2 10 50 https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/eb38955819342f8e096b3ebe1f1a73e4.png ef0efa00a48fd041ffacf12bf935da0c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lyndsey Armes Ruthie Sangster Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Grossman Interview Keyword Discrimination. Antisemitism Anti-Semitism Universities and colleges. Holidays. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. OHMS Object Text 5.2 2017oh216_jk046 Interview with Michael Grossman, March 24, 2017 2017oh216_jk046 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Families. Family histories. Genealogy Immigrants Jewish children Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Childhood Lawyers Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Lexington (Ky.) Discrimination. Antisemitism Anti-Semitism Universities and colleges. Holidays. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Michael Grossman Lyndsey Armes Ruthie Sangster 2017oh216_jk046_grossman_acc001.mp3 0 https://oralhistory.uky.edu/spokedbaudio/2017oh216_jk046_grossman_acc001.mp3 Other audio 0 Introduction Okay. So I'll start. A short segment in which simple introductions are made and Michael Grossman gives a quick summary of his life up until he moved to Kentucky. California ; Companies ; Company ; Personal background ; Personal history ; UC Santa Barbara ; University ; University of California at Santa Barbara Universities and colleges. 34.414, -119.849 17 University of California at Santa Barbara 169 Family background Um, so would you tell us just a little bit about your immediate family. Um, what were your parents' names and occupations? First, Grossman discusses his family's past and how his parents and grandparents ended up in America. Then, he talks about growing up in a Jewish community in Los Angeles, California Fathers ; Jewish neighborhoods ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Mothers ; Russia ; Schools ; Sisters Childhood ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Genealogy ; Holidays. ; Immigrants ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 34.0820, -118.359 17 Fairfax High School, Los Angeles, California 530 Childhood Jewish community involvement So it sounds like you lived in a very heavily Jewish community. How involved were you and your family in that community, and how did that help shape your Jewish identity? Grossman discusses his involvement in the Jewish community from grade school up through his undergraduate years, and how his faith developed over time. Bar mitzvahs ; Community ; Jewish awakening ; Synagogues ; Tulane University ; UC Santa Barbara ; University of California at Santa Barbara Childhood ; Families. ; Family histories. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 899 Post-grad and Notre Dame University So what drove you to, uh, want to pursue law and going to law school at Notre Dame? After graduating from the University of California at Santa Barbara, Grossman traveled with his wife before attending the most prominent Catholic university in the country, Notre Dame. Catholic ; Law schools ; Notre Dame University ; South Bend ; UC Santa Barbara ; University of California at Santa Barbara College attendance ; College environment ; College students. ; Universities and colleges. 41.705, -86.235 17 University of Notre Dame 1169 Career and life in Lexington, Kentucky and South Bend, Indiana Um, so once you graduated law school, how did you, um, transition to working for Clark Material Handling? Starting with a conversation about working for Clark Material Handling as a lawyer, Grossman then talks about having children in South Bend and becoming more involved in the Jewish community. Clark Material Handling ; South Bend (Ind.) ; Synagogues ; Temples Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Lawyers 17 1396 Family's religion and conversion Um, so, kind of going back a little bit, uh, focusing in on your, uh, marriage, and then, I guess, dating before that. Um, did you focus on wanting, um, to be in a relationship with another Jew, or, like, how did that play a role? Grossman discusses the challenges he and his wife faced in trying to get married as a mixed faith couple, and how they raised their kids. He also mentions his wife's conversion to Judaism and his children's current lives. Conversion ; Kids ; Marriage ; Mikvah ; Mixed faith couples ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Rabbis Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 37.998, -84.471 17 Ohavay Zion Synagogue 1876 Becoming a leader in the Jewish community So, kind of coming back to Lexington, here, um, would you tell us just a little bit about, um, kind of your social network? In this segment, Grossman explains how he became the president of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass, and the difficulties of finding leadership in the Jewish community. Community organizing ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Presidents ; Social action Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 https://www.jewishlexington.org Official website for the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass. 2270 Anti-Semitism in Lexington Um, as far as coming to Lexington, and with it being such a smaller Jewish population, have you experienced any anti-Semitism here, that you would consider? Grossman speaks of his experiences with anti-Semitism within Lexington and how the community has been relatively free of discrimination. Although, he does touch on the fact that the current political climate has increased the amount of anti-Semitism slightly within the community, but not towards himself. Anti-Semitic ; Henry Clay High School ; Political climate ; Swastika Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion and politics 38.016178, -84.468991 17 Henry Clay High School 2359 Ukeles Report That's great. Um, shifting back to more of your time with the Federation, Dr. Jan told us a little bit about the Ukeles report. Grossman speaks of the Ukeles Report in depth, including what it is and what it was designed for. He talks about how it is a report created by Dr. Ukeles to show what the Jewish communities within central Kentucky need to do together to more efficiently save and allocate funds together. Jewish community ; Jewish Heritage Fund ; Ukeles ; Ukeles Report Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. 17 2607 Experience as President of the Jewish Federation Um, on top of that report, what were some of your greatest trials, triumphs, um, anything like that, during your time as president? Grossman speaks of his experience as the president of the Jewish Federation and his trials and triumphs through the Federation. He also speaks of its impact on the Jewish community and his own Jewish identity. Jewish community ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish identity ; President of the Jewish Federation ; Terrorism Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. 17 2860 Personal experiences being Jewish in different communities Um, looking more towards the future, what do you think some of the greatest trials for the Lexington Jewish community are in the next five to ten years? Grossman speaks of the different trials of Lexington's Jewish community and on the differences in his experiences within the Jewish communities of different areas he's lived in. He also talks about the impact the different Jewish communities had on his own personal Jewish identity. Jewish communities ; Jewish community ; Jewish community in Lexington ; Kosher ; Ukeles Report Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) 17 3280 Lexington Jewish community and connection with Louisville Jewish community Um, so, just out of curiosity, for us--the two interviews that we listened to prior to this, um, were people who were involved in the Louisville Jewish community. Grossman speaks on the ties between the Lexington and Louisville Jewish communities and the various Jewish organizations within Lexington. He also speaks of the potential for a physical Jewish community center being created in Lexington. B'nai B'rith ; Camp Shalom ; Heritage Fund ; Jewish community ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Lexington Jewish community ; Louisville Jewish community ; Signature Club ; Ukeles Report Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) 37.997942, -84.480164 17 Camp Shalom, The Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass 3836 Judaism's impact on his life Um, so, um, kind of starting to close and get a little bit more general here. Um, we're kinda wondering, uh, how has your commitment to Jewish life influenced and shaped your attitudes and feelings towards Israel? Grossman speaks generally about Judaism's impact on his life. He also details his ties to Israel and gives thanks to the interviewers and for the opportunity to tell his story. Israel ; Jewishness ; Torah Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 interview Michael Grossman is a Jewish man who was raised in a Jewish community in Los Angeles, California. His family was not very religious growing up, but following the Six Day War in 1967, he became much more involved in his faith and Jewish organizational life. Grossman discusses his graduation from the University of California at Santa Barbara, and how he started dating his wife, who was not Jewish when they met. He talks about the challenges of being a mixed-faith couple, and the process of his wife’s eventual conversion. Grossman mentions his time at Notre Dame’s law school and his long career at Clark Material Handling. He also discusses raising his children Jewish, and how that strengthened his connection with the local Jewish communities in South Bend, Indiana. He talks about moving to Lexington, Kentucky for work, and the ways he became involved in this new community. Grossman details his time as the president of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass and many of the different things he accomplished in that role. He acknowledges the challenges he faced being the leader of one of one of the largest Jewish organizations in Lexington. No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. audio Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2017oh216_jk046_grossman_ohm.xml 2017oh216_jk046_grossman_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2017oh216_jk046_grossman_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michael Grossman, March 24, 2017 Description An account of the resource Michael Grossman is a Jewish man who was raised in a Jewish community in Los Angeles, California. His family was not very religious growing up, but following the Six Day War in 1967, he became much more involved in his faith and Jewish organizational life. Grossman discusses his graduation from the University of California at Santa Barbara, and how he started dating his wife, who was not Jewish when they met. He talks about the challenges of being a mixed-faith couple, and the process of his wife’s eventual conversion. Grossman mentions his time at Notre Dame’s law school and his long career at Clark Material Handling. He also discusses raising his children Jewish, and how that strengthened his connection with the local Jewish communities in South Bend, Indiana. He talks about moving to Lexington, Kentucky for work, and the ways he became involved in this new community. Grossman details his time as the president of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass and many of the different things he accomplished in that role. He acknowledges the challenges he faced being the leader of one of one of the largest Jewish organizations in Lexington. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2017oh216_jk046 Subject The topic of the resource Families. Family histories. Genealogy Immigrants Jewish children Jewish families. Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Childhood Lawyers Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Lexington Lexington (Ky.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/eaca950c54245eea9f3401ef6db1e625.png ef0efa00a48fd041ffacf12bf935da0c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Katie Segal Jospeh Kingsbury Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeff Kaplan Interview Keyword The Parkette Subway restaurants Philadelphia (Pa.) Miami (Fla.) Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. OHMS Object Text 5.2 2017oh174_jk045 Interview with Jeff Kaplan, March 23, 2017 2017oh174_jk045 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Families. Jewish children Jewish families. Childhood Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Education Lexington (Ky.) Restaurants Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. The Parkette Subway restaurants Philadelphia (Pa.) Miami (Fla.) Anti-Semitism Antisemitism Discrimination. Jeff Kaplan Katie Segal Jospeh Kingsbury 2017oh174_jk045_kaplan_acc001.mp3 0 https://oralhistory.uky.edu/spokedbaudio/2017oh174_jk045_kaplan_acc001.mp3 Other audio 0 Introduction Hello, our names are Katherine Anstern Segal and Joseph Kingsbury. We are students in WRD 112, spring 2017, Writing Jewish Kentucky. Jeffrey Kaplan was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1959 and grew up in Miami, Florida. In 1992, Kaplan began his career as a businessman and moved to Lexington, Kentucky. Interviews ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Jewish Kentucky ; Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project ; Oral history 17 92 Family and early entrepreneurial experiences So tell us a little bit about your family background. Jeffrey Kaplan was born to Edward and Judith Kaplan in 1959 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. After the family moved to Miami, Florida, Kaplan helped his father run a small business despite his young age. He describes this aspect of his childhood as his first exposure to entrepreneurship, which would later define his adult career. Childhood ; Entrepreneurial spirit ; Family background ; Jewish traditions ; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Childhood ; Entrepreneurship ; Families. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Miami (Fla.) ; Philadelphia (Pa.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 39.952, -76.165 17 Philadelphia (Pa.) 277 Wife and children Um, we understand that you have a wife named Carol? While attending the University of South Florida in Tampa, Florida, Kaplan met his now-wife Carol, who is also Jewish. Carol originally worked as a speech pathologist, but later became a stay-at-home mother to their daughters Robin and Samantha. Robin, 28, works as a field consultant and Samantha, 22, recently graduated from the University of Eastern Kentucky. Chi Omega sorority ; Children ; Eastern Kentucky University ; Education ; Family ; Kappa Sigma fraternity ; Miami (Fla.) ; Miami, Florida ; Sign language interpretation ; Speech language pathologists ; Subway Corporate ; University of Kentucky Education ; Families. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; University of South Tampa 25.761, -80.191 17 Miami (Fla.) http://www.usf.edu/ University of South Tampa 556 Childhood in Philadelphia and Miami Where did you grow up? Could you describe your childhood, growing up, a little bit? Kaplan lived in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania until age ten. During this period, he spent much of his time with other Jewish children in his neighborhood. One particular memory involves his childhood friend Debby, whom he &quot ; married&quot ; in a traditional ceremony. This involvement in the Jewish community continued after he moved to Miami, Florida, where he joined United Synagogue Youth. Carnival ; Childhood friends ; Miami (Fla.) ; Miami, Florida ; Philadelphia (Pa.) ; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania ; Transitions ; United Synagogue Youth Childhood ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 17 http://www.usy.org/ United Synagogue Youth 806 Growing up in a Jewish home It sounds like you all, even at a young age, knew your Jewish traditions were --did you grow up, uh, in a very Jewish and religious household? While Kaplan has made efforts as an adult to follow major Jewish traditions, his family did not practice during his childhood. However, he did receive a Hebrew school education. One of his teachers was a Holocaust survivor, and the retelling of those experiences helped to solidify Kaplan's pride in being a Jew. While his Jewish identity was not challenged, his wife and children had minor incidents involving anti-Semitism. (There is a significant digression about camping in this segment.) Hebrew schools ; High Holidays ; Holocaust ; Holocaust survivors ; Kosher homes ; Traditions Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Education ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 17 1423 Beginning of his career Alrighty. Well, I think I'll take over the next session, um, session of the interview. Kaplan got his college degree in education and intended to teach business classes to junior and secondary students. However, during his internship, he was too overwhelmed and decided to pursue other work. He went through multiple sales jobs with companies such as Publix, MasterCard, and Audio Visual Innovations. Eventually, though, he became possessed by an &quot ; entrepreneurial spirit&quot ; and, with the support of his wife, became a franchisee for Subway. Distributive Education Clubs of America ; Entrepreneurial spirit ; Food brokers ; Franchisees ; Grocery industry ; Internships ; Marketing and distributive education ; Scott Paper Company ; Subway restaurants ; University of South Florida Education ; Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 2148 Opening other franchises Alrighty. Well, uh -so you talked about Subway as one of your franchise businesses. Um, and I've heard that you may have had like one or two more, that you've actually opened. Um, could you tell us about those companies? Prior to owning The Parkette, Kaplan worked with a friend to open other businesses, such as the A Cut Ahead salon and Sweet n' Treats ice cream parlor. Both businesses, unfortunately, failed. Kaplan explains that he learned from his failures and that, to be successful, one must take risks. Following these business, he and his brother Randy began selling Vienna beef hot dogs, inspired by Mel's Hot Dogs stand in Miami, Florida. This led them to the purchase of The Parkette. Caretakers ; Catering ; Entrepreneurial spirit ; General contractors ; Hair businesses ; Hot dog stands ; Ice cream shops ; Mel's Hot Dogs ; Salons ; Subway restaurants ; The Parkette ; Vienna beef ; Winchester (Ky.) Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Restaurants ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.031006, -84.453880 17 The Parkette 3012 The Parkette in Lexington Could you tell us a little bit more about the importance of the Parkette for--to Lexington, uh, such as like the business--to the other businesses in Lexington and like when it was open for the first time and when you took it over? Kaplan and his brother are the fifth set of owners of The Parkette in Lexington, Kentucky, which was originally operated by Joe Smiley. Smiley was not initially expected to succeed, but his first day of business saw unprecedented financial gains. Smiley's Parkette used the Kentucky Fried Chicken recipe, but was not allowed to use the name following a lawsuit by John Y. Brown in which he received a $45,000 settlement. Although The Parkette now uses a different fried chicken recipe, Kaplan and his brother saw just as much success on their opening day. City fathers ; Colonel Harland Sanders ; Colonel Sanders ; Joe Smiley ; Kentucky Fried Chicken (KFC) ; Lexington Herald Leader ; New Circle Road ; Opening day ; Re-opening ; Teletrace ; The Belt Line ; The Parkette Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Restaurants ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 3848 Advice to future entrepreneurs If you had one piece of advice to give to a young business student like myself or a young business owner, what would it be? While visiting his brother at Washington University, Kaplan sat in on a business class wherein a professor said that &quot ; surrounding yourself with good quality people&quot ; guarantees success in business. Recalling his own experiences and those of past employees, Kaplan tells listeners that having a strong work ethic and respectful attitude ensures success. Business advice ; Business partners ; Entrepreneurial spirit ; Hiring process ; Secret to success ; Success in business ; Washington University in St. Louis ; Work ethic Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Restaurants ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.648, -90.310 17 Washington University in St. Louis 4266 Dispute over fried chicken recipe One of the things that I found interesting was, um, you, uh, kinda had a dispute over whether you should keep lard in the recipe for your fried chicken. The Parkette's fried chicken recipe notoriously uses lard, which has been repeatedly challenged. Kaplan himself attempted to change the recipe and make it kosher, but all other cooking oils &quot ; failed&quot ; in customer taste tests. However, Kaplan believes the high quality taste of the chicken is worth not keeping it kosher. Cooking oil ; Fried chicken ; Kosher ; Quality ; Recipes ; Restaurant services ; Sysco Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Religion ; Restaurants ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 17 4489 Jewish faith and business in Lexington Um, so kind of going forward with like your Jewish identity, um, with your family and in the Parkette business... Through The Parkette, Kaplan has connected with the Lexington community. The restaurant has provided funds and other donations to various events, which is an echo of his belief that one should treat others as one would like to be treated. Regarding his Jewish identity, Kaplan and his family attend the Ohavay Zion Synagogue, which is more conservative than the Reform temple, although his children did attend schooling there during their youth. Jewish community ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish services ; Jewish traditions ; Jewish values ; Ohavay Zion Synagogue ; Synagogue services Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Restaurants ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.ozs.org/ Ohavay Zion Synagogue 4831 The Parkette and keeping kosher Um, there's one connection I wanted to make with the Parkette. Although The Parkette is not entirely kosher, some foods, such as the fish and onion rings, are suitable for Jewish customers. The restaurant also hosts events for the Jewish community, such as B'nai B'rith board meetings and certain fundraisers. B'nai B'rith ; Jewish community ; Jewish diet ; Jewish practices ; Kosher ; Outreach ; The Parkette Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Restaurants ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 17 http://www.bnaibrith.org/ B'nai B'rith International 4953 Events at The Parkette Um, are there any events, in general, that you, um, have at the Parkette, for the entire community of Lexington, that you would want to talk about? The Parkette hosts events for the entire Lexington community, the most popular being &quot ; cruisings,&quot ; or what resembles a car show in the restaurant's parking lot. It also served the Fayette County police department and other emergency services for free following a string of city conflicts. Car shows ; Community events ; Cruisings ; Drive-ins ; Jewish community ; Lexington events Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Restaurants ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 17 5087 Different Jewish communities Um, he's covered almost everything. Um, how would you say, uh, the Jewish communities in the different places you've lived, such as like Miami, Philly, and Lexington, have differed? Kaplan remembers very little about his Jewish practices in Philadelphia, but recalls attending the Beth David Synagogue in Miami and being involved in United Synagogue Youth. When he moved to Lexington, Rabbi Sharon Cohen had recently taken over the services and the Lexington Jewish community was frequently described as &quot ; close-knit,&quot ; on which Kaplan agrees. He closes out the interview by saying that anyone is capable of being successful and not to consider him to be special or unique in his achievements. Business advice ; Community in Lexington ; Jewish childhood ; Jewish community ; Jewish services ; Jewish traditions ; Judaism ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Social life ; United Synagogue Youth Entrepreneurship ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Judaism. ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Religion ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; Worship (Judaism) 38.040, -84.503 17 Lexington (Ky.) https://jewishlexington.org/ The Jewish Federation of The Bluegrass website. interview In this interview, Jeffrey Kaplan recounts his life as a Jewish businessman in Lexington, Kentucky, from his mid-adult life to present day (in 2017). Beginning with his childhood, he describes how he grew up surrounded by other Jewish children and was educated in Judaism. During this time, Kaplan had several unique experiences that cemented his identity as a Jewish person, such as participating in an imaginative Jewish wedding ceremony as a child, which included a makeshift chuppah and stand-in rabbi. However, his parents provided knowledge beyond that of their faith as well. Kaplan’s father was a store-owner in Miami, Florida, during Kaplan’s childhood in the 1970s and Kaplan claims that his involvement with his father’s work inspired his own “entrepreneurial spirit” – and Kaplan’s eventual business pursuits. Kaplan married his college sweetheart, Carol, and they had two daughters, Robin and Samantha. Kaplan and his wife kept a traditional Jewish home, which included kashrut and Sabbath observance, which was more ritual observance than he had experienced during his childhood. In his later adult life, inspired by his father and supported by his wife, Kaplan decided to become a franchisee of Subway Corporate. This venture quickly developed into a full-fledged career and Kaplan later became the owner of the Parkette restaurant in Lexington, Kentucky, which is now locally renowned. Although he attributes much of his good character to his Jewish faith, Kaplan insists that determination and the acceptance of his own failures allowed him to become successful in business. Through his running of the Parkette and his involvement in the local Jewish community, he continues to serve members of the Lexington community. In conclusion, Jeffrey Kaplan advises listeners to pursue their own dreams and desires, just as he did. No transcript. All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. audio Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2017oh174_jk045_kaplan_ohm.xml 2017oh174_jk045_kaplan_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2017oh174_jk045_kaplan_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jeff Kaplan, March 23, 2017 Description An account of the resource In this interview, Jeffrey Kaplan recounts his life as a Jewish businessman in Lexington, Kentucky, from his mid-adult life to present day (in 2017). Beginning with his childhood, he describes how he grew up surrounded by other Jewish children and was educated in Judaism. During this time, Kaplan had several unique experiences that cemented his identity as a Jewish person, such as participating in an imaginative Jewish wedding ceremony as a child, which included a makeshift chuppah and stand-in rabbi. However, his parents provided knowledge beyond that of their faith as well. Kaplan’s father was a store-owner in Miami, Florida, during Kaplan’s childhood in the 1970s and Kaplan claims that his involvement with his father’s work inspired his own “entrepreneurial spirit” – and Kaplan’s eventual business pursuits. Kaplan married his college sweetheart, Carol, and they had two daughters, Robin and Samantha. Kaplan and his wife kept a traditional Jewish home, which included kashrut and Sabbath observance, which was more ritual observance than he had experienced during his childhood. In his later adult life, inspired by his father and supported by his wife, Kaplan decided to become a franchisee of Subway Corporate. This venture quickly developed into a full-fledged career and Kaplan later became the owner of the Parkette restaurant in Lexington, Kentucky, which is now locally renowned. Although he attributes much of his good character to his Jewish faith, Kaplan insists that determination and the acceptance of his own failures allowed him to become successful in business. Through his running of the Parkette and his involvement in the local Jewish community, he continues to serve members of the Lexington community. In conclusion, Jeffrey Kaplan advises listeners to pursue their own dreams and desires, just as he did. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2017oh174_jk045 Subject The topic of the resource Entrepreneurship Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Families. Jewish children Jewish families. Childhood Jews--Identity. Judaism. Religion Worship (Judaism) Education Lexington (Ky.) Restaurants Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/4f4180649747c51e4f30f912d6342d18.jpeg b9c318631457eba82c54f2300aeac4ff Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Carol Ely Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fred Joseph Interview Keyword Architectural design. Architecture Holidays. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Race relations Racism Race discrimination African Americans--Segregation Busing for school integration Jefferson County Public Schools Archives. Archival materials. Jewish archives OHMS Object Text 5.2 2017oh035_jk044 Interview with Fred Joseph, February 3, 2017 2017oh035_jk044 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Antisemitism. Anti-Semitism. Families. Genealogy Jews--Identity. Judaism. Discrimination. Louisville (Ky.) Jewish children Jewish families. Worship (Judaism) Childhood Religion Civil rights Wesleyan University Education, Higher Higher education Washington (D.C.) African American leadership University of Michigan Housing development Lawyers--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Architectural design. Architecture Holidays. Fasts and feasts--Judaism. Race relations Racism Race discrimination African Americans--Segregation Busing for school integration Jefferson County Public Schools Archives. Archival materials. Jewish archives Fred Joseph Carol Ely 1:|12(3)|22(5)|38(5)|50(1)|73(4)|89(12)|99(7)|110(2)|126(1)|154(4)|173(5)|185(9)|202(6)|213(1)|226(13)|247(7)|258(1)|271(12)|304(10)|319(12)|343(3)|359(7)|375(8)|387(8)|407(1)|422(11)|449(14)|467(2)|479(6)|492(14)|502(12)|528(7)|549(1)|558(3)|572(9)|584(13)|601(14)|617(13)|632(11)|643(13)|667(4)|675(3)|683(13)|697(4)|718(2)|729(9)|739(12)|756(1)|776(9)|784(6)|794(5)|804(8)|823(9)|836(2)|856(2)|870(3)|886(7)|905(10)|915(2)|933(1)|957(6)|974(5)|994(11)|1006(4)|1024(12)|1039(5)|1052(10)|1066(9)|1081(9)|1094(4)|1106(2)|1118(4)|1128(5)|1148(3)|1166(13)|1183(10)|1196(9)|1215(1)|1228(7)|1252(7)|1262(2)|1276(9)|1291(15)|1302(3)|1319(3)|1337(11)|1354(6)|1364(7)|1380(12)|1412(14)|1429(4)|1439(12)|1460(11)|1471(9)|1482(2)|1504(5)|1519(1)|1528(10)|1538(13)|1548(2)|1570(3)|1591(1)|1605(8)|1623(1)|1632(6)|1660(4) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253433339&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family background Ready? Fred Joseph discusses his family's background, specifically how they came to the United States of America in the late 1850s. His father Alfred S. Joseph, Jr's family came to Shelbyville, Kentucky in 1858 from Württemberg, Germany. This family came from the German Liberal (Jewish) movement. Fred Joseph's mother's family came to Cincinnati, Ohio in the 1850s from near Hanover, Germany. His mother's name was originally Dorothy Cohn, but changed her name after marriage to Dorothy Joseph. Dorothy Cohn's side of the family also spent time living in New Albany, Ohio as well as Little Rock, Arkansas. Fred Joseph also had a great great great grandmother who was the daughter of a Polish Orthodox rabbi from Poland who moved to Copenhagen. His great great grandmother (on his mother's side) had two brothers in Denmark who became disaffected with the Jewish religion and founded the Baptist Church in Germany. He wrote a hymnal in German, the hymns of which are used worldwide.There is a reference made to the brothers on the church windows at Highland Baptist Church on Grinstead Drive in Louisville, Kentucky. 1850s ; 1858 ; Alfred S. Joseph, Jr. ; Arkansas ; Baptist churches ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Copenhagen, Denmark ; Denmark ; Dorothy Joseph ; Grinstead Drive ; Hanover, Germany ; Highland Baptist Church ; Indiana ; Liberal Movement ; Louisville, Kentucky ; New Albany, Ohio ; Orthodox Judaism ; Shelbyville, Kentucky ; Württemberg, Germany Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Copenhagen (Denmark) ; Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Hanover (Germany) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; New Albany (Ohio) ; Shelbyville (Ky.) ; Württemberg (Germany) 49.001, 9.5845 17 Württemberg (Germany) 306 Maternal family history So when your family arrived in America, you talked about some of the places that they lived. What kind of professions were they following? What, what kind of work? When Joseph's maternal side of the family first moved to America, they moved around a lot, living in Cincinnati, Augusta, and Little Rock. His great great grandfather was a friend of Rabbi Isaac Mayer Wise in Cincinnati. Joseph’s great grandfather, Mathius Cohn, published a newspaper, studied law, was asked to be on the first board of trustees at the University of Arkansas, and eventually became the first Jew elected to the Arkansas legislature. Mathius Cohn passed a bill that allowed &quot ; Jewish preachers&quot ; to perform wedding ceremonies that were recognized by the state. In addition, he was also the Arkansas representative to found both the American Bar Association and the American Jewish Committee. He and Isaac Bernheim served on together on AJC committees. Joseph's mother's matriarchal side was the Ottenheimer family, important in the Little Rock business community, education and library developments. Her maternal grandfather was a merchant, member of Little Rock city council, and the bank board. His mother's family's lives were part of the Southern, early German immigration. Alfred Joseph Jr. ; American Bar Association ; American Jewish Committee ; Arkansas ; Augusta, Arkansas ; Belvedere ; Bible ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Cohen family ; Dallas, Texas ; Dorothy Cohn ; Driving Miss Daisy ; Fayetteville, Arkansas ; France ; Georgia ; Isaac Bernheim ; Isaac Mayer Wise ; Jewish ; Judaism ; Kentucky ; Little Rock, Arkansas ; Mathius Cohn ; Miami, Florida ; New Albany ; Ottenheimer family ; University of Arkansas Augusta (Ark.) ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Dallas (Tex.) ; Families. ; Fayetteville (Ark.) ; Genealogy ; Little Rock (Ark.) ; Miami (Fla.) 34.746, -92.28959 17 Little Rock (Ark.) http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=6636 Mathius Cohn's page on the Encyclopedia of Arkansas 650 Paternal family history My, uh, father's family came to Kentucky in the late 1850s, and again, for reasons I can't trace, um, on, on his mother's side... Fred Joseph’s father’s family came to Kentucky in the late 1850s, where they owned a hemp farm on Hempridge Road. One of Fred Joseph's great uncles was the captain of the Shelby militia during the Civil War and a very highly regarded soldier. The group, known as the Mt. Eaton Sharpshooters, was known as a highly skilled group of marksmen in the Kentucky Militia. Shelbyville had a substantial Jewish population at the time, though people went to Adath Israel Synagogue in Louisville with Rabbi Enlow. Fred Joseph's father, Alfred Joseph Jr. rode the interurban railroad track between Louisville and Shelbyville, Kentucky. The interurban railroad track was faster to take than driving on Highway 64. Grandfather Captain Abe moved to Sixth Street, Louisville and put his grandmother in Louisville school. The other side of his family was occupied with stock trading and lived near the stockyards. Adath Israel ; Alfred Joseph, Jr. ; Arkansas ; Captain Abe ; Central Park ; Civil War ; Dorothy Cohn ; DuPont Manual High School ; Frankfort Avenue ; Germany ; Hemp farms ; Hempridge Road ; Jewish community ; Kentucky ; Kentucky Militia ; Lexington, Kentucky ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mathius Cohn ; Mt. Eaton Sharpshooters ; Rabbi Enlow ; Rabbi Rowe ; Shelby County, Kentucky ; Shelby militia ; Shelbyville, Kentucky ; Sixth street Families. ; Genealogy ; Lexington (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Shelby County (Ky.) ; Shelbyville (Ky.) ; United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865. 38.163, -85.126 17 Hempridge Road in Shelbyville (Ky.) http://history.ky.gov/landmark/kentuckys-neutrality-during-the-civil-war/ An article about Kentucky's role in the Civil War from the Kentucky Historical Society 938 A family of architects And, uh, you have some very distinguished architects in your family. How--w--start that story. Where does that begin? Fred Joseph has several distinguished architects in his family, including his grandfather, Alfred Joseph, Sr. who was with McDonald &amp ; amp Dodd. His brother, Oscar Joseph, also studied architecture, so the two brothers started their own firm, Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph, in 1908. They became involved in many major projects and had a specialty in distillery design, and designed Brown-Forman, National Distillers, Seagram, and Stitzel-Weller, the Jewish Hospital, the Jewish Community Center (JCC), Kneseth, and the United Way Building. Fred Joseph’s father and first cousin also went on to become architects in 1930s after studying at University of Pennsylvania, at which point the firm became Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph. However, this was during the Great Depression, so Grandpa’s brother and son moved to Los Angeles, California and formed Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph there while the grandpa and dad continued Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph in Louisville, Kentucky. His father was the principal architect for Morehead State University and worked with Frederick Law Olmstead, the designer of Central Park in New York. He also designed schools, a prison, and movie theaters. Alfred Joseph, Sr. ; Atherton Hospital ; Broadway ; Brown-Foreman ; Central Park ; duPont Manual High School ; Eddyville State Prison ; Frederick Law Olmstead ; Hazelwood Elementary School ; Jefferson Community College ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Jewish Hospital ; Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph ; Lions Club Eye Bank ; Los Angeles, California ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mary Anderson ; McDonald &amp ; amp Dodd ; Morehead State University ; Morehead, Kentucky ; Motor family ; National Distillers ; New Albany ; New York ; Oscar Joseph ; Presbyterian Seminary ; Seagram ; Stitzel-Weller ; The Great Depression ; The United Way building ; University of Michigan ; University of Pennsylvania Architectural design. ; Architecture ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.18888, -83.431 17 Morehead State University http://josephandjoseph.net/ Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph Law Firm's official website 1263 Jewish influences in architecture Well, they clearly got a lot of important commissions. Do you think that their being Jewish, uh, was a factor at all? Fred Joseph does not believe that his family experienced any anti-Semitism in the architecture world. However, he does note that Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph did all of the Jewish work in architecture, while Nolan &amp ; amp Nolan did all of the Catholic work. Grandpa was a Shriner for eighty years, and that may have had an influence on his style of architecture, but not necessarily a Jewish influence. Fred Joseph describes it as a Middle Eastern influence. He also designed the Temple and Kneseth Israel synagogue on Taylorsville Road, for which he did a lot of research in order to reflect the interests and ideals of the congregation. Antisemitism ; Architecture ; Bensinger Building ; Broadway ; Catholic ; Jewish ; Jewish Hospital ; Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph ; Kneseth Israel ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Main Street ; Moorish influence ; Nolan &amp ; amp Nolan ; Shriners ; Standard Country Club ; Switow family ; Taylorsville Road ; United Way Building Anti-Semitism. ; Antisemitism. ; Architectural design. ; Architecture ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Jews--Identity. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.244, -85.6748 17 Kneseth Israel Congregation 1492 Immediate family history Um, okay. So, let's, uh, switch back to the personal now for a minute, and, uh, your--tell me your parent's names and when and where they were born. Just-- Fred Joseph discusses his immediate family history. His father, Alfred S. Joseph, Jr., was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1912 and was a Reform Jew. His mother, originally Dorothy Cohn, was born in Little Rock and changed her name in 1930 from Cohn to Cone because of anti-Semitism. Alfred Joseph, III, (the interviewee) was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1943 at Baptist Hospital, interestingly, a Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph building design. Fred’s sister, Susan Joseph, was born in 1947. Fred Joseph grew up only a block and a half away from the Baptist seminary on Lexington Road. He believes that this was an important part of his growing up because he went to Clark Elementary School, Barrett Junior High School and Atherton High School. Due to his close proximity to the seminary, he did not have any Jewish classmates until he got to high school. Many of his friends were from families affiliated with the Seminary, while most Jewish families lived in the Highlands. Alfred S. Joseph, Jr. ; Anti-Semitism ; Atherton High School ; Atlanta, Georgia ; Baptist Hospital ; Barrett Junior High School ; Broadway ; Clark School ; Dorothy Cone Joseph ; Highlands ; Jewish ; Jewish tradition ; Joseph &amp ; amp Joseph ; Judaism ; Lexington Road ; Little Rock, Arkansas ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Susan Joseph Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Atlanta (Ga.) ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Little Rock (Ark.) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.2375, -85.6395 17 Baptist Hospital https://www.baptisthealth.com/louisville/Documents/6c591b83-c97e-4caa-b89f-ecc77ce629d6.pdf Map of Baptist Hospital 1667 Growing up Jewish in a Baptist community Did you find yourself in religious debates with your friends, or-- Fred Joseph discusses growing up in a community that was mostly Christian, especially Baptist, while he was Jewish. He went to Barrett Junior High School, where there were never sock hops so he didn't learn to dance. He experienced Christian influences in school, and would sometimes find himself in religious debates with his peers, but never felt pressured because he was a different religion. Anytime that there was a Jewish holiday, Fred Joseph would be asked to come to the front of the class to explain the meaning and significance of the holiday. Joseph never felt pressured to convert in these circles. Joseph describes it as a “pretty open experience,” but says that that changed when he went to Atherton High School. Social clubs were an important part of life at this time in the community. Even though not all of Joseph’s friends were Jewish, he could not participate in their non-Jewish social clubs. He was a member of the Jewish fraternity Pi Tau Pi and joined the Jewish social clubs. Fred Joseph believes that the Baptist seminary was a much more open place while he was growing up than it is today. He notes that Rabbi Waller got his doctorate in divinity at the Baptist seminary. One of Rabbi Waller's classmates was Monsignor Horrigan, a very prominent Catholic and the first president of Bellarmine University. Atherton High School ; Baptist Seminary ; Baptists ; Barrett Junior High School ; BBYO ; Bellarmine University ; Billy Graham ; Catholic ; Christmas ; Highlands ; holiday ; Jewish ; Judaism ; Monsignor Horrigan ; Pi Tau Pi ; Rabbi Waller ; Sock hops Childhood ; Education ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Religion 38.249, -85.696 17 Barrett Junior High School http://www.sbts.edu/ Website of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary 1866 Anti-Semitic experiences I've heard a lot about the social clubs at the center, and the important role it played in people's lives, but I didn't realize that it was because there were high school clubs that were restricted also in town. Fred Joseph reflects on some anti-Semitic experiences that he had growing up, such as not being able to be in the same social clubs as his non-Jewish friends. In addition, he recalls a time when he went to the Louisville Country Club’s pool with one of his friends and the lifeguard blew the whistle and told everyone to get out because there was a Jew in the pool. The friend’s family was then asked not to bring Fred Joseph back if they wanted to continue to be members of the country club. As a result, the family withdrew from the country club. However, this was not the only anti-Semitic experience Fred Joseph had in Louisville, Kentucky. When he moved back to Louisville from Washington in 1972, he was told by several major law firms that they don’t interview Jews. While in Louisville, Fred Joseph was a member of a firm that was very active in the Pendennis Club. The Pendennis Club asked Joseph to become a member because they were trying to transition to being less religiously restrictive of their members. In addition, the Louisville neighborhood of Indian Hills was effectively redlined against Jews and African Americans. Many of the deeds in Indian Hills contained anti-Israelite and anti-black language. Anti-black ; Anti-Israelite ; Anti-Semitism ; Bingham family ; Glenview ; Indian Hills ; Jewish ; John Yarmuth ; Judaism ; Louisville Country Club ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Pendennis Club ; Race relations ; Racism ; Sunday school ; Washington Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Race discrimination--Kentucky 38.279, -85.677 17 Louisville Country Club http://www.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=a73ce5ba85ce4c3f80d365ab1ff89010 A Map and History of Redlining in Louisville, Kentucky (including Indian Hills) 2108 Judaism growing up Well, circling back a little bit, in--growing up in your family, what kind of, um, uh, Jewish education did you have? What kind of Judaism did your parents practice? What, what was your relationship to that? Fred Joseph grew up in a reform Jewish household, members of the Adath Israel congregation. His family went to synagogue on high holidays and he attended Sunday school. They had a Christmas tree every year. In addition, Fred Joseph was not bar mitzvahed and had never attended a bar mitzvah until after college. Alfred Joseph, Jr. and Dorothy Cohn were close friends with Rabbi and Mrs. Waller and Rabbi and Mrs. Rowe. Fred Joseph also went to a summer camp in Wisconsin that was primarily Jewish but had no Jewish activities. Adath Israel Brith Shalom ; Alfred Joseph, Jr. ; Assimilation ; Christmas ; Dorothy Cohn ; High holidays ; Jewish ; Jewish camps ; Jewish education ; Judaism ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Passover ; Rabbi and Mrs. Rowe ; Rabbi and Mrs. Waller ; Social norms ; Sunday school ; Synagogues ; Washington ; Wisconsin Childhood ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Worship (Judaism) 38.2919, -85.6295 17 Adath Israel Brith Shalom 2299 Parents' ties to Judaism And, uh, when you were growing up, did your--was your father involved in the Jewish community? Um, the organized Jewish community, with any groups or? Fred Joseph’s father, Alfred Joseph, Jr., was not very active in the organized Jewish community but Fred’s mother, Dorothy Joseph, was very active. She was very involved in the National Council of Jewish Women. Dorothy Joseph was influenced to join the National Council of Jewish Women by her mother, Helen Joseph, who had been president of the National Council of Jewish Women in 1920. Dorothy Joseph was very interested in mental illness and was one of the founders and the second president of Bridgehaven, a halfway house in Louisville, Kentucky. Although she never attended college, Dorothy went on to become the director of forensic psychiatry at Central State Hospital and received several national awards for her involvement in mental health. Alfred Joseph, Jr. ; Betty Jane Fleischaker ; Bridgehaven ; Central State Hospital ; Dorothy Joseph ; Fanny Rose Rosenbaum ; Halfway houses ; Helen Joseph ; Jewish community ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mental illness ; National Council of Jewish Women ; Shelbyville, Kentucky Jewish families. ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Mental health ; Shelbyville (Ky.) 38.2396, -85.7548 17 Bridgehaven in Louisville (Ky.) http://www.bridgehaven.org/about/ The history of Bridgehaven, from their official website 2451 Dubby Overstreet--Inspiration for his civil rights work Was there anybody else as you were growing up that was, uh, an influence on your life later? Fred Joseph believes that a woman who had a great influence on his life was Dubby Overstreet, the granddaughter of a slave and a longtime employee of the Joseph family. Overstreet worked for Fred Joseph’s grandparents, his parents, and eventually his own family throughout her life, helping out around the house and assisting in raising the children of each household. Although Overstreet was not formally educated, she was clearly very intelligent and determined. She was not afraid to stand up for herself and what she believed in and would not let anyone talk down to her. Fred Joseph attributes an early interest in civil rights to having a strong role model such as Dubby Overstreet in his life from a young age. African American ; Alfred Joseph, Jr. ; Alfred Joseph, Sr. ; Anne Joseph ; Civil rights ; Dorothy Joseph ; Dubby Overstreet ; Helen Joseph Childhood ; Civil rights ; Race discrimination ; Race relations ; Racism 17 2664 Wesleyan University And, uh, then where did you go to college? What was that decision-making process like? Fred Joseph stated that all of his camp friends went to Ivy League colleges which had somewhat of an influence on his college decision. He wanted to go east and attend a college that had no Jewish fraternities to avoid his experiences in high school. He chose Wesleyan University due to the recommendation of his Lebanese classmate Fred Kurim. He attended from 1961 to 1965, where he joined a fraternity with men of different races and religions. They took turns making a blessing from their respective traditions at the meal, and he delighted in the ecumenical nature of this. During college, Fred would still attend services during the high holy days at a nearby synagogue but he has no idea if there was a Hillel in the area. Adath Israel ; Atherton High School ; Black ; Catholic ; College life ; Connecticut ; Cornell University ; Dartmouth College ; Fraternities ; Fred Kurim ; Harvard University ; High holidays ; Hillel ; Jewish ; Judaism ; Lebanese ; Mormon ; Passover ; University of Pennsylvania ; Wesleyan University ; Yale University Education, Higher ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Higher education ; Holidays. ; Religion ; Wesleyan University ; Worship (Judaism) 41.556, -72.654 17 Wesleyan University http://www.wesleyan.edu/ The Official Website of Wesleyan University 2925 Race relations So, you were in college during a very pivotal time of change on college campuses. During Fred Joseph’s junior year at Wesleyan, his roommate was an African American named Ron Young. Young was active in Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), including in summer actions in Mississippi and the group that organized the Peace March in Washington. Joseph believes that having an African American roommate made the racial unrest of the 1960s very personal to him. Young accompanied Joseph on the drive back home from college in 1964. They had to make an overnight stop so that they wouldn’t be too tired. The two had to stop at eight different hotels before they were allowed to stay in a room together, at which point Ron Young had to claim that he was African royalty in order to be given a room with a white man. Ron Young is actually from Nigeria, but is not African royalty. His experiences with his black college friends inspired Fred Joseph to do his thesis on black leadership in Louisville, Kentucky. He received a grant to do so from the Falk Foundation in Philadelphia. Joseph wrote about the results of his research in a pamphlet published by the Human Relations Commission, for which he also worked. Fred Joseph also notes that Martin Luther King, Jr. gave the commencement address at Wesleyan in 1976. Fred's grandfather designed the Porter Funeral Home ; Woody Porter Sr., who headed University of Louisville's Board of Trustees, helped Fred meet Lyman Johnson and other prominent Black leaders. Africa ; African American ; African American leadership ; Alfred Joseph, Sr. ; Civil Rights Movement ; Cleveland, Ohio ; Dashiki ; Falk Fountain ; Fellowship of Reconciliation ; Frank Stanley, Sr. ; James Lawson ; John Lewis ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Lyman Johnson ; Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Memphis, Tennessee ; Mississippi ; Mississippi Summer Project ; Nigeria ; Ohio ; Peace marches ; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania ; Porter Funeral Home ; Racial divide ; Ron Young ; Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNICC) ; The North ; The South ; University of Louisville ; University of Michigan ; Washington, D.C. ; Wesleyan University ; West Virginia ; Woody Porter, Sr. African American leadership ; African Americans--Segregation ; Civil rights ; Cleveland (Ohio) ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Memphis (Tenn.) ; Philadelphia (Pa.) ; Race discrimination ; Race relations ; Racism ; Washington (D.C.) 41.556, -72.654 17 Wesleyan University http://www.history.com/topics/black-history/sncc A history of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee 3309 Picking University of Michigan Law School So, you decided in the course of this to go to law school? Fred Joseph decided that when he went to law school, he wanted to get out of the East because he was done with the condescension accompanied with being both a Southerner, a Jew, and a public school graduate. For example, Wesleyan University at the time was about 70% students who had came from, as Fred describes, &quot ; snobby prep schools,&quot ; such as Andover, Exeter and Choate. Therefore, Joseph decided to attend the University of Michigan to get out of the East and to a co-ed university. Andover ; Ann Arbor, Michigan ; Atherton ; Choate ; Exeter ; Harvard University ; Jewish ; Judaism ; Julliard ; Law schools ; Lincoln Center ; Michigan ; New York ; Prep schools ; Public schools ; Social classes ; Social life ; University of Michigan ; Wesleyan University Ann Arbor (Mich.) ; Discrimination. ; Education, Higher ; Higher education ; University of Michigan 42.278, -83.737 17 The University of Michigan https://www.law.umich.edu/Pages/default.aspx The University of Michigan Law School's official website 3452 Meeting his wife, Anne Cohn And at what point did you meet your wife? Fred Joseph describes how he met and got married to Anne Joseph. Originally, Joseph was dating Lynn Lewis from eighth grade through college. Lynn Lewis and Anne Joseph, whose maiden name was Webman, were friends at Sophie Newcomb Memorial College. Anne and Fred were introduced to each other, yet they had no romantic interest. Eventually, Lynn Lewis fell in love and married Dr. Ken Silk. Fred and Anne Joseph were both at the wedding, yet were still not romantically interested in each other. Finally, Anne and Fred Joseph individually moved to Washington, D.C. within the same week and began dating. A year later in, 1968, the two were married. Anne Cohn ; Anne Joseph ; Anne Webman ; Boston ; Dr. Ken Silk ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Lynn Lewis ; Michigan ; Sophie Newcomb Memorial College ; Washington, D.C. Louisville (Ky.) ; Marriage ; Washington (D.C.) 38.253, -85.758 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.kentuckyonehealth.org/dr-warren-chumley-m-d Kentucky One Health's Website ; Contains information about Dr. Ken Silk such as education, specialty, a biography, clinical interests and procedures performed. 3552 Working at the Office of Economic Opportunity So, um, back to law school. Fred Joseph explains that from the time he began law school, he knew he never wanted to be a litigator. Rather, he was in urban development law, and very interested in civil rights matters. His father wanted him to join the architecture firm but Fred was more interested in housing access. He worked with Gov. George Romney on the Michigan open housing statute. After graduating law school from the University of Michigan and failing to get a job with the new federal Department of Housing and Urban Development, Joseph accepted a job in the Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO) in 1967, which was the site of President Lyndon B. Johnson's War on Poverty. Joseph worked in the community action section of the OEO which initiated programs such as Head Start, legal services, foster grandparents, and a variety of manpower programs. The Park DuValle Health Center was funded by the OEO in 1968, and Fred Joseph did the legal sign off on that project. He speaks of working with Sargent Shriver and John Doar. Alfred Joseph, Jr. ; Civil rights ; Department of Housing and Urban Development ; George Romney ; Job Corps ; John Doar ; Law schools ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO) ; Open housing statutes ; Park DuValle Health Center ; President Lyndon B. Johnson ; Sargent Shriver ; University of Michigan ; Urban Development Law ; War on Poverty ; Washington, D.C. ; Wesleyan University Civil rights ; Housing development ; Lawyers ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Washington (D.C.) 38.227, -85.807 17 Park DuValle Health Center https://www.britannica.com/topic/War-on-Poverty A history of the War on Poverty 3877 Living in Washington, D.C. So when you lived in Washington--and what years were you in Washington? Fred Joseph lived in Washington, D.C. from summer 1967 through 1972 in Georgetown, working in Dupont Circle. After marrying Anne Joseph in 1968, they moved to southeast D.C., four blocks behind the Library of Congress. At the time, the Capitol Hill area was becoming gentrified. Everyone in the neighborhood got to know each other generally well, yet there was a high crime rate. In fact, there was no house that had not been burglarized in the year and a half that the Josephs had lived there, including their own home. Fred and Anne Joseph were a part of the Jewish community in Washington D.C. Because there was no synagogue on Capitol Hill, they joined a synagogue in Maryland called Temple Sinai, where the couple married. American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) ; Anne Cohn ; Anne Joseph ; Capital Hill ; duPont Circle ; Gentrification ; Georgetown ; Jewish ; Jewish community ; Judaism ; Library of Congress ; Maryland ; Rabbis ; Rock Week Parkway ; Synagogues ; Temple Sinai ; Washington, D.C. Religion ; Washington (D.C.) ; Worship (Judaism) 38.96, -77.0629 17 The Temple Sinai, where Fred and Anne Joseph got married http://www.templesinaidc.org/ The Temple Sinai's website 4062 Civil rights counsel for the House Judiciary So, s--at some point something brought you back to Louisville. Fred Joseph explains that he had always wanted to return to Louisville, Kentucky, so in 1972 it came as no surprise when he and his wife, Anne Joseph moved back from Washington, D.C. While in D.C., Fred Joseph worked as a civil rights counsel for the House Judiciary. He was primarily involved with the enforcement of the Voting Rights Act because President Richard Nixon and John Mitchell were doing everything possible to not enforce the act. Nixon and Mitchell were doing so because Southern states were their primary voting base, but if they followed the Voting Rights Act their numbers in the polls could go down due to an increase in African American voters. Fred Joseph’s job required him to spend a lot of time in Mississippi, where he was not allowed to travel without FBI protection. Joseph shares a story of the antisemitism he experienced after being invited over to dinner at the Hinds County registrar’s house. Fred was very aware of the Jewish aspects of civil rights work in the OEO: Hy Buchbinder (eventually with American Jewish Committee) and Joseph (Joe) Rauh, chairman of the Leadership Council on Civil Rights. In the South, many people thought every Jew was a civil rights person and a communist. African Americans ; American Jewish Committee ; Arctic Circle ; Civil Rights ; Civil Rights Act of 1964 ; Coahoma County, Mississippi ; Columbia Law School ; FBI ; Havana, Cuba ; Hinds County, Mississippi ; House Judiciary ; Hy Bookbinder ; Jackson, Mississippi ; Jews ; John Mitchell ; Joseph Rauh ; Judaism ; Kosher ; Leadership Conference on Civil Rights ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO) ; Poverty ; President Nixon ; Sahara desert ; South ; Southern tradition ; Voting Rights Act ; Voting Rights Act of 1965 ; Washington ; Wife Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Civil rights ; Coahoma County (Miss.) ; Discrimination. ; Havana (Cuba) ; Hinds County (Miss.) ; Jackson (Miss.) ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Race relations ; Racism 32.2648, -90.3748 17 Hinds County (Miss.) https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&amp ; doc=100 A copy, history and summary of the Voting Rights act of 1965 4463 Integration of Jefferson County Public Schools Uh, back to Louisville, there were some, uh, people working on civil rights issues and open housing issues, uh, at that point, or was that more earlier than when you came back? When Fred Joseph returned home to live in Louisville, Kentucky in 1973, he was chairman of the Legal Aid Society, which was the principal counsel of the plaintiffs in the busing issue in Louisville. The ‘busing issue’ that Joseph referred to is the racial integration of Jefferson County Public Schools. Before the integration, the old city of Louisville school system consisted of city schools (Atherton, Shawnee, Male, Central and duPont Manual High School), and county schools such as Waggener, Seneca and Iroquois High Schools. The city school system went bankrupt, which caused the merger of the two Louisville school systems. With the school merger and the court-ordered desegregation of schools, students of different races were bused to schools across the city, racially integrating schools in a way that they had not been before. This caused controversy across Louisville. Fred Joseph notes that this caused much of the Louisville Jewish community to move from old Louisville to the suburbs. However, he states that the Jewish community was quite divided on the issue. Many Jewish families supported busing, but others opposed it and sent their kids to private schools in order to avoid it. Fred Joseph explains that he sent his daughters to private school until high school because the school they would have been sent to was one of the worst in the city, not because of racial fears. Adath Israel ; Anne Braden ; Atherton ; Board of education ; Brith Shalom ; Brownsville Road ; Bussing ; Central High School ; Chenoweth Lane ; Civil rights ; Downtown ; duPont Manual High School ; East End ; Iroquois High School ; Jefferson County Public Schools ; Jewish Community of Louisville ; Jews ; Judaism ; Keneseth Israel ; Klu Klux Klan ; Legal Aid Society ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Male ; Old Louisville ; Seneca High School ; Shawnee ; Waggener High School ; West End African Americans--Segregation ; Busing for school integration ; Civil rights ; Discrimination. ; Jefferson County (Ky.) ; Jefferson County Public Schools ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Race relations ; Racism ; School integration 38.222, -85.758 17 duPont Manual Magnet High School https://tcf.org/content/report/louisville-kentucky-reflection-school-integration/ A report on the integration of Jefferson County Public Schools 4745 Children, grandchildren and their Jewish involvement So, since you brought up your family--so you and Anne were married in Washington. Fred Joseph and his wife, Anne Joseph, had two daughters, Alix and Amy Joseph in 1974 and 1979, respectively. Alix Joseph has two sons and is currently a lawyer living in Denver, Colorado. Amy Joseph went to her father’s alma mater, Wesleyan University. She is currently working at the Bernheim Arboretum. There are also now two grandsons. Fred Joseph believes that his daughters became so involved in the Louisville Jewish community growing up because they saw how involved both of their parents were. Upon Fred and Anne's return to Louisville, they became very active in the Jewish community. Fred was the chairman of the Community Relations Committee for the Jewish Federation and his wife, Anne, was working with the National Council of Jewish Women and Park DuValle. Alix Joseph was involved with the Junior Counsel of Jewish Women and Amy was in the first class of Kesher Kentucky, a program for Jewish high school youth. Unlike their parents, both Alix and Amy Joseph had bat mitzvahs. Anne's family came to the U.S. in the 1920s, her grandmother came in 1939, and others were killed in the concentration camps in WWII. Her family had big Passover seders so Fred adopted that custom and came to enjoy the tradition, including his non-Jewish friends in their celebrations. He also stopped having a Christmas tree. Ali Center ; Alix Joseph ; Bar mitzvahs ; Bernheim Arboretum ; Christmas ; Community Relations Committee ; Community Relations Council ; Concentration camps ; D.B. Wylde ; Denver, Colorado ; Eastern European ; German ; Handmaker, Weber &amp ; amp Meyer ; Hannukah ; Holocaust ; Jewish community ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish Hospital ; Junior Council ; Kentucky Derby ; Kentucky Derby Museum ; Kesher Kentucky ; Legal Aid ; National Council of Jewish Women ; Park DuValle ; Passover ; Poland ; Rocky Mountain National Park ; Russia ; Seder ; Shelly Weber ; Stuart Handmaker ; United States of America ; Wesleyan University Denver (Colo.) ; Fasts and feasts--Judaism. ; Genealogy ; Holidays. ; Jewish children ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. 39.739, -104.99 17 Denver (Colo.) https://bernheim.org/ Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest's official website 5232 A controversial ACLU case / Dave Armstrong Um, digressing a little, um, when I came back to Louisville, uh, I was asked by the American Civil Liberties Union to litigate a case... When Fred Joseph moved back to Louisville, Kentucky from Washington D.C., he was asked by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) to litigate a case where a student at the University of Louisville had been arrested because he had a marijuana plant in his window. As part of the Jefferson County Police Department’s search, they seized fifteen psychology textbooks assigned for a psychology of drugs class and determined to burn the texts according to their interpretation of the controlled substances statute. Joseph disagreed with the interpretation, so he took the case to Dave Armstrong, who at the time was running against the then-County Commonwealth Attorney, for advice. Regarding the case, Armstrong stated, “books means books and records. It doesn’t mean textbooks. We are not Nazi Germany.” This experience was the foundation of Fred Joseph’s close friendship with Dave Armstrong. Joseph managed several of Armstrong’s campaigns and the two families would spend holidays, such as Passover and Christmas, together. During Dave Armstrong’s career, he was the Commonwealth Attorney, the Kentucky Attorney General, the county judge, the mayor of Louisville, and then finally the commissioner of the Public Service Commission. Fred Joseph adds that Armstrong was very active in Jewish events ; he went to the Soviet Union on behalf of immigration of Soviet Jews. American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) ; Christmas ; Commonwealth Attorney ; Dave Armstrong ; Ed Schroering ; Jefferson County Police Department ; Kentucky ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Nazi Germany ; Nazis ; Public Service Commission ; Seder ; Soviet Jews ; Soviet Union ; University of Louisville ; Washington, D.C. Civil rights ; Jefferson County (Ky.) ; Lawyers--Kentucky--Louisville ; Louisville (Ky.) ; University of Louisville ; Washington (D.C.) 59.8827, 30.269 17 Former Soviet Union https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/107859376/ An article by the Courier Journal about Dave Armstron running for Commonwealth Attorney 5392 Professional career Uh, I don't want to skip over your adult professional career here. When Fred Joseph originally began his law practice, he focused on commercial real estate matters. He represented developers doing planning, zoning and contract work. After doing that for about 20 years, he started representing lenders, instead of developers. In the last part of his practice, starting in 1997, he concentrated primarily on public projects with a focus on affordable housing. This stage of Fred Joseph’s law practice is one that he is especially passionate about. He describes transitioning to this stage as “coming back to his roots.” Public projects that he worked on include the Hope VI project such as Park DuValle, Sheppard Square, Russell, and Fourth Street Live. These projects entailed addressing zoning, mixed use, affordability, and people's concerns in new ways. This combines architectural design, social good, law, and meeting people, which is exciting to Fred Joseph. Affordable housing ; Architecture ; Careers ; Community Relations Board ; Fourth Street Live ; Georgia ; Hope VI Project ; HUD ; Jewish community ; Kentucky ; Liberty Green ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Mississippi ; Park DuValle ; Public housing ; Public projects ; Residential ; Russell ; Sheppard Square ; UPS ; Urban ; Zoning Housing ; Lawyers--Kentucky--Louisville ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.252, -85.7569 17 Fourth Street Live 5749 Archiving the Louisville Jewish Community And, uh, you've also been involved with studying and recording the history of Louisville's Jewish community. Fred Joseph is involved with studying and recording the history of Louisville’s Jewish community and the archival project by the Jewish Community in Louisville (JCL). The Jewish community has had a great impact on Louisville from many perspectives, such as medical, professional and business. Joseph chaired the Kentucky Oral History Commission for several years and was on the executive committee of the Kentucky Historical Society. He's working on a family history that's already 900 pages. He is excited about this project because it might cause people to think about how things were a product of their time and how they related to other parts of the community. Fred Joseph was also involved in bringing the Anne Frank Exhibit to the Louisville Free Public Library. He would often go down to the library to sit and watch people wandering through the exhibit. Many of the visitors to the exhibit were not highly educated and had no idea who Anne Frank was, or what the Holocaust was about, but they were clearly moved by the exhibit. This experience inspired Fred Joseph to use the Jewish Community archival project as a way to make the Louisville community aware of the impact that the Jewish community has had in Louisville. The archives can be the basis of programming that impacts community relations. This could involve new volunteers in the way the Heritage Weekends years ago involved Jewish volunteers on the Belvedere. American Jewish Archives ; Anne Frank ; Belvedere ; Cincinnati, Ohio ; Holocaust ; Jewish ; Jews ; Judaism ; Kentucky Historical Society ; Kentucky Oral History Commission ; Louisville Board of Education ; Louisville Free Public Library ; Louisville Jewish Community ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Rabbi Waller ; the Filson Society ; the Jewish Federation of Louisville Archival materials. ; Archives. ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Genealogy ; Jewish archives ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.2449, -85.7578 17 The Louisville Free Public Library, where the Anne Frank Exhibit took place http://www.lfpl.org/annefrank/ The Anne Frank Exhibit by the Louisville Free Public Library 6191 Why Jewish history in Kentucky is important and significant And what stories would you like to see told, once there's the archives and, and, uh, there's a possibility of doing exhibits or educational programs or outreach? In this section, Fred Joseph discusses several stories of Jews who had a large impact on Kentucky as a way of showing why Jewish history in Kentucky is important, significant, and should be archived. The Crusade for Children was started by Rabbi Herbert Waller, Monsignor Horrigan, and Duke McCall. Rabbi Waller was extremely influential in beginning the Crusade for Children, was president of the board of education and has a public school named after him. Joseph also explains that major stores in the business history of the community have been Jewish stores. In addition, Jewish Hospital was a premier heart transplant center for years. For a long time, Jews in Louisville could not be serviced by any other hospitals in the area because of their religion. Finally, Joseph discusses Louis Brandeis, the first Jew to have a seat on the U.S. Supreme Court was a Louisvillian. In addition, Louis Brandeis’ cousin, Lewis Dembitz, wrote the first major treatise on Kentucky law. Ben Snider ; Bensinger’s ; Crusade for Children ; Duke McCall ; Education ; Jewish ; Jewish Hospital ; Jewish stores ; Jews ; Kaufman-Straus ; Lewis Dembitz ; Louis Brandeis ; Louisville, Kentucky ; Monsignor Horrigan ; Rabbi Waller Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Discrimination. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish families. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Judaism. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.249, -85.751 17 Jewish Hospital http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/dembitz-lewis-naphtali A biography of Lewis Dembitz from the Jewish Virtual Library interview Fred Joseph discusses in great detail his family history and genealogy. He talks about their immigration to America from various places in Germany. He describes their history once they arrived in America, including their many accomplishments, specifically in the field of architecture. He discusses his childhood growing up in a Baptist community in Louisville, Kentucky. He talks about his family's Jewish traditions, his parents' involvement in the Jewish community, and his experiences with anti-Semitism. He discusses his inspiration for his work in the field of civil rights, which led to his work with Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) and other forms of activism. He discusses his education at Wesleyan University and University of Michigan Law School before his career with the Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO) and as civil rights counsel for the House Judiciary. He discusses the integration of Jefferson County public schools and litigating a case for the ACLU in Louisville. ELY: I&#039 ; m Carol Ely. I&#039 ; m here with Fred Joseph, for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, sponsored by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. It&#039 ; s February 3rd, 2017, and thank you for agreeing to do this interview, Fred. JOSEPH: This is exciting. I&#039 ; m very pleased to do it. ELY: Great. And, uh, we talked about there&#039 ; ll be kind of a mix of personal questions about your family, and some questions about your work and your work in the community, so we may move back and forth a little bit, and, uh, we&#039 ; ll just see how it unfolds. So I&#039 ; ll start out with a, a question, which for you is really a big and important one, which is, when did members of your family first come to America and what brought them here? JOSEPH: interestingly, on both my mother&#039 ; s and father&#039 ; s side, they came in the late 1850s, uh, and I&#039 ; ve researched dramatically what caused them to come and I don&#039 ; t know. Um, I assume that--in all cases, they came from Germany, with one exception ; one came from, uh, Denmark, uh, but, um, uh, I don&#039 ; t know why they--why they came. They came in, uh, interestingly, they came to this area. On my father&#039 ; s side, they came to Shelbyville, Kentucky in 1858. And on my mother&#039 ; s side, they came to Cincinnati, uh, and moved to New Albany, and then moved back to Cincinnati, and then moved to Arkansas, uh, and, uh, all of that happened, uh, in the late 1850s. ELY: Do you know anything about what part of Germany they may have come from? JOSEPH: Uh, the--on my father&#039 ; s said, they call came from Württemberg near st--near Stuttgart. Uh, and on my mother&#039 ; s side, uh, they came from near Hanover. Um, but there was a part of the family, uh, that had come from Denmark. My great, great, great-grandmother on my mother&#039 ; s side was the daughter of a Polish rabbi who moved to Copenhagen, and, uh, then she met my great, great-granddad in Germany and came to the United States. ELY: So do you know anything about the political and religious beliefs they had in Europe? Were they part of the movement of liberals from Germany during the 1840s and 50s? JOSEPH: On my grand-- on my father&#039 ; s side, they were very much a part of that liberal moment. In fact, I have a copy of a confirmation certificate, uh, from 1851, uh, I believe it is. It&#039 ; s late-1840s, early-1850s, of my great, great--of my great-granddad in Germany. Um, uh, on my mother&#039 ; s side, I assume since he was an orthodox rabbi, he was not. The most interesting story on a religious basis though, is that, um, my great, great-grandmother on mother&#039 ; s side had two brothers, uh, in Denmark, uh, that became disaffected with the Jewish religion and founded the Baptist Church in Germany. ELY: Hm. JOSEPH: And are sufficiently well known as major factors in the Baptist religion that, uh, a reference to them is made on the church windows at Highland Baptist Church at Grinstead Drive in, in, in Louisville. ELY: Oh. JOSEPH: And they, uh, have, uh, are major players in the world Baptist religion. Uh, of course the family sat shiva, uh, at the time that they became involved, but it is an interesting story that, uh, relates to, uh, the relig--the religious feelings of the family at that time. UNKNOWN: I&#039 ; m gonna stop. ELY: Had you ever been asked to speak at the church about your family&#039 ; s connection? Are they aware of it? JOSEPH: Uh, they were very much aware of it. In fact, uh, he wrote a, a hymnal in German that contains some Baptist, uh, hymns that are used worldwide, uh, and they&#039 ; ve used that, uh, uh, Bible as a study--something to base their study on on several occasions. And I&#039 ; ve spoken with the minister there, who&#039 ; s very interested about it, yes. ELY: That&#039 ; s interesting. I didn&#039 ; t know about this. So there are Jewish roots to the Baptist movement in Germany? JOSEPH: They were the--very important in the early--in the early German Baptist movement, yes. ELY: So when your family arrived in America, you talked about some of the places that they lived. What kind of professions were they following? What, what kind of work? JOSEPH: Okay. Um, my--I&#039 ; ll start with Mother&#039 ; s family. Mother&#039 ; s family moved uh, uh, from Cincinnati to--they were--my great, great-grandfather was a friend of Isaac Mayer Wise. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: In Cincinnati. Um, and they moved to, uh, New Albany, where he had an auction house, um, that is now a French restaurant, uh, and, uh, several other related businesses, and then came, um, went back to Cincinnati, uh, for reasons that I never understood, uh, but then moved to Augusta County, uh, Arkansas, where he was the sheriff, uh, and then became, uh, the, uh, superintendent of instruction, and moved to Little Rock after that. Oh, and published a newspaper in August County, then moved to Little Rock where he studied law and became a lawyer, and was asked by the governor to be on the first board of trustees of the University of Arkansas, and he was the chairman of the site selection committee that selected Fayetteville as the, um, uh, site of the University of Arkansas, uh, and was then elected to the Arkansas legislature. The first Jew elected to the Arkansas legislature. Uh, and one of the things he was very involved in was, uh, passage of a bill which allowed--and this is a quote--Jewish preachers, uh, to perform wedding ceremonies because previously rabbis had not been a recognized religion, uh, which, uh, allowed their, their ceremonies to be recognized by the state. Uh, so, uh, that was--he was only there for, for one term, and then his son was a lawyer, um, the two of them were partners with, uh, the governor&#039 ; s brother. So they--there was a lot of involvement in state political things, uh, and interestingly, my great-grandfather who was, uh, actually born in New Albany and then moved to Georgia, was the Arkansas representative to the founding of the American Bar Association, and was, uh, the Arkansas representative in the founding of the American Jewish Committee. The Kentucky representative of the group was Isaac Bernheim, uh, and I have copies of minutes where the two of them sat on committees together. ELY: So they were very well accepted in the highest branches of government. Do you know if there was any pushback because they were Jews, or was it really a very smooth transition? This is kind of a southern story in a way. JOSEPH: It&#039 ; s a very southern story, uh, and interestingly, uh, the spouse of--I&#039 ; ve dealt with one part of the family. ELY: Okay. JOSEPH: Another part of the Arkansas family, uh--that was the Cohn branch, which was my mother&#039 ; s--on Mother&#039 ; s side, and her matriarchal background--it was her patriarchal background. On the matriarchal side, the family was also very involved. Uh, her grandfather was, on the other side, was an early, um, very well received merchant, member of the city council, uh, um, members of the bank board, did a variety of things in Little Rock. And the family, which is the Ottenheimer family, uh, was a very important part of the Little Rock community. In fact, at this point, if you walk out of the Clinton Library in Little Rock and go along the river, you&#039 ; re on a, um, Belvedere, that&#039 ; s named after the Ottenheimer family. ELY: Oh. JOSEPH: So, uh, and they were very important in early library and educational programs in Little Rock. ELY: So at some point the story circles back to Kentucky? You have some Kentucky, uh, ancestors you know about from the same time period, right? JOSEPH: Well, they were--no. They stayed in Arkansas. ELY: Okay. JOSEPH: They stayed in Arkansas. ELY: And that&#039 ; s your mother&#039 ; s background? JOSEPH: Mother--and Mother-- ELY: All right. JOSEPH: Mother was born in Little Rock and ended up in Miami, and my mother met my father in Miami. So, she came back here, but the family basically continued to be, uh, southern. Uh, there was a good part of the family in Little Rock and also in Dallas. So her family was all southern. In fact, it&#039 ; s interesting, when you think of Southern Jews, you think of Driving Miss Daisy. And the mother of the author of Driving--the parents of the author of Driving Miss Daisy lived next door to my grand--my grandparents--a generation--great-grandparents. So, it, it was very much the, uh, Driving Miss Daisy kind of, uh, early German-Jewish immigration. ELY: So, then it&#039 ; s your, um, father&#039 ; s family that&#039 ; s in Kentucky-- JOSEPH: Yes. ELY: --and Indiana, or just Kentucky? JOSEPH: Just Kentucky. ELY: Okay. JOSEPH: My, uh, father&#039 ; s family came to Kentucky in the late 1850s, and again, for reasons I can&#039 ; t trace, um, on, on his mother&#039 ; s side--so, still my father&#039 ; s side, but on his--they moved to Shelbyville, outside of Shelbyville, where my great, great-granddad, uh, was a farmer, and, uh, had a substantial farm ; about 400 acres. Uh, as best I can tell, uh, they grew hemp. Interestingly, they lived on Hemp Ridge Road. Uh, and-- ELY: Hemp was huge in Kentucky. People forget that. It was huge. JOSEPH: It was a huge thing, uh, and he had four sons--I&#039 ; m sorry ; I&#039 ; m missing a generation. One of his two sons, uh, stayed in Shelbyville, was the captain of the Shelby militia during the Civil War, and a very highly regarded, um, soldier. His, uh, um, group was known as the Mt. Eaton Sharpshooters, and there are books written about the fact that they were one of the most highly, uh, skilled group of marksmen in the, uh, Kentucky Militia. He then, in 1866, opened a men&#039 ; s clothing store in Shelbyville, uh, and, uh--which was in the family until eighteen--I&#039 ; m sorry ; until 1948. He had four sons who were very prominent in Shelbyville ; one was mayor of Shelbyville, uh--my great-granddad was a member of the city council in Shelbyville, uh, but his sons were very prominent ; one was the mayor, one was the head of the fair board, uh, another was the fire chief. So they were very prominent, uh, in Shelbyville, uh, which at that time had a substantial Jewish community, actually. ELY: Synagogue? A temple or a synagogue then? JOSEPH: No. ELY: No? JOSEPH: Uh, uh, they, for the most part, were members of Adath Israel here. Um, it turns out that Rabbi Rowe, uh, was very involved with the family. His predecessor at Adath Israel was Rabbi Enlow, uh, and if you read history of Shelby County families, Rabbi Enlow played a very important part of those. There&#039 ; s a lady from Lexington who is now ninety-six and whose name I can&#039 ; t remember, just published a book. She grew up in Shelbyville and an awful lot of her book relates to--and then lived in Lexington--relates to, uh, uh, Rabbi Enlow and Rabbi Rowe. So--but they basically came in and at that time, the railroad track that is now--it runs out Frankfort Avenue, it was the interurban that went between Louisville and Shelbyville, and you could get from Louisville to Shelbyville faster than on the interurban than you can now driving Sixty-Four, because my father used to go out on the interurban to the farm in Shelbyville, um, and commute back and forth. My-- ELY: And Adath Israel was downtown then, so the interurban train went right through downtown. JOSEPH: Right. Right. Um, and, so my father went to Manual and he could go over to the railroad station, go out and end up in the center of Shelbyville in no time at all. And, um, my great-granddad, Captain Abe that we&#039 ; ve been talking about, uh, la-- in later part of his life, around 1910, moved to Sixth Street in Louisville and commuted to Shelbyville every day. He was near central--lived near Central Park, but he moved to Louisville so that my grandmother was in school in Louisville. Um, which leaves--then I go back to my patriarchal part of my father&#039 ; s family, and they moved to Louisville in, around 1860 also, from Germany, and I have virtually no record of--I&#039 ; ve been able to find not any information on why they&#039 ; re here, uh, uh, where they came from in Germany. Clear they were German. I have looked at the census records. They were all cattle traders, they all lived within a block of the stockyards, and, uh, um, the family was very involved in stock trading, which was the normal, uh, Jewish--a very normal Jewish occupation in Germany. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Um, but, I, I don&#039 ; t know why they came and I don&#039 ; t know how they ended up here. ELY: And were they also part of the Adath Israel community? JOSEPH: Yes. ELY: Okay. And, uh, you have some very distinguished architects in your family. How--start that story. Where does that begin? JOSEPH: All right. My, uh, grandfather, uh, was, uh, went to Manual High School and apprenticed himself to McDonald &amp ; Dodd, which was a very prominent architectural firm at that time. Uh, and, uh, his brother--and learned architecture through apprenticeship. His brother--younger brother, uh, became an engineer, got a degree from the University of Michigan, and in 1908--during the time they were at McDonald &amp ; Dodd did some really nice buildings. One of the buildings that he was most proud of was the old Presbyterian Seminary now, on Jefferson Community College on Broadway. Um, in 1908 they started their own firm, not--my father--my grandfather and his brother, which was the original Joseph &amp ; Joseph, and they became involved in a number of major projects and had a specialty in distillery design, and designed most all of Brown-Forman, did National Distillers, uh, Seagram, um, Stitzel-Weller. Worked on a lot of distillery projects, as well as some, some substantial, uh, Jewish buildings ; they did the new Jewish hospital, Jewish community center, uh, Kneseth, uh, a number of buildings in Louisville. Uh, in early 1930s, my father and his first cousin, the son of other architects, graduated from Manual together, went to the University of Pennsylvania together, uh, in architecture, and when they graduated, came back to Louisville. So, it was Joseph &amp ; Joseph &amp ; Joseph &amp ; Joseph, um, which was quite a-- ELY: Easy to remember. JOSEPH: Easy to remember, um, but--and was fine, except there was no work because it was the middle of the Depression and Louisville did not have enough, um, building to support the four of them. So, my, um, grandfather&#039 ; s brother and his son moved to Los Angeles and formed Joseph &amp ; Joseph in Los Angeles, and that, that left Joseph &amp ; Joseph in Louisville, which was my grandfather and my father. And, uh, so that firm is continued today through, uh, the Motor family, which was very close to my dad and kept the name, doing some--continuing to do some wonderful building. ELY: So the firm still exists but it&#039 ; s Los Angeles based now? JOSEPH: No, no. The firm-- ELY: No? JOSEPH: --Joseph &amp ; Joseph is here, but there are no-- ELY: That&#039 ; s what I thought. JOSEPH: --there are no Josephs involved with it, but, uh, um, they&#039 ; ve kept the name and, and, kept the, the history. ELY: So what buildings around town are still standing that you know that they designed? JOSEPH: Well we have them--the, uh-- ELY: Some of the distilleries. JOSEPH: Well, we, we talked about the distillery, I talked about the Jefferson Community College. ELY: Right. JOSEPH: The United Way building-- ELY: Great building. JOSEPH: --on Broadway is theirs. Uh, uh, I mentioned various Jewish buildings, uh, the Lions Club Eye Bank is part of Jewish Hospital, uh, was my dad&#039 ; s. Um, uh, the--there are major buildings around the state. Um, for example, when my dad came back in the 1930s, there was almost no work here, so he spent three years in Morehead, Kentucky, uh, and he was the principle architect for Morehead State University, uh, and actually, uh, worked in conjunction with Olmsted--Frederick Law Olmsted firm in New York that designed Central Park and designed all the parks here, and when you look at the historical markings of, uh, at, at Morehead, it&#039 ; s a combination of Joseph &amp ; Joseph and Olmsted, which is, puts it in pretty interesting company. ELY: Very elite company. JOSEPH: Um, they-- ELY: They designed some movie theaters, too, I think for the Sweito chain? JOSEPH: The Rialto--thank you. ELY: Right. JOSEPH: He did, uh, the Rialto, the Majestic, I&#039 ; m not sure about the Mary Anderson, but they, they did a number of, um, uh, uh, uh, buildings in New Albany. They did the old Atherton Hospital, which is now, uh, something middle school. They did Hazelwood Elementary, uh, um, they did, uh, Eddyville State Prison, uh, which is an interesting departure from their normal work, and, uh, a number of theaters. I think the Rialto was the--was my granddad&#039 ; s favorite. ELY: Any of the buildings on Fourth Street now? They may have been used for different purposes, but-- JOSEPH: I&#039 ; m sorry, I didn&#039 ; t-- ELY: They may--some of the buildings may be used for different purposes now, but-- JOSEPH: Oh, all the buildings are for different purposes. Yeah. ELY: --right. JOSEPH: Um, and--yes. ELY: Well, they clearly got a lot of important commissions. Do you think that they&#039 ; re being Jewish, uh, was a factor at all? They did a lot of work for the Jewish community, obviously, but any, um, anti-Semitism? I have to keep asking this question about anti-Semitism. Often the answer is, no, not at all, but I&#039 ; m just throwing it out there. JOSEPH: I didn&#039 ; t get any feel that there was. Now, it was interesting because Joseph &amp ; Joseph did all, all the Jewish work, Nolan &amp ; Nolan did all the Catholic work, um. There was some religious recognition to be sure, um, but I, I--that was not something that I--that I had heard. ELY: Okay. Seems probably more of an advantage to them to be connected with the Jewish community because there was so much building going on, uh, for, uh, not just the organized community, but for entrepreneurs like the Sweitos with the movie theaters. So it was a good connection. JOSEPH: Well, and, and, now that you mention that, they did the Bensinger Building on Main Street, for the old furniture store, and the Sweitos. And, and there were--there was Louisville--there was the standard country club, and--so they did have the contacts, and clearly--but one of their principle contracts was, in later years, was Jewish Hospital, which he did a lot of work for. ELY: Um-hm. And this is a tricky question. I&#039 ; m not sure I could answer it. Was there anything, since they were artists in a sense, was there anything that you could say was Jewish aesthetically or philosophically in their work? Do you think that they were influenced perhaps by their European roots or by--have you ever thought about it? JOSEPH: I have. Uh, actually, uh, and I don&#039 ; t think there was anything Jewish in it. Interestingly, if you look at--my grandfather was a Shriner for eighty years, and if you notice, any, any influence, it&#039 ; s a, uh, sort of a, um--searching for a word--uh, Middle Eastern-- ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: --but not necessarily Jewish influence that, that, that has some antecedents in, in, in, uh, the Shriner tradition. I, uh, and, it&#039 ; s covered--if you were to take off the façade of the, uh, United Way building on Broadway, you&#039 ; d see a good deal of that, uh, but there are other places that that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s true of. Um, but I don&#039 ; t know anything, uh, I remember when Dad was designing the temple and when he was designing Kneseth, Kneseth, there was a lot of research done, but the major--but I don&#039 ; t think there was anything other than the influence of the, of the, um, specific congregations that had specific, um, interests and things that they wanted to reflect in those designs that they had brought because of their, uh, Jewish religion. ELY: There was a, sort of a fad for Moorish architecture that you see in the synagogues and in the theaters, too, and then there&#039 ; s the classicism people went to when they wanted to hark back to Greece, and, and early American, and then modernism. Your dad designed the current Kneseth Israel on Taylorsville, or the earlier building? JOSEPH: On, on Taylorsville Road, yeah. ELY: Okay, which tries to be very modern in its appearance, so, there&#039 ; s fads in architecture, too. I just wondered if you saw any kind of a through line in their work. JOSEPH: I don&#039 ; t. ELY: Okay. Just interesting little diversion here. Um, okay. So, let&#039 ; s switch back to the personal now for a minute, and, uh, tell me your parent&#039 ; s names and when and where they were born, just. JOSEPH: Okay. My father was Alfred S. Joseph, Jr., I&#039 ; m Alfred S. Joseph, III. Um, obviously a strange relationship to Jewish tradition, but I am the third, which reflects the reform tradition. My father was born in Louisville, uh, I&#039 ; m not gonna get a year right, but I in I think 1912, um, and I was born here in 1943. Mother was born in Little Rock, as we&#039 ; ve discussed. ELY: And her name? JOSEPH: Her name was Dorothy Cone, originally C-o-h-n, and changed in nineteen--the middle of 1930 to C-o-n-e, because there was clearly some anti-Semitic effect on my grandparents that they thought the change in name might, might mitigate. ELY: Hm. Do you know what the name Joseph was originally? JOSEPH: No. ELY: I&#039 ; m assuming it wasn&#039 ; t Joseph in Germany. JOSEPH: It, it--I, I--a very frustrating part of my historical research that I can&#039 ; t, uh, I just am completely blocked from the Joseph side. ELY: So, you were born in Louisville in 1943? JOSEPH: I was born in Louisville at Baptist Hospital, uh, which was, uh, another Joseph &amp ; Joseph building, actually-- ELY: (laughs) JOSEPH: --over off of Broadway. Um, and, and that building has now run full cycle. They&#039 ; re trying to re, recycle it again. Um, but, yes, I was born in Louisville. ELY: And, do you have brothers and sisters? JOSEPH: I have a sister who now lives in Atlanta. She&#039 ; s three years younger than I am. ELY: And, uh, what neighborhood did you live in when you were growing up? JOSEPH: Well, that&#039 ; s an interesting question. I grew up, uh, block and a half from the Baptist seminary on Lexington Road, uh, and, uh, any--of all the things that I think have affected my life, that neighborhood, uh, was probably the most important because I went to Clark School then to Barret Junior High School before going to Atherton, uh, and with one exception, I had never been in a class with anyone in public schools that was Jewish until I got to high school. Uh, and the Baptist seminary was a critical part of my growing up because so many of my friends were affiliated--families affiliated with the seminary. So it affected, uh, how, I, I looked at things in a way that would not have been the case had I grown up in the Highlands where--which was, uh, where most Jewish families lived at the time. ELY: Did you find yourself in religious debates with your friends, or? JOSEPH: Well, sure. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Um, and I was always the one, it, it--there were major differences, uh, for example, um, at Barret Junior High there were never any sock-hops like at Highland, where there were always sock-hops. And to this day, I&#039 ; ll say, &quot ; I never learned to dance because I grew up Baptist.&quot ; Uh, uh, and, um, whenever there was a holiday, I would be asked to come to the front of the class and say, we have someone Jewish in the class explain this. But there was also a heavy dose of Christmas music and very religious music that I&#039 ; m sure was not, uh, part of the Highland experience. ELY: Did, did you ever object to that in any way, or did you just go along? JOSEPH: Uh, I, I, I--object is perhaps too strong a word. I&#039 ; ve certainly felt it and I--my parents talked with the teachers a little bit about it. I never felt that it was, um, pushed--I never felt pushed by it. Uh, I had an identity that recognized it, um, uh, and the Baptist seminary at that time was a much more open place than it is today. Um, most people don&#039 ; t recognize, for example, that Rabbi Waller got his doctorate in divinity at the Baptist seminary. ELY: I did not know that. JOSEPH: Uh, and interestingly, one of his classmates, who is Monsignor Horrigan, who was the first president of Bellermine. Uh, uh, and so that you had a very prominent Catholic and a very prominent Jew getting, uh, doctorates of divinity at a Baptist seminary. And, it--the--one of my closest friends, who continues to be a close friend to the day, uh, was the son of the president of the Baptist seminary, and I spent probably as many hours at the--at that home as I did at mine, and had the opportunity at one point to meet Billy Graham. I mean, it was--it was a whole different world for me, but I never, uh, from that group, never felt, um, that I was--that they were trying to convert me or pressure me. Um, it was a, a, a pretty, um, open experience. Now, that changed when I went to high school, because at Atherton at that time there were, uh, social clubs, um, that, um, were a very important part of the social youth, and at the center there were BBYO clubs, and other clubs that were important, and all of my friends, my closest friends, were non-Jewish, and I was told, absolutely, that there was no way that I was gonna be in one of their social clubs. Um, and, um, so that drew me to the center, and I was a member of Pi Tau Pi at the center, um, not necessarily because those were my closest friends, but because, if I wanted to be in the social activity, um, it wasn&#039 ; t going to be with the people that I&#039 ; d grown up with. ELY: Hmm. I&#039 ; ve heard a lot about the social clubs at the center, and the important role it played in people&#039 ; s lives, but I didn&#039 ; t realize that it was because there were high school clubs that were restricted also in town. JOSEPH: Well the other clubs were very restricted, to be sure. ELY: So-- JOSEPH: Um, now, the, the, the experience at the center was a remarkable experience for me because these were people that I had been to Sunday school with but had not known well, uh, and, uh, it was a--I very much enjoyed that, but it was not because--it was not my first choice ; my first choice was to stay with my friends. ELY: Were your friends embarrassed at all about that, or was it just an accepted thing? JOSEPH: It was an accepted thing. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: And, and there were, uh, I mean, there were worse things that happened. I mean, I remember as a kid, one of my friends took me to the Louisville Country Club and we were swimming, uh, and, uh, the lifeguard blew the whistle ; everybody out, there&#039 ; s a Jew in the pool. Uh, and the family was asked not to bring that person back if they wanted to continue to be a member of the, uh, of the Louisville Country Club. Um, so it isn&#039 ; t as if I haven&#039 ; t experienced something much more dramatic than that, but, um, the, uh, the social clubs in high school were pretty--were pretty clear that it was Jewish and non-Jewish. ELY: Going back to the pool for a minute, I mean, I could say, &quot ; How did that make you feel?&quot ; and the answer is probably terrible, but did--did you talk to your parents about it? JOSEPH: Oh sure. ELY: Did you talk to your friend? Your friend&#039 ; s parents? What did people say? JOSEPH: Yeah, and they were- they were--they withdrew from the, from the, from the, from the club, actually, as a result of that. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: But it--but you--but one was very clear at that time that Jews were not accepted at several of the country clubs, uh, and some of the social clubs, uh, downtown, uh, and that continued certainly--I don&#039 ; t know that it&#039 ; s ended in every place, but it--but it was certainly a prominent thing. I joined--when I came back to Louisville in 1972 from Washington, uh, I was told by several major law firms that they didn&#039 ; t interview Jews. Uh, so that&#039 ; s as late as &#039 ; 72. Now, those--those firms have now changed, but, but that was clear, and when I, uh, was a member of a firm that was very active with the Pendennis Club, um, uh, they asked if I would like to become a member because they were trying to transition from a very restrictive situation to something that was less so, and I--that&#039 ; s certainly not something I had an interest in, although it was interesting to have the discussion. Um, but that kind of thing, uh--and the other situation that&#039 ; s so interesting, uh, I currently live in Indian Hills, which when I was growing up, uh, was very restricted, and, uh, effectively red-lined against blacks and Jews. Uh, and many of the deeds in Indian Hills, uh, had anti-Israelite and anti-black language in the--in the deeds, and certainly the, uh, realtors were not interested in selling homes to Jews over there. ELY: I heard a story once from John Yarmuth that when he moved to Glenview, his family moved, they were shunned by all the neighbors until the Binghams came over and shook their hands, and then suddenly they were okay. So, there&#039 ; s-- JOSEPH: I&#039 ; m sure that that&#039 ; s--yeah. ELY: --yeah, a period of transition there where the social norms were maybe starting to break down, but not quite--not quite yet. Well, circling back a little bit, in--growing up in your family, what kind of, um, uh, Jewish education did you have? What kind of Judaism did your parents practice? What, what was your relationship to that? JOSEPH: Uh, very, very, very, very reform. Um, we went to synagogue on the high holy days. Um, we probably went on Passover, uh, we had a Christmas tree at home, um, and, um, I went to Sunday school, reluctantly, uh, and with, uh, a good deal of pressure. But it was not a, uh, it was a not a day-to-day practicing of religion in the household. ELY: So it was a social identification in a way? You identified with the Adath Israel community? JOSEPH: Very strongly--very strongly iden--very strongly social identification. Mother and Dad were very close, were good friends with Rabbi and Mrs. Waller. Um, I remember vividly the fiftieth anniversary of my grandparents, uh, where we had, uh, only family there, but also, uh, Rabbi and Mrs. Waller and Rabbi and Mrs. Rowe, because I think they were all good friends. So, it was, it was a strong identification, but not a lot of, uh, of, of religious practice. ELY: Um-hm. And your education was through Sunday school, mainly? JOSEPH: To the extent there was education, as I said. ELY: Okay. (laughs) JOSEPH: I was--interestingly, I was not bar mitzvahed and I, and, until I had gone to college and came back to Louisville after having lived in Washington. I had never been to a bar mitzvah. ELY: Hmm. JOSEPH: So, that, that none of the, my friends who had bar mitzvahs here, none of, that was just not something that was part of the group with whom I ran. ELY: Did you, I think, did you go to a Jewish camp, or do other youth activities when you were young? Jewish youth activities? JOSEPH: Uh, I went to a camp in Wisconsin that was primarily Jewish, although there were no Jewish activities. I, I was with a group of, of five folks, uh, or six folks, who all were Jewish, and we stayed, uh, uh, we went through a number of years of camp together, um, but none of us, um, were actively involved in, in real religious activities. Interestingly, uh, the camp has, uh, uh, had a number of folks who came from the camp into very prominent Jewish activities ; the dean of Hebrew Union College now was at camp with me. Um, yeah. He was not--he&#039 ; s younger, but there were, and there were several rabbis that came out of camp. It was not a NFTY camp or an OFTY camp or any of those things, but it was primarily Jewish. ELY: And, uh, when you were growing up, did your, was your father involved in the Jewish community? Um, the organized Jewish community, with any groups or? JOSEPH: My father was not a participant. Uh, Mother was. Um, Mother was very active, uh, in the Council of Jewish Women. Am I throwing you off your list? ELY: I finished the first page. We&#039 ; re moving on. JOSEPH: Mother was very active in, um, National Council of Jewish Women. She, during the war she had gotten interested in mental illness, had done some work with returning veterans, uh, and got very interested in, uh, mental illness, and was one of the founders of Bridgehaven, which is, uh, a halfway house in Louisville, was the second president of Bridgehaven. Uh, she then became--then got interested in, uh, working, uh, with the state mental health program through National Council of Jewish Women, uh, and became the, uh, director of forensic psychiatry at Central State Hospital, uh, and special assistant to the commissioner of mental health, which was pretty remarkable because Mother never went to college. Uh, and, uh, received several national awards for her involvement in mental health. But all of it started with, uh, National Council of Jewish Women, uh, which she had gotten involved with through some, uh, influence of my grandmother, uh, who had been president of National Council of Jewish Women in 1920, and had used it as a vehicle in several educational programs, went beyond the Jewish community, and my grandmother had been very active also. ELY: What was your grandmother&#039 ; s name? JOSEPH: She was Helen Joseph. She was Helen Rothschild Joseph. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: She was part of the family that came from Shelbyville to Louisville. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Um, and, uh, so Mother had become very close friends with Fanny Rose Rosenbaum, uh, and with Betty Jane Fleischaker, and there was a whole group of women at that time who were, uh, certainly, um, in front of their time and doing really important, interesting things in the community. So, uh, I, my involvement in the community comes from Mother actually, rather than from Dad. Dad was very involved with work, but had, uh, no particular community involvement. ELY: Was there anybody else as you were growing up that was, uh, an influence on your life later? JOSEPH: Interestingly, um, there was, there was some, there was, in the ways of southern families and--it was a black lady that worked for my grandparents when I was growing up, and later worked for us, and, uh, she was a, the granddaughter of a slave, and her two grandkids I later got to know ; one was a CPA and one was a PhD teacher. And she started, she did everything in the family ; she helped my grandparents, she helped my parents, uh, subsequently she worked with, for Anne and me in, in raising our kids, and it was my--it was the experience with her that really, I think, created some interest in civil rights, in that she was, uh, clearly not formally educated, but clearly extraordinarily bright, determined that she was gonna change her family, which she did, determined that she was gonna, um, stand up for what she believed in, and determined that nobody was gonna speak down to her or give her sass. And, I can&#039 ; t help but think that starting with someone like that at an early age gave me a different perspective on, uh, um, civil rights, than had I not had that experience or had, um, had parents who were, uh, less, uh, tolerant or less concerned about civil rights than mine. My, my, my father had, um, at any early stage--and I don&#039 ; t remember all the details, but I remember he hired a black architect years and years before that would have happened, and a number of his, his clients just beat up on him. It was something that was discussed at home and it was a trauma for him, uh, and he was not somebody that was gonna go out and lead a civil rights, um, march, or do anything like that, but he needed an architect, somebody applied, the person was good, he hired him and sort of, that was the way it was. And reaction was something that was a, that was important in the household. So, there were a number of things like that that, that, I think, the lady was Dubby Overstreet and she probably influenced me a lot. ELY: Interesting. And, uh, she was with you through your childhood? JOSEPH: She, she started working for my parents, my grandparents, when I was about five, and she stayed working with the family through the time my kids finished elementary school, when they had their elementary school graduation she was--actually she may have been there for there, one of their high school--[break in recording]--family event, she was a part of. ELY: Hmm. And you still stay in touch with her family? You know her grandchildren? JOSEPH: No. ELY: No? JOSEPH: No, once she, once she died, that, I worked with her family on her estate, but I have not kept track. ELY: And, uh, then where did you go to college? What was that decision making process like? JOSEPH: Uh, well, uh, everyone that I went to camp with, uh, was interested in going to college, to an Ivy League college. Uh, the group that I mentioned, one went to Dartmouth, two went to Harvard, two went to Yale. Uh, so there was an influence to head--and my dad had been at Pennsylvania, and my granddad had been at Cornell. So, the thought was go east. And I was thinking about several schools, um, but there were several schools that had fraternities. And, I was conscious of not going to any school that had Jewish fraternities. I&#039 ; d--the whole high school thing that I mentioned to you was an important thing to me that I wanted to avoid in college. Uh, a good friend of mine, uh, from high school, and fellow named Fred Kurim, who was Lebanese, uh, and had been very important friend of mine since junior--since grade school, actually, uh, went to a school called Wesleyan in Connecticut. Wesleyan at that time was known as part of the &quot ; Little Three&quot ; ; Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan, and the big three were Yale, Harvard and Princeton. And Fred was very influential in getting me to apply to Wesleyan, and, uh, explained that the, that there were fraternities there, but they were fraternities not related to the kind of, did not have the kind of concerns that I did, uh, and, uh, convinced me that it was a very small school, so I had an opportunity to, to meet professors in a way that I wouldn&#039 ; t at a bigger school, and there was no graduate school, so I wasn&#039 ; t competing for the professors&#039 ; time. So I went to Wesleyan. Uh, and I went to Wesleyan with a friend from Atherton who was non-Jewish, um, and we roomed together our first year. Uh, we, we joined a fraternity, which was a very interesting experience because, in my fraternity class, there were, uh, I thin five Jews, five or six Catholics, two blacks, um, everything was, was completely different than most fraternities, and, and, it, it offered an opportunity to--I had Catholic roommates two years, I had a black roommate one year. I&#039 ; ll come back to that because he was a major influence. But it, it was a very expansive, rather than limiting, situation. ELY: So were there, um, explicitly Jewish activities that the fraternity did, or was there another place on campus where you could say, go for high holidays or Passover? JOSEPH: Well, it was a very--there were only, uh, 190 in my class. So, Wesleyan was very small. There was, uh, if there was Hillel at all on campus, uh, I never darkened its doors. ELY: Never found it. JOSEPH: But it was interesting, uh, there was a congregation, uh, two blocks from the fraternity house ; Adath Israel, interestingly. Uh, and I, I attended high holy day services there, and actually, um, was dating the, my first year, dated a woman that I, uh, was, uh, a senior in high school at the time, at Adath Israel, and there was a--so I did participate in, in, in things there. In the fraternity, um, it was interesting because there was always a blessing before the meal, uh, and you rotated through so that you had a mixture of, of, of Jewish blessings, Catholic blessings. We had, uh, the president was Mormon. Um, there was a little bit of everything, which I found, uh, just delightful, and, and, and very interesting. ELY: Ecumenical group. JOSEPH: Absolutely. ELY: And, uh, what years were you in college? JOSEPH: Uh, um, I was in college--I graduated in &#039 ; 65, so I was there from &#039 ; 61 to &#039 ; 65. ELY: So you were in college during a very pivotal time of change on college campuses. JOSEPH: Yes. ELY: So, were you involved at all with politics when you were in college? JOSEPH: Well, I was, I had a special view to history, uh, interestingly. Um, my junior year I roomed with a gentleman named, uh, Ron Young. Uh, Ron had been assistant minister to Reverend, uh, James Lawson--excuse me--who was a minister in, uh, Memphis, and was the person who organized SNCC ; Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee. And had been the mentor of John Lewis. And, Ron took of a year to work with James Lawson as part of the Civil Rights Movement. Wesleyan had, the year that he came back, actually Martin Luther King gave the commencement address at Wesleyan, um, and I had, at that time Wesleyan had the highest number--not the highest percentage, but the highest absolute number of kids going on the Mississippi Summer Project. Um, one of--the fellow who lived next door to me had been, uh, in Cleveland, Mississippi, and between the first floor and the second floor of the jail had gotten a concussion and two broken ribs from the sheriff. Um, so that the Mississippi Summer Project and what was happening in Memphis were not academic things to me. I knew an awful lot of people who had gone to Mississippi, and Ron later became chairman of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, which organized the peace march on Washington. Uh, actually, uh, lived with us in Washington for six months while that was being organized. So, all the commotion in the 60s was very personal, and, uh, having a--it was more personalized by the fact that my third roommate at the time was black, um, and came home with us at one point in 1964, and people think of segregated hotels, etcetera, in the South. The rule coming home from school was, you had to stop--we drove--and you had to stop one night because we didn&#039 ; t want to be too tired. So we were coming through West Virginia and northern Ohio, and we went to eight hotels before they would let the two of us stay in the same room together, notwithstanding the fact that we lived together, uh, all the time. And ultimately, the only reason they did was that he had a dashiki with him and we told them that he was, uh, African royalty so it didn&#039 ; t count, and, and ultimately that&#039 ; s how we did it. It turns out he was from Nigeria, but if we had not explained that he was African royalty, we would probably still be driving looking for a, a hotel. So, all of that, um, was certainly of influence, uh, in terms of, uh, things that, that happened in my world of civil rights. ELY: So, you went to Mississippi then, or later? JOSEPH: I did not. ELY: Okay. JOSEPH: No, I did not, but I knew so many folks that did. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: At that time, uh, I was trying to determine what my thesis was gonna be, because I wanted to graduate with honors ; to do that you had to have a thesis. And, it did convince me that I was going to look at, at--I&#039 ; ll use the terminology of the time--Negro leadership in Louisville. So, I got a grant from the Falk Foundation in Philadelphia, uh, to do, to spend five semesters researching black legal leadership in Louisville, and, uh, had--took off a summer and met with most every meaningful black leader in Louisville, uh, for my thesis. And, subsequently worked for the Human Relations Commission in using some of the data, and the Human Relations Commission published a book that I&#039 ; d written, a pamphlet I&#039 ; d written, uh, on the results of the, of the, of that study. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: And, it gave me, uh, contact with an awful lot of folks I never would have met, um, and it, it--I was blessed by the fact that the family had a tradition with black leadership. The, um, my, um, oldest black funeral home is Porter Funeral Home, and Woody Porter, Sr., uh, was, you may recall, head of the board of trustees of University of Louisville, at the time, um, but my grandfather had designed the first Porter funeral home, and my father worked with, uh, Woody Porter, Sr., on their funeral home, so that there had been a tie in the families that way, where--and Mr. Porter was very helpful in, in getting, um, me the opportunity to meet with Lyman Johnson and a whole lot of other--Frank Stanley, Sr. A number of folks. It turns out that Lyman Johnson, who&#039 ; s a very well-known black leader in Louisville, went to University of Michigan where I was going to law school. So he took me under his wing, and I was helped to find things in ways I never could have done before. ELY: So, do you feel like you were getting a sort of sense of mission? That you were going to help Louisville with its racial divide and-- JOSEPH: There was no mission at that time. ELY: Right. (laughs) JOSEPH: It was purely--it was an academic situation, solely. ELY: Okay. JOSEPH: And, um--excuse me--um, but that was, it was not a mission at that point. ELY: Right. So, you decided in the course of this to go to law school? JOSEPH: I decided to go to law school, um, and I&#039 ; d pretty much had it with the East. It was fairly condescending, um, and I was clearly an outsider. ELY: Because you were a Southerner or Jew or both? JOSEPH: Um, a little bit of both. Um, more, more Southerner, but it was also, um, I was a public school guy, and Wesleyan--as with many of the schools at that time--was about seventy-five percent prep school folks ; Andover, Exeter, Choate, uh, I was at Atherton. And, and, and Atherton at that time did not have the reputation that Andover, Exeter or Choate did. So, there was a little bit of snobbery that way. Um, it was interesting, I had, my first date at Wesleyan was with the twin sister of a very close friend, and my close friend was the son of the president of Lincoln Center, had been president of Julliard and had a--was Jewish--had a very high, uh, social standing in New York. And so, we went out on, we went out on a date. My date said, &quot ; You know, I don&#039 ; t understand how a good school like Wesleyan could allow somebody like you to come, because you don&#039 ; t have the cultural background to absorb, um, the education they&#039 ; re trying to provide.&quot ; And it went downhill from there. ELY: Wow. JOSEPH: So, I very quickly started to realize that, if I was going to have a social life that left any of my ego intact-- ELY: (laughs) JOSEPH: --I would, uh, be dating women who were western and southern, rather than eastern. So, when it came time to, uh, go to law school, um, my professor--my advisor had pushed me very hard, uh, to go to Harvard, and I just wasn&#039 ; t gonna do it. So, Michigan, at that point, had, uh, twenty-eight thousand women, which was twenty-eight thousand more than Wesleyan had, and I decided that that was a good place to go. Uh, and so I ended up in law school in Ann Arbor. ELY: Um-hm. And at what point did you meet your wife? JOSEPH: Um-- ELY: There or later? JOSEPH: No, well--I&#039 ; ll digress to that, okay? ELY: Well, to tell, tell me more about--we&#039 ; ll do it chronologically. JOSEPH: No, well we can do that, because Michigan has a, has a role in that. Um, from the eighth grade through college I was dating, uh, a woman from Louisville, Lynn Lewis, um, who--off and on, but who went to Sophie Newcomb, um, and one of her close friends at Sophie Newcomb was Anne Webman, later to be Anne Joseph. And, uh, um, about our junior year, Anne came home with Lynn and we met at that point, had a date, we were not interested in one another at all, and I continued to date Lynn. And, when I went to Michigan, Lynn transferred from, uh, Newcomb to Michigan, in part so that we could be together. Well, in the intervening years she met and married, uh, Dr. Ken Silk, who&#039 ; s remained a very, very close friend, and Anne and I were both in their wedding. Uh, and, um, still weren&#039 ; t interested in one another, uh, but were with a group of friends who, uh, had us both at their weddings, and ultimately, when I moved to Washington, she moved to Washington the same week from Boston where she had been working, and we started dating then and got married a year later. But we got married through the Louisville connection of, of the Lewis family. ELY: So, back to law school. JOSEPH: I&#039 ; m doing damage to your outline. ELY: No, that&#039 ; s okay. I&#039 ; d rather have it be organic, so that&#039 ; s fine. When you were in law school, did you, um, have a particular vision for the kind of law you wanted to do and where you wanted to do it? JOSEPH: Absolutely. Um, I knew the first day I did not want to be a litigator, did not want to go to court, did not want to talk publically, did not want to do any of those things. Uh, and I didn&#039 ; t want to do--uh, my law school yearbook says, &quot ; Urban Development Law&quot ; as my choice, and I had--I was working for a professor who was very involved in civil rights matters, and we worked on civil rights, and actually, uh, worked with governor, with then Governor Romney--George Romney, not the son-- ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: --on the drafting of the, uh, Michigan open housing statute, and so that most of my research at that time was in civil rights law, and I wrote several papers on urban development, housing statutes, what was happening in, in with then FHA before it became HUD. So, that was what I wanted to do. I wasn&#039 ; t ready to come back to Louisville. I wanted to go to Washington. So, um, uh, my applications were to the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and to the Office of Economic Opportunity, which was the site of, of President Johnson&#039 ; s war on poverty. ELY: HUD must have been brand new then, wasn&#039 ; t it? JOSEPH: I&#039 ; m sorry? ELY: HUD was brand new then? JOSEPH: HUD was absolutely brand new. ELY: Right. JOSEPH: It, it was, um, they were just hiring the initial people, and, uh, uh, I think the first year for HUD was 1967, which was when I was applying, so it was all, it was, everything was new and it was a completely different organization than it is now. ELY: So it&#039 ; s interesting that the civil rights and the family background in architecture kind of come together with the work on housing issues. JOSEPH: Well, it was a very natural thing. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: And, and, uh, I was not unaware of that. My dad had--Dad had wanted me very much to come into the architectural firm, and I, I didn&#039 ; t want to do that for a whole variety of reasons. But when I was at Wesleyan, um, other than the civil rights stuff that I was doing with respect to the, uh, thesis, uh, all of my study was on urban renewal, uh, city planning, uh, history of architecture, uh, and, and, it, it was, so it, but HUD was the place that was most likely that I wanted to be. It turns out that I was much more interested in HUD than they were in me, uh, so I, I did not get a job offer, uh, and, uh, interestingly I didn&#039 ; t get a job--I was turned down at OEO, also. Uh, so I was looking for a job between my second and third years of law school, and I got a call from OEO-- ELY: OEO is? JOSEPH: I&#039 ; m sorry. The Office of Economic Opportunity. ELY: Okay. JOSEPH: The poverty program. ELY: Okay. JOSEPH: From OEO saying, um, in effect, uh, &quot ; We&#039 ; ve, we know we turned you down. Um, the people we wanted, the person we wanted got sick. Are you too proud to, uh, take a job where you&#039 ; re not first choice?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Well, I have a lot of weaknesses, but pride won&#039 ; t, wouldn&#039 ; t interfere with that.&quot ; So, I, uh, worked with them, with OEO, my second, after my second year in law school. Just loved it. It was a remarkable, remarkable group of people, uh, and they offered me a job after law school, and so, that&#039 ; s where I ended up there. But, it, the, the people that Johnson had working for Sargent Shriver, and Sarge had, were just remarkable. ELY: And what kind of work did you do there? JOSEPH: Um, OEO was divided into several groups. I was with the, what was called community action, and community action, uh, had, uh, a variety of programs, initiated a variety of programs, including Head Start, uh, legal services, foster grandparents, uh, and a variety of manpower programs. Um, my principle thing was with manpower programs, although I was, uh, worked with interagency civil rights group, um, with folks like John Doar, at civil rights, justice, uh, and, um, uh, create, and, and, programs, uh, innovative programs like healthcare with Park DuValle Health Center was funded by OEO in 1968, uh, I did the legal sign off on that. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Uh, and, so, it was a variety of things. I did not do, um, Vista--any of the Vista work, and did not do any Job Corps work. So basically there were three, three major areas, and I was doing mostly research and development and manpower kinds of things. ELY: So when you lived in Washington--and what years were you in Washington? JOSEPH: I was in Washington, um, the summer of &#039 ; 67 through &#039 ; 72. ELY: Okay. Uh, so where&#039 ; d you live in Washington? JOSEPH: Uh, I lived in George--in Georgetown, right across, uh, on Twenty-fifth Street, right across, uh, the Rock Creek Parkway, and worked, um, near DuPont Circle. Uh, while I was with OEO. Later when, uh, Anne and I were married, uh, we, uh, moved to, uh, southeast, uh, four blocks behind the Library of Congress. ELY: You were pioneers in Capitol Hill area? JOSEPH: It was a bizarre area. Um, it was becoming gentrified. Our street had about half professionals and half welfare folks. Uh, and all of the, um, controversies, uh, were other than what you would anticipate. Uh, for example, uh, there was a very, very well-known house of prostitution, uh, around the corner from us, uh, and the major-- ELY: Close to the Capitol. Makes sense, yeah. Yeah. JOSEPH: It was the Capitol. Uh, and, the issue was that, on Saturday night, because of the, uh, the occupation and the interest in the community, it was very hard for the residents to park. So we had to negotiate parking, uh, a parking arrangement, where they didn&#039 ; t interfere with the residents. But it was a wonderful situation in that everyone talked to one another ; our next door neighbor was on welfare, our congressman was, lived across the street from us, and everyone really got along. Um, it was a very, very high crime area. There was no house--in the year and a half we lived there, there was no house that was not burglarized, uh, including ours ; we were burglarized one night. Uh, and, when you walked down the street, uh, after dark, you walked in the middle of the road. You didn&#039 ; t walk on the sidewalk. But, I was, by that time, I was working on the Hill and could walk to work very easily, and, and loved being down there. It, it was a very rapidly changing area, though. ELY: Was there a Jewish community there, in the area? Or were you part of a Jewish community when you went to Washington? JOSEPH: Well, we were very, we were part of the Jewish community, but, but there was, there was no synagogue on Capitol Hill, that I remember. We, we joined a synagogue, uh, uh, actually, that was in Maryland, uh, we were married in Washington at Temple Sinai. Uh, and, part of the reason for that was the Rabbi was extraordinarily, uh, well-respected gentleman in D.C. ; he was the head of the ACLU, which fascinated me, and, and, we were very--we were active at the temple there, but not in, uh, downtown Washington. ELY: So, at some point something brought you back to Louisville? JOSEPH: I&#039 ; d already, I&#039 ; d always known that, um, uh, I was gonna come back to Louisville, and at the point that, uh, um, it became clearer that, that I didn&#039 ; t want to stay in Washington. Uh, I&#039 ; d left OEO and was civil rights counsel for House judiciary, which was an interesting experience that I, I gather will come up in your questioning. But, um, I wanted to come back to Louisville. I&#039 ; d always wanted to come back to Louisville and Anne knew I wanted to come back to Louisville. So, um, we, in &#039 ; 72, decided that that was the time, and we took--we didn&#039 ; t--there were a lot of things we wanted to do, so we sold everything we owned, took seven months and came from the Arctic Circle to the Sahara, um, before coming back, and, um, then came back to Louisville to, to practice law with a private law firm. ELY: Interesting. Will you have a story about the House judiciary when you were there, or? JOSEPH: Well, House judiciary was interesting because, um, I was doing a, um, primarily involved in, uh, working with the enforcement of the Voting Rights Act, and, uh, President Nixon, uh, and John Mitchell were really doing everything possible not to enforce the Voting Rights Act because southern states were their primary voting base, um, and I as co-counsel-- ELY: Sounds so familiar. (both laugh) Go on. JOSEPH: Things don&#039 ; t change. But, uh, I was co-counsel with a fellow who, black lawyer, who was, had been at Columbia law school, been born in Havana, uh, and the two of us had some, uh, really interesting experiences, uh, partly relating to being Jewish. I spent a lot of time in Mississippi, um, um, which was the concentration of our study, uh, and was down there for weeks at a time, and, was interesting because we were not allowed to travel, uh, without FBI protection. So if we left Jackson to go to Coahoma County, we would have an FBI agent as a driver, uh, and my most interesting experience was, uh, the Hinds County registrar was very cooperative, and, uh, very helpful. Asked, we were there over a weekend, and he said, &quot ; Would you come to my brother&#039 ; s house for dinner one night?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Be happy to, but I have to clear it with the FBI.&quot ; So I got FBI clearance for, to go to the house, and we sat down to dinner, and in Southern tradition, his brother-in-law was at the head of the table and I was sitting to his right and his wife was at the other end of the table, and she brought out a plate of pork chops. And, uh, I don&#039 ; t keep kosher, have never have, so the gentleman offered me the platter and I took it, and put a pork chop on my plate, and he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m glad you took that. If I thought you were one of those New York Jews, and if you hadn&#039 ; t eaten that I would have blown your head off.&quot ; Um, and that was Mississippi at the time. ELY: Wow. JOSEPH: Um, and, um, so I was very, the Jewishness was mixed in, aside from the fact that being from Kentucky I was a northerner, which was an interesting experience, um, uh, there was a, a, a, clearly a Jewish consciousness in the whole Mississippi situation. And, I had been very conscious of the Jewish civil rights aspect of things because at OEO, the two people that were really involved in organizational kind of things, came--it filtered over as principle, um, hearing subjects, at, at, at House judiciary, where a gentleman named Hy Bookbinder, who was later, uh, who, at that point, the intergovernmental relations director at OEO, uh, and was subsequently the chief lobbyist for the American Jewish Committee, uh, and he was very, very involved in Jewish activities, and, and whatever, and brought a Jewish perspective to this whole aspect of poverty and civil rights. Um, he is somebody that I stayed close to, and he had offered me a job as his assistant as lobbyist for AJC, and I didn&#039 ; t want it. It wasn&#039 ; t enough law, I didn&#039 ; t want to do that. Another fellow was named Joe Rauh, uh, who, uh, was the chairman of the, um, conference on civil, Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, and was a principal draftsman for the Civil Rights Act of &#039 ; 64 and the Voting Rights Act of &#039 ; 65. And so that, when you were involved in, in, in leadership activities at, um, the legislative level, the Jewish community was very, very visible. Uh, and both Joe Rauh and Booky were, were, made one very conscious that if you were Jewish, you were in the place that, that other were, were leading. ELY: Um-hm. And, uh, that consciousness of the Jewish involvement in the Civil Rights Movement was part of the consciousness of the people who were in the South, who-- JOSEPH: Oh, sure. ELY: --dubious, the guy was gonna blow your head off, was, um, not only aware that you were Jewish, he was making distinctions between a true southern Jew and one of those northerners. JOSEPH: Well, I think that, that, that an awful lot of southern folks thought that every Jew was a civil rights person, and, and a communist. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: And, um, of course a lot of the Jewish leadership, like Hy Bookbinder, came from garment workers and other labor unions. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Um, uh, and from big cities and organizational things, the organizational skills that they brought to the movement came from, from labor, in, in many ways. Um, but yeah, for sure the South was, was conscious. ELY: Um-hm. So, when you came, uh, back to Louisville, there were some people working on civil rights issues and open housing issues at that point, or was that more earlier than when you came back? JOSEPH: Well, I was out, I was away from Louisville from 1961 to 1973. ELY: Okay. JOSEPH: And, a lot of the sit-ins and things of that nature, uh, had passed. But, the big issue, aside--and, and some of the white testing that Anne Braden did, and, and whatever, was still lingering, but I--it wasn&#039 ; t something that I was involved in. Um, the thing that, that I was most involved in, I came back, I was chairman of, uh, Legal Aid Society, which was the principle counsel for the plaintiffs in the bussing issue. And so, um, several times during the time that I was chairman of legal aid, we had the grand poohbah of the Klan come to our meetings. Uh, and, uh, that relationship was an, an interesting one. Um, but, but of all the civil rights movements that were most active at the time I came back, it was clearly a blessing. ELY: Um-hm. And this was when they were integrating Jefferson County Public Schools? JOSEPH: Yes. ELY: Right. JOSEPH: And, and, I can&#039 ; t, I can&#039 ; t do--my capacity to do timing is, is difficult. Things have sort of melded. But, there, there was an old city, City of Louisville school system, and there was a county system, and the four city schools were Atherton, Shawnee, Male and Manual, and Central, because of course Central was the black school. And then other schools--Waggener, Seneca, Iroquois, all were county schools, and the city school system went bankrupt and, which caused the merger. And, somewhere around that time, that hit at the same time of, as bussing, so that, that there was restructuring of, of school boundaries based on both, uh, the bussing orders of the court, as well as the restructuring of the whole board of education. ELY: Hmm. And, at that time in the 70s, the Jewish community was pretty much moved to the suburbs, right? There was very little still in old Louisville? JOSEPH: Very little in old Louisville. Um, uh, there was still a high presence in the Highlands, but it was moving out, it was moving east, which was why the temple, uh, moved out there and Brith Sholom, and there was a merger with Brith Sholom and Adath Israel. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: And, um, then Kneseth moved out into the Highlands also. So, yeah, that was, um, I don&#039 ; t remember when the major presence was, was downtown, and, um-- ELY: So, do, do you remember what the Jewish community&#039 ; s reaction was to bussing? To the, um, agitation that was going on in the early 70s? JOSEPH: I, I, speaking as to what the-- ELY: Did everyone suddenly go to private school, or? JOSEPH: There were, there were--there really was, it was sort of as you expected ; the Jewish community was all over, although it&#039 ; s supposed to be speak with one voice, it hardly ever does. Um, we had friends that were very committed to, um, to bussing, and, and had their kids bussed. We had friends that had, um, um, uh, that sent their kids to private school. Um, it really was a mixture. Um, if I had to characterize generally, I think the, the Jewish community was more pro-bussing than anti-bussing. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Um, but it was a time of, of, the school system was, was, was very much in turmoil. Um, um, my two girls went to private school until high school because our neighborhood school, which was Chenoweth, uh, Brownsville Road and Chenoweth Lane was a disaster. Um, it was just one of the worst schools in town. Now, it wasn&#039 ; t a West End school, but we just couldn&#039 ; t, both girls, we, we were very wary of doing that. We did not send them to private school because we didn&#039 ; t want them bussed, but we couldn&#039 ; t get comfortable with the, with our neighborhood school. ELY: Right. So, since you brought up your family, so you and Anne were married in Washington. JOSEPH: Yes. ELY: And you moved back here, and, uh, you had two girls. JOSEPH: Yes. ELY: Uh, early 70s? JOSEPH: Uh, &#039 ; 74 and &#039 ; 79. ELY: And what are you daughters&#039 ; names? JOSEPH: Uh, our older daughter is Alix, A-l-i-x. She is a lawyer that lives in, in Denver. Uh, she is, uh, actually, uh, very involved in Jewish things growing up. She, at the time, when she was in high school, there was something called Junior Council, which was an affiliate of the National Council of Jewish Women, and they had programs for high school girls to do a variety of social, um, community, as distinguished from fun, community kinds of things, and she was local president and then was national president of Junior Council. Uh, and, uh, ended up being able to testify on the Hill when she was in high school. Uh, so she was very involved in, in, uh, Jewish communal affairs very early. Uh, she&#039 ; s, uh, uh, now a lawyer, lawyer, and she moved to Colorado to be a park ranger at Rocky Mountain National Park, and fell in love with the mountains. So she stayed in Denver and her interest has been primarily environmental. Her practice is water law. Um, and our younger daughter, uh, is, um, here in Louisville. Uh, she went to Wesleyan, following in my footsteps, uh, got very interested in things happening with museums, worked for the, uh, Kentucky Derby Museum, uh--[unrelated voice-over heard]--then, then got a, um, master&#039 ; s in museum education, and was the assistant director of education at the Ali Center, which was interesting because she had also been involved in, in working in the black community, and that was a wonderful opportunity, and now is, uh, I&#039 ; m not sure of her title, but, uh, works at, um, the Bernheim Arboretum doing community involvement, and, and training in volunteer work, coordination of volunteers. So, she&#039 ; s still here, um, and, uh, working at Bernheim. ELY: Okay. And we&#039 ; re skipping ahead in time. We&#039 ; ll go back again, but do you have grandchildren? JOSEPH: I have two grand boys, uh, two grandsons in, in Denver, and, um, it&#039 ; s an interesting thing that the family tradition of having the toilet seat down has now been changed, so. (both laugh) ELY: So, when your kids were growing up, when you and Anne had your own family, what kind of Jewish involvement did you have? Were you affiliated with the temple, or what kind of education did your girls have, Jewishly? JOSEPH: Well, um, I became a--I&#039 ; ll back up a minute. When I came back to Louisville-- ELY: &#039 ; Kay. JOSEPH: --I started a practice with Handmaker, Weber &amp ; Meyer, and Stuart Handmaker was the managing member, um, and Stuart was, at that time, chairman of the federation, president of the federation, and very involved in, in community activities. Shelly Weber was president of Jewish Hospital, very involved in things, and the two of them, uh, were very, uh, influential in getting me involved in communal activities. I had not been primarily interested in Jewish communal activities ; on was on a community action agency board, I was president of Legal Aid. Uh, it was in the broader community, and both of them sort of reined me in and said, &quot ; Wait a minute. You have an obligation to the Jewish community. Let&#039 ; s see what happens.&quot ; So they got me involved in the Community Relations Council of the federation, which was right up, the area that I, uh, really was most involved with. And, um, that, that was sort of the beginning of, of my involvement with the Jewish community. I was chairman of CRC [Community Relations Committee] for a number of years, um, and because of that, the girls started getting a little bit more involved in things, uh, um, because they would, everywhere I went, they were lead, uh, uh, and, uh, so they saw the involvement that I was doing. Anne was working, uh, for, um, National Council of Jewish Women projects at Park DuValle and on four Cs [Community Coordinated Child Care], and so, they saw both their parents, uh, doing things in the Jewish community, um, which is one reason Alix got involved with council, Junior Council, and, um, at that, the time Amy was in high school, uh, was when Kesher Kentucky was beginning, uh, and Amy was in the first class of Kesher, uh, which was a real influence on her. At that time, Kesher had an active program of history and of a variety of things, and it was a-- ELY: Sort of a high school program for-- JOSEPH: Yeah. ELY: --Jewish youth. JOSEPH: Yeah, a high school program for Jewish youth. And, so both of them were involved in Jewish activities. Neither of them, both of them started out at the center in a D.B. Wylde program, and neither of them found it interesting, and neither of them participated particularly in that. Um, both of them, unlike their parents, were bat mitvahed. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Uh, and, um, uh, both of them had a very good experience in that regard. ELY: And you had the usual Passover Seders and Hanukkah celebrations, and? JOSEPH: Well, it&#039 ; s interesting because that&#039 ; s a major change from when I was growing up. Anne&#039 ; s family, uh, was quite different from mine. Mine was old German background, um, most recent arrival was 1850. Uh, Anne&#039 ; s father was born in Russia, came to the United States, um, in the 20s. Anne&#039 ; s mom left Poland in 1939. Anne&#039 ; s grandmother, and we&#039 ; ve counted twenty-eight cousins, were killed in the camps. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: So, her background was very Easter European. Uh, as distinguished from mine. And the great tradition in her family was the Passover Seder, and there would be--depending on who you listened to--tens or hundreds of people at the, at her Seder, but the thing that always happened in the family because of Anne was we always had a big Seder. Uh, Anne, um, that was a real big deal. We, uh, also did not have a Christmas tree, like when I was growing up. So, there was a tempering of, uh, uh, uh, how celebrations occurred, um, in the house, but Passover was a really big deal and continues to, to be one of the major family trans--family happenings. ELY: Did you find you had any clashes about, uh, practice and philosophy with the Easter European versus German doctrine? JOSEPH: I know who&#039 ; s boss ; we never have a clash. ELY: Okay. (both laugh) JOSEPH: No, actually, I&#039 ; ve found, I&#039 ; ve found the tradition just wonderful, uh, and, it, it grew because we, I have, most of my social friends continue to be non-Jewish, so that they were part of the, uh, they became part of the group. Um, digressing a little, um, when I came back to Louisville, I was asked by the American Civil Liberty Union to litigate a case where a U of L student had been arrested because he had a marijuana plant in his window, and as part of the search warrant, they took, um, fifteen text books that had been sold at U of L bookstore as part of a psychology of drugs class. Uh, and, the Jefferson County Police Department was gonna burn the books, um, because there was a statute that said books and records seized in connection with controlled substances are to be destroyed. Uh, now, the normal reading for that would be ledger-slash- account books, rather than U of L text books. ELY: Right. JOSEPH: Um, but, um, the prosecuting attorney didn&#039 ; t read it that way. And so I took the case for ACLU, and a young man named Dave Armstrong was, um, running against then county--Commonwealth Attorney, Ed Schroering. And I went to Dave and I said, &quot ; Dave, what do you think about this?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Books means books and records. It doesn&#039 ; t mean text books. We&#039 ; re not Nazi Germany.&quot ; We don&#039 ; t, that was the foundation of the relationship with Dave. Um, I later managed several of his campaigns and we were very close friends, and back to the segue, for every Seder that we&#039 ; ve ever had, Dave Armstrong was a member of this, was at the Seder. We&#039 ; d go to his house for Christmas Eve, and he comes to our house for Seder. Um, and, uh, so the Seder has become, was a very important part of the family tradition. ELY: Right. And, for purposes of the record, he was the county judge/executive, and then the mayor? JOSEPH: David started as Commonwealth Attorney-- ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: --which is a prosecutor, uh, and then he became attorney general, Kentucky attorney general, uh, and then became county judge/executive and then the mayor. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: And, after that became, um, uh, commissioner, uh, commissioner of the Public Service Commission. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: But also very active in Jewish events, interestingly. Uh, went to the Soviet Union on behalf of immigration of Soviet Jews. ELY: Um-hm. Great. There&#039 ; s so many things we could keep talking about. We&#039 ; ve been talking for an hour and a half. I don&#039 ; t know if you want to take a break and we&#039 ; ll go on. JOSEPH: I&#039 ; m fine. ELY: Okay. I&#039 ; m okay. Um-- JOSEPH: I will take a drink of water. ELY: All right. Uh, I don&#039 ; t want to skip over your adult professional career here. I don&#039 ; t want to give it short shrift, because you&#039 ; ve been involved as an attorney and in the Jewish community with a lot of things that, that are going on, but rather than try to take it chronologically, maybe I could just ask if you have, um, stories or insights or things that you feel are important turning points you&#039 ; ve been involved with, either as part of your law practice, or your work on the Community Relations board, or, it&#039 ; s a very open-ended question, but. JOSEPH: I noticed. ELY: Yes. (laughs) JOSEPH: Um, well in terms of practice, it&#039 ; s been interesting because, um, I started out, my practice is focused on real estate matters, uh, on commercial real estate rather than residential, and I started out representing developers, um, doing planning and zoning work, doing contract work, doing a variety of things, which was interesting. And, about mid-practice, about, doing that after about twenty years, I started representing lenders, which was a completely different kind of practice, but also in the real estate world, um, and doing two different kinds of things, it&#039 ; s sort of like representing plaintiffs and defendants in litigation ; they&#039 ; re completely different perspectives. I, I learned a different way of trying to, to look at projects. And in the last part of my practice, starting in about 1997, I got back to my roots and have concentrated primarily on public projects, focusing on affordable housing. So that, starting in 1996 started working on Park DuValle for the housing authority, and then have worked with Liberty Green and with Sheppard Square, and now beginning to work on Russell, which are the major, uh, innovative housing programs in the community, um, and along the way because of some, uh, um, relationships that were trying to do creative programming, uh, worked on the development of Fourth Street Live and on, uh, creation of the renaissance zone, where UPS is. So, I&#039 ; ve been fortunate to work on major projects, and, uh, and the fun part of all that is that, all of those, all of those projects require, involve displacement of people. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Um, and-- ELY: And, just to characterize, they were, it&#039 ; s blighted public housing projects that were then revitalized through better design and involvement of the community, is-- JOSEPH: Yes. ELY: Okay. JOSEPH: Well, on the housing, on the public, they, the, the public housing programs were, that were called HOPE VI projects, which involved, which were a recognition of the fact that housing needs to be of mixed income, that if you, if you ghettoize folks, only poor folks, you have, you create a variety of problems that HUD never saw before, so that, for example, Park DuValle was supposed to be a third public housing, a third folks of income 50 percent or less of median, and a third market, and, uh, that, uh, but it involved tearing down all of the old public housing and starting anew. So, it was a very creative program that involved zoning questions. Zoning is traditionally, in Louisville at least, concentrated on, on, in a residential way, on dealing with farm property so they weren&#039 ; t, and, and being able just to start off from anew, we had to deal with very small lots to make them affordable. We had to write new zoning districts, we had to convince the people who were living there that they could be, that their needs could be accommodated. The fears of the people involved were dramatic, and when we moved into Park DuValle, there&#039 ; s a, uh, fire station there, and, that we needed to modify, and people there were convinced that the hose tower were century points where folks were putting cameras and listening devices to see what was happening. Every kind of, of, of concern you can think of was there. And so, it put me back in my roots where I was talking to the, to the local people, talking, and, and the background that I&#039 ; d had working in Mississippi and in Georgia and in some other places, really was, was much more important, uh, than whether I could draft a strong deed or a contract. Uh, and I found it just fascinating. So, my practice switched to, to where that was going. Uh, and, um, um, it&#039 ; s been interesting because it&#039 ; s all new ground. The, the new Russell program, uh, is one of the first four in the country, uh, and no one, uh, knows exactly how that&#039 ; s gonna be implemented, uh, any more than we knew how Park DuValle was gonna be implemented in 1996. So, the advantage to me is it puts me, it&#039 ; s dealing with architectural design community stuff, meeting people, uh, talking with folks, and working for a social good, and to get paid for that is pretty remarkable. ELY: Um-hm. And are you still involved with these projects in Louisville? JOSEPH: Oh, yeah. ELY: Yeah. Its sounds like-- JOSEPH: Oh, yeah. ELY: --it&#039 ; s a present passion. JOSEPH: It, it, it is, and the, the, my, the advantage is that I can, uh, don&#039 ; t have to be in the office all day, but with computers and communication can stay in touch, uh, but I&#039 ; m very much involved and very much enjoying it. ELY: Great. And, uh, you&#039 ; ve also been involved with studying and recording the history of Louisville&#039 ; s Jewish community. This is something, you&#039 ; re on the archival project that the, not the federation, the Jewish community-- JOSEPH: JCL. ELY: JCL is running, or? JOSEPH: There&#039 ; s a group of folks that are working on an archive, um, which I think will be an exciting project, because the Jewish community in Louisville, uh, has had such an impact on, on the community. From a business perspective, from a professional perspective, uh, from all kinds of perspectives, medical perspective. And, uh, this, there are things that people have in their attics and storage that they have no, no idea what to do with or how to organize, and, um, a very meaningful experience for me was to be chairman of the Kentucky Oral History Commission, uh, for several years, and work as a part of the, and I was, was on the executive committee of the Kentucky Historical Society, and see how professionals deal with things of that nature, um, uh, I, I, on a personal basis, have gotten very interested in the family history issue. Maybe I&#039 ; ve noticed and have written a book for my grandkids that&#039 ; s now about nine hundred pages, uh, and deals with all kinds of things that I had never, ever could have imagined finding. And, I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m hoping that--the group is excited about the archival program not only because it&#039 ; s gonna preserve some things, which is basically what archiving is, but it will cause folks to, to think about how those things were a product of their time, how they related to other, other, um, parts of the community. Um, I was involved last year when, um, the public library bought, brought the Anne Frank exhibit to Louisville, and had sort of, had worked with both JCL and the library on the institution of that program, and I was very moved several times--I&#039 ; ve been on the library board for twenty years, so I spend time at the library. And I would go down to the library and, and sit, and see people wandering through that exhibit, and, and many of those people had no idea who Anne Frank was, no idea really of what the Holocaust was about, um, and had been unable to personalize any of the results, uh, anything about that period of history. And, they were people who, by their demeanor, who by their attire, clearly were not highly educated folks that were focusing on the larger meanings of the world, but who were very interested in that and who were clearly moved by it. And, and my perspective on the archive is that, that, uh, we have the opportunity to take, uh, parts of the Jewish community and, and, and use them in ways to relate to parts of the, of town that have no relationship with the Jewish community, and make them aware of, of what the, what Jewish impact has been, Jewish community impact has been on town. Um, the, the breadth of things with which Jews have been involved, the amount of involvement in things they&#039 ; d never anticipated ; Rabbi Waller was chairman of the Louisville Board of Education, um, there are all kinds of things like that. And I think that, so that I&#039 ; m interested in the archives not only to save the stuff, um, but to create a, a, to use that as a basis for programming that has a really board community relations, uh, component to it, um, because I think it&#039 ; s much easier for people to see things and relate to them, than to read about it in a history book. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Um, even if you could get it in a history book. ELY: So it&#039 ; s history outreach, in a way? JOSEPH: Yeah, and community outreach. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: History outreach and community outreach, and I think it offers an opportunity for the Jewish community to get involved in ways that they haven&#039 ; t been since, uh, heritage weekends. Years ago, um, there were, you get two or three hundred volunteers to staff what was the Jewish heritage program on the Belvedere, and those programs have sort of disappeared. And I think that, that it&#039 ; s an opportunity to create within young people, that have no idea, Jewish people who have no idea what, what the, their elders have done here to learn about it, and for, for volunteers to get back involved. ELY: Um-hm. The, um, local community here seems to really take an interest in its own history, whenever it is presented, whenever it has an opportunity to do that, but you&#039 ; re right ; lately there have not been a lot of opportunities. So-- JOSEPH: Well, as you know from writing the premier book on the subject-- ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: --there&#039 ; s, there&#039 ; s a lot of stuff around, and if you, if you get people talking, they&#039 ; ll talk about it. ELY: Right. JOSEPH: But, but, but I think that the challenge is to get that in an organized manner, and to use it as a basis for programming, rather than to, to just take a snapshot. ELY: Well, what do you think is the, uh, future of this archives project? Is there an organization in town that will, that will host this? Is there a repository? JOSEPH: The archives committee has, is, is unan--has done a lot of work on that subject, has interviewed a variety of potential partners because we recognize that we don&#039 ; t have the technical expertise to deal with it, and is unanimously recognizing the Filson Society to do that. The Filson has traditionally, uh, not had a large Jewish collection, uh, but has expressed a very strong interest in changing that. And their current director, uh, was director of the library for years, and, uh, is, is committed to a, a strong outreach program, and, with the Jewish content, and has spoken at length with a number of us about the kind of outreach that I&#039 ; ve talked about. And programming is very excited about it. I&#039 ; ve talked to a number of members of the directors of the Filson and they&#039 ; re, they&#039 ; re just as excited as they can be about it. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: So, I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m really optimistic, because I think it takes a professional kind of competence to deal with that. They have on staff some wonderful folks, two of whom, for example, have been, uh, uh, uh, professional archivists at the American Jewish Archives in Cincinnati. So, I think that the potential for this is just overwhelming. ELY: Um-hm. And what stories would you like to see told, once there&#039 ; s the archives and there&#039 ; s a possibility of doing exhibits or educational programs or outreach? What, what do you think this community&#039 ; s story--needs to be told? JOSEPH: Well, I think that there are, there are some stories that nobody thinks about. Um, one of the things that Louisville, um, is very proud of is Crusade for Children, for example. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Crusade for Children, uh, started out, has always, the allocation has always been by the staff of the moral side of the news. The moral side of the news was originally--the three original folks were Rabbi Waller, uh, um, Monsignor Horrigan, and Duke McCall, president--Dr. McCall, president of the seminary. I think that, that, that this pro--that the Crusade is something the city is really proud of, and a Jew, a, a Rabbi was very influential in getting that whole thing started, as best I understand it. Uh, he was president of the board of education, there&#039 ; s a public school named after him, um, I don&#039 ; t, I don&#039 ; t think that the community at large recognizes the influence of the Jewish community on, on, on so many things. If you look at the, the business history of the community, um, the major stores, Bensinger&#039 ; s, uh, Kaufman-Straus, um, uh, Ben Snider, um, were Jewish stores. You look at so many different areas, um, uh, in a professional nature. Uh, some of the major medical programs in, in, in the country, come from Jews in Louisville. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: Um, Jewish Hospital for years was the premier heart transplant center and a spectacular hospital for them because Jews could not get, uh, um, uh, could not be on the service of other hospitals. ELY: Um-hm. JOSEPH: I think that in the same way that current, the current black comm--black youth don&#039 ; t recognize what their history is, I don&#039 ; t think Jews recognize what, the young Jewish community doesn&#039 ; t recognize what their history is, and I don&#039 ; t think that adults think about the impact that we&#039 ; ve had here. ELY: Yeah, I was shocked recently when people were mentioning famous Louisvillians, how Louis Brandeis just didn&#039 ; t come up in people&#039 ; s minds. They just didn&#039 ; t, didn&#039 ; t think of him. JOSEPH: Well, and, and interestingly, not only Brandeis, but for lawyers, the first major-- ELY: The--yeah. JOSEPH: The first major treatise on Kentucky law was written by Dembitz. ELY: Dembitz. Right. JOSEPH: Who is his cousin. ELY: Um-hm. And the role of the Flexnors in medicine, and, yeah, there, there are a lot of stories. JOSEPH: So, I, I think that&#039 ; s it&#039 ; s a win-win thing for all kinds of folks. ELY: Um-hm. So is there anything I haven&#039 ; t asked you that you would like to be on the record talking about? Anything in your professional life? Any thoughts about the Jewish community today? JOSEPH: I think we&#039 ; ve covered, uh, covered things pretty well. ELY: &#039 ; Kay. Well, thank you so much for this interview. JOSEPH: It&#039 ; s a pleasure. ELY: It&#039 ; s great talking to you. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2017oh035_jk044_joseph_ohm.xml 2017oh035_jk044_joseph_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2017oh035_jk044_joseph_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Fred Joseph, February 3, 2017 Description An account of the resource Fred Joseph discusses in great detail his family history and genealogy. He talks about their immigration to America from various places in Germany. He describes their history once they arrived in America, including their many accomplishments, specifically in the field of architecture. He discusses his childhood growing up in a Baptist community in Louisville, Kentucky. He talks about his family's Jewish traditions, his parents' involvement in the Jewish community, and his experiences with anti-Semitism. He discusses his inspiration for his work in the field of civil rights, which led to his work with Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) and other forms of activism. He discusses his education at Wesleyan University and University of Michigan Law School before his career with the Office of Economic Opportunity (OEO) and as civil rights counsel for the House Judiciary. He discusses the integration of Jefferson County public schools and litigating a case for the ACLU in Louisville. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2017oh035_jk044 Subject The topic of the resource Antisemitism. Anti-Semitism. Families. Genealogy Jews--Identity. Judaism. Discrimination. Louisville (Ky.) Jewish children Jewish families. Worship (Judaism) Childhood Religion Civil rights Wesleyan University Education, Higher Higher education Washington (D.C.) African American leadership University of Michigan Housing development Lawyers--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/5013a6c9cb72c312b99b366666868db1.jpg 518d146635e644a80582904a3ab80cba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Weinberg Interview Keyword Immigrants--Kentucky Jewish merchants--Kentucky--Louisville. United States. Air Force. Reserve Officers' Training Corps United States. Army--Reserves Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Education OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh423_jk042 Interview with David Weinberg, November 10, 2016 2016oh423_jk042 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Genealogy Jewish businesspeople Families. Religion University of Kentucky College students--Social conditions College students--Religious life Jews--Identity. Louisville (Ky.) Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Immigrants--Kentucky Jewish merchants--Kentucky--Louisville. United States. Air Force. Reserve Officers' Training Corps United States. Army--Reserves Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Education David Weinberg Janice Crane 1:|20(5)|44(6)|58(14)|102(14)|126(4)|166(8)|191(7)|201(3)|221(6)|247(6)|258(10)|270(10)|289(11)|310(1)|327(3)|354(7)|371(8)|383(5)|401(7)|414(7)|443(3)|461(8)|504(1)|524(4)|535(5)|546(8)|562(5)|583(5)|606(10)|614(17)|635(5)|663(3)|680(9)|693(10)|709(11)|726(7)|738(8)|750(9)|763(11)|782(1)|790(14)|807(5)|818(13)|836(1)|847(8)|864(10)|887(7)|896(1)|905(6)|921(14)|955(4)|967(10)|987(1)|998(9)|1011(7)|1021(14)|1031(11)|1044(11)|1062(4)|1073(14)|1090(2)|1103(9)|1123(3)|1141(1)|1150(12)|1163(11)|1177(4)|1198(3)|1210(10)|1228(6)|1246(16)|1256(2)|1269(4)|1301(4)|1316(3)|1327(8)|1335(10)|1345(6)|1357(3)|1369(10)|1380(2)|1390(1)|1402(14)|1414(11)|1433(13)|1443(16)|1460(16)|1475(6)|1490(9)|1503(11)|1515(9)|1526(13)|1540(6)|1559(10)|1572(9)|1585(14)|1598(13)|1610(3)|1620(9)|1635(7)|1647(1)|1668(12)|1687(9)|1707(1)|1721(9)|1731(3)|1743(7)|1757(9)|1768(7)|1784(3)|1796(3)|1814(6) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253333413&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 2 Introduction For official purposes, today is November 10th, 2016 and my name is Janice Crane... Interviewer Janice Crane begins by explaining her friendship with and connections to interviewee David Weinberg. She then prompts him to give basic information concerning his name and birthplace. Birthplace ; Given names ; Norman David Weinberg Louisville (Ky.) 17 84 Family background I know that both of your parents have passed away, but for the record and because they are part of your story, what were their names, and about when and where were they born? Weinberg delves into his family's past. He begins discussing his parents' birthplaces and birth years, and then goes back to detail both sets of grandparents' origins, name changes in America, and how they came to settle in Kentucky. Weinberg also talks about his sister, Gail ; wife, Beverly ; two children, Scott and Lindsey ; and his five grandchildren. 1907 ; 1915 ; 1940 ; Abe Weinberg ; Anne Miriam Weinberg ; Bessie Price ; Beverly Eileen Bass Weinberg ; Children ; Eloise Lily Weinberg ; Esther Libby Berman ; Ethan Benjamin Rossen ; Fathers ; Grandchildren ; Grandparents ; Issac Blizniak ; Jane Beatrice Weinberg ; Kirsch ; Lindsey Paige Weinberg Rossen ; Mothers ; Name changes ; Phillip R. Levy ; Rita Gail Weinberg Levy ; Russia ; Saul Weinberg ; Scott Allen Weinberg ; Sisters ; Sophie Gabrielle Rossen ; Warsaw (Poland) ; Weston (Conn.) ; Wives Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 508 Father's butcher shop and Preston Street during the late 1940s and early 1950s What were their occupations of your parents? Weinberg talks about his father's kosher meat market in the shtetl on Preston Street, as well as some of the other Jewish-owned stores in the area. He recounts details about going to get freshly slaughtered chickens for the shop. Weinberg also mentions his father's death and selling of the butcher store. Butcher shops ; Clare Meat Products ; Golde's ; Goldy's ; Jewish businesses ; Kosher ; Pozitzer's ; Preston Street ; Schlossberg's ; Shochet ; Shoe shops ; Shtetl ; Slaughtering ; Strasberg ; Wittenbaum Shoes Families. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jewish merchants--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 910 Keeping kosher Um, did your family keep kosher? In this segment, Weinberg talks about his family's kosher traditions and how he continued those after his parents' passings while he lived with his aunt and uncle. He also talks about going out to Kosher restaurants and explains what the Vaad Hakashruth was. Aunts ; Cincinnati (Ohio) ; Grandparents ; Kosher restaurants ; Kroger ; Orthodox ; Parents ; Parents' passings ; Uncles ; Vaad Hakashruth Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 39.1, -84.516667 17 Cincinnati (Ohio) 1173 Louisville Jewish community in the 1950s and 1960s Um, when you were growing up, where did you go to school? Weinberg talks about his public elementary through high school education, as well as the large Jewish population he was surrounded by during those years of his life. He mentions that there was a small Black population when he attended Seneca High, but that they got along well and he never had any issues with anti-Semitism. Weinberg also talks about his family and the neighborhood he grew up in, detailing certain holiday celebrations, such as Shabbat. Anti-Semitism ; Atherton High School ; Belknap Elementary School ; Henry Clay Hotel ; Highland Junior High School ; Jewish neighborhoods ; Keneseth Israel ; Meadowview Estates ; Orthodox ; Race relations ; Sam Meyers ; Seneca High School ; Shabbat ; Wagner High School African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; Education ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Race relations--United States 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 1718 Keneseth Israel Um--(Weinberg coughs)--you said that you went to Keneseth--is it Keneseth Israel? Weinberg talks about growing up in the Orthodox congregation, Keneseth Israel, the synagogue of which he is still a member. He discusses its shift toward Conservative Judaism and recalls a specific incident where women who wanted to have mixed-gender seating were escorted out of the synagogue by police. Congregations ; Conservative ; Dues-paying ; Gabbai ; Kosher ; Mergers ; Orthodox ; Synagogues Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 1953 Family ties to Keneseth Israel What was your family’s connection to the synagogue? Weinberg discusses his family's association with his lifelong synagogue, Keneseth Israel. He specifically details his grandfather's role as gabbai, one who maintains order, and his father's connections as the local kosher butcher. He then talks about his aunt and uncle's laid back involvement, and his maintenance of &quot ; modified kosher.&quot ; Dues-paying ; Gabbai ; Honorarium ; Keneseth Israel ; Kosher ; Orthodox ; Religious practices ; Shofar Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2160 Hebrew school in the 1950s Um, what were your experience with religious school and Hebrew school? Weinberg discusses attending Hebrew school at the Jewish Community Center. He mentions that, at the time, Conservative and Orthodox Jewish children attended to learn Hebrew and then take bar mitzvah lessons when they turned 12. He talks about his experiences in those lessons, specifically having to record and study them. Bar mitzvahs ; Conservative ; Hebrew schools ; Jewish Community Center ; Jewish religious education ; Orthodox ; Reform Education ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2377 Experience with Jewish clubs in the Louisville community Share any stories that stand out in your memory during the years that you were growing up Jewish in Louisville. Weinberg discusses his involvement in Jewish youth clubs growing up, including national affiliations and sports competitions. He talks about his role as president of the Club Council and friendly competition with former Louisville Mayor and Kentucky Lieutenant Governor Jerry Abramson, who served as president of the Teenage Board. Club Council Board ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish clubs ; Teenage Board Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.conservativejudaism.org/articlenav.php?id=21 Federation of Jewish Men's Clubs 2654 Exploring the Weinberg family tree In doing some research, I noticed that there have been and still are a lot of Weinbergs in Louisville. So how were you or are you related to other Jewish families in Louisville? Or in Kentucky, for that matter? Weinberg reveals that he is not, in fact, related to many Weinbergs in the Louisville area. He explores both maternal and paternal sides of his family, eventually tracing his mother's side, the Bermans, back to the 1700s. 1786 ; Ancestors ; Ancestry ; Faye Weinberg ; Great-great-great-grandfathers ; Harris Weinberg ; Harry Berman ; Mendel Weinberg ; Morris Weinberg ; Perry Weinberg ; Yittzhak Leib Berman Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2826 Practicing Judaism What did your family teach you about Judaism, and how has what you learned from them impacted your life? Weinberg identifies himself and his children as traditional Conservative Jews. He discusses his current involvement with his synagogue, Keneseth Israel, as well as his children's Jewish practices. Children ; Connecticut ; Conservative ; Keneseth Israel ; Minyan ; Presidents ; Treasurers Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 3167 Time at the University of Kentucky I know that you attended the University of Kentucky. What years were you there and why did you choose UK? Weinberg talks about his days at the University of Kentucky. He goes into detail about tuition rates, his studies in the business school, his roommate experiences, participation in the Air Force ROTC, apartment living, and parties. Air Force ROTC ; Apartments ; College of Business and Economics ; Deferments ; Fulton County (Ky.) ; Haggin Hall ; In-state tuition ; Lowry Lane ; Lyndhurst Place ; Parties ; Pinewood Place College environment ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Social conditions ; United States. Air Force. Reserve Officers' Training Corps ; Universities and colleges. ; University of Kentucky 38.033333, -84.5 17 University of Kentucky 3783 Jewish campus involvement Describe your relationship with any Jewish or non-Jewish organizations on UK’s campus at the time. Weinberg discusses his interactions with Jewish organizations at the University of Kentucky. He talks about pledging Zeta Beta Tau, the Jewish fraternity on campus, but he didn't pursue that. He talks about living a Jewish life at UK and his choice to get more involved in Hillel. Anti-Semitism ; Fraternities ; Hillel ; Jewish Fraternity ; Kosher ; Pledge ; Yizkor ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College environment ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; Universities and colleges. ; University of Kentucky 38.033333, -84.5 17 University of Kentucky http://www.hillel.org Hillel International - The Foundation for Jewish Campus Life at Colleges and Universities 4187 Connecting with Jews outside of ZBT and Hillel Describe the--you, you touched on this a little bit, but the climate on campus for Jews becoming members of non-Jewish fraternities, um, that--did everyone, uh, were there more of you and less of the ZBTs? Weinberg talks about his relationships with Jews not involved in the ZBT fraternity and Hillel organization. He notes that several of them lived in neighboring apartments, allowing them to have their own get-togethers with no restrictions. Weinberg goes on to list names of his Jewish friends, as well as their hometowns and/or states. He also discusses some of his efforts to preserve his Judaism while on his own. Arty Salomon ; Ben Bayer ; Bruce Gimmer ; Fraternities ; Friends ; George Schwartzman ; Hettie Miller-Reuben ; Howard Passamaneck ; Howard Rosenberg ; Jay Levine ; Jaye Hinerfeld Bittner ; Jill Essie ; Judy Witzer ; Louis Reuben ; Max Goldsmith ; Melvin Orlansky ; Mickey Franklin ; Mickey Lorch ; Mike Needleman ; Mississippi ; Simone Bloomfield ; Teddy Gordon ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College environment ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Universities and colleges. ; University of Kentucky 38.033333, -84.5 17 University of Kentucky 4498 Post-graduation from U.K. What did you do after you graduated? Weinberg talks about his brief time in the Army Reserves during the summer following his graduation from the University of Kentucky. He also discusses his job as a financial manager for General Electric and his time spent as the owner of a pizza and sub shop in the Oxmoor Mall in Louisville, Kentucky. All American Hero ; Army Reserves ; Basic training ; General Electric (GE) ; Jerry Abramson ; Manager of accounting ; Oxmoor Mall ; Wife Employment--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership ; United States. Army--Reserves 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 4691 Becoming CFO of the Jewish Community Federation of Louisville (JCFL) Uh, during the time that I was, um--while I had the shop, uh, I also had become the chief--CFO of the Jewish Community Federation of Louisville. Weinberg talks about taking on the role of CFO of the &quot ; Metro United Way of the Jewish community,&quot ; the Jewish Community Federation of Louisville. He discusses his responsibilities as CFO, as well as the joy and rewarding feeling he found in giving back to the Jewish community in this way. Weinberg also mentions different organizations that received funding from the JCFL while he was CFO, such as the Jewish Community Center and Council of Jewish Women. Adolph Rupp ; Campaigns ; Chief financial officer (CFO) ; Council of Jewish Women ; Donors ; Hebrew schools ; Jewish Community Center ; Jewish Community Federation of Louisville ; Jewish Family and Vocational Service ; John Calipari ; Nonprofit organizations ; University of Kentucky Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) https://jewishlouisville.org/federation/ Jewish Community Federation of Louisville 5071 Louisville Jewish communal institutions Um, clearly you’ve worked with, um, lots of the Jewish community for many years, I guess in your divvying out the money. Um, what relationship did, um--if any--did the Federation have with the Jewish Hospital? Weinberg talks about the Jewish Community Federation of Louisville's close ties with Jewish Hospital, as well as the ways in which the hospital cared for the JCFL's and other Jewish community agencies' employees. He also talks about the dwindling association of Louisville's Jews with area synagogues. He blames Jefferson County Public School System's busing plans for decreases in youth involvement in local Jewish organizations and general volunteerism decline in the &quot ; Me-generation.&quot ; &quot ; Me generation&quot ; ; Children ; Insurance ; Jefferson County Public Schools ; Jewish Community Center ; Jewish Community Federation of Louisville ; Jewish hospitals ; Neighborhoods ; Parents ; Synagogues Education ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.kentuckyonehealth.org/jewish-hospital 5565 Highlights of working at the Jewish Community Federation of Louisville What are your most memorable, um, thoughts about your work at the Federation? Weinberg discusses his more recent years with the JCFL, specifically being in office during the 2008 merger of the JCFL with the Jewish Community Center to form the Jewish Community of Louisville. Allocations ; Chief financial officer (CFO) ; Differing views ; Finances ; Hebrew school ; Jewish Community Center ; Jewish Community Federation of Louisville ; Jewish Community of Louisville ; Mergers ; Synagogues ; Vice presidents Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) https://jewishlouisville.org/federation/ Jewish Community Federation of Louisville 5988 Jewish leadership in Louisville You’ve mentioned Jerry Abramson, um, several times, um, as your friend, but, um, as a mayor, what do you--how do you feel that his being Jewish and being the mayor of Louisville has, um--if at any, what has it been--what impact has it had on the Jewish community or Louisville at large? Weinberg talks about how despite lower numbers of active Jews in Louisville in recent years, the Jewish leadership is still very strong. He lists Louisville's &quot ; Mayor for Life&quot ; Jerry Abramson ; House Representative John Yarmouth ; and the Jewish Hospital as major examples of Jewish leadership in Louisville. Weinberg also discusses the history of the Jewish Community Center and its roots in the Young Men's Hebrew Association. Dutchmans Lane ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish Hospital ; Jewish leadership ; John Yarmouth ; Young Men's Hebrew Association (YMHA) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://mayorforlife.tripod.com/biography.html Jerry Abramson: Biography 6165 Judaism as a child versus as a parent David, what, what was Judaism like--um, we’ve talked about you growing up and your work and what about, um, Judaism in your home as a parent? Um, how was it--how did--did it differ from you growing up? Weinberg talks about raising his children in a strong Jewish faith and his current practices with his children and grandchildren. He compares his Jewish experiences, specifically his bar mitzvah, to his children's, wishing they would've had ones similar to his. Anti-Semitism ; Bar mitzvahs ; Conservative ; Fathers ; Grandparents ; Jewish clubs ; Judaism ; Kentucky Hotel ; Kiddush ; Motzi ; Orthodox ; Presidents ; Sam Meyers ; Shabbat Childhood ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 6592 Jewish identity What has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your activities and as your identity as a Jew? Weinberg reflects on his ties to Israel and his respect for those more Orthodox than he, though he expresses he wouldn't change much about the way he practices his faith. Federation ; Homeland ; Israel ; Judaism ; March of the Living ; Orthodox ; Zionism Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 17 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/a-definition-of-zionism A Definition of Zionism interview In this interview, David Weinberg reflects on his involvement in Judaism and the Jewish community throughout his childhood, college years, and adult life. He begins by delving into his family’s background, explaining how his grandparents came to Kentucky and settled in Louisville, where he still lives today. He talks about his father’s role in the community as a kosher butcher, how that carried over into the home, and about his family’s involvement in their synagogue, Keneseth Israel. David discusses his participation at the Jewish Community Center growing up, from attending Hebrew school there to leading youth clubs and youth councils. As the narrative continues, Weinberg recalls times spent at the University of Kentucky, where he was a business student from 1964 to 1968. He talks about his efforts to keep kosher while living on his own ; his involvement with Hillel, a Jewish campus organization ; and his connections to other Jews living nearby during the time he was at U.K. Weinberg goes on to explain how he met his wife Beverly, his career with General Electric, and how he came to be the CFO of the Jewish Community Federation of Louisville (now the Jewish Community of Louisville). As the interview closes, interviewer Janice Crane asks Weinberg to consider his Jewish identity and its impact on his children’s and grandchildren’s faiths. CREW: Action. CRANE: For official purposes, today is November 10th, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane, and I&#039 ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I&#039 ; m honored and delighted to be here today with David Weinberg of Louisville, Kentucky. I met David many years ago when he attended the University of Kentucky, and I consider him my friend. Although we have not stayed in close contact, we&#039 ; ve managed to--to stay somewhat connected over the years with the help of a few family members and some mutual friends. I look forward to hearing David&#039 ; s stories from his time at UK [University of Kentucky], his memories and experiences growing up in--Jewish, in Louisville, and his work and his family life, raising children in the same town where he grew up. So let&#039 ; s begin with some general information. What was your full name at birth, since it wasn&#039 ; t David? WEINBERG: Uh, see, I surprised you, didn&#039 ; t I? CRANE: That&#039 ; s right. WEINBERG: It&#039 ; s Norman David Weinberg. CRANE: Okay. For the rest of this--(Weinberg laughs)--um, interview, I&#039 ; m gonna have to still call you David, &#039 ; cause that&#039 ; s what I know you as. WEINBERG: My friends call me David. (Crane laughs) When I hear &quot ; Norman,&quot ; I know it&#039 ; s a legal issue. (both laugh) CRANE: A-ha. Okay. When and where were you born? WEINBERG: Uh, I was born in Louisville, Kentucky, March 16th, 1946, at Jewish Hospital. CRANE: I know that both of your parents have passed away, but for the record and because they are part of your story, what were their names, and about when and where were they born? WEINBERG: Uh, Saul Weinberg, and, uh, he, uh, was born in Warsaw, Poland. Uh, he was born in 1907. Uh, and my mother, uh, was born in Kentucky. Esther Libby Berman. And she, uh, was born in 1915. CRANE: And was she born in Louisville? WEINBERG: In Louisville. CRANE: Okay. And what about your grandparents? Where were they born? WEINBERG: Uh, my grandfather, uh--well, my grandfather and my grandmother, uh, on the Weinberg side were born in Warsaw, uh, Poland. Uh, and my grandfather--I&#039 ; m not sure where my grandmother Berman was born, but my grandfather Berman was born, uh, in Russia. And I&#039 ; m not exactly sure where. Somewhere in the Lithuania type area. CRANE: Uh, did your parents and your grandparents names change when they came to America? WEINBERG: Uh, it did. Uh, my, uh--the Weinberg side was, uh--last name was Blizniak. Uh, and my grandfather actually--or my dad tra--traveled to this country as Isaac Blizniak. Uh, but their na--and, and my grandfather on the Berman side, uh, was Kirsch. Uh, I&#039 ; m not sure how we get from Blizniak to Weinberg or Berman to Kirsch, but, but we did. Uh, and my grandmother, Bessie, uh, Price, uh, hers was something like &quot ; Paraplydgik&quot ; or &quot ; Paraplodgik&quot ; or somethin&#039 ; like that. CRANE: Okay. Do you want to spell--(Weinberg laughs)--any of those? (laughs) WEINBERG: I will get to--if you need me to spell it, I will get it-- CRANE: --yes-- WEINBERG: --for you-- CRANE: --spell the-- WEINBERG: --at some point. CRANE: --Blizniak first. WEINBERG: B-l-i-z-n-i-a-k. Blizniak. CRANE: Okay. And what was the-- WEINBERG: Kirsch? CRANE: Uh-hm. WEINBERG: Uh, was my grandfather-- CRANE: --and that&#039 ; s-- WEINBERG: --and my grandmother&#039 ; s maiden name was Karpik. CRANE: And can you spell that? WEINBERG: K-a-r-p-i-k. CRANE: And how do you spell Kirsch? WEINBERG: K-i-r-s-c-h. CRANE: Okay. Um, I know you are married, so for the record, um, what is your wife&#039 ; s full name, and where is she from? WEINBERG: Uh, she&#039 ; s from Louisville also. Her name is Beverly Eileen Bass Weinberg, and she&#039 ; ll be mad that I used the Eileen. (both laugh) CRANE: And, um, what is your sister&#039 ; s full name, and what is her age relative to yours? WEINBERG: Uh, she-- CRANE: --and I know her name&#039 ; s not the name I think of it either--(both laugh) WEINBERG: Uh, again, she goes by her middle name, Gail. Uh, her, uh, birth name is, uh, Rita Gail, um, Weinberg, Levy. She&#039 ; s now a Levy, married to Phillip R. Levy. Uh, and this is my older sister, but she&#039 ; ll be glad to hear on tape also, uh, she was born in, uh, 1940, December of &#039 ; 40, so she&#039 ; s a little over five years older than I am. CRANE: Okay. And she also lives in Louisville. WEINBERG: She also lives in Louisville. CRANE: I know that you have two children, so what are their names, and the ages of your children? WEINBERG: Scott Allen Weinberg, and he does go by Scott, his first name. Uh, he is now forty-one. Uh, and my daughter&#039 ; s name is, uh, Lindsey Paige Weinberg Rossen, uh, and she&#039 ; s thirty-six. CRANE: And will you spell her last name? WEINBERG: R-o-s-s-e-n. CRANE: Okay. And how &#039 ; bout-- WEINBERG: --she--she-- CRANE: --your grandchildren? WEINBERG: --she lives in, uh, Connecticut-- CRANE: --okay-- WEINBERG: --Weston, Connecticut. CRANE: And your five grandchildren, what are their names--(Weinberg laughs)--and ages? WEINBERG: Uh, my five grandchildren are Mary Anne--(pause) (laughs)--we always call her, uh, um--can we go back a minute, or not? (laughs) We call her Anne Miriam. CRANE: Okay. WEINBERG: Uh, we call her Amma, uh, a lot. So-- CRANE: --Emma?-- WEINBERG: --Amma. A-m-m-a, instead of Anne Miriam. So that&#039 ; s why it confuses me a little bit. I don&#039 ; t usually call everybody by their legal-- CRANE: --real names-- WEINBERG: --names. CRANE: Okay. WEINBERG: Uh, Anne Miriam. She is eight, soon to be nine. Uh, Eloise Lily Weinberg, uh-- CRANE: --that&#039 ; s pretty-- WEINBERG: --she is, uh, six, and, uh, the youngest one of the Weinberg side of Scott&#039 ; s family, uh, is Beat--is Jane Beatrice, uh, Weinberg, and she is four. CRANE: And you-- WEINBERG: --five-- (laughs) CRANE: --and on-- WEINBERG: --four. Four-- CRANE: --Lindsey&#039 ; s side? WEINBERG: Uh, on Lindsey&#039 ; s side, uh, is Sophie Gabrielle Rossen. Uh, she&#039 ; s seven. And then we got the only boy, and the last of the--uh, only boy of the family. And he&#039 ; s the youngest. And that&#039 ; s Ethan Benjamin Rossen. CRANE: Oh, cute. How did your family come to settle in Kentucky, or more specifically Louisville, Kentucky? WEINBERG: Well, my, uh--my grandfather&#039 ; s brother--one of his brothers, Abe, was the oldest one--uh, Abe came, um, before anybody else out of Warsaw. Uh, he was up in Indiana for a while, uh, and then came to Louisville. And he was in essence the sponsor of my dad, uh, coming over--or my grandfather coming over, and then my dad. My grandfather came without the family, initially. Uh, he came, uh, in 19, uh, 21, and left everybody else in Warsaw. (laughs) Uh, my father, who was the oldest of the children, came two years later, uh, in 19, uh, 20, uh, 3, and the rest of the family didn&#039 ; t come until the next year, 1924. And that was four additional, uh, siblings and my grandmother. CRANE: Why did they come here? WEINBERG: Why did they come to the United States or why did they come to Louisville? CRANE: No, why did they come to Kentucky? Or Louisville? WEINBERG: Well, again, my, uh, my grandfather&#039 ; d come first because he was sponsored by his older brother who came here and, uh, found him a, a place to work. And then, uh, then the rest followed. CRANE: And do you know-- WEINBERG: --my dad came by himself from Warsaw at age sixteen-- CRANE: Oh. What were their occupations of your parents? WEINBERG: Uh, my parents--my dad was a, a, uh, kosher butcher, uh, in town. And my mother was a, uh, um, a housewife who helped in the store quite a bit. Um, but, uh, before he started--before he opened his kosher butcher, he actually worked for Clare Meat, uh, Products, which was not a kosher shop. Uh, but it was with Clare, and then he, uh, opened his own. Uh, and he opened it with, uh, as a partnership with my uncle by marriage, uh, my mother&#039 ; s sister&#039 ; s husband, Abe Hoffman. Uh, they opened as partners. And that didn&#039 ; t last too long, for whatever reason. Uh, probably because it&#039 ; s not a good idea to go into business with friends or relatives. But, uh, he then opened his own kosher meat market, uh, much further east, where the Jewish population was moving. My dad&#039 ; s meat market was right in the middle of what I would call the shtetl, on Preston Street, uh, because just about every store along Preston, uh, was a, was a Jewish market of some sort or another. CRANE: Do you remember Preston Street when your dad had a butcher-- WEINBERG: --uh, I do-- CRANE: --shop? WEINBERG: I do. CRANE: What was it like? WEINBERG: What was the butcher shop like, or what was Preston like? CRANE: Both. WEINBERG: Uh, well, the-- CRANE: --what do you remember about it?-- WEINBERG: (laughs) Uh, don&#039 ; t forget, my--my dad died when I was thirteen. Uh, so I, uh, I only have some memories between probably five and thirteen. Uh, but it--it was, uh, pe--a lot of people talking Yiddish or Hebrew down the street. Uh, the butcher shop itself, uh, my dad would go in, a lot of times at four o&#039 ; clock in the morning, uh, get orders together that--for delivery that day, uh, and then come home for breakfast and have breakfast with us and then go back to the shop. Um, but--I mean, there was every merchant along Preston, uh, there were delis, there were, uh, shoe shops, there were five-and-ten stores, there were, uh, the shochet, who actually kosher slaughtered the chickens on Preston for you while you were in the shop. Um, it was, uh--it was all right there. Bakeries. Um, Melita&#039 ; s Bakery. Um, New York--uh, the New York Delicatessen, which was owned by Sh-- uh, Mike Sherman. Uh, there were actually a couple of other butcher shops around that time. Schramm&#039 ; s (??). Uh, Fuchs&#039 ; s (??) had maybe had just closed. Um, and there were a few--uh, there were a few others, uh, you know, Wittenbaum&#039 ; s, uh, was right along there. Golde&#039 ; s Shoes. Um-- CRANE: I know that I grew up knowing that all the shoe str--shoe shops in Louisville were on Preston Street for some reason. WEINBERG: They--(Crane laughs)--they were on Preston Street. I--I probably got another listing here of a number of &#039 ; em, uh, that were on, uh--yeah. Wittenbaum Shoes. Schlossberg&#039 ; s. Uh, Golde&#039 ; s. Strasberg&#039 ; s. Goldy&#039 ; s. Pozitzer&#039 ; s. All Jewish-owned shoe stores along Preston Street. UNKNOWN: What section of Preston Street was that? WEINBERG: Uh, generally between, uh, Market or Jefferson and Broadway. Maybe a block before Broadway, uh, north of Broadway. CRANE: Did you ever witness the slaughtering of one of those chickens? WEINBERG: I did. (laughs) CRANE: Will you just sort of share your feeling--(Weinberg laughs)--about it, or--(laughs)--what you remember? WEINBERG: I&#039 ; ll tell you some--I, I, I never saw the slaughter of a, of a cow, which is also ritually slaughtered for Jewish, uh, kosher butchers. Uh, but my--I can remember going down to the stock yards with my dad, where he would pick out the cow that was gonna be slaughtered, and it would be taken over to, uh, um--gosh, what was the name of that? Um, Dawson-Spatz, uh, slaughterhouse, which was just down the street, and then they would ritually slaughter that cow for, uh, kosher, uh, butcher. Uh, the chickens, I can remember going down--it was a little shop. It was--I thought it was pretty dirty-lookin&#039 ; . Uh, and it was a little scary at the time. They would just--you know, just cut that head off, and, uh, then there was your chicken. (laughs) CRANE: Where did the meat--um, you mentioned that the meat came from, um, that slaughterhouse or, you know, that--where you picked out the cows. Um, where did the chickens come from? WEINBERG: I only knew that they were on Preston Street. I mean, they were live on Preston Street in the back of that, uh, sh--uh--you know, the shochet&#039 ; s, um, house. CRANE: You mean the chickens were. WEINBERG: The chickens were, yeah. CRANE: Whoa. Okay. WEINBERG: Yeah, you could go in and pick out your chicken, they&#039 ; d slaughter it right there for you. Take home your chicken, fresh. (laughs) CRANE: Did they pluck the little feathers out, or-- WEINBERG: Uh, they could, or you could do it yourself. (laughs) CRANE: Uh, what happened to the business after your father passed away? WEINBERG: Uh, when my father passed away, uh, there was somebody in there named Sam, uh, Shiffman (??), uh, who, I guess, bought it. Uh, he opened it for--kept it open for a while, and then that shop moved, uh, actually out on to the Bardstown Road area, which, again, was shifting towards where the Jewish community was moving. Uh, Hy Spickel (??) had a place out there, uh, with Shiffman, for a while. Um, Abe Hoffman, who had been my, uh, my uncle, my dad&#039 ; s brother-in-law, had a--that place called Abe--Abe&#039 ; s Meat--Abe&#039 ; s Kosher Meats. Uh, so those were all along Bardstown Road--Taylorsville Road, at that time. CRANE: Is that where Butchertown is? WEINBERG: No. (laughs) CRANE: It doesn&#039 ; t have anything to do-- WEINBERG: --no-- CRANE: --with Butcher-- WEINBERG: --not even close-- CRANE: Okay. (Weinberg laughs) Um, did your family keep kosher? WEINBERG: Yes. Uh, my grandparents kept kosher. My, uh, my mom and dad kept kosher. Uh, I mean, we kept kosher in the home. Kept kosher outside the home, while my parents were alive. When my parents passed away, uh, we moved in with, uh, an aunt, my dad&#039 ; s sister, and her husband. Uh, Jack Goldberg and Miriam Goldberg. Uh, they weren&#039 ; t quite as religious. Uh, they did keep a kosher home, but not outside the home so much. Um, but yeah. We kept, we kept kosher. CRANE: How old was--how old were you when your mother passed away? WEINBERG: Ten. CRANE: Oh, wow. So she passed away before your dad. WEINBERG: She had passed away three years before my dad. CRANE: That must&#039 ; ve been tough. Um, how easy is it to keep kosher in Louisville, now? WEINBERG: Today or then? (laughs) CRANE: Either one. WEINBERG: It&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s not as easy as it was, uh, when you had several kosher butcher shops, and you had sever--you know, a few restaurants that were kosher restaurants. You don&#039 ; t have any kosher restaurants today. Uh, you can buy kosher meat at Kroger&#039 ; s if you go to the Kroger on Hikes Lane. They have a fresh kosher meat section. Uh, so if you want to buy kosher meat, you can. Uh, the selection is not great, and they don&#039 ; t necessarily cut it, uh, to your specifications. If you want to, uh--you know, a lot of times we will bring meat in from Chicago. I have a niece up there. Uh, so if we&#039 ; re visiting there or she&#039 ; s coming here, she&#039 ; ll bring us meat occasionally. Uh, Cincinnati has kosher meat market that we can get kosher meat from. You can get it from St. Louis, you can get it from, uh, Atlanta. But, uh-- CRANE: You said there were kosher restaurants when you were growin&#039 ; up? WEINBERG: Uh, there were. Uh, and if they weren&#039 ; t kosher, they were kosher-style. But, uh, uh, there were a couple of kosher restaurants. Um--(sighs)--trying to think of the name of those, uh--(pause) (sighs)--Charlie Simon, I think, kept a, uh, kosher, uh, delicatessen. Um, there was, uh, Sherman&#039 ; s, which was kosher-style. Had kosher meat, they didn&#039 ; t keep a kosher, uh, restaurant particularly. Around the Clock, uh, was on Bardstown Road, uh, and would keep kosher-style, uh, with some kosher meat, but not totally a kosher restaurant. Um, guy named Kaplan owned that, uh, um, Around the Clock. Um-- CRANE: You know, David, when I was doing some of the research for this interview, I kept coming across the phrase &quot ; Vaad Hakashruth&quot ; ? WEINBERG: Corre--all right. CRANE: Um, and I know it has something to do with keeping kosher in Louisville. Um, but what can you tell me about this? (both laugh) WEINBERG: Well, the Vaad is, uh, one that supervises and would give a--a Orthodox union approval of, of the kosher meat. Uh, to do that they would come in periodically just to make sure that you were keeping all the laws of kashrut. Uh, and they would give it their approval, and they&#039 ; d get paid for that. (laughs) Uh, so, uh, in every, every piece of meat you bought, uh, you were paying the co--uh, the Vaad as well. CRANE: So is this a--a person, a project, a program? It-- WEINBERG: Uh, it&#039 ; s a person. It&#039 ; s a group. Uh, the Vaad has got a--its own board here, today, uh, that will approve or not approve of various products in town. Uh, it&#039 ; s, uh, com--composed of those of the Orthodox--and some Conservative, I think, are on there as well. CRANE: Hmm. Uh, when you were growin&#039 ; up, where did you go to school? WEINBERG: Well, I went to Belknap Elementary. Uh, you know, our neighborhoods back then were much different than they are today. We were--when we went to school, we went to school in public schools with our, uh, friends and neighbors, and we, a lot of the Jewish community lived together in the same neighborhoods. I lived on Village Drive. Uh, Village Drive was like a little ghetto, you know. Uh, it had one Jewish home, if no--if, if it wasn&#039 ; t Jewish, it was Catholic, but, um, uh, it was a very Jewish neighborhood. So we went to Belknap, uh, Elementary. Then I went to Seneca High. Uh, actually, I went to Highland Junior High for a year in, before my dad died, and then, uh--then I went to Seneca High. CRANE: I&#039 ; m assuming that, that once your parents passed away you moved to a different location? WEINBERG: Moved to a different location, in Meadowview Estates with my, uh, Aunt Miriam Weinberg Goldberg, Jack Goldberg. CRANE: Um-- WEINBERG: --and they had, they had one adopted daughter, Renee-- CRANE: --um, is she still, um, around? WEINBERG: Renee? CRANE: Um-hm. WEINBERG: Renee is around, and she lives in, uh, Florida. CRANE: &#039 ; Cause she, I guess, sort of became your sister, of sorts. WEINBERG: Uh, yeah. Very much so. CRANE: Um, you said you lived in a Jewish community, but what was the non-Jewish community&#039 ; s reaction to you being Jewish? Or your Jewishness? When you were growing up? WEINBERG: Uh, again, the neighborhood and the schools were very Jewish. Uh, Seneca was very Jewish. Um, Seneca had a big Jewish population. They had a little black population, &#039 ; cause they drew from Newburg. The Jews and the blacks got along very well. Uh, we never had a problem. I--I cannot think of any time when I was growing up that I ran into any anti-Semitism. CRANE: When you say &quot ; very Jewish,&quot ; what do you mean? WEINBERG: I&#039 ; d say, uh, close to a third of the school was Jewish. CRANE: Oh, wow. WEINBERG: Um, you know, we--you were in, uh--you either went to Atherton, which was very Jewish and was in the Highlands, or you went to Seneca. And you might have gone, a few, to Wagner. But you were in basically those three schools. CRANE: How would you describe your parents&#039 ; relationship to Judaism? WEINBERG: Their relationship to Judaism? CRANE: Um-hm. WEINBERG: Very Jewish. Um, again, the--the house was kosher-- [Pause in recording.] WEINBERG: --uh, on Shabbat. Uh-- CRANE: Okay. [Pause in recording.] CRANE: Well, we had a teeny little break here, but, um, let&#039 ; s go back to the question, how would you describe your parents&#039 ; relationship to Judaism? WEINBERG: Uh, well, it--they were Orthodox. Uh, my grandparents were Orthodox ; my fam--my parents were Orthodox. Um, we didn&#039 ; t go out to eat until it was kosher or unless it was, uh, milchig. Uh, we went to Stan&#039 ; s Fish Market, who would, uh, prepare fish, uh, uh, that&#039 ; s probably the only fish place we went, Stan&#039 ; s Fish Market. Uh, we would go to Around the Clock on Bardstown Road. And my dad knew Mr. Kaplan, and he would make sure that whatever was served was okay. (laughs) Uh, we went there for milkshakes a lot, and that was okay. Although my dad --I didn&#039 ; t eat a lot of eggs or protein, so he would have &#039 ; em put a raw egg in my milkshake so that I would get this protein from the, from the egg. (laughs) CRANE: Did you know it was in there? WEINBERG: Yeah, I knew. But it, the milkshake was okay. (laughs) CRANE: Enough chocolate changes anything. WEINBERG: That&#039 ; s right. CRANE: Um, so what about the, um, holidays? What was Shabbat like? What were--how did you celebrate holidays? WEINBERG: Well, on Shabbat--again, we were in--by the time I was three years old, we were in the East End, on Village Drive. Uh, so we didn&#039 ; t go to Keneseth downtown unless it was a special day, a special holiday. On Shabbat, uh, Four Courts was close by. It was the, uh, home they built for Jewish elderly. And they had a chapel there. And they would go, uh--a number of the Jewish community in that area would go there and be lay-led, basically. But they were all--they were all--knew what they were doing. (laughs) They could all daven. They could all lain Torah. Uh, so that wasn&#039 ; t an issue. Um, and that&#039 ; s where we would walk to. And we had a little dog that would follow us over there. And she would stay at that door for the four hours. I mean, services started at eight o&#039 ; clock in the morning ; they didn&#039 ; t end till twelve o&#039 ; clock. And that dog would sit at--(laughs)--that doorstep until we came out. Um--(clears throat)--and so that&#039 ; s what we did on Shabbat. And then we went home, and he--we didn&#039 ; t watch, uh, television. I might have gone out--(Crane sneezes)--and played, uh, but we didn&#039 ; t do, uh--you know, we didn&#039 ; t watch television or work. Uh, on special occasions, and especially the holidays--(clears throat)--were very special. Uh, we would go to my da--my grandparents lived a block away from the synagogue, and the whole family would just land there. Uh, and when I say the whole family, there were five siblings and all their children. Uh, there were, uh, ten, ten grandchildren of his. So everybody was there in this little--what I thought at the time was a big house, but I went back to see it not too terribly long ago, and it was pretty small. I don&#039 ; t know how we all got in there, and certainly I don&#039 ; t know how everybody slept in there. Uh, but they all did, except for us. (laughs) Because my dad was the oldest child, we stayed at the hotel on, uh, generally the Henry Clay that was on Third Street, not too many blocks away. And we would stay there. But the rest of the family would stay at, uh, my grandparents&#039 ; house. And that&#039 ; s where you would--then you would go to shul and you would come back there, and you would have your, uh, your meals and, uh, and all. So it was a--it was a very close family--(laughs)--very close, at times. Uh, my grandfather&#039 ; s house, I, I mean, probably had--haven&#039 ; t gotten into--my, my grandmother was blind, uh, from the time-- CRANE: --on your father&#039 ; s side?-- WEINBERG: On my father&#039 ; s side. She was probably a four-foot little old lady, uh, who was totally blind. Uh, she was blind, uh, several years before I was born, so I never knew her to ha--be sighted. Um--(clears throat)--but she, um--she could do anything. I mean, she was so remarkable. She--you know, she might--she was cooking, and she&#039 ; d say, &quot ; Would you get me three cubes of sugar out of the pantry?&quot ; , and I&#039 ; d say, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t find it,&quot ; and she&#039 ; d say, &quot ; Oh, it&#039 ; s on the third shelf in the back on the left-hand side.&quot ; And there it would be. So, I mean, it was not a problem. She would walk herself over to the synagogue, uh, you know, with a walking stick. And, um, there was just nothing this little lady couldn&#039 ; t do. Uh-- CRANE: And what was her name? WEINBERG: Sarah. CRANE: Weinberg. WEINBERG: Weinberg. CRANE: And is this the house you told me a story about Sam Meyers? Is this the same house? WEINBERG: It is the same house. Sam Meyers, who many people may know of, is the Sam Meyers tuxedos and clothing chain, uh, that he started. Uh, I didn&#039 ; t find out until just la--within the last year. We were talking about Passover in an email with some relatives, and, um, they sent a picture of the, the family that got together. And so somebody said, &quot ; Well, who&#039 ; s the old man that&#039 ; s in the picture?&quot ; And I can remember the old man who lived at this house in a room in the house. And--just knew him as Mr. Meyers, the old man Meyers. Um, only to find out that this really wasn&#039 ; t my grandfather&#039 ; s house. (laughs) This was Mr. Meyers&#039 ; s house! (laughs) And they had an agreement in his old, you know, in his elderly years, that my grandparents would take care of him, and--till he passed on, and then the house would be theirs. And I don&#039 ; t think any--I didn&#039 ; t--I certainly didn&#039 ; t know that until just recently. CRANE: Wow. (Weinberg clears throat) Great story. Um--(Weinberg coughs)--you said that you went to Keneseth--is it Keneseth Israel? WEINBERG: Keneseth Israel. CRANE: As a child? WEINBERG: Um-hm. CRANE: Um, what can you share about, um, that congregation-- WEINBERG: --uh-- CRANE: --growing up as a child? WEINBERG: Uh, well, as a child it was a very Orthodox congregation. And, um--I just want to find out some dates here. Um, it, uh--it was an Orthodox congregation. Uh, it was actually the merger of two congregations, Agudath Achim and, um, Kol--uh, I, I&#039 ; ve got it, I&#039 ; ve got it here somewhere, I just have to look it up for you real quick. Uh, it was the merger of two Orthodox congregations. And, uh, it was Orthodox. Women sat in the balcony over the, uh, over the main sanctuary, uh, &#039 ; cause men and women didn&#039 ; t sit together. Uh, and in 1951, uh, the women decided they didn&#039 ; t like that arrangement so much. (laughs) So there was a sit-in. And they all just came down from the balcony and decided they were gonna sit in the main chapel. And that didn&#039 ; t go over so well with a lot of the Orthodox men, and, um, and they actually ended up calling the police--(laughs)--to have &#039 ; em all removed. (laughs) And, uh, but that was the beginning of the mixed congregation. Uh, they ultimately came to a compromise, and they said, &quot ; Okay, you can sit downstairs. The women will sit on the right-hand, uh, section of the, of the synagogue. The Orthodox men who want to be separate will sit on the left-hand side. And those who want to sit together, you will sit in the middle section.&quot ; And so that&#039 ; s sort of like the mechitza or the--if you wanted to sit on separate seating, you did. Um-- CRANE: So who called the police? The men? WEINBERG: Beth, Beth, Beth Hamedrash Ha--Hagadol, uh, was the name of the other synagogue that merged to, to form Keneseth. That happened in 1929. CRANE: Okay. So there were two Orthodox synagogues that joined for-- WEINBERG: --right-- CRANE: --Keneseth, right? WEINBERG: Right. And I, and I got that wrong. That is B&#039 ; nai Jacob and Beth Hamedrash Hagadol. CRANE: Okay. Became Keneseth Israel. WEINBERG: Became Keneseth Israel. CRANE: Okay. And you said the--did the men call the police? WEINBERG: The men called the police. CRANE: And they came. WEINBERG: And they came, and they--(laughs)--removed &#039 ; em. CRANE: Okay. Just wanted to make sure I understood that. WEINBERG: Yeah. You got it right. CRANE: Uh-- WEINBERG: So that was the beginning, really, of Keneseth going from an Orthodox synagogue to what is today, uh, actually a Conservative synagogue. And that didn&#039 ; t happen overnight either. That, uh, in about 1990, uh, it became an egalitarian type of synagogue, where women could participate. Women really couldn&#039 ; t participate in the service, uh, until 1990. Um, and when I say &quot ; participate,&quot ; they could certainly be in the congregation and pray, but they couldn&#039 ; t lead the service. Because, again, in the Orthodox congregations, men and women were separate. Uh, and you had separate roles, really. Um, but that started to evaporate, and in, uh, 1994, uh, we became a Conservative synagogue. And that, uh--that was a, you know, a battle. I mean, a lot of people left because it had become egalitarian and/or Conservative. And, um--and others remained. And now it&#039 ; s a, a pretty good--you know, one of the two Conservative congregations in town. CRANE: What was your family&#039 ; s connection to the synagogue? WEINBERG: Close. I mean, my grandfather was a gabbai. I don&#039 ; t know if you know what a gabbai is. CRANE: I do. WEINBERG: A gabbai is in charge of--(laughs)--of, of maintaining order. (laughs) So I&#039 ; m not sure, maybe he&#039 ; s the one who called the police to get the women out, but, uh, uh, maintains order, gives the, uh, honors out. Uh, and he did that for a long time. Uh, you know, when they, when they blow the shofar on the holidays, uh, he would be the one to, to call out the, uh, shofar, &quot ; Tekiah.&quot ; Uh, and I can still hear that today when somebody does that. Um, and my dad, again, was a--was involved. He actually belonged to all the congregations, because he was the kosher butcher. (laughs) Um, so he had an affiliation with all of &#039 ; em. But we were Keneseth members. CRANE: A due-paying affiliation or an honorarium? WEINBERG: No, the--a dues-paying, but affiliate, uh, co--uh, as a, um--not as a full-paying member--(laughs)--I don&#039 ; t think. CRANE: Wow. What was the differ--or how did your life change as far as being Jewish, um, and your religious practices change from your younger years, with your parents being more Orthodox, then your aunt and uncle being less-- WEINBERG: --yeah-- CRANE: --Orthodox? WEINBERG: --well, they--again, they kept a kosher home at my aunt and uncle&#039 ; s. Uh, we would go out to eat. And I was beginning to go out to eat at that point, although I maintained a modified kosher, I call it. Uh, maybe it&#039 ; s my own kosher. Uh, where I would eat meat out, but I wouldn&#039 ; t mix milk and meat, and I wouldn&#039 ; t eat, uh, you know, shellfish, seafood, uh, type things that were forbidden. Um, but I would eat out. Uh, and I still do that. Uh, but I still don&#039 ; t mix milk and meat, and I still don&#039 ; t eat certain fish. So, um, not much has changed since then. I actually maintained doing that while I was at the university. Uh, probably a lot of people don&#039 ; t remember, there, on Rose Street, there was a huge walk-in freezer where you could rent, uh, drawers or lockers, uh, and I would store meat there. Uh, and then periodically I&#039 ; d go down, and you walk into this lo--you wear this big, uh, Alaskan coat that they had hanging on a hook. You walk into this walk-in freezer, used your key to open up the locker, and take your meat out or put meat in. And I would keep that and take it home, uh, to the apartments that I lived in and maintained, uh, eating kosher there. CRANE: Where was this? WEINBERG: On Rose. It was near where the, uh--(clears throat)--near where the hospital is now. Um, there was a motel on that side of the street. Um, I don&#039 ; t-- CRANE: --and a football field-- WEINBERG: I don&#039 ; t remember the football field. Um, but there was a motel and there was a big--big freezer walk-in area that you could rent lockers. CRANE: Hmm. Um, what were your experience with religious school and Hebrew school? WEINBERG: Well, you know, everything--if you weren&#039 ; t in school and if you weren&#039 ; t playing in the yard, you were at the Jewish Community Center. Uh, it became a big part of everybody&#039 ; s life from the time you were playing Little League until you got out of high school and, and after. But, uh, the Hebrew school, there was a community Hebrew school by the time I was going to Hebrew school. At one time they--each congregation had their own Hebrew, uh, program. And, uh, then they had a cheder that, downtown, that was a, more than one synagogue. And all--when the center got built in the 1950s, uh, the Hebrew school--the community Hebrew school went down to the Jewish Community Center. Which was closer to where I lived. Um--(clears throat)--so that&#039 ; s where we had Hebrew. And after school either, uh, generally, at that time, a taxi would pick you up at Belknap School and take you to the center, and maybe if you were lucky you could stop and get something to eat along the way. The taxi driver would stop for you and you could get a little somethin&#039 ; . Uh, and then we&#039 ; d go to Hebrew at the center on, uh, I think it was Monday and Wednesdays, uh, after school. CRANE: There were Reformed, Conservative, and still Orthodox congregations while you were growing up. I&#039 ; m assuming that the, the skill level for--or the requirements for a bar or bat mitzvah, uh, were different from--in the different congregations. But did they--were they all the same because they all went to the community center? WEINBERG: Well, the Reform weren&#039 ; t having bar or bat mitzvahs at that time. Um-- CRANE: --oh, okay-- WEINBERG: --if they did, it wasn&#039 ; t much. Uh, the Conservative and the Orthodox, uh, learned their Hebrew there. And you took your bar mitzvah lessons when you were maybe 12 or thereabouts. Uh, you would take your bar mitzvah lessons, uh, from the cantor at the synagogue. And I can remember--(laughs)--on Village Drive there was a bus line, and I would carry a Webcor tape recorder. It was a reel-to-reel recorder that probably weighed as much as I did. It was a good forty or fifty pounds, I think. And I would lug that on a transit line to downtown and walk a block over to the synagogue, carrying--(laughs)--that tape recorder. And that&#039 ; s how I learned my bar mitzvah from Cantor Elias. And if you couldn&#039 ; t afford one of those Webcor tape recorders, uh, you, um, he would make--he would, he would, uh, record a record for you that you could study from. One of those big, uh--I forgot what they called &#039 ; em now. Say, uh, thirty-two--what is it, thirty-two or thirty-three speed, uh, records? They were this, they were this big. CRANE: The big thick one. Yeah. WEINBERG: Uh, and that&#039 ; s how you learned your bar mitzvah. And then you&#039 ; d go in, the cantor would--you know, you&#039 ; d try to do what you were supposed to do, and he&#039 ; d say, &quot ; No, you&#039 ; re not doing it right, and you&#039 ; re not gonna be bar mitzvahed.&quot ; But, you know, everybody was. (laughs) CRANE: Share any stories that stand out in your memory during the years that you were growing up Jewish in Louisville. WEINBERG: Well, certainly the Jewish Community Center was the center of everybody&#039 ; s life, like I said. Um, if it wasn&#039 ; t Little League, uh, it was, um, you know, by the time you got into high school there were high school clubs. Uh, they were Jewish clubs. They were probably about thirty, uh, thirty, thirty-five, in each chapter. There were twelve chapters. Uh, six boys chapters and six girls chapters. Uh, of the boys, three of those were AZA [Aleph Zadik Aleph]-affiliated. Um, which is a national, um, affiliation which had regional conventions and national conventions. Uh, some of &#039 ; em were local. Um, Ral AZA was one. Resnick AZA, Mu Sigma. Um, Vincent AZA. Condores. Uh, Mu Sigma--did I say Mu Sigma? Uh, and, uh, the girls had six chapters as well. Uh, Jolson--two of &#039 ; em were BBG [B&#039 ; nai B&#039 ; rith Girls] chapters comparable to the AZA but for the girls. Uh, Jolson and Brandeis BBG. Uh, they had, uh--that was Mu--um, Modern Femmes, GK, Amitié, um-- CRANE: And what took place in all of these-- WEINBERG: --oh-- CRANE: --clubs or organizations or-- WEINBERG: --it was--it was like being part of a fraternity. Uh, you would meet weekly. Uh, you would participate in sports at the center. Uh, you competed against each other. Um, there was always basketball, football, softball, that you, uh--you competed. Um, they were run in a parliamentary fashion, so you learned a little bit about parliamentary procedure. You had your own, uh, treasurer, so you had some bookkeeping, and, you know, you ran for office. I think Jerry Abramson, uh, who became, uh, mayor of Louisville for, uh, years--they call him mayor for life--and, uh, he was mayor. He&#039 ; s been a lieutenant governor, uh, of Kentucky. Uh, he is currently at the White House, in the West Wing, as a liaison between the, uh, Oval Office and municipalities throughout the country. Uh, and he would tell you he got his start there. Um, he, uh--we had two different teen boards. One was called a teenage board and one was called the club council board. The club councils were consisted of representation of the different clubs. The teenage board was supposed to be representative of all teenagers at the center, whether you were part of the club system or not. He was the president of that teenage board when I was president of the club council. And I always used to say, &quot ; Well, you might be president of the teenage board, but club council really has the clout, because three hundred of these kids belong to the club, to, uh, the clubs.&quot ; And there weren&#039 ; t many kids that weren&#039 ; t affiliated with clubs at that time. Uh, so we were over at the center probably just about every day. During the summer, you were there for the pool, the tennis, uh, just to, to be with other kids. Uh, it was the hangout. Um, and, um, so that probably, as a child growing up, that&#039 ; s probably left the biggest impression. Um-- CRANE: How many kids were there? WEINBERG: In clubs? About three hundred-plus, in the clubs. Uh, I don&#039 ; t know how many children there were in that age group, but, uh, there were, you know, maybe--maybe 350, 400. I don&#039 ; t know. It was a big group. CRANE: In your age group? WEINBERG: Yeah. Well, when I say &quot ; age group,&quot ; three years of high school. These were all--the clubs then were tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grade. Um, there were also some junior high clubs you could be in before that, in the eighth and ninth grade. Maybe seventh, eight, and ninth. Uh, now you don&#039 ; t have--uh, the, there&#039 ; s not as many clubs over there today. There may be a couple, uh, and they&#039 ; re the, uh, ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth, uh, to be in the AZA chapters. CRANE: In doing some research, I noticed that there have been and still are a lot of Weinbergs in Louisville. So how were you or are you related to other Jewish families in Louisville? Or in Kentucky, for that matter? WEINBERG: Well, I&#039 ; m not related to a lot of Weinbergs here. Uh, my dad had a brother, Morris Weinberg. Uh, he has, uh--he had, uh, uh, four, four kids. Uh, Mendel, uh, Faye, Perry, and Harris. Um, Harris was a year--Mendel was my age, Harris was a year younger than me, Faye was the next down the line, and Perry was younger than that. Uh, on the Berman side, I&#039 ; m related to a lot of Bermans. Uh-- CRANE: And the Bermans are your mother&#039 ; s-- WEINBERG: My mother&#039 ; s side. CRANE: Okay. WEINBERG: Uh, on my mother&#039 ; s side, uh, again, she had, uh, four other siblings. Uh, they had, uh, seven kids. So I had seven first cousins on the Berman side. Actually I had ten on the Weinberg side. Uh, but the Berman side, if you go down the, uh, the family tree there, I have a cousin who has a family tree history, uh, that goes back to the 1700s, uh, of which he&#039 ; s got about fifteen hundred names on there that are Berman-related, uh, as it spreads out. Uh, my grandfather, Harry Berman, was not the largest segment of that. (laughs) Uh, but there&#039 ; s a lot of, lot of Bermans. They--they used to have family picnics every few years. Now they may have &#039 ; em every five or ten years, uh, but we still have a big family picnic, and you find out people that you never knew were Bermans are Bermans. CRANE: And they go back to the 1700s in Kentucky? WEINBERG: Nah, nah. I didn&#039 ; t say in Kentucky. CRANE: Oh. Okay. WEINBERG: (laughs) Uh, but they went back a long way. Uh, here&#039 ; s, uh--they, they all come from, uh, Yittzhak Leib Berman, from 1786. Uh, and he, and--Yitzhak Leib was my grandfather&#039 ; s great-great grandfather. CRANE: Okay. So your-- WEINBERG: --that&#039 ; s my great-great-great-- CRANE: Yeah. WEINBERG: (laughs) Three greats. CRANE: Gotcha. Okay. Um--(pause)--what did your family teach you about Judaism, and how has what you learned from them impacted your life? WEINBERG: Well, I mean, I, I have followed the tradition of Judaism, uh, as a traditional Conservative. (laughs) Um, certainly not Orthodox, uh, although I still keep a lot of that tradition. Uh, uh, my kids do. My son is currently the president of Keneseth. Uh, my daughter in Connecticut, uh, is very active in their Conservative synagogue. Uh, and their kids are all active. So I think, uh, uh, we&#039 ; ve kept a connection to our, our religion and our tradition. Um, and it&#039 ; s a good feeling. You know, I, I, uh, I try to--I don&#039 ; t get to synagogue as often as I&#039 ; d like or as I should, um--I&#039 ; m there for the holidays, uh, and there whenever there&#039 ; s a yahrzeit or a yizkor. Uh, as a memorial to my parents. Uh, but I try to go once a week in the morning, uh, on a Thursday morning, to help make a minyan, because you need ten--ten Jews--it used to be ten men. Now it can be ten men-slash-women to make a minyan, uh, so that you can say certain prayers as a, a, uh, community service. Uh, and there&#039 ; re certain things you can&#039 ; t do if you don&#039 ; t have that minyan, uh, one of &#039 ; em being saying a Mourner&#039 ; s Kaddish. Uh, so I try to be there for those who, who need ten people. Uh, that&#039 ; s probably a direct result of the fact that I needed ten of--you know, when I was younger. Sometimes you&#039 ; d had &#039 ; em and sometimes you didn&#039 ; t, but I thought it was necessary to try to participate and help make that. CRANE: What&#039 ; s it like having your son Scott as president of your synagogue? WEINBERG: Well, he&#039 ; s president and I&#039 ; m treasurer. And I never would have been treasurer if he wasn&#039 ; t, hadn&#039 ; t been president, but I couldn&#039 ; t turn him down. (Crane laughs) Uh, and, uh--and he always did want to be the boss. (laughs) So, uh, so now he has a chance. Uh, it, it&#039 ; s good. I mean, I&#039 ; m glad that he has that feeling and that desire, uh, to make that commitment to the synagogue. And it is a commitment, &#039 ; cause it&#039 ; s never an ending thing. It&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s always something coming up. CRANE: How big is the congregation? WEINBERG: (sighs) The congregation is probably about 250 member units. Uh, so some of those are married, some of &#039 ; em have kids, some of &#039 ; em are single. Um, it&#039 ; s--I, you know, I--there&#039 ; s probably close to six hundred, seven hundred, maybe, total, including children. CRANE: Before we get into your college and your adult life, is there anything else unique we should know about your family background or your childhood years that you&#039 ; d like to share? WEINBERG: Uh--(pause)--well, I didn&#039 ; t tell you how I met my wife. CRANE: I&#039 ; m--(Weinberg laughs)--I think that&#039 ; s on here, but go ahead and tell me now. WEINBERG: Okay. No, go ahead. CRANE: Nope, let&#039 ; s do that now. How did you-- WEINBERG: --you know-- CRANE: You didn&#039 ; t meet your wife until after you finished college. WEINBERG: Until after I-- CRANE: --so-- WEINBERG: --finished college, that&#039 ; s right. CRANE: --let&#039 ; s go through college and-- WEINBERG: --all right, let&#039 ; s-- CRANE: --then we can do that. WEINBERG: Uh, go back to high school again. I can remember goin&#039 ; --the synagogues were all concentrated downtown when I was growing up. They&#039 ; ve all moved east since then. They used to call &#039 ; em by their name of their street, even though they had a congregational name. Um, and just (??) Adath Jeshurun would be called Brook Street. Uh, Third Street, uh, was Adath Israel. Uh, you know, but they were on Brook. They were on First. They were on Second. They were on Third. And that&#039 ; s the way you knew &#039 ; em. And there was a bowling alley in between us, on Brook Street. Well, I can remember on the High Holidays or any of the holidays, especially the ones that occurred in the early fall--what was going on in the early fall? There was the World Series. So people would leave for a while to go down to the bowling alley so they could find out what was happening in the World Series. Or if there was a football game going on--(laughs)--they&#039 ; d go out and listen to their radios or go down and see what they could find out about the ballgame during those holidays. Uh, so you could always--I could always remember some people just leaving to go out and sit in their car to listen to the radio to see what was goin&#039 ; on, uh, in those ballgames. I, I sort of miss that a little bit, that these World Series are played so late in the year now, I can&#039 ; t--you know, in November, late October, early November, because probably one of my favorite memories is going to high school when they played in the middle of the afternoon, havin&#039 ; a transistor radio with you that you would plug in to your ears, see what was going on, and maybe sometimes a teacher would turn a ballgame on on the television for you. But you don&#039 ; t have that anymore. (laughs) CRANE: Everybody has their own phone to watch it. WEINBERG: That&#039 ; s right. Yeah, they&#039 ; re not during the day. They do it at night now. (laughs) CRANE: I know that you attended the University of Kentucky. What years were you there and why did you choose UK [University of Kentucky]? WEINBERG: Well, uh, I was there from &#039 ; 64 to &#039 ; 68, and I would say it was late &#039 ; 68, not May of &#039 ; 68, &#039 ; cause I had deferred an additional semester because--(clears throat)--you know, the Vietnam War was goin&#039 ; on then. And they were giving student deferments to fulltime students, so I thought, &quot ; Well, why not take an extra semester and be a student rather than go over to Vietnam?&quot ; Uh, but why did I go to Kentucky? My sister went to Kentucky before I did, uh, five years before I did. So I think there was some connection there. I can always remember my cousins listening to the U of K ballgames on the radio, whether they be football or basketball. (clears throat) And I just became a Kentucky fan. I could&#039 ; ve gone to a number of universities when I was graduating, but it was pretty cheap for an in-state student to go to University of Kentucky. Um, when I think about what I pay for my children to go to the university when they--well, one went to, uh, uh, Indiana. Uh, and, uh--they were--I mean, they were thirty, forty, fifty thousand dollars a year. I paid $120 a semester tuition to go to the University of Kentucky--$120. Uh, when it went up to 125, there was protests. (laughs) Uh, but, uh--you know, Scott went to Emory. It was a private university. That was expensive. Uh, I don&#039 ; t know what it&#039 ; s gonna cost my grandchildren to go. But it&#039 ; s just, uh, just phenomenal. Uh, so I decided I--you know, why spend that money, uh, to go somewhere else when I could go for $120 a semester? That didn&#039 ; t include housing and food. Housing was costing more than, than tuition was. But, you know, you found somebody to share that expense with. (laughs) CRANE: What did you study while you were there? WEINBERG: Oh my gosh. Uh, I was--well, I--my first year--my first semester of my first year I was in Haggin Hall. Um, that was generally where the boys&#039 ; freshman dorm--where most of us went. Uh, there was Donovan also, which was an older one, but Haggin was the newer one. Uh, so that&#039 ; s where I was my first semester. Um, I roomed with a guy, uh, there that, uh--his name was Kurt. He--(laughs)--Kurt was fro--and you didn&#039 ; t select your roommate then ; they just gave you somebody--uh, Kurt was from Fulton County, Kentucky. Um, he would claim that Fulton County was the banana capital of the world. Uh, and if you look it up today, it will tell you that Fulton County was the banana capital of the world! (laughs) And I would say, &quot ; Well, how can that be? They don&#039 ; t grow bananas in Fulton County, Kentucky.&quot ; But 70 percent of all bananas that came to the United States went through Fulton County. Um, and so--uh, he, he probably had never met a Jew before. He was--I mean, if you know where Fulton County is, it&#039 ; s in far western southern part of the state. Uh, never met a Jew. Probably thought we had horns at that time. Um, he certainly didn&#039 ; t like the smell of kosher salami that I would hang in the room. (laughs) Uh, but, uh, but we got along fine. Uh, the second semester they didn&#039 ; t have enough room for everybody in the dorms, so they didn&#039 ; t require you to stay in the dorm. And so I moved out and went into a apartment. Um, I went in with Howard Passamaneck, who was a friend of mine from Louisville. We had been high school friends, uh, to, uh, Lyndhurst. Uh, Lyndhurst had an apartment that they had just put up. It was brand new at that time. It&#039 ; s fifty years old today. But, uh, it&#039 ; s, uh, it was new. Um, it was comfortable. It was an efficiency apartment. And Howard and I stayed there. Uh, after that, Howard and I moved to Lowry Lane, off of, uh, Nicholasville Road. Uh, that&#039 ; s where the shopping center is out there. Um, the--what, what&#039 ; s the name of that--I can&#039 ; t remember the name of the shopping center. Lowry La--no-- CRANE: It&#039 ; s sti--it was still there. I think they just tore it down recently. WEINBERG: Anyway. Lynd--Lyndhurst, Howard and I, again, were there. We didn&#039 ; t stay--we--we moved around because we didn&#039 ; t want to pay the rent for the summer, or--(clears throat)--so we, we were in different places. (laughs) Uh, after that we were on, uh, Lowry Lane. Again, uh, that&#039 ; s off of, uh, Nicholasville. Um, we were on Pinewood Place, which was off of the Belt--off of, uh, New Circle Road. Uh, there used to be a hotel on that corner, and it was--I think the name of it was the Continental. CRANE: Continental Inn. WEINBERG: The Continental Inn. And it was--it was sort of interesting, because it was sort of a tropical--it had a tropical ambience about it, and that was sort of different for that day and age. An atrium or whatever. Uh, but this apartment was right behind that. Um, we were in--(laughs)--Aylesford. Uh, Howard had already--had left the university, and I was in with a guy named Moon Mullins. Was not Jewish. CRANE: I remember him. WEINBERG: Uh, Moon Mullins. Um, learned quite a lesson during that. Uh, one is, uh, my cousin Harris Weinberg came to visit. Uh, we were cooking. I left the apartment to go get something, and something caught fire in the apartment on the stove. He called the fire department, but he didn&#039 ; t know where he was! (both laugh) So he had to run down the street--(Crane coughs)--with the, to the sign to get the sign--to see what road he was on to come back and tell &#039 ; em where the fire was. Something that stayed with me all my life, because when I had kids and we had babysitters, I always made sure that they had the address--(laughs)--uh, before we left. Um, we did have a nice party there on that street. I remember that little efficiency apartment must&#039 ; ve had two hundred, three hundred kids there, in--all over the place. Police came to break it up, several times. (laughs) Uh, I was walking somebody home, uh, when I heard the police cars coming. I said, &quot ; Gosh, there&#039 ; s a lot of police cars. Wonder what that is.&quot ; They went in and arrested everybody that was over there except me. (laughs) I was gone. Uh, they had paddy wagons over there that took everybody. All my friends, both from Louisville and elsewhere. Um-- CRANE: For just public intoxication, or-- WEINBERG: Because they--intoxication, it was too loud, the police had asked &#039 ; em--to be honest, I think the reason they were arrested is because it got a little out of hand. The police officers were a little younger. The girls got a little fresh with &#039 ; em. One took the billy club, one took the mace, one took the car. So--(laughs)--uh--so all of these pe--they had to get the dean of students to go down and get &#039 ; em out. Um, but it was, uh, part of the growing up. (laughs) CRANE: Fun times. WEINBERG: Uh, lived on Virginia Avenue with, uh, George Schwartzman. Uh, George was, uh, from Buffalo, New York. Uh, he was a senior, I was a junior. Uh, we still keep in touch today. He, he&#039 ; s been in--actually, he&#039 ; s been in Kentucky more recently than he has over the--in the last fifty years. Uh, so we&#039 ; ve been in contact with each other still. Uh, and then I was on Augusta Arms, which, again, was off of, uh, New Circle Road, uh, and I was in there with Mike Needleman (??) and Harry Jacobs. CRANE: What did you study while you were at UK? Or did you? WEINBERG: (sighs) Well, funny you should ask, because--(laughs)--the first time I took my kids to--up to the University of Kentucky, I was showing &#039 ; em, &quot ; Oh, I lived here, and I lived here, and I lived here,&quot ; and Beverly would say, &quot ; Well, show &#039 ; em where you went to class!&quot ; (laughs) Uh, so, uh--I did go to school, and I was in the, uh, College of, uh, Business and Economics. I stu--uh, I got my BS in accounting. Uh, that building was pretty new at the time, although I&#039 ; m not sure it&#039 ; s still there anymore, but it was-- CRANE: Is that the Commerce Building? WEINBERG: Yeah. CRANE: It is. WEINBERG: Um, so, uh, that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s where, uh, that&#039 ; s where I was. I got an award--(laughs)--I got an--I was in the Air Force ROTC [Reserve Officers&#039 ; Training Corps] for my first two years. After that you had to commit to being in the Air Force, uh, if you went any longer. And they told me I couldn&#039 ; t fly &#039 ; cause I had glasses, and I was probably too short anyway. So, uh, I decided to drop out. But my second year I got an award in the Air Force ROTC for best student in Air Force ROTC. I&#039 ; m not sure that I was the best student, but one of the upperclassmen I helped out with accounting, and I think that&#039 ; s why I got that award--(laughs)--because I was able to help him get through his classes. So, uh-- CRANE: Describe your relationship with any Jewish or non-Jewish organizations on UK&#039 ; s campus at the time. WEINBERG: Any Jewish or non-Jewish-- CRANE: There was a Jewish fraternity on campus. WEINBERG: There was a Jewish fraternity. Um, there was ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau]. CRANE: And were you a member? WEINBERG: Uh, for maybe a month. (laughs) I was actually the president of the pledge class, uh, when I came in. Uh, but I didn&#039 ; t stick with it. I, I really--I was in an apartment. I was having a good time in apartments. Uh, a lot of my friends were not in ZBT. Um, I think they came knocking on my door one morning, about two o&#039 ; clock in the morning, and wanted to--me to get up and do somethin&#039 ; , and I just pulled the pillow over my head and said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m not doing that!&quot ; (laughs) And, uh, went back to sleep, and that was the last time I was in ZBT. Um, I don&#039 ; t--I think I was a little burned out anyway. I&#039 ; d been very active in the clubs in the center, uh, for, you know, three years. And I tha--I just thought I didn&#039 ; t need that socialization. They weren&#039 ; t doing that much that I couldn&#039 ; t do anyway. Um, and I found it too time-consuming, and, uh, and I had other friends that were not in, not participants. That was the only Jewish fraternity on campus. Uh, and when I say &quot ; Jewish fraternity,&quot ; it was the only fraternity Jews could join! Uh, the others would--didn&#039 ; t admit Jews, uh, whether it be--and there were no sororities, uh, that admitted, uh, Jews at that time. So, uh--but I ne--again, that&#039 ; s probably the extent of the discrimination I found on UK&#039 ; s campus, because, um, I, I practiced my Juda--I mean, I practiced my Judaism on U of K--at U of K--uh, on holidays. I probably missed more than the average student because I would go to be out for yizkors or yahrzeits or Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur or whatever the holiday might be. I never found it a problem with any professor to make up any work or to question why I was gone for those, um--I think--I found out that if you respect yourself and your principles and your religion that others will respect you as well, and I found that throughout life. I found that in the army, when I was in, doing basic training. Um, first--well, do you, do you want to get into it? CRANE: Sure. WEINBERG: So we--when I was doing basic training, you have to do KP [kitchen police]. KP duty, everybody rotated through KP duty. Now they liked me spreading the bacon because I didn&#039 ; t like to touch it. Uh, and the other guys would eat it as fast as they could make it. So I was the guy who--(laughs)--they&#039 ; d have spread the bacon. Um, I also kept kosher meat--(laughs)--uh, that they would send me from home, little packages of corned beef or salami or whatever, so that when they had food that I wouldn&#039 ; t eat, I could go back into the kitchen and grab my salami or corned beef. Uh, never a problem unless somebody ate it before I got there. (laughs) Uh, we were out on bivouac in the army, and I had maybe a yizkor, uh, memorial service. And I told &#039 ; em, and I didn&#039 ; t, I didn&#039 ; t do the bivouac. I went to services. Uh-- CRANE: Where were you stationed? WEINBERG: Fort Polk, Louisiana. Very bad during the summer. (laughs) I was there from April fifteenth, tax day, until August. CRANE: Wow. WEINBERG: Um-- CRANE: What was your, uh--just going back to the ZBTs for a minute, what was your pledge class like? Were they mostly Jewish students? WEINBERG: Well, yeah. The pledge class was almost always--almost all Jewish. I would say that--I don&#039 ; t know of anybody in there that wasn&#039 ; t Jewish. But I didn&#039 ; t know everybody, &#039 ; cause I didn&#039 ; t stay that long. (laughs) Uh, but most all of &#039 ; em were Jewish. And most of &#039 ; em were from the Northeast. Um, and maybe that--you know, I didn&#039 ; t, I didn&#039 ; t know them. A lot of the kids that I knew were from Louisville, um, and in this area. And those are the friends I maintained, and, uh, and kept there. CRANE: And did you have any kind of connection with Hillel or any other Jewish organizations while you were on campus? WEINBERG: Hillel. Uh, Hillel was somewhat active. It was, um, based out of the temple, I think. Uh, that&#039 ; s where most of the events were. Um, and they were very nice. They had, you know--periodically they&#039 ; d have, uh, dinners. And if you&#039 ; re a college student and can find a free dinner, it will attract you there. And, uh, that&#039 ; s where I met a lot of the, you know, a lot of the people that were at U of K and some of the locals, uh--you know, Judy Wurmser, I think, uh, um, was a local. Uh, who else? Um, Susan Jacobs-- CRANE: --um-hm-- WEINBERG: --was a local. Um, so, um, you know, we met, uh, we met some of those people. You know, one of the--certainly one of the families that took all of us in that was like a second home to us, uh, was yours. Uh, your mom and dad, uh, had us over for any holiday we didn&#039 ; t go home for. Um, they were just, uh, great. Uh, Irv and, um, Irv and Martha Steinberg. Um, probably another reason that we were always over there was because, uh, yeah, you and your sister, uh, uh, Cookie. Uh, we called her Cookie. Her name was Betty. But I&#039 ; ve never called her Betty. She&#039 ; s Cookie. (laughs) CRANE: Just Cookie? WEINBERG: Uh, but it was a second home to us. Uh, and your parents, uh, not only made meals, but they were--your dad was entertaining. (laughs) Uh, he&#039 ; s always fun to be around. CRANE: &quot ; Fun.&quot ; I&#039 ; ve not quite heard that description before, but-- WEINBERG: --he was fun-- CRANE: --I&#039 ; ll remember it. Describe the--you touched on this a little bit, but the climate on campus for Jews becoming members of non-Jewish fraternities, um, that--did everyone, uh, were there more of you and less of the ZBTs? Were there more people that didn&#039 ; t affiliate? And how did you connect with them? Um, how did you meet other Jewish kids on campus? WEINBERG: Well, I mean, I, I, I probably knew more ki--more Jewish kids on campus than I knew of ZBTers. Um, and we had our, well, we had our own fun. You know, we could have our own parties. We could have, uh, our own dances. We could do whatever we chose, uh, without the restrictions of a fraternity. Um, and so that&#039 ; s what-- CRANE: --if I&#039 ; m not mistaken-- WEINBERG: --we did. CRANE: --you had a couple of--not roommates, but other people in your apartment complex that were Jewish. WEINBERG: Yup. Jay Levine was out there. Bruce Gimmer (??) was out there. Uh, Howard Rosenberg was out there. Mickey Lorch (??) was out there. Uh, there were a lot. Uh, again, a lot of--a lot of those that were in Zeebs were, uh, were from the Northeast. Um, always wondered how they found their way to Kentucky, but I think it was, again, because it was cheap, even for out-of-state students. Uh, it wasn&#039 ; t $120, but it was still cheap. Um, but, you know, we, we, we had a lot of people up there from Louisville, a lot of people. Uh, Jay Levine, Howard Passamaneck. Jay passed away a number of years ago now. Uh, Howard Rosenberg and I are still very good friends. Um, Jaye Hinerfeld Bittner, um, was there for--till she failed out. But--(laughs)--but she came back to be a very good student. Um, and, uh--but we&#039 ; re still best of friends. Um, Mike Needleman, uh, was there. Just a whole slew of people. Hettie Miller-Reuben (??), uh, title. (laughs) Uh, Louis Reuben, uh, and Hettie, uh, were dating when we were there, uh, ultimately got married, uh, when we got out. Um, who else was there? George Schwartzman I told you. Ben Bayer (??) was there, a lot of fun, uh, from Danville, Kentucky. Um, Jill Essie (??)--Simon, now--Jill Essie was there. Um, Bruce Goomer (??), uh-- CRANE: --you did know a lot of Jewish people, did you-- WEINBERG: --Max Goldsmith, uh, Teddy Gordon, uh, Mickey Lorch. Uh, Teddy Gordon, by the way, he&#039 ; s probably the one you hear about all the time taking the school board to court, uh, who also took &#039 ; em to the Supreme Court over, uh, the busing issue. (coughs) And won, to some degree. There&#039 ; s still busing, but under a very different basis. CRANE: So most of these people were from Louisville? So--I mean, uh-- WEINBERG: --most-- CRANE: --obviously some of &#039 ; em weren&#039 ; t. WEINBERG: Well, most of &#039 ; em weren&#039 ; t. Uh, Mel--there was a Melvin Orlansky, from Mississippi. Uh-- CRANE: And somehow you all just found each other and-- WEINBERG: --yeah-- CRANE: --and connected. WEINBERG: Yeah. Probably some through Hillel. Uh, Judy Witzer was there. Uh, Mickey Franklin was there. Met Simone Bloomfield, who, uh, ultimately married, uh, Arty, uh-- CRANE: --Salomon-- WEINBERG: --Salomon, right. Arty Solomon. Uh, so again, where did I meet those? I--probably at Hillel, but I, I&#039 ; m not sure. Just sort of happened. CRANE: One of those wild parties. WEINBERG: At one of those parties where nobody got arrested. CRANE: Um, how did your time at UK impact your Jewish identity? Did it change from living in Louisville and spending all that time at the Comm--Jewish Community Center? Um, did it stay the same? WEINBERG: Well, I still identified strongly with Judaism, um, whether I was here or whether I was there. Uh, again, I never found any anti-Semitism on campus, uh, that affected me. Um, you know, I kept my kosher, uh, uh, restrictions within the apartment. You know, I wasn&#039 ; t always with--well, none of the roommates I had really kept kosher. But they kept--but I had silverware--(laughs)--that I would paint with polish, nail polish, on the ends of &#039 ; em so you&#039 ; d know which ones were milk silverware and which ones were meat, so they wouldn&#039 ; t get &#039 ; em confused and, uh, and keep everything straight in those apartments. So, you know, I, I didn&#039 ; t find it to be a problem, uh, to maintain my Jewishness and yet do everything I wanted, uh, out there. CRANE: What did you do after you graduated? WEINBERG: Oh, man. Uh, well, I--(laughs)-- CRANE: And how did you meet your wife? WEINBERG: Uh, when I graduated, uh, I was already in the reserves, the army reserves. Uh, and I&#039 ; d already been recruited by General Electric, uh, for their financial management program. Uh, I didn&#039 ; t--hadn&#039 ; t--hadn&#039 ; t done my basic training yet, uh, when I got out. So I deferred with General Electric until I finished with my basic training. Uh, so I, uh, I did do that. I went and did my basic training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. Uh, I, uh--afte--after Fort Polk, um, I started with General Electric. I met my wife Beverly on a blind date, arranged by Mayor Jerry Abramson. Uh, Jerry and I had been close at that time, uh, for years. We grew up together. And, uh, Beverly&#039 ; s best friend was Jerry&#039 ; s sister. Uh, and Jerry and I were hanging around a lot. And I didn&#039 ; t know Beverly, because she was a few years younger than me. Uh, but, uh--but it seemed to work out. (laughs) We&#039 ; ve been married for forty-four years now. I hope that&#039 ; s right when she hears this, but it is. Forty-four. (laughs) Um, after that, uh, I was with General Electric for, uh, fifteen years. Uh, I, uh, had become the, uh, manager of accounting for the western half of, uh, distribution sales. Um, I, uh, had been offered transfers a number of times and was close to taking a couple of those and just chose not to. Yeah, so then my upward mobility, I felt, was limited, and it was time to either wear the monogram as a tattoo or to, uh, find somethin&#039 ; else. And so I left General Electric, and actually I opened up a, uh, uh, sandwich and pizza shop in the mall--see, you didn&#039 ; t know that either, did you?--uh, called All American Hero. It was a franchise. It was in Oxmoor Mall. Uh, I did that for about five years. Um, and then, uh, the mall, the Oxmoor Mall, wanted the food, uh, the food stores to move up to a food court, and it was, uh--it just--then they wanted me to pay for that, to renovate it, to do the, all the--what I had done in the shop. And then while I was selling pizza and subs, they wanted that to be two separate shops. Uh, and so I didn&#039 ; t, um, I chose not to do that. Uh, during the time that I was, um--while I had the shop, uh, I also had become the chie--CFO of the Jewish Community Federation of Louisville. Uh, so I had the shop open for about five years. Uh, after about three years I became the CFO, as wel,l of the Federation, and I spent the next twenty-three years with them. CRANE: What exactly is the Jewish--it&#039 ; s Jewish Community Federation, right? WEINBERG: When I started, it was the Jewish Community Federation of Louisville, JCFL. Um, it&#039 ; s changed a little bit in its nature since then, but it was that way for most of my career. Uh, and what is it? The easiest way to describe what the Federation was is it&#039 ; s the Metro United Way of the Jewish community. You raised dollars and allocated &#039 ; em to recipient agencies. Um, so that&#039 ; s, I mean, that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s what we did. That&#039 ; s what it was. Uh, we were sort of a coordinator of programming through those agencies, uh, simply because you could allocate dollars where you wanted the programs to be. And so, uh, you became a coordinator of moving the community in the direction you thought it needed to, and who could provide those services in the most effective and efficient way. CRANE: So what were exactly were your responsibilities, and how did--what was your relationship with allocating those dollars, and who--what agencies got them? WEINBERG: (sighs) Well, I, I always say that the reason I went with the, with the feder--number one, when I went with the Federation, I probably thought it was just gonna be for a couple years, and then I was just gonna move along and go back to the for-profit arena. Uh, but I found, working for the Federation, that it was much more rewarding than just trying to see what the bottom li--the bottom line, getting the best net income you could. Uh, I found, uh, working in the Jewish community for something you believed in that was helping people, uh, was much more rewarding than working for a General Electric or somebody like them. Uh, how did that happen? Um, the--you know, we raised dollars. We had committees that would review requests for allocations. We had certain local, uh, agencies, uh, that we always allocated to, whether it be the Jewish Community Center, the Jewish Family and Vocational Service, uh, the local Hebrew schools, um, um, the Council of Jewish Women, uh, you know, they&#039 ; d make requests and then we would have to pare it down because there&#039 ; s--while everybody has a great cause, probably the most difficult job is that there&#039 ; s never enough resources for the needs in the community. And so, uh, you would just ha--you&#039 ; d have to make--these committees would make the decisions on how to allocate those dollars. Alan Engel was the executive director at that time. He&#039 ; s who hired me. Uh, he was, uh, just outstanding. Um, he came with a long, uh, family history of community service, uh, with federations. His dad was a federation director. Uh, he had been around in Cleveland and, uh, uh, St. Louis and Denver before he came to Louisville. Um, so we, we worked well together, and I, and I stayed, uh, with the Federation. CRANE: How did the Federation get its money? WEINBERG: Uh, annual campaigns. Um, go out to the community, ask for dollars. Um, had a lot of volunteers that did that. Uh, but, you know, you had, uh, those that were your larger donors, you, uh, we had, uh, million-dollar dinners, uh, where those people would come and make their, their gifts. It would be a nice dinner, and we&#039 ; d have a nice speaker. Uh, Coach Cal came to speak the first year he was, uh, at Kentucky. Um, I&#039 ; ll tell you a story about that too. Uh, and they introduced me to Cal because I was a big Kentucky fan. And I said, &quot ; This is David Weinberg, want you to meet him. Big Kentucky fan.&quot ; And I said, &quot ; And I got a good story for you.&quot ; Right after I had graduated the university, um, there was a girl that was going to University of Georgia that asked me to come down for their sorority dance, and it was a weekend Kentucky was playing Georgia in basketball. I said, &quot ; What a great weekend! Go to the sorority dance, go to the ballgame. Can&#039 ; t beat that.&quot ; I get down there--and they only had a cracker-box of a gym down at Georgia at that time. I couldn&#039 ; t find a ticket. So I was in the, uh, hotel with the team. I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m gonna call Adolph Rupp and ask him for a ticket. (laughs) I know how I can get a ticket.&quot ; So I called him, and I said--he was in the hotel ; I just said, &quot ; Give me Adolph Rupp&#039 ; s room,&quot ; and they gave me Adolph Rupp&#039 ; s room. And he answered the call, and I told him my sad story, and he said, &quot ; Well,&quot ; he says, &quot ; Come on down to my room about four o&#039 ; clock, and I&#039 ; ll see what I can do for you.&quot ; I went down there at four o&#039 ; clock. He comes out in his blue robe, talks to me about Dan Issel, who&#039 ; d hurt his hand, didn&#039 ; t know how effective he&#039 ; d be at playing that, that night, and gave me two tickets next to his wife. So I related the-- CRANE: --now that&#039 ; s a good story-- WEINBERG: --so I--(Crane laughs)--so I related that story to Cal, and he said, &quot ; What a great story!&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Yeah, and I don&#039 ; t expect any less of you.&quot ; (both laugh) CRANE: Did he give you two tickets? No. WEINBERG: He didn&#039 ; t give me any yet, but you have to ask. CRANE: That&#039 ; s true. (Weinberg laughs) Um, clearly you&#039 ; ve worked with, um, lots of the Jewish community for many years, I guess in your divvying out the money. Um, what relationship did, um--if any--did the Federation have with the Jewish Hospital? WEINBERG: Well, we had a very close relationship. There was no legal relationship, um, but, uh, but it felt like there was a, an agency-type relationship. Uh, Jewish Hospital was good to the Federation ; it was good to the entire Jewish community. Um, Hank Wagner was the, uh, the executive there. Uh, whatever he could do--number one, they, they made a nice gift to the Federation every year for the campaign. But that wasn&#039 ; t nearly the extent of what they did. Um, we were on their insurance policy just as if we were Jewish Hospital employees. And I don&#039 ; t mean just the Federation. I meant any Jewish communal worker through the Federation could be on their policy. Um, probably not all legal, because there was no legal relationship between us. But they wanted to do that. Um, so we had synagogue employees that were on that plan. We had all our agency employees that were on that plan. We had our JC--you know, the JCC [Jewish Community Center], the family service, their employees, through the Federation to the hospital, were on their plan. We paid less for our premiums than their employees were paying for their premiums. Our premiums probably didn&#039 ; t go up for 15 years. As medical costs were rising and skyrocketing and other insurance premiums, the hospital subsidized them. They never charged us any more. Probably to the tune of close to a million dollars a year at one time. CRANE: And this is not just for the employees of the Federation but-- WEINBERG: But Jewish community. All employees within the Jewish community, and all of its agencies. CRANE: That&#039 ; s pretty amazing. WEINBERG: It was amazing. Um, they, and they started paring that down after a while. But, uh, but it was up to close to a million dollars. Uh, our executives paid zero. The executives paid nothing for their medical insurance for their families through Jewish Hospital. Um, it was--and they had a, they had a very good plan for their employees. So it was, it was very nice. Not only that, uh, when we brought the Russians in, uh, you know, when they were, uh, were fleeing, uh, uh, Russia, and we brought a bunch of those, uh, immigrants in, they, a, helped find employment for &#039 ; em at the hospital, and b, provided, uh, free medical, uh, uh, services for them. So, uh, they&#039 ; ve always been a very close, uh, it was a very close relationship. It all happened because of Hank Wagner. Uh, he wanted that relationship to remain. CRANE: With the community-- WEINBERG: --with the community, right-- CRANE: --at large. That&#039 ; s, um, quite a interesting piece of information. What do you see as the changes, having worked with the, the larger Jewish community and through the Federation and Jewish Hospital and some of these other, um, organizations that received some of your funding, um, how do you see the changes, um, in the Jewish community over time? WEINBERG: Well, there&#039 ; s been a lot of change. Uh, it used to have a strong affiliation with synagogues. There&#039 ; s not nearly as strong affiliation today as there used to be. (clears throat) CRANE: What do you mean by that? WEINBERG: I mean, I mean there&#039 ; s more non-affiliated Jews with their synagogues, with synagogues. Um, there&#039 ; s not the commitment to the synagogues that there used to be from those who do participate. Um, children growing up--while my children participated a lot at the center, it&#039 ; s not the same--ever since probably there&#039 ; s been--I blame busing. I blame busing for a lot of things, &#039 ; cause I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s accomplished the ends that they&#039 ; d like to have accomplished. Uh, and I was one of the strongest supporters of busing when it occurred, but I just don&#039 ; t think that it, that it&#039 ; s worked out. But I think it&#039 ; s destroyed the neighborhoods, it&#039 ; s destroyed the friendships. Um, you know, they&#039 ; ve got kids that are bused to different schools--it used to be you played with the friends in the neighborhood, you went to school with the friends in the neighborhood, you went to the center with the friends in the neighborhood, uh, and now it&#039 ; s just all scattered. Uh, so I think it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s hurt a lot. Um, the club system isn&#039 ; t what it used to be. Uh, again, I blame part of that on the fact that, uh--of busing. Uh, you&#039 ; re not friends with the kids in your neighborhood, you&#039 ; re not friends with the kids at your school, you know, goin&#039 ; to the center. So it&#039 ; s affected that as well. (coughs) Um, so I--you know, volunteerism in general, I don&#039 ; t think is what it used to be. Uh, I don&#039 ; t know if they&#039 ; re burned out, they&#039 ; ve got other things they need to do. They&#039 ; re not as committed. Um, you know, they, uh, they talk about the X generation and the Millennials and, and whatever, and I call it the Me Generation, uh, because it&#039 ; s all about me first. Uh, it&#039 ; s all about I want the biggest television, the nicest car, the biggest house. I want it today, I don&#039 ; t want to wait till tomorrow, and I don&#039 ; t care if somebody else is starving. Um, I think it&#039 ; s, uh, it&#039 ; s sort of sad, but that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s the way I see things that have started to happen. Um-- CRANE: So do you feel like--(Weinberg clears throat)--people are less Jewish, and that&#039 ; s why they&#039 ; re not affiliating, uh, with congregations, or they&#039 ; re less into the organized religious part, or, um-- WEINBERG: Uh, I think a little of all, all the above. Um, I don&#039 ; t think their parents have made the commitment, and therefore the children hadn&#039 ; t made as much of a commitment. They--you know--(clears throat)--our parents would--I don&#039 ; t think that the, the parents have made the commitment to their children to get them to Jewish functions and to make sure they associate with their Jewish, uh, uh, friends and, uh, activities. Um, our parents used to make sure that we got to the synagogue, that we got to the Jewish Community Center, maybe even on a daily basis, because that&#039 ; s where the activity was. Um, I think the center has failed in some degree because I think they, uh, had the facilities and the resources, uh, to make it a, as desirable a place as any place outside the center, and haven&#039 ; t, sometimes maybe because of the, the nature of the beast today, with lawsuits and injury and whatever else. Uh, they&#039 ; ve made it more difficult to drive to different events, uh, to sign off for purposes of protecting themselves. Those are--you know, you don&#039 ; t have to do that goin&#039 ; somewhere else. Um, so it&#039 ; s, you know, it&#039 ; s--if you, if you make it harder, they&#039 ; re just not gonna do it. They&#039 ; ll go somewhere where it&#039 ; s easier and more fun. CRANE: What are your most memorable, um, thoughts about your work at the Federation? (pause) In looking back-- WEINBERG: --well-- CRANE: --over the last--what, twenty-something years? WEINBERG: Twenty-plus years. CRANE: Twenty, yeah. WEINBERG: I&#039 ; m still doing some consulting with the feder--with--it&#039 ; s not called the Federation anymore, it&#039 ; s called the Jewish Community of Louisville. CRANE: Oh! WEINBERG: Uh, they merged with, uh, the Jewish Community Center. Uh, that happened in about 2007 or &#039 ; 8. Uh, I was the vice president and CFO of that organization, of the merged organization. Um, they, uh--I think that&#039 ; s one of the, I mean, that&#039 ; s one of the things. I mean, that, that merger was accomplished. It wasn&#039 ; t an easy thing to do, uh, because everybody has their, uh, had their own board, everybody had their own way of doing things, everybody had, uh, their au--you know, their autonomy, where now they didn&#039 ; t. Uh, and it wasn&#039 ; t easy to bring the, the accounting systems together and the culture together. A lot of people looked at the Federation as being on this, quote, &quot ; pedestal.&quot ; Uh, and, uh, and resented it, I think. Uh, so, um-- CRANE: Can you explain that? WEINBERG: Yeah. I, I think, uh, we probably had the, the--the leadership was stronger at the Federation, and the leadership raised the money and allocated it as they chose, uh, through different committees and representations, but it was still the Federation. Uh, and I think people resent that idea. If you ask for, if you ask for two hundred thousand dollars and you get a hundred thousand, there&#039 ; s some resentment. &quot ; Uh, well, what are you doin&#039 ; with that money?&quot ; &quot ; Well, you know, there&#039 ; s other needs.&quot ; &quot ; Well, if the Federation people weren&#039 ; t making so much, then there&#039 ; d be more to allocate.&quot ; And so I think the attempt to bring those organizations together was to certainly reduce some of that overhead, uh, and have more dollars to allocate. But their, the cultures of the two organizations, uh, there was, there was an issue bringing &#039 ; em together. Uh, &#039 ; cause they resented each other at that point, uh. And so, uh--but I think they, you know, with, with time and passa--with passage of time, that, that passes as well. So, uh, I think they&#039 ; re doing much better today than they were when the initial merger occurred. CRANE: Did they do better--are you saying they were better when they were separated? WEINBERG: No, I&#039 ; m not necessarily. I think the, uh, I think just trying to bring everybody together who had different feelings about their organization, it was hard to have people take off their individual hats and put on a community hat. Um, so that was a change. Do I think we were--you know, my personal-- CRANE: --um-hm-- WEINBERG: --my personal opinion--and some people will disagree with this, I&#039 ; m sure--in retrospect, I think there were better things about being separate. Uh, when it merged, it created some hard--some very--it created some, some splits within the community. Those that were Federation supporters, those who were Jewish Community Center supporters, um, felt like they were ignored in, uh, felt like they were ignored. Some of the big givers quit giving, because they didn&#039 ; t agree with the, the way it was merged or what happened with the merger. So they lost significant dollars in pledges. So, while the attempt was to reduce the overhead so there would be more dollars to allocate, the fact was what you saved in dollars there you lost in pledges. Uh, so that didn&#039 ; t work out so well. Uh, and while I think some people resented the fact that the Federation was--appeared to be this, quote, &quot ; elitist&quot ; type of group, I think there&#039 ; s some benefit to that, in retrospect. Uh, I think people want to affiliate with and be a part of that kind of an organization that is somewhat elitist, at least appears to be, uh, elitist. Uh, because they, uh, they want to affiliate with it. They don&#039 ; t mind giving. It draws your leadership--your, your wealthier leadership, anyway--um, together. Um, and I think they lost some of that. CRANE: What was the relationship between the Federation before it merged and the synagogues and temples in Louisville? WEINBERG: Well, the, there was no allocation bein&#039 ; made to the synagogues and temple except for, uh, the Hebrew school. Uh, they did allocate dollars to the temple Hebrew school, because they were not part of this community Hebrew school. The other synagogues belonged to the community Hebrew school. Uh, Temple Shalom, Keneseth, Adath Jeshurun, um, all belonged to the community school. They had about a hundred kids, uh, participating. The temple, the largest congregation, had their own Hebrew school of about a hundred kids. And they were getting no allocation. So, uh, people complained about that, and they started making an allocation on a per-capita basis, uh, to those kids for Jewish education. And, um, other than that, I mean, there was a good working relationship, but no allocations and no agency-type relationship, other than providing the health insurance, uh, through the Federation. CRANE: As far as, uh, things like community calendars or joint events, did they--did individual temples and synagogues do their own thing, or did they all sort of run through the Federation? WEINBERG: Well, it&#039 ; s interesting. The JCC, not the Federation, was keeping a community calendar. Uh, and sometimes it was better than others, and sometimes people participated and sometimes people didn&#039 ; t. Uh, so I would say that, you know, it wasn&#039 ; t as effective as it could&#039 ; ve been or should&#039 ; ve been. Um, and that&#039 ; s, you know, that&#039 ; s where it is today probably as well. CRANE: You&#039 ; ve mentioned Jerry Abramson, um, several times, um, as your friend, but, um, as a mayor, what do you, how do you feel that his being Jewish and being the mayor of Louisville has, um--if at any, what has it been--what impact has it had on the Jewish community or Louisville at large? WEINBERG: Well, I think the Jewish leadership in Louisville has been significant. You know, our, our numbers are not very great. We maybe have about eighty-five hundred out of a million-plus, uh, metro area. But you&#039 ; ve got Jerry Abramson, who was mayor for a number of years. Uh, you&#039 ; ve got John Yarmouth, who&#039 ; s a, uh, um, House representative. Um, so, and, and, so we, you know, we&#039 ; ve been active. The Jewish Hospital has been, you know, has been active. It&#039 ; s been in, at least Jewish in name, if not anything else, but, uh, Jewish in name. They were, you know, at the top of the pote--totem pole with hand surgery and heart surgeries and heart transplants and hand transplants and so I, you know, I think we&#039 ; ve, uh, -----------(??) leadership. Somethin&#039 ; a lot of people don&#039 ; t under--don&#039 ; t know is that the Jewish Community Center, uh, started their orchestra probably back in the 1900s, early 1900s, which ultimately evolved into the Louisville, uh, Orchestra. Uh, the, that was the birthplace of the Louisville Orchestra. CRANE: When did the Jewish Community Center start? WEINBERG: Well, the YMHA was, uh, was the third oldest YMHA, and that was the--the predecessor of the JCC. CRANE: What does YM--Y-- WEINBERG: --Y-M-- CRANE: --M-H-A-- WEINBERG: Young Men Hebrews [sic] Association. CRANE: Ah. WEINBERG: Um, and that, uh--when did that start? The, uh--(pause)--that was in 1890. The YMHA was started in 1890. In 1955 it became the Jewish Community Center on Dutchmans Lane. But the YMHA, um, was--has been around a long time. Uh-- CRANE: And the--did the Federation fund that building? WEINBERG: Did the Federation fund which building? The-- CRANE: --the JCC-- WEINBERG: --JCC building? CRANE: Um-hm. WEINBERG: I think it, uh, to be honest, I don&#039 ; t know. Uh, I think it was just a community drive, uh, that started that. Um-- CRANE: David, what, what was Judaism like? Um, we&#039 ; ve talked about you growing up and your work and what about, um, Judaism in your home as a parent? Um, how was it--how did--did it differ from you growing up? WEINBERG: How did what differ? CRANE: How Judaism in your home with your children, you as a parent, you and Beverly. WEINBERG: Than when I grew up? CRANE: Um-hm. WEINBERG: Ah, more Conservative than Orthodox. Uh, when I was growing up, we were certainly much more Orthodox in my home, and gradually becoming more Conservative with my aunt and uncle. Um, but, uh, but, you know, we-- CRANE: --did you keep a kosher home?-- WEINBERG: Kept a kosher home. Uh, that didn&#039 ; t mean we didn&#039 ; t eat out. Uh, but we did keep a kosher home. Uh, today, uh, most every Friday evening, uh, Scott and his family will come for, uh, Shabbat dinner. Uh, and I&#039 ; ll light the candles, say the Kiddush, say the Motzi. Um, the kids have gotten into a tradition of, uh, we give &#039 ; em a little bit of, uh, silver to put into, uh, a charity box, uh, at the meal, and, uh, once a year we&#039 ; ll distribute that. And so-- CRANE: --that&#039 ; s a nice-- WEINBERG: --you know, uh, so, you know, the holidays, uh, we all go to the synagogue. Um, Scott, again, is very active, uh, has been very active. So, uh, I think we&#039 ; ve--you know, we&#039 ; re not as, not as, uh, Orthodox as we used to be, but we&#039 ; re still Jews. (laughs) CRANE: How did your children feel, um, about their Jewishness in Louisville? Were they, um--do you think they felt any anti-Semitism or anything different than you might have felt? WEINBERG: No, I think they had a, a strong commitment to their Judaism through high school. Um, while they were with me. They, you know, they participated in the clubs. Uh, Scott was the president of, uh, of one of the chapters. Lindsey was, uh, uh, also active in her chapter. Um, I don&#039 ; t think there was, they felt any discrimination in any way. I think they missed out a lot on what we had as kids being within the same neighborhood, the same schools, as much activity at the center as we had. Um, but, um--and I, and I&#039 ; m sorry for that, because I thought that was, uh, some pretty good times. Um, but it is what it is, and-- CRANE: (pause) What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life or Jewish ritual as a child or an adult? Or as a parent? WEINBERG: When I was a child, I think it&#039 ; d be, uh--I mean, one, it would be bar mitzvah. Um, when my bar mitzvah was a big bar mitzvah. I mean, it was--(laughs)--uh, we went at eight o&#039 ; clock in the morning. I did this--the morning service, Shacharit, I did, uh, Haftorah, and I did Musaf, and that went from eight till twelve. Uh, we had--(laughs)--we had sent out invitations to a lot of our friends, some who were not Jewish, and they got there at eight o&#039 ; clock, which Jews don&#039 ; t do, for the most part. Um, and, uh, and there weren&#039 ; t a whole lot of people there, but they were there. And they said, &quot ; My goodness, Jews must have big bladders, because they--(laughs)--have such long service.&quot ; I said, &quot ; You can get up and go to the bathroom if you need!&quot ; But they were in the service. Um, but I had, uh, it was a, you know, they had a big Kiddush afterwards. Uh, we had a big adult party at the Kentucky Hotel. There were ice sculptures, there was serving, um--my dad went up to Chicago and picked out the kosher meat that he wanted to serve. Uh, it was brought out on silver trays all at the same time. I mean, it was a, it was a big bar mitzvah. Uh, people would tell me in the parking lot of Kroger&#039 ; s--some of these ninety-year-old people would say, &quot ; I still remember your bar mitzvah.&quot ; (laughs) And, uh--so, um, you know, I, I remember that. And we had a kids&#039 ; party as well that--not with steak, but with fried chicken, but--(laughs)--uh, but it was nice. Uh, that&#039 ; s a big memory. Uh, the memory of goin&#039 ; to my grandfather&#039 ; s house with all of the family, uh, that would stay there and, uh-- CRANE: You mean Sam Meyers&#039 ; s house. WEINBERG: Sam Meyers&#039 ; s house, that&#039 ; s right. Sam--(laughs)--what I thought was my grandfather&#039 ; s house! Goin&#039 ; to Sam Meyers&#039 ; s house, uh, uh, was--I mean, to see all those people, you, you got to remember, I had, in that family, I had, uh, uh, ten cousins. I had ten first cousins. And so their parents. And those cousins stayed in this little house, overnight. Sometimes for two nights, for Rosh Hashanah. Um, and so it was, uh, interesting. They had a little bathroom downstairs &#039 ; cause they had to build one for my grandmother, just--you went into the cellar from the first--normally from the first floor, but on that landing, on that step landing, they built a small bathroom, so that--(laughs)--she could--didn&#039 ; t have to walk up the steps all the time. So, um--so to--(laughs)--so to go to the basement, then you had to go through the bathroom--(both laugh)--but, uh--you know, she would make--she wouldn&#039 ; t cook on Shabbos or on the yontiff, so it was on a low fire, uh, in the basement, in the stove down there. And so you smelled it through the house all the time. And you had to go through that bathroom to get to, to bring the food up, and, um--you know, those are, those are all good memories. CRANE: And with your kids, what&#039 ; s one of your fondest memories raising your kids Jewish? WEINBERG: Seein&#039 ; what they&#039 ; ve, uh, what they&#039 ; ve continued to do as adults, um, both bein&#039 ; as active as they are, bringing their kids up very Jewish too. So you think you had to do something right or just be lucky. (laughs) CRANE: You probably did something right, David. What has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your activities and as your identity as a Jew? WEINBERG: Ah. That&#039 ; s the homeland. Uh, Federation, again, uh, that was, uh--Federation was there to raise money for Israel. Um, my daughter&#039 ; s, uh, bat mitzvah we had in Israel. Um, my son, uh, went on the March of the Living, uh, which was through the concentration camps with a, a large group through the United States, uh, culminating in a, uh--being in Israel. Uh, so that&#039 ; s meant a lot to, to both of them and to us. Uh, you know, I spend my--at one time, 50 percent of all the dollars we raised went to Israel. Um, during the, uh, you know, during the, the wars, I mean, people, people, uh, stepped forward and contributed, and, uh, we raised money for Israel. CRANE: That&#039 ; s changed, right? WEINBERG: Mm, no. We don&#039 ; t allocate as much on a regular basis, but when there&#039 ; s an emergency, people still step up. CRANE: Looking back, what, if anything, would you change about your relationship with Judaism? WEINBERG: What, if anything, would I change? CRANE: Um-hm. WEINBERG: You know, I, uh, probably wouldn&#039 ; t change a whole lot. Um, I respect those that are more Orthodox than I. Uh, sometimes I think, you know, maybe I should be more religious than I am, but the reality is I wouldn&#039 ; t change. Uh, but I respect those who can do it. CRANE: Is there anything else you&#039 ; d like to share that I haven&#039 ; t asked you about or that we haven&#039 ; t already talked about? WEINBERG: (sighs) Uh, goodness. We&#039 ; ve pretty much talked about most everything. Uh, yeah. (pause) CRANE: Well, David, this has been really fun-- WEINBERG: --it&#039 ; s been-- CRANE: --getting to see this other side of you that, um--(Weinberg laughs)--I wasn&#039 ; t quite as familiar with. And, uh-- WEINBERG: --it&#039 ; s my pleasure. I&#039 ; m glad that, uh-- CRANE: --thank you so much for-- WEINBERG: --you asked me-- CRANE: --for sharing your time and your stories. WEINBERG: Thank you. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh423_jk042_weinberg_ohm.xml 2016oh423_jk042_weinberg_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh423_jk042_weinberg_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource David Weinberg, November 10, 2016 Description An account of the resource In this interview, David Weinberg reflects on his involvement in Judaism and the Jewish community throughout his childhood, college years, and adult life. He begins by delving into his family’s background, explaining how his grandparents came to Kentucky and settled in Louisville, where he still lives today. He talks about his father’s role in the community as a kosher butcher, how that carried over into the home, and about his family’s involvement in their synagogue, Keneseth Israel. David discusses his participation at the Jewish Community Center growing up, from attending Hebrew school there to leading youth clubs and youth councils. As the narrative continues, Weinberg recalls times spent at the University of Kentucky, where he was a business student from 1964 to 1968. He talks about his efforts to keep kosher while living on his own; his involvement with Hillel, a Jewish campus organization; and his connections to other Jews living nearby during the time he was at U.K. Weinberg goes on to explain how he met his wife Beverly, his career with General Electric, and how he came to be the CFO of the Jewish Community Federation of Louisville (now the Jewish Community of Louisville). As the interview closes, interviewer Janice Crane asks Weinberg to consider his Jewish identity and its impact on his children’s and grandchildren’s faiths. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh423_jk042 Subject The topic of the resource Genealogy Jewish businesspeople Families. Religion University of Kentucky College students--Social conditions College students--Religious life Jews--Identity. Louisville (Ky.) Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/570ba1d2ebaf08ed31dc0fc1649f138f.jpg f7e5d68e2d2d385aa794822ac61b91c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice Crane Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Bronner Interview Keyword Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.). Immigrants--Kentucky University of Louisville Crohn's Disease Indiana University Jewish businesspeople Family-owned business enterprises. Health Medical care OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh422_jk041 Interview with Mark Bronner, November 10, 2016 2016oh422_jk041 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Genealogy Holidays--Kentucky Religion Families. Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Louisville (Ky.) Childhood Education--Kentucky--Louisville College students--Religious life College students--Social conditions Jews--Identity. Medical education Physicians--Kentucky Hospitals--Administration Hospitals--Kentucky Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. Lexington (Ky.). Immigrants--Kentucky University of Louisville Crohn's Disease Indiana University Jewish businesspeople Family-owned business enterprises. Health Medical care Mark Bronner Janice Crane 1:|13(12)|45(8)|77(8)|94(11)|112(6)|126(4)|153(2)|181(6)|195(8)|219(1)|240(9)|252(7)|271(8)|287(13)|308(15)|327(11)|347(12)|359(10)|378(8)|397(4)|409(9)|432(13)|454(13)|471(1)|485(5)|511(5)|534(12)|555(2)|567(8)|587(11)|606(5)|623(6)|645(8)|661(6)|670(5)|680(12)|691(5)|712(3)|727(5)|740(4)|753(8)|767(10)|785(15)|797(2)|811(3)|824(1)|839(12)|858(10)|876(12)|892(13)|913(6)|931(3)|949(12)|963(6)|974(6)|987(8)|1006(5)|1035(6)|1058(7)|1087(6)|1100(3)|1115(3)|1129(1)|1140(2)|1160(5)|1179(5)|1193(15)|1205(8)|1218(1)|1233(14)|1249(3)|1275(4)|1286(12)|1304(12)|1317(4)|1330(3)|1345(12)|1356(11)|1371(6)|1385(6)|1397(13)|1410(9)|1433(10)|1449(1)|1462(11)|1478(3)|1489(15)|1507(7)|1524(6)|1539(7)|1553(12) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253332984&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 1 Introduction, background, and family history Okay. For official purposes, today is November 10th, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane, and I’m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Dr. Mark Bronner is a long-time resident of Louisville, Kentucky and is a practicing physician. He was born in 1953 at the Louisville Baptist Hospital (which no longer exists) to Robert and Betty Levy Bronner. Robert Bronner worked in real estate while Betty Bronner was a housewife. Mark Bronner married his first wife Anne Banks in 1976, who was born in Louisville. They had a few children together. Bronner has stepchildren from later marrying Susan Sims who was born in Kentucky but also spent time in Indiana. 1953 ; Anne Banks ; Baby ; Beth Bronner ; Betty Levy Bronner ; Children ; Family ; Fathers ; Jewish ; Kentucky ; Louisville Baptist Hospital ; Machatunim ; Mark Bronner ; Physicians ; Real estate ; Robert Bronner ; Stepchildren ; Susan Sims Families. ; Genealogy ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) 164 Family immigrating from Russia And since I know that your maternal grandfather was not only a link between the Jews of Lexington and Louisville... Bronner’s maternal grandfather, Nat Levy, originally immigrated from Russia in his teens with his family. Bronner doesn’t know exactly where in Russia he immigrated from but he states that it’s in the “bread basket area.” According to Bronner, Nat shared stories that he acted as a rebel during the Bolshevik Revolution. His grandfather, Nat, and his family supposedly fled Russia to escape soldiers, and they accidentally changed their name from “Vershovsky” to “Levy” when entering the U.S. and settling in Louisville. Nat Levy then married Irma Wolf. Bolshevik Revolution ; Family names ; Grandfathers ; Irma Wolf ; Levy family ; Maternal grandfathers ; Nat Levy ; Rebels ; Russia ; Soldiers ; Vershovsky family Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) https://www.britannica.com/event/Russian-Revolution-of-1917 Link provides more background information on the Bolshevik Revolution. 433 Paternal grandparents We are also going to talk some about your paternal grandparents and their Louisville connections. Bronner’s paternal grandparents, Marvin and Hannah, were originally from New York. They lived in Louisville for some time but then permanently settled in Miami, Florida for Marvin’s real estate business. Bronner does not know much about Marvin because he died when Bronner’s father, Robert, was in his teens. Hannah was a housewife who was very social. Bronner explains that he does not know much about his paternal grandparents as his father, Robert, did not share many stories. Bronner family ; Florida ; Hannah Bronner ; Housewives ; Marvin Bronner ; New York ; Paternal grandparents ; Real estate ; Robert Bronner Families. ; Genealogy ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Miami (Fla.) 25.76, -80.19 17 Miami (Fla.) http://floridahistory.org/landboom.htm Link provides information on real estate in Miami, Florida in the 1920s. 568 Bronner's siblings, children, and grandchildren I know that you have two siblings. Uh, what are their names and ages relative to you? Bronner describes his siblings, their ages, and occupations. He talks about his own children and the grandchild he is expecting soon. Barbara Bronner ; Beth ; Children ; Family ; Grandchildren ; Granddaughters ; Janice Crane ; John Wilhoit ; Johnathon Bronner ; Mark Bronner ; Meredith ; Real estate ; Social work ; Step-children ; Steve Bronner ; Susan Wilhoit Families. ; Genealogy 17 767 Family arriving in Louisville / family real estate business Let’s talk some about how your family ended up in Louisville. Bronner’s father, Robert, was born in Miami Beach, Florida, and Bronner’s mother was born in Louisville. They were married in 1951, and moved to Louisville because of job opportunities. Robert went to work for Nat Levy (Mark Bronner’s grandfather and Betty Levy’s father) in real estate. Bronner does not remember much about the business, but it was mostly managing and selling real estate. The business was focused around small properties and some commercial sites such as Preston Highway and Glenview Shopping Center. Bronner’s father started building subdivisions in Louisville when his father got involved in the family business. Some subdivisions include: Blue Lick, Dundee Estates, and houses on Dale Hollow Lake. Bronner’s brother, Steve, got involved in the business after Steve graduated, and the business modernized over time. 1951 ; Betty Bronner ; Blue Lick ; Commercial real estate ; Dale Hollow Lake ; Dundee Estates ; Glenview Shopping Center ; Job opportunities ; Mark Bronner ; Miami Beach (Fla.) ; Nat Levy ; Preston Highway ; Real estate ; Robert Bronner ; Steve Bronner ; Subdivisions Families. ; Family-owned business enterprises. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.)--Buildings, structures, etc. 38.29, -85.63 17 Glenview Pointe Shopping Center, Louisville (Ky.) 1175 Grandfather and mother How old were you when your da--when your grandfather died? Nat Levy, Bronner’s grandfather, passed away in early July 1980. Bronner remembers Nat being a fair, big guy that would support the losing person or team in a situation. Levy spent time watching basketball games and riding horses. When Steve and Mark Bronner were growing up, Levy would take them to Miles Park to ride horses. He was also very involved in real estate. Betty Jane Bronner, previously Betty Levy before marriage, was Nat’s daughter and Mark’s mother. Her nickname became “Gigi” after Mark Bronner’s son nicknamed her. She took care of raising the family and participated in charity work through the JCC (Jewish Community Center). Betty Jane Bronner ; Betty Levy ; Bronner family ; Charity ; Family ; Gigi ; Grandfathers ; Horses ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; July, 1980 ; Levy family ; Miles Park ; Nat Levy ; Real estate ; Steve Bronner Families. ; Genealogy ; Volunteers 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) 1453 Family stories--Chicken train, Al Capone, Bronner family You know, one of my favorite Jewish Lexington stories is about the three Hyman Levys, uh, that once lived there. The Bronner family has a few interesting stories concerning the three Lexington Hyman Levys. The three Hymans were Little Hyman, Shoe Hyman, and Chicken Hyman. Chicken Hyman is Mark Bronner’s great-grandfather. Chicken Hyman got his name as he rode a train full of chickens to a market in Chicago. Crane restates that Levy was not Bronner’s mother’s original name. It was Vershovsky, but it was accidentally changed by Nat as he was entering the U.S. Nat heard the individual in front of him say &quot ; Vershovsky&quot ; when entering the U.S., so Nat thought Vershovsky was the password to enter the country. As a result, Nat's last name accidentally got changed. Mark Bronner’s father also explained that Robert, Mark's father, had a connection to Al Capone. The story was that Robert and all of his brothers would get on a boat to go to the Biscayne Island, on Venetian Causeway, that Al Capone and his son lived on every once in a while. Al Capone ; Bronner family ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Chicken Hyman ; Family ; Fathers ; Jewish ; Levy ; Little Hyman ; Nat Levy ; Shoe Hyman ; Stories ; Three Hyman Levys ; Trains ; Vershovsky Families. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Lexington (Ky.). 25.790556, -80.165 17 Venetian Causeway, where Al Capone lived. https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/catalog/xt7qnk36431j Link provides access to Erle Levy's oral history interview where he explains his version of the Chicken Hyman story. 1748 Other Bronner family members I’ve learned from other interviews that before your father moved to Louisville, there were other Bronner family members that were living here. Before Mark Bronner’s father moved to Louisville, there were other Bronner family members who were living in Louisville. Augusta Fox Bronner is one of these members. Augusta lived from 1881 to 1966 and is the daughter of Hannah Fox and Gustav Bronner. Augusta was a clinical psychologist who specialized in juvenile delinquency. She taught at a Normal School for women in Louisville and taught at Yale. She is Mark Bronner’s aunt, but Bronner has no memory of her. 1881 ; 1966 ; Augusta Fox Bronner ; Aunts ; Bronner family ; Clinical psychologists ; Family ; Gustav Bronner ; Hannah Fox ; Juvenile delinquency ; Normal School ; Yale University Families. ; Genealogy ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.feministvoices.com/augusta-fox-bronner/ Link provides a short biography of Augusta Fox Bronner 1893 Dr. Herbert Bronner--Medical specialties And what about Dr. Herbert Bronner? Dr. Herbert Bronner is another Bronner in Kentucky. He was the staff president at the Louisville Jewish Hospital at one point in time. Mark Bronner knows that he was an important figure of the medical community at one time, but does not know many details. Dr. Herbert Bronner specialized in OB when specialization was still developing as most physicians were family practitioners. Bronner family ; Doctors ; Dr. Herbert Bronner ; Family practitioners ; Jewish Hospital ; Medical community ; Obstetrician ; Specialization ; Staff presidents Families. ; Genealogy ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Physicians 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2012 Mark Bronner's Jewish childhood Okay. Your childhood. What was Judaism like in your family growing up? Bronner states that he grew up in a Reform Jewish household, and he attended Brit Shalom. Brit Shalom no longer exists as it merged with Temple Adath Israel and became a Reform synagogue. Bronner explains that this synagogue, of Brit Shalom and Adath Israel congregations, then split again to become Temple Shalom. He attended the temple during the high holidays, for Sunday school, and on certain Jewish holidays. Bronner describes his mother being the more religious parent whereas his father was more relaxed and Reform. However, Bronner believes that his father was more religious than he let on to be. From his father, Bronner gained a better understanding of his Jewish identity. Bronner also explains that for holidays the family got together and held family events. Brit Shalom ; Bronner family ; Family ; Fathers ; High holidays ; Jewish ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish identity ; Mothers ; Reform Judaism ; Religious ; Sunday school ; Synagogues ; Temple Shalom ; Temples Childhood ; Families. ; Holidays--Kentucky ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.14, -85.45 17 Brit Shalom (now The Temple) in Louisville (Ky.) http://www.thetemplelouky.org/our-history Link provides information on the history of how Brit Shalom changed over the years. 2345 Family's relationship to Judaism How were your parents’, uh, relationship to Judaism different than their parents’ relationship to Judaism? Bronner’s father had Jewish unique training as he was recruited and went to a Catholic school for athletics. Bronner’s uncles have had &quot ; Jewish training.&quot ; Bronner’s maternal grandmother was more liberal than his maternal grandfather. His grandfather was more religious as he went to a Reform temple. Bronner doesn’t discuss his mother. Bronner, Steve (his brother), and Barbara (his sister) participated in the Temple, but Barbara was not eligible to be bat mitzvahed. Bronner explains that as a Jewish kid, you just join a Jewish club that gives you more exposure to the culture and other Jewish kids. Athletics ; Barbara Bronner ; Bat mitzvahs ; Bronner family ; Catholic schools ; Fathers ; Grandfathers ; Grandmothers ; Jewish ; Jewish clubs ; Maternal ; Reform Judaism ; Religious ; Steve Bronner ; Temples ; Training ; Uncles ; Unique training Childhood ; Families. ; Holidays--Kentucky ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.jewfaq.org/barmitz.htm Link gives information on Bat Mitzvah (for girls) and Bar Mitzvah (for boys). 2497 Jewish clubs and community in 1960s Louisville What were the clubs like? Bronner discusses the Jewish clubs of the Jewish Community Center and the Jewish community while he was growing up. He explains that some clubs were explicitly religious where others were more subtly religious. Bronner gravitated towards the more popular club, but states that he doesn’t know if he would join it again because he knows more about his Jewish culture today. He describes some clubs being driven by athletics and then a social, religious component. Bronner was in a club called “Pi Tau Pi.” He explains that certain clubs invited specific individuals to join their club. Bronner explains that being in a club kept him out of trouble as it took up his time. He also explains that he made some good friends through the clubs he was involved in, but they grew up and moved away. Bronner also explains that he grew up in a neighborhood with a strong Jewish population, but there was a good mix of other cultures and religions, so there weren’t any negative reactions towards Judaism. Athletics ; Fraternities ; Friends ; Jewish clubs ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Jewish population ; Neighborhoods ; Pi Tau Pi ; Religious ; Socializing Childhood ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.23, -85.65 17 Louisville Jewish Community Center http://collections.americanjewisharchives.org/ms/ms0497/ms0497.html Link provides archive records of the Pi Tau Pi fraternity that Bronner was involved with. Today, the fraternity no longer exists. 2931 Bronner's early education What about schools when you were a child, and other Jewish kids in the schools that you went to? Which schools did you go to? Bronner attended Belknap Elementary School which went through sixth grade, and attended Highland Junior High which was seventh, eighth, and ninth grade. Then he attended Atherton High School. All the schools he attended had a mix of kids from different backgrounds, religions, and cultures, but Bronner did have a lot of Jewish friends growing up. He states that Jewish clubs through the JCC have changed in that they still existed as Bronner’s kids were growing up, but they weren’t a priority. Additionally, when Bronner was in high school, social, non-religious clubs did not exist. Atherton High School ; Belknap Elementary School ; Eighth grade ; Highland Junior High School ; Jewish clubs ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Kids ; Ninth grade ; Seventh grade ; Sixth grade ; Socializing Childhood ; Education--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.12, -85.41 17 Atherton High School, Louisville (Ky.) 3039 College experience at Indiana University (IU) and University of Louisville (U of L) So where did you go to college? Bronner describes his college experience. He entered college as a science major on a pre-med track. He attended Indiana University (IU) in 1971, but dropped out after three years because he became ill with Crohn's Disease and had to be hospitalized. He went through a process of taking a few courses for a semester, getting sick and being hospitalized. Then he temporarily got better and went back for a semester and got sick again. Ultimately, after finally getting better, Bronner attended and graduated from the University of Louisville (U of L). He was originally supposed to graduate in 1975, but because of his illness, he graduated in 1976. While in college at IU, he joined the Zeta Beta Tau Jewish fraternity during his second semester and lived in the house. He described the fraternity as a fun place, that was subtly religious, more social, and was full of bright guys. There were many people that were in the fraternity that weren’t Jewish. Bronner’s first roommate at ZBT was Jewish, and he taught Bronner a lot about Hillel and about Judaism. Bronner hears about the fraternity members and sees them on social media every once in a while. Bronner was not involved in Hillel in college, although he was invited multiple times. However, Bronner’s social life at IU consisted of partying, hanging out with his friends, and dating. He states that he had a great social life and that IU is a great place to attend. Both Bronner’s brother and sister attended and graduated from IU. After leaving IU, Bronner graduated from U of L and attended medical school. 1971 ; 1975 ; 1976 ; Brothers ; Colleges ; Fraternities ; Graduated ; Hillel ; Hospitalized ; Illness ; Indiana University (IU) ; Jewish ; Pre-med ; Religious ; Science ; Semesters ; Sickness ; Sisters ; Social life ; University of Louisville (U of L) ; Zeta Beta Tau (ZBT) College environment ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Greek letter societies. ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Universities and colleges. 39.18, -86.51 17 Indiana University http://www.zbt.org/ Link provides more information about the Jewish fraternity, Zeta Beta Tau. 3430 Medical school and residency And how was that transition? Bronner explains his medical school and residency life. After graduating from the University of Louisville, Bronner got married and then attended medical school at the University of South Carolina. While in medical school, Bronner did have a few close Jewish friends. He states that he didn’t seek these friends, that it just randomly happened. He’s still friends with a couple of these people. There were Jewish medical staff at the University, and they didn’t show any favoritism towards certain groups. After graduating from medical school in 1980, he stayed in South Carolina for his internship, residency, and fellowship. Bronner states that he stayed in South Carolina for an additional five years. 1980 ; Fellowship ; Friends ; Internships ; Jewish ; Married ; Medical schools ; Medical staff ; Medical University of South Carolina ; Residency ; University of Louisville College environment ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; Medical education ; Physicians ; Religion ; Universities and colleges. 32.78, -79.95 17 Medical University of South Carolina http://academicdepartments.musc.edu/musc/ Link directs to a website providing more information on the Medical University of South Carolina. 3574 Raising a Jewish family in 1980s Louisville How old were your children when you moved back to Louisville? I know they were--were they all born in South Carolina? Bronner discusses his children. All of his children were born in South Carolina, and then he and his family moved back to Louisville. He states that while his children were growing up, the whole family got together for the holidays. Bronner and his children attend Temple Shalom where Bronner’s mother was going because it was a family affair. Bronner’s family was his biggest support when he was raising his kids Jewish. Bronner explains that his children attended Keneseth Israel Preschool, a “Conservadox” school, and made a stronger connection to Judaism. The JCC had declined some at this time, so his children weren’t that involved in clubs. Bronner discusses that his children made a few lifelong friends while attending school. Clubs ; Family ; Friends ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Kids ; Schools ; South Carolina ; Temple Shalom (Louisville, synagogue) ; Temples Childhood ; Education--Kentucky--Louisville ; Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) 3962 Changes in Louisville's Jewish community You know, you have a long history with the Louisville Jewish community. Um, what are some of your thoughts on how the Jewish community has changed over your lifetime? Bronner discusses changes that he’s seen in the Jewish community. He explains that children have moved farther away from the rest of their family, and intermarriage became more popular. He also states that Louisville’s Jewish mayor, Jerry Abramson, was involved in both the Jewish and non-Jewish community. The Louisville community had changed in the sense that there was less antisemitism towards Jews. Bronner states that he considers himself Jewish-American. He also further explains the deceitful actions that Israel of Zionism committed as he was growing up. Anti-Semitism ; Community ; Intermarriage ; Israel of Zionism ; Jerry Abramson ; Jewish ; Jewish-American ; Mayors Discrimination. ; Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/develjewcomm.htm This link directs user to an article that explains a few changes in Jewish communities in North America. 4261 Bronner’s medical career Let’s talk about your work as a physician. What area of medicine is your specialty? Bronner discusses his medical career. He specializes in gastroenterology, and started private practice in 1985. At one point, he was the Director of the Kentucky chapter of the Crohn’s and Colitis Foundation of America. Bronner shares the story of his brother getting diagnosed with Crohn’s Disease and his own story of getting Crohn’s Disease. Bronner explains that he wanted to find a charity that he had a personal connection to, and therefore he helped start a new Kentucky chapter of the Gastrointestinal Research Foundation that is based in Chicago. However, the Kentucky chapter closed due to too many reorganizations. 1985 ; Brothers ; Chicago (Ill.) ; Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America ; Crohn's Disease ; Diagnosed ; Directors ; Doctors ; Gastroenterology ; Gastrointestinal Research Foundation ; Kentucky chapter ; Medical ; Private practice Families. ; Health ; Medical care ; Physicians 41.89, -87.63 17 Gastrointestinal Research Foundation based in Chicago (Ill.) http://www.crohnscolitisfoundation.org/about/?referrer=https://www.google.com/ Link provides information about the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America. 4561 Louisville Jewish Hospital I read an article online that stated that the Louisville Jewish Hospital was established in 1903, in part to provide facilities for Jewish doctors who were denied staff privileges elsewhere, and whose patients might prefer treatment in a Jewish environment. Bronner discusses the Louisville Jewish Hospital. Bronner states that he was not involved in the original Jewish Hospital. He spent the majority of his career working at the newer Jewish Hospital. He explains how the hospital merged with the University of Louisville but failed and ultimately changed into KentuckyOne Hospital. He explains how some of his patients at the Jewish Hospital were not treated by him at some points, and they were treated by other physicians. This situation occurred to other physicians at the hospital, and was one of the reasons that the hospital shut down. He discusses the changes that caused the hospital reputation to worsen, such as better doctors going elsewhere. Careers ; Jewish Hospital ; KentuckyOne ; Patients ; University of Louisville Families. ; Health ; Hospitals--Administration ; Hospitals--Kentucky ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care ; Physicians ; Physicians--Kentucky 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.kentuckyonehealth.org/jewish-hospital Link takes user to KentuckyOne Hospital and provides brief information about the hospital. 4964 Practicing as a Jewish physician And so, what hospital do you practice out of, or do you utilize? Bronner explains that he practices out of Norton Audubon Hospital. He explains that he didn’t really have a problem practicing as a Jewish physician. He didn’t experience any unfriendly relationships, and he states that it might be due to his specialty because there weren’t very many gastroenterologists. He explains that he has practiced at Jewish hospitals, Catholic hospitals, and non-sectarian hospitals. Bronner explains that being Jewish influenced him to work at a Jewish hospital, but his religion hasn’t influenced him to become a doctor ; he just wants to help people get better. Catholic ; Doctors ; Gastroenterology ; Hospitals ; Jewish ; Jewish physicians ; Non-sectarian ; Norton Audubon Hospital ; Physician ; Relationships ; Specialty Health ; Hospitals--Administration ; Hospitals--Kentucky ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Medical care ; Physicians--Kentucky ; Religion 38.22, -85.72 17 Norton Audubon Hospital 5313 Self-reflection and Jewish identity We talked a lot about different things, but I want to make sure that I’ve given you every opportunity to share the stories that you hold dear. Looking back, Judaism influenced Mark Bronner to work in Jewish Hospital when he first started practicing as a physician. He wishes he joined multiple Jewish clubs instead of just one in order to gain more exposure to Judaism. He thinks his parents should have pushed him to get more involved in certain parts of Judaism. He wishes he had a bar mitzvah--not the party, but the religious aspect. Bat mitzvahs ; Clubs ; Jewish ; Jewish Hospital ; Judaism ; Parents ; Physicians ; Religious Childhood ; Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.328, -85.764 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1912609/jewish/Bar-Mitzvah-101.htm Link provides an overview about bar mitzvahs. interview Mark Bronner discusses in detail his family genealogy, from his ancestors in Russia who immigrated to the U.S. and settled in Louisville, to later members of his family who held prominent positions in Louisville. He talks about his own childhood in Louisville and how it affected his Jewish identity. He talks about his education, his participation in Jewish clubs and social activities, and how the community has changed since his childhood. He discusses his college experience, medical school, his work as a gastroenterologist, and Louisville Jewish Hospital. CRANE: Okay. For official purposes, today is November 10, 2016, and my name is Janice Crane, and I&#039 ; m part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I&#039 ; m honored and delighted to be here today with Dr. Mark Bronner, a long-time resident of Louisville, a practicing physician, and someone who has a strong family presence in Kentucky, linking Jews in Lexington with Jews in Louisville. Although I&#039 ; ve only known Mark for four years, I have enjoyed every minute I have spent with him. We are family. We are machatunim. He is the father of my wonderful daughter-in-law, Beth, and soon, God willing, we will share the role of grandparents to a sweet baby girl. I look forward to hearing the personal stories he has to share, and I&#039 ; m eager to learn more about his family history, and his personal and professional life in Louisville as a Jewish physician. So let&#039 ; s begin by establishing some general information. What was your full name at birth? BRONNER: Mark Howard Bronner. CRANE: When and where were you born? BRONNER: Louisville, Baptist Hospital--the old Baptist hospital which does not exist anymore. CRANE: And when? BRONNER: 1953. CRANE: And what is your wife&#039 ; s full name, and where was she born? BRONNER: My wife is--is--it depends on which middle name we&#039 ; re using. Susan--well, it&#039 ; s Susan Sims Bronner is, uh, I guess, what she uses. CRANE: Sims? BRONNER: Sims, uh-huh, which is her maiden name, and she was born in, uh, Kentucky, even though she lived most of her life in Indiana, before moving back to Kentucky. CRANE: Okay. I know that you were married prior to Susan, to a woman who is the mother of your children, one of which, as I have already said, is my daughter-in-law. What is your first wife&#039 ; s name, and where was she born? BRONNER: Uh, Anne Banks, and she was born in Louisville. CRANE: I know that neither of your parents are alive, but for the record, and just because they are clearly a large part of your history and your stories, what are their names, and what where they--where were they born? BRONNER: My mom was, uh, Betty Jane, or Betty Levy Bronner. My dad--Levy being her maiden name--my dad was born, uh, as Bob Bronner, no middle name, and he was born in Miami Beach. CRANE: Was he a Bob or a Robert? BRONNER: He was Robert, but everyone called him Bob. CRANE: Okay, and he was born in? BRONNER: Miami Beach--one of the--one of the few. CRANE: What were your parents&#039 ; occupations? BRONNER: My--my mom was a housewife, and my dad was in real estate. CRANE: And did your mother work outside the home at all, or help in the business? BRONNER: She-- CRANE: And did your mother work outside the home at all, or help in the business? BRONNER: She--she did not. CRANE: Okay. And since I know that your maternal grandfather was not only a link between the Jews of Lexington and Louisville, but owned and operated, to some degree, the family business before your dad was part of it, what was his name and where was he from? BRONNER: His name is Nat Levy, and he, um--his family originally emigrated from Russia. He came here when he was in his teens, and, uh--they, uh--most of the family ended up in Lexington, and uh so where he&#039 ; s from is, I guess, Russia. CRANE: Do you know where in Russia? BRONNER: We&#039 ; ve heard different stories as far as exactly where they&#039 ; re from, so I couldn&#039 ; t tell you, but--I could not tell you for sure. CRANE: What are the possible choices there? BRONNER: I think he was, uh from the--more of the, uh--what&#039 ; s the bread basket area. Um, I&#039 ; m not sure if, uh--honestly, we&#039 ; ve heard so many different stories, uh, about the location, and, um, he really didn&#039 ; t want to talk about it much. He would tell stories about what he did during the Bolshevik revolution, which is why they fled from Russia, meaning, he was a rebel, he would blow up bridges, and, they would have to go in--yeah, they would have to go steal chickens so they had some food. Uh, he told some really, some interesting stories, but he wouldn&#039 ; t really talk much about where they were from. CRANE: What were some of the stories? BRONNER: Yeah--they would go and they would blow up bridges, um-- CRANE: --who&#039 ; s they?-- BRONNER: He and his brothers. They would--they would--and other people, in I guess what would be an underground, uh, but they would go out in the morning, and they would--somebody would give them something to blow something up, and they had a target, and they would go and they&#039 ; d blow it up. And, uh, they didn&#039 ; t directly kill people. They were--they were just basically trying to slow people down, and um, there was a story--an interesting story, his sister, who, um, who, uh, apparently was a very pretty girl, and uh, some--the family was very wealthy in Russia, and, uh, there were some soldiers who came--I&#039 ; m not sure exactly why, but they came and they were going to take the family away, and she came out, and--and basically talked them into coming back later in the day, and she said, &quot ; If you would come back later, you can all have me.&quot ; And so she talked them into leaving and coming back later, which led to the family packing everything up that they could take in their hand, and they left, and that was the beginning of their emigration to the United States. So, and my--my-- great-grandfather got passage on a fishing boat, and--which was carrying some dead bodies, uh, across--yeah, I mean, it was bad times. He actually hid out underneath some dead bodies while he--while he got out of Russia. Then he made passage to the US and into Ellis Island, and the name--the family name was Vershvovsky-- CRANE: Would you spell that? Or, give it your best shot. BRONNER: It&#039 ; s V-h-e-r-s-h-v-e-s-s-k-y, uh, or V-e-r-s--if I had it in writ--I have it in writing somewhere, but, are you going to make me write it down? I&#039 ; ll find it for you, how&#039 ; s that? CRANE: Okay. BRONNER: But the family name was Vershvovsky, and when my great-grandfather got to Ellis Island, and spoke not a lick of English, and they went apparently through a line, and they were asking them for their names, and the fellow in front of them said Levy. He thought it was the password to get into the country, so when they asked him his name, he didn&#039 ; t understand anything, but he thought he now knew the password, so he said Levy, and that became the family name. So, that&#039 ; s how they became Levys, and then when he got established, then he got the rest of the family there. CRANE: That&#039 ; s a great story. Was he the only one on the boat? BRONNER: Uh--that I don&#039 ; t know. I never heard that part of the story. He was the only one alive, as far as I know, yeah, aside from the people who were--who were--who were--who were sailing the boat. CRANE: Okay. So, what was his wife&#039 ; s name, and where was she from? BRONNER: You&#039 ; re asking--you&#039 ; re asking me things--I never knew her. You may know--know more than I do, as a historian. CRANE: Uh Nat&#039 ; s wife. BRONNER: Oh, Nat&#039 ; s wife--oh, that--oh, you see, I thought you were going back another generation. CRANE: No, no. BRONNER: Um, Nat&#039 ; s wife was Irma, Irma Wolf, and she was, uh--she was from the Louisville area. CRANE: She was born here in Louisville? BRONNER: I think she was born here in Louisville. CRANE: Okay. We are also going to talk some about your paternal grandparents and their Louisville connections, so for the record, what were their names and where were they from? BRONNER: Gosh. So, they--they originally were from New York, and, uh, they, uh--they uh --the one that we know the least about was Marvin, and, um, and he was, uh--I think he originally was from New York. They spent time here in Louisville. They ultimately moved to Miami, where he was in business for a number of years. CRANE: Marvin was your grandfather? BRONNER: Was my--was my--was my-- CRANE: --great-- BRONNER: Was my--was my paternal grandfather, who I never knew, because he passed away when my father was in his early teens, twelve or thirteen, and then his wife was Hannah, and, uh, I obviously never met her, because she--she--my mom knew her, so I&#039 ; m not sure how old she was when she passed away, but I--but I-- never knew any grandparents on that side of the family. CRANE: Do you know what their occupations were? BRONNER: I think,uh, my grandmother on that side, uh, was a--was a -- housewife. I heard stories about her doing a lot of entertaining. Uh, I don&#039 ; t know if that was business related, or just that she was--uh, that she was social. And, my grandfather on that side was in several businesses. He was in the furniture business, and, uh, they apparently had the biggest furniture business in, uh, Miami, because Miami Beach was just a place you went to live so you didn&#039 ; t have to be in Miami, and, uh he, uh--he was also in the real estate business, which I didn&#039 ; t know until a couple of years ago, but he built a couple of things, and, um, and a number of other businesses along the way. CRANE: Did your father talk much about them? BRONNER: Very little. It was hard to get a story. My mom would tell us some stories, but, um, when I attempted to hear stories about my grandfather, at least, on that side, he was not--he would clam up. So, I know the little bit I&#039 ; ve heard, but it&#039 ; s very little, and nothing from him. CRANE: I know that you have two siblings. Uh, what are their names and ages relative to you? BRONNER: I have, uh, Steven Robert Bronner, and he&#039 ; s two years younger. I have, uh, Hannah Barbara Bronner, and she goes by Barbara, and she&#039 ; s seven years younger, although I tell everybody she&#039 ; s older. She&#039 ; s not happy-- CRANE: --I&#039 ; m sure she loves that one. BRONNER: Yeah, she&#039 ; s not happy with me when I do that. CRANE: (laughs) And what are their occupations? BRONNER: My, um, my sister has a degree in social work, although she&#039 ; s not, uh--she took some time off to raise her family, so she&#039 ; s not been working for a couple of years. My brother is in real estate. He went into business with my father. CRANE: And what are the names and ages of your children, your stepchildren, and your grandchildren-- BRONNER: --oh, you&#039 ; re going to be-- CRANE: --and this is a test. BRONNER: Yeah, I&#039 ; m sure. CRANE: Okay. BRONNER: So, my, uh--the oldest is John Wilhoit, who&#039 ; s my stepson, and he&#039 ; s, uh, thirty-six. Uh, my son Jonathan Bronner is about nine months younger. Uh, we then go down to Susan Wilhoit, my stepdaughter, who--they&#039 ; re step--they&#039 ; re stepchildren, so as long as I get the oldest one, I&#039 ; m good. Um, and so, Susan is, uh, thirty-five, thirty-four, almost thirty--we&#039 ; re getting near March, so she&#039 ; ll be thirty-five then. And, uh, Meredith is a year younger, thirty-three. She&#039 ; s the one I can use, because I know she&#039 ; s exactly thirty years younger than I am. And then Beth is, uh, thirty-one--thirty-one, thirty-two. Yeah, uh, he&#039 ; s--Beth is a September baby, so sometime thirty-one, sometime thirty-two. September, she got to be thirty-two. Did I get them all? I think I got them all. CRANE: How about the grandchildren? BRONNER: The grandchildren. Well, there&#039 ; s seven grandchildren, and I have help over here with ages. Maya is eleven going on fifteen, good, and that&#039 ; s Maya Wilhoit, and then Isaac is fifteen going on really being nine? Well, nine going on twenty, I think, now. And then, uh, so those are the two oldest, and, uh, then if we get to Jonathan&#039 ; s children, we have Arianna, who is--God, this is really bad, you didn&#039 ; t prepare me for ages. Ari is five--yeah, Susan&#039 ; s going, &quot ; Five, yeah.&quot ; Five going on fourteen. Her little brother is Levy, who is several years younger. He&#039 ; s three and a half, or so. And then we have Meredith and David&#039 ; s children. We have precocious Violet who&#039 ; s three, going on twenty-one, and then we have her younger sister, who is under six months, going on, gosh, I don&#039 ; t know--she&#039 ; s a handful. And then we have, uh, the almost, uh, uh--to arrive, youngest baby of Beth&#039 ; s, whose name I can&#039 ; t get out yet. CRANE: That&#039 ; s okay. You did a good job there, Mark. BRONNER: Well, thank you. (laughs) Usually I have to look at it in writing, because there&#039 ; s so many. CRANE: And they&#039 ; re all darling. BRONNER: They are. CRANE: Let&#039 ; s talk some about how your family ended up in Louisville. I&#039 ; ve listened to several previously recorded interviews of your mother and your father done into connection with the Louisville Jewish Community Center, and I&#039 ; ve learned that your mother was born in Louisville, your father was born in Miami Beach, as you said, um, and where they were married, and then they moved into Louisville in 1951. What can you tell us about why they moved here, and why they left Miami? BRONNER: Well, the main reason they moved here was, uh, was primarily because of job opportunity, which was, my grandfather, who said--what frequently happens, kids come back and go to work for me. And, so they basically, uh, they basically moved here for a job opportunity at that time, and, uh, I wasn&#039 ; t--even though I tell people that, that--that they had to get married, it was a shotgun wedding, I guess it wasn&#039 ; t, so--uh, but I did show up a couple years after they moved back here, so, uh--so primarily it was--it was opportunity, at that point. That&#039 ; s why they left, that&#039 ; s why they came here. CRANE: And this was your grandfather&#039 ; s busi-- BRONNER: This was my grandfather&#039 ; s business. He was in real estate. CRANE: And what did he do? What was that business like? BRONNER: Well, obviously I wasn&#039 ; t there, but, um, mostly he-- CRANE: --you were almost there-- BRONNER: I was almost there, but I don&#039 ; t remember much of it. Uh, he would just--he would buy real estate, and, uh, manage real estate, sell real estate. He was involved in some home--not really home building. Uh,He, uh, he did have--he managed some small buildings, but I think mostly it was, he would, uh, he would buy some property, uh, build some shopping centers, and he would--he was involved in--it was more commercial than anything else at that time. It really wasn&#039 ; t, uh, um, uh, building subdivisions until my dad came, and then my dad wanted to be in the business, but he wanted to do something different, and so he started, uh, he started building, uh, personal homes, and subdivisions. CRANE: What are some of the commercial sites that your grandfather was involved in in Louisville? BRONNER: Um, the one is at Preston Highway--I&#039 ; m trying to think of the name of the shopping center. Um, Glenview. Glenview Shopping Center. That&#039 ; s the one I remember, because he used to take us out there, um--there was a donut place. They used to go out there every week, and buy donuts, and bring them back, or, he&#039 ; d take us out there and let us pick our own donuts. CRANE: And what did you get? BRONNER: What did we get? Oh, it was Dunkin Donut--donut sticks. They were the thing then. CRANE: And, as far as the subdivisions, when your father started doing it, he built subdivisions. Where in Louisville? BRONNER: Uh, went up Preston Highway, he built--I think it was called Blue Lick, uh, which were smaller homes, um--prices then were absurd, because I know he built our home that we lived in, um, for--for fifty years or more--he built that house. I think it cost $5,000, uh, at the time he built it, uh, but again, he was building it himself, you know, with his contractors. He was building subdivisions. Uh, he built houses out at Dale Hollow Lake, uh, when they were first building the lake. Um, he bought, uh--he built, uh, Dundee Estates, uh, developed one of those, uh, with my uncle Dick for a while, who had moved here briefly, um, and then, uh, he, uh, bought the Ross Todd estate with some partners, and he built, uh--he built, uh, private homes there, and then they had a, a real estate difficulty with builders--they were trying to unionize, and he finally became frustrated, and so he started building, uh, apartments, which is what he did basically the rest of his career. CRANE: When you say your uncle Dick, was his name Richard? BRONNER: Richard, right. CRANE: Richard --, okay. And where is--and he passed away as well? BRONNER: He did. Yeah. CRANE: And he was a business partner of your-- BRONNER: He was a business partner, after he--he, uh--my uncle Dick did a lot of different things. Very interestingly, he was in the Dakotas, uh, trying to get in oil, and, uh, they were trying to--he had a lot of shale oil leases, and they--they thought they could develop that, and, it was not, uh--it was not something they were able to do very effectively at that time, so he had all kinds of, uh, of mineral rights, but it wasn&#039 ; t something they could mine very effectively, so he came back to Kentucky briefly. I think it was about &#039 ; 55, because his, uh, his son, uh, his son Rick was, I think--I&#039 ; ve seen pictures of--of Rick at about a year old, and obviously, I was about two, so in that timeframe, he was here briefly, and he was here for several years. Um, and I know they were--they were working together, building part of Dundee Estates. They were looking at, uh, the--the funny story of the two of them, and there were many, was, they were both looking at construction sites, coming different directions, and they ran into each other, head-on--very slow, but head-on. CRANE: In vehicles? BRONNER: In vehicles, yeah. And, to hear the two of them scream at each other would have been funny. I was too young, but I&#039 ; ve heard the story many times. CRANE: What happened to the business? BRONNER: Um, the business developed into, uh, numerous apartment projects, and, uh, Steve came into--my brother Steve came into the business, gosh, after he graduated from college, he went straight there, so that would have been, oh, &#039 ; 77 or thereabouts? And he went into business with dad, and, uh, they developed several other properties, and the business carries on today. CRANE: And how is the business--besides ownership--changed over time? BRONNER: Well, obviously, I think, things have modernized somewhat, because we have computers today, as opposed to--as opposed to, people used to come in and pay their rent, uh, in cash as opposed to--as opposed to check and bank check, and, um, I think, um, it was, um--well, my memory is, my grandfather going in and pulling the filters out of the furnaces, and washing them by hand himself, and then drying them outside and putting them back in. So, it was the Russian, uh, frugality, and then moving on to more practical things over time. Uh, and obviously we wouldn&#039 ; t try and do that nowadays. CRANE: How old were you when your grandfather died? BRONNER: Let&#039 ; s see. I was, uh--I was a medical student. It was--it would have been 197--well, actually, I had just graduated medical school. It was, uh--it would have been early July, 1980. I was born in &#039 ; 53. CRANE: So what do you remember about him? BRONNER: My grandfather? CRANE: Yeah. BRONNER: Oh, lots, yeah. Great guy, um, he--they lived several blocks away. They showed up every night, uh, um, an hour or so after dinner for a visit, and, uh, so, and, uh, so frequently we were still having dinner when they&#039 ; d show up for a visit. He, uh, was, um, was a--a great big guy who was very fair. We&#039 ; d sit and watch basketball games when they were on. He was always for the underdog. He&#039 ; d be for--he&#039 ; d be for UK [University of Kentucky] until UK was way ahead, and then he&#039 ; d be for the underdog. And, he&#039 ; d cheer for the underdog, or he&#039 ; d be for U of L [University of Louisville], until U of L was ahead--he&#039 ; d be for the underdog, and we would get all, &quot ; No, you don&#039 ; t want them to catch up,&quot ; but he always wanted them to catch up. He thought it was fun for--to see some--to see a fair contest. He loved the horses. He went to Miles Park, uh, which doesn&#039 ; t, uh, exist anymore, and he would take Steve and I to Miles Park, he would sit us in a chair, he said, &quot ; What do you want to bet on?&quot ; And, he&#039 ; d say, &quot ; Now, stay there and I&#039 ; ll be back,&quot ; which was, uh, you know, the times where it was safe to do that, or at least presumed to be safe. You&#039 ; d never do that today. And, he&#039 ; d come back after the race was over and he&#039 ; d say--he&#039 ; d pull out two tickets, he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m sorry you lost,&quot ; he&#039 ; d say--and he&#039 ; d pull out about four more, and say, &quot ; But I didn&#039 ; t.&quot ; And, so we went numerous times with him. He loved his horses. He had a friend who, uh, who had a stable, who was developing racehorses. He&#039 ; d go out with him. Uh, they actually named a racehorse after him, and, uh, have pictures of him riding horses. Um, and it goes on and on. CRANE: Where was Miles Park? BRONNER: Miles Park was at Algonquin Parkway. CRANE: Oh, it&#039 ; s in Louisville. BRONNER: In Louisville. It was in Louisville, yeah. CRANE: Wow. BRONNER: And, uh, it was a very small racetrack, before things got to where they are today, and, uh, it was--I don&#039 ; t know of the dates, because I was too young to know when it was going to be open, but--but it was, uh, you know, it was open, uh, pretty much, I think, when Churchill wasn&#039 ; t, it was open. So they raced a lot out there. And it burned down, and then they closed it. CRANE: You said that your mother&#039 ; s given name was Betty Jane-- BRONNER: --Levy-- CRANE: --Levy Bronner, and then it became Bronner. And, clearly, um, she was a gracious and much-loved lady, but I know her as Gigi, which is how I was introduced to her. How did she get to be known as Gigi? BRONNER: Uh, my son, who was the oldest of the--of the grandchildren, uh, I think he named her. I&#039 ; m not sure--I don&#039 ; t remember exactly when, but, um, I don&#039 ; t know if that was--if that was short for &quot ; Grandma,&quot ; or whatever it was, but he named her Gigi, and it stuck. So all the other kids call her Gigi. Matter of fact, almost everybody called her Gigi. CRANE: Did you call her Gigi, your mother? BRONNER: I did, yeah. I used to always call her Gigi as well. CRANE: Describe your mother&#039 ; s role in your family and in the Louisville community, if you can. BRONNER: I--I&#039 ; m not sure I can. I mean, it was, h--in the family, she, um, she took care of all the, uh, of, uh, all the things that my dad did not. My dad was gone, so she was in the, uh, in the housemaker role, the homemaker role, which was huge in the &#039 ; 50s, and very much what people, what people did. You know, one spouse worked, the other spouse raised the family, which might well not be a bad idea nowadays, but it&#039 ; s not the way things are. She took us where we needed to go, she made sure we got there, um, she took care of the house, um, she entertained when we had people over, which was often. She was involved in charity work. Uh-- CRANE: What kinds of charities? BRONNER: A lot of things through the JCC [Jewish Community Center]. Uh, a lot of, uh, other local charities. She did some things for Jewish Hospital. Um, um, honestly, I&#039 ; d have to look at some of the lists. The list was huge, you know, when she--when she passed away, and I saw the list, I was stunned to see how much she did. CRANE: You know, one of my favorite Jewish Lexington stories is about the three Hyman Levys that once lived there, and to keep them straight, we used to call them Little Hyman, or Shoe Hyman--some people called him Shoe Hyman ; Fat Hyman ; and Chicken Hyman. Uh, one of those Hymans--I guess it was Chicken Hyman--was related to you. Can you explain that relationship, and how he became known as Chicken Hyman? BRONNER: Well, that part of the family, and, uh, my grandfather, because I&#039 ; ve heard those stories frequently, uh, they would, uh, they made a living by riding the chicken train, which I can&#039 ; t imagine, but apparently there was a train that went to market in Chicago, and they filled it with a car full of chickens, and they made sure the chickens were safe, they were fed, and nobody stole them. And so they took them to be butchered in Chicago, and I think that&#039 ; s where the name came from. CRANE: And where did this train start from, here? BRONNER: You know, I don&#039 ; t know where it started from, but I know they got on it in Lexington, or somewhere out in the country. I suspect they probably brought the chickens to Lexington, they got on the train, and then went there from Lexington. CRANE: And so, how are you connected to Chicken Hyman? BRONNER: Well, uh, Nat was the son of Chicken Hyman, and he became one of the chickens, I guess. Um, and--because he rode the train, because I would hear stories about that. CRANE: Okay, so he was your great-uncle? BRONNER: Uh, right. CRANE: Okay. BRONNER: Right. Because the whole family--when they emigrated, the majority of the family, they emigrated to Lexington, so when the Lexington ties, fortunately or unfortunately, are coming back to me, because the kids are--(laughs)--the kids seem to be coming back to Lexington. CRANE: Okay. Um, like many Jewish immigrants, your mother&#039 ; s family name was not originally Levy, but it was changed, and I know you&#039 ; ve said this once before, and you&#039 ; ve told the story, but just for the record, can you spell it again for me? BRONNER: Oh, so you want to see if I do it the same way twice. CRANE: Well, actually, we&#039 ; re doing this so that the person who transcribes this can spell it correctly. BRONNER: Okay. I think it&#039 ; s--I think it&#039 ; s actually V-e-r-s--I don&#039 ; t know if there&#039 ; s a C or not--V-e-r-s-h-v-o-v-s-k-u, Vershvovsky. CRANE: Okay, thank you. BRONNER: And if you ask my wife, it&#039 ; s very funny to hear her pronounce it. CRANE: Okay. Where was your mother&#039 ; s family from, and how did your mother&#039 ; s family end up in Kentucky. BRONNER: Uh, I, uh, well, again, my grandfather was from Russia, um, and ended up in Lexington, and, uh, and, uh, met my mother--uh, met my grandmother here, fell in love with her, courted her, and, uh, ended up here, because this is where she was from. CRANE: I&#039 ; ve heard some family rumors that your grandfather had some connections with Al Capone. (laughs) What can you tell me about those rumors? BRONNER: Those were some of the few stories we could get out of my dad. CRANE: And this is your--the Bronner side of the family? BRONNER: Yeah. CRANE: Okay. BRONNER: They lived all around Miami, um, and the story we heard was, they lived on an island. The next island over was where Al Capone lived, and his son, Sonny Capone, uh, was a friend of, uh, of my uncle Dick&#039 ; s, and my uncle Hank&#039 ; s, and thus, my dad, so they all were social, and they would just take their little boat from their backyard--they lived on an island on the Venetian Causeway, and they were on the water in the bay, and they would get into a boat, and they would go to--to the island where Al Capone lived, and go spend the day with Sonny, and vice versa, and I think Al was pretty--was pretty old, and not out very much, and functional, uh, but some of his, uh--it&#039 ; s funny, my mom used to call him, uh, called them his henchmen--were always there, um--because she actually, you know, she knew Sonny. Sonny actually went into the restaurant business when he got older in Miami, and, uh, so when they were younger, they would go to the restaurant, or when we went back, they would go to the restaurant, and, um, so, I don&#039 ; t know the tie-in. Uh, my brother and I have talked, and my sister, um--as we&#039 ; ve gotten older, we have suspected that the furniture business--you know, you hear all these stories, that--that maybe they were--they were, um, taking some of the mob money, and they were running it through the business. I don&#039 ; t really know, but it makes for a good story. CRANE: It does. BRONNER: But I can&#039 ; t tell you that it&#039 ; s not true, either. CRANE: I&#039 ; ve learned from other interviews that before your father moved to Louisville, there were other Bronner family members that were living here. Two of them, um, I&#039 ; d like to ask you about them. First, there was an Augusta Fox Bronner, who uh--who from what I could Google about her, was quite notable. Tell me what you know about Augusta Fox Bronner. BRONNER: I think you know more than I do, uh, because you&#039 ; ve Googled her recently. Uh, I used to hear about her from my mom, uh, that she lived--(laughs)--really what I heard was that she was here, she was a teacher, um, that she was very progressive, that she had a college degree, um--I would say Google her, you&#039 ; ll get more, if you want to put into it what you know, because you&#039 ; ve Googled her recently--that would be great. We were talking about it beforehand, so-- CRANE: Um, I know that she lived, uh, from 1881 to 1966, and she was, um, was the daughter of Hannah Fox and Gustav Bronner, uh, and she was a clinical psychologist with expertise in juvenile delinquency. She taught at the Normal School for Women in Louisville, and she taught at Yale. Um, according to an interview that I listened to that your mother did, um, she was told by her pat--your mother&#039 ; s--your paternal grandmother, uh, that Augusta was your aunt, and that when they moved to Louisville, they should look her up. So, uh, did you ever meet her? BRONNER: Not that I know, but, I mean, you&#039 ; re talking about--I would have been--I would have been very young at that point, because if she passed away--you said &#039 ; 66? CRANE: Um-hm. BRONNER: So, I mean, I would have been a kid. CRANE: And you don&#039 ; t know if she has family here, or-- BRONNER: You know, there--there&#039 ; s only one other Bronner family here. Um, we know from, um, going way back, distant, that they all came from--they all came out of New York originally. They, uh--but that family is a Catholic family, uh, so we don&#039 ; t know their origin, obviously, we being Jewish family. Uh, I know a number of, uh--of the members of that family, but we don&#039 ; t know any direct tie-in to them. CRANE: And what about Dr. Herbert Bronner, who was, again, according to your mother, was associated with the Jewish Hospital in its very, very early years? BRONNER: Right. CRANE: What do you know about him? BRONNER: I know he was, uh, he was a staff president at one time. Um, I know his name was on a plaque in the entry--that&#039 ; s the first I knew about--well, when I started working at Jewish Hospital, you look at this plaque, and you see Bronner, and then you say, okay, who was this? Who was this guy? I&#039 ; ve never heard of him. So, he was very prominent in the medical community, but I don&#039 ; t know a lot of details. I think he did some OB at a time when they didn&#039 ; t specialize in OB, uh, so most people were--were family practitioners, and they may have done more one--one area than another, but that&#039 ; s really--I don&#039 ; t know a lot of details. So, once again, you&#039 ; ve been doing all the research--you may know more than I do. CRANE: You know, the only thing that I know was, it was very strange that, um, you could be an OB/GYN, and also be doing hearing. BRONNER: Um-hm. CRANE: I mean, it was a strange-- BRONNER: --you did everything, yeah-- CRANE: --connection, um, with specialties. BRONNER: Yeah. Well, there were no specialties, that&#039 ; s the thing, you know, so, specialties developed over time, but--but really, um--let&#039 ; s see, I was--in 1968, I fell through a glass door, and cut a flexor tendon on a hand, which meant that--that it had to be repaired surgically. There were no hand specialties. Dr. Kleinert, who is well known here, he was starting to take an interest in hand, but there was no specialty. So, if you were interested and you liked it, you set up shop and said, &quot ; Hey, I do--I do hand surgery, come see me, um, but I still will operate on your abdomen too at the same time.&quot ; So, it&#039 ; s just over, you know, over the last thirty years or more that things really started to--to specialize, and, um, so everyone did everything. CRANE: Okay. Your childhood. What was Judaism like in your family growing up? BRONNER: Boy, that&#039 ; s a--how was it in my family? My mother was--first of all, we were--we grew up Reform. We went to Brit Shalom, which doesn&#039 ; t exist anymore. CRANE: What was the name of it? BRONNER: Brit Shalom. And--it merged with, uh, it merged with, uh, another temple, to become The Temple, which is the big Reform synagogue here. Uh, it was relatively small. Um, it, um, it was, um--it was somewhat family oriented, um, I want to say small--you know, as a kind, it&#039 ; s hard to gauge. What--what looked big as a kid was really pretty small, so I don&#039 ; t really know how many families were there, but, uh, a number of, uh, a number of those--I think five of those families, when they joined The Temple to merge, split off to become, uh, to become Temple Shalom, which has now grown to a sizable synagogue here. Um, what the synagogue--what the temple--we went for the high holidays, uh, we went to the Sunday school every week, uh, we went for some of the, uh, for some of the, uh, Jewish holidays. My mom was kind of the one who, uh, who pushed that we, uh, be actively involved in religion. Uh, the, uh--it&#039 ; s been very interesting, because being, uh--there was originally no bat mitzvah then. Girls didn&#039 ; t have anything done. Uh, bar mitzvah was more or less elective. You--you went to Sunday school, and you were confirmed, and/or you got bar mitzvahed. Um, I decided to be confirmed, so I was not bar mitzvahed. It wasn&#039 ; t--it just wasn&#039 ; t as big a deal in the Reform temple as it--as it seems to have gotten today. Um, again, my mom was the one who at least appeared to be more religious, as far as pushing things. My dad was the guy who&#039 ; d take us to Sunday school, and he&#039 ; d say, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s cut today. Come on, let&#039 ; s--we&#039 ; re going to have a sugar and cupcake run, and go to the dairy, and, uh, I&#039 ; ll have coffee, and, uh, we&#039 ; ll have ice cream and donuts.&quot ; Uh, so that happened every so often. It probably wasn&#039 ; t the best example in the long run, but--but he did that. Uh, I don&#039 ; t know what his Jewish background was in Florida, but--but I do know that he was--he was far more religious, uh, than he ever let on when we were kids. Um, he, uh--he was always the usher at high holidays, and the joke was that the ushers would get everybody inside and then they would go and shoot craps, uh, while we were in synagogue--you know, a joke, obviously, but, uh, but, um, you know, that was--that was--my mom was one example, my dad was the less religious example, and we all fell somewhere in between. Now, we all had a Jewish identity, but I don&#039 ; t think that we--that we&#039 ; re--go to synagogue religious, like we see in the, in the other synagogues, and, uh, and I think everything has kind of progressed, uh, more today. I think it&#039 ; s much different today than it was then, although--although I think--i think, uh, we&#039 ; ve become much more of a melting pot today than we ever were then. CRANE: How did your family celebrate holidays? BRONNER: Which ones? CRANE: Any of them. BRONNER: Well, obviously holidays were always family--family events. We were always together. Um, we invited other relatives who would come if they could come, but, uh, but we were always together. There were, uh, there were things that were, um--you didn&#039 ; t plan to do anything else. Now, it was hard to do anything else, because the stores were closed, uh, there was no place to go, you know, you got your food in preparation for it in advance, and, uh, you just didn&#039 ; t plan to go out, because there was nothing to do. If you went out, you went out for a ride, because there was nowhere to stop, including gas stations, so you better gas up before. CRANE: What did your parents teach you about Judaism? BRONNER: I think they taught me that it was an identity, uh, more than anything else, uh-- CRANE: What do you mean by that? BRONNER: That there was, uh--well, I wasn&#039 ; t--well, I wasn&#039 ; t a temple-going Jew, I never got very much from it. Uh, I always felt that to go to temple and have somebody lead me in a ceremony that didn&#039 ; t allow me to think, uh, that was never something that I enjoyed very much or got much out of. Now, my mom made sure that we went, but I think my dad taught me more that you need to consider who you are and what you get from being Jewish, and, uh, and again, that identity was identified with the Jewish people. I identified with other people, obviously, but I knew that I was Jewish, and, uh, I knew that it was--I won&#039 ; t say a way of life, but I guess it kind of was a way of life, at that time, especially. CRANE: How were your parents&#039 ; , uh, relationship to Judaism different than their parents&#039 ; relationship to Judaism? BRONNER: Boy. Um, I can&#039 ; t tell you about my paternal parents, because I don&#039 ; t know, uh, but again, my dad certainly had Jewish training, and my uncles had Jewish training. My dad had unique training, because he was recruited and went to a Catholic high school because of athletics, so he was also pretty well Catholic trained too. Um, he used that as an advantage, but he was obviously Jewish. Um, from my mom&#039 ; s side, I think my grandmother was, uh, a little more liberal than my grandfather. My grandfather was more religious, and he would go to the Reform temple, and he would go to--he would, uh--he was at home anywhere, and I&#039 ; m not sure if that was his--his Russian background, or his acceptance into the Jewish community when they got here. I don&#039 ; t really know. That really was something we never talked about as kids. You know, I don&#039 ; t think we thought about it. Maybe more so as an adult, but it was another thing we never had a chance to ask. CRANE: What--um, I know there&#039 ; s an age difference, a couple years between you and Steve and Barbara, but what were your Jewish experiences? How were they different? BRONNER: I don&#039 ; t know that they were that much different in that--in that--in those years. Um, you know, we participated in--again, we went--we went to temple. Um, Barbara wasn&#039 ; t eligible, uh, to be bat mitzvahed, because it wasn&#039 ; t anything you thought about. Um, but we were deeply involved in the JCC, spent a lot of time there, um, were involved in--in Jewish clubs, which were very big, and are not so much anymore. Um, pretty much if you were a Jewish kid then, you joined a Jewish club, which gave you exposure to--indirect exposure to other Jewish kids, and Jewish girls, which was very big at the time, uh, still would be, I suppose, but it was very big then as a kid, and, uh, I think that&#039 ; s probably the thing that, uh, that involves you more than anything else in that part of Jewish community life. CRANE: What were the clubs like? BRONNER: It was social, but there were also--you know, there was--well, it ran the gamut. There were those that were very--uber-religious, and there were those that weren&#039 ; t so religious, but the religion in the ones that weren&#039 ; t religious, uber-religious, was still there. It was subtle, but it was there. Uh, I obviously gravitated to the one that was the more popular one, which, if I had to do again, I don&#039 ; t know if that&#039 ; s where I&#039 ; d be, but, uh--just because of what I know today, but, uh, it was more or less a matter of, they were driven by athletics, for the most part, at that time, and then when you got in, there was a social component, and the social component entailed also the--the religious component, which you didn&#039 ; t really know as you were doing it, but as you&#039 ; d become an adult, you&#039 ; d start to see that. CRANE: And these were all Jewish clubs associated with the-- BRONNER: --with the JCC, yeah-- CRANE: --the JCC. In one of the interviews that I listened to, I think it was of your father&#039 ; s, talked about what--it was his impression of what a wonderful opportunity his children had by participating in the JCC here in Louisville-- BRONNER: --um-hm-- CRANE: --and thought it just did wonders for you all. And, I&#039 ; m just, um--what was the name of your club? What kinds of friends did you make? Um, do you still have those friendships, those relationships with the people that you grew up with, in--in those social circles? BRONNER: Um, we were at a point where--I was in a--in a club called, uh, Pi, Pi Tau Pi. There were, I think, five or six different clubs at the time. Um, most of the people that I was affiliated with then moved away. Um, we actually started a faction where three clubs used to have social things, uh, unsanctioned social things together, because there were a number of us who were friends, and it was like any other--uh, they used to go around, and they would choose who they wanted in the club, and then they would come to the house and say, &quot ; Hey,&quot ; you know--and you would list who you were interested in, but they would come to the house and say, um, &quot ; Hey, you&#039 ; re in our club,&quot ; and you&#039 ; d go with them, and, uh, and that was kind of how you got involved, and, um, it was, um, it was a good place to be in high school, because it filled your time, it kept you out of trouble, uh, it got you into, uh--got you into sports, and it got you into social life. Most of my friends from there moved away, they live in different places, um, different--different circles, um, and I have--I have friends locally--I wouldn&#039 ; t say that they&#039 ; re close friends, but, uh, but people I know well, from that time. But also, a lot of people, as I said, I&#039 ; m not sure I would go in that direction today, because I have many, many friends who were in others of these clubs, and who might well be considered better friends than they were then. Uh, I think you learn things as you grow up, learn things about yourself as you grow up. CRANE: What kind of--did you live in a Jewish neighborhood, if that&#039 ; s even a possibility? Um, there have been other people that I&#039 ; ve spoken with, um, that have shared that they grew up in more of a neighborhood where there were lots of Jewish kids, and they went from their neighborhood to the JCC. Just wondering if the neighborhood that you grew up in, or the schools that you went to, if there was a strong Jewish population there? BRONNER: Percentage-wise, I couldn&#039 ; t say. Yes, there was a strong Jewish population, um, or either that or we affiliated with those people, because we were involved in the Jewish club scene, but we were--we were a pretty mixed subdivision. We had a lot of different people of a lot of different religions, which really, for the most part, never came up. We didn&#039 ; t go to church with them, they didn&#039 ; t go to--to temple with us, uh, but we were all outside playing after school. We weren&#039 ; t inside--there was nothing to do inside. Uh, so we were all outside, and we&#039 ; d go outside and we&#039 ; d ride our bikes to somebody&#039 ; s house, and we&#039 ; d do whatever--we&#039 ; d play, whatever games we play--football, baseball, uh, and many nights, we would end up eating dinner at some neighbor&#039 ; s house, and again, uh, and maybe dinner at our house, but I don&#039 ; t know that it was specifically Jewish-oriented. I really don&#039 ; t think so. CRANE: What was the non-Jewish community&#039 ; s reaction to your Jewishness? BRONNER: I don&#039 ; t think it ever came up that I was aware of. Now, it may have been on the parental side, but--but I was never aware of any bias, for or against. At least, not where--not where I lived. If there--if it was there, I was not aware of it. CRANE: Describe if you connected with any--besides the larger Jewish community that you connected with through the JCC, did you connect with even a bigger Jewish community? Did you all take field trips, uh, did you go to Cincinnati? Obviously, Lexington&#039 ; s a smaller Jewish community, so you&#039 ; re probably not going to go there, but-- BRONNER: No, we weren&#039 ; t going to go there. UK was there. No, we were all U of L fans. CRANE: I&#039 ; m going to ignore that one. BRONNER: Honestly, really, there were a lot of people who did. Uh, the girls seemed to do that more than the men. There were some athletic--there were some athletic trips, if you, uh, had a very, uh--and again, basketball, we had a very good basketball team, uh, there were some national tournaments, um, uh--those would be in Atlanta, for the most part, but really, it was pretty much local, at least that I was involved in. CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual growing up? BRONNER: Wow. My most vivid memory. Gosh. Um, that&#039 ; s a hard question. You should have asked me that before, to think about it. I would say--and it&#039 ; s a crazy memory, honestly, but I think probably the most vivid memory was Sukkos, and, uh, going--they used to have big bushels of apples, and as a kid, you&#039 ; d get to go and pick an apple. You&#039 ; d go to services, you&#039 ; d get to go pick an apple. It&#039 ; s a crazy memory, but that&#039 ; s probably it. CRANE: That&#039 ; s okay. Before we get into your adult life, is there anything else unique or special that you would like to share about your family background or your childhood years? BRONNER: Wow. Uh, nothing specific, unless you want to lead me somewhere. CRANE: Well, I might in a little bit. F2: What about schools when you were a child, and other Jewish kids in the schools that you went to? Which schools did you go to? BRONNER: I went to Belknap Elementary, it was on Speed Avenue, which hasn&#039 ; t existed for a number of years, went to Highland Junior High--we went through sixth grade in elementary school, seventh, eighth, and ninth was junior high school, so I went to Highland, which is a middle school now, and then went to Atherton for high school. And--and it was mixed--you know, there was some Jewish kids, there were lots of other kids there. Uh, I had lots of Jewish friends growing up, because--I think primarily because of, uh, people in the Jewish club scene. I mean, I think that really was the glue that held that together. CRANE: You mentioned, um, just a little while ago that it&#039 ; s different now. What did you mean by that? BRONNER: Uh, when my kids grew up, that really wasn&#039 ; t something that--I don&#039 ; t know that it didn&#039 ; t exist, but it wasn&#039 ; t a priority. There were, uh, I think, somewhere--and probably because of decreased involvement, it--it turned into one or two clubs, and, uh, if you wanted to join, you came in and you joined whatever you wanted. Um, the involvement, the numbers were down, the numbers at JCC were down--it just, uh, it just was not the same, and my kids chose not to be involved in that. CRANE: You know, did you grow up in a time period where you had high school clubs? Not Jewish--necessarily Jewish clubs at the JCC, but just high school clubs? BRONNER: You mean so you could say on the yearbook that you were in the chess club, and the-- CRANE: Not the chess club, social clubs. BRONNER: No, there were not. No. If there were, we were too busy participating in our clubs through the JCC, so that&#039 ; s really--that&#039 ; s really what we were into. CRANE: So where did you go to college? BRONNER: I went to Indiana University, um, started there in 1971, and, um, did not graduate--I graduated from U of L. Uh, I was at IU [Indiana University] for--well, really for three years, but really only had about two and a half years of credit, because I became--I got ill, and had to come home and be hospitalized. I went back, finished nine--nine hours one semester--the next semester, went back, got sick, had to go back, was hospitalized, went back, finished six hours--the next semester, went back, got sick, and dropped out, and took the rest of the year off, which was actually a--it was what needed to happen, but it was--in retrospect, it was pretty nice as far as teaching me that you didn&#039 ; t have to just keep up like you felt like you had to in one through twelve years, because it didn&#039 ; t seem to matter. So, after that, I--I enrolled at U of L--University of Louisville--and graduated from there. CRANE: And when did you graduate from U of L? BRONNER: If I was on track, I would have graduated in &#039 ; 75. I graduated in &#039 ; 76. CRANE: And, what did you study? BRONNER: I went in pre-med, science major, and stayed that. CRANE: While you were in college, whether it be IU or U of L, describe any affiliation that you had with a Jewish organization, such as a fraternity or Hillel. BRONNER: Right. I, uh, initially went into the dorm, because I wanted, uh, not to make any rash decisions about what I did, and after one semester, joined ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau], and moved into ZBT the next year. CRANE: What was that like? BRONNER: The fraternity? CRANE: Um-hm. BRONNER: When I joined ZBT, it was when fraternities were very down, they were very much on the outs, except at IU, fraternities were running strong, and it was--it was a great big fraternity house that, uh, had room to house about 120 people, which was massive, when you think about it, and they pretty much did. It was overflow at the time. It was, uh--it was a fun place to be. It was a good place to be. It was much like, uh, much like the people that I had, uh--that I had been with, uh, in high school, except much broader. Um, some of my friends from high school joined that fraternity. Um, it was, um--gosh, again, it wasn&#039 ; t the more religious fraternity, but there was religious--but there was--you know, they were--it was more of a Reform type atmosphere, and so there were--there were--we celebrated services, um, we had a lot of things that were social, and, uh, people generally did very well academically. A lot of bright guys there. CRANE: And when you say that there was some--obviously it was a Jewish fraternity, there was some Jewishness to it, can you describe more of what that was like? BRONNER: Well, let me also say there were a number of people in the fraternity who were not Jewish, and, uh, they just liked the fraternity and they liked the people there and they liked what they were doing. What was it like? Uh, there were some people who were more religious, and they would go to services. Um, actually, my first roommate at ZBT--actually, I had two, but one of them, his parents had been concentration camp survivors, and, uh, he was exceptionally religious, and he was involved with Hillel, and, uh, he was at services daily, uh, which was an interesting experience for me, because I&#039 ; d not been exposed to anyone with that background, or that degree of, uh, being religious until him, and, uh, actually one morning I woke up, and I thought he was--I joked with him, I thought he was committing suicide--he would lay tefilin, and so he would strap himself up, and I&#039 ; d go, &quot ; No, don&#039 ; t do it, nothing can be that bad!&quot ; So, he taught me a lot, uh, and we&#039 ; ve communicated over the years, and uh, um, I have another--my other roommate, who was not Jewish--I have no idea what happened to him. Never seen or heard from him. So--and then, a number of other people, um, in that class, who I see or hear from intermittently, uh, probably more intermittent as the years go by. Uh, I think some of the social media makes it easier to look people up--that&#039 ; s been fun. Um, but, again, it was--I guess it was a situation where you could have as much Jewish, uh, involvement with--it was multiple different groups, you know--it, uh, it crossed all borders, so, uh, so you could be involved in everything, or nothing. It was very non-judgmental--that was one of the nice things about it. CRANE: Did you have any affiliation with Hillel during that time that you were there? BRONNER: Uh, not really. I was invited numerous times, but not really. As a matter of fact, high holidays, my roommate, uh, had me on the schedule with an aliyah, and I told him I had class, I couldn&#039 ; t go. I just--it was not--it was just not something I was--he was trying to get me involved, and it was not something that I was ready to be involved in at that time. CRANE: Um, what was your social life like while you were at IU? BRONNER: It was, uh, interesting. We had fraternity parties, uh, every weekend, um--had dated a number of different people, had a girlfriend here, uh, who would come up, uh, who would come up, uh, intermittently, uh, and we were--it was a great social life. IU&#039 ; s a great place. When I--when I left, my brother subsequently went there and graduated from IU, my sister subsequently went to IU and graduate from IU--must have been a good place, I set a good example. CRANE: Okay, so you left IU and you came back-- BRONNER: --to Louisville-- CRANE: --to Louisville, and then what happened? BRONNER: I went from Louisville undergrad to med school, at U of L, and graduated from there. CRANE: And how was that transition? BRONNER: I graduated from undergrad, and, uh, a few months later, started medical school. I mean, it was pretty seamless--I didn&#039 ; t have to go very far, I didn&#039 ; t have to do anything--the only thing that I did in the meantime was, I got married between undergrad and grad school. That was the only transition. CRANE: Okay. Um, you married Anne between--after you graduated from college-- BRONNER: --college-- CRANE: --and before you started medical school. BRONNER: Right. CRANE: I&#039 ; m assuming she was the one that came up to visit you at IU. BRONNER: She was. She was. CRANE: Describe the Jewish population of students, or the faculty, at U of L when you were in medical school. BRONNER: Wow. CRANE: Were there other Jewish kids in your-- BRONNER: Um, yeah, there were. I mean, a couple of my close friends were Jewish. Uh, I don&#039 ; t know that I sought them out--I guess we found each other, uh--and, uh, I don&#039 ; t think it was anything that was planned, I think it just happened. CRANE: How does that happen? BRONNER: I just think it&#039 ; s your background, you know? Sometimes--sometimes you&#039 ; ll hear a name, and you&#039 ; ll figure that guy&#039 ; s Jewish, or she&#039 ; s Jewish, and you--I don&#039 ; t know, I think, at least at the outset, when you don&#039 ; t know somebody, it set a common ground. Again, I think it&#039 ; s--it wasn&#039 ; t, uh, it just allowed you to--to feel like you came from the same place, and so-- CRANE: And are you still friends with these people? Did you stay in contact with them? BRONNER: Um, a couple. A couple. Again, it&#039 ; s been a couple years. CRANE: Since you graduated? BRONNER: Yeah, a couple. I graduated in 1980, so it&#039 ; s been a few. CRANE: Um, what was the--was there a Jewish medical staff, I mean, uh, at the university? BRONNER: They were scattered. There were a few. There were a few. There was-- CRANE: Were they supportive, or, did you connect with them, with-- BRONNER: --you know, they--not really. You know, uh, they were there. I don&#039 ; t think they showed favoritism toward anyone. I really don&#039 ; t. CRANE: And where did you do your internship or residency? BRONNER: I went to Charleston, South Carolina to Medical University of South Carolina. CRANE: And you did both of them there? BRONNER: Internship, residency, and fellowship. I stayed for five years. CRANE: Okay. How old were your children when you moved back to Louisville? I know they were--were they all born in South Carolina? BRONNER: All born in South Carolina. CRANE: And then you moved back to Louisville? BRONNER: Moved back to Louisville. Beth, the youngest, was six months. Meredith was about two, Jonathan--Jonathan, uh, was almost--was about four. CRANE: And what were holidays like in your home as your children were growing up? BRONNER: Uh, holidays were fun, uh, whole family was there, uh, we would go to--to--to parents&#039 ; houses, or they would come to our house, and it was a big family gathering, and my siblings that were here, they--we would all get together, one house or another. CRANE: As an adult, explain your reasoning for either a continuing affiliation with your temple or why you&#039 ; ve not continued. BRONNER: Um, I was a member of Temple Shalom from 1985, when I moved back to Louisville, until recently--until about two years ago. Um, I was very fond of the rabbi, who&#039 ; s since--now retired, uh, Stanley Miles, um, I was involved in--in helping to develop the new building, uh, like a number of people there--children were involved, it was--Stanley was very good with the kids, as far as education. Uh, kids all moved away, girls decided not to come back home to be married, which seems to be the latest trend--they used to all come back home to be married, and now they want to be married where their friends are and where they&#039 ; re going to live, so they were married in other cities, and, uh, and there were some issues going on with, uh, with Temple Shalom, and family, so I dropped out of Temple Shalom, um,--which I won&#039 ; t get into, but there were issues and reasons, and I just decided that I would go to The Temple, the large Reform, uh, temple, which was, um, which was where my family went, and they were always going to come here. My mom went, and--basically what I found is that as the kids were going, I was going where my mom was, more than anything else. It was family. CRANE: And where do your siblings go? Do they go to the same temple? BRONNER: They go The Temple--the whole family, yeah. CRANE: What supports and challenges were there for you in Louisville raising your--your kids Jewish, and did you actively-- BRONNER: The biggest support was family, I think, um, you know, um, having the family there on both sides was huge. That was the biggest reason probably to move back to Louisville. Um, I loved Charleston, I would have stayed there, but family, and, just opportunity, and cover--but probably family was the biggest reason to come back. CRANE: Tell me about your children&#039 ; s involvement in their--uh, in the the Jewish community here as they were growing up. BRONNER: Um, gosh. They started at Knesset Israel preschool, uh, that&#039 ; s where they started, uh, made a lot of friends there, some of whom have been lifelong friends, continue to be. Now, obviously, they&#039 ; ve got another thirty years or so to get to where I am, and life takes people down different roads, but--but many of them have lifelong friends that are here, in different cities, and different places, and last weekend we were just, uh, at a wedding with a lot of Meredith&#039 ; s childhood friends that they went to preschool with, and, uh, and they had all become friends, uh, so my son and youngest daughter--all three of my kids were there, so, uh, so there was a--you know, there was a close relationship with all of them, and I think you get all that interrelationship, and if you can make it go as many years as this has gone, uh, that&#039 ; s good. Uh, you know, again, um, then they went to other schools, they were--and at that point, the JCC had declined some, so they really weren&#039 ; t involved in the club scene, but there was a time when they took all the confirmation classes, and they started teaching them together from all the different temples and synagogues. And, our rabbi, Stanley Miles, was deeply involved in that, and I think that got them involved in the--they met a lot of other kids that maybe they didn&#039 ; t know, uh, they started to have relationships from the standpoint of doing things with these other kids, and so, I think, starting at KI preschool and going forward, I think, was big. I can&#039 ; t tell you, relative to going to school and high school, but again, I know with my son, some of his closest friends even today, even though they live in different cities, uh, were, uh, my son&#039 ; s best friend he met at three. So, you know, so I think it obviously had an impact, and they went through school together. CRANE: Knesset is a more Conservative-- BRONNER: --no-- CRANE: Orthodox, okay, now it&#039 ; s Conservative-- BRONNER: --it was very Orthodox at that time-- CRANE: --back--okay. Now it&#039 ; s-- BRONNER: --uh, it&#039 ; s kind of gone Conservative, Orthodox, middle ground, in order to survive. CRANE: Conservadox. (laughs) BRONNER: Yeah. In order to survive, yes. CRANE: Okay. And so, why did you all make that choice, growing up in a Reformed temple, practicing Reform Judaism, why did you choose to send your kids to a more Conservative / Orthodox preschool? BRONNER: Uh, knew people there, it was what was felt to be the best preschool at that time, though there was some others that we could have gone to, and in South Carolina, you know, you went to some of the generic preschools for a while, with my son, at least, and, uh, this was just a good place to be, and probably at the back of our minds, there was some Jewish connection there too, but again, it was citywide--I mean, it wasn&#039 ; t just Jewish kids there, it was felt to be a high-quality place. CRANE: You know, you have a long history with the Louisville Jewish community. What are some of your thoughts on how the Jewish community has changed over your lifetime? BRONNER: Um, gosh, I think, um, I&#039 ; ve seen more people go farther away, their kids go farther away and not come back, which spreads people far and wide. Um, I think probably the biggest thing is intermarriage, which is not just here, I mean, it&#039 ; s everywhere. I think that&#039 ; s probably the biggest thing. CRANE: How has, uh, the role of having a Jewish mayor--how do you see the role of Jerry Abramson on the Jewish community at large, or Jews in Louisville? BRONNER: Well, he lied to us. He was supposed to be mayor for life. No, that was always the joke when Jerry was the mayor. I mean, I think it was something that the Jewish community silently took pride in, but didn&#039 ; t talk about outside of the Jewish community. He was highly involved in things. I know he had--he had, uh, interest in Jewish events, but again, I think he was very fair, and he, he showed his interest in everything. I think it was pretty much--I don&#039 ; t think he was especially unfair to anything, and I think he was a very good mayor. CRANE: Do you think it changed anything towards lessening any anti-Semitic views in the community, if there are any or have been? BRONNER: I mean, there obviously are, there obviously were, and some of them obviously still exist. I think they&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; re less, and I think they&#039 ; re less vocal. Um, you know, I can&#039 ; t say whether that had a lot to do with it or not. I would guess probably, over time, it did. Um, obviously it must have--he got elected, they knew he was Jewish, so it must have had some impact, because if you went back many years, it would never have happened, um, but--uh, I don&#039 ; t know that I&#039 ; ve thought about that aspect of it, but I&#039 ; m sure it did change things. I know when I was in--you know, I thought when I was in high school, we were working at polls for elections, and some of us got sent out--Dixie Highway, which was the south end of Louisville, which was--which was an area where, uh, Jewish people did not live, and I think many of the people there, uh, had never seen Jewish people before. I don&#039 ; t know how they found out--somebody said something that was not purely nice about the candidate, or someone, and they--and someone said, &quot ; Well, you know, I&#039 ; m Jewish,&quot ; and it was very interesting, uh, because I don&#039 ; t think they--I don&#039 ; t think they&#039 ; d ever seen anyone who was Jewish, and recognized the fact that you couldn&#039 ; t tell us apart from anybody else. CRANE: What&#039 ; s been the role of Israel of Zionism in your activities and of your identity as a Jew? BRONNER: You know, I--I personally consider myself to be a Jewish-American. I have, um--I have not been particularly involved from that standpoint, because I, uh--I think they do need support, but, there were a lot of underhanded ways they approached me when I was younger, and because of that, I think I was very turned off by it. CRANE: Would you like to just explain what you mean by underhanded? BRONNER: Um, when--when they--again, probably one simple thing from when I was a teen, they would, um, they would have what&#039 ; s now morphed into Super Sunday, and they would--they would call you up and ask how much you want to give, and they&#039 ; d say, &quot ; Your brother&#039 ; s giving $5, don&#039 ; t you want to beat him?&quot ; And then they&#039 ; d call my brother back and say, &quot ; Well, he&#039 ; s giving $8, don&#039 ; t you want to beat him?&quot ; Um, you know, as an adult, I can make my own decisions, but, there was a degree of competitiveness that was going on, and I don&#039 ; t think that was the right way to approach things. Uh, again, those were people who were just interested in things, but, um, I would much rather have a charity that collects for charities as opposed to one who spends a lot of money on other things to be able to collect money, uh, and in recent years, when they&#039 ; ve asked for a donation, my answer is, &quot ; Show me how much of the money is going to what--to where it&#039 ; s supposed to go. I want to know the breakdown.&quot ; And, you know, to this day, I&#039 ; ve never had anyone send me a breakdown, ever--telling me it&#039 ; s fairly poorly prepared, as far as these people who are calling me. So, again, those are the things that turn me off. CRANE: Let&#039 ; s talk about your work as a physician. What area of medicine is your specialty? BRONNER: Uh, gastroenterology. CRANE: And how long have you been in practice? BRONNER: I started private practice in 1985. CRANE: And doing my homework, I learned that you were the founding medical director of the Kentucky chapter of the Crohn&#039 ; s and Colitis Foundation of America. If you could share some of the history behind this organization, and the role you have played, and why it became so important to you. BRONNER: What year was that? CRANE: I don&#039 ; t know. BRONNER: I don&#039 ; t know--I don&#039 ; t remember either. It was a long time ago. CRANE: It&#039 ; s been a while. BRONNER: Yeah. Um, obviously I was--as--as I said, I came home from college a number of years, uh, because I got sick, and that&#039 ; s because I was ultimately diagnosed with Crohn&#039 ; s disease. My brother was diagnosed with Crohn&#039 ; s disease when he was nine, and at that time, nobody knew exactly what it was or how to treat it, and certainly not here, and, uh, he went to Chicago, where Dr. Joseph Kirsner practiced, and was diagnosed and treated, and for many years, as opposed to--pretty much here, they knew nothing, and they kind of say, &quot ; He&#039 ; s probably going to die,&quot ; and my mom, not taking that for an answer, said, &quot ; Okay, we&#039 ; ll go elsewhere,&quot ; and took him to Chicago, after doing her research, which probably was through World Book Encyclopedia at that time. Uh, you know, we didn&#039 ; t have the access to things we do today, and, uh, so basically, um, she went there, uh, my brother survived, did well--numerous surgeries, but I was involved in it--and I was always the healthy kid, and again, I got sick, and had, uh, developed the same disease when I was in college, so, um, it became very personal, and so, that was my tie-in, and--and I felt that any charity that supported research into inflammatory bowel disease was important. For a long time before that, before that group, uh, really existed, we donated to the Gastrointestinal Research Foundation, which is out of University of Chicago, founded by Joseph Kirsner, and then when things became broader with this organization, uh, really threw everything behind that. And, uh, when we decided to formulate a chapter, of which a number of people in this community, many of whom had a reason to become involved, because of inflammatory bowel disease personally or in their family, including my parents, uh, started up--we decided that we were going to formulate a chapter. They asked me as a GI doctor to be the medical director, and ultimately formed the first Kentucky chapter. A lot of hoops to jump through, but a lot of big people here helped get it going. CRANE: And what&#039 ; s the status of this organization now? BRONNER: The overall organization, Crohn&#039 ; s and Colitis Foundation? CRANE: No, the chapter. BRONNER: The chapter? Well, ultimately we had a very successful chapter for a number of years. Uh, the chapter folded, not because the chapter was unsuccessful, because the organization, which had undergone numerous reorganizations, decided to do it again. They decided they would save money by removing our local chapter director. Uh, I think he had about thirty minutes to pack up his things, and give his key, which was donated space by one of our board of directors--give his key to the person that came to town to relieve him of his duties, and they told nobody on our board, and we were all pretty much incensed by it, and I called the regional director when I heard about this, and asked--I really said I want to know one thing, and that is, was there malfeasance there, and if there was, just say yes, if not, say no. They said no, and they wanted to explain that this was their idea to make more money--they would save the salary of this person, and we were now going to be under the--so, the Indianapolis chapter director. Now, we existed before they had an Indianapolis chapter, and I think probably two or three weeks after we became under the Indianapolis chapter director, she was pregnant, and she was--she, uh, was taken off her feet for the remainder of her pregnancy, so there was nobody in the, uh--there were a lot of--we, uh, we had a lot of chiefs, but we didn&#039 ; t have enough Indians, and so pretty much the board and the people who drove the chapter, we all basically washed our hands of it at that time, and the chapter folded, which was--which was a pattern that happened a lot of places. It was a bad plan, and they finally decided that, uh, that that was a bad plan, and then over maybe ten years, they started to slowly reorganize. There is a chapter now. I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s as successful or as big, but there is a chapter, which is a good thing for patients. CRANE: I read an article online that stated that the Louisville Jewish Hospital was established in 1903, in part to provide facilities for Jewish doctors who were denied staff privileges elsewhere, and whose patients might prefer treatment in a Jewish environment. BRONNER: Um-hm. CRANE: What has been your relationship with the Jewish Hospital, and what do you know of the Jewish Hospital? BRONNER: Well, obviously I wasn&#039 ; t involved in the original Jewish Hospital, which was a very small building with a small number of physicians. It ultimately got bigger, and moved to Chestnut Street in Louisville. When I came back to Louisville, I was working in two locations. I was recruited by a Jewish physician that I had grown up with his kids to go to the South End, and worked at Southwest Hospital out there, which has since folded, uh, a number of years back, uh, as a hospital entity, at least, uh, and also to work downtown at Jewish Hospital. So, I, uh, spent probably the majority of my career working at Jewish Hospital downtown. Uh, at one time, uh, probably spent the majority of my day down there, uh, doing inpatient care, and endoscopic care, and, uh, over time, things have kind of morphed and changed, and, uh, they&#039 ; re owned by a different company now. Things, in my mind, are somewhat in decline, but they decided that they wanted to, uh, I don&#039 ; t know, maybe five to eight years ago, they wanted to cater to the University of Louisville. They decided they were going to bring the University of Louisville staff--staff and faculty--into the hospital, and it wasn&#039 ; t just myself, it was, uh, GI [gastrointestinal], pulmonary, nephrology, and, they basically, if one of my patients came into the hospital, uh, with the now hospital system, uh, the hospitals would admit the patient, they would consult the specialties, my patient that I&#039 ; d taken care of for ten or twenty years would be--uh, it was a consult put out for the university GI doctor to see them, they--it wasn&#039 ; t their fault, they wouldn&#039 ; t know what was going on--they&#039 ; d go in to see the patient, who would say, &quot ; Oh, where&#039 ; s Dr. Bronner?&quot ; &quot ; Oh, you&#039 ; re his patient? Well, I&#039 ; m here, let me take care of this.&quot ; The next--&quot ; Well, I want to see Dr. Bronner.&quot ; &quot ; Okay, I&#039 ; ll take care of that.&quot ; The next day, they&#039 ; d go down to the endoscopy unit for, for an endoscopy, and someone else would be there, and they&#039 ; d say, &quot ; Well, where&#039 ; s Dr. Bronner?&quot ; &quot ; Oh, is he your doctor?&quot ; &quot ; Yes, where is he?&quot ; &quot ; Um, well, I don&#039 ; t know, but I&#039 ; m here, um, let&#039 ; s just take care of this,&quot ; and they&#039 ; re sick, so they said okay. I found out about this kind of practice after my patient would come back to see me in the hospital, and say, &quot ; You didn&#039 ; t know I was in the hospital, did you?&quot ; Obviously not. Um--so this went on, we complained to the administration, uh, were always told, um, &quot ; Oh, we&#039 ; re really sorry, we&#039 ; ll fix it.&quot ; More and more, it didn&#039 ; t get fixed, and, so we didn&#039 ; t--we weren&#039 ; t told not to come back, we were kind of driven away by policy, and the same thing happened to the pulmonary doctors, uh, to the nephrologists, to where they pretty much had just University there, and that&#039 ; s a close alliance that they have now. CRANE: So what caused this change? BRONNER: Uh, that--the--I think times caused it, things changed. When I came to town, they were very big in a lot of areas. I think the--uh, the administration of the hospital--I think some of the people there, uh, were way ahead of the times and had some ideas, or way ahead of the times--they were doing hearts, which were very big then, and nobody else was doing anywhere near the number--they were doing hands, because of Dr. Kleinert, and they were an international hand center, and so it had, uh--it had international recognition for things that they were doing, and, um, there are a lot less hearts being done because of stent work now, and other places--well, they trained a lot of doctors who now have gone to other places who can do the same surgeries, so there are not that many hearts being done. Same thing with hands--they still have a great hand surgery, uh, service, but there are a lot of other places that do hands as well. Um, I think, uh, we began to do more and more outpatient work. Um, they had some--they had some infectious issues, which gave the hospital a shaky name for a while. Um, the location--the patient population, they had a--as many hospitals did, they had a unit that was--kind of like it was a hotel--after a surgery, I spent some time--it was very nice. Uh, the problem for the hospital was, it was very expensive to maintain, and to--to hold that unit, if the hospital was full--those were still hospital beds, so they had to be filled with whoever came in, even if you couldn&#039 ; t pay extra for the hospital bed, and they would have to staff it, uh, so ultimately that unit--that unit&#039 ; s closed, so again, it&#039 ; s kind of morphed more into a university hospital population, many of whom were on Passport, Medicaid--and the problem is that that doesn&#039 ; t pay enough to run a hospital. You know, you had to have more private patients to be able to run the hospital, and, uh, and so again, that got the hospital more in decline. They had a contract with the university, so the university was coming. The university didn&#039 ; t have the faculty to run University Hospital and Jewish Hospital, and they had people at Norton Hospital across the street, so, they&#039 ; d run off a lot of their private physicians by then, uh, now they&#039 ; ve sold out to KentuckyOne, which is primarily a Catholic-based hospital system. Uh, they&#039 ; ve lost a ton of money, um, I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s well run. Again, they&#039 ; ve chased people off, um, they&#039 ; ve not integrated well with the other hospital computer systems, um, they&#039 ; ve made it very hard to get records, very hard to practice there, and, I don&#039 ; t know if they&#039 ; ll survive--if the hospital itself will survive in its current state. I don&#039 ; t know what&#039 ; ll happen. CRANE: Let me see if I understand this. So, Jewish Hospital is now KentuckyOne. BRONNER: Correct. CRANE: And, the U of L hospital is separate, or--? BRONNER: Separate, but again, they&#039 ; re in a similar--same contracts, and they staff and work there-- CRANE: --with KentuckyOne-- BRONNER: --with KentuckyOne. But U of L still has their own hospital that they need to keep filled, so it&#039 ; s kind of a secondary place to be. CRANE: And so, what hospital do you practice out of, or do you utilize? BRONNER: We use our own surgery center for the last sixteen years for outpatients, and then we practice on Audubon Hospital--Norton Audubon Hospital. That&#039 ; s the only place we go, and we went from--when I started, we went to seven hospitals a day. Now, we go to one. CRANE: Jewish Hospital has, uh, made some changes over time, huh? BRONNER: They have, big changes. I don&#039 ; t think all good. CRANE: Um, tell me about any Jewish-related, unfriendly relationships you have had over the years as a practicing physician. BRONNER: Unfriendly relationships in the way of-- CRANE: Well, initially, if Jewish Hospital was established in the 1900s, 1903, in order to give Jewish physicians a place to practice, um, obviously that&#039 ; s changed, but, um, has there been any reason or any incidences that have made you feel uncomfortable, or that have caused you any concern as a Jewish physician practicing in any of the hospitals or any incidents, because--because in fact you were Jewish? BRONNER: I don&#039 ; t think so--as I started, there was--there was ever any concern relative to being in a certain hospital, and I practiced in Catholic hospitals, practiced in non-sectarian hospitals. I don&#039 ; t think I really had a problem. Maybe it was--maybe it was my specialty, which was lacking, um, and every so often I&#039 ; d have a patient say something about those Jewish doctors, and I had to tell them that their doctor was one of them, which made them somewhat red in the face, and apologetic, and most of them still came back, uh, so it didn&#039 ; t seem to make much difference, as long as you were a good doctor. Um, the doctor--the medical staff at Jewish Hospital, when I started, was not just Jewish doctors, it was pretty much across the board. Um, but I think one of the things that&#039 ; s changed greatly is, there was a very strong Jewish community bias towards going to Jewish Hospital. If you were Jewish, you wanted to go to Jewish Hospital, and now, if you&#039 ; re Jewish, that&#039 ; s probably one of the last places you want to go, unless your doctor goes there and they want you to go there. Frequently, even, with the hospital system, you won&#039 ; t see your doctor, so why go there? Um, most of--a lot of my patients live out in the East End, they want to go to the East End hospitals. They&#039 ; ll go usually wherever I direct them. If I want them at Audubon, which is somewhat midtown, they&#039 ; ll go there, um, but to get someone to go to Jewish, I don&#039 ; t--I have more people now say that they don&#039 ; t want to go there, um, but again, the Jewish community did--they all wanted to be there, and so that was something that was very specific, that&#039 ; s drastically changed over the years. Um, but from the standpoint of my practice, I really never felt any bias. If there was any, I wasn&#039 ; t aware of it. CRANE: Why do you think they don&#039 ; t want to go there now? BRONNER: Um, I think it&#039 ; s location. Uh, they don&#039 ; t want to go downtown, and in reality, in the last few years, with the bridge building, and street changes, um, parking, um, failure to upgrade in to single bedrooms--you know, you really--we&#039 ; re in a society where if I go to the hospital, I like to have privacy--I don&#039 ; t want to share a room with somebody whose twenty family members are traipsing across me, and spending the night making noise in my room. Um, they aren&#039 ; t very tolerant of that, and they want to go someplace where they don&#039 ; t have to have that, so, they really--you know, they fail to keep up with the times, and their answer was they couldn&#039 ; t run the hospital if they took their numbers down. Um, but they really couldn&#039 ; t run the hospital if they didn&#039 ; t. Um, they still have--they still have very ill patients. The problem is, with payment system as it is today, you lose money on very ill patients, so, very--I mean, we went through the transplants, and the heart transplants, and took care of them. Um, you lost a lot of money, but the fact that you could be on the national news every night, people wanted to go to Jewish Hospital then. That doesn&#039 ; t happen anymore. CRANE: I see. How has being raised Jewish, or how has--impacted your work as a physician, or has it? BRONNER: I think it impacted my work in that I wanted to work at Jewish Hospital. Uh, I would say that would be--that would be part of the reason. Uh, otherwise, I don&#039 ; t know why I would have picked there as my primary-- CRANE: Your mother didn&#039 ; t want a Jewish doctor? BRONNER: Well, that may be, yeah, that may be. She may have been whispering, &quot ; Go to Jewish Hospital.&quot ; I know she gave me doctor kits from the time I could walk, so, um, I think I did it with my kids. It--it ultimately worked with some of them. But, yeah. But, so--and the stepdaughter, so--one got stuck on dogs, so she ended up being the vet, so, but, but ultimately, um, you know, I uh--I think probably, um, it was what you were supposed to be growing up, and I think I wanted to be part of that community, but at the same time, it didn&#039 ; t really matter what community I was part of, I just wanted to do my job and do it well. CRANE: We talked a lot about different things, but I want to make sure that I&#039 ; ve given you every opportunity to share the stories that you hold dear. So, what have we left out, and what would you like to share--something that you were not specifically asked about? BRONNER: Oh, gosh, give me an area. You know, I mean, that&#039 ; s-- CRANE: I&#039 ; m not going to do that. BRONNER: You had to lead me into that one, because honestly, I, uh-- CRANE: Is there anything, um--any story that you would like to tell that we haven&#039 ; t covered that&#039 ; s important to you? BRONNER: I&#039 ; m sure there are many. I mean, I&#039 ; m not helping you here at this point, but, um, you know, I&#039 ; m sure there are many, but, uh, I can&#039 ; t come up with anything specific at this moment. CRANE: Looking back, is there anything that you would change about your relationship to Judaism? Other than joining a different club. BRONNER: Um, yeah--I think I&#039 ; d like to be a member of multiple clubs, as opposed to one. I think that was--I think my relationship, uh, broached early--I-- I think that my parents were probably wrong, they should have been more assertive in, uh--in pushing me toward being bar mitzvah, I think that might have given me a better understanding, and more involvement in, uh, in some parts of Judaism as I was younger, but again, I went to Reform synagogue, most of it was in English, I didn&#039 ; t see a reason to learn Hebrew, um, and, you know, if you go to other synagogues, it was, uh--it was, uh, you better know a little Hebrew. But, again, the Jewish prayers, I knew all those by rote. I didn&#039 ; t have to be able to read Hebrew to--to now those things, and to do those things, and I spent plenty of time in temple, but I think that--I think probably one of the things that, uh, would--uh, would be to be bar mitzvah. I think, uh, that&#039 ; s one of the things probably I would regret today. CRANE: You mean to have a bar mitzvah ceremony? BRONNER: No. I could care less about the ceremony. The ceremonies were nothing--the ceremony at the synagogue, I mean--when you say ceremony, it&#039 ; s become too social for me. Um, it was, I&#039 ; m going to study and have a ceremony and then I&#039 ; m going to have a big party. Uh, the parties--you know, it was a family thing, it was a badge of honor to do, and it was a religious honor to do. Uh, I&#039 ; m not sure it&#039 ; s the same today as it was then, so, that I would not like to do--uh, to study and learn more, I would like to do that. But I think we get wiser with age, too. CRANE: That&#039 ; s true. Mark, it&#039 ; s been a pleasure, and on behalf of this project, I thank you for your time and your support. BRONNER: Well, thank you. CRANE: And, as always, it&#039 ; s been lovely. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh422_jk041_bronner_ohm.xml 2016oh422_jk041_bronner_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh422_jk041_bronner_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mark Bronner, November 10, 2016 Description An account of the resource Mark Bronner discusses in detail his family genealogy, from his ancestors in Russia who immigrated to the U.S. and settled in Louisville, to later members of his family who held prominent positions in Louisville. He talks about his own childhood in Louisville and how it affected his Jewish identity. He talks about his education, his participation in Jewish clubs and social activities, and how the community has changed since his childhood. He discusses his college experience, medical school, his work as a gastroenterologist, and Louisville Jewish Hospital. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh422_jk041 Subject The topic of the resource Genealogy Holidays--Kentucky Religion Families. Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Louisville (Ky.) Childhood Education--Kentucky--Louisville College students--Religious life College students--Social conditions Jews--Identity. Medical education Physicians--Kentucky Hospitals--Administration Hospitals--Kentucky Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/91f716a3794815b2d260e781480c42e5.jpeg 90f72f518da31b4550b672593f66ccc0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Janice W. Fernheimer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tom Block Interview Keyword Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest I. W. Bernheim I.W. Bernheim Jewish businesspeople OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh406_jk040 Interview with Tom Block, October 21, 2016 2016oh406_jk040 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Forests and forestry. Arboretums. Families. Genealogy Jews--Kentucky Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest I. W. Bernheim I.W. Bernheim Jewish businesspeople Tom Block Janice W. Fernheimer 1:|11(15)|42(6)|57(16)|73(1)|109(11)|146(3)|168(11)|179(4)|218(15)|232(14)|244(1)|282(14)|307(4)|316(12) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253342664&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Trip to Bernheim Forest Where, where are you gonna take us? Tom Block and Janice Fernheimer are driving on their way to their first destination at the Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest. Block describes the extent of the forest, including its total 14,000 acres of land, 600 of which is part of the formally maintained arboretum. He also mentions the work that the Frederick Law Olmsted Firm did to organize and develop the arboretum since its founding by I.W. Bernheim. Arboretum ; Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest ; Bernheim Forest ; Frederick Law Olmsted Firm ; I. W. Bernheim Arboretums. ; Forests and forestry. 37.5547, -85.391 17 Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest https://bernheim.org/general-info/history/ History of the establishment of Bernheim Forest 116 Viewing of the forest from the Canopy Tree Walk So, we're now in the forest. Block has now taken the interview to the Canopy Tree Walk overlooking Bingham Valley, named after Barry Bingham. He starts to explain the extent of the damage that occurred in the forest before I. W. Bernheim came into the picture, including the discovery of iron ore deposits. Block also mentions the many trees that inhabit the forest and the first sighting of a black bear, nicknamed Bernie. Arboretum ; Barry Bingham ; Beech trees ; Bingham Valley ; Black bears ; Canopy Tree Walk ; Hardwood forests ; Hickory trees ; I. W. Bernheim ; Iron ore ; Iron Ore Trail ; Maple trees ; Oak trees ; Old-growth forests ; Poplar trees ; Smelters ; Sycamore trees Arboretums. ; Forests and forestry. 37.5547, -85.391 17 Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest https://bernheim.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ctw06.jpg Picture of the Canopy Tree Walk 348 I.W. Bernheim's gravesite Now we're gonna go down to the gravesite. As the interview begins to move to I.W. Bernheim's gravesite, Block explains that the park is trying to become more handicap accessible, citing an instance with a group from the Jewish Community Center in Louisville. As they arrive at the gravesite, he points out the significance of the towers representing both the Jewish synagogue and the Christian church, and describes his great-grandfather as being ecumenical. Barry Bingham ; Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest ; Christian churches ; Earth Measure ; Ecumenical ; Fanny Drefuss ; I. W. Bernheim ; Isaac Wolfe Bernheim ; Jewish synagogues ; Matt Weir ; Meadows ; Milkweed ; Monarch butterflies ; Olmsted ; Pollinators ; Sculptures ; WHAS ; Wildflowers Arboretums. ; Families. ; Forests and forestry. ; Genealogy ; Jews--Kentucky 37.5547, -85.391 17 Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest https://bernheim.org/programs/arts-in-nature-program/sculpture-in-the-arboretum/ Sculpture in the Arboretum 762 The Quiet Garden So here we are at the area called &quot ; The Quiet Garden.&quot ; At the last site of the interview, the Quiet Garden, Block shows a plaque dedicated by I.W. Burnham II to his father Bertram Bernheim. Bertram named his son after I.W. Bernheim, making him the Second. However, when Berheim II started becoming part of the banking industry, it was suggested to him to change his name, thus the last name Burnham. Block points out on the plaque that Burnham never removed his title as the Second, even though there was no I.W. Burnham the First. Bertram Bernheim ; I. W. Bernheim ; I. W. Burnham, II ; Quiet Garden Arboretums. ; Families. ; Forests and forestry. ; Genealogy ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jews--Kentucky 37.917700, -85.669480 17 The Quiet Garden in Bernheim Forest interview This extended interview with Tom Block takes place during a tour of the Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest, founded by his great-grandfather, Isaac W. Bernheim. Block first describes the extent of the Forest, which includes 600 acres of managed arboretum, while the rest of the 14,000 acres of land is “all natural forest”. The history before Bernheim developed the land was that of deforestation in two instances: the first being the settlement of Europeans in the area, and the second being the discovery of iron ore deposits [when?], leaving the land almost desolate before Bernheim came in to revitalize it {when}. He hired the Frederick Law Olmsted Firm to manage the architecture and landscape plans, and he officially established the Forest in 1929. Block mentions this[ref?] all from the Canopy Tree Walk overlooking the area called Bingham Valley, named after Barry Bingham, one of the first investors in Bernheim Forest. Block then moves the interview to I.W. Bernheim’s gravesite, explaining the significance of the sculptures Bernheim commissioned for his grave. One tower represents the Jewish synagogue, while the second represents the Christian church, showing the importance of equality in both religions. The interview ended in The Quiet Garden, where a plaque was placed by I.W. Burnham II, in honor of one of I.W. Bernheim’s sons, Bertram. FERNHEIMER: Where, where are you gonna take us? BLOCK: So we are now at Bernheim Forest, in--outside of Louisville. And Bernheim Forest has fourteen thousand acres, and of the fourteen thousand acres, six hundred are formal arboretum, designed by the Olmsted Firm, and the other nearly fourteen thousand acres are a natural area. So what we&#039 ; re doing now is we&#039 ; re gonna leave the arboretum, and we&#039 ; re going to go into the forest. And then--you have to put your seatbelt--we have to--you have to fasten your seatbelt. You&#039 ; re gonna hear this beeping noise. We&#039 ; re going to go into the natural area. As I tell people, you can see, when you leave, the arboretum, which is all maintained, and enter a natural area, which is not maintained. But you--there&#039 ; ll be a trailhead where we get off the trail--off--out of the car, too. We&#039 ; ll talk about. [Pause in recording.] FERNHEIMER: To think about how th--there is a, a bigger Jewish story-- BLOCK: --so I guess-- FERNHEIMER: --hiding (??)-- BLOCK: --his family went from Spain to Greece? FERNHEIMER: Um, I&#039 ; m not sure how they landed in Greece, but I&#039 ; m guessing somewhere along the line, there were descendants--they were in Rhodes, Greece, and then they ended up mostly in Alabama. -----------(??)---------- BLOCK: So we&#039 ; re talking--being filmed? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. It&#039 ; s so beautiful in the fall. BLOCK: Uh-huh. No, it is. So we&#039 ; re now in the forest. So as I said, we have over fourteen thousand acres. About six hundred acres is in an arboretum, which is maintained and formally planned, and then twelve thousand acres or more are in the forest. And this is the forest. So we are now at the end of what we call a canopy tree walk-- FERNHEIMER: --hmm-- BLOCK: --and at the end, we&#039 ; re seventy-five feet above the forest floor. We actually have a trail that winds around. You can actually walk right underneath the canopy tree walk, and so you can see the forest from the floor, and up here above the floor. So Bernheim is all the land you see. So all that ridge, and then far up there to the radio tower, and then mainly way behind us is where most of our twelve thousand acres are. And this land was actually harvested twice. First, the Europeans came and took the trees down for their fields and their houses and everything. Then the forest started to grow again, and they discovered iron ore. And in fact, this trail is called the Iron Ore Trail, and they took down the forest again so that we could--they could run their smelters. And so the trees you see now--so when my great-grandfather came here, this was pretty destroyed, bad land, and now we&#039 ; ve been maintaining it for ninety years, and so the trees are ninety to a hundred and ten years old. The naturalists tell me that, to be an old-growth forest, you have to be at least a hundred and fifty years old. So we&#039 ; re very excited that we&#039 ; ll be coming--we can see the day when this would be an old-growth forest. FERNHEIMER: When, when you move into that next level of old-growth forest, what does that bring, or-- BLOCK: --it just brings a level of, of stewardship. It just means that we have--from our point of view at the forest, I think we feel it demonstrates that we are--we have been good stewards of this land. Um, it&#039 ; s been in the local papers here in Louisville, here in the end of 2016, that, um, we&#039 ; ve had our first sighting of a brack--black bear. FERNHEIMER: I&#039 ; ve been following this in the news. BLOCK: And so the naturalists tell me that they--they&#039 ; re so excited, because black bears require a very good, sustainable environment to live in, and so we think that&#039 ; s the best sign of what a good steward we&#039 ; ve been of this fourteen thousand acres, that it can now attract and sustain a black bear. FERNHEIMER: And I know that there was a little bit of a contest involved with naming him? BLOCK: Right, right. FERNHEIMER: Where did--where did-- BLOCK: --so-- FERNHEIMER: --he end up-- BLOCK: --so-- FERNHEIMER: --is it he? BLOCK: It&#039 ; s a he-- FERNHEIMER: --okay. BLOCK: --and we can tell that. So we&#039 ; ve spotted--he was first spotted by a visitor down, um, by--in the arboretum, and now we have trail cameras all over the--in the forest, embedded in the forest, and we have spotted him in there. And those pictures were of high enough resolution that we could tell it was a he, and the winning name was Bernie. FERNHEIMER: Bernie. All right. Pretty good. BLOCK: Mr. Bernheim&#039 ; s name--nickname was actually Ike, from the Isaac. But, but anyway, that&#039 ; s--this is one of my favorite spots, because you have this beautiful view, and then the valley there is actually called Bingham Valley, because Barry Bingham of the Louisville Bingham family was a huge supporter and former president of the forest. FERNHEIMER: Oh. BLOCK: And so we named this--it&#039 ; s one of the few named areas in the forest, and we call it Bingham Valley. FERNHEIMER: And can you tell me a little bit about the trees that we&#039 ; re seeing-- BLOCK: --so the trees-- FERNHEIMER: --right there? BLOCK: --it&#039 ; s a hardwood forest. Most of the trees are either oak, maple, beech, hickory, and sycamore. So if you can identify tho--and, and, and, um, poplars. So if you can identify those six trees, you can probably identify eighty percent of all the trees in the forest. Now we&#039 ; re gonna go down to the gravesite. [Pause in recording.] F: Rolling. BLOCK: So this looks like a beech tree, uh, or a hickory tree, and you can tell from the bark and the leaf. FERNHEIMER: What is significant about the bark? BLOCK: Oh, so the--uh, the leaf looks very much like the beech, but it&#039 ; s--the bark is bark, and if we saw a beech, it would be very smooth. FERNHEIMER: Huh, okay. BLOCK: And this, I think, is an oak, and it looks like a white oak. And then this is a maple, because it&#039 ; s changing leaves already. I can just see. FERNHEIMER: The orange ones? BLOCK: Yeah, yeah. FERNHEIMER: It&#039 ; s beautiful. We have a big maple in our front yard. BLOCK: Uh-huh. This is -----------(??). So this is the, the trail to my great-grandfather&#039 ; s gravesite, and one of the things we&#039 ; ve done just in the past two years is we&#039 ; ve made it handicap-accessible. So this trail used to have steps, and now the steps aren&#039 ; t here. And actually, just a few weeks ago, we had the young adults group from the Jewish Community Center here in Louisville come, and there was one of the, uh, young people participating in that group who was handicapped and had an electric wheelchair, and so--unfortunately, we don&#039 ; t yet have a trail, but he could come and join us, and we have a wonderful picture of him sitting with, with us up at the top of this, uh, trail. And then we&#039 ; ve, we&#039 ; ve planted some nice specimen plants around here, too. FERNHEIMER: And these are all native Kentucky plants? BLOCK: No, some--basically native Kentucky. Some--they aren&#039 ; t all native. So again, this is our trail where we took out all the steps, and when we get to the top, we&#039 ; ll see both my great-grandfather&#039 ; s gravesite and then the beautiful meadow. So again, Isaac Wolfe Bernheim--you can see that his wife is there with the other tombstone, but no-- FERNHEIMER: --no recognition. BLOCK: No recognition that she&#039 ; s here. FERNHEIMER: Is her name on the tombstone at least? BLOCK: I think so. FERNHEIMER: (laughs) What was the name of his first wife? BLOCK: Fanny. That&#039 ; s-- FERNHEIMER: --Fanny-- BLOCK: --who&#039 ; s here. FERNHEIMER: Fanny. That was Fanny Dreyfus? BLOCK: Yes. FERNHEIMER: And then he later married her sister? BLOCK: Right. FERNHEIMER: Right? BLOCK: But that--but there&#039 ; s nothing about her. I don&#039 ; t, don&#039 ; t see anything anywhere about her. FERNHEIMER: So they weren&#039 ; t married for very long? BLOCK: No, no, no. So this is where my great-grandfather&#039 ; s buried. He commissioned this, uh, piece of sculpture, and he was, again, so very ecumenical, so one of these symbolizes a Christian church, and the other symbolizes a Jewish synagogue, and it&#039 ; s part of his story. And then both he and his wife are buried here, but again, as we were talking about, the story was Isaac and not Issac and Fanny, and so his--only his name is here, but you can see two grave markers, and so they&#039 ; re buried next to each other. So this is our first piece of art that he commissioned, and out in the field you can see our most recent piece of art, which is called Earth Measure. Uh--so this is--if you think of--are you recording? FERNHEIMER: Yeah. BLOCK: So if you think of Olmsted, we saw ponds, and we have ponds, but if you think of Central Park, which is probably his most famous work, there&#039 ; s the meadows, and then there&#039 ; s the rambles and the hills, and this is sort of those principles, super-sized. So we have a thirty-five-acre meadow, and we have the hills, and then to the side, which you can&#039 ; t see from this spot, we have our, our bodies of water. And then you can see, in the landscape, our, our newest piece of sculpture, which was done by a local artist named Matt Weir, a young man who&#039 ; s in town, and it&#039 ; s dedicated to Barry Bingham, and there&#039 ; s a big hole, which is supposed to be a camera lens, as Barry was a photographer. And there&#039 ; s a dish, a rock that&#039 ; s dug out like, like a satellite dish, because Barry, as head of WHAS, the local TV station that the Bingham family owned, went into satellite technology for their broadcasting. And then the meadow, we&#039 ; re trying to do several things. One, it&#039 ; s--our official title is Bernheim Re--Arboretum and Research Forest, so one of the research things we do here is about a quarter of, of the meadow, we burn each year. And as you look at it from here, you can see it&#039 ; s all meadow and very few trees. If you think about it, if nature just did its thing here, this would all be forest. So this is the arboretum. This is where we manage the land, and here what we&#039 ; re trying to manage is making it into this beautiful meadow. We&#039 ; re also planting pollinators and milkweed, and hopefully this will become a, a way station for the monarch butterfly, which is endangered, as their habitat is being taken away, and we would like to make this part of the stopping point as they fly from Mexico to the northern United States and Canada. And so we have--and we have gotten some supporters to help us put wildflowers in it, and you can begin to see the beautiful grasses, the beautiful flowers, and it&#039 ; s one of my favorite spots at Bernheim. [Pause in recording.] FERNHEIMER: Okay. BLOCK: We are in Indian Hills. FERNHEIMER: Okay, sure. BLOCK: Right off of Brownsboro Road. So we are very--so the--you know, we--when we lived in New York, we could never afford a nice house. My wife is an artist and she could never have her studio. FERNHEIMER: And now you&#039 ; ve got-- BLOCK: --and now we--right-- FERNHEIMER: --this beautiful house-- BLOCK: --yeah-- FERNHEIMER: --lovely neighborhood. BLOCK: Yeah. So we are very happy here. And our house in Florida is very nice, but it&#039 ; s very small compared to--I mean, it&#039 ; s a small house. But it&#039 ; s very, very well-designed. And it&#039 ; s two blocks from the ocean. FERNHEIMER: Wow. BLOCK: Surrounded by a nature preserve. FERNHEIMER: -----------(??). BLOCK: So the staff has done a won--so we had our, our-- FERNHEIMER: But I mean, like, I.W. and his--and -----------(??) were they-- BLOCK: --no. Oh, no, they were--they-- FERNHEIMER: --interred here or were they interred somewhere else -----------(??)? BLOCK: They were originally interred in Cave Hill. FERNHEIMER: Okay. That&#039 ; s what I thought. -----------(??)----------- it&#039 ; s really beautiful. BLOCK: So here we are at the area called the Quiet Garden, and it&#039 ; s one of my f--another one of my favorite spots. And over here, in the story of Bertram had the son he named after Mr. Bernheim, Isaac W. Bernheim II, who changed his name to I--Isaac I.W. Burnham. So the gravestone says I.W. Burnham II, and if you come over here--so this is the water. This is our lake. So again, fitting into the Olmsted plans of combining meadows and hills and water, this is our main water feature. And here&#039 ; s a plaque where Mr. Burnham dedicated this garden to his father, and it says, &quot ; Placed here in memory of his--by his son, I.W. Burnham II.&quot ; But of course, we know there was no I.W. Burnham the First. So it&#039 ; s really because he&#039 ; s named after our founder, my great-grandfather, I.W. Bernheim, but it says here--and you can see his father was Bertram Bernheim. So the only person who changed his name was Burnham as--but, um, Isaac&#039 ; s other son, Palmer, also changed his name to Burnham. So there are Burnham descendants from Palmer, and there are Burnham descendants from, uh, from, from, from Bertram. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh406_jk040_block_ohm.xml 2016oh406_jk040_block_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh406_jk040_block_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tom Block, October 21, 2016 Description An account of the resource This extended interview with Tom Block takes place during a tour of the Bernheim Arboretum and Research Forest, founded by his great-grandfather, Isaac W. Bernheim. Block first describes the extent of the Forest, which includes 600 acres of managed arboretum, while the rest of the 14,000 acres of land is “all natural forest”. The history before Bernheim developed the land was that of deforestation in two instances: the first being the settlement of Europeans in the area, and the second being the discovery of iron ore deposits [when?], leaving the land almost desolate before Bernheim came in to revitalize it {when}. He hired the Frederick Law Olmsted Firm to manage the architecture and landscape plans, and he officially established the Forest in 1929. Block mentions this[ref?] all from the Canopy Tree Walk overlooking the area called Bingham Valley, named after Barry Bingham, one of the first investors in Bernheim Forest. Block then moves the interview to I.W. Bernheim’s gravesite, explaining the significance of the sculptures Bernheim commissioned for his grave. One tower represents the Jewish synagogue, while the second represents the Christian church, showing the importance of equality in both religions. The interview ended in The Quiet Garden, where a plaque was placed by I.W. Burnham II, in honor of one of I.W. Bernheim’s sons, Bertram. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh406_jk040 Subject The topic of the resource Forests and forestry. Arboretums. Families. Genealogy Jews--Kentucky Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/1ced90e94c87a761770f000c82bb5722.jpeg 0e60bd314ee12b1dda57bc82974ac987 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Carol Ely Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Switow Interview Keyword Standard Club Standard Country Club Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence (JHFE) College students--Social conditions Universities and colleges--Administration. Universities and colleges--Finance Immigrants--Kentucky Holidays--Kentucky Hospitals--Administration OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh403_jk038 Interview with Mark Switow, September 20, 2016 2016oh403_jk038 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Genealogy Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Religion Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Louisville (Ky.) Childhood Discrimination. Families. Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Judaism Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Standard Club Standard Country Club Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence (JHFE) College students--Social conditions Universities and colleges--Administration. Universities and colleges--Finance Immigrants--Kentucky Holidays--Kentucky Hospitals--Administration Mark Switow Carol Ely 1:|30(13)|49(9)|88(14)|111(5)|129(15)|156(13)|180(3)|195(7)|219(5)|253(7)|279(3)|303(2)|327(9)|355(14)|369(10)|390(2)|407(6)|427(11)|442(11)|461(2)|485(10)|499(13)|520(3)|536(8)|568(2)|595(5)|616(6)|645(5)|669(9)|699(2)|716(7)|729(9)|745(9)|763(3)|781(13)|796(1)|812(2)|828(4)|852(7)|878(3)|902(1)|921(3)|935(11)|952(18) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253332751&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family background and migration to Kentucky Okay, I'm Carol Ely. I'm here with Mark Switow for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, sponsored by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Switow, born in 1958 in Louisville to Maxine Rudman Switow and Irvine Bloom &quot ; Sonny&quot ; Switow. His siblings are Arlene and Michael. He discusses how his family came to Kentucky and how he learned more about his familial origins after reading his great-grandfather's autobiography about being a Russian immigrant who moved around the U.S. in the 19teens until settling in Paducah, Kentucky and then Louisville. Great-grandparents Michael and Annie Switow arrived in the U.S. in the 19teens. His mother's family is from northeast U.S. 1910s ; Annie Switow ; Arlene Switow ; Autobiography ; Great-grandfathers ; Irvine Bloom &quot ; Sonny&quot ; Switow ; Maxine Rudman Switow ; Michael Switow ; Russian ; Siblings Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Paducah (Ky.) 37.072222, -88.6275 17 Paducah (Ky.) 233 Family involvement in the entertainment and concession business Well, one of your ancestors was an important part of establishing an industry in Louisville. Switow discusses his family's influence on the movie theater industry in Southern Indiana and Kentucky. His family founded and ran the Vogue Theater, The South Park, Rialto Theater, and The Kentucky Theatre, among others. He mentions the resulting theater food concessions business his father started which expanded to parks and sports settings. Mark Switow worked in his father's business as a youth but his father advised him against the business when Switow was 21. He explains why the Switow family is no longer involved with this industry. His father sold the business to Eddy Goldberg. Cousins, the Saag family, took over part of the movie theater business. Candy ; Coca-Cola ; Coke ; Concessions ; Dads ; Downtown ; Drive-in theaters ; Eddy Goldberg ; Fathers ; Grandfathers ; Great-uncles ; Movies ; Multiplexes ; Paper goods ; Popcorn ; Rialto Theater ; Saag family ; Soda ; Southern Indiana ; The Kentucky Theatre ; The South Park ; Theaters ; Vogue Theater Jewish businesspeople ; Lexington (Ky.). ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Small business--Kentucky ; Small business--Ownership 38.044, -84.495 17 The Kentucky Theatre, located in downtown Lexington (Ky.) http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/340 Some photos, a brief description, and the location of the Vogue Theater in Louisville is available in the link. 611 Family involvement at Adath Jeshurun and transition into the Temple Well, to, um, st, stay in the past a little bit, um, your great-gran, grandfather also was very involved in Adath Jeshurun synagogue. Switow discusses how his grandfather was very involved at Adath Jeshurun, as well as his parents. His father was on the board of trustees and his mother was involved in the sisterhood while also participating with the National Council of Jewish Women. He mentions that his interfaith marriage resulted in he and his family moving membership to the Temple in 2010. Adath Israel Temple ; Adath Jeshurun ; Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Board of Trustees ; Fathers ; Grandfathers ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Mothers ; National Council of Jewish Women ; Religious conversion ; Religious services ; Sisterhood ; Sunday school ; Switow Chapel ; Synagogues Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Marriage ; Religion 38.228, -85.684 17 Adath Jeshurun Synagogue in Louisville (Ky.) 818 Growing up in a Jewish family And, uh, in your family, growing up, um, what was your Jewish life like? Switow discusses his routine as child. He mentions Friday dinners at his grandparents', lighting candles, and having kiddush downtown. Every Sunday his family met at Mario's Pizza. Saturday morning they went to synagogue for Shabbat services. He was also involved with the Jewish Community Center and youth clubs for sports especially. Brothers ; Candles ; Downtown ; Grandparents ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Kiddush ; Sisters ; Sports ; Synagogues ; Youth clubs Childhood ; Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225404, -85.650386 17 Jewish Community Center in Louisville (Ky.) 923 Involvement in the Jewish Community Center when growing up Right. The clubs were very important in that era-- Switow discusses his time spent at the Jewish Community Center and how it served as place for Jewish kids from all over the city to gather. He mentions his involvement in the sports clubs at the center including football, softball, and basketball. Atherton High School ; Athletics ; Ballard High School ; Basketball ; Clubs ; Football ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Socials ; Softball ; Sunday school ; Sundays ; Wagner High School Childhood ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225404, -85.650386 17 Jewish Community Center in Louisville (Ky.) 1028 Friendships and division among Jewish kids Do you feel like your circle of friends was mostly, um, Jewish kids that you knew from, uh, from the clubs? Switow discusses how there was a division between Jewish students from the East End that went to the Standard Country Club and Ballard High School, and those from the Highlands that went to the Jewish Community Center. Switow mentions how his involvement at these centers gained him many Jewish friends, but he still had non-Jewish friends from school and sports clubs. Ballard High School ; Conflicts ; East End ; Friends ; Highlands ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Standard Country Club Childhood ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.283439, -85.625243 17 Ballard High School in Louisville (Ky.) 1075 Standard Country Club and club discrimination Uh, you mentioned the Standard Club. Can you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be a kid and have access to that-- Switow discusses how the Standard Country Club was started in 1875 in response to the antisemitism often occurring in other country clubs. He talks about how the club started with just golfing. He tells a story about his uncle's golf prowess. Sam, Harry, and Fred Switow helped move the Club to its present location and expanded it from a golf course to include more facilities. The Club existed because of discrimination against Jews in the past that limited professional and social access. Anti-Semitism ; Country clubs ; Fred Switow ; Golf ; Golf courses ; Harry Switow ; Sam Switow ; Standard Club ; Standard Country Club ; Uncles Discrimination. ; Families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.293229, -85.597668 17 Standard Country Club, Louisville (Ky.) http://www.standardclub.net/ The Standard Country Club's official website, which includes information about the club's history, location, and facilities. 1197 Preservation and the future of Standard Country Club I'm going to jump ahead in time, and then we'll go back again. Switow discusses his hopes for the Standard Country Club to serve as a center for the Jewish community. He mentions the facilities and activities available there including golf courses, swimming, and fishing Community centers ; Debts ; Fishing ; Golf ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Preservation ; Standard Club ; Standard Country Club ; Swimming ; Tennis Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.)--Buildings, structures, etc. 38.293229, -85.597668 17 Standard Country Club, Louisville (Ky.) http://www.standardclub.net/ The Standard Country Club's official website, which includes information about the club's history, location, and facilities. 1354 College and Jewish life in South Carolina and at the University of Kentucky So now we're going to talk about you again, and go back in time. So, uh, where did you go to college? Switow discusses how he was a &quot ; C&quot ; college student who first attended school in South Carolina in 1976-77 and proceeded to transfer to the University of Kentucky. He discusses how UK and other colleges in Kentucky lacked a significant Jewish population which resulted in Kentucky Jewish students going to out of state schools such as Indiana University, which had strong Jewish student organizations. He acknowledges the increase in Jewish student activity at University of Kentucky now. Campus life ; Hillel ; Indiana University ; South Carolina ; University of Kentucky College environment ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Lexington. ; Universities and colleges. 38.033333, -84.5 17 University of Kentucky http://kyhillel.org/ The Kentucky Hillel website. Kentucky Hillel is a Jewish student organization at the University of Kentucky. 1476 Involvement with state colleges in Kentucky and introducing the Heritage Fund Have you stayed involved with UK, and, uh, you, you seem familiar with what's going on there now. Are you-- Swtiow discusses being on the Advisory Council at University of Kentucky's College of Arts and Sciences, as well as being on a board at the University of Louisville. He mentions his role in introducing the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence to these colleges and his hope to introduce this fund to other colleges in the state because it's important to introduce Judaism to those who don't know about Jews. Board of trustees ; Grants ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence (JHFE) ; Kentucky ; Morehead University ; Proposals ; Scholarships ; University of Kentucky ; University of Louisville ; Western Kentucky University College environment ; College students--Religious life ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Universities and colleges--Administration. ; Universities and colleges--Finance ; Universities and colleges. 38.033333, -84.5 17 University of Kentucky https://jewishheritagefund.com/ The website for the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. 1591 Interfaith marriage and family life Um, okay, so when and how did you meet your wife? Switow discusses meeting his wife, Tammy, having an interfaith marriage, and being a father and step-father to Tammy's children from her first marriage. He mentions how he and his wife chose to raise their children Ryan, Sam, and Katie as Jewish and continue to celebrate both Jewish and Christian holidays. Switow describes himself as a &quot ; C&amp ; ampE Christian&quot ; - Christmas and Easter but Jewish in practice. &quot ; C&amp ; ampE Christian&quot ; ; &quot ; Convenient Jews&quot ; ; Bar mitzvahs ; Bat mitzvahs ; Candles ; Children ; Christmas ; Easter ; Family ; Fathers ; Hanukkah ; Husbands ; Katie ; Passover ; Rosh Hashana ; Ryan ; Sam ; Seder ; Tammy ; Wife Families. ; Holidays--Kentucky ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 17 1725 Affiliation with Jewish Hospital, negotiations with Catholic Health Initiatives, and contribution to Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Um, switching topics, now. Uh, your family's been affiliated with Jewish Hospital for a long time too, I believe. Switow discusses his family's involvement with the Jewish Hospital (Sam, Harry, and Fred) and his position on the Board of Trustees from 1986. He discusses current responsibilities for fundraising and grants. He discusses the hospital's merger with Catholic Health Initiatives and the similarities in initiatives between the two medical centers. He mentions his role in establishing the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence through merger negotiations that allowed millions of dollars to go into the Heritage Fund. As a result, the Fund supports grants to medical research and Jewish initiatives. He explains ethical religious directives (ERDs) and agreement between the Jewish and Catholic foundation boards on 78 of 80 ERDs. Abortion ; Catholic Health Initiatives ; Ethical religious directives ; Foundation boards ; Fred Switow ; Fund-raising ; Grants ; Harry Switow ; Healthcare ; Hospitals ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Jewish Hospital ; KentuckyOne Health ; Medical research ; Mergers ; Negotiations ; Saint Joseph Health System (SJHS) ; Sam Switow ; Stem cell research Catholicism ; Families. ; Hospitals--Administration ; Hospitals--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.kentuckyonehealth.org/body.cfm?id=18&amp ; action=detail&amp ; ref=174 Information about the merger between Jewish Hospital and Catholic Health Initiatives from the KentuckyOne Health news page. 2057 Impact of the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence and its future And, uh, how do you see the fund having an impact on the community in the future, and what, what are your broad goals for it? Switow discusses how the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence has allowed for many services to be offered in the Jewish community, such as senior busing and after school programs. He talks about how he hopes for the fund to contribute to a larger change, such as a merger between the Jewish Community Center and the Standard Country Club. Community ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Standard Country Club Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) https://jewishheritagefund.com/ The website for the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. 2137 Change in the Jewish community in Louisville, Kentucky So, um, looking at the Jewish community in Louisville today, there's certainly challenges, and there are certainly issues. How do you see the community having changed or evolved over your lifetime? Switow discusses changes he's seen in the Jewish community, including closure of the Jewish Day School. He mentions how there has been more Reform, how many are becoming more tolerant of interfaith relationships, and how there is decreased antisemitism in the general community. He also talks about how the Jewish population has decreased in Louisville due to the youth population moving to metropolitan areas, but now technology is able to counter this. He sees possibilities for the return of Jews to Louisville as the economy shifts. He sees the Jewish Community Center as a possible magnet for this. Anti-Semitism ; Community ; Discrimination ; Interfaith marriages ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Jewish Day School ; Millennials ; Reform ; Social divisions ; Technology Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-population-in-the-united-states-by-state Data from the U.S. Census Bureau about Jewish populations by state from 1899 to 2015. 2365 Experiences with anti-Semitism Um, have you had experiences with antisemitism in Louisville in your personal or professional life? Switow discusses how he experienced antisemitism growing up, and how he still faces it sometimes, but less overtly. He mentions how he's in financial management and how his clients are both Jewish and non-Jewish. Anti-Semitism ; Financial management Childhood ; Discrimination. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2420 Involvement of Jewish members in the Louisville community Um, have, have you seen other, uh, changes in the community in the way Jews interact in the world? Switow discusses how the Jewish community used to be involved just through the Jewish Community Center, Standard Club, the Synagogue, the Temples, the Jewish Hospital, and through other Jewish organizations. Now, he mentions, the Jewish population is involved in more than just the Jewish community and can be found in an array of organizations, clubs, and leadership roles offering many different services. Baptist Hospital ; Community ; Community service ; Country clubs ; Grandparents ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish Hospital ; Norton Hospital ; Parents ; Synagogues ; University of Kentucky Families. ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Volunteers 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) https://www.jewishlexington.org/ The website for the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass. 2491 Religion and spirituality of the Jewish community Well, I have run through my list of questions. Switow discusses the difference between religion and spirituality and describes himself as more spiritual. He also describes the Jewish community as becoming more spiritual. While there still are many Jews who are involved religiously, Switow believes that the Jewish community has a larger spiritual presence that isn't accurately represented by the level of attendance at the Synagogue or the Temple. He does turn to his rabbi on personal matters. He says that treating everyone better than you want to be treated yourself is a core value. Community ; Membership ; Rabbis ; Religious services ; Spirituality ; Strength ; Values Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/jewish/ Data collected about Jewish populations in the United States presented by the Pew Research Center. Information includes frequency of attendance at religious services. interview Mark Switow, born in 1958 in Louisville, Kentucky, grew up in a family of Jewish entrepreneurs and Jewish community leaders. Switow’s grandfather and great-uncles started M. Switow &amp ; Sons, an entertainment business throughout Southern Indiana and Kentucky. Switow’s father Irvin was also involved in the family’s concession supply business, Standard Vendors. Switow grew up in Louisville’s Adath Jeshurun Synagogue. He describes youth activities at the Louisville Jewish Community Center and the mixed Jewish and non-Jewish social circles he grew up in. He also discusses the development of the Standard Country Club for the Jewish community in response to the antisemitism of other private clubs and his recent desire to preserve the club as another center for the Jewish community. Switow served on the foundation board of the Jewish Hospital from 1996 to 2002 and on the full board from 2000 to 2012. From the merger and sale of Jewish Hospital, Switow and other Jewish Hospital board members created the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. ELY: Hey. I&#039 ; m Carol Ely, I&#039 ; m here with Mark Switow for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, sponsored by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. It&#039 ; s September 20th, 2016. Thank you for agreeing to do this interview, Mark. Uh-- SWITOW: It&#039 ; s an honor, my pleasure. ELY: I appreciate your coming down. So we&#039 ; ll start with just some basic personal questions that I&#039 ; m sure you will know the answers to, like when and where were you born? SWITOW: Jewish Hospital in Louisville, Kentucky, 1958. ELY: Jewish Hospital. Good start for a Jewish boy in Kentucky. SWITOW: (laughs) It was. There weren&#039 ; t--there weren&#039 ; t a whole lot of choices then where you were going to be born. ELY: And, uh, what were your parents&#039 ; names and occupations at that point? SWITOW: S--Sure. So Maxine Rudman Switow, uh, originally from, uh, Richmond, Virginia, married, uh, Irvin Bloom, better known as Sonny Switow. And, uh, dad was born and raised here in Louisville. He went to Male High School. ELY: And, uh, did you have brothers and sisters growing up? SWITOW: I do. I did, and-- ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: --uh, they&#039 ; re both still with us. Um, my sister Arlene is two years older, and she lives out west in Colorado. And my brother Michael is nine years my junior, and he lives in Singapore. ELY: Oh. SWITOW: Neither one of them have ever come back to Kentucky since leaving, uh, for college. ELY: So just to take it back a bit, and then we&#039 ; ll come to your own story, tell me about the first members of your family that you know about who came to Kentucky or came to Louisville. SWITOW: OK. So there was Michael and Annie Switow. And Michael Switow actually wrote a thirty-seven-page autobiography about how he ended up in Louisville. Uh, so here, you have a Russian--um, and she was a Ger--uh, a Polish immigrant, to come to--to the States. And of all things, back in the &#039 ; 30s, they zigzagged throughout the Midwest. He was in St. Louis, he was in Paducah, Kentucky in the &#039 ; 30s, um, and he, I think when I last counted, through is thirty-seven-page autobiography, he probably had thirty-five to forty-five different jobs that he did over that course of his lifetime. ELY: This is your great-great-grandfather? SWITOW: My great-great--do I have that right? My great-grandfather. ELY: Great-grandfather. Right. Great---great-grandfather. SWITOW: Yes. Yes. ELY: So this was in the nineteenth century. This is way back? SWITOW: Well, no, this was in the, you know, 1930s we&#039 ; re talking. Yes. ELY: Oh, OK. OK. SWITOW: Yes. ELY: So he was zigzagging through here. But there&#039 ; s, um, uh, a story from someone in your family about growing up in Russia and about the poverty in Russia. Is that a story you&#039 ; re familiar with? SWITOW: Just from that autobiography. So just to correct myself-- ELY: --OK-- SWITOW: --that was actually the 1910s and &#039 ; 20s-- ELY: --OK-- SWITOW: --of when he came over. Um, and so he was the one that wrote that story, his autobiography there, um, which again, I have a copy of, and read--have read--read that to my kids at their bar or bat mitzvah as part of the excerpts from there. Really proud of that. ELY: Do you remember any great stories? SWITOW: Just that, you know, I just still can&#039 ; t imagine how someone of Jewish descent ends up in Paducah, Kentucky, um, in the 1910s. I mean, um, and how he ended up outside of the New York, you know, metropolitan south--you know, East--East Coast, ended up in the South is--is really a headscratcher. But I think a lot of it had to do with the direction of the railroad, how they ended up-- ELY: --mm-- SWITOW: --uh, being, uh, different parts in s--uh, of the country there. ELY: Did you know your great-grandfather personally? Did he live long enough? -----------(??) SWITOW: No. Unh-unh. He did not. My brother Michael was named after him, and, uh, I knew very little about him until we discovered this autobiography. ELY: And, uh, any other stories of your family coming, or your great-grandmother, or anyone on the other side of the family? Do you know where they came from in Europe? SWITOW: I don&#039 ; t. Um, my mom&#039 ; s side, uh, has, I think, roots going back more into the Northeast and the New York Area. And I don&#039 ; t know where they came from, uh, you know, when they came over on the boat. ELY: Well, one of your ancestors was an important part of establishing an industry in Louisville. Do you have, uh, any stories about the, uh-- SWITOW: Yeah, so that&#039 ; s the movie theater industry. ELY: --right-- SWITOW: The entertainment industry. So there were two parts of the family business that on the movie theater side, uh, throughout not just the Louisville area, but Southern Indiana throughout the state of Kentucky, the family was involved in drive-in theaters. Uh, best-known in our area was the Kentucky movie theater, the Vogue, the South Park in Preston Drive-Ins, then across the river, um, there was the, um, Rialto, I want to say. And then over in Lexington was the Row (??) and also the Kentucky Theater. And what I remember most was the marquee for the Kentucky still exists today on 4th Street. And my grandfather and two great-uncles&#039 ; offices were on the second floor there, cluttered with paper everywhere. And there was no filing system. Certainly no computers, as we know. But if you open up the window some, you could a--could actually sneak out on top of the marquee there as traffic was going up and down 4th Street there. That&#039 ; s one of my favorite memories of that. And being that it&#039 ; s still there today, because they&#039 ; ve converted that into a restaurant, which I&#039 ; ve been to a couple times, I get a smile on my face, good memories of, uh, fifty-plus--fifty-five years ago, being up on that, uh--on that sign. ELY: And it was your uncles who were running it? Uh, your-- SWITOW: --my great-uncles? Yes-- ELY: --great-uncles. SWITOW: Uh, so Fred was my grandfather-- ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: --and he was the youngest of the three brothers. And then Harry--uh, and then Sam was the oldest. And Sam ruled the family. It was his way or no other way. Uh, and-- ELY: S--did you work in the theaters as a child, or-- SWITOW: No. So what I worked on is there--the side of the business that spawned off of that was what my dad ran, which was the concession supply business. So when Dad first developed this business with the help of Fred, uh, the business was designed to get concessions into all of our theaters--popcorn, candy, uh, Coke dispenser products, um, the paper goods that went along with it. And then they sort of, uh, s--you know, broadened that business out into Little League parks and swim clubs and the sort. So we had, uh, snow cone machines, cotton candy machines, caramel apple machines, and so forth. Uh, so we were really a drop-ship place. So they&#039 ; d take M&amp ; M&#039 ; s or Snickers. They would have a truck, and in my earlier days, I&#039 ; d help unload that truck onto palettes, and we&#039 ; d keep it in an air-conditioned warehouse, because it had to be air conditioned if you have chocolates in the middle of the summertime in Louisville, Kentucky, otherwise your products are going to melt and your inventory&#039 ; s gone. Um, and so that--that&#039 ; s really the side of the business that Dad worked and moved it much beyond just the family theaters, and that&#039 ; s where I worked. ELY: So as part of the industry from the very beginning, I think one of your--um, your great-grandfather was the first to put up a sheet in the back of his store in Jeffersonville? Does this sound familiar? And show films there, and then that became building theaters, and then it sounds like that then moved into the concessions business. SWITOW: That&#039 ; s right. ELY: So every aspect of it was part of your family. SWITOW: That&#039 ; s right. ELY: Was there an expectation that you would be part of the family business? SWITOW: Good question. Um, never had any pressure on us to follow in those footsteps. Uh, in fact, I really wanted to. And one of the best pieces of advice my dad ever gave me was--or, uh, just decisions, no. Because what he saw, the handwriting on the wall was think of it that he was a drop-ship place. So this was before the multiplex screened, uh, theaters that come in, you know, that really have caught the country, you know, by storm. You can&#039 ; t--you don&#039 ; t have neighborhood one-screeners anymore. You have sixteen screens, and they&#039 ; re owned by national conglomerates. So what do those national conglomerates get to do? They have buying power, so they could go directly to Coca-Cola, directly to M&amp ; M&#039 ; s, and to Snickers, and to all those products, and they could get drop-ship for their particular theaters all over the country. Somewhere like the Walmart kind of theory, or Costco. So the middle guy, Dad, his business was getting squeezed, and he saw that handwriting on the wall. And when I was twenty-one or so, I really was anxious to try and work with my dad. And he gave me the pushback, and that was probably the best thing he ever recommended I do business-wise of my life, because I would have been involved in a business that he ended up selling to paper products, which was--was run by Eddie Goldberg. Um, and Eddie bought something, that if you look, think of a chart, this business was doing this. It was there about when Dad sold. It was going to go end up there. So that&#039 ; s why I did not get in the family business. ELY: So did your uncles and cousins continue to try to run the theaters? Or did they also see the handwriting on the wall? SWITOW: Well, the theaters were winding down. Um, and then, uh, there were different small partnerships that the Sags (??), which were cousins of ours, helped to develop, and the Switows were involved. For instance, the Village 8 movie theaters, which just recently closed in the last year, or opened up over in Dupont. And so there were different family partnerships that were run. But Dad was more of a passive than an active partner in those. ELY: And also, the Vogue was your family? That was-- SWITOW: --the Vogue center, yes-- ELY: --until what, fifteen years ago or so? SWITOW: Gosh, I lose track. I bet you it&#039 ; s been longer than that, though, since it&#039 ; s been closed down and turned into that little strip center there. But everybody still, I think that&#039 ; s been around Louisville long enough refers to it as we&#039 ; re the Vogue--the Vogue center. ELY: That&#039 ; s a Louisville thing. You refer to thing--places by what used to be there. SWITOW: And homes by who--who the original homeowner was. ELY: Which is a little hard on newcomers, but yes. (laughs) SWITOW: Yes. ELY: But your family&#039 ; s theaters were an important part of the memories of a lot of people in Louisville. They regret the days that those neighborhood theaters closed. So, uh, it&#039 ; s, um-- SWITOW: Carol, I was everybody&#039 ; s best friend when we started dating on Saturday nights, because double date with me, we&#039 ; d go to the movies for free. ELY: Ah. Yeah. Did you spend a lot of time in the movies as a kid? SWITOW: We did. Oh yeah. It--the hardest thing, I think, for me was, um, realizing that when we sold the theaters, that I actually had to pay to go see one. ELY: Yes. It&#039 ; s true. It&#039 ; s true. Do you still have movies as a big part of your life? SWITOW: It is. It&#039 ; s a passionate part of my life. ELY: --mm-- SWITOW: Love them. And thankfully, my wife does as well. ELY: Do you have any fingers still in the industry, as an investor, or anything? SWITOW: Not a single--other than emotional. Nothing. ELY: Um-hm. So an era passed. SWITOW: It did. Yeah. ELY: It did. Well, to, um, st--stay in the past a little bit, um, your great-gran--grandfather also was very involved in Adath Jeshurun synagogue. SWITOW: --um-hm-- ELY: Is your family still associated with AJ? No? SWITOW: You know, um, Mom and Dad were the last members there. So as things transitioned, um, not necessarily a wonderful memory, but when I decided to marry someone who was not of the faith and, uh, just didn&#039 ; t go well on--on how it was presented for the conversion process or not, that we found that, uh, the Temple was a better spot for us as--as Reform. And so when Dad passed in 2010, Mom made the decision that she&#039 ; d rather to go services with us at the Temple, so she terminated her membership as well there. ELY: --yeah-- SWITOW: So 2011 was about the last time there--there was a Switow that was a member and involved in Adath Jeshurun. ELY: So growing up, though, you were a member of Adath Jeshurun? SWITOW: I was, yeah. ELY: And did you live in the Highlands neighborhood, then? No? SWITOW: No, so we have always lived off of Brownsboro Road. So we were part of that East End group that moved out that way. And it wasn&#039 ; t convenient at all for us to go there, quite frankly, when you think about it. I mean, traffic was nothing like it is today, but it was still twenty minutes round trip to go there. And so if you think about, we were there on, you know, a lot of Saturdays for services, went back on Sundays for Sunday School. And then when you got to the educational years for bar and bat mitzvah for my--my sister and my brother and I. Um, some of the lessons were taught at the Jewish Community Center, but many were back over at Adath Jeshurun. So all Mom was doing, if I think about it, was she was a taxi service. ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: And, you know, so it&#039 ; s forty minutes round trip, and doing it twice a day, or, you know, two times, they drop us off, pick us up, go back and forth. It was really, uh, um, a sacrifice on her part to--to take us back and forth over there. ELY: Were your parents, um, active in the synagogue? Or did they have other roles in the Jewish community, board memberships and so forth? SWITOW: So Dad did a stint at one point, uh, vice president, uh, on the board of trustees at Adath Jeshurun. I know that my grandfather Fred and great-uncle Sam and Harry were both active on--on the boards there as well. Um, there was Switow Chapel that I was always proud of, that was at AJ. And I think when they did their last round of renovations, it came--push came to shove. It&#039 ; s money. And they were looking to raise money, and they wanted a significant amount to keep that name on there, and the moment had passed. ELY: Um-hm. And was your mother active in the synagogue or organizations? SWITOW: She was really active in the sisterhood over there. Uh, but, you know, at that point, if you think back then, Carol, I don&#039 ; t think there were women on the boards at--at the synagogues-- ELY: --probably not-- SWITOW: --particularly in the Conservative or Orthodox. So, uh, she was active in the sisterhood, though. ELY: Was she part of any other groups in the community? National Council of Jewish Women, or Hadassah? SWITOW: She was really active in the National Council of Jewish Women, and now I&#039 ; m going to rack my brain. She was active, Carol, in the suicide hotline group. I mean, that was--something that was a passion of hers for--for many years outside of the Jewish community. ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: And I wish I&#039 ; d written a few things--things down, because I know there&#039 ; s others-- ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: --and I&#039 ; m shortchanging her by not remembering right now. ELY: Right. Did you have a profession outside of raising you and your--your siblings and, uh, working in the synagogue? SWITOW: She was president and CEO of our house. ELY: OK. And, uh, in your family, growing up, um, what was your Jewish life like? Did you observe the holidays and Shabbat, and w--what--what kind of Jewish life did you have? SWITOW: Every Friday night was--our family was spent with, uh, Fred. And Fred had, um, two wives. Uh, Miriam was such a lovely, sweet lady, and she passed when I was six years old. And Fred me--remarried, I think, when I was about nine, or eight or nine year sold, to Rina (??). And so they--they hosted us every Friday night. Um, Dad&#039 ; s brother, my uncle Arnold Switow, would be there as well. So we would have a white tablecloth, uh, dinner, uh, at--at the grandparents&#039 ; . For a while, they lived at the Brown Suburban on Bardstown Road, and then they moved down to the 800 Building, and that was it. So you--we would from school, go home, change. Five-thirty, we&#039 ; d be downtown, uh, or--or, you know, get on Bardstown Road for the Kiddush, the lighting--women would go in the other room, light the candles. We&#039 ; d have the dinner, and, uh, we&#039 ; d be out of there. So that--that was every Friday night. And every Sunday, the family would meet at Mario&#039 ; s Pizza in St. Matthews, which is now either--I think it&#039 ; s Ratterman&#039 ; s Funeral Home is, uh, but that was the spot, every Sunday night, we&#039 ; d be there. And a lot of Saturdays, particularly as our--going through our bar and bat mitzvah training, which was required for us to--to be at at least three out of every four Shabbos services, we&#039 ; d be at synagogue on Saturdays. So it was pretty active, and then during the--Sunday afternoons, as we got older, we&#039 ; d be over at the Jewish community center, um, my sister and my brother and I, we all were in the--in the--the clubs over there, and we&#039 ; re actively involved in high school and playing sports over there on Sundays. ELY: Right. The clubs were very important in that era-- SWITOW: --huge-- ELY: --in the lives of Jewish teenagers. Can you talk a little bit more about what went on there, and what it meant to you? SWITOW: Yeah. Um, so, you know, starting when you were in seventh grade, as you were looking up to the ninth, tenth graders and the sort, it would basically--it was an opportunity to bring different--those of us from different schools into one location. So a lot of us went to Ballard, and then, um, the folks that had stayed in the, uh, communities off of Bardstown Road went to Atherton or Seneca, there were a few at Waggener. But it brought us all together there so that regardless of what high school, you ended up being, at one point, in one of five of the boys&#039 ; clubs. And it&#039 ; s unfortunate, I think at this point, maybe there&#039 ; s one that would survive, but it was very athletically driven and socially driven. So we would have great sporting events with flag football, basketball, softball, to name a few that would carry us throughout the--the school year that was in competition there every Sunday, and then we&#039 ; d have practices during the week that would bring us all together. But the--we had memories there that basically, we were at the JCC on Sundays from right after Sunday school at 12:30, and you got home at, like, six o&#039 ; clock at night. It was--that was part of life. ELY: Huh. And there were parties, too, and dances? SWITOW: Yeah. There--so there were social gatherings between the boys&#039 ; and the girls&#039 ; clubs there, uh, different socials that--that we would have. And, uh, f--I don&#039 ; t know, I&#039 ; m thinking, I just want to say formals, but those were more college fraternities, when you could say formals. But there was weekend or whatever they called it, um, but it was a lot of fun to look forward to. And some of those friends, we still have fun today poking fun at each other, that you were in that club, and we beat you at that time, and so on and so forth, back and forth. ELY: Do you feel like your circle of friends was mostly, um, Jewish kids that you knew from--uh, from the clubs? Or did you also have high school friends? Was it a mixed group? SWITOW: Mine was mixed. And I think it was driven--it was interesting, Carol, that there were--there was a division in the Jewish community. There were those of us that were out in the East End at Ballard High School that were the country club kids. So we went to Standard Country Club, and we were the ones that played golf and swam out there. And there was another group that was more in the highlands that went to the Jewish Community Center. And I wouldn&#039 ; t say there was a rift or something, but there was a clear distinction between the two. So again, I think because of some things I did competitively with golf and with playing basketball, I ended up having a balance of friends that were both Jewish and non-Jewish. ELY: Huh. Uh, you mentioned the Standard Club. Can you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be a kid and have access to that facility? SWITOW: So my smile comes on my face because that&#039 ; s really important to me. The--what folks forget is that on River Road and Zorn Avenue, which is now a field where they&#039 ; re running high school track, was a golf course. And that golf course was built in 1875, and it was the original Standard Country Club. And through the middle of that piece of property was this train trestle, and this train trestle--my uncle, uh, was a big guy, and not a good golfer, but occasionally he could clock a golf ball, but nobody could ever get it over the train trestle on their drive, and it was a blind shot where you land on the other side. Well, he, as a kid, got it over there, and ended up hitting somebody with his golf ball, and went running off of--(laughs)--it was--it was a--the first--he was the first to have hit the ball that far. And, uh, you know, it was really cool that it was the Switows that started it there, but more importantly, where it moved to in 1952 was instrumental, was Fred--was more Sam and Harry and Fred Switow that got it out there to where it is today. And it was nine holes, and, uh, the nine holes, uh, became eighteen holes in 1961. ELY: So the Standard Club essentially started as a golf club, but then expanded into other facilities? Is that right? SWITOW: To a point. It had a swimming pool in there initially, and maybe, uh, a tennis court or two built after that. At that time, Carol, you asked me if I had friends that were both Jewish and non-Jewish. We did, but there was a very--written rule, I mean, that, uh, clubs were discriminatory. And the reasons that Jewish Hospital was originated back in the nin--you know, early 1900s, uh, or earlier than that, I lose track of time, was because Jewish doctors weren&#039 ; t allowed to practice anywhere else. And on the country club side, if you wanted to belong to a country club, there were so many of them that--that we weren&#039 ; t allowed to--to a--to join, and maybe had a few problems with even visiting there. So that&#039 ; s where the country club was developed there, so that Jewish people could play golf. ELY: I&#039 ; m going to jump ahead in time, and then we&#039 ; ll go back again. There&#039 ; s an effort today to preserve the--the Standard Club for the community. Have you been involved with--with that, uh, trying to think through the twenty-first century Standard Club, and what it will be? SWITOW: Yeah. Did they tell you to ask me that question? ELY: No, they didn&#039 ; t. SWITOW: OK. ELY: I--if it&#039 ; s a question you&#039 ; re not comfortable answering at this point, that&#039 ; s fine. SWITOW: No, I&#039 ; m very comfortable answering, but I&#039 ; m also the guy that&#039 ; s, um-- ELY: I spoke with Louis Waterman who--who spoke with great fervor about it. SWITOW: So there--there were three of us that, uh, s--saw an opportunity to preserve the--the Standard Country Club. So the Standard Country Club was in debt, and there was a note held by the bank, and the bank was going to call the note, and the bank didn&#039 ; t want to do that politically. Didn&#039 ; t want to do it emotionally either, but they have a responsibility to do things. And so there was this group of three of us that orchestrated this, Carol, so that we, um, made an investment from the Heritage Foundation into Standard Country Club, not because we want to be in the golf business, but we did this because it was an opportunity for essentially to take that 148 acres and maintain a golf course there, and--and have a community center. And our vision was, and still is, to a point, if we can get the rest of the community to join on our bandwagon, is essentially make it a spot in--on the East Side of town that would be for community meetings. Could be for theater presentations, could be for boys&#039 ; and girls&#039 ; clubs, could be for camps. Because on that property, you have golf, you have tennis, you have swimming, you have fishing, OK? You can run. I mean, there&#039 ; s all kinds of property and activities that can be done there. And I saw it, as did a few others, that there&#039 ; s nothing else like it. If you think about it, there are community centers, there are health clubs, there are golf clubs, there are houses of worship. Where&#039 ; s one all in one? That&#039 ; s what this opportunity is, there. So it&#039 ; s exciting. So we bought it, um, at a discount as an investment for the foundation of which we have the right we could sell it. Uh, but we&#039 ; re there to make a difference with the--with the Heritage Foundation. And if the investment turns out that we make money because nobody else joined on our bandwagon, then we have a fiscal responsibility, financial responsibility to an organization to do that. But that&#039 ; s why we&#039 ; re there. ELY: OK. It&#039 ; s interesting to hear the different parts of town that have meaning for different people. And clearly, for the people who grew up in the East End, that&#039 ; s a--a key spot, along with, for a lot of people, the Jewish Community Center. So that&#039 ; s why I asked. So now we&#039 ; re going to talk about you again, and go back in time. So, uh, where did you go to college? If you did go to college, where did you go to college? Yes. SWITOW: I did, yes. Um, so I was a mediocre student. My, uh, mantra is C students rule the world, and that&#039 ; s what I was, a C student. Um, I--what else? I didn&#039 ; t let my classes interfere with my college education. So I-- ELY: Did you go to school locally? Or-- SWITOW: I would--actually, I--at that time, it was easier standards, and I also had aspirations of excelling in golf, so I wanted to go south. And I went to the University of South Carolina for one year. And that was an OK experience. I certainly could have stayed academically, but I decided that the cost and everything else, I ended up transferring back to University of Kentucky. And so in &#039 ; 77--uh, &#039 ; 76 and &#039 ; 77, I was at, uh, South Carolina, and then from &#039 ; 77 to &#039 ; 80, finished up my last three years in Lexington at UK. ELY: And, uh, at either place, were you part of, uh, Jewish groups? Hillel or anything else? SWITOW: Great question. Um, no. And it--uh, there was--there was just--w--those two schools, particularly Kentucky. Let me talk about that, while I was growing up. All the Jewish kids from the Louisville area that were going to go out of state, or to state universities, IU had a great Jewish presence, because you had the Chicago folks and the Detroit folks coming down, and there were probably three different--at least two or maybe three different Jewish fraternities and a couple different Jewish sororities. There was barely enough to hold a minyan at UK--at Kentucky. Now that&#039 ; s really changed with the help of Eli Capilouto, who&#039 ; s the president over there, who&#039 ; s Jewish, and also with Mark Kornbluh, who is head of, uh, the College of Arts and Sciences. And you probably may not know this, but now at UK, there is, uh, a three-hour accredited class in Yiddish-- ELY: --mm-- SWITOW: --at UK. But it wasn&#039 ; t like that when I was growing up. Th--there were very few Jewish kids that were there. So it--for the holidays, you know, thankfully, I was just but an hour away, that I could come home for, uh, those, but there was very little Jewish, uh, influence at all there back then. ELY: Have you stayed involved with UK, and, uh, you--you seem familiar with what&#039 ; s going on there now. Are you-- SWITOW: Yeah. So I&#039 ; m one of those rare breeds. I&#039 ; m on a board of the University of Louisville and the University of Kentucky. ELY: --ah-- SWITOW: It&#039 ; s not all about sports. ELY: So you wear purple a lot, I notice. SWITOW: Uh, it&#039 ; s not all about the sorts. You know, blue suit with red underwear maybe, or something. ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: Uh, but--or a red tie, but, um, at University of Kentucky, I am on the, uh, advisory council at the College of Arts and Science. And I&#039 ; ve been actively involved in other things. I&#039 ; ve been actually the one that&#039 ; s helped to coordinate getting, uh, the university introduced to the Heritage Foundation-- ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: --because we thought--and, you know, myself leading the way that, um, it was very important to introduce those that have never had really access to--to Jews, to let them know that we don&#039 ; t have horns, and that, uh, they need to know about our religion as much as anybody else&#039 ; s. And so we&#039 ; ve had, uh, with University, uh, submitting some great proposals, some grants that we have over there. And my hope is that we f--spread this out to Western Kentucky University and Murray State and Morehead and Eastern Kentucky University. It&#039 ; s not just UK, but UK, um, was the first one that came to us. So I&#039 ; ve been actively involved, and have gotten to know Eli Capilouto, the president there. ELY: --hmm-- SWITOW: Uh, and it&#039 ; s really, uh, just been a wonderful experience. ELY: Great. SWITOW: And I&#039 ; m also, like I said, on the--on the board of the University of Louisville. I don&#039 ; t want to slight them at all-- ELY: --(laughs)-- SWITOW: --and I love the advisory board I&#039 ; m on there that connects the business community with, uh, the students there. So I--I like supporting both of it. You know, the Louisville Board supports Louisville, and the Kentucky Board supports my alma mater. ELY: Great. Um, so have you traveled to Israel? Has this been part of your Jewish identity, your Jewish education? SWITOW: I&#039 ; ve never been. ELY: OK. Uh, you plan to go, I bet? SWITOW: Someday. ELY: Someday. Um, OK, so when and how did you meet your wife? You said you&#039 ; ve been married twenty-eight years? So-- SWITOW: Yeah. Uh, I didn&#039 ; t meet my wife very far from this studio. We were fixed up on a Friday night, and we met at a bar. But we--it was a fixup at a bar, and, um, it was, um, my f--it&#039 ; s my--it is my first marriage, and it will be my only. Uh, and it was Tammy&#039 ; s second. And so when we got married, I became a husband and a father in one fell swoop to a, uh, a six-year-old son who actually now works with me in my business, and has. And, uh, for the last, almost four years, and made me a grandfather of twin boys, six months ago. ELY: Congratulations. SWITOW: Thank you so much. ELY: Yeah. And, uh, your family mentioned that your wife wasn&#039 ; t Jewish. SWITOW: Right. ELY: So how did you negotiate that in your--you know, as personal as you wish to be, you know, in your relationship and in--and in--in, uh, raising your son? W--did you have a--a kind of Jewish family life? SWITOW: We did. Yes. So, um, we talked, and--and, uh, Tammy made a commitment that we would raise our children Jewish. And both Sam and Katie were, uh, bar and bat mitzvahed. Ryan was, uh, a convenient Jew. So when he was in grade school and high school and could take off for the holidays, he came to services with us, to get out of school. ELY: So you had two more children along the way? SWITOW: Yes. Yeah. ELY: Yes. OK. SWITOW: Yeah. So Ryan at this date in--in 2016 is thirty-three, and Sam&#039 ; s twenty-four, a recent college graduate, and Katie&#039 ; s an undergrad down in North Carolina at a small college down there, High Point. And she&#039 ; s twenty. So we agreed to raise them, uh, with a Jewish influence there. And with Mom and Dad being around, we still lit the candles on an occasional Friday night with them, celebrated, uh, you name it. Um, celebrated Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur with them, Hanukkah, Passover. The Seders would be at our house or Mom and Dad&#039 ; s house. And then I became what was coined, um, a C&amp ; E Christian, Christmas and Easter. ELY: --ah, OK-- SWITOW: That&#039 ; s a C&amp ; E. So, you know, we--I would accompany her, and--and, uh, enjoy going to her services and supporting her as well. ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: But we light candles, and the sort. ELY: And, um, OK. Um, switching topics, yeah? Uh, your family&#039 ; s been affiliated with Jewish Hospital for a long time too, I believe. SWITOW: --yeah-- ELY: Um, primarily in the--the business side. Is that correct, rather than medical? SWITOW: What do you--well, no body--I&#039 ; m sorry, nobody was on medical staff there. That&#039 ; s correct. ELY: Right, right. But--but fundraising and governance? SWITOW: Yeah. ELY: So who got involved? SWITOW: You know, Carol, that&#039 ; s a great question, as far as what, uh--my dad was never involved with Jewish Hospital, but I know that, um, Sam and Harry and Fred have some influence there. And then in 1996, I was asked to come on to the foundation board and served on that board, um, until 2002, and then the overlap was from 2000 to 2012, while it still was Jewish Hospital, I was on the full board. So I was the first Switow that I know of that was on the board there. Sam, Fred, and Harry might have been, I just never saw the records there. ELY: Uh, I think they--they did fundraising. I&#039 ; m not sure if it was a board membership. SWITOW: Yeah. ELY: But, um, the foundation, the Jewish Hospital Foundation, what was the mission of the foundation? But it still exists, is that correct? SWITOW: It does still exist. ELY: --OK-- SWITOW: Um, and it&#039 ; s confusing. ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: Um, but the--the mission is that, uh, they are there to, uh, raise money to extend grants for medical research. That&#039 ; s really the sole mission of that foundation, to, uh, you know, explore better ways to practice medicine, and keep us all safe and sound. ELY: And, uh, then when the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence was established, could you tell me a little bit about the history of how that happened and what the relationship was with Jewish Hospital? SWITOW: Yeah, that was a very interesting negotiation. So they got a bit contentious as Jewish Hospital and Catholic Health Initiatives, CHI, were coming together, of who was buying who, whether it was a merger of equals or whatever. And it got down to about the eleventh hour, and there was going to be a--um, an agreement made that was strictly going to be the Jewish Hospital side was going to have a minority ownership in the bigger entity. And a couple of us just sort of said, wait a second. Let&#039 ; s take a little smaller percentage, and let&#039 ; s--let&#039 ; s--how about some money, and that money is going to go into a foundation? So I think part of my dash when I die, on my headstone, will be I was one of the ones, um, that were--are responsible for having a pool of money that we got. So Carol, it&#039 ; s public record. We negotiated out that we got, um, $70 million to put into the Heritage Foundation, and then we had to decide what we were, and I&#039 ; ll get into that in a second. And then we had, uh, a few other dollars from Four Courts Nursing that were sold out that rolled into that as well. So essentially, we started with about 75, $80 million. And I&#039 ; m proud to say a mere four years later was giving away a fair amount of money every year. We&#039 ; re worth $100 million. And so as we formed ourselves, part of our responsibility back to the medical community was that a majority of the funds that we give out each year would go for medical causes. And then the balance would go for Jewish causes. So it&#039 ; s a great board to be on. We don&#039 ; t fundraise ; we don&#039 ; t ask anybody for any money. In fact, I don&#039 ; t--you know, nobody&#039 ; s ever given us any, uh, because we don&#039 ; t ask. So all&#039 ; s we do is we meet to make sure that the money is properly managed, and then we look at grants, and we give money away. What a great place to be. ELY: Uh, how were the first criteria established for what you would give money to? More than half to medical research, and then the rest within the Jewish community of Kentucky is the mandate? SWITOW: You know, there&#039 ; s some grey area in there, but we hope that, you know, most of it should stay within Kentucky. And there&#039 ; s--there&#039 ; s debate on whether it&#039 ; s Jefferson County, or it expands out. And you know, as I mentioned earlier, we&#039 ; ve ex--you know, given grants over at the University of Kentucky. So it&#039 ; s beyond just the boundaries of Jefferson County. And we can go into Southern Indiana, but there were negotiations back and forth, um, and it&#039 ; s not--I&#039 ; m not being coy, I just don&#039 ; t remember how all them came together, but there was definitely give and take of how we were going to do this. Uh, backing up on the-- ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: --negotiations between Jewish Hospital and CHI. It&#039 ; s like one of those jokes, you know, a rabbi and a priest walk into a bar. Well, the rabbis and the priests got into a room. Um, and I don&#039 ; t know if this has come up in any of your other interviews, but they listed out ethical religious directives, ERDs. And they said, OK, here&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s important to the Catholics, here&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s important to the Jewish community, and there were eighty of them. Out of eighty ERDs, seventy-eight of them were agreed upon between the Catholics and the Jews. There were two areas that there were, you know, differentiations, and it&#039 ; s pretty easy to guess. It&#039 ; s abortion and stem cell research. So some of the things that the foundation will do is separated out from Catholic Health Initiatives. If we&#039 ; re going to fund something that might have been Jewish Hospital-directed, it&#039 ; s not a conflict, um, for the Catholic side of it that we&#039 ; re stepping into something that they don&#039 ; t endorse. ELY: So you could fund stem cell research, for instance? I see. SWITOW: We could. Yes. So seventy-eight out of eighty is a pretty interesting stat. I&#039 ; ll always remember that. ELY: And, uh, how do you see the fund having an impact on the community in the future, and what are your broad goals for it? SWITOW: So my goal is maybe different than others, but I believe that in the first four years, we&#039 ; ve helped to sustain and keep alive certain programs that may have died on the vine. It might be getting seniors bussed from one place to another, it might be getting, um, you know, youngsters, five, seven, ten years old into different programs after school, or, you know, during the summer months, OK? That&#039 ; s great, and that is really important. That&#039 ; s what I would call our blocking and tackling. That&#039 ; s what we have to keep in place. But I&#039 ; ve got this vision that we&#039 ; ve got an opportunity with this amount of money, that we can do something on a very grand, spectacular fashion. I hope it&#039 ; s the Jewish Community Center-slash-Standard Country Club that come together as one. It may not, but that&#039 ; s my hope and my vision. If it&#039 ; s not that, it&#039 ; s something else. We have enough money to last for generations and make a real impact and a real difference for something that could have never happened without this sum of money. And maybe if somebody used this in thirty years, and they say, &quot ; Hundred million, that&#039 ; s not much.&quot ; But in today&#039 ; s dollars, that puts us at about one of the top five foundations in this area. It&#039 ; s significant. ELY: So, um, looking at the Jewish community in Louisville today, there&#039 ; s certainly challenges, and there are certainly issues. How do you see the community having changed or evolved over your lifetime? SWITOW: I think that started on the religious side first, that, um, it wasn&#039 ; t--I wouldn&#039 ; t say unacceptable, but it wasn&#039 ; t the norm that you would have Jews marrying outside of the religion. And now it&#039 ; s much more the norm. And so, you know, members of the clergy have--and it was embraced much earlier on in Reform, but it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s flowed upstream to the Conservative and maybe even the Orthodox that this is going to happen. And--and if they want to keep at least fifty percent of that family engaged, they better understand that they--that they--that those kind of couples should--shouldn&#039 ; t be shunned. ELY: --mm-- SWITOW: So I think that&#039 ; s the first thing on the religious side. And it&#039 ; s unfortunate that there is no, uh, Jewish Day School anymore. Um, you know, maybe they&#039 ; ll be resurrected. Um, so that&#039 ; s an unfortunate thing, is in regards to the religious side. In regards the, um, I guess, the community side and the social side, it&#039 ; s blurred lines now. It&#039 ; s not as d--as clear divisions as it was for my grandparents, my parents, and pretty much for me. Um, I mean, I&#039 ; ve gotten invitations to belong, to join certain clubs in town here that I think my grandfather might roll over in his grave if I accepted. But the point being, to answer your question, that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s changed, that I think we&#039 ; ve all come that--so Rodney King, why can&#039 ; t we just all get along? ELY: Um-hm. Uh, some people have identified the problem of young people leaving and not coming back to Louisville, so that there&#039 ; s a kind of absence of millennials, for lack of a better word. Do you see that as an issue, and do you have any ideas about that? SWITOW: It&#039 ; s certainly an issue when you have thirteen-plus-thousand families when I was young, and now there&#039 ; s less than eight thousand families. And you look at the amount of those families that have, as I put my fingers up, that are in that twenty to thirty-year-old--twenty to thirty-five-year-old grouping. It&#039 ; s a lot--hell of a lot less than it ever was. I see the tide turn a little bit, though. I think between the entrepreneurial mindset of Louisville and the fact that it&#039 ; s a virtual world, that you don&#039 ; t have to be in a Chicago or a Detroit or, you know, pick--pick a major metropolitan area in this region, that you can come back here. And I think that the--you know, we&#039 ; re attracting more than we once did. I see a slight turn in that-- ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: --to the positive. ELY: Do you think the foundation has any part in that, or is that not a philanthropic issue, it&#039 ; s more a business issue? SWITOW: I think it absolutely will have a part. Understand, we&#039 ; ve only been giving money away for four years. ELY: Right. SWITOW: But as we give this money away and establish more of these programs that will attract executives to accept positions, or even start businesses up here, accept positions with companies that offer jobs for them here, or for them to do startups here, and they look at what&#039 ; s involved in the Jewish community, you know, again, back to my hope dream and vision. Imagine they come and they say, gee, there&#039 ; s a place that&#039 ; s got a golf course, uh, a community center, a swimming pool, a camp. They have theater there and everything. Nobody else ever has anything like that. This is really unique here. And they actually even have--perhaps, you know, they can hold services here, you know, as--as makeshift sanctuaries. We don&#039 ; t see that anywhere else, that&#039 ; s pretty unique. So I think the impact of the--of the Heritage Foundation through the years, um, uh, is going to have a real positive effect. ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: Now understand, I&#039 ; m a positive person. My glass is always half full, so maybe I&#039 ; m a dreamer. But I do see it on--on the upturn. ELY: Um, have you had experiences with antisemitism in Louisville in your personal or professional life? Or do you feel that that was a previous generation that dealt with that, and it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s done? SWITOW: Sure. I d--can&#039 ; t imagine for any of us that have crossed out of, um, the bubble and--and--and interacted with other parts of the community that you can&#039 ; t--you couldn&#039 ; t--everybody&#039 ; s encountered that. It&#039 ; s how you&#039 ; ve dealt with it. Do I encounter it today? Not overtly. ELY: And today you&#039 ; re in--uh, your profession is-- SWITOW: So I&#039 ; m in--in financial management. ELY: --um-hm-- SWITOW: I manage people&#039 ; s money, and so-- ELY: A few Jews are in that business. SWITOW: What&#039 ; s that again? ELY: A few--a few Jews are in that business, yes. SWITOW: Yes, a few of us are in that business. And, um, Carol, I have just as many clients that are not of the faith, um, that are my clients as those that are. ELY: Um, good to hear. Um, have--have you seen other, uh, changes in the community in the way Jews interact in the world? Um, have you, uh, felt in your personal life that--that, um, being here in the twenty-first century is--is new? And-- SWITOW: Let&#039 ; s--let&#039 ; s talk about it from-- ELY: --OK-- SWITOW: --from a short, from a community service angle. So when my grandparents, or even parents got involved, where did they get involved with? Their synagogues, the federation, Jewish Hospital, the Jewish Country Club. Today, I think you&#039 ; ll see--you&#039 ; ll find members--uh, Jewish members that are involved in Baptist Hospital, Norton&#039 ; s Hospital, Univer--on the university-level boards, both in Kentucky, UK, and at University of Louisville. And by the way, the chairman of the board of University of Kentucky, Jewish. ELY: --hmm-- SWITOW: OK? You know, uh, so I think that you see that members of the Jewish Community are in--in a lot areas that they once weren&#039 ; t giving access to, or even considered giving their time to. So on--from a community service level, big difference today in this generation than it was two generations ago. ELY: Mm. Well, I have run through my list of questions. You asked me about that at the beginning. But is there anything that, um, you would like to talk about that I haven&#039 ; t asked you about? Anything that you think it&#039 ; s important to be, sort of, a story on the record, or a thought on the record, or an opinion on the record? SWITOW: Hmm. May have to cut the tape, and I may have to think about this for a minute. Um, so Carol, I--I think the most important thing, um, or what--what rules my life is that--a--and we&#039 ; d had this at a, uh, a dinner party just recently. And I was sitting across the table from someone who was Catholic. And I s--we were just going back and forth after--over a glass of wine at dinner. I said, you know, how often do you go to church, you know? How often do you go to confessional? And I asked--and he goes, &quot ; Why are you asking all these questions?&quot ; I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m just curious, because I don&#039 ; t go to organized services very often. I&#039 ; m very close with my rabbi. I mean, I consider him a very good friend of mine, and when I can reach out, and which I did recently about a very personal problem, family issue, that I--I could trust him.&quot ; And he s--and the guy challenged me across the table, he goes, &quot ; Do you consider yourself more religious or more spiritual?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m clearly more spiritual. I&#039 ; m very proud of being Jewish. Um, uh, if you go through life and you don&#039 ; t try and treat people as good as yourself but have a mindset &#039 ; I&#039 ; m going to treat everybody better than I would want to be treated myself,&#039 ; it&#039 ; ll pay you back in spades. Um, and it&#039 ; s just the way life works in that way.&quot ; So I think our community is laden very heavily with those that are spiritual. I&#039 ; m being completely respectful for those who are religious and are devout and go to minyan and go to Shabbat services, and everything else like that. I respect them immensely if they&#039 ; re doing it for reasons for themselves. But spiritually, um, I think it&#039 ; s very prevalent in our community, both on all sides, but particularly on the Jewish community, that you can look at attendance at services, is nowhere near indicative of how strong the spirituality is of the Jewish community here. That, to me, is the most--single most important thing that I could tell you. ELY: OK. Well, thank you for being willing to be interviewed, and sharing your thoughts. SWITOW: I&#039 ; m honored. Um, as I told you when you called, there&#039 ; s none of us left. I mean, I have a brother who&#039 ; s nine years younger but he lives in Singapore. Yeah, Sam Switow, my son, um, twenty-four, he&#039 ; s not quite qualified to do this yet. And so if you look in the phone book, it&#039 ; s me. So I think you got me by default, but I appreciate, uh, the honor of--of being able to represent the family. ELY: Well, a--a long legacy with your family. So-- SWITOW: Thank you, Carol. ELY: OK. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh403_jk038_switow_ohm.xml 2016oh403_jk038_switow_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh403_jk038_switow_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mark Switow, September 20, 2016 Description An account of the resource Mark Switow, born in 1958 in Louisville, Kentucky, grew up in a family of Jewish entrepreneurs and Jewish community leaders. Switow’s grandfather and great-uncles started M. Switow & Sons, an entertainment business throughout Southern Indiana and Kentucky. Switow’s father Irvin was also involved in the family’s concession supply business, Standard Vendors. Switow grew up in Louisville’s Adath Jeshurun Synagogue. He describes youth activities at the Louisville Jewish Community Center and the mixed Jewish and non-Jewish social circles he grew up in. He also discusses the development of the Standard Country Club for the Jewish community in response to the antisemitism of other private clubs and his recent desire to preserve the club as another center for the Jewish community. Switow served on the foundation board of the Jewish Hospital from 1996 to 2002 and on the full board from 2000 to 2012. From the merger and sale of Jewish Hospital, Switow and other Jewish Hospital board members created the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh403_jk038 Subject The topic of the resource Genealogy Jewish businesspeople Small business--Kentucky Small business--Ownership Religion Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Louisville (Ky.) Childhood Discrimination. Families. Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Judaism Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/cf03a4a4ee9310faad24fb7d3b717655.jpg 9910a33fcf1c4c822e09ccaee4e8900a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Carol Ely Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Suzanne Post Interview Keyword Holocaust Emigration and immigration. Genealogy Immigrants Vietnam War, 1961-1975 African Americans--Social conditions. Race discrimination Racism OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh402_jk037 Interview with Suzanne Post, September 16, 2016 2016oh402_jk037 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Childhood Louisville (Ky.) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Discrimination. World War, 1939-1945--Concentration camps Race relations--United States Families. Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Jews--Identity. Religion Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Civil rights movements--United States African Americans--Relations with Jews. Social movements--United States Holocaust Emigration and immigration. Genealogy Immigrants Vietnam War, 1961-1975 African Americans--Social conditions. Race discrimination Racism Suzanne Post Carol Ely 1:|30(4)|43(10)|67(11)|103(11)|145(3)|166(8)|185(3)|195(8)|224(10)|244(5)|276(11)|293(3)|323(9)|344(8)|367(7)|386(10)|394(14)|402(13)|414(14)|423(1)|446(12)|462(3)|485(16)|504(5)|520(1)|548(15)|583(11)|603(8)|622(4)|644(12)|684(1)|701(6)|716(6)|733(10)|743(6)|769(4)|802(6)|829(11)|853(11)|890(12)|907(7)|942(16)|958(5)|979(3)|1023(13)|1059(12)|1095(18)|1116(16)|1143(14)|1168(8)|1197(16)|1226(3)|1251(9)|1274(1) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253332405&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family background Uh, it's September 16th, 2016. I'm Carol Ely, and I'm here with Suzy Post for an interview for the Kentucky Jewish Oral History Project, sponsored by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Suzy Post was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1933 in the depths of the Great Depression. Post begins by discussing her family's history, starting with both sets of grandparents who immigrated to the United States from Germany sometime in the nineteen-teens. Her mother's parents ended up in Terre Haute, Indiana and her father's parents settled in Louisville, Kentucky. Post explains that the reason she does not know much about her grandparents' background is because her parents never talked about their roots. She believes that her parents felt that because their parents left their old life behind and were starting a new life in the United States, they didn't feel the need to talk about their roots. She also notes that her mother and father never spoke German in their house. All of her grandparents came from Germany as Reform Jews. Post's mother, Elizabeth Wolff, and father, Morris Kling, were both born in the United States. Elizabeth Wolff ; German Jews ; Grandparents ; Great Depression ; History ; Morris Kling ; Terre Haute (Ind.) Depressions--1929--Kentucky ; Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 230 Family's religious life and political views But their parents didn't, uh, bring over particular religious traditions or ethical-- Post's grandparents brought the traditions of Reform Judaism to the United States when they immigrated from Germany. Post's parents, Elizabeth and Morris, were both progressive in their political views but neither belonged to the Socialist party. Whenever she objected to something that was happening in the world, she recalls her father saying, &quot ; After the revolution.&quot ; Jewish tradition ; Reform Judaism ; Socialism Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Jews--Identity. ; Politics and government 17 293 Early family life So did you have brothers and sisters? Post had a set of twin younger siblings, a brother and a sister. All of the children in her household were born in the depth of the Great Depression so she describes it being, &quot ; really hard times for mom and dad.&quot ; She recalls people coming to her home for food and her mother fixing them a plate and handing it to them outside. She and her sister always wore hand-me-downs, including designer clothes from a wealthy cousin. Her family lived in Strathmoor Village off of Taylorsville Road in Louisville, Kentucky. It was a new neighborhood and Post recalls playing as a kid in the empty lots around her house. She and her siblings went to a county school until the eighth grade and then moved over to Highland Junior High which was a city school. Family life ; Grammar schools ; Great Depression ; Highland Junior High School ; Strathmoor Village ; Twins Childhood ; Depressions--1929--Kentucky ; Education ; Families. 38.2231, -85.6777 17 Strathmoor Village (Ky.) 421 Early Jewish life and traditions So did you--um, what was the Jewish life like in your family? What was the role of tradition? Did you attend temple? Growing up, Post's family had Shabbat dinner every Friday and Saturday night, lit candles, and said the blessings over the children. She and her siblings attended Sunday school at a synagogue on Second Street in downtown Louisville. She recalls that the Jewish community was a big part of her Jewish identity. She discusses how she only dated Jewish boys and how she believed intermarriage was a &quot ; horror.&quot ; She states that the first non-Jewish boy she dated was in college at Indiana University. She remembers herself as a &quot ; good girl&quot ; who never rebelled against any Jewish traditions. Post was a member of two or three clubs at the YMHA with other young girls in the Jewish community. Indiana University ; Intermarriage ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Jewish life ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Sunday school ; Temple Shalom (Louisville, synagogue) ; Young Men's Hebrew Association (YMHA) ; Youth clubs Childhood ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.templeshalomky.org Link to Temple Shalom's web page in Louisville (Ky.) 628 Disparities in the Jewish community / thoughts on socialism So, uh, were you aware of disparities in the community between the people who were leaders and who tended to be wealthier? Post begins by describing the noticeable difference between the &quot ; haves and the have-nots&quot ; in the community. She describes children at her school who wore hand-me-downs and some who didn't. She recalls that the differences in social class in her community were largely economic and very noticeable. She then describes her father, Morris Kling's, role in the Jewish community, calling him a &quot ; macher&quot ; who served as president of their congregation. Her father then became president of the Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass. She states that her uncle, Arthur Kling, was the real leader in the community. Arthur was a socialist and ran for mayor of Louisville on the socialist ticket in 1939 with Norman Thomas. Post remembers singing socialist songs on Passover at his house at the end of Seder. She has used these songs until now. She mentions being warned not to say publicly that she was a Socialist. She recalls that Socialism in her family was more of a &quot ; Jewish thing&quot ; rather than something separate. Her father would say, &quot ; after the revolution.&quot ; Arthur Kling ; Congregations ; Fathers ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Federation of the Bluegrass ; Jewish tradition ; Morris Kling ; Norman Thomas ; Passover (also Pesach) ; Seder ; Social classes Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Politics and government ; Religion ; Socialism 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 859 Mother's role in the community / first memories of the Holocaust And, uh, did your mother take a public role in the community? Post describes her mother's involvement with Hadassah in Louisville. Her mother became the president of Hadassah and &quot ; lived, worked, and died Hadassah.&quot ; She recalls her mother being devoted to helping Jews in Israel. Post recalls feeling that &quot ; it seemed perfectly natural&quot ; to be in favor of her homeland Israel. Post then transitions into a discussion about one of her first experiences with the Holocaust. She describes being at a &quot ; movie house&quot ; with her younger siblings and seeing a newsreel of the concentration camps. She describes it as a horrible feeling and the first time it registered with her what was going on and that it was human beings who had caused this to happen. She states that the start of her social justice work was because of the horrible pictures she saw at the movie house that night of what was done to Jews, gypsies, handicapped people and others. Recently she had to leave the Holocaust Museum because of the power of the images there. She says it was a mistake not to have discussed these things at home but they couldn't. It was a private horror of her own. She says that even today people don't do enough to avoid doing this sort of thing. She cites &quot ; The Garden of the Finzi-Continis&quot ; as an excellent film to show what happens when a protective wall hides what is really going on. She has asked every Federation director to show that film as part of UJA, with no success. Adolf Hitler ; Benito Mussolini ; Community ; Council of Jewish Women (Louisville, Ky.) ; Elizabeth Wolff ; Hadassah ; Holocaust ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Mothers ; Movies ; The Garden of the Finzi-Continis (Motion picture) ; United Jewish Appeal (UJA) ; World War II ; Zionism Discrimination. ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; World War, 1939-1945 ; World War, 1939-1945--Concentration camps 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.hadassah.org/regions/central-states/louisville/louisville.html Link to Louisville's Hadassah webpage 1245 Family's experiences in the Holocaust Do, do you know anything about your family's experiences in the Holocaust? Your relatives left-- Post recalls that none of her family had direct experiences with the Holocaust except her aunt who was married to a Nazi in Germany. This aunt escaped Germany in 1939 or '40. She describes a tapestry that her aunt took from Germany that was supposed to go on a bench. Post now has the tapestry hanging in her house. Aunts ; Family life ; Germany ; History ; Holocaust ; Nazism ; World War II Discrimination. ; Families. ; Religion ; World War, 1939-1945 ; World War, 1939-1945--Concentration camps 17 1347 Beginning of her social justice work / how she met her husband So thirteen, learning about the Holocaust, being exposed to these horrors, did it make you feel vulnerable here in America? Because Post came of age during the rise of the civil rights movement in the late forties and early fifties, she joined the NAACP when she began college at Indiana University. She later joined the NAACP in Louisville and met a man named Lyman T. Johnson who was the grandson of slaves. She recalls an interesting experience she had with Johnson where he sat down and told her children and in-laws about what it was like being the grandson of a slave. Post's in-laws also shared stories with Johnson about what it was like being the children of Russian Jews and to hide under the floorboards from the Cossacks. Post then transitions into how she met her husband. Her husband, Edward Post, was a part of the Jewish community in Louisville and was described as &quot ; very smart.&quot ; Post recalls that they were both co-chairs of the United Jewish Appeal in high school and college which is where they met. They were married very young because of pressure in the 1950s not to get pregnant outside of marriage. She took social justice politics more seriously than he did. His role was to work as a lawyer to feed the family. She did the &quot ; let's change the world&quot ; stuff. They had five children. Civil rights ; Edward Post ; Holocaust ; Indiana University ; Jewish marriage ; Lyman T. Johnson ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) ; Passover (also Pesach) ; United Jewish Appeal (UJA) African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Civil rights movements--United States ; Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Immigrants ; Race discrimination ; Race relations--United States ; Racism 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.naacplou.org Link to the Louisville branch NAACP's webpage. 1752 Raising children in the Jewish tradition So, uh, t, tell me about your, your children and their, their child--we'll stay in the childhood phase now. You can tell me how they ended up later. Post and her husband had five children together, four sons and an unplanned and joyously welcomed fifth child, a daughter. Post was focused on survival, more than on gender education of her children. Her four sons had bar mitzvahs at Temple Shalom in Louisville, her daughter did not. Post recalls having a debate with herself whether or not she wanted to raise her children in the Jewish tradition but she thought &quot ; life is bigger than that.&quot ; She concluded that she would expose them to Judaism so it would be easier to reject it later if they wanted to. Post then transitions to what has changed for her in her faith, saying that she values things that &quot ; help us determine what kinds of choices we make in life&quot ; and credits being a Jew during the time of the Holocaust with going into civil rights work. Religion helps people think about good and evil. However, Post does not attribute any Jewish or generally religious values as a motivation for the work she did. She mainly attributes being a minority as a Jew and the history of the Holocaust as her motivation and what made her sensitive to the civil rights movement. Bar mitzvahs ; Child-rearing ; Childhood ; Holocaust ; Jewish education ; Jewish tradition ; Judaism ; Temple Shalom (Louisville, synagogue) African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Civil rights movements--United States ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Race discrimination ; Race relations--United States ; Religion 17 2102 Relationship between Jewish and African American communities in Louisville, Kentucky and work with the NAACP Um-hm. What--so what was the relationship between the Jewish community and the African American community like in Louisville-- Post recalls that there was not a relationship between the Black and Jewish communities in Louisville at the time she was doing civil rights work in the late forties. She notes that Jewish households had Black maids as the extent of the relationship. Jewish storekeepers were more likely to serve African American customers, and names Mary Helen Byck, who owned Byck's department stores, as one she remembers. Post transitions into a discussion about her involvement in the NAACP and notes that it was unusual for her as a Jewish person to be involved in the organization. She didn't note support or opposition as significant to her own civil rights activism. Post states that she didn't notice any opposition to her work in the community and when she graduated from Atherton High School she predicted she was going to be collecting money for Louisville for the Urban League in the Fiji Islands. Atherton High School ; Byck's Department Stores ; Democratic State Central Committee ; Department stores ; Jewish communities ; Jewish stores ; Mary Helen Byck ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) ; Relations with African Americans African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Civil rights movements--United States ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Race discrimination ; Race relations--United States ; Racism 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2258 Involvement in the open housing law and school desegregation in Louisville, Kentucky So who could you partner with to work on these issues of injustice? Is that when the ACLU came into the picture? Post begins by discussing the NAACP in Louisville and Lyman T. Johnson as its leader. She then turns to the open housing law that divided the city of Louisville in the 1960s. She recalls that there was great opposition to the law but a few Jewish leaders spoke out. Post states that this was an important part of the Jewish and African American communities' relations. She then discusses school desegregation in Louisville in the 1980s, where she was the only white plaintiff with children in the public school at the time which gave her legitimacy on the issue but also cost her a lot of acquaintances. She talks about feeling exposed as a Jew when she has worked in the Black community, and therefore identifying as an American Jewish woman to try to counter expressions of anti-Semitism. American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) ; Lyman T. Johnson ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) ; Public schools African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Segregation ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Civil rights movements--United States ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Race discrimination ; Race relations--United States ; Racism ; Segregation in education 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2407 Jewish identity and experiences with anti-Semitism Did you, um, feel exposed in a way because you were Jewish? Was that ever used against you by the people who were opposed? Post begins by describing that she did feel exposed as a Jew when she worked with African Americans in large numbers. She recalls that she made clear as soon as possible that she was Jewish as a way of saying &quot ; don't rub my nose in your anti-Semitism ; I don't wanna hear about it.&quot ; She then claims that she didn't encounter any anti-Semitism, although she expected it. She says that she's always had great relations with African Americans outside of the Jewish community and that being Jewish was never an issue. Antisemitism ; Jewish identity ; Relations with African Americans African Americans--Relations with Jews. ; African Americans--Social conditions. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Race relations--United States ; Racism 17 2539 Involvement in the anti-war and feminist movements You, uh, became involved in a lot of movements, not just, uh--&quot ; just&quot ; --open housing, school desegregation. You got involved, uh, in opposition to the Vietnam War as well. That must have been, uh, a struggle. Post begins by describing her involvement in the anti-war movement during the Vietnam War by saying it was &quot ; painful.&quot ; She recalls a time when she had to step away from her son Ben's bar mitzvah to participate in a demonstration after the Cambodian bombings, which she states was the largest demonstration in Louisville's history. She became involved in many social justice movements because everything affects everything else. Her family and the Jewish community were not always supportive of her activism. She then discusses her rabbi, Rabbi Pearly, who was fired for being too involved in the anti-war movement and didn't spend enough time with his congregants. Rabbi Pearly later took a job as the director of the Human Rights Commission and hired Post to work on women's rights. She then became involved in the women's movement as an extension of the ways people were treated inequitably. The Jewish community was particularly upset when she started a support group called the Kentucky Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty which received a lot of opposition. Anti-war ; Bar mitzvah ; Ben Post ; Cambodian bombings ; Civil rights ; Feminism ; Human Rights Commission ; Jewish communities ; Kentucky Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty ; Protests ; Rabbi Pearly ; Vietnam War ; Women's Movement Civil rights movements--United States ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Social movements--United States ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://kcadp.org Link to the Kentucky Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty which is still an active group today. 2757 Reflections on Jewish identity and current civil rights involvement So did you feel you were kind of fighting it within your religious identity, or was it more a political thing in the, in the context of America? Post claims that she fought the issues she did because of her political interest rather than limited to her religious identity. Her involvement was outside of the Jewish community and synagogue and she didn't think about that during her work. She was on the Human Rights Commission, as was Rabbi Pearly. She is not involved with any major movements recently but she feels that there are people she has mentored that have done great things, although she doesn't mention them. In response to whether she's been involved with the gay rights movement, she responds that all of these things are interconnected like a great loaf of challah. She recalls that she never felt that being Jewish allowed her to speak differently about things and that she didn't consider it a liability to not be able to speak up about things. Gay rights ; Human Rights Commission ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity ; Jewish organizations ; Rabbi Pearly Civil rights movements--United States ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion ; Social movements--United States 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2938 Children and grandchildren's current lives So just to turn back to the personal for a minute, um, where are your children and grandchildren and--now, and what kind of lives have they-- Post discusses her children's current lives. Her oldest son is a professor at Penn State. Her son, Steven, is a math professor in Madison, Wisconsin. Her son, Ben, is working in Louisville. Her son, Daniel, is an attorney in California and her only daughter, Rachel, is involved with the homeless coalition in Portland, Oregon. Post says that she doesn't know if they have continued to identify with Judaism. They are too far away to gather for Passover, only when she got lung cancer. Ben ; California ; Daniel ; Family life ; Judaism ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Madison (Wis.) ; Penn State University ; Portland (Or.) ; Rachel ; Steven Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion 17 3044 Changes within the Jewish community during her lifetime / closing remarks So, um, just some kind of global questions here. How, how have you seen things change in the Jewish community in your lifetime as far as what people are involved with, what they care about? Post claims the Jewish community today in Louisville is much more affluent now than it was when she grew up in it. She discusses how some people in the community today can go to Israel every other year, although she has not gone herself. Post believes that one of the biggest issues facing the Jewish community today is maintaining its integrity, especially when finances won't restrict Jews from moving outside of the community. She herself regrets having never traveled to Israel. She closes the interview by letting the audience know that living and working as a Jew in a larger community was very enriching. She states that she not only has had her Jewish heritage to draw from but also a larger, non-Jewish world to draw from. Change ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Jewish identity Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) interview Suzy Post was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1933 during the Great Depression. Both sets of her grandparents immigrated to the United States from Germany in the early 1900s, bringing with them Reformed Jewish traditions. She recalls the Jewish community as a crucial part of her Jewish identity and remembers thinking interfaith marriage was a “horror.” She recounts the lasting impact of her first exposure to the Holocaust, viewing footage of concentration camps at the movies. These images sparked her passion for justice movements and working to help minorities. She became involved with the civil rights movement through participation in the Louisville NAACP. During the 1960s civil rights movement, Post worked to establish the controversial open housing law in Louisville to allow people, regardless of race, to live anywhere they wanted. She was also involved in the 1960s anti-war movements against the Vietnam War, and in the feminist movement. In 1987, Post started a support group called the Kentucky Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty which advocates to end the death penalty in Kentucky. Post concludes the interview by discussing her family’s and Jewish communal life today. ELY: Uh, it&#039 ; s September 16th, 2016. I&#039 ; m Carol Ely, and I&#039 ; m here with Suzy Post for an interview for the Kentucky Jewish Oral History Project, sponsored by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. So thank you, Suzy, for welcoming us into your home to do this interview. POST: My pleasure. ELY: So I&#039 ; ll start roughly chronologically. We may go in many-- POST: --okay-- ELY: --directions, but, but we&#039 ; ll start with just the very basics. When and where were you born? POST: I was born here in Louisville, Kentucky in 1933, the depth of the Depression. ELY: Hmm. POST: And they didn&#039 ; t let me forget about that while I was growing up. ELY: No? POST: No. ELY: No? Well, let&#039 ; s--before we get to the depths of the Depression, let&#039 ; s go back a little bit, uh, through your family&#039 ; s history, and if you could just talk a little bit about the experiences of your grandparents, who they were, and their life in Europe, and how your family ended up in America. POST: Well, both sets of grandparents, my mother&#039 ; s parents and my father&#039 ; s parents, were German Jews who immigrated to the United States sometime, probably, I&#039 ; d say, the nineteen teens. Uh, they&#039 ; d been long settled by the time I came around, and one set ended up in Terre Haute, Indiana, and my father&#039 ; s father and mother ended up here in Louisville. So I became more familiar with my father&#039 ; s parents than with my mother&#039 ; s. Uh, although we drove up to Terre Haute fairly frequently, back in the days when cars weren&#039 ; t very good and the tires were always exploding, and my father always had to stop at least once to change a tire. And it took eight hours. Terre Haute&#039 ; s a hundred and sixty miles. It took eight hours. It tells you how bad the roads were, and the cars. ELY: Hmm. POST: So I didn&#039 ; t have a unified, uh, set of grandparents, but I certainly was familiar with them. ELY: Well, do you know when they lived in Germany and what kind of work they did and what their circumstances-- POST: --I-- ELY: --were? POST: --don&#039 ; t know that. I think they came over here as young men, the two--the two grandfathers. And one of them went into a small business that he started, and the other one worked for family in Terre Haute. And the interesting thing about that is my parents, neither my mother nor my father, ever talked about their roots. ELY: Oh. POST: In fact, they sort of brushed me off. It was as if it was--it wasn&#039 ; t forbidden, but it certainly wasn&#039 ; t--it wasn&#039 ; t encouraged, which-- ELY: --do you have a sense of why that was so? POST: I think it was part of that whole go to a new country and start a new life thing, and you just left the old one behind, and you didn&#039 ; t really talk about it much, &#039 ; cause you were here, starting a new life. They didn&#039 ; t discuss those things with us at all. And interestingly, I never heard my mother speak a word of German. ELY: Hmm. POST: Unless she was trying to say something about her children that she didn&#039 ; t want us to know, and used German phrases with my father. And I never heard him speak any German. So it was almost as if you had to lose that old country life and what it included as soon as you started a life in a new country. Which is a shame, really. ELY: Yes. Do you know what their Jewish life was like in Germany? POST: No. ELY: If they were-- POST: --no-- ELY: --identified or affiliated? POST: They were all born over here. ELY: Um-hm. POST: Mom was born in the US. Dad was born in the US, so. ELY: But their parents didn&#039 ; t, uh, bring over particular religious traditions or ethical-- POST: --just-- ELY: --traditions? POST: Just, uh, Reform Judaism, basically. They were both Reform Jews. ELY: So why don&#039 ; t we just--for the record, your parents&#039 ; names were? POST: Were, uh, Morris and Elizabeth Kling, and my mother, Elizabeth, was Elizabeth Wolff, W-O-L-F-F, at the time she married dad. ELY: And did they have any particular political beliefs that you&#039 ; re aware of-- POST: --progressive-- ELY: --that they discussed? Progressive? POST: Just progressive. ELY: In what sense? What did they talk about? What did they support? POST: Well, my father always used to say when I objected to something that was happening, &quot ; After the revolution.&quot ; So he was, uh--he would egg me on. But they were really, uh, just good, progressive Jews. ELY: Not necessarily members of the Socialist Party-- POST: --no-- ELY: --or-- POST: --no. No, that was-- ELY: --no-- POST: --my job. ELY: Okay. POST: That&#039 ; s what I got to do. ELY: So did you have brothers and sisters? POST: I had a younger brother and sister, who were twins, who were born a couple years after me. ELY: That must have been interesting, having-- POST: --it was-- ELY: --twins in the family. They must have ganged up against you. POST: Well, it was a tough time. We were all born in the depth of the Depression, and it was really hard times for mom and dad. And I can remember many, many times when men would come to the back door, and my mother would fix a plate of food and hang it--hand it outdoors. And I don&#039 ; t think either my sister or I wore anything that wasn&#039 ; t a hand-me-down from another relative. In fact, I got to wear the dresses of a thirty-five-year-old cousin in Cincinnati. She was--the--she was wealthy, so I had costume--designer clothes when I was twelve. Totally-- ELY: --that must-- POST: --inappropriate--(Carol laughs)--but they were--you know, we wore them. ELY: And what neighborhood did you live in? Where were you then? POST: Uh, we lived over in Strathmoor Village, not very far from Bowman Field, off of, uh, Taylorsville Road. ELY: That must have been just built then? POST: Oh, yeah. It was so much fun. It was fun because there were still some empty lots, and there were still houses going up, and I was such a rough-and-tumble girl. I loved playing in those p--in those houses that were going up, and these mountains of dirt that the excavators had piled up outside. Played King of the Mountain with them, the neighborhood boys. It was really--it was just--it was a lot of fun. ELY: Um-hm. And did you go to school in the neighborhood? POST: No, it was a county school out by the Melbourne Heights. A lot of farm kids went there. Uh, it was a county school, not a city school. And went there until the eighth grade, and there--they cut it off at the eighth grade, and then I had to move over to Highland Junior High, the city schools. ELY: So did you--um, what was the Jewish life like in your family? What was the role of tradition? Did you attend temple? POST: Uh, we--I guess--it was pretty simple. We had Shabbat dinner every Saturday night, or--a very minimal one. My mother always lit candles and said the blessings over her children. And I think, but I&#039 ; m not sure, that there was a little better meal Friday night. Money was terribly scarce, so I&#039 ; m not sure about that. And, uh, we went to Sunday school when all the synagogues were downtown, on Second Street, and, uh, that synagogue moved up to become Temple Shalom when I was--it was before I was married, because I was married in the new one, but all that happened in my teenage years, that the congregation shifted east. ELY: An--and what was your feeling about being part of this Jewish community? Was it something that really was part of your identity, or? POST: Oh, very much so. Very much so. I never dated any boys but Jewish boys. Of course, anything else was verboten. You just didn&#039 ; t do that. Intermarriage was a horror. And the first non-Jewish boy I ever dated was at Indiana University, when I was a student there. And it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s kind of--it was kind of silly, but it was very protective. You know, it was the Jewish community protecting itself. ELY: Um-hm. POST: And what&#039 ; s happened since demonstrates why that was thought to be important at the time. ELY: So did you at all rebel against any-- POST: --no-- ELY: --of those traditions? POST: --no, I was a good girl. ELY: Good girl. (laughs) Okay. POST: I was good girl. ELY: Um-hm. And did you see yourself continuing this Jewish life that you were living as you-- POST: --I did, I-- ELY: --grew up? POST: Uh, let&#039 ; s put it this way. I, I never assumed I wouldn&#039 ; t, but I never sat down and saw any reason why it wasn&#039 ; t adequate for me. I wasn&#039 ; t that challenging. And it was just--it was so easy. I just went the way of the easiness. ELY: Um-hm. Were there youth groups back then? Were there any clubs you were part of? POST: Yeah, they were, but they were--they were all connected to the YMHA, and I belonged to two or three of them. Uh, none of us dated non-Jewish boys. Uh, there was a terrible fear back in those days that if girls dated non-Jews, we&#039 ; d have intermarriage, and that would affect the population, and it turned out to be totally true. So we were the good girls. ELY: (laughs) Um, I wonder if, back then, you noticed any kind of split in the community between the more recent Russian immigrants and the older German immigrants who tended to be Reform. Did you feel like there was-- POST: --no-- ELY: --a social-- POST: --I didn&#039 ; t-- ELY: --difference? POST: I didn&#039 ; t have enough contact with the latter group. Uh, with the Russian Jews. ELY: Hmm. POST: That came, really, later. ELY: Um-hm. POST: So no, I didn&#039 ; t. ELY: So, uh, were you aware of disparities in the community between the people who were leaders and who tended to be wealthier? POST: Well, the disparities I noticed were between the haves and the have-nots, and that was pretty obvious to even a student my age who wasn&#039 ; t that discerning. I mean, there were people who had a lot, and people like us who were fine, but there was never a lot. ELY: Um-hm. POST: And there were people who wore hand-me-downs, us, and the girls who didn&#039 ; t ever do that, as far as I know. And there were people who had two cars, and us. So it was pretty obvious. I mean, the, the differences in, uh, class was largely economic and pretty observable. ELY: Did, uh, your father have any role in the Jewish community? Did he-- POST: --he, he was a member, and he was fairly active, but with age, it got to be more and more so, and he got to be a, a real macher in the Jewish community. But while I was growing up, that wasn&#039 ; t so, because I think most of his vital juices were involved in keeping that business-- ELY: --hmm-- POST: --together, and he didn&#039 ; t have the--he didn&#039 ; t have the energy to expend on anything except a livelihood. ELY: So what kinds of things did he do, uh, to become a macher? POST: Well, he served. Uh, he served. He became president of the congregation. Then he became, uh, more involved in the general Jewish community. He became president of the federation. And his older brother led the way--he was a--my Uncle Arthur Kling was a real leader. ELY: Ah, I didn&#039 ; t realize he was your uncle. Yes, I know. POST: Yeah, my birth name was Kling. ELY: Right. POST: And so Arthur, you know, was the major deal, and dad, I think, always felt-- ELY: --and he was a Socialist, right? POST: Oh, yeah, he was. ELY: Yes. POST: We used to sing Socialist songs at Passover at his house. Uh, yes, he was. ELY: Let&#039 ; s describe Passover at, uh--with you and Arthur Kling. POST: Oh, it-- ELY: --what was that like? POST: --it was fun. I mean, we used the regular, ordinary Seder, but when the service was over, we always had--we had, uh, several favorite movement songs that were originally Communist in, in their orientation. Or certainly Socialist. And so--and I didn&#039 ; t realize that until I was a little older, but I learned some good songs at Uncle--at Uncle Arthur&#039 ; s house. ELY: Did you use them later in your own family? POST: Oh, yeah, I still use them. ELY: (laughs) Good. POST: He was a fascinating man. He ran--he was a Socialist. He ran for mayor on the Socialist ticket in &#039 ; 39, and, uh--with Norman Thomas. And I was told when I ran for public office not--don&#039 ; t mention that. Shhh. It&#039 ; s just not Communist, it&#039 ; s Social--don&#039 ; t mention that.&quot ; So the curse. ELY: Um-hm. POST: Too radical. ELY: So did that, um, kind of Socialism that was in your family, did that feel like a Jewish thing, or did it feel like something separate from-- POST: --it felt like a Jewish thing, yeah. ELY: Um-hm. POST: It did. My father used to say all the time when I&#039 ; d complain about something that was happening, &quot ; After the revolution.&quot ; ELY: Um-hm. POST: It was one of my favorite things he said, &quot ; After the revolution.&quot ; ELY: And did your mother take a public role in the community? POST: Yes, she did, but in a very, uh--in a very Jewish way. She became president of Hadassah, and really lived, worked, and died Hadassah. And, uh, she was very devoted to the whole concept of helping Jews in Israel through Hadassah Hospital. ELY: Um-hm. POST: And it was a good outlet for her. I found out later that she didn&#039 ; t give Council of Jewish Women, which I think is a wonderful organization, a tumble because her mother in Terre Haute had been a big macher in Council, but nobody from Council came to visit her when she moved to Louisville. ELY: Hmm. POST: And she had her feelings hurt, so Hadassah got her all. ELY: So do you remember, back then with Hadassah, what your feelings were about Zionism in Israel and-- POST: --no, I just took it all for granted. I mean, it seemed perfectly natural to me that we would be in favor of a homeland, given the history, and especially after the Second World War. I mean. ELY: Now, how old were you while the Holocaust was happening? POST: I was thirteen when the war ended, and one of the thing--one of the experiences I had then really had a lot to do with the way I led my life from then on. I went up to a neighborhood movie house with my younger sister and brother on a Saturday, which we did on a lot of Saturdays. You saw a double feature, you had a newsreel, you had a, a serial, you had a cartoon, you had previews. Got the whole thing for eleven cents. (coughs) Excuse me. And on this particular Saturday, in the newsreel, it showed the opening of the camps, and my sister and brother, who were two and a half years younger than I, I don&#039 ; t think it registered. It registered intensely with me. It--I mean, intensely. I can see those pictures now. It was hard to believe that this had happened, and that human beings had caused this to happen. And I&#039 ; ve often said that my life led to social j--social justice work because of those movies that I saw, the opening of the concentration camps, and what had been done to the people in there, Jews, non-Jews, you know, gypsies, disabled people. Horrible, horrible pictures. Just hard to believe that those had been done by other human beings. And I can&#039 ; t--I went to the Holocaust Museum some years back, and I had to leave after two and a half hours. I just could not integrate it anymore. It was just too damning and too expensive and too exhausting. So I&#039 ; ve never really gotten over--I don&#039 ; t know if you should get over those pictures, but I certainly never have. And I&#039 ; ve had an opportunity to see them, you know, repeatedly, and it just horrifies me. ELY: Um-hm. POST: So when a young girl, who&#039 ; s thirteen or so, I think--or young boy--is exposed to something like that early--and we never talked about it. We didn&#039 ; t talk about these things at home, and I think that was a terrible mistake. But they couldn&#039 ; t. They just couldn&#039 ; t. And not to talk about it meant that it was sort of this private little horror of, of my own. And even today, all these years and years and years later, it just astounds me that these things happened in my lifetime, and that people I know didn&#039 ; t do more than they did, and don&#039 ; t today, to avoid that kind of thing. I get very, very upset. And I know that, about ten or twelve years ago, there was an Italian movie called The Garden of the Finzi-Continis --wonderful movie--about the rise of Hitler and Mussolini in an Italian town, and a very wealthy Italian family who lived in a huge mansion, walled off around the rest of the city. Had tennis courts. Very, very comfortable, rich Italians. And the movie takes place at the time that Mussolini is just organizing, and they don&#039 ; t--they&#039 ; re not aware of it, because they&#039 ; re protected by this law that encloses their garden. And they had relationships with non-Jews, friends, and nobody was affected. At the very ending of, of that film, it shows the family, having packed their suitcases, being herded onto a train, and you knew where the train was gonna go. And I&#039 ; ve had--I&#039 ; ve asked every federation director that we&#039 ; ve had since I saw that movie to bring that movie back for the local Jewish community. It&#039 ; s the best appeal for the un--United Jewish Appeal I could think of. Really, it&#039 ; s just great propaganda for it. But I haven&#039 ; t had any success. It&#039 ; s a brilliant movie. ELY: Hmm. Do, do you know anything about your family&#039 ; s experiences in the Holocaust? Your relatives left-- POST: --no, everybody was-- ELY: --behind in Europe? POST: --over here by then. ELY: Everybody had come? POST: Except an aunt. See this tapestry up here? ELY: Yes. POST: That was brought back by my--one of my mother&#039 ; s aunts, who was married to a Nazi in Germany. The rest of the family had come to the US. She was ready to come over. He divorced her. She was taking care of a--of an upper-class family in Germany--I don&#039 ; t know where--and put off getting over there until the very last minute. When she finally was able to leave Germany and come to the US--it&#039 ; s probably very late, probably &#039 ; 39--maybe, maybe &#039 ; 40--she took this tapestry. It was booty. And it was meant to go on a bench. Oh, you can&#039 ; t even see it from here, can you? ELY: I can see it. POST: Can it be seen on camera? No. I&#039 ; m sorry, camera people. Audience. (Carol laughs) It is quite beautiful. ELY: Yes. POST: And it ended up in Terre Haute, Indiana. I was up there one time and my aunt was going through stuff she had in her attic, and she pulled that out and said nobody wanted it, and so I took it. And I had it hanging in my, uh, dining room. My husband said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s not going in my house.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Oh, yes, that is.&quot ; I was really proud of having it. ELY: Um-hm. POST: It was sort of victory. ELY: So thirteen, learning about the Holocaust, being exposed to these horrors, did it make you feel vulnerable here in America? POST: Sure. It had to. I mean, to the degree that you could even imagine such a terrible thing going on. Sure. ELY: And you said it motivated you, even at that age. Did you know what form that wor--that work in the world was going to take for you? POST: No. ELY: No? POST: No. Not at all. I mean, I had to put that together bit by bit over a period of a couple years. ELY: Were there, uh, any people in your youth beside your parents who were an influence on you? Your uncle, you mentioned. POST: Mm-mm. Not really. ELY: So what issues did you first take on? What injustices did you first start to notice and-- POST: --well, it was pretty-- ELY: --work for? POST: --easy, because I came of age at the time of the--of, of the rise of the Civil Rights Movement, the very first beginnings back in the late forties and fifties, early fifties. So I felt immediately--I felt, um, an affinity for that campaign. I felt that I belonged with the people who were demonstrating then for, uh, full participation--full, full citizenship. There were demonstrations here in Louisville. And I, I was just--I was with it. I was just with it from the beginning when I left Louisville. ELY: Now, you left to go to college, is that right? POST: IU. ELY: Where did you go? POST: Bloomington, Indiana University. And I joined the NAACP at IU. Uh, it wasn&#039 ; t very active. Later, I joined the NAACP here and became a friend of a man named Lyman Johnson, who was a guru to the NAACP. Wonderful, wonderful man. Uh, the grandson of slaves. And in fact, one night, it--I had an interesting experience with him. He came to dinner one night, and after dinner he sat down with the children, or some of them, and told them what it was like to be the grandson of a slave. The next night, my father-in-law and my mother-in-law came to supper, and after dinner, he sat down with my children and told them what it was like to be the son--to be a Russian Jew and get hidden, every Passover, under the floorboards when the Cossacks rolled by their house in, in Russia. So here my kids had, you know, both sides. ELY: And you could see the parallel? POST: Oh, yeah. But you know, I don&#039 ; t think it impacted them at all. I don&#039 ; t know. I&#039 ; ve never talked about it to them, but. ELY: Well, back when you were in college and you were part of the NAACP, did you feel like your understanding of the world was changing, and your place in it? POST: No. ELY: No? POST: No. ELY: Just-- POST: --I didn&#039 ; t- ELY: --continuing the path you were-- POST: --yeah-- ELY: --on. Did you, uh, join any Jewish groups in college, or do any further study? POST: No, no. I was really into boys, and just getting my degree. ELY: Um-hm. POST: And then I got married very quickly. ELY: So how and when did you meet your husband, and tell us-- POST: --he was-- ELY: --a little bit about him. POST: --part of the Jewish community here in Louisville, and he was very smart, and I thought, at the time, that&#039 ; s all that mattered, really. ELY: Hmm. POST: And, uh, we were co-chairs of the--of the student Jewish un--United Jewish Appeal in high school and college for a time. But he left and took a summer job at a camp somewhere, and left me holding all the, the, the bag, cleaning up this-- ELY: --doing the work for the-- POST: --yeah-- ELY: --appeal. POST: --which was a--it was a pattern that--(Carol laughs)--held true for many, many years. ELY: And what was your husband&#039 ; s name? POST: Edward Post. He was very smart. In some regards. ELY: So you got married, and did you find that he-- POST: --we got married very, very young. We got married in the way that virgins used to get married ; in a hurry so we wouldn&#039 ; t get pregnant if we experimented. And that was not unreal. ELY: Um-hm. POST: Uh, that was not unreal. It was very unhealthy. This was all pre-pill, pre-reliable birth control, and Jewish mothers, just like mothers everywhere, were very worried that their daughters were gonna mess around with some guy they were crazy about and get pregnant. And it happened, and my mother let me know that she was worried about that, which I didn&#039 ; t appreciate at all, because I thought there was a veiled message here. Uh, but that was fairly common back in the fifties. Not healthy at all. Not good. ELY: So did your husband share your views about politics and religion? POST: I thought he did. He said he did. But when push came to shove, uh, he--it, it was-- ELY: --is this a story you wanna tell, or? POST: Oh, it&#039 ; s okay. He was a lovely guy. I just took it a lot more seriously than he did. And, uh, he was--he was--he had the feed-the-family job, uh, after we got married. We-- ELY: --and what did he do? What was his job? POST: He was a lawyer. ELY: Um-hm. POST: And we had five kids, and that wasn&#039 ; t a, a, a--that wasn&#039 ; t an easy job. So he did more of the technical and the living stuff, and I did the more let&#039 ; s-change-the-world stuff. And he, he really did--he supported me in all that, until much later. And I think--I think that it--much later, it just scared him that we seemed to deviate. ELY: So you had five children? Tell, tell me about-- POST: --still have them. ELY: Yes. POST: Yeah. ELY: I was thinking of the giving birth part. You had them, so. (laughs) POST: Yeah, I did. ELY: So tell me about your, your children and their, their child--we&#039 ; ll stay in the childhood phase now. You can tell me how they ended up later. POST: Well, I had these five kids according to plan, actually. Had four sons, and then I had an accidental pregnancy, although all of my friends were sure that I was still trying for a girl. Well, I&#039 ; d given up that a long time ago. And then the fifth one was--they were all two years apart. It was pretty tidy. The fifth one was a girl. And I was--I, I was so--I was just so incredibly--it was the first time in my life I had to take tranquilizers. I was so--(Carol laughs)--high. A girl. I didn&#039 ; t think I cared that much. And the entire Jewish community in Louisville said, &quot ; Suzy Post finally did it. She finally got that girl.&quot ; It was a whoops, people. It was a whoops who turned out to be a girl. So she&#039 ; s now a social worker in Portland, Oregon. And she did not walk until she was two and a half. ELY: Hmm. POST: Why should she? She had four brothers. They could carry her. ELY: So when your kids were little, were you aware of the gender differences and trying to make sure that your daughter knew she had options, or-- POST: --I don&#039 ; t think-- ELY: --was that still-- POST: --I took that so--I was into-- ELY: --right-- POST: --survival-- ELY: Um-hm. POST: --with five kids. ELY: Yes, with five, I can see that. So did your children have a Jewish education? Were you a part-- POST: --they did-- ELY: --of a synagogue-- POST: --they all did-- ELY: --at that point? POST: And the boys all had Bar Mitzvahs. Rachel not. Uh, I must say it&#039 ; s pretty superficial. I mean, Reform Judaism is--approaches these things, but it&#039 ; s pretty superficial in terms of the teaching and the studying. ELY: Hmm. Were you at Beth Shalom? POST: Yeah. ELY: Yeah. POST: And it was okay with me. I, I actually had a long debate with myself, since I didn&#039 ; t believe in any of this stuff anymore. I didn&#039 ; t particularly wanna bring them up in the Jewish tradition, because I think life is bigger than that, generally speaking, and I finally concluded that if I exposed them to Judaism and a Jewish--and they had a Jewish, uh, beginning, it would be easier for them to reject it later than to acquire something that would really be meaningful to them. So we did it--I did it such--that way. ELY: So what had changed for you? Because you said you were a pretty good girl, and you went to-- POST: --well-- ELY: --temple. POST: I value--I valued then, and I value now, any of the things that matter to--that can matter to us and help us determine what kinds of choices we make in life. And I think religion of any kind does that, and mine was Jewish. I mean, it helps--it help--it helps you decide what&#039 ; s right and what&#039 ; s wrong, what&#039 ; s good and what&#039 ; s evil. I mean, those are the things that religion gives you, sort of signs along the way of which road you should take or follow. And when I was very young, I started to realize that. Uh, and I still think that&#039 ; s true. It&#039 ; s--I think it&#039 ; s easier to reject something in, in life than it is to necessarily acquire it, because in acquiring it, you do it much later, and so you&#039 ; ve missed all these particular, uh, year rings on the tree. So rationalization, but it worked for me. ELY: Do you feel that there are particular values within Judaism that you took with you that made you the activist you became? POST: No-- ELY: --as opposed to general religious values? POST: No, I think the experience of being a Jew at the time of the Holocaust is what determined where I went and how, &#039 ; cause I was sorely affected by the Second World War and what happened to, to people then. It, it became my, uh, cause to love, and I felt that--I felt then that knowing about it-- ELY: (coughs) I&#039 ; m sorry, we&#039 ; re gonna need to do it again. So do you feel that there were any particularly Jewish values as opposed to generally religious values that have motivated what you&#039 ; ve done with your life? POST: No, I can&#039 ; t say that. I think that I was always aware--one of the major things that motivated me was I was always aware of my minority status as a Jew. Very aware of that. And that&#039 ; s probably exactly what me made so--made me so sensitive to the Civil Rights Movement, the attitude toward blacks in this country at the time. Probably still. It was just like mother&#039 ; s milk. I&#039 ; m a Jew, I&#039 ; m a tiny minority. You know. This is--this is what has happened to my people over--this is what&#039 ; s happening to this other group of people. So it was very easy to make an identification that way. ELY: Um-hm. What--so what was the relationship between the Jewish community and the African American community like in Louisville-- POST: --it didn&#039 ; t exist-- ELY: --at the time? POST: It didn&#039 ; t exist. The relationship had to do with--the Jewish community had black maids, and that was about it. ELY: Some people have talked about how Jewish storekeepers were more likely to serve African American customers than some of the big-- POST: --well, Byck&#039 ; s-- ELY: --department stores. POST: --Byck&#039 ; s. Mary Helen Byck, who was a member of the Democratic State Central Committee, did. I think that was the primary one. There were some small, uh, department stores on side streets closer to where the black people lived that had a clientele, but right downtown in the heart of Louisville, it was only Byck&#039 ; s. ELY: So you were unusual as a Jewish person to get involved with the NAACP in Louisville, is that true? POST: Yes. ELY: Did you feel like you had support from the Jewish community, or-- POST: --I didn&#039 ; t care. ELY: --not? POST: No, I didn&#039 ; t think about that. ELY: And was there opposition to what you were doing in-- POST: --no-- ELY: --the community? POST: I mean, there were people who shrugged their shoulders and said, &quot ; Well, she&#039 ; s crazy.&quot ; And, uh, when I graduated from Atherton High School, in an all-girls class, all-white-girls class, my, uh, future prediction was that I was gonna be collecting money for the Louisville--for the Urban League in the Fiji islands when I was older. ELY: In the Fiji islands? POST: In the Fiji islands. So the Urban League gave me an award about twenty years ago, and I got up and I read this to them, and everybody was very tickled. ELY: Um-hm. POST: I said, &quot ; I didn&#039 ; t get anything, folks. It&#039 ; s not my fault.&quot ; ELY: Yes. So, uh, did you--tell me about what it was like working with the NAACP in those early years when you were one of the few Jewish people. One of few-- POST: --um-- ELY: --white people, I guess. POST: It was a porty--pretty--it was not anything that I could really remember well, because it was pretty moribund then-- ELY: --um-hm-- POST: --as it is now. Um, the NAACP has never, in this part of the country, or in--not--let me retract that--in Louisville, had a very vigorous membership. ELY: Um-hm. POST: Very meaningful. Uh. ELY: So who could you partner with to work on these issues of injustice? Is that when the ACLU came into the picture? POST: Uh, obliquely. ELY: Um-hm. POST: Obliquely. It, it, it wasn&#039 ; t until I was married that the NAACP was in the hands of one of my colleagues, uh, Lyman Johnson, that he was active enough to get it going that it became something that really mattered in terms of where I put my energy. Although we had other experiences in Louisville with an open housing law. ELY: Right, and when, when was that? What was the open housing fight? Sixties? POST: Yeah. It really divided the city. I mean, it got very, very--the city became very volatile over this. There was a huge opposition to open housing, which only means that people could move anywhere they wanted to move. And obviously, there were those who didn&#039 ; t want that to happen. ELY: Right. And did you--at, at that point, were Jewish leaders speaking out on these-- POST: --some of us-- ELY: --issues? POST: Some of us were. I know my husband got involved, and there were two or three others. Yes. ELY: Um-hm. POST: That was sort of the, the point in Louisville&#039 ; s Jewish history, Louisville and Jewish history and the black community, that something really happened that mattered. It, it--then again, there were some Jews, not very many, who got involved during school desegregation. ELY: Right, and that was in the seventies? POST: That was in eighty, 1980. ELY: Huh, late. POST: And, uh, I was one of the lead pl--I was the only white plaintiff with children in public schools at that time. And so that gave me some legitimacy to be able to speak to these things. It also lost me a lot of friends. ELY: Um-hm. POST: No, not friends ; people who I knew. ELY: Was this a time when a lot of people were going to private schools-- POST: --yes-- ELY: --so that they could-- POST: --yes-- ELY: --avoid that? POST: Yes. ELY: So by keeping your children in the public schools, that was a statement? POST: Yes. ELY: How did your children feel about it? POST: They didn&#039 ; t know they had a choice. I mean, I don&#039 ; t think any of them voiced any concern. ELY: Hmm. POST: It was just what you did. ELY: Did you, um, feel exposed in a way because you were Jewish? Was that ever used against you by the people who were opposed? POST: Uh, no, but I did feel exposed, I&#039 ; ve always felt exposed as a Jew, when I worked with African Americans in large numbers. I&#039 ; ve always been very, very conscious--if I&#039 ; m doing some organizing in the Louisville community that attracts black participation, I&#039 ; ve always been very certain to speak in front of the group as a--as a--as an American Jewish woman. And I got that Jewish out there as fast as I could, because I didn&#039 ; t want to encounter any anti-Semitism in that movement, in that campaign, at that time. So it was a way of saying, don&#039 ; t rub my nose in your anti-Semitism ; I don&#039 ; t wanna hear about it. ELY: Did you-- POST: --and I didn&#039 ; t. ELY: --expect to hear anti-Semitism? Was that something-- POST: --oh, yeah-- ELY: --that was-- POST: --yeah. ELY: --common? POST: Oh, yeah. ELY: Um-hm. POST: But I didn&#039 ; t once I got that message out, so. And I think--I like to think--that my participation was welcome and had some effect on the African Americans who might previously thought that all Jews washed our hands of any participation in the minority community. I mean, I like to think that. I&#039 ; ve always had great relationships, outside of the Jewish community, with black people. Uh, the fact that I was Jewish was never an issue, but of course I wouldn&#039 ; t let it be. ELY: (coughs) So you were allies in the same cause, so-- POST: --yeah. ELY: Who were some of the people that you worked with? POST: Well, Dr. Johnson, of course. John Johnson. I mean, there&#039 ; s just a li--an endless list of names of people, most of them dead now, of course. And the young ones are still around, and I still see and work with some of them from time to time. ELY: And was the ACLU involved? POST: No, not until I got involved, no. ELY: You, uh, became involved in a lot of movements, not just--&quot ; just&quot ; --open housing, school desegregation. You got involved in opposition to the Vietnam War as well. That must have been, uh, a struggle. POST: That was, uh, painful. It was painful. But I worked with another woman, and in the end we were very, very effective at what we did. And Ben and I were just recounting--my son and I were just recounting, uh, the day of his Bar Mitzvah, I had to break away early from the celebration after it was over to race downtown for a demonstration against the Cambodian bombings, and we had six thousand people, largest demonstration in Louisville&#039 ; s history, protesting that move by our government. So it&#039 ; s impossible to--you don&#039 ; t get involved in social justice and stick with one issue, because everything affects everything else, so that was--that was interesting. ELY: Did you find that you had different supporters and opponents when it came to the anti-war movement than you-- POST: --uh-- ELY: --had had before? POST: Only my--only my husband was not supportive at first. Uh, he, he used to say he thought that the--he had to believe that they know what they&#039 ; re doing there. But eventually, he came around and realized that the whole thing was a ruse. So. I--you know, there were--we--I made a lot of enemies, there&#039 ; s no question, especially in the Jewish community. ELY: Um-hm. POST: Because I was pretty far ahead of them. ELY: Wasn&#039 ; t there a rabbi who was fired because he was-- POST: --Rabbi Pearly, my rabbi. ELY: Right. Ah. POST: Because he, he was not spending enough time with his congregants. He had gotten involved in the anti-war movement. ELY: So you partnered with him in-- POST: --yeah-- ELY: --the move-- POST: --yeah. ELY: What happened to him? POST: Um, he died eventually. ELY: Oh, oh. POST: Very unusual. He-- ELY: --we all do. POST: He took a job as the director of the Human Relations Commission. ELY: Um-hm. POST: And later hired me to do women&#039 ; s stuff through the commission. ELY: Well, that was my next question. You moved to the feminist movement then, and I&#039 ; m sure it felt like a seamless transition as you-- POST: --it did. ELY: So how did you get involved there? POST: Well, it was like mother&#039 ; s milk. I mean, you couldn&#039 ; t--you couldn&#039 ; t be concerned about the inequities that occurred in this country to people of color or poor people and not realize that we&#039 ; re talking about women here, too, kids. So yeah, it was--that was not a leap. ELY: Was that something you worked on in the Jewish community? Because at that point, there were some differences in the way women were treated-- POST: --oh, indeed-- ELY: --within-- POST: --there were. ELY: --Judaism. POST: I was not welcome in that community at that time, particularly. In fact, I wasn&#039 ; t welcome--I had gone to it to ask it to support a group I started called the Kentucky Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. Whew, the committee chair was horrified, and I really left there with a terribly negative feeling about where the Jewish community was. That was a long time ago. ELY: Well, in the Reform movement, women had had more e--equality-- POST: --right-- ELY: --than in the conservative and orthodox-- POST: --right, right-- ELY: --movements, obviously. POST: But look how all that&#039 ; s come around. ELY: Yes. It&#039 ; s changed a lot. POST: Yeah. ELY: So did you feel you were fighting it within your religious identity, or was it more a political thing in the--in the context of America? POST: It was the latter. I never saw myself as only functioning within the Jewish community, either the synagogue or anything else, so I didn&#039 ; t--I didn&#039 ; t limit myself. So I just didn&#039 ; t pay any attention to that. ELY: Did you, uh, ever sit on the boards of any of these Jewish organizations, lead the community, or were you-- POST: --no-- ELY: --more in the-- POST: --no-- ELY: --general community? POST: Right. ELY: But you were on the Human Rights Commission? POST: Human Relations Commission. ELY: Human Relations. POST: Yeah ELY: Sorry. So you ended up working for the city? POST: City county. ELY: City county. POST: Yes. And Rabbi Pearly was the director at that time. So I had a wonderful professional life with the commission, and did some really great work there. I did a lot of good work for women in prisons and jails, which had been neglected historically. And so I&#039 ; m very happy for my eight years there. ELY: So what are some things you&#039 ; ve been involved with recently? POST: And thinking of anything I&#039 ; ve done from a feminist--in a feminist way, nothing really. I mean, I&#039 ; m just not involved in much of anything that I wasn&#039 ; t previously involved in, and part of that&#039 ; s great, because there&#039 ; s so many young--wonderful young women. They don&#039 ; t need me, really. ELY: Well, do you feel there are people you&#039 ; ve mentored who can carry on your work? POST: Oh, yeah, I do. There&#039 ; s-- ELY: --um-hm-- POST: --especially in terms of housing and social justice stuff. Yes, I do. And they&#039 ; re great. ELY: And you&#039 ; ve--some--you&#039 ; ve been active with gay rights issues? POST: Well, you say active. I mean, those are all part of a, a panoply of programs and issues that--it&#039 ; s like a big bre--bread. ELY: Um-hm. POST: Braid of challah. Everything is really--leads to-- ELY: --a very Jewish metaphor there. POST: Yeah, yeah. ELY: Um-hm. POST: So they&#039 ; re all connected. So you know. ELY: Are there times when you felt that being Jewish was really an asset because you could speak in a different way about things? POST: I don&#039 ; t think so, but I&#039 ; ve never thought along those terms, and it&#039 ; s possible that it--that there were times when it was. But I never felt it. ELY: Well, the flip side is I&#039 ; m going to say, were there any times when you really felt it was a liability, that because of who you were, it was difficult to speak up about something? POST: No. ELY: So just to turn back to the personal for a minute, um, where are your children and grandchildren now, and what kind of lives have they-- POST: --well-- ELY: --created? POST: Except for the one who&#039 ; s sitting here with us in this room, who your-- ELY: --we might talk about him. POST: --audience cannot see and doesn&#039 ; t know about, the eldest is a professor at Penn State, in Pennsylvania. His brother Steven is a math professor in Madison, Wisconsin. Ben is here, uh, working in Louisville. Daniel is a--an attorney in California. And my only daughter, Rachel, is involved with the homeless coalition in Portland, Oregon. So I have five children in five states, and none of them is a non-stop flight away, and I am mad. (Carol laughs) I am mad about that. ELY: And have they continued to identify with Judaism? Have they-- POST: --I don&#039 ; t know the answer to that. ELY: Um-hm. POST: I mean, I think the first one definitely has, and the fourth one, because they had Bat Mitzvahs, and Bar Mitzvahs. I don&#039 ; t know about the second. I don&#039 ; t think they do. Uh, and I don&#039 ; t know what Rachel&#039 ; s gonna do. Her daughter&#039 ; s only eight right now. ELY: Hmm. Do you gather them all together for Seders and sing Socialist songs? POST: I wish we could. I wish we could. No. They&#039 ; re too far away. It&#039 ; s too hard for them to get away and--we gather them together when their mother has lu--uh, lung cancer and may die. They all come running, so. ELY: So that does it? POST: Yeah, that&#039 ; ll do it. ELY: That brings them-- POST: --that&#039 ; ll do it. ELY: --together. Maybe a really good Seder with-- POST: --yeah, yeah. ELY: --Socialist songs would do it. POST: I would hope. ELY: So, um, just some kind of global questions here. How, how have you seen things change in the Jewish community in your lifetime as far as what people are involved with, what they care about? What, um, what pulls people together as a community? POST: Well, I think that this--the Louisville Jewish community, today, as I know it, is so much more affluent than the community in which I grew up, that the things it does programmatically are totally different. Um. I mean, there&#039 ; s just no comparison. It, it can do almost anything it wants to do, and so there are people in the Jewish community today who will go to Israel, you know, every other year, because of the ties that it--that they have. ELY: And have you traveled to Israel? POST: No. I really regret it that I haven&#039 ; t. ELY: Um-hm. POST: Really regret it. ELY: Is, uh, Zionism anything that you&#039 ; ve been involved with in any way, pro, con, in-- POST: --uh, peripherally-- ELY: --this later part of your life? POST: --peripherally. And I would love to go to Israel, but it&#039 ; s never happened at the right time, or when I&#039 ; ve had the money to be able to do it. ELY: Um-hm. POST: But there&#039 ; s life in the old girl yet, so you can&#039 ; t tell. ELY: Who knows. Yes. And what do you see as the big issues now facing this community, Louisville? Obviously there&#039 ; s been progress, but what&#039 ; s the work ahead? POST: I think it&#039 ; s, uh, to maintain some integrity as a--as a total community at a time when there&#039 ; s so many other possibilities, and when finances are not gonna restrict Jews from moving outside the mediate--immediate community. ELY: Um-hm. POST: So I think it&#039 ; s--it could be anything that people want it to be. ELY: And do you feel that there are changes you&#039 ; re still working to create, either through activist work or through your example, or do you feel that the torch has been passed and you&#039 ; ve-- POST: It&#039 ; s practically out. (laughs) ELY: Done--well, you&#039 ; ve done what-- POST: --it&#039 ; s been-- ELY: --you&#039 ; ve come here to do. POST: --passed, and it&#039 ; s about to go out. ELY: Um-hm. Well, I know that many people have really been inspired by what you&#039 ; ve done, and you&#039 ; ve really made a huge difference in the world, and there are-- POST: --well, thank you for saying that. ELY: --very few people I think you can say that about, that-- POST: --well-- ELY: --they&#039 ; ve inspired so many. POST: -Nor can anyone who&#039 ; s doing this work say that that&#039 ; s all they have to do, because it&#039 ; s never finished. Social justice work, never finished. ELY: So is there anything I haven&#039 ; t asked you that you would like to say, or any words that you want to put out there? POST: Well, I would just like people to know that living and working as a Jew in a larger community has been really enriching to me, because I&#039 ; ve had my Jewish heritage to draw from, but I&#039 ; ve also had the larger, non-Jewish world to draw from, and so I feel it&#039 ; s just all been a blessing, and that I&#039 ; m very--I&#039 ; m very, very blessed for having had this experience as a Jew, and as a Jew who&#039 ; s worked in the larger community. It&#039 ; s been wonderful. I&#039 ; ve met great people. I&#039 ; ve had some fabulous experiences. And not everybody can say that. ELY: Well, thank you very much for sharing this-- POST: --you&#039 ; re welcome. ELY: --with us. POST: You did very good. ELY: (laughs) Thank you. [End of interview.] 4 All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh402_jk037_post_ohm.xml 2016oh402_jk037_post_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh402_jk037_post_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Suzanne Post, September 16, 2016 Description An account of the resource Suzy Post was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1933 during the Great Depression. Both sets of her grandparents immigrated to the United States from Germany in the early 1900s, bringing with them Reformed Jewish traditions. She recalls the Jewish community as a crucial part of her Jewish identity and remembers thinking interfaith marriage was a “horror.” She recounts the lasting impact of her first exposure to the Holocaust, viewing footage of concentration camps at the movies. These images sparked her passion for justice movements and working to help minorities. She became involved with the civil rights movement through participation in the Louisville NAACP. During the 1960s civil rights movement, Post worked to establish the controversial open housing law in Louisville to allow people, regardless of race, to live anywhere they wanted. She was also involved in the 1960s anti-war movements against the Vietnam War, and in the feminist movement. In 1987, Post started a support group called the Kentucky Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty which advocates to end the death penalty in Kentucky. Post concludes the interview by discussing her family’s and Jewish communal life today. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh402_jk037 Subject The topic of the resource Childhood Louisville (Ky.) Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Discrimination. World War, 1939-1945--Concentration camps Race relations--United States Families. Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Jews--Identity. Religion Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Civil rights movements--United States African Americans--Relations with Jews. Social movements--United States Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/1821900039632748922df78bbc5b3ccf.jpeg 87800626c3d194a48bab01b5c8b03b99 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Carol Ely Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Judy Freundlich Tiell Interview Keyword Emigration and immigration. Immigrants Genealogy Higher education Baltimore (Md.) Marriage Social work education--United States. OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh401_jk036 Interview with Judy Freundlich Tiell, September 14, 2016 2016oh401_jk036 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Families. Religion Jews--Identity. Louisville (Ky.) Social service. Social workers. Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Emigration and immigration. Immigrants Genealogy Higher education Baltimore (Md.) Marriage Social work education--United States. Judy Freundlich Tiell Carol Ely 1:|20(4)|41(9)|52(10)|64(7)|81(9)|96(4)|109(2)|129(6)|143(6)|177(5)|189(3)|202(1)|214(11)|226(8)|247(12)|266(12)|282(12)|303(1)|317(1)|335(9)|349(1)|368(14)|387(5)|398(10)|409(15)|425(6)|439(5)|454(12)|467(4)|479(15)|501(1)|515(6)|544(6)|569(4)|598(3)|616(7)|637(1)|650(3)|665(3)|681(1)|697(16)|709(1)|728(6)|748(1)|760(14)|774(1)|788(9)|801(3)|812(15)|831(10)|844(5)|858(12)|877(1)|891(2)|903(13)|917(11)|929(8)|948(16) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253332033&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 0 Family history It's September 14th, 2016. I'm Carol Ely. And I'm here with Judy Freundlich Tiell from Jewish Family and Career Services. Tiell describes how her family's connections and wealth helped her maternal and paternal sides of the family immigrate to America. She details antisemitic acts, including imprisonment of family members and burning of buildings, that drove specifically her mother's side of the family to leave their home. She also describes her mother's separation from her family during the bombings in London before they could make it to America. Anti-Semitism ; Bad Cannstatt (Germany) ; German Jews ; Kristallnacht Emigration and immigration. ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Immigrants 48.806, 9.214 17 Bad Cannstatt (Germany), hometown of Judy's mother's family. 316 Early influences on her Jewish identity So do you, uh, have a sense of what Jewish life back in Germany was like for them and then what they brought with them as far as--I mean obviously Jewish identity. But rituals, customs, foods. Tiell explains how her family and her community in West Orange, New Jersey helped shape her faith and Jewish identity. Specifically, she references Rabbi Joachim Prinz, a well-known, liberal, social activist who came from Germany and knew her family. Tiell talks about rallies, social movements, and parades she was a part of in New York during her teenage years. She also talks about a trip to Israel she took with her Hebrew high school when she was sixteen. Family life ; Israel ; Jewish communities ; Rabbi Joachim Prinz Families. ; Jewish children ; Jews--Identity. ; Religion ; Social movements--United States 40.723, -74.206 17 View B'nai Abraham of Newark (N.J.) 595 Education--Becoming a Jewish social worker So had you decided, uh, back then on a career in social work? Tiell describes her process in choosing social work as a career path. She states that she received her undergraduate degree in psychology from Brown and earned her dual masters in social work and in Jewish history from the University of Maryland. Tiell explains that she was unique in wanting to work with Jewish family services as it was sometimes viewed as less Jewish than other organizations. Brown University ; Clinical Social Services ; Federation ; Jewish history ; University of Maryland Education ; Higher education ; Jews--Identity. ; Social service. ; Social work education--United States. ; Social workers. 41.8262, -71.4032 17 Brown University 744 Early career as a social worker Um, the Jewish Family Service in Baltimore when I was there and did my internship there, I got a fabulous clinical internship. Tiell details her early experiences in the Baltimore Jewish Family Service, where she gained clinical and leadership experience. She also worked with Jewish family life education groups. Following these experiences, she had many job offers but heeded advice she had received to go to a small community where she could branch out and use her many talents. Jewish Family Service, Baltimore ; Jewish social work ; Leadership Baltimore (Md.) ; Social service. ; Social workers. 39.283333, -76.616667 17 Baltimore (Md.) 1052 Getting acquainted with Louisville and the Jewish Social Service Agency So you arrived in Louisville. You discovered there were Jews in Kentucky. Tiell discusses her arrival in Louisville in 1979 and her early roles at the Jewish Social Service Agency. She implemented different programs to help the community, including classes on topics from Jewish parenting to stress management. She also talks about meeting her husband, Bob, who then worked at Jewish Vocational Services before their two organizations joined forces. She also discusses the early history of these Jewish community service organizations. Jewish Social Service Agency,Jewish Vocational Service, Louisville Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Social service. ; Social workers. 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 1341 Growth of the Jewish Family and Career Service Program in Louisville So since the merger and since you--you became involved, shortly after that, right? Tiell explains how the Jewish Family and Career Service Program has grown their staff and come to serve more people over the years. They strive to help all people in the community learn skills that they need to succeed. She also describes partnerships with other Jewish and non-Jewish organizations, including the synagogue, Catholic ministries, as well as refugee and resettlement programs. Tiell took over as executive director of Jewish Family and Career Services between 2003 and 2004. Assimilation ; Jewish communities ; Tikkun Olam Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Social service. ; Social workers. 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 1559 Balancing services to the Jewish population and Louisville’s community at large So in, in your time with all these partnerships and working in the wider community have you, uh, felt any strains or issues around the fact that you're a Jewish-identified organization? Tiell describes the struggles of serving both the Jewish and non-Jewish communities while maintaining a strong Jewish identity in her organization. The Jewish Family and Career Service offers may different services which makes it hard to have a concrete identity. She also mentions the lack of understanding that non-Jewish clients have of Jewish life. Today, there is a large amount of non-Jewish funding for the organization, but they strive to keep their Jewish identity strong. Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Assimilation ; Jewish life Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Social service. ; Social workers. 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 1671 Jewish Family and Career Service Program--Relocation and building symbolism I--I think, uh, even your building has symbolism. Tiell discusses the Jewish symbolism associated with the new building for Jewish Family and Career Service. This helps maintain and represent the Jewish identity of the organization. She also talks about the locations of the old buildings and how the facility has moved as the Jewish Family and Career Service has grown. Jewish Family Services ; Jewish Social Service Agency ; Jewish Vocational Service Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Social service. ; Social workers. 38.225, -85.651 17 View Jewish Family &amp ; amp Career Service Building, Louisville (Ky.) 1840 Marriages and backgrounds of her children Well, let, let me go back a little bit to your personal story here. Tiell talks about the lives of her two children: Jeff who was born in 1984 and Scott who was born in 1988. Both of her children went through Sunday school and Hebrew school. Her family belongs to Temple Shalom where Rabbi Stan Miles married her to Bob and also oversaw and facilitated his conversion to Judaism. Converting to Judaism ; Hebrew schools ; Rabbi Stan Miles ; Sunday school ; Temple Shalom Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Marriage ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 1991 Jewish religious and family life in Louisville Mm. Uh, Temple Shalom was started probably about the time-- Tiell talks about being a part of Temple Shalom in the early days. When she first arrived in 1979 the synagogue did not yet have its own building and services were held at Bellarmine College. In her household, Tiell encouraged her children to branch out and embrace people outside of the Jewish community. She talks about building strong friendships within the Jewish community and going to services and family Shabbat dinners with them. Assimilation ; Bellarmine College ; Bellarmine University ; Shabbat (also Shabbos, Sabbath) ; Temple Shalom (Louisville, synagogue) Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2189 Leadership and charity work So, uh, as you've been so involved with your professional work in the community have you also, uh, found time to serve on boards or take any other advisory roles or strategic committees... Tiell describes her leadership and charity work through a non-Jewish organization, United Way. She chaired the Council of Agency Execs and has also served on the steering committee for United Way's board. She has also been very involved nationally as the president of the International Association of Jewish Vocational Services. She was also heavily involved with the process that combined two Jewish organizations: Association of Jewish Family and Children's Agencies and the International Association of Jewish Vocational Services. The national organizations she works with look at Jewish services in a holistic light, and she describes how she brings what she learns from them back to her work in Louisville. Association of Jewish Family and Children's Agencies ; Association of Jewish Vocational Services ; International Association of Jewish Vocational Services ; Jewish charities ; Leadership ; United Way Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Volunteers 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2393 Spreading an understanding and appreciation of Judaism Well, I have one question. In a way given everything you've said it seems almost, most like it's kind of a crude question. But have you faced any anti-Semitism personally or professionally? Tiell describes how she deals with situations that could be viewed as a form of anti-Semitism. Instead of being offended by people who do not truly understand her faith, she takes it as an opportunity to teach them. She says a big part of making the Jewish Family and Career Service successful is making people understand that they have similar values and goals. She also talks about helping her children build strong Jewish identities through making a big deal of Jewish practices, but also encouraging them to be understanding of people with other beliefs. Anti-Semitism ; Antisemitism ; Assimilation ; Discrimination ; Jewish charities ; Jewish identity Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2614 Increased assimilation of Jews in Louisville--Positives and negatives Um, you, uh--h, have you seen attitudes within the Jewish community change towards the non-Jewish community? Tiell states that the Louisville community is more accepting of Jews than ever before. She attributes this positive change to the schools becoming less segregated which she thinks helps to facilitate greater cultural acceptance. She does see an issue, however, with losing strong, Jewish leaders to other organizations outside of the Jewish community. She is setting up initiatives in Louisville to get people more interested and involved in Jewish projects. She also has concerns with shifting political views among Jewish citizens and how they may not necessarily align with the missions, or Tikkun Olam, of her Jewish organizations. Assimilation ; Cultural acceptance ; Leadership ; Political involvement ; Tikkun Olam Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 2818 The Jewish Family and Career Service's involvement in the city of Louisville So the community engagement process involves whom at this point? Tiell explains that the Jewish Family and Career Service in Louisville has hired someone to research ways to better serve the Jewish community and get people more involved. She explains that they are trying new things like a school supply shop that children in need can actually come to with their parents to pick up what they need before school. They have also started using social media as a way to reach more people. She also explains how all of their programs are rooted in their Jewish values and missions. She also elaborates on how the JFCS works with other religious organizations outside of the Jewish faith and the local government. Community ; Community involvement ; Jewish charities ; Jewish Family and Career Services (Louisville, Ky.) ; Leadership Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Social service. ; Social workers. 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) 3196 Hopes for the local and national Jewish populations It, it seems like in a way you're in a position to know all of the pressure points in the community, the, the places where things aren't working and the places where they are. Tiell again expresses her thoughts on the need for strong leaders who are dedicated to serving the Jewish community in Louisville. She also notes the need for certain needs of Jewish people to be more well-known, such as a recognition of the number of poor and hungry Jews in Louisville. She also talks about the need for greater teamwork and partnership. She thinks the Jewish community could benefit from being more willing to be flexible and reach out. Assimilation ; Cultural acceptance ; Jewish charities ; Jewish communities ; Leadership Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Social service. ; Social workers. ; Volunteers 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) interview Judy Tiell discusses her family history and the early influences on her Jewish identity. She talks about her education and career as a social worker. She talks about how she came to Louisville to work for the Jewish Social Service Agency (now called Jewish Family and Career Service Program). She discusses their work both in the Jewish community and the Louisville community at large, and talks about the types of difficulties they face. She talks about her own family and the role of Judaism in their lives. ELY: It&#039 ; s September 14th, 2016. I&#039 ; m Carol Ely. And I&#039 ; m here with Judy Freundlich Tiell from Jewish Family &amp ; Career Services. We&#039 ; re doing an oral history interview for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, sponsored by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. Thank you for doing this with me, Judy. FREUNDLICH TIELL: I&#039 ; m--I&#039 ; m glad to be here. ELY: Yeah, I appreciate it. And we&#039 ; re going to start with some questions about your personal and family background, and we&#039 ; ll move through your life somewhat chronologically and talk about how Jewish Family &amp ; Career Services has evolved and what it means in the--in the community of Louisville. So we&#039 ; re just going to begin at the very beginning. Just tell me when and where you were born. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Okay. I was born, uh, January 8th, 1955, uh, in New Jersey. Uh, I grew up in New Jersey. And so, uh, I grew up in West Orange but I was actually born in Newark. ELY: Okay. And is your family a, uh, New York-New Jersey background? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Actually I am first generation American. ELY: Ah. FREUNDLICH TIELL: So both of my parents came to the United States in the thirties, uh, from Germany as children. So, uh, you know, it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s sort of a different kind of thing. So, my mother&#039 ; s family came after Kristallnacht, uh, through, uh, through England. My father&#039 ; s family came in &#039 ; 37, uh, they were--they had a little more foresight and came over a little earlier. ELY: So, how were they able to get out? Do you know their stories? FREUNDLICH TIELL: I do know their stories. Uh, we had a--the--my father&#039 ; s family had planned and had decided they needed to leave, and they were able to bring over, uh, many of their things. In fact part of the story was that my grandfather shipped his car over in fact. ELY: Wow. FREUNDLICH TIELL: And, uh, were--they were able to come and they, uh, moved to New York and then eventually ended up in Roselle Park, New Jersey, where my grandfather and grandmother owned a hardware store, which, uh, my father then ran as he got older. Uh, my mother&#039 ; s family was a little bit different. Uh, they have a very complex story of, umm, they lived next door to the synagogue, uh, and my mother recalled as a child Kristallnacht, uh, basically the fires coming and people throwing fireballs into not only the synagogue window but their window. Uh, the next day my grandfather, who owned a large, uh, smelting business, was arrested with, uh, his father. They had many many--they were well loved in their town. They grew up in a suburb of Stuttgart called Cannstatt. They were well loved, uh, by many of their customers, many of whom were not Jewish. And my grandmother went to one of their customers who happened to be a Nazi and he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to come to your apartment in full regalia. Don&#039 ; t be scared. But I&#039 ; m going to get them out of jail basically.&quot ; And that&#039 ; s exactly what happened. And my guess is there were some bribes involved. They were lucky enough that they had some resources. They then had family in England who, uh, through those letters and through a variety of means, they were able to go to England. Uh, my mother was then separated from her family, this poor nine-year-old child. Because of the bombing they moved all the children out of London. She went to a family, uh, for about six months in the, you know, the--in somewhere outside of London. And then when they were able to get together in, uh, the December of four--December of &#039 ; 39, they, uh, took up--they were able to come to America, because again they had family here. So they were very lucky. We--we had family who, uh, were through--throughout the world. I mean I have cousins in Europe, I have cousins in South America, uh, everybody was able to get out and pretty much, uh, get somewhere. ELY: Mm, so it sounds like you grew up knowing your grandparents. FREUNDLICH TIELL: I did. Uh, uh, I--at least three of them. My--my maternal grandfather died, uh, five months before I was born. But my maternal grandmother lived with us my entire life. And, uh, my paternal grandparents, we lived probably twenty minutes away, and we spent a lot of time with them. So family was very very important in my growing up years. It was a really important value. You know, growing up in a German Jewish community where literally when I was a child I thought everybody was German Jewish. Uh, we spoke some German in the home because my grandmother had had a stroke and--and sh--so reverted back to German as her major language. So I--we, you know, we spoke German as well as certainly English primarily. ELY: Uh, just for the record, what were your parents&#039 ; names and your grandparents&#039 ; ? FREUNDLICH TIELL: My mother was Ilse, uh, Strauss was her maiden name. Ilse Strauss Freundlich. My father was Herman Freundlich. And my grandparents on my paternal side were Ludwig and Elsa. And on my mother&#039 ; s side were, uh, uh, Erna and Theodore. ELY: Mm. So do you, uh, have a sense of what Jewish life back in Germany was like for them and then what they brought with them as far as--I mean obviously Jewish identity. But rituals, customs, foods. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Absolutely. Uh, we, uh, we were fortunate enough that, uh, both Bob, my husband, and myself and then our families were able to travel back, once without my parents and once with my mother, to actually see the towns that they were from, to hear their stories. Uh, their stories were very much a part of our, uh, growing up. My mother&#039 ; s family was more, uh, observant. My father&#039 ; s family was less observant. Uh, but both had very strong Jewish identities. There were--there are lots--there--there were lots of rabbis in my mother&#039 ; s family and I still--my two first cousins are Reform rabbis today. So, uh, our Jewish identity was very very strong. We--we belonged to, uh, a very, uh, strong congregation throughout my growing up years, B&#039 ; nai Abraham in--which started in Newark. Had Rabbi Joachim Prinz, who was very very well known as a, uh, very liberal progressive social activist, uh, who came from Germany and knew my--my mother&#039 ; s family in Germany. Uh, and, uh, it was a very very important part of my growing up, my identity as a Jew and my identity as part of that congregation, uh, and in fact as completely a sidenote, uh, just about two months ago, uh, we had a little reunion of--there were six of us who are--who are--we were all from that same congregation and were very very close growing up, and some of them I hadn&#039 ; t seen since the seventies. ELY: Mm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: So it was a very tight group of people and experiences. ELY: And your neighborhood too was very-- FREUNDLICH TIELL: I grew up in West Orange. ELY: Um-hm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Which was I would say 50 percent Jewish and 50 percent Italian Catholic, but very ethnic. It was, uh, very--I would consider pretty middle-class. Though there were certainly, uh, uh, certainly a combination of every economic group. Uh, the excellent school system. You know, I went all through public schools. Uh, but my identity was both, uh, you know, going to school and had friends of all sorts of, uh, different kinds of people. But I was very very close with my--the--my friends and the people in the congregation. So we led a pretty I would say Jewishly conservative life. We, uh, went to synagogue regularly. Uh, on certain--in West Orange schools were actually closed on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur as many of the east coast schools are. But frequently when I was young I would also go to, uh, we would miss school on like the first day of Sukkot or the first day of Pesach and go to services. We&#039 ; d have many of the--the--the, uh, Jewish observances in our household because as my grandmother was an invalid it was always easier to do that. Uh, and, you know, I grew up having a bat mitzvah, having, uh, going to Hebrew high school as a ancillary school. I tutored Hebrew. I worked in the--the temple office. So being Jewish was pretty important to me. I was a member of Young Judaea. But, uh, I--I wasn&#039 ; t super, uh, I mean youth group was much more social for me. And then a lot of the way I expressed being Jewish as a--as a, you know, a teenager was it was the time where we were saving Soviet Jewry and parading for Israel, and growing up outside of New York City we spent a lot of time in New York at rallies and at meetings and at various kinds of events that were--had some kind of social action piece. ELY: So the social action was important to you early on and that&#039 ; s-- FREUNDLICH TIELL: --it was. ELY: --been a theme in your life. FREUNDLICH TIELL: It has been absolutely a theme in my life. ELY: Um-hm. And, uh, you mentioned Hebrew high school. So you went to Hebrew school, Sunday school, uh, camps, summer camps? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Right. Uh, summer camps actually were through the YMCA. It just happened to be. I didn&#039 ; t--I didn&#039 ; t go to Jewish camps. ELY: Did you travel to Israel at all? FREUNDLICH TIELL: I went to Israel, uh, the summer of my sixteenth--when I was sixteen, with my Hebrew high school. We went with a group from, uh, both my--people from my Hebrew high school and then--and other groups who were out of New Jersey. And we were there for eight weeks. And it was a fabulous experience, uh, you know, touring the country and being involved and just seeing all sorts of kinds of things. Now I&#039 ; ve not been back to Israel, and that&#039 ; s one thing I&#039 ; d like to do. So it&#039 ; s been a long time. ELY: Not been--not been back since then. FREUNDLICH TIELL: No, not since then. ELY: Might be a few changes. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Right. (laughs) ELY: So had you decided, uh, back then on a career in social work? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Now originally I mean I had gone through many things. I was--wanted to be a teacher at one point, an attorney, and I actually went away to college thinking I would go to law school, and really quickly decided that--that I wasn&#039 ; t particularly interested in that. And then got interested in the whole area of social services. And what prompt my initially interest then in Jewish communal service was, uh, as a junior at college--I went to Brown in Rhode Island. I was able to do a, uh, both a work study and an independent study because I was a psychology major, uh, with Jewish Family Service in Providence. And I worked with, uh, both Russians who were immigrating at that point in large numbers and with seniors. I would do everything from take people to job interviews to, uh, go shopping and do friendly visiting for seniors. And, uh, I worked with them my junior and senior year and then they--they hired me on, uh, you know, even, uh, as a work study participant to continue working with them. And I became really interested in the field of--of Jewish social work. So it was through that experience that that led to it. So then at that point I, uh, when I graduated from Brown I had decided I wanted to get--to go to--one of the--my primary interests was to get not only my master&#039 ; s in social work but also my master&#039 ; s in Jewish communal service and, uh, sort of figured out a variety of programs and ended up at the University of Maryland where they have the Baltimore Institute of Jewish Communal Service. So I got both my master&#039 ; s in social work and my master&#039 ; s in Jewish history in a two-year period with special, uh, integrative seminars. It was an interesting process because they were used to having people who wanted to be in the federation world or in the JCC world. I was the first person who really wanted to be in the Jewish family service world. Uh, they had not been used to that because many times the family service was seen as potentially less Jewish or wasn&#039 ; t involved in building Jewish identity in the same way that the center or federation was. So I had to sort of fight some battles and, uh, it was an interesting process. And, uh, I was able to learn a lot, not just about clinical social work, which was, you know, my primary field at that point, but about--about organizational structures. Uh, the Jewish Family Service in Baltimore when I was there and did my internship there, I got a fabulous clinical internship. But they were in the midst of a leadership crisis. They had had a long term executive, uh, die and bas--retire and basically die. They&#039 ; d had a series of execs that weren&#039 ; t working out. And I, uh, was able to shadow and be involved with the current e--th--their exec at that time who also didn&#039 ; t end up working out, but it was a very interesting experience to see how the boards worked, how, uh, how the exec played that different kind of role. And so I--I became--I--I--I had a really--I had good training both in terms of the clinical piece as well as at least some understanding of the admin and the leadership role. And then I got very involved with a staff person at Jewish Family Service in Baltimore who was at that point leading what was very, uh, trendy Jewish family life education groups. And she was a leader in that field. And I learned from her and, uh, loved it. Loved the combination of Jewish education as well as family ideas. So we would run Jewish parenting classes and Jewish women&#039 ; s empowerment groups and all sorts of groups. And it was really fun. And when I started looking for a job I, uh, had really wanted to stay on the east coast, uh, because I&#039 ; m an east coast kind of person, or at least I was at that point. And, uh, got lots of job offers. Uh, NYANA in New York and little federations up in Boston. And I had a great meeting with the director or the--probably the assistant director at the Jewish Family Service in Boston. And he said to me, &quot ; We&#039 ; d love to hire you. Here&#039 ; s three jobs we can give you. But let me tell you my advice.&quot ; He said, &quot ; You&#039 ; re going to be very unhappy in a big agency. You are going to be--you&#039 ; re going to do one thing. You&#039 ; re going to come in as a clinician or you&#039 ; re going to come in doing one thing. And you&#039 ; re not going to like that.&quot ; And his suggestion to me was go to a small community where you can do a variety of activities, and then come back east with figuring out what you really want to do. I&#039 ; d never really thought about it before, it was the best career advice I ever got. ELY: Um-hm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: I&#039 ; d also been a student at the Baltimore, uh, Jewish Family Service, which was very large and very hierarchical. And I didn&#039 ; t like that as well. So the opportunity came up in Louisville, uh, to run and start a Jewish family life education program. And it seemed perfectly permanently made for me, although of course my parents couldn&#039 ; t believe there were Jews in Kentucky, uh. ELY: (laughs) It&#039 ; s a common story, yes. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Common story. That&#039 ; s right. So in 1979 I moved to Louisville and became the coordinator of the new Jewish family life education program and I--I ended up staying. So here I am from 1979. And I&#039 ; ve been at JF--at that point JFVS-- ELY: --huh, right. FREUNDLICH TIELL: --since 1979. ELY: So you really were thrown into a situation in a big city, Baltimore, where you got a chance because it sounds like from the chaos there like you saw a little bit of everything. And what, uh, at--at that point was the Jewish Family Service involved, uh, in the non-Jewish community? Or was it primarily serving the Jewish community? FREUNDLICH TIELL: No, Baltimore had a long history of only serving the Jewish community. Now that has changed. But, uh, they did not accept federal money. They only served the Jewish community. You know, Baltimore Jewish community is large, and was very well funded. And they--at least the Jewish Family Service there was very tight. So my clinical experience was with Jews. I mean I--I did everything from, you know, do marital counseling to work with, uh, uh, I worked in a, uh, in a halfway house for, uh, people with, uh, severe and chronic mental illness. So it was a very good experience both clinically as well as just understanding the field of Jewish communal service. We had been--as a child I was--we were very involved in our synagogue. But we were not at all involved--my parents were not at all involved in the, you know, organized Jewish community and the JCC or in the--their federation. ELY: I was going to ask if your family was in the leadership structures in West Orange, uh. FREUNDLICH TIELL: No. Not at all. Not at all. My mother, you know, most leadership is, you know, my mother was head of the PTA at the temple. Temple was our sort of--our sort of Jewish place. But they were not--my parents were not particularly leaders. My--my father worked long, long, long hours. And, uh, my mom would care for my grandmother. So we, uh, so I did not really know about the federated system until graduate school. It was a whole--that was a whole new opening for me. And that&#039 ; s why part of the issue of their sort of surprise at why anybody would be interested in going into leadership in a Jewish family service was so--I--I didn&#039 ; t understand until I began to see how the, you know, federation had certain kinds of, you know, ideas of what should happen or shouldn&#039 ; t happen. And the roles the--of the different agencies. All of which has changed a lot. ELY: Um-hm. So you arrived in Louisville. You discovered there were Jews in Kentucky. (laughs) FREUNDLICH TIELL: Jews in Kentucky. ELY: And what was the nature of your work at that point? And how did you settle into the community? FREUNDLICH TIELL: So I, uh, I d--I--I&#039 ; ve always been very proud that I moved here really without knowing anyone. And, uh, there I was, you know, young--young woman and came and, you know, uh, and it was a really great opportunity. So I was able to do--I started a variety of Jewish family life education groups. Uh, you know, and ran Jewish parenting classes and adult children of aging parents and Jewish women returning to the career world and stress management, uh, under--all under Jewish auspices. And I also had a clinical, uh, caseload. So I saw individuals and families. ELY: Did you work with Holocaust survivors? I&#039 ; m just curious based on your family. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Not--a little bit. Not--not, uh, not in a particular way. Uh, I mean I worked with some seniors and I was certainly involved with resettlement. So with some of the Russians who--who are now categorized as survivors in different ways. And with some of the seniors. But it wasn&#039 ; t--we didn&#039 ; t, uh, our JFCS never had a specific survivor program. That was all part of our senior adult program. So I began doing that and pretty soon after I, uh, moved to town began dating my now husband, and so Bob and I, uh, actually just celebrated our thirty-fifth wedding anniversary. ELY: Congratulations. FREUNDLICH TIELL: So we, uh, got married in 1981 and then pretty much we were set to be in Louisville. ELY: And he was at the agency already? FREUNDLICH TIELL: He was also at the agency. He had come--he had a background in career counseling. And the Jewish Family &amp ; Career Service, the--the name it&#039 ; s currently known in used to be two separate agencies. It was the Jewish Social Service Agency that was the clinical piece and it was Jewish Vocational Service, which was the career piece. They, uh, merged in the s--late seventies. But Bob came to the agency when it was still Jewish Vocational Service and worked under Dave Dobbins. Dave Dobson, excuse me. Dave Dobson, who, uh, was legendary in terms of his work on careers and college and helping, uh, people get jobs and to understand their career goals. Al Erlen was the Jewish Social Service Agency person. Uh, the two agencies merged. Dave, uh, died unexpectedly of a heart attack and--and Al retired. And the agency merged in the late seventies. And Bob stayed with, uh, as part of that merger. ELY: And the history of--of the, uh, social service part of it I believe goes back to the beginnings of the twentieth century. FREUNDLICH TIELL: We--we f--go back to 1908. Uh, basically as most Jewish family service kinds of agencies or whatever, you know, they&#039 ; re called in various cities really started with sort of that welcoming the stranger sort of a resettlement piece, uh, integrating people into the community. And, uh, you know, working on creating, uh, you know, help for--for Jewish families in need. So we do go back to 1908 and, uh, the--the--and again the Jewish Vocational Service was formed in the forties, around the time of, you know, so many, uh, young adults then going off to college and people coming back from war and needing, you know, different kinds of career search. We were one of the smallest Jewish vocational service cities in the network for many, many years. And, uh, although it was--it was a tough struggle ; it really made a lot of sense in the seventies for that, uh, the organizations to merge. They were seeing many of the same clients and there were lots of overlaps, although the two agencies had very different cultures and different, uh, leadership. But--but that happened in the seventies. And then I came in &#039 ; 79. ELY: And both agencies had been pretty much focused on the Jewish community, uh, at the point where they merged. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Actually a little bit of both. Both agencies always served people in the general community as well. ELY: Okay. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Uh, there was--there were always, uh, clients that were served both in the counseling area as well as in the career service. In fact if you go back and look at, uh, uh, there are people who are, uh, sort of the--the sons and grandsons and granddaughters of some of the--sort of the, uh, the elite of Louisville who all ended up going through and meeting people at the Jewish Family s--Jewish--primarily Jewish Vocational Service for college or career advisement. It was very very well--well known in the non-Jewish community. ELY: So since the merger and since you--you became involved, shortly after that, right? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Right. ELY: How has the agency evolved along with the Jewish community and the non-Jewish community? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Well, there&#039 ; s been a lot of changes. So when I came, uh, Stephanie Spiegel was the executive director. And she retired I&#039 ; m pretty sure it&#039 ; s around 2003, 2004, when I took over as exec. So, uh, but I had--the agency has really evolved a lot. So we&#039 ; ve grown a lot. Uh, both Jewish Social Service Agency and Jewish Vocational Service were very small. They--they each had maybe three people. Now we have a staff of over fifty-five. Uh, we always served the entire community but--but we really look at serving the entire community as part of our values and mission. That is part of our tikkun olam and s--and repairing the world that by providing excellent service to everyone, uh, helps both the community to heal and also helps create positive feelings about the Jewish community as a whole. So it&#039 ; s an integral part. So for example we--our funding has completely diversified. Our funding used to be primarily from the Jewish community. Now our funding is really primarily, uh, from grants, the government, you know, foundations. We still get money from the Jewish community. We do much more fundraising than was ever done. So the agencies have really changed. The agencies have become much more, uh, professionally based. Services have expanded beyond just let&#039 ; s say career advisement or counseling for families to include everything from, uh, case management and, uh, work with hard to place, uh, disadvantaged youths, uh, to very specialized senior services like home care and senior transportation. So we--we believe at JFCS that we have really expanded to meet the needs of the Jewish community, uh, as well as the whole community. And even though our mission stays very close, we&#039 ; re still very mission-based, and we don&#039 ; t--we&#039 ; re not going to start, you know, manufacturing widgets, uh, we have a wide array of services today that really focus on helping people learn the skills that they need to develop, to be--to solve problems, to learn better communication skills, and to be sustainable. Uh, we&#039 ; re very, very intent on helping people learn skills so that they can move forward with the goals that they set, rather than us just taking care of everything. And that really is an underpinning of a lot of our services. ELY: So you must partner a lot with other organizations in the community? FREUNDLICH TIELL: We do. We partner very closely with everybody from the Jewish Community of Louisville and the various synagogues in terms of providing services, in terms of providing, uh, scholarship, uh, uh, applications, in terms of reviewing those, in terms of, uh, providing consultation, you know, if there&#039 ; s, uh, a issue with a child, let&#039 ; s say at camp, to community--other services in the non-Jewish community. We have very close relationships with the refugee resettlement organizations, Catholic Charities, and Kentucky Refugee Ministries. We work very closely with YouthBuild of, uh, uh, in terms of working with their students and helping in terms of job placement. We, uh, h--we--we were--partner with lots of different organizations around different programs. ELY: So in--in your time with all these partnerships and working in the wider community have you, uh, felt any strains or issues around the fact that you&#039 ; re a Jewish identified organization? FREUNDLICH TIELL: We frequently get from people, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m not Jewish. Can I come to your service?&quot ; And that&#039 ; s a real common thing. We also have, uh, always have an issue. People think we&#039 ; re either the JCC or Jewish Hospital or somebody else. And, uh, you know, part of the wonderful thing about our organization is that we&#039 ; re a one-stop. People can come and get food, they can get counseling, they can get help with their aging parent, they can help--get help with a job all in one place. But that, uh, is--also makes it very hard for us to have a very clear identity in a thirty-second elevator speech. So, uh, we&#039 ; ve always fought against that. I think that we&#039 ; ve worked very hard and people really understand now that in--in reality the Jewish dollars that we receive are leveraged in huge amount by the non-Jewish dollars so that we are able to serve more Jews than we would ever be able to serve and in deeper ways than if we just served the Jewish community. So that--that--initially when I was involved that was always a struggle, helping people to understand that you could serve the entire community and yet still have a very strong Jewish identity. And we do. Uh, uh, we have Jewish art in our building. We have m--mezuzot. We do Jewish training. Uh, and in fact our non-Jewish staff find that our mission and the connection to the Jewish community is one of the strongest things that they identify with as--as, uh, staff in our agency. So, uh, that&#039 ; s really something that--that&#039 ; s, uh, uh, an important piece of who we are and we don&#039 ; t hide it. ELY: I--I think, uh, even your building has symbolism. FREUNDLICH TIELL: We do. The, uh, our building, uh, our building, uh, which we moved into--and I always forget. I think it was about 2000. Uh, was our first freestanding building. And, uh, Mark Isaacs was the architect. And Mark did a fabulous job for us. And the building was, uh, set up as if it were in villages and is also set up with--if you look in the front there&#039 ; s, uh, lights that are, uh, illuminated as if it was a hanukkiah. So each year at Hanukkah we light one of our lights and have a hanukkiah. Uh, the building also has much Jewish symbolism and--and--and has sort of a piece that reflects that, uh, that the Jewish community has, uh, sort of a place and a space here in Louisville. ELY: The location around Dutchmans Lane is--is a fairly suburban location. So I guess the agency moved along with a lot of the other organizations from downtown then out to the Highlands or greater Highlands area. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Well, we were a little bit different. And so the--the original, uh, Jewish Social Service Agency, uh, had space with the, uh, old Metro United Way Building which is now like the Courtyard of Louisville down there at the corner of I think Market and Main. And in fact when I first moved to Louisville in &#039 ; 79 we were still in that old United Way Building. Uh, Jewish Vocational Service was in, uh, a, uh, an office building, uh, I think the Marion E. Taylor Building, down in, uh, Louisville. Then when the two agencies merged they went into the old United Way Building and then in &#039 ; 79 when Shalom Tower opened we moved up on the second floor of Shalom Tower and shared the second floor space with the federation. So we sort of went from downtown right up into Shalom Tower. And then we quickly outgrew that space. But it wasn&#039 ; t until 2000 that we have our own building. And, uh, we had a large building campaign. Gail Pohn, who had been a past president of JFCS, led that campaign. Uh, and we were so honored that the Roth family decided to have the building, uh, and to take the lead in that campaign to name the building after their parents, Louis and, uh, Lee Roth. So the building itself is called the Louis &amp ; Lee Roth Family Center. And JFCS has, uh, has been in that building now since we moved in. ELY: Um-hm. I&#039 ; m getting at that because I&#039 ; m thinking about neighborhoods and how the community has--has geographically moved. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Absolutely. ELY: Through--through, uh, downtown to Old Louisville to the Highlands to further out. Well, let--let me go back a little bit to your personal story here. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Okay. ELY: You, uh, you--you met your husband, you got married. Uh, your family came here to Kentucky for the wedding? And, uh, they were okay with you being in Kentucky by then? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Absolutely. My parents, uh, got to really enjoy being in Louisville. They always said the people here were friendliest. They could go to Kroger and people would actually talk to them, which they always found very endearing. So, uh, they enjoyed that very much. And, uh, that worked out really well. And then Bob and I have two sons, uh, so Jeff was born in, uh, 1984 and Scott was born in 1988. Uh, Jeff lives in San Francisco right now and actually works for the Jim Joseph Foundation, which is, uh, a Jewish foundation that funds Jewish educational, uh, ideas. He ended up--both kids went through Jefferson County public schools. Jeff followed me to Brown and then ended up getting a master&#039 ; s in urban planning at Penn and has lived in San Francisco now for a while. And Scott, uh, went to Emory and then moved to DC and works as a--in a marketing strategy firm and just got married two weeks ago, uh, met his-- ELY: --mazel tov-- FREUNDLICH TIELL: --thank you. Yeah, it was great. And met his wife on JDate. And, uh, a success, uh, su--successful story and-- ELY: --um-hm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: --they got married, uh, by her rabbi. She grew up in a Conservative, uh, shul. And they got married in Annapolis, uh, two weeks ago. ELY: Mm. Very nice. So what neighborhood did you live in while your kids were growing up? FREUNDLICH TIELL: When I first moved to, uh, Louisville, lived in, uh, off--an apartment on Breckenridge Lane. ELY: Mm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: And then, uh, Bob and I bought our first house in Hikes Point. And we lived there. And then as many people do we decided to move further out east because of the school district. We wanted the school district, we wanted our kids to be able to go to Dunn and Ballard and, uh, so we moved out to, uh, Falls Creek, which is off of, uh, 42. And we have lived there since 1986, same house. ELY: Mm. And what synagogue temple do you go to? FREUNDLICH TIELL: We belong to Temple Shalom. ELY: Um-hm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: And, uh, Stan Miles, the rabbi, married us. And we--was very involved in our kids&#039 ; upbringing and, uh, was involved. Bob became Jewish. He was not born Jewish. And Stan, uh, did his conversion. And, uh, we&#039 ; ve been active members of Temple Shalom. ELY: Mm. Uh, Temple Shalom was started probably about the time you came here. FREUNDLICH TIELL: A little bit before. Right. ELY: Right. FREUNDLICH TIELL: When I first moved to town services were being held at Bellarmine. So I went to Bellarmine and actually Bob and my wedding was the first event in the house that Temple Shalom used as a synagogue prior to their building. ELY: So in the beginning it was, uh, really a group of families that were very close. And I--and that persists to this day, doesn&#039 ; t it? FREUNDLICH TIELL: It does to a certain extent. ELY: Um-hm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: I mean we--I grew up in a Conservative-leaning Reform congregation. But, uh, in terms of, uh, observance I would probably say I&#039 ; ve always been leaning more towards Reform. So that makes sense. I like sort of smaller congregations. And I--it just felt, uh, to be more of a place where we could be involved and-- ELY: --mm-- FREUNDLICH TIELL: --you know, we&#039 ; ve been very happy there. ELY: And your boys went through the Hebrew school, Sunday school. FREUNDLICH TIELL: They went through Sunday school and they went through Hebrew school. ELY: Um-hm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: At that particular time people from Temple Shalom did not have to go to Hebrew school. But we felt strongly that we wanted them to have as strong a Jewish education as they could. So they went to Hebrew school and they went to the High School of Jewish Studies. They were bar mitzvahed. They had--were confirmed. And, uh, both of them have done Birthright and I think both of them have a pretty strong Jewish identity. ELY: And you had the holidays in your home and with the community? FREUNDLICH TIELL: We did. We--various points we would go to New Jersey and celebrate when the kids were little. Or families would come here. And as with anyone who, uh, who doesn&#039 ; t have family in the same place where you live, you create good friends who become like family. So we had--we have very, very close friends who we would celebrate holidays with, who we would go to family Shabbat dinners and, you know, go to services with. And so that continued as the kids were growing up and continues now. ELY: So really you find Louisville conducive to Jewish life. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Uh, for us it was great. Uh, you know, there--there may not have been, you know, again we--we don&#039 ; t keep kosher. And I understand that that&#039 ; s a huge issue for many people. And, uh, but for us we&#039 ; ve been able to have, uh, a very, uh, uh, the kind of Jewish life that we would like. And our kids I felt like got a good background in being Jewish and had the opportunity to go to JCC camps and have, uh, you know, groups of friends. But we always stressed that, uh, you know, there&#039 ; s life beyond the Jewish community, so that, you know, we always made sure that--that our kids, you know, had opportunities to be in big cities and encouraged them to have friends of all sorts of kinds, not just to stay within the Jewish community. And they did. ELY: Are your parents still alive or are they--or they&#039 ; re-- FREUNDLICH TIELL: --no, my--my father died in--in 2001 and my mother actually died in October. ELY: Mm. But your kids had a chance to hear their stories too. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Th--th--my kids were very, very close with my parents and heard their stories and--and my mother again took our whole family and my sister and her family back to Europe to see and visit the two towns and show us directly where she and my dad were from. So they had that experience as well. My kids were very close--were very close with their, you know, paternal grandmother as well. They never knew their paternal grandfather. ELY: So, uh, as you&#039 ; ve been so involved with your professional work in the community have you also, uh, found time to serve on boards or take any other advisory roles or strategic committees with, uh, uh, m--there&#039 ; ve been many changes in the community in the last fifteen years or so. Have--have you been able to take a part in helping shape that? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Right. Well, I have been very very involved, uh, in the non-Jewish community in United Way. ELY: That was my next question. So go right ahead. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Right. So I&#039 ; m very very involved in United Way. Uh, I, uh, chaired the, uh, Council of Agency Execs, which is, uh, a group of execs. And through that I&#039 ; ve been on the steering committee of the United Way board, and continue to serve on the impact cabinet. So I feel like I&#039 ; ve had some impact on the social service and human service world in Louisville. Uh, in the Jewish community I&#039 ; ve been involved more nationally. So I&#039 ; ve been our national president of the International Association of Vocational Services, Jewish Vocational Services. And actually, uh, with one other colleague has sort of s--not sort of, we did. There are two national associations, the Association of Jewish Family and Children&#039 ; s Agencies, and the International Association of Jewish Vocational Services. And about five years ago, uh, we started the movement to bring those two organizations together into a new organization, which is now--and I--and I was the chair of that committee for a while. I&#039 ; m now on the steering committee. We have a new network called the Network of Jewish Human Service Professionals, which the name may be changing. But again it&#039 ; s an attempt to look at things in a much more holistic light nationally and internationally and I think is going to be a much stronger national advocacy and professional development group. So I&#039 ; m very, very involved with that on a national level. And, uh, I think that has impact on what we do here in Louisville. I&#039 ; ve served on committees in the Jewish community. Uh, you know, when my kids were little I was on the camp committee and I&#039 ; ve been involved in the education committee at--at Temple Shalom. But quite honestly at some level it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s hard to do that when you are a professional in the Jewish community because you&#039 ; re always seen in that role. ELY: Right. Uh, I&#039 ; m interested in the fact that your, uh, national experience seems to be taking the local experience of Louisville and then applying that on, uh, on a national stage, that because you were involved with all facets of what went on here in Louisville, you could see that as a national issue as well. Would you agree with that? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Well, to an extent. And again it wasn&#039 ; t just me. But there--there are lots of--lots of reasons moving towards that. But you r--that we really needed to sort of get it started. And--and my colleague in Atlanta and I sort of got the ball rolling. And then we created an opportunity for things to keep moving. And I have great colleagues nationally, I&#039 ; m very, uh, fortunate. I love the network that we&#039 ; re part of and I have great colleagues locally. Uh, we work very closely together. And that&#039 ; s always been a great sense of support and I do think that, uh, the nature of the human service world, whether it be Jewish or non-Jewish, is really constantly changing and needing to look at ways to be more nimble and to recognize the impact and who we serve and what we need to do in--in sort of more, uh, s--you know, strategic ways. ELY: Um-hm. Well, I have one question. In a way given everything you&#039 ; ve said it seems almost like it&#039 ; s kind of a crude question. But have you faced any anti-Semitism personally or professionally? Because you are so involved with the wider community. Do you have any thoughts about that? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Well, when I first moved to Louisville and I, uh, saw clients--and we always saw clients from all over--the story I--I love to tell, because it&#039 ; s so interesting, because it&#039 ; s so strange, is one day I had a client in my office, not Jewish. And, uh, they kept sort of looking at my head. ELY: (laughs) FREUNDLICH TIELL: And what they were looking for was my horns. Because according to them Jews had horns. And they couldn&#039 ; t believe that. And again I--I--rather than sort of being insulted, I took it as an opportunity to teach and--and again I think part of the reason that JFCS is so successful in the entire community is because people learn that--that, you know, Jews are no different than anybody else and that we, you know, we have the same issues and the same concerns. And so that, uh, that at one level was--was one form of sort of questioning. Uh, you know, we have had some people who s--you know, create questions about why, you know, why the Jews are doing this or doing that. You know, we serve a lot of Muslims because we serve a lot of refugees. And, uh, you know, we&#039 ; re--we--they--they love our service and they&#039 ; re very happy. And again we feel like it&#039 ; s a good opportunity to build bridges. But certainly there are some people who, uh, don&#039 ; t understand and have negative feelings about Jews without realizing that it&#039 ; s the Jewish Family Service that may be creating opportunities for them. So, uh, I can&#039 ; t say that growing up, uh, and having my kids grow up here that we faced a lot of direct anti-Semitism. I think more than anything it was, uh, that growing up in New Jersey where I did, it felt like everybody knew about being Jewish, and everybody had Jewish connections, whereas here you definitely feel like a minority. And so you do things in a different way. When our kids were little we made a much bigger deal of Hanukkah. You know, making decorations and, you know, creating foods, and bringing dreidel games to school. Because--because everybody didn&#039 ; t know and didn&#039 ; t understand and didn&#039 ; t want to feel overwhelmed. Uh, I think that&#039 ; s more of what we&#039 ; ve experienced, that you have to actively be Jewish, not necessarily anti-Semitism. ELY: So your kids&#039 ; experience growing up was in a lot of ways--contrasts with yours in that Judaism was the sea you swam in in New Jersey but here you--they stood out. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Right. Right. ELY: Were they comfortable with that, your boys? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Absolutely. You know, they--I think that they--they did very well with that. They had, you know, no trouble with it. Again I think they had pretty strong identities of who they are and who they were. But also an appreciation. You know, again having, uh, part of their family not be Jewish, uh, uh, you know, in terms of grandparents and aunts and uncles. We were always very, very clear that we&#039 ; re very respectful and that we can help people celebrate their holidays even if we don&#039 ; t choose to celebrate themselves. And so the message from us was always that, uh, that there&#039 ; s lots of ways to be good people and to have good experiences. And it, uh, it isn&#039 ; t a question of better or worse. It&#039 ; s a question of difference. ELY: Um-hm. Uh, in Louisville the word Jewish, the first association for most people is hospital. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Hospital. Right. ELY: Right. It becomes, uh, like a code word. Uh, you, uh, h--have you seen attitudes within the Jewish community change towards the non-Jewish community? Maybe less insular? Or perhaps more threatened by the arrival of--of immigrant groups? And that&#039 ; s a very general question. I&#039 ; m sure it&#039 ; s very specific for individuals. But how do you see that? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Generally I think first of all one of the things we&#039 ; ve seen in the Jewish community that has a major impact has been that the Jews in our Jewish community are much more accepted communitywide. We don&#039 ; t anymore have a Jewish school where--where, uh, I mean a public school where a lot of kids are Jewish. You know, kids are in every school. Uh, so--and Jews are accepted. So now whereas in the, you know, previous generation or two in order for--to have leadership roles Jews had leadership roles within the Jewish community, now many Jews have leadership roles at the Speed Art Museum or at the ballet or at other non-Jewish organizations because they&#039 ; re accepted as part of this community. That&#039 ; s great. But that then creates, uh, sort of issues within the Jewish community about how do we keep our leaders or at least keep them interested and involved. And I think that&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; re really all focused on. We have this major engagement process we&#039 ; re working on right now to really understand not just about engaging millennials and young adults, but how do we get back the people who are in their fifties and sixties who&#039 ; ve really sort of veered away from involvement in the Jewish community and, uh, you know, have real talents and skills that could be put to great use in our Jewish community. So I think again the fact that we&#039 ; re no longer a ghetto is great but, uh, it creates more opportunities for people to get involved. Uh, we see that all the time with charitable dollars, you know, the Jewish community, you know, supports the Jewish community, but supports a lot of communities. Uh, I think that there is some concern. Uh, you know, the Jewish community has changed politically. You know, you used to talk about the Jewish community as being pretty much liberal progressives. That&#039 ; s not, no longer the case, many are, and, you know, uh, you know, I joke that I&#039 ; m still a proud liberal progressive. But, uh, many of the--our board members, many people in the Jewish community are not. And so we have to sort of walk that walk as well in terms of, you know, obviously as, uh, an organization that receives government funding, we don&#039 ; t do any particular lobbying. But we certainly do advocacy for important things that we believe for our clients. I mean for example the Medicaid expansion in Kentucky has been critical for many of our clients and we are very concerned about that going away. And yet we have many people in our Jewish community who would disagree with me. So, uh, I think that&#039 ; s been a change in our Jewish community. Uh, and--and that&#039 ; s something that we look at. Uh, I think that there&#039 ; s been much more understanding in that t--mission of tikkun olam that the Jewish community can serve the Jewish community, but can also serve the greater Jewish community, and that ultimately benefits the Jewish community. And I think there&#039 ; s also an understanding--not by everyone by any means--but an understanding that--that we&#039 ; re all in this together and we need to work more closely together rather than trying to compete or have our own little--little area. And that--I think that&#039 ; s an ongoing sort of tension and issue. ELY: So the community engagement process involves whom at this point? FREUNDLICH TIELL: We--we were able, uh, to hire someone who is--who has spent this year doing a variety of things. Uh, researching best practices, talking with other Jewish communities, uh, meeting with hundreds of people, doing little focus groups, having a little task force with some strategy, uh, development and implementation, and doing some experimentation on new ways that we can engage people. And we&#039 ; ve--we&#039 ; ve had, uh, it&#039 ; s been really interesting. So we&#039 ; re learning a lot. And then from that we hope to develop some specific plans and programs. But I mean one example for ex--example is we&#039 ; ve always provided, uh, school supplies in conjunction with Temple Shalom for the--for Jewish children, uh, that come in through the agency. Uh, it&#039 ; s just been something we&#039 ; ve done. And this year some of our younger staff were talking about how they&#039 ; re all nostalgic about, uh, buying school supplies because they don&#039 ; t do that anymore. And wouldn&#039 ; t it be great if they could get a bunch of their friends to create a way to--to--to buy school supplies and we could expand what we do to all children who we serve? Well, through a Facebook process and whatever social media and doing all sorts of things, we serve--we went from serving about 35 kids to serving over 120. They created a school, uh, school supply shop that the families could actually come into and the kids could pick out their own color, uh, folders and notebooks and stuff. We had an event where, you know, we had y--we had about sixty young adults who wrote encouraging notes to kids and who had beer and wine and we had music, and it was a fun kind of thing, but it was all around doing a good deed and doing something positive. And engaged people we had never engaged, whether they be Jewish or non-Jewish. Now that may be a one-time issue, but we also need to then begin to look at how we create other opportunities like that, uh, because that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s going to get people fired up. What--what&#039 ; s in--what&#039 ; s interested for you but that has very direct application to us. ELY: Um-hm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Uh, so kids got things that they needed in a very, uh, respectful way. And people had fun doing it. ELY: And you it sounds like very explicitly call on Jewish values as part of that tikkun olam. FREUNDLICH TIELL: We do. We--absolutely. We have a list actually. We, uh, we do some staff training and some board training using, uh, a whole variety of Jewish values that underpin our work. Everything from tikkun olam to the idea of, uh, teshuvah and that people can ask for forgiveness and people can turn and make changes. You know, I think the Yom Kippur message is very critical with our--with JFCS. It&#039 ; s never too late. You can atone, you can make a change. You know, just because you&#039 ; ve done something in the past doesn&#039 ; t mean you&#039 ; re a horrible terrible person and how do you make those changes. We look at things like that life is more critical, so what do we do to create, uh, and--and sustain life in a very high quality way. Things like our home care program, things like our transportation program, giving seniors the dignity to make the choices they need if they have the support services with them. Uh, you know, again we look at the Maimonides&#039 ; s idea of--of charity and highest form of charity is where you don&#039 ; t know who you&#039 ; re providing charity to. And again people who make donations don&#039 ; t know where it&#039 ; s going. And--and yet directly helps individuals. And we look at the value of work. Work has always been a huge value, uh, within the Jewish community. And helping people to find work that&#039 ; s not only meaningful for them but that can help them be self-suffic--sufficient and self-sustaining is critical. So we do--we look at lot at Jewish values that underpin our work. And, uh, again even though we serve the entire community we--we&#039 ; re very strongly identified with Jewish values and our Jewish mission. ELY: And do you work in any, uh, interfaith context where you work perhaps with, uh, clergy and organizations at churches or mosques? FREUNDLICH TIELL: We have. We, you know, we work, uh, we lead the--the Jewish Community Relationships Council really creates more of those opportunities now. But by working with various refugees we do--we no longer do refugee resettlement but we work with refugees in career areas. We help them to find more, uh, sort of ongoing careers, especially for those who come with some kind of, uh, employment status. We, uh, help them start small businesses. We help them create, uh, bank accounts and savings so that they can, uh, buy houses and get further education. And through that we work very closely with Catholic Charities and Kentucky Refugee Ministries and through that the various religious organizations that they work with. ELY: And, uh, the city of Louisville is--has a planning process looking forward, uh, vision 2020, I-- FREUNDLICH TIELL: --right-- ELY: --uh, are you involved with that, uh-- FREUNDLICH TIELL: --we--we are. We have a lot of involvement with the various departments in--in Louisville government. Uh, we work with, uh, Louisville Forward around some of the economic development issues. We work with the, uh, human service organizations to focus in on social service needs. We, uh, are involved with, uh, s--we&#039 ; re, uh, many of us are involved in various committees that the city has, providing input and providing expertise that we give them. We&#039 ; re involved in lots of coalitions around everything from, uh, workforce development issues to, uh, uh, children who witness violence and--and children who are at risk for, uh, abuse and neglect. So there&#039 ; s a lot of areas in which we--we&#039 ; re involved with the city of Louisville. ELY: It--it seems like in a way you&#039 ; re in a position to know all of the pressure points in the community, the--the places where things aren&#039 ; t working and the places where they are. So just as kind of a general wrap-up kind of a question, uh, how do you personally and how does, uh, your agency, uh, what change do you want to see through your work in the community? If--if everything goes well thirty years, what does Louisville look like? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Well, I think that if everything goes well then the--we will continue to have strong Jewish leaders both professional and volunteer who are really committed to working with the Jewish community but also in concert with the general community. I think that&#039 ; s critical and that&#039 ; s part of this engagement process. We need to find ways to engage young adults and people who&#039 ; ve moved away from the community and do that. Uh, I&#039 ; m not one of those negative people who say, &quot ; Oh, we&#039 ; ve lost the hospital and we&#039 ; ve lost the, you know, the day school and we&#039 ; ve lost this and we&#039 ; ve lost that.&quot ; I think we still have very strong institutions and we have a--a network of services. If everything really would go well then every Jew would have enough money and--to have a--a decent housing situation and a decent--and decent food. We still serve over 140 people each month in our food pantry, many of them Jewish. There are people who say to me all the time, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t believe there are poor Jews.&quot ; There are poor Jews, many of them. You know, just this week I wrote, uh, I wrote out, uh, uh, uh, uh, signed a request for an emergency service rent check for a Jewish family. Uh, th--there are real needs within our Jewish community and I&#039 ; d love to see those needs gone so that we don&#039 ; t have to have a food pantry anymore. You know, I--I know that&#039 ; s probably not going to happen. I would like us to see less partisanship. Uh, I think, you know, there&#039 ; s a lot of partisanship nationally and locally. And I think that by looking at ways we can work together and partner--I think the more partnerships the better it&#039 ; s going to be. You know, that means we all have to give up a little something and that&#039 ; s really hard. But I think that&#039 ; s really critical. Uh, I think one of the things that I think j--j--at JFCS we&#039 ; ve prided ourself on is that we&#039 ; re pretty nimble and we&#039 ; re pretty willing to experiment and take some risks. And I think that we need to continue to do that. We need to continue to find the models that work best because what worked twenty years ago doesn&#039 ; t work now. Uh, I wish we had more funds. You know, unfortunately, you know, we are not able to provide the kind of salaries I&#039 ; d like for our staff. And we&#039 ; re really working on that. Uh, you know, I worry about the next generation and their retirement opportunities. Uh, that&#039 ; s going to be huge from personnel pieces. We&#039 ; ve really t--started, uh, very strategically investing in some of the talent in our organization so we can create the skills that are going to be needed for the next generation. All that is really really important. Uh, I think that the community as a whole is really struggling with an identity issue because for so long we&#039 ; ve been seen as this, uh, community that, uh, many people were--had very successful lives, you know, but didn&#039 ; t need a lot of education and had jobs that, you know, were what were considered more blue-collar. Those are gone forever. So we have to figure out how we can retrain people and get people into good places. Uh, we need to break some of the--the generational issues of poverty and figure out, you know, how we can be less stratified as a city. Uh, there&#039 ; s--there are certainly a lot of issues and--and I don&#039 ; t have all the answers by any means. But I think that, you know, we--certainly we try to look at those things as we--as we think strategically about the areas we need to be in and invest in. Uh, I--I mean I have a lot of hope for this Jewish community. I think there--I think there&#039 ; s a lot of great people involved. I think there&#039 ; s a--I think it&#039 ; s a wonderful place and--and, uh, young adults frequently, even if they leave, they do come back, though unfortunately I don&#039 ; t think either of our sons will return. ELY: Too bad. FREUNDLICH TIELL: I know. But I do think there&#039 ; s a lot of opportunity here and a lot of energy to create a Jewish community that--that can, you know, do a lot for a lot of different people. ELY: Well, that&#039 ; s great. Is there anything I haven&#039 ; t asked? Or any great stories you&#039 ; re dying to tell? Or, uh, epiphanies you&#039 ; ve had? Uh, anything else you&#039 ; d like to put on the record here? FREUNDLICH TIELL: I--I have, uh, truly been blessed in a lot of ways to come here totally sort of on a--on a, you know, s--s--kind of, uh, with no real thought about what that meant and to be able to spend my professional and personal life here. And that&#039 ; s meant a lot to me. So I&#039 ; m glad that I&#039 ; ve been able to impact the community in whatever way I&#039 ; ve been able to do and that the community has impacted on me. I think, uh, it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s really been, you know, it&#039 ; s been a great ride. ELY: Changed your east coast focus about what Judaism is? FREUNDLICH TIELL: Changed my east coast--yeah, changed my east coast focus. ELY: Um-hm. FREUNDLICH TIELL: I mean I love to travel and I love to visit. But no regrets about being here and, uh, and our plan is that we&#039 ; ll stay here as--when we retire, you know, though certainly probably travel more. ELY: Alright, well, thank you very much. FREUNDLICH TIELL: Okay. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh401_jk036_tiell_ohm.xml 2016oh401_jk036_tiell_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh401_jk036_tiell_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Judy Freundlich Tiell, September 14, 2016 Description An account of the resource Judy Tiell discusses her family history and the early influences on her Jewish identity. She talks about her education and career as a social worker. She talks about how she came to Louisville to work for the Jewish Social Service Agency (now called Jewish Family and Career Service Program). She discusses their work both in the Jewish community and the Louisville community at large, and talks about the types of difficulties they face. She talks about her own family and the role of Judaism in their lives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh401_jk036 Subject The topic of the resource Families. Religion Jews--Identity. Louisville (Ky.) Social service. Social workers. Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video https://www.nunncenter.net/jewishkentucky/files/original/05d1763ea1359d97258e2c0fdd0a5195.jpeg 8d96f5ed666e8d96a1951eb2db34e43b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Carol Ely Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louis Waterman Interview Keyword Jewish Community Center (JCC) Jewish Hospital Standard Club Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Immigrants--Kentucky Catholicism Marriage Catholics--Kentucky OHMS Object Text 5.2 2016oh400_jk035 Interview with Louis Waterman, September 14, 2016 2016oh400_jk035 jk Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries (Exhibit) Genealogy Holidays--Kentucky Families. Religion Education Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Louisville (Ky.) Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Louisville (Ky.)--Social life and customs College environment College students--Social conditions University of Kentucky College students--Religious life Lawyers--Kentucky--Louisville Hospitals--Administration Hospitals--Kentucky Jewish businesspeople Jewish Community Center (JCC) Jewish Hospital Standard Club Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Immigrants--Kentucky Catholicism Marriage Catholics--Kentucky Louis Waterman Carol Ely 1:|22(12)|44(2)|65(4)|101(3)|151(1)|184(8)|196(4)|226(4)|244(13)|262(15)|292(1)|310(14)|340(10)|360(4)|388(17)|419(2)|454(5)|471(11)|487(3)|511(9)|539(3)|566(15)|594(8)|613(15)|648(16)|661(6)|684(4)|717(15)|729(13)|752(9)|766(1)|793(10)|806(10)|826(9)|838(9)|860(15)|878(4)|911(1)|935(1)|948(16)|969(2)|994(2)|1007(12)|1035(5)|1052(11)|1077(14)|1090(12)|1104(4)|1117(10)|1131(6)|1150(1)|1164(2)|1191(15)|1215(11)|1234(1)|1247(4)|1262(13)|1276(15)|1290(3)|1308(3)|1325(5)|1344(3)|1363(6)|1380(13)|1415(3)|1427(10)|1450(15) 0 Vimeo video &lt ; iframe allowFullScreen frameborder=&quot ; 0&quot ; height=&quot ; 564&quot ; mozallowfullscreen src=&quot ; https://player.vimeo.com/video/253331726&quot ; webkitAllowFullScreen width=&quot ; 640&quot ; &gt ; &lt ; /iframe&gt ; 2 Family history and background It's September 14th, 2016. Waterman describes his parents and their occupations. His father David is a realtor and lawyer, and his mother Marjorie Bloom is an author. He also gives a general overview of his family legacy and his family's involvement with Jewish Hospital. Adath Israel (Louisville, synagogue) ; Adath Jeshurun Synagogue (Louisville) ; Authors ; Berlin (Germany) ; Conservative Judaism ; David Waterman ; Department stores ; Diamond businesses ; Dry goods ; Greenville (Miss.) ; Irwin Bloom ; Lawyers ; Marjorie Bloom ; Meat businesses ; My Life In Jail ; Parents ; Poland ; Realtors ; ResCare ; Teachers Emigration and immigration. ; Employment--Kentucky ; Families. ; Genealogy ; Immigrants--Kentucky ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.kentuckyonehealth.org/jewish-hospital This link is for Jewish Hospital in Louisville, with which Waterman has had great involvement. In this segment, Waterman references Irwin Bloom, who was involved with Jewish Hospital. 337 Childhood and family life in 1970s Louisville, Kentucky So growing up, what kinds of, uh, Jewish things did you do in your home? As a child, Waterman celebrated both Jewish and Christian holidays, such as Chrsitmas and Rosh Hashanah. He did not keep kosher, yet his home was very Jewish-oriented and was full of Jewish-themed decor. Waterman also gives details on his siblings and parents. His siblings are Julie, Michael, and a younger sister whose name he does not mention. Christmas ; Conservative Judaism ; Divorces ; Gift exchanges ; Hanukkah ; High holidays (Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) ; Jefferson County Public Schools ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Jewish holidays ; Jewish Hospital ; Julie Waterman ; KentuckyOne ; Michael Waterman ; Siblings ; Stars of David ; Union Camp Institute Families. ; Holidays--Kentucky ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.295, -85.640 17 Glenview Hills, where Waterman lived from sixth grade up until college. He describes it as the east end of the Ballard area. 619 Jewish community and schools in 1970s Louisville And by that time, there really was not a sense of Jewish neighborhood anymore in Louisville. Or would you disagree? Waterman details the locations of the Jewish community in Louisville and his experiences in school. He describes his thoughts on the complicated busing situation in Louisville and his thoughts on Ballard and Central High School. Waterman also gives details on the way bar mitzvahs were conducted in his childhood. Adath Israel (Louisville, synagogue) ; Atherton High School ; Ballard High School ; Bar mitzvahs ; Busing ; Central High School ; Hebrew ; Race relations ; Soccer ; Sunday school ; Sutherland Education ; Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.283, -85.625 17 Ballard High School in Louisville, Kentucky 998 Jewish community involvement in 1970s Louisville Tell me a little bit more about your, your father and his involvement with the community. Waterman describes his parents and their involvement with the Louisville Jewish community. He details his parents' realistic expectations for him and how he gives back to the community. He says his father David was not very involved with the community, but his mother Marjorie was involved with the National Council of Jewish Women and took in a Vietnam refugee. She was also in school for her Master's degree at University of Louisville. Apartment association ; David Waterman ; Divorce ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Kent School of Social Work ; Liberal ; Marjorie Bloom ; National Council of Jewish Women ; Sigma Alpha Mu ; Standard Club ; University of Louisville ; Vietnam refugees Education ; Families. ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.ncjw.org/ This link is for the National Council of Jewish Women, which Waterman's mother Marjorie was involved in. 1204 Formative experiences, 1970s Yeah, you mentioned Standard. I hadn't really thought about that... Waterman illustrates his social experiences with the Standard Club, a Jewish country club, and with the Jewish Community Center. Waterman played with his friends at these clubs, doing things such as tennis, golf, or fishing. Once Waterman went to the JCC, he describes his difficulties getting there and how that impacted him socially. He also describes what cotillion was, that it was held at St. Matthew's Women's Club, and how it impacted him socially. Cotillion ; Dating ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Ogden ; Social events ; St. Matthew's Women's Club ; Standard Club Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Kentucky, Northern--Social life and customs ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Louisville (Ky.)--Social life and customs 38.293, -85.599 17 Standard Country Club, Brownsboro Road, Louisville Kentucky 1464 College life at UK, 1979-1983 Uh, so then, um, what was your decision making process about college? Where did you go? Waterman describes his college experiences, 1979-1983 ; how he was recruited by Indiana University, how he went to George Washington, and then transferred to University of Kentucky. He details his life with Sigma Chi at UK and his lack of involvement in Jewish activities on campus. Waterman was not involved with Hillel. Bobby Glick ; Campus life ; Fasting ; George Washington University ; Indiana University ; National Mall ; Orthodox synagogues ; Richard Schultz ; Sigma Chi ; Soccer College environment ; College students--Conduct of life. ; College students--Religious life ; College students--Social conditions ; Jews--Identity. ; Lexington (Ky.). ; Universities and colleges. ; University of Kentucky 38.034, -84.502 17 Sigma Chi fraternity, University of Kentucky 1886 Career in law, 1980s So at some point you decided on a career in law? Waterman details his career in law in the 1980s, his mentors Fred Goldberg and David Brill, and how he became involved in divorce cases and family law. Waterman also explains some of the stereotypes, positive and negative, he has experienced as a lawyer. American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers ; Anti-Semitism ; David Brill ; Fred Goldberg ; Goldberg and Simpson ; Law school ; Lawyers ; Rebecca Westerfield ; Stereotypes ; Trinity murders ; University of Louisville Employment--Kentucky ; Lawyers--Kentucky--Louisville ; Marriage 38.321, -85.568 17 Goldberg Simpson, the law firm Waterman practiced at. 2231 Familial relationships, 1990s Well, to turn to the, the personal again, how did you meet your wife? Waterman gives details on his marriage and his children and the role that religion played in his family. He focuses on the impact that his Judaism and his wife's Catholicism had on the family, specifically for holidays. Waterman also started an interfaith group for Christian and Jewish families. Brown Forman ; Children ; Christmas ; Divorce ; Interfaith ; Jewish holidays ; Judaism ; Law schools ; Mary Waterman ; Mixed marriages ; Purim ; Rabbi Diamond Catholicism ; Catholics--Kentucky ; Families. ; Holidays--Kentucky ; Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Identity. ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) ; Marriage ; Religion 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) http://www.reformjudaism.org/jewish-holidays/purim This small article describes what Purim is. 2602 Career with Jewish Hospital, 2000s-2010s Let's switch a little bit and talk about Jewish Hospital. Waterman details his experiences governing Jewish Hospital and his struggles running various aspects of the business behind Jewish Hospital. He gives a recollection of his experiences on the board of directors for the Jewish Hospital in the 2000s. Jewish Hospital was struggling economically, which resulted in merger talks with other hospitals. Abortion ; David Laird ; Fred Goldberg ; Jeff Polson ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Jewish Hospital ; Jewish Hospital Association Board of Directors ; Jewish Hospital Foundation ; KentuckyOne ; Klein ; Mergers ; Norton Hospital ; Richard Schultz ; St. Mary's Elizabeth Hospital ; University of Kentucky ; University of Louisville Hospitals--Administration ; Hospitals--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.249, -85.753 17 Jewish Hospital in Louisville, Kentucky 3114 Career with Jewish Heritage Fund, 2010s Now, the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence spun off of this merger, uh, with millions of dollars of-- Waterman transitions into talking about the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence and how he decided to contribute the fund money into the Jewish community. He talked to many people to help him figure out how to best contribute the money, including UK president Eli Capilouto. Much of the money went into Jewish Hospital and other Jewish organizations. David Kaplan ; David Klein ; Eli Capilouto ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Jewish Hospital ; Jewish Hospital Foundation ; KentuckyOne ; Scholarships Hospitals--Administration ; Hospitals--Kentucky ; Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225333, -85.741667 17 Louisville (Ky.) https://jewishheritagefund.com/ This link is the website for the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. 3596 Decisions on the Standard Country Club Of course the other big one was acquiring the Standard Country Club. Waterman reflects on his actions regarding the Standard Country Club's financial situation and what to do with it. He focuses on the divisions in the Jewish community and how they have impacted his decisions. Waterman expresses annoyance at the Jewish community in general for how Jewish entities don't get along with each other. Adath Jeshurun ; Jewish communities ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Pew study ; Standard Club Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.228, -85.687 17 Adath Jeshurun, Louisville Kentucky http://www.standardclub.net/welcome This is the website for the Standard Country Club in Louisville. 3867 Life accomplishments --to go to a more positive note, what are you really proud of that you've been able to accomplish? Waterman reflects on his life accomplishments and what he is proud of. He emphasizes his hopes for future generations, which include greater unity in the Jewish community. Waterman finishes the interview by summarizing his life experiences. Clubs ; Community ; Interfaith marriage ; Jewish Community Center (JCC) ; Jewish Federation ; Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence ; Jewish Hospital Jewish businesspeople ; Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville ; Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. ; Louisville (Ky.) 38.225, -85.652 17 Jewish Community Center, Louisville, Kentucky interview Louis Waterman describes his childhood in Louisville, including his parents and siblings, his education, and his Judaism both in his social life and religious practices. He talks about his college experiences, law school, and his career as a lawyer. He talks about his administrative work for Jewish Hospital in Louisville, his work with the Jewish Heritage Fund, and his actions regarding the Standard Country Club's financial situation. ELY: It&#039 ; s September 14th, 2016. I&#039 ; m Carol Ely. And I&#039 ; m here with Louis Waterman for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, sponsored by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. So thank you for coming down and joining us today. WATERMAN: Thank you for doing this! ELY: It&#039 ; s, uh, nice to have you here. And this&#039 ; ll be a combination of kind of personal, professional, community questions. And, uh, we&#039 ; re gonna do it somewhat chronologically, so we&#039 ; ll start at the very beginning with you. And just tell me when and where you were born. WATERMAN: I was born here in Louisville, on May 15th, 1961, at the old Baptist Hospital. ELY: Ah, not at Jewish. WATERMAN: No. (laughs) They didn&#039 ; t do babies back then. ELY: Ah. And, uh, who were your parents? What were their names and occupations? WATERMAN: My father is David Waterman. I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m very fortunate. Both are still alive. My father is David Waterman. Um, he is a realtor by trade, also a lawyer by education and license. My mother is Marjorie Bloom Waterman, and she was sort of a jack-of-all-trades. She, uh, worked for ResCare for a long time, in Miami, running the Job Corps center in Little Havana, and then retired from that and became an English teacher, in prison, and is now a, a struggling author, trying to write. ELY: What is she writing? WATERMAN: She is writing a book called My Life In Jail. And she&#039 ; s writing her, uh, a book about her time where she&#039 ; s taught English and life skills in prison. ELY: And are your parents both from Louisville? WATERMAN: They are, originally. Yeah, both are from Louisville. ELY: They are. WATERMAN: My family&#039 ; s--Dad&#039 ; s family originated--came in through, uh, from Brody, Poland, into New York and immediately moved to Terre Haute, Indiana. My great-great grandfather on Dad&#039 ; s side is buried there. My, uh--his family then split at his death. Half came to Louisville and half went to Greenville, Mississippi. ELY: Oh. WATERMAN: Both went into the dry-good business. My mother&#039 ; s side--and that was about World--at the end of--between World War I and World War II--Mom&#039 ; s family, the Blooms, came in from Germany, from Berlin. They were in the diamond business. They came again through New York into Louisville, got into the diamond business, got out of the diamond business, and went into the meat business. Um, and stayed here and have been here since. They&#039 ; re one of the founding memol--members of the synagogue Adath Israel. ELY: Um-hm. So the Waterman family--Poland? From Poland? You said they had a, I believe, a department store-- WATERMAN: --they did-- ELY: --on Preston? WATERMAN: They had a department store on Preston, where the hospital, where the hospital exchange now sits. Uh, it was Waterman&#039 ; s Department Store. My grandfather had it. Uh, he unfortunately had a heart attack at what we consider to be a young age now--at least I do now--at fifty-five and had to quit working. Uh, and then sold it to family members. They ran it, they ran it, then subsequently, after they got it through the recession, it, it just sort of faded away. Uh, and he went into the real estate business. ELY: Do you remember the story yourself or is-- WATERMAN: --no, I wasn&#039 ; t-- ELY: --no-- WATERMAN: --alive-- ELY: --it&#039 ; s before your time? WATERMAN: Both my grandparents were, uh--Louis Waterman, for who--Louis Waterman, for whom I&#039 ; m named, passed away before I was born, and Irwin--he was known as Brudge--Bloom passed away before I was born as well. So I don&#039 ; t have any memory of either grand--either grandfather. ELY: Um-hm. And then the Blooms, is that B-L-O-O-M, or-- WATERMAN: --it is-- ELY: --u-m? There are prominent Blooms in Louisville. Is that the family? WATERMAN: They are part of &#039 ; em. ELY: Okay. WATERMAN: Um, they owned the Jefferson Meat Market. And then Dr. Irwin Bloom--my middle name is Irwin-- ELY: --um-hm-- WATERMAN: --my mother&#039 ; s maiden name is Bloom--was one of the original, uh, people you see on the picture of the Jewish Hospital groundbreaking. Uh, that is a gr--best we can tell a great-great-great relative of some sort. ELY: Okay. WATERMAN: So that&#039 ; s about-- ELY: --that&#039 ; s I-N Bloom, I think is-- WATERMAN: --I think that&#039 ; s correct-- ELY: --right. WATERMAN: But it&#039 ; s Irwin Bloom is--it&#039 ; s Irwin--Dr. something Irwin Bloom. ELY: Um-hm. So they&#039 ; ve been associated with Jewish Hospital-- WATERMAN: --correct-- ELY: --since there was a Jewish Hospital, essentially. WATERMAN: Yeah, it&#039 ; s interesting, because the--that was the only connection we can find to the Bloom family. And then my--on--then it flipped over to the Waterman side. My uncle David Waterman was on the board for years. My uncle Norton Waterman was chief of surgery for years, and then I subsequently was on the board and became chairman of the board of Jewish Hospital during the merger. ELY: Right. We&#039 ; ll talk some-- WATERMAN: --um-- ELY: --more about that-- WATERMAN: --so we have-- ELY: --later. WATERMAN: --yes, the--well, it started with the Blooms. We have a--my family has a long (laughs) legacy of ownership of Jewish Hospital-- ELY: --right-- WATERMAN: --and, and, uh--in our hearts. ELY: And, uh, do you know what, um, congregations your ancestors were part of-- WATERMAN: --I do-- ELY: --the Watermans and the Blooms? WATERMAN: The, the Blooms have always been part of Adath Israel. They were the founding--one of the founding ten or fifteen families of Adath Israel. And my father&#039 ; s family, the Watermans were, were much more Conservative, almost Orthodox, and were always members of Adath Jeshurun. ELY: So it was sort of a mixed marriage --(laughs)--in a sense. WATERMAN: Correct. ELY: Were-- WATERMAN: --they were-- ELY: --were there discussions about that in your family, growing up? WATERMAN: No. Uh, Dad--when--Dad was raised almost an Orthodox, keeping kosher, and my grandmother of blessed memory, all the way to her death, was, was very Conservative if not Orthodox, and Dad just didn&#039 ; t want to do that. He wanted to be more Reform and liked the Reform movement. ELY: Um-hm. So growing up, what kinds of, uh, Jewish things did you do in your home? Did you observe holidays, did--you--it doesn&#039 ; t sound like you kept kosher, but-- WATERMAN: No, we didn&#039 ; t. ELY: Oh. WATERMAN: But we did do all that. ELY: Um-hm. WATERMAN: It was interesting. I remember, as a child, celebrating Christmas in two ways. I remember in our home it was Santa Claus. No trees, no anything, it was just Santa Claus. And at some age that stopped and became only Hanukkah. My great-grandmother on the Bloom side, my mother&#039 ; s grandmother, insisted on celebrating Christmas. She&#039 ; d come from Germany. They had a tree. She insisted on a full dinner with gifts to be exchanged. Uh, it was really interesting, &#039 ; cause growing up, I was raised in Judaism. We--Sunday school, we did all the holidays. Uh, Hanukkah, Passover, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, um--the, the--when I would say the holidays, the, the major holidays. Um, we, um--there were Jewish--there was a lot of Jew--I remember a lot of Jewish books around our home. I remember, um, arti--what I would say, uh, items of personal property, Stars of David, we had mezuzahs on the door, those sort of things. There was no question but that we were Jewish, and it was sort of an odd piece in my mother&#039 ; s family that there was always this Christmas dinner. And several members of Mom&#039 ; s family remained Conservative, and they still were required to come, and nobody was gonna cross my great-grandmother, Grab (??) , so they all did that anyway. ELY: Hmm. Did you have brothers and sisters? WATERMAN: I do. I have--I&#039 ; m the oldest of four. My--the next one down, my d--my sister Julie, she was a teacher and just retired this year, from Jefferson County Public Schools. She was a schoolteacher for years, for twenty-some-odd years. My--the next one down is Michael, who is now employed by KentuckyOne and works at Jewish Hospital. He is an engineer--I call it an efficiency engineer. (Ely sighs) He calls it an industrial engineer. But he works for KentuckyOne and the entire hospital chain, doing that. We have some funny stories when I was chairman of the board on that one, um, with my-- ELY: --all right-- WATERMAN: --brother running-- ELY: --well-- WATERMAN: --around the place-- ELY: --remind me to ask you about -- WATERMAN: --um-- ELY: -- funny stories. WATERMAN: The--and then my baby sister is married to a rabbi and--who she met at, at what is now GUCI [Goldman Union Camp Institute] Camp, which those days was Union Camp Institute in Zionsville. And they have four kids, and they live in Detroit. She runs--in ad--in addition to being the rebbetzin, she, um, runs a business representing Audi and VW in, I guess I would call it public relations type stuff in the area. ELY: So, uh, are there any other, um, family stories or traditions? The Christmas story is very interesting. Is there anything else you can think of from, uh, the previous generations of your family-- WATERMAN: --Yeah, I don&#039 ; t-- ELY: --that&#039 ; s notable? WATERMAN: --I don&#039 ; t remember that. I know my grandmother on my dad&#039 ; s side, we always had, uh--after Sunday school we would pick her up and have lunch at the house. Uh, Mom and Dad got divorced when I was thirteen, uh--although Dad was very good about making sure we stayed in contact, and I&#039 ; m still in contact with both sides of the family. Um, all four of us lived with Dad, which was pretty unusual back in 1974. Um, and so, uh, I remember that, the--my--the other thing I do remember, because I was named after my grandfather, who was my grandmother&#039 ; s husband, I got treated better than--(both laugh)--all the other grandchildren. If, if there was a big present for Hanukkah or a birthday, like a bike, she insisted on getting it for me. I--she was regularly giving out money. She would give out dollar bills or five dollars--I always got more. Um, it wasn&#039 ; t very fair, but she just always made--and she made sure I knew I got more because I was Louis Waterman, and they weren&#039 ; t. (laughs) ELY: Okay. (laughs) WATERMAN: That was my grandmother&#039 ; s way. ELY: And what neighborhood did you grow up in? Where did you live? WATERMAN: I grew up--I was, I was born ov--right next to the JCC, on Abigail Drive. I don&#039 ; t remember that. We lived in an apartment there. And then Mom and Dad moved sometime in--before 1963--over to Dunbarton Wynde. So I grew up in what was Hayfield Dundee Estates. And then when I was in fifth grade, we moved to--so right around eleven or twelve we moved to, uh, Glenview Hills and built a home there and lived out there. So I lived i--from sixth grade on, out in what I would call the East End of the Ballard area. ELY: Right. And by that time, there really was not a sense of Jewish neighborhood anymore in Louisville. Or would you disagree? WATERMAN: Oh, I disagree. ELY: Okay. WATERMAN: I, I would tell you that, that I was living in a very Jewish neighborhood. All my friends, the v--the vast majority up and down Dunbarton, Newburg Road, Sutherland, um, Tartan Way, all up--it was all around Atherton High School was very-- ELY: --um-hm-- WATERMAN: -- I mean, we teased about calling it Little Israel. ELY: Mmm. WATERMAN: Now, what happened is we--unfortunately, we were one of the first to move. But where I moved to became Little Israel. And--I mean, everybody just moved out to that area. ELY: It&#039 ; s near the temple, right? WATERMAN: Now it&#039 ; s--right. We were in walking--less than a mile from the temple, um, today, and that&#039 ; s still--i--now everybody seems to have moved east. I live in Sutherland neighborhood, and we have an enormous number of Jewish families in that neighborhood now. ELY: Interesting. WATERMAN: So yeah, I would still tell you that we have a high density of Jewish populations every place I lived. J--the just--when we moved to Glenview Hills, off Lime Kiln--and obviously the temple wasn&#039 ; t there, uh, it, it--we were the first of the group to move that way, and so it was--my friends were still back over by the JCC at--for that period of time. (sniffs) ELY: And where did you go to school? WATERMAN: I went to Belknap Elementary. Then I went to Wilder for a year. Then they opened Dunn Elementary, and I did one year at Dunn. And th--in those days, for middle school you went to--you went to either Kammerer Middle School or Ballard High School for your middle school, which was seventh and eighth grades, and I ended up at Ballard for seventh and eighth. Uh, went straight to high school at Ballard, got bussed to Central High School in tenth--had a great year, because what happened was all the guys from Atherton were being--that I grew up with--were being bussed to Central at the same time. So we all got--ended up back together to wreak havoc on poor Principal McPherson, uh, for a year down there. And then for eleventh and twelfth, back to Ballard. ELY: So Central was largely African American at that point? WATERMAN: Noooo. It was-- ELY: --no?-- WATERMAN: --at that point, that was the second year of bussing-- ELY: --okay-- WATERMAN: --and it was largely white, because most of the African American puni--community--was being bussed out, and we were all being bussed in. ELY: I see. So what was your experience of bussing? Was it just routine for you, or-- WATERMAN: --I-- ELY: --were there conflicts? WATERMAN: --it didn&#039 ; t bother me at all. We had a great time. But again, I had an opportunity--I had started playing soccer in my earlier years, about 13, and so what happened, because it was a relatively new sport to Louisville, the players were from all over. And so--and, and again, I&#039 ; d grown up with all these guys over by Atherton, and some by Eastern, and we all got all bussed in to--in to Central. So we had--it was like a giant homecoming. It was phenomenal! We had a great time. We nev--I don&#039 ; t remember ever being afraid. I--and we walked around down there, there was a McDonald&#039 ; s and a Red Barn--which we were forbidden to go to, which of course the first thing we did was go there--um, just &#039 ; cause we&#039 ; re not supposed to walk off the campus. I mean, we thought it was unbelievable. We had our own swimming pool. You know, we&#039 ; d never been in a high school that had a swimming pool. Um, so we had a great experience. I mean, I, I really enjoyed (laughs) my year at Central. I had a great time. And we had a very good soccer team, which helped. ELY: So at the same time you were having, um, Jewish education-- WATERMAN: --um-hm-- ELY: --Hebrew school, Sunday school? WATERMAN: Did--we went to Sunday school. There was no Hebrew high school like there is now, um--which I subsequently taught in. But the, um--yeah, we went to Sunday school, bar mitzvah, uh, Mrs. Naimoni (??), who was Dr. Naimoni&#039 ; s wife, uh--because we were Reform, we weren&#039 ; t learning--I wasn&#039 ; t going to Hebrew school-- ELY: --um-hm-- WATERMAN: --regularly. So-- ELY: --so you went to the temple-- WATERMAN: --I went-- ELY: --yup-- WATERMAN: --well, I went--yeah, I was going down to Third Street-- ELY: --right. Okay-- WATERMAN: --for Sunday school, and you had to be schooled in Hebrew, and so Miss Naimoni--there was a group of us that had bar mitzvahs all around the same time, and she started a year and a half out teaching us Hebrew. And I, I have a recollection that failed miserably, so she resulted--she resorted to just having us memorize our Torah portions, um, uh, and I&#039 ; m sure--she is still alive, that I know of, and she is a saint for having put up with all of us. ELY: So what was a bar mitzvah like then? Was it the huge party it&#039 ; s become? WATERMAN: No. It, it, it was--it was somewhat the same, but the parties weren&#039 ; t nearly as large. I remember we had a party, uh, and I was inv--allowed to invite sort of my bar mitzvah class to come, and Mom and Dad had a bigger group. We were all out back or in the front yard. It hap--I--it was in May, so we were all outside. I don&#039 ; t remember much of the food or anything like that. I remember I got my first, uh--I had a suit made that I still have a picture of somewhere, and it&#039 ; s a plaid gray, blue, and red suit, with a, a, a crushed velvet blue ti--bow tie. And in those days the platform shoes, much like the women wear today, with the platform on the bottom, I had a set of those. And I had long hair at the time, so, um, I was-- ELY: --I think that-- WATERMAN: -- quite the look. ELY: --photo should-- WATERMAN: My children-- ELY: --be in the archives. WATERMAN: Oh, it should be somewhere. My children each have a copy, &#039 ; cause when they found it, they thought that was the most amazing thing they could ever see. ELY: Um-hm. WATERMAN: So--but that&#039 ; s--that was what we did. ELY: Right. And did you invite your Jewish and non-Jewish friends? WATERMAN: Oh, yes. And it was interesting, because when I moved to Ballard, as I moved over and moved to Ballard, the va--I moved from a place where almost--a bunch of my friends were Jewish to they weren&#039 ; t. Cause again, it was sort of trailing me--we, for whatever reason, were from the first families to move into that area. So the vast majority of my friends at school at that point were not Jewish. ELY: And, uh, Adath Israel was downtown, then-- WATERMAN: --on Third Street-- ELY: --on Third Street? WATERMAN: Um-hm. ELY: And-- WATERMAN: --next to the library-- ELY: --must have moved out where you were at some point-- WATERMAN: --it did, and-- ELY: --in your growing up-- WATERMAN: --I don&#039 ; t remember when, but I remember moving--I was--I can tell you, I was done with my, um, my Jewish, formal Jewish education at that point. Now, I continued in Sunday school till confirmation, so to--through tenth grade. ELY: Um-hm. WATERMAN: But I was always downtown. ELY: Mmm. So, um, tell me a little bit more about your, your father and his involvement with the community. WATERMAN: You know, it&#039 ; s interesting. Dad, Dad was not very involved in the community. Um, people will tell me I&#039 ; m overly involved. Dad always instilled in all of us that we had some obligation to give back. Um, the--but Dad--I can remember Dad got very involved in the apartment association, because he was--his real estate business was managing apartments, and in fact, formed it--he created it--he&#039 ; s the original president of, uh, Louisville, or Kentucky, Apartment Association. And he also got very active in Sigma Alpha Mu, when it was here at the University of Louisville. So--and I know he was the alumni president, and he was active at the national level at some point. He was not president. But I just--I&#039 ; ve seen the plaques on the walls and the things, and I know we used to have these fraternity guys coming over to the house all the time. And I knew he was a Sammy because we had paddles and those sort of things from the, from the fraternity house. Dad was--but Dad wasn&#039 ; t overly active in the community. That just wasn&#039 ; t his shtick. Mom was much more so. ELY: That was my next question, yeah. WATERMAN: Right. Mom was very active. Mom, uh--Mom and Dad got married young. Mom did not finish her college education, so in my younger years, Mom was always in school. If you got sick at school or something happened, you called Dad, &#039 ; cause Mom was at U of L, getting her undergraduate degree at the Kent School of Social Work and her master&#039 ; s degree. The, um--and she was active in everything you can think of, as long as it was liberal. Um, she in fact, at--for a period of time, right before the divorce, she moved to--somewhere in Arkansas, where we were bringing in--we as a country were bringing in Vietnam refugees and processing them and getting &#039 ; em out throughout the country after, uh, Vietnam fell. And ended up, she, she was gone for three or four months, and ended up coming back and bringing a former fighter pilot with her. And he lived with us until Mom and Dad got divorced and then went and lived with Mom, and ended up becoming a very successful businessman here in town. ELY: Mmm. So do you know what organization she was involved with? WATERMAN: I don&#039 ; t. It was, it was--I--I just don&#039 ; t have any idea. I would guess it was the Red Cross, but that&#039 ; s a guess. ELY: Was she in National Council of Jewish Women? WATERMAN: She was, for a while. I remember that, because she had a pen-- ELY: --right. The pen-- WATERMAN: --and I think I still have the pen. ELY: Interesting. So did your parents have certain expectations for you as far as what you would do professionally, or were you expected to stay in Louisville and-- WATERMAN: --no, they really-- ELY: --no-- WATERMAN: --didn&#039 ; t. I don&#039 ; t ever remember that. Um, Mom was out of the picture for a long time after the divorce. So, um, she lived here for a while and then moved to Miami, where she remains today. The--I don&#039 ; t remember that with Dad at all. I mean, Dad just wanted us to--there were some life changes at that point. We were members of Standard Country Club, which of course was the Jewish country club at the time, and we had to leave that. Um, and so it was funny, because I had gone--I had grown up, a lot of the time, at Standard Country Club, not the JCC. We left that, so I ended up back at the JCC right around the times I wa--time I was heading into clubs, AZA [Aleph Zadik Aleph], and so I got very active over there again. Um, even though I was living on the completely other side of town. ELY: Yeah, you&#039 ; ve mentioned Standard. I hadn&#039 ; t really thought about that as being part of the life of someone growing up in-- WATERMAN: --oh-- ELY: --Louisville, but I should have. So-- WATERMAN: --certainly on the--on the-- ELY: --tell me more about the Standard Club. WATERMAN: Well, east end of town, it was the Jewish country club. You know, of course it was founded, um, because the Jews couldn&#039 ; t be members of any other club. And it was a very diverse club. I mean, I can remember, even back in those days, having non-Jews in the, the club. And we all called it the club. I&#039 ; m not sure why, that&#039 ; s like the temple and the club. I suspect because there aren&#039 ; t any others, so that&#039 ; s what it was. The, uh, but that&#039 ; s where we grew up. I mean, you know, you--Mom and Dad would drop me off in the morning during the summers, and I was--had sort of a full rein of the club, to play tennis, to play golf, to swim, and all my buddies were there doing the same thing. Or we&#039 ; d go fishing at the pond, and we all sort of hung out and just ran around each other, and Mom and Dad would--somebody would show up at 4:00 and pick us up. ELY: So Jews and non-Jews at the club? WATERMAN: Ye--mo--I--in those days it was 90 percent Jews-- ELY: --um-hm-- WATERMAN: --but yes. There were non-Jews, and there were people we knew that were non-Jewish. ELY: (whispers) Right. And, uh, then you switched over, you said, to the JCC. WATERMAN: Yeah. After-- ELY: --were there-- WATERMAN: --the divorce, Dad-- ELY: --a lot of youth groups?-- WATERMAN: --what I remember is that Dad said, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t spend that kind of money on the club anymore, so we&#039 ; re gonna go back to the JCC.&quot ; And that--I remember that being difficult because I was not driving yet, and so still getting back--all the way back to the JCC was difficult when, again, the vast majority of the friends, particularly the club members, the AZA clubs, still lived over there. And so I was having trouble getting--you know, and Dad had three other kids behind me, so he couldn&#039 ; t--you know, in those days, there, there were no nannies. There were no--at least, we didn&#039 ; t have one. And, you know, he had to do all the driving. So, um, I had more difficulty staying connected socially. And, and to some extent, that, I think, pulled me away from the JCC after a period of time. I just, you know, couldn&#039 ; t be there, and my friends--so that I was running around with guys in the neighborhood, a couple of whom were Jewish but not the vast majority. So I would say my middle school and high school years were spent mostly with non-Jews. ELY: Um-hm. Well, people remember those clubs with great affection. WATERMAN: Oh, great stuff. ELY: Yeah. So what kinds of things did you do when you were-- WATERMAN: --oh, kissed my-- ELY: --were able to-- WATERMAN: --first girl-- ELY: --attend?-- WATERMAN: --on a--I mean, they, they created a way to date. You know, they, they had--it was like being in a fraternity and a sorority in high school. So they--you--you had gone to cotillion--we all had to do that, um--which was interesting, because it was a--not a Jewish thing, but all the Jews went to it, to this cotillion. And it--and so you learned some manners, but then these--the clubs would organize social events. And back in those days, the ki--we didn&#039 ; t go out with groups. You had a date. And so you very quickly learned how to call somebody on the--call a girl on the phone and ask someone out. And--now, again, Dad had to do the driving, or you got one of the older guys in the club to do the driving. But it--I thought it was wonderful. I got to go to some national conventions. That was my first taste of getting out with other people besides having gone to--to Union Camp, gone to summer camp. ELY: And cotillion. Te--just describe-- WATERMAN: --oh-- ELY: --what cotillion was. WATERMAN: Cotillion is very funny, because it was taught by the Ogdens. And the only reason I remember that is one of my classmates at Ballard was Bobby Ogden ; his parents were the teachers. And it used to be held at the St. Matthew&#039 ; s Women&#039 ; s Club on Lexington R--I think it&#039 ; s Lexington or Grinstead, whatever that road is. And all the Jewish families went there. I mean, you&#039 ; d walk in, it was almost--it was like at almost the synagogue! I think some of &#039 ; em were actually held at the temple at different times once it moved out to the east end. And--but it was not a Jewish thing. There were other people there. And they taught us manners, they taught us to dance, they taught us different kinds of dances. Um, which, you know, came in very handy with bar mitzvahs and things, &#039 ; cause we--there were families having big parties. Again, I don&#039 ; t remember a lot of bands, but I remember what I would--what you&#039 ; d call disc jockeys, and music being played. ELY: So did it culminate in a big dance where everyone-- WATERMAN: --no-- ELY: --used best manners? WATERMAN: Unh-uh. ELY: No? WATERMAN: No. ELY: Just a class. WATERMAN: Just a class, and you went, and we, we, we complained and kvetched about it forever, and we all looked forward to going. ELY: Boys and girls. WATERMAN: Right. ELY: Uh, so then, uh, what was your decision-making process about college? Where did you go? What were you thinking? WATERMAN: Mine was really dumb. (laughs) Um, I was an okay student at Ballard. I wasn&#039 ; t stellar, but I wasn&#039 ; t bad. The--Mom and Dad had pretty well instilled in me, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t stay in state. You need to get out of here.&quot ; Uh, like most of the Jews, I got recruited by fraternities at IU [Indiana University], my senior year, which was part of their process. So we were going up there. I had an older cousin ; Dad&#039 ; s niece was up at IU and in a sorority up there. She was dating some guy, so I got invited to the ADPi House, to a couple other houses for these weekends, where they sort of show off the, the school and the fraternities to, um, seniors in college. I had been playing soccer and had been playing very successfully. Uh, one of my dear friends, Bill Ha--Billy Handmaker, Stuart Handmaker&#039 ; s son, ig--he went to GW. He was a really good student. I mean, he was--and in the advanced program. And I don&#039 ; t know why, for a whim, I applied there. And I also made contact with the coach at George Washington. (laughs) And to my utter surprise, the coach came back and said, &quot ; Yeah, I&#039 ; m really interested in you.&quot ; Um, and so Dad and I--so I had applied to IU, I&#039 ; d applied to St. Louis, I&#039 ; d applied to some other schools, but I was really headed to IU is where I was headed. The--and this coach came back and said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m really--I am interested in you.&quot ; So they had us come up on July F--the July Fourth weekend, &#039 ; cause I remember--I remember meeting with the coach, I remember the--the, um, the soccer field was at the water gate, and the school was at Nineteenth and F, so it was sort of interesting that it finally occurred to me that this is Watergate? You know, that--wait a minute. You know, I thought Watergate was something different, and, um, th--but then they took--they took me and two or three other guys to, uh--down to the Mall to watch the fireworks. And so here we are--I mean, I--I&#039 ; m about as green as they come behind the ears. I&#039 ; m watching fireworks on--on the--on the National Mall, over the Capitol Building with, you know, the National Symphony playing. Um, I was hooked. (laughs) So I immediately--(laughs)--signed every letter I needed to sign to play for George Washington University. So-- ELY: --in what sport? I&#039 ; m sorry-- WATERMAN: --soccer. ELY: Soccer. Okay. WATERMAN: The, um--that turned out to be a debacle. But otherwise that started--I started my education at George Washington ; I ended at the University of Kentucky. ELY: So how long were you at GW? WATERMAN: One semester. ELY: Okay. WATERMAN: Hence the debacle. ELY: Yes, sounds like. Well, I won&#039 ; t ask too many questions about that-- WATERMAN: --no, it was--one, I lost a scholarship because they got somebody better, and two, I just--when I lost scholarship, Dad couldn&#039 ; t afford to send--with me being the first to go, he couldn&#039 ; t afford to send all four of us. And I just didn&#039 ; t like DC, and I really wasn&#039 ; t--it turned out I was on the team because I could get in with my grades, &#039 ; cause I was a good student, and in those days, in 1979, you had to have a certain number of Americans on your team. (laughs) Guess what I was. I was the quota-- ELY: --token American-- WATERMAN: --in reverse. ELY: Ah. So, uh, were you able to play sports again? WATERMAN: I did. I came back and played at UK, played soccer at UK. And it was a plub--a club sport at that point in time. It was not Division I. But had a gre--just--for somebody who was trained, born, and told, &quot ; Never go in state,&quot ; I had a great experience and got a great education. ELY: So d--at college, did you participate in Jewish campus life in-- WATERMAN: --none-- ELY: --anyway? WATERMAN: Not at all. In fact, while I was at GW I pledged to Sigma Chi. And I remember calling my father and saying, &quot ; Dad, I&#039 ; ve been offered a bid to pledge Sigma Chi.&quot ; And Dad said, &quot ; Isn&#039 ; t that the one with the white cross?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Yeah.&quot ; And he goes, &quot ; Isn&#039 ; t that Sons of Christ?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t think so.&quot ; He goes, &quot ; Are there any Jews in this thing?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Well, Chip Sobel--&quot ; who was Homer Sobel&#039 ; s son, from Louisville &quot ; --was my pledge trainer. I said, &quot ; My big brother&#039 ; s Clint--Kim Bloomberg, from Dallas. There&#039 ; s a black guy and an openly gay guy. Um, and I&#039 ; ve got Schwartzes and all kinds of other things.&quot ; And he said, &quot ; Okay.&quot ; So I became a Sigma Chi, not knowing at that point that I was leaving there. And of course I transferred to a southern school, which was way different. Except the moment you got there, the whole house was Jewish. It--for whatever reason, years and years before I ever got there, Bobby Glick and Richard Schultz, from Louisville, pledged Sigma Chi. And there were no Jewish fraternities at Kentucky. And so, j--I assume just through the old locker room type thing, where you grab the next guy coming in, it became the Jewish house. So to this day, there is a, a, an unusually large number of Jewish Sigma Chis coming out of Kentucky. And I&#039 ; ll bet a third of our house was Jewish when I was there--which is just fascinating, since it&#039 ; s a-- ELY: --interesting-- WATERMAN: --big white cross. ELY: So--(laughs)--sorry, I have to cough. Okay. So, uh, there&#039 ; s a high concentration of Jews there. Did you do anything Jewishly together? For instance, did you have-- WATERMAN: --we would do-- ELY: --Hanukkah? WATERMAN: No. We did do--most of us went to synagogue. There were two synagogues in Lexington at the time. There was an Orthodox one, and I remember because the rabbi was blind. And it was just fascinating. I didn&#039 ; t understand it all because it was in Hebrew. And there was a Reform one up closer to campus--um, Rabbi Leffler, maybe, was the rabbi. And so we would go on the High Holy Days there, and we would do those sort of things. But no, we never--if there was a Hillel or those sort of things, we just didn&#039 ; t do them. We were all in the fraternity house. Now, we had a cook at the fraternity house named Gracie Cook. She was known as Baby, called everybody baby, just passed away this year. Uh, and she was a true angel on this earth, to my knowledge--I mean, she had wings somewhere, and I don&#039 ; t know where they were. Um, she was very Baptist, but she was fascinated by religion, and we would sit around in the kitchen with her and talk about the Old and New Testament. And she was very well versed. And when she figured out that Yom Kippur was a fasting day, she refused to serve any of the Jew--even though some of us didn&#039 ; t fast, you were not allowed to eat, and if she caught you eating, she&#039 ; d hit you with a spatula. She--now, she did the same thing with Catholic boys. They were not allowed to eat meat on Friday, and if she caught them, she would whup &#039 ; em with a spatula. And it was just her way, so--and then she would always make sure there was a break-fast meal set aside for us that when the sun went down--she would stay a little later, and when the sun went down, we were allowed to eat. But if she caught you eating after dinner on Erev Yom Kippur--(laughs)--any time she had to either write--if you were--mo--a couple of us did fast. But some of the guys would just go to the student center, go to McDonald&#039 ; s, because she wouldn&#039 ; t serve you. ELY: Interesting. (laughs) WATERMAN: Yeah. (laughs) ELY: So at some point you decided on a career in law? WATERMAN: Eh, I guess. (laughs) The, um--I didn&#039 ; t--you know, I really didn&#039 ; t know what to do. I got a business degree because I didn&#039 ; t--you know, I had three brothers and sisters behind me ; I didn&#039 ; t know if we could affor--I just didn&#039 ; t have any concept of affording law school or not. Uh, got into law school and said, &quot ; What the heck, it&#039 ; s better than working.&quot ; Dad said it was okay, so I went and ended up at the University of Louisville for law school. ELY: Um-hm. And you decided to specialize in family law then, or-- WATERMAN: No, no, no. ELY: No? WATERMAN: I came out of law school in 1983--I&#039 ; m sorry, in &#039 ; 86. I graduated UK in &#039 ; 83, came out of Louisville Law School in &#039 ; 86, and I was bound, damned, and determined to be a courtroom lawyer, business--I was gonna do business defense. Um, clerked my latch--last year for Justice William McAnulty, of blessed memory, and had a wonderful experience. There was a, a horrible, horrible murder case in this town, called--they call it the Trinity murders, where two young men from Trinity were, were kidnapped and murdered, um, in a horrible manner, on their way to the Trinity-Manual football game. And I ended up being Justice--he was Judge McAnulty at the time--his, um, clerk during that. So I was in the room with these two guys. I was around these guys all the time, doing the legal research and back and forth with him on that. So I knew immediately criminal law is not what I wanted to do. And I got hired by Goldberg and Simpson, and, uh, started doing business law and found it horribly boring. Just found it--there was no passion to it, there was no oomph to it, it was, you know, guys fighting over everybody else&#039 ; s money. Um, and then a fraternity brother of mine from Kentucky called and said, &quot ; Mom and Dad are getting divorced, and Dad&#039 ; s a da, da, da, da. Can you help Mom?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; Sure!&quot ; So I went to Rebecca Westerfield, uh, who was na--who, uh, became Judge Westerfield, and Mitch Charney in the firm, and said, &quot ; I got this divorce case. Can I bring it in?&quot ; They said, &quot ; Sure, you can do it, but you gotta do it with us.&quot ; So that was a start. And I just--it hit me that, that I--this is what I could do. This is what I liked. I mean, it was, um--you know, it dealt with human beings. It dealt with helping human beings through the worst time of their life, up to that point--at least for most of &#039 ; em--and it just lit me up. I mean, I don&#039 ; t know any other way to say it. It just caught me. ELY: There are, uh, obviously quite a lot of Jews in the legal profession-- WATERMAN: --um-hm-- ELY: --in Louisville and elsewhere. Did you find that you had any particular mentor or someone that, uh, helped guide your steps? WATERMAN: There were really two. The main one is Fred Goldberg, who&#039 ; s still my mentor to this--to this day. He is ninety. He always tells everybody I&#039 ; m his illegitimate son--(laughs)--and he won&#039 ; t name the, the, the mother. Um, and he, he was as smart a human being as I ever met in my entire life. He had the ability to both--legally, his mind was unbelievable in, in what he could do, and he had what I would call sechel. He could see what was going to happen and predict it and be able to, to move a case that way. Um, turns--and he was a really--a, a pretty strong taskmaster. I mean, there were some not pleasant memories with Fred. I--which, of course, you never--he was &quot ; Mr. Goldberg&quot ; then. Um, as--particularly after I left the firm--I&#039 ; m now back in the firm, after eighteen years, but I was--when I left the firm, he and I continued that friendship. And it really became a friendship at that point. I don&#039 ; t do anything in my life to this day--he&#039 ; s ninety, and I don&#039 ; t do anything of any significance without talking to Fred. We generally have dinner every Sunday. Um, the second person was a fella named David Brill. David is a Jewish fella who was Fred&#039 ; s right-hand person. David has since left the practice of law and went into the furniture business, and made a hell of a lot more money, with a lot less ulcers. Uh, but he also was just a brilliant legal thinker, and so the three of us, with Fred leading, I ended up being the third chair on some of these cases, and, and that&#039 ; s really where I got my training. But I would attribute it to Fred, um, for that. ELY: The legal profession is one of the few where there&#039 ; s a positive stereotype about Jews, I guess. Have you ever encountered stereotypes or anti-Semitism-- WATERMAN: --oh-- ELY: --in your professional life? WATERMAN: --yes. ELY: Okay. (laughs) WATERMAN: Two weeks ago, I got a call from someone who had looked up on the website and wanted a Jewish lawyer. I did not call them back. Um--yes. No, I&#039 ; ve run into--I&#039 ; ve been in cases where somebody&#039 ; ll testify and say, &quot ; Well, I Jewed &#039 ; em down.&quot ; I had a case, uh, where an opposing council, this year, sent a text message to the parenting coordinator and said, &quot ; You need to come out of the attic, hidi--like Anne Frank hiding from the Nazis and make a decent decision.&quot ; That got read into the courtroom aloud yesterday. Um, so it&#039 ; s there. The--so you run into some of that. Now, I would tell you, you would run into some camaraderie amongst all us Jews in the courtroom too. You know? It&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s sort of its own little club, unspoken or unsigned-up club, in and of itself. ELY: Is there any formal organization of Jewish lawyers? WATERMAN: Not that I know of. ELY: You would know if there was, I&#039 ; m sure. WATERMAN: Well, I&#039 ; m--and I&#039 ; m--yeah--and I&#039 ; m a member of the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers, which is a hugely Jewish organization, but it&#039 ; s a national, uh, fellowsh--fellows program of matrimonial lawyers from all over the cou--there&#039 ; s only seventeen hundred of us, and the vast, vast majority are Jewish. ELY: Hmm. WATERMAN: But it is not a per se Jewish organization. ELY: Well, to turn to the, the personal again-- WATERMAN: --sure.-- ELY: --how did you meet your wife? How and when? WATERMAN: Um, Mary and I--Mary and I met in 1983 at law school. She and I were in different sections--the law school gets broken into the initial class. You don&#039 ; t have any choices, and your class gets broken into two pieces. And she and I met in law school. ELY: Hmm. WATERMAN: And went all the way through law school, and five years after that--and she said I had to fish or cut bait. (laughs) And I was perfectly happy fishing, apparently. Um-- ELY: And you have children? WATERMAN: I do. Mary and I got divorced two years ago-- ELY: --um-hm-- WATERMAN: --and she is a phenomenal woman, a--just fabulous. And it was interesting, because she was--she&#039 ; s Catholic, and we raised the children in Judaism, um, and she did not convert. But yes, we have--I have a son, who&#039 ; s the assistant soccer coach at Tufts University. He-- ELY: --oh, I went to Tufts-- WATERMAN: --did you? ELY: Yes. Yes. WATERMAN: He is a Fighting Jumbo, uh, and loves it up--I mean, just loves Jumbo--you&#039 ; re wearing the correct color if you had some brown on. And my daughter is a senior at the University of South Carolina and, unfortunately, is headed to law school. (laughs) Regardless of her mother and I--we don&#039 ; t agree on everything, but we agree that she shouldn&#039 ; t do that, and she is just bound, damned, and determined to go to law school. ELY: Well, what were the conversations like with your wife about raising the children in Judaism as, as you mentioned? WATERMAN: You know, it--we--it was really good. Um, one thing that, that--I mean, she is just--Mary is a--she is the deputy general counsel of Brown-Forman. She is a brilliant--she--besides Fred, she may have the finest legal mind I&#039 ; ve ever seen. Um, and just a phenomenal mother and a great lady all the way around. The, um--and again, I don&#039 ; t know whether we were overly mature or what it was, but we talked a long time, and, and she had--we had conversations about converting, and I said, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t think I need you to convert, but I would really--it really is important to me that the children be raised in Judaism.&quot ; And I felt that was an obligation I had to the Jewish race, family, people, was to, to make sure there were two to replace two, even though there really weren&#039 ; t two. (laughs) Um, and she didn&#039 ; t mind that. We had some conversations, uh, with Rabbi Diamond. We had some conversations with a young guy, and I can&#039 ; t remember his name--he was the priest at the cathedral at the time. He was phenomenal fella. Um, and it--Mary was not happy with her upbringing in Catholicism about if you do something wrong, God&#039 ; s gonna getcha! And, and she knew enough, and we talked about enough about that Judaism wasn&#039 ; t really that--you know, that religion didn&#039 ; t work that way. There&#039 ; s plenty of it in the, the Torah, but that&#039 ; s not how it really worked. And so she thought it was a much more healthy way to raise kids, and our real--our real feeling was that they had to have a belief in God, uh, but we wanted them to have some foundation in religion, and we thought we could teach them what they wanted about Catholicism and then they could choose to do what they wanted to do. ELY: So did you celebrate Jewish holidays and-- WATERMAN: All of them. ELY: Um-hm. WATERMAN: Kids went to Sunday school, celebrated all the Jewish holidays: Hanukkah, Passover, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, um--you know, when the kids were smaller, they would come home with Sukkot, and some of the other minor--Purim. Uh, we always had a big Purim party in our neighborhood, and so we always went to that. The--we did all those. Now, we also celebrated, um, the Christian holidays. We had Easter, and we had Christmas. We always had a Christmas tree, um, and our feeling--my feeling was, and I had long conversations, Mary and I, before we got married, about if she&#039 ; s going to make Rosh Hashanah dinner and learn to do those things, why shouldn&#039 ; t we have a Christmas tree in the home? That was appropriate. It was her holiday. And we ended up putting a group together we called Mixed Doubles. And they were people, like us, that had been married, Christians and Jews, and were generally raising their children one or the other. And so we always did Rosh Hashanah dinner at our house, and we always also did Easter dinner at our house. And this same group, plus family, were always invited, so that you--we did both. Um, and I just--we--that was the way we made it work. Um-- ELY: There are some formal interfaith programs, but it sounds like this was spontaneous. WATERMAN: This was-- ELY: --you just-- WATERMAN: --a lot of Jews in the neighborhood-- ELY: --did it on your own-- WATERMAN: --and a lot of people we just had gotten to know with age-group kids that were intermarried. So we did it, um, and--and it really worked. I mean, I--it was just a great experience, and, and I, now, even though we&#039 ; re divorced, I continue that. We still have the, the interfaith--I still have the, um, mixed group for Rosh Hashanah now. ELY: And do your kids feel themselves to be both, or do they identify as Jews? WATERMAN: I think the kids would tell you they&#039 ; re Jewish. They&#039 ; re--at this point, I would categorize them as nonpracticing. Um, I know they go every other year to synagogue on the High Holy Days, &#039 ; cause I&#039 ; ll get a note, &quot ; Hey, I was in synagogue today,&quot ; da, da, da. I know they&#039 ; re both dating non-Jews, and so I know they celebra--and to this day they celebrate Christmas with their mother, as they should, and they, they generally go to her parents&#039 ; home in Virginia. Um, and I don&#039 ; t think--they may do something on Easter, they may not. I think my son goes with his girlfriend, just because they&#039 ; re both in Boston, but I don&#039 ; t think they go to church. My kids don&#039 ; t go to church, that I know of. They, they celebrate--I would tell you they celebrate Chri--always did celebrate Christmas and Easter in a non--in a, um, nonreligious way. I mean, when--even when we were married and going--we&#039 ; d always go to her parents for Christmas. They would go to church ; we wouldn&#039 ; t. Um, it was a very family-oriented secular type of celebration. I mean, the kids knew what it was, and I thought it was important that they understood it. And we would talk about Catholicism. The kids, as they grew up, would ask, &quot ; What&#039 ; s the difference between Judaism and Catholicism? Why is this? What&#039 ; s this?&quot ; (sniffs) &quot ; How does it work?&quot ; &quot ; Why is Jesus not the Christ or the Savior and why do you--what do you--what does J--how does Judaism look at him?&quot ; So-- ELY: It sounds like a lot of discussions in your family. WATERMAN: It was fun. I me--yeah, I me--and for the most part, it worked really, really well. ELY: Um-hm. Well, let&#039 ; s switch a little bit, talk about Jewish Hospital-- WATERMAN: --okay-- ELY: --um, you mentioned your uncles who were there-- WATERMAN: --yes-- ELY: --can you talk a little bit more about when and how they became involved? WATERMAN: I really don&#039 ; t know much. I know Uncle Norton--I know more about Uncle Norton, who&#039 ; s the younger of them, and, and the only surviving one. He went to Harvard Medical School. He grew up in Greenville. He&#039 ; s part of the side of the family that ended up in Greenville, Mississippi. Came--went to Harvard Medical School and came back to Louisville. Uh, was unmarried at the time and married a woman from--not Peoria--somewhere in, around that area in Illinois. And she converted to Judaism. And I remember them al-Mom and Dad always talking that she was a fanatical Jew because she had converted and was doing everything. Um, and Aunt Judy and Uncle Norton are still--I still see them regularly. But he ended up in a surge--as a surgeon, and became--just ended up chief of surgery at the hospital. Uncle David was a lawyer, his brother, from Greenville, Mississippi, and ended up representing the hospital off and on throughout the years. I don&#039 ; t know much about that. I did find some stuff where he was on the board at that point. ELY: And then you became involved in the hospital governance. WATERMAN: Yeah. Fred Goldberg got me--I watched Fred--Fred had been involved in the board forever. Um, he, in fact, singlehandedly raised--created what&#039 ; s known now as the KentuckyOne Foundation. It was, at that time, the Jewish Hospital Foundation. He singlehandedly, as chair, raised a hundred million dollars for the hospital over a ten-year period. I mean, just unbelievable. And it has a name--has a room named after him. He--I watched that and want--always wanted to get involved with that, really to be like him, not because I knew the family connection at the time. So at one point I pestered him enough that--(laughs)--in order to make me go away, he got me on the board of Four Courts, which was our--which was a Jewish senior home, old-age home, that was owned by the hospital. And so I started off--that&#039 ; s how I started in, in my trip to that. From there went to the foundation, and then from there went to what we called the Big Board at the time. ELY: Um-hm. So the hospital itself went through a huge transition--recently. WATERMAN: Yes. ELY: And were you--did you have a front-row seat for-- WATERMAN: --I was-- ELY: --that? WATERMAN: --chairman of the board. ELY: Right. So can you describe how the idea of the merger came about, and how it practically worked, and-- WATERMAN: The--years before, there was talk--hospitals were starting to struggle, hey--at the heydays of the seventies and eighties, where hospitals were making money hand over fist was clearly coming to an end. Um, the hospital&#039 ; s starting to struggle. We, we had badly--because of the boom, we had overbuilt, so our fixed cost were killer. People were moving out into the suburbs, particularly for medical care, so that the downtown became a pain in the tush for everybody to move around. There was some discussion early on about, you know, we need to do something. We either need to acquire more hospitals, acquire more services. So there was an early talk of merging with Norton Hospital. And that never got out of the boardroom--actually never got out of the two boardrooms. Then years later there was a talk about doing some kind of deal with St. Mary&#039 ; s &amp ; Elizabeth, here in town. And that was owned by CHI, Catholic Health Initiatives. And we did that deal, and ended up being where we--(Ely sighs)--when I say &quot ; we,&quot ; Jewish Hospital--we had 75 percent ownership and St. Mary&#039 ; s &amp ; Elizabeth had 25. And, and it was called Jewish Hospital St. Mary&#039 ; s Elizabeth Hospital. We just jammed the two names together. And that went on for three to four to five years, and we were doing fine. Again, difficult--all the hospitals were suffering. It was really becoming difficult. Uh, reimbursements were going down, the changes were being made, pharmaceuticals going up--all the problems that you know. And it became apparent that we just didn&#039 ; t have the ability to survive. And several people, uh, predominantly LouAnn Atlas, met with Dr. Ramsey, who&#039 ; s president of the University of Louisville, and starting talking about, &quot ; Hey, shouldn&#039 ; t we take Jewish Hospital and put it together with U of L?&quot ; CHI got very interested in that and said, &quot ; Well, wait a minute, why don&#039 ; t we create one big entity?&quot ; Uh, that was during LouAnn&#039 ; s chairmanship of the board. The, the deal was un--we started working the deal. Um, I then became chairman of the board, and so we kept working the deal. There were four of us that were the negotiators from the Jewish Hospital side. It was me, LouAnn, Jerry Temes, and Richard Schultz. And we were negotiating against a group--not against--or with a group from CHI and with a group from the University of Louisville, trying to put this thing together. And of course it went on for months and months. I mean, a huge number of hours. There was a lot of pushback. Um, there was a lot of fear in the Jewish community about losing Jewish Hospital, about lo--it--it--and not as much losing the building, but everybody was very concerned--and I guess the best way to say it, they didn&#039 ; t want the Jewish Hospital, they wanted a Jewish hospital. And, and that&#039 ; s a very different dynamic. Um, there were a lot of pushback, particularly from women in the community, because they viewed the reproductive rights issues, which we were calling the &quot ; ethical religious directives,&quot ; the ERDs, which are part of Catholic Health Initiatives, as a real problem--and, and frankly, so did I. I mean, I, I was raised pretty liberally, and was always a believer that a woman ought to have a right to do whatever she wants with her own body and those sorts of things. The, um--and so there was a lot of pushback. We took the issue--we finally realized--we were trying--we went out on the road, tried to sell it, in the sense of saying, &quot ; Here&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; re doing. Yes, there&#039 ; ll be changes, but--I mean, Jewish Hospital&#039 ; s never done abortions! We can&#039 ; t--you&#039 ; re not allowed to do an abortion in a hospital in this state.&quot ; But that got beyond everything. Um, it, it got way caught up in you--the Catholics are taking over. As you may or may not know, we sent the issue--sent the, the thing to the governor. The governor rejected it. I can remember being called in, in the morning, by chairman of the board, and saying, &quot ; We now know that--&quot ; --hadn&#039 ; t been before it was made public--&quot ; --we now know that, um, the governor&#039 ; s gonna reject this. What do you want to do?&quot ; And David Laird was the CEO of the hospital at the time, and we were talking--I called C--my counterparts in CHI and said, &quot ; You know, why don&#039 ; t we just go forward? There&#039 ; s no reason that this doesn&#039 ; t work with them.&quot ; And so we started down that path. Um, there is a funny story during all that. I had become--I became chairman of the board on July one. LouAnn was out on July--on June thirtieth. ELY: What--what year is this, now? WATERMAN: Oh, gosh. It&#039 ; s been five years, so it had to be right around 2010 or &#039 ; 11. ELY: Mmm. WATERMAN: The--and so July fourth was a weekend that year. And so the Friday before July--(laughs)--fourth, I get a call from a guy named Jeff Polson, who&#039 ; s now the--the CEO or president of--executive director--of Jewish Heritage Funds. He says, &quot ; I need to see you.&quot ; And I had been chairman of the board a day or two. I said, &quot ; Jeff, I&#039 ; m in the middle of something.&quot ; He go, &quot ; No, I need to see you now.&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; Okay.&quot ; So I dropped my stuff, get in David Laird&#039 ; s office. Said, &quot ; We have a small problem.&quot ; I said, &quot ; Oh?&quot ; He said, &quot ; Yeah. Tomorrow, all weekend, in the paper,&quot ; and he throws this thing out, and it says, &quot ; If you are opposed to the merger between Jewish Hospital and CHI, call Louis I. Waterman,&quot ; and they put my phone number down, &quot ; and David Laird,&quot ; and put his phone number down. And it was in--in the--in the watermark was all these women who were suppor--who had paid for this ad. Okay? And so first thing I&#039 ; m looking to see if my wife&#039 ; s on it, &#039 ; cause she was very opposed to it. I thought, &quot ; Oh my God.&quot ; I&#039 ; m looking to see if--I go down to the Ws to see if there&#039 ; s any Watermans listed. And so I have to now call my wife and say, (clears throat) &quot ; Over the next couple of days--&quot ; and they gave our emails as well. So, um, but--(laughs)--we worked through that. The--but then--so we started putting that together--and ultimately got that done. And as you know, we came back, and then Bob Hewett became--of the new entity, I became chairman of Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence, which was an entity spun out of that ; I was put on the board of KentuckyOne ; and Bob Hewett, from the CHI side, became the chairman of the board of KentuckyOne. And then we came back and did a joint operating agreement with U of L. ELY: Now, the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence spun off of this merger with millions of dollars of philanthropic-- WATERMAN: --seventy million dollars-- ELY: --money? Was that the old Jewish Hospital Foundation? WATERMAN: No. ELY: Okay. WATERMAN: And that&#039 ; s very, very important because there was a lot of brouhaha. David Klein, of blessed memory, who was a dear, dear friend, and his family, the Klein family, had given an enormous amount of money over the years. They were the original Bank of Louisville owners. Had--had given an enormous amount of money to the Jewish--to Jewish Hospital Foundation, which became the Jewish Hospital St. Mary&#039 ; s Foundation. And they were very upset because they believed that we had taken that money out of Jewish Hospital and created this entity. That was not true at all. That money, to this day, sits inside KentuckyOne. The part of the deal-- ELY: --and it&#039 ; s part of the endowment for-- WATERMAN: --it is part of--what--it was Jewish Hospital St. Mary&#039 ; s Foundation. It&#039 ; s now called the KentuckyOne Foundation. But it&#039 ; s exactly the same dollars. ELY: Okay. WATERMAN: I have a scholarship there that I give to. The, um--CHI paid seventy million dollars to Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence, so that you--what you had--you had Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence became a parent company of KentuckyOne. CHI was the other parent company, both owners of KentuckyOne, in different percentages. We have seventy million dollars in that, and there&#039 ; s very re--various reserved rights that the parents control on KentuckyOne, should anything ever happen. Um, so no, it was a brand new set of money from C--from CHI. ELY: Okay. And then you became involved-- WATERMAN: --then I became-- ELY: --with that. WATERMAN: --chairman of that board, yes. ELY: And just, uh, ex officio in KentuckyOne, or-- WATERMAN: No, at that-- ELY: --no?-- WATERMAN: --point we--at that point, when they did--again, things have changed over the five years it&#039 ; s been in place, but at that point the chair of Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence was a sitting member of the KentuckyOne board, as was the chair of CHI. ELY: I see. WATERMAN: So the--because they were the parent, both had a sitting, voting position. ELY: So what was the process of deciding on the goals and guidelines for the Heritage Fund? Who was involved in those discussions? WATERMAN: The, the previous entity, called the Jewish Hospital Board, created a--the Jewish Hospital entity created a board when they knew this was coming, and that was gonna be part of that group. And that&#039 ; s the group that created--that--they, they, they took a group and picked who they wanted in the community to be on what was gonna be the Jewish Heritage Boa--Jewish Heritage Board, JHFE. Then we started meeting, and it was--I mean, I--I will tell you one of the more difficult things that I did, &#039 ; cause I didn&#039 ; t know what to do! We just started from scratch. We had no executive director. Um, we had no nothing. We had a boatload of money. And so we brought in a person to help us do some strategic planning. And it, it literally just sort of rolled that way with a bunch of us, a lot of fights, a lot of tears, a lot of hard feelings at times as we pushed through, trying to figure out what we were gonna do. The money came to us--we knew that the only requirement we had on the money was that primarily it had to go to medical research. That&#039 ; s all, that&#039 ; s the only directive we had. One of the things I laid in, and, and--which still, to my knowledge, is the mark that I was able to leave, is that research money ha--i--has, has to be spent inside Jewish Hospital. Now, it doesn&#039 ; t say that. There&#039 ; s nothing that says it does. But we wanted it--we wanted the, um, research to be translational, meaning I don&#039 ; t want to do bench research, I want something that&#039 ; s gonna go right into the bedside. And David Kaplan, who I made chair of the grants committee, the first grants committee, I just said, &quot ; Look, make this work. And I want everything inside Jewish Hospital. I want to pump up that hospital, because I want it to survive, no matter what.&quot ; And so to this day all of the research money that goes there, which is considerable, is going to researchers doing work inside Jewish Hospital. Uh, and then the other 49 percent goes to Jewish causes throughout the Commonwealth of Kentucky. ELY: So, um, then were guidelines set up for the Jewish causes for whether--what sorts of entities could participate? WATERMAN: Um-hm. We did. We, we, um--you know, it&#039 ; s funny, because the medical part was easy. It was function of--I mean, we had to get experts to help us, &#039 ; cause that&#039 ; s what we didn&#039 ; t know. The Jewish causes, as you can imagine, with a bunch of Jews in the room, we couldn&#039 ; t agree--I mean, you have four Jews in the room, you have six opinions. So--and we couldn&#039 ; t agree that today is Wednesday. There was a lot of gnashing of teeth, you know, are we gonna do bricks and mortar, are we gonna do--buy prayer books--what are we gonna do? When we started off, we were gonna do nothing. I said--I sort of said, &quot ; Stop. Don&#039 ; t do anything.&quot ; And I got a lot of feedback, particularly from the Jewish community, saying, &quot ; Wait a minute. We&#039 ; ve been counting on this money from Jewish Hospital for all these years ; you can&#039 ; t just stop the flow!&quot ; And, uh, I went and saw Joe Rabb--Rabbi Joe, -----------(??), and said, &quot ; I need some help here.&quot ; &#039 ; Cause the interesting thing here was I had not been involved in the Jewish community much at all, philanthropically--meaning I&#039 ; d given, -----------(??)----------, but I didn&#039 ; t do anything. I was never part of the foun--federation, never did any of that. And so my knowledge of the Jewish--how the JCC worked, all that was nil. I&#039 ; d been very involved in the hospital. I knew a lot about that piece of it. Uh, other than giving a check every year to the federation, I didn&#039 ; t know anything. David Kaplan and Sandy Hammond did. They knew an enormous amount. So I got--made--got Sandy to be the vice chair and David to be the grants--(laughs)--chair. That--you know, I guess I was smart enough to know what I didn&#039 ; t know. And so then we started down--so what we did is we did a quick analysis of what is it that&#039 ; s survival? I don&#039 ; t want any kids to miss camp. I don&#039 ; t want people to miss some meals. I don&#039 ; t want the, the community Passover to be stopped. I don&#039 ; t want--what were we doing that is survival level? And for the next twelve months, do that. But we&#039 ; re not gonna give away--you know, we&#039 ; re not giving away big money till we figure out what we&#039 ; re doing. And that&#039 ; s what we did. So we made sure that, you know, that we had some old f--um, senior citizen programs going. We had some scholarships to camp. We had, um, some Sunday school scho--Hebrew high school scholarships. We had, uh, community Passover. We had Meals on Wheels. So we did the things, um, that made sure that those things kept going. And then we went to start to develop, What are we gonna do? I mean, we talked about should it be just in Louisville? And we had done a lot with U of L. Can we do something with Kentucky? And Mike Ades, my friend who&#039 ; s on the KentuckyOne board as a CHI appointee, is Jewish, an Orthodox Jew from Lexington. Got him involved because I knew nothing about the Lexington Federation or anything they had done, and he got me connected up there. And then of course, in comes Eli Capilouto, who is Jewish. Um, and so we get involved with him. I call him, and I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m just--I&#039 ; m sort of obnoxious, I g--about it, I guess. I called and got an appointment, went up and visited him, and we hit it off and started down the path of doing some things up in Kentucky. ELY: Um-hm. WATERMAN: Um, and he&#039 ; s been to Louisville and helped us a great deal. And so now we&#039 ; re trying to expand. The vast majority of our work has been Louisville and Lexington, although there was--we did a project in Bowling Green. There&#039 ; s a very small community or group of Jews in Bowling Green that, I don&#039 ; t remember what the exact grant was, but there was something there. So that was the idea. And it&#039 ; s still--it&#039 ; s still, to some extent, um, being formulated. Meaning, do we give--do we say we&#039 ; re gonna give a million dollars over ten years? Do we give this? Of course, the other big one was acquiring the Standard Country Club. And so what are we gonna do with that sort of thing as well? ELY: Is that something you were personally interested in because you had a history with it? WATERMAN: You know, it didn&#039 ; t strike me--I knew that the club was in trouble. It had a note that was being called. Uh, we were able to acquire it, and we still, to this day, the Jewish Heritage Fund owns it. What to do with it is perhaps the most difficult thing I&#039 ; ve ever done in my life. Um, I would tell you gi--I, I thought it would be a great idea, and I committed, after my chairmanship, to run the committee that would try to figure out what to do with that, because I thought it was so historically significant and such a gem for the Jewish community. So we went to every Jewish entity in town and said, &quot ; Give us a member, and we will start having meetings. Every synagogue, give us two, and we will start having meetings and talking about what to do with it.&quot ; It was the largest debacle, most frustrating--now, to date, the most frustrating thing I&#039 ; ve ever done. Um, it was the--the worries I have about Jewish Louisville and their sense of, um, protecting their own turf, I am very concerned that, that we cannot all get along well enough to get those--I mean, we could not get everybody to agree to do anything with that place, and here you have 142nd--forty-seven--pristine acres with a pool, a fishing facility, an eight--nine- to eighteen-hole golf course, a clubhouse, tennis courts, sand and regular, and we can&#039 ; t get the Jewish community to agree what to do with it. ELY: That&#039 ; s a-- WATERMAN: Oh, it&#039 ; s horrible. ELY: Yeah. WATERMAN: It&#039 ; s absolutely horrible. And it&#039 ; s--the, the, the, um--and I get real angry about it, because it&#039 ; s just the--the, uh, lack of vision and lack of, I don&#039 ; t wanna give up my turf ; you might be affecting me. You know, the, the Reform Jews don&#039 ; t want Adath Jeshurun to have a foothold on their side of town. Adath Jeshurun doesn&#039 ; t want to--they&#039 ; d love to get on our side of town. Jewish Community Center doesn&#039 ; t want to move from Dutchmans Lane, they want to stay there. It--it&#039 ; s just horrible. It&#039 ; s absolutely horrible. You know, and you&#039 ; ve got an Orthodox synagogue that&#039 ; s failing and about to be sold, and they want to go anywhere--you know, now, it&#039 ; s a little difficult &#039 ; cause they can&#039 ; t drive. Or they--they can&#039 ; t--they&#039 ; re not--they don&#039 ; t drive on the--on Shabbat. So how do we help them to--it&#039 ; s just atrocious. It&#039 ; s absolutely an abomination in this community, how bad we don&#039 ; t get along when it&#039 ; s just us. ELY: There&#039 ; s a planning process, I believe, a kind of joint planning process. But you&#039 ; re saying it doesn&#039 ; t really work well? WATERMAN: I ran it for eighteen months. We&#039 ; ve got a plan, and that&#039 ; s as far as it got. Nobody else would agree. I, I, I just disbanded the group--with permission of the Jewish Heritage Fund-- ELY: --um-hm-- WATERMAN: --because they were so against each other, so uncommitted to working together, so lacking in vision, and we took it back inside, and the Jewish Heritage Fund says, &quot ; We&#039 ; re just gonna do something with it.&quot ; And, and, again, if I--if we sell that off for development, we will make an enormous amount of money. &#039 ; Cause we got it for a song. And I would view that as a--my--that to my date as my greatest failure to this Jewish community is I couldn&#039 ; t get that done. ELY: Mm. WATERMAN: And I want to tell you, I screamed, hollered at people, begged people, cried with people, um, kvetched to every rabbi I could get, tried to cohort them, tried to pay politics, tried to threaten them. I mean, I did--I threatened the Jewish Community Center and said, &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m gonna make sure Jewish Heritage Fund doesn&#039 ; t give you another cent if you don&#039 ; t do this.&quot ; Now, the--Jewish Heritage Fund wouldn&#039 ; t do that, but--I mean, that&#039 ; s how--it, it was so unbelievable to me that we don&#039 ; t have the ability as a community to come together with a vision for something as wonderful as that, to make a win-win for everybody. It was just unbelievably frustrating. ELY: It&#039 ; s certainly a time of change. A lot of institutions, um, merging, going away, and yet into this what could be seen as a dying community comes this-- WATERMAN: --so says the Pew Study.-- ELY: --infusion of, of, uh, of potential with the Jewish Heritage Fund-- WATERMAN: --right-- ELY: -- for Excellence. So-- WATERMAN: --we had this beautiful thing-- ELY: --it&#039 ; s such an opportunity-- WATERMAN: --right-- ELY: -- to make a change. WATERMAN: And the Pew Study says our community is dying, our Jewish community is dying, all over the country. And here we have an opportunity, and we can&#039 ; t even agree amongst the factions in the community what to do. ELY: Well, it&#039 ; s--to-- WATERMAN: --we get what we deserve-- ELY: --to go to a more positive note, what are you really proud of that you&#039 ; ve been able to accomplish? WATERMAN: The, the fact that the Jewish--I would tell you that w--I&#039 ; m very proud that I had a small piece in making sure Jewish Hospital to this day is a Jewish hospital. We have a head rabbi now. That was a fight. Um, we&#039 ; re working very hard to bring the Jewish community back into that hospital. Rabbi Nadia is working incredibly hard to do that. Um, I&#039 ; m very proud of the Jewish Heritage Fund, that it&#039 ; s up and running, that I got to do it first, uh, that, that we&#039 ; re--that we&#039 ; re--I mean, we are the eight hundred-pound gorilla in the community now. And it&#039 ; s funny, because the federation isn&#039 ; t. When you&#039 ; re sitting on a hundred million dollars, all of a sudden you&#039 ; re the big dog in town. And I think we&#039 ; ve set up a foundation for it to really do some good, both in terms of medical research at Jewish Hospital, which is what it was known for, and for the Jewish community. Carol, I think it&#039 ; s critical that we--that, that, that--I mean, we use these funds to grow this Jewish community or to keep it alive and to keep it vibrant and to keep it in leadership and to keep it, um, uh, interdi--not interdisciplinary--you know, interfaith. That we, we be part of all that. And these dollars will allow us to do that. I&#039 ; m hoping, uh, that, that the Jewish Heritage Fund, as it grows, as it passes to the next generation, will continue to have a vision--of big growth. Don&#039 ; t just buy prayer books. Do something monstrous. Do, do, you know, something that, that will forever affect lives. Do something that will bring Jewish young people back to this community and say, &quot ; God, I want to live there!&quot ; That&#039 ; s what I hope we&#039 ; re gonna do. And I&#039 ; m--I gotta tell ya, I&#039 ; m pretty hopeful, at the moment. I mean, I think we&#039 ; re on the right path, and I think it&#039 ; s got some great leadership. ELY: Great. Is there anything I haven&#039 ; t asked you that you&#039 ; d like to talk about, or anything that-- WATERMAN: --no-- ELY: --you want to put on the record? WATERMAN: No. It&#039 ; s been--it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s been a fascinating fifty-five years. It&#039 ; s, uh--I think Jewish Louisville&#039 ; s a really neat place. Um, hence there&#039 ; s books written about it. ELY: Hmm. WATERMAN: Um, the--and I think it will always thrive in some level, uh, if we pay attention. I thi--you know, it&#039 ; s like the &quot ; Never forget.&quot ; You got to keep pushing it, making sure, uh--interfaith marriage is a--is a reality, but we have to make it--we have to make it welcoming, we have to make it open so that the kids want to be there that do these things. It&#039 ; s my understanding the clubs are a big rave--rage--all of a sudden now again, that everybody wants to do that again. Um, and that they&#039 ; re, like, filled with the gills over the Jewish Community Center, which I think is phenomenal. Um, but I, I think we&#039 ; re on a good trajectory, you know, for a, for a small, quasi-Southern town that thinks it&#039 ; s a city--(Ely laughs)--um, I think we do okay. But I do think it has to be watched, and I&#039 ; m--but I&#039 ; m hopeful. ELY: Okay. Well, thank you very much. WATERMAN: Thank you! ELY: Enjoyed talking to you. WATERMAN: What a great time. [End of interview.] All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. video Interviews may only be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries. 0 http://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh400_jk035_waterman_ohm.xml 2016oh400_jk035_waterman_ohm.xml https://kentuckyoralhistory.org/ark:/16417/xt7w6m33529z OHMS Object https://www.nunncenter.net/ohms/render.php?cachefile=2016oh400_jk035_waterman_ohm.xml Interview Rights All rights to the interviews, including but not restricted to legal title, copyrights and literary property rights, have been transferred to the University of Kentucky Libraries. Interview Usage Interviews may be reproduced with permission from Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, Special Collections, University of Kentucky Libraries. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Louis Waterman, September 14, 2016 Description An account of the resource Louis Waterman describes his childhood in Louisville, including his parents and siblings, his education, and his Judaism both in his social life and religious practices. He talks about his college experiences, law school, and his career as a lawyer. He talks about his administrative work for Jewish Hospital in Louisville, his work with the Jewish Heritage Fund, and his actions regarding the Standard Country Club's financial situation. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2016oh400_jk035 Subject The topic of the resource Genealogy Holidays--Kentucky Families. Religion Education Jewish leadership--Kentucky--Louisville Louisville (Ky.) Jewish children--Kentucky--Louisville Jews--Identity. Jews--Kentucky--Louisville. Louisville (Ky.)--Social life and customs College environment College students--Social conditions University of Kentucky College students--Religious life Lawyers--Kentucky--Louisville Hospitals--Administration Hospitals--Kentucky Jewish businesspeople Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video