039 ; s okay. KRAVETZ: What&#039 ; s forty-six from two-o-one-six? Forty-six, zero-- CRANE: That&#039 ; s okay. KRAVETZ: Uh, 1970. CRANE: Okay. And you were married before Reenie, and you were widowed. Again for the record, what was your first wife&#039 ; s full name? KRAVETZ: Uh, Norma-Jean, uh, Kravetz of course. Her maiden name was Marcus (??). CRANE: Marcus. Okay. Um, someday your grandchildren are going to have a homework assignment to share their family history, and they will really appreciate how easy you&#039 ; re making this for them. So will you please tell me the names and ages of your grandchildren? KRAVETZ: Uh, I have--the eldest, uh, live in Kentucky, and um, they&#039 ; re sixteen. That&#039 ; s Bella and, uh, let&#039 ; s see, fourteen is Joey, and, uh, twelve is Karma, and their made--their name is Bryan, B-r-y-a-n. CRANE: Okay. KRAVETZ: Then, uh, let&#039 ; s see, I have Max Weldonhouse. He&#039 ; s just twenty-two. And, let&#039 ; s see--there&#039 ; s so many of them--um-- CRANE: A lucky man. KRAVETZ: Yeah I am. I feel very fortunate. Uh, they all live, live, uh, basically right around here. And then there&#039 ; s Noah Kravetz. He is gonna be five. And his sister is, um, Zera (??). She was named after--after Kim. And, um, she is going to be one year old. And I think that covers everybody. CRANE: Okay. I know your paternal grandmother&#039 ; s name was Sarita (??) or Sara (??). KRAVETZ: Right. CRANE: She was my great-aunt, and at some point lived in Europe, and she perhaps owned or operated a hotel. I heard stories about that. And maybe came from Pušalotas [Pushalot], the same shtetl in Lithuania where so many other older Kentucky Jewish families had their roots. What do you know or remember about your grandparents? KRAVETZ: The--(clears throat)--not a great deal. Um, my grandfather&#039 ; s name was Nathan Kravetz and he was a blacksmith. And uh, the way that they survived--and as your mother told me also, Martha Steinberg--the way they survived in Lithuania was that my grandfather--like I said, was a blacksmith. He was, um, a blacksmith to the czar and he made the wagon wheels for the czar&#039 ; s wagons. And, um, basically that&#039 ; s how they survived ; because he had a decent job. Otherwise, uh, it was a very difficult life there. A very hard life. And, um, my father helped him in the blacksmith shop. So, uh-- CRANE: So when our families left, left Lithuania in their covered wagons and went and had tea at the czar&#039 ; s place, it was your grandfathers that let them in? KRAVETZ: Yes. He was--he was the instrument in, uh, in their survival, and you know, in all--all things that happened there. CRANE: Wow. Okay, Stanley, you&#039 ; re presently living in Cincinnati but I know that you once lived in Kentucky. You were born in Georgetown. KRAVETZ: Georgetown. Um-hm. CRANE: Where in Kentucky did you live? Did you live only in Georgetown or did you live other places, and when was this? KRAVETZ: Well--(clears throat)--when I was born we lived in Sadieville. We had a farm in Sadieville. And, um, then we moved to Georgetown, Kentucky. And uh, we were the only Jews that lived there at that time. Well even now--(laughs)--I imagine. I don&#039 ; t know if there&#039 ; s any there now. So, we were the only Jews that were there, and they had a little difficulty getting accepted. People had preconceived ideas about Jews, and, uh, it was difficult. You know, I had problems at school, uh, I had to defend myself, fight my way home almost every day. And, uh, I know my third grade teacher, Miss Carry, she would let me out twenty minutes early so I could--(laughs)--beat the crowd going home, because we all walked. There was no buses then. But that only lasted for a few years and after that I was--it was just wonderful. I was very--I was accepted. Um, I was voted, um, the king of the, uh, of the class, when they had the king and queen, uh, voting. And, uh, so it goes to show you, you know, that, you know, people have preconceived ideas, but when you show them what you are, uh, sometimes it, uh, works out for everybody. CRANE: So was that in Sadieville or Georgetown? KRAVETZ: Georgetown. CRANE: What brought your family to Kentucky? KRAVETZ: Well, my father--when he came here about 1918--he was--he was actually in the Russian Army and, uh, his, his brother was already here. So his brother got passage for him to, um, to come to this country, and, um, he--like I said, he was in the Russian Army. I assume it was for White Russia because he worked for the czar, but--and, uh, he just, uh--(laughs)--he just left. He took the uniform off and left, and got on--got on the ship. His brother paid passage for an upper deck, but when he put all these people in they threw them all in the bottom. And he said it was very, very tough there. Some people died. There was very little food if anything, and very little water, and it was a rough trip. So, uh--and then he came into Canada. CRANE: And how&#039 ; d he end up in Kentucky? KRAVETZ: Oh. Oh, his brother had a farm in Kentucky. CRANE: And what was his brother&#039 ; s name? KRAVETZ: Robert. And, um, when my father came here he went to Kentucky. He carried a pack on his back. He went through the country there, hill country, uh, I think it was selling underwear and socks and things like that. Couldn&#039 ; t speak English. But, uh, he did that and, uh, then he got some money and he bought a farm. And, uh, so basically his brother was there, had a farm, and then my father came right in also. CRANE: So, was your Uncle Robert&#039 ; s farm also in Scott County? KRAVETZ: Yes. CRANE: And how close were the two farms? KRAVETZ: I would say a matter of three or four miles apart. CRANE: How big were they? KRAVETZ: My father&#039 ; s farm was 360 acres. Robert&#039 ; s farm, I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t know. CRANE: So what were the occupations of your parents? After he bought the farm, I assume at some point he quit peddling his wares on his back. KRAVETZ: Yeah, he quit that and then he started farming. Uh, my mother lived in Cincinnati, that&#039 ; s where he met her, although they lived in the same part of the country but they never knew each other. She was from Shutomer (??) and they were from Pušalotas, which I understand doesn&#039 ; t really exist anymore, that the Germans destroyed everything, and of course and they annihilated all the Jews. Um, my mother worked in Cincinnati for a book binder, and, uh, my father farmed. CRANE: What did he--what did he grow? Or what kind of farmer was he? KRAVETZ: Okay, it was a dairy farm, basically. It&#039 ; s hill country so you can&#039 ; t grow a lot of things on hills, but we had--we had some flatland, the bottoms, near the creek. Uh, grow a little corn down there. We had--we had at one time a twenty-five, twenty-six acre tobacco base and that was the main crop. And, uh, of course the government kept cutting back the base. Uh, but they had a--they had a guarantee of what your tobacco would sell for per pound, and if it didn&#039 ; t reach that at the auctions in Lexington, then the government would pay the difference. So, they kept cutting your base back, and, uh, at the dairy farm, like I said, a tobacco base was the main cash, cash crop. And, uh, I forget about how many cows he must have had. Probably around fifty, I imagine. We had two like dairies on, on our farm. And, uh, the milk was taken to Lexington, Sealtest bought the milk. And, uh, other than that, there wasn&#039 ; t a lot of farming. Like I said, the land was not, not real good, so we had a small corn crop down by the creek--it was flat down there--and, uh, the tobacco. And then of course they kept whittling away the tobacco until eventually there was very little of it, of the tobacco base ; that meant what you were allowed to grow. CRANE: So was this an electronic milking, or did--was this-- KRAVETZ: At first it was not. They&#039 ; d get up three in the morning, he and Bryant Wright (??), who worked with my father--for my father. Uh, they&#039 ; d get up like three in the morning and milk the cows by hand, and if you&#039 ; ve ever milked a cow by hand, uh, it&#039 ; s not an easy, easy job. So, uh, anyway, you milk them twice, twice a day ; in the morning and then late in the day, and then my father&#039 ; d get the milk and, and run it into Lexington. CRANE: On a daily basis? KRAVETZ: Yeah. Yeah, you have to. There was no refrigeration then. CRANE: Oh. KRAVETZ: But, later on, we got electric. The, uh--we had electric milkers and refrigeration. So it made life a lot easier. But the house that we lived in had no elec--there was no electricity in the area. Uh, no water, no plumbing, uh, no phone. So, it was--it was just basic life. It was--it was a tough life. CRANE: How long did it take you to get to Lexington then? KRAVETZ: Well we used to go on US-25. It&#039 ; s a two-lane highway. Um, from, from Sadieville to Lexington, about eighteen miles to Georgetown and another twelve miles to Lexington, what&#039 ; s that thirty miles? Uh, you might average thirty miles an hour in those days, so that&#039 ; s what it was. It was a seven-day-a-week job. CRANE: So it was an hour to Lexington. KRAVETZ: At least. CRANE: And an hour back? KRAVETZ: Oh, yeah. At least an hour to Lexington from Sadieville. CRANE: How did your parents&#039 ; business, the dairy farm, connect with other Jewish farmers or merchants or business, or were there other--? KRAVETZ: To my knowledge there were no other Jewish farmers in the area. Uh, most of the Jews, um, lived in Georgetown, Lexington. Uh, they were merchants for the most part, dry goods, um, that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s what most of them were. They had these small little family, uh, dry goods stores. CRANE: How would you describe your parents&#039 ; relationship to Judaism? KRAVETZ: My father was very religious. Um, he abided by the dietary laws and, um, we, um, we come--we&#039 ; d go to Cincinnati about, I don&#039 ; t know, three or four times a year, and pick up, you know, bread, um, and, um, the chickens that we raised were taken to Lexington, and there was, um, Mr. Goller, who was a shochet. A shochet is a person who is ordained to slaughter, so he would, uh, slaughter the chickens. That&#039 ; s--was our mainstay. Uh, and, uh, then we&#039 ; d take them home and pick them, and like I said, there&#039 ; s no refrigeration. You&#039 ; d get an ice box or something that would preserve, but you couldn&#039 ; t, uh, store a lot of perishable items. And, um, of course we couldn&#039 ; t buy it in the stores because it wasn&#039 ; t, wasn&#039 ; t a kosher product. So, uh, that&#039 ; s just all part of life. CRANE: What was it like watching, or--Mr. Goller kill your chickens? KRAVETZ: (laughs) That&#039 ; s a tough term you got there. Um, it--um, it was--it was tough to see how life is, you know, even for an animal. And, um, it&#039 ; s supposed to be humane, but, you know, it&#039 ; s, uh, the procedure is quite grotesque, as all slaughter is. So it&#039 ; s not just kosher slaughter, it&#039 ; s all ----------(??). That&#039 ; s why you have a great deal of vegetarians now ; because they don&#039 ; t like the, the way animals are, are kept, and of course slaughtered. CRANE: So what did he do? KRAVETZ: I didn&#039 ; t know you wanted to know all of that. Well, he had a ritual knife that--kept in a box. CRANE: --oh-- KRAVETZ: And, uh, he would say a prayer before he slit the throat of the chicken. Uh, you--he would bend the head back and slit the throat, and then the legs would be tied. And there was a barrel in the garage and you put the broom handle through the legs and let the chicken lay--hang in there until it perished. Some of them lived a long time. CRANE: Even after they slit? KRAVETZ: Um-hm. CRANE: Oh wow. So the slitting of the throat didn&#039 ; t automatically kill the-- KRAVETZ: Well, def--definitely--yeah, yeah, not necessarily all of them, but you--the kosher procedure is that you--that you do not drink blood. You do not eat the blood or drink the blood. That&#039 ; s why the throat is slit and then the chicken is hung in a barrel until it, you know, expires, and drains. CRANE: What was Judaism in your home like growing up? KRAVETZ: Well, my parents were basically Orthodox so it was--it was a very, um, oh, I don&#039 ; t know, a lot of the kids went out on Friday nights and Saturdays and we weren&#039 ; t--and we didn&#039 ; t, because it&#039 ; s a--it&#039 ; s, you know, it&#039 ; s the Sabbath. So, it was just a little strict, but it was okay. You--you grew up that way. CRANE: How did your family celebrate the Jewish holidays and Shabbat when you were young? KRAVETZ: Oh, the Jewish holidays we came to Cincinnati, and, uh, we would stay here during the holidays, and, um, then we would go back home. Uh, that was a trip to come to Cincinnati, &#039 ; cause here again, it was US-25, and that was a two-lane highway and it took half a day to get here. So it wasn&#039 ; t a pleasant trip. CRANE: So-- KRAVETZ: And we, uh, we had a pick-up truck. We never did have a car on the farm, so, uh, there was five of us ; three, three children, a mother and father. So I usually sat in the back of the truck and, uh, the girls and my parents sat in the front. And, uh, it was a different kind of a trip from, from now--from how things are now. CRANE: So, for the holidays you all went to Cincinnati instead of coming to Lexington? KRAVETZ: Yeah. Yeah. CRANE: Did your family have any affiliation with the synagogue in Lexington? KRAVETZ: I was bar mitzvahed there when I was thirteen. Uh, that&#039 ; s--as far as I know, that&#039 ; s the only affiliation. CRANE: Where did you go to Hebrew school and Sunday school? KRAVETZ: My father taught me my bar mitzvah, and, uh, I didn&#039 ; t go to any, any schools. CRANE: On the Ohavay Zion Synagogue Web site, there&#039 ; s a list of founders, and among those listed are several Kravetzes. KRAVETZ: Okay. CRANE: There&#039 ; s a B. Kravetz, a Beryl Kravetz, a Lewis Kravetz (??), and N. Kravetz, and a Robert Kravetz. Are you related to any of these men, and-- KRAVETZ: Robert Kravetz. CRANE: Was your uncle? KRAVETZ: Uncle. Right. CRANE: Okay. And N. Kravetz? KRAVETZ: I--I--I doesn&#039 ; t ring a bell. CRANE: Was your grandfather&#039 ; s--a Nathan Kravetz? KRAVETZ: Nathan, yes. CRANE: But did he ever come to America? KRAVETZ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. CRANE: Okay. So that could have been Nathan Kravetz? KRAVETZ: I don&#039 ; t--it could have been, but to my knowledge, uh, they--they land--they landed in Cincinnati. CRANE: Okay. KRAVETZ: And I see no reason why they would have gone to Lexington. CRANE: Okay. KRAVETZ: But, you know, I don&#039 ; t know. Possibly. CRANE: How did living in Scott County, Georgetown, affect your family&#039 ; s affiliation with the Jewish communities in either Lexington or Cincinnati? KRAVETZ: I don&#039 ; t think there&#039 ; s any real, uh, affiliation, other than--there&#039 ; re no synagogues there or any religious, uh, organization. You know, there&#039 ; s really nothing in--in Georgetown that we--all the religious, uh, affiliation was in Cincinnati. We had family here, and, uh-- CRANE: And did you have family in central Kentucky, and how were you related to the families in central Kentucky? KRAVETZ: Okay. We had, uh, Steinbergs, which you&#039 ; re-- CRANE: Right. KRAVETZ: --part of. See, the Greens in Winchester, uh, the Levys in Lexington. I&#039 ; m thinking. I really don&#039 ; t know for sure where they lived, but I think that was--that was the extent of the families that we were with. CRANE: Okay. In my research on you, I found that--what I believe is a picture of you from 1950 at Garth High School in Scott County. KRAVETZ: That&#039 ; s right. CRANE: That is where you went to high school? KRAVETZ: Yes. CRANE: Okay. What was it like as a Jew growing up and attending school in what was, at that time, rural Kentucky? KRAVETZ: Well, like I said, uh, my first experience at, at --in school at Garth was not real pleasant because, uh, I was a Jew and, uh, everyone knew it. But you know, after, after people or students or kids saw what we were--my sisters went there. Faye and Shanee went there, and I did, and after, after about I guess the third or fourth grade, everything was perfect. There was not a problem. But initially there were big problems. The, uh--the older people thought the Jews had horns and things of that nature. When they--(laughs)--when they saw that we didn&#039 ; t, then things got better. CRANE: When did your family move to Cincinnati? KRAVETZ: Hmm, let me get my paper here and we&#039 ; ll see. Um, let&#039 ; s see it was seventeenth, eighteen-- CRANE: You graduated from high school in Scott County, right? KRAVETZ: No. I graduated, um, my last two years--my junior and senior year, um, we were in Cincinnati and I graduated from Hughes High. CRANE: Okay. What did your family teach you about Judaism, and how did what you learned in growing up Jewish impact the choices you made in life? KRAVETZ: Well, growing up in--in a--in a very rural area, uh, you soon learn that, you know, you&#039 ; re, you&#039 ; re different, and, uh, you, you have different beliefs, and, um, being a Jew is good. Uh, I wouldn&#039 ; t have it any other way. But still, you know, other religions are fine, too, but, uh, this is the one for me. But I&#039 ; ve found that--or, we have found that--Christians is who we grew up with. They&#039 ; re fine, fine people. Uh, in Georgetown where we lived, our neighbors were the best people in the world. Uh, they&#039 ; re--it was just a very close-knit community, being Jew or not, you know, after the initial breaking-in period. And, uh, we, we enjoyed--like I said, my mother says it&#039 ; s the best years of her life when she was on the farm, and she was a country girl. And our farm was very, uh, very, very basic. CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual growing up? KRAVETZ: Well, when, when you&#039 ; re thirteen you become bar mitzvahed or a man, and, uh, my--we--my father was a very religious man. He knew, uh, the Jewish religion quite well, and he, he taught me, uh, my bar mitzvah and, uh, we had no other way to go as far as learning anything, but, um, he was very well versed in Judaism. A very, very gentle man and a very good man. CRANE: What was your bar mitzvah like? KRAVETZ: I remember it was on, uh, Maxwell Street where the synagogue was. Now I think it&#039 ; s a restaurant or something. I don&#039 ; t know. But anyhow, um, we, uh, you know, the Jewish community in Lexington was, was there, and, uh, you have to have a new suit, which I had. It was a blue herringbone wool. It had to be wool, otherwise it wasn&#039 ; t satisfactory. And that thing was a monster. In those days wool was wool and it would eat you up. So anyhow, um--and then my mother and I think your mother and one or two other people, we would have, um, a get-together after the bar mitzvah, and, uh, the mainstay was corned beef sandwiches. That&#039 ; s what everybody enjoyed because they were so hard to get. So, it was basically corned beef sandwiches, strudel, and, uh, RC Cola and things like that. CRANE: And did you lead the whole service or did you just do-- KRAVETZ: No. I just did what we call the haftarah--the maftir, the haftarah. Nowadays the kids do the whole thing. Most of them do-- CRANE: Do you remember what your haftarah was? KRAVETZ: ----------(??) CRANE: I can always ask you to do a few lines. KRAVETZ: (laughs) Are you kidding? When that day was over, then that was it. CRANE: Before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else unique--that you would like to share, or that we should know, about your family background or your childhood years? Stories that your parents told you, um-- KRAVETZ: Well, the, the stories that my, my father had and my mother&#039 ; s told is from the old country, and they weren&#039 ; t nice stories. They were--I know years later I&#039 ; d ask my father, &quot ; Do you speak Russian?&quot ; He said, &quot ; No.&quot ; He said because the shtetl--was the place where, where the people lived--they weren&#039 ; t allowed out at night, and they would come and lock them in and they had very little--they had gates that they closed up and the Jews were all, so to speak, locked in for the night. They had very little, uh, association with the--with the Lithuanians or the Russians, at that time, and, uh, they spoke Yiddish. And all the Jews spoke Yiddish. Most of them didn&#039 ; t know--knew very little or any Russian, although that was the language, and, um, they had--they had their conversations in Yiddish, which is a, a dying language, but it&#039 ; s a great language. It&#039 ; s a language of all different countries that Jews were in, and, uh-- CRANE: Do you speak, uh, Yiddish? KRAVETZ: Some, yeah. Do you? Yeah, it&#039 ; s-- CRANE: --I only know the bad words. KRAVETZ: Oh, well those are easy ones. Oh, yeah, yeah. Reenie, my wife, she speaks Yiddish. Like I said, it&#039 ; s too bad, it&#039 ; s just a dying language. It&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s a great language. CRANE: Okay. Let&#039 ; s move on to the University of Kentucky. I know that you went to the University of Kentucky. KRAVETZ: Yes. CRANE: What years were you there, and why did you choose U.K.? KRAVETZ: Well, the reason I chose U.K. is that, uh, we had property in Kentucky and, uh, I just wanted to go and, uh, I knew more people in Kentucky than I did here. I was only here for two years and I didn&#039 ; t know a lot of people. And, uh, I just liked it there. I still do. CRANE: What years were you there? KRAVETZ: God, I&#039 ; m trying to think. Um, I went there 1950--I think 1950, I believe. CRANE: Okay. Describe your living accommodations while you were at U.K. KRAVETZ: Okay. Uh, when I first went there, I lived in the--what they call the barracks. It was, um--used to be army barracks at one time. And, uh, I lived there. It was on--I can&#039 ; t think of the street, but they had the tobacco warehouses right across the street from where the barracks were, that we lived, and that&#039 ; s where they held the tobacco auctions. Every, every fall the big tobacco companies would come in and bid on your tobacco. Then after, after a year or so of that, I went to live with my--with my aunt--uh, cousin, Martha Steinberg on Fontana Avenue, and, uh, that was, uh, a great time in my life to live there. CRANE: It was at that. Tell me about your social life as a college student. KRAVETZ: Um, I had very little social life, uh, as, as a student at the university. I--I worked after school and, uh-- CRANE: Where did you work, Stanley? KRAVETZ: I worked for your father, uh, Irving Steinberg, in the jewelry store. CRANE: Oh. KRAVETZ: And, uh, that was great. A great man. Irving Steinberg, a tiny jewelry store, and it was a great place. And that&#039 ; s where I spent my time when I wasn&#039 ; t in school and I enjoyed it immensely. CRANE: Describe any involvement you had with the Jewish organizations on campus such as a Jewish fraternity or Hillel. KRAVETZ: Uh, I don&#039 ; t know (??). Hillel was very active when I was there. I don&#039 ; t remember it anyway. But, uh, Sidney Steinberg was instrumental in getting an organization together for the Jewish kids and I participated in that, and I don&#039 ; t remember exactly now what it was called, but, uh, Sidney started an organization there for Jewish kids. CRANE: Sidney did? KRAVETZ: Um-hm. CRANE: According to the Z.B.T. list, it says you were a 1954 pledge of the Z.B.T. class. Is that possible? KRAVETZ: Well, I won&#039 ; t contradict it but I don&#039 ; t recall it. CRANE: Is it possible there&#039 ; s another Stanley Kravetz? KRAVETZ: No. No, that&#039 ; s not possible. CRANE: It was, um--in your Z.B.T. class, it included Billy Golton (??) and Jack Miller. Those are two names that I knew of. KRAVETZ: I don&#039 ; t recall. It&#039 ; s been a long time. I don&#039 ; t know. (laughs) CRANE: So what was the organization that my brother got you involved in? KRAVETZ: Well, it wasn&#039 ; t a fraternity or anything, it&#039 ; s just that it was an alternative to what was available. Uh, I assume Z.B.T. was. I don&#039 ; t know--I don&#039 ; t know if there&#039 ; s any other one. It was just a--a group, and, uh, and we just, um, you know, got together. It was just, uh, like a friend thing. CRANE: Where did you all gather? KRAVETZ: As far as I can remember, at the--oh, the big building there where--the union--was it a union? Was it called that then? CRANE: The student union? KRAVETZ: The student union. Was that--I don&#039 ; t know if it was called that, but that&#039 ; s what it was. It was just a communal, uh, building. CRANE: And these were other Jewish students? KRAVETZ: Yeah. Yeah. CRANE: And what kinds of things did you do? KRAVETZ: Well, it disbanded after about a year, so, uh, we really didn&#039 ; t do much of anything. It never really got off the ground. CRANE: Did you--do you remember anybody else that you were in it with? KRAVETZ: No, just, just Sidney. CRANE: Just the two of you. KRAVETZ: It was an organization of two. But th--there were others, but I, I just don&#039 ; t recall. CRANE: Do you remember Billy Golton? KRAVETZ: Yeah, I remember the name. CRANE: Do you remember him on campus? KRAVETZ: Not really. I went to agriculture and there weren&#039 ; t any Jews in it--the College of Agriculture. CRANE: Is that because you came from the farming community? KRAVETZ: Yeah. I thought at one time that I would continue, uh, the farming, but, um, it wasn&#039 ; t for me. CRANE: What were Jewish holidays like when you were on--at the university? How did you celebrate holidays? KRAVETZ: Well of course, you know, going back, back home, uh, my parents lived in Cincinnati, so I would, uh, I&#039 ; d go back to Cincinnati to celebrate. CRANE: So did you date Jewish girls on campus, and if so, how did you meet them? KRAVETZ: I don&#039 ; t know of any. (laughs) There were very few Jews there. I didn&#039 ; t know of any. I had a sweetheart here. CRANE: In Cincinnati? KRAVETZ: Yeah, CRANE: I see. KRAVETZ: Which I married. CRANE: Describe a day in your life as a college student ; what did you do, where did you go? KRAVETZ: Well, I went to classes, of course. That&#039 ; s what you&#039 ; re there for. And, um, that took up most of the day. And like I said, generally after school or on the weekends I would--I would go to work at the, uh, the jewelry store. So, that was my life with just the classes and then, uh, working. CRANE: Did you continue to keep kosher? KRAVETZ: Oh yes. Yes, definitely. Even-- CRANE: And-- KRAVETZ: --when I was in the military. CRANE: When were you in the military? KRAVETZ: Sixty--six--1960? Oh yeah, we, uh--I was, uh--and my son, Scott, also. He was in the military--not at that time, of course, but--and, um, he kept kosher. There were kosher meals available to him at that time. Uh, they had what they call M.R.E.s ; Meals Ready to Eat, and, uh, you could get them then. When I was in, you know, they basically would give you milk and ice cream, all you could eat. Bread, potatoes. So I had plenty to eat. CRANE: Describe the climate on campus when you were there for Jews becoming members of non-Jewish fraternities. KRAVETZ: To my knowledge, none of that existed. I don&#039 ; t think--there were that--there weren&#039 ; t that many Jews, I don&#039 ; t think, that attended then, and if there were, I don&#039 ; t know of anyone pledging non-Jewish fraternities. I mean, I don&#039 ; t know of that. CRANE: Were there any Jewish sororities on campus? That you&#039 ; re aware of? KRAVETZ: Not that I can recall, no. Nope. Like I--the Jewish population, at that time, I don&#039 ; t think was very strong. CRANE: Did--as, um, a Jewish student on campus, did you have a connection with the comm--the larger Lexington Jewish community? Did you go to services there, um, on Maxwell Street at the synagogue? KRAVETZ: Yeah, I did. I did occasionally. Occasionally I would go to the synagogue on Maxwell Street. CRANE: How did your time at U.K. impact your Jewish identity? KRAVETZ: I don&#039 ; t think it had a lot to do with, uh, with my identity as a Jew, going to the school. Uh, I don&#039 ; t--I don&#039 ; t think it had any real impact. I met a lot of non-Jewish--I had a lot of non-Jewish friends at school, but eh, it didn&#039 ; t really have any impact. CRANE: So what was your life after college? KRAVETZ: Well, I went to--I went into the army, uh, and then after that I, uh, got married. And, uh, at that time, uh, my wife was a school teacher and I had a couple of optical shops in the area, Cincinnati area. I was an optician. I had a Kentucky license, which was very rare in those days ; there weren&#039 ; t many Kentucky opticians. But all those were licensed occupations. And, um, you know, just extended from, from that. CRANE: What was Judaism in your home like as an adult or parent? KRAVETZ: We kept kosher. Uh, we weren&#039 ; t Orthodox. I did not really, um, like or agree with the Orthodox way. But we kept kosher. My wife lit candles on Friday night, and, uh, we went to a lot of Jewish organization little things. So, you know, everything except for the, uh, extreme Orthodox, which we didn&#039 ; t do. CRANE: How was your practicing Judaism different than that of your parents? KRAVETZ: Well, my parents were Orthodox and I--Orthodox just wasn&#039 ; t for me. I wasn&#039 ; t that strict. So, it was quite different. It was quite different. When I got out on my own, I, uh--like I said, we kept--we kept the holidays, we kept, uh, kosher in the house, and even going out ; we didn&#039 ; t eat meat or anything of that nature. So, you know, it was, uh--we were, you know, Jewish without a doubt, but just not Orthodox, not to the, uh, to the extent of being an Orthodox Jew. CRANE: What are some of the examples of the--of how your parents were that you weren&#039 ; t in Orthodoxy? KRAVETZ: Okay. My parents--and of course I lived with them--we didn&#039 ; t--we didn&#039 ; t drive on Friday night or Saturday, and, uh, we didn&#039 ; t turn lights off and on. My mother would leave a small light on--on the gas range or stove to warm things up for Saturday. Um, we, uh, didn&#039 ; t go anywhere except to the synagogue. We used to go to the synagogue, and of course Jewish friends would come over every Saturday. We had a lot of Jewish friends and family that would stop in, in the house, and my mother always had a lot of stuff prepared. And other than that, you know, we--I observed all of that except for the fact of not going anywhere on Friday night or Saturday. Um-- CRANE: As a parent, what were the holidays like in your home for your children? KRAVETZ: As me being a parent? CRANE: Um-hm. How did you celebrate the holidays? KRAVETZ: Well, we celebrated the holidays. You--I didn&#039 ; t have a strict code or anything. Uh, we celebrated them ; we went to synagogue and we ate the traditional, uh, Jewish things on those holidays. And, uh, it was good. It was very joyous, you know, it just wasn&#039 ; t real strict. CRANE: How has your Judaism changed over time? KRAVETZ: Well, I guess I&#039 ; m not as--not quite as religious as I used to be, uh, only in the sense of going to the synagogue on Friday night and Saturday. That&#039 ; s very occasional now ; I don&#039 ; t do that all the time. We do go for the holidays. We observe the holidays and go to the synagogue for those and belong to a synagogue. But, uh, it hasn&#039 ; t gotten stronger--it really hasn&#039 ; t gotten any weaker, but, uh, I just don&#039 ; t believe as deeply as I did. Uh, things have happened in my life that, uh, makes you think about, uh, about life and of course religion enters into that. You know, the fact that six million Jews were exterminated in the thirties and forties, it--it makes--it makes you question, regardless of what religion you are, it just makes you question your faith in hum--you know, in religion. But, I&#039 ; m still religious and I will be until the curtain comes down. CRANE: How do you feel about Zionism? What role does Israel have in your life? KRAVETZ: Um, I&#039 ; m very, very strong for Israel. Um, as my father said, uh, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t ever think that it can&#039 ; t happen here.&quot ; He was referring to the Holocaust. He, uh, he felt very strongly because he came from a country where they would periodically come through and kill you, burn your house and, and, and kill you, in Lithuania and all parts of Russia if you were Jewish. So, uh, I feel very strong about Israel. I--we contribute and, uh, it--to me, it&#039 ; s the last resort. If things happen to the Jews, as, as--if, if you read the papers, uh, the, the French Jews are leaving France and going to Israel. Where else is there to go? And that will be the same for us. Uh, if things change, uh, where else is there to go? So, better hold on and help Israel as much as you possibly can because that&#039 ; s the last resort that you have. Period. CRANE: Have you been there? KRAVETZ: No. My kids have all gone. I go through them. I&#039 ; m not a traveler. I, uh, I don&#039 ; t fly, and, uh, had a bad experience, so I haven&#039 ; t flown in, I don&#039 ; t know, thirty years I guess. But my kids have all gone. My grandson has been there three times. And I live through them. CRANE: Stanley, tell me about these two pictures that you have. KRAVETZ: That&#039 ; s my father, Isaac Kravetz. That was taken when he was in the Russian army. As you can see, he&#039 ; s in uniform. This is a painting from an old picture that he had. Uh, he was, uh--he was in--in the, uh, in the Russian army. That was, uh, I don&#039 ; t know, maybe 1917, 19-something in that--in that era. And, uh, this is my grandfather. Very handsome man. You need more light or something? CRANE: Probably less light. I&#039 ; m trying-- KRAVETZ: Well we can get over there, if you want. There&#039 ; s more light there. CRANE: That&#039 ; s okay. KRAVETZ: This is Nathan Kravetz, my grandfather. CRANE: Oh wow. KRAVETZ: That was taken in Russia. He was a very handsome man. He was, uh, the blacksmith. CRANE: Wow. KRAVETZ: Um, do you want to -----------(??)? CRANE: Well, Stanley, this has been wonderful. And, before we close, I want--I took a picture of your tzitzit? Is that what you call them? KRAVETZ: Tzitzit, yeah. CRANE: Tzitzit. Will you just tell me what that was and when you wore it. It&#039 ; s a little--looks like a little boy&#039 ; s-- KRAVETZ: Yeah, well when I was very young. (laughs) I couldn&#039 ; t get my arm in it now. But, it&#039 ; s something that you wore all the time. It hung out of your clothes. The tzitzit, the, uh, the strings would hang out, and, uh, Orthodox Jews still--they all wear that, but, uh, of course when I grew out of it I never got another one, so--but it&#039 ; s something--it&#039 ; s a--it&#039 ; s a ritual thing that you wear, that--you wear it all the time. CRANE: And did you wear this when you went to school? KRAVETZ: No. CRANE: In Scott County? You didn&#039 ; t have to wear it to go to school? KRAVETZ: No. This was on the farm when I was little. No, no. (laughs) That&#039 ; s all I needed at the time. CRANE: Okay. Thank you, so much, Stanley. This has been great. KRAVETZ: Okay. Thank you. It was a pleasure. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. audio Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh394_jk031_kravetz_ohm.xml 2016oh394_jk031_kravetz_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh394_jk031_kravetz_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stanley Kravetz, September 20, 2016 Description An account of the resource Stanley Kravetz was born in Georgetown, Kentucky on March 4, 1934. Both his mother and father were born in Lithuania and immigrated to the United States as refugees. Kravetz discusses his grandparents’ lives, his experiences growing up in rural Kentucky, as well as how his family came to Kentucky. Next Kravetz explains what Judaism was like growing up, explaining how his parents were Orthodox and how they celebrated holidays. Then Kravetz discusses his relationship to Judaism when living in rural Kentucky and going to school as a Jewish boy. Furthermore, he goes on to describe his memories from childhood, and family ties in Cincinnati, Lexington, and Georgetown. Kravetz briefly describes a story of his father when he lived in a Russian shtetl and only spoke Yiddish. He then shifts to the University of Kentucky and his daily life as a college student during the 1950s. Next he discusses his involvement with Jewish organizations, such as Zeta Beta Tau and Hillel at U.K. as well as his involvement in the Lexington community while he was a student at UK. Kravetz then discusses life after college, including his involvement in the army and later his career as an optician. Moreover Kravetz discusses practicing non-orthodox Judaism as a parent and an adult, which was different from what he was accustomed to in his early life. Kravetz briefly discusses his strong feelings about Israel and how he perceives it as a “ last resort” for Jewish people in the event that another Holocaust were to happen. Finally, Kravetz describes pictures from the past of himself, his father, and his grandfather. The interview concludes with Mr. Kravetz graciously thanking the interviewer. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh394_jk031 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/103326a1302bbdd2892d73204908a843.jpg 7051b28ff098ccd9200c0f302faa0707 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice W. Fernheimer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anne Edelstein Shapira Interview Keyword Jewish Hospital African Americans--Employment. African Americans--Social conditions. Race relations--Kentucky Citizenship. Immigrants Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Dietitians. Hospitals--Employees OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh260_jk030 Interview with Anne Edelstein Shapira, July 25, 2016 2016oh260_jk030 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Louisville (Ky.) Jewish families. Bardstown (Ky.) Danville (Ky.) Harrodsburg (Ky.) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jews--Identity. Religion Judaism. Worship (Judaism) Bourbon whiskey Distilleries--Kentucky Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish leadership--Kentucky Jewish women--Kentucky Jewish Hospital African Americans--Employment. African Americans--Social conditions. Race relations--Kentucky Citizenship. Immigrants Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Dietitians. Hospitals--Employees Anne Edelstein Shapira Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|10(8)|25(1)|46(2)|85(2)|99(9)|116(1)|135(7)|151(5)|162(6)|181(8)|189(17)|208(3)|232(8)|248(1)|259(4)|269(3)|285(5)|305(1)|312(13)|334(2)|354(14)|379(2)|410(18)|427(1)|441(4)|472(1)|484(4)|496(12)|504(4)|532(11)|543(3)|556(14)|568(10)|580(1)|604(3)|627(1)|651(8)|664(7)|698(11)|716(4)|731(1)|755(4)|781(1)|798(8)|825(11)|843(7)|850(4)|876(4)|885(1)|898(1)|914(1)|921(13)|930(14)|951(10)|975(3)|996(6)|1006(12)|1031(5)|1053(3)|1086(6)|1105(10)|1115(11)|1130(8)|1156(9)|1184(9)|1199(10)|1210(8)|1228(3)|1241(12)|1258(7)|1265(13)|1278(1)|1298(5)|1309(6)|1319(1)|1331(5)|1373(11)|1383(13)|1401(13)|1409(8)|1426(11)|1444(9)|1475(4)|1513(7)|1530(7)|1540(9)|1557(14)|1577(8)|1593(2)|1605(11)|1620(1)|1635(3)|1649(8)|1676(8)|1686(4)|1707(6)|1723(5)|1754(6)|1773(7)|1787(2)|1799(15)|1810(5)|1821(10)|1843(1)|1853(9)|1862(3)|1877(6)|1894(13)|1916(11)|1933(4)|1943(8)|1951(4)|1977(6)|2008(2)|2026(13)|2032(9)|2040(13)|2056(8)|2064(13)|2079(2)|2087(6)|2100(2)|2106(9)|2127(14) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253341369&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Interview introduction and family background My name is Janice Fernheimer. Shapira was born in Ottawa, Canada on March 23, 1914. Her parents were born in Manchester, England. They migrated to Canada in 1910 and her father opened a tailoring store. Her mother, Mildred Hollander, was born in 1896. Shapira has one younger sister, Freida Horen, who now lives in Sarasota, Florida. Anne Edelstein Shapira ; Canada ; Dublin (Ireland) ; Freida Horen ; Manchester (England) ; Mildred Hollander ; Ottawa (Canada) ; Tailors Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Immigrants 45.416667, -75.683333 17 Ottawa (Canada) 233 Visiting Louisville, Kentucky in 1935 Let's go back a bit. I had an aunt, my mother's sister. Shapira came to visit her Aunt Rachel in Louisville in 1935. While she was there she met David, who would later become her husband in 1938. Shapira finished her studies at McGill University in 1934 and did postgraduate work at Montreal General Hospital, where she obtained her masters. David Shapira ; Gary Shapira ; McGill University ; Montreal General Hospital ; Rachel Hollander ; Rachel Shapira Education ; Higher education ; Louisville (Ky.) 45.504167, -73.574722 17 McGill University, Montreal (Canada) http://www.mcgill.ca/ McGill University in Montreal, Canada 446 Jewish Hospital--Job offer and daily work Now you asked me--what was the question you just asked me? In 1935, Shapira's future mother-in-law grew ill and her doctor, Dr. David Cohen, came to the house. While he was visiting, he learned that Shapira was a dietitian and offered her a position at Jewish Hospital. Shapira had no green card, but the hospital took care of that, and she received the position at the hospital. Shapira describes how she was treated very well at Jewish Hospital and was in a very respected position. She tended to the private patients and took their food orders every day. All the meals were Kosher. She lived in a small house next to the hospital with the head nurse and several other women ; about five or six women stayed in that house. Shapira earned about $100 a month for working from seven in the morning to seven at night with a two hour break in the evening. She saw about five or six patients each day. Shapira was also driven to the market each morning by an African American man to purchase food for the private patients. She also recounts how the maternity ward was extremely well-known. Canada ; Dr. David Cohen ; Jewish Hospital ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; Markets ; McGill University ; Ms. Hughes ; Private patients ; Race relations Dietitians. ; Hospitals--Employees ; Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care--Kentucky 38.2490, -85.7513 17 Jewish Hospital, Louisville (Ky.) 1056 Jewish Hospital--Ms. Hughes Tell me a little bit about Ms. Hughes. Ms. Hughes was the head of the nurses. Shapira describes her as a tall, straight, and typical Englishwoman. She was very stern and you had to approve all your plans with her. Many of the nurses had problems with Ms. Hughes because she held herself above the other nurses. Shapira describes how many Jewish women did not go into nursing because it was not seen as a career. Attitudes ; Careers ; Head nurses ; Jobs ; Ms. Hughes ; Personality ; Work Hospitals--Employees ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care--Kentucky 17 1192 Family's reaction to her move to Louisville Um, so, you worked there for two years? Shapira worked at Jewish Hospital for about two years. She describes how her family was very happy for her because she took the job at Jewish Hospital in order to be courted by and eventually marry her future husband. She also talks about how they talked on the phone every Friday night. David Shapira ; Jewish Hospital ; Ms. Hughes ; Ottawa (Canada) Families. ; Hospitals--Employees ; Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Marriage 38.2527, -85.7585 17 Louisville (Ky.) 1362 Jewish Hospital--A typical day Um, so that wasn't your typical day. Shapira describes a typical day at the hospital. She would get up early in the morning and go get food from the market. She would make her menus for the following day so she would know what to buy the next day. Shapira would give the chef the food and let him cook the meals. She was driven to the market every morning by a black man and she talks about how she assumed this was normal. She also mentions how there were several black people who cooked and cleaned for the hospital. Jewish Hospital ; Race relations ; Relations with African Americans African Americans--Employment. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Dietitians. ; Hospitals--Employees ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care--Kentucky ; Race relations--Kentucky 17 1554 Awareness of World War II / Becoming a U.S. citizen Um, during that time, that was before World War II, but after the Nuremberg Laws had been passed in Germany. To what degree did you or any of your patients have a sense of what was happening in Germany at the time? Shapira describes how there wasn't any animosity in the hospital and that none of the German immigrants showed her any ill will. As a Canadian, Shapira states that she had very little awareness of U.S. politics. She then recounts how she became a U.S. citizen. She went in front of Judge Ford and he asked her about what she would do if the U.S. and Canada went to war and her brother was fighting for Canada. She replied that she didn't have a brother. Shapira worked at Jewish Hospital for two years and was treated with respect. She never had any issues with Ms. Hughes or anyone else. Germany ; Jewish Hospital ; Judge Ford ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Maternity wards ; Ms. Hughes ; Nuremberg Laws ; Ottawa (Canada) ; Ottawa, Canada Citizenship. ; Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Immigrants ; World War, 1939-1945 38.0406, -84.5037 17 Lexington (Ky.) 1863 Weekly Shapira family meetings Um, I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about that first meeting with David. Shapira's Aunt Rachel lived in the same house as her mother-in-law and every weekend David and his brothers would come to visit her. She describes David as sharply dressed with dimples and black curly hair. She gradually got to know him when he visited his mother every weekend. Every Saturday night the brothers would sit down and have a meeting with their mother. Bardstown, Kentucky ; Danville, Kentucky ; David Shapira ; Elizabethtown, Kentucky ; Harrodsburg, Kentucky ; Rachel Hollander ; Rachel Shapira Bardstown (Ky.) ; Danville (Ky.) ; Elizabethtown (Ky.) ; Families. ; Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Jewish families. 38.228869, -85.756055 17 The Shapira family house 2044 Shapira family history How, how did she, how did she wield such influence? Annie Shapira is Anne Edelstein Shapira's mother-in-law. Annie's husband died very young. Annie Shapira had to manage the store and take care of five children. Gary Shapira had to quit school in order to help Annie with the store. Annie ran the store until she moved to Louisville in about 1934. Gary fell in love with Rachel Hollander and they bought a house in Louisville. He furnished the house and then he brought Rachel to Louisville. Annie Shapira ; Gary Shapira ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mother-in-laws ; Ottawa (Canada) ; Ottawa, Canada ; Rachel Hollander ; Rachel Shapira ; Springfield (Ky.) ; Springfield, Kentucky Families. ; Family histories. ; Genealogy ; Jewish families. 37.6853, -85.2222 17 Springfield (Ky.) 2279 Courtship with David Shapira So, after you met him, you corresponded by telephone. Anne and David talked on the phone weekly and sent letters during their courtship. Anne was dating someone else and one day she received a call from David saying he was coming to visit her. Anne had a date to go tea dancing and had to cancel in order to accommodate David. David Shapira ; Foxtrot (Dance) ; Hy Leslie ; Jewish Hospital ; Jitterbug (Dance) ; Ottawa (Canada) ; Ottawa, Canada ; Tea dancing ; Toronto (Canada) ; Toronto, Canada ; Waltz (Dance) Dance. ; Dating (Social customs) 43.6532, -79.3832 17 Toronto (Canada) 2585 Stores in Harrodsburg, Kentucky A couple of things I could mention, I guess I should. Shapira talks about a Jewish orphanage on First Street. The orphanage would take care of the immigrants' babies. David ran the Louisville Store and the Lincoln Store in Harrodsburg, Kentucky. The farmers mainly shopped on Saturdays in both stores. The Lincoln Store had a beauty shop above it and the ladies would get their hair done at the store. Anne would work on Saturdays selling cosmetics and other assorted goods. One time a woman came in looking for an outing coat and Anne tried to sell her outing cloth. Danville (Ky.) ; Danville, Kentucky ; David Shapira ; Germany ; Harrodsburg, Kentucky ; Immigrating ; Jewish orphanages ; Lincoln Store ; Louisville Store ; Pogroms ; Russia Entrepreneurship ; Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Immigrants ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 37.7623, -84.8433 17 Harrodsburg (Ky.) 3022 Being Jewish in Harrodsburg What was it like being a Jewish family in Springfield? Shapira was treated with respect by the people of Harrodsburg and was a part of a women's club in Harrodsburg, Kentucky. David and Anne also lived at the Beaumont Inn for two years. Every Sunday Anne and David would go to a church ice cream social in order to socialize with their customers. They went to a different church every Sunday. They were also invited to church weddings. There was one other Jewish family in Harrodsburg and they ran the bank. Originally, it was just a women named Hattie Abrams, but then she got married to a shoe salesman from New York who helped her manage the bank. Anne and her family were very well-respected in Harrodsburg. Beaumont Inn ; Harrodsburg, Kentucky ; Hattie Abrams ; Women's Club Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Entrepreneurship ; Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 3322 Sabbath at the Brown Hotel What about holidays? What did you, what did you do for the holidays? Anne and David went to Louisville every Sunday night to go to dinner at the Brown Hotel with the other Shapira brothers. They served delicious food and Anne claims the dishes that stood out the most was the fried chicken and the roast beef. Annie Shapira ; Brown Hotel ; David Shapira ; Eddie Shapira ; Gary Shapira ; George Shapira ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Miriam Shapira ; Mother-in-laws ; Rachel Shapira ; Ruth Shapira ; Sabbath Families. ; Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.246325, -85.757958 17 Brown Hotel, Louisville (Ky.) 3492 Mother-in-law, Annie Shapira Well, my-mother-in-law, whatever her sons liked, she cooked. Annie Shapira cooked whatever her sons liked. She was five feet tall, wore her hair in a bun, and she had a lazy eye. One day when Anne was helping Annie cook, Annie asked her to get a blue box of noodles from the pantry. Anne grabbed the first blue box she found and dumped it into the pot of water. It turned out the box was full of soap. It was kosher soap and anything that was kosher came in a blue box. Anne says they all kept kosher. They kept kosher by driving to Louisville every Sunday to go to the kosher deli. It took about two hours to get from Harrodsburg to Louisville. Annie Shapira ; David Shapira ; Harrodsburg, Kentucky ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kosher delis ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mother-in-laws Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 3882 Heaven Hill Distillery--Early involvement So, how long were you involved with the business in Harrodsburg? Shapira says she was not very involved in the business. She occasionally gave tours to people. The office of Heaven Hill Distillery was the size of a garage. In the beginning, Eddie Shapira was mainly running the distillery while the other brothers ran the different stores. The bourbon was originally made in Louisville then trucked out to Bardstown to be put in barrels. The bourbon was made in a big barrel that had wheat and rye soaking in water. Bardstown, Kentucky ; Barrels ; David Shapira ; Harrodsburg, Kentucky ; Heaven Hill Distillery ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Rye ; Wheat Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Entrepreneurship ; Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 37.8092, -85.4669 17 Bardstown (Ky.) 4262 Heaven Hill Distillery--Making bourbon and opening the distillery I could go on a long time about the process. A huge barrel was filled with water, wheat, and rye and then aged for forty-eight hours. After that it was sent to Bardstown to be put into barrels and aged for two years or more. Annie was not really involved in the distillery. The boys opened the distillery when the bank came to them and asked if they would be willing to open it up with a man named Charlie DeSpain. They each pitched in money and the Heaven Hill Distillery was opened. Annie Shapira ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Barrels ; Bourbon Heritage Center ; Charlie DeSpain ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mother-in-laws ; Prohibition ; Rye ; Wheat Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Entrepreneurship ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 17 4543 The five Shapira brothers' relationship And so, you said that most of the time they came into Louisville on Saturday nights--on Saturday, the brothers came to Louisville and, and that they kept Annie involved in the process... Annie kept the boys together and Anne explains how the Shapira brothers were strange because they actually agreed on things and they didn't fight very often. While Anne was still living in Ottawa, Canada, Annie came to visit her. When Annie was visiting she heard about a set of quintuplets that were born 200 miles from Ottawa. Annie decided she wanted to go see them and drove up there. Annie Shapira ; Callander (Canada) ; Callander, Canada ; Dionne Quintuplets ; George Ray ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mother-in-laws ; Ottawa (Canada) ; Ottawa, Canada Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) 46.2222, -79.3664 17 Callander (Canada) 5019 Heaven Hill Distillery--Family relations Yeah, let me come back to this idea of family and that commitment to family that Annie instilled. Annie's values of always sticking together helped Max and Harry run the distillery together. It was the one thing that allowed the brothers to work together, it was difficult for others to work with all the brothers. It also helped keep the family together when Max married Ellen who was a member of the Reform synagogue. Adath Jeshurun Synagogue (Louisville) ; Armand Ostroff ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; David Shapira ; Eddie Shapira ; Ellen Shapira ; Harrodsburg, Kentucky ; Harry Shapira ; Keneseth Israel Synagogue (Louisville) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Max Shapira ; Miriam Shapira ; Mother-in-laws ; Passover ; Reform synagogues ; Temples ; Yom Kippur Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Entrepreneurship ; Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 38.228142, -85.684823 17 Adath Jeshurun, Louisville (Ky.) 5371 Women in Heaven Hill Distillery I wonder if you could talk--in your earlier interview you mentioned, um, the women who were working on the bottling line. The women worked the conveyor belt at Heaven Hill Distillery. They stamped and labeled the bourbon bottles. There was also another woman who put blue wax on certain special bottles of bourbon. The bottles were then sealed in boxes and ready to be sold. There were also secretaries working in the office. Bardstown, Kentucky ; Bourbon ; Heaven Hill Distillery ; Tours Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry 17 5710 Another Jewish bourbon family Are there any stories or legends from the bourbon business that you want to share? Shapira knew another Canadian bourbon family when she still lived in Canada. She was in the same sorority as one of the daughters. She didn't know them at all through bourbon, she only knew them socially. Bronfman ; McGill University ; Montreal (Canada) ; Montreal, Canada Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry 45.5017, -73.5673 17 Montreal (Canada) 5879 Race relations You, um, you told a couple of stories of the roles of African Americans at, uh, Jewish Hospital and, um, and Annie's driver... Shapira confused the Jewish word &quot ; shachor&quot ; meaning black man with &quot ; chauffeur.&quot ; She wrote home to her family and told them. Her family laughed because of her misunderstanding. Shapira says she didn't really know any African Americans involved in the industry. She mentions that there probably were some involved, but she didn't pay attention. African Americans in the bourbon industry ; Chauffeurs ; George Ray ; Jack Daniel's whiskey ; Language ; Lynchburg (Tenn.) ; Lynchburg, Tennessee African Americans in the whiskey industry ; African Americans--Employment. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 35.2830, -86.3740 17 Lynchburg (Tenn.) 6076 Heaven Hill Distillery--Jewish values in business What was--what can you tell us about the experience of these five Jewish brothers running a distillery in what was then and now mostly non-Jewish industry of bourbon? Shapira says that the brothers were in the right place at the right time. Prohibition had just ended and the bank was looking for someone to open a distillery with Charles DeSpain. The bank came to the brothers and they agreed to open the distillery with DeSpain. Eventually, the brothers started to close down their stores because bigger stores like Walmart were starting to move in. The brothers ran the distillery like they ran their stores. Bardstown, Kentucky ; David Shapira ; Eddie Shapira ; George Shapira ; Harrodsburg, Kentucky ; Heaven Hill Distillery ; Louisville Store ; Prohibition ; Walmart Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Entrepreneurship ; Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 17 6423 Jewish identity and community involvement Um, so, did your role change over the years? Shapira was involved with the National Council for Jewish Women, the synagogue, and several other organizations. She joined the National Council for Jewish Women as soon as she moved to Kentucky. She became friends with another dietician named Suzanne Hammill. Shapira didn't really have a role in the business, but she was very involved in the Jewish community. She was president of Hadassah, she raised money for the Jewish Federation, and she put on a Seder at Adath Jeshurun, among other things. At this point in time, Shapira says her physical involvement is not there, mostly because of her age. Adath Jeshurun Synagogue (Louisville) ; Hadassah ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; National Council for Jewish Women ; Seder ; Suzanne Hammill ; Synagogues Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) 17 6729 Anti-Semitism in Louisville and Harrodsburg Is there, um--I've got two short questions I'll ask. Shapira recounts the story of how her mother-in-law Annie was unable to buy a house in a particular neighborhood. She also talks about how she never felt any discrimination when she was living in Harrodsburg. Anne and David didn't really seek out Christian friends because they had enough Jewish friends. Anne talks about Charlie, the manager of the distillery, and how they were friends. She also talks about the women of the family and how they were only there to cook, clean, and be their husbands' companions. Annie Shapira ; Charlie DeSpain ; David Shapira ; Gary Shapira ; Harrodsburg, Kentucky ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mother-in-laws ; Rachel Shapira Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Jewish families. ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Harrodsburg ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Harrodsburg ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) 17 7174 Final remarks Is there anything else you want to share that I haven't had--anything else you'd like to add that I haven't had the chance to ask you? Shapira talks about how she was treated with the greatest respect while in Harrodsburg. Her daughter was invited to sleepovers and she was very involved in the community. Shapira says they came to Louisville every week and that was where most of their social life happened. Bardstown, Kentucky ; Danville, Kentucky ; David Shapira ; Eddie Shapira ; George Shapira ; Harrodsburg, Kentucky ; Harry Shapira ; Judy Shapira ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Miriam Shapira Bardstown (Ky.) ; Danville (Ky.) ; Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Harrodsburg ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) 17 interview Anne Edelstein Shapira was born in Ottawa, Canada in 1914 and her parents were immigrants from Manchester, England. She visited the United States in 1934 and 1936 to see her Aunt Rachel in Louisville. Rachel was married to the eldest Shapira brother and Anne would stay with the Shapira family while she was in Louisville. On Anne’s second visit, she was offered a job at Jewish Hospital as a nutritionist. While she worked there, she lived in a house next to Jewish Hospital with several other women. She was in charge of planning meals for all the private patients and buying ingredients for their meals each morning. She worked closely with the head nurse at Jewish Hospital. The head nurse was also one of the women Anne shared the house with. Anne was treated fairly and with respect during her time at the hospital. Anne worked at Jewish Hospital for about two years, and then she married David Shapira in 1938. She met David while she was visiting her aunt and staying with the Shapira family. David Shapira managed two clothing stores in Harrodsburg, Kentucky and eventually opened the Heaven Hill Distillery with his four brothers. The bank came to the five brothers to ask if they would be interested in opening the distillery with another man. The brothers, the man, and the bank all put in money in order to reopen the distillery and the Heaven Hill Distillery was born. The Heaven Hill Distillery specialized in the manufacturing of bourbon. Anne was not very involved in either of David’s businesses. She mainly planned parties for the distillery and occasionally worked at the stores on the weekends. She was more active in the community and Jewish organizations. Shapira planned linen showers for Hadassah and put on a seder to teach people how it was done. She was also very active in various fundraising efforts, including raising money for the National Jewish Federation. FERNHEIMER: My name is Janice Fernheimer. I am the director of Jewish studies and associate professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies at the University of Kentucky. And I--it is my great pleasure to be here today with Anne Shapira on July 25, 2016 to conduct an oral history interview to become part of the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Jewish Kentucky Collection. I&#039 ; m going to start with some questions that I hope will be easy. (laughter) First, what was your name at birth, and when and where were you born? SHAPIRA: My name at birth was Anne Sh--Edelstein, E-d-e-l-s-t-e-i-n. And I was born in Mo--Ottawa, Canada, March the 23, 1914. FERNHEIMER: And when and how did your family arrive in Canada? SHAPIRA: My mother and father were both born in England, Manchester, England. They migrated to Ireland, Dublin, Ireland. FERNHEIMER: And-- SHAPIRA: In nin--in 1910, they migrated to Ottawa, Canada. FERNHEIMER: What brought them to Canada? SHAPIRA: They had an uncle who had already moved, and the--he was able to take care of them and get them a house, get him a job. My grandfather was a tailor, and he could get in the business in Ottawa tailoring men&#039 ; s clothing only. Very fine. Because in England, he owned a factory that manufactured suits. So when he came to Canada, he did the same thing, only in a store. Couldn&#039 ; t afford anything else. FERNHEIMER: What were your parents&#039 ; names? SHAPIRA: What, hon? FERNHEIMER: What were your parents&#039 ; names? SHAPIRA: Mildred Hollander. FERNHEIMER: And-- SHAPIRA: That&#039 ; s my mother&#039 ; s maiden name. And my father&#039 ; s name was Edelstein. FERNHEIMER: And when were they born? Do you remember? SHAPIRA: Mother was born in 1896. I tried to figure that--I was born in 1914. Mother was just eighteen, nineteen years old when I was born. FERNHEIMER: Mm. And do you have siblings? SHAPIRA: Pardon me? FERNHEIMER: Do you have brothers and sisters? SHAPIRA: A sister. One sister. She&#039 ; s three years and seven months younger than me. FERNHEIMER: Is she still alive? SHAPIRA: Pardon me? FERNHEIMER: Is she still alive? SHAPIRA: Yes. She lives in Sarasota, Florida. FERNHEIMER: What&#039 ; s her name? SHAPIRA: And I spend the winter down there with her. FERNHEIMER: What is her name? SHAPIRA: Frieda. FERNHEIMER: Frieda Edelstein? SHAPIRA: Well, she&#039 ; s married. She was married. Frieda Horen, H-o-r-e-n. And then she married an Epstein. FERNHEIMER: And did they stay in Canada, or did they move-- SHAPIRA: No. FERNHEIMER: When did she move to Florida? SHAPIRA: I moved here at least--let&#039 ; s go back a bit. I had an aunt, my mother&#039 ; s sister. FERNHEIMER: What was her name? SHAPIRA: Her name was Ra--Rachel. FERNHEIMER: Rachel. SHAPIRA: Rachel Hollander. And she came here to visit a couple who had also lived in Manchester, England, and she came to visit them here. FERNHEIMER: In Louisville? SHAPIRA: And while she was here, she was pretty, and they dated her up with the oldest of the five Shapira brothers. Then after she got married, took about four years, I came to visit her, 1930. I have to go back so many years. I came to visit her, and that&#039 ; s the second youngest of the five brothers, and I married him. So now we have an aunt and a niece married to two brothers. She married the oldest, Gary, and when I visited, I met David, the second youngest. And we got married in 1938. FERNHEIMER: Now I&#039 ; m going to--I--I know, um, when you came to Kentucky to visit your aunt Rachel, you had just finished university at McGill in 1934. SHAPIRA: Yes. I graduated &#039 ; 34, and then I did postgraduate, which was Montreal General Hospital. If you took two years there, they added your degree. I was ready to get a master&#039 ; s. FERNHEIMER: So you came-- SHAPIRA: And I worked in the hospital as a dietician for those two years. FERNHEIMER: In your--you gave an interview in 2007--in 2007, you--someone else interviewed you. I listened to that interview. It&#039 ; s at the library, the University of Louisville. And you said that when you visited your aunt, that&#039 ; s when you met David. You said that now. And that you were also offered a position here to work with the Jewish Hospital. SHAPIRA: That&#039 ; s right. FERNHEIMER: And, um, you said, &quot ; I was very anxious to remain here, so I did.&quot ; I was wondering, can you tell me a little bit about that visit to your aunt and how you met David, and how you came to be offered that position at Jewish Hospital? SHAPIRA: I came to visit in--what was it, thirty-- FERNHEIMER: Was it &#039 ; 36? SHAPIRA: Got married in &#039 ; 38. And g--gave--must have come here in about &#039 ; 35. FERNHEIMER: Thirty-five? SHAPIRA: And I came to visit my aunt, and she was living with her mother-in-law. Mrs. Shapira, the mother of the five brothers, had this ho--home on First Street, 1379 South First. And the boys all lived with their mother when they were w--in the city. Most of the time, they lived in the little towns where they had a store. But weekends, they&#039 ; d come--come up. And that&#039 ; s how I met--that&#039 ; s how I met Dave, because I went to visit, and he came home for the--for the weekend, and that&#039 ; s how I met Dave. Now, you asked me--what was the question you just asked me? FERNHEIMER: Uh, how--so tell me a little bit about that meeting, what--what-- SHAPIRA: Oh, how I met? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SHAPIRA: Okay. Well, my mother--my future mother-in-law--my mother in--Ray, my aunt&#039 ; s mother-in-law, we&#039 ; d all stay in that same house. She became ill, and her doctor was a Dr. David Cohen. And she was in bed, and he came to visit. And while he was there, my--the patient, my mother-in-law, Mrs. Shapira, said, &quot ; I want you to meet Anne Edelstein. She&#039 ; s my daughter-in-law&#039 ; s niece.&quot ; That was Ray&#039 ; s niece. And she said, she saw so--just graduated from McGill. She came here from McGill University in Canada, and she&#039 ; s a dietician. So Dr. David Cohen&#039 ; s eyes went a--&quot ; Oh, a Jewish girl, a dietician. We need one at the Jewish Hospital.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m sorry, I&#039 ; m a Canadian, I&#039 ; m not permitted to work in the United States without what they call a green card.&quot ; So Dr. Cohen says, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t worry about that, I&#039 ; ll fix that. You go and be interviewed by the president of the Jewish Hospital, and I&#039 ; m sure he&#039 ; d be delighted to hire you.&quot ; So that&#039 ; s what happened. FERNHEIMER: Wow. So you went--so was Dr. Cohen working at Jewish Hospital at the time? SHAPIRA: Y--Dr. David Cohen. He was the--very well known, and very well liked doctor. FERNHEIMER: What--what was it like to work at Jewish Hospital during that time? SHAPIRA: I thought of that all night. It was an amazing privilege, and the head of the Jewish Hospital, a Mrs. Hughes, unless you&#039 ; d like to know, I remember her name. She was the matron of the Jewish Hospital, in charge of all of the nurses. Not nec--not the doctors, just nurses. The whole nursing staff, let me put it that way. And you asked me-- FERNHEIMER: --just-- SHAPIRA: --what it was like? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SHAPIRA: Well, you were like the prime minister of a build--of a country. (laughter) What I&#039 ; m saying is do they bow down to you, you were considered on the same level as a doctor. You&#039 ; ve got the same--what should I say? We were looked upon as head of a--the department, the food department. So therefore, we were very well known, we were very--we knew every patient, practically. And in those days, you visited the private patients with a clipboard and asked what they&#039 ; d like to eat the next day. So at the Jewish Hospital, the patients who were private patients got ext--magnificent care. Uh, they got anything they wanted to eat, three meals a day. And the night before, I&#039 ; d take my clipboard with a pen and say &quot ; What would you like to eat?&quot ; This is what&#039 ; s on the menu ; if you&#039 ; re not suited, we&#039 ; ll get you something else. So at the Jewish Hospital, all the private patients got almost person-to-person care. Um, the general--the patients who were not private patients came from a different kitchen. And there, they had a dietician there who planned their meals. I only did the private patients. Um-- FERNHEIMER: Were they mostly kosher meals? SHAPIRA: What, honey? FERNHEIMER: Were the meals mostly kosher? Were the-- SHAPIRA: I&#039 ; m sorry. FERNHEIMER: Were the meals kosher for the Jewish-- SHAPIRA: They were kosher, yeah. Yeah. I planned the kosher meals, and I planned the meals for the private patients. And another chef, and another--she was not a dietician, but she planned the meals for the other part. Um, it was interesting. They bought a house next door to the hospital, and you can still see it if you go there. And that&#039 ; s where the head nurse and myself lived, in this house next door to the hospital. That&#039 ; s at--that&#039 ; s at Jacob Fort. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. SHAPIRA: And the-- FERNHEIMER: Was--was that the house that was purchased by the Bernheim Brothers, the nurses&#039 ; house? SHAPIRA: No, I don&#039 ; t think--I don&#039 ; t think so. I mean, here&#039 ; s a hospital, and right next door was this nice-looking house. It had about four bedrooms. So Mrs. Hughes, Ms. Hughes, and myself had rooms with our own private bath. FERNHEIMER: Mm. SHAPIRA: Some of the other staff stayed there, but I don&#039 ; t remember. FERNHEIMER: How many women altogether stayed in the house? SHAPIRA: Pardon me? FERNHEIMER: How many women altogether in the house? SHAPIRA: Maybe five, six. But Mrs. Hughes and myself had the rooms with a bath, each one. And we slept there--we--I got a hundred dollars a month. FERNHEIMER: Wow! SHAPIRA: From working from seven in the morning till seven at night, with two hours in between to go home to re--to go back to the house, rest, and come back for the evening meal. FERNHEIMER: How many patients did you see each day? SHAPIRA: I don&#039 ; t remember exactly how--how many. Uh, the number of private patients might have been six, five or six. Oh, another interesting story. At five, six o&#039 ; clock in the morning, I got up, got dressed in my white uniform, and went to the market. There was a black man, had a station wagon, and I&#039 ; d meet him at 6:30 in the morning, and we&#039 ; d go to the market and buy all the food that we needed for the private patients, not for the others, just the private patients. Can you imagine, at a hundred dollars a month, getting up at 6:30 in the morning and go in a truck to the market and pick up all these? (laughter) When I think of it now, I just can&#039 ; t believe that that was the way it was. FERNHEIMER: Were there--what kind of patients did you see? What--what--the private patients, what kind of illness did they have? Where did they-- SHAPIRA: They were probably wealthy enough to have a ro--room and a bath. Most of them were older. Maybe older in those days was sixty-five or seventy, I don&#039 ; t remember. (laughter) Also, they had a maternity ward, and a lot of Jewish babies were born at the Jewish Hospital. My two children were born at the Jewish Hospital, and the maternity ward was very well-known, and the doctors who took care of them were also very well-known. So I&#039 ; d say that was almost a maternity hospital. (laughter) Because many, many Jewish children were born at the Jewish hospital. FERNHEIMER: And what--what other kinds of memories about the Jewish Hospital from that time do you have? Uh, w--what can you share with us about the experience? Y--you talked a little bit about working so hard for a hundred dollars a month. Were there other women working, uh, other than the nurses? Did you encounter--did you encounter a lot of other women working? SHAPIRA: Well, uh, except Mrs. Hughes. Jewish girls weren&#039 ; t--they weren&#039 ; t trained to be nurses. Uh, I think being--having a nurse in those days was more--lower than the standard that Jewish mothers and fathers would like their children. I don&#039 ; t remember only one Jewish--I gave you her name, did I get you her name? FERNHEIMER: No, tell me, please. SHAPIRA: Oh, what&#039 ; s her name? Abby? One Jewish woman that I knew worked at the--I&#039 ; ll have to think about that, but there was a Jewish woman. That&#039 ; s all I remember. FERNHEIMER: Who was a nurse? SHAPIRA: She was a nurse. FERNHEIMER: And-- SHAPIRA: Uh, as I remember her--I&#039 ; ll try and think of her name. Let&#039 ; s see. In my purse, there&#039 ; s a--I wrote down some of the names. FERNHEIMER: Would you like me to get your purse? SHAPIRA: Where&#039 ; s my--in my little red purse right there. Thank you. Here it is. Remember, Ms. Hughes, and I remember Dr. Cohen. FERNHEIMER: Tell me a little bit about Ms. Hughes. SHAPIRA: About my what? FERNHEIMER: Tell me about Ms. Hughes. What kind of woman was she? SHAPIRA: She was tall, straight, she walked around with her arms like this all day long. Wore her little white cap. Never married. She was a typical Englishwoman, very stern. And you did what she said to do. I mean, you went to her with all your plans. She had to okay everything. She was very nice to me, I had no problems with her at all, but most of the nurses did, um, because she held herself above the stack. Because in those days, being a nurse was not something that was considered a career. It was something that you did to earn a living, and now we put the training that you all have. That&#039 ; s not the way--I worked at the Jewish Hospital as a dietician. I think there was one Jewish nurse in the whole hospital. So Jewish girls did not go into that profession, and I don&#039 ; t think they do today too much. I&#039 ; m not sure. I&#039 ; m sure maybe they do, because, uh, you can get a degree in nursing. Where before, all the experience you got was on the floor. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. SHAPIRA: You came in as just someone who wanted to learn how to be a nurse, and so--but, uh, you couldn&#039 ; t go to school. There was no such thing as a degree in nursing like there is today. I don&#039 ; t know a whole lot of what&#039 ; s going on now in the field, or, uh, to be a nurse at one of the hospitals, you have to have some kind of a degree? I&#039 ; m not sure. FERNHEIMER: I--I think so now. Um, but I--I&#039 ; m curious more about then. Um, so you worked there for two years? SHAPIRA: What, hon? FERNHEIMER: How long did you work at Jewish Hospital? SHAPIRA: Almost two years. FERNHEIMER: And how did--you said there weren&#039 ; t a lot of Jewish nurses then, and that your position, it sounds like, was very well respected, like Ms. Hughes. Um, how did other--how did your family feel about you moving to Louisville to take this job? SHAPIRA: (laughter) They were happy for me, because the minute I met David, I fell in love. I went home--I went home after I met him, and I was home a year or so, then I came back, and it was on my second trip back here that I had--was asked to take the job. FERNHEIMER: So the first trip was in &#039 ; 35? SHAPIRA: Nineteen thirty-four, thirty-five. FERNHEIMER: And the second trip was, like, &#039 ; 36? SHAPIRA: Thirty-six. Mm-hmm. FERNHEIMER: And-- SHAPIRA: So, when I was offered the job, I was thrilled and delighted, because I wanted to marry Dave, and this was the only way I--I felt that I could stay here and be courted, and make plans to get married. FERNHEIMER: Did you correspond with David in that year you were back in Canada? SHAPIRA: Mm, telephone call. FERNHEIMER: Telephone call. No letters? SHAPIRA: The telephone was, in those days--a long-distance telephone call on Friday nights. FERNHEIMER: That must have been expensive! SHAPIRA: Oh. This is not for publication. You want to know something that happened in the Jewish Hospital? It&#039 ; s really cute. It&#039 ; s really--don&#039 ; t--don&#039 ; t record this. [Pause in recording.] FERNHEIMER: (laughter) That&#039 ; s a good one. SHAPIRA: Don&#039 ; t put that in the book. (laughter) FERNHEIMER: I imagine that might have made things awkward when you saw him later on. Uh-- SHAPIRA: Pardon me? FERNHEIMER: When you saw the doctor later on, did you-- SHAPIRA: --oh, he was still in there-- FERNHEIMER: --pretend you hadn&#039 ; t seen anything? Um-- SHAPIRA: A Jewish doctor. (laughter) FERNHEIMER: --(gasp)-- With a Jewish girlfriend, or a not Jewish nurse? SHAPIRA: I--I don&#039 ; t remember. I don&#039 ; t know. She was--I know her name, but I&#039 ; m not going to give you her name. FERNHEIMER: (laughter) SHAPIRA: She was a Jewish girl, one of the few Jewish doctors. So that&#039 ; s my famous story. FERNHEIMER: From working at that time. That&#039 ; s a pretty good one. Um, so that wasn&#039 ; t your typical day. SHAPIRA: No. FERNHEIMER: Um, typical day. More--tell me a little bit more about that typical day. SHAPIRA: Typical day was from early in the morning, go to the market pick up the food, come back, make my menus for the next day so I know what to buy. The chef took care of the cooking. I just gave him--you know, he got all the food that I brought in, gave him the menus, and he--from then on, I did not go in the kitchen until noon. Then I went with my menus and went back again to the chef. And at four o&#039 ; clock, I was off duty. I didn&#039 ; t do it at night. I just did from early in the morning till afternoon, after lunch. FERNHEIMER: And you mentioned you did the shopping with a black man in the morning, uh, who would--who drove you. Was that unusual at the time? SHAPIRA: The black man? FERNHEIMER: To have a driver? SHAPIRA: You know, I didn&#039 ; t think about it too much. I thought that that&#039 ; s the way it is. If you&#039 ; re going to be in the truck, or you&#039 ; re going to service thing, you had a black person. I mean, to me, coming from Canada, where I knew absolutely nothing about black people, but--except at my mother-in-law&#039 ; s home where she had a couple--black couple who worked for her. So when someone was in a truck or doing something service people, you more or less felt that there was going to be black people. FERNHEIMER: Do you remember his name, the gentleman who drove you? SHAPIRA: I don&#039 ; t remember his name. FERNHEIMER: Were there other African Americans working at Jewish Hospital at the time? SHAPIRA: I&#039 ; m thinking. I think there were the--in the kitchen, I think. There were no black nurses. I&#039 ; m assuming they cleaned the--you know, cleaned the building. It&#039 ; s something I never thought about. I think maybe I took it for granted that the cooks and everybody in the kitchen were black people. FERNHEIMER: It&#039 ; s interesting to me, because during that time in other parts of the US, there was a lot of segregation. SHAPIRA: I can&#039 ; t hear you. FERNHEIMER: I&#039 ; m sorry. It&#039 ; s interesting to me to hear you talk about this, because at that time in this country, there was a lot of segregation. So to have, uh, African Americans and non-African Americans working in the same place is interesting. And so it sounds like that was the case-- SHAPIRA: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --at Jewish Hospital. Um-- SHAPIRA: But I don&#039 ; t remember the staff being other than white. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. SHAPIRA: I could be completely wrong. (laughter) FERNHEIMER: Um-- SHAPIRA: Oh, except that man who drove the truck, and he worked in the hospital, too. FERNHEIMER: Um-- SHAPIRA: That&#039 ; s the only one I can recall. FERNHEIMER: Um, during that time, that was before World War II, but after the Nuremberg Laws had been passed in Germany. To what degree did you or any of your patients have a sense of what was happening in Germany at the time? SHAPIRA: I don&#039 ; t recall. I don&#039 ; t think so. FERNHEIMER: Um-- SHAPIRA: The patients, as I remember them, most--like I told you, the maternity ward. Uh, Jewish Hospital was very popular with the Jewish patients. I can&#039 ; t remember Christians or not. And I don&#039 ; t recall any animosity. I think it was very easy, safe place to work. Uh, there were a lot of German people who had migrated over, uh, grandparents. Maybe not--not the mothers or the children, but the grandparents were probably immigrants. But I never heard anything at that point in time. You know, you must remember, I&#039 ; m a Canadian. Coming over here to a country that I knew very little about. As far as their politics were concerned, I had no idea. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. SHAPIRA: Until I wanted to become an American citizen. Took five years before I could apply. So after five years, I applied. And in those days, you met one-on-one with a judge. Today&#039 ; s world, they meet groups of people coming over here. They go before a judge, maybe six, seven, or eight, maybe ten at one time. But in my day, there only was the--only the person, only the first person--the only person in front of Judge Ford. There was a Judge Ford here. So after five years, I got papers, I was asked to go before Judge Ford in Lexington, and I was the only one being given citizenship papers. And the thing I remember most about it is he asked me, the judge, &quot ; Ms. Edelstein?&quot ; &quot ; Yes.&quot ; &quot ; Born in Ottawa, Canada?&quot ; &quot ; Yes.&quot ; He said, &quot ; What would you do if you had a brother in Canada, and then Canada when to war against the United States, and your brother became a soldier with the possibility of getting killed? How would you feel about it?&quot ; I said, &quot ; Oh, Judge Ford, I don&#039 ; t have to be concerned. I don&#039 ; t have a brother.&quot ; He collapsed. He thought, what a foolish question to ask. And that&#039 ; s the one thing I remember about becoming a citizen of the United States. (laughter) FERNHEIMER: And so that was five years after you moved here in &#039 ; 36. So that was right when-- SHAPIRA: Forty-three, forty-- FERNHEIMER: --to the US was in World War II at the time. SHAPIRA: Pardon me? FERNHEIMER: So World War II was happening at that time when you became-- SHAPIRA: What was happening at that time? FERNHEIMER: Uh, you became a citizen of the United States-- SHAPIRA: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --during World War II. SHAPIRA: Yes. FERNHEIMER: I&#039 ; m just trying to imagine where the judge&#039 ; s question was coming from. SHAPIRA: Right. So that&#039 ; s the feeling at that point in time, because the relationships between Canada and the United States, happy. You know, there was no ever feeling of the--like I said, I never knew, or at that point in time, that there would be anything going on between the two. FERNHEIMER: Is there anything else about your experiences at Jewish Hospital that I haven&#039 ; t asked you that you think I should know or that you&#039 ; d like to share? SHAPIRA: At the Jewish Hospital? I worked there, what, two years? Um, I was treated with the same respect as they--as Ms. Hughes, who was the head of the department. I don&#039 ; t recall ever having any--anything that would happen between our relationship, or that was happening at the Jewish Hospital. I really don&#039 ; t. I think it was a wonderful experience, and I was respected, and so was Ms. Hughes, and so--(laughter)-- FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about, uh, first meeting David. What do you remember--when you first met David, what--was it--what-- SHAPIRA: With David? (laughter) FERNHEIMER: Was it love at first sight? Was it-- SHAPIRA: How can I say? Aunt Ray lived in the same house, 1379 South First Street. She lived there with her mother-in-law. And--oh. Shoot. I think--uh, and every weekend, all the boys would come in from the towns where they were managing the stores. Elizabethtown, Bardstown, Harrodsburg, Danville, and each of the boys took charge and lived in the town where they were. So you wanted to know-- FERNHEIMER: What--what was your impression of David? How did--when he came in-- SHAPIRA: Oh, he came in the front door. It&#039 ; s okay, he came--well, I was waiting. I know he was coming, I knew they all four were coming. And he dressed so sharp. I remember he wore a fedora, a straw hat--excuse me, it was summer, he wore a straw hat. Beautiful clothes. Dimples, black hair, black curly hair. And I always had told my mother, I want to marry a man with dimples. There he was. And I think I fell in love with him. But being, living in the house where he came every weekend, I couldn&#039 ; t help but know him more, get to know him. So every Saturday night--this is, uh, a true tale. Every Saturday night, my mother-in-law had a breakfast table in the nook. And every Saturday night, all five boys--four boys, because Gary was already married and living in the house--would come, sit down at that breakfast room table, and have a meeting with their mother. She was an image. I mean, she was a personality. I think you asked me about women. Well, she was typically a woman--&quot ; You do what I say to.&quot ; I mean, this is the way it was, and the boys respected her so. And if they said something that she didn&#039 ; t like--(laughter)--she had an eye that-- FERNHEIMER: (laughter) An evil eye? A stink eye? SHAPIRA: She had one eye that was weak. And if they said something that she didn&#039 ; t like, she said, &quot ; Boy, you can&#039 ; t do that.&quot ; And she&#039 ; d always wink with that eye, because it was a little cross. (laughter) FERNHEIMER: How did she--how did she wield such influence? Was it-- SHAPIRA: What, honey? FERNHEIMER: Her influence, her power. How did she wield it? It--to have four grown men-- SHAPIRA: Well, anyhow, okay. FERNHEIMER: Say yes when a woman says that, that&#039 ; s impressive. SHAPIRA: In Springfield, where they lived above the store, her husband died very young. She had already had her five boys, but they--most--the youngest was only two years old when the father died. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SHAPIRA: So she took over managing the store. And the oldest at that time was, like--Gary, the oldest, had to be about seventeen years old. So he came in the store to help her. He had to quit school to come and help her, because she had these kids, you know, the other three children were young. FERNHEIMER: So she was raising three small boys-- SHAPIRA: She was raising these children, and working the store. FERNHEIMER: At the same time? SHAPIRA: At the same time. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SHAPIRA: Pardon me? FERNHEIMER: Wow. I&#039 ; m just thinking-- SHAPIRA: Because that&#039 ; s just her business. They owned the building, and the store was on the first floor, was a ba--balcony, there were stairs at the back to go down. And above that were two more--two more of--level, what do you call them? FERNHEIMER: Levels of the house? SHAPIRA: The store--how many floors? Two more floors. And she lives on those two floors above this--above the store. And every morning, she&#039 ; d come down and open the business and stay there, put her children to school, send them--go back out, take the kid--in those days, they walked to school, and she just ran that store until I think I told you the date that they--she moved to Louisville. FERNHEIMER: I think in the earlier interview, you said--I--I don&#039 ; t recall. Do you recall the year right now? SHAPIRA: I&#039 ; m trying to think the date she moved here. Let&#039 ; s see. I got married &#039 ; 38. About 1934. FERNHEIMER: So about the--just a little bit before you met-- SHAPIRA: --David-- FERNHEIMER: --David, she had moved to Loui-- SHAPIRA: They moved to Louisville. FERNHEIMER: And that&#039 ; s your Aunt Ray had met Gary? SHAPIRA: I wish I could get--remember the date she got married. They lived--Gary fell in love with Ray he met her. FERNHEIMER: When she-- SHAPIRA: But he would not bring a bride to Springfield. He felt that that was no place for a young Jewish girl in Springfield with no one to be with. So they bought this home on 1379 First. He went to Chicago to the merchandise mart. But did not furnish her to--furnish that place. Then he got married and brought Aunt Ray to Louisville. They got married in Ottawa. FERNHEIMER: Huh. SHAPIRA: And his mother came, and all the family--there was another family called Berlin. They all came, got married. And he brought her back to this house with all the furniture and the--and that&#039 ; s where they lived. Then a couple years later, I came to visit, and then stay. That&#039 ; s how it started. FERNHEIMER: So after you met him, you corresponded by telephone. SHAPIRA: Right, mostly. FERNHEIMER: Letters too, or no letters? Any letters? SHAPIRA: Some. FERNHEIMER: Some. Do you still have them? SHAPIRA: (laughter) Yeah. FERNHEIMER: What is--oh, what are some of the warmest things you remember from those letters? SHAPIRA: What? FERNHEIMER: What--what are the--what are some of your warmer memories from those letters or those phone calls-- SHAPIRA: From my wedding? FERNHEIMER: From your courtship, or your wedding. SHAPIRA: Oh, from my courtship? Yeah. Um, I came home, and I thought he was a nice guy. But I was going with somebody else. FERNHEIMER: Who? SHAPIRA: Then one day, I get a telephone call, long distance from Toronto. That was about 300 miles--are you familiar with Canada at all? FERNHEIMER: Yeah, a little bit. SHAPIRA: Okay. So I got a telephone call from Toronto. I don&#039 ; t know who that could be, and he said--David, &quot ; I&#039 ; m on my way to visit you. I&#039 ; ll be there Saturday afternoon.&quot ; I said, &quot ; David,&quot ; I was in shock. I said, &quot ; Oh, you can&#039 ; t come Saturday afternoon. I&#039 ; ve got a date to go tea dancing.&quot ; FERNHEIMER: Tea dancing? What is that? SHAPIRA: Oh, that&#039 ; s very popular in Canada. Saturday afternoon at the big hotel, they had an orchestra, and a ballroom, and everybody went tea dancing. You went from three to five, and they served afternoon tea, and then you went home. FERNHEIMER: What kind of dancing was it? Was it jitterbug? Anything? SHAPIRA: Regular dancing. FERNHEIMER: Regular? SHAPIRA: Foxtrots, and waltzes. And what else did you dance in those days? An orchestra, a four-piece orchestra, and most of your friends were there with their date. And if you didn&#039 ; t have a date to go tea dancing on Saturday afternoon, you were miserable. FERNHEIMER: So how did David react when you told him &quot ; I have plans&quot ; ? (laughter) SHAPIRA: How did what? FERNHEIMER: How did he react when he was in Canada and you--to see you, and you said &quot ; I have plans&quot ; ? SHAPIRA: Well, he--he came anyway. I didn&#039 ; t tell him what the plans were. And now he came, and he stayed downtown at a hotel. I&#039 ; m trying to think what else? I called my date, and I said--his name was Hy, Hy Lesley. I said, &quot ; Hy, I&#039 ; m sorry, but I&#039 ; m going to have to break the date, but we have family coming.&quot ; I lied. (laughter) &quot ; And I have to entertain them on Saturday.&quot ; So that was that. I lied. FERNHEIMER: And--and--and--and from then on, were you--what--you knew then? SHAPIRA: --right-- FERNHEIMER: This was the one? Or did it evolve? Or tell me about that. SHAPIRA: You mean when I went to visit him, or when-- FERNHEIMER: During that visit, did you know kind of right away that David was for you? SHAPIRA: I think so. FERNHEIMER: Or did it take a while? SHAPIRA: I think so. So we dated, what, how many years? Thirty--got married in &#039 ; 38, and marry--graduated from college in &#039 ; 34, and went to visit, it was between &#039 ; 34 and &#039 ; 38. That was four years of knowing each other back and forth. I went there twice to visit. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SHAPIRA: And the second time, he proposed-- FERNHEIMER: --wow-- SHAPIRA: --and gave me my ring. FERNHEIMER: And when was that? In 1936? Was that in 1936? SHAPIRA: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And that&#039 ; s when you take--took--he proposed before you took the job at Jewish Hospital, or after? Were you already here? SHAPIRA: Well, I--I was here. I was here, still working. And then I quit and went home, get ready to get married. And that&#039 ; s all about me. Now what are you ask--what did you-- FERNHEIMER: I have more questions. Um-- SHAPIRA: (laughter) FERNHEIMER: --after married--but I was very curious about that, you know? SHAPIRA: Are you--are you feeling interested in--is this part of the Jewishness? FERNHEIMER: Yeah, there&#039 ; s two parts of it. Part of it is part of the Jewish Kentucky story. SHAPIRA: Right. FERNHEIMER: And also, part of the bourbon story. SHAPIRA: Now, a couple of things I could mention. I guess I should when that first came here on First Street, there was an orphanage, a Jewish orphanage. FERNHEIMER: What was the name? SHAPIRA: It was on First Street, and I can&#039 ; t remember the name of it. But anyhow, the--a lot of--a lot of people were immigrating into here, and had babies to be taken care of, because they had nothing to do but work. The immigrants from Germany, from Russia, it was during those pogroms where they were--everybody was leaving. So I had to mention that, at that point in time, it was a Jewish orphanage on First Street. I have no idea the name. I could point the building to you, but you could find that out-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah-- SHAPIRA: --easily enough. FERNHEIMER: What--uh, while we&#039 ; re on the businesses, names and--and things, what was the name of the store--the family store in Springfield that your mother-in-law ran? SHAPIRA: The Louisville Store. FERNHEIMER: Lou--okay, that was the Louisville Store. SHAPIRA: Some of them were the Lincoln Store, was one in Danville. In Harrodsburg, where I lived, the Louisville store. There were two. One was the Louisville Store, one was the Lincoln Store. On the same street a hundred yards from each other. FERNHEIMER: In Harrodsburg? SHAPIRA: In Harrodsburg. FERNHEIMER: And which--which one sold what kinds of things? SHAPIRA: They both sold the same thing. In the old--in those days, the farmers were so busy that the only time they shopped was Saturday. And they shopped at both stores. My husband stayed in the first store, the Louisville Store. And then the other store--there was a beauty shop upstairs. So the ladies wanted to get their hair done in the shop in the store below the Lincoln. FERNHEIMER: And did your husband manage both stores, or just the one store? SHAPIRA: He was at the one. He managed both. I mean, he&#039 ; d go back and forth. It was twenty-five yards in between them. (laughter) FERNHEIMER: Um, and-- SHAPIRA: So he managed both, but we used to say that the ladies had their hair done once a week, and they never combed it after that. That&#039 ; s the way it was. FERNHEIMER: So--so what was your involvement in the family business at that point, if any? SHAPIRA: Oh. I came to work on Saturday, because during the week, the stores weren&#039 ; t very busy at all. So they--maybe they had a staff of maybe two others. On Saturday, they&#039 ; d have five working the store. And my involvement on Saturday, uh, selling cosmetics, they had jars of cosmetics, ten cents a jar. And one woman came in. The famous story was in Danville, the woman came in, and--George, his wife worked on Saturdays in Danville with her, and the famous story is one woman came in and said--went over to the cos--to the cosmetics, and Ruth said to the lady, &quot ; What flavor--what--what flavor do you want?&quot ; And she didn&#039 ; t know anything about that, so she&#039 ; d--. Ruth says, &quot ; We have a lot of vanilla. Do you think you&#039 ; d like the vanilla?&quot ; That was all she said to the woman, was &quot ; We have a flavor called vanilla. Would you like that?&quot ; &quot ; Oh yes,&quot ; she&#039 ; d take vanilla. That was one of the famous stories in the building--in the business. FERNHEIMER: From the--from the cosmetics counter. Um, uh, when you were interviewed in two thousand-- SHAPIRA: Oh, another one. FERNHEIMER: Oh, good. SHAPIRA: I got one more. FERNHEIMER: Great. SHAPIRA: I&#039 ; m talking too much. What-- FERNHEIMER: No, no. This is great. You&#039 ; re talking just fine. SHAPIRA: The other famous story is, they had bolts of--in those days, there were bolts of cloth that you sold by the yard. Has your mother ever told you any of this stuff? FERNHEIMER: Uh, I&#039 ; ve seen that, and I&#039 ; ve heard it, but not from my mother. (laughter) SHAPIRA: Well, and Stewarts, the old Stewarts here. That&#039 ; s a place where they sell material by the yard or by the bolt. So anyway, this woman comes in, and I&#039 ; m in the front. I know nothing about the store. This is the first time I&#039 ; m there. So Dave says to me, &quot ; You go to the front and greet people, and tell them where to go to get shoe department&quot ; on the balcony. So a woman comes in and she says she wants outing. I said, &quot ; I thought outing--&quot ; I could hardly understand the language in the first place in the--in the little towns, you know, they had a big a--accent. So she says, &quot ; I want something for outing.&quot ; And here I am with all the bolts of cloth. So I said, &quot ; Oh, you want outing?&quot ; I take out a bowl, a bolt of fabric, and I said, &quot ; Here&#039 ; s the outing.&quot ; She said, &quot ; No, not outing cloth. I want outing.&quot ; So I tried to figure what she meant. So send it back to the coat department to the back, to the coat department. And she says to the lady there, &quot ; I want an outing.&quot ; So she knew what she meant, I sure didn&#039 ; t. She wanted a coat to where in the cold weather, so she wanted an outing coat. I had no idea, so I told--I finally figured out if you wanted a coat to wear outing, to wear out in the outing. So that&#039 ; s a famous story there that Mrs. Shapira tried to sell her outing cloth from the bolts of cloth, and that was for diapers, and she-- FERNHEIMER: (laughter) SHAPIRA: --and when she wanted to go back and get a coat from the coat department. I didn&#039 ; t understand one word they were saying. You know, the accent, you probably don&#039 ; t realize how heavy an accent they had way back then. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, well, I imagine coming from Canada, it was pretty unfamiliar. SHAPIRA: It was hard. FERNHEIMER: Um, what was it like being a Jewish family in Springfield? SHAPIRA: In Harrodsburg. FERNHEIMER: Harrods--I&#039 ; m sorry, I got confused. In Harrodsburg. SHAPIRA: What was it like? I guess at the beginning--beginning, it was an oddity. But they had worked there for a couple years as a Jewish boy working the store. And we got the greatest respect and I was accepted in the woman&#039 ; s club. Of all the people in Harrodsburg, and there was society there. The upper crust. Have you heard of Beaumont Inn? Did you ever hear about Beaumont Inn? It&#039 ; s a very famous Kentucky eating place in Harrodsburg. And when they got married, we couldn&#039 ; t find a place to live, so we had to live at Beaumont Inn. That&#039 ; s where you went for a good meal. That was the place to go. And we lived there for two years. The only people ever lived there. People would come overnight and have dinner, but we lived there for two years until we could find a place to live. The only ones. So we did. We found a little house, and as far as I&#039 ; m concerned, I think we were treated with the greatest respect. And whether our religion had anything to do with that, I don&#039 ; t know, but every Sunday, we had to go to a church ice cream--Sunday night ice cream special. And I had to go. We had to go, because my husband said, &quot ; These are our customers.&quot ; The church people were our customers, and they were the ones putting on the ice cream social. So we had to go every Sunday, we had to go to a different church for a different ice cream social. And that was--(laughter)--what can I tell you? That was the way it was. And I think, as far as I&#039 ; m concerned, they respected Dave and I, realized that we were Jewish, we were invited to all the church weddings, all the socials on Sunday night. And even though I didn&#039 ; t feel that I wanted to go, we had to go. FERNHEIMER: Were there other Jewish families in Harrodsburg at the time? SHAPIRA: Huh? FERNHEIMER: Were--there other Jewish families in Harrodsburg? SHAPIRA: One. FERNHEIMER: Who&#039 ; s that? SHAPIRA: Uh, she was a single woman for a long, long time. And--(laughter)--the story was that a shoe salesman came in. They had a store too, and she ran the store. And the shoe salesman came in from New York and proposed to her. And they got married. And he left being a shoe salesman and came in and ran the store for her. FERNHEIMER: What was the name of the store? What was her name, and what was the name of the store? SHAPIRA: Oh, her name. Her name--I knew so well. Hattie was the other Jewish lady. But how would I say it? At the bank, when they ran the bank, where the--what are you, you&#039 ; re the-- FERNHEIMER: The teller? SHAPIRA: No. FERNHEIMER: The--the bank teller? SHAPIRA: No. FERNHEIMER: The-- SHAPIRA: The manager of the store was a Jewish lady, single lady called Hattie. Hattie Abrams. And she ran the bank. FERNHEIMER: Oh, so it was a bank that she ran? SHAPIRA: Hattie ran the bank. Hattie Abrams was-- FERNHEIMER: The bank. Okay, the bank in Harrodsburg, she ran-- SHAPIRA: The bank in Harrodsburg. She was the manager of the bank. So she was greatly respected. And then he would--Dave and I, I have these daughter, we were not an oddity. We were well accepted in the family, and I cannot complain of any anti-Semitism at all in that little town. FERNHEIMER: What about holidays? What did you--what did you do for the holidays, for-- SHAPIRA: Came to Louisville. (laughter) Mother--my mother-in-law&#039 ; s home, great big house with five beds, and we came to Louisville and stayed for that whole week. FERNHEIMER: And for Sabbath, was--I know you worked on Saturday, but what about Friday? Was Friday a Sabbath observance, or-- SHAPIRA: No. FERNHEIMER: No. SHAPIRA: We came for Sat--Sunday. FERNHEIMER: Sunday. SHAPIRA: After the store closed on Sunday. He&#039 ; d pick me up, Miriam, my daughter, we came to Louisville for Sunday. We stayed all day Sunday, and last--we came Saturday night after the store closed. Dave picked me up, and we came to Louisville, parked the children, and went up to the Brown Hotel for dinner. Aunt Ray at that time had two little girls. And with my girls, there was the three girls there, and they had the nanny come in, and we got all dressed up. And by 9:30, we were at the Brown Hotel for dinner then. FERNHEIMER: What did they serve at the Brown for dinner? SHAPIRA: Delicious dinner. Chicken, roast beef, salad, vegetables, dessert. We had a drink first. I didn&#039 ; t drink that much, but they had a drink. Gary and Ray came. Gary had a drink. George would come with Ruth. There were six of us. And finally, Eddie found a wife, and brought her. So the numbers changed over the years, but that&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; d do on Saturday night. So one Saturday night, about two months ago, three months ago, I decided to take the family there for dinner. It was little different. (laughter) FERNHEIMER: (laughs) I can imagine. SHAPIRA: It was nice. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Yeah, um, is there a particular dish that stands out as memorable from that time? That-- SHAPIRA: --wha-- FERNHEIMER: --like, a--a particular food item? As a dietician, I imagine the food was kind of important. SHAPIRA: Fried chicken. FERNHEIMER: Fried chicken? SHAPIRA: (laughter) Roast beef. FERNHEIMER: Roast beef? Uh, so-- SHAPIRA: I&#039 ; ll tell you--do you like all these fu--I&#039 ; ll stop talking, you haven&#039 ; t got time for all this. FERNHEIMER: I like the funny stories. Please tell. SHAPIRA: (laughter) Well, my mother-in-law, whatever her sons liked, she&#039 ; d cook. Somebody liked brisket, fried chicken, chicken livers, um, chopped chicken, chopped liver. Whatever her boys, a typical mother, she made. And they liked chicken soup with noodles. She had a great big stove with six burners. (laughter) You&#039 ; re getting a kick out of this. I--do you interview people all the time? And do they talk as much as I am? FERNHEIMER: That&#039 ; s the sign of a good interview. SHAPIRA: Oh, it may be quick. FERNHEIMER: No, keep going. SHAPIRA: Judy--you interviewed Judy this morning? FERNHEIMER: I did have that pleasure. SHAPIRA: And she said &quot ; Mother, don&#039 ; t talk too much.&quot ; FERNHEIMER: (laughter) Um, no, you&#039 ; re doing great. So it sounds like--I--I am ma--your mother-in-law, what was her first name? SHAPIRA: Annie. FERNHEIMER: Annie. So she was Annie, and you&#039 ; re Anne. SHAPIRA: I&#039 ; m Anne. FERNHEIMER: So Annie, she sounds like a force. She made whatever the boys wanted, she kept the boys together, she ran this business. This suggests a long history of women-- SHAPIRA: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --a foundation, I should say-- SHAPIRA: Sure. FERNHEIMER: --about history of women in the family business. And you were involved after you married David. SHAPIRA: Sure. FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit more about your mother-in-law, about Annie? And, uh-- SHAPIRA: Annie, she was a little--five feet tall, small, not a big woman at all. Wore her hair back in a braid, you know, in a bun at the back of her hair. Uh, she had that one eye, I told you that was--but she wore glasses. (laughter) You know, she wore--she--that was typical. She was born that way with that eye. And every picture that we have, it&#039 ; s a little off, you can see. But my other famous story, before I forget to tell you. And stop me. You haven&#039 ; t got time for all this, do you? FERNHEIMER: We&#039 ; re good. We&#039 ; re good on time. SHAPIRA: Come on. CREW: We&#039 ; re here for you. FERNHEIMER: We&#039 ; re here for you. This is the whole reason why we&#039 ; re here. SHAPIRA: Oh, there&#039 ; s a new life, a new era for you that I&#039 ; m talking about. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. It--it really is. SHAPIRA: Uh-huh. Anyhow, the famous story. On a Sunday, in the big six burner stove, she had pasta soup, vegetable soup, chicken soup, noodles. But they were--no--those days she didn&#039 ; t have the noodles. And it was sweet potatoes that she started on the stove, and then put them in the oven. Anyhow, we&#039 ; d come in, and we&#039 ; re always there to help. The sisters then all wanted to help, so we all did a little something, since there were twelve or fourteen people in the dining room to feed. So the chicken soup there, when I&#039 ; m in there helping. She says, &quot ; Anne, go into the pantry.&quot ; That was--here was a kitchen, here was a pantry, and here was a dining room. And in between the kitchen and the dining room was a pantry, a big pantry, stored with all kinds of stuff. So she said, &quot ; Anne, you go into the pantry and pick up the noodles. It&#039 ; s in the blue box, and bring it into the kitchen, and I&#039 ; ll put it in a pot of boiling water.&quot ; Right? The noodles. So I go to the panty, I pick up the blue box, and I bring it into the kitchen. She says put it in the boiling water. Take it, open up the blue bottle, put it in. It was soap. FERNHEIMER: Oh no! (laughter) SHAPIRA: It was kosher soap. Kosher things came in blue boxes. So all of the sudden, bubbles. FERNHEIMER: (laughter) SHAPIRA: Can you believe--can you picture what it was like? In the stove with all the big pots of food, and the bubbles, they were going everywhere, into the chicken soup, into the--ah! It was all--but no soup that day. (laughter) But I&#039 ; ll never forget the look on everybody&#039 ; s face, my sisters-in-law are in the kitchen helping too, and here am I with the blue box. Anything kosher in those days came in blue boxes. FERNHEIMER: So what--did--did your mother-in-law try to maintain kashrut? SHAPIRA: Did she what? FERNHEIMER: Did she keep kosher? SHAPIRA: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And did you all keep kosher? SHAPIRA: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: In Harrodsburg? SHAPIRA: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: So how--where did the food come from? Louisville? SHAPIRA: Louisville. Every Sunday, my husband and I would go to the kosher deli here, and there was a Jewish, uh, grocery store as well that kept kosher food. I&#039 ; d wait for my husband, I&#039 ; d give him a list, and he&#039 ; d go and pick it all up. We&#039 ; d put the--the things might spoil, we&#039 ; d put those in the basement. There was a barrel of ice, and we&#039 ; d keep the kosher meat down there until we were ready to leave and come back to Harrodsburg. FERNHEIMER: And how long did it take to get from Harrodsburg to Louisville, then? SHAPIRA: About almost two hours. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SHAPIRA: Seventy-three miles. FERNHEIMER: In two hours. SHAPIRA: And at that point in time, originally, there was no expressway. It was just a two-lane highway. And then eventually, they had a four-lane highway. FERNHEIMER: Mm. SHAPIRA: But there was no expressways then. FERNHEIMER: So how long were you involved with the business in Harrodsburg? You in the-- SHAPIRA: --with the business? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SHAPIRA: I had very little involvement, other than just listening, and, you know, and I did take people, every time I was a guest, I took them to Bardstown, and we had a tour, very proud of the place. We had a tour. And as far as physically involved, no. FERNHEIMER: Uh-- SHAPIRA: --remember when they began. I remember the whole story, but you probably know that story. FERNHEIMER: I kind of want to hear you tell it, though, of the brothers, um, cause, by the time you had married, they&#039 ; d already started the br--the distilling business, right? And-- SHAPIRA: Well, we got married in &#039 ; 38. But the distillery started in &#039 ; 34. And I told you how I met Dave, and, uh, I went out to see the distillery, and the office was, like, uh, the size of a garage. And I went up to look and see how it was made. But other than that, I don&#039 ; t think I had any physi--emotional or mental--no mental things. I didn&#039 ; t know anything about it. All I knew was what I heard or what I saw. And I did not take part in--only in the social part, or taking people out to tour the building. And they had people who would take you out and explain everything, and--and other than that, I don&#039 ; t think I had any physical things with the distillery. Dave, of course, did. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Tell me what you--what you heard from Dave, and what his experience was being involved, kind of from the ground up? SHAPIRA: In the building--in the--in the--in the--well, we lived in Harrodsburg with two children at the end. And what I knew about the business is that--are you trying to find it? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Well, and just, what it was like--I mean, David was--so the--at the point in time that you and David were married and running the business in Harrodsburg, there were--there were both things happening at the same time. There was still the retail part of things, right? In Harrodsburg, the stores. But also, this distilling part had already started up. So I guess I&#039 ; m curious about how he divided his time between those two enterprises, between the distillery and the store. SHAPIRA: You&#039 ; re talking about my husband? FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. SHAPIRA: Well, at that point in time, Eddie was living in Bardstown, Eddie. And he was in charge of the--the distillery. Basically, they left Eddie Shapira there to run. But you must remember at that point in time, there was one warehouse, the little office, and another building that they built to make the bourbon. But bourbon ha--to be sold as bourbon, I think Judy might have told you, it has to be in a barrel for two years in--in the store rooms for two years. So the more they made, the more warehouses they need to store the barrels. So that&#039 ; s how the business, your seeing it today, it&#039 ; s an amazing business. And in fact, they make it in Louisville, a lot of it, and truck it out to Bardstown to be put in barrels. FERNHEIMER: That&#039 ; s after the fire, right? That they-- SHAPIRA: What, honey? FERNHEIMER: --they started making more of it in Louisville after the fire, correct? SHAPIRA: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, so I guess, can you tell me, was your mother-in-law-- SHAPIRA: --should put-- FERNHEIMER: --was--oh, you want to put that back in? (laughter) SHAPIRA: Without me and my hands. This is, like, six months old, eight. Put it in, right? Wa--wasn&#039 ; t it? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And about--yeah, about the distillery. SHAPIRA: But when I first went up there and saw it, the office would look like a garage, about the size of a garage. And the distillery, you had to go upstairs to look into this big barrel where they had all the ingredients that you used. You know, the wheat and the rye, soaking in water. Huge tubs, and the bubbles were coming up over the top. So were the flies. I took my sister there, she goes, &quot ; Oh! I wouldn&#039 ; t drink that whiskey. Look at all the flies that are on it.&quot ; And then they showed us the still where all the liquids had stayed there forty-eight hours, I think. And then it was piped over to the distillery, where the water was--the grain was taken out of the water. And what you had left was alcohol. And the alcohol had to go into the barrels to become bourbon. So I could go on a long time about the process. But I&#039 ; m sure as you--did Judy tell you anything? FERNHEIMER: I--the--the--I--sh--I didn&#039 ; t hear from Judy as much about the process. I&#039 ; m curious about, um-- SHAPIRA: But the--that was the process. It was a big tub, stayed there for--for--to the grain, you know, forty-eight hours. And then it went through the process, taking out the grain, and in the still, what you had was bourbon. But not really bourbon until it aged in barrels. The liquid had to wait in barrels for two years. And after that, it was taken out of the barrels, put in bottles, and that&#039 ; s what you had. But the older--the longer it stayed in the barrel, the better it was. So until they were able to sell it, it was three years before they could put it in a bottle to sell. And the longer it was in the barrel, the more expensive it was. FERNHEIMER: Right. Can you pause a moment? [Pause in recording.] FERNHEIMER: Was Annie involved in the distillery business at all? Can I ask? SHAPIRA: She advised. I mean, she listened. And advised them, probably. But she really didn&#039 ; t know anything about the bourbon business-- FERNHEIMER: --um-- SHAPIRA: --but they respected her and included her in all their meetings-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- SHAPIRA: --and remember I told you on Saturday night, all the boys met in the breakfast room, and she listened. I think they respected her, but I don&#039 ; t think she knew anything about the bourbon business. That was--that was where they took their money from selling--they sold all the stores. Or they closed them down, rather. They didn&#039 ; t sell. They just closed them down. And instead of putting money into that business, each of the fi--am I talking more than I should? FERNHEIMER: No, you&#039 ; re fine. SHAPIRA: Well, each of the boys took ten thousand dollars. The bank--let me go back, quickly tell you, the bank called the Shapira boys, and they said there was a distillery abandoned. This is now after Prohibition. The--the--getting to start working at distilleries again. And as I understand it, the bank called the five brothers and said there&#039 ; s a man here, does business at the bank, and he says there&#039 ; s an abandoned distillery, and he&#039 ; d like to open up that distillery, but he doesn&#039 ; t have enough money. And he wondered if the Shapira brothers would help him with the money, open up the distillery, get a distiller, a man who can run it, knows how--the business. And would the Shapira boys like to go in business with him? That&#039 ; s the--so the bank said, &quot ; We will all talk to the Shapira boys.&quot ; So each of the Shapira boys put up ten thousand dollars, the bank put up ten thousand dollars. That man wound up with ten thousand dollars, and they opened up the distillery. They found--his name was--what&#039 ; s his name, Charlie--Charles--oh, Charlie, Charlie--he became the, uh, director of the ma--operator of the distillery. Charlie DeSpain. D-e-S-p-a-i-n. And he opened up the distillery, became the manager of the distillery, the Sha--Shapira brothers know nothing, Charlie did. And they opened up the distillery, and before long, after two years, they have barrels of bourbon. And that&#039 ; s how it all began. FERNHEIMER: And so you said that most of the time, they came into Louisville on Saturday night--on Saturday, the brothers came to Louisville. And--and that they kept Annie, their mom, involved in the process-- SHAPIRA: --yes-- FERNHEIMER: --but she wasn&#039 ; t decision making. But she-- SHAPIRA: Not physically, but mentally and emotionally, she helped. FERNHEIMER: And in your 2007 interview, long--not so long, but a while ago. SHAPIRA: Now say that again. FERNHEIMER: When you were interviewed in 2007, when you--in the interview you gave in 2007-- SHAPIRA: --I did-- FERNHEIMER: --you did? SHAPIRA: I didn&#039 ; t know that. (laughter) FERNHEIMER: The one in-- at the University of Louisville. SHAPIRA: I can&#039 ; t remember where it went. (laughter) FERNHEIMER: Um, you said a couple of things about your mother-in-law that I want to ask you about. SHAPIRA: Okay. FERNHEIMER: One was you said she would say, &quot ; Boys, children, you have five fingers on your hands.&quot ; SHAPIRA: That&#039 ; s right. FERNHEIMER: &quot ; If you lose one finger, you can&#039 ; t function as well, so you have to keep the count.&quot ; SHAPIRA: That&#039 ; s right. FERNHEIMER: And, um, that that was something she said over and over again, and something that you quote. SHAPIRA: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: And you&#039 ; ve described the family later in that interview as &quot ; the most unusual family that I had ever met or heard of,&quot ; because when have you ever heard of five brothers who agree. Um, and--and that that seems to me a really powerful story of family. I wonder if there were some other--uh, if you told me some great ones about the blinking eye--(laughter)--and--and what she didn&#039 ; t like. But are there other powerful memories you have of your mother-in-law? SHAPIRA: My mother-in-law? Yes. Uh, I was living, of course, in Canada, uh, Ottawa. You know, my hometown, 99 Powell Avenue. But anyhow, my mother-in-law came to visit. Wha--when we became engaged, my mother-in-law came with George, and the chauffer, and a Cadillac, and George Ray. George Ray was a black man who worked for my mother-in-law, and met his wife there, and they married. But George Ray was a chauffeur for my mother-in-law, stoked the furnace, cleaned the house, grocery shopped, and took my little mother-in-law anywhere she wanted to go in the Cadillac. So she wants to--she&#039 ; s coming into Louisville for my wedding. At that point in time, the Dione quintuplets were born. Are you familiar? FERNHEIMER: No. SHAPIRA: You did not know anything about Dione--well, north of Can--north of Ottawa, up in Northern Canada, in this little bitty town, a woman, a French Canadian, had five babies at one time, the quintuplets. You never heard--you&#039 ; re kidding. FERNHEIMER: Unh-uh. SHAPIRA: Honestly? FERNHEIMER: Honestly! I&#039 ; m learning as you speak. SHAPIRA: I could stay here for hours! You&#039 ; d make me go home. You need to get your lunch, or go out and get lunch and bring it here. Okay, it&#039 ; s ten to one. Anyhow, up in this little northern town of about two hundred people, this woman, French Canadian, had five children. They were known as the quintuplets. The Dione, D-i-o-n-e [sic] quintuplets. Now here they are. One doctor, five babies at one time, born in a little house, barely two rooms in there. So it was a miracle! And everybody from all over, all the news people who were coming up to write about them, and the medical fraternities were coming up to write about these little bitty babies. I think the ol--the--if I recall correctly, the biggest one was two pounds eight ounces, and there were five of them. And I think altogether, they weighed about fourt--thirteen pounds. FERNHEIMER: Whoa! SHAPIRA: So it became a place where everybody went. It was an oddity, like going to a museum. So my mother-in-law, the little--my mother-in-law says to George Ray, the chauffer, &quot ; I want to see the quintuplets.&quot ; And here she is, ninety years old. E--so, she--I couldn&#039 ; t go because I was getting engaged and having a big party, so she takes George Ray, and she goes up way north, North Bay, to see the quintuplets. Can you imagine, this little old lady? FERNHEIMER: (laughter) She&#039 ; s, like, ninety at the time? SHAPIRA: Uh-huh. FERNHEIMER: Well, and what did she say when she came back? SHAPIRA: They came the same day. FERNHEIMER: Wow. SHAPIRA: They went up to see, it was bout two, three hundred miles. Early in the morning, she leaves, she goes to see the quintuplets, and they&#039 ; re only on display at certain days--certain hours of the day. They have a nurse with the babies, maybe two, and they showed them at a certain hour, and she looked at the babies, and she looks, comes home the same day. FERNHEIMER: Did she have anything to say about the experience? Did she say-- SHAPIRA: Yeah, she says--I said, &quot ; Mother, why are you doing--&quot ; She says, &quot ; Anna, it&#039 ; s a once--.&quot ; She had a little accent. She says &quot ; It once in a lifetime.&quot ; She says, &quot ; How often would you have five babies, and only being two hundred miles away?&quot ; This is how she&#039 ; d act, like I&#039 ; m so--how could you do this? How could you not go and see these five babies? So she did. FERNHEIMER: Did she speak mostly English, or did she-- SHAPIRA: She spoke English all the time, perfectly as far--but with a little accent. FERNHEIMER: Did she speak Yiddish as well? SHAPIRA: She spoke sh--uh, I never heard her speak it that much. But she spoke it. FERNHEIMER: Did you speak Yiddish? SHAPIRA: I--I wish I could. I&#039 ; m not demeaning it in any way, but I didn&#039 ; t speak either. I understood most of it. FERNHEIMER: Did your parents speak, or no? SHAPIRA: What, honey? FERNHEIMER: Did your parents speak Yiddish or no? SHAPIRA: No. FERNHEIMER: No. SHAPIRA: But they spoke English. Every once in a while, there were Jewish expressions, you know, that you use, and--(laughter)--I think one of them I remember the most is oy vey tze [sic] mir. You know that one? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SHAPIRA: (laughter) That means &quot ; Oh my God,&quot ; doesn&#039 ; t it? Are you Jewish? FERNHEIMER: I am. SHAPIRA: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: Um, I don&#039 ; t speak Yiddish, but my grandmother did. Does. Did. SHAPIRA: Your parents? FERNHEIMER: Mm, my father&#039 ; s parents are German, were German. Or they&#039 ; ve passed. Uh, so no, they spoke German. SHAPIRA: So you live here, and your last name is-- FERNHEIMER: --Fernheimer. Fernheimer. SHAPIRA: Fernheimer. FERNHEIMER: Very German. Um, but my mother&#039 ; s family came from Russia. SHAPIRA: Are your mother and dad here, living here? FERNHEIMER: No, but they&#039 ; re in--(laughter)--they&#039 ; re in Maryland. They&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; re in Maryland. That&#039 ; s where I grew up. SHAPIRA: Oh, that&#039 ; s where. Okay. FERNHEIMER: Um, yeah. Let me come back to this idea of family, and that commitment to family that Annie instilled. Um, do you--how do you think this strong commitment to family and consensus is the-- SHAPIRA: How the--just come louder, because-- FERNHEIMER: --sure-- SHAPIRA: --I hate it but-- FERNHEIMER: How--how did her--how did the commitment to family that she instilled in--in the business and in the brothers influence the next generation--Max and Harry? SHAPIRA: How did they connect in the business? How do you--what was their part in it? FERNHEIMER: How did--how did Annie&#039 ; s values of you&#039 ; ve got to keep the count-- SHAPIRA: My mother-in-law&#039 ; s values? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. That idea of keeping the count and--and taking care of your brothers. And how did that influence the next generation--Max, Harry--in the way they-- SHAPIRA: --oh, I know what you&#039 ; re trying to say. Yeah. I think it was a big influence, uh, because Eddie was Max&#039 ; s father, and David, Harry&#039 ; s father. And they accepted them--it was sort of a--a--a known thing, that the children, the boys, would take over. Now the girls--um, my daughter got married early. She was not interested in a--but your husband was. So when she married her husband, they moved to Bardstown and lived there for about two years. But Armand Ostroff, Miriam&#039 ; s husband, was an accountant, and he had a degree in accountant--he&#039 ; s an accountant, CPA, and a--and an attorney. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SHAPIRA: So I would say that he was better off. He was a kind of a man, who think--I think had to be in charge of his business. And to work with five boys was not easy. I would say it wasn&#039 ; t easy with anyone but the family. So he came back. He lived in Harrodsburg--I mean, in Bardstown two years, and then he came back to Louisville, and went into business for himself. FERNHEIMER: Mm. So it was hard for him. SHAPIRA: Right. FERNHEIMER: And Miriam wasn&#039 ; t interested at all? SHAPIRA: But Harry, Miriam&#039 ; s husband--and David--unfortunately, Harry passed away two years ago. And Armand went into business for himself. That&#039 ; s my family. And Armand passed away two months ago. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I&#039 ; m so sorry. I didn&#039 ; t realize. SHAPIRA: You didn&#039 ; t know that. So he was involved in the business for a while, and into business for himself. And he passed away very suddenly. He had Alzheimer&#039 ; s. FERNHEIMER: Oh, I&#039 ; m sorry to hear that. That&#039 ; s a hard disease. SHAPIRA: So that&#039 ; s what happened this past week. And as far as involvement, you mean, you&#039 ; re talking about Harry? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Harry and Max. Do they have the same sense of sticking-togetherness-- SHAPIRA: --yeah, I-- FERNHEIMER: --with his father, David, and the other brothers? SHAPIRA: I think so. FERNHEIMER: And how did that influence your family life, being part of this big, family enterprise? SHAPIRA: Well, with the five brothers, we stuck to--I mean, we always had family things together, Passover, holidays. Uh, I&#039 ; m trying to think what else. Uh, we--Max had a--uh, married into Ellen--it was Ellen. And Ellen came from the temple. FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm-- SHAPIRA: She&#039 ; s Reform. And we were not. So Max starts going to the Reform synagogue, where the rest of us were going to Keneseth Israel or Adath Jeshurun--Adath Jeshurun, mainly. But Max and his family belonged to the temple. So that made not a rift, a--a separation because of their--Ellen wanted to be with her family, naturally, and Harry wanted to be with Adath Jeshurun or Keneseth. So the big difference was, between--and the only big difference I saw was in the religion. FERNHEIMER: And the way they observed? SHAPIRA: But that didn&#039 ; t stop us from being a family. FERNHEIMER: Ah. SHAPIRA: Except at the holiday time. (laughter) We--Adath Jeshurun--like, for instance, on Yom Kippur, stayed all day, with Max and his family, they were out at five in the afternoon. So Yom Kippur, we weren&#039 ; t together. FERNHEIMER: You couldn&#039 ; t do break-fast together. Got it. Um, I wonder if you could talk--in your earlier interview, you mentioned the women who were working on the bottling line. Um, I think you were talking about the bottling process itself, but I&#039 ; m wondering if you can tell me a little bit more about the women--the women involved in the bottling, and if there are other ways that women-- SHAPIRA: I don&#039 ; t remember any other place, but in--in the bottling line. FERNHEIMER: And were any of them-- SHAPIRA: They had to have a supervisor for the ladies, but I don&#039 ; t remember too much about that. But on each side of this machinery, I guess you&#039 ; d call it, where the bottles came down, and were automatically filled, and on each side of this--I guess you&#039 ; d call it, like, a running board? What would you call it, where all the bottles were on a--the bottles were filled-- FERNHEIMER: Like, a conveyor belt? SHAPIRA: And they--they were filled, and came over on the top--on the top, the--filled bottles were coming over to you, came down, and you were on the bottling line, and they came on a--on a--a running--like, what do you call a running board? Like, a--uh, that--that runs with the full bottles on it. What do you call it? FERNHEIMER: Is it a conveyor belt? SHAPIRA: We just ca--like, a conveyor. It was a conveyor here, and the bottles were on there, and on each side were women, taking a bottle, pasting on a label, and a stamp. Every bottle had to have a government stamp on it. So these girls on one side, they were putting on the labels. On the other side, they were putting on the stamps. So by the time it got to the end of the runway, or what--what--what-- FERNHEIMER: Conveyor belt? SHAPIRA: What do you call it? By the time they got there, there were bo--boxes overhead. And these boxes ran down from the top. And by the time they got to the bottom, the bottles were ready to put in the boxes. And they were put in the boxes upside down, sealed, and the time and the date was put on it, and it had a conveyor, another conveyor that took them into the warehouse. It was just all done automatically. But the women, the only time I saw women involved was when they were putting the stamps on the bottle, and the labels on the other side. There was one woman in another room who took certain bottles and put blue wax on them, and now those bottles were more expensive than the others. FERNHEIMER: And was she--that woman in the other room, does she taste the bottles? SHAPIRA: No. FERNHEIMER: Or she just was instructed which ones to put? SHAPIRA: Yeah. But other than that, I don&#039 ; t--didn&#039 ; t see women involved. Uh, I wasn&#039 ; t there all the time. This is just what I--maybe Judy would have known some--did she give the same questions to Judy? FERNHEIMER: Some yes, some no. Obviously, she didn&#039 ; t know about some of the-- SHAPIRA: --fine-- FERNHEIMER: --some--some are the same, and some are different. SHAPIRA: Well, of course, because I&#039 ; m way back before her time. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. If you--so you know a little bit about the project I told you about. SHAPIRA: About what? FERNHEIMER: About the project J.T. and I are doing, the graphic novel. So if you were telling a story about women and bourbon, what was your-- SHAPIRA: Say women in-- FERNHEIMER: If--if you were writing a story about women and bourbon-- SHAPIRA: --uh-huh-- FERNHEIMER: --what would your first chapter be? SHAPIRA: The only women physically that I saw, what you saw. Uh, Max had a secretary, and she was very helpful to him. And in--in the office. And the--you know, they have a building that&#039 ; s the office. And it had a staff in there of people, but I didn&#039 ; t think that they were physically involved--you know, hands on. They were just in the--in the reco--keeping records and--of all--everything that happened. And other than that, I don&#039 ; t know or can&#039 ; t think of any woman who was involved. There was no family of women involved. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. SHAPIRA: To my knowledge, I didn&#039 ; t live in Bardstown, and I don&#039 ; t know if there are any other people who were physically involved, I don&#039 ; t think. FERNHEIMER: Are there any stories or legends from the bourbon business that you want to share? SHAPIRA: Trying to think. No, I think I told you everything there is to know about the bourbon business. There was a Jewish family way back involved, in the Jew--very well known. What&#039 ; s the name of the top brand of the business? FERNHEIMER: The bourbon? SHAPIRA: What, honey? FERNHEIMER: The Bernheim family? Or was there another family-- SHAPIRA: The Bernheim family? No. They were involved at some point. There&#039 ; s another Jewish family from Canada that was involved. FERNHEIMER: Oh, the Seagrams? SHAPIRA: Seagram family originated in Montreal. FERNHEIMER: And the Bronfman. SHAPIRA: Yeah. And I knew a couple of them personally, but not as far as bourbon is concerned. FERNHEIMER: You knew them socially from Canada? You knew them socially while you were growing up in Canada? SHAPIRA: The family were Montreal, and I knew them personally. And they had a daughter my age, and we belonged to the same sorority in McGill University. But then I got married, so, you know, two years later, after I graduated, life began to change. I met Harry, I met Dave, and I knew that that&#039 ; s what was going to be. As far as the bourbon business is concerned there, I--I only knew about it, and I knew that they were very wealthy, and that they had started this business. And that&#039 ; s basically--wasn&#039 ; t interested in the bourbon business at that point. FERNHEIMER: What--what was your friend&#039 ; s name, from Canada? Your--the friend in Canada? Who--who-- SHAPIRA: My family? FERNHEIMER: Your friend, the one you just mentioned who was involved. I don&#039 ; t know if she was a Seagram or a Bronfman. You mentioned your friend from the sorority at McGill. SHAPIRA: Yes. FERNHEIMER: What was her name? SHAPIRA: Oh, her name was--from the family--what&#039 ; d you say the name of the bourbon was? FERNHEIMER: Bronfman or-- SHAPIRA: Bronfman. FERNHEIMER: Bronfman. What was her first name? SHAPIRA: My friend&#039 ; s name? Oh, I&#039 ; m trying to remember. So many years ago. FERNHEIMER: (laughter) I can imagine. SHAPIRA: But, uh, we were good friends, and I--but I moved away. And af--you know, after I moved, I don&#039 ; t think I kept up the relationship very well. FERNHEIMER: You--um, you told a couple of stories of the role of, uh, of African Americans at, uh, Jewish Hospitals, and, um, and Annie&#039 ; s driver. And I wonder-- SHAPIRA: Oh, there&#039 ; s one thing I&#039 ; ll say. My mother-in-law had this black man. He chauffeured her around. And the Jewish name for a black man is a shokher. Are you familiar with that? FERNHEIMER: Shokher? I haven&#039 ; t heard shokher. SHAPIRA: A shokher. FERNHEIMER: I mean, I know shokher is--yeah. SHAPIRA: A shvartza is a woman. A shvartza is a black woman. FERNHEIMER: Oh, shvartza--yeah, I have heard that name. SHAPIRA: And a black man is a shokher. So my mother-in-law had this man, this shokher, that she called him. Any time she wanted anything, she&#039 ; d say, &quot ; Call the shokher.&quot ; His name was George Ray, but she referred to him as the shokher. So I wrote my mother, my dad, and I said, &quot ; Mother, Aunt Ray married into a family that&#039 ; s very wealthy. They have a chauffeur for the car.&quot ; Chauffeur. I thought when she said &quot ; shokher,&quot ; she was referring to &quot ; chauffeur,&quot ; driving a car, and he did drive a car. FERNHEIMER: (laughter) SHAPIRA: So I wrote my mother to tell her this story to--(gasp)--and Ray married into a very wealthy family. They&#039 ; ve got this chauffeur for the car. Shokher was a black man also, and that was a famous story in the family, that Anne thought that Aunt Ray married into this very wealthy family who could afford a chauffeur for the car. FERNHEIMER: (laughter) I--so that&#039 ; s one way that, uh, African Americans have come, sort of, into the industry on the sidelines. Uh, that was recently-- SHAPIRA: --that&#039 ; s right-- FERNHEIMER: --a story in the New York Times about, uh, a slave, an African American slave, who had a role at Jack Daniels in the distillation process. Are there any other stories that you&#039 ; ve heard about women or African Americans or other Jews who were involved in bourbon or alcohol that you think we should know about? SHAPIRA: Afro-Americans, or Jews? Not really. Uh, eh, I was trying to think of it last night. Um, if I knew anybody Afro-American or any Jewish women involved. I&#039 ; m sure they were, but I&#039 ; m sure I didn&#039 ; t pay much attention. Um, the heads of all the distilleries, I don&#039 ; t know any Jewish person or anyone who could go into that category at all. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. W--what was--what can you tell us about the experience of these five Jewish brothers running a distillery, in what was then and now a mostly non-Jewish industry of bourbon? SHAPIRA: Well, I think the fact that we had the stores in Bardstown. That--they were in the--they were in the right place at the right time, because Prohibition was over. And they were by accident, I guess, they were asked by the bank if they would like to give money, invest their money in the distillery. So at that point in time, we called it Uncle Sam--what was his name, that began opening shopping centers all over? What was his name? FERNHEIMER: You described it as--as Walmart in the earlier--earlier in your-- SHAPIRA: Walmart. The Walmarts began coming into these little towns, and before you know it, uh, Louisville--I mean, the Louisville stores, any of the stores, would not have business, because the farmers and everybody would be going to Walmarts. So they closed the stores on purpose. They did it on purpose, not because they didn&#039 ; t have enough going on. But the future was Walmart. There was no future for the Louisville stores. So they closed them and took that money and invested it in the distilleries. That&#039 ; s how it happened. FERNHEIMER: To what extent do you think that the success they had with all those businesses, all those stores all across Kentucky influenced the way they did business at the distillery itself, or how successful they were able to become? You talked about how your husband insisted that you go to the church social. SHAPIRA: Yeah. FERNHEIMER: --to mix with the customers. Do you think that influence--or how do you think that influenced the--the way they did the--the distillation business? SHAPIRA: How do you think--say that again? FERNHEIMER: Sorry. It&#039 ; s a kind of complicated question, but so you have these five brothers, all spread all across the state of Kentucky-- SHAPIRA: --right-- FERNHEIMER: --with these small stores. And even though the stores are closed, they have these networks, right, of customers and relationships that they&#039 ; ve built over the years with the families in those towns. And I guess I&#039 ; m trying to ask, how those relationships, right, the chu--all those church socials you went to, uh, if--how that influenced the way they did business once they switched over to the bourbon business. Did--did that influence-- SHAPIRA: Well, let&#039 ; s see. Uh, they knew that Eddie would be the f--the one to take care of it, because he was living in the--in the--in the area. He was living in the right--uh, in the right atmosphere, the right place at the right time, because Prohibition was over. And once Prohibition was over, and they had their--someone approached them to put their money in there, it was not diff--difficult to close the stores. They all became in--involved in it. In closing the stores in Harrodsburg, um, Dave would go into Bardstown. It was only a f--what, thirty, thirty-five miles. And George would--George and his wife decided to move to Louisville. So he moved to Louisville and more or less retired, except going to Bardstown whenever he felt like going to Bardstown. In the meantime, we had a building downtown on Main Street. And that became the focal point at the beginning of the s--before they closed the stores, they had this big building, 528 West Main, and that became like a warehouse for all the--all the stores until they closed. And after they closed, then it just became the office downtown for the dis--for the distillery to have a downtown office, other than the one in Bardstown. So 528, from being just a place for the five--for the stores to have their merchandise, became the office for the Heaven Hill. After they closed the store, that became their office, at 528 Main Street. Am I making it clear? FERNHEIMER: Yeah, yeah. SHAPIRA: They had, at the beginning, the store was 500 Main Street, but they sold that. That was up near Sixth and Seventh and Main, this one is near Fifth and Main. Have you been down to--you have not? FERNHEIMER: Not in a while. I haven&#039 ; t been--I have not--I&#039 ; ve been to the--the Heritage Experience in Bardstown, but I have not yet been to the Evan Williams Experience. SHAPIRA: That&#039 ; s downtown. You girls ought to go. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, so did your role change over the years? How did your role change? SHAPIRA: Say that again. FERNHEIMER: How did your role change over the years? SHAPIRA: My role? Well, I was just basically a mother. Uh, I was always involved in National Council for Jewish Women, the synagogue, and all that stuff. And how did my role change with regard to the distillery? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And just--or just, uh, you&#039 ; ve lived, God bless--(laughter)--a long life. How has your role in the business, and also in the Jewish community, changed over the years? SHAPIRA: Uh, when I moved here, I didn&#039 ; t know anything, anybody, you know? Just the family. And, um, I immediately joined National Council of Jewish Women. And there was another girl who was a dietician, also a Jewish girl. And I found out about her, and I called her, and we became friends. Still friends. FERNHEIMER: What&#039 ; s her name? SHAPIRA: What, honey? FERNHEIMER: What--uh, what&#039 ; s her name? SHAPIRA: Oh. Suzanne Hammill. She is--as we speak, she&#039 ; s getting ready to move to Chicago. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SHAPIRA: She&#039 ; s a widow, she has two children, one in Chicago, and she&#039 ; s moving up there. All these years. I met her in 1950, when I moved here. So she&#039 ; s moving, at this point. But how did my--what was the question again? How did I-- FERNHEIMER: How did your role in the business and/or the Jewish community change over the years? SHAPIRA: I had no role at all in the business. Uh, a couple of times, I think I planned parties for the family, and so on and so forth. Uh, business-wise, no. FERNHEIMER: And i--in the Jewish community? So you said you-- SHAPIRA: The Jewish community, I was president of the Hadas--Hadassah one time. Um, been very, uh, active in the building where I lived. Uh, I was always active, raising mons for--money for the National Council for, uh, what do you call it here? The-- FERNHEIMER: Jewish women? Or? SHAPIRA: No, the Jewish Federation. FERNHEIMER: Federation, okay. SHAPIRA: The Federation. I was always active with that, and had many fundraiser affairs. And I guess--I remember, I got the linen showers for Hadassah. I did the linen showers for the whole thing. And I was just always available if they needed someone to raise money from the women, uh, women or--you know, for the women of Louisville. FERNHEIMER: Um, and kind of related question, how--how would you describe your Jewish identity now, and how it&#039 ; s changed over time? SHAPIRA: I al--I--at this stage of the game--(laughter)--at my age, I--I think my physical involvement is not there. I&#039 ; d like -- I go to whatever they have, and what is there, but I&#039 ; m not doing it like I do the linen showers that I held for different organizations. Um, I have been written up in the paper for a--I put on a pic--a seder at Adath Jeshurun. They took pictures of all that. I had a furniture company bring in a dining room table. I borrowed dishes and everything else from Dil--not Dillard&#039 ; s. What&#039 ; s the dish place here? Anyhow, I put on different--because of being a dietician, because of my involvement with food, I put on a seder. For some people to learn how to put on a seder. That was one of my big things. But I&#039 ; m proud to be Jewish. I&#039 ; m proud of all the things I&#039 ; ve done in--in the community. And what can I say? I feel I&#039 ; ve made a mark someplace. FERNHEIMER: Is there--um, I&#039 ; ve got two short questions I&#039 ; ll ask. SHAPIRA: What, honey? FERNHEIMER: I have two--uh, just a few more questions. Um-- SHAPIRA: That thunder? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. (laughter) It&#039 ; s pretty loud. When you-- SHAPIRA: My girl that&#039 ; s out there and she--she must be hungry. FERNHEIMER: W--we&#039 ; ll wrap up here, I promise. When you--when you told a story about your aunt g--your aunt, uh, Ray and and Gary trying to move things-- SHAPIRA: I told a story? Say that louder, honey. FERNHEIMER: In your--in the last interview you gave, in 2007, you told a story about your Aunt Ray and Gary trying to-- SHAPIRA: About what? FERNHEIMER: Aunt--your Aunt Ray and Gary trying to move into a particular neighborhood, St. John, James Count. Um, but being unable to because the owner refused to sell them the house-- SHAPIRA: --oh, I know what you&#039 ; re ta-- FERNHEIMER: --when he found out when Gary was Jewish. Did you or your husband ever-- SHAPIRA: That was my mother-in-law. FERNHEIMER: That was your mother-in-law. SHAPIRA: When Gary--when they moved here from Springfield, they wanted to get a home in that neighborhood. Third Street? FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. And so it wasn&#039 ; t Gary. SHAPIRA: And because they were--they were Jewish, apparently they had an organization with the--all the tenants, those--and they refused to allow this Jewish person to buy a home there. That&#039 ; s why they bought the house on Third--or on First Street. FERNHEIMER: Did you and your husband ever encounter a similar--did you and David ever encounter similar kinds of discrimination? SHAPIRA: Say that as--I didn&#039 ; t hear. FERNHEIMER: Did you and David ever have similar experiences of discrimination? SHAPIRA: You mean in Harrodsburg? FERNHEIMER: Or wherever. SHAPIRA: As being Jewish? Uh, not really, that I paid attention to. FERNHEIMER: Um-- SHAPIRA: You know, because we were Jewish, you&#039 ; re asking me if we were not accepted someplace, or-- FERNHEIMER: Yeah, or if you experienced some kind of discrimination. SHAPIRA: No. FERNHEIMER: No? SHAPIRA: I can&#039 ; t say I did. FERNHEIMER: And do you think David&#039 ; s Jewishness influenced the way he ran his business? SHAPIRA: I--that&#039 ; s a question, isn&#039 ; t it? No, I think the people he did business with were all Christians. He was accepted everywhere. He was a Mason. Uh, and I see--I can&#039 ; t think of any animosity or anti-Semitism. But then on the same hand, same subject, we did not seek out Christian friends, because we had enough Jewish friends. And in this little town, I was accepted in to the woman&#039 ; s club. Uh, I don&#039 ; t know whether I should say that, uh, that had anything to do with being Jewish. It&#039 ; s that I was one of the women that, you know, my hus--I--I don&#039 ; t remember anything, any anti--anti-Semitism in that town. And as far as Louisville here is concerned, I live in this community of a hundred and twenty, you know, over at the Glenview, there are a hundred and twenty apartments. Uh, I think there probably are forty Jewish people over there, and I don&#039 ; t recall having any kind of animosity. Some of my best friends and my neighbors across the way, he&#039 ; s Jewish, she&#039 ; s gentile, but they live at more--they don&#039 ; t go to church and they don&#039 ; t go to synagogue. Wonderful people, and there are quite a--I don&#039 ; t know many couples that are basically one Jewish one Christian in the building. There are a few, but I don&#039 ; t see any animosity, any anti-Semitism. That&#039 ; s the word that&#039 ; s-- FERNHEIMER: Um, I just had a question that just went out of my mind. Um, were there families that you socialized with, or were close with, um, over the years? Either in the business, or was it mostly that you--did you mostly socialize with the other families? SHAPIRA: It was mostly family. Uh, the o--Charlie DeSpain was the manager of the distill--distillery. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. SHAPIRA: He was a devout Catholic. His wife was killed in an automobile accident. He was left with four children, four girls. And we were friends. Uh, and over the years, I&#039 ; ve never experienced any kind of animosity. FERNHEIMER: And you talked about how the family, it was so unusual because they never disagreed. That was back in 2007. Has anything changed? Has there been a moment where there&#039 ; s been some disagreements in the family, either over business or other things? SHAPIRA: Well, uh, what--what&#039 ; s happened was, nineteen--uh, sorry, 1934, when the distilleries started, they closed the store. And so we--the wives, as far as I knew--Sylvia and Ed lived in Bardstown. Eddie bec--uh, Sylvia became very much involved in the society in Bardstown. And as women, we were only there to cook and be our husbands&#039 ; companions. They had--if they had any kind of affairs where the women could go, you know, as they put on conventions in Bardstown, different things like that. We were involved, only because we were present--present. But we didn&#039 ; t--really didn&#039 ; t do anything physically. FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. Is there anything else you want to share that I haven&#039 ; t had--anything else you&#039 ; d like to add that I haven&#039 ; t had the chance to ask you? SHAPIRA: About the role of women in the bourbon business? Is that-- FERNHEIMER: No, just anything that I haven&#039 ; t asked you that you&#039 ; d like to share on record about being Jewish in Louisville, about having moved from Canada, your experiences, anything, um, that I--I just didn&#039 ; t ask about. SHAPIRA: You didn&#039 ; t--I think I&#039 ; ve told you my all--whole experience, and how immediately I was a citizen of Harrodsburg, this little town. And they treated Harry--uh, Dave, and I with the greatest respect, invited us to their weddings, and, uh, to the church socials. Uh, my best friends there were lovely women that I associated with. But every week, we came to Louisville, until our--basically our social life was in Louisville. And I love my neighbors. He was, uh--(laughter)--it&#039 ; s getting late. My little girl&#039 ; s up there, she must be starving. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, that&#039 ; s my last question, so-- SHAPIRA: Two o&#039 ; clock, almost two. So what I started to tell you about-- FERNHEIMER: I just asked if there was anything you hadn&#039 ; t told me that you wanted to. SHAPIRA: I even told you about the story at the hospital. Don&#039 ; t put that on tape. (laughter) Uh, I think I&#039 ; ve been very fortunate. Uh, my little daughter was accepted, Miriam. Uh, she had--went to kindergarten with the Christian girls. They invited her over to spend the night, like everybody else. Um, I associated with the women, uh, in women&#039 ; s club. Like I said before, my sister-in-law lived in Danville--George, his wife. Eddie and his wife lived in--in Harrods--in Bardstown. So basically, my social life, with Jewish people, with--with my sisters-in-law. I didn&#039 ; t have to reach out anywhere. I didn&#039 ; t--I&#039 ; m just happy that I was well and able to be a good wife. David was a wonderful husband. I had two children, my son was an amazing young man. Harry, you&#039 ; ve probably been told from Judy. I avoided talking about it because I felt she told you all about Harry. And my son was very fortunate. And Judy has been an amazing daughter-in-law. Every day, I would contact, every week, dinner. And so I haven&#039 ; t had to reach out for more. I do at home, at my building, I play bridge twice a week. I have this group of girls, uh, physically that way, see them. We have a social life of our own. And luckily I&#039 ; m on my two feet. I&#039 ; m a hundred and two, and--(laughter)--I&#039 ; m kind of proud of that. FERNHEIMER: I think that&#039 ; s worth being proud of. SHAPIRA: I kid when I say I have eyeglasses and a hearing aid, but I&#039 ; ve got all my teeth. FERNHEIMER: (laughter) I am so delighted and honored that you were willing and able to spend this afternoon talking to me. SHAPIRA: This isn&#039 ; t going on TV, is it? FERNHEIMER: N--no. (laughter) It&#039 ; ll be--it&#039 ; ll be in the library. Um, but it&#039 ; s not going on national broadcast or anything. SHAPIRA: Good. FERNHEIMER: But I just want to close the interview and say thank you so much for making it possible to talk to you. I&#039 ; ve learned a lot. SHAPIRA: Well, and I hope--and is this going in a be--book or what? FERNHEIMER: Yes. Uh, well-- SHAPIRA: Who&#039 ; s writing the book? FERNHEIMER: Well, I&#039 ; m going to--we&#039 ; ll stop the camera and I&#039 ; ll tell you more about the project ha-- [End of interview.] 1 All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh260_jk030_shapira_ohm.xml 2016oh260_jk030_shapira_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh260_jk030_shapira_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Anne Edelstein Shapira, July 25, 2016 Description An account of the resource Anne Edelstein Shapira was born in Ottawa, Canada in 1914 and her parents were immigrants from Manchester, England. She visited the United States in 1934 and 1936 to see her Aunt Rachel in Louisville. Rachel was married to the eldest Shapira brother and Anne would stay with the Shapira family while she was in Louisville. On Anne’s second visit, she was offered a job at Jewish Hospital as a nutritionist. While she worked there, she lived in a house next to Jewish Hospital with several other women. She was in charge of planning meals for all the private patients and buying ingredients for their meals each morning. She worked closely with the head nurse at Jewish Hospital. The head nurse was also one of the women Anne shared the house with. Anne was treated fairly and with respect during her time at the hospital. Anne worked at Jewish Hospital for about two years, and then she married David Shapira in 1938. She met David while she was visiting her aunt and staying with the Shapira family. David Shapira managed two clothing stores in Harrodsburg, Kentucky and eventually opened the Heaven Hill Distillery with his four brothers. The bank came to the five brothers to ask if they would be interested in opening the distillery with another man. The brothers, the man, and the bank all put in money in order to reopen the distillery and the Heaven Hill Distillery was born. The Heaven Hill Distillery specialized in the manufacturing of bourbon. Anne was not very involved in either of David’s businesses. She mainly planned parties for the distillery and occasionally worked at the stores on the weekends. She was more active in the community and Jewish organizations. Shapira planned linen showers for Hadassah and put on a seder to teach people how it was done. She was also very active in various fundraising efforts, including raising money for the National Jewish Federation. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh260_jk030 Subject The topic of the resource Louisville (Ky.) Jewish families. Bardstown (Ky.) Danville (Ky.) Harrodsburg (Ky.) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jews--Identity. Religion Judaism. Worship (Judaism) Bourbon whiskey Distilleries--Kentucky Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish leadership--Kentucky Jewish women--Kentucky Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/4c3595a650fd4879913ba3ba6f7dc7ce.jpeg 84dcaf20e6f8a318165b7b2343f5e1fb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Carol Ely Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Morris Weiss Interview Keyword Alten-Schoenbach (Germany) Education, Higher Medical education Jewish Hospital Mobile (Ala.) Emigration and immigration. Immigrants African American physicians Race relations--Kentucky OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh252_jk028 Interview with Morris Weiss, August 1, 2016 2016oh252_jk028 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Family histories. Genealogy Jewish families. Louisville (Ky.) Hospitals Medical care--Kentucky Childhood Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Jewish children Jews--Identity. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Jewish physicians. Alten-Schoenbach (Germany) Education, Higher Medical education Jewish Hospital Mobile (Ala.) Emigration and immigration. Immigrants African American physicians Race relations--Kentucky Morris Weiss Carol Ely 1:|17(5)|30(8)|46(15)|64(12)|77(6)|91(9)|117(3)|136(15)|163(9)|205(6)|228(3)|265(5)|298(11)|326(11)|350(16)|376(6)|396(12)|414(13)|440(8)|462(1)|484(3)|504(3)|531(5)|548(8)|578(8)|605(1)|619(1)|636(12)|651(10)|666(9)|696(16)|714(13)|730(1)|743(3)|762(3)|786(12)|805(3)|827(3)|849(12)|874(8)|889(4)|900(4)|922(7)|935(2)|945(8)|962(6)|976(11)|986(5)|999(2)|1023(5)|1047(14)|1073(4)|1088(3)|1101(5)|1125(4)|1140(9)|1156(1)|1169(10)|1187(9)|1199(4)|1212(1)|1230(6)|1244(1)|1260(14)|1286(2)|1295(15)|1317(2) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253330516&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family background from Alten-Schoenbach, Germany to Louisville, Kentucky Well, I think I’m supposed to say for the tape that, uh, we’re here with Morris Weiss, and, uh, it’s August 1st, 2016. I’m Carol Ely, and we’re talking in Videobred Studios. Morris Weiss begins the interview by discussing his family background dating back to Alten-Schoenbach, Germany and how his uncle, Josef Solomon, emigrated to Louisville, Kentucky in 1863. He tells us how his family became one of the founding families of Jewish Hospital in Louisville, Kentucky when Weiss’s great-uncle Dr. Leon Solomon and a number of other prominent Louisvillian physicians decided to form Jewish Hospital in the winter of 1903. 1847 ; 1863 ; 1894 ; 1904 ; 1921 ; 1933 ; 1954 ; Abraham Flexner Way ; Alten-Schoenbach (Germany) ; Alten-Schoenbach, Germany ; Baldwin Wallace College ; Cardiology ; Chaplin (Ky.) ; Chaplin, Kentucky ; Chestnut Street ; Civil War era ; Dr. Leon Solomon ; Edna Solomon ; Emmet Horine ; Eva Bach ; Floyd and Kentucky Street ; Germany ; Hardin County (Ky.) ; Hardin County, Kentucky ; Heppenheim ; Jewish Hospital ; Josef Solomon ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Male High School ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Mobile, Alabama ; Napoleon Bonaparte ; Reform Jews ; Reform Judaism ; Samuel Brown ; University of Alabama ; Vine Grove Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Genealogy ; Hospitals ; Immigrants ; Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care--Kentucky 17 603 Early childhood in 1940s Louisville, Kentucky Well, where--where did you grow up? Where did you live-- Weiss discusses his early childhood upbringing in Louisville, Kentucky in the 1940s. He details how he was raised in a Reform Jewish household and that the community was largely made up of Jews of all denominations from Eastern Europe. 1840 ; 1860 ; 1888 ; 1910 ; 1937 ; Ashkenazi ; Ashkenazi Jews ; Bach's Stores ; Bardstown Road ; Bonnycastle ; Cherokee Road ; Eastern European ; Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews ; Flood of 1937 ; Haberdashery shops ; Highlands ; Jewish ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Reform Judaism ; Russian Jews ; Tyler Park ; Village Drive Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Genealogy ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 853 University of Michigan in the 1950s / Medical internships Um, just go--going back to your childhood, where'd you go to school? Weiss completed his undergraduate education at the University of Michigan in the 1950s, and then went on to complete his medical internship at the University of Pennsylvania, and finished his internal medicine at Washington University at Barnes Hospital and Washington University in St. Louis. He talks about playing basketball with a few fellow medical school colleagues at the University of Michigan and the University of Pennsylvania and how when they came home to Louisville they continued to play basketball at the JCC (Jewish Community Center). 1962 ; Alan Bernstein ; Arnold Belker ; Barnes Hospital ; Basketball ; Belknap School ; Cardiology ; Evalyn Brown ; Goucher College ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Louisville Male High School ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Mobile, Alabama ; Navajo ; Pennsylvania Hospital ; Reform Jews ; Robert Keisler ; St. Louis (Mo.) ; St. Louis, Missouri ; University of Michigan ; University of Pennsylvania ; Washington University in St. Louis ; YMCA Education, Higher ; Hospitals ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care ; Medical education 38.184700, -85.721027 17 Louisville Male High School 1164 Differences in Jewish observance between Mobile, Alabama and Louisville, Kentucky Was that different from Louisville in your experience? Did you-- Weiss talks about his mother's Jewish upbringing in Mobile, Alabama and how that differed in terms of practice and observance of traditions from his father's Jewish upbringing in Louisville, Kentucky. He mentions how in Alabama, the Jews were financially a lot better off in comparison to the Jews in Louisville, and in Alabama the Jews were a lot more Americanized than the Jews in Louisville (noting how they all only spoke English.) He concludes by mentioning that both of his parents did come from Reform Jewish backgrounds, so that was something that united them. Alabama ; Cherokee Road ; German Jewish ; Kentucky ; Leon Solomon ; Louisiana ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mobile, Alabama ; Reform Jews ; Shreveport, Louisiana Families. ; Family histories. ; Genealogy ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Mobile (Ala.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1321 Parents' involvement in philanthropy So was your mother active in women’s groups? Was she-- Weiss discusses how his mother was on the National Council of Jewish Women, and how she took a particular interest in helping other minority groups and civil rights groups. Weiss then talks about how he is now involved in philanthropy himself, citing how he finished a five-part history of African American medicine in 2014. African American community ; Anti-communist ; Council of Jewish Women ; Liberal ; Louisville National Medical College ; Red Cross Hospital ; Senator Joseph McCarthy African American physicians ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership ; Jewish women ; Jews--Identity. ; Social reformers 17 1485 Family's involvement at Temple Adath Israel and in the Louisville Jewish community I do want to talk about that but I just want to circle back a little bit and finish talking about your family background. Weiss discusses how his family has continuously (for many generations) belonged to Adath Israel, which is a Reform Jewish temple in Louisville, Kentucky. He talks about how when he was a young boy attending Sunday school, he found that most of the teachers were just members of the community, who weren't really versed in theology, so he began seeking out information on his own under the direction of Rabbi Ralk and later Rabbi Waller. He talks about how the Louisville Jewish community at first was quite divided between the Orthodox and Reform communities but toward the 1960s more and more intermarriages took place. 1947 ; 1950s ; 1960s ; Brith Shalom ; Confirmation ; Eastern European Jews ; Intermarriage ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Louisville Male High School ; Orthodox Jews ; Rabbi Ralk ; Rabbi Waller ; Reform Jews ; Temple Adath Israel ; Vietnam Era ; World War II ; World War Two Childhood ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1887 Experiences with anti-Semitism as a student and medical professional Did you, at, at this time, and now we’re talking as, as you were growing up and in medical school, did you experience anti-Semitism in the community? Weiss discusses his experiences with anti-Semitism in medical school and as a medical professional. He talks about how, during his time as an undergraduate student at the University of Pennsylvania while attending a party, another student made a joke about Jews having horns. Weiss then recalls how while he was a board member of the Kentucky Heart Association, he couldn't attend an event held at the Pendennis Club because they didn't allow entrance to Jews. African Americans ; American Heart Association ; Catholic Health Initiative ; Jewish ; Jewish Hospital ; Kentucky Heart Association ; Medical schools ; Pendennis Club ; University of Michigan African Americans--Social conditions. ; Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jews--Identity. ; Louisville (Ky.) 17 2120 Jewish Hospital's involvement in civil rights in the 1950s Well, let’s talk some more about Jewish Hospital. Weiss talks about how Jewish Hospital hired Dr. Jesse Bell (the first African American doctor practicing at a non-African American hospital in that region) in 1951 and Dr. Maurice Rabb, another prominent African American physician. 1951 ; 1962 ; African Americans ; Civil rights ; Dr. Jesse Bell ; Jefferson County Medical Society ; Jewish Hospital ; Maurice Rabb ; Red Cross Hospital African American physicians ; African Americans--Employment. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Hospitals ; Integration ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care ; Race discrimination. ; Race relations--Kentucky 17 http://nkaa.uky.edu/record.php?note_id=791 More information on Dr. Jesse Bell, an African American doctor at Jewish Hospital. 2389 Jewish Hospital's evolution And the Jewish community seems to have always been very proud of Jewish Hospital. Weiss discusses the evolution of Jewish Hospital, noting how Jewish Hospital began as a smaller place for Jewish physicians to practice and had remained primarily Jewish up until modern times, but it has now grown to be loved by the community and is known for its specialization in cardiology. Allan Lansing ; Cardiology ; David Jones ; Dr. Laman Gray ; Flexner ; Humana ; Ian Bloom ; Jewish community ; Jewish Hospital ; Leon Solomon ; Leonard Lang Hospitals ; Jewish physicians. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care 17 2760 His family story (1967-onward) Well, let’s switch gears for a minute and talk about your family. You mentioned a wife and children. Weiss discusses both of his marriages (first to Gladys Lillian August, and then to Terry noting that he does not give her maiden name.) He talks about how after his first divorce, but before his second marriage, he spent thirteen years practicing archeology around the world in places like Egypt and Greece. He discusses how his first wife, Gladys, was raised in an Orthodox Jewish background while his second wife, Terry, was raised Episcopalian. He notes that he doesn't believe that religious differences or variances in observance have divided or made either of his marriages difficult, and that his marriages and family life have simply been based on morals and principles. 1771 ; 1967 ; Alten-Schoenbach ; Archeology ; Baptist ; Conservative Judaism ; Eastern European Jews ; Episcopalian ; German Archives ; Germany ; Gladys Lillian August ; Heppenheim ; Interfaith marriages ; Intermarriage ; Jewish ; Jewish education ; Military draft ; Orthodox ; Orthodox Judaism ; Peter Hasselbacher ; Protestant ; Reform Judaism ; Secular Judaism ; Temple Adath Israel ; Temple Adath Israel Brith-Shalom ; Vietnam ; Vietnam War Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 17 3308 Legacy of Jewish Hospital / Future of the Jewish community Legacy, yes, which is a question here. Weiss discusses the legacy of Jewish Hospital and where it is going today. He discusses how Jewish Hospital is very well known to many Louisvillians in Kentucky because it has been a part of their history since the early 1900s. He also discusses how the Jewish community in Louisville is shrinking, like many other small southern Jewish communities. Catholic Heath Initiative ; Evolution of Jewish Louisville ; Jewish community ; Jewish Hospital ; Jewish Hospital evolution ; Louisville Jewish community Hospitals ; Jewish families. ; Jewish physicians. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care 17 3890 Final thoughts Well, is there anything I haven’t asked you that you’d like to talk about or say? Weiss concludes by discussing how the shrinking population of Jews in Louisville, Kentucky (which he notes has been seen in many other small southern Jewish communities that have virtually disappeared) could begin to threaten the dynamic of the Louisville Jewish community. Financial issues ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Judaism ; KentuckyOne Health ; Louisville Jewish Community Hospitals ; Jewish families. ; Jewish physicians. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care 17 interview Morris Weiss begins the interview by discussing his family background dating back to Alten-Schoenbach, Germany and how his uncle, Josef Solomon, emigrated to Louisville, Kentucky in 1863. He explains how his family became one of the founding families of Jewish Hospital in Louisville, Kentucky when Weiss’s great-uncle Dr. Leon Solomon and a number of other prominent Louisvillian physicians decided to form Jewish Hospital in the winter of 1903. Weiss discusses his early upbringing during the 1940s in Hardin County, Kentucky. He talks about how the community was largely made up of Jews who had emigrated (or whose ancestors had emigrated) from Eastern-Europe and that he was raised in a Reform Jewish household. Weiss completed his undergraduate education at the University of Michigan in the 1950s, and then went on to complete his medical internships at the University of Pennsylvania. He finished his internal medicine studies at Washington University at Barnes Hospital and Washington University in St. Louis. Weiss talks about Jewish Hospital’s involvement in civil rights, focusing specifically on how it hired, in 1951, Dr. Jesse Bell (the first African American doctor practicing at a non-African American hospital in that region) and Dr. Maurice Rabb, who was another prominent African-American physician. One of the interesting stories that Weiss tells is when he is asked about his experiences with anti-Semitism. He experienced anti-Semitism as an undergraduate student at the University of Pennsylvania and as a medical professional. He tells how during his time as an undergraduate student at the University of Pennsylvania, while attending a party, another student made a joke about Jews having horns. He then talks about how while he was on the board of the Kentucky Heart Association he couldn't attend an event held at the Pendennis because they didn't allow entrance to Jews. He concludes the interview by discussing his own current medical practice as a cardiologist in Louisville, Kentucky, the legacy of Jewish Hospital, and how the shrinking population of Jews in Louisville, Kentucky (which he notes has been seen in many other small southern Jewish communities that have virtually disappeared) could begin to threaten the dynamic of the Louisville Jewish community. ELY: Well, I think I&#039 ; m supposed to say for the tape that, uh, we&#039 ; re here with Morris Weiss, and, uh, it&#039 ; s August 1st, 2016. I&#039 ; m Carol Ely, and we&#039 ; re talking in Videobred Studios. And, uh, Dr. Weiss has a long connection with Jewish Hospital, which will be part of the focus of this interview, but the first question is really tell me when and where you were born. WEISS: Well, I was born July 18th, 1933, at Jewish Hospital at Floyd and Kentucky Streets, and, uh-- ELY: Uh-huh. WEISS: --the, uh, my--my father had come to Louisville in 1921 as a, uh, freshman medical student from Cleveland, Ohio. He had gone to Baldwin Wallace College and, um, was befriended by Emmet Horine, a very famous physician. He was a medical historian in Louisville. He went to New York and became a cardiologist, which--Emmet Horine was the first cardiologist in this part of the world, and, um, he came back to Louisville and was invited to a small dinner party at the corner of Cherokee Road and Longest, Dr. Leon Solomon, who was my great uncle and the brother of my grandmother. Uh, the, uh--my mother, who had been born and raised in Mobile, Alabama, was in Louisville with her brother, who was a cheerleader at the University of Alabama. They were playing the University of Kentucky, and Uncle Doc, Leon Solomon, had a small dinner party and introduced this newly minted cardiologist, uh, to my mother. And they corresponded for a number of ye--several years and finally got married, and, uh, they, uh--mother moved back from Mobile to Louisville where the family had really started. I think I ought to inject a bit here. ELY: Sure. WEISS: Uh, in 1863, Josef Solomon came from Heppenheim on the Weisse, Germany, a Bavarian village just on the, uh, west bank of the Rhine. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Came to Louisville during the Civil War, and, before we started this--this conversation, you mentioned that this organization, uh, that&#039 ; s doing this was interested in communities other than just Kentu--Louisville and Lexington. Uh, my great-grandfather, Josef Solomon, had been a merchant in Heppenheim. Uh, his bride-to-be, Eva Bach, had come a few months before with her father. They--they got married. They set up shop, and he began a mer--he became a merchant in rural Kentucky. ELY: Do you know what town exactly? WEISS: Yes. Uh, my grandmother, Edna Solomon, was born in Chaplin, Kentucky. He had stores in Waddy and Radcliff, and the fi--the big store was in Vine Grove, which is still existent, and, uh, I just finished an article about the store, and it&#039 ; s going to be published in, uh, one of the, uh, historical magazines of the county, uh, of Hardin County. The, uh--he raised five daughters and, uh, one son. Uh, he was successful enough to come to Louisville and send Leon Solomon to-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --to Male High School. He was a brilliant student and wen--entered medical school, uh, in 1892, graduated in &#039 ; 94, and was sent to Germany. His father sent him to Germany for three years where he studied at the great medical centers in Germany and France, and Louisville and Kentucky at that time were very backward in terms of medical care. ELY: Right. WEISS: And he came back to Louisville and was a professor what they called materia medica, or internal medicine, now, uh, at the University of Louisville Medical School at the turn of the century. And in the winter of 1903, Leon Solomon, who I call Uncle Doc, uh, and several other prominent Louisvillians decided to, uh, start a hospital. The Jewish Hospital was finished in 1904 as a state-of-the-art building, uh, because at that time the Jewish doctors weren&#039 ; t being allowed--weren&#039 ; t allowed to really--to practice at some of the other hospitals in town. ELY: Right. WEISS: So they had their own hospital, a state-of-the-art hospital and, uh, open to all comers from the very beginning. So that&#039 ; s--those are my roots. The hospital was built in 1904. It&#039 ; s where I was born in 1933. Uh, my s--junior or senior year in medical school, the--that--the current Jewish Hospital on Chestnut Street was built, and I remember my father calling me. Uh, by the way, my father, Morris Weiss, Sr.--I&#039 ; m a junior--uh, was--uh, being one of the first cardiologists in America and, uh, a very, uh, outstanding doctors, and also he knew medical history and--and the science of cardiology. And, uh, he--he--in fact, in 1954, my freshman year in medical school, he was still giving the--he gave my class the last class the history-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --the cardiology lectures. In those days, the pra--the practicing doctors, uh, did pro bono work at the medical school. They had a very small full-time faculty, and physicians like my father gave the lectures. And, uh, in &#039 ; 57 or &#039 ; 58, he called me one day. He says, &quot ; When you&#039 ; ve finished clinic, come over to the Jewish Hospital ; you&#039 ; ve got to carry the medical records over,&quot ; because they carried--they hand-carried all of the patients&#039 ; records over to, uh, Chestnut Street. That was quite a, uh--a, uh--a, uh, uh, a wonderful day. And then, from that grew the Jewish Hospital of the 1950s, &#039 ; 60s, &#039 ; 70s, &#039 ; 80s, and &#039 ; 90s. ELY: Right. WEISS: But--which is now, uh, an entirely different organization. ELY: Right. WEISS: And in a week or so, I&#039 ; m giving a lecture on the history of Jewish Hospital, uh, to the, uh--one of the boards, so-- ELY: Well, it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s clearly in your blood. Medicine is, uh-- WEISS: It&#039 ; s in my blood. ELY: --been so important to your family. WEISS: It&#039 ; s my--in my DNA. ELY: Yes, yeah, so it was y--Leon Solomon was your uncle. WEISS: Yes, the brother of my grandmother. One of his sisters--this is, uh, just for, uh--as an aside, Josef Solomon, uh, was from Heppenheim, and Samuel Braun or Brown--he changed it to &quot ; Brown&quot ; when he came to America--was from a little town called, uh, Alten-Schoenbach, &quot ; beautiful creek.&quot ; ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And they came to, uh--he came in 1847. I don&#039 ; t believe they knew each other in Germany, but they did know each other in, uh, the States because they were Reform Jews. Uh, uh, we--we can&#039 ; t get into the history of Reform Judaism and what was happening to Jews in the first half of the nineteenth century-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --in Germany and how it--how all that, uh, developed, but I--I would say, just in two sentences, in 1814, when Napoleon conquered Bavaria and mo-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --he required all the Jews for example and anybody that didn&#039 ; t have a family name--up to then, they only had a first name. You had to have a number on your house. And then, in 1824, when Napoleon is defeated at, uh, Waterloo, uh, Germany, uh, beg--began to get more conservative again, because-- ELY: Right. WEISS: --Napoleon had libe--liberated the Jews, the Catholics, and the gypsies in his campaigns. And by 1840 or 1850, these liberal Jewish thinkers who became what we now call Reform Judaism-- ELY: Right. WEISS: --uh, started moving to America. And since they didn&#039 ; t keep kosher, they didn&#039 ; t--that wasn&#039 ; t required, and they had been business, uh, uh--merchants in Germany. They came to the South. ELY: Right. WEISS: And that&#039 ; s why they--that&#039 ; s why-- ELY: That&#039 ; s the whole story of the Kentucky Jewish community, yes. (laughs) WEISS: Right. So my mother&#039 ; s, uh--the Solomons lived in Mobile-- ELY: Uh-huh. WEISS: --and, uh, in Louisville, and the Browns lived in Mobile, and somehow or other these two men got together and started marrying their daughters and--and sons to each other. So we&#039 ; re all double cousins. ELY: So they were always--right, and always affiliated with Reform Judaism. WEISS: All--they were all basically the--the original first two deca--three--first three decades of Germany when Reform Judaism under Geiger and other thinkers, uh, began to develop that whole concept. But these--these men--for example, the Flexners-- ELY: Um-hm, I know. WEISS: And I throw that name--Abraham Flexner Way-- ELY: Right. WEISS: --is right--right there now. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Well, in, uh--at the time of the Civil War in 1863, Mr. Flexner, who had seven children by the way, including Abraham, who re--whose famous paper changed all of American medicine-- ELY: Right. WEISS: --for the better, they lived right--their house, the Flexner House, is right where Jewish Hospital ends-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --and the--and the--and the, uh, Frazier Rehab starts right-- ELY: Yeah, it&#039 ; s funny how the neighborhood-- WEISS: --it was Madison Street there. ELY: --yeah, the Jewish neighborhood is the hospital. WEISS: That&#039 ; s where the Jews--that&#039 ; s where the Jewish people lived. ELY: Right. WEISS: And now, interestingly enough, it&#039 ; s called Abraham Flexner Way. ELY: Right. Well, where--where did you grow up? Where did you live here as a child? WEISS: I grew up, uh, on Bonnycastle. I--my--my parents were living in a--in a, uh, apart--in a small home just, uh, closer to Bardstown Road from the Commodore Apartments. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And then, uh, they moved over in Tyler Park when I was about a year old. And after the &#039 ; 37 flood, a house opened up on Village Drive, and my father bought that house, and we lived there until &#039 ; 44, and then we moved to the circle on Village Drive, and I lived there until I was a--we lived there until we--I was a junior in medical school, and my, uh, parents built a home out off Lime Kiln Lane at that time. So I grew up in the Highlands, uh, and, uh, I still live there. I came back. I live on Cherokee Road and--uh, on Willow Avenue right off Cherokee Road now. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: That&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s my part of the universe. ELY: Well, that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s like a classic story of Jewish Louisville, is moving from downtown to the Highlands to the East End. Coming back to the Highlands, that&#039 ; s a new chapter, so-- WEISS: Right. Well, that, you see--we never lived downtown. My father was a doctor and--and didn&#039 ; t have a business here. ELY: OK. WEISS: He marries my mother from Mobile, uh, and that Brown family was very successful financially. ELY: Oh, you mentioned the corn WEISS: So they started out-- ELY: Right. WEISS: --in the Highlands. ELY: Right. WEISS: And-- ELY: So they were precursors. They were ahead of their time. WEISS: They were precursors, right, to--because I--I think, uh, Carol, it would be a good--if I might make a suggestion in this conversation-- ELY: Right. Sure. WEISS: --that one of the ways of separating and--and getting thinking about Louisville is to think of the Ashkenazi Jews who came-- ELY: Sure. WEISS: --in the 1840s to 1860s, and then the Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews who started coming around 1888 to ninet-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --nineteen--1890 to 1910. Then, Louisville solidifies, and then there&#039 ; s po--perestroika, and--and, uh--and Chernobyl. And we had an influx of-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --several hundred Russian Jews-- ELY: Right. WEISS: --to Louisville. Louisville took them in. Uh, they were an interesting culture. They had grown up under Communism and-- ELY: Yeah, we&#039 ; re actually going to talk about them a little later. WEISS: --so if--if you talk about Louisville, you really need, I think, to have those three migrations in your mind to p--sort of pull thi--to--to--not to hold things together, but to understand what people are saying and thinking about th--those particular-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --times, because they--all three had enormous impact on our community. ELY: Right, right, and you&#039 ; re connected with that first migration historically. WEISS: Right. ELY: Right. WEISS: But the, uh--you know, we&#039 ; re going through a har--a very difficult phase now, because I was 83 a couple weeks ago, and all my children I sent off to college up east, you know--one went to Hampshire. One went to Julliard. And they never came home because there was no--nothing here for them. ELY: Right. WEISS: The Bach&#039 ; s stores --first of all, they didn&#039 ; t--they decided not to go to--into medicine, and we didn&#039 ; t have a family store. But the people who owned haberdashery shops, uh, clothing stores, drugstores, grocery stores, the box stores completely put them out of business. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And when their kids started growing up, they--they looked around, and there wasn&#039 ; t anything for them. So the Jewish population in Louisville, which was--has gone from 10,000 down to 7,800 in the last fifteen or twenty years-- ELY: Right. WEISS: --because my--the children of my generation didn&#039 ; t come back. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And that&#039 ; s one of the big crises now, of course, in-- ELY: Sure. WEISS: --in this community, how to deal with that, an aging community like myself, and the middle group who should be caring in the community are living elsewhere in America. ELY: Um-hm, interesting. Um, just go--going back to your childhood, where did you go to school, to public schools or-- WEISS: I went to Belknap School. ELY: --uh-huh. WEISS: And, uh--which is right at Douglass Loop, right in that area. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And then, I went to Male High School, and, from there, University of Michigan as an undergraduate. And my father wa--was in private practice but was on the faculty of the medical school all these years, so I went to--entered medical school. Our anatomy class was Arnold Belker, myself, my future brother-in-law (laughs) Robert Keisler, and Alan Bornstein. ELY: Uh-huh. WEISS: Uh, that was our anatomy class our freshman year in medical school, and, uh, all Louisville men. We all grew up together. We played ball together down as Se--2nd and College at the old-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --YMHA. And then, by the time we got to medical school and still were playing ball, we were out at, uh, the JCC. ELY: Uh-huh. WEISS: And, uh-- ELY: So did you always know you were coming back to Louisville or-- WEISS: Well, no. ELY: OK. WEISS: No. I went off to Pennsyl--Univ--Pennsylvania Hospital to intern. I was the first Louisville boy to ever intern there. It was the oldest hospital in America, built by Benjamin Franklin in Philadelphia. That was--I was very proud of that. And then, I had my year of cardiology at HUP, University of Pennsylvania. Then, I did my internal medicine at Washington University at Barnes Hospital and Washington University in St. Louis. Uh, I had accepted an appointment in the public health service. I was going out west to treat Navajo Indians and, uh, with a wife and a one-year-old. And, uh, my father, three months before I finished my residency, he had a coronary, and he didn&#039 ; t--he survived it, and, uh, actually, he was on vacation when he had it. ELY: Oh. WEISS: He knew what he had. He went to his hotel room, didn&#039 ; t die, came home, and then he--he slipped into congestive heart failure becau-- ELY: For a cardiologist, this must have been-- WEISS: Right, well, he knew what had happened to him. ELY: Right. WEISS: And, uh, he was on an airplane, actually, when it happened. Uh, and, uh, the--remember, uh, this is 1962, and they were somewhere where there was no good--no decent medical care anyway at that time. So he survived, but he--he had had high blood pressure for a few years, and his heart began to--he slipped into heart failure. We brought him to Barnes, patched him up, he came home. He wasn&#039 ; t doing well. He called me and said, uh, &quot ; Morris, will you come home?&quot ; So I gave up my public health service, uh, uh, uh, uh, not--commission, came home on June 26th, 1962, so I just finished my fifty-fifth year in practice. I rolled into town with a two-year-old, a pregnant wife, and I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m here.&quot ; He said, &quot ; Good. You&#039 ; re on call tonight.&quot ; (laughter) So, uh, here it is, fifty-five years later, and, uh, I&#039 ; ve--I&#039 ; ve, uh--he died seven months later. ELY: Oh. WEISS: He fell dead talking to a patient, and, uh, I was still 29 years old, and I took over this practice, and somehow I survived. ELY: Um, we&#039 ; ve talked about your father. Can you talk about your mother a little bit? WEISS: Yes. My mother, uh, was a wonderful woman. She, uh, uh-- ELY: What was her name? WEISS: --went to Goucher College. She grew up in Mobile, Alabama. ELY: Right. Uh, her name was? WEISS: Uh, Evalyn Brown. ELY: OK. WEISS: It&#039 ; s E-V-A because her grandmother, Eva Bach-- ELY: Ah. WEISS: --was Jos--uh, was her grandmother, ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: So she was named Evalyn Brown. It was Braun in Alten-Schoenbach, Brown when they got to America. Salamon in Germany becomes &quot ; Solomon.&quot ; The A&#039 ; s were changed to O&#039 ; s. ELY: Right. WEISS: It sounded--it was better in English that way. So, uh, they grew up in Mobile. They were a very successful family. The Browns, uh, and--were ext--very successful, and my mother grew up very graciously. The--the Jews in, uh--the Reform Jews in Mobile took on all the--the--the, uh, accoutrements and habits of the well-to-do Mobilians. Yiddish, uh--they never spoke Yiddish in Bavaria anyway, but they didn&#039 ; t speak German. Uh, everybody spoke only English. They--they dressed like the, uh--like America, and they were raised that way. It--they were very gracious living-- ELY: Do you feel that was-- WEISS: --and they had made a nice living. They were very, very, very comfortable, and, uh-- ELY: Was that different from Louisville in your experience? Did you-- WEISS: What? ELY: --uh, was Mobile different from Louisville in that way? Did you feel like people here were inclined to speak German? WEISS: Well, uh, uh, in--in Louisville, uh, the--Uncle Doc&#039 ; s, Leon Solomon&#039 ; s sisters, only one lived in Louisville. They all married very well. Two of them moved--two of them married bro--well, a brother and a cou--a first-cousin in Mobile, so suddenly the Browns and the Solomons are all intermingled. And one went to Shreveport, uh, Louisiana, and, uh, married--was, uh, married--a rabbi, and, uh, so--but they all stayed in the South. ELY: Right. WEISS: And, uh--but in Louisville, the only part of this family that remained was Leon Solomon, and he was one of the prom--most prominent doctors in Louisville. ELY: Right. WEISS: And, uh, so, as a matter of fact, his house just got hit by a big oak tree. ELY: Oh. WEISS: It makes me sad, right on the corner. I just live a block from where I used to go as a child for dinner on Sunday to--to his home, uh, on Chero--corner of Cherokee Road and Longest. Uh, a big oak tree fell and crushed that house on the corner. They&#039 ; re rebuilding it now. But, uh--but he lived very graciously, of course, and was--was a doctor to a lot of prominent Louisvillians. And with my father, uh, uh, who marries Evalyn Brown, whose mother grew up here-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And when they came, when my grandmother came back, all the girls that--young women that she had grown up with in high school were--you know, were married, and we--we knew all that. That wa--that--that German Jewish Reform group of Louisvillians was my family in Louisville. ELY: Right. And so, your mother, how--do you have brothers and sisters? WEISS: I have one sister who passed away last year. She, uh, was married to a Memphis man, Dorch, but then was divorced and married my good friend Robert Keisler. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Uh, who is an orthoped--a retired orthopedic surgeon. ELY: And, uh-- WEISS: I&#039 ; m going to turn this off. I hear it&#039 ; s doing something. Uh, the, uh--and my brother Alan is, uh, retired. He&#039 ; s seven years younger than I, but he&#039 ; s a retired attorney. ELY: Um-hm. So was your mother active in women&#039 ; s groups? Was she-- WEISS: I&#039 ; m sorry? ELY: --was your mother active in women&#039 ; s groups and philanthropy? WEISS: Absolutely. She, uh--she was involved in the Council of Jewish Women in, uh--at the temple. If you go to the temple, uh, she was really handy with the--she loved needlepoint, and she--one of the really wonderful accomplishments late in her life, she needlepointed all twelve Chagall windows. ELY: Wow. WEISS: And if you go to the temple along the hallway back to the rabbi&#039 ; s office-- ELY: I&#039 ; ve se--I&#039 ; ve seen that. WEISS: --you&#039 ; ll see those. Those were all needlepointed by my mother. ELY: Wow. So were there particular causes in the National Council that she was interested in? You mentioned on the phone-- WEISS: She was always interested in the, uh, minority groups, uh-- ELY: Right. You mentioned Civil Rights was important in your family. WEISS: --and Civil Rights groups. My father and mother were both liberal. My father came from Cleveland, and I remember I was--Senator McCarthy--I was a junior or senior in high school, and Senator Joseph McCarthy was standing in the Senate floor. He had taken on, uh, an anti--he was an anti-Communist, uh, rabble-rouser, but it turned out that he was very anti-Semitic, and most of the Communists he was after were--were, uh, Jewish actors in New York and the ones that were prominent in Hollywood. ELY: Right. WEISS: And my father, being a liberal, uh, Jew from Cleveland--secular Jew, I might add--uh, they call belonged to congregations, and my father had been bar mitzvahed, but they--they were basically secular as--as they grew up. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Uh, he read, uh, Mencken&#039 ; s magazi--journals and all that, and McCarthy would stand on the Senate floor and read the subscribers to the 1920s and early &#039 ; 30s of these magazines and then mail them to the local city editors. ELY: Right. WEISS: And my--I remember the d--consternation. They were so afraid that Barry Bingham would do that, but he didn&#039 ; t ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: He never published one name like that from, uh, McCarthy, but--so that--that--that&#039 ; s part of my, uh--my DNA also. I&#039 ; ve been very much involved in the African American community here in Louisville. I just finished two years ago a five-part history of--of, uh, African American medicine. The Red Cross Hospital and the, uh, uh, Louisville National Medical College, which was the most prominent black medical school in America from 1888 to 1910, and, uh-- ELY: I do want to talk about that, but I just want to circle back a little bit and finish talking about your family background, and then we can-- WEISS: OK, go ahead. ELY: --OK, I&#039 ; m sorry to interrupt, because you were--it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s interesting to me too. WEISS: No, no, I-- ELY: Um, just-- WEISS: Well, I hope so. ELY: --did--did you have--(laughs) did you have an affiliation with a temple growing up? Were you members? WEISS: Absolutely. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Eva Bach and Josef Solomon were, uh--were origin--one of the early--earliest members of Adath Israel, and my nephew, Bobby Keisler, who is now on the board of the temple, and his children, who were recently bar mitzvahed and bat mitzvahed, are the consecutive seventh generation of my family at-- ELY: Wow. WEISS: --at the temple, all at--it was Adath Israel. It was not Brith Sholom, uh-- ELY: Right. WEISS: --my family never belonged to Brith Sholom. It was always Adath Israel, so--and I don&#039 ; t know if there&#039 ; s another family extant in Louisville now that can say there are seven generations continuously-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --continuous generations at the--at the temple. ELY: OK. So did you, uh, attend services regularly? Did you get a Jewish education there, or what was your relationship? WEISS: Well, we--we were confirmed. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: We weren&#039 ; t bar mitzvahed. It was, in a way, more social. Uh, the confirmation was a very, very, uh, formal event. Girls wore formals, and--and we had, of course, a religious service in--in--at the tem--at the--at the temple. And, uh, the, uh--the first class that Herbert Waller had was my class in &#039 ; 47, and, uh, the, uh--but the teachers of--were--in the Sunday school were not professional teachers. They taught us morals and ethics, but they--it turned out they knew very little about Jewish history, and--and they--they certainly weren&#039 ; t theologians. And they were prominent lawyers or businessmen in town that volunteered to teach Sunday school. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Uh, and I--I realized, uh, later in life that I had to, uh, start studying on my own so I understood things better, which I&#039 ; ve done. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: But, uh, it was, uh--so, to answer your question, yes, uh, Adath Israel was very well organized under Rabbi Ralk and then Waller. And, uh, most of the well-to-do businessmen at that time in Louisville, the--the ones that had big stores, uh, were members of the, uh, uh--of--of the temple. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: The--at that time, uh, the, uh--about the time of the war was coming, World War II, the, uh--the--the Eastern European Jews were beginning to become very--were being very successful financially. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And, uh, the, uh--that changed the pattern in Louisville, but mainly--they were mainly, uh, in stores downtown, in, uh, Market and Brook Street. They had drugstores all over town when--if--if they could get into pharmacy school and, uh--and dental school. Uh, but the--the, uh--by the time World War II was over, and you get into the &#039 ; 60s and the Vietnam era, every--Louisville&#039 ; s Jewry was incredibly successful. ELY: Um-hm. And often, people have spoken about that there was a divide between the sort of German origin Reform community and the Eastern European community, but that World War II is what changed that. World War II is what brought the two groups together so that now it is more like one community. WEISS: I--I think that&#039 ; s--I think that that&#039 ; s a fair statement, yes. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: The, uh, uh--it was a while before, uh, the Reform Jewry and the Orthodox Jewry of Eastern Europe began to understand each other, because, uh, uh--in a way that was compatible with, uh, a lot of, uh, good social interaction. And by the &#039 ; 60s and, uh, late fi--mid-60s, late-60s, early &#039 ; 70s, there was a lot of marriage between the Orthodox Jews&#039 ; and Reform Jews&#039 ; children. And in--in the &#039 ; 30s and &#039 ; 40s, you would not have seen that at all. ELY: Right. WEISS: Not at all. They didn&#039 ; t know each other. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: They didn&#039 ; t know each other. I got to know a few when I went to Male High School and I started playing ball. I would--basketball was my sport and softball. I always did athletics in the Jewish community, and, uh, so I got to know a lot of these--these--these families. My father knew them all. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: My father knew them all because he took care of them all. ELY: Right, right. Well, other people have also said that the JCC was a--a big leveler, and it brought people together through, as you said, sports and through clubs and other activities. WEISS: And the--before the JCC, it was the YMHA at 2nd and College. ELY: Right. WEISS: That&#039 ; s where I started when I was seven years old. My mother sent me down there to--for gym classes and to get to know people. ELY: Um-hm. And then it moved out to, uh-- WEISS: And then, when I was in medical school-- ELY: --to Dutchmans Lane. WEISS: --I played in the first game on a Sunday. We had a wonderful medical school team, my goodness. We were--we had some real athletes. ELY: Uh-huh. WEISS: Paul Gradder was in our class, and he was all-state football, basketball, track, and baseball. He had gone to Yale, and myself, I was tall. Arnold Belker was a terrific athlete, and we had two or three other guys, uh, and nobody could beat us. We played the first Sunday when the gym open in JCC. ELY: Um-hm. Did you, at--at this time, now, we&#039 ; re talking as--as you were growing up and in medical school, did you experience anti-Semitism in the community? Did you feel that there were limits put on you because of your Jewish affiliations? WEISS: Well, uh, I can tell you a couple of wonderful anecdotal stories about medical school. Uh, in the anatomy lab, there were four students to a table, and I remember when we were graduating, uh, one of my friends who had been in the class--he was a bright guy--came up to me, and he said--my nickname is Moose. He said, &quot ; Moose.&quot ; I was class president at that time, by the way. Every five years, I have to organize the--our reunion. This next one is going to be a little thin I think, uh, in 2018. But he said, &quot ; Moose, you won&#039 ; t bel--,&quot ; you know, when I--I grew up in Central Kentucky, and until I--the first day, your table, Weiss, Bornstein, Belker, and Keisler were pointed out. &quot ; You--those are the guys that are going to set the curve for the class. Watch out for them.&quot ; But, you know, what was even more--this gu--he was--he and I were half-drunk, and he said--he said, &quot ; You know, at that point,&quot ; he said, &quot ; I always--I was taught all Jews had horns, and none of you guys had horns.&quot ; Now, this was a freshman in medical school. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Uh, eight years later, I come back to Louisville, and my father dies, and they put me on the heart--uh, board of the American Heart Association, Kentucky Heart Association. We met at the Pendennis, and I couldn&#039 ; t go to the Pendennis except as a guest, so I asked them to change it to the Seelbach. And, you know, Dan Bick, whose father--uh, whose--who went to Penn and learned to play squash, and Shelly Shiller were friends with Harvey Sloane, because they were squash players, and the only squash court in Louisville was at the Pendennis. And, you know, you--you cou--as a Jew, you couldn&#039 ; t--you couldn&#039 ; t join there, but that changed. Uh, they--they--they did blackball Dan Bick, but Shelly Shiller became a player after Harvey became mayor. And, uh, the, uh--but a lot of things like that, you know, that--that was--that was life. We did fine, and, uh--but all--it&#039 ; s--right now, that&#039 ; s all gone. ELY: Right. WEISS: I don&#039 ; t--I don&#039 ; t know anywhere, uh, that--I don&#039 ; t feel that anywhere, uh, anymore. Uh, the, uh--as a matter of fact, there&#039 ; s an African American--a couple of African American members of Pendennis, and, up until the last few years, they were only waiters, right? ELY: Um-hm, Um-hm. WEISS: So, uh, the, uh--anyway, uh, Louisville is, uh, in my professional life and as an adult, it has changed immensely. ELY: Right. WEISS: And right now, we&#039 ; re, uh--it&#039 ; s--of course, Jewish Hospital, that&#039 ; s another story, uh, since it&#039 ; s owned by, uh, the Catholic Health Initiative out of Denver, and that&#039 ; s changing everything right now. ELY: Right. How did you get the nickname &quot ; Moose&quot ; ? WEISS: That&#039 ; s a handle that&#039 ; s lost in a--in the--in the fog of antiquity. Uh, it--it just grew up on Village Drive, and it&#039 ; s been there ever since I&#039 ; ve been eight or nine years old. ELY: It sounds like one of those stories of the sibling that can&#039 ; t pronounce your name, and therefore-- WEISS: (laughs) No, no, I-- ELY: --no? WEISS: --no, it wasn&#039 ; t--I don&#039 ; t know, maybe because I had big ears or something. I don&#039 ; t know. I mean, I was a big, tall, gangly kid, uh. ELY: Um-hm. Well, let&#039 ; s talk some more about Jewish Hospital, and, uh, you&#039 ; ve mentioned, uh, just in the last few minutes some things about Civil Rights. And Jewish Hospital being open to everyone in the community, that was relatively revolutionary at the time. WEISS: That was revolutionary in 1904. ELY: Right, so-- WEISS: In 1951, my father, uh, arranged for Dr. Jesse Bell and Maurice Rabb, two black physicians, uh, to become members of Jewish Hospital staff and get into the Jefferson County Medical Society. There were no--the black physicians had their own society, and Dr. Bell was the first. He was a very prominent, wonderful man, and I--he became very close in our family, and, uh, which--that&#039 ; s another story. I don&#039 ; t know if we&#039 ; ll get around to that today, but, uh, the, uh--Dr. Bell and then Dr. Rabb joined Jewish Hospital. They could bring their patients there. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And, uh, those physicians who promoted them, like my father and several others, we--and when I came back, we&#039 ; d go to the Red Cross Hospital to see consultations, but-- ELY: Um-hm. Now, the Red Cross Hospital was the, uh, black hospital. WEISS: That&#039 ; s the black hospital, yeah, on--right. It&#039 ; s now the, uh, uh, drug center on Shel--Shelby for, uh--I&#039 ; m--I&#039 ; m groping for the name of the organization that runs it. I can&#039 ; t say right now. ELY: OK. So, uh--so your father was personally involved with bringing the black physicians into Jewish Hospital. WEISS: He--yes, he was the one that nominated Dr. Bell and for the county medical society. ELY: And what was the response from the other physicians there or from the county medical society? WEISS: You know, I don&#039 ; t know all the details, but-- ELY: Uh-huh. WEISS: --it was never--there was never any problems that--that I ever ran into. I started in &#039 ; 62 practicing in Louisville, 1962, and what happened between &#039 ; 51, &#039 ; 52, and &#039 ; 62 is just the gradual integration of soci--of culture and society, and--but, you know, you--there were no black physicians practicing at Norton or Baptist at that time. ELY: Now, Jewish Hospital started out as a place for Jewish physicians to--to practice. How long did the staff remain primarily Jewish, and how did that change? WEISS: It remained primarily Jewish up until modern times. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: There were, of course, consultants and other non-Jewish physicians that practiced there, but at that time in the &#039 ; 50s and &#039 ; 60s and &#039 ; 70s, and, uh, let&#039 ; s say in the &#039 ; 20s and &#039 ; 30s, there were enough Jewish physicians--they staffed the hospital. ELY: Um-hm. Was that true of the nursing staff as well? WEISS: No. The nursing staff was--was, uh, uh, both Jewish and non-Jewish women, uh, and the Bernheim--Isaac W. Bernheim and his brother Bernard provided the money for the nurses&#039 ; home right ne--not a nursing home, but the nurses&#039 ; home-- ELY: Right. WEISS: --next to the Jewish Hospital. ELY: Right. WEISS: On--on Kentucky Street. ELY: And, uh, also, Jewish Hospital relied a lot on volunteers from the community as well to take care of desk jobs and--and some things like that. WEISS: They-- ELY: Were volunteers WEISS: The women of--of--the Jewish women of Louisville, my mother, of course, included, took care of the gift shop. They were--they sat at the desk to welcome people that came in and didn&#039 ; t know where--where to--where to go to get to a room to see a patient. Uh, they provided, uh, uh, uh, countless other activities of providing money and cook--bakery--baking, where they&#039 ; re sell for--to--to buy something like an X-ray machine. And they did all of that. It was just done internally within the Jewish community. ELY: Um-hm. And the Jewish community seems to have always been very proud of Jewish Hospital. WEISS: Very much so. ELY: Yes. WEISS: Very much so. ELY: You&#039 ; d come into town, and the first thing you see on the way in from the airport is this huge sign for Jewish Hospital. WEISS: Right, and it--what the doctors like Leon Solomon, my uncle, my great-uncle--he trained in--he went to Germany and France. He spent three years going to the best medical centers in the world at that time. There was nothing in America. There was maybe a couple of hos--there was Hopkins. Johns Hopkins ha--was using at that time, at the end of the nineteenth century, the European model. ELY: Uh-huh. WEISS: And that&#039 ; s what Flexner bought into, but, uh, the--Leon Solomon and a couple of other men, one other Jewish man, Ian Bloom and, uh--and some non-Jewish doctors went to Europe to study, and they came back and created a, uh, uh, an advanced medical soc--culture. And that, many of these doc--these doctors primarily practiced at Jewish. But now, you&#039 ; ve got to get after World War II, and, after World War II, I do my residency. I finish up at Penn and Barnes, and I came back to Louisville, and I opened the first, uh, ICU unit, four-bed unit. And to do that, the board of trustees had to close the OB section. ELY: Oh, right. I remember reading about that. Uh-huh. WEISS: And, uh, the--and--and that was the beginning. We got monitors, and, uh, then there was a young Canadian surgeon by the name of Allan Lansing who came to Louisville. He had a PhD in physiology. He had gifted hands, and he had learned how to do a bypass surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, and he&#039 ; d spent a year in Texas with DeBakey. He came to Louisville, and Jewish Hospital, uh, gave him his chance. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And, uh, then, that--the hospital just--just blossomed. I mean, everybody came from everywhere, because you could get your bypass here. ELY: Right. WEISS: That&#039 ; s all there was, and a valve, if you had certain valve problems, Allan could do those too. ELY: Cardiology became a huge specialty at Jewish. WEISS: Yes, and we just saw--people came from everywhere, and we did a really good job. And then, David Jones at Humana got this idea he was going to buy--he bought the, uh, first, uh, mechanical heart. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And he owned, uh, Autoban, so he bought Lan--bought Lansing and took him out there. Well, there was a crisis at Jewish, of course. I sat in--I remember sitting in, uh, Hank Wagner, uh, office with my partner Leonard Lang and, &quot ; What are we going to do?&quot ; Well, there was a great surgeon just--Laman Gray, who was young and brilliant and, uh, uh, had not been given a chance to really show what he could do. And Laman came and, of course, even expanded it beyond what Lansing had done, and we had another twenty years of--of--of--of, uh, wonderful cardiology and, uh-- ELY: Um-hm, and the Rudd Heart and Lung Center. WEISS: Laman is retired now. He and I remain close friends, but he&#039 ; s retired, and, uh, he has his cardiovascular institute. And he comes over to the--I&#039 ; m downtown on Tuesday and Thursday now, and he and I have lu--a brief lunch together. He comes over from his institute, which is on the corner of, uh--of Muhammad Ali--Walnut Street, Muhammad Ali and Floyd. And, uh, so we, uh--we&#039 ; ve not been able to replace Laman with a leader and, uh--of his caliber and--and trained like he has. He has magic--he has magic hands, he and his father. His father was a--a--the leading gynecol--gynecologic surgeon in Louisville for many, many, many years and was on the medical school faculty. He had trained at Hopkins in gynecologic pathology, so he&#039 ; d read all the slides on cancer of the uterus and cervix, but he also was a master surgeon, and Laman inherited his, uh--and beyond--his hands. Laman is, uh--there aren&#039 ; t very many people in the world that--that have the skills with their hands that that man has. ELY: Right. And you continue to practice. What&#039 ; s--do you have a subspecialty within cardiology that-- WEISS: Me? ELY: --yeah, you. WEISS: No, I do general pr--I do general cardiology. I&#039 ; m just an old-fashioned doc. I could have practiced family medicine. I could have done anything. That&#039 ; s the way I approach my patients. I&#039 ; ve always been very--my practice has been very personal. I spend time with the patients. I still know how to use a stethoscope. Uh, I don&#039 ; t need an echo to tell, uh--to tell them what kind of murmur they have, and, uh, I just--I--I&#039 ; m in--I&#039 ; m in medicine not because I&#039 ; m a cardiologist but because the care and main--care of patients and the, uh, treatment of illness, and particularly the psychiatric--psychological aspects of illness are what motivates me. ELY: Um-hm. Well, let&#039 ; s switch gears for a minute and talk about your family. You mentioned a wife and children. How did you happen to meet your wife, and what&#039 ; s her name? WEISS: Well, I, uh--I was a, uh--my mother&#039 ; s roommate at Goucher was on the board of the Jewish summer camp in Philadelphia and introduced me to a counselor there when I was a fellow in car--uh, cardiology at Penn, and we got married. We had three children. ELY: And her name is? WEISS: And, uh, Gladys Lillian August, and we had three sons: Dan, John, and Michael. And--and on Christmas Day of 1967, I got drafted, uh, for Vietnam and, uh, drove to Texas with my three kids. And by the time that was all over, my marriage was breaking up, and I was a bachelor for ten years, uh, almost eleven. And during that time when my--I put the boys in summer camp. I started doing something that I had always wanted to do, and that was do archaeology, so I did thirteen years in classical archaeology acro--around the world, in the Mediterranean, all--most of the great countries, areas of the Mediterranean, and continued to do archaeology, uh, Egypt and--and--and Greece and, uh, Italy and Majorca and--and, uh, Sicily. I--in other words, I had always wanted to study that part of the world and ancient history, so I made it my business, since I--I could afford to go on these digs, and they got to know me, the professors at Harvard and Michigan and Yale and all those places that have those digs. I&#039 ; d--I&#039 ; d go because it didn&#039 ; t cost them anything, and I was a nice guy. ELY: Right. WEISS: And I&#039 ; d get down, and I was--I worked with the nineteen-year-olds as grunts for years and years, almost fifteen years in the field. In fact, I dr--I then met Terry, my curr--my wife now. Terry just had her sixtieth birthday, and, uh, she was twenty-eight or -nine and we were--I was the dir--I was--had started the chapter of physicians, anti-nuke docs, physicians against nuclear war, and she was the director of the Council on Peacemaking and Religion. And, uh, we, uh, fell in love, and, uh, we have a child who is twenty-eight, and, uh, so I&#039 ; ve got a fifty-five, fifty-three, fift--fifty-five, fifty-three, fifty-one. Uh, Terry had a child from her first marriage. He&#039 ; s thirty-eight. I&#039 ; ve got--we&#039 ; ve got a twenty-eight-year-old, and I raised--that&#039 ; s another interesting story we won&#039 ; t get into, but I raised an African American boy who is now about forty-five years old. And, uh, the, uh--we&#039 ; ve--we have a wonderful life together. We travel and, uh, raised these kids and grand--kids and grandchildren, and we have a wonderful cadre of friends in--in Louisville, and, uh, so I--I&#039 ; m--I&#039 ; m--I&#039 ; m very, very blessed. ELY: So, um, you--so you&#039 ; ve had two--two families, basically. WEISS: I&#039 ; ve had two fami--I have two families. Not had, I have two. ELY: &quot ; Have,&quot ; I&#039 ; m sorry. WEISS: It&#039 ; s present tense. ELY: Yes. And, uh, did you continue to, um, uh, educate them Jewishly? You mentioned you-- WEISS: They&#039 ; re all, uh-- ELY: --had to educate yourself in a sense. WEISS: --they&#039 ; re all--they&#039 ; re all, yes, every one of them. ELY: Um-hm. And, uh, do you share family holidays together when they&#039 ; re in town and-- WEISS: We do. We do. The, uh, uh--my first wife was, uh, uh--was from a, uh--an Orthodox Eastern European family that b--has sort of become con- a Ref- uh, conservative in Philadelphia. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Uh, and, uh-- ELY: So it&#039 ; s a mixed marriage in a sense. WEISS: Yeah, it&#039 ; s been a mixed marriage, and Terry is Episcopalian. ELY: Uh-huh. So you have a lot of different religious tendencies to juggle in your family. WEISS: No, uh, no, no, I--I don&#039 ; t like that. No, I won&#039 ; t accept that. Uh, uh, this family is based on moral and ethical principles. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And, uh, Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture is, uh--is based on--if you get down to the basic culture, at--at the basic roots, it&#039 ; s all about, uh, ethics and morality. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And actually, the Ten Commandments are about all your need, and, uh, but--uh, so that--everybody respects-- ELY: And you had-- WEISS: --everybody&#039 ; s feelings. Uh, in Mobile, some of the family, some of my first-cousins, uh, didn&#039 ; t ag--they--they all grew up in this ultra-Reform atmosphere, and one of the children, uh, became, uh, Protestant, uh, Baptist, and, uh, the other two remain Jewish. One is secular Jewish. One is active. It just--you know, it just--it--it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s America now. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Because of, uh, the way this country is evolving and has evolved, is that many mixed marriages--I think 50 percent of the marriages now are--uh, Jewish marriages are to non-Jews. ELY: Yeah. WEISS: If you want to look at it that way or--so, uh-- ELY: Just looking at politics today, both candidates have Jewish children. WEISS: --but, you know, yeah, you just--you--if you respect--if people respect--if the couples respect each other and have basic, uh, uh--if they&#039 ; re grounded well ethically and morally and not financially, it&#039 ; s not an issue. ELY: Right. Um, you mentioned that you traveled a lot in Europe researching your family&#039 ; s roots and-- WEISS: Well, uh, Peter Hasselbacher is a retired professor of rheumatology at the university. We&#039 ; ve become very close. Peter and Martha, uh, and Terry and--and Moose see each other a lot. We traveled together, uh, recently, and, uh, Peter has become a--Hasselbacher is a--he became fascinated with his German roots. He has made about ten or fifteen trips to Europe over the last, uh, decade or so, and he has tracked--he has found thousands of Hasselbachers. And he found one branch right near, uh, where I knew--where I had learned where my family originally was from, and he and I went to, uh, year--not this summer, the sum--last summer, uh, to, uh, Germany for a week, and I visited Alten-Schoenbach and Heppenhim on the Weisse (??), found, uh, the--the homes that my gran--great-great-grandparents had, uh--had lived in, the schools they went to. One synagogue is still intact. One isn&#039 ; t. And we were able to get into the archives, uh, the German Archives. And one thing that Hitler didn&#039 ; t do--and he was--he--he killed all the Jews, but he saved all the cemeteries, and he saved all the archives. ELY: Great records, yes. WEISS: And the--I got records back to 1771 of my family in, uh--in Alten-Schoenbach and Heppenheim. And I&#039 ; ve been working on that now. In fact, I just put, uh--put it two weeks ago on Ancestry.com for my--my immediate line, 252 relatives dating back to seventeen-fif--uh, 1771, just my mother&#039 ; s family, the Weiss--the Braun, Browns, and the Solomons. My conclusion after finishing this, that the women in this family did not ha--say--didn&#039 ; t know how to say, &quot ; Not tonight,&quot ; in German or English. ELY: (laughs) Yeah. WEISS: So, uh-- ELY: Sixteen, seventeen children in the family. (laughs) WEISS: Well, the most was nine. ELY: OK. WEISS: But a lot of six and sevens. ELY: Uh-huh. Well, that&#039 ; s--are your, um, kids and, I assume, grandkids as interested in the family story as you or-- WEISS: I have one. I&#039 ; m getting, uh--they&#039 ; re not quite there yet, my children. You know, you&#039 ; ve got--to get--to--to do this, you&#039 ; ve got to--you&#039 ; ve got to get middle-aged before it sets in, when you really start thinking about where--where is all of this going-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --where--where is all--what am I going to leave. ELY: Legacy, yes, which is a question here. You know, you&#039 ; ve, um--with the transition of Jewish Hospital, do you feel like a chapter has ended? Do you feel like the legacy that--that your father and--and, uh, uncle started continues? WEISS: Uh, two weeks from now or--I&#039 ; m giving a lecture on the history of Jewish hospital. I&#039 ; m just putting my slides together this weekend. Uh, the answer to your question is, uh, that there&#039 ; s only one way Jewish Hospital&#039 ; s name will stay on the building much longer, and that is if the hospital becomes part of the university, because on- the--Mount Sinai in New York and, uh, Caesar Sin--Cedars-Sinai in LA, those two great Jewish hospitals, remain intact because they either became medical schools or--or--or became part of medical schools. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Chicago, uh, is gone, and other major cities, and Jewish Hospital will be like--the sign on the building will be like Kosair. This week, they&#039 ; re taking the Kosair sign off Children&#039 ; s Hospital after a hundred years, right? ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Well, that&#039 ; ll be gone before long unless it becomes University Hospital slash Jewish, because in St. Louis it&#039 ; s--Barnes, Washington University slash Jewish, because they had--they became part of the medical school. Otherwise, it&#039 ; s gone, because these hospitals, several hundred--no, I don&#039 ; t think it was that many, maybe 50 or more--that were developed at the beginning of--the end of the nineteenth, beginning of the twentieth century, were--these Jewish hospitals that were put in cities were there because the Jewish doctors didn&#039 ; t have a place to go to practice, and, uh, now that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s not necessary. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: So the need for these hospitals is gone, the--not the need but the--the--the motivation to build them in the first place is no long--no longer exists in our society. And if you&#039 ; re going to preserve them, you&#039 ; re going to have to con--the Jewish name, anyway--you&#039 ; re going to have to identify with a medical school, and that&#039 ; s what--I don&#039 ; t know if that&#039 ; s going to happen now. Uh, I don&#039 ; t have to tell--everybody in Louisville knows the fight between Ramsey and Dunn, who is the head of the medical school and--and the problems with the funding from Denver to the me--ho--university hospital. All of this is daily in the newspapers now, and, until that gets sorted out, that&#039 ; s a real problem in our community. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Uh, the medical school, of course, will not be allowed to fold. Uh, it&#039 ; s a--a major cultural, uh, and societal institution, uh, but Jewish Hospital, unless it can become identified with what--what the university hospital eventually morphs into, uh, it will also disappear. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: So that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s a long answer to a short question. ELY: Well, it&#039 ; s an important question. And you also talked some about the changes in the Jewish community as a whole in--in your time here. And do you have any further thoughts about, uh, how things have changed, are changing? I mean, with Jewish Hospital not being &quot ; Jewish Hospital&quot ; potentially, other institution are changing as well. WEISS: Well, I think that the Jewish community in Louisville is under incredible tension and pressure. Uh, the JCC is only open because, uh, 80 to 85 percent of the membership is non-Jewish. And when I--when it was opened, it was 95 percent Jewish. The Anshei Sfard is--Skippy Davis and--and a couple of others are saving Anshei Sfard. They&#039 ; re bringing in a couple of young rabbis. Hopefully, that will work. That&#039 ; s Orthodox. Uh, the, uh--the Russian Jews who moved into Shalom Tower, that--that building has been sold. Four Courts, which was the best nursing home in Louisville, started by Kelly Helman and--and it&#039 ; s--he was a prominent lawyer--and his group, and built it into the best J--nursing home in Louisville. That was sold to a man in California. Uh, Jewish Hospital has been sold to the CHI in Denver. Uh, the, uh--I know the temple is at 5:30--4:30 this afternoon, I&#039 ; m meeting the, uh--the president of the board of Jewish--uh, the board of trustees, the president of the board of trustees at Jewish hospital asked me to meet her for coffee and discuss, uh, some financial issues that are going on there. What am I going to do? &quot ; Moose, what are you going to do?&quot ; And, uh, the, uh, uh--and, uh, the two conservative synagogues, uh, Brith Sholom--I mean, Adath Jeshurun and, uh-- ELY: Keneseth. WEISS: --Keneseth, they need to be one congregation, uh, but they--they got--they&#039 ; ve gotten close, but they&#039 ; ve never done it, becau--but it&#039 ; s all financial, because there&#039 ; s not enough people. The population has dropped from 10,000. It&#039 ; s keeping--going down, 100 or 150 every couple--few years. And the base that supported all of this, the Bichs, the--the Levys, all of these people with big--they were the box stores, and they&#039 ; re all gone, and their children have all disseminated. And now, you know, it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s the Walmarts and the Cost--Costcos that-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --are the box stores. And, uh, all the Jewish, uh, pharmacists who haven&#039 ; t died or retired are now working for Walgreen&#039 ; s or whatever. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: They don&#039 ; t own their shops anymore. So that--that&#039 ; s putting enormous stress on the Louisville Jewish community, and it will--it&#039 ; s gradually becoming like the small Jewish communities, uh--Mobile is still pretty good, but all the little towns in Mississippi and Louisiana and Tennessee that had Jewish communities, uh, that have long since disappeared. And now, there&#039 ; s that one cultural group that meets and keeps the magazine going, a little, uh, uh, paper going to--and they collect Torahs and whatever, and they reminisce about what happened from, you know, uh--in 1860 to 1960. ELY: Uh-huh. WEISS: But the, uh, uh--that&#039 ; s all gone, and Louisville is heading that way, because Louisville, when I grew up--you know, during the Civil War, Louisville was, uh, one of the richest cities in--in America. The railroads came through here and--and the--and the steamship lines, and there were nine Union hospitals, and, uh, Brandeis&#039 ; s uncle uh, uh, they came with money from, uh, Austria, but he became an immensely wealthy man. He was an attorney, but, you know, he went to Springfield, Illinois, and he nominated Abraham Lincoln for presidency-- ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: --for the presidency, a young Jewish, uh, immigrant from Germany. And, uh, the--there--there was so much--they were so successful, they had a big synagogue right whe--you know, it&#039 ; s at 6th and Broadway where the Courier-Journal Building is. That was the original Adath Israel, and, uh, before they bought--uh, when they--when they sold that and moved over to 3rd Street, at 3rd and, uh, uh--where the library is at whatever college or whatever it is. ELY: Uh, York? WEISS: Yeah, uh, so that&#039 ; s where--where I grew up down there. But anyway, uh, that&#039 ; s, uh--it&#039 ; s all different now, and unless Louisville can somehow regain, uh, so--a strong financial, uh, uh, industrial base, it&#039 ; s just going to go down more and more and more. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: Uh, UPS, you know, they--they&#039 ; ve got billions of dollars worth of airplanes, but they don&#039 ; t hire that many people. They don&#039 ; t make anything. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And, uh, GE, which had 22,000 employees when I was in high school and college now has 1,200 or 1,500, and that&#039 ; s been sold. ELY: Right. WEISS: So, uh, it&#039 ; s--and I don&#039 ; t see anything, uh, happening in Louisville. All the big conventions are moving on because we don&#039 ; t have nice hotels for them and whatever. ELY: Hmm. WEISS: So it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; ll be a wonderful city. It&#039 ; s got a great tradition, but it--it&#039 ; s being--it&#039 ; s being left behind, I&#039 ; m afraid. ELY: Hmm. Well, is there anything I haven&#039 ; t asked you that you&#039 ; d like to talk about or say? Is there something I&#039 ; ve missed that you--you want to have on tape for posterity, or have we pretty much covered, uh, your life and interests? WEISS: Well, I&#039 ; m--I personally, and my--and the family that remains here in Louisville are dedicated to Louisville and preserving the Jewish and the hist--and the--Louisville&#039 ; s historical, uh, culture, but we&#039 ; re--everyone is realistic about, uh, the nature of--of, uh, what the next fifty years have--or twenty-five years it&#039 ; s going to be like. But that&#039 ; s always very, very hard, because we--all of us live for today. We have the day&#039 ; s problems, the sickness, whatever that you have to deal with, and family, and you--you--sometimes, it&#039 ; s very hard to just look at the picture and try to predict where you&#039 ; re going. My--I think my kids are smarter than I, because, you know, they didn&#039 ; t come home. My boys, my older boys, are all up east. They&#039 ; ve not come home, and they&#039 ; ve been very successful. ELY: Uh-huh. WEISS: And, uh--but if they were here in Louisville, they&#039 ; d be very successful, and they&#039 ; d be-- ELY: (laughs) Right. WEISS: --building the city more, but everything they&#039 ; re creating is up east now. ELY: Um-hm. WEISS: And that--that&#039 ; s a problem, and it just--the next generation is going to have more and more financial problems. It&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s going to have to contract down more and more. They sold the Standard Club. They&#039 ; re going to--you know, they&#039 ; re going to play--play--play golf, but they&#039 ; re going to s--sell the back acreage. They&#039 ; re already talking about selling the land behind JCC, uh, and it--it&#039 ; s just--it&#039 ; s just a slow, slow contraction. Everybody means well, and, uh--but, uh, I personally don&#039 ; t see Louisville exploding again into the city that it was during the Civil War, uh, during World War II, and after. ELY: Um-hm. OK, well, uh, I think we&#039 ; re done then, and, um, thank you so much for-- WEISS: You&#039 ; re welcome. I hope I was helpful. ELY: --stories. [End of interview] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh252_jk028_weiss_ohm.xml 2016oh252_jk028_weiss_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh252_jk028_weiss_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Morris Weiss, August 1, 2016 Description An account of the resource Morris Weiss begins the interview by discussing his family background dating back to Alten-Schoenbach, Germany and how his uncle, Josef Solomon, emigrated to Louisville, Kentucky in 1863. He explains how his family became one of the founding families of Jewish Hospital in Louisville, Kentucky when Weiss’s great-uncle Dr. Leon Solomon and a number of other prominent Louisvillian physicians decided to form Jewish Hospital in the winter of 1903. Weiss discusses his early upbringing during the 1940s in Hardin County, Kentucky. He talks about how the community was largely made up of Jews who had emigrated (or whose ancestors had emigrated) from Eastern-Europe and that he was raised in a Reform Jewish household. Weiss completed his undergraduate education at the University of Michigan in the 1950s, and then went on to complete his medical internships at the University of Pennsylvania. He finished his internal medicine studies at Washington University at Barnes Hospital and Washington University in St. Louis. Weiss talks about Jewish Hospital’s involvement in civil rights, focusing specifically on how it hired, in 1951, Dr. Jesse Bell (the first African American doctor practicing at a non-African American hospital in that region) and Dr. Maurice Rabb, who was another prominent African-American physician. One of the interesting stories that Weiss tells is when he is asked about his experiences with anti-Semitism. He experienced anti-Semitism as an undergraduate student at the University of Pennsylvania and as a medical professional. He tells how during his time as an undergraduate student at the University of Pennsylvania, while attending a party, another student made a joke about Jews having horns. He then talks about how while he was on the board of the Kentucky Heart Association he couldn't attend an event held at the Pendennis because they didn't allow entrance to Jews. He concludes the interview by discussing his own current medical practice as a cardiologist in Louisville, Kentucky, the legacy of Jewish Hospital, and how the shrinking population of Jews in Louisville, Kentucky (which he notes has been seen in many other small southern Jewish communities that have virtually disappeared) could begin to threaten the dynamic of the Louisville Jewish community. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh252_jk028 Subject The topic of the resource Family histories. Genealogy Jewish families. Louisville (Ky.) Hospitals Medical care--Kentucky Childhood Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Jewish children Jews--Identity. Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Jewish physicians. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/0ea21cb9091027048d1a8fae49eaa3f2.jpeg 27491dc3ef39f554147ce69b4b65c5a9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arwen Donahue Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Rosenberg Jean Rosenberg Interview Keyword Strip mining--Law and legislation--Appalachian Region Charleston (W. Va.) Prestonsburg (Ky.) Social reformers--Appalachian Region Williamson (W. Va.) Holidays. Quakers. Hitler, Adolf, 1889-1945. Emigration and immigration. Immigrants World War, 1939-1945 OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh159_jk027 Interview with John and Jean Rosenberg, July 1, 2016 2016oh159_jk027 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Families. Family histories. Genealogy Jewish children Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) Strip mining--Law and legislation--Appalachian Region Charleston (W. Va.) Prestonsburg (Ky.) Social reformers--Appalachian Region Williamson (W. Va.) Holidays. Quakers. Hitler, Adolf, 1889-1945. Emigration and immigration. Immigrants World War, 1939-1945 John Rosenberg Jean Rosenberg Arwen Donahue 1:|38(4)|46(11)|60(12)|69(16)|89(10)|104(10)|117(3)|131(13)|153(11)|163(9)|172(12)|186(11)|205(1)|213(9)|224(5)|235(10)|244(15)|256(9)|273(4)|297(9)|305(11)|322(12)|343(10)|365(13)|402(5)|416(1)|425(4)|462(6)|479(3)|507(3)|520(4)|532(11)|549(11)|569(3)|578(10)|588(13)|602(7)|626(7)|648(12)|660(11)|671(3)|687(4)|706(11)|720(7)|741(5)|754(7)|774(10)|789(1)|803(2)|832(6)|847(3)|858(1)|897(7)|913(12)|922(10)|935(8)|961(11)|986(3)|1004(14)|1013(1)|1022(11)|1035(2)|1048(11)|1071(1)|1083(3)|1097(2)|1113(14)|1131(6)|1147(1)|1166(3)|1174(1)|1184(14)|1201(6)|1213(4)|1235(2)|1250(11)|1260(12)|1270(5)|1284(4)|1293(10)|1302(7)|1312(5)|1322(10)|1345(10)|1360(1)|1370(10)|1380(11)|1391(2)|1403(8)|1413(9)|1422(8)|1439(5)|1475(5)|1500(11)|1524(9)|1536(9)|1552(2)|1566(3)|1583(13)|1613(4)|1643(5)|1653(1)|1670(9)|1683(3)|1704(16)|1728(8)|1747(15)|1762(10)|1793(1)|1802(8)|1824(6)|1864(10)|1883(5)|1896(4)|1913(3)|1944(8)|1999(2)|2029(1)|2056(10)|2093(8)|2131(5)|2145(1)|2168(6)|2185(4)|2213(11)|2236(8)|2257(1)|2280(1)|2310(3)|2346(4)|2362(9)|2387(8)|2402(12)|2416(8)|2456(9)|2490(2)|2506(5)|2546(9)|2581(5)|2603(7)|2627(2)|2654(11)|2726(5) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253329853&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family background in Magdeburg, Germany and the importance of Judaism in his early life Okay. It’s July 1st, 2016. I’m Arwen Donahue. And I’m with John Rosenberg. Born in Magdeburg, Germany on October 7th, 1931, John Rosenberg begins the interview by discussing the importance of Judaism in his family's life growing up. His father was a Jewish schoolteacher and assisted the local rabbi while his mother kept a kosher household. He notes that although they were not an orthodox household, they still kept traditions and religion played a significant part in their lives. His father's grandfather and great-grandfather were both rabbis, therefore Judaism and keeping Jewish tradition played an important role in his family's background as well. John Rosenberg's father, Rudolf, was raised primarily by his mother after his father died at a young age. Rosenberg's father also completed his Jewish education at seminary before becoming a Jewish schoolteacher and assisting their local community's rabbi. John Rosenberg's mother, Gerta, lived in Idar-Oberstein, Germany where her father owned a non-kosher butcher shop. Rosenberg's parents met in Idar-Oberstein after his father moved there to be a religious schoolteacher. His mother was a student of his father's. Lastly, John Rosenberg briefly mentions his siblings, Harry and Teresa-Joan, who both live in Raleigh, North Carolina today. Butcher shops ; Family ; Fathers ; Germany ; Idar-Oberstein (Germany) ; Jewish ; Jewish education ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Kosher ; Magdeburg (Germany) ; Marriage ; Orthodox Judaism ; Rabbis ; Raleigh (N.C.) ; Schoolteachers ; Synagogue services Families. ; Family histories. ; Genealogy ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 52.1205, 11.6276 17 Magdeburg (Germany) 536 Earliest memories of the rise of the Nazi regime in 1933 And would you describe your memories of the--the Nazi regime came to power in 1933, when you were very--too young to remember. Although too young to remember much of the rise of the Nazi regime in 1933, John Rosenberg notes that his strongest memories are of his parents and from photographs that he has seen. When he started school in the first grade, Rosenberg remembers Hitler's decree that Jewish students would be separated from Aryan children. This decree led to his father organizing a school for Jewish schoolchildren where he attended first grade in Magdeburg, Germany. He briefly discusses his nephew, Dan Rosenberg, and his research of the &quot ; Magdeburger Jews&quot ; who migrated primarily to Australia. He notes that many of the people interviewed during his nephew's research describe their experiences in schools as very negative and were relieved to see segregation, which was surprising to him. Rosenberg then recalls the night of Kristallnacht on November 11th, 1938, which he remembers very clearly. He remembers gathering with his family in the courtyard and watching the Nazis burn all of the Torahs and prayer books and eventually dynamiting the interior of the synagogue. He recalls his father's arrest and his mother making a sandwich for his father before the Storm Troopers took him away. Adolf Hitler ; Germany ; Jewish schools ; Kristallnacht ; Magdeburg (Germany) ; Magdeburg, Germany ; Memories ; Nazism ; Segregation ; Torah (scroll) Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Family histories. ; Hitler, Adolf, 1889-1945. ; Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 52.1205, 11.6276 17 Magdeburg (Germany) 1092 Immediate and extended family's oppression during Nazi regime And you mentioned that much of your extended family that you were with in Frankfurt were later killed. John Rosenberg begins by talking briefly about his extended family's ancestry in Friesland, Germany, naming his grandfather's sisters and their husbands. He then focuses on his family's oppression during the Nazi regime, including his time in a detention center for Jewish refugees in Rotterdam, Holland. He mentions that some of his extended family were sent to Auschwitz concentration camp where they were then murdered. Fortunately, his mother and father's immediate family made it to the United States in 1936 before they faced that kind of oppression. While in the Jewish detention center, John Rosenberg's father started a school for the Jewish children. During this time, the Dutch government heard that his father was conducting this school and wanted him to relocate to a transit camp in Westerbork, Holland. His father knew, however, that this is where Jews went before they were taken to Auschwitz and turned down the offer. He speaks of his father seeking out a Jewish committee with whom he had connections for help with getting out of the country and relocating his family to the United States. Auschwitz (Concentration camp) ; Concentration camps ; Education ; Family life ; Frankfurt (Germany) ; Frankfurt, Germany ; Jewish education ; New York ; Rotterdam (Holland) ; Rotterdam, Holland ; Segregation ; Trains Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 50.0274, 19.2020 17 Auschwitz concentration camp, Poland 1760 Family's immigration to the United States in 1940 So you came on a ship--you left on a ship in 1940. It was one of the last ships to leave Holland before World War II? John Rosenberg and his immediate family immigrated to the United States on one of the last ships leaving Holland in 1940 before World War II broke out. He recalls how his uncle and grandmother did not make it out of Europe before the war started and were relocated to a concentration camp. His uncle, Zemi, died in the concentration camp and his grandmother was relocated to another concentration camp where she was killed in 1944. Rosenberg reflects on his time on the ship where he saw his first colorized movie, &quot ; The Wizard of Oz&quot ; , even though he could not speak English. After arriving in New York, he and his family moved into his mother's family's apartment in Washington Heights. He describes the name-changing process when they arrived at Ellis Island where his German name, Hans, was changed to John. His middle name was also changed back to its original name before Hitler's decree to give Jews the middle names of &quot ; Israel&quot ; and &quot ; Sarah.&quot ; His dad, however, felt strongly about the country of Israel and wanted to keep the middle name for himself. Adolf Hitler ; Concentration camps ; Ellis Island (N.Y.) ; Holland ; Holland America Line ; New York ; Nuremberg Laws ; Washington Heights (N.Y.) ; Washington Heights, New York ; Westerbork ; Wizard of Oz ; World War II Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Hitler, Adolf, 1889-1945. ; Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; World War, 1939-1945 40.6995, -74.0396 17 Ellis Island (N.Y.) 2332 Transition to Spartanburg, South Carolina's Jewish community in 1941 I'm just gonna summarize a little bit, in the interest of time, since, uh, the--you have such a rich life story... Due to the vast amount of immigrants in New York at the time, John Rosenberg's father moved to Spartanburg, South Carolina to conduct services at the local synagogue. He also conducted services in Gastonia, North Carolina on the weekends because neither place had a rabbi. John and his family moved to Spartanburg shortly after in 1941. He enrolled in school there. He recalls picking up English easily while he was in New York though his parents struggled to learn the language as quickly. Assimilation ; English language ; Gastonia (N.C.) ; Gastonia, North Carolina ; German Jews ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Public schools ; Rabbis ; Religious practices ; Spartanburg (S.C.) ; Spartanburg, South Carolina ; Synagogue services Emigration and immigration. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 34.9496, -81.9320 17 Spartanburg (S.C.) 2805 Early non-Jewish experiences and thoughts on anti-Semitism So you were f--you went to a public school and your fr, your friends were not necessarily Jewish. John Rosenberg discusses his experiences at a predominantly Christian scout camp where he served as camp chaplain. He participated in prayers and sometimes he sang Christian hymns, recalling that it did not bother him much. As he discusses other experiences in the non-Jewish community, he reflects on his views on anti-Semitism and the fact that he hasn't faced any overt prejudice during his time in the scouts or since he came to the United States. He then talks about his life today and how he and his wife have good relations with the local Christian community, volunteering at the Presbyterian church's service ministry programs. Baptists ; Boy Scouts of America ; Civic scene ; Congregations ; Gastonia (N.C.) ; Gastonia, North Carolina ; High schools ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Jewish organizations ; Prejudice ; Presbyterian churches ; Public schools ; Quakerism ; Racism ; Religious practices ; Social scene ; Tyron (N.C.) ; Tyron, North Carolina Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 17 3521 Jewish identity in the United States So going back a bit, to when you arrived in the United States and your, your education had been interrupted by Nazism and war and coming, uh, overseas and being, being a refugee... John Rosenberg reflects on Jewish history, noting the resiliency of the Jews even after thousands of years of oppression. He describes the rituals that his family tried to continue when they came to the United States such as keeping Sabbath and going to the synagogue. Because they lived in the south, he admitted that it was harder to keep traditions the same. Jewish merchant stores were open on Saturdays which led many of the local congregations to become Reform congregations. He discusses the congregation at Temple Emanuel in Gastonia, North Carolina and how he attended Sunday school there. He received instruction every week from the rabbi at the same temple in Gastonia leading up to his Bar Mitzvah. Although not the most important thing in his life, Rosenberg says that his Jewish identity has been a very big part of his life. His family kept the High Holidays and he has kept those traditions going in his house today. Bar mitzvahs ; Congregations ; Conservative Judaism ; Culture ; Gastonia (N.C.) ; Gastonia, North Carolina ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Family Services ; Jewish history ; Jewish identity ; Jewish tradition ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Nazism ; Orthodox Judaism ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Reform Judaism ; Religious services ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Sunday school ; Synagogue services Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 35.2621, -81.1873 17 Gastonia (N.C.) 4148 Thoughts on the notion of justice in Judaism and continuing Jewish tradition I guess I’m wondering what about that you have carried with you, over the course of your life? John Rosenberg begins by quoting Isaiah in the Old Testament, &quot ; Justice, justice shall you pursue,&quot ; when asked about the notion of justice within Judaism. Although he has spent time on many civil rights projects, he doesn't believe he does those things because he is Jewish, but because it is the &quot ; right thing to do.&quot ; He transitions to a discussion on the congregation he and his wife attend today in Huntington, West Virginia. He also carries on traditions at home such as abbreviated, Friday night services called &quot ; Kiddush&quot ; that they do today. Civic involvement ; Congregations ; Eastern Kentucky ; Family values ; Huntington (W. Va.) ; Huntington, West Virginia ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Jewish religion ; Jewish tradition ; Judaism ; Prestonsburg (Ky.) ; Prestonsburg, Kentucky ; Synagogue services Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.4192, -82.4452 17 Huntington (W. Va.) 4537 Family's transition to Eastern Kentucky in 1970 So this is a, this is a big leap but since we’re focusing, in this project, on Jewish communities in Kentucky, um, I want to ask about your decision to move to Kentucky, in 1970. John Rosenberg and his wife, Jean, were in the Civil Rights Division during the Nixon administration. In a search for something different, John founded the Appalachian Research and Defense Fund in Eastern Kentucky in 1970. This business was involved with legal issues such as mineral rights and black lung, as well as serving underrepresented people in Appalachia. He describes how he was attracted to the interesting legal issues such as welfare rights and problems involving strip-mining. He decided to take the opportunity to help underrepresented people in the area. Appalachia ; Appalachian Research and Defense Fund of Kentucky, Inc. (AppalReD) ; Charleston, West Virginia ; Civil rights ; Coal mining ; Eastern Kentucky ; Jewish communities ; Lawyers ; Mountain People's Rights ; Segregation ; Welfare Rights Organization Charleston (W. Va.) ; Poverty--Appalachian Region ; Prestonsburg (Ky.) ; Social reformers--Appalachian Region ; Strip mining--Law and legislation--Appalachian Region 37.6657, -82.7715 17 Prestonsburg (Ky.) 5561 His children's lives today and the purchase of David, Kentucky So you have two children, Michael and Annie. Right? And, um, where are they now? John Rosenberg's son, Michael, currently lives in Northern Kentucky with his wife. His daughter, Annie, currently lives outside of Corydon, Indiana with her husband but she is a social worker in Louisville, Kentucky. Before getting her master's at the University of Louisville, Annie went to The David School, a former coal camp in David, Kentucky. John Rosenberg did a lot of the legal work that went along with purchasing the town and joined the Community Development Corporation which helped secure funding for the newly purchased town. The David School was formed in the community and it focused a lot on one-on-one education, which was why Rosenberg's daughter left public school to go there. Ashland (Ky.) ; Ashland, Kentucky ; Child-rearing ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Coal mining ; David, Kentucky ; High schools ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Marriage ; Morehead (Ky.) ; Morehead, Kentucky ; Newport (Ky.) ; Newport, Kentucky ; Prestonsburg (Ky.) ; Prestonsburg, Kentucky ; The David School David (Ky.) ; Education--Kentucky ; Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Social reformers--Appalachian Region 37.5995, -82.8907 17 David (Ky.) 5922 Experiences in various Jewish communities How did you and Jean negotiate--so you talked about how you have--you worked out, uh, going sometimes to someone’s home for a Quaker service and sometimes to, uh, when it existed, the services in Williamson, West Virginia, at the synagogue. John Rosenberg begins the discussion talking about his wedding to his wife, Jean, who is a Quaker. He recalls that the ceremony was a Quaker meeting with a rabbi. As their kids were growing up, they attended the Reform congregation, Adath Israel, in Lexington, Kentucky for the holidays and periodically throughout the year. In the late nineties or early 2000s they started going to the congregation in Williamson, West Virginia. Because his wife is a Quaker, they joined local Quaker families in Eastern Kentucky for Quaker meetings in their homes. Ashland (Ky.) ; Ashland, Kentucky ; Child-rearing ; Coalfield Jews ; Congregations ; Conservative Judaism ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Intermarriage ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Family Services ; Jewish tradition ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Marriage ; Orthodox Judaism ; Quakerism ; Reform Judaism ; Synagogue services ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Williamson, West Virginia Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Quakers. ; Religion ; Williamson (W. Va.) ; Worship (Judaism) 37.6743, -82.2774 17 Williamson (W. Va.) 6346 His children's past and present spiritual lives Uh, the kids--I think I spent more time with Michael, probably, as he was growing up, in terms of being Jewish. John Rosenberg recalls that he spent more time with his son, Michael, in regards to Judaism. However, he says that his daughter, Annie, is a very spiritual person. He discusses his children's current spiritual lives, saying that if they remembered their Jewish heritage that that would be good enough for him. John believes his daughter, Annie, spends a lot of time thinking about the spiritual life today because of her cancer episode a few years back. As his children were growing up, Rosenberg taught his children from Jewish Sunday school books and took them to synagogue services. However, neither of children had bar or bat mitzvahs. Child-rearing ; Coalfield Jews ; Eastern Kentucky ; History ; Jewish ; Jewish history ; Jewish tradition ; Judaism ; Passover (also Pesach) Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 6708 John discusses raising children in a non-Jewish community Was it challenging at all to, to raise children in a small, predominantly Christian town and have them not be, uh, strongly identified with one particular religion? John Rosenberg begins by discussing the difference in his children's personalities, Annie being more social and Michael being more intellectual and reserved. He relates this with how Michael was treated in school by his teachers, having some negative experiences in the classroom regarding his religion. Before describing the situation, his wife, Jean, enters the interview. Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Books ; Child-rearing ; Christian religion ; Congregations ; Family life ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; Jewish education ; Memories ; Prejudice ; Religious life ; Sunday school ; Teachers Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 6986 Jean and John discuss raising children in a non-Jewish community It just seems appropriate, since you were involved in-- Jean Rosenberg begins by discussing her relationship with Judaism as a Quaker and how she has studied Judaism and the similarities of the two religions. She believes both traditions emphasize &quot ; tzedakah,&quot ; healing the world, and giving to others. She notes that the religions just take a different approach on this principle. Returning to the situation with their son, Michael, and his teacher, Jean describes the scenario where his teacher laughed at her son for singing a Hebrew song and saying it sounded like &quot ; baby talk&quot ; to her. She does not mention that much confrontation was involved, but that she did have as strong presence in the school system so it was not unusual for her to be involved. They then discuss the dynamic of an interfaith marriage, saying they always celebrated Christmas and Hanukkah. They note that their interfaith marriage may have been hard for John's father to accept, but ultimately they loved Jean and were very tolerant of the situation. Jean Rosenberg feels that two traditions feed each other and that it's a continuum of history. Child-rearing ; Education ; Family life ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; Holidays ; Intermarriage ; Jean Rosenberg ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish tradition ; Prejudice ; Public schools ; Quakerism ; Religious practices ; Teachers Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Quakers. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 7570 Connections with Jewish community in Eastern Kentucky / Appalachian Research and Defense Fund What about Jewish community, living in a, in a small town in eastern Kentucky? John and Jean Rosenberg discuss their relationship with the Jewish community in Eastern Kentucky. They note that their involvement in the synagogue was motivated largely by tradition and ritual and that sometimes relationships were a byproduct of their involvement. Because they don't live in a large city with a larger Jewish community, they haven't been able to be as involved in the social fabric aspect of the synagogue. In their hometown of Prestonsburg, they are the only Jewish family. John discusses his involvement in the local schools and churches where he talks about his faith and his personal history involving the Holocaust. John and Jean transition into a brief discussion on the Appalachian Research and Defense Fund (AppalReD), a legal aid program that John Rosenberg founded. Appalachian Research and Defense Fund of Kentucky, Inc. (AppalReD) ; Civic involvement ; Congregations ; Eastern Kentucky ; Intermarriage ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish tradition ; Lawyers ; Prestonsburg (Ky.) ; Prestonsburg, Kentucky ; Stores ; Synagogue services ; Williamson (W. Va.) ; Williamson, West Virginia Families. ; Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Social reformers--Appalachian Region ; Worship (Judaism) 37.6657, -82. 7715 17 Prestonsburg (Ky.) 8334 The importance of Israel / Closing remarks You mentioned Israel. What is--what are your feelings about Israel? John and Jean Rosenberg discuss their trip to Israel in 1969 and John's cousin who still lives in Israel today. They think that Israel is an amazing country and wonder if there will ever be peace between Jews and non-Jews. They end the interview with closing remarks. Jewish education ; Jewish persecution ; Military service Israel. ; Jewish families. 31.0461, 34.8516 17 Israel interview Born in Magdeburg, Germany, John Rosenberg begins the interview by discussing the importance of Judaism in his family's life growing up. His father was a Jewish schoolteacher and assisted the local rabbi while his mother kept a kosher household. Rosenberg's parents met in Idar-Oberstein after his father moved there to be a religious schoolteacher. His mother, Gerta, was a student of his father's. Although too young to remember much of the rise of the Nazi regime in 1933, John Rosenberg notes that his strongest memories are of his parents and from photographs that he was shown. When he started school in the first grade, Rosenberg remembers Hitler's decree that Jewish students would be separated from Aryan children. This decree led to his father organizing a school for Jewish schoolchildren where he attended first grade in Magdeburg, Germany. Rosenberg then recalls the night of Kristallnacht on November 11th, 1938, which he remembers very clearly. He describes his family's oppression during the Nazi regime. He mentions that some of his extended family were sent to Auschwitz concentration camp where they were then murdered. John Rosenberg and his immediate family immigrated to the United States on one of the last ships leaving Holland in 1940 before World War II broke out. He describes the name-changing process when they arrived at Ellis Island where his German name, Hans, was changed to John. John Rosenberg's father moved to Spartanburg, South Carolina to conduct services at the local synagogue. John and his family moved to Spartanburg shortly after in 1941 and started school. Growing up, he spent a lot of time participating in a predominantly Christian scout camp. He participated in prayers and sometimes he sang Christian hymns, recalling that it did not bother him much. As he discusses other experiences in the non-Jewish community, he reflects on his views on anti-Semitism and the fact that he didn’t face overt prejudice during his time in the scouts or since he came to the United States. He then talks about his life today and how he and his wife have good relations with the local Christian community, volunteering at the Presbyterian church's service ministry programs. He then describes the rituals that his family tried to continue when they came to the United States such as keeping Sabbath and going to the synagogue. Transitioning into a discussion on justice, John Rosenberg starts by quoting Isaiah in the Old Testament, &quot ; Justice, justice shall you pursue&quot ; when asked about the notion of justice within Judaism. When asked how he and wife ended up in eastern Kentucky, John recalls that he founded the Appalachian Research and Defense Fund which was involved in legal issues such as mineral rights and black lung and decided to join the branch in Prestonsburg, Kentucky. John Rosenberg also did a lot of the legal work that went along with purchasing the town and joined the Community Development Corporation which helped secure funding for the newly purchased town. The David School was formed in the community and it focused a lot on one-on-one education, which was why Rosenberg's daughter, Annie, left public school to go there. He then describes his children's current spiritual lives, saying that if they remembered their Jewish heritage that that would be good enough for him. Jean Rosenberg joins the discussion by describing her relationship with Judaism as a Quaker. They then discuss the dynamic of an interfaith marriage, saying they always celebrated Christmas and Hanukkah. John and Jean transition into a brief discussion on the Appalachian Research and Defense Fund (AppalReD), a legal aid program that John Rosenberg founded. They end the interview discussing their thoughts on Israel and with closing remarks. DONAHUE: Okay. It&#039 ; s July 1st, 2016. I&#039 ; m Arwen Donahue. And I&#039 ; m with John Rosenberg. This is an interview for the Jewish Foundation for Historical--sorry-the Jewish Fund for Historical Excellence oral history project. And, uh, thank you, very much for coming today, from JOHN ROSENBERG: --how you do, uh DONAHUE: --from Prestonsburg, Kentucky. JOHN ROSENBERG: Am I gonna talk to you or DONAHUE: --you&#039 ; re talking to me JOHN ROSENBERG: --talk to the camera? DONAHUE: Yeah JOHN ROSENBERG: --talk to you DONAHUE: --talk to me. Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Okay. Good. DONAHUE: That&#039 ; ll be easier. So, uh, would you just say for the record your name and your date of birth and where you were born? JOHN ROSENBERG: &#039 ; Kay. My name is John Rosenberg. And I was born in Magdeburg, Germany, on October 7th, 1931. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And how important was Judaism in your family? What role did religion play JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, it was DONAHUE: --in your early life JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, it was very important. Because my father had been educated as a Jewish schoolteacher. And, uh, so he, before schools were segregated--So the, the--my growing up as, uh--up to age seven, he was--he assisted the rabbi in that community with services and he worked in a Jewish welfare office. And we were a kosh Mother kept a kosher household. And it was not an Orthodox family but Ju Judaism and, and maintaining the Jewish customs and rituals were a significant part of our life, more so with my father&#039 ; s background, because his mother--uh, his mother&#039 ; s father, his grandfather, and his great grandfather were rabbis. So his mother--there was a very strong tradition of Judaism in his house. And he had, uh, eight brothers and sisters. He was from a large family--which wa--where--which was very--a very religious household. DONAHUE: What was your father&#039 ; s name? JOHN ROSENBERG: His name was Rudolf. They called him Rudi. And he had a brother named Zemi, Sam, and his sisters, Martha, Ola, Yetta, uh--let&#039 ; s see--Ellie Who have we forgotten. Four. Zemi. He had a brother who died. Uh, I may have left one out. But DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --but it was a large--a very large family--and, uh--that--you know, that had, because of this rabbinical background, even though his father--his father was a, uh, merchant he was a--he had a ju--he was a junk dealer. And he sold antiques. Unfortunately, he died, uh, at an early, uh, age, when my father was quite young. So that left his mother, Teresa, to raise these children, and, uh, which was a big task. And, in fact, uh, at one point, I think during his high school years, he was sent to an orphanage, uh, Hanover, where he finished high school--and then went on into the seminary. So he had a very complete Jewish education. In fact, as he tells it, on one of our own little oral histories of the family, the difference between him--uh, his education, as a Jewish schoolteacher, and someone who wants--would have become a rabbi is basically you had to go to become what we wou--in this country would call a PhD. So the rabbi&#039 ; s name--the rabbi was referred to as Dr. Wilde--and was W i l d e--important in our house. I mean, so he was my father he was, at that point, already in his seventies, I think, had a long, white, imposing beard. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --he conducted the services. So he was in charge o&#039 ; the congregation and had been for a number of years. And my father was sort of his right-hand person. If he didn&#039 ; t conduct the service, my father would conduct the services, at some po--at different times. So Dad I think I mentioned in my original interview you could--you could tell my father a phrase in the f--in the Old Testament in Hebrew and he could continue with the rest of it. He knew a--the whole--really, the whole Bible by heart-- DONAHUE: --yeah JOHN ROSENBERG: --astounding to me. DONAHUE: Yeah, yeah--(laughs)--very astounding. So let me just say for the record that, that we--you and I did an interview together, uh, in 1999 and 2000 and that interview, uh, in edited form, is in the book This Is Home Now: Kentucky&#039 ; s Holocaust Survivors--so that I&#039 ; ll make--uh, uh, be a reference for s--&#039 ; cause in this interview we&#039 ; re going to kind of focus more on Jewish life. But a more complete, uh, story of your life will be in that book. Uh, but, also, what was your mother&#039 ; s name? JOHN ROSENBERG: My mother&#039 ; s name was Gerta--uh, Schubach was her last name, S c h u-b a c h. And she was the daughter of a butcher. She has two sils--two sisters still living. Mother passed away, uh, th--in--2011-- DONAHUE: --yeah JOHN ROSENBERG: --12--2011, in Raleigh, at ninety--Well, had, uh, turned ninety-nine? Ninety-eight, ninety ei--nine--uh she was born in nineteen o--1911. My father was born in 1901. My mother was born in 1911. I was born in 1931. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --so, uh, this was a small--she wa--uh, they lived in a small town called Idar-Oberstein, in the Rhine Valley, along the river--is called the Nahe River. And, uh, her, her father, as I said, owned a--and mother h--owned a butcher sho--butcher store. And they had, uh, two other--she has two sisters. And they grew up in this town. Uh, the butcher, uh, shop was not a kosher they did--they slaughtered their animals right there. But, uh, the way my mother would tell it is, uh, my grandfather, on her side, re realized at an early age that he couldn&#039 ; t make a living if he was just a kosher butcher. And, uh, uh, so she grew up in that family, in this small town. It--I mean, it isn&#039 ; t like Prestonsburg, probably 15,000, 20,000. It&#039 ; s called Idar-Oberstein. On one side o&#039 ; the river, it&#039 ; s called Ida on the other side o&#039 ; the river, it&#039 ; s called Oberstein. She was on the Oberstein. It&#039 ; s a very picturesque little community. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: So they went to school and--uh, and through their, uh, public schools there. And my father came to that town as a--as, as his earliest--I think he may have had one short-term assignment--but he went there as a religious schoolteacher. And religion was taught, as I understand it, outside of the school. So during the school day, at various times, the children would have the excuse to have religious instruction. And he taught her, as a sixteen-year-old or fifteen, whatever. He came there and was there for two--came back--uh, h--and forth a couple times. I think he he, he was there for close to two years. And then he was--he got another position, in the larger town where I was born, called Magdeburg. And he came back and he courted her. And so I guess, by the time when they were married, in 1930, she woulda been nineteen. But she was his student in religious class. And then he actually took his meals with her family, uh-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --twice a day, I suppose. I&#039 ; m not really sure whether he came every night. But he had rented a place there. And so that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s how they got to know each other. DONAHUE: Uh, and you have one brother. Is that right? JOHN ROSENBERG: Have a brother Harry, who was born in 1936--he--in April. He&#039 ; s four and a half years younger. And then I have a sister, Teresa-Joan, who was born in this country-- DONAHUE: --okay-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --in 1946. And they are now in R--both in Raleigh, still living. DONAHUE: Okay. Um-hm. And would you describe your memories of the--the Nazi regime came to power in 1933, when you were very--too young to remember. So you came of age, uh, under Nazism in Germany. Uh, can you describe how you became aware of what was happening with the Nazis? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I wish I--you know, I wish I remembered more. But I, I, I think my s--uh, my strong memories are of my parents and just being with them, and on some outings to the park. And some o&#039 ; these things are from photographs I&#039 ; ve seen. But, uh, you know, uh, I&#039 ; m not sure that I was that aware of the shops that had, &quot ; No Jews allowed,&quot ; and wearing a star. I remember that, when I started s--by the time I started school in the first grade, Hitler had, uh, decreed that Jewish students would no longer go to school with, uh, other, Aryan children. And so the--my father, actually, and one other gentleman, who--I think his name was Hermann Schpiers--started--were the first two teachers and organized the school for Jewish schoolchildren--so, when I--which wasn&#039 ; t too far from our house. And so I was in my father&#039 ; s first-grade class, for over a year. I don&#039 ; t really have very good memories of having--of what we did in that particular school. Uh, and it must have been--it was pretty difficult, I think. I--uh, my nephew, Dan Rosenberg, who teaches at--who&#039 ; s at, uh--who&#039 ; s on the faculty in University of Oregon, has done a lot of research about this period. And with--and he was--ha--was in, uh, correspondence with a fellow in Australia, who wrote a PhD thesis about what was called the Magdeburger Jews. The Jews, when things got bad, went to--or didn&#039 ; t just come to the United States. They went to China. They went to Australia. They went to wherever they fou--could find a home. And, uh, a fair--apparently, a fairly large number of Jews from Magdeburg, uh, went to Australia. And this young man, in, uh--for his PhD thesis, did an oral history of the Magdeburger Jews, that were there, and interviewed quite a lot of them. And many of them described what was news--really news to me--was that they were--uh, were treated very--the--badly in the schools, as DONAHUE: --h JOHN ROSENBERG: --Hitler came to power and as this Aryan attitude of Jews being second-class citizens or not being allowed to be citizens at all took hold, and that they called the Jewish students names and they sang, uh, nasty songs about Jewish students. And so I&#039 ; m sure that, to some extent, they were very glad to see the segregated--the Jewish schools begin, so they wouldn&#039 ; t have to put up with this sort of thing. But, of course, that only lasted a couple of years, until Kristallnacht, when the--when the synagogues were burned down and when, I think, this, this--that school system probably collapsed. Because wh--I, uh--I don&#039 ; t think it continued after we left. DONAHUE: Right. JOHN ROSENBERG: Although some Jews were there, uh, for some time. They di--couldn&#039 ; t all get out. DONAHUE: And, uh, Kristallnacht you remember very clearly, right? JOHN ROSENBERG: I do remember Kristallnacht very clearly. And some of it&#039 ; s probably been brought back since the pictures--but I--that we&#039 ; ve seen and that you&#039 ; re familiar with too. Uh, Kristallnacht was, uh, November 11th, 1938. And, uh, we had in our home, at the time, although I didn&#039 ; t remember this initially--again, my--uh, my father&#039 ; s mother was living with us and, apparently, my father&#039 ; s brother. Uh, and he--whether he was around or not, uh, I&#039 ; m not sure. Because my recollection is being in this tight family circle, and having us all go outside into this courtyard, when the Nazis came, uh, knocked on our door, our apartment door, and had everybody go outside. We were living in the--in--right next door to the synagogue. And, uh, uh, as I said in the earlier book, they rousted us out. And it was early. And I was standing there with my mother and my little brother, who was--she was holding--he was a little over two years old, at the time--and my dad. And they w--burned down the--they were burning all the books. They brought the Torahs and all the prayer books into courtyard and made a bonfire. And then they dynamited the interior of the synagogue. And I think what I remember so well, as I--uh, because I had this picture in my mind, before I saw the photographs that we--eventually that my nephew found--was the way that upstairs balcony had collapsed, and, uh, after the bonfire, when we went in later. But I remember being with mother. Uh, I don&#039 ; t remember that my mys-myself. Whether my father or my mother passed this on--I think it was probably my mom who, who asked the Storm Trooper, &quot ; Are you gonna kill us?&quot ; And then he said he didn&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t remember tha--those words. I do remember the next morning I told some o&#039 ; these children in the schools that I was--uh, spent the night on a mattress, when we went back into the apartment, that everything had been torn pretty badly upside down and they ransacked the apartment and, uh, made a big mess. So they took a mattress and put it on the floor in the kitchen, where I spent the night. And I guess I woke up--or, when this--when the Storm Troopers came to arrest my father, the next morning, I mean, I remember that pretty vividly, that he was there. And then my mother said, &quot ; Can you wait, so I can make&quot ; my dad &quot ; a, a sandwich&quot ; --and, uh, running after him down the street, after she--I mean, they waited a little bit but they finally took him away. And, as you know, he said--well, my mother said, &quot ; Here, take this sandwich to him.&quot ; I ran after him down the street. I, I remember that pretty well. I don&#039 ; t remember too much about what happened after that. I mean, uh, my mother, uh, was left to figure out what to do. And I think many of the Jewish--Because they arrested all the Jewish men or many of the Jewish men. They arrested over 200. I mean, I&#039 ; m not sure wh--because there were about two--uh, several thousand Jews in Magdeburg. So who was actually arrested--I mean, they arrested the folks--my father and the rabbi and various members. Whether they were the professional or who they actually took, the 200 that they did take--and, uh, so she, uh, by her accounts, spent differ--and I guess they sent me, right away, to my aunt in Frankfurt, uh, my father&#039 ; s sister, uh, who was married, uh, to another fella, named DeFriese. And they had a son my age, named Bubi, that I&#039 ; ve mentioned. But, uh, whether I was with Mother a day or two or she sent--uh, they came and got me or even whether my--uh, uh, somebody too took me there. Now, my father and his brother, uh, were both arrested and both in Buchenwald. So they must have been together. But I don&#039 ; t have a good recollection of my Uncle Sam, Zemi--Uncle Sam--being--uh, being there. So, I mean, he--it just wasn&#039 ; t, I guess, that important to me--as my own family. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, and my, my, uh--obviously, my grandmother was there also. I don&#039 ; t remember them being in the courtyard--uh, and I&#039 ; ve really ever--but they had to--accordin&#039 ; to my mother, they were. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And so that&#039 ; s the w--that&#039 ; s the way that was. DONAHUE: And you mentioned that much of your extended family that you were with in Frankfurt were later killed. JOHN ROSENBERG: The family--that family, uh, the DeF--yeah. My--the two sisters--two o&#039 ; the sisters--I mean, the, the, uh, the, the town of Lehr, where they--I didn&#039 ; t mention the name o&#039 ; the town. My father grew up and my father--grandfather grew up in a town called Lehr, which is in the province, uh, Friesland, East Friesl--and it&#039 ; s East Friesland, which is on the coast, on the northwest coast of Germany. There is a group of island called the Frisian Islands. And it&#039 ; s very close to the Dutch border. So both of--two of the sisters married two f--two men named DeFriese. They were not related. Uh, then there--another sister, Yetta, married a gentleman named Van der Wyk. All very Dutch names--uh, Jewish. And I think, uh, they lived right on the border. I&#039 ; m not sure. I don&#039 ; t know much about--Uh, we know a little bit about their families. I know that Martha--uh, Dan DeFriese had a brother name--had a brother who was in the area also. But in any event, uh--How&#039 ; d I get off on this? What were you, uh-- DONAHUE: --well, uh, just was mentioned that you had said, in, uh-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --oh DONAHUE: --in that earlier interview that JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, uh DONAHUE: --much of your extended family had been murdered JOHN ROSENBERG: --right-- DONAHUE: --in the Holocaust. JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, we know that the family that I stayed with--So we stayed with, uh, Bubi&#039 ; s family in, uh, Frankfurt, uh, fo--until my father and brother--and his brother were released. They came back. And then they picked me up and took me to Magdeburg. And Daddy had a--they had thirty days to get outta the country. And so, uh, why they went and nobody else--so my father had spent a day or two in Berlin, in line, finally, uh, getting the proper visa applications and approvals to be able to go out of the country. And so h--they went, then, to--he and my mother and I and our family and Harry, my brother, went to Rotterdam. Uh, in Rotterdam there was another--one of his sisters, uh, Mary, was married and had four--she had four children--married to a businessperson, who was--at various times we called him a stockbroker. He sold furs and various things--but was--they were--lived--they were fairly well off. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: In fact, my mother, while they were there, would relate that she was--went babysitting, at p--wh when we were--in--we went t--when we went to Rotterdam, we stayed in this large--it was called a D Detention Center. The Dutch government had opened a number of Detention Centers--peop--where Jewish refugees could stay. But getting back to Frankfurt. So that family ultimately was--went, uh, either Auschwitz or Buchenwal--they were killed. And, uh, the two families that I had mentioned earlier, Martha DeFriese and Van der Wyk, they went--came to this country, uh, in 1936. They came over before all this happened-- DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --as many other Jewish families did, as did my mother&#039 ; s family. Her parents and the two sisters, who were very young at the--who were in their teens at the time, came over. And they move--came to New York, in 1936, around that same time. And, uh, one of Dad&#039 ; s--uh, one o&#039 ; my--other sisters went--at the time, went to Argentina, and got married. DONAHUE: One of your dad&#039 ; s other sisters. JOHN ROSENBERG: One of the Rosenberg DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, sisters. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, Ola was her name. And she met a person in Argentina, was married and then divorced, and eventually came to New York also. Uh, Yetta Van der--Van der Wyk and the DeFrieses came to this country. Now, the family in Rotterdam, that was there, that we were--this, this camp really was not a prison. It was just--nobody had any money. And so there&#039 ; s very little they could do. But they were free to go away on weekends or they could get a week--I don&#039 ; t know it was formally get a pass. But they had the weekends. They were able to take off. And so we often visited with that family, although I don&#039 ; t re--the children were quite small. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And so Mother, uh, took care of them for a week once, when they went on a vacation. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I remember she complained, when she got back. She said they, they asked her if she gave the kids a bath or if she did some cer--took care of them, in a certain way, and they weren&#039 ; t--at least my aunt did--uh, and they weren&#039 ; t--she didn&#039 ; t think they were appropriately thankful for having had that done a--having her babysit for a week DONAHUE: --yeah JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, with all four children. But, uh, during that period, my father started the school in the camp--he didn&#039 ; t--uh, for children. Because there was no school. And, uh, he did that every day. And he always liked to teach by what we call the Socratic method in this country, by asking questions. And so he would drill children orally with math and tell them--tell stories. And I don&#039 ; t know what he did for supplies or--but he kept the school going during that year. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, of course, uh, I think as I mentioned, by the end of, uh, his tenure, we were--you know, uh, fortunately, we came to this country. But, uh, the Dutch government, apparently, had heard that he was conducting this school and had done this, so they wanted him to open a school at Westerborg, which was the camp that Jews were taken to in Holland before they sh--were shipped to Auschwitz. DONAHUE: Right. JOHN ROSENBERG: And so AR: --uh, a transit camp. JOHN ROSENBERG: The transit AR: --yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah. AR: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: And so people stayed there for a week or two or three AR: -um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --until they--trains--every week the train would leave and go to Auschwitz. AR: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And they&#039 ; d fill up the train. Another load of people would be sent, to their death, uh, in Auschwitz. And, uh--uh, but, when Dad heard that was what he was suppose--would be his next assignment, uh, he decided to take things in his own hands. And he knew that there had been a commi--that a committee--it was getting--things were getting worse and worse. There were many more people there than could be accommodated by the boats. And so, even though people had their papers, they had to figure out--there was a Jewish Com--the Jewish Committee, that had to figure out a way of handling the selection of who could go and who would not go. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh--I don&#039 ; t know. I think I may have mentioned this in the--in the earlier interview, uh, and maybe not. But what, what, uh, my father related to us was that, that, uh, while he was still in the congregation in Germany, uh, he was visited by one of the members of the Jewish Welf--I don&#039 ; t remember which committee it is, whether it&#039 ; s the Jewish, uh--uh, National Jewish Fund or whoever it was in Germany. They were raising money. And so--because the, the fundraiser came to Magdeburg. And he was--they pointed him towards my dad, because my father knew the members of the community and could identify who he thought were the people that might make sizable contributions. And so, as he tells it, they spent a week--almost a week together visiting member--congregants in Magdeburg. And so fast-forward to when we were in Holland in the camp. My dad had heard that this committee was interviewing people. And I don&#039 ; t know what the process was for interviewing, uh, who they selected when--but he decided to go to the committee. And he waited to the end of the day. And he knocked on the door an--to this committee. And he opened the--they said, &quot ; Come in,&quot ; and he went in. And who was doing the interviewing but the same person who he had spent a week with in Magdeburg-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --fundraising. And the man looked up at him and he said, &quot ; Rosenberg, what are you doing here?&quot ; DONAHUE: Oh. JOHN ROSENBERG: And he said, &quot ; Well--(laughs)--I&#039 ; m here and I&#039 ; m trying to figure out how we&#039 ; re going to get to the United States.&quot ; And so he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ll see what I can do for you.&quot ; DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, uh, I don&#039 ; t know that man&#039 ; s name. But we were among those who were able to get out. DONAHUE: Yeah. Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: So, fortuitous. DONAHUE: Uh, so he, he probably saved your life. JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah. DONAHUE: Uh, did your--was your dad concerned that, if he was sent to do that teaching job at Westerborg, that he would be among those who would just be sent JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, I think he DONAHUE: --eventually, to Auschwitz-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --I don&#039 ; t know whether he knew that, uh, that--uh, whether they knew already that this was a transition camp to Auschwitz but I think he knew enough to think that, if they moved him to that camp, and the family, that the future would not look bright. I think it was already clear that, if the war started and Germany invaded Holland--which wasn&#039 ; t too much later--uh, that things were just going to get worse and that, uh, we would be killed. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, he never talked about it. And, o&#039 ; course, at this point you sorta wish you had more information and why. But when he describes this incident, he b--he says that he knew that, if he had--if we had gone to Westerborg, we probably would never have gotten outta the country. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, uh, and, uh--and we&#039 ; ve been--we visited Westerborg, a few years ago. They have very good records of people who were there and who went off to Auschwitz and DONAHUE: --yeah JOHN ROSENBERG: --that sorta thing. Bu but that&#039 ; s what he--the way he told it. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: So h--it fel--that&#039 ; s what spurred him on to take some action on his own-- DONAHUE: --yeah-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --and really did save our lives. DONAHUE: So you came on a ship--you left on a ship in 1940. It was one of the last ships to leave Holland before World War II? JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, right. DONAHUE: Well, World War II had started by then bu JOHN ROSENBERG: --it was the Holland--um, it made another--our--uh, we always thought it was--or that it was the last ship. But my nephew determined that it actually made another, uh, uh, voyage or two, mostly haul--not hauling many passengers. But it made another trip or two for the Holland America Line, uh, and before the war started. Now, it happened--but my uncle and my mother, my grandmother were supposed to come out on one of the next boats. And they--uh, my uncle had actually--now where he was during those years, we really don&#039 ; t know, whether he went--after the concentr--after he got out--when my mom--my dad and he were released, whether--he probably went back to Lehr, would be my guess, and to try to salvage what there was of the family&#039 ; s belongings. Uh, because he eventually came back to Rotterdam, because his--and his mother was there. Uh, where she was, I&#039 ; m not really sure. We, we later found out the little village where my grandmother, my dad&#039 ; s mother, went in Holland, went to live there, until shortly before the war ended. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --th the Germans knew where all these people were. But anyway, Zemi, at least, was--had put his belongings on the ship. Because it was supposed to leave, the ne next day. And then the war broke out. And then the ships were bombed in the harbor. And so he did not get out and my grandmother didn&#039 ; t get out. Uh, he was sent to a concentration camp--uh, I can&#039 ; t remember if he went to Buchenwald first--and my grandmother also. And then he DONAHUE: --(coughs) Excuse me JOHN ROSENBERG: --eventually--he was married in the concentration camp, to a woman named Betty Schnuck. And Jean and I met her in Israel, after the war. He was killed duri--in the concentration camp. There&#039 ; s some question--my, my nephew found some evidence that he may have committed suicide. Because, uh, the story was that he was--he ran the leather-working shop and that he had started speaking out against the Nazis. And it was towards, towards the end o&#039 ; the war, actually. But he knew that he was going to be killed. And whether he killed himself or whether they shot--uh, killed him, uh, same thing. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, but, uh, we did meet his wife. And then she remarried in Israel. She&#039 ; s a lovely woman. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and, uh, his mother, my father&#039 ; s mother, Zemi&#039 ; s mother, this--she lived, uh, really, to the end of 1944. And then--she had gone to a, a small town in Holland. And, uh, they knew--uh, as I said, th they knew where she lived. And the, the Germans would just roust--would methodically pick up the German Jews or the Jews who were living in Holland, over a period of time, and pick &#039 ; em up, when they were ready, and brought &#039 ; em up to Westerborg and loaded the trains and--so eventually, they got around to her. And people who were living there, some--uh, remembered that, when she--they came for her, she said, &quot ; I need to have my prayer book,&quot ; which was apparently one o&#039 ; the last things she said to anybody. So then they took her and she went to the concentration camp. And then she was killed. And she pro--must have been, in the forties, you know, probably in her late eighties or early nineties, by that time. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --so--and the same thing with Zemi. Uh, so a substantial--the people other than the ones who had gone to this country, everybody was killed, including the family in Rotterdam. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah. DONAHUE: What do you remember about the journey to the United States? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I think I--uh, uh, for, for a, uh, seven -eight-year-old, it&#039 ; s a fun--it was really an exciting adventure, I think, uh, just being on a ship. And, uh, I&#039 ; ve told people, uh, one of the highlights of the journey was seeing the, uh, first--the colorized--the first color movie, uh, seeing The Wizard of Oz on the ship, even though I couldn&#039 ; t speak English. But you could get the gist of it. And, uh--and, uh, being aware--and again, I don&#039 ; t know if this is more what I learned afterwards. But I know that people were concerned about mines. And so everybody&#039 ; s lookin&#039 ; out for these mines floating on top of the ocean and, uh, sea, where we were leaving, when we left Rotterdam. It was a long trip. I mean, I don&#039 ; t know that I remember really very much else about it. I&#039 ; m sure the family was really overjoyed to be on--to be on the way. Then we came to New York. It was really my mother&#039 ; s family, that was in New York, that met us. And, uh, they had a small apartment in Washington Heights, that--with--and we--it wasn&#039 ; t that small. It was actually, you know, for a small family. They had a bedroom--anyway, they had two or three bedrooms in this apartment in Washington Heights. And we moved in with them for a while. And, think as I mentioned earlier, my mother&#039 ; s sister--so 1940, I guess, she was probably in her thirties--gave me a quarter and said, &quot ; This is a lotta money. Take care of this quarter.&quot ; And so we--uh, I don&#039 ; t really remember a whole lot more, except--you know, my German name was Hans. And when you got off the boat, s--the Hanses often became John. And we have another--uh, an uncle named J-Hans, who also became a John. Uh, I saw a documentary the other day that--in which they said that the people on Ellis Island didn&#039 ; t really change people&#039 ; s name. Maybe they didn&#039 ; t change their last names. I mean, a lot of people change their names in this country. They had long names, from Poland and from other--Germany, that were hard to pronounce and they changed their names. But--uh, but the Hanses became John, along the way, so whether they did that, uh, on a passport or however they did it. And my brother&#039 ; s name was Horst. So he became Harry. Uh, and we left our middle names where they were. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: My father&#039 ; s name was Rudolf and kept that Rudolf. And then--uh, Hitler said that--uh, again, uh, by some form of decree, that all Jewish men had--would take a middle name of Israel and women would become Sarah. And so--But my dad decided to keep that middle name of Israel. Uh, and, uh--uh, I don&#039 ; t know. Mother--but he--but later, after the war, he made sure that my birth certificate, which had the Israel on it--that he went back and had them put a little note in there, that you--I think I&#039 ; ve mentioned before, and which said you--the Israel&#039 ; s gone, uh DONAHUE: --hm¬ JOHN ROSENBERG: --I can go back to my middle name of Meinhardt, which is a DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --which is what it is. DONAHUE: Uh, interesting that he kept-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh DONAHUE: --he kept it for himself and he wanted to make sure that you didn&#039 ; t have it. JOHN ROSENBERG: I think he wanted that--uh, he wanted--uh, I mean, he felt strongly about Israel as a country. And I think he l--in a way, liked the name. But he said--I guess--whether he did it so he would never forget himself--but that&#039 ; s what had happened. Uh DONAHUE: --but maybe he was wanting to protect you from any stigma that the name might place on you? JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh--I don&#039 ; t know. I mean, we never really talked about it. I didn&#039 ; t know it till after we found the document. I don&#039 ; t remember when he did it. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, they went back to Austria, I mean--and to Germany after the war, uh, in the summers, later on, after my father--when they retired. So he must have sent this document to Magdeburg, to somebody. Uh, because he went to a little effort to get it done. DONAHUE: Uh-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh DONAHUE: --I&#039 ; m just gonna summarize a little bit, in the interest of time, since, uh, the--you have such a rich life story and there are so many things we could get into--and last time we did an interview, we spent 11 hours doing--and we don&#039 ; t have that kind of time. (laughs) So you went to--you moved to South Carolina first, to Spartanburg and later to Gastonia. And, uh, I wonder if you would talk--and your, your father became a leader, uh, in the Jewish community, such as it was, there. And you, you&#039 ; ve described how JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. I went back. And, uh, I th--you know, uh, uh, Dad was--it was very hard to find work in New York, when we first came, there were so many immigrants. I think I mentioned, uh, my mother cleaned houses. And all these women did a lotta work--uh, piecework at home, making little--uh, slippers and all kinds of things you could--that were--there were--they could work at at home, and for various businesses. Uh, the companies that made slippers would have women hand-knit little embroidery on there or button--sew buttons. And they did that at home. But my father looked around. And I guess he was pretty unsuccessful and never had any good advice about how he could become a schoolteacher in this country. Uh, and so, uh, he--I think in the interview, initially, I had said that he ended up going ho going to Gastonia and Spartanburg to--and started sweeping floors in a textile mill, which he did. But apparently, he had learned that neither Gastonia nor Spartanburg had a rabbi. And someone had mentioned that, i if he came, that he would be perf-performing a service and have some compensation for conducting services in, uh, Spartanburg and Gastonia. So he went down to Spartanburg, South Carolina and started conducting services, uh, wh--pretty remarkable, &#039 ; cause he was really still lear-learning to speak English. And during the week, he swe s--was sweeping floors in a fac--in the textile mill, the Dixie Shirt Company. And then, on alternate weekends, he went to Gastonia, North Carolina, and did the s--and conducted those services. Uh, because neither DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --place had a rabbi. And, uh, I guess--and then he got to know the people in that congregation. And so we started school. I started school in Spartanburg. And it wa--first, uh, my dad was there for about six months without us. He was saving money, so he could buy some furniture on time and find an apartment, and which he did. And so eventually we joined him, my mother and the--brother and I, in a small apartment in a poor part o&#039 ; town. Or was a nice little street. But people were working people. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and, uh, uh, the other family, the fellow who lived there, uh, was a manager of a department store in town. Uh, but I started school. And my brother was still too young for kinder--he was home--let&#039 ; s see. At 1941, he was, at that point, five--four and a half, five years old. And I think he was home until he was--the first grade. And so, uh, that&#039 ; s where I started school. DONAHUE: And you just JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh DONAHUE: --learned English by being just, uh, immersed in, in school, just by-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --immersed. Uh, right. Well, the first--actually, in New York, the first six months we were there, when we were waiting to be with my father--uh, uh, the school--New York school ha--uh, system had a way of bringing foreign children, immigrant children together. And they were in a separate class. And I went to P.S. 132, on--Washington Heights. It was probably, uh, maybe a f--close to a mile a walk, down 180th Street. And, uh--uh, and there were a fair number of German kids, I think, of kids who came from Germany. But there were some others. And, uh, they just--they had you stay together until you sort of learned enough. In the meantime, you were also out in the neighborhood playing. And children, I think, learn the language, you know, much faster than their adults, especially the adults who are talkin&#039 ; German to each other all the time. &#039 ; Cause my mother and her--She was working. And with her sisters--they were still speaking German. Uh, I remember for many years they still spoke German to each other. They eventually got away from it. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, but, uh--but so I&#039 ; d learned, uh, a fair amount, I guess, of English, before I came to Spartanburg. Although my parents were a little bit behind us. And, uh, you always, uh--I remember--I think I might have mentioned this. When you were walkin&#039 ; down the street with them in public, you&#039 ; re always sorta yanking on their sleeves, saying, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t talk German to each other. Talk English. Talk English.&quot ; But--uh, uh, but that--you sort of picked it up pretty quickly. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: I think it was harder, really--was to--uh, for my parents, as adults, to understand the culture-- DONAHUE: --uh-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --where things are so different, uh, where children may have a party at somebody&#039 ; s house and, uh, do you send them or not. Or baseball is new and football is new and basketball is new. And the school curriculum is different. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, just getting used to the custom. Now, being in the Jewish community, where he was so--even in Spartanburg--We were there for two years. And I believe, sometime during that period, they actually hired a rabbi. So my dad was still working. But he was helping with services. And I think people appreciated his, uh, uh, extraordinary knowledge of Hebrew and of Jewish customs and being a very intellectual, bright person DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --and realized what his knowledge base was. Uh, although, you know, we were the only poor Jewish family in the community, as fa--pretty much. Most of the Jewish, uh, members of the commu--of the congregation had stores downtown, that w--had been there for a number of years--or their parents. The same is true in so many Southern communities, where the grandparents had come as peddlers and, over time and especially during the war years, their children became retail merchants in these communities--and lar--and had stores. And then, in Gastonia, you know, a couple o&#039 ; the families actually were owners of textile mills, uh, were quite wealthy. So, uh, their social life was a whole lot different. And I think, to some extent, that explained why we had many friends who were not Jewish. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And they would send their kids off to camp for the summer, which my parents couldn&#039 ; t afford. And I would go to Scout camp or DONAHUE: --uh-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: I was working after school, most of the time. DONAHUE: So you were f--you went to a public school and your fr--your friends were not necessarily Jewish. JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah. I mean, and there were very few Jewish kids in--a a--in Spartanburg, where I was only through--I think, through the si--for two and a half years, we were in Spartanburg. So really, I always ha--we grew up in G--I grew up in Gastonia. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh, the congregation, there were probably 75 Jewish families. But in--let&#039 ; s say, in our high school, I was the only Jewish student in my class. Uh, there were two or three others, who were c--a year or two behind me. And so, uh, normally--now s--those students often--the other Jewish kids, whose families were a little better off, a lot of them in Gastonia--the, the Jewish community in Gastonia was very close to the Jewish community in Charlotte, a bigger city, twenty miles away. And some of those Jewish f--children were members of--uh, would, uh, be together with, uh, Jewish kids in Charlotte and would visit back and forth. And there were some Jewish organizations, civic organizations, and junior civic organizations for kids. Uh, trying to remember--DeMolay--what the name of those, uh, organizations is. But, A, we didn&#039 ; t have--uh, uh, I wouldn&#039 ; t normally go to the--uh, uh, do that, both--because eventually it either meant my folks taking me or--I probably made a few trips to Charlotte and got to know them. But the kids were in summer--in camps in the summer together, which were pretty expensive. And, uh--and so it d--generally, the activities of people who have, uh, more money, they&#039 ; re gonna travel more, they&#039 ; re gonna do things that are--uh, that people who don&#039 ; t have a lot of money, uh, wo--wouldn&#039 ; t normally do. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and so, you know, we worked and we were a close family. And so many of my friends were friends who were from working families, who were not Jewish. And, uh, so--or--and, as I said in the book, scouting became a big part o&#039 ; my life DONAHUE: --yeah JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, uh, uh, even though--and the Jewish--the young--the Jewish, uh, boys who were in scouting, from our congregation, all became Eagle Scouts. There was just a whole series of them. And they were all members of the same troop, in the Presbyterian church. And we eventually bec--and we were, uh, welcomed there. And then I was a counselor for several years, as I had DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --previously mentioned. DONAHUE: Uh, and JOHN ROSENBERG: --and what DONAHUE: --uh, were you a--remind us. Were you asked JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah DONAHUE: --to say prayers or participate in any JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, what I said--what I did, the, the second or th--I think it was actually my last summer. I was a counselor in this lovely camp in Tryon, North Carolina, in the mountains, for three years. And the last summer, when I was a senior there, uh, the sh--uh, Scout executive asked me to be the camp chaplain, which was, uh, you know, unusual, for a young Jewish man to be the ch--camp chaplain. And that entailed--most of these Scout troops, uh, are--have a minister with them. They&#039 ; re--m many of them are sponsored by churches. And the Scout leader isn&#039 ; t necessarily a minister. Sometimes they are. But generally, the, the minist--oftentimes, the minister comes along. And so, when the ministers show up, on a--they come at the beginning o&#039 ; the week. Uh, I would sit down with them and we would--uh, would, uh, s--uh, work out the vesper services. And--uh, and then I learned the hymn. And most of--you know, you&#039 ; d have Presbyterians and Baptist and Episcopalian, whoever the church groups were. And so, during that summer, I learned quite a few of the Christian hymns, that I normally would not have been exposed to. But, uh--and, uh--and, uh DONAHUE: --and would you feel okay about singing them? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, uh, I think, originally, you know--my dad--when, when we first came to, uh, Spartanburg, South Carolina, I think--I remember when--uh, because there was--uh, people--the--there was prayer in the schools, in those early days, still, before that stopped. And so--and at Christmas time, people were singing Christmas hy--uh, s--would sing Christmas--and my dad sent a s--a note to the teacher, asking that I not be required to sing those. Uh, since then, over the years, you know, uh, sometimes I&#039 ; d--uh, I certainly sang during Scout camp. I mean, it didn&#039 ; t bother so much, uh, at that point. It&#039 ; s not--I guess I go back and forth. And, of course, you know, as you know, I&#039 ; m married to--Jean&#039 ; s a Quaker. And so--uh, uh, and we&#039 ; ve been to many, many--uh, we don&#039 ; t live in a very heavily--heavy Jewish community, in, uh, Prestonsburg, or since we&#039 ; ve been in, uh--since we&#039 ; ve been married, over the f--over our forty-some years--forty-nine, going on fifty. We have, uh, actually not lived in many communities where there are a whole lot of Jewish families. But, uh--and so sometimes I sing along and sometimes I don&#039 ; t. DONAHUE: Uh--um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: But I know many of those songs by heart. And I certainly did that summer. (Donahue laughs) Uh, so that&#039 ; s where I got a lot of grounding in--and I think it went both ways. I think those ministers were, uh, glad to--would learn--uh, can&#039 ; t remember how many conversations we had about the fact--I didn&#039 ; t always open it up by saying, &quot ; I&#039 ; m Jewish.&quot ; But there are not many Rosenbergs in that area who were not Jewish. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, so DONAHUE: --so it was known--it was known, uh, generally, in the troop, in the Scout troop, that you were Jewish? JOHN ROSENBERG: Oh, the, the, the Scout troop, certainly, uh DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and the Scout camp and the (??), who--yeah. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --people were aware that I was Jewish. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: I&#039 ; m sure I didn&#039 ; t announce, uh, at the beginning o&#039 ; the week that, uh, the Jewish--the chaplain is Jewish. But DONAHUE: --right--(laughs) JOHN ROSENBERG: --but I--yeah. DONAHUE: Did you ever experience any antisemitism, i in the Boy Scouts JOHN ROSENBERG: --you know DONAHUE: --or elsewhere-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --I think we tal--uh, uh, I just have not been really that aware of Jew--of any, uh, overt-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --antisemitism in my life. I was reading--rereading the book and I was thinking about that again. And, uh, I&#039 ; m not--you know, I&#039 ; m just, uh--uh, since, since we&#039 ; ve come to this country, we&#039 ; ve been so fortunate. I mean, we&#039 ; ve--uh, have lived through this period where we tried to change some, uh, uh, of the--or at least hoped that we would see racism--overt racism end. And you&#039 ; ve seen a lot of great progress in the gay community. Uh, and, uh, we know that there is antisemitism around. Uh, we know--uh, I mean, it hasn&#039 ; t been long since the Pope apologized--right--for the Catholic view of Ju--of--that Jews killed Jesus. Uh, and I know that, uh, the Anti-Defamation League--I mean, there are stories. The Klan is still alive and well, in some places. I mean, there is a lot of bigotry around. There&#039 ; s more than enough to go around. Uh, but I, I don&#039 ; t--but it has really never--I&#039 ; ve never really thought that it was a factor in my life, particularly. Uh, we &#039 ; ve been really very fortunate. I mean, I think, as I mentioned in the book, we have people who, you know--uh, uh, people in our area who, uh, like us and think well of us and are worried that we&#039 ; re going to go to hell, because we&#039 ; re not saved. Right. And they, they really do. Uh, uh, but, uh, uh, that&#039 ; s, uh--that&#039 ; s because they&#039 ; re so, uh, convinced of their own view. It&#039 ; s not because of their antisemitism. In fact, so many of them feel, uh, akin, feel close to--I mean, li--uh, have a--have a devotion to Israel-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and Palestine before. And you have Jews for Jesus and you have, uh, even strong Baptists and people who feel close to the fact that we are the children of God and there&#039 ; s something special about it. But there&#039 ; s still that worry that somethin&#039 ; s gonna--we&#039 ; re doomed if we don&#039 ; t--if we&#039 ; re not saved. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And they feel that as much about Jean as about you, when you say &quot ; we,&quot ; you thin-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, I think they feel that way, probably. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, I don&#039 ; t know--they--uh, how many of them really have learned that much about Quakerism. Uh, most of them--uh, most people in eastern Kentucky have never met anybody who&#039 ; s Jewish, or many of the chil--now when we ask in the classes, &quot ; How many of you have met someone who&#039 ; s Jewish?&quot ; there are usually a few hands that go up. Because they&#039 ; ve either been to a camp in the summer or they&#039 ; ve met somebody in some school group. Uh, I think Quaker--uh, being--there are--Quaker, even more so. I mean, people just, in our area, don&#039 ; t really know what--who Quakers are. Would you say? Uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --oatmeal boxes. (Donahue laughs) JOHN ROSENBERG: Quaker Oats. DONAHUE: They know what Quaker Oats are. JOHN ROSENBERG: But, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I think people love Jean. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, there have been so many women who&#039 ; ve been through her program, when she was running the--so running the single parent program at the college, and are forever coming up to us--uh, when she was teaching childbirth and saying, &quot ; Here&#039 ; s this fella. Here&#039 ; s this young baby. And now he&#039 ; s a&quot ; DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --you know, &quot ; six-foot-six basketball player&quot ; DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --somebody in the grocery store. So, uh, yeah, I th--I, I think their feeling about us pretty much the same. I mean, not everybody feels that way. And I don&#039 ; t think there are that many individuals spend a lotta time thinkin&#039 ; about it. But I know we are in the Bible Belt. I m--uh, we are. And we were in North Carolina and South Carolina. Uh, and those--Uh, that&#039 ; s a very strong part of many--of the faith of many o&#039 ; the Christian, uh, community. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: So it&#039 ; s there but--and, you know. And they know we&#039 ; re home on Sundays. We&#039 ; re not at the JEAN ROSENBERG: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --we&#039 ; re seldom--every once in a while, we may go to a church service, for one reason or another, because somebody&#039 ; s visiting or because we like the minister or--I mean, we do to go church once in a while. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, for many years, Jean--we were very involved in the Presbyterian Church. Because Christian Service Ministry is--uh, was a service organization that Jean had a lot to do with, and starting Meals on Wheels an--and a lot of what happens in our communities is through the faith community. So, you know, you--but we&#039 ; re--w we don&#039 ; t belong to any o&#039 ; those churches or DONAHUE: --um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: We do belong to the synagogue in Huntington now. Uh DONAHUE: --so going back a bit, to when you arrived in the United States and your, your education had been interrupted by Nazism and war and coming, uh, overseas and being, being a refugee and coming to a new country, uh, how did you develop a sense of Jewish identity, uh, once you arrived in the United States? Uh, what, what was that identity? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I mean, I think that--I think, uh, uh, the immigrants who came, uh, who were Jewish, who fled Nazi Germany, if anything, uh, uh, I think my--you know, that it may have even intensified the--their feeling of their religion. I think you--if you study Jewish history, you can&#039 ; t help but be struck by the notion that people--that Jews have survived over and over again, through the worst kinds of pogroms, going back thousands of years. And so it&#039 ; s a little like Fiddler on the Roof, a lot of it. It&#039 ; s tradition. I mean, the people who came, when they came to this country, I&#039 ; m sure the--my dad and others would--the f--one of their first questions is where do you go to pray, where is the synagogue. I don&#039 ; t know that w--and, uh, those rituals keep you going, the rituals on Friday night and on Saturday, and maintaining the Sabbath on Saturday, which--and, you know, as I mentioned--and then, in this country, uh, making the transition from being kosher, from being a very religious home--I know that mother&#039 ; s father--I mean, on Friday night things stopped. And you have your service in the home. And you went to a synagogue, wherever it was. And there are various degrees of that and to the extent to which families can, uh, I think--and in my family, that continued. In Spartanburg or in Gastonia, Friday nights, things stop--and, for many years, Saturdays. And I think, uh, gradually--or even in New York, you realize the business cycle in this country or the working day. It&#039 ; s Sunday that was the day off. And so, unless you were, uh, an Orthodox Jew, who is not going to give at all--or unless somebody&#039 ; s--something unusual happens--I mean, an Orthodox Jew, from Friday night to Saturday night, uh, that&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s the Sabbath. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: When you move south, especially, where you&#039 ; re not in a Jewish, uh, atmosphere, where the retail merchants depend on Saturdays as being a big trading day--there are--you know, there will be some, uh--uh, probably some few exceptions, where somebody&#039 ; s gonna say, &quot ; Closed on Saturday.&quot ; But over time, in most of these communities, where--the Jewish communities, where you had Jewish merchants, their stores were open Saturday. So they--and so those congregations were--largely became Reform congregations, and t--maybe Conservative congregations, that had services on Saturday morning, where you--somebody could go to services and then be back out by noon and be back in their store in the afternoon. And they started having Sunday schools. I mean, Sunday schools, which are the creature of Christian education, as part DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --along with the church service, wasn&#039 ; t anything that existed in the Jewish scheme of things, for many--until folks came to this country. Or maybe they&#039 ; re in other countries also. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: But--(clears his throat)--it just be--developed that Sunday schools--that Jewish communities have Sunday schools, at which time they educate their kids in the mornings--(coughs)--and on Sunday mornings. DONAHUE: Did you go to any kind of school, uh, Sunday JOHN ROSENBERG: --I&#039 ; m sor DONAHUE: --did you--what kind of religious education did you have, once you (John coughs)--got to this country? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, when we were in Spartanburg an and in Gastonia--the congregation in Gastonia, Temple Emanuel, had probably fifty or sixty Jewish families, about the same as Spartanburg. And they&#039 ; d have Sunday school. And so--I don&#039 ; t remember as much about the one in Spartanburg. &#039 ; Cause we really weren&#039 ; t there that long. Uh, but, in Gastonia, there were enough children--as I said earlier, the high school, there were only four or five or six of us in our--in the high school at the same time. But, uh, we had a Sunday school. And we had teachers, members of the community that volunteered, who taught Sunday school, the same as they do in church--in, in churches on Sunday morning. And the rabbi would have a little part o&#039 ; that. And, uh--and that&#039 ; s when the kids would get together--and then w the same with bar mitzvahs. You know, when a Jewish young man becomes of age, at the age of thirteen, uh, young Jewish men go through this process of learning--or, uh, depending on the intensity of the education--you are working towards leading the service, having the sermon, reading out from the Torah scrolls DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and--called coming of age, at age thirteen. So the rabbi in Gastonia, at that point, named Rabbi Silverman, ga--I would go every week, uh, once or twice a week for instruction. And then on my birthday, on the thirteenth birthday, the Friday night that coincided with that, we had a big service. And you invited all our friends. Or I think there may have been more non Jews than Jews, by that time. Because we had--I&#039 ; d been--I was--well, been there two years but my people--you invite your friends. There&#039 ; s a party. And you get a gift. You get gifts. And so it&#039 ; s a big affair. But then now--and then I have, in addition to that--because girls are not m--there is, now, something called a bas mitzvah for girls-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --which Reformed Judaism has brought in. And then there&#039 ; s also a confirmation, which include--which is really another year of education, Jewish education, uh, which boys and girls can do together. Uh, and so there, there are sort of variations on a theme. But, I mean, I think the point is really--when answering your question, is that it&#039 ; s those traditions that keep you going, that keep a family going, and that keep Judaism going. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And so, when you--uh, because of that, I think, you have had s--resistance to--uh, in--certainly in Orthodox and maybe, to some extent, in Conservative congregations, to Jewish men marrying outside the faith. Because once you--if y--when you do that, you have to sort of make--figure out where you&#039 ; re going. And y--it&#039 ; s not all Judaism. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: But I think that the identity and being Jewish, uh, uh, has always been a very big part of my life. I mean, it&#039 ; s not the most important thing in my life. Maybe Jean&#039 ; s the most important thing in my life. And what she says, I do. (Donahue laughs) But, uh, uh--so in our family, certainly during my growing up years, uh, doing--as long as, uh, we were home--or even when were away, when I went off to college or my brother went off to college or my sister--If you came home on a Friday night, your d--you&#039 ; d be there and, without fail, my father would lead the service. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and then you--and, if you were home, as we often tried to be, for holidays, either for the High Holidays, Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, or for Passover, those were important family gatherings. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and those traditions kept going, from year to year. And we&#039 ; ve tried to keep those traditions going too, I mean, in our house. We do DONAHUE: --so did you enjoy them, as a--as a child and a young man? Did you enjoy those rituals and those traditions? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I--enjoy is a funny word. I think, when you&#039 ; re young, uh, it&#039 ; s what you grow up with. So sometimes you might become a little impatient--(laughs)--with the length of a service, or even an Orthodox service today. I mean, for some persons, some members of--who are really, uh, so taken with their religion that they find nothing they love more than being in the synagogue or in church and praying all day--I mean, that&#039 ; s what a monk&#039 ; s life is, I suppose. I--we always enjoyed--I liked our family gatherings DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --and enjoy--Mom would make a big meal. I mean, all--I think the answer is yes, uh, to the family traditions. DONAHUE: Yeah. I guess I&#039 ; m wondering what about that you have carried with you, over the course of your life, if there-if there&#039 ; s anything from tha that tradition that--uh, that ritual--those rituals that you&#039 ; ve drawn upon. Because you have mentioned, in pa--in the past interviews, that being Jewish is important to you, in the--(John coughs)--in the sense tha--I think one o&#039 ; the phrases that you repeated was that Judaism is founded on the--on the notion of justice JOHN ROSENBERG: --um-hm DONAHUE: --or the theory of justice-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --um-hm DONAHUE: --and that&#039 ; s been a guiding principle, throughout your life, the importance of justice. Uh, so how did you distill that, that knowledge from what you learned, tha that that&#039 ; s what Judaism is, at, at heart? JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, well, I think, uh--I think that&#039 ; s a hard one to answer. Because I do think it&#039 ; s a religion that I feel very proud of and that I agree with. Uh, I mean, we all find, over time, things that are--uh, we become a little more flexible. I mean, we begin--(clears his throat) you believe that the stories in the Bible and the Old Testament are, uh, are there f for various lessons. I&#039 ; m not sure that uh, you know, I, I think, uh, being married to Jean and understanding--uh, or trying to understand is what--passive--be--uh, being a pacifist, way over here, having God, in the Old Testament, be such a--(coughs)--retribution to those who have not--who aren&#039 ; t--who are the enemies of Israel in the Bible, those sorts of things--(coughs)--excuse me--are, uh, somethin&#039 ; , you just have to figure out where you&#039 ; re go--how, how important that is. And--(clears his throat)--but, uh, I, uh--well, I don--I gotta get some water. DONAHUE: Sure. JOHN ROSENBERG: I guess it&#039 ; s--Isaiah says, &quot ; Justice, justice shall you pursue.&quot ; So it sort of all fits together, I think. Uh, Jean reminds me of tikku-tikkun olam, of repairing the world. But--and I think all of that is part of Judaism. I mean, I&#039 ; m not sure if I answered the question. I think that--uh, I don&#039 ; t spend my time thinking that, as I&#039 ; m doing certain things in the low-income community or working on various projects, that I&#039 ; m doing this because I&#039 ; m Jewish, uh, or because there&#039 ; s some commandment or something, that I need to be doing this. I mean, I think we do the best we can. And, uh, uh, when today is over, we will go today to Huntington, t--we belong to a serv--uh, a congregation in Huntington, West Virginia, now, because there are no congregations, really, left in eastern Kentucky, uh, which we can talk about some more, if you want to. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And just closed down a congregation, a couple o&#039 ; years ago, in Williamson, West Virginia. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: I guess there really, uh, even--there may not--there weren&#039 ; t any, uh--there weren&#039 ; t any congregations after they closed the one in Ashland. But, uh, I&#039 ; m--uh, uh, being able to go to that congregation and sit together and listen and reread the prayers and, uh, uh--sort of brings back the--that theme to your--to my consciousness, in terms of what is important to me. And that&#039 ; s one of the things that&#039 ; s important to me. Uh, we don&#039 ; t go to Huntington very often, these days. (clears his throat) We do have Friday night services at home, that we carry that tradition forward. Jean lights the candles. We often call our daughter and she&#039 ; s with us on the telephone, the way my mother used to be on the telephone with us, when she was elsewhere, when we lit the candles DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, did the Kaddish. And it&#039 ; s an abbreviated sort of service. Uh, but it&#039 ; s the kind of thing you keep going. You keep a tradition going. And, and that&#039 ; s been, uh, important for us. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --but--uh, but, again, you know, uh, you live your life the best way that you can. And it may not involve being able to go to services every Friday--or how strong one has to fee--feels. I&#039 ; m sure there are people who would drive every week, to go to services. We try not to drive at night very much anymore, if we can avoid it. But DONAHUE: --how long does it take you to get to services in Huntington? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, from Prestonsburg, it&#039 ; s about an hour and a half, maybe an hour and 40 minutes. So. I mea--it&#039 ; s not a--beyond the pale. When you live in eastern Kentucky, all, uh--and comin&#039 ; up here is two hours--right--to Lexington. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: So we drive a lot. You drive a lot. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: But, uh--now, you know. And some families would not consider living somewhere where you didn&#039 ; t h--where they weren&#039 ; t close to a congregation, that they couldn&#039 ; t join and be members of and have their kids go to Sunday school and be part of a congregation. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: So that&#039 ; s just a life choice about where you feel you can do what you want to, what, what you hope is gonna be helpful to others. DONAHUE: Yeah. So this is a--this is a big leap but, since we&#039 ; re focusing, in this project, on Jewish communities in Kentucky, uh, I want to ask about your decision to move to Kentucky, in 1970. And that&#039 ; s skipping over some amazing stories, uh, of--and, and experiences of yours with being, uh, in the military and serving in the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, uh, and working on the V Voting Rights Act. And maybe, if we have time, we can go back into that later. But in the--since we don&#039 ; t have a huge amount of time today, uh, can you just--can you jump into describing what brought you to Kentucky? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, you know, when we were in the Civil Rights Division, as--uh, uh, at a point when the Nixon administration, we felt, was starting to back off on school desegregation cases--and, uh, we--I think I--uh, we jointly thought it was time to do something different. And, uh, it was just sort of a fortuity, in a way. I had interviewed some law firms in DC. And we weren&#039 ; t really sure what we wanted to, to do. Or I don&#039 ; t know if we were even sure we were gonna leave. We, uh, thought this was not gonna be a good thing, that the D--administration was going the wrong direction. And so we went on this big camping trip, uh, along the Northeast to--through the Canadian parks. And while we were away--uh, my friend and our former colleague, Terry Lenzner, at that point, had been the head of the Legal Services office in the Office of Economic Opportunity. And he contacted us and said that the--Paul Kaufman--that the, the Appalachian Research and Defense Fund--that he thought it would be interesting, that I might, uh, enjoy going down to talk to them about this public interest law firm that had just started in West Virginia and, and, uh, the work in Appalachia that was--uh, that he was trying to do, this fellow Paul Kaufman, who was a lawyer in Charleston and had gotten a small group of other lawyers together and do public interest work, which I knew very little about at the time. And so we were way up in Canada, I think, when he ca--when, when we got in touch with Terry. I had actually--One o&#039 ; the firms had wanted to interview me, tha--in DC, right after we were, uh, up there. And we decided we didn&#039 ; t want to come back home DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --to do that. But--uh, so, uh, we were going to visit my parents in Florida, actually for the Jewish High Holidays, for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, which was coming up. We were up in Quebec or someplace, at that point. We had this long camping trip we&#039 ; d been on. And, uh, so we looked at the map and said, &quot ; Well, that sounds like a worthwhile thing to do.&quot ; And, uh, we&#039 ; d find out what it&#039 ; s all about. So we, we were--we stopped in Charleston and talked with Paul and some o&#039 ; the other, uh, members of that law firm, and, uh, learned about some o&#039 ; the legal issues that were involved, that was--or what people were wrestling with there and here, involving mineral rights and black lung and, uh, where--uh, welfare issues and that sorta thing. And so the--they suggested the--from there--at the time, the--there was--there were a group of lawyers here, called Mountain People&#039 ; s Rights, that had done some work with the Welfare Rights Organization. And there was a lawyer named Howard Thorkelson, who had been here, who was in charge of that group. And it turned out that the--both the Charleston group and the--this group in eastern Kentucky were having financial problems. And they had been in touch with Terry Lenzner in OEO about getting a federal grant, that would help both of them, the groups, uh, restore their financial stability, so they could continue with their work. And the funding would be run through West Virginia. And, uh, there wasn&#039 ; t--they were not particularly friendly to--uh, I mean, the, the, the lawyers in Charleston were more interested in doing large litigation, whereas the folks in eastern Kentucky were going--helping with some organizing work and, uh, whatever. But so we, we decided we would say, &quot ; Sure. We&#039 ; ll go down and talk t--in eastern Kentucky and we&#039 ; ll ta--see what&#039 ; s goin&#039 ; on.&quot ; So we drove our little Peugeot down to Prestonsburg and went to Jenny Wiley state park, in September, on the way to Florida, set up our tent. And Jean said, &quot ; Go out there and see. I think there are some bears out here.&quot ; But there weren&#039 ; t any real bears. But we--the--it was already getting cool and were--there weren&#039 ; t any other campers around. And we met the lawyers, uh, there and, uh, learned about the things they were working on, and then went down to Whitesburg and talked to Harry Caudill and our friend, uh, Joe Begley, in Blackey, and learned about broad-form deed and learned about the problems of, uh, mineral--the issues of the dee--of that mineral deed and problems in strip-mining and people who were not able to get representation, who didn&#039 ; t want their land strip-mined and the things that welfare issues were working on. And people were--the hospitals were turning away some women who didn&#039 ; t have any money, who needed to--who were about--who actually were pregnant, some deliveries. There were some very serious issues to be look--you know, that, that needed some legal resolutions. And so, uh, it all seemed--really seemed pretty interesting, in terms of, uh, being able to address some o&#039 ; the--those questions and then having a law firm and being able to be funded to do that kinda work. And Howard Thorkelson, who I had met, was having--he had some health issues and he was leaving. And so they were really looking for someone to replace him. And, uh, so then we started driving, and on towards Florida and decided this, uh, might be a good thing to do for a couple o&#039 ; years. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, uh--right? And that&#039 ; s f forty-some years ago. Uh DONAHUE: --uh, forty-six? JOHN ROSENBERG: So really that was--I mean--and so, when we came, we--uh, the story gets a little more involved. But anyway, tha that&#039 ; s the answer to your question DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --about how we got there. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: And there were just a lot of interesting, challenging legal issues. And there wasn&#039 ; t anybody there, at the time--the private bar was primarily, uh, either representing coal companies or were involved in a lot of day-to-day work and they were not interested in, in--uh, there wasn&#039 ; t anybody around to help--any sort of formal way that low-income people could get help on those issues, particularly. And a lawyer wasn&#039 ; t gonna represent someone who wanted to challenge a strip-mining permit, uh, because it was an expensive thing to do to compl--to fight the local--to go to the local agencies or to have a legal, uh, battle with the coal company. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Just wasn&#039 ; t going to be--uh, it wasn&#039 ; t gonna happen--unless we--there was a--uh, public finding to do that sort of thing, or somebody else. DONAHUE: And you were greeted with hostility, from some of the local lawyers in the community, who felt threatened by you, for a number of reasons. Uh, and I wanted to read a quote. So you were profiled in a 1977 article in the New York Times Magazine, uh, that was titled, &quot ; What&#039 ; s a Nice Jewish Lawyer Like John Rosenberg Doing in Appalachia?&quot ; And, uh, you s said in that article--you were quoted as saying--uh, it was--there was a d description about how you were greeted with hostility but that you won people over through your commitment to the--to the place and its people. And you said, &quot ; This is my home. That&#039 ; s what this thing is all about. You may have to take on city officials or the coal industry but you&#039 ; re doing it to make a better place to live.&quot ; Uh, would you describe your--uh, the process of committing to making this place your home, how it was that, despite that, that hostility that you encountered and how, how, you know, the--for foreign the culture was, in many ways, that you could--what was it that made it feel--that made you feel so committed to it? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I do--uh, ag--I think, again, it&#039 ; s a hard thing to answer. I mean, at some point--and I think, a lot of times, it&#039 ; s, in this case, when your kids start going to school. I mean, I think the legal issues--uh, I think, you know, initially, when you represent these folks in court, uh, like any other lawyer, you--what, what you want to do is do the best job you can for them. And I&#039 ; ve always said what I wanted to do was have a first-class law firm for low-income people, so they could be toe-to-toe with other organiz--with folks who paid lawyers and who have good representation. An and, uh, that&#039 ; s what we wanted to do. So--uh, and, uh, your value system is probably most--for the most part, except in some family situations, pretty much together with these clients. They don&#039 ; t want--you don&#039 ; t want to see this land strip-mined, under those circumstances. Or, uh, you want this coalminer to have, uh, safe conditions to work under. And you don&#039 ; t want to have dusty mines. And you want consumers to be treated fairly. And so those are all, uh, you know, objectives that you&#039 ; re together with, as a lawyer. And so I think the clients were--are always--we had a very good relationship with our clients. And so, uh, you know, that&#039 ; s sorta the professional side of it. At what point it becomes, uh, uh--and I think p people, over time, became appreciative of that. There was the hostility, initially. And there&#039 ; s always gonna be some of that. But, uh, primarily, a lotta that hostility is &#039 ; cause they thought, uh, they were gonna--lawyers were gonna lose business. Eventually, they--pretty soon, they figured out that, if we sued somebody, they had a client that they were gonna represent, who was gonna pay them. And so it wasn&#039 ; t that much. But, but low-income people really didn&#039 ; t have very good representa--you weren&#039 ; t--you know, there wa--it was a myth that lawyers were willing to do this free representation, outta the goodness of their hearts, because somebody&#039 ; s gonna bring &#039 ; em a basket of corn, at the--when the corn comes, or gonna pay &#039 ; em with vegetables. There was some o&#039 ; that. Uh, somebody write a, a will, because--And they&#039 ; d bring &#039 ; em a--You know, they were--uh, sort of more of a friendly basis. B--I think, when the kids started in school and you have--Because we weren&#039 ; t that close to the church commu--uh, the faith communities. Now when Jean started working on Meals on Wheels, which wasn&#039 ; t too long after we were there, and started delivering meals to people and becoming more--and as she started teaching childbirth classes and as she become more involved in the community, in a number of ways, or if I was representing a community in a mining case or got to--where Eula and I started working together--Eula Hall--on healthcare issues, you get to know people a little more. But especially when we--the kids started in school and you become, uh, friends and working with other parents, who then see that you want the same thing for your child that they want for their children and that you&#039 ; re not just some strange outsider and that you&#039 ; re not there to try to solve their problems but you&#039 ; re really one of them, looking to do the same thing, and you want this--the community that you&#039 ; re in to be a better community--uh, then, uh, you realize you&#039 ; re sort of all in it together. And is--does it ever--you know, I mean, the area where we are has this very strong, rich history of generations of people who were before us. And so, in a way, it has become home for many people. Uh, I mean, I don&#039 ; t know. We&#039 ; ve talked about this periodically, are we eastern Kentucky or are you Appalachians, are we outs--are we--is it--it can be a home but we may not be--uh, we certainly don&#039 ; t have three generations, going back, of people who grew up in the mountains. Uh, but, uh, I do think, uh, in that sense, uh, that, after a while, in some unconscious way, it becomes home. I don&#039 ; t know that it&#039 ; s--uh, it&#039 ; s anything, you know--I think that first you&#039 ; re there professionally. And that&#039 ; s why I think, when we were there professionally, you thought, &quot ; Well, we&#039 ; ll be here for two or three years. We don&#039 ; t know exactly where we&#039 ; re gonna lay, in two or three years. But this seems like a goo--uh, a way to be helpful and that starting a law firm here would be a really good thing to do. Uh, there&#039 ; s a real need for that.&quot ; We&#039 ; re not necessarily comin&#039 ; in on a white horse to change everything but there&#039 ; s a need here and we th--I think it&#039 ; s--it was an opportunity to get something started, that would help people in a major way. And then, uh--uh, you know, and then it, it just kinda goes from there. So what&#039 ; s a nice Jewish lawyer doing in Appalachia? Uh--(laughs)--you know, still tryin&#039 ; to--he&#039 ; s still doing that! (Donahue laughs) Uh, s--headline hasn&#039 ; t changed. Right. Right? Oh. I&#039 ; m looking over at Jean. JEAN ROSENBERG: Uh DONAHUE: --Jean. (laughs) Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Do--is that an answer? DONAHUE: Yeah! JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah. DONAHUE: Uh, so there wasn&#039 ; t a particular point at which you can put your--that you can put your finger on, when you said, &quot ; Okay. Uh, this is home.&quot ; It was a--it was more of a process. JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah. JEAN ROSENBERG: Yeah. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: I think so. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah, I think so. I always tell people, &quot ; We can&#039 ; t leave, because the garage is so full o&#039 ; stuff. I don&#039 ; t know that we could ever clean out our garage--even if &quot ; (Donahue laughs) When somebody says, &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t you move a little closer to your children? &#039 ; Cause you&#039 ; re getting on in years. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: But, uh--And I said, &quot ; Well, we can&#039 ; t get the garage cleaned out.&quot ; (Donahue laughs) I don&#039 ; t know if that has anything to do with it or not. Uh, no. But I think that&#039 ; s right. DONAHUE: So you have two children, Michael and Annie. Right? And, uh, where are they now? JOHN ROSENBERG: Michael&#039 ; s in northern Kentucky, in--uh, they live in Newpor--he and his wife live in Newport. And she teaches, for the--at the University of Cincinnati. She&#039 ; s a criminologist. And Michael, uh, is looking for new opportunities, since the budget cuts-- DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --have eliminated the most recent job he had, which was, uh, as a tra--uh, being in charge of transfers students at, uh--at, uh, Gateway Community College-- DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --which is the community college up there in northern Kentucky where he&#039 ; d worked at five, uh--almost five years. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --so he&#039 ; s looking at other opportunities. Annie&#039 ; s in--uh, they li--uh, Annie and her husband Steve live in s--in--outside of Corydon, Indiana, in southern Indiana. But she--and she works in Louisville. She&#039 ; s a social worker, who got her master&#039 ; s at the University o&#039 ; Kentucky. Now, she was, uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --n JOHN ROSENBERG: --finished at the--I mean, U-- master, University of Louisville. Uh, she, uh, went to The David School. Which, I did a lotta, uh, work in the David community. I think we spoke about it in the original article. DONAHUE: Yeah. So this is a small town that&#039 ; s right near Prestonsburg, that was owned by a coal company and then, uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --former coal camp-- DONAHUE: --you--or--uh, hel--you were part of a group that helped purchase the town at-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. We did a lotta the legal work involved-- DONAHUE: --s--found a school JOHN ROSENBERG: --so the community, basically, would--formed--we formed a Community Development Corporation, so that the community members, who were board members--the, uh, corporation purchased the town, the surface rights, the houses, from ridge to ridge, and with the idea of selling the homes back to people who lived there, who were renting from an in-town group of businesspeople. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and then, uh, during the thirties and forties, it was a model coal camp--had the only swimming pool. People from Prestonsburg used to go out on the train, to go swimming there. And, uh, it was really--uh, there was a school. There was even a small airstrip. And then, when the mine closed, in the early forties, and sort of just things stopped. And, uh, a group of businesspeople bought the, the surface rights, uh, to the town. And they rented out the--those homes to the people who lived there. And then a Catholic mission, a group called Brothers of Charity, came and, uh, started teaching some Bible school and helping local families with issues, poverty. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and they approached me about trying to--whe whether the community might be able to figure out how to purchase the town and, uh, get it away from these business folks and see about developing a community further. And so it took quite a while. I mean, we needed to upgrade the water system and go to the Public Service Commission. There was a lotta legal work involved. And then, when we finally got it done, we were able to--the corporation built some new homes there. And, uh--and The David School sort of grew, uh, side-by-side. The school first was in--uh, in the--there was a company store there, the last company store. And the fellow who--uh, uh, while the company store was still there, the guy who ran it was named Tiller, and read the Wall Street Journal every day. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --but he had this--It was still stocked with--It&#039 ; s where people, locally, bought stuff. And it was the company store. And they finally closed it. I was trying to remember the name o&#039 ; the mining group that was there, that had kept the store open. But then they transferred him. And so a fella named Danny Greene, who had come from New York, had gotten some volunteers, uh, and he, uh, got some funding and he bought the store and some other buildings, uh, that we di--uh, actually, about the same time, and he converted that sch--that store into a school. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and then, over the years, the s--that s--uh, big building fell into disrepair. And when Annie was there--uh, Annie went there for the last--uh, she wasn&#039 ; t doing very well in our high school. Although Michael, our son, was pretty gifted academically. (clears his throat) Her--Annie had a more difficult time in public schools. And so eventually she went to The David School, uh, which was really focused on lotta one-on-one education. Was a small school, for kids who were not doing well in public school, some from broken homes. And, uh, so there were volunteers, some--and some Catholic volunteers and some nuns, that Danny Greene and, uh--had brought in. And they started a GED program. And it&#039 ; s a--it&#039 ; s a nice, long story on its own. And, uh, it really helped her pick up her academic, uh, work. And then she ended up in, uh--going to community college, went to Morehead. And then she went to--got her--uh, was able to, uh, get her m--uh, aca--or, uh, degree from Morehead and then got a master&#039 ; s from the Kent School. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and she&#039 ; s a so--does social work now, in Louisville. DONAHUE: Um-hm. (John coughs) Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, uh DONAHUE: --how did you and Jean negotiate? So you talked about how you have--you worked out, uh, going sometimes to someone&#039 ; s home for a Quaker service and sometimes to, uh, when it existed, the services in Williamson, West Virginia, at the synagogue. JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, we, we s DONAHUE: --how did you neg--how&#039 ; d you work that out-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --we started with our--we started with our wedding, when we had a--at a Quaker meeting, with a rabbi. DONAHUE: Okay. (laughter) JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, were not easy to find, at the time. But, uh--And it sort of carried on from there. And so, for--at one point--I may have mentioned this in the book--we had--we would, uh, to Williamson--well, we first went to Ashland, Kentucky. DONAHUE: Okay. JOHN ROSENBERG: And they had one o&#039 ; the first women rabbis. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and the kids were small. And we&#039 ; d go up to Ashland for services. I guess initially we went to Lexington, uh, and came up here for a while. It&#039 ; s a little further. Then we heard about A--then we went to Ashland. DONAHUE: So--sorry--would you come to the synagogue or the temple, here in Lexington? JOHN ROSENBERG: To the, the Reform congregation. DONAHUE: Okay. Adath Israel. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, uh, which, uh-- DONAHUE: --Temple Ada--Temple Adath Israel. JOHN ROSENBERG: Adas--Ad(??)--right. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --the guy was nor--and Leffler was his name, back then. DONAHUE: Okay. Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: B became a stockbroker. Yeah. We came up here DONAHUE: --and would, would you come once a month, uh, back then, or just-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, for holidays. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I don&#039 ; t know how long that we came to Adas Israel that often, uh, periodically, just for the holidays. And then we started goin&#039 ; to Ashland. And then Ashland closed. There was a synagogue in Portsmouth. But the Ashland congregation, most of them went over to Huntington, which at that time had a Reform congregation and an Orthodox congregation. Uh, but, about the same time, I think we learned about the congregation in Williamson, West Virginia, which we, for some reason, hadn&#039 ; t heard about--until we met a family--the Williamson--there was a Jewish family in Pikeville, named Yarris (??). And, uh, one of the Yarris daughters--uh, the Yarris kids, uh--let&#039 ; s see--Marion--uh, anyway, one of the Yarrises, the daughter-in-law, w--later, uh, started--Jean taught them how to--uh, Jean--uh, they worked with Jean in childbirth education. Anyway, that family was going to Williamson. And so we started going to Williamson. It was a--just still a pretty good little drive, before they got the four-lane finished. It was about an hour and a half. And the congregation had a pretty rich history of, uh, having been in the coalfields for seventy-five years or so and was a large--there were probably seventy-five Jewish families there, in nineteen--in the thirties and forties. But by the time we started there, probably in the nineties, maybe--yeah--or the early 2000s, somewhere in there, it w--the congregation was already quite small. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --there were only several families left, who, uh--uh, is a beautif--very nice synagogue. But it was a ver--at that point--during the w--during the year other than for High Holidays, it was not a very--it was really quite small. DONAHUE: Mm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And on the holidays, on High Holidays, some o&#039 ; those families&#039 ; members, the sons and daughters, some grandkids, would show up and, uh, would swell the congregation. And, uh, that lasted until, by now, probably ten years ago--how long we going to Huntington, eight or nine----somewhere--when we had to g--uh, it just dwindled down to very few people. And, uh, so the--uh, it was necessary to close it, uh, close that congregation. And the--uh, uh, the pews and most of the inside went to a new congregation in Pittsburgh. And they had hoped to donate the building to folks in Williamson. But we started--then we started going to Huntington. And by that time, the Huntington congregation--the, the Reform and Orthodox congregations had merged, to create a Conservative DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --congregation, uh, and, uh, there. Uh, and that&#039 ; s where we&#039 ; ve been going. And it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s a very nice--I it&#039 ; s not huge. But they have several f--we have some people who go to--Marshall University is there. And some members o&#039 ; the congregation have been there a long time. Uh, and, uh, I think it&#039 ; s a struggle for them, uh, financially. I mean, it&#039 ; s--they&#039 ; ve got their head k--It&#039 ; s a beautiful old synagogue, a beautiful building. They actually have just--uh, they&#039 ; ve just leased--or, uh, signed an agreement to let one of the church groups, that I guess has gotten big enough to build a--uh, to get a building--and a local, I think, Presbyterian--I&#039 ; m not sure--a local Presbyterian group is going to use the synagogue when, when the, uh, temple, uh, uh, is not using it for services. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: But that will give them some extra income. But it was quite a discussion, I guess DONAHUE: --hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --before they agreed to do it. But we--but the answer&#039 ; s--but we&#039 ; ve been going there. And, uh, uh, you know, years ago, we had a couple of other f--Quaker families in eastern Kentucky. And we met in their home--uh, Hazard or Pikeville. JEAN ROSENBERG: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --but Pikeville wasn&#039 ; t a Quaker family. Uh, anyway, we moved around a couple times. And as I said in the book, you know, your Quaker service can be a silent meeting for worship. You can have three or four or forty people. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And so we, we, we primarily go to the synagogue, when we sh--when we are--uh, for various religious occasions. Or we--we&#039 ; ve been to Israel with the group from Huntington, or some o&#039 ; the people from Huntington. And, uh--uh, but we, uh--uh, we&#039 ; re aware of the Quaker world DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --I think is a good way to put it. So we&#039 ; re sorta where we were when we got married. DONAHUE: Yeah. Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, that&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; ve done-- DONAHUE: --yeah JOHN ROSENBERG: --all the way through. Uh, the kids--I think I spent more time with Michael, probably, as he was growing up, in terms of being Jewish. And I think--I think, if you ask him, he would say he was Jewish. I think J--Annie would say she&#039 ; s a spiritual person, which, she is very spiritual. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And--but she has not been--uh, doesn&#039 ; t generally go to--well, neither one of them, normally--I mean, uh, would normally go to services at a synagogue. Uh, Michael and Pam have joined us for High Holidays. And Annie&#039 ; s been with us. I mea--they&#039 ; ve all been with us, at various times. And they usually--we&#039 ; ve done Passover together--and with, uh, friends, uh, locally as well. DONAHUE: Is, uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --s DONAHUE: --does it matter to you, if they maintain a, a Jewish tradition in their own lives? JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, n uh, well, I think they have to live their own lives, I mean, wherever they--they&#039 ; re adults. Where-wherever their spiritual lives carry them is going to be what would--what they do. I think I would like them to know, I suppose, that they have this Jewish tradition. But I think they&#039 ; re very aware o&#039 ; the fact that it&#039 ; s a great part of my history. And, uh, if they can remember that, whatever they do, I think that&#039 ; s good enough for me. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, they have to choose. I think they&#039 ; re both quite spiritual, in many ways. Although our daughter, I think, has spent more time thinking about the spiritual life--and, uh, since she--especially since she had a cancer episode a few years ago. But she&#039 ; s now happily out of--for now. DONAHUE: Uh, that&#039 ; s good. Uh, so did-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --but the Jewish thing in eastern Kentucky--and, uh, I haven&#039 ; t read the whole thing. There&#039 ; s a book called Coalfield Jews DONAHUE: --uh-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --which is sort of a history of these congregations DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, Logan and Williamson. There were two or three, uh, larger congregations, in the thirties and forties, in West Virginia, and, uh, that have just, you know, dwindled over the years, as the younger generation moved out. Uh, but it&#039 ; s interesting to think about. DONAHUE: You mentioned spending some time with Michael, uh, teaching. Were you teaching him about Jewish history? JOHN ROSENBERG: It was sorta homeschooling-- DONAHUE: --okay. (laughs) JOHN ROSENBERG: --sorta home DONAHUE: --how did you go about that? JOHN ROSENBERG: Huh? DONAHUE: How did you go about that? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, uh, Sunday mornings, uh, generally, I think, was the best time, when we would read a little from Jewish--a Sunday school boo th--we have a collection of some o&#039 ; those books. Or if we went--I know, when you went visiting--Jean&#039 ; s family in Philadelphia, we stopped by the temple there, and one of the synagogues. And they had some books that they weren&#039 ; t gonna keep. Or we would get some, uh, books. Or we bought--So we have--uh, so, uh, I would go over--you know, we&#039 ; d read some stories about--biblical stories. And--uh, and it--and we--the kids, at Purim, uh, uh, would roleplay, uh, and dress up as Queen Esther. And we would do--have little skits like that or--you know, we--and same, uh--a and continue Passover. But I spent more time at it with Michael than I did with Annie. And maybe she was not quite as willing. But we had, you know, uh--uh, and probably as much my fault as--or, uh, whatever. I&#039 ; m not sure what happened, whether I became, uh, less, uh, interested in continuing that--or letting them--letting us go our own way and figuring it out as we ca--as we went. Uh DONAHUE: --would they go to services with you, when you went? JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah--when we went to Williamson, while they were younger DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --when we went to Williamson--or if they did. Yeah. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --Jean always tells a story that, when Annie was little and we were in Ashland, she would-wou--Annie would go upstairs, w--in the choir loft and line up her stuffed animals across the top. (Donahue laughs) S--when we looked back, you could see her upstairs with her s--But they would--yeah--they went with us, and, uh, while, uh--uh, generally, when--until--uh, when Michael started driving, as he was in high school the last couple of years, I don&#039 ; t think--he didn&#039 ; t come up with us as regularly anymore. I mean, that&#039 ; s, uh, what happens so often, I think, after--Jewish students, after they become bar mitzvah--especially in smaller towns, where, unf--where Friday nights compete--where services compete with ballgames and-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --school activities. So it&#039 ; s DONAHUE: --so was--did he have a bar mitzvah? JOHN ROSENBERG: Did Michael have a bar mitzvah? He di--Michael did not have a bar mitzvah. Had to look to Jean. He--no, he didn&#039 ; t. I guess he can still do it. There are actually adults--people DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --there are adults who have bar mitzvahs, later on. In fact, I think my sister DONAHUE: --and Annie didn&#039 ; t JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, my sister? No DONAHUE: --didn&#039 ; t do the JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh DONAHUE: --bas mitzvah thing. JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, she has--uh, she didn&#039 ; t formally join a congregation DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --of any sort. We went a few times to the--we went, a couple o&#039 ; times, to the Unitarians here DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --years ago. But, uh DONAHUE: --was it challenging at all to, to raise children in a small, predominantly Christian town and have them not be, uh, strongly identified with one particular religion? JOHN ROSENBERG: Is it challenging? I don&#039 ; t know that we gave a lot of thought to it. But now, Annie probably went to Bible school a few times, in the summer, with some of her friends. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I don&#039 ; t know if Michael really did or not. Uh, but y--uh, Jean says no. Prob--I don&#039 ; t think he did. Uh, I think Annie was more social, in many ways, locally, uh, spent time with kids who didn&#039 ; t have any m--anything and some folks who had money, uh DONAHUE: --uh, uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --much more of an accent--I think Michael, uh, being pretty intellectual an and gifted academically, uh, would say that he wasn&#039 ; t--uh, I don&#039 ; t know that he was ever--that h--he doesn&#039 ; t remember having very many close friends. I think he--uh, when he started, uh, keeping--back then, when computers were new, he started keeping scores for the basketball team, and the coach. That, that sorta helped him a little, socially. But I think he always felt a little bit on the out--as a little nerdy kid, which isn&#039 ; t very easy in our area, because it&#039 ; s so--people are so, uh, into athletics, football, basketball. And, uh, he was there during the beginning of academic teams. And that really was a great salvation for him DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and some of these other activities. Whereas--so he always felt, I think, especially, looking back, more on the outs. I mean, he was--he had some friends. He had some friends--uh, from our perspective. But he--uh, his memories are not as--probably as happy, about growing up. It was difficult. I know we mentioned in the book that when, uh, one of, uh--he--one o&#039 ; the teachers asked him to explain Hanukkah, one year, or--and when he did, some kids teased him or even--I think one o&#039 ; the teachers had a bad reaction. Uh, Annie, uh, I don&#039 ; t know that she ever had to do that or would have done it. But h--she just, uh, I think, always, uh, uh, felt a lot more comfortable with whatever the social situation was. DONAHUE: How, how did you deal with that, when Michael told you that he had had that experience with other kids, uh? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I don&#039 ; t know if we took on the teacher. I don&#039 ; t remember, uh--I mean he had other experiences. Jean may have--did you talk to him--uh, Jean, talk to the teacher? D&#039 ; you talk to the teacher or the principal? JEAN ROSENBERG: The teacher. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, and I--I mean, there were other situations with Michael DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --just as difficult DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --he didn--if he didn&#039 ; t draw inside the lines on a coloring book or something. Some o&#039 ; the teachers ha had, back--especially back then, I think, there was, uh, the idea--the--(coughs) We&#039 ; ve learned a lot about education, in the last few years. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, that--uh, how do you deal with those situations? I think you just--(coughs)--you do the best you can. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: I mean, I don&#039 ; t know. Do you want to ask Jean--because--(Donahue laughs)--how she (coughs)-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --but, uh, I don&#039 ; t--excuse me, uh--(clears his throat)--I don&#039 ; t dwell very long on things that don&#039 ; t go well. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --you just kind of--kinda get past &#039 ; em. And, uh--(clears his throat)--I mean, we&#039 ; ve had situations. The local Muslim emir? Is that what he&#039 ; s--my doctor, my surgeon. What was, uh--what d--what&#039 ; s he c--what do you call the-- JEAN ROSENBERG: Imam. (John coughs) DONAHUE: Let&#039 ; s call JEAN ROSENBERG: --ima DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --has gone to services with me JEAN ROSENBERG: --ima. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh--I don&#039 ; t know (??). I was (??) thinking back about that situation with Michael. I can&#039 ; t even--Jean could tell you what she talked--what she DONAHUE: Can we pause for one sec? [Pause in recording] DONAHUE: Is just seems appropriate, since you were involved in JEAN ROSENBERG: --yeah DONAHUE: --all these decisions, for you to be JEAN ROSENBERG: --part o&#039 ; the DONAHUE: --uh, and, uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I&#039 ; d love it, if she&#039 ; s DONAHUE: --okay. JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah, I think it&#039 ; s great. DONAHUE: (laughter) Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Or DONAHUE: --so welcome, Jean. JEAN ROSENBERG: Thank you. DONAHUE: And do you have anything to add, as you listen to this conversation, about how t--how to approach the, the education of your children, as far as, uh, giving them some background in Judaism and some background in Quakerism? JEAN ROSENBERG: Quakerism. DONAHUE: And also I know, from the prior interview, that you got very involved in studying Judaism. And John said that you knew more about Judaism, in some ways JEAN ROSENBERG: --oh DONAHUE: --than he did. JEAN ROSENBERG: That&#039 ; s not true. (Donahue laughs) That&#039 ; s not true. JOHN ROSENBERG: It&#039 ; s no-- JEAN ROSENBERG: --but I think, when you&#039 ; re new to something, you&#039 ; re, you&#039 ; re listening at a different level. And, uh, uh, it always appealed to me that there&#039 ; s a big emphasis on, uh, healing the world and on giving, on tzedakah. And I always thought that that resonated very strongly with what I had been taught as a Quaker, k--growing up in, uh, that tradition. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JEAN ROSENBERG: So, uh, uh, it wasn&#039 ; t a conflict. It was more--he had more rituals and we had more, uh, uh, searching, uh, responsibility for the service. It&#039 ; s just a, a different approach. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JEAN ROSENBERG: So. JOHN ROSENBERG: So how do you remember the thing with Michael, when you talked to the teacher? JEAN ROSENBERG: Well, I just went in to her and I said, you know, &quot ; This was, uh--this, this was, uh--this is what he told me, that you, you laughed at, uh--you let the kids laugh at him. And I felt that that was inappropriate, that &quot ; And, you know, she listened to me and--we didn&#039 ; t come to any great meeting of the ways. (laughs) Sh--you know, she wa--uh, Michael was very, very, uh, smart. And that was threatening to many teachers. They--uh, he would--he would be able to participate at a level that they were not ready to handle. DONAHUE: Uh--but she had asked him to talk about Hanukkah. JEAN ROSENBERG: Yes. She had a--sh DONAHUE: --is that r-- JEAN ROSENBERG: --I think--no, I think--actually, I think he volunteered. He wanted to share. DONAHUE: Okay. JEAN ROSENBERG: And, uh, in--as part of sharing it, he also, uh, sang a Hebrew song an--And, uh--and, uh, she commented that it sounded like baby talk to her-- DONAHUE: --uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --during the class. And that really hurt his feelings. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JEAN ROSENBERG: So. You know, that was just her limited exposure. And, uh DONAHUE: --uh-hm. JEAN ROSENBERG: But I was up at the school all the time, volunteering and helping with things. So people knew tha that, uh, I was ver--you know, I was a--uh, an active participant in, in, uh, education. So. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --it wasn&#039 ; t unusual for me to be--(laughter)--you know, them dealing with me. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: But she was president o&#039 ; the PTA--when you--also. JEAN ROSENBERG: Uh, yeah, right. JOHN ROSENBERG: (clears his throat) Yeah. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: I mean, we--right. DONAHUE: What about Christmas? Was that challenging? Did--how did you--did you celebrate Christmas? JEAN ROSENBERG: Always. DONAHUE: Uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --but in a very--Quakers don&#039 ; t--uh, celebrations aren&#039 ; t really--aren&#039 ; t really a focus. Uh, you know, it&#039 ; s a reminder. Uh, you don&#039 ; t have a--the intense, uh, Christmas rituals that other religion--uh, other Protestant religions do. It was a, a pretty easy time of, of, uh--when I was growing up. An and in our home, it was just a very, uh, loving and giving time. DONAHUE: Uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --but we never went through the myth of Santa Claus or that kinda thing. It was--uh, you know, we told the stories, because they were part o&#039 ; the tradition. But it was never ex--never expected you to--my k--certainly, my kids never expected Santa. They always knew that, uh, we were buying in the name of Santa, for each other-- DONAHUE: --um-hm JEAN ROSENBERG: --and that kinda thing. You know, uh DONAHUE: --did you have JOHN ROSENBERG: --but for many years, w DONAHUE: --a Christmas tree? Sorry. JEAN ROSENBERG: Yeah--oh, yeah. DONAHUE: Yeah. JEAN ROSENBERG: We had a tr--and we had hand--you know, the ornaments that came from both sides of my family. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And a Magen David, uh, on top. JEAN ROSENBERG: Oh, then a Mogen David on top. (laughs) Right. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, silver. But we--for many years, we went, uh, almost annually, for Christmas, to see Jean&#039 ; s family, in Philadelphia. So we celebrated Christmas, uh, in their Quaker tradition, which she&#039 ; s just described. JEAN ROSENBERG: Which is a silent meeting for worship. I mean, it&#039 ; s JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. And, uh, uh, the songs. And, uh, Michael, uh, remembers--I don&#039 ; t know--uh, very well. I mean, they&#039 ; d had--in the--Christmas Eve, everything was ca--uh, in the Meeting House, people sang carols. And they had choi--a s--they had a silent meeting for worship. And, uh--but then Christmas morning was a big deal. Jean&#039 ; s father would stay up during the night, making some engineering project--(Jean laughs)--a dollhouse or some other big deal for the kids, uh. But we went up--we would drive up and then we would invariably drive back a few days later and--uh, in the VW bus, with the kids, uh, in the back, under our--(laughs)--under a blanket, in a cold VW bus, driving back to eastern Kentucky. But that&#039 ; s the way we did with--for Christmas. And, you know, the competing holiday, which is Hanukkah, usually, is cl is the Jewish holiday, which is close to Christmas. And--but it&#039 ; s--uh, it&#039 ; s--uh, you know, it doesn&#039 ; t have--uh, I mean, it&#039 ; s a different theme--but doesn&#039 ; t have all the commercialism around it that Christmas did. But we would do both. And we would light the candles, at home, when the kids--a different candle every night, keep adding one. And so we would have--we would go through both holidays. We always, uh, uh, uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --and we had different themes for the--different lighting--uh, different candles, you know. Sometimes we would give gifts and sometimes we would take food, uh. It was just different-- DONAHUE: --uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --up, depending on DONAHUE: --was it a challenge for either of your parents, to accept, uh, this interfaith marriage? JEAN ROSENBERG: I think it was for John&#039 ; s father. JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah. JEAN ROSENBERG: I think he was--uh, he--It would, uh--he woulda preferred John to marry a nice Jewish girl. (John laughs) DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: So he got a nice Jaker girl. (laughter) He--Well, I think JEAN ROSENBERG: --Jewish-Quaker JOHN ROSENBERG: --I think that he--you know, I think they, uh, loved Jean and that they a--and that he accepted, uh, the--uh, what we did, uh, the wedding, the marriage, and the children. And that&#039 ; s the way it was. And when we visited them in Florida, we went to services with them, and, uh, maintained the traditions we always had at home. I mean, that&#039 ; s--it was the same way, whether it was Spartanburg or Gastonia or West Palm Beach, where they retired, and Dad was a very, uh--uh, very much involved in that Jewish community. And when he passed away, we had a, a funeral there. The rabbi and the congregation who did the funeral, uh, mentioned, you know, how much he meant to that community, those last years that he was alive in Florida. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, but I don&#039 ; t--and I think Jean&#039 ; s parents were so JEAN ROSENBERG: --they loved you. And it was--it was fine with them. They were grateful that he didn&#039 ; t live in another country. DONAHUE: Uh--(laughter) JOHN ROSENBERG: --w--uh, that I didn&#039 ; t live in another country? JEAN ROSENBERG: No, I mean, you know, what if so--the you know, they JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. But they JEAN ROSENBERG: --they were happy-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, they--when they were with us, they want--uh, we did Friday night services at home. And, uh, with--uh, uh, there was no Quaker meeting nearby. Uh, w--I don&#039 ; t know that we ever went with them to a Quaker meeting. Uh, right? We didn&#039 ; t, uh--I mean--and they were Presbyterians, in New York, before they came to Phi Philadelphia and became--decided to join the Quaker DONAHUE: --um-hm-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, Meeting. But they were--you know, no one could be more tolerant, I don&#039 ; t think. And Jean&#039 ; s father was a very spiritual person, very involved in the meaning of life and afterlife and that sorta thing. So he--there was a--uh, there are always those connections. So we&#039 ; ve--it&#039 ; s never been a real problem. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: I mean, in--unless you&#039 ; re in that branch of Judaism, unless you&#039 ; re worried about--uh, or any other faith--I&#039 ; m sure, Orthodox--where intermarriage is going to mean the end of one or the other, uh DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --somewhere along the way, that, uh, the tradition doesn&#039 ; t continue. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh DONAHUE: --so do you--do you have a sense that the two traditions feed each other or-- JEAN ROSENBERG: --I think so. I mean, I think there&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s a continuum of history. And, uh--and we&#039 ; ve always joked about that-- DONAHUE: --uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --that, uh, Jesus was a nice Jewish boy. (laughter) DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, was a Jewish boy. Yeah. DONAHUE: What about Jewish community, living in a--in a small town in eastern Kentucky? Uh, when you g--when you went to services, were you largely motivated by making connections with other members of Jewish communities in your area? Or, or was it the ritual or-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --oh, I think it was just the tradition and the ritual. I mean, the--(clears his throat)--meeting the other people is a byproduct, I think. Uh, and we--because o&#039 ; the distances, we really--uh, you know, we superfici--we got to know them superficially. We probably--like the trip we took to Israel, uh, where we spent a little more time with some o&#039 ; the congregants, you obviously have a little more opportunity to talk to each other and to--and to be sociable. But because we would come back home after services on a Friday night or even Saturday morning--we might stay over. And we--you meet people like that. So, uh, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s not really for that reason. I mean, I think, if we lived in a larger commu--in a larger city--and it&#039 ; s like joining a church or learning a sig--uh, uh, or being a member of the Jewish synagogue or being a member of a Quaker Meeting. Then you become part of that group. JEAN ROSENBERG: Social fabric. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, right. JEAN ROSENBERG: And we were not there. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And--uh, a and I think that, uh, that, uh, might be something we, uh, will have missed, in our lives. But it&#039 ; s--there are sort of trade-offs. You have to decide, uh, if--what your--want your life to be about. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, uh, certainly it means a great deal to the members of the church--of the faith communities, uh, that are members. I mean--And a lot of that revolves around--a lot of what happens socially, uh, involves, uh, the churches in our area, and, uh--uh, and the synagogues, in the area where you have more--whe where they exist. Uh, I think the congregation in Huntington&#039 ; s pretty vibrant. Certainly the ones here are, as most, uh, large-as most of these congregations are. But, uh, that&#039 ; s--I think that--it, it hasn&#039 ; t been a real motivation of ours. &#039 ; Cause we just don&#039 ; t stay--except for holidays, we, we don&#039 ; t really spend time in those communities. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, do y-- DONAHUE: --are there other Jewish residents of Prestonsburg, tha that you&#039 ; ve gotten to know? JEAN ROSENBERG: There--no, there are not. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, we JEAN ROSENBERG: --there&#039 ; s o--(laughs)--there&#039 ; s, uh, one Jewish woman and her daughter, in the next county. Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --wh who don&#039 ; t live there anymore. JEAN ROSENBERG: Who don&#039 ; t live there JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --uh, who&#039 ; ve moved to Lexington. But JOHN ROSENBERG: --moved, uh DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --last year or two--in the last year. DONAHUE: Miriam? JOHN ROSENBERG: Now we&#039 ; re the JEAN ROSENBERG: --yeah. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: Miriam, right--uh, Sillman (??). DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: So we&#039 ; ve had a couple--you know, a few--very few Jewish lawyers or law students, from time to time, who&#039 ; ve come through. But, uh, uh--uh--an--I mean, that is the way that it is, you know. Uh, s DONAHUE: --you mentioned the Yarris family. JOHN ROSENBERG: Right. DONAHUE: But the--they&#039 ; re, they&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; ve all moved JEAN ROSENBERG: --they&#039 ; ve left, yeah DONAHUE: --out of the area, as well. JOHN ROSENBERG: And they were there many years, I mean, the--And the--there are still some families in Williamson. It&#039 ; s just--and I&#039 ; m not sure--there&#039 ; s a family--there are two or three families in Williamson. It just wasn&#039 ; t enough to keep the congregation going. I think there&#039 ; s some--and of them has a intermarried daughter. Uh, and the president o&#039 ; that congregation, Bill Rosen, moved to Florida. He&#039 ; s in his--close to ninety, I would guess. Right? Uh, who was very involved, uh, with civic organizations and the American Red Cross, when he was--and his son was a circuit judge in Ashland. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Now, my--interestingly, one o&#039 ; my fraternity brothers when I went to Duke, his father was, uh, the mayor of Ashland--was a Jewish family--who was the mayor of Ashland, back in the forties and fifties. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and, uh, there was a family in Hazard. But there&#039 ; ve been very few Jewish families anymore. I don&#039 ; t know there was ever--there was another family--there was Lenny Grand, uh, years ago, another local store owner, who mar--who married a woman from Prestonsburg and lived there for a number of years. But, uh, nope, there just--there just are not DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, any Jews to speak of in eastern Kentucky, that I know of, outside of Ashland. And that congregations dwindling. We actually had a service--the rabbi in--our rabbi in Huntington was interested in trying to bring some more folks from around Ashland, if they lived there, to services. So she had a service in Ashland, about three months ago, and is planning to do another one. And she had it in a Masonic lodge. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, so we&#039 ; ll see. But, uh--but we keep the traditions going. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh, if you&#039 ; re--it&#039 ; s always nice to talk about your book, when we talk to school groups. DONAHUE: Yes. JOHN ROSENBERG: I think they&#039 ; re interested. DONAHUE: Uh, want to hear about your experiences with talking to groups. &#039 ; Cause I know you&#039 ; ve talked--you&#039 ; ve talked about the Holocaust to groups JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah DONAHUE: --you&#039 ; ve talked about Judaism to churches. W and you mentioned that in our earlier interview. But what, uh--what has that experience been like? JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I think--uh, I&#039 ; m glad to do it. Because generally, people ask, you know, about that. And, uh, the students are very interested, I think, now. Most of them have read--in our area, in middle school, read the story of Anne Frank. Uh, and people who&#039 ; ve read your book really appreciate it. Uh, I think having an opportunity to talk about Judaism is, is, uh, a--is worthwhile, just so it helps open up those educational boundaries. I mean, I think--I don&#039 ; t know how many of those kids in eastern Kentucky have ever been to a synagogue or whether they&#039 ; ll ever go to a synagogue or have ever met anybody else who&#039 ; s Jewish. And I think keeping the Holocaust story alive is very, very important. Uh, and I think that, uh, as much as I can contribute to that--I mean, I know, if I made myself more available, I&#039 ; d be doing that a lot more than I do. But I&#039 ; m still pretty busy with other community activities and legal work of one sort or another, that--there&#039 ; s just a limit to how much o&#039 ; that I can do. But it&#039 ; s, you know, the extent that I can do it. But people come up to me, in various, uh, situations, and, uh, would say would I--w--come over and talk to their church group. And I said, &quot ; Sure. Just let me know when you want to do it.&quot ; Uh, but I think it also helps to bridge that gap--I mean, whatever their views are of someone who&#039 ; s Jewish--(laughs) DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --that they&#039 ; ve never met them--or that there&#039 ; s someone living here and we can talk about the traditions and the things we&#039 ; ve talked about today. DONAHUE: Do-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --so I can do that DONAHUE: --yeah JOHN ROSENBERG: --now and then. I&#039 ; m glad to do it. DONAHUE: Do you feel any concern about what happens after you&#039 ; re gone, since there are--there are no--(laughs)--there are no other Jews in the area? JOHN ROSENBERG: No other Jews? DONAHUE: Uh, uh, how do you JOHN ROSENBERG: --oh, I&#039 ; ve, uh DONAHUE: --pass along--(laughter)-- JOHN ROSENBERG: What? Uh, I&#039 ; ve really never thought about that, Arwen. DONAHUE: Uh, okay. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, I mean, I guess that people have had a chance DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --to know who I was. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, and I don&#039 ; t know that many of them really--(coughs)--give a lotta thought to the fact that I&#039 ; m Jewish. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Or maybe they don&#039 ; t even know I&#039 ; m Jewish. I mean, I don&#039 ; t know that they, uh, give any thought--I mean, I think they really associate my name and me with AppalReD and the civic work or the Science Center. Uh DONAHUE: --uh, I should think they, uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --right? JEAN ROSENBERG: I was just laughing because, uh--uh, we just had this forty-fifth reunion for the--AppalReD. Right? DONAHUE: Which is the Appalachian Research JOHN ROSENBERG: --Research, uh¬ DONAHUE: --and Defense Fund. JEAN ROSENBERG: Right--uh, legal services program. And one o&#039 ; the local newspapers came out with a picture, uh, of John on the front page, with Eula Hall. Right? And I went up the Health Department, where I worked for a number of years, and they said, &quot ; We didn&#039 ; t know John started AppalReD.&quot ; (laughs) DONAHUE: Uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --I thought, uh, that&#039 ; s interesting. You know--(Donahue laughs)--can&#039 ; t believe it. Some p--Yeah. You know, so much a part of our family, uh, uh, uh, it&#039 ; s just hard for me to remember that other people don&#039 ; t have that DONAHUE: --yeah JEAN ROSENBERG: --in their frame of reference. DONAHUE: Yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, well, started. But, uh, anyway, I think people, uh, you know, associate us with being in the community and what we&#039 ; re doing JEAN ROSENBERG: Interested in community things an JOHN ROSENBERG: --and that--and the work we do. And I don&#039 ; t th--I&#039 ; m not sure that--whether--I&#039 ; m not sure that it&#039 ; s really a conscious thing about being Jewish. We don&#039 ; t talk about nobody else. But we, we haven&#039 ; t met--we haven&#039 ; t really mentioned my law partner, Ned Pillersdorf, who is Jewish and whose family is--who&#039 ; s from New York and who--whose family&#039 ; s Jewish. They&#039 ; re nominally Jewish. He doesn--and he also is married. His wife, Judge Janet Stumbo, is a judge on the Court of Appeals. Uh, and, uh, they don&#039 ; t, uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --practice JOHN ROSENBERG: --practice. I m he doesn&#039 ; t. He&#039 ; s not involved. And he&#039 ; s gonna--he&#039 ; s not--doesn&#039 ; t come to services. We sorta joke about his not coming to services or, uh, being a--uh, you know, being involved in any o&#039 ; the traditions. He&#039 ; s come--they&#039 ; ve come to our Passover, from time to time. And we&#039 ; re very good friends. But there is that other, uh, Jewish lawyer. And periodically, people get us confused-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --since we&#039 ; re bo JEAN ROSENBERG: --same hairstyle JOHN ROSENBERG: --since we have the same hairstyle. And we also prac--we&#039 ; re--I&#039 ; m of counsel to his law firm. And we&#039 ; ve, you know, done a lotta things together. So where the DONAHUE: --where does he live? JOHN ROSENBERG: In Prestonsburg. DONAHUE: Oh, okay. Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. They live in--they live ou--I mean, they live in--technically, in Van Lear--is a Van Lear address. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --but they&#039 ; re just outside of town. And his office is in Prestonsburg. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: So we shouldn&#039 ; t--I think, if he&#039 ; s asked, &quot ; What&#039 ; s your religion?&quot ; I think he says J--he would say it&#039 ; s Jewish. And I&#039 ; ll have to ask him. But I think that&#039 ; s JEAN ROSENBERG: --oh, he would JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah JEAN ROSENBERG: --for sure. JOHN ROSENBERG: I mean, his father was, uh, in--was in the military and was a POW, and then came out, and had a store. And his--and, uh--and he grew up in New York City DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --outside of New York City-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --went to Vanderbilt, went to, uh, McGeorge law school, was a public defender. He&#039 ; s a good lawyer. So there is DONAHUE: --how long has he been in Prestonsburg? JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, probably th--I think they&#039 ; ve been married about thirty years. Right? Sarah&#039 ; s JEAN ROSENBERG: --yeah. JOHN ROSENBERG: He&#039 ; s probably been there thirty-five years, at least. And, uh--but now one of his children, one--he has three daughters. And one of the daughters went on a Birthright Israel trip DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --Nancy. Didn&#039 ; t she go? I think she did, one year. JEAN ROSENBERG: Boy, I can&#039 ; t remember that. But it&#039 ; s okay. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh DONAHUE: --you mentioned Israel. What i--what are your feelings about Israel? We talked about--a little--that a little in the last interview too but just to follow up. Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, we went there. And then, I have a cousin, who is my age DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --still working. And we&#039 ; ve s--visited with them. His wife is an artist. And, uh, they have several children. And one of the--his--and his son is here in New York. And his granddaughter came to Raleigh. Uh, so we have that family connection. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh, we&#039 ; ve--uh, uh, Jean--We were talking about places we might yet go--uh, just ready--we, we&#039 ; ll probably go back. I mean, I DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --what--I think it&#039 ; s a wonderful country. I think it&#039 ; s a--it&#039 ; s an amazing place, in many ways. And, uh, really, I think, uh, you know, we&#039 ; re--I think everybody--I think a, a lot of folks are frustrated in trying to f figure out c--whether these countries can ever--the non--th--whether the Israeli and the Arabs that they&#039 ; re surrounded by will ever find a way to have peace. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh, I don&#039 ; t know that that&#039 ; s ever gonna be any different than it is right now. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, it&#039 ; s a tragedy, really. And--but, uh--but I think you can have different--you know, the, the, the efforts of trying to, uh, have some intermediaries and trying to do something to bring about peace or to bring out better relations between Jews and non-Jews, and those are worthwhile. But it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s a conundrum. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --but, uh, certainly very supportive of the country. I&#039 ; m glad this country is supportive of Israel. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --and I think it&#039 ; s a very--uh, they&#039 ; re ver--in a very difficult position. Because so many of these children that are growing up in the countries around them grow up from--go through an educational system where they&#039 ; re taught to hate DONAHUE: --um-hm JOHN ROSENBERG: --their neighbors, uh, taught to hate Israel and would like to see it eradicated. DONAHUE: Uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --that&#039 ; s--in my mind, that&#039 ; s a tragedy. But what can ha--be done? So, I don&#039 ; t know. Do you have somethin&#039 ; you want to add to that? JEAN ROSENBERG: It&#039 ; s a differe--you know, s--you have to live your life in accordance to your best thinking. JOHN ROSENBERG: We are--we&#039 ; re pr--ver--you know, we talk to them, once in a while. Uh, they&#039 ; re really lovely folks--our relations there DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --in Haifa. DONAHUE: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: And they&#039 ; re--I visited them when I was in the military, in 1955-56, when we were--well, uh, my cousin&#039 ; s a couple years younger, I think. And his mother, who&#039 ; s my father&#039 ; s sister, was still living. And they were on--uh, living in a farming--farm community, back then DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --near, uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --we we--uh, we went in &#039 ; 69. JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, when Jean was pregnant with Michael-- DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --our first trip DONAHUE: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --together. JEAN ROSENBERG: Um-hm. JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah. DONAHUE: Uh--Uh JEAN ROSENBERG: --on the JOHN ROSENBERG: --s--uh, so we have that connection. Uh DONAHUE: --yeah, I know-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --well DONAHUE: --it&#039 ; s time to-- JEAN ROSENBERG: --uh DONAHUE: --you all have to move along. Do you JOHN ROSENBERG: --is that all right-- DONAHUE: --is there anything else that you want to say, before we close, that I haven&#039 ; t asked about? JEAN ROSENBERG: Have you--do you feel comfortable that you&#039 ; ve covered what you needed to cover? DONAHUE: Well, I, I feel like we could do more but that I think we, we got at the core of the JEAN ROSENBERG: --okay DONAHUE: --of the issues. JEAN ROSENBERG: Okay. DONAHUE: So I think that&#039 ; s--I think that&#039 ; s good. And I&#039 ; ll, uh--you know, if-- JOHN ROSENBERG: --w DONAHUE: --maybe we can arrange another time JOHN ROSENBERG: --I don&#039 ; t whether DONAHUE: --if we need to, some other day JEAN ROSENBERG: --uh JOHN ROSENBERG: --who will watch this and find it interest--(Donahue laughs)--and find it useful. We&#039 ; re certainly in a JEAN ROSENBERG: --parenting is a JOHN ROSENBERG: --I&#039 ; m probably JEAN ROSENBERG: --is always, uh, uh, uh, uh, a work in progress, is it not-- DONAHUE: --yes JOHN ROSENBERG: --I&#039 ; m probably an, uh--(Donahue laughs)--we&#039 ; re probably an anomaly, in some ways. But, uh DONAHUE: --you&#039 ; re very unusual people. (John laughs) [End of interview] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh159_jk027_rosenberg_ohm.xml 2016oh159_jk027_rosenberg_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh159_jk027_rosenberg_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource John and Jean Rosenberg, July 1, 2016 Description An account of the resource Born in Magdeburg, Germany, John Rosenberg begins the interview by discussing the importance of Judaism in his family's life growing up. His father was a Jewish schoolteacher and assisted the local rabbi while his mother kept a kosher household. Rosenberg's parents met in Idar-Oberstein after his father moved there to be a religious schoolteacher. His mother, Gerta, was a student of his father's. Although too young to remember much of the rise of the Nazi regime in 1933, John Rosenberg notes that his strongest memories are of his parents and from photographs that he was shown. When he started school in the first grade, Rosenberg remembers Hitler's decree that Jewish students would be separated from Aryan children. This decree led to his father organizing a school for Jewish schoolchildren where he attended first grade in Magdeburg, Germany. Rosenberg then recalls the night of Kristallnacht on November 11th, 1938, which he remembers very clearly. He describes his family's oppression during the Nazi regime. He mentions that some of his extended family were sent to Auschwitz concentration camp where they were then murdered. John Rosenberg and his immediate family immigrated to the United States on one of the last ships leaving Holland in 1940 before World War II broke out. He describes the name-changing process when they arrived at Ellis Island where his German name, Hans, was changed to John. John Rosenberg's father moved to Spartanburg, South Carolina to conduct services at the local synagogue. John and his family moved to Spartanburg shortly after in 1941 and started school. Growing up, he spent a lot of time participating in a predominantly Christian scout camp. He participated in prayers and sometimes he sang Christian hymns, recalling that it did not bother him much. As he discusses other experiences in the non-Jewish community, he reflects on his views on anti-Semitism and the fact that he didn’t face overt prejudice during his time in the scouts or since he came to the United States. He then talks about his life today and how he and his wife have good relations with the local Christian community, volunteering at the Presbyterian church's service ministry programs. He then describes the rituals that his family tried to continue when they came to the United States such as keeping Sabbath and going to the synagogue. Transitioning into a discussion on justice, John Rosenberg starts by quoting Isaiah in the Old Testament, "Justice, justice shall you pursue" when asked about the notion of justice within Judaism. When asked how he and wife ended up in eastern Kentucky, John recalls that he founded the Appalachian Research and Defense Fund which was involved in legal issues such as mineral rights and black lung and decided to join the branch in Prestonsburg, Kentucky. John Rosenberg also did a lot of the legal work that went along with purchasing the town and joined the Community Development Corporation which helped secure funding for the newly purchased town. The David School was formed in the community and it focused a lot on one-on-one education, which was why Rosenberg's daughter, Annie, left public school to go there. He then describes his children's current spiritual lives, saying that if they remembered their Jewish heritage that that would be good enough for him. Jean Rosenberg joins the discussion by describing her relationship with Judaism as a Quaker. They then discuss the dynamic of an interfaith marriage, saying they always celebrated Christmas and Hanukkah. John and Jean transition into a brief discussion on the Appalachian Research and Defense Fund (AppalReD), a legal aid program that John Rosenberg founded. They end the interview discussing their thoughts on Israel and with closing remarks. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh159_jk027 Subject The topic of the resource Families. Family histories. Genealogy Jewish children Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/e6faf60c0f5b8b16f4fc9544222d8e71.jpeg f66d201e69002fa26f4c5e4d416efad6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice W. Fernheimer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Max Shapira Interview Keyword Immigrants Education Jewish merchants--Kentucky General stores Childhood Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish children--Kentucky--Bardstown Genealogy Discrimination. Women in the whiskey industry OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh154_jk026 Interview with Max Shapira, May 24, 2016 2016oh154_jk026 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Family-owned business enterprises. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Bardstown Jews--Kentucky--Bardstown. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Louisville (Ky.) Families. Alcohol industry. Bardstown (Ky.) Bourbon whiskey Distillation. Distilleries--Kentucky Distillers. Religion Immigrants Education Jewish merchants--Kentucky General stores Childhood Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish children--Kentucky--Bardstown Genealogy Discrimination. Women in the whiskey industry Max Shapira Janice W. 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Today is May 24th, 2016. My name is Janice W. Fernheimer. I’m the director of Jewish Studies at the University of Kentucky, and I am here with Max Shapira. Maxwell Louis Shapira was born on January 8th, 1944 in Louisville, Kentucky. He grew up in Bardstown, Kentucky, which is the headquarters of his family's company, Heaven Hill Brands. Shapira lived in Bardstown until he was a junior in high school. His family then moved to Louisville where he spent his last two years of school in a public high school. He went to undergraduate college at Washington and Lee University in Lexington, Virginia. He then did two years at Harvard Business School where he received his MBA. After graduate school he did a stint on Wall Street then eventually made his way back to Louisville in the early '70s. His grandfather, Maxwell Shapira, came to the United States from Lithuania in the late 1800s and emigrated through New Orleans. A peddler, his grandfather made his way to New Haven, Kentucky where he opened a junior department store. His grandfather married his grandmother and had five sons who became of age in about the mid-1920s and opened more general stores in various small towns across Kentucky. One of the stores was situated in Bardstown, which was run by his father. Even during the crash of Wall Street and the start of World War II, his father's general store business was relatively successful. Department stores ; General stores ; Germany ; Harvard Business School ; High schools ; Lexington (Va.) ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Maxwell Shapira ; New Haven (Ky.) ; New Orleans (La.) ; Peddlers ; Public schools ; Wall Street ; Washington and Lee University ; World War II Bardstown (Ky.) ; Depressions--1929--Kentucky ; Education ; Emigration and immigration. ; Genealogy ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Immigrants ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish merchants--Kentucky ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; World War, 1939-1945 38.2527, -85.7585 17 Louisville (Ky.) 358 Beginning of Old Heaven Hill Springs Distillery Along about 1932, '31, I think even actually before that, the other social piece of what was going on here in the United States was Prohibition, which started... In the midst of the crash of Wall Street in 1929, the start of World War II, and the end of Prohibition, Max Shapira's father chose to invest in the alcoholic beverage industry. This was a risky business move given there was no facility, no warehouses, no inventory, and no brand to start with. With a $15,000 loan, the distillery was built and whiskey began to be produced. However, in about 1937 the company got into some financial trouble and the Shapira family bought out the business for $25,000. From that time the entire business was owned by the Shapira family and it was named Old Heaven Hill Springs Distillery. About two years after the buyout, Heaven Hill released their 2-year-old bourbon whiskey, Bourbon Falls. Although not the best tasting bourbon, it brought the company revenue that it desperately needed. Four years later, the company produced its Old Heaven Hill Bottled in Bond brand which was the number-one-selling bourbon whiskey in the state of Kentucky at the time. Bourbon ; Bourbon Falls ; Liquor businesses ; Old Heaven Hill Bottled in Bond ; Prohibition ; Whiskey Alcohol industry. ; Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Economic conditions. ; Families. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 37.815556, -85.463056 17 Bardstown (Ky.) http://www.heavenhill.com/our-history Link to Heaven Hill Distillery's history (formerly Old Heaven Hill Springs Distillery). 892 Family's general stores throughout Kentucky Okay, uh, can I actually take you back in time just a little bit? The Shapira family general stores, run by Maxwell and Annie Shapira, were located in the following towns across Kentucky: Bardstown, Lawrenceburg, Elizabethtown, Liberty, Winchester, Russellville, Harrodsburg, Danville, Paducah, and Owensboro. The five sons of Shapira's grandfather were sent out to small, rural towns to start these stores to service local, county seat towns. As the businesses grew, other people became involved, hence the multiple locations around Kentucky. Most of Shapira's family moved to Louisville where there was an office on 528 Main Street that served as the headquarters and warehouse for the general stores. Today that building is their Evan William Bourbon Experience business which is an artisanal distillery that gives tours and bourbon tastings. Annie Shapira ; Bourbon ; Evan Williams ; Evan Williams Bourbon Experience ; Family businesses ; Jewish businesses ; Main Street (Louisville, Ky.) ; Maxwell Shapira Bardstown (Ky.) ; Danville (Ky.) ; Elizabethtown (Ky.) ; General stores ; Harrodsburg (Ky.) ; Jewish businesspeople ; Lawrenceburg (Ky.) ; Liberty (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Owensboro (Ky.) ; Paducah (Ky.) ; Russellville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Winchester (Ky.) 37.072222, -88.6275 17 Paducah (Ky.) http://evanwilliams.com/visit.php Link to the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience website that provides more information on the history of the business. 1110 Growing up Jewish in Bardstown, Kentucky And can you tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up Jewish in Bardstown at that time? The Shapiras were one of two Jewish families in Bardstown ; the other was the Auslander family. Max Shapira's father married his mother, Sylvia, who was originally from Chicago, Illinois. Shapira describes his mother's transition from big-city Chicago to the small town of Bardstown, Kentucky. She was involved in various clubs and activities within the community and his dad had a very strong presence in the community, being a well-known businessman. Shapira recalls that he did not really think of anything being Jewish or non-Jewish. He does recall, however, his dad enrolling him in Christian parochial school for first grade and asking the teachers to give him extra math assignments while the other children did their religious activities. He describes his community growing up as open-minded and says he did programs in school for those interested in the Jewish traditions such as Passover and Hanukkah. Auslander family ; Christian parochial schools ; Community ; Grammar schools ; Hanukkah ; Jewish friends ; Jewish life ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Public schools ; Religious life Bardstown (Ky.) ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Bardstown ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Bardstown ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Bardstown. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 37.8092, -85.4669 17 Bardstown (Ky.) 1470 Role of Judaism in his early life Can, can you talk a little bit about, um, how those--how Judaism played into your life? That--what-- Shapira describes how his family kept a very kosher home growing up. They got their meat from a kosher butcher shop in Louisville, used separate dishes for meat and dairy during Passover, lit candles on Fridays, and attended Sunday school in Louisville. Shapira had a bar mitzvah and learned Hebrew at Sunday school and from a private tutor on Sunday afternoons. He also learned from the rabbi at Adath Jeshurun in Louisville before his bar mitzvah. Shapira notes that although the community was not Jewish, it did not change his mentality and that, if anything, it broadened it. He transitions into a discussion on his parents' relationship with Judaism and how they were very involved and practicing people. One of the most important things his parents taught him was that being Jewish was, &quot ; no barrier to entry... was just your religion ; and you can do anything you wanted.&quot ; Adath Israel (Louisville, synagogue) ; Adath Jeshurun Synagogue (Louisville) ; Bar mitzvahs ; Family values ; Jewish practices ; Judaism ; Kosher delis ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Religious life ; Sunday school ; Talmud Bardstown (Ky.) ; Childhood ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Bardstown ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Bardstown ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Bardstown. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.291898, -85.629475 17 Adath Israel Synagogue in Louisville, Kentucky 1798 Finding a spouse / involvement in Jewish community today And I hope you don't think I'm beating on a horse here. Shapira begins by describing how he and his wife, Ellen Hirsch, met through his younger sister, Ellen Shapira. The Hirsch family had been in Louisville since the mid-1800s. He notes that although she was Jewish, her Jewish background did not influence his decision in choosing her as a spouse ; it had more to do with the intellectual and fun aspects of the relationship. Shapira's wife, Ellen, is the public face of the two of them, actively involved in all the Jewish organizations in Louisville including Federation, the Jewish Hospital, and broader community organizations such as being a trustee of the Speed Museum, Hosparus, and a member of the ballet board. Shapira talks about his life revolving around business and family. It has been difficult getting the whole family together for Friday night dinners. Whenever they do get together, a lot of their conversations are business related. Ellen Hirsch ; Ellen Shapira ; Family life ; Grabfelder family ; Hosparus ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Hospital ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish organizations ; Marriage ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Speed Museum ; Wife Families. ; Genealogy ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.2527, -85.7585 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2256 Three-tier system of the bourbon industry / business ethics So we started this kind of line of questions talking about networks and the social network that led to your wife... Shapira begins by describing how the bourbon industry is structured as a three-tier system coming out of Prohibition. The three tiers are suppliers/producers/importers, distributors or wholesalers, and retail stores/bars/restaurants. Building these relationships is critical to having access to the market. He describes how his family's business interacts with that system. They were doing business with family, privately owned businesses around the country. Shapira states that from the middle 1960s, Heaven Hill has broadened its portfolio, having a hand in virtually every distilled spirit category in the industry. He transitions into a discussion on the family values that have carried over to his business. He concludes that being a &quot ; mensch&quot ; and doing the right thing is the most important thing. Discussion instead of argument and doing the right thing is especially important when meeting with customers or distributors, he notes. 1960s ; Bourbon ; Building business relationships ; Business ethics ; distributors ; Family values ; Kentucky Bourbon Tales ; Mensch ; Producers ; Prohibition ; Retailers ; Three tier distribution ; Whiskey Alcohol industry. ; Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Economic conditions. ; Families. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 37.815556, -85.463056 17 Bardstown (Ky.) 2623 Jewish values implemented in business Doing the right thing, ethical. Uh, the emphasis on being open to discussion and having--not always having a, a, a, a vitriolic argument, but a, a pro--a back-and-forth. These are some of the kinds of values that people might say are traditional Jewish values. Um, but, but you don’t see the word Jewish too much in, in transcripts of, of interviews with you. Shapira discusses Judaism's role in his business and the values that are implemented. He talks about how these &quot ; Jewish&quot ; values aren't necessarily publicly stated as Jewish, but are more natural and &quot ; part of your DNA.&quot ; He describes them as, &quot ; doing the right thing.&quot ; The subtleties of Jewish culture underlie corporate values perhaps but the business is about being a good person. Business ethics ; Family values ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish values Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion 37.815556, -85.463056 17 Bardstown (Ky.) 2837 Jewish influences seen in the Bourbon Heritage Center and the Evan Williams Bourbon Experience So, uh, to follow up a little bit on, on that space, can you tell me about what, what--uh, a little bit about the decisions or the discussions that went into the creation of the space, uh, at the center, with the, with the stars in the, in the ceiling? Shapira discusses the Jewish influences seen in the Bourbon Heritage Visitor Center, part of Heaven Hill Distilleries and the Kentucky Bourbon Trail. These influences include the stars seen on the ceiling at the Center, which was a collaborative project led by his first cousin, Harry Shapira, with the contractor. The stars are rarely noticed by visitors. It's a subtle way to tell the Jewish side of the bourbon story. Bourbon Heritage Visitor Center ; Evan Williams Bourbon Experience ; Harry Shapira ; Jewish tradition ; Magen David ; Star of David Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Bardstown ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Bardstown. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.256525, -85.759476 17 Evan Williams Bourbon Experience, Louisville (Ky.) http://www.bourbonheritagecenter.com Link to the Bourbon Heritage Center's website. 2974 Women's influence in bourbon business Um, as you know, I told you a little bit about the project JT and I are working on, and we’re really interested in these--in, in human stories, um, behind bourbon production. Shapira discusses his mother and his wife's role in the bourbon industry. He tells a story of his mother, Sylvia, who joined her husband at industry meetings where she made friends with the wives of all their distributors from around the country. This helped their company build relationships with other companies in the industry. Shapira's wife, Ellen, is very knowledgeable about the business, contributing ideas and also aiding with the relationship-building aspects of the business. Ellen's background is in career counseling. Bourbon ; Building businesses ; Ellen Hirsch ; Ellen Shapira ; Family life ; Mothers ; Sylvia Shapira ; Wives in bourbon businesses Alcohol industry. ; Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Economic conditions. ; Families. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry 37.815556, -85.463056 17 Bardstown (Ky.) 3475 Relations with other Jewish-owned distilleries Um, yeah, these relationships are, are, uh, key. Uh, the key facets, it’s--uh, um, you keep coming back to that dynamic of the relationships with vendors and distributors. Max Shapira believes their business brings a different perspective to the industry being a family-owned-and-operated business, whereas most of their competitors are large, foreign-owned companies. As the industry was starting, most of the businesses were privately owned, so the relationship-building aspect discussed earlier in the interview that the wives helped with was very important. Of the four largest national distributors today, three have Jewish backgrounds and/or are owned and managed by Jewish people. Shapira then names the largest Jewish-owned alcohol distributors that are present today: Southern Wine and Spirits owned by the Chaplin family, Glazer Distributing Company owned by the Glazer family out of Texas, Breakthrough Beverage mostly owned by the Merinoff family out of New York, and Republic National Distributing Company owned by several Jewish families, including the Dreeben family in Texas and the Davis family in Georgia. One of the first distributors they worked with for two generations was owned by the Levitch family in Louisville ; now bought by Southern Wine and Spirits but still with a Levitch distributor in Kentucky. This has gone across three generations. Bourbon ; Breakthrough Beverage ; Chaplin family ; Davis family ; Distilleries ; Dreeben family ; Family businesses ; Glazer Distributing Company ; Glazer family ; Jewish businesses ; Levitch family ; Merinoff family ; Republic National Distributing Company ; Robert Lipman ; Southern Wine and Spirits Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Families. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 17 3889 Thoughts on anti-Semitism Uh, of course, you know, over the course of the years, there’s been, uh--the--a lot of folks have, have paid interest in--(laughs)--paid attention to that curious fact of, of many different Jewish families involved. Shapira discusses anti-Semitism. Growing up in a small rural town in Kentucky (Bardstown), he never experienced any sort of anti-Semitism. Working in New York, in college or since, he has never experienced anti-Semitism, although he realizes it does exist. He talks about his positive experiences being Jewish, &quot ; doing the right thing,&quot ; and being accepted by others he came into contact with wherever he went. Antisemitism ; Central Kentucky ; New York Bardstown (Ky.) ; Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Bardstown ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Bardstown. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 37.815556, -85.463056 17 Bardstown (Ky.) 4100 Interesting stories of business interactions Um, I’m gonna switch gears back to those stories. You were talking about how the wives always knew which, which distributors or which sellers were easier to deal with and which ones weren’t. Shapira tells two stories of conflicts he and his father experienced with other businesses in the bourbon industry. One was with a demanding distributor from a larger company in the industry who he describes as having a &quot ; big personality.&quot ; His father attended one of this man's parties but the man was nowhere to be seen. Later in the night the man showed up in his pajamas asking everyone what they were doing there and announcing that he was going to sleep. The second story was one Shapira was involved in personally where he and a group of his distributors were in Paris, France when they ran into another one their distributors who seemed lost. The man did not know how to get French francs and therefore had no money for anything. He notes that those were examples of odd personalities in the industry. Business obstacles ; Liquor businesses Alcohol industry. ; Distillers. ; Whiskey industry 17 4316 The art and mystery of the bourbon industry Um, you talk about the art and mystery of making bourbon and how that captures people’s imagination. Can you tell us a little bit about what you think the art and mystery of bourbon is? Shapira starts by noting how interesting the bourbon whiskey industry is and how it is part of the social fabric of the country. He admires the idea that his business brings others together, whether it's getting together with friends or celebrating an event. He then briefly mentions the product's history in the United States, starting with George Washington and the great Whiskey Rebellion in the 1700s, and noting how the bourbon process is unique to America. Bourbon ; Family businesses ; History ; Social fabric Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 17 http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-encyclopedia/article/whiskey-production/ Link to more information on the Whiskey Rebellion. 4753 Future of Heaven Hill / closing remarks Uh, the--my last and final question, which I like to end every interview with, is, uh, is there anything that we didn’t talk about, or that you would like to be part of this record? In his closing remarks, Shapira emphasizes the importance of relationship-building within the bourbon industry that he feels has been lost over the years amongst bigger, international drink companies. He then discusses his biggest accomplishment at Heaven Hill which is involving the next generation in this industry to ensure a prosperous future. Last, Shapira talks about his children's interest in the family business. Bourbon ; Family businesses ; Generations ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Relationship building Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Families. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 37.815556, -85.463056 17 Bardstown (Ky.) interview Max Shapira was born in Louisville, Kentucky. He grew up in Bardstown, Kentucky, where his family's company, Heaven Hill Brands, is located. Shapira lived in Bardstown until he was a junior in high school when he moved to Louisville. His grandparents had five sons who came of age in the mid-1920's and opened multiple general stores in various small towns across Kentucky. One of the stores was operated by his father, Ed Shapira and located in Bardstown. Ed was one of the founders of Old Heaven Hill Distillery, the Shapira family’s original bourbon business. In the forties, most of Shapira's family moved to Louisville where an office on 528 Main Street served as the headquarters and warehouse for the general stores. Today that building houses their Evan William Bourbon Experience business. Max Shapira describes how his family kept a very kosher home growing up. Shapira notes that although the Bardstown community was not Jewish, this diversity did not change his mentality about his faith or others and that, if anything, it broadened it. He describes his parent’s relationship with Judaism and how he met his wife, Ellen Hirsch, through his younger sister, Ellen Shapira. He details the Jewish influences in Heaven Hill business practices, particularly conducting business ethically by always “doing the right thing.” He explains the Jewish heritage of Heaven Hill is subtly illustrated in the design of the Bourbon Heritage Center, part of Heaven Hill Distilleries and the Kentucky Bourbon Trail. Max Shapira then discusses the bourbon industry more specifically, touching on women’s roles as well as the craft of distilling and its integral role in American culture. In his closing remarks, Max Shapira emphasizes the importance of personal relationship-building within the bourbon industry and proclaims his biggest accomplishment at Heaven Hill to be involving the next generation and his family in this industry to ensure a prosperous future. FERNHEIMER: Good morning. Today is May 24th, 2016. My name is Janice W. Fernheimer. I&#039 ; m the director of Jewish Studies at the University of Kentucky, and I am here with Max Shapira. It is my great honor to be able to have the opportunity to interview you today, as part of the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project. If that&#039 ; s not a mouthful, I&#039 ; m not sure what is. (laughs) SHAPIRA: Well, well, it&#039 ; s nice to be here, as well. And hopefully I have something that I&#039 ; ll be able to contribute to this. FERNHEIMER: Well, I, I&#039 ; m very confident that you do. I hope you&#039 ; ll forgive me by asking--beginning by asking some very basic questions, uh, just so that we have them official for the record. SHAPIRA: Certainly. FERNHEIMER: Um, I&#039 ; d like to get started by asking you to talk a little bit about yourself. What was your name at birth, and when were you born? SHAPIRA: Uh, I was born on, uh, January 8th, 1944. Um, my full name is actually Maxwell Louis Shapira. And I was born here in Louisville, Kentucky, although we lived, at that time, and lived for any number of years thereafter, in Bardstown, Kentucky, which is the headquarters of where our company is, Heaven Hill Brands. Uh, so I lived in Bardstown for--until I was a junior in high school. Went to, uh, public school, uh, there, and, uh, uh, ultimately we moved to Louisville, where I spent my last two years of high school. And then was off to, uh, undergraduate school at, uh, Washington and Lee University in Lexington, Virginia. And I followed that up with, uh, two years at the Harvard Business School, where I received my MBA. After that, uh, I did a stint on Wall Street--and, uh, very exciting, very interesting--and, ultimately, made my way back here to Louisville, in the very early &#039 ; 70s. And I&#039 ; ve been here at our company ever since. FERNHEIMER: Wow. Homegrown here in Kentucky. I want to return to that in just a minute, um, but can I back up just for a minute to have you state your parents&#039 ; names and occupations, and when your family came to the US? SHAPIRA: Well, let me go back, uh, sort of, to the beginning of US time, in any event. FERNHEIMER: Sure. SHAPIRA: Uh, my grandfather, whose name was Max, as well. FERNHEIMER: Max, or Maxwell? SHAPIRA: Uh, Maxwell. And, uh, came over from Lithuania in the late 1800s, along about 1892, &#039 ; 93. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: He emigrated to, uh, this country through, uh, New Orleans. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: And, uh, ultimately made his way, uh, to this part of the country, uh, where he was a peddler, you know, in the, uh--with a pack on his back, uh, selling notions--you know, thread and thimbles and, you know, um, just basic household items--to families that, that he--that were on his route. Well, that business actually became, I guess, reasonably okay. And he, uh, then had a horse and carriage selling the same kind of things. That, ultimately, morphed into, uh, something a bit more extensive, when he opened a, what you would call, maybe, a junior department store in, in a little town called New Haven, Kentucky, which is about, uh, fifteen miles from Bardstown. The town is, is still there. It&#039 ; s still a very small town. Um, and that general department store--junior department store--uh, was really sort of like a general store. Um, they sold everything from pickles in a barrel to seeds and small farm implements to farmers, and just about everything in between including what you&#039 ; d call soft good--you know, things, uh--things such as that. Um, he, uh, married, uh, a, an, a woman from, um--who had immigrated from, uh, Germany, and, uh, was living in Louisville. And, uh, they were living in this small town of New Haven, Kentucky. They had, uh, five sons. And as the five sons, uh, became of age--which was probably about, uh, oh, the middle to--about the middle twenties, maybe in the late twenties--he sent them out to open additional general stores in various small towns in the state of Kentucky, one of which was Bardstown, which is where my dad, uh, uh, was, um--uh, was given the, the job (laughs) of opening that particular entity. This was all, again, during the late twenties, the early thirties. And you&#039 ; ve got to remember, in the--in this--in the country at that time, think of what was going on. You know, the Roaring Twenties were the Roaring Twenties, fine. But, of course, we had, you know, the, uh, crash of Wall Street in 1929. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: And then, from there until really more or less, uh, World War Two started-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --you had really difficult economic times, particularly from 1929 to about 1937, &#039 ; 38, &#039 ; 39. Um, but during all of that time, this, uh, junior-department-store business actually was a reasonably successful--and, actually, it was a very successful business, uh, because despite the economic times, people needed the basics. So, they needed socks for ten cents a pair. They needed a shirt for a dollar and a half and maybe a suit for a wedding or a funeral or something like that. Uh, and, uh, so, the business thrived. And, uh, my dad was a really good business person. And he, uh, uh, was known throughout the community. And, uh, along about 1932, &#039 ; 31--I think even after--before that, the other social piece of what was going on here in the United States was Prohibition, which started-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --in 1918, and finally ended with the Twenty-first Amendment in 1933. Now, uh, what happened was that by the--well, it was sort of a failure from day one, but (Fernheimer laughs) forgetting about all that, it just--it lasted until, again, it was 1933, but, you know, the last three or four years, people could see that the--it just really was the social--this great, noble experiment, as it&#039 ; s called, was just not going to work. And so, uh, there was a movement across the country to have it repealed. Simultaneously, as people saw this happening, there were a lot of people who wanted to get back into the alcohol-beverage business, particularly the American whiskey business, and even to define it a bit more, to the Kentucky bourbon business, uh, who had had some expertise and, and, uh, had been involved in it pre-Prohibition. Um, and so, along about 1933, a group who had this technical expertise who had been in the business before, from a plant level--from--in other words, from pro--from a production side of the business, um, came to my dad and said, &quot ; We want to get into, uh, uh, the business again. We think it has a bright future.&quot ; And, uh, I&#039 ; ll go into that in just a minute. &quot ; And we&#039 ; d like for you--we, we&#039 ; re, we&#039 ; ve got all the technical expertise. And we can build a facility. We can produce the product. We can help with, uh, understanding the nuances of different types--stock--ta--different styles of mash and all the other things--recipes, and all of this kind of thing. But we are short of money.&quot ; So they needed a financial invest--investor. Now, I jokingly sort of say, you know, this was sort of like private equity, 1933-style. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Right. SHAPIRA: Uh, it wasn&#039 ; t really (laughs) all that--all that f--um, formatted and, and detailed as it is today. But my dad and his brother said, &quot ; Well, we&#039 ; ll try this thing.&quot ; But think about it. This was the worst economic times. You had no facility. You had no warehouses. You had no inventory. FERNHEIMER: No. SHAPIRA: You had no brand. And if you even had all of that, how much whiskey did you make today for an industry starting back up on a brand that you don&#039 ; t even know what the name of it&#039 ; s going to be, to hold for four years until you have a product that was actually saleable? So, for four years, during the worst of economic times, you&#039 ; re getting no revenue, and you&#039 ; re only having more money to go into the business. Well, in any event, you know, (laughs) it just sounds like the riskiest--the riskiest kind of venture that you could ever imagine. And I, I, I say, it made the dot-com ventures of the late 1990s--you know, there were dozens and dozens of--look like a blue-chip investment relative to this thing. I mean, it just looked like a, you know--a--really a scheme more than anything else. Really, who would invest in something like this? Anyway, (Fernheimer laughs) they gave them fifteen thousand dollars, and, uh, that was a lot of money in those days. And the distillery was built. It wasn&#039 ; t, uh--there was no day-to-day involvement by Dad, because he was--he was living in Bardstown. But he&#039 ; d--you know, he&#039 ; d go out and visit the plants. I&#039 ; ve heard all of these stories, but-- FERNHEIMER: And he was still running the store at this time? SHAPIRA: Uh, yes. And, uh, but, well, again, he didn&#039 ; t know anything about the business. And these other people were supposed to do it. He was just the, the money guy, (laughs) if you want to call it that. So after about a year and a half, the plant was build, whiskey was being produced. Went into, uh some warehouses. And, uh, the people who had all the technical expertise, apparently they got in some personal financial trouble. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SHAPIRA: And they came to--back to my dad and said, &quot ; Look, we&#039 ; re either gonna to have to close this thing down, or you have to buy us out, or we&#039 ; re gonna have to liquidate it in some way. But we&#039 ; re in&quot ; --we meaning them--&quot ; we&#039 ; re in a really bad financial straits.&quot ; Because remember, still, in nineteen thirty-th--1935 was when we first produced our first barrel, barrel of whiskey. And this was a year and a half later. So it was about nineteen thirty-s--late 1936, 1937. So the--you know, economic times were still very, very bad. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SHAPIRA: So anyway, uh, the, uh, family, I guess, took a deep breath and bought &#039 ; em out for another twenty-five thousand dollars. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SHAPIRA: So, for approximately forty thousand dollars, over a course of about a year and a half or two years, the family ultimately, uh, gained control over the whole thing. It became a hundred percent owned by our family. And, uh, it was called the Old Heaven Hill Springs Distillery, at that time. And that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s really sort of what happened. Now, my dad--of course, he was living in Bardstown running the store--was given the opp--job of seeing whether this thing was going to work or not. And, you know, things were pretty tough because, yeah, there&#039 ; s nothing, nothing coming in and a whole lot going out. And bad times--he didn&#039 ; t know your brand was gonna sell or not sell or whatever. He didn&#039 ; t even have a brand at that point. But after about two years--and this is--I guess I should go ahead and say this--this, this wasn&#039 ; t the proudest day in the history of, uh, Heaven Hill. But there was a bit of desperation to have some sort of revenue. You can sell--to produce---you can produce and sell bourbon whiskey at two years of age. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: It doesn&#039 ; t taste--of course, it doesn&#039 ; t taste--it didn&#039 ; t taste great then, and it didn&#039 ; t--and it doesn&#039 ; t taste great now. This is a business about patience, actually. You&#039 ; ve gotta really have a lot of patience in this business. But anyway, uh-- FERNHEIMER: Was it rectified? SHAPIRA: Well, no, well, it was a--it was a Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey adhering to all of the rules and standards of identity and everything else. But they, they, they had a brand called Bourbon Falls. They brought it out under that name. It gave a little bit of revenue until you could really wait and have something that was great, which everybody felt would be a four years of age. So at four years of age, uh, they brought out a brand called--you know, the--it&#039 ; s not--today it&#039 ; s not--you know, it&#039 ; s not brain surgery. It was--the br--the company was called Heaven Hill Brands--uh, Heaven Hill Distilleries, at that time. And they brought out a brand, Old Heaven Hill Bottled in Bond. Bottled-in-bond whiskey was four years of age--minimum of four years of age. It was hundred proof, 50 percent alcohol. It was what people really wanted at that time. Today, actually, there&#039 ; s a resurgence in that sub-segment of the, uh, American whiskey business. But, uh--but at that time, that&#039 ; s what everybody wanted. It really was great quality. And it quickly became the number-one-selling bourbon whiskey here in the state of Kentucky. So that gave everybody lots of, um--of, uh, hope that this might actually become a real business. And, uh, hired some people along the way--some really good people along the way. And, uh--and it, it did start to develop. You know, you, you had a success here, and then you would go to another market that was contiguous. Usually would be like Tennessee or Indiana or Ohio or something like that. And, uh, the business started just to expand on that basis. So, from, from the inception of the business in 1935 until about the mid-sixties, our company was, um, strictly and only a producer of various types of American whiskey. Uh, all during this time, through a lot of ups and downs, uh--and I can get into that in a minute--but, uh, the--there was-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah-- SHAPIRA: --through a lot of ups and downs along the way-- FERNHEIMER: --but-- SHAPIRA: --um, the, uh--we had this national network of distributors around the country. FERNHEIMER: I want to ask you some questions about that once-- SHAPIRA: --sure-- FERNHEIMER: --in, in just a second. SHAPIRA: Okay, good--you want to do that now, or at, at--do you want to ask it now? I can-- FERNHEIMER: --I-- SHAPIRA: --I can pick it back up here. FERNHEIMER: Um, okay, uh, can I actually take you back in time just a little bit? SHAPIRA: Sure. FERNHEIMER: &#039 ; Cause I want to talk a little bit more about those stores--the family stores all throughout Kentucky. SHAPIRA: Fair enough. FERNHEIMER: Um, can you tell me your grandmother&#039 ; s name? You, you mentioned your grandfather, Maxwell. And-- SHAPIRA: --her name was Annie. FERNHEIMER: Annie? SHAPIRA: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And can you tell me the different locations of the family stores across Kentucky? SHAPIRA: Sure, uh, well I-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm. One here in-- SHAPIRA: --I may not get them all, but I can give you sort of a smattering of them. FERNHEIMER: Sure. SHAPIRA: Uh, they range from, of course, Bardstown ; Lawrenceburg, uh, Kentucky ; uh, Elizabethtown ; uh, Liberty ; uh, Winchester ; uh, Russellville ; and the, the--I think there was, uh, Harrodsburg--uh, Harrodsburg ; and Danville ; and I think there were one or two other locations as well. It&#039 ; s--at one point, I think there was a store down in Paducah--Paducah or Owensboro. FERNHEIMER: And do you know how they arrived at these particular places? Were the brothers already living there, or-- SHAPIRA: --no, uh, no. Uh, the--again, you know, the, the five brothers were sent out. And, um--and they were sent out to small towns, rural towns. Uh, you&#039 ; ll notice the absence of Lexington. You&#039 ; ll notice the absence of Louisville. You had, really, the absence of Bowling Green, as well. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: So these were small towns servicing the local communities. And most all of these towns were, uh, county seats, so that was sort of the center of commerce in each of the, uh, counties around. So that was where people came in to do, uh--you know, to, uh, arrange for any legal things they had to do, or financial things they had to do at the bank, or whatever. And so, it was a good--it was the place for commerce, generally, in each of these counties around the state. Obviously, I&#039 ; ve named more than five. So, as, as the business grew over the years, then there were other people that were--uh, that were--became involved in the business and, um, were sent--were--helped open stores and do that kind of thing. FERNHEIMER: And were they all general stores like you described in d--Bardstown? SHAPIRA: --they were all general stores. Yes, the--yes, exactly. They were all the same kind of concept. FERNHEIMER: And was there travel back and forth for the family, or did--was there one particular-- SHAPIRA: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --place where the family convened for meetings or-- SHAPIRA: --well, uh, ultimately, most of the family moved to Louisville. Uh, and that was probably by the forties, there were people who were living in Louisville. Uh, the, the, the family were living in Louisville. But we, uh--our part of the family remained in Bardstown for very long--yeah--till I was a junior in high school. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SHAPIRA: And, uh--and so, there was an office here. And, uh, we had a couple of different buildings. But ultimately had an office on Main Street. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: Uh, at 528 West Main Street. FERNHEIMER: In Bardstown? SHAPIRA: Which to--no, no, here, here in Louisville. FERNHEIMER: Oh, SHAPIRA: And that&#039 ; s where, sort of, the headquarters was. It was--uh, that served as--not only as our corporate offices for that business, but also served as a warehouse for merchandise. It was a several-story building of whatever. Today, we&#039 ; ve actually changed that over to--just a few years ago, and it&#039 ; s now our Evan Williams Bourbon Experience. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: It&#039 ; s right, right downtown, right on Main Street-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah-- SHAPIRA: --right--you know, one block away from the river. FERNHEIMER: I wondered if it-- SHAPIRA: --and that was, you know, sort of an area where there were all sorts of warehouses like this, at that time. FERNHEIMER: And can you tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up Jewish in Bardstown at that time? SHAPIRA: Well, we were one of only two Jewish families in Bardstown. And, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --who was the second? SHAPIRA: The second was the Auslander family--A-u-s-l-a-n-d-e-r. And they actually had a--sort of a similar kind of, uh, department store, uh, in competition with us. (Fernheimer laughs) Uh, but they were good friends and, uh, the, uh, the son was about my age. And, uh, we&#039 ; d get together and whatever. But growing up in Bardstown was, uh--well, I mean, just--let me go back. This is--my dad, uh, uh, uh, married my mother, whose name was Sylvia. She was from Chicago. And, uh, lived all her life there and, uh, was a real pretty woman. I mean, she was a real--uh, the--you know, if some--if she walked in the room, people would look at her. She was really a--quite a lovely-looking person. So she came--you know, she was living in Chicago, and the next thing she knows, she&#039 ; s in a town of about, you know, fifteen hundred people (Fernheimer laughs) or two thousand people and-- FERNHEIMER: --when--who--when-- SHAPIRA: --or maybe a little bit larger as they--as it got along. But, um, living in Bardstown, and you&#039 ; d think it would be like, um, just, you know, the, uh--that someone couldn&#039 ; t be happy in that kind of--she loved it. She was--she was involved in all of the local, uh, clubs. It may, may sound silly today, but the garden club and the school and all of the other things that went on--that go on in any community. But in a small community, it&#039 ; s the same sort of things, and she was involved with all these kinds of activities. And, um--and loved it. So we grew up in this environment where my dad was a pretty well-known--uh, well, very well-known businessperson in Bardstown and sort of the surrounding county. And my mother just was active in all sorts of these local organizations, and loved it. And, uh, I sort of grew up in that sort of atmosphere. I&#039 ; m--uh, uh--I really didn&#039 ; t know anything that Jewish versus not being Jewish--it, it, it never even really occurred to me. I went to school, uh, from--you know, again, from--well, I actually--I went to school about--it&#039 ; s sort of a humorous kind of little story here. The way my birthday was--fell, uh, uh, you, you were gonna have to be held back another year because you-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --couldn&#039 ; t start the year at school. So my dad went to, uh, the, uh, parochial-school system, and said, &quot ; Do you think that you can take Max, um, and let him be in the first grade here at the parochial school?&quot ; And, and, they said, &quot ; Fine.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; Well, I only have one request.&quot ; He said, um, uh, &quot ; You know, when you have the religious part of it, could you just do something (laughs)--just--could you do something else--could you occupy him with some other sort--form of, uh, education?&quot ; (both laugh) You know, so I don&#039 ; t know what the-- FERNHEIMER: --quiet time in the corner. SHAPIRA: Well, yeah, well, wait until you hear what this is all--and what happened. Uh, so they said, &quot ; Fine.&quot ; And, uh, they--you know, very helpful. And so, anyway--so I went to parochial school for the, uh--the, uh, kindergarten. I mean--kindergarten. For, uh, first grade. And I&#039 ; ll always remember--I remember to this day. It was just this--an odd thing. Uh, that when they had the, the religious part of the, uh, program, they would take me out, put me in a room, and give me extra math to do. (Fernheimer laughs) And I&#039 ; m thinking, everybody else is just sitting around and whatever, and here I am in here working on this math. I mean, this did not sound, like, legit. It wasn&#039 ; t one of those things that was like, &quot ; This is the greatest thing ever.&quot ; It was like, &quot ; Why is everybody else not having all of this extra math?&quot ; Anyway, that&#039 ; s what happ--well, anyway, so after that I, um, went to the regular elementary-school system, public-school system, in, uh, Bardstown. And, um, all the way up until I was a junior and we moved to--uh, when I was a junior. But I didn&#039 ; t--but during that time, I mean, it was like everybody was--I don&#039 ; t know if I&#039 ; d use the word curious, but they always--it was a very open kind of community, you know, for--and I don&#039 ; t even know if you could get by doing this today, but, uh, on Passover, I would take matzo to school and everybody--and I&#039 ; d do a little program. I remember at--remember being asked, uh, &quot ; Now tell us what this is all about and how this all works.&quot ; You know, uh, for good, better, or, or bad, or indifferent, you know, I got presents on Christmas days from Santa Claus. It wasn&#039 ; t a religious thing, so to speak, but it, it was sort of an American thing--Santa Claus. And then, two weeks before or two weeks after--whatever it was--then we had a big Chanukah celebration. And, I think, the--my non-Jewish friends said, &quot ; You know, that&#039 ; s pretty good. You get presents twice in this thing.&quot ; (Fernheimer laughs) But, I mean--and, and, you know, I had friends who were over at the house for, uh, Friday-night dinners and, uh, for Passover, or the, uh, uh, Chanukah celebration, or whatever. So it was really--I mean, this was a long time ago. And, uh--but it was really just quite open and, uh, quite easy, and it was easy to be a part of the--of, of, the, uh, school system. FERNHEIMER: Well, you talked a little bit about Friday-night dinners and Passover seders, and keeping matzo, and obviously it was important to your dad that, that you not-- SHAPIRA: --yeah, &#039 ; cause-- FERNHEIMER: --be involved with the Christian part of things at parochial school. Can you talk a little-- SHAPIRA: --no, no, but, yeah, that, that was a--that was--there--but that was at the, the parochial-school system. But when I was in the, uh, public-school system, I&#039 ; d be in the Christmas plays. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. (laughs) SHAPIRA: There you go, really. FERNHEIMER: Can you--can you talk a little bit about, um, how those--how Judaism played into your life? That--what-- SHAPIRA: --we had a-- FERNHEIMER: --did you go to synagogue? You mentioned Shabbat dinners, those kinds of things. SHAPIRA: --uh, uh, sure. We had a kosher home-- FERNHEIMER: Whoa-- SHAPIRA: --absolutely. No w-- FERNHEIMER: --where did the meat come from? SHAPIRA: --w--w--well, I&#039 ; ll, I&#039 ; ll get--a kosher home, like unto the nth degree, where, for Passover, there were separate sets of dishes. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: You know, Friday nights were always--the candles were always lit on Friday evening. Uh, we--on Sunday, we would come to Louisville for Sunday school. Uh-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --and, of course, the family--the--you know, the rest of the family was here in Louisville so, you know, we&#039 ; d mingle with the family after lunch, and then come back to Bardstown. But, um, we would, if you want to call it--we would import into Bardstown kosher meat from the kosher butcher shop that--who--that, uh, existed here in Louisville. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SHAPIRA: And brought it back, and, uh, you know, we&#039 ; d always go shop--for Passover, we&#039 ; d all go out shopping in Louisville for the--uh, for the kosher foods, uh, across the board, everything. And bring it all back to Bardstown. So that&#039 ; s--that was just a part of it. And, of course, my dad would, uh--and mother both would probably come to Louisville once--at least once a week beyond a Sunday for business ma--dad, of course, for business thing--business things, my mother just to see, in effect, her sister-in-laws, and, uh, mingle with them, and hear the stories about family life in Louisville and all the other things that went on, and what, what everybody&#039 ; s kids were doing, and, uh, et cetera. FERNHEIMER: So, uh, it sounds like it was a pretty strong part of growing up. I, uh--I&#039 ; m, uh, uh-- SHAPIRA: --we--uh, yeah, I mean, there was never any question. Uh, uh, I was bar mitzvahed. We had--you know, you learned Hebrew at Sunday school. And then you had sp--uh, since I could not go to the regular Hebrew classes at the synagogue, &#039 ; cause we were in Bardstown and just couldn&#039 ; t go back and forth, on Sunday afternoons I would have private tutor--a private tutor who taught me Hebrew. And, uh, then, learning for--you know, getting, getting ready for your bar mitzvah, I worked with the rabbi at the, uh, synagogue--Adath Jeshurun here in Louisville. And, uh, we c--then we would come in, in an afternoon, uh, in the middle of the week, and then on Sunday afternoon as well. And that&#039 ; s just sort of how it went. I mean, it wasn&#039 ; t--it was just all part of it, you know? It&#039 ; s--and--but it j--it goes to show--I mean, it goes to show that, really--I probably shouldn&#039 ; t even say all this kind of stuff now, because it&#039 ; s getting into the, uh--the era today of political correctness and not saying a prayer in school. I mean, there were prayers said in school all the time. Uh, they were--and you heard them. You participated in the--in the, um, Christmas, uh, pageants or whatever. But if your home, uh, focus from family and your support system around you, that was just part of it. But it didn&#039 ; t become--it didn&#039 ; t change your mentality. It probably broadened your mentality to some--to some degree. So, you know, today, uh, not having a prayer before a ballgame or a--you know, this happened all the time back then. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: And nobody thought a thing about it. And from a personal standpoint, it certainly didn&#039 ; t change any of my beliefs or whatever. I probably said, oh, gosh, there&#039 ; s another segment of the world--of the world, and what people do in a different way. And that&#039 ; s fine for them, and what I do is fine for me. And everything of, of life went on. FERNHEIMER: So how would you describe your parents&#039 ; relationship to Judaism, if you had to sum it up in a couple of sentences? Um-- SHAPIRA: Well, they, uh--they were certainly very involved, practicing Jewish people. I don&#039 ; t know that I would say that they were religious in a--in learning the, the w--the, uh, teachings of the Talmud or something like that, uh, in depth. But being part of that Jewish community, uh, the, uh, sense of, uh--of, um--from one generation to another, to pass down traditions, I think was--uh, I think--I know was a hugely important piece of what they thought about. FERNHEIMER: And, and wh--what do you think---what sticks with you most about what they taught you about Judaism? SHAPIRA: Well, I think that it was--it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s the cohesion of a community that has existed for many generations, that have been part of a--of the culture wherever they&#039 ; ve existed, whether it was in, uh, Europe or whether it was in the United States. But that, in the modern world of the United States, that one being Jewish was no barrier to entry ; was, was just your religion ; and you can do anything that you wanted. FERNHEIMER: And I, I hope you don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; m beatin&#039 ; on a horse here. I&#039 ; ve got just a couple more questions on this-- SHAPIRA: -that&#039 ; s all right. This, this is fine. FERNHEIMER: --and then I&#039 ; ll bring you back. SHAPIRA: --this is fine. This is fine. FERNHEIMER: Um, can you tell me a little bit about how Judaism figured into romance and the setting up of your own family? I know, in the Bourbon Tales interview, you talk about your wife, Ellen, and how she&#039 ; s part of the Grabfelder family--uh, another, another whiskey family, if you will, here in Louisville. SHAPIRA: Okay. Uh, well, I&#039 ; m not quite sure where to start on this. Uh, you know, we moved to Louisville when I was a junior in high school, and, uh, my sister--Ellen--uh, she had a lot of --uh, you know, people introduced her to a lot of friends and whatever. And so, they were always over at the house, and one of those--one of her friends was, uh--was Ellen. Uh, her name was Ellen Hirsch. And she was part of a family here in Louisville that had been actually in this area since 1848--I mean, many generations. And her mother and her father, they knew, I don&#039 ; t know, every man, woman, and child, I believe, here in the entire city of Louisville. (Fernheimer laughs) Uh, and, uh, uh, so, you know, she, she was always around. Of course, a lot of other of Ellen&#039 ; s, uh, um--my sister&#039 ; s friends were always around. And, uh, she was--my sister encouraged me. She said, &quot ; Well, why, why don&#039 ; t you take her out? We&#039 ; ll go--all go to a movie together and we&#039 ; ll double date,&quot ; or whatever. And so, we did. And, uh, I guess that was--that was probably the latter part of my junior year in high school. And, uh, so, I--you know, I don&#039 ; t know that, uh, the Jewish influence, uh, actually--or the, the Jewish background influenced the likeability or non-likeability, actually. Um, I don&#039 ; t think the--I don&#039 ; t know that that ever came into, uh--to, uh--to play. Obviously, we were both Jewish. That was fine. But it was more of the intellectual and just fun atmosphere of, of associating with somebody. FERNHEIMER: But you met her through your sister&#039 ; s network? SHAPIRA: I met her through my sister, yeah, ab--oh, absolutely. And, um, of course, they were--have been--were, were then, and to this day are lifelong friends. Is--um, and, uh--and that&#039 ; s just sort of the way it happened then. FERNHEIMER: Is your sister older or younger? Remind me. SHAPIRA: Younger sister. FERNHEIMER: Younger. And, uh, how many other bro--any other brothers or sisters? SHAPIRA: No, it was just the two of us. FERNHEIMER: Just the two of you? And how much younger than you is she? SHAPIRA: She&#039 ; s, uh, two years. FERNHEIMER: Two years younger. So, it sounds like this was really important, in, in terms of networks and social networks, but you--if--it wasn&#039 ; t Judaism, per se, but it was who you were coming in contact with through your sister. Um, is there--uh, can you tell me a little bit about your involvement now in the Jewish community, either in, in Louisville or anywhere else? SHAPIRA: Well, uh, I don&#039 ; t know that I&#039 ; d call it the Jewish community as much just the community in general. Uh, now, my wife--I have never been the joiner of committees (Fernheimer laughs) or organizations--uh. I&#039 ; ve been--my life has been--you know, I sort of--when we just had our fiftieth anniversary at, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --oh, mazel tov. SHAPIRA: --in c--at, uh--no, no, at, at college. My college--uh, college-- FERNHEIMER: --still, (laughs) mazel tov. SHAPIRA: Yes, indeed. And, you know, you had to write a little synopsis of your life, or whatever, for a book, and all this kind of stuff. And, uh, bas--you know, this, this--I&#039 ; ve, I&#039 ; ve used it several times. My life has revolved around business and family, and family and business, and business is family. And I guess you can get the picture from, from the whole--from the way I&#039 ; ve constructed those words there. So, I was never much of a--now, my wife, Ellen, she is the quintessential joiner, and has been actively involved in-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- SHAPIRA: --in pretty much all the Jewish organizations in Louisville, uh, whether it&#039 ; s the federation, or what&#039 ; s--what it was called years ago, or whether it&#039 ; s, uh, uh, the Jewish hospital, where she&#039 ; s been a trustee ; or, well, today, of what&#039 ; s--and, and, and, and in broader community kind of organizations where she&#039 ; s been a trustee of the Speed Museum, and a variety of Hosparus--uh, she was a trustee, or a trustee, or a member of the board of that organization. And any number of other similar kinds of activities. Today she&#039 ; s a, a member of the ballet board. So, she was the joiner. She was the member of the family who sort of represented everything, uh, uh--who represented the family in, in both Jewish and--or community organizations. FERNHEIMER: So, so she, she serves as the public face for--if you will, (laughs) in that-- SHAPIRA: --sort of, yes. FERNHEIMER: Um, um, you talk about business and family, family and business, feeds--and, and how each one feeds into the other. And I&#039 ; m gonna steer you back to business here in a little bit, but I want to ask one more question about this relationship with family and business. Um, these family meals, right? You talk about a, a Friday-night dinner, or a Sabbath dinner, maybe, if you will. So, did business bleed into Sabbath dinner, or was there a kind of obser--uh, observance of however you define it, of Sabbath-- SHAPIRA: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --or was it just impossible to keep it out because everyone was involved in it? SHAPIRA: You used the best word: impossible. (Fernheimer laughs) Look, now, again, the bro--the, the five brothers-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --very close. You know, they, they worked very hard. They, they would meet on Sunday mornings down at the offices, down here on Main Street. I&#039 ; d go sometimes with them, as well. And they&#039 ; d discuss what happened during the week, you know, from things that are maybe thirty-thousand-foot-view kinds of things, to the most minutia of details that you could ever want to imagine. And, um, it was must part of their DNA. It was part of what they did. And, again, for them, it was business and family, and family and business. And that, you know, transmitted to me, as well. Uh, so, to--so, the--to answer, it&#039 ; s impossible, during those dinners, not to have, uh, business conversation. Uh, you may want to get into this a bit more later. And today, that tradition is continued on, uh, because--well, you&#039 ; re gonna interview, I know, my daughter, Kate-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah-- SHAPIRA: --and my son, Andy, is involved in the business, as well, and my son-in-law. And, um, we don&#039 ; t get together every Friday night for dinners. But whenever we&#039 ; re together, whether it&#039 ; s by the pool in, in the afternoon, on a Sunday, or wherever--it might be somebody&#039 ; s birthday, the--it seems like, more often than not, you know, we sort of jokingly say it, those, um, kinds of activities morph into some conversation about our businesses. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. I--so, we started this kind of line of questions talking about networks, and the social network that led to your wife. And even before I kind of interrupted you to bring you back to the family, you were starting to talk about those distribution networks. So-- SHAPIRA: --sure-- FERNHEIMER: --and I hope you&#039 ; re--you&#039 ; ll follow my, my jumbled, uh, line of questioning a little bit, and, um--and talk a little bit more about those distribution networks. I know, uh, in your interview for the Kentucky Bourbon Tales Project, you talk about just how important those networks are, and how those distribution networks helped you grow the business. Could you talk a little bit more about that? SHAPIRA: Sure, well, uh, the industry&#039 ; s structured--coming out of Prohibition and to this today--as a three-tier system. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: So, the only way that you can--in the United States, at least, the only way that one can get their products to market is to go through this system. Uh, and that means the three tiers are suppliers--in other words, producers-- FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: --or the importers of a product from abroad. We would be a supplier. We produce our products-. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. SHAPIRA: We manufacture them. We bottle them. And then, we ship them out to the second tier, who are distributors or wholesalers, if you will. And they&#039 ; re on a local basis--you know, every state has several different ones, and they generally cover the state, uh, in the respective states from one end of the state to the other. And what they do, then they sell to the third tier, which is your retail stores or bars and restaurants and whatever. So that&#039 ; s the three-tier system along the way. So, the relations that were--well, that are--that you build up, and particularly in the early days, the relationships that you built up were hugely important in the ability to get--to have access to the market. Because unless you had a distributor who was really interested in wanting to sell your brands, access to the market was considerably more difficult and, for some, virtually impossible to obtain. So, you know, developing these relations with the distributors around the country by doing the right thing--by providing good products at reasonable prices ; uh, helping with merchandising and marketing ; and providing the concepts for the brands and brand, brand platforms for marketing and merchandising--were all really important in building these relationships. Most of all of these distributors around the country at that time were very much independent ; uh, very much, uh, involved in their communities ; and all privately owned. These were not publicly held companies that you were doing business with. So there were--there were lots of family relationships between our family and our distributors&#039 ; families around the country. And that&#039 ; s sort of how you d--how that business was built. So, for the--for the first number of years, they were critically important. They continue to be critically important. But, uh, they apparently liked what we were doing, and how we conducted ourselves, and the familial relationships between everyone. And then, um--and they kept asking us, as our business was built to this national distribution network, to, &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t you bring more products to us?&quot ; So, along about the middle part of the sixties, there were, first of all, the--there were some chan--lots of changes in the industry-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --as other kinds of spirits started to take hold in the market, whether it was vodka or gin or the rise of rums and whatever. So you could see that, uh, diversification and, um, broadening your portfolio were a--were really important things to get done. And so, that&#039 ; s what happened. So, really fast forwarding a whole lot of activity, um, through a lot of internal product development and a lot of brand acquisitions over the years, we&#039 ; ve broadly diversified the product line going through the same channels of distribution that we had done since the very earliest days, but broadened the whole portfolio of products that we sell. And today it&#039 ; s really a very broad portfolio of products cutting across virtually every distilled-spirit category that you could imagine in the industry. And we sort of jokingly say we sell everything from 110-proof, uh, bourbon whiskeys to root-beer schnapps, and just about everything in between. (Fernheimer laughs) that&#039 ; s sort of true, actually. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, you talk about the importance of those family connections, those family relationships. To what extent do you think the family relationships that the brothers built in those outlying rural towns helped to create, un, some of the infrastructure for those relationships to--as they transitioned into more, uh, of the effort in the--in the bourbon industry? SHAPIRA: Well, I think it was--I don&#039 ; t know that--specifically, that I could--that, that I would know that. But it was the--those--more importantly, doing the right thing. Uh, uh, you know, just doing the right thing. You know, that&#039 ; s right, being a mensch. Got it? FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Got it. SHAPIRA: Uh, just doing the right thing. Uh, sure, you know, you can discuss your point of view with a customer, a distributor that might have--that we might--we may have had different ideas for merchandising something that our customer--but eventu--but, but to do it in the right way. You know, every meeting doesn&#039 ; t have to be an argument. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: It&#039 ; s a discussion. And I think that was the overall mentality of the family over the course of many years. And that was the critical part of developing these relationships. FERNHEIMER: So, these, these ideas, these values that you&#039 ; re talking about--being a mensch, which, for anyone who&#039 ; s--doesn&#039 ; t know the Yiddish, it, it means just being a, a regular kind of great old person-- SHAPIRA: --well, well, it means--it means-- FERNHEIMER: --with good values. SHAPIRA: --well, uh, to me, it means--meaning doing the right thing. FERNHEIMER: Doing the right thing, ethical. Uh, the emphasis on being open to discussion and having--not always having a, a, a, a vitriolic argument, but a, a pro--a back-and-forth. These are some of the kinds of values that people might say are traditional Jewish values. Um, but, but you don&#039 ; t see the word Jewish too much in, in transcripts of, of interviews with you. Um, I wonder if you could talk about that sort of subt--that nuanced, uh, way some of these values filter in. SHAPIRA: I&#039 ; m not sure if I quite got the--uh, uh, quite get what you&#039 ; re seeking here on the--on the--this question. FERNHEIMER: I guess, so, you, you talk about these distribution networks and-- SHAPIRA: --um-hm-- FERNHEIMER: --and how you work with the consumers, and, and go back and forth. And this--you know, you talk about your parents not really having Talmudic, uh, knowledge. Um, but the kind of values you&#039 ; re talking about might be what a lot of people would associate with the Talmud itself. That sort of discussion of back-and-forth, and, and other people might discuss those as sort of, broadly speaking, more Jewish values. SHAPIRA: Oh. FERNHEIMER: Being a mensch. If you want to summarize all of Judaism, right? Just be a mensch. Um, but that doesn&#039 ; t--that doesn&#039 ; t come out in explicit ways all the time. I guess let me ask it in a really concrete way. Um, when you go through the tasting room, right, at the Heritage Center-- SHAPIRA: --um-hm-- FERNHEIMER: --and if you look up in the beams, and you pay attention, you see two big Magen Davids. SHAPIRA: Oh, right, yes. FERNHEIMER: --right? SHAPIRA: And you&#039 ; re talking about in Bardstown? FERNHEIMER: Yeah, and it&#039 ; s real subtle. And if you don&#039 ; t look up, you miss it. And it&#039 ; s not---it&#039 ; s not plastered all over the, the story of, of Heaven H--of Heaven Hill. So I wonder if you could talk about the sort of subtleties in the ways that those values maybe seep into how the business goes, or how, how you&#039 ; ve taken it in your leadership of the business? SHAPIRA: Well, I don&#039 ; t that I--(laughs) I don&#039 ; t know that the subtleties of Jewish culture influenced the way we present ourselves through the community-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- SHAPIRA: --or the, um, industry, or whatever. I think, you know, we feel like--that, you know, everybody is staunchly understanding of the Jewish heritage of the family. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: Uh, I don&#039 ; t know that, uh--I, I think that--uh, I think the view is that one--uh, that, that you don&#039 ; t have to wear that on your sleeve. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: You don&#039 ; t have to, um, uh--if you--if, if, uh--you, you just do what you want to do based upon the values, uh, that you hold-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --both corporate values and personal values. And if you&#039 ; re Jewish--which we are, obviously--uh, that just--that&#039 ; s just all part of it. It&#039 ; s just being--today, it&#039 ; s really just being about a good person. And if Jewish values are all part of that--the history, the tradition, the--as I say, the generation-from-generation aspect-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --that just--it&#039 ; s, like, just a part of your DNA. You don&#039 ; t really think about it so much. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: I mean, I, I, you know--I--the--that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s about the easiest way I can say it. FERNHEIMER: That&#039 ; s just so, so much part of it that you don&#039 ; t have to talk about it. SHAPIRA: Right, it, it--exactly. We--you know it&#039 ; s there. It&#039 ; s not like after we need reminding that we&#039 ; re Jewish, you know? It&#039 ; s not--it&#039 ; s not--that&#039 ; s not an issue. FERNHEIMER: So, uh, to follow up a little bit on, on that space. Can you tell me about what, what--uh, a little bit about the decisions or the discussions that went into the creation of the space, uh, at the center, with the--with the stars in the--in the ceiling? (both laugh) SHAPIRA: That, I believe--I did not know anything about it. FERNHEIMER: Oh, it--really? SHAPIRA: I&#039 ; ll just tell ya. And what--I said, &quot ; Where did this come from?&quot ; And I think it was a collaboration between my cousin, Harry Sh--my first cousin, Harry Shapira, who is involved in our business, as well, and the--and the builder, or the, uh, contractor. And, uh, he said, &quot ; I wonder if we could do something like this, very subtly.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s--and one day I was over there and said, &quot ; Where did this come from?&quot ; Because it was certainly not--it was certainly not as we developed the plans for the Visitor Center we said, &quot ; Oh, we want to have something in there that reflects the Jewish tradition of the business.&quot ; And--but it was just--it was--that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s sort of what happened. FERNHEIMER: So what was your reaction when you saw it-- SHAPIRA: --I said, &quot ; Oh, my.&quot ; FERNHEIMER: --or when you learned about it? SHAPIRA: I said, &quot ; How--&quot ; --or w--I said, &quot ; Well, this--&quot ; --it--uh, I thought--I said, &quot ; This is really an interesting thing. It, it will be interesting to see who notices and who doesn&#039 ; t notice this.&quot ; FERNHEIMER: And does it come up? Do people notice on the tours? SHAPIRA: --no, uh, uh, very, very rarely. Unh-uh, very rarely. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Um, so that--that&#039 ; s an in--interesting kind of insight into, uh, some of those decisions about how the story gets told there, both in the Heritage Center and in the Evan Williams Experience. SHAPIRA: --that&#039 ; s about as subtle as you can get in telling the story. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) Yeah. Um, is there any other way, or are there other ways that, um, your, your background--um, Jewish background has influence Heaven Hill&#039 ; s interest in story-telling, or the story of bourbon, both in the Heritage Center and in the Evan Williams Experience? Um-- SHAPIRA: --no, we&#039 ; re pre--it&#039 ; s pretty consistent. You know, what I&#039 ; ve mentioned earlier on is pretty much the story that we tell, which is, of course, the true story. Uh, so, yeah, no, I would--I would say probably not. FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, as you know, I told you a little bit about the project JT and I are working on, and we&#039 ; re working on. And we&#039 ; re interested in these--in, in human stories, um, behind bourbon production. Uh, specifically with Jewish people, women, African Americans, Native Americans, um, folks who aren&#039 ; t traditionally in front and center of the iconic image of bourbon. Uh, and I wonder if you have any anecdotes that you know about, that you think deserve some wider attention. SHAPIRA: Like? FERNHEIMER: Like, uh, stories involving folks you wouldn&#039 ; t normally expect to be in bourbon--in bourbon. And you may not, and that&#039 ; s okay, too. I&#039 ; m just asking a broad swath. SHAPIRA: --well, what about--yeah, let me ask you. Well, what about wives? FERNHEIMER: You--uh, bingo. SHAPIRA: What about--what about that? I mean, the--I mean, normally you wouldn&#039 ; t expect somebody&#039 ; s wife to be terribly involved and understand the--sort of the nuances of the business or whatever. But, but, I mean, I can talk about that from personal experience. Well, I can talk about it for my--for my mother, as well. FERNHEIMER: Please do. SHAPIRA: My dad and my--well, my dad and my mother, they would always--they would go to any number of industry-wide meetings. And, in those days, uh, those who attended generally brought their wives. That doesn&#039 ; t happen so much today, but in those days it did. The wives were almost--I don&#039 ; t know if I&#039 ; d use the word expected to go, but they went. So, so my mother, uh, uh, made friends with the wives of all of our distributors. And, again, it goes back to that--those relationship-building aspects of this. And, and that was really with people from all across the country. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: And it became not just the--so, then, at some point, it morphed into, uh, not just seeing those people at, uh--at a major, uh, event for all of the industry, but if you were traveling on a vacation to Albuquerque, New Mexico, you&#039 ; d call up the--our distributor there and say, &quot ; Hey, let&#039 ; s all go out for dinner. You know, we haven&#039 ; t see each other. We can catch up with the kids,&quot ; and all of this kind of thing. Or, &quot ; We can go to a ballgame,&quot ; or whatever. And that&#039 ; s where all of that really went on. And so, I mean, she was actively involved in understanding what the business was about. Now you talk about passing it from a generation down, uh--and, and I don&#039 ; t whether she--uh, uh, my mother didn&#039 ; t pass this along to, to my wife, Ellen. But today, Ellen is hugely involved in understanding all of the--well, the business has changed. But she understands the--she says--she takes people through our Visitor Center down here in Louisville, frequently. Uh, I&#039 ; ll be on a panel discussion in the industry. She said, &quot ; You know, I think I could have done just what you did there. I know enough.&quot ; And--because she understands the business. She said, &quot ; I can--&quot ; --she can take people through our distillery-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --and know what the mash--how the mash works, and how the ingre--the ingredients, and all the other things, and what the--what part the barrel is involved with in making the product. She can tell you all of these things. And, um--and she knows--well, she doesn&#039 ; t know as many today, but she knows the names of pretty much all of our distributors all around the country. Um, she&#039 ; ll know the ones that, you know, are, are easier to deal with than others. Um-- FERNHEIMER: --(laughs) of course. SHAPIRA: And, and when our sales force was much smaller, but when it was still maybe twenty-five or thirty people--it&#039 ; s a whole lot more than that today--but she knew every one of our--of our sales people-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --what their territory was, whether--well, they--whether the--it was a great expanding territory, one that needed a whole lot more work. She knew all these things. And, um--so, well, today, when we have those family dinners and the subject of the business comes up, she&#039 ; s right in there saying, &quot ; Oh, I have an opinion about this.&quot ; And she does. She--and a lot of--and she&#039 ; s quite valuable with regard to all of that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, can you think of any--uh, uh, an idea or a concept that sort of bubbled up over one of those dinners, that came from, from--I mean, the first--I, I&#039 ; m delighted-- SHAPIRA: --well, uh-- FERNHEIMER: --that the first place you went is to the wives and to the women who were involved. Uh, is there anything specific that you can recall, that came specifically from them at-- SHAPIRA: --well, I, I, I can tell you more generally than specific, but Ellen&#039 ; s, uh, background is, um, in counseling. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: And she&#039 ; s a career counselor, and, uh--and has been for any number of years. This--so we were talking at one, uh, particular--I don&#039 ; t know if it was at dinner or where it was. But anyway, we were talking--uh, at the restaurant, we were talking about something having to do with our human-resources area. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: And she came up with some really interesting ideas with regard to that. Uh, &quot ; Why don&#039 ; t you consider this? Why don&#039 ; t you consider that?&quot ; FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: So, that--I mean, that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s sort of how it--how she&#039 ; s, she&#039 ; s been actively involved even though she&#039 ; s not on our payroll. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: Yeah, yeah, that&#039 ; s exactly the kind of story that, that I was thinking about. I mean, you mentioned being swaddled and brought to the bottling line, which-- SHAPIRA: --that&#039 ; s true. FERNHEIMER: I loved that story, because it tells you--it, it tells me a couple of different things. One, that, you know, your mom, of course, was right there with your dad at the plant, uh, watching. And, and there you were, from the beginning, involved, um, um, from both. (laughs) SHAPIRA: --well, you--yeah, well you have to, uh, understand, I grew up in the business. Uh, and, I mean, I heard, early on, whiskey talk at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. When I was a kid, we played on the property. It was, you know, a hundred--several hundred acres, and there we&#039 ; d take our BB guns and our rifles down to, to the farm area where they&#039 ; d have it, and we&#039 ; d go hunting or whatever it might be. Uh, and I remember the--you know, when we had f--uh, several very severe floods, and-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --uh, when, when, uh, everybody wanted to--it was--we--the facility was--at that time, was right over a large creek. And when you had some sort of really severe rain, the--it was subject to some flooding. Well, one time it was really rather severe. And, uh, I remember one of the, uh--my father wasn&#039 ; t all that tall. He was about five-foot-six or so. And, uh--and, and sort of thin. And, uh, he said--he asked one of the people. He said, &quot ; What do you think is going on over there?&quot ; He said, &quot ; How deep--how deep do you think the water is?&quot ; Somebody at the off--in the facility was, was out there--I was out there at that time at the water thinking, Well, what&#039 ; s going on here? Couldn&#039 ; t have been more than maybe ten or eleven years old. And one of the people said, &quot ; Let me put you on my back, Mr. Shapira.&quot ; Not me. This was my dad. (Fernheimer laughs) &quot ; And take you out there so we can see what&#039 ; s going on.&quot ; And they went--waded out into the water. I remember all of that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Are there other ways that the mothers and wives were involved, other than family dinners or coming around? It sounds like there was a key, uh-- SHAPIRA: --well, I think it&#039 ; s in that relationship-building. That was the--that&#039 ; s huge. That&#039 ; s--that--that&#039 ; s huge. That&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s, uh, really important. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, and, and that&#039 ; s one thing that you, you keep coming back to. And I think-- SHAPIRA: --but the other part of it is, look, everybody&#039 ; s working all the time. There&#039 ; s lot of travel and whatever, even to this day. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: And so, you&#039 ; ve gone quite a bit. So, you know, the support that everybody gives for, hey, I understand why everybody&#039 ; s gone three days a week this week, and two days a week next week. And, you know, my last--last weekend I almost--uh, well, to--really, last weekend, I was away all weekend at a con--at a--at a--at a--an event that I had to go to. Everybody understands all of that. So it&#039 ; s the support mechanism for those who are working hard and doing all the things that, that are necessary. That&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s a big thing. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Um, yeah, these relationships are, are, uh, key. Uh, the key facets, it&#039 ; s--uh, um, you keep coming back to that dynamic of the relationships with vendors and distributors. And, and you know I recently had the chance to speak a little bit with Robert Lipman of Lipman Brothers. And I wonder if you can speak a little bit more into that relationship be--between distributors, distillers ; how, how families--how, how back--a shared background kind of fits into solidifying some of those? You talked a little bit how the wives could help work in these, uh, industry settings by solidifying some of those relationships. Um-- SHAPIRA: --well, you know, we, as a company--well, we bring, we believe, a different perspective to the industry. We&#039 ; re quintessential family-owned and -operated. Uh, many if not most of our competitors are either foreign-owned or large, publicly held companies. Uh, they bring a completely different perspective to the business than what we do. And, you know, from the--and to--and today, the business has changed a whole lot. There&#039 ; s been a whole lot of consolidation and lots of other things going on. But all of the d--all of our distributors are still family-owned. They&#039 ; re larger businesses because-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --there&#039 ; s only about four large distributors remaining in the United States today. There&#039 ; s some smaller ones, but not very many. And, um, all of those four businesses are all privately--four distribution businesses are all family-owned companies-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- SHAPIRA: --that existed from the earliest days, but they grew and, and bought a lot of the other individual companies. But as I said before-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --everybody in this industry starting out was privately owned, independent, local, and you were dealing with those fifty different states. You&#039 ; re dealing with fifty different entities for which it is very important to develop the relationship with. And, uh, the wives were always helpful in that, on some--one, one side of it. But really, the, the majority of it, from the day-to-day operating business, was to develop those relationships with each of these distributors around the country. Obviously, some are better than others. On the--you know, you can&#039 ; t have--it&#039 ; s not perfection everywhere. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SHAPIRA: Um, and it just so happened, in, in not all the instances, but in many instances, a lot of those distributor were of, uh, Jewish owners. Really, a lot--I mean, a very large amount. Uh, and, in fact, today, of the four largest--those four sort of semi--national or semi-national distributors that exist today, uh, three of them have Jewish background and Jewish people still own the companies. And, um, are actually involved in the day-to-day management of the company. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SHAPIRA: I don&#039 ; t know if that makes any difference in terms of the business or whatever. It&#039 ; s just--it&#039 ; s just a fact. It&#039 ; s just sort of interesting. And maybe there&#039 ; s some degree--commonality in whatever it might be. FERNHEIMER: For the purposes of the interview, would you mind naming those, uh, other family-owned-- SHAPIRA: --sure, there&#039 ; s--uh, well the, the largest ones are Southern Wine and Spirits. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: That&#039 ; s owned by the, uh, Chaplin family. FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that? SHAPIRA: Uh, C-H-A-P-L-I-N. FERNHEIMER: Okay. SHAPIRA: U, the other one--and the two of them--uh, the other one was Glazer Distributing Company, owned by, uh, the Glazer family in--out of Texas. Actually, those two are merging, though, uh, today. Uh, you have, uh, what is a, a business called Breakthrough Beverage, uh, which is, um, pro--mostly owned by the Merinoff family out of New York. FERNHEIMER: Merinoff? SHAPIRA: Merinoff. FERNHEIMER: M-- SHAPIRA: --M-E-R-I-N-O-F-F. You might want to check. There may be two Rs. Anyway--and then the--uh, a company called Republic National Distributing Company that&#039 ; s owned by several Jewish families, uh, um, one in--on in Georgia, and another segment out of, uh, Texas--Dreeben--D-R-E-E-B-E-N. They&#039 ; re out of Texas, and, um, the Davis family out of, um, Atlanta, Georgia. FERNHEIMER: So-- SHAPIRA: --so, I mean, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s an interesting thing. And I--and it--and, and the Southern company who has bought any number of distributors over the last twenty years to be the largest of that group. I mean, for example, here in Kentucky, our--which was one of our first distributors, of course, uh, there was a family here whose--who we&#039 ; ve worked with now for, uh, uh, two generations--um, the Levitch family here in Louisville started a company or bought a company right after Prohibition ended, was one of our first customers. And, uh, the person who&#039 ; s in charge of--they were bought by Southern Wine and Spirits. But, uh, the--one of the members of the Levitch family works--uh, really has an important executive position at Southern Wine and Spirits here in Kentucky. And we&#039 ; re with--you know, talk to him frequently. So, these are, like, multi-generational kind of things. We have several distributors where we have three generations of family members: um, the group that worked with my dad-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --the group that I&#039 ; ve worked and sort of grew up with, and their kids are the kids that, um, kids--so many kids. (laughs) That their third generation is actually involved in the business, work with Andy and Allan and, uh, Kate. FERNHEIMER: Kate. SHAPIRA: So, it&#039 ; s pretty interesting, really. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, those are some very--I mean, when you start talking about two-, three-generation-deep, uh, family connection, that&#039 ; s a very strong, uh, network of, of ties. Um-- SHAPIRA: --well, remember, this is, uh--this is a pretty young industry-- FERNHEIMER: --yeah-- SHAPIRA: --relatively speaking. We&#039 ; re all, you know--we said, oh, we, well, celebrated our eightieth year last year. Well, the whole industry pretty much celebrated their eightieth-- FERNHEIMER: --right. SHAPIRA: --because Prohibition ended in 1933. People were up and running maybe &#039 ; 34. So that would be eighty-one years. But in &#039 ; 35, like us, that&#039 ; s eighty years. So, almost everybody, well, got in business during that period of time. FERNHEIMER: Uh, of course, you know, over the course of the years, there&#039 ; s been, uh--the--a lot of folks have, have paid interest in (laughs)--paid attention to that curious fact of, of many different Jewish families involved. And, and I wonder if you could speak a little bit to how those close ties sometimes, um, uh, call negative attention. Uh, certainly there was Henry Ford&#039 ; s article that, that played on, uh, some of the anti-Semitic allegations about control and connection. And I wonder if you might, um, talk about the--how these--how these relationships sometimes play in or with some of those, uh, allegations that have been made over the years--anti-Semitic alle--allegations? SHAPIRA: Well, uh, you know, look. You know, you know, you&#039 ; re gonna have people who are--uh, who question the Jewish religion. That&#039 ; s f--that&#039 ; s nothing new. FERNHEIMER: No. (laugh) SHAPIRA: That&#039 ; s been going on--really? It&#039 ; s, uh--(laughs) I mean, you&#039 ; re talking about thousands of years. But, you know--you--I know you&#039 ; re gonna find this really strange to say--for me to say this, but growing up as the only Jewish family--so, one or two--in a small town--a small, rural town in Central Kentucky, uh, I never experienced one single solitary day, event, comment, or anything-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --that would be remotely considered, to me at least, anti-Semitic. Just never happened. So, I, I certainly understand the history over the course of many-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --um, of, of, many millenniums. Uh, I never experienced any of that. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: And whether it was--like I said, well, growing up in Bardstown ; whether it was living here in Louisville ; whether it was living in, uh, uh--whether it was working in New York ; or, or at sch--at colleges ; or whatever, I, I just never experienced anything like that. Uh, I always felt that if you do the right thing, you&#039 ; re gonna be accepted by the community. Now, obviously, I&#039 ; m wrong in certain instances, because that does happen in certain places. I guess it still does, and, and, you know, look what goes on in Europe even today. Uh, I never experienced any of that, period, zero, zilch. FERNHEIMER: Hmm. Yeah, yeah, that--it, it, it--I--you--I know you, you say you think I&#039 ; d be surprised, but during the course of these interviews--the Kentucky--the Jewish Kentucky interviews, it--it&#039 ; s a common story, uh, that, that, that we&#039 ; ve heard of folks growing up in these different parts of the state and not actually having any kind of experience of that--of the anti-Semitism. SHAPIRA: Well, that--I mean, it&#039 ; s good--that&#039 ; s great to hear, of course. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. SHAPIRA: But, uh, you know, again, you, you&#039 ; d--it, it--you can participate and be a part of the--of the Jewish community, and be a part of the broader community, as well-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --with really easy of access and, uh, acceptance of, uh, ideas. All those things, really, like I said. I mean, I, I get what you&#039 ; re driving at. I have not seen that. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I&#039 ; m-- SHAPIRA: I know--I know it exists in certain places. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, I&#039 ; m gonna switch gears back to those stories. You were talking about how the wives always knew which, which distributors or which, uh, sellers were easier to deal with and which ones weren&#039 ; t. I wonder if you would be willing to share--of course, without names, necessarily--but some of the more colorful stories that you&#039 ; ve encountered of personalities. The--obviously, JT and I are, are, are writing a fictional graphic novel, so we&#039 ; re, we&#039 ; re looking for some really rich-- SHAPIRA: --well-- FERNHEIMER: --juicy stories. SHAPIRA: --I--that, that, I mean, this is an interesting story. This isn&#039 ; t--it wasn&#039 ; t--my, my dad was involved in--there was a very large, uh--one of the larger companies in the industry. This is some years ago. And the person who ran this was, um, known to be, um, just a--an--on the outer edge of the envelope in terms of personality and (Fernheimer laughs), uh, just a bigger-than--bigger-than-life kind of personality. And, uh--and was sort of the, the owner, tyrant, uh, chief cook and bottle washer of a very large company--supplier company in the industry. My dad was invited to, um--an eccentric as it could possibly be. And, and he was the kind of person who would call up somebody and--at two o&#039 ; clock in the morning and say, &quot ; I need to have this answer by six o&#039 ; clock tomorrow morning,&quot ; uh, for a particular thing. And the person would--if he didn&#039 ; t have it properly right, it would be, &quot ; You&#039 ; re out. You&#039 ; re done.&quot ; Anyway, he was invited to this per--uh, to a party at this person&#039 ; s house--and, uh, in a tony area of the eastern part of the United States. And he went, and, uh--with some friends. And, um, the person who had the party never, never, uh, showed up. Anyway, he was--he was--the--they--everybody was milling around or whatever, and no one knew where the person who was giving the party--where he was. So, along about eleven o&#039 ; clock, the person comes down this big, broad staircase, and--in a pair of pajamas and a robe (Fernheimer laughs), he looked and said, &quot ; What&#039 ; s everybody doing here? I&#039 ; m going to sleep. Good-bye.&quot ; Uh, that was--yeah, those--that was a outlandish kind of personality, but that actually happened. So, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s just those kinds of--those happened more than once. I&#039 ; ve--I was, uh, in Paris, and, uh, a distributor of ours, uh, at a meeting--and there was a bunch of distributors there, as well--and I saw one of our distributors, like, aimlessly sort of working down the Champs-Élysées, I&#039 ; m thinking, like he was lost. So I went over to him and I said, I said, &quot ; What are--what are you--what are you doing?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, I don&#039 ; t know where I am. I am lost. And I have no money.&quot ; Now, this was a very--pretty wealthy individual. (Fernheimer laughs) &quot ; I have no money.&quot ; I said, &quot ; What are you talking about, you have no money?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; ve--I didn&#039 ; t know how to get the French francs.&quot ; This was the French francs at that time, not euros. &quot ; And, uh, so I have no money, and I don&#039 ; t know where I can get a cab, or anything. And if I do, I don&#039 ; t know any French as--&quot ; I said, &quot ; Well, (laughs) what do you want me--you want me to just leave you here, or do you want me--?&quot ; So, we had to pile him into a cab and take him to his hotel and whatever. I mean, just--those were just odd things about, uh, sort of odd personalities in the industry. FERNHEIMER: Yeah, those were some good ones. (laughs) Um, any others? SHAPIRA: No, not even--they&#039 ; re not really--the, the--I mean, there&#039 ; s probably others that I&#039 ; ve thought about and they&#039 ; re--that are-- FERNHEIMER: --those are pretty good. Um, you talk about the art and mystery of making bourbon, and how that captures people&#039 ; s imagination. Can you tell us a little bit about what you think the art and mystery of bourbon is? SHAPIRA: The art and history? FERNHEIMER: Art and mystery? Art and mystery was one of the-- SHAPIRA: --oh, the, the art-- FERNHEIMER: --things that you said in an earlier interview. SHAPIRA: --yeah, okay, all right, yeah, the art--the art, yes, oh, sure. I could go to a cocktail party where I don&#039 ; t know anybody, and maybe the host introduced me to so-and-so. And they have a conversation. They said, &quot ; Now, what do you do, Mr. Shapira?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m involved in our family business. We, uh, uh, make, uh, American whiskeys and a lot of other distilled-spirit products.&quot ; They said--and as soon as I say that, I always get another question. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: It&#039 ; ll be about, &quot ; Well, how does it get from being a clear substance when it comes off the still to have that nice golden, uh, uh, brownish sort of coloring when it gets into the bottle?&quot ; &quot ; What is--what is the d--uh, the age difference--how does that age--do you actually have to age it all those years, or can you have some that&#039 ; s not a--&quot ; (Fernheimer laughs) If I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m Max Shapira, and I&#039 ; m involved in our family business. We make steel I-beams,&quot ; I imagine the next, uh, question was--would be--from the person would be, without a doubt will be, &quot ; Well, that--what kind of alloy do you use?&quot ; It would be, like, &quot ; How&#039 ; s the weather?&quot ; There&#039 ; s just something interesting and it--and it--about the, the--uh, how our products are made, because the tastes are different. The, uh--it&#039 ; s a--it&#039 ; s part of the social fabric of the country. You know, our products are made--this is a great industry to be in--when--and, sure, there&#039 ; s some abuse, and we certainly want to make certain that our products are consumed in a-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm. SHAPIRA: --in a highly social-responsible way. But when that h--occurs, on 98, 99, probably, percent of the times when alcoholic beverages are consumed, it&#039 ; s part of the--it&#039 ; s part of a--getting together with friends ; to having, you know--it&#039 ; s a relaxing with friends ; to celebrating the--a business deal ; celebrating a wedding. Uh, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s an act--you know, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s when people are having good times together as friends. Uh, it&#039 ; s a great business to be in, to add to that--to add to that enjoyment of life. And, uh, that, in and of itself, means--when people think about it, I said the products are interesting because, you know, they&#039 ; re always, well, I&#039 ; m always having a good time when, uh--when I&#039 ; m having a, a cocktail or a, a glass of wine, or beer, or whatever it might be. Be friends around the pool, whether--so they&#039 ; re interested in understanding, even more so today than it was years--uh, I mean, today, the millennial customers and consumers, they really want to know about history and heritage and tradition and what it&#039 ; s made out of, and what is the alcohol strengths? You know, what, what are the different recipes? And, and, again, this is a product that&#039 ; s been part of the United States history from the earliest days of the republic. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: And think about it: George Wash--uh, you know, there was--you had a lot of Scotch-Irishmen come over here, and they settled in various parts of the country. George Washington-- when he took office, one of the first things he had to do (coughs) was to, uh, send the militia out to Western Pennsylvania to quell the, uh, the, um, uh, farmers-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --who refused to pay the first federal-- FERNHEIMER: --the tax-- SHAPIRA: --excise taxes--the great Whiskey Rebellion. I think it was 1790, &#039 ; 89, &#039 ; 90, &#039 ; 90, somewhere around there. Um, so it&#039 ; s, been all--uh, part of that social fabric of the United States almost from day one. So there&#039 ; s history and, uh--and I--it&#039 ; s one of the few products in the United States that actually is solely a product of the United States, and cannot be made in other places around the world. A lot of it&#039 ; s through--because of various treaties and the trade, trade agreements we have. It can&#039 ; t be made--it--you cannot make bourbon and call it bourbon in Indonesia-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --or Ecuador or South Africa or the Czech Republic or whatever. So this, this uniqueness of America--it&#039 ; s part of Americana. This uniqueness of the process itself--remember, it&#039 ; s an all-natural product and process. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: It&#039 ; s not like we&#039 ; re putting in some, some, uh--something that--a preservative to make sure it doesn&#039 ; t spoil after it&#039 ; s been in a bottle for six months, or nine months, or a year and nine months, or ten years and nine months. So it&#039 ; s all about those things that are really positive characteristics: natural, history-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --uh, tradition, a broad range of tastes that are involved. So--though that--that&#039 ; s--I think that&#039 ; s one of those--this, this, uh--this--and m--that, that--which defines this industry so well. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Is there a--I always--uh, there&#039 ; s a question in there that I&#039 ; m trying to figure out how to formulate, which is that you mentioned that millennials and new customers are, are so interested in the history, and all the details about how it&#039 ; s made, and the alcohol strength and, and the, the different ingredients, and where it comes from, and the craft-ness of it. Um, and you talk about, in the past, how the--uh, not needing to wear Jewish-ness on your sleeve because it&#039 ; s so much part of the fabric. Do you imagine-- SHAPIRA: --this sounds like a complicated question here. (laughs) FERNHEIMER: --yeah, yeah, I&#039 ; m trying to formulate it in a simple way. But do you--do you imagine that there might be a, a--is there a marketing strategy, or is there a move to kind of play up the heritage and the, the Jewish aspects of the--of the family business to fit that kind of new niche, or, um, are there ways-- SHAPIRA: --unh-uh-- FERNHEIMER: --that, that, you know, as the industry has changed and the consumers have changed, that, that, that relationship to Judaism changes to? Maybe that&#039 ; s a better way to ask that question. SHAPIRA: Well, the--uh, uh, probably the answer would probably be--the--clearly, the answer would be, for us, no. FERNHEIMER: Okay. (laughs) SHAPIRA: But what--but that&#039 ; s the short answer. Uh, but the long narrative, uh, where you can bring some of that in, in a discussion, or if we&#039 ; re in front with--if we have our people, uh, in front of a consumer group for a bourbon dinner-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --of which we do hundreds of those, maybe thousands of those. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. SHAPIRA: Uh, if it&#039 ; s at a tasting of a flights of bourbon-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --and sort of the history of bourbon, or whatever, those will come through subtly. But I, I don&#039 ; t--I---there--there&#039 ; s no attempt to make it overtly, &quot ; Oh, and by the way, this was a Jewish business,&quot ; or whatever it might be. FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, the--my last and final question, which I like to end every interview with, is, is there anything that we didn&#039 ; t talk about, or that you would like to be part of this record? Or something that you think JT and I should know as we&#039 ; re crafting this mystical, magic, arty, fictional, female, uh, bourbon characters, um, that you&#039 ; d like to share? SHAPIRA: Hmm. We&#039 ; ve covered just about--I would say that, again, the emphasis on the personal aspect, the relationship-building, is one of the key pieces of the whole discussion process relating-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --to this industry. I think that, over the course of maybe the last ten or fifteen years, that some of that has been lost in this business-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- SHAPIRA: --where you particularly have had, uh, a giant, uh, international drinks companies try to make this about spreadsheets and divvying up, uh, zip codes to find fifty consumers who might be interested in a root-beer schnapps. (Fernheimer laughs) Uh, we, we do all that ourselves, but we haven&#039 ; t lost that, that, uh, relationship-building aspect of the business. We try to be consistent. I think some of the consistency in manpower and whatever from some of the other companies in the industry has been--it&#039 ; s just inconsistent, actually. You know, people call in on a distributor for six months or a year, and then move to someplace else, replaced by another person who has a whole new agenda and different sets of standards and identities and things that they want to foster. So I guess one of the big things is, is, is the maintenance of personal relationships as a hugely important aspect of whatever we do as a company, and whatever we do as individuals, as well. FERNHEIMER: And it--and that sounds like it&#039 ; s a--it&#039 ; s a shared labor of love, uh, of--as part of the family. SHAPIRA: Yeah, well, you know, it--the one thing that you didn&#039 ; t ask me is the next gen--about the next generation. Uh, everybody always asks me, &quot ; What&#039 ; s the biggest thing you&#039 ; ve ever done at Heaven Hill?&quot ; And they think, well, there&#039 ; s a, uh--they&#039 ; ll be thinking, well, it has to do with an acquisition they made or a brand they developed or a plant they opened or something like that. But the, the easiest thing to--and it&#039 ; s just--it--it&#039 ; s like a no-brainer for me. The biggest thing that I&#039 ; ve ever done is to get the next generation involved in this business-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --with the sharing the passion and interest and the work ethic that is necessary to make sure that the business prospers and moves forward in a--uh, in the future. And I don&#039 ; t really want to go into all of this but, uh, it&#039 ; s an interesting story exactly how this happened, because--and I think it&#039 ; s sort of interesting from a--just a general family-business kind of, uh, perspective. Uh, the one thing you can&#039 ; t do in wanting to perpetuate a business with family is to make s--the, the worst thing you can do is to say it&#039 ; s your familial duty to come back and be (Fernheimer laughs) in the business. But that happens more often than you&#039 ; d think. I think it happens with a great deal of regularity, in fact. Uh, so, in, in this particular instance, we had--of course we&#039 ; ve got the two children in--involved, and the son-in-law of--uh, and my son-in-law. And--but it didn&#039 ; t happen with such ease, because they both, after college and graduate school, had terrific jobs. Andy, my son, was on Wall Street, and was there for, like, twelve years, did exceptionally well. Kate, uh, after she got her MBA, uh, went to Procter &amp ; Gamble. Uh, her husband, Allan--son-in-law, is--went to Procter &amp ; Gamble, as well, uh, on the finance side of the business. Kate was on the marketing side of the business. And they were doing great, and the, the, the first group--Andy--I mean, not the first group--Kate and Allan, they had been there about eight years and they said--they&#039 ; d always thought it. You know, we would--whenever we&#039 ; d get together, we&#039 ; d talk about the business or whatever. But we didn&#039 ; t say, &quot ; Would you ever be interested?&quot ; I never wanted to put any pressure on them to do that. So it was just sort of the antithesis of putting pressure on. It was like no pressure to the standpoint of they called Ellen, uh, after about eight years when they were--said, &quot ; You know, we&#039 ; re thinking of doing--maybe doing some other things. Do you think Dad even wants us in the business, &#039 ; cause he never asks whether we&#039 ; d be interested in coming back? And is that by design?&quot ; And so, Ellen said, &quot ; I know he would be.&quot ; Uh, and so, she brokered that deal. Uh, Andy, who was in, uh, New York for, uh--well--actually Chicago, Charlotte, and, finally, New York. But he was in New York for quite some period of time, loved being there. He was traveling all over the country and doing all sorts of things, and doing extremely well. And, um, he f--finally said, &quot ; You know, you know, New York is fine when you&#039 ; re in a certain lifestyle-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: --and we have kids. But, you know, as you get a little bit older, you know, living in the city is a little bit different.&quot ; And he had always been interested in the business as well. But, again, I never said anything--anything. No, so, (laughs)--so he--when he came back, and it was--we all worked it out. He did it also through Ellen. He, uh--we, uh--after about, uh, six months, he came into my office. He said, &quot ; Dad,&quot ; he said, &quot ; You know, I thought I was traveling a lot when I was in--uh, at, uh--in New York, at Bank of America.&quot ; He said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m traveling more now than I was traveling there.&quot ; It&#039 ; s sort of like a repeat of what he said, but he l--but he loves it. The--I mean, so, to get the kids to come back, to have them have separate areas of distinct interest-- FERNHEIMER: --um-hm-- SHAPIRA: -that doesn&#039 ; t happen very often either. That&#039 ; s just luck. Uh, and to then--to--for them to be as passionate and as interested, when the days are never too long, the projects are never too involved, and, uh, to want to grow and grow and grow--that&#039 ; s an unusual thing. I&#039 ; m really lucky on that standpoint. FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Well, thank you so much for the opportunity to meet with you, and to ask you some of these questions today. I have learned a tremendous amount, and I&#039 ; m really grateful, and I&#039 ; m really glad that you shared those stories, um, that I didn&#039 ; t ask you about. Because some of them are-- SHAPIRA: --okay (??)-- FERNHEIMER: --are--the more--the more exciting gems--of course, that&#039 ; s always the way it is. That&#039 ; s why I like-- SHAPIRA: --right (??)-- FERNHEIMER: --that question. SHAPIRA: My pleasure. FERNHEIMER: Um, uh, thank you again. SHAPIRA: Okay, good. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh154_jk026_shapira_ohm.xml 2016oh154_jk026_shapira_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh154_jk026_shapira_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Max Shapira, May 24, 2016 Description An account of the resource Max Shapira was born in Louisville, Kentucky. He grew up in Bardstown, Kentucky, where his family's company, Heaven Hill Brands, is located. Shapira lived in Bardstown until he was a junior in high school when he moved to Louisville. His grandparents had five sons who came of age in the mid-1920's and opened multiple general stores in various small towns across Kentucky. One of the stores was operated by his father, Ed Shapira and located in Bardstown. Ed was one of the founders of Old Heaven Hill Distillery, the Shapira family’s original bourbon business. In the forties, most of Shapira's family moved to Louisville where an office on 528 Main Street served as the headquarters and warehouse for the general stores. Today that building houses their Evan William Bourbon Experience business. Max Shapira describes how his family kept a very kosher home growing up. Shapira notes that although the Bardstown community was not Jewish, this diversity did not change his mentality about his faith or others and that, if anything, it broadened it. He describes his parent’s relationship with Judaism and how he met his wife, Ellen Hirsch, through his younger sister, Ellen Shapira. He details the Jewish influences in Heaven Hill business practices, particularly conducting business ethically by always “doing the right thing.” He explains the Jewish heritage of Heaven Hill is subtly illustrated in the design of the Bourbon Heritage Center, part of Heaven Hill Distilleries and the Kentucky Bourbon Trail. Max Shapira then discusses the bourbon industry more specifically, touching on women’s roles as well as the craft of distilling and its integral role in American culture. In his closing remarks, Max Shapira emphasizes the importance of personal relationship-building within the bourbon industry and proclaims his biggest accomplishment at Heaven Hill to be involving the next generation and his family in this industry to ensure a prosperous future. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh154_jk026 Subject The topic of the resource Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Family-owned business enterprises. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Bardstown Jews--Kentucky--Bardstown. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Louisville (Ky.) Families. Alcohol industry. Bardstown (Ky.) Bourbon whiskey Distillation. Distilleries--Kentucky Distillers. Religion Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/370afa8ceb06c010e45dadc7916031b0.jpeg 069fec250cb26f462128853d920fcd33 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice W. Fernheimer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kate Shapira Latts Interview Keyword Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Holidays. Family histories. Childhood Jewish children OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh153_jk025 Interview with Kate Shapira Latts, May 24, 2016 2016oh153_jk025 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Alcohol industry. Bourbon whiskey Distillation. Distilleries--Kentucky Distillers. Family-owned business enterprises. Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Women in the whiskey industry Women--Employment. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Holidays. Family histories. Childhood Jewish children Kate Shapira Latts Janice W. Fernheimer 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253339721&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Growing up with the family business, Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Hello. Um, uh, today--for official purposes, today is May 24th, uh, 2016. My name is Janice Fernheimer. Kate Shapira Latts discusses her family and growing up in a family business. Her family runs Heaven Hill, and from an early age Latts was very proud and interested in her family's company. The family business was prevalent in all aspects of the Shapiras' lives. Kate conducted childhood science experiments on the alcohol yields of several types of wheat. Latts was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1971. Her mother is Ellen Shapira, her father is Max Shapira, and her brother is Andy Shapira. Andy Shapira ; Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Chattanooga (Tenn.) ; Chattanooga, Tennessee ; Civil War ; Ellen Shapira ; Family businesses ; Florida ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Max Shapira ; Paramount Foods ; University of Kentucky ; West Coast Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Childhood ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 38.244, -85.781 17 Heaven Hills Distilleries, Inc. 480 Jewish identity in childhood I wonder, can you talk a little bit about the ways that Jewishness figured into your life growing up? Latts discusses the influences that formed her Jewish identity and how it has shaped her life. She was very active in the National Council of Jewish Women's junior council leadership development program. She also attended Camp Birch Trail in Minong, Wisconsin. B'nai Brith Youth Organization (BBYO) ; Camp Birch Trail ; Chapel Hill ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Duke University ; Freeman Center ; Hadassah ; Hillel ; Israel ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish identity ; Jewishness ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Minong (Wis.) ; Minong, Wisconsin ; National Council of Jewish Women ; Neil Simon ; North Carolina ; Proctor and Camble ; Summer camps ; Wisconsin Childhood ; Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Recreation ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 46.096, -91.861 17 Camp Birch Trail in Minong, Wisconsin 968 Jewish family traditions I wonder if I can take you back a little bit to talk about kind of how your parents, um, in--in--shared Judaism with you. Latts discusses how her parents, Ellen and Max Shapira, shared Judaism with her. She tells stories of how her family used to celebrate Christmas every year. Latts says on the subject, &quot ; there was never a question of our Jewish identity. It was just a cultural thing that we did.&quot ; Latts discusses how, even though her large family all went to different synagogues, they would always celebrate the Jewish holidays together. Adath Jeshurun Synagogue (Louisville) ; Andy Shapira ; Christmas ; Ellen Shapira ; Family traditions ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; Jewish holidays ; Keneseth Israel Synagogue (Louisville) ; Kosher ; Max Shapira ; Reform Judaism ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; The Last Night at Ballyhoo ; Traditions ; United States Families. ; Family histories. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1656 Female role models Do you have any female role models in your family that, that you think of that helped you imagine who you might become? Latts discusses the cumulative experiences that influenced her aspirations and ambitions. One woman who inspired Latts was her aunt, also named Ellen Shapira (same name as Kate's mother), who had a meaningful career in the 1980s, a time when it was not the status quo to do so. Latts continues to discuss the social norms in our society today and society's view on women in the workplace. 1980s ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Brown-Forman Corporation ; Canada ; Center for Responsive Politics ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Chicago, Illinois ; Distilled spirits industry ; Duke University ; Family ; Female role models ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mary Berrazotto ; North America ; Social norms ; Trailblazing ; Washington (D.C.) ; Washington, D.C. ; Women in the workplace Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Childhood ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry ; Women--Employment. 37.809, -85.4669 17 Bardstown (Ky.) 2523 Work-life balance But to get back to your particular industry-- Latts discusses her role in her family's business, Heaven Hill, where she is the Vice President of Marketing. She says that she loves her job because it is very fast-paced and she deals with a wide variety of projects every day, from marketing issues to commercials that they shoot with the rapper 2 Chainz. She also discusses the social norms of women with careers and the dynamics of working with her family. 2 Chainz (Artist) ; Allan Latts ; Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Family businesses ; Family dynamics ; Hypnotiq ; Kentucky ; Lunazul ; Mexico ; New York ; Social norms ; Tequila ; Vodka ; Women in the workplace Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry ; Women--Employment. 17 3046 Jews in the bourbon industry Are there any industry legends or fables that you feel like would be useful for us to know about? Latts discusses an industry legend, Bill Samuels. Samuels started Maker's Mark and created a mystique and allure about the brand. Latts discusses the lack of racial diversity in Heaven Hill's management, which she attributes to the relatively small pool of eligible applicants in Louisville, Kentucky. Latts also discusses why there are so many Jewish people in the industry. African Americans ; Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Bill Goldring ; Bill Samuels ; Bourbon festivals ; Buffalo Trace Distillery. ; Chaplin family ; Diversity ; Fables ; Fireball ; Glazer family ; Industry legends ; Jews ; Kentucky ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Maker’s Mark Distillery ; Maria the Jewess ; New Orleans (La.) ; New Orleans, Louisiana ; New York ; Southern Wine and Spirits ; Texas Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish families. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 29.951, -90.07 17 New Orleans (La.) 3422 Accomplishments and advancement potential for women Um, switching gears a little bit-- Latts tells the stories behind the names of some brands Heaven Hill produces, such as Larceny and Black Heart. Latts goes on to discuss some of her proudest moments in the industry, such as the creation of the first pomegranate liqueur, Pama. She also discusses the evolution of marketing in today's world. Latts notes that her daughter, Lindsay, wants to work in the family business when she grows up. Bardstown (Ky.) ; Bardstown, Kentucky ; Blackheart spiced rum ; Captain Morgan ; Elijah Craig bourbon whiskey ; Evan Williams bourbon whiskey ; Jake Latts ; John Fitzgerald ; Kentucky ; Larceny Kentucky Straight Bourbon ; Larry Kass ; Lindsay Latts ; Old Fitz ; PAMA Pomegranate Liqueur ; Pirates ; Spiced rum Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Branding (Marketing) ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky ; Women in the whiskey industry 17 4029 Jewish values in business You talked so much about the, the intertwining of family and business... Latts discusses the Jewish values that her family and Heaven Hill find most important, such as hard work, education, and family. She does note, however, that these values are not at all limited to the Jewish religion. African Americans ; Allan Latts ; Bernheim Distribution ; Bourbon Heritage Center ; Catholic ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Chicago, Illinois ; Education ; Evan Williams bourbon whiskey ; Family ; Hard work ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jewish values ; Jewishness ; New York ; Prosperity Whiskey ; Starbucks Alcohol industry. ; Bourbon whiskey ; Distillation. ; Distilleries--Kentucky ; Distillers. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Whiskey industry--Kentucky 41.878, -87.629 17 Chicago (Ill.) interview Kate Shapira Latts is one of the only women in a high executive position at her family’s business, Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. She was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1971. From an early age, Latts remembers feeling very proud of and interested in the family business. She recalls doing childhood science experiments to see which grains or mash blends provided the highest yields of alcohol. She explains that her Jewish identity was shaped by many things, including her family’s Jewish values and her experiences at Camp Birch Trail in Minong, Wisconsin, a primarily-Jewish all girls’ summer camp. She was also very active in the National Council of Jewish Women’s junior council leadership development program. Kate Shapira Latts was inspired from a young age by her aunt, who had a meaningful executive career as well as a family in the 1980s, a time when it was not the status quo to do so. In her interview, Latts discusses the challenges professional women face in a mostly male-dominated industry. While she explains that she loves her job, she also points out that working with her family in the family business requires a special work-life balance. No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh153_jk025_latts_ohm.xml 2016oh153_jk025_latts_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh153_jk025_latts_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kate Shapira Latts, May 24, 2016 Description An account of the resource Kate Shapira Latts is one of the only women in a high executive position at her family’s business, Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. She was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1971. From an early age, Latts remembers feeling very proud of and interested in the family business. She recalls doing childhood science experiments to see which grains or mash blends provided the highest yields of alcohol. She explains that her Jewish identity was shaped by many things, including her family’s Jewish values and her experiences at Camp Birch Trail in Minong, Wisconsin, a primarily-Jewish all girls’ summer camp. She was also very active in the National Council of Jewish Women’s junior council leadership development program. Kate Shapira Latts was inspired from a young age by her aunt, who had a meaningful executive career as well as a family in the 1980s, a time when it was not the status quo to do so. In her interview, Latts discusses the challenges professional women face in a mostly male-dominated industry. While she explains that she loves her job, she also points out that working with her family in the family business requires a special work-life balance. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh153_jk025 Subject The topic of the resource Alcohol industry. Bourbon whiskey Distillation. Distilleries--Kentucky Distillers. Family-owned business enterprises. Heaven Hill Distilleries, Inc. Whiskey industry--Kentucky Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Women in the whiskey industry Women--Employment. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/374ce03d0f2da5d8fa9f1d2766295e64.jpg 9379faab64c552a602e080f7fd088519 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mike Ades Interview Keyword Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company Jewish Hospital St. Joseph Hospital Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission The Plantory Social reformers Law schools. Jewish physicians. Medical care Education, Higher OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh149_jk024 Interview with Mike Ades, June 22, 2016 2016oh149_jk024 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Louisville (Ky.) Family histories. Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Religion Worship (Judaism) Discrimination. Hospitals Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jews--Identity. Lawyers--Kentucky Jewish lawyers Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company Jewish Hospital St. Joseph Hospital Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission The Plantory Social reformers Law schools. Jewish physicians. Medical care Education, Higher Mike Ades Janice Crane 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253329158&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family background For official purposes, today is June 22nd, 2016. My name is Janice Crane, and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Mike Ades (born March 1st, 1940) begins the interview by detailing his family background, including that his mother worked as a housewife and his father owned and operated a family dry goods business. He discusses how his grandfather, David Ades, immigrated from Lithuania around 1895. He discusses how his family played an integral role in the founding of Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Mike's grandfather David Ades and his brother Max Ades being the two founders. He talks about how his grandfather received the Optimus Cup in the 1950s for his work in civic and service organizations in the community. 1882 ; 1940 ; David Ades ; Francis Lederman ; Good Samaritan Hospital on Harrison Ave ; Isaac Lederman ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Lithuania ; Lithuanian immigrants ; Louis Ades ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Michael Lederman Ades ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0422246, -84.5006583 17 Good Samaritan Hospital on Harrison Ave 1222 Growing up in the Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company in the 1940s From previous interviews and research and conversations that I’ve had with, um, other members of the Jewish community, it’s clear that there were small--some of these small general stores... Ades discusses a general history of his knowledge of the Jewish-owned stores in Lexington, Kentucky. He notes that he never noticed that there was any discrimination against Jewish-owned stores or anything that really separated them from the community at-large. He then discusses the dry goods business that his family owned and operated. The Ades family owned and operated the Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company in Lexington, Kentucky from 1925 to 1977. Ades discusses how even today he still will drive by the old building, located at 249 West Main Street, because it holds very fond memories of his childhood, from playing with the toys on the third floor as a young boy to working at the store over the summers in high school. Ades Dry Goods ; Ades Lexington Dry Goods Company ; Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Building ; Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company ; Big business ; Dry goods ; Jewish ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish merchants ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Small businesses Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.044211, -84.49421799999999 17 Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Building 1637 History of family involvement with Jewish Hospital and St. Joseph Hospital Let’s leave Lexington and the ’80s for a bit and talk some about your maternal grandfather, Dr. Isaac Lederman, from Louisville. I found several interesting articles about him dating back to the late-1800s. Ades talks about his maternal grandfather, Dr. Isaac Lederman, mainly through what he knows from articles written about his grandfather and what few stories his mother told him growing up about how his grandfather was a very prominent physician. He talks about how his grandfather worked at Jewish Hospital until his passing. He then goes on to discuss how his family has a history of serving on boards for Jewish Hospital and St. Joseph Hospital in Lexington in the 1950s, and even how he himself is now on the board for KentuckyOne Health, which owns Jewish Hospital. 1890 ; 1896 ; David Ades ; Isaac Lederman ; Jewish Hospital ; Louisville Hospital ; Louisville, Kentucky ; St. Joseph Hospital ; University of Louisville ; University of Louisville Medical School Families. ; Family histories. ; Hospitals ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jewish physicians. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care 38.2490, -85.7513 17 Jewish Hospital, Louisville (Ky.) 2021 Growing up Jewish in Lexington, Kentucky in the 1950s Mike, you have a strong Kentucky background going back to the 1800s on both sides of your family, and your family history, especially here in Lexington, is clearly rooted in the Jewish community. So what was Judaism in your family like growing up? Ades discusses growing up in a Jewish family. He discusses how his grandparents (who immigrated from Lithuania) belonged to Ohavay Zion Synagogue, which was an Orthodox congregation at the time and would eventually become a conservative congregation. He talks about how his grandparents kept a kosher home, how they would go for Shabbos every Friday night to their grandparents' home, and how his grandfather would close the dry goods store on the high holidays and walk to the synagogue. He also discusses how his grandfather was a member of Temple Adath Israel, a reform congregation. Ades talks about how his father grew up in both Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and married a reform Jewish woman, and how this impacted his life growing up in a Jewish household because as a child he too split his Jewish observance between the two local Lexington congregations like his father before him. However, he says that he doesn't see growing up between the two congregations as being any sort of challenge or disadvantage in any way. High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Reform Judaism ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Childhood ; Emigration and immigration. ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Immigrants ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0357, -84.4828 17 Temple Adath Israel 2795 Growing up Jewish--Parental influences vs educational influences What did your parents teach you about Judaism? Ades discusses how growing up in a Jewish household and his familial influences on Jewish life differed from life as a Jewish student in school. He talks about how his parents and grandparents served as examples for living a Jewish life through their respect for family, membership in both congregations, and community involvement. He talks about being a Jewish student at Henry Clay High School, including how being a Jewish student was being a part of a very small close-knit minority. Ades says that he never experienced any anti-Semitism as a high school student. He then goes back to his family influence on his Jewish identity and talks about one of his most vivid memories growing up being going to his grandfather's house for Shabbos. Henry Clay High School (Lexington) ; Holiday Road (Lexington) ; Jewish ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish tradition ; Judaism ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Morton Junior High School (Lexington) ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.0151968, -84.47270700000001 17 Henry Clay High School, Lexington (Ky.) 3712 University of Pennsylvania in the late 1950s / Meeting his future wife Harriet at Yale Law School in the 1960s Where did you go to college, and what did you study? Ades talks about his time as a college student at the Wharton School of Finance at the University of Pennsylvania. He ended up taking his junior year abroad at Edinburgh University in Scotland and traveled to many places in Europe. Upon returning to the United States he changed his major to political science and then applied to law school. He attended law school at Yale Law School in New Haven, Connecticut. During his time at the University of Pennsylvania he joined a Jewish fraternity, Phi Epsilon Pi. He met his wife Harriet during his third year of law school and they married on July 11th just after he graduated. They have been married for 51 years. 1950s ; 1960s ; Colleges ; Edinburgh University ; Phi Epsilon Pi ; Scotland ; University of Pennsylvania ; Yale Law School ; Yale University College students--Social conditions ; Education, Higher ; Law schools. ; Marriage ; Universities and colleges. 39.9522188, -75.1932137 17 University of Pennsylvania 4298 Raising Jewish children and impact of family values on children's observance of Judaism Describe any major differences or similarities that you and Harriet had growing up Jewish that might have impacted how you raised your kids. Ades discusses his and his wife Harriet's Jewish upbringings and how they both approached raising Jewish children. He says that his wife was raised in a more Reform Jewish background, while he became more active in the conservative Ohavay Zion Synagogue. However, his wife ended up having a stronger feeling toward conservative Judaism that he did, which is why they maintained their membership more at Ohavay Zion over Temple Adath Israel. They both knew they wanted to raise their children Jewish and had their children pursue early education through Ohavay Zion (noting the fact that they did not split membership for their children between the Temple and the Synagogue.) He talks about how some of his children increased the level of Judaism in their life by deciding to keep Kosher and go to Israel but then later drifted away from Judaism. His son David became an active member of Ohavay Zion in Lexington and later an active member of a Reform congregation in Durham, North Carolina. Conservative Judaism ; Israel ; Jewish ; Jewish education ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish practices ; Jewish religion ; Jewish society ; Jewish tradition ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Reform Judaism ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 7.9986, -84.4718 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue 4964 Leadership roles in the Jewish community and Spinoza Society As long as I've known you you've been such a constant and critical piece of the fabric of the Lexington Jewish community, Mike. Ades talks about his various leadership roles in the community as well as his work with the Spinoza Society. He tells us that his primary motivation for taking on these leadership roles is from his grandfather David Ades and how involved his grandfather and his parents were in the Jewish community. He also tells us that the experiences he had growing up Jewish (Bar Mitzvah, confirmation, etc.) greatly impacted his feelings toward Judaism and the Jewish community, as well as being in a Jewish fraternity. He then talks about his work with the Spinoza Society (a society founded in 1880 that created a place for Jews in Lexington to be buried together.) Ades became a member in the mid-1980s and has since served on the board of the society and as the chair. Cemeteries ; Jewish ; Jewish burials ; Jewish cemeteries ; Jewish communities ; Jewish life ; Jewish traditions ; Leadership ; Spinoza Society Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 5588 Israel and Zionism influencing identity What was the--what has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your activities and of your identity as a Jew? Ades discusses how Israel and Zionism has played a role and impacted his personal Jewish identity. Through Sunday school and youth groups he became aware of the significance of the Holocaust and Israel. He wanted to spend a few months in Israel over the summer before returning from his year abroad in Edinburgh but his parents were strongly against it so he returned home. His feelings about Israel were reinforced through his work in United Jewish Appeal, and in 1972 he went on a UJA mission to Israel. Later in life he and his wife Harriet went back to Israel and other places in eastern Europe that held prominent history from the Holocaust. He went once more to Israel in 1992 sponsored by Hebrew University. He says that the attachment to Israel and Zionism has always been a part of his life. Eastern Europe ; Jewish ; Sunday school ; United Jewish Appeal ; Zionism Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) ; Israel. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 5912 Work as an attorney with Stoll, Keenon, &amp ; Park (1965-1980) and Greenebaum, Doll, &amp ; McDonald (1980-onward) Mike, let’s talk about your work as an attorney for a little bit. What area of law is your specialty? Ades discusses his time as an attorney. He became a part of Stoll Keenon &amp ; and Park in 1965 and was the only Jewish member at the time. His law practice over the next 15 years was about half release and half general law work. He became a partner in the firm after about 6 years. In 1980, he switched law firms to the Lexington office of the Greenbaum Doll &amp ; McDonald firm (at the persistence of his wife's brother) and specialized just in commercial real estate. Attorneys ; Commercial law ; Greenebaum Doll &amp ; McDonald ; Greenebaum, Doll, &amp ; McDonald ; Real estate ; Stoll Keenon &amp ; Park ; Stoll, Keenon, &amp ; and Park Jewish lawyers ; Lawyers--Kentucky 17 6082 Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission Mike, I don't know if you've ever Googled yourself-- Ades talks about his time as treasurer of the Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission. He describes the organization as being formed in the early 1960s and fighting discrimination in all aspects of the community. Within a year of joining he became treasurer. Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission Discrimination. ; Social action 38.029187, -84.51771500000001 17 Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission 6287 Work with healthcare institutions in the 1970s and 1980s And an article I found mentioned, um, and you spoke a little bit about, your position with both the Saint Joseph Healthcare System and the KentuckyOne Health. Ades discusses his work with various healthcare and medical institutions including KentuckyOne Healthcare and St. Joseph Healthcare. In the mid-1980s he served for 3 years on the advisory board of the Humana Hospital in Lexington, which was sold in the late 1980s to Jewish Hospital in Louisville. Ades was then asked to serve on the Lexington board for Jewish Hospital, which was then sold a year later to St. Joseph Hospital and Ades was again asked to serve on the advisory board. He then was asked to go on the board of KentuckyOne Health when they bought out St. Joseph and Jewish Hospital and served for three years (which he recently renewed). He had no prior hospital experience before serving on all of these boards. Catholic Health Initiative ; Jewish ; Jewish Hospital ; KentuckyOne Health ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Louisville, Kentucky ; St. Joseph Hospital Hospitals ; Jewish physicians. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care 38.032462, -84.5236511 17 St. Joseph Hospital, Lexington (Ky.) 6569 Work with the Plantory organization in the 1970s Explain what the Plantory is, and tell us what your role with the relatively new nonprofit has been and what you know about its beginnings and its relationship to the Kentucky Conference for Community and Justice. Ades talks about his work with the Plantory non-profit organization. He talks about the history of the Plantory, which began as a national organization at the National Conference of Christians and Jews in the 1920s that held conferences to facilitate conversations and work between Christians and Jews. Ades says that he joined the board of the Lexington chapter in the 1970s and left in the 1980s. Christians ; Interfaith council ; Jewish ; Jews ; The Plantory Christianity ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 38.05978140000001, -84.49189309999997 17 The Plantory 6870 Most rewarding leadership experience You know, we've probably barely touched on all of your civic leadership roles. Ades discusses his most rewarding leadership experience, which he says was during his time as president of Ohavay Zion Synagogue under the direction of Rabbi Schwabb in the mid-1980s. He talks about how the rabbi was very ill and many members in the synagogue believed that the synagogue should become more egalitarian. He discusses the conflict between the conservative views of some of the members of the congregation and the orthodox views of the rabbi and other members. He talks about how when Rabbi Schwabb passed away, a new rabbi (Rabbi Uri Smith) came into the congregation who was more open to the idea of female participation. He notes that not a single member left the congregation because of the change, though some may have disapproved, and he feels that it made the congregation stronger. 1980s ; Conservative Judaism ; Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish women ; Judaism ; Leadership ; Orthodox Judaism ; Transition periods Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jewish women--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Rabbis ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 37.9986, -84.4718 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue 7184 Jewish identity and its impact on his work as an attorney and civic leader What role, if any, has your faith, your Jewishness, had on your work as an attorney or as a civic leader? Ades says that the traditional ethical values of Judaism (being involved in the community, helping others who are less fortunate, and doing the right thing and encouraging others to do the same) which come from both his Jewish faith and heritage certainly shaped who he is as a member of the Lexington community and are a few of the main reasons behind why he does so much communal work with human rights organizations. Jewish ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Jewish religion ; Jewish tradition ; Judaism ; Lexington, Kentucky Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Social reformers ; Worship (Judaism) 40.7127837, -74.00594130000002 17 Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass interview Mike Ades begins the interview by detailing his family background, including how in 1895 his grandfather, David Ades, immigrated from Lithuania to Baltimore, Maryland and then later joined his brother in Lexington, Kentucky. He discusses how his family played an integral role in the founding of Ohavay Zion Synagogue: Mike's grandfather, David Ades, and his brother Max Ades were two of the synagogue’s original founders in 1912. The Ades family owned and operated the Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company in Lexington, Kentucky from 1925 to 1977. Ades discusses how even today he still will drive by the old building located at 249 West Main Street because it holds very fond memories of his childhood, from playing with the toys on the third floor as a young boy to working at the store over the summers in high school. He also discusses how his grandfather was a member of Temple Adath Israel (a Reform congregation in Lexington, Kentucky.) Mike talks about how his father grew up in both Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and married a reform Jewish woman, and how this impacted his life growing up in a Jewish household as his Jewish upbringing was split between both the conservative Ohavay Zion Synagogue and the reform Temple Adath Israel. Ades also discusses his various leadership roles in the community as well as his work with the Spinoza Society. He says that his primary motivation for taking on these leadership roles is from his grandfather, David Ades, and how involved his grandfather and his parents were in the Jewish community. He then talks about his work with the Spinoza Society (a society founded in 1880 that created a place for Jews in Lexington to be buried together). Mike became a member in the mid-1980s and has since served on the board of the society and as the chair. He goes on to discuss his practice as a commercial attorney, his work with the Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission, various healthcare institutions, and the Plantory organization. He concludes the interview by discussing how the traditional ethical values of Judaism (being involved in the community, helping others who are less fortunate, and doing the right thing and encouraging others to do the same) which stem not only from his Jewish faith but also his Jewish heritage, helped shaped who he is as a member of the Lexington community. They also help to explain why he has done, and continues to do, so much community-based service for not only the Lexington Jewish community, but the Lexington community in general. No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh149_jk024_ades_ohm.xml 2016oh149_jk024_ades_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh149_jk024_ades_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mike Ades, June 22, 2016 Description An account of the resource Mike Ades begins the interview by detailing his family background, including how in 1895 his grandfather, David Ades, immigrated from Lithuania to Baltimore, Maryland and then later joined his brother in Lexington, Kentucky. He discusses how his family played an integral role in the founding of Ohavay Zion Synagogue: Mike's grandfather, David Ades, and his brother Max Ades were two of the synagogue’s original founders in 1912. The Ades family owned and operated the Ades-Lexington Dry Goods Company in Lexington, Kentucky from 1925 to 1977. Ades discusses how even today he still will drive by the old building located at 249 West Main Street because it holds very fond memories of his childhood, from playing with the toys on the third floor as a young boy to working at the store over the summers in high school. He also discusses how his grandfather was a member of Temple Adath Israel (a Reform congregation in Lexington, Kentucky.) Mike talks about how his father grew up in both Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue, and married a reform Jewish woman, and how this impacted his life growing up in a Jewish household as his Jewish upbringing was split between both the conservative Ohavay Zion Synagogue and the reform Temple Adath Israel. Ades also discusses his various leadership roles in the community as well as his work with the Spinoza Society. He says that his primary motivation for taking on these leadership roles is from his grandfather, David Ades, and how involved his grandfather and his parents were in the Jewish community. He then talks about his work with the Spinoza Society (a society founded in 1880 that created a place for Jews in Lexington to be buried together). Mike became a member in the mid-1980s and has since served on the board of the society and as the chair. He goes on to discuss his practice as a commercial attorney, his work with the Lexington Fayette Urban County Human Rights Commission, various healthcare institutions, and the Plantory organization. He concludes the interview by discussing how the traditional ethical values of Judaism (being involved in the community, helping others who are less fortunate, and doing the right thing and encouraging others to do the same) which stem not only from his Jewish faith but also his Jewish heritage, helped shaped who he is as a member of the Lexington community. They also help to explain why he has done, and continues to do, so much community-based service for not only the Lexington Jewish community, but the Lexington community in general. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh149_jk024 Subject The topic of the resource Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Louisville (Ky.) Family histories. Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Religion Worship (Judaism) Discrimination. Hospitals Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Jews--Identity. Lawyers--Kentucky Jewish lawyers Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/b73672841d01ee8d321bb9280835c74b.jpg 191993c00b02ecef1ecb513150b17fb1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Arwen Donahue Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Benjamin Baker Interview Keyword Families. Family histories. Jewish children Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh062_jk022 Interview with Benjamin Baker, May 13, 2016 2016oh062_jk022 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Religion Worship (Judaism) Families. Family histories. Jewish children Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Benjamin Baker Arwen Donahue 1:|35(7)|46(10)|69(3)|89(6)|99(8)|117(3)|126(8)|139(5)|148(1)|168(11)|180(9)|193(9)|202(6)|218(14)|233(12)|245(7)|253(10)|268(9)|289(11)|297(11)|309(3)|324(6)|346(4)|354(5)|366(1)|382(1)|398(3)|408(12)|421(5)|435(17)|455(11)|466(3)|475(10)|491(10)|497(12)|503(9)|509(4)|518(8)|528(13)|538(11)|552(14)|560(9)|570(16)|579(1)|594(6)|601(12)|640(4)|650(7)|676(1)|684(6)|699(12)|713(2)|727(16)|739(5)|750(7)|760(5)|776(11)|785(2)|793(7)|804(6)|820(15)|828(6)|836(6)|849(6)|864(16)|871(13)|879(11)|892(4)|901(5)|911(2)|919(12)|929(9)|938(2)|948(12)|955(4)|967(10)|978(15)|987(9)|1011(5)|1022(4)|1041(8)|1055(4)|1068(4)|1089(13)|1100(12)|1116(2)|1126(12)|1143(3)|1155(12)|1167(2)|1196(8)|1209(15)|1218(5)|1228(4)|1235(1)|1250(3)|1261(11)|1283(6)|1294(8)|1304(9)|1322(11)|1330(4)|1345(7)|1361(7)|1379(9)|1410(3)|1423(5)|1438(7)|1449(6)|1459(2)|1471(11)|1482(5)|1495(1)|1505(4)|1515(7)|1525(13)|1538(8) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253328697&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family history Alright. It's May 13th, 2016. Ben Baker describes his family's history, primarily focusing on his mother's side. His maternal grandfather, who was originally from New York, owned a clothing store in Lexington on the corner of N. Mill Street and E. Main Street, which remained open until sometime in the 1950s. He also traveled around the southeast United States and managed stores that were closing. He came to the Lexington area in part because he had relatives living in Paris, Kentucky. Baker family ; Barbara Francis Baker ; Barbara Strauss ; Entrepreneurship ; Family values ; Gloria Baker Feinstein ; Jewish businesses ; Michael J. Baker ; Migration ; Moving ; New York (N.Y.) ; Peddlers ; Peddling ; Roos family ; Small businesses ; Traveling salesman Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Paris (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.048, -84.499 17 Former location of Ben Baker's maternal grandfather's clothing store on the corner of N. Mill St. and E. Main St., Lexington, Kentucky. 257 Family generational shift from Orthodox to Reform Judaism Um, I had the impression from interviewing your father that his parents were very, um, very open to change. Baker's paternal grandparents practiced Orthodox Judaism before immigrating from Poland. After arriving in the United States, however, Morris Baker helped found Ohavay Zion Synagogue in 1912. After his death in 1946, Baker's maternal grandmother attended Temple Adath Israel with her children, in part because it was difficult to maintain a more strict Jewish practice in a small Southern town. Bar mitzvahs ; East European immigrants ; Family values ; Harold Baker ; History ; Jewish history ; Jewish practices ; Kashrut (see also Kosher food) ; Kosher food (see also Kashrut) ; Lexington history ; Morris Baker ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Orthodox Judaism ; Poland ; Reform Judaism ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Small town life ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Immigrants--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.043, -84.502 17 First location of Ohavay Zion Synagogue (currently Joe Bologna's Restaurant and Pizzeria). Located at 120 W. Maxwell St. http://www.ozs.org/history-2/history/epiloguefounders/ List of original founders, including Morris Baker, that established Ohavay Zion Synagogue in Lexington, Kentucky in 1912. 465 Working at Baker Iron and Metal in 1964 And what about your involvement, um, with the family business, when you were a boy? Baker describes working in the family business, from customer service and clerical work during the summer as a child in 1964 to helping run the business full-time after graduating college in 1972. His father, Harold Baker, continued to have a significant presence in the business and contributed to marketing, outreach to industrial accounts, and customer service. Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Family businesses ; Family values ; Harold Baker ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish economic niche ; Scrap metal ; Shelley Dehr ; Small businesses Childhood ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.079, -84.473 17 Location of Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal Co. at 740 Rockcastle St, Lexington, Kentucky. http://www.bakeriron.com/about-us &quot ; About Us&quot ; section of Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal Co. 685 Celebrating Jewish life as a child in the 1950s and 1960s Going back to your family background and a bit-- you mentioned that it was important to you to have family here in Kentucky when you were, when you were growing up. Holidays were a highlight for Baker during his childhood because they always involved large family gatherings. In recent years, however, Baker has had to start inviting friends over for holidays because many members of his family are unable to attend due to location or disability. He also discusses his Jewish education and identity and how it affected his childhood experiences, from missing school during the High Holidays and being unable to attend events on Friday nights. Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Decline of Jewish population ; Family life ; Family values ; Generational change ; Hanukkah (also Chanukah and other spellings) ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jewish education ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Kheyder (see also Hebrew school, Sunday school) ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Public schools ; Sunday school ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Childhood ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1064 Attending Deerfield Academy in Deerfield, Massachusetts from 1965 to 1968 So when you went to Ashland, Cassidy, and Morton were your friendships across the board-- Although the public schools in Lexington did not offer Jewish students excused absences for religious holidays, Baker did not experience much anti-Semitism in Lexington. He does remember an incident of anti-Semitism involving other students while attending high school at Deerfield Academy in Deerfield, Massachusetts where he was excluded from signing up for a dorm room with a group of students. This led to Baker seeking out a university with a larger Jewish population and eventually attending Northwestern University from 1968 to 1972. Colleges ; Deerfield (Mass.) ; Deerfield Academy ; Friendship ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; High schools ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish population ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Northwestern University ; Prejudice ; Public schools ; Secular ; Universities Anti-Semitism. ; Antisemitism. ; College students--Religious life ; Education ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. 42.545, -72.608 17 Deerfield Academy, 7 Boyden Ln, Deerfield, Massachusetts. https://web.archive.org/web/20071215044208/http://www.deerfield.edu/admissions/index.cfm?page_ID=16 History of Deerfield Academy, located in Deerfield, Massachusetts. 1455 Returning to Lexington in 1972 And what happened while you were there that made you realize you wanted to come back and be involved with the family business? Baker returned to Lexington after he graduated from Northwestern University in 1972 to help run Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal. He notes that many children of parents in the Lexington scrap metal business ended up returning to Lexington and working in the family business as well. He also discusses the importance that Judaism played in his life during college, becoming involved with Temple Adath Israel, and meeting his wife, Ruth Gordon Baker. Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Board of directors ; Cohen family ; Conventions ; Family businesses ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish economic niche ; Jewish identity ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish networks ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Leadership ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Migration ; Religious practices ; Scrap metal ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) College students--Religious life ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 38.004, -84.171 17 Location of Harry Gordon Steel, located at 695 N Main St, Winchester, Kentucky. http://www.lextai.org/about-us/our-history History section of the Temple Adath Israel website. 1609 Evolving role of Judaism in Baker's life When you were in college did you maintain a Jewish practice? Sense of Jewish ritual? While attending Northwestern University, Baker admits that it was difficult to maintain Jewish practices and that he was more concerned with college life. He and his family are avid fans of the University of Kentucky's (UK) men's basketball team, and he describes the only basketball game he attended while in college - the UK Wildcats versus the Northwestern University Wildcats. He became a member of Temple Adath Israel when he returned to Lexington in 1972 and quickly took on a leadership role. Although the role of Judaism in Baker's life was initially to meet other Jewish contemporaries, it has evolved into a spiritual force in his life. Basketball ; Board of directors ; College life ; College sports ; Community ; Community involvement ; Courting ; Harry Gordon Scrap ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish networks ; Jewish practices ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Northwestern University ; Religious practices ; Ruth Gordon Baker ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Kentucky College students--Religious life ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 2018 Changes in Reform Judaism as a reaction to assimilation and intermarriage So how did you, um--how did your own practice of Judaism differ, how did it, how does it differ from that of your parents, if at all? As Jews became more assimilated and married gentiles at a greater rate in recent decades, most Reform congregations became more conservative in their religious services in order to maintain a sense of Jewish identity and community. Baker discusses how Temple Adath Israel has followed the national pattern of leaning more conservative in recent years. Changing practices include incorporating Hebrew into services and increased congregation participation. He also discusses Temple Adath Israel's growing openness to including non-Jewish spouses in services and rituals such as bar and bat mitzvahs in order to keep mixed-faith families as a part of the Temple's congregation. Assimilation ; Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Board of directors ; Congregations ; Decline of Jewish population ; Generational change ; Intermarriage ; Jewish identity ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jewish religion ; Jewish tradition ; Reform Judaism ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Temple ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/us/poll-shows-major-shift-in-identity-of-us-jews.html Article from the New York Times titled &quot ; Poll Shows Major Shift in Identity of U.S. Jews.&quot ; 2784 Service on the Temple's board of directors in the 1980s and 1990s And when you started being involved in the board, um, I read that, I read in the history book, um, the, the Centennial history book, uh, on Temple Adath Israel, that came out in 2003 or 2004-- Baker served on Temple Adath Israel's board in many different positions for twelve years and he explains the line of succession for the Temple's board. He discusses how he believes that his service, which detracted time from his family, negatively influenced his children's views of Judaism. He also talks about the causes for the generational decline in Temple attendance which includes the economic stagnation in Lexington, the out-migration of young people, and a focus on family activities as opposed to social activities. Board of directors ; Decline of Jewish population ; Family life ; Generational change ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish population ; Jewish society ; Population growth ; Succession ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Worship (Judaism) 17 3065 Declining Temple attendance in the 2000s I, I think that, uh, in the se--when I was--when I came back from school in the seventies and eighties, uh, socially there--this was a way for me to, uh, meet young families, young, young couples and so Ruth and I were very excited about this possibility... Attendance at Temple Adath Israel reached its zenith during the seventies and eighties due to young people moving back to Lexington after college and the economic boom in the area. Baker and his wife, Ruth Gordon Baker, attended the Temple and were able to meet other young couples and they remain active members of the Temple. In recent years, however, the Temple's congregation has shrunk due to an aging congregation, the out-migration of young Jews, and economic stagnation resulting in fewer people moving to Lexington. Baker is dedicated to fighting for a Reform Jewish presence in Lexington for the next generation but is grappling with the challenge of increasing Temple membership and stabilizing Temple finances. He does not foresee a viable solution to this problem at the moment. Board of directors ; Civic involvement ; Community ; Community involvement ; Decline of Jewish population ; Generational changes ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish life ; Jewish networks ; Jewish population ; Jewish tradition ; Migration ; Population growth ; Reform Judaism ; Role of communal institutions ; Ruth Gordon Baker ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; University of Kentucky ; University of Kentucky Hospital Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 3817 Working in the scrap metal industry from the 1970s to 2002 Well, let's go back and talk, y--more about the ir--scrap iron business, iron and metal business. Baker talks about his time working for Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal. The employees at Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal were very supportive of Baker when he first started working, and in turn he supported them by trying to find them work at the business during economic downturns and hiring several children of current employees. He explains the obstacles that the business faced, from a cyclical economy to losing contracts due to geography and location. He also describes the competition and camaraderie that he shared with other business owners and the eventual selling of the company to the Cohens in 2002 due to health concerns. Antisemitism ; Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Blues family ; Building businesses ; Business obstacles ; Cohen family ; Discrimination ; Economic interdependence ; Education ; Family businesses ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish communities ; Jewish economic niche ; Jewish networks ; Jewish practices ; Klempner family ; Mansbach family ; Prejudice ; Religious practices ; Scrap metal Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 4684 Gentile-Jewish relations in the family scrap metal business I'm, I'm interested in what the atmosphere was like at the, at the conventions, and at the meetings, if you have Jewish b--if you have businesspeople from all over the place who, the majority of whom were Jewish, was there any particular, um--would, would somebody who just walked in have noticed, in some way, that there was a-- Scrap metal has historically been a predominantly Jewish industry, and Baker describes his experiences as a Jew dealing with gentiles in the business, from attending national conventions and competing for contracts with gentile businesses, to relations with his gentile employees. He also remembers working with his father, and his father's continued involvement in the company until they sold it in 2002. Antisemitism ; Baker Iron &amp ; amp Metal ; Discrimination ; Family businesses ; Gentile-Jewish relations ; Harold Baker ; Jewish businesses ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Prejudice ; Religious life ; Religious practices ; Scrap metal ; Stores closing for holidays Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 5120 Connection with the larger Jewish community as a child Um, wondered, going back to your childhood and youth, just to pick up on a couple questions that I neglected to ask you earlier: did you connect at all with the larger Jewish community in Louisville or Cincinnati, such as, you know, through youth groups, parties, um, et cetera? While growing up, Baker was able to connect with other Jewish kids at a regional summer camp in Zionsville, Indiana, giving him a different Jewish experience than attending services in Lexington. Attending the summer camp allowed him to share experiences with the larger Jewish community, such as attending Shabbat services with other people his age. Bar mitzvahs ; Conclave ; Indianapolis (Ind.) ; Jewish communities ; Jewish friends ; Jewish identity ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; Reform Judaism ; Religious practices ; Religious services ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Summer camps ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Youth organizations ; Zionsville (Ind.) Childhood ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. 39.923, -86.283 17 Location of URJ Goldman Union Camp Institute at 9349 Moore Rd, Zionsville, Indiana. http://guci.org/about/ About section of the URJ Goldman Union Camp Institute, a Reform Jewish summer camp in Zionsville, Indiana. 5482 Israel's influence on Baker's Jewish identity Did you ever, at, at a certain point, get a sense of, um, Jewish--or get, get very interested in Jewish history and Jewish identity, sort of internationally... The Six Day War in 1967 was one of the first times that Baker identified with an international event as a Jew. Since then he has followed current events relating to Israel and visited the country with his wife, some friends, and his Rabbi, Jon Adland, in 1994. It was one of the first times that Baker was able to experience Jewish life as the default. Although some in the Lexington Jewish community feel a strong connection to Israel, Baker does not feel remorse for making his home in Lexington. Community ; Holocaust ; International relations ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish practices ; Munich Massacre ; Munich, Germany ; News ; Political discourse ; Rabbi Jon Adland ; Rose family ; Six Day War ; Small town life ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) ; Zionism Israel. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism 17 6204 Raising children Jewish in Lexington, Kentucky Uh, did you h, have anything to add about your approach to giving your children a sense of their Jewish heritage, and Jewish identity, and how you passed that along to them? Although their children were raised Jewish and Baker's daughter had a Jewish wedding and visited Israel with them in 1994, Baker's children do not actively participate in Temple Adath Israel. Baker and his wife gave their children the &quot ; tools&quot ; for Judaism but never forced them into it. Baker does not attribute his children's unwillingness to participate in Judaism to assimilation into a dominantly Christian culture. Child-rearing ; Cultural acceptance ; Cultural preservation ; Family life ; Family values ; Holidays ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Jewish marriage ; Jewish practices ; Jewish tradition ; John Adland Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. 17 6510 Temple relations with the Synagogue and the Federation of the Bluegrass And then d--have you had any kind of relationship with the Synagogue? In recent years, Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue have begun to develop a more friendly relationship. Baker attributes this to rabbinic leadership at both institutions and the more tolerant attitude of newcomers in the Lexington Jewish community. In a community as small as Lexington, Baker welcomes the budding relationship between the two congregations. He also discusses his relationship with the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, which was originally only a fundraising organization but has since expanded the number of services it offers. Baker explains that the competition between Temple Adath Israel and the Federation for community leaders and the schism within the Temple's congregation over a rabbi in 1986 shrunk the Temple's pool of young leaders. Bill Leffler ; Board of directors ; Community involvement ; Generational change ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish networks ; Jewish organizations ; Jewish population ; Morris Baker ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue (Lexington) ; Small town life ; Temple Adath Israel (Lexington, synagogue) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion 37.997, -84.479 17 Location of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass at 1050 Chinoe Rd #112, Lexington, Kentucky. http://www.jewishlexington.org/ Homepage of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass. interview Ben Baker describes his family's history, primarily focusing on his mother's side. His maternal grandfather, who was originally from New York, owned a clothing store in Lexington on the corner of N. Mill Street and E. Main Street, which remained open until sometime in the 1950s. Baker's paternal grandparents practiced Orthodox Judaism before immigrating from Poland. After arriving in the United States, however, Morris Baker helped found Ohavay Zion Synagogue in 1912. After his death in 1946, Baker's maternal grandmother attended Temple Adath Israel with her children, in part because it was difficult to maintain a more strict Jewish practice in a small Southern town. Baker describes working in the family business, Baker Iron &amp ; Metal, from customer service and clerical work during the summer as a child in 1964 to helping run the business full-time after graduating college in 1972. Holidays were a highlight for Baker during his childhood because they always involved large family gatherings. In recent years, however, Baker has had to start inviting friends over for holidays because many members of his family are unable to attend due to location or disability. He also discusses his Jewish education and identity and how it affected his childhood experiences, from missing school during the High Holidays and being unable to attend events on Friday nights. He became a member of Temple Adath Israel when he returned to Lexington in 1972 and quickly took on a leadership role. Although the role of Judaism in Baker's life was initially to meet other Jewish contemporaries, it has evolved into a spiritual force in his life. He describes the changes in Reform Judaism as a reaction to assimilation and intermarriage, trends in Temple attendance throughout the decades, and the relationship between Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue. DONAHUE: All right. It&#039 ; s May 13th, 2016, I&#039 ; m Arwen Donahue, and I&#039 ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence, and I&#039 ; m honored to be here, today, with Mr. Ben Baker. Uh, we interviewed Ben&#039 ; s father, Harold Baker, a little under two weeks ago, on May third, so we&#039 ; re especially happy to have this chance for intergenerational perspective. So let&#039 ; s start today with, uh, your date of birth? BAKER: September 10th, 1950. DONAHUE: Okay, and where were you born? BAKER: Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington. DONAHUE: Great. What was your name at birth, your full name? BAKER: Benjamin Roos Baker. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Roos is my mother&#039 ; s maiden name, so I was the only one that got, uh, a family name, of the three of us. DONAHUE: And that&#039 ; s-- BAKER: --of the four of us-- DONAHUE: --that&#039 ; s R, R-O-- BAKER: R-double-- DONAHUE: --O-S? BAKER: Correct. DONAHUE: Yeah, okay. Um, so we know f--your parents&#039 ; names, and your father explained a little bit about the family history. I just wonder if you have any, um, since we didn&#039 ; t talk very much about your mother&#039 ; s history, we talked more about your father&#039 ; s family history, if you have anything you can say about your mother&#039 ; s family, where they came from? BAKER: Um, Mom was born in Lexington, she was an only child. Her grandfath--her father was one of two children, they were from New York, and he came to Lexington to open up a business, a men&#039 ; s clothing store, or women&#039 ; s clothing store, I guess. And he had several businesses, really, was, he traveled around Southeast United States doing closeouts: when stores would close, he would come and do the last four months, or five months, of a business&#039 ; existence, and then he&#039 ; d come back to Lexington. Uh, my grandmother on my mother&#039 ; s side had a sister who lived in Paris. DONAHUE: Paris, Kentucky? BAKER: Um-hm. So the two families were very close. They also only had one child, uh, her name is Barbara Straw, she is still living, she&#039 ; s ninety-two. So it w--I was very fortunate, in that my father had a sister living here, my mother had a cousin living here. So family was very important, as far as growing, as, when I was growing up. So. DONAHUE: What was the name of the clothing store that your mother&#039 ; s father had, do you know? BAKER: I cannot answer that for you. I can tell you its-- DONAHUE: --but they had-- BAKER: --location, but I can&#039 ; t tell you our--the name of it. DONAHUE: Okay. Tell me its location, though. BAKER: Um, one block west of the courthouse, of the old courthouse, at the corner of Main Street and Mill. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: On the same side of the street as the courthouse. DONAHUE: And was that still in operation during your childhood? BAKER: Um, it was in existence, um, but my grandfather, uh, did not age well, and so I&#039 ; m not sure how long the business existed after I was born, so. DONAHUE: Um-hm, um-hm. And, um, did you have brothers and sisters? BAKER: I have an older brother who lives in San Francisco, a sister who, younger sister, who lives in Kansas City, and a third, a second sister, who lives in Seattle. DONAHUE: What are their full names? BAKER: Michael J. Baker, who was born in 1947 ; Gloria Baker Feinstein, who was born in 1954 ; and Barbara Francis Baker, who was born in 1959. DONAHUE: Okay, thank you. Um, I had the impression, from interviewing your father, that his parents were very, um, very open to change, they came to the United States, and they were, um, at least his father&#039 ; s father, Morris Baker, was, uh, hel--a founder of the synagogue, and had come, he said, from Poland, and was, come fr--had come from an Orthodox background, but he didn&#039 ; t hold onto that, the Orthodox tradition, he later became a member of the temple, and embraced Reform Judaism. And, uh, I wondered if you just had any reflections on, uh, what it was that made your grandparents kind of open to that change and, and whether that-- BAKER: Well, I interpreted what Dad said a little differently than you. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: I don&#039 ; t think that my grandparents were as receptive to the change as my parents. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Uh, my grandparents remained--well, my grandfather died in &#039 ; 46, so, um. He died before any of his grandchildren were ever born. Uh, but, uh, I don&#039 ; t, I think my, my grandmother on my dad&#039 ; s side probably attended, uh, the temple only because her children were attending the temple. But I think her main place of worship was the synagogue. Um, she died when I was young. Ten, eleven, so &#039 ; 62, &#039 ; 63, someplace in that area (??). DONAHUE: I wondered, because it seemed as if, coming from Poland, and from a place that had very, um, Orthodox traditions, and then coming to a new country, and, um, being willing to not keep kosher, and, uh, and being willing to have your children go to a Reform temple, where men and women worship together, struck me as being open, fairly open to change. BAKER: Well, I think, I think that statement is correct. Um, keeping kosher in small town USA is a challenge. Um, logistic-wise, and expense-wise. Now, yes, there was a butcher, uh, on Upper Street, I think, but it&#039 ; s a real challenge to try to keep kosher, uh, according to all the laws that are set down. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Um, and I think that my mother was always a member of the temple, uh, and my father became involved in the temple, uh, after he was bar mitzvahed, uh, and it just, it was easier. He doesn&#039 ; t speak Hebrew, uh, and at the time the services at the synagogue were in Hebrew, and it, uh, was, was just, uh, a more comfortable place for my parents, I can&#039 ; t speak for my grandparents. DONAHUE: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And what about your involvement, um, with the family business, when you were a boy? Did you have much awareness of what was going on in the business, and did you kind of spend time in there, in the, in the Baker Iron and Metal business? BAKER: Uh, I started working summers in either 1964 or 1965. Uh, so I was fifteen. I worked every summer, I sometimes worked Christmas vacation, or, once I got into high school. So I, I really was the only one of the four children that spent any time at the office. Uh, probably my sophomore year of college, I realized that I had an opportunity, and so I told my father that I would be coming back to Lexington after I graduated in &#039 ; 72, uh, to work with him. He was excited, this is, you know, whenever you have a family business, you always hope that one of your offspring is going to, uh, show an interest in coming back to the family business. Uh, there was never any pressure, so it wasn&#039 ; t like, &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; re the designated one that&#039 ; s coming back to, to Lexington.&quot ; But, as I said, none of the other members of my family showed any real interest in doing this, so. It worked out fine. DONAHUE: So when you were fifteen and sixteen, and started going over to the office, was that out of any kind of family pressure at all, or was that-- BAKER: No-- DONAHUE: --just your own decision? BAKER: No, it was my own decision to make some money--(laughs)--it wasn&#039 ; t any other reason, so. DONAHUE: And when you got there, were you interested in what was going on there, did you get, uh, engaged by the business end of it? BAKER: Well, in, in the, my early years, it was strictly clerical work. Uh, I might answer the phone, uh, might be cashier, paying customers, uh, but it was up until, uh, the time I graduated from college, most of what I did was strictly clerical. Uh, it wasn&#039 ; t until after I came back from, in &#039 ; 72, and started working full-time, that I got involved in, uh, in what was going on outside of the confines of the office. So. DONAHUE: Was your father, during that period, involved in all aspects of the business? BAKER: Yes, ma&#039 ; am. Yes. He did have a man that was working, had two, two people that had worked with him: a man by the name of Shelley Derrer (??), who was, um, I&#039 ; m not exactly sure what Shelley&#039 ; s title was, but he did some of the marketing, called around on some of the industrial accounts, and then he had a skill man that had been with him for twenty-plus years, uh, that he relied on, who opened up the business every morning, and, uh, knew all the customers that came in across the scale. So he was very valuable. Uh, but Dad did the vast majority of the marketing, called on many of the industrial plants that we did business with, so. DONAHUE: Going back to your family background and, a bit, you mentioned that it was important to you to have family here in Kentucky when you were, when you were growing up. Did you, um, did your family gather together for holidays, or wh--how often? How, how was that family? How did you experience that family togetherness? BAKER: Oh. We always gathered for, uh break the fast, for, uh, Passover, uh, always celebrated one night of Hanukkah together, where everybody bought presents for everybody else, and the kids were spoiled badly. Um, so it was always, uh, a major event in our house, to, for that. Um, and then when we were a little bit older, and, um, uh, the family started having, um, bar and bat mitzvahs, obviously that was a major family event. And in the--those particular times, family from out of town would come to Lexington to celebrate as well. Uh, but for just the regular holidays, that was strictly, um, those families that lived in Lexington. But it was always, uh, always a family occasion. And that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s so odd, now, because I always had, uh, especially for Passover, we always had so much family living in Lexington, that we had no problem filling our table. Uh, now that we have so few members of, of our family living in Lexington, or those that are capable of coming, uh, we now have started inviting, uh, close friends. Uh, just because it, it&#039 ; s a, it&#039 ; s an occasion that you want to share, uh, and not just limit it to immediate family, so. DONAHUE: So about how many people would you have around your table, during your childhood? BAKER: Oh, this year we had twelve-- DONAHUE: --um-hm-- BAKER: --uh, we&#039 ; ve had as many as sixteen or eighteen, um, when my, uh, when I was growing up, we would have the adult table and the children&#039 ; s table, and you always wanted to graduate from the children&#039 ; s table to sit at the adult table, uh, and then always complained when the, one of the adults ended up sitting at the children&#039 ; s table, because it inhibited what the kids could do. Um, so I can remember, uh, going to, uh, aunts on, the aunt on my father&#039 ; s side, and the aunt on my, and the cousin on my, uh, mother&#039 ; s side, uh, where we would have sixteen, or twenty, uh, just because we had a big family, you know. I mean, they&#039 ; re f--there, there were six in my family, and then when you ask each of the cousins, you know, it, it grows without asking anybody else from outside of the family to show up, so. But they were always fun occasions. DONAHUE: And how did your parents approach your Jewish education? BAKER: Well, I went to Sunday School, uh, I went to, uh, Hebrew School, which was always on Monday afternoon, after public school. Uh, wasn&#039 ; t a very good Hebrew student, language has always been a challenge for me. Um-- DONAHUE: Was that mainly to learn for your bar--for the purposes of your bar mitzvah? BAKER: Yes. Strictly for my bar mitzvah, yeah. And so it, you are, it&#039 ; s--forty years ago, fifty years ago, when I did this--(laughs)--it was more memorization than being able to pick up a book and read what, uh, what was on the printed page. Uh, hopefully they&#039 ; re doing things differently now, but when I went through this, uh, it was strictly, uh, at least from what I remember, it was memorization. So. DONAHUE: Did you have a sense of Jewish identity that was important to you, or did you have a sense of, of doing, uh, of fulfilling your parents&#039 ; wishes with your Jewish education? Where did that stand in your own psychology? BAKER: Um, well, I really don&#039 ; t think that it impacted me one way or the other, uh, probably until the age of fifteen or sixteen, uh, I mean, I knew that, uh, Friday nights, I wasn&#039 ; t going to be doing, uh, I wasn&#039 ; t going to basketball games, or, or things of that nature. And it was more situational because, uh, my parents were going to services. Maybe we didn&#039 ; t tag along, but my parents were going to services, and it just wasn&#039 ; t convenient to do other activities. Um, I think that, uh, because I missed school for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, really, those are the only two holidays that you, uh, abstain from going to school, I knew I was a little different. But it wasn&#039 ; t a situation that, uh, I was waving a flag and saying, &quot ; I&#039 ; m Jewish, I&#039 ; m different,&quot ; there were not that many Jewish kids in any of the public schools. I mean, we were spread out throughout Lexington, so there wasn&#039 ; t er, uh, if there were more than four or five Jewish kids at Ashland, or Cassidy, or Morton, uh, that really was, uh, exceptional. And those are the three schools that I went to, the public schools that I went to in Lexington. I went away to school for high school, uh, and that&#039 ; s where my, uh, I realized that there was, uh, a difference. So. DONAHUE: So when you went to Ashland, Cassidy, and Morton, were your friendships across the board, with Jewish and non-Jewish students? BAKER: Um-hm, most definitely. Yes, most definitely. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And did you experience any--any anti-Semitism at all? BAKER: Not in Lexington. No, I wasn&#039 ; t aware of, um, being treated differently, or people saying things, no, not at all. DONAHUE: Hm. Where did you go to high school? BAKER: Uh, Deerfield Academy, in Deerfield, Massachusetts. DONAHUE: And describe what happened, there, that made you feel more like you were-- BAKER: Well, it-- DONAHUE: --differentiated because of-- BAKER: --my-- DONAHUE: --your religion? BAKER: My sophomore and junior year, I didn&#039 ; t feel uncomfortable. I was surprised by the number of Jewish students that were there. And it was an all-boys&#039 ; school when I was there, from &#039 ; 65 to &#039 ; 68. Uh, it, there were 550 students, and maybe ten percent of the school, maybe a little bit more, was Jewish. But most of the students came from, uh, not very religious backgrounds. So the number of people that would go into the closest town, which was Greenfield, for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur services, were maybe ten, maybe fifteen. Uh, it just, uh, they, it wasn&#039 ; t important to them. Um, my senior year, I realized that, uh, some of the people that I thought were my friends, uh, were, had some anti-Semitic strains to their, the activities and the relationship between the, between us. Um, I, nothing I could do about it, uh, I didn&#039 ; t make any loud noises or anything, I just accepted it, and kept my head down, and finished out my year, and, knowing that I wasn&#039 ; t going to see them again, and life would go on. So. DONAHUE: How did that get expressed, what, what did you see? BAKER: Um, well, the thing that, that struck me was that the way you sign up for dorms, is you get X number of people together, and as a group, you sign up to be living in a, from a sophomore dorm, to a junior dorm, a junior to a senior dorm. Each year. And between my sophomore year and my junior year, there was a group of eight of us that signed up together, and all of us lived on the same floor. Um, when we got ready to sign up for my senior year, they made a point of making sure I didn&#039 ; t join them, the same group of people. Uh, the sad thing was that, because I signed up by myself, I end up being on the same floor with those eight people who had told me that they didn&#039 ; t want me, uh, to sign up with them for senior year. I assumed, because I was the only non-Jew-- DONAHUE: --you were the only Jew-- BAKER: - -I was the only Jew among the eight or nine, that that was the rationale behind it. May--whether I was reading into it or not, I have no idea, but so. DONAHUE: Hm. How did that impact your sense of Jewish identity, did that make you feel more--? BAKER: Um, I, I came away from it, realizing that, when I got ready to apply for college, I was looking for a school that had a larger Jewish population, so that, um, I had a greater population to pick from, as far as friends going forward. Um, so I applied to the University of Pennsylvania, Northwestern, and Washington University in St. Louis, each of them that have a, uh, higher percentage of Jewish students than most colleges in the United States, so. So. DONAHUE: And which one did you wind up attending? BAKER: I went to Northwestern. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: So. Long time ago. (both laugh). DONAHUE: What years were you there? BAKER: [Nineteen] sixty-eight through seventy-two. DONAHUE: What were your interests, and your hopes and dreams at the time? BAKER: Well, I went in thinking I was going to be a math major. Uh, what I was going to do with it, I had no idea, but I thought I&#039 ; d be a math major. And that lasted two quarters ; when, what I understood at math, and what they were teaching at math, were not necessarily the same. So I changed to social psychology, and, as I said, I decided, sometime during my sophomore year, maybe my junior, that I was, um, coming back to Lexington, so I was more interested in developing the people skills that you would need to run a business. I didn&#039 ; t necessarily want the--to go into a business program, uh, it was too late in the game to change horses, change courses. So I didn&#039 ; t do that, uh, that might have been beneficial, but it was too late in the process. So it, um, it was just a, it was a positive experience, as far as just developing, so that, when I came back to be involved in a small business, such as our family business, that, uh, I had some skills that, uh, developed over the four years that I was at Northwestern, so. DONAHUE: And what happened while you were there, that made you realize you wanted to come back and be involved with the family business? BAKER: I don&#039 ; t know if there was any one particular thing. Um, it just, I, I felt comfortable with the family business, uh, I saw an opportunity, I liked Lexington, Lexington had been my home all my life, um, and I just, I thought that would be a good place to live, so, as I said, I don&#039 ; t think there was any one particular incident or episode that caused me to, to say, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m headed back to Lexington.&quot ; It, that generation of young people whose families had scrapyards, it&#039 ; s surprising, the number of people from--who are a couple years older than I am to a couple years younger--how many gravitated back to their family businesses. I mean, the company that bought us out in 2003-- DONAHUE: The Cohen family-- BAKER: The Cohen family. The--both of, of the children, of the boys, that is, came back in the family business. One is three years older than me, and the other is three or four years younger than me. And both of them gravit--after college, gravitated back to, uh, being in the family business, so. DONAHUE: Did you have close relationships with some of those families, while you were growing in (??)? BAKER: Uh, I had none. Dad had the relationships, I didn&#039 ; t. My relationships developed after being in the business, uh, going to, uh, we have a, we had a local chapter that was based in Cin--Cincinnati, so the, all the dealers from, uh, Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky would come down--and parts of West Virginia--would come to Cincinnati on a quarterly basis, for meetings. And I would meet them, uh, I would see them at, uh, seminars, uh, national conventions, so because our parents knew each other, and because we had similar locations, uh, similar problems, uh, we kind of gravitated to each other, so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. I&#039 ; d like to get back and talk about that in a bit, but first, um, when you were in college, did you maintain a Jewish practice, sense of Jewish ritual, did you go to services, or--? BAKER: None whatsoever. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Did you miss that at all? BAKER: Um, no. DONAHUE: Did being there give you any, being away from your, uh, from Lexington, from Kentucky, from your family, and from your Jewish life here, kind of give you any perspective on, um, the, the community, that maybe you didn&#039 ; t realize when you were in the middle of it, growing up? BAKER: At the time, probably not. Um, when you are a college student, when I was a college student, maybe not everyone. When I was a college student, you were living at the moment, you&#039 ; re not necessarily, um, delving deep into why you&#039 ; re doing certain things. Uh, the only--uh, I&#039 ; m an avid sports fan for UK sports. And one of the years that I was at Northwestern, Kentucky played Northwestern in basketball. And both Kentucky&#039 ; s and Northwestern&#039 ; s nicknames were Wildcats. That was the only basketball game I went to in four years. And it was really nice, because I could stand up and say, &quot ; Go Cats!&quot ; DONAHUE: Right. (laughs). BAKER: And no one knew who I was cheering for. Um, my parents, uh, always made arrangements to go to the Mideast Regionals, and because, back then, they kept all the schools within a certain region, so Kentucky always played in the Mideast Regional. And they were the only school from the Southeastern Conference that got to go. We went to Columbus, we went to Madison, Wisconsin, I went to the Final Four in College Park, Maryland, um. Nah, we, those were the things that I thought about, more than, uh, the Jewish aspect of, of my life. It&#039 ; s sad to say, but that&#039 ; s the truth--(laughs)--so. DONAHUE: Well, when you came back to Lexington, after you graduated in 1972, did you immediately get back involved in, with temple activities-- BAKER: --I did-- DONAHUE: --and--? BAKER: I did. Uh, I joined the temple within two or three months after coming back to Lexington, um, because I knew a high percentage of the families that were here, uh, they got me involved in committee work, maybe too quickly, uh, and then I was asked to serve on the board, to run for the board. Um. After I&#039 ; d been here for, probably, seven or eight years. And so. Yes, I became involved. And then my wife and I were married in 1977, so yes, we were both involved. She had, she was born Jewish, uh, her family&#039 ; s, her family resigned from the temple when she was very young, but she knew how important the temple, and Judaism, were to me, so it was not a problem for her to be as involved as I was. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What&#039 ; s her name? BAKER: Ruth Gordon Baker. DONAHUE: Okay. So is she, it, the, part of the Gordon family that was also-- BAKER: She is-- DONAHUE: --involved in the scrap business? BAKER: She is. Was. They&#039 ; re no longer in the--but, yes. She was George&#039 ; s youngest child, uh, so. DONAHUE: How did you, did you know her through your childhood, then? BAKER: No. She is, um, four and a half years younger, I knew her brother and one of her older s--sisters, um, but when I left Lexington at the age of fifteen, she was only ten. So, uh, that, um, there really weren&#039 ; t any reasons for our paths to cross. Uh, and as I said, her father resigned from the temple, so as I was growing up in the business, I knew the name, Harry Gordon Scrap, um, but it wasn&#039 ; t until I went to her cousin&#039 ; s bar mitzvah, and I met her, and this was in, uh, 1976, uh, that I even knew she existed, so. And we started dating, I got mar--we were married a year later. DONAHUE: Was your commitment to the temple, uh, was there a combination of, uh, that it--let me see how to frame the question--did it feed you spiritually and socially, culturally, was it tradition, or what was the primary, what was the core of the importance of that experience, that connection, for you? BAKER: There definitely was a spiritual aspect, but I think, early on, the social aspect was, uh, much more important. I mean, here I was, a young, single individual, coming back to Lexington, uh, I was looking for ways of meeting contemporaries, uh, so this was, um, a good way of meeting that. And I&#039 ; d really come to the conclusion that I was hoping to find someone Jewish, and that&#039 ; s a real challenge in a small community, that&#039 ; s not related, or it&#039 ; s not somebody that you knew from, you know, umpteen years ago, so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: So, fortunately, Ruth filled all of those things. DONAHUE: But you weren&#039 ; t conscious that you were looking for someone Jewish at the time? BAKER: Um, I probably was. I probably was. So. DONAHUE: So how did you, um, how did your own practice of Judaism differ, how did it, how does it differ from that of your parents, if at all? BAKER: Uh, well, Reform has evolved. Reform Judaism has evolved over the forty-four years that I&#039 ; ve been a member of the temple. Um, early on, there was very little Hebrew, um, there was mostly--services were mostly in English, the choir, which my mother was, for a long time, was the only participant, except for the holidays, um, sang a few songs, the congregation very rarely participated. As things have progressed over the years, I think there is, uh, a movement to get back to a more traditional service, uh, there is an increase in Hebrew, there is a more participatory singing program, uh, where the, the objective is to try to get the, the congregation to, um, be an active part of it. I&#039 ; m old school, uh, um, I can do many of the prayers, I can follow along with many of the prayers in Hebrew. Um, I have no voice, so the singing is, um, almost verboten. My wife gives me dirty looks, so once our children were confirmed, which is the age of sixteen, the number of Friday night services that we went to has decreased. Um, I guess over the last thirty years, I can only remember one or two High Holiday services that I&#039 ; ve missed, um, but I look at it as, I&#039 ; m a past leader of the congregation. And there is a s--there is a support factor. To say, this is important to me, this should be important to the next generation, and if my contemporaries don&#039 ; t show up, then why should the next generation feel that it&#039 ; s important? As I have, uh, said for the last thirty-five years of leadership, I want to make sure that there&#039 ; s a Reform Jewish presence in Lexington for the next generations to come. And without the emotional support, without the, um, some financial support, without my presence, uh, I can&#039 ; t very well say that and not--if I don&#039 ; t show up and do things, then my words just are very hollow. So. DONAHUE: Has the--do you feel that the temple in Lexington has, um, kind of followed along with the mainstream of Reform Judaism across the United States, or, or are there ways that it&#039 ; s, that it does things its, its own way and has kind of had to work out its own identity? BAKER: Um, I&#039 ; m not that familiar with other congregations, other than what I read. Uh, I do--I&#039 ; m very close to a former rabbi that was here up until 2003, and I know how his congregation has evolved. And I would say, to a, a large degree, Temple Adath Israel has done the same, uh. I think that the, the movement as a whole has be--has adopt--has adapted, or adopted, a more traditional way of worshipping, uh, and uh, I think that we are part of that group. DONAHUE: So ba--then, getting back to the question about how your Judaism differs from that of your parents, in a way it sounds as if you&#039 ; re a little more traditional than your parents were, is that what you&#039 ; re saying? BAKER: Um, the congregation has moved that way. I don&#039 ; t know if Ruth and I have moved that way. Um, as I said, we don&#039 ; t go to Friday night services very often, uh, the service is different, it&#039 ; s not right, it&#039 ; s not wrong, it&#039 ; s just different. Uh, I don&#039 ; t have the same comfort level with the service as I did twenty years ago. That&#039 ; s just me. There are other people that have been here the same length of time, and have gone through the same slow changes, and are ecstatic with it. It&#039 ; s just whatever comfort level you have, and our comfort level is not, uh, as great as others, so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: So I--yes, the Temple Adath Israel is more conservative today than when my parents first joined in 1946, as a family, as a couple, um, definitely more conservative today than, uh, when I was growing up. Um, but there&#039 ; s still a few holdouts of people who liked the, the old ways. DONAHUE: And just to be sure I understand, the conservatism, is that because that&#039 ; s the, the way that all of Reform Judaism is moving-- BAKER: --I think so. And I think that, if you would ask members of the synagogue, I think, to a certain degree, they have moved to a more orthodox service. There&#039 ; s, they would still classify themselves as Conservative, but it&#039 ; s a more, um, orthodox service than, that it was twenty-five years ago. And I think part of it is the fact that there was a fear--this is my interpretation, never been said by anybody else--there was a fear that young people were being too assimilated within the larger community. And, if they didn&#039 ; t become immersed, to a certain degree, in Hebrew, and didn&#039 ; t feel comfortable, then the chances of them continuing to, being Jewish, whether Reform or Conservative, going forward, uh, were probably diminished. Uh, so. The Jewish community has, um, significant problems as far as numbers. And the assimilation rate, intermarried rates, are very high, and if the, if one or--th--one of the spouses is not, uh, very very comfortable, then the chances of that family remaining Jewish, uh, go down pretty significantly, I would think. DONAHUE: There was a time, wasn&#039 ; t there--tell me if I&#039 ; m wrong about this, but--when, um, interfaith couples wouldn&#039 ; t have been as welcomed, maybe, in the temple, as they are today? Isn&#039 ; t that right? BAKER: Oh, I think that, um, well. I can only speak for the last thirty-five years, f--for me. And it has been very welcoming and, because there were, as I was growing up, there were many interfaith families, um, and I think that over time, they realized that th--th--the powers that be, the leaders of the movement, realized that they had to do even more, or they were going to lose a significant portion of the Jewish population to either not being involved, or becoming involved in another religion. So they, they wanted to reach out to the non-Jewish spouse, not necessarily to convert them, but for them to feel comfortable. And many of my contemporaries, uh, have non-Jewish spouses who have been very involved, um, never converted. Some have, but not, some haven&#039 ; t. But it was, um, I think that the, the welcoming portion of it, uh, was a critical factor in keeping some of them Jewish, and raising their families Jewish. So. DONAHUE: Did conversations like that come up during your time on the board? BAKER: Oh, most definitely. DONAHUE: Um-hm? BAKER: Most definitely. Because we had to try to figure out, um, what we could do as far as outreach, uh, there was always the question by the rabbis, as far as, uh, when a family was bar or batm--having a bar or bat mitzvah, what level of participation the non-Jewish spouse was going to be able to, how they were going to be able to participate. Um, so, and other than doing prayers, uh, the objective was to make them feel as comfortable, and include them in every facet of the service, and of the celebration, uh, as we could, other than that one particular portion. So when the Torah is passed from parents to child, the non-Jewish spouse, if they wanted to participate, was encouraged, um. For many years, the parents would sit on the Bima with their child, and the non-Jewish spouse was, it was almost insisted that they be there so that they could be supportive of their child, even if they weren&#039 ; t necessarily comfortable in, uh, the service itself. But if they&#039 ; ve made it to the seventh grade by then, uh, there was a, a certain level of comfort, uh, for the non-Jewish parent. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: So. DONAHUE: Yeah, I imagine if they&#039 ; re, if they&#039 ; re encouraging their child to have the bar or bat mitzvah, it means-- BAKER: Yeah-- DONAHUE: --that, suggests-- BAKER: --most definitely-- DONAHUE: --a certain level of commitment. BAKER: Most definitely. DONAHUE: And when you started being involved in the board, um, I read that, I read in the history book, um, the Centennial history book, uh, on Temple Adath Israel, that came out in 2003 or 2004-- BAKER: 2003. DONAHUE: Um, that, in order to be president of the congregation, you had to serve, I believe, for maybe eight years-- BAKER: Forever-- DONAHUE: --on the board before that. (laughs). BAKER: Forever. (laughs). DONAHUE: Eight years on the board, and then two years as president, and then two years following that as past president. BAKER: Well, the hope was that you would go through all of the different, uh, chairs of being an officer. So you would start as secretary, and you&#039 ; d spend two years there, and two years as treasurer, two years as second vice, two years as first vice. And then, if you survived, then you would go in as president. Um, I skipped a couple of steps along the way, I was never secretary, I was never second vice president. Uh, but I did serve two years as president, in 1989 to 1991, and then the person that succeeded me, when I would have been immediate past president, only served one year, and he moved out of the community. So I ended up serving three years. And then, while I was still immediate past president, one of the, I guess the first, vice president, resigned, and they threw me back in as first vice president, so I ended up serving one more year as first vice president, two more years as president, two more years as--so for--there was a period of time, there, I think, for thirteen years, I was on the executive committee thirteen or fourteen years in a row. Um-- DONAHUE: That&#039 ; s a big chunk-- BAKER: --so it was a long-- DONAHUE: --a big chunk of your life. (laughs). BAKER: --it was a long time. (laughs). DONAHUE: Yeah. BAKER: It was a long time. So. DONAHUE: And uh, what, what, what did that commitment mean, uh, in, in terms of your, your life? Uh, year by year, how mu--how much of a commitment was it? BAKER: Um, it was a lot. Uh, and my kids resented it. DONAHUE: Hm. BAKER: Um, I was president of the congregation before the age of forty, and when you&#039 ; re--that meant that I had a, uh, child that was ten, and a child that was seven. And when you spend a minimum of two nights a month away, and you go to committee meetings, uh, when you don&#039 ; t necessarily show up for some activities because you&#039 ; re either working or you&#039 ; re doing something at temple, um, it creates some resentment that Dad&#039 ; s being pulled away from something. And that&#039 ; s what happened, that&#039 ; s--no, I can&#039 ; t change it, that&#039 ; s what happened. Uh, we have we&#039 ; re--we&#039 ; re fortunate, now, in that the officers that were, the people that we&#039 ; re picking to be officers, most of the time their children are gone, or their children are a little bit older, so that there&#039 ; s a little more independence between that, the children, and their parents. Uh, but my kids resented it. No, no question about it. DONAHUE: Hm. BAKER: It impacted how they look at Judaism today, uh, because of the amount of time that I spent doing other things. So. DONAHUE: Hm. How did it impact that? BAKER: Neither one of them are involved. Both of them live in Lexington a moment, at the moment, uh, neither one of them, both of them are single, and that might have something to do with it. Um, our daughter was a member for several years, but she came away feeling it was more family-oriented, and there wasn&#039 ; t much for a single female. Uh, my son just moved back to Lexington, uh, seven months ago, and he&#039 ; s shown no inclination to, uh, want to get involved with the temple, so. I, I think that, uh, in this, when I was, when I came back from school, in the seventies and eighties, um, socially, there, this was a way for me to, uh, meet young families, young couples. And so Ruth and I were very excited about this possibility, because there were a lot of young families, our contemporaries, coming in--to Lexington at the same time. So we had a network of eight, ten, twelve families that we, or couples, that we saw, our kids grew up together, um, it&#039 ; s not that important to our kids now. So. DONAHUE: Were those couples that you and Ruth were socializing with moving in for university jobs, or-- BAKER: For a variety-- DONAHUE: --variety? BAKER: A variety. I mean, some of them were Lexingtonians, and once they got married, then, then the couples, um, became friends, uh, but there were some that came in from outside, either for--I mean, there was one that came to work for, uh, for the bank, uh, there was another one who went to, went to school here, graduated from law school here and, and stayed, he and his wife. Um, but many of them were, uh, native Lexingtonians that, uh, I grew up with, and once they got married, then it was just very convenient for families to get together. So. DONAHUE: So for your children&#039 ; s generation, there just aren&#039 ; t as many people for them to socialize with that are their own age? BAKER: Not through the Jewish community. Most of the kids that they, um, went to religious school with, no longer live in Lexington. Whereas, I was thinking about this as I was driving over, of my confirmation class, and there were probably fifteen or sixteen in my confirmation class, probably half of them still live in Lexington. It doesn&#039 ; t mean that I see any of them, but there was a higher percentage of, uh, my contemporaries who&#039 ; s, who remained in Lexington. Uh, and then there were people a couple years older, and a couple years younger, who have stayed in Lexington, either because of family businesses, or, um, they just took jobs in Lexington and just stayed. So. DONAHUE: Do you feel like, um, part of that, the generational shift, has to do with, um, if people are committed to their Jewish identities, that they&#039 ; d, that they&#039 ; re not, that they want to be in a, in communities that have a larger Jewish population? Do you th--or, do you have any insight about that? BAKER: I think that&#039 ; s probably a true statement. Um, I think that many of my children&#039 ; s friends went away to school and didn&#039 ; t come back. They met someone, they got married, they took jobs in other communities, um. How observant, how involved some of their friends are in other communities, I would be reluctant to say, I&#039 ; m just not, uh, I haven&#039 ; t followed the, tracked, of, of what they&#039 ; ve done since they left Lexington, so I can&#039 ; t say. So. DONAHUE: And then, when you said earlier that you feel that you&#039 ; ve stayed involved with the temple primarily because you have invested so much in keeping Reform Judaism alive in this community, um, can you kind of describe what, what the heart of what you want to keep alive is, what part of that tradition means the mo--means the most to you? BAKER: Um, I want the next generation of kids to appreciate a Jewish life. Without a Ref--and there&#039 ; s a difference between a Reform, and a Conservative, and an Orthodox, obviously--ah, and you have certain freedoms, being Reform, that you certainly don&#039 ; t have as, being, through, or--Orthodox. Uh, you have a few more freedoms than you do when you&#039 ; re being Conserv--in a Conservative background. But I, I want to make sure it&#039 ; s an option that&#039 ; s available. Um-- DONAHUE: Which of those freedoms are most meaningful to you? BAKER: Um, haven&#039 ; t thought about that, that&#039 ; s an interesting question. Um-- DONAHUE: We can come back to it if you want-- BAKER: Okay, I&#039 ; ll have to think about that. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: But the, for a long time, not to change the subject, but for a long time, the temple was very small, 175 families, and then there was an explosion of new families coming in, y--to Lexington, as we discussed before. Either because of business, because of, uh, the university, the VA hospital brought many families, uh, to Lexington. And the congregation grew significantly. Uh, 1985, 1986, we finally reached 300 families. Well, for a congregation that had been sitting in the 175, 200 for a long time, that was a fifty percent increase, as far as families were concerned. Uh, when I was going to religious school, there were probably--or, well, when my kids were going to religious school--there were probably 140 kids in religious school, from Pre-K up to tenth grade. Now, we have sixty-five. The congregation is getting older, the influx of younger families has--I won&#039 ; t say stopped, but it&#039 ; s not as significant as it was years ago. The university is not attracting the same number of Jewish families that they were before, where there&#039 ; d be, from the hospital or from the, uh, the rest of the university, uh, business is not expanding in Lexington, so there&#039 ; s a real challenge, as far as finding, or attracting, people to, to join the temple. So when you lose somebody, either because of death, or because they no longer want to be involved, that has a significant impact on a wide range of things, and because one of the issues that is most critical to me is the financial aspect of it, uh, when we lose members, uh, the financial support, your base, dwindles as well. And as we are aging, that population--my father&#039 ; s contemporaries, um, who have been extremely supportive, both financially, and spiritually, and so many other ways--five years from now, ten years from now, they&#039 ; re not going to be there. Who&#039 ; s going to be the n--who&#039 ; s going to step up to do the things that they have been doing for a long, long time? And, unless you develop a strong sense of being, of necessity, of responsibility, um, the chances of our being here, as we know it, as it&#039 ; s constructed today, twenty years from now, that&#039 ; s going to be a real challenge. So it, it, that&#039 ; s the important aspect, as far as I&#039 ; m concerned, is finding a way to ensure that the next generation, and the generation after that, has the opportunity, the same opportunity that my parents and my grandparents afforded us. So. DONAHUE: Do you see any paths to meeting that challenge? BAKER: No. I really don&#039 ; t--(laughs)--um, um, I mean, we&#039 ; re no longer of childbearing age, so that&#039 ; s, that kills that idea--(laughs)--um, most of my contemporaries are the same way, uh, and too many of them, their children don&#039 ; t live in central Kentucky. Uh, so. So I&#039 ; m not optimistic. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Sadly. DONAHUE: Um-hm. During your presidency, um, your two terms as president, what, you mentioned that part of your focus was, well, a lot of your focus was on welcoming people, and drawing more people in, and I think I read that you had some success with that, with increasing membership during those years? BAKER: Oh, yes, there was no question about it. But there were several factors. One, we had a, um, young rabbi, John Adland, who had a, whose family was going, was, was aging as, along the way, so, uh, he was participating in the education of his children along with other children, um, there was an, an influx of young families, and young families attract other young families. Either by word of mouth, or coming from another community, and it was important to have their children educated. Uh, so the, the population of the congregation, certainly, grew during that time. Um, and in addition to that, the, my contemporaries became more successful--whether they were businessmen, or doctors, or whatever, or professionals of any type--and we certainly encouraged them to be more supportive, financially, than they were when they started, uh, how ever many years earlier. So we had a posi--we were in a position, uh, of financial stability, uh, we were able to put money aside for rainy days, uh, so. There, there were some things that we were able to do that we&#039 ; re not in a position to do at the moment, so. Y--it, it&#039 ; s sad when a religious entity has to look at more than just the spiritual aspect of it, but if you want a full-time rabbi, you have to have the finances to do that. And if you want to maintain a building, you have to have the finances to do that. And someone has to look at the business side of a religious entity, while others are looking at the spiritual side. And if you don&#039 ; t have the two, uh, and if they&#039 ; re not both working hand-in-hand, eventually one&#039 ; s going to collapse. Or both will collapse, I guess, so--(laughs)--yeah. So. DONAHUE: Well, let&#039 ; s go back and talk, y--more about the ir--scrap iron business, iron and metal business. You mentioned, a while ago, the, coming, coming into the business, you started 1972 or 1973-- BAKER: Seventy-two-- DONAHUE: --and, um, how you had started to kind of get to know other families, from going to conventions, and meetings, and-- BAKER: --um-hm-- DONAHUE: --or maybe you could just go back to that time and talk about how it was, how you learned the reins of the, of the business, and also just, if you could reflect on, since the scrap metal business was so much at that time in a--among the Jewish population, or, or among the population of people who owned scrap metal businesses, so many, such a high percentage were Jewish, uh, maybe you could reflect on that, that kind of sense of community that you, you may have found there, in that business. BAKER: Well, there are two different aspects, and I&#039 ; ll, I&#039 ; ll address the training portion first. Uh, Dad made a comment, on more than one occasion, that, if he had his rathers, I would have gone to work for someone else before coming back to Lexington. Uh, because it would have brought a fresh perspective back to Baker Iron and Metal. Uh, I was very fortunate that my father had a core group of people who had worked with, for him, for a long time. And they realized that, eventually, I was going to be their boss. And they made every attempt to teach me, and were very patient, and wanted me to understand, not only what they were doing but why they were doing it, and how it impacted the whole picture, so that I would have a better understanding of the running of the company. Uh, the scrap business is a cyclical business. There are times when we are very busy, where the industrial accounts are very busy because the economy is booming, and we don&#039 ; t have time to breathe, we didn&#039 ; t have time to breathe. There are other times that it, the economy slows down, and the demand for scrap goes way down, and then you&#039 ; re really scrambling to try to find things to keep people busy, so you&#039 ; re able to retain that core group of people for the next boom period. So that, uh, I was very, very fortunate, uh, that they realized that their future was tied to my future. And they wanted to make sure that, um, Baker Iron and Metal was going to be there for the next twenty, thirty years, to keep them--and in many instances, their children--there were some whose ch--ah, followed their father, fathers, into the business, um, so we had second generations, just as I was third generation, uh, there were some that were second generation that, because they felt this was a stable business, that they could s--bring their kids into. DONAHUE: How many employees did you have? BAKER: Well, it fluctuated, it--it, I think at the high point, we were probably just over a hundred, uh, at low points we were probably forty-five or fifty, uh, that included crane operators, truck drivers, people in the office, uh, people who cut steel all day long. I mean, most of the stuff we did was manual, uh, we had laborers who pushed wheelbarrows, drove forklifts. Uh, so we had a variety--we had maintenance people, so we had a variety of people and, depending on the cycle we were in, we would increase or decrease, uh, our head count to be able to take care of the volumes that we were, were getting. Um, as far as the people that I became friendly with, the people that, um, were helpful, many of the dealers the, that my father was friendly with, came from small towns, relatively small towns. Middletown, Ohio, who was, that family, the Cohen family, was the one that eventually bought us out. But then there was another family, in Zanesville, Ohio, whose families were going through the same, uh, challenges, that we were in Lexington. Um, and it, it, so we kind of gravitated--ah, Kenny and Jack were both a little bit older, but because my father was close to their fathers, it just, it was easy, and we would talk on the phone, uh, we would buy material from each other, sell material to each other, uh. In the case of the Cohens, uh, they had--(cough)--they had a, uh, an industrial account outside of Middletown, Square D, which was in Lexington at the same time--(clears throat)--so my father and Wilbur would compare notes. So then Kenny and I would compare notes later on, because we were both bidding on, uh, those accounts, and we were, uh, experiencing similar situations, as far as the types of material, and the best markets for those material, to sell them at things, things of that nature, so. And then there were, uh, families in Louisville, the Klempner family, uh, we didn&#039 ; t compete to a great degr--ah, degree with them, uh, there, there were, uh, there&#039 ; s one or two families in Cincinnati, but uh, for a ci--for a city the size of Cincinnati, it was interesting that the amount of industry in Cincinnati that generated steel wasn&#039 ; t that significant. In the scrap business, those people that are next to a steel mill have a real advantage over people who are landlocked, like Lexington, uh, so there was, there were two steel mills in Ashland, so the Mansbach family was able to expand their business because they had a consumer there, there was a mill in Cincinnati, uh, initially it was called Interlake, and then it became Newport Steel, there was a large mill, AK Steel, in Middletown , so the Cohens had something where they were bringing scrap back to the mill, versus bring it--for example, if we had an account in Frankfort, we had to bring the material back from Frankfort to Lexington, and then ship it to a steel mill outside the area. Where, if a dealer in Cincinnati had that same account, he was already transp--transporting that material back to th--similar area. And if you lived on a river, you could ship material on a river, uh, much cheaper than you could ship it by truck or by rail. So there were certain advantages that, uh, other dealers had that we didn&#039 ; t. And then, in the mid-2000s, uh, early 2000s, turn of the century, uh, the next generation of children didn&#039 ; t necessarily want to go in the business, so there became a number of families, businesses, that became available. And the big got bigger, so that&#039 ; s how, uh, it was a combination of things. My s--my children didn&#039 ; t want to go into the scrap business, uh, I had some health problems in 2000--or, 1999, and my father thought, well, he had had the same health problems, I had a heart attack in 1999, and he said, &quot ; Why put Ben through this even longer?&quot ; So that&#039 ; s when we decided that, uh, if we could find somebody to buy it, uh, then we would, we weren&#039 ; t wedded to it, to, for eternity, and get out and move on to something else. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And--(coughs)--the Cohen family, did you, you described knowing them before, and you, and working with them some, um, were you, did you give them the chance, di--I mean, did you put out the word and far and wide and they just answered to it, or did you just make an offer to them? BAKER: I think they came to us. Now, whether Dad sent a message to the Cohens, that he would be interested, whether they had approached him previously and said, &quot ; If you&#039 ; re ever interested, please let us know,&quot ; I don&#039 ; t know all the inner workings of what transpired. Um, memory is something that you lose as you get older--(laughs)--um, so I just, I just know that, uh, they came to us in 2002, and we spent the next seven or eight months working out the logistics to, to do it. They had been buying up other small businesses, medium-size businesses, in the southern Ohio area, so it was not, uh, they were the logical person to, to exp--to expand into central Kentucky. DONAHUE: When you talked about how the cities and t--towns that had, that were near steel mills, had advantages that you didn&#039 ; t have, uh, how did your business adapt to not having those advantages, and how did, how did you compete? BAKER: Um, in certain situations, we couldn&#039 ; t. On ferrous, on steel and cast. On non-ferrous, it wasn&#039 ; t as much of a problem. But on ferrous items, um, certain situations, we couldn&#039 ; t. Uh, so if we lost an account, an industrial account, to, uh, the Klempners, or the Blues, or to the Man--or Mansbach, there wasn&#039 ; t much we could do about it. DONAHUE: Was there ever a sense of, um, or--can you describe the sense, was there a sense of community among you and the other people in the metal business? Um, or was there a sense that you were competing with each other enough that you, or, or even that there was enough distance between you, physically, that you didn&#039 ; t get to form personal relationships? BAKER: Um, I think, for the most part, the--you were selective. I think that there were certain geographical areas where people didn&#039 ; t bother you and you didn&#039 ; t bother them, uh, just because, after a while, transportation costs, if you&#039 ; re moving it by truck, just it got to be pro--prohibitive. So we wouldn&#039 ; t go into Cincinnati to pull scrap back to Lexington. It was not unusual for someone to do it the other way, but it wasn&#039 ; t--so the Cohens never really came down here, uh, the Mansbach would only come down to Morehead, or Mount Sterling, the dealers out of, uh, out of Louisville very rarely came into central Kentucky. But you h--have a dealer in Frankfort that was very competitive, and he was faced with very similar problems to, to what we were faced with. Um, so I think, as far as the relationship between the dealers in these small--in Middletown, and Zanesville, and Columbus, and--I think that, uh, it just evolved and there really wasn&#039 ; t, uh, I think that it was, we didn&#039 ; t necessarily go seek each other out, but when we saw each other, there was a mutual understanding of the challenges that one faces, being in a small business. So. DONAHUE: I&#039 ; m interested in what the atmosphere was like at the, at the conventions, and at the meetings, if you have Jewish b--if you have businesspeople from all over the place who, the majority of whom were Jewish, was there any particular, um, would, would somebody who just walked in have noticed, in some way, that there was a-- BAKER: No-- DONAHUE: There wasn&#039 ; t particular food that-- BAKER: --no-- DONAHUE: --was, like, or, or-- BAKER: --no. No, I think that the, um, I mean, I, I don&#039 ; t ever remember seeing shrimp being served, and we didn&#039 ; t have pork for any of the meals-- DONAHUE: --no bacon for breakfast? (laughs). BAKER: No, but, uh, I think that, you know, most of those places, you end up having chicken, or you have steak, and go from there, but no, I think that it was just understood. Because there was a, you have no way of knowing if, how observant one dealer was, versus how unobservant another one was, so why offend anybody? You know. And then, and many of the people that they hired were not necessarily Jewish, uh, many of the, and because the, um, brokerage firms that would buy, that were s--that were, the middle man between the steel mill and the dealer, they weren&#039 ; t necessarily Jewish, so it--everybody was there for one objective, and that was either to learn, or for the social aspect of it, uh, it wasn&#039 ; t necessarily a religious ac--activity at all. There was none of that whatsoever. DONAHUE: D--did you ever encounter conversations, or, um, or any g--hear any sign of people talking about maybe experiencing anti-Semitism in, within the business? BAKER: No. No. DONAHUE: You didn&#039 ; t experience anything l--like that yourself? BAKER: No. I mean, it might have occurred, there might have been an industrial account that said, that weren&#039 ; t going to do business with us, but it was not overt. Uh, I mean, I didn&#039 ; t know what the thinking was on the dec--I didn&#039 ; t know what the decision-making process was when an industrial account made a decision to do business with X versus Y, uh. You know, they could say, &quot ; Well, your price wasn&#039 ; t as good,&quot ; our price might have been better, but there was something else, another factor involved, I have no idea. But it was not overt. DONAHUE: And your employees, would, did, was the, were the relationships-- BAKER: No. DONAHUE: Pretty good? Did they express curiosity about Judaism? BAKER: Very rarely, very rarely. It, we were, well. The gates were closed on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but our employees still came to work. So it was not a day off for them, uh. Many of those, because we still had industrial accounts that we had to service, so it wasn&#039 ; t a situation that we could say, &quot ; Well, we&#039 ; re not going to be here today, uh, if you have scrap that, if you have a container that needs to be changed, we&#039 ; ll come by tomorrow,&quot ; that just wasn&#039 ; t going to, that wasn&#039 ; t going to happen, so we had to be available, uh, for whenever industrial accounts needed us. Uh, so th--but it was never, I don&#039 ; t ever remember anybody ever questioning why you&#039 ; re not here, or anything of that nature. And I was at the office, uh, I worked at Baker Iron and Metal full-time for thirty-one years, and I don&#039 ; t remember it happening, so. DONAHUE: Were there ever times, during Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, when you had to be interrupted f--to do something related to business? BAKER: Um, well, because most people we were doing business were Jewish as, as well, so I mean that, you know. Um, I always went down to the office before services. Or I would end up going to the office at the end of the day, just to check in, to see what was going on, see if there were any questions that needed to be answered or things like that. But fortunately, we had, uh, great staff that, when push come to shove, they would always be able to, most of the time, they&#039 ; d be able to solve a problem if it, if they needed to postpone the answer, then they could postpone the answer, but so. It wasn&#039 ; t a situation that I was pulled away from services and th--you know, for X, Y, or Z reason, no. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: Didn&#039 ; t have cell phones back then, so I didn&#039 ; t, so. Once I star--once I arrived at Ashland Avenue, no one, uh, no one bothered me very much, so. DONAHUE: How, what kind of business relationship did you and your father have? BAKER: Um, looking back on it, it was great. But when you&#039 ; re living it day-to-day, you always have strains. Uh, you always, when you&#039 ; re thirty, and you think that your way is better than the way it&#039 ; s being done, I&#039 ; m sure I wasn&#039 ; t very diplomatic in some of the things that I did along the way. Um, but we had a great relationship, I was very fortunate. DONAHUE: Did he remain vitally involved in the business, up until 2003? BAKER: Very much so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. So were you kind of co--ah-- BAKER: No, I was running the business. He would only come in for maybe two or three hours a day. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Uh, but he wanted to know what was going on, he wanted to be involved in the, all the major decisions, when we were bidding an industrial account, he wanted to sit in on the conversation to, uh, to see if, uh, the margins were correct, and things like that. Uh. For the majority of ferrous contracts, you would sell the material the first of the month, and I would sit down with him and go over what we anticipated selling for that month, and things of that nature, so. Yes, he was very much involved. And I was glad to have the, the support and the guidance, and so. DONAHUE: I don&#039 ; t think you said what your children&#039 ; s names are? BAKER: My daughter is Erin, E-R-I-N, she is thirty-six. My son is Greg, and he was born in 1982, so he&#039 ; s now thirty-four. DONAHUE: Okay. BAKER: Wow is correct. (laughs). DONAHUE: It&#039 ; s good. Okay. Um, let&#039 ; s take a short break. Okay. Um, wondered, going back to your childhood and youth, just to pick up on a couple questions that I neglected to ask you earlier: did you connect at all with the larger Jewish community in Louisville or Cincinnati, such as, you know, through youth groups, parties, um, et cetera? BAKER: I went to camp, v--Reform Jewish camp in Zionsville, which is just north of Indianapolis, uh, I guess, starting my sophomore year. And that--sophomore year in high school--and that afforded me the opportunity to meet other young people from across Ohio, Indiana, West Virginia, parts of Tennessee. That was the, really, the first time. And that really was an eye-opener, as far as I was concerned. Uh. DONAHUE: How so? BAKER: Well, I think that, um, it broadened my horizons beyond New Circle Road. Uh, as far as meeting people, and experiencing, sharing, ex--sharing things with them, uh, so I would, I went to Indianapolis for New Year&#039 ; s Eve, a couple years, because I became very close with some people from Indianapolis, uh, I&#039 ; d really looked forward to going back to camp, um, the two succeeding years after that. Uh, I was away at school, so I didn&#039 ; t get to see any of these people during the year, when there would be conclaves, uh, so this really, it&#039 ; s a time during the summer, really, was my only opportunity, unless I visited them when I was on vacation. So this, that was a, a real eye-opening opportunity for me. DONAHUE: And when you talk about getting a sense of the world outside of New Circle Road, was it a spepe--specifically Jewish world that you-- BAKER: Yes-- DONAHUE: --were getting a sense of? BAKER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, my p--um, my parents had shown, we traveled a lot when I was growing up, uh, so I had seen, um, things, but I had never seen it from a Jewish perspective. And when you go to a Jewish camp and you&#039 ; re immersed in, uh, in Judaism, and everybody there is Jewish, it, you just, you share experiences that you don&#039 ; t have at a, uh, non-religious camp, um, you don&#039 ; t have it when you are traveling around the United States, or when you&#039 ; re going to Europe, or anything like that, so. DONAHUE: Can you remember any examples of the-- BAKER: --oh, just, uh, I remember Shabbat services Friday night, uh, where everybody had to wear white, and you&#039 ; d just, uh, you know, you, it was, everybody sharing, doing the same thing. Uh, after every meal, we would sing songs, uh, in my first year, you know, it was all foreign to me, uh, but by the, my third year, it, it just was very natural, and, and very exciting. I, I really looked forward to, uh, to doing that. Um, let&#039 ; s see, what else. Oh, it&#039 ; s just, um, Hebrew wasn&#039 ; t that critical, so it, that wasn&#039 ; t as major a part of it, but it just, it was just doing things with other Jewish kids that was so exciting for me. Because I really hadn&#039 ; t had that opportunity, other than going to religious school, uh, I certainly didn&#039 ; t get it at Deerfield, so this was a real opportunity for me. DONAHUE: So when you went to Shabbat services at Temple Adath Israel, when you were a young person, it w--it was different, was it different primarily because you weren&#039 ; t just with other people in your age group, or were the rituals themselves very different? BAKER: Oh. Looking back on it, I would say it was just the age group, um, this was, wasn&#039 ; t yesterday, it was the day before, it was a long time ago. (laughs). DONAHUE: Right. BAKER: So I, I&#039 ; m guessing it was just sharing it with people my age that was so exciting. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. About how many people your age were there in-- BAKER: Oh, there were probably-- DONAHUE: --in the temple community? BAKER: A 150, maybe 200. DONAHUE: That&#039 ; s at the, in, in Indiana-- BAKER: Um-hm-- DONAHUE: --in the Indiana camp? BAKER: Um-hm. DONAHUE: And then how many were there, roughly, in the temple community? BAKER: Oh, it would be maybe, there were probably fifty or sixty that would come to Shabbat services, but I would say the vast majority of them were, uh, my parents&#039 ; contemporaries, or, you know, fifteen years older than me. The number of my contemporaries, of my classmates that would come on any given Friday night would be very few, and even if it was for the High Holy Days, you wouldn&#039 ; t necessarily sit with them, you would sit with your family. So you weren&#039 ; t sharing with your classmates, you were sharing with your family. Uh, when I went to camp, I was sharing with people my age. And so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. And did you ever, at, at a certain point, get a sense of, um, Jewish, or get, get very interested in Jewish history and Jewish identity, sort of internationally, and what was going on with Jewish life in a, on a wider scale? BAKER: Um, the Six-Day war happened when I was--it was either 1967 or 1968, I think. DONAHUE: 1967, I think. BAKER: Yeah. So I was seventeen. And y--I became more aware of what was happening in Israel. The Holocaust really wasn&#039 ; t discussed a great deal, it was still too fresh in people&#039 ; s minds. Um, so this really was the first international incident, Jewish international incident. I can still remember, uh, the Cuban Missile Crisis from 1963 or 1962, whenever it was. Um, seemed--probably 1963, because my brother was away at school, and my parents were discussing, he was in, he was in Massachusetts as well, and they were discussing if they were going to bring him home, because they, was he going to be safer in Lexington than he would be in Massachusetts, in case something really serious happened? Um, but the Six-Day war, really, was the first Jewish international event that transpired. And then, obviously, the, the massacre, the Olympics in Munich, uh, was another, uh, significant international incident that, um, was very impactful on a young mind, so. And then you just, I don&#039 ; t say that I became immersed in it, but I became aware. And, because I liked to read about current events, uh, it was, uh, just natural that I would gravitate towards stories about Israel, what was happening. Uh, so. DONAHUE: And have you always followed Israel closely since then? BAKER: Um, I would say that I en--I read the articles, I listen to the stories, um, we visited Israel, and--(sighs)--eight--in 1993, 1994. Um, and I like to read articles about places that I have been because I have a much better frame of reference, so when, when Ruth and I have traveled to some, places that you wonder where they are on the map, and I see a headline from that particular country, I&#039 ; ll read the article, whereas I might not have read it prior to going? Well, the same thing&#039 ; s true with Israel. I, I have a certain understanding of geographic places and things, so I, I get an, a feel of what&#039 ; s going on. And then, when you read the article, you have a, it has a, it&#039 ; s more impactful to me than reading an article about Vietnam, or Indonesia, or something like that. DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: And, obviously, there&#039 ; s a, uh, religious aspect to it that I don&#039 ; t have on sev--some other places, but because I was fortunate enough to visit that, uh, it has, has some bearing to it. DONAHUE: How have issues of Israel and Zionism played out in the community, at the temple? Is there, is there a sense, an ongoing conversation about those issues at the temple? BAKER: Uh, I&#039 ; m sure there is. There are certain members of the temple that are much more strongly attached to Israel than I am, who feel very strongly, either one way or the other, about politics in Israel. Uh, I am more liberal in my thinking than some others, and so the, there are some people that I grew up with who are very, very conservative, and who, um, feel very strongly that Israel needs to, uh, squash their neighbors--that might be too strong a word, but uh--and who feel that they should be expanding to protect their citizens. Um, we don&#039 ; t necessarily have conversations about Israel, because they know where I stand, and I know where they stand. (laughs). DONAHUE: Um-hm. BAKER: And there&#039 ; s no reason to get into adversarial relationships if you don&#039 ; t have to. At least I don&#039 ; t, so. DONAHUE: What about within your family, have conversations about-- BAKER: I think that-- DONAHUE: --about Israel, and Israel&#039 ; s fate, been important? BAKER: R--no, it, it, I think all of us are pretty much like-minded, uh, as far as my immediate family&#039 ; s concerned, and uh, it very rarely comes up. I think, of the, of the four kids, I think I&#039 ; m the only on--only one that&#039 ; s been to Israel. Surprisingly. Uh, my s--brother and sisters and I have been very fortunate to see a lot of the world, but I think I&#039 ; m the only one that&#039 ; s been to Israel. DONAHUE: Why was it important to you to go? BAKER: Um, our rabbi was going to lead a tour. DONAHUE: This was Rabbi Adland? BAKER: Um-hm. And his children and our--and our children were within shouting distance of each other, age-wise, and there were another family that had a, or Harriet Rose&#039 ; s son, and wife, and daughter were going, so it just, it seemed the right time. My children were fourteen and eleven, and it just seemed the right time to let them experience this, uh. And I felt going with the rabbi was a much better way than us trying to do it on our own, he was going to show us things that we would never have found. And it was correct, so. DONAHUE: Did that have any impact on your Jewish identity? BAKER: Um, probably. Um, I think it just, um, it made certain things more real--just as when I went to camp and I was immersed with living a Jewish life for, for ten days, or two weeks, whatever it was--because Israel has a preponderance of Jews, you, you live the life, whether you want to or not. Uh, you just accept the fact. I re--I remember talking to people who come from certain parts of New York City, and joining a congregation wasn&#039 ; t important to them, because they were just living a Jewish life. All of their friends were Jewish, all of their neighbors were Jewish. Well, when you experience it in Israel, just about everything you&#039 ; re doing is from a Jewish perspective. Uh, so I, I think that it, you would be pretty hard not to come away with an enhanced experience, and, and your Judaism, uh, enhanced as well. DONAHUE: Did you ever feel drawn to being immersed in, in that kind of experience yourself? BAKER: No, no. DONAHUE: So no second thoughts about making a home in-- BAKER: No-- DONAHUE: --Kentucky? BAKER: No. No. I was well-established when we were there in 1994, and so. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Um, do you have any other vivid memories of Jewish life and ritual from your early days that just st--stands out? BAKER: Um, I have s--I have pictures in my mind that my parents took, of consecration. When I was five years old, and my--(coughs)--grandfather, and my father, were on the Bima with this tiny little five-year-old kid, and my mother was singing in the choir, so here were three generations of, of Bakers that, uh, were deeply involved--or, two generations, and then little me--ah, in the congregation. It, I remember that. Uh, there are little things. I mean, we had a, uh, teacher by the name of Edith Will, of third grade, and we made menorahs out of clay, and I kept that menorah probably until I was twenty. It was just a face, and it was ugly, but it was, um. I remember my bar mitzvah, uh, there are just, you know, there are just, the things that you can flash back on that are, are incidents in your life. Now, whether they were because I have seen photographs, and so the photographs keep, keep reminding me of them, or it&#039 ; s just that certain things are engrained, I have no idea. I don&#039 ; t know how the mind works, but that&#039 ; s it. So. DONAHUE: Mm. Was your bar mitzvah a significant occasion for you? BAKER: I was glad it was over. DONAHUE: (laughs). BAKER: Um, it was a, it was a challenge. As I said, my Hebrew isn&#039 ; t very good, uh, I don&#039 ; t like sitting down, or standing up in front of people and talking, uh, so to get up and lead the service, um, even though what we did in 1963 was nothing compared to what the, the kids are doing now, uh, it still was a, uh, I wasn&#039 ; t very comfortable. In the process--(laughs)--I&#039 ; ll leave it at that. So. DONAHUE: Do you have any grandchildren? BAKER: I do not. DONAHUE: Yeah, you said, your, your two children are single. BAKER: I have two granddogs, but--three granddogs--but I don&#039 ; t have any grandchildren. DONAHUE: Granddogs? (laughs). And did you h--have anything to add about your approach to giving your children a sense of their Jewish heritage, and Jewish identity, and how you passed that along to them? BAKER: No, I, I think that, um, the only comment I would make is that I gave them the tools. What they did with it after that, once they ma--matured, that was their decision. Uh, we didn&#039 ; t feel, by f--we encouraged, but we didn&#039 ; t insist. Because it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s their lives. And um, so. All we did was we gave them th--the tools. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Did the trip to Israel have-- BAKER: --I don&#039 ; t-- DONAHUE: --an, an impact on them? BAKER: As far as my daughter was concerned, it was another notch on her belt. Because she likes to count countries, and so this was another one that she could cross off her list. I hate to say it that way, but. The contest, and the original contest, was to get to all fifty states. And now that everybody&#039 ; s accomplished that, now they&#039 ; re trying to see who can catch up with their mother as far as countries are concerned. And our daughter&#039 ; s the only one that&#039 ; s competing, because everybody else said, &quot ; Forget it.&quot ; (laughs). DONAHUE: But the mind is such a complex thing, it might come out in some, some other way later. BAKER: That&#039 ; s true, that&#039 ; s very true. DONAHUE: And they, they attended, did they attend, um, Sunday school at the temple-- BAKER: Um-hm-- DONAHUE: --as well, and? BAKER: Both of them were bar or bat mitzvahed-- DONAHUE: Um-hm-- BAKER: --both of them were confirmed-- DONAHUE: Um-hm-- BAKER: --um, yes. DONAHUE: And you talked about how, by the time, in more recent years, there were, there were not as many, you had to, for the High Holy Days, you had to invite friends around the table because there wasn&#039 ; t as much family. BAKER: Correct. DONAHUE: Was that the case when you were raising your own children? BAKER: No, because, um, my mother was still alive, uh, I had aunts, cousins that were still in Lexington, that were mobile, uh, but uh, some of those cousins have moved away, and some of those aunts and uncles have passed away. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. Do you think your, uh, children, did they, um, get a--as invested in the holidays themselves, like that they would look forward to them, or did they, did you have a sense that the holidays were meaningful to them in the same way that they were to you? BAKER: Looking back, I would have to say no. It wasn&#039 ; t as meaningful to them. I think they were doing it because we did it, but as the opportunity has afforded themselves, afforded itself for them, uh, they don&#039 ; t participate. I mean, neither one of them were--came to Passover. Uh, my son was out of town, but my daughter didn&#039 ; t come to Passover at our house. Um, so. DONAHUE: I, somebody else we interviewed for this project talked about how, because of living in a majority-Christian culture, that Christmas was sort of challenging for him, because there&#039 ; s this sort of, the, the decorate your house phenomenon, and the have a Christmas tree phenomenon, that there was some social pressure to do those things. Um, was that ever a factor for you, or-- BAKER: It really wasn&#039 ; t-- DONAHUE: --for your children? BAKER: I mean, we, my wife always made a point of decorating for Hanukkah, um, and my son was married for about three years, and, uh, she wasn&#039 ; t Jewish, they were married by a rabbi, by John Adland, as a matter of fact, but I think that, during those years, there might have been a Christmas tree up, um, I didn&#039 ; t object, I couldn&#039 ; t say anything, my wife who, uh, grew up in more--many of my wife&#039 ; s friends were, uh, not Jewish, so she always was around a Christmas tree when she was much younger, so to her it wasn&#039 ; t as difficult as it was for me, um, but, as I said, we gave them the tools, and what they do as adults is what they&#039 ; re going to do. I can&#039 ; t change it. So. But no, I, I don&#039 ; t think that there was much pressure on us, as far as Christmas. DONAHUE: Yeah. And then have you had any kind of relationship with the synagogue? I know your grandfather was a founder of it. BAKER: Well, I was listening to my father&#039 ; s response to that. And when I was growing up, I knew practically no one from the synagogue. Um, there were a few people that I knew because they were old Lexingtonians, and their families had kind--our families had kind of crossed paths, and so I, there were a few. But there weren&#039 ; t very many. Um, a--and it&#039 ; s really sad, for a community the size of Lexington, the Jewish community the size of Lexington, that there were these two entities whose paths very rarely crossed. That&#039 ; s not the case, now, because I think the, the religious schools do more things together, and I think there&#039 ; s a--more activities between the two congregations than there once was. And a lot of it depends on the rabbinic leadership. If the rabbinic leadership, if they don&#039 ; t, if there&#039 ; s not a good relationship between the two rabbis, it&#039 ; s a challenge for the two congregations to do things together. Uh, the old Lexington, it was us and them. There&#039 ; s an influx of new families who don&#039 ; t have the history from forty, fifty, sixty years ago, and they say, &quot ; This is foolish. We are too small, our kids need to know each other, we need to interact.&quot ; So there&#039 ; s a much better relationship, today, than there was when I was growing up, no question about it. DONAHUE: Was that an issue that you addressed during your presidency of the, of the board? BAKER: (sighs). Not really. We had our own problems, and we didn&#039 ; t, you know, I, that was not a h--that was not one of the priorities that I had. So. DONAHUE: Um-hm. What about involvement with other Jewish organizations in the area, like the Jewish Federation, were you involved with-- BAKER: --well, when I was growing up, Federation was strictly a fundraising entity. Uh, and it&#039 ; s only been in the last twenty-five years that, uh, they have a camp, they have a social worker, uh, they have an executive director, and they&#039 ; ve expanded their horizons, as far as what they were, what they&#039 ; re doing, um. But, as I said, for the vast majority of the time, it was just a, um, fundraising, uh, opportunity. And it was t--pretty much run by, uh, local or individual members, it wasn&#039 ; t run by, uh, an organization as it is now, where they have their own board, and their own executive director, and uh, things of that nature, so. For--I mean, in a community of our size, there&#039 ; re only so many people that are willing to be leaders. And the Federation, from my perspective, was draining people from being either temple leaders or synagogue leaders. Uh, so during my time in the late eighties and, and nineties, I think there was a certain adversarial relationship, because if they found somebody that was talented enough to be a leader, they didn&#039 ; t necessarily share. Because there wasn&#039 ; t enough time, if somebody was working, to be involved with Federation, and be involved with temple as well. And it-- DONAHUE: Yeah, that&#039 ; s an interesting point. BAKER: And, and that made it very difficult, as far as training leaders. I became president of the congregation in, in the, when I was thirty-eight, because the congregation, our congregation, Temple Adath Israel, split over a rabbi. And many of those young families that were, should have been in positions of leadership, went to the synagogue. And so all of a sudden there was a void among leaders in our congregation. And that&#039 ; s the reason I commented that, now that we&#039 ; ve gotten people other than Jonathan Miller, who&#039 ; s in his forties, other than getting people, uh, we&#039 ; re getting back to the people, getting people in their fifties and sixties, which is, uh, much better as far as I&#039 ; m concerned. Because they&#039 ; re just, there are only so many ways that somebody in their thirties can be pulled. Well, if you, if Federation is trying to pull people, and the temple&#039 ; s trying to pull people, and the, the pool of prospective leaders is shrinking, then you can see that it just, makes it difficult. So sometimes it becomes adversarial, which is unfortunate. DONAHUE: What was the split over the rabbi that you mentioned? BAKER: Um, this man&#039 ; s name was Bill Leffler, uh, there was uh, there were some families that were not happy with the way he was working with the youth, and that just spilled over to a variety of other issues. Um, Bill came when I was fifteen, because I was confirmed by Bill, and he resigned when I was treasurer of the congregation, so that was 1985, 1986, uh, so he was here for thirty years. And it split the congregation, uh, there was not another congregation formed, which happens in many cities, but we lost some really good people who should have been officers of the congregation. So it sped up the process, for me and many of my contemporaries, and it&#039 ; s taken us fifteen years to work through that, to finally get to, uh, some wiser people who&#039 ; ve had--some more mature people, let&#039 ; s put it that way. (laughs). DONAHUE: Okay. Um, is there anything that you would change about your relationship with Judaism, looking back? BAKER: (pause). Not that I&#039 ; m aware of. Um, I was immersed when it was critical for my ch--family, uh, I have--Ruth and I have kind of withdrawn from certain aspects of it, uh, the educational aspect is not important, as important to me, now, as it was twenty-five years ago, um, the social aspect is important, uh, but our f--most of our other friends don&#039 ; t participate. They&#039 ; re members, but aren&#039 ; t necessarily active either, and, I remember when I was in leadership, and I was seeing what my parents were, were doing, and how they were pulling back, and their contemporar--their friends were pulling back, and I said, &quot ; This isn&#039 ; t fair to us, we need them,&quot ; well, now I&#039 ; m doing exactly what my parents did, so. It&#039 ; s unfortunate. But I can&#039 ; t change it. DONAHUE: But you gave, you gave a lot of, a lot of your life. BAKER: Well, I&#039 ; m still on the board. DONAHUE: Oh, okay. BAKER: Thirty-five years later. DONAHUE: Yeah. BAKER: So. DONAHUE: Is there anything else that I haven&#039 ; t asked you about, that you&#039 ; d like to add? BAKER: No. You&#039 ; ve done a wonderful job. DONAHUE: You&#039 ; ve done a wonderful job. (laughs). BAKER: Well, I don&#039 ; t know about that. You&#039 ; ve done a wonderful job--(laughs)--so. DONAHUE: Thank you so much for coming, and spending the time today. BAKER: You&#039 ; re very welcome. How does one get a copy of this or, you said you, it was available on their website, or whatever? DONAHUE: Yeah. BAKER: How does one do that, so that if someone in my family was foolish enough to say, &quot ; We would like to see your interview,&quot ; that uh. DONAHUE: Yeah. Are you still recording? Guess we, guess we could stop and have this conversation. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh062_jk022_baker_ohm.xml 2016oh062_jk022_baker_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh062_jk022_baker_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Benjamin Baker, May 13, 2016 Description An account of the resource Ben Baker describes his family's history, primarily focusing on his mother's side. His maternal grandfather, who was originally from New York, owned a clothing store in Lexington on the corner of N. Mill Street and E. Main Street, which remained open until sometime in the 1950s. Baker's paternal grandparents practiced Orthodox Judaism before immigrating from Poland. After arriving in the United States, however, Morris Baker helped found Ohavay Zion Synagogue in 1912. After his death in 1946, Baker's maternal grandmother attended Temple Adath Israel with her children, in part because it was difficult to maintain a more strict Jewish practice in a small Southern town. Baker describes working in the family business, Baker Iron & Metal, from customer service and clerical work during the summer as a child in 1964 to helping run the business full-time after graduating college in 1972. Holidays were a highlight for Baker during his childhood because they always involved large family gatherings. In recent years, however, Baker has had to start inviting friends over for holidays because many members of his family are unable to attend due to location or disability. He also discusses his Jewish education and identity and how it affected his childhood experiences, from missing school during the High Holidays and being unable to attend events on Friday nights. He became a member of Temple Adath Israel when he returned to Lexington in 1972 and quickly took on a leadership role. Although the role of Judaism in Baker's life was initially to meet other Jewish contemporaries, it has evolved into a spiritual force in his life. He describes the changes in Reform Judaism as a reaction to assimilation and intermarriage, trends in Temple attendance throughout the decades, and the relationship between Temple Adath Israel and Ohavay Zion Synagogue. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh062_jk022 Subject The topic of the resource Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Judaism. Lexington (Ky.) Religion Worship (Judaism) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video